# Can DTG be a substitute for screen printing



## bergenandco (Jul 30, 2007)

I've done some research but nothing to solid in regards to my question.

Would DTG be a reasonable substitute for screen printing? Where I work we send out all screen printing to three local companies - we do embriodery in house. Would it be possible to buy the Brother DTG machine and expect it to handle several hundred shirts a month? Is the image simular to screening?

Thanks.


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## Rodney (Nov 3, 2004)

> Would DTG be a reasonable substitute for screen printing?


No



> Would it be possible to buy the Brother DTG machine and expect it to handle several hundred shirts a month?


The Brother DTG machine only prints on white and light colored garments. Not sure on its output capacity.


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## csquared (Sep 8, 2006)

At this time DTG cannot be considered a full substitute for screen printing but it is an alternative for certain types of orders where screen printing is not cost effective. It really shines in short runs and one offs so if this is your type of business than DTG might be for you. 

Yes the brother can handle a couple hundred shirts a month but like adding any other machine to your shop it requires daily maintenance and training so if you find yourself already short on time it might not be a good idea to get a DTG printer. 

That being said DTG caters well to the embroidery shop that wants to keep small t-shirt orders in house, you could even find yourself expanding your business in ways that would not have been cost effective before.


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## bergenandco (Jul 30, 2007)

Thanks for the feed back! It sounds like we are best to stay with the heat apply for short runs and 1offs....


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## mikew (Jun 24, 2007)

In the last 2 days we've done close to 150 shirts (different designs)on our Brother. It is more than capable of doing several hundred a month. How else are you gonna pay for it without cranking them out!!


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## Robin (Aug 28, 2006)

As far as training, and daily maintenance for the Brother, its minimal. We were trained in about 30min....then spent the next few days playing, and getting to know the machine.


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## csquared (Sep 8, 2006)

I was thinking of training more on the software level as a lot of embroiderers have not used programs like photoshop and working with the color variants from monitor to shirt.


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## Robin (Aug 28, 2006)

the brother prints from any program. So there isnt any software to learn.

The brother works like a desktop printer....when your image is ready(in what ever program you designed it in), you go to file, go to print, choose your printer (brother) and click print. Its really that simple.


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## Aye Poppin (Apr 30, 2007)

I just did a 12 shirt run front and back-took me 2 hours. One color front-one color black. Not very efficient. Still learing myself though. i run a DTG-kiosk no white!


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## csquared (Sep 8, 2006)

Robin the brother along with most other DTGs can be run from any design program but for someone who might have never used any design programs their could be a little learning curve.


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## mikew (Jun 24, 2007)

No matter what form your shirt printing takes, heat transfer, dye sub, screen printing or DTG you have to learn your design software. Then you have to learn how to use your equipment. And Robin's point is that the Brother requires a very small learning curve. 
That is one of the reasons we (Robin is my wife) chose DTG rather than screen printing or dye sub. We know our design software (sort of!!) and didn't want to spend many hours learning how to use the equipment also. The Brother fit that requirement perfectly.


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## Robin (Aug 28, 2006)

> I just did a 12 shirt run front and back-took me 2 hours. One color front-one color black. Not very efficient. Still learing myself though. i run a DTG-kiosk no white!


 Yes 12 shirts in 2 hrs is slow going. I made a point to time myself for this last job on our brother. 63 shirts with 3 placements (front, back, lower left corner) took 4 hours. That was 3 seperate printings, and 3 seperate pressings for each shirt.



> Robin the brother along with most other DTGs can be run from any design program but for someone who might have never used any design programs their could be a little learning curve.


you've got that right. Im still learning our software! But as far as design software specifically for the brother to learn....there isnt any.


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## Gunslinger (Aug 3, 2007)

We have had the T-Jet 3 for 4 months. Our first big order was for 200 black tees, and despite ALL the learning curves, white ink probs, and pretreatment issues ... the job was completed within the two week deadline (now, it would be an easy 5 day job). Learning curves are part of ANY process. Hell, I can't even imagine trying to add traditional screen printing to my business model ... all the screens, all the seperations, all the stations and clean up ... ugh.

Quite simply, if I didn't think we could hold our own against traditional screen printing, I would not have started with DTG and surely wouldn't be opening up for the demands of retail.


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## mikew (Jun 24, 2007)

Gunslinger would you mind briefly outlining the white ink process? Five days to do 200 shirts must involve alot of drying time and waiting between steps. 
Thanks!


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## Gunslinger (Aug 3, 2007)

Sure Mike,

Now this is for a T-jet 3, so I don't know how the different machines stack up with print times ...

I average 6 shirts an hour for darks, here's why:

First, I shake and press each shirt at 335 degrees with medium-heavy pressure for 5-10 seconds depending on the wrinkles. Then, I spray the shirt with water 1 second pass, followed by three 1 second passes with the pretreatment. Then, I use a paint roller over the shirt to insure a nice even coverage, and let the shirt rest for 45-60 seconds to allow the shirt fibers to really absorb the pretreatment. Over to the press, I lay a sheet or two of non-silicon parchment paper over the shirt and press with very, very light pressure for 10-15 seconds, then another 10-15 without the paper (if still steamy a bit, I tap several times until dry).

Next, I print an underbase (usually 1440 dpi) that takes about 3 minutes, and one color pass (usually 720) that takes about a minute.

Next, back over to the press ... I lay a sheet of silicon parchment paper over the shirt, and press at 335 degrees with very, very light pressure for 3 minutes. Done.

Between the overlaps of a long run, and machine errors or head cleanings, I can average several more or less. For instance, during that 200 run, all kinds of problems occured that aren't a problem any longer. One day (your basic 8 hours), I did 38 shirts, another I did 42, another was 48. And all that includes tagging and folding, so really, IF all I did were dark shirts at a single machine capacity ... 800 shirts a month, ain't bad.

Hope that helps,


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## AustinJeff (May 12, 2007)

Gunslinger said:


> And all that includes tagging and folding, so really, IF all I did were dark shirts at a single machine capacity ... 800 shirts a month, ain't bad.


Sure, but what percentage of your time spent on business is taken up by production and packaging? For me, it's about 50 percent. The other half is taken up with marketing, design, accounting, etc. If I spent 8 hours a day on production, I would have to work 16 hour days to keep up.


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## treadhead (Jul 26, 2006)

Aye Poppin said:


> I just did a 12 shirt run front and back-took me 2 hours. One color front-one color black. Not very efficient. Still learing myself though. i run a DTG-kiosk no white!


That's about the same productivity I get with my T Jet II when not using white.

They are great....just not for large orders. At 6 shirts per hour (complete)...you are looking at maybe 50 shirts per day.


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## rrc62 (Jun 2, 2007)

Gunslinger said:


> Sure Mike,
> 
> Now this is for a T-jet 3, so I don't know how the different machines stack up with print times ...
> 
> ...


This sounds labor intensive. What is the advantage to DTG over something like dyesub or Chromablast and heat transfer? I had considered DTG, but the equipment costs and print speed turned me off.

Would printing to white shirts with DTG be a simpler, less time consuming process?


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## debz1959 (Jul 29, 2007)

Jeff...

I do all of the marketing and accounting and I also help with design; my husband, Gunslinger, does design and production. We both do the packaging. If it gets to the point that it's too much for it, we'll hire staff. 

If you're making, and selling, at least 800 shirts a month, you can afford it...


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## mikew (Jun 24, 2007)

rrc62 said:


> This sounds labor intensive. What is the advantage to DTG over something like dyesub or Chromablast and heat transfer? I had considered DTG, but the equipment costs and print speed turned me off.
> 
> Would printing to white shirts with DTG be a simpler, less time consuming process?


Ross, printing to white shirts would be much easier. We did a run last week , on our Brother, that averaged 47 shirts an hour. That includes printing and pressing.

Gunslinger, thanks for the run down. That's way too much work...LOL! I'd rather spend time talking them into full color on white shirts.


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## Gunslinger (Aug 3, 2007)

Ross ... Debz is just getting into the dyesub, so walk-ins can get a quick print. Dye Sub is very cheap, and also developing very fast with a far smaller foot print. I honestly couldn't tell you until we have done more testing, we are looking at the new papers and dye sub printers that have recently expanded to other fabrics (than the polyesters) and dark colored shirts. We chose DTG over traditional screen printing, and at that time, I wasn't happy with the limitations of dye sub. It will be interesting to see how dye sub develops. So far, in our testing from the samples giving from the Long Beach show, heat transfers basically suck ... but, we will continua to test them from other manufacturers.

Mike ... LOL, yeah it is too much, and thankfully, I haven't had another large order for darks. And it isn't hard talking folks into lights ... if you look at our pricing, it's usually a no brainer for them. The problem with that 200 black shirt run was it was for a local rock station during our annual motorcycle event ... so, for them and the target audience, it just HAD to be black.

From what I gather from those that have been in DTG longer than I, particularly in retail, they stick with the whites ... and I absolutely understand. But, for me, that would be boring ... and allows me to stand out a bit. LOL, but hopefully, folks will buy more lights than darks.


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## Printzilla (Mar 22, 2007)

We have not used our dye sub equipment on shirts for almost 3 years. It looks awesome on the softlink style T's, but at 4 bux a pop just for the shirt and another buck + for ink and paper, it did not take long for us to recoup our investment on a DTG. And DTG is much faster in my opinion on white shirts, once you factor in prepping the softlinks so that you do not get the blue "wonder" fibers after pressing.

The new dyesub systems that can go onto poly cotton blends, or just cotton look nice, but not as nice as DTG, and they also have a harsher hand the DTG or Dyesub on poly.


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## Gunslinger (Aug 3, 2007)

Good points, Marc ...

Debz talked to one vendor that mentioned the dye sub prints won't hold up after 10-15 washes, but it'll be weeks until I see that for the shirt I have here. Debz likes the soft hand AFTER it is washes, she thinks it holds up to DTG ... I don't agree, but I m VERY picky with it all.


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## Printzilla (Mar 22, 2007)

Actually pure dye sub to a poly substrate holds up better than any other process. The ink actually becomes part of the shirt through a chemical process brought on by the heat and pressure. 

I have shirts that are dye sub on a softlink, that have been washed over 100x that the ink is in way better shape than the shirt itself. Whatever the vendor was saying would wash out in 10 -15 washings was not true dye sub, but maybe a dyesub for cotton like duracotton.


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## Gunslinger (Aug 3, 2007)

Yes, it was cotton ... (going into the next room to look at the tee) ... it's ChromaBlast that he was refering to.


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## Printzilla (Mar 22, 2007)

I agree that cotton based dye sub does not old up as well as dtg.


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## treadhead (Jul 26, 2006)

mikew said:


> Ross, printing to white shirts would be much easier. We did a run last week , on our Brother, that averaged 47 shirts an hour. That includes printing and pressing.


Mike...those are some nice numbers. Is the Brother that much faster than the T Jet II on whites??

I just finished a run of white shirts with a 10" x 10" back design and a pocket design and averaged about 6 shirts per hour when all was said and done. 

I was doing 1440 dpi double pass for both designs. Granted I probably could have gotten by with 720 dpi but the color was much better with the yellows and purples in 1440 dpi. The back took about 10 minutes total (5 minutes for each pass) and the front about 2 minutes for each shirt. Now, even if I did run at 720 or even 360 dpi, I would not have approached anywhere near 47 shirts per hour when the press time itself takes 90 seconds for each shirt...not including the time to load and unload the printer / press.

Where you running two presses?


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## Printzilla (Mar 22, 2007)

John - I run about 25 10 x 10's an hour double pass on my tjet. I have never needed 1440, as a matter of fact most of mine run at 720 enhanced. Are you using the epson driver, or a RIP?

Why 90 seconds press time? That seems very long to me.


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## dheer1um (Jan 14, 2007)

Printzilla said:


> I agree that cotton based dye sub does not old up as well as dtg.


What about dye sub for dark polyesters?


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## Printzilla (Mar 22, 2007)

No such product has been officially released. There are three that I know of that have been in testing for anywhere between 6 months and 6 YEARS. The issue as usual is getting the white underbase to lay down properly, and retain good wash fastness.


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## tomtv (Feb 6, 2007)

In our experience the chromablast holds up real well and does a fine job but the trade off for an inexpensive solution is the higher ink prices. It is unfortunate but it does offer a nice entry level buy in for someone wanting to test their market or for part time decorators.

I agree zilla, the dye sub shirts never really dye the threads just wear out 

tom


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## mikew (Jun 24, 2007)

treadhead said:


> Mike...those are some nice numbers. Is the Brother that much faster than the T Jet II on whites??
> 
> I just finished a run of white shirts with a 10" x 10" back design and a pocket design and averaged about 6 shirts per hour when all was said and done.
> 
> ...


No, we are running 1 press. Although my wife would like to buy one with a bigger platen. More $$$ 
We ran a 14" x 16" design with full coverage and that took about 1 minute and 10 seconds to print. Everything gets pressed for 30 seconds. So those shirts probably took about 2 minutes each. 
We haven't found the need to do double passes on anything yet. We can increase the ink output but 99% of what we've done has been at the lowest setting.
From the numbers you gave I'd say the Brother is much faster and I'm sure the quality of the print is as good or better.


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## Robin (Aug 28, 2006)

> Although my wife would like to buy one with a bigger platen.


yes I would 

I was just telling my husband, we run all kinds of machines, and software, but I dont know how to get the video from my camera to the computer. So if anyone knows how to do that, let me know, and we will video the machine in action.


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## Rodney (Nov 3, 2004)

> but I dont know how to get the video from my camera to the computer. So if anyone knows how to do that, let me know, and we will video the machine in action.


What kind of video camera do you have? I'm sure one of us here could help you figure it out. Some cameras make it easier than others.


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## Gunslinger (Aug 3, 2007)

I know I want an extra press. It would allow me to streamline a better with darks. I could pretreat shirts while a dark shirt is printing, while another is curing. The standing around for a minute or two is really annoying, lol.

Does your video camera use an SD card or USB port? That's how I transfer all my media.


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## Robin (Aug 28, 2006)

I should have mentioned it was the video camera in my phone.(I was thinking it but it didnt get typed) Its a motorola razar phone.......video works great. But I havent a clue how to get it off my phone.

I can also take video with my nikon coolpix, camera, but it cannot video as long as the phone can.


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## Gunslinger (Aug 3, 2007)

I have the same phone, Robin. It uses a removable micro SD card to store and retrieve your media, as well as, a mini USB port. Do you have a card or cable?


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## Deborah Sexton (Jan 16, 2007)

Hi 

I am a freelance journalist who has written lots of articles about direct to garment printing. I recently interviewed Mark Francis, *www.just1shirt.com*. Mark outputs 150 to 200 T-shirts a day on two T-Jet 2 units. He has found it to be a very viable alternative to screen printing for certain types of jobs. So the answer to your question is: It depends. What kind of jobs do you want to do on it? Short run on light colors, it does not have the same feel as screen printing, it is softer, and you can do four color process a lot faster and easier than screen printing but if you want to do dark, it does a lot longer to do. 

A profile on Mark's shop, Creative Concepts of Jonesboro, will up on the U.S. Screen Printing's Web site in about a week or so if you want to read about a screen printer/embroiderer who has successfully added direct to garment digital technology.

My advice is to pick a typical design you want to be printing. Sent it to several of the DTG suppliers and get them to print out a sample for you on their printer. Evaluate it and ask yourself, would my customer find this acceptable? If the answer is "yes" then you may have to investigate the technology. You also can find DTG machine owners who probably will do your shirts contract for you until you decide if you want to go that route or not. Mark Francis is one example of a DTG owner who will do contract. 

I wrote a five part series on DTG technology for IMPRESSIONS Magazine. I don't know if they have it archived or not. It ran as part of High Volume Decorator, which was an e-zine. Contact IMP to see if you can access it online. 


Deborah Sexton


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## treadhead (Jul 26, 2006)

mikew said:


> No, we are running 1 press. Although my wife would like to buy one with a bigger platen. More $$$
> We ran a 14" x 16" design with full coverage and that took about 1 minute and 10 seconds to print. Everything gets pressed for 30 seconds. So those shirts probably took about 2 minutes each.
> We haven't found the need to do double passes on anything yet. We can increase the ink output but 99% of what we've done has been at the lowest setting.
> From the numbers you gave I'd say the Brother is much faster and I'm sure the quality of the print is as good or better.


Thanks for the response Mike...

So...you ran at 360 dpi single pass for this job? I couldn't do that. I tried 2 passes of 720 dpi and it just didn't have the same rich color as the 1440 did for this design. I don't always use 1440 but typically use 2 passes of 720 dpi on mine. Except for photos where I use 2 passes of 360 which seems to work better.

Also, you mentioned you are pressing for only 30 seconds? It is my understanding that for the T Jet Inks, you have to do 90 seconds for designs without white ink. Perhaps the Brother uses different inks....that sure helps a bit in time.


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## mikew (Jun 24, 2007)

treadhead said:


> Thanks for the response Mike...
> 
> So...you ran at 360 dpi single pass for this job? I couldn't do that. I tried 2 passes of 720 dpi and it just didn't have the same rich color as the 1440 did for this design. I don't always use 1440 but typically use 2 passes of 720 dpi on mine. Except for photos where I use 2 passes of 360 which seems to work better.
> 
> Also, you mentioned you are pressing for only 30 seconds? It is my understanding that for the T Jet Inks, you have to do 90 seconds for designs without white ink. Perhaps the Brother uses different inks....that sure helps a bit in time.


Yes, 90 seconds does seem like a long time to press. We could print and press a shirt while you are pressing a shirt.
Do you know the press times used for other machines? 
Maybe someone else could let us know how long they are pressing their shirts.


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