# T-Shirts business and a serious issue regarding inkjets with Epson 1400 and Roland GX-24



## sarimnadeem (Jan 11, 2010)

Hey,

I have a serious concern regarding these printing options and would highly appreciate HELP!

Before i start let me outline my machinery and work

*Printer - *Espon 1400 with bulk ink feeder (simple dye water inks)
*Cutter -* Roland GX-24
*Shirts -* 100% cotton (White, black, maroon, grey and dark blue for the time being but will add more later)
*HEAT PRESS* - GEO NIGHT DS20


1) Water inks - Dye
BEST, vibrant quality no doubt.
I am doing Photography printing using the EPSON 1400 and now am entering the T-shirts business.
I was really going for the same setup and was going to buy inkjet transfer from Forever Digital Transfer Applications Technology

But something just clicked my mind. WILL THE INKJET (DYE , OEM standard EPSON ink) ink sustain washes?
I mean obviously when we do normal printing. A drop can destroy the image. So how come it will sustain HAND WASHES once successfully transfered.





2) Water ink - Pigment
It is slightly down in quality if compared to dye based. It gives small dots in printing that is the feature of this ink i guess.
What the case in the transfer in the pigment scenario. And will I be using the same paper?


3) SUBLIMATION
Whats this 3rd world of inks? I guess this is for Polyester based stuff.
Please guide regarding my scenario.







Some people told me that its best to buy another BULK INK system and fill that with the dye sublimation (Which i heard for the first time and have no idea where can i get these) and start printing on inkjet tranfers and apply them. NO SWEAT



Please guide.
Thank you


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## majesticmind (Sep 1, 2007)

I have a shirt we printed using JPSS with dye ink and one with pigment ink. The same image on each, on the same day, same conditions. I have been wearing and washing like a bachelor for over a year. Hot water, cold water in the dryer on high heat, fabric softener, dryer sheets. They both still look like the first day. I can not tell which one was which anymore. I really think it has more to do with the transfer paper than the ink. Because we did the same thing with iron all paper. The dye print faded right away, the pigment a short time later. 


Sublimation is a diferent monster and can sustain any beating you give it. The fabric is more expensive and so is the ink, much more.

We use all 3 types of ink here. As long as we keep our machines clean and use them daily we do not have any problems. 

In the few years that we have been printing we have had 1 return. A mug that was sublimated. I have it in my kitchen, still cant figure out what is wrong with it. But the customer complained up a storm about the image being off.

Good luck.


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## sarimnadeem (Jan 11, 2010)

majesticmind said:


> I have a shirt we printed using JPSS with dye ink and one with pigment ink. The same image on each, on the same day, same conditions. I have been wearing and washing like a bachelor for over a year. Hot water, cold water in the dryer on high heat, fabric softener, dryer sheets. They both still look like the first day. I can not tell which one was which anymore. I really think it has more to do with the transfer paper than the ink. Because we did the same thing with iron all paper. The dye print faded right away, the pigment a short time later.
> 
> 
> Sublimation is a diferent monster and can sustain any beating you give it. The fabric is more expensive and so is the ink, much more.
> ...


 One more question regarding *JPSS* - Is it only for LIGHTs?
What about dark's like black and maroon

And which web site for buying transfer paper do you recommend?

And in the case of the sublimation. You say any sublimation paper can work?
Forever Digital Transfer Applications Technology papers as well?


PS: the inks we use in the EPSON CIS is this bottle
CMYK colors

[media]http://toner.sfx.com.ua/images/inkmate_u.jpg[/media]


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## sarimnadeem (Jan 11, 2010)

The above posted picture on the ink mate bottle is the exact same bottle which I purchased.


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## Nvr2Old (Oct 14, 2009)

JPSS is Jet Pro Soft Stretch, this is for lights, should be fine for your white and gray color cotton shirts. For Darks, like your black and dark blue cotton shirts you will need an opaque transfer paper, there are many on this forum that are well used, Paropy, Iron all, and 3G Jet Opaque are a few. Just do a search on the forum for any of the above brands for more info.
The link you gave in the first post is a company based in Germany that I have never tried, so if your in Europe, you may have different options.


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## majesticmind (Sep 1, 2007)

To transfer sublimation ink you can use any paper. Normal paper works just a good as sublimation paper.


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## sarimnadeem (Jan 11, 2010)

@ majesticmind
@Nvr2Old
Thank you for your time.

I have one concern still
You see the ink bottle i attached. I use to take out prints on photo paper etc.
And i usually laminate them cause i know that even a drop will destroy it as DYE inks are so sensitive.
How can they survive even 10 washes. And I want them to go at least a 100 when I launch my business.

One thing is for sure, that i have EPSON 1400 and thats the only printer i can afford.

Plus @ majesticmind @Nvr2Old Will I need to crop the design in JPSS (Light color shirts) and Paropy, Iron all, and 3G Jet Opaque (DARK shirts). Otherwise a white box will come around in both?
right?

and how is this for a DARK transfer
InkJet Dark Transfer Paper for Dark Fabric


Thanks alot guys


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## Nvr2Old (Oct 14, 2009)

I am not familiar with the ink you have. Using OEM Epson Claria ink, I have had good results on lights. Opaque transfers have been known to fade and/or crack with age. 
Yes you will need to cut away the unwanted transfer material before pressing it to the garment.
You will get a lot of different opinions on opaque transfer paper. I would recommend to search the threads for more info


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## charles95405 (Feb 1, 2007)

If the 1400 is the only printer you can afford, sublimation is out because you can not switch back and forth as you will waste a ton of ink in purging the lines. 

I know Dan says using any transfer paper is okay for sublimation...I have only been doing sublimation for over 9 years and can say that I have NEVER had the same results using normal transfer paper..besides what the deal with cost...a 100 sheet pack of sublimation paper is only $15-$16 dollars...regular transfer paper is $27-$54 for *50* sheets! The first price is from Best Blanks...the 2nd from Coastal Business Supplies...both sponsors on the forum


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## sarimnadeem (Jan 11, 2010)

@ Nvr2Old 
One final verdict.
If I buy the JPSS for my lights. Can I assure my customers that they can go through with it with even a 50-60 washes.
And about the Darks, can you recommend the paper you are using. Cause one thing I just understood with your replies that darks will always be in a second grade quality and performace when we compare them to Lights (JPSS)


@charles95405 
I basically have 2 EPSON 1400 with CIS. One has OEM ink mate ink feeded. And the other one has sublimation.

FInally on bestblanks, I selected the following

TRANSFER PAPER - IRON ON INKJET & LASER HEAT TRANSFER PAPER - FOR ALL PRINTER TYPES!
*"JET-PRO®" *JPA-11 -> Lights
*"JET-OPAQUE" *JO-11 -> Darks


Please guide me is my selection OK. Should I order or are there other more better in their list

Whats this type: *"TransferJet" - For InkJet Printers.*


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## Nvr2Old (Oct 14, 2009)

sarimnadeem said:


> @ Nvr2Old
> One final verdict.
> If I buy the JPSS for my lights. Can I assure my customers that they can go through with it with even a 50-60 washes.
> [/B]


I have read of many people that have washed for years and still consider the graphic image to be in good condition. My personal wash test shirt has about 15 washes and still looks good


sarimnadeem said:


> And about the Darks, can you recommend the paper you are using. Cause one thing I just understood with your replies that darks will always be in a second grade quality and performace when we compare them to Lights (JPSS)
> [/B]


I liked the transfer paper from Coastal business supplies made by Neenah called 3G Jet Opaque. It has about 15 test washes and still looks good with OEM Claria ink, slightly faded but not cracking. I have heard that Paropy is even better, softer hand. It's more expensive and I have not tried it.


sarimnadeem said:


> Please guide me is my selection OK. Should I order or are there other more better in their list
> [/B]


I have not ordered from best blanks before I am not familiar with their products.They probably have paper that has been relabeled to their house brand, maybe search threads for more info on that.


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## sarimnadeem (Jan 11, 2010)

I see.

Thanks
But i have got a great idea.
Please if any one can guide me.

Why don't we sublimate COTTON shirts. I have heard of a coating which when sprayed on cotton shirts or mugs or any ceramics. It becomes sublimable.
Please can you guide me regarding that coating chemical and where can I get it

Thanks alot


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## charles95405 (Feb 1, 2007)

why don't we use the spray on coating for sublimation??? because it does NOT work. you will get runs, uneven coating and even without that the end results are lousy...not a commercial product...remember in garments, sublimation actually bonds with the fiber in the polyester garment...it will NOT bond to cotton and the spray on stuff just sets on top of the garment...so in effect you only have a transfer that will not hold up...best to use something like JPSS or Paropy from Joto


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## sarimnadeem (Jan 11, 2010)

Following is TEXT taken from besblanks.com

Sublimation ink is unique in its ability to convert from a solid to a gas without going through a liquid form. (Just like dry ice.) The conversion is initiated by heat and controlled with pressure and time. Hard items such as ceramic, fiber board, metals, etc. *requires a special coating to accept* *the sublimation inks*. You must purchase the mugs, tiles, metals, etc. *with the coating already on them*, it is not something you can coat yourself. We carry a full line of these sublimatable blanks. When you apply to 100% polyester (ie: our mouse pads and puzzles) you do not need any coating, it is applied directly to the 100% polyester fabric. 


Please see the BOLD lines.
I once saw this in Dubai. A guy had this setup and he doing sublimation with an EPSON 1400. I asked him details, he said that these 100% cotton shirts have been passed through a process and then we bought them as blanks and now I can sublimate them which is far better than JPSS transfers.

So can we do this too?

Obviously sublimation binds to the fabric as ink and its a monster. It can withstand anything

Thank you for your prompt response


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## Nvr2Old (Oct 14, 2009)

I have not seen anything on this forum in regards to the process above being tried on cotton shirts. Could be an interesting experiment if you could find someone to do the pre-treat process on cotton, but again have not heard of anyone trying this here in U.S.
If the pretreat process is not safe for wearable items, that might explain why I have not heard of this in the U.S.


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## sarimnadeem (Jan 11, 2010)

hmmm...
But if you go into a LEVI's store and closely look at the cotton shirts, you will find some shirts are a transfer and most are not. What does that means. Definitly sublimation as there is no feel of the Paper. Its in the fabric and the shirts tag says 100% cotton. 
So the only answer is that they are doing a sublimation on COTTON shirts which have been *pre treated*

i guess this is the next big thing for the cotton commercial business


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## Nvr2Old (Oct 14, 2009)

That process is most likely screen printed with water based inks


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## sarimnadeem (Jan 11, 2010)

Nvr2Old said:


> That process is most likely screen printed with water based inks


But in screen printing we cant do that customized stuff.
I mean it would be some few specific designs right?


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## Nvr2Old (Oct 14, 2009)

If your talking photo realistic, It's probably DTG printing (direct to garment) They are mostly Epson based print head machines designed to print on t-shirts. Check out the DTG area of the forum for more info.


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## sarimnadeem (Jan 11, 2010)

Nvr2Old said:


> If your talking photo realistic, It's probably DTG printing (direct to garment) They are mostly Epson based print head machines designed to print on t-shirts. Check out the DTG area of the forum for more info.


Yes i am talking about a photo realistic. Lets suppose i want to do a SUPER MAN logo (Diamond shape)
Whats the scenario with EPSON 1400 and roland GX24

If i was doing it on a polyester then its simple. I GOT THAT

But what about COTTON.

By the name DTG, it implies that its a direct printing in the shirts with no involvement of a paper or a heat press
Am i right?

Please a further explanation in detail would be great
Thanks man


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## Nvr2Old (Oct 14, 2009)

If I were making a superman logo, I would probably use heat applied transfer vinyl cut with the Roland. I use Eco-film from imprintable warehouse, but there are many suppliers available, search the vinyl transfers area of the forum Vinyl Cutters (Plotters) and Transfers - T-Shirt Forums If more then 3 colors either transfer paper or DTG printing. DTG printers are expensive and high maintenance. Yes, they are based mostly on Epson print heads (R1900 and so on)
Here is a link to the DTG area of the forum Direct to Garment (DTG) Inkjet Printing - T-Shirt Forums


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## sarimnadeem (Jan 11, 2010)

Nvr2Old said:


> If I were making a superman logo, I would probably use heat applied transfer vinyl cut with the Roland. I use Eco-film from imprintable warehouse, but there are many suppliers available, search the vinyl transfers area of the forum Vinyl Cutters (Plotters) and Transfers - T-Shirt Forums If more then 3 colors either transfer paper or DTG printing. DTG printers are expensive and high maintenance. Yes, they are based mostly on Epson print heads (R1900 and so on)
> Here is a link to the DTG area of the forum Direct to Garment (DTG) Inkjet Printing - T-Shirt Forums




Hey great!
Can it be done by EPSON 1900
Cause my uncle just bought it for my business.
Please explain me how can i do that with this printer


I saw this video
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVZh07CfJSw[/media]

This is basically the exact same result which we achieve with POLY's 100% using a transfer media.

I want to acheive the same stuff with cotton 100% as well
EIther with the DTG technology or using a polypropene spray pretreatment to 100% cottons

you guidance required


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## sarimnadeem (Jan 11, 2010)

Also if there is a way to modify R1900
Will the shirts be printed using normal inkket OEM inks. Dye based? what about washes?


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## sarimnadeem (Jan 11, 2010)

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yT9Kfc7n9yw[/media]

This is the exact model which I have
1400

And look at the unbelievable result. I really really want to achieve this.
Please tell me which inks are these. Are these standard Pigment or Dye or sublimation inks. Cause these are the only inks which EPSON supports.
Plus what abt washes?


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## charles95405 (Feb 1, 2007)

Like JV, I have not heard of the process you refer to from Dubai...but you are correct in the all hard surface items for sublimation have the polymer coating that will take the sublimation inks..again I have tried several DIY coatings and they never work...period.

if someone wants to tip a toe into the sublimation world a new player on the scene has a sweet deal for beginning..in fact for pros IF you are satisfied with 8.5x11 prints. That is the new Ricoh e3300 n...www.enmart.com has it for $379 including sublimation ink. True the carts are smaller than the larger ones on the Ricoh Gx5050 and GX 7000 but they only cost$60 vx $110


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## sarimnadeem (Jan 11, 2010)

I cant thank you guys enough but Charles and Nvr2Old i want to move my scenario to DTG of the video which i posted in post #24 of this thread, for now

Because i have both 1400 and R1900
and i just want to know these things


1) I can DTG on 100% cottons
2) What modifications required. Will the printer need some engineering
3) INK? standard OEM's of sublimation ?
4) Washes lifes?

--
5) Poly's should i do the DTG with them as well or is the traditional transfer paper should be used?


Thanks alot


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## Nvr2Old (Oct 14, 2009)

Search u-tube for do it yourself videos on DTG. Be prepared to spend a lot of time and money to convert your printer. I have not found many people that actually get useable results without buying a real DTG machine.


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## charles95405 (Feb 1, 2007)

as JV stated...if you are going to DIY a DTG printer...be prepared for some disappointments in time, money and results. I have not seen ONE person who has built his own that has had long term success.. You will have to do major modifications....strike that...you will need to built a system you can take the guts of the printer and fit onto what you are building. 

Yes you can print on cotton/poly etc dont understand what you mean by 'OEM's of sublimation' In the US sublimation ink only comes from Sawgrass...the chinese ink does NOT work

Personally I think you are chasing a dream without end...Sorry if I sound rude but if you want to do DTG right you need a professional system with support. The least expensive one I know of is about 13-14K from a well know source...other wise dig deeper...


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## DTFuqua (Jun 26, 2008)

one thing that most people that get into the DIY DTG printers don't think of/know about is that you generaly need a RIP for the printer your using to get the modifications to work properly. A lot of people try to just get things to work with modifying the hardware but the right RIP will make the thing work a lot easier.


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## sarimnadeem (Jan 11, 2010)

I can't Thank you people enough.

So my final setup would be:

Cotton:
EPSON 1400
CIS for pigment inks
JPSS paper for lights


Poly:
Sublimation transfer with sub inks
Epson 1400


Thanks once again guys


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## Nvr2Old (Oct 14, 2009)

That sounds great!


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