# Permaboss Mini Motif Maker-Roland EGX?



## SamBella Designs (Sep 19, 2008)

Hi, I am looking to make some rhinestone templates. Does anyone have experience and comments about the Permaboss Motif Maker and/or the Roland Engraver 30/300/350?
Just dipping into this and would love any feedback at all. I cant find any prices on the Permaboss Mini Motif Maker. Making my templates for one color rhinestones would be fine but I would like to make large templates.
Thank you for the input.


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## SamBella Designs (Sep 19, 2008)

*Or, on second thought does anyone have any other suggestions to make some templates?*
*Thank you.*


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## bob emb (Apr 5, 2007)

we originally looked at the perma boss and thier robotic rhinestone setting machine. the gentleman there uses scare tactics to sell his equip.
He says how terrible the CAMMS machine is and how inferior it is to the Austrian machines, this is partly true because they are built for different uses.
The permaboss is over $20,000 and thier rhinestone machine anywhere from $65-130,000.
I do not doubt the quality of these machines as they are made in Austria.
We dedided to buy the Korean CAMMS machine. We have it about 3 months and it works great. The software with the perma boss is more sofisticated but I can live with the gem master for the difference in price.

The software for both are proprietary and can only be used with their machines, at least that is how it works with our software.

Best Regards,

Bob


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## RolandASDRick (May 13, 2008)

The Permaboss Mini Motif Maker is about $8000 + and the EGX-350 (similar bed size) is $5495 MSRP list. The difference is in the software. The Permaboss software (RhinestoneWorx) is based on CADLink Signlab software. It's nice software, but not easy to use if you've never used sign software before and cost is $795 for their basic package and $1595 for their Pro package. Roland sells R-WearStudio for the EGX-30 & 350 for $299 when bundled with the machine and is very user friendly and as far as materials, you can use MDF board which is very low price and can be purchased at any home improvement store. If you want to see some videos of the software and the EGX-350 engraving a motif template, visit the following link on youtube. www.youtube.com/rolandasdvideos . Hope this information helps out.


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## tshirtshirts (Dec 3, 2007)

Hey there,
I was sold on the Permaboss Mini Motif Maker machine (same as Motif Maker that drills template boards but smaller and about $9000 after all was said and done to the U.S.)

I also got the hard sell and the scare tactics from the sales guy who also happens to be the president of the company. With this entry-level machine I'm still a small fish in a big pond but did not want to go with the cheapest option (Roland or similar)... I thought I remember being told this machine was manufactured in Europe... maybe my memory is bad on that part. (Anyway for the record it's made in China but IS well-constructed).

Anyway... I took delivery of one of the first 10 or so machines ever made, supposedly, in July 2007. From the start my machine did not work correctly, it did not drill accurate, precise holes. I worked with tech support (who is very good by the way) for 6 months but we could not get the problem solved. This is a big problem by the way... means it takes about 5 times as long to MAKE a template and about 5 times as long to USE the template when you're dealing with rough holes that aren't round.

During this entire process over many months with practically weekly communication with support, never once could I get attention of the president who originally sold me my machine. I tried. I let him know I received a machine I couldn't use in business. Support should have kept him up to date as well. He was a great salesperson but had no followup when there was a problem (which you could argue is what makes a great salesperson - they can separate pre-sales and post-sales).

After 6 months and DOZENS of hours I finally hired an expert to come in and take a look (why didn't I think of this before?). It took him less than 30 seconds to resolve my problem (bit spinning backwards, motor had been reverse wired from the factory) and it took me about half an hour to learn how to change the motor direction and now it works nicely.

I still have problems getting holes drilled of consistent DEPTH - they need to be a precise, consistent depth or else not all the stones will set correctly (I'm talking about fractions of a millimeter here, very precise) - and this is something we're still sorting through. I think perhaps the boards they are sending me are not of consistent thickness, also they warped pretty badly so I am waiting on more to come in. Also I have found another locally-available material that works quite well that is cheaper and readily available.

Anyway, I am finally getting happy with the machine but have had a disappointing overall experience with Permaboss. I realize I'm buying industrial equipment here, not a lobster dinner but I feel I deserve some personal attention from someone who has a personal stake in the game.

Can you imagine how it felt to purchase a machine that should have allowed me to expand my business into new realms and have to miss the entire 2008 holiday season and delay 6 months because of a manufacturing defect? If the expert I hired had not found the problem some serious action would have then been taken - getting them to come out here and diagnose or exchange the machine at no cost. It's a little tougher being that I'm in the US and they are in Canada regarding legal remedies but fortunately the wife of an acquaintance of mine in Toronto is an attorney who was ready to help me out if I needed it.

Anyway, this is MY personal experience and should not be construed as the standard for Permaboss. Supposedly their high-end equipment (the $80-$125k machines) are industry leaders and I hope to be in the position to buy one someday (at which time you know I will be checking out ALL the competition). But here are the problems or potential problems I encountered:
- I bought v1.0 of a new machine; this like anything (cars included) always carries risk;
- buying directly from Canada complicates things a little (currency conversion, customs, though they did a good job of helping eliminate customs by shipping from NY), decreased legal remedy options
- they also have their own version of proprietary rhinestone software (RhinestoneWorx) so they don't have to license another and can make more profit but it's in the early stages and a little buggy and is has been missing some needed features... I have the feeling that I have been a big contributor in helping them improve the software and fix bugs
- I'm not sure the machine is useful for anything else other than making rhienestone templates with their software. Perhaps it's a standard CNC machine and can be put to other uses if I sell it to someone else as a CNC machine

I hope others have had better experiences with them. I was definitely time-pressured into the purchase but I accept 100% responsibility for pulling the trigger and buying the machine. Just do your homework first to make sure that you are going with the best option for your needs.

To sum it up, a simple phone call or e-mail once a month from Rob would have probably put me at ease and known I was an appreciated customer and caused me to write a completely different review here. I guess I just run my company differently.


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## allhamps (Mar 15, 2007)

Wow, am I glad I did NOT get the PermaBoss Mini motiff. I was doing rhinestone designs, LARGE ONES, by hand, and knew I had to do something to automate, but was brand new and didn't know where to start. I started looking on the internet and found the PermaBoss. I talked to the guy and was almost sold until I read in the information I asked him to send me that I needed TWO computers to run the machine. The mini motiff maker needed its own computer. The other problem was that I make LARGE designs and the PermaBoss and the Roland limit you in size. VOILA!! the DAS rhinestone system that does your templates in vinyl. You are only limited in size by the size of the vinyl you use. I did not need a new and/or separate machine, and the software was reasonably priced and is EASY to use. I got mine in mid-November and I am on a roll, if I may say so myself. Take a look!!


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## tshirtshirts (Dec 3, 2007)

Those patterns look great. How well do they turn out once drilled? Would love to see some close-up photos, and I can share some made by the MMM.

Regarding the two computers for the Permaboss Mini Motif Maker, well I'm not sure you understood what they were saying exactly. One computer is any PC that you design the pattern on using the software. Then the software creates a tiny file (basically a text file with machine coordinates) that you put in a USB thumbdrive and plug into the computer on the rhinestone machine. But that is not a PC, it is part of the machine, it's the "brains" that take the incoming file and tell the machine how to operate the X, Y, and Z axis. So don't think of it as "another computer" that you'd have to buy, basically it is part of the machine and you don't buy it separately. The nice thing about this approach is I don't have to have a PC in the same room as the machine, don't have to even have one turned on... I can load the files onto the USB key and run them anytime I want.

I just discovered the DAS machine a few nights ago and wanted to ask someone about that. Since different sized rhinestones require different hold DEPTHS (not just widths), are you able to buy vinyl in exactly the correct depths needed for the different sized stones? There are at least 6 different sizes stones and they would all need slightly different depths or else they won't settle in the template correctly. Are you able to overcome this? Is this what you mean when you say "You are only limited in size by the size of the vinyl you use"?

Lastly, assuming you are in the US, when all was said and done, what did the DAS machine end up costing you complete w/ software?


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## allhamps (Mar 15, 2007)

The templates are cut into a vinyl that is sort of like a sandblast vinyl. As a matter of fact, I just bought some sandblast from Sign Warehouse and I use that instead of the DAS vinyl because it comes in more widths and is cheaper. Using the vinyl, you only have to worry about the width of the stones, and not the depth. The holes are cut in the vinyl, and then it is applied to a "backer board" for stability and as a base for the stones to settle. They fall/brush right in with no problem as long as your hole sizing is accurate. The minimum DAS stuff required to run the system, mainly the software, was about $1,500. It might be a little less if you already have ProCut, which I did not. I was using something provided by Sign Warehouse and that was not compatible with the rest of the Stone Stencil software.

Here is the quote from the information I received on the PermaBoss Mini Motiff maker: 

Is there some data input device on that machine or it is to be connected to a computer. 
The machine needs its own PC to run the motif maker. We don’t design using this PC because it should only run the machine and to run both at the same time would make both software and hardware run slowly! All you need is an older PC with Windows 98 or 95 (which we can provide) and it should have a parallel printer port on the back for the connection. If you don’t have one you can get one used with a monitor for under $200 for sure at a local used PC store. You can also call our support line and a tech will walk you through if you have questions or need help. Just call us when you are at the store on your cell phone and put their person on the line! 

I'll try to get you some close ups, but here is the only template pic I have with me right now.


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## bob emb (Apr 5, 2007)

Hi Allhamps,

Went past your exit on I-95 last week on the way home from Myrtle Beach back to NJ. Glad you are happy with the DAS.

Sam have you resolved your problem yet.

Bob


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## allhamps (Mar 15, 2007)

Cool, I hope you waved. You guys have been just great on this forum.


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## charles95405 (Feb 1, 2007)

As slick noted....the DAS system is not a limiting as some of the others in the same price range...both around 5K if you are starting from scratch...with the roland series, you are limited to 12x9 at most..not so with the DAS system. Based upon the current economy, there is no way I would spend 20-60 K or more for a motif machine...For me the DAS is quicker, but I also have ...and use...the Roland EGX350


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## tshirtshirts (Dec 3, 2007)

Hi,
I posted in January about my Permaboss Mini Motif Maker. At that time I was finally getting good results with the machine and it's only gotten better. When making 1-color/element rhinestone patterns, it's extremely quick and easy. I can do a complete 600-stone transfer in about 90 seconds. 2 color/element patterns take maybe a couple minutes longer.

Now that the machine's fully working (with that easy fix of making the bit spin the correct direction!), and I have a new batch of very flat oilboards, it's working like a charm. I can run it at full speed and it only takes a couple minutes to drill a new board (you only have to do this once per design). I found a great method to make the holes consistent depth.


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## Nolan Carter (Mar 11, 2009)

I would encourage you to do your research. I recently purchased a Roland and although it's a great machine, the software, R Wear, is a bit primative and unstable.


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## RolandASDRick (May 13, 2008)

At the $499 price ($299 when bundled with a machine), R-WearStudio actually has a lot more features and controls than those programs costing $800 on up such as GemMaster, RhinestoneWorx, CrystalCAD and CrystalPress. So, not sure what part of the software you're referring to as primitive and unstable. I'd make sure you have the latest update (which is free of charge to download).


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## Nolan Carter (Mar 11, 2009)

Simple features missing; 1) The function of grouping stones when released from a line or object. Not talking about the "symbols" feature but instead the ability to lasso a selection of stones within a design to group 2) a rotate feature once the stones are set. 3) short cut keys for the tools. 4) the abillity to edit a line or the shape of a circle or square while the stones are still affixed to said object....As for unstability, just today the program crashed 4 times when trying to set stones to an imported eps.....


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## tshirtshirts (Dec 3, 2007)

Wanted to post an update here, several months later. I ended up abandoning the Mini Motif Maker. It was just too hard to make multi-colored designs and get them to align perfectly. It wasn't impossible, but took a lot of time. I dreaded a tiny 50-shirt project when it had multiple elements. NOTE: THIS IS NOT A PROBLEM WITH THE MMM ITSELF, it is a problem inherent to this type of method of creating rhinestone patterns. Yeah, some people have more patience than me. I needed to put the boards down and get back to making some real money.

I started researching the automated/robotic machines and had even put a deposit down on the CAMS 6-head machine and purchased some supplementary equipment for it, when I thought I'd give Permaboss a call and see if they could help me sell the Mini Motif Maker (by giving me some more specs about it and such). BTW it IS a normal CNC machine.

The CAMS machine was over my budget (40k PLUS about $4k in a used compressor and refrigerated air cooler/dryer, AND I had to have 240v installed) but did what I needed, though I was unenthused about their software which seemed primitive. I'd been using RhinestoneWorx for some time and it was getting easier and faster to make designs.

Rob kind of stopped me in my tracks when he said he'd just launched a smaller version of the Libero automated rhinestone machine (did I buy version 1.0 again? Well, not really since it was simply a smaller version of their time-tested larger machine). It was $25k or so but he did 2 things to help me stick to my budget:
1. Gave me full credit (100% trade in) for the Mini Motif Maker equipment ($5k) as a discount off the Libero;
2. Helped me sell the MMM AND I got to keep all the money. I sold it for $1700 on ebay and the buyer, a sign maker, is still quite happy with it.

So that was $6700 back on my original investment of $9k on the MMM, AND I could still of course use the RhinestoneWorx software w/ the Libero which saved me new software costs (I had to convert my files over to the Libero format but they had a way to do this almost automatically).

The Libero single head machine has a single hopper for a single rhinestone element (color or size), and a single head that picks them up, unlike the CAMS which has multiple hoppers so you can't create a multiple-element design w/out work changing out the stones and/or head/tip between each new element. That can be a bummer BUT I purchased extra plates which hold the transfer paper. I now have 6 and can run usually about 24-30 designs one color at a time and it cuts down the switching by a factor of 6. I may even buy more plates in the future.

Also note I get by NICELY with a $500 Crafstman compressor that runs on 120V. It only runs for about 2 minutes, every 8 mins or so (25% duty). And instead of a refrigerated air cooler, I use a $150 dessicant dryer which does not use any power. The Libero itself runs on a 120v-240v step-up transformer.

After shipping and such I probably ended up spending about $21k or so + tax on the Libero, though I'm leasing it and there's interest (though it's great to have a low monthly payment and retain my capital).

I've been using the Libero almost daily for about 4 months. It is very well constructed, and this time really made in Europe (Austria). It is a sturdy machine and all the parts are high quality and well-constructed. A lot of thought and machining went into this. BUT to save costs and reduce the number of expensive things that can break, for example it doesn't use lasers like CAMS does to tell when a stone is positioned correctly in the hopper. It uses a vacuum after it attempts to pick up a stone. This can be a little slower since it has to try to pick it up before it knows if it's successful or not, while CAMS just won't try until a stone is in the right placs, BUT overall the Libero is a faster machine anyway. I get about 85 stones per minute compared to 60-65 the CAMS was getting when I was evaluating it in person in Fullerton, CA.

Let me continue to use the Libero for a few more months before I do a final report on my overall success with it. I am still trying to work out some minor kinks and still getting used to the FEEL of the machine (it just takes experience and use to know exactly how to position the tip each time for example). I have tried to train someone else to use it but no luck yet. The learning curve is high but I don't suspect it's any different w/ equipment like this. CAMS learning curve was pretty high as well. Even the trainer wasn't particularly skilled and had been running it A-Z at shows and doing training for years on it. Some days it runs for 20 hours in a row with nary a misplaced or overturned stone to be found. Other days I can't get it to make a straight line. I just finished a project that used about 200,000 Korean stones and I've decided I was quite happy with the results. It took about 40 hours of machine time for this project.

Again, I'll follow up in 6 months or so.


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## sjidohair (Apr 9, 2008)

Great follow up thanks for giving us a heads up, I was wondering,, how it was going
Sandy jo
MMM


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## allhamps (Mar 15, 2007)

Great follow up. I'm not quite sure I understand the part about the 6 plates? Do you have like 6 plates for single color designs or do you use the 6 plates to make the different stages of a multi color design. I have only done preliminary research on the Libero, but it is the one I've been looking at to automate. Great deal too. I might have to give them a call and start some discussion.


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## miamirhinestone (Mar 10, 2009)

Stop trying to sell your roland machine


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## sjidohair (Apr 9, 2008)

Alex ,
How are things going with you,, and your machines,, ?
I have not heard from you in a long while..


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## tshirtshirts (Dec 3, 2007)

tshirtshirts said:


> Again, I'll follow up in 6 months or so.


Well it's 11 months later and I love the Libero - no complaints! It's fast, accurate, doesn't use a lot of electricity, doesn't use a lot of air, the UI on the PC is great, I've gotten to know the RhinestoneWorx software inside and out and am very fast at it, even trained others to be quick with it.

Parts are not showing signs of wear, easy to maintain, grease and clean.

Look, I don't need more competition, and would love if nobody else bought rhinestone machines.  But - I feel I have an obligation to take the time to report back on my successes with the Libero after using it for more than a year. It's a good piece of equipment and I have gotten good support (mostly in the form of friendly answers to my stupid questions) from Permaboss. Thumbs up!


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## miamirhinestone (Mar 10, 2009)

I am doing great staying somewhat busy it is starting to pick up again.
We are opening a new location with a storefront
I was wondering if I can or is their a way to let everyone know????


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