# Printing white ink - True opinions



## apipromo (Nov 4, 2010)

Instead of a which machine is best post, or a mine vs. yours post. How about getting serious about white ink (dark garment printing) and its profitability. Now granted, the idea of offering very short runs of full color designs on dark garments is very exciting, and white ink has come along way through its short DTG lifespan, but is it truly profitable? Taking into account labor, pretreatment, ink usage costs, maintenance, replacement parts/labor, and your precious time. Are you satisfied with where we are at, or do you think there is still a long way to go. Or maybe it needs to be approached from an entirely different angle. I'm curious to hear the thoughts from members of the industry.


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## abmcdan (Sep 14, 2007)

After 3+ years of DTG printing I've come to the conclusion that printing with white inks wasn't worth the extra hassle. For us printing DTG on darks was very popular but gave us the most problems and had the lowest margins. We converted our machine to CMYK only.

However, I do know there are lots of printers that it works for and they will swear by it. There seems to be so many factors that play into whether your white ink printing goes smooth or not.

I wouldn't discourage someone from trying to print white ink but know going into it that it isn't a click and print easy situation.


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## 102557 (Mar 6, 2010)

abmcdan said:


> After 3+ years of DTG printing I've come to the conclusion that printing with white inks wasn't worth the extra hassle. For us printing DTG on darks was very popular but gave us the most problems and had the lowest margins. We converted our machine to CMYK only.
> 
> However, I do know there are lots of printers that it works for and they will swear by it. There seems to be so many factors that play into whether your white ink printing goes smooth or not.
> 
> I wouldn't discourage someone from trying to print white ink but know going into it that it isn't a click and print easy situation.


I agree with all the above!!! (jetting white ink or russian roulette pick your poison.. thats how i feel those two compare at some point jetting white ink will get you if it hasnt already)

It is especially hard to be profitable printing white if your a low volume shop.. I found you need to be printing white daily for the machine to run well and keep ink from separating etc... theres a ton of cost involved labor/pretreat/ink/ waste ink/ printheads..

although a bagged ink system is much better, it does not solve the problem of ink separation and wasting ink and maintenace when your not printing white... I have completely abandoned white ink printing with a dtg= to much effort for a small shop with little profit if any

I think the success stories come from those using bag ink systems that are high volume shops that burn thru the white faster than it can separate.. like contract dtg services etc...

I would like to try a hybrid system for an epson similar to the swinger system as used by the brother gt541 
Swinger DTG Swinger DGD blackbyrddesign blackbyrd Brother GT-541 Robert Lopez

you screen the white ink and then digitally print the cmyk.. this seems to be a better alternative IMHO, than jetting the white ink and pretreat with its high cost.. the labor factor is similar in my opinion and would be very viable with a 6 plus shirt count..

Im really surprized no manufacturer has offered this as an option... we are currently in search for a screen print white ink thats compatible with the dupont cmyk.. If we cant find this we will prolly not use dtg at all and focus on screen printing and applying vinyl..


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## Justin Walker (Dec 6, 2006)

The first thing I should get out of the way is this: *printing white ink is not for everyone!* In fact, I know tons and tons of people who got into DTG printing, but then decided to switch their machines to dual-CMYK units, or drop DTG printing altogether.

Now that we've got that little tidbit out of the way, here's the good news: *white ink printing can be very profitable, if done correctly!* First and foremost, you have to plan to print with white ink on a daily basis. If you don't think you have the volume to support this, then you might want to reconsider the white ink option, at least in the beginning (you can always add white ink into the mix, at a later time). The fact of the matter is that white ink can and will separate when left in the printer for extended periods of time; this can happen in 8-12 hours, or it can happen in 24 hours, but it will happen. This isn't the end of the world, of course; when you come back to your printer (provided it hasn't been sitting for days on end), you just need to flush out the settled ink from the lines, dampers and print head, before you begin your actual production.

Purging ink out of your lines is not a happy thing to do, because it's obviously frustrating to watch all that money go down the drain. If you are going to come back to your machine every other day, and this becomes a regular ritual, the costs can certainly add up! However, if you are printing with the white ink on a daily basis, the costs can be easily marginalized. First of all, when you don't leave the printer sitting for too long, you don't need to purge very much ink out of the system, in order to get to the good stuff - sometimes a simple cleaning cycle is all that is needed, and you're off and printing! If we print later in the afternoon, today, then go back to the shop tomorrow morning and fire up the machines, a simple clean is all it would take to be ready for action. If we stopped printing early in the day, then came in later in the day tomorrow, we would probably want to do a K2 or K3 cleaning cycle (through the Epson utility) to push out all the "bad" ink, then we're ready to roll. This is all assuming, of course, that you are shaking your bags / cartridges daily, to ensure that the stored ink doesn't settle! It won't do you any good if you are purging out settled ink, only to replace it with more settled ink.

Another key factor when printing with white ink is to manage your wasted ink!!! This can be done in several ways, but the fastest and most effective way to do this is to *stop printing white t-shirts on your machine that has white ink in it!* The reasoning behind this is simple; when the machines are running, they don't care what color they are printing on - every "X" number of shirts, most DTG printers will do an automatic cleaning cycle to keep the print heads fresh.... Not to mention, the print head spits ink every time it returns to the spitting station, while printing (it's a very small amount, but it does add up). We do about 60% white shirts in our business - if I print 2,000 white shirts in a month (or 1,000, or whatever number you want to use), that adds up to a lot of white ink that got spit or purged while the machine wasn't even printing on dark shirts! Tons and tons of white ink wasted, without a drop of it landing on a black t-shirt..... That's just bad business, in my book. So many people print lights / darks / lights / darks, then at the end of the month wonder where all their white ink has gone; a lot of it is used to print those darks, but a decent percentage is also wasted on repeated and unnecessary purging of the white ink, when printing on "lights". By printing all of our white shirts on a separate, dual-CMYK machine, we are able to eliminate all of that waste; I can print 2,000 white shirts this month, and not one drop of white ink will be wasted during the entire process. The added benefits of faster light-garment production and reduced overhead make this setup even more efficient.

Aside from the shortfalls of the actual ink chemistry, white ink can actually be fairly friendly when you run it through a reliable machine (provided you are running white ink in a closed system - ie bags or sealed cartridges; pumping white ink from an open, bulk system will wreak havoc on even the most well-built machines). To this day, I have not had to replace a print head on either of my Neoflex printers, and that's saying a lot! We have not had to replace any dampers, either - every month or so, we do take the time to completely flush the system, ensuring that ink-buildup is kept to a minimum. Having a well-built, solid machine has helped us to reduce misprints to a point where they are practically a non-issue, thus ensuring that we aren't wasting precious ink as a result of stupid machine errors.

Another factor involves how the RIP software prepares the white under base, when printing on dark garments; I have seen a lot of RIP's that lay down a solid white under base, anywhere color ink is going to be printed. With the NeoRIP PRO, the under base is created using very nice gradients, thereby saving ink on the actual prints, themselves! All of these things, combined, allows us to effectively print white ink with minimal worries and minimal headache - I no longer dread walking in to the shop and asking how things are going! I know that, most of the time, the answer will be "they're going great!" It has taken years to figure out some of these things, and lots of trial and error, but I do feel we have come to a nice understanding with regards to printing white ink through a DTG printer.


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## zoom_monster (Sep 20, 2006)

Very good Explanation Justin. I might add that you need to price according to productions speed... ie what the throuput is per hour. Yes, the material cost IS higher, but if you set a goal like 60 to 80 gross dollars per hour, you can easily pay the lease, pay an operator, have a profit and be competitive in a retail environment. There is a lot of business for short run and for jobs that DTG can do well. If you sell the strengths and not compete on the level of screenprinting it can be profitable. If you can sell both then you're even better off.


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## Don-ColDesi (Oct 18, 2006)

We have a large customer who runs two Vipers and are very successful with the process of both dark & light garments (Rob K on here is the production manager for the company). The key to being successful in there case comes down to a realistic approach to pricing your products. Their formula is pretty straightforward. They bill $1 a minute for printer time plus a 13 minute setup/clean up/garment handling fee ($13) for the whole job plus a 2x multiplier for the cost of the garment. They base their oprinter time estimate on image size (which they have calculated based on experience). They don't worry about consumabales costs as printer time gives a good estimate of amount of ink used. To keep a check on the accuracy of their formula they double their ink cost in the RIP and periodically use that as a baseline to make sure their $1 per minute fee is sufficient. 

It is commonly assumed that one off work is the sweet spot for DTG printing as you can get $20-25 per shirt for one offs. The reall sweet spot for DTG printing is in the 12-36 range where you have the printer continuously producing $12-15 shirts for an hour or two. 

If you do the math - I'm using the Viper as an example here as it is the machine I know best:
Anvil Ringspun black tee - $3.35 cost - $6.70 sales price
12" x 15" image on balck tee (5-6 minutes) - $5.50 sales price
13 minute set up/garment handling fee - $13 sales price
Retail price of one - $25.20 (you could do 3-4 of these per hour if they were all onsies)
If you order 12 retail price per garment would be $13.28 (with the 13 minute setup time allowed, you could do these shirts in 1 hour twenty minutes - netting about $60 per hour in profit)
and so on....

As you can see this model doesn't specifically differentiate between dark & light shirts (except in the base cost of the garment which will generally be higher for darks). It's really about printer time. If more folks would adopt this mentality I think that they would see more viability in the dark garment printing arena.

Hope this helps.


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## zoom_monster (Sep 20, 2006)

Josh, I often tell people to think of a printer as a one head embroidery machine. You can make a profit if you learn your craft, price correctly. eventually, as with embroidery... it could be smart to duplicate your success with more "heads".


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## abmcdan (Sep 14, 2007)

I agree that in theory you can make a decent profit with printing on darks. Over the years that we did the printing we definately made money but at what cost? I was way more stressed because of constant issues, we regularly had to break deadlines because of issues and the wasted ink was enormous.

I would venture to guess that only a small percentage of people printing with white ink 2 years ago are still in the game. For me I always wrote things off as a learning curve but it never got better.

With our purchase of the Mod 1 we finally have a mechanically sound machine but still white ink issues. We ran our machines 30 to 40 hours per week doing mostly dark shirts and still couldn't keep white ink flowing correctly. Everyday at least once or twice you would have to wipe the printhead and do power cleans to get it printing good again. On top of that we averaged putting in a new printhead at least every 2 months.

I'm open to the fact that maybe we are doing something wrong here. But we are an average shop with above average DTG knowledge and still struggled. I've owned 4 different DTG machines in 3.5 years and my business partner bought one of the orginal Red T-Jets when they first came out. The CMYK only red t-jet had mechanical issues but never the clogging / head issues we see with white ink.

After I run my mod 1 with dual CMYK for a while I'll post back and let everyone know if there was a major difference.

Printing on darks can be done, it can be done well, but for the average person it is going to be a struggle and huge hassle. It all depends on if you have the patience and desire to deal with it.


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## acca (Jun 25, 2006)

Don,

That's a very good approach to pricing, very simple and easy to understand. But how does one price for a second print? Does adding another 12 x 14 print cost $5 to $6? What happens, if the graphic is very dense?

Thanks.


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## 102557 (Mar 6, 2010)

abmcdan said:


> I agree that in theory you can make a decent profit with printing on darks. Over the years that we did the printing we definately made money but at what cost? I was way more stressed because of constant issues, we regularly had to break deadlines because of issues and the wasted ink was enormous.
> 
> I would venture to guess that only a small percentage of people printing with white ink 2 years ago are still in the game. For me I always wrote things off as a learning curve but it never got better.
> 
> ...


Reading over all the post there seems to be a general concensus...


you need to be printing white ink daily which requires some sort of volume to justify the cost... this pretty much eliminates new startups small mom and pop shops... the small guy that then incorporates the white ink has a learning curve for printing white aswell (this is usually a costly learning curve)..

with all that said i wonder what percentage of start-ups or low volume shops are buying dtg, my guess would be in the 90 percentile range!!! or 10% of dtg buyers/operators are successful with white ink? justin. i agree with you about using separate machines for white and dark shirts as far as waste ink, however this is highly unrealistic for the entry level printer they would have to shell out another 20k!!

DaGuide posted some numbers of all dtg ink sold... it basically read 75% of sales was cmyk and 25% white ink.. I think you can break these numbers down further/ what percentage of the white ink sales are the cafe press/contract dtgers/and justin walker shops? the rest after you deduct these guys are the ones that buy the white ink to clog there printheads! this is plain truth in numbers!! some of the large dtgers might say i dont give a rip im successful who cares about the small guys.. well competition is good and is whats going to bring down your white ink cost as more people are successful with the method larger batches will be made in which cost will benefit everyone.. theres only a hand full of companies who make white ink! why? ITS NOT PROFITABLE for them/lots o people giving up on white because its a PITA.. some big boys already dropped out (rohm n haus).. were will it put everyone in the dtg biz if the current big boy drops out? Im just saying there needs to be an alternative to create competition and in turn will drive the big money ink corps to invest some real $ money to find a better solution and it will keep getting better .. IMHO..

Its just simple fact that for white ink printing to be successful for the small guy- a better white ink solution has to be brought forth and or an alternative method to printing this white in the form of a white underbase screen of some sort.. I have tested printing the white ink on various epson printers bagged or not if your not doing daily volume the printhead is done for!!! I wouldnt suggest white ink printing to any start up operation.. I think screeners with any type of volume wouldnt touch dtg with its hassels/cost of printing white and much slower printing time!!! IMHO

I dont disagree with the profitability numbers but the volume has to be in place for the white for those to exist!!! when you can print off 10-20 white cmyk shirts at a very cheap ink cost on white shirts its awesome and without issue.. however add the white to the eqaution and you start geting 2-3 per print white ink cost this changes very fast with low volume.. add in printheads/parts for repairing the machine and you lose $ fast... If this is to ever be a mainstream/permanate printing solution they need to get to work on the white ink.. or else you will see alot of used machines forsale and these dtg companies just making money on turn over buyers!! and the big companies that run them 24/7..

this doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure out!! although manufactures/sales reps of the machines might like you to think otherwise..


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## DAGuide (Oct 2, 2006)

The one thing that should also be stated is that most (if not all) of these posts are from people that are talking about using Epson printers / print heads. There are a ton of rumors spreading that more of the dtg manufacturers are going to be releasing printers that don't use the same print heads found in the Epson 1800/1900/2400/4880 printers. In some cases, this also means a different ink chemistry. Thus, it could change a ton of variables compared to the majority of the machines sold currently in the market. So as these new printers come to the market (which a couple are rumored to show up at the FESPA show next week), it is important to judge them independently.

The one thing that I find interesting is that no one in this thread even mentioned the pretreating process. The pretreating process is more important in my eyes than keeping the white ink from clogging. It affects the quality of the garment when it is presented to the customer and after being washed. A customer typically never sees a clogged printer. I would like to see improvements in the pretreatment and more distributors strongly encouraging users to get some type of automatic pretreater. This will help prevent prevent customers from getting poorly printed shirts and talking negatively about the dtg process in general. The Power Wagner sprayer just does not cut it for most of the users. (They also dislike the overspray and sticky area around it.)

Great discussion.

Mark


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## Don-ColDesi (Oct 18, 2006)

@abmcdan - I do not question that dark garment printing is harder to get consistent results out of than light garment printing, there is a lot more going on when you print in darks, however - it doesn't take a miracle to consistently print white ink either - ink starvation like you describe on your Mod is generally a factor of ink levels - or too low of pressure on the inks for bulk systems - I'm surprised that Belquette wasn't able to help you resolves the issue.

@acca - in essence each shirt costs $12.20 with a total of $13 added to the order - so 2 shirts would cost $12.20 x 2 + $13 = $37.40 or $18.70 each. Talking it out to 50 shirts would be $12.20 x 50 + $13 = $623 or $12.46 each

Hope this helps


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## abmcdan (Sep 14, 2007)

Mark,

I didn't mention pretreatment because it was never a major issue for us. I personally always thought people on the forums make it sound harder than it is. We used a wagner power sprayer and rarely had problems. 

Pretreatment is an extra step, expense and mess but I never considered it a make or break part of DTG printing like the clogging and ink flow issues.


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## 102557 (Mar 6, 2010)

DAGuide said:


> The one thing that should also be stated is that most (if not all) of these posts are from people that are talking about using Epson printers / print heads. There are a ton of rumors spreading that more of the dtg manufacturers are going to be releasing printers that don't use the same print heads found in the Epson 1800/1900/2400/4880 printers. In some cases, this also means a different ink chemistry. Thus, it could change a ton of variables compared to the majority of the machines sold currently in the market. So as these new printers come to the market (which a couple are rumored to show up at the FESPA show next week), it is important to judge them independently.
> 
> The one thing that I find interesting is that no one in this thread even mentioned the pretreating process. The pretreating process is more important in my eyes than keeping the white ink from clogging. It affects the quality of the garment when it is presented to the customer and after being washed. A customer typically never sees a clogged printer. I would like to see improvements in the pretreatment and more distributors strongly encouraging users to get some type of automatic pretreater. This will help prevent prevent customers from getting poorly printed shirts and talking negatively about the dtg process in general. The Power Wagner sprayer just does not cut it for most of the users. (They also dislike the overspray and sticky area around it.)
> 
> ...


Amen to that!!! I dont think anyone would be afraid to Invest in the automatic equiptment...If the white ink was resolved or an alternative.. I still say screening the white like the swinger system on the brother 541 is a good alternative.. (which requires no pretreat) maybe they make more money with the current options? .. consumable cost would be drastically reduced and production time would be drastically increased on this type of system...

this would be a good alternative starting point for epson printers!!!

I am actually afraid to do any heavy marketing in fear of a white ink mishap.. even with making my own printers and using bagged ink.. without white printing dtg is useless as far as im concerned..


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## Don-ColDesi (Oct 18, 2006)

@Jeff - a couple of points - we sell more direct to garment ink than just about anybody in the marketplace - our numbers indicate an almost 1-1 relationship of white ink to CMYK ink. Even without large users who only use the Epson based machines to print darks the ratio is still only 2-3 white to CMYK - ceratainly not 1-3 as indicated. I base my numbers on over 50,000 liters of ink sold and over 2000 machines sold over the last six+ years. The number of successful dark garment printers is a lot higher than you would project, especially on machine manufactured in the past three years. The Forums are not a balanced sampling of the market as a whole - they actually represent a small, vocal portion of the market. Often times those who are drawn here are drawn here because they have had issues - thus a higher concentration of unsuccessful or disgruntled operators. (this is not to indicate that everyone here is disgruntled or unsuccessful or that folks don't ever have problems).


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## 102557 (Mar 6, 2010)

Don-ColDesi said:


> @Jeff - a couple of points - we sell more direct to garment ink than just about anybody in the marketplace - our numbers indicate an almost 1-1 relationship of white ink to CMYK ink. Even without large users who only use the Epson based machines to print darks the ratio is still only 2-3 white to CMYK - ceratainly not 1-3 as indicated. I base my numbers on over 50,000 liters of ink sold and over 2000 machines sold over the last six+ years. The number of successful dark garment printers is a lot higher than you would project, especially on machine manufactured in the past three years. The Forums are not a balanced sampling of the market as a whole - they actually represent a small, vocal portion of the market. Often times those who are drawn here are drawn here because they have had issues - thus a higher concentration of unsuccessful or disgruntled operators. (this is not to indicate that everyone here is disgruntled or unsuccessful or that folks don't ever have problems).


I certainly cant argue with your personal numbers.. I was referencing the numbers Daguide posted as a whole (all) sales of dtg ink.. I dont ever recall mark posting something that wasnt factual!! I understand that alot of folks have issues to resolve that come to this particular forum.. my knowledge is derived from many areas ink market/flaar reports/sign makers and forums/ speaking directly with ink manufactures etc etc..

I only speak from my experience regarding white ink printing, so nothing will change my opinion on an EPSONS ability to print white ink with success on a small volume using the dx5 head.. whether it be bagged, circulated, blended etc.. not printing white for a day or two and to have the printer have issues is not acceptable, especially if dtg isnt the only service you offer regarding garment decoration.. IMHO.. Its just not a good application with this head and im not certain that it is good for any printhead as based on conversations with ink manufactures and the properties of titanium dioxde.. Outside of dtg they have been at making a white ink for years with no success... 

we need a screenable white underbase to match or be compatible with the current dupont cmyk.. this will solve a multitude of issues and make white ink and dtg printing very desireable amongst many including screenprinters i beleive..


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## DAGuide (Oct 2, 2006)

Don-ColDesi said:


> @Jeff - a couple of points - we sell more direct to garment ink than just about anybody in the marketplace - our numbers indicate an almost 1-1 relationship of white ink to CMYK ink.


Don,

The numbers that Jeff is referring to are from this post of your's and what you restated above - http://www.t-shirtforums.com/direct-garment-dtg-inkjet-printing/t139991.html#post828395. I think everyone will agree that you use substantially more white ink compared to CMYK ink to print one dark garment. Running a job through your RIP and looking at the Status Message tab will verify this. On average, I have seen this number be between 8 to 10 times the amount of white ink as color with my MultiRIP GP product. This can obviously change depending on how the user creates the underbase. But for the purposes of estimating, I cut those numbers in half to 4 times the white ink compared to CMYK ink. I think this is more than fair to cover any wasted ink for maintenance / cleaning procedures, expired ink and misprinted shirts.

In running the pure numbers, you will see that 1 dark garment print uses 4 parts of white ink and 1 part of CMYK ink. Two dark garment prints uses 8 parts of white ink and two parts of CMYK ink. So for a distributor like your company to sell equal amounts of CMYK and white ink, that means the dtg users have to be doing something with the extra 6 parts of CMYK ink (i.e. printing light garments without white ink). This is why I made the statement that if you want to look at the numbers soley, one could believe that approximately 3/4 quarters of the garments printed are only using CMYK ink. Again, I am just looking at the pure numbers. (Charts below for illustration)

Hope this clarifies things as to what Jeff mentioned regarding my comments on this. By no means should this be viewed as a negative to your company or any other company.

Mark


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## 102557 (Mar 6, 2010)

DAGuide said:


> Don,
> 
> The numbers that Jeff is referring to are from this post of your's and what you restated above - http://www.t-shirtforums.com/direct-garment-dtg-inkjet-printing/t139991.html#post828395. I think everyone will agree that you use substantially more white ink compared to CMYK ink to print one dark garment. Running a job through your RIP and looking at the Status Message tab will verify this. On average, I have seen this number be between 8 to 10 times the amount of white ink as color with my MultiRIP GP product. This can obviously change depending on how the user creates the underbase. But for the purposes of estimating, I cut those numbers in half to 4 times the white ink compared to CMYK ink. I think this is more than fair to cover any wasted ink for maintenance / cleaning procedures, expired ink and misprinted shirts.
> 
> ...


Im sure these numbers would be consistent with other dtg ink dealers aswell.. It paints a clear picture of whats going on, and again if you deduct the numbers of white ink purchased from the higher volume shops what does that leave?

Brings me back to asking why someone hasnt introduced a screenable white underbase ink to resolve this issue with lower volume EPSON dtg printers!!

It involves a little more work for the screen set up but is a HUGE advantage in ink cost (eliminating pre treat aswell) and printer parts wear and tear from jetting the white, all the jetted white ink horror stories and customer service nightmares that the dealers reps deal with less cost to manufacturer the dtg/ one pass cmyk/ no registration issues on and on!! .. I think it would be a very viable method at the 6 plus shirt range.. you could also print your underbase transparency right on the dtg (exchanging the white ink for black)...

Someone should start listening and work on getting a screenable white ink for this application for lower volume printers, it will only benefit in sales and happy customers and the dtg industry!! IMHO

I mean seriously with the jetted white ink and pretreat reaching up to 3ish dollars per print on most images this could be done for pennies in comparisson with a screened white underbase.. not to mention drastically increased production time!!!

If it can be jetted it can certainly be screened.. I can only think of two reasons why not.. someone owns the patent on this process or the manufactures suppliers are just outright blind to the need and advantages of a process like this for epsons... well maybe three (there making to much money to care)!!!


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## abmcdan (Sep 14, 2007)

German - These guys did the screen print underbase a while back: Swinger DTG Swinger DGD blackbyrddesign blackbyrd Brother GT-541 Robert Lopez


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## 102557 (Mar 6, 2010)

abmcdan said:


> German - These guys did the screen print underbase a while back: Swinger DTG Swinger DGD blackbyrddesign blackbyrd Brother GT-541 Robert Lopez


YES.. thats what im referencing.. Im wondering why this hasnt been implemented for the epsons.. I was thinking for the blackbyrd guys there are to many epson models to manufacturer for.. additionally it was probably born out of the need for the brother 541 to print white...

however someone should have this for an white ink option for the epsons... I just dont see alot of effort being put into the epson dtg machines/ it seems its the same old technology with a new cover on it!!! or new model epson with the same dx5 head 1800/1900/2400/48xx...

why not incorporate a single screen (auto screen) load the platen/auto screen the base and then dtg cmyk on the way out?

the diydtg guys are catching up fast.. they already have the automation, i wouldnt be surprized if one of these guys dont come up with a screened solution or a white ink alternative before the manufactures do!! If a manufacturer offered an auto screened underbase with one of these units i would buy it yesterday!! [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkTps_1k4fo&feature=player_detailpage[/media]

I think the dtg technology from manufactures are lagging in a big way.. it seems the same copy of machines with different drives with nothing new to resolve the white ink issue...


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## abmcdan (Sep 14, 2007)

German,
Here are my thoughts why it isn't main stream.

1 - it takes away the convenience of having 1 machine do it all
2 - If you are a DTG only company it would be alot of expense and learning to do screens. Separation software to create underbase, rip software to print half tones, film printer, exposure unit, dark room, screen coating chemicals, and washout area. If you are already screen printing it would be an easier step. A large portion of DTG printers are in homes or office settings that won't allow for this.

However, I do see the upside to it. Cheap underbase ink and probably faster production times.

I think this is getting away from the original posters question about DTG white ink.


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## 102557 (Mar 6, 2010)

abmcdan said:


> German,
> Here are my thoughts why it isn't main stream.
> 
> 1 - it takes away the convenience of having 1 machine do it all
> ...


All valid points with some exceptions!! 

I think apipromo, is looking for a replacement solution aswell.. infact i know hes testing screen ink for an underbase... My replys are based on the end of his posted question "or do you think it needs to be approached from an entirely different angle" my answer is yes it does and there are better options available that manufactures are not tapping into..

1. the problem exists that this current white ink is not good for the low volume printer.. (it cant do it all in this senario) and you yourself have abandoned white ink aswell (not sure the size or setting of your shop..

2. you could take the additional printers and rip software/ separation software from the equation because you can print your underbase transparency with the dtg.. utilizing the rip that is there (your white underbase will now be printed to a transparency on the platen in black ink) Bam Done thats all you need for creating the single screen underbase!!

you could also use a capillary film for the screen otherwise you would need everything else associated with screen printing.. i still see this a far better solution than the current white ink/ pretreat cost.. the pretreat process is just as much hassel IMHO, or you could go spend another 5k on a pretreater to overcome this... see i think thats the true reason theres no screened ink solution as an option /there is to much money to be made in the market on ink/pretreat and equipt by the manufacturers/reps/resellers etc etc some times this gets in the way of a better approach for the consumer!! "the more ink and equipt the better they are cushioned by there wallet when sitting!! get my drift!

an even cheaper method on smaller runs one offs would be to use vinyl/cutter to create your screen.. 5 minutes and cheap material... of course this wouldnt work for detailed images but anything with a solid white background or simple logos/text it would work great... there are just so many better options than jetting white ink.. IMHO I know lots of people who would go this route if theres a white screened ink available to mesh with the dupont cmyk... someone will find this ink, then I think you will see alot of progress on this front!! some tests of this have already showed positive results with a few off the shelf screen print inks.. ESPECIALLY THE WASHABILITY.. some of the wash tests done with this showed no washout or 0 change from the original print.. those tests did show a black ink bleed/pooling when first printed.. i think with some different screen mesh tests and ink brands a good solution will exist.. JMHO

Let me ask you this aswell who could compete with someone screening the white ink compared to jetting it as far as cost???? no one.. you would at minimum double your production if not better.. with a conveyor dryer this is just non stop printing!!!


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## Don-ColDesi (Oct 18, 2006)

Jeff,

I like your conspiracy theories, you nailed it. That is why I drive a 1999 Expedition with 182,000 miles on it to work every day. 

Reality of why this has not been implemented is a combination of multiple things:

1. registration is very tough - you basically have to print the color image on a shirt, then move the shirt under the screen and do your registration - very time consuming - especially for the inexperienced screener
2. It is virtually impossible to get a screen to give you the accuracy that you get from the direct to garment printer itself
3. The hand would be much heavier than is associated with direct to garment
4. It would only be practical on mid-size runs

Hope this helps


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## 102557 (Mar 6, 2010)

Don-ColDesi said:


> Jeff,
> 
> I like your conspiracy theories, you nailed it. That is why I drive a 1999 Expedition with 182,000 miles on it to work every day.
> 
> ...


 
Don,
my statement was directed at the industry as a whole.. as far as the capitol it generates why change something that generates alot of revenue? expensive white dtg ink,pretreat/pretreat machine and all the repair parts for the epson printers printheads capping stations etc etc.. im no fool!!!

you and i both know if this white is screened its pennies in comparrison!!

registering ONE screen is very easy.. the dtg prints in the same location everytime!!

I think anything over 6-7 shirts is viable.. simple math screen cost vs white dtgink/pretreat cost per print and the time to do both! additionally if you use a capillary film the senario gets better... nothing directed at you just a general conversation and i wouldnt expect any different answer from someone whom profits from the industry..

I think the hand would be acceptable especially if its saving me 2-3 dollars per print on dark shirts!!


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## Don-ColDesi (Oct 18, 2006)

Jeff,

The challenges we ran into were that the water based white inks we tried didn't do a good job at holding the direct to garment inks and you couldn't replicate the same underbase that the DTG would print (the screen printed would be much less detailed and heavier. Perhaps I am ingnorant here, but how much time and expense goes into the exposure of a screen (emulsion, film, ink for film, time associated with process including taping off pin holes and finally reclaiming the screen)?


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## zoom_monster (Sep 20, 2006)

I'm with Don on this. It could be argued on a job by job basis what would cost less, but the time for the separations, the screen, the set up, teardown and resources used in a less than 10 shirts scenario doesn't make sense. People are willing to pay for the covenience by paying a higher cost of ink and time. If they want cheaper there are solutions available. We already have control of that.

I agree we're between a rock and a hard place in respect to the price of the ink and the speed. Unless 3 or 4 more players come into the ink business, the price of ink will not get much cheaper for most of us. Look at the desktop printer business models. If more effeicient "industrial" set-ups that can compete with screening in the speed realm for 6 and 24 dozen, more big players will create more oportunity. Right now, DTG has a conveniece factor from the quality of the artwork that has to be created all the way to the low resources that have to be used to create small runs. If you want to create any system that ups the quality, I'm all for it.... more power to those who innovate. I think a hybrid system with ink jets and possibly screens on a rotary setup probably would work. The question is is it more complex and more prone to breakdown (mechanical, spray tack, bigger learning curve for new users etc.) or is it better to take the dream idea as it is and find better components to make it work like invisioned. Think about how much progress was made in the screenprint industry in the '70s, then look at the 80's and 90's. More and better is just around the corner....


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## 102557 (Mar 6, 2010)

Don-ColDesi said:


> Jeff,
> 
> The challenges we ran into were that the water based white inks we tried didn't do a good job at holding the direct to garment inks and you couldn't replicate the same underbase that the DTG would print (the screen printed would be much less detailed and heavier. Perhaps I am ingnorant here, but how much time and expense goes into the exposure of a screen (emulsion, film, ink for film, time associated with process including taping off pin holes and finally reclaiming the screen)?


 
I cant say as to the qauility of the underbase because we havnt found anything suitable yet! however some of the test look very promising!! i know if the white can be jetted it can certainly be screened with a compatible ink!! (this is being done with the swinger and brother 541 already)

screen cost using capilary film or even emulsion would be very practical at the 6+ shirt range at a fraction of the cost.. keep in mind you would be printing your screen transparency with the dtg (simply replacing white ink for black) so there are no extra software or separations involved, just a screen (1) and it only need be registered once..

the cost is nothing compared to dtg printing the white, as i said you would be eliminating the pretreat and 2/3 per print white dtg ink!! If you start adding the cost of replacement parts for the epson (printheads,capping station etc.. well it becomes very attractive fast!!

the cost alone makes it worth it/ I dont see a REAL white ink solution with and epson head at its 1.5 picolitre drop size, a bigger head would be needed like the brothers or kornits which will also sacrifice resolution.. so whats the best of both worlds thats a doable solution screened white base with a high resolution cmyk print.. JMHO..


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## spiderx1 (Oct 12, 2009)

Interesting Thread, and right on target. There is a market for a screened white ink and DTG combo for the guy doing 10 plus shirts requiring high resolution graphics. The screen guys about washability the DTG guys brag about detail and resolution. Put the two together. Is it good for one offs. Certainly not. How about 10 plus, you bet. Be interesting to know how many white underbase shirts are printed in less than 10 qty per order. Most of my orders range from 20-50 shirts. I think with the rising cost of print heads less and less people will be using the printable white. They cannot afford to lose the heads. As Justin said, high quanity users of white ink have little problems, but the middle range guy just flushs ink down the drain to keep the head exercised or risk losing a head. I think the mfgs need to get ahead of this problem. Or it will be done for you. Either way you lose business. Out there is an ink combo that will work for this and it will be found. I agree that it is not for everyone, but it would be great for many of the mid-range users.
My plan would be to offer cmyk on light shirts for small qty orders, dark shirts on 10 or more 1 sided. Registration appears difficult at first glance, but not that bad when you really look at it.
Not any worse than screen printing with an outline on letters, but now you have a million colors.
So who is going to step up to the plate??? I know of one Screen Printing Supply company that is already activly working on it. Anybody else???


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## abmcdan (Sep 14, 2007)

I'm down to finding the right ink combination that works the best. I seem to have the alignment issues down. I'll have my newly designed Mod 1 platens shortly that will also make it easier.


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## spiderx1 (Oct 12, 2009)

Several ways to go at the registration. One is a keyed platen that can be removed and screened off machine, other is to have a docking tab that locks the platen in the same place everytime when it comes full out and is ready for the screen. This minimizes any movement when screening ink. The screen can also be on a flip up type mount with off contact adjustments. Or using an asian line style keyed tabs. Keep us posted on inks.


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## abmcdan (Sep 14, 2007)

Lucky for me Belquette put 4 balls on the bottom of the Mod 1 platens. This allows you to remove the platen from the machine and put it back and the registration will still be on. I've created a 1 color press that also holds this platen.


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## spiderx1 (Oct 12, 2009)

Perfect. Then the same four ball type mounts for the 1 color press.
Print the cmyk image on paper on the platen, remove and place in mounts on press, align screen and now you are ready to screen and print. Have multiple platens and rock away.


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## hal (Aug 10, 2007)

abmcdan said:


> After 3+ years of DTG printing I've come to the conclusion that printing with white inks wasn't worth the extra hassle. For us printing DTG on darks was very popular but gave us the most problems and had the lowest margins. We converted our machine to CMYK only.
> 
> 
> 
> Do you know if a Veloci-jet can be converted to CYMK? Do this me I can then print on white tees? Please give me any info you have.


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## DAGuide (Oct 2, 2006)

hal said:


> Do you know if a Veloci-jet can be converted to CYMK? Do this me I can then print on white tees? Please give me any info you have.


I believe Harry and Alex just asked in the last week or so that they are going to come out with a new driver to run the Veloci-Jet in Dual CMYK mode. You should contact them for more details.

Mark


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## hal (Aug 10, 2007)

So, do you use the same inks without the white on white shirts? How is this working out?


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## abmcdan (Sep 14, 2007)

Hal,

If you're referring to how does my dual CMYK work. It uses the same color dupont ink you use now but it runs 2 channels for each color instead of 1 when you have white ink. This allows you to lay more ink down so you can do 1 pass of color where you used to do 2.

So far it's working out good. However it does limit what color of shirts you can print on.


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## hal (Aug 10, 2007)

abmcdan said:


> Hal,
> 
> If you're referring to how does my dual CMYK work. It uses the same color dupont ink you use now but it runs 2 channels for each color instead of 1 when you have white ink. This allows you to lay more ink down so you can do 1 pass of color where you used to do 2.
> 
> So far it's working out good. However it does limit what color of shirts you can print on.




Thanks Abmcdan. I own a Brother now which works great. Thinking of changing to CYMK and forgetting the white ink. Could you compare the quality with the Brother?


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## FatKat Printz (Dec 26, 2008)

You don't have the VJ anymore?


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## 102557 (Mar 6, 2010)

spiderx1 said:


> Interesting Thread, and right on target. There is a market for a screened white ink and DTG combo for the guy doing 10 plus shirts requiring high resolution graphics. The screen guys about washability the DTG guys brag about detail and resolution. Put the two together. Is it good for one offs. Certainly not. How about 10 plus, you bet. Be interesting to know how many white underbase shirts are printed in less than 10 qty per order. Most of my orders range from 20-50 shirts. I think with the rising cost of print heads less and less people will be using the printable white. They cannot afford to lose the heads. As Justin said, high quanity users of white ink have little problems, but the middle range guy just flushs ink down the drain to keep the head exercised or risk losing a head. I think the mfgs need to get ahead of this problem. Or it will be done for you. Either way you lose business. Out there is an ink combo that will work for this and it will be found. I agree that it is not for everyone, but it would be great for many of the mid-range users.
> My plan would be to offer cmyk on light shirts for small qty orders, dark shirts on 10 or more 1 sided. Registration appears difficult at first glance, but not that bad when you really look at it.
> Not any worse than screen printing with an outline on letters, but now you have a million colors.
> So who is going to step up to the plate??? I know of one Screen Printing Supply company that is already activly working on it. Anybody else???


 
I agree with this 100% and is exactly what i have been saying thru out this thread!!! to me this is just a common sense no brainer for low to mid volume dtgers using epson machines wanting to print white.. I think this is reality for the epson machines to continue to be used and marketed for dtg applications, other wise this subpar option of jetting white will wear out and the epson based machines will die out and be discountinued.. the epsons are a great unit printing cmyk not white for low to mid volume printers and the cost associated with it!!!

the option of adding a single screen for underbaseing whould open a huge avenue for epson based machines and its manufactures providing a real and cost effective method of printing white ink.. lowering cost and production time are the two biggest benefits IMHO... i think you would see more screen printers take an interest in dtg aswell.. otherwise there is a need to go to a different head thats user friendly for jetting white like the kornits and brothers, again this does sacrifice the resolution and prolly would increase price on the machine by requiring either a ground up build or another brand printer with alot of r&d time and investment moving to a different brand.. 

I think some r&d should be put into the screened white option and stick with the current epson base keeping the machines to reasonable cost while still achieving all the objectives.. as you said randy based on orders mine have came in at the 10 plus shirt quanity order aswell.. like you also said i know some screen print ink manufactures have took an interest in this aswell and are testing some applications with this, its just smart business IMHO..


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## tortelvis (Jun 21, 2008)

I have a thought about white waterbase screen printing ink. Has anyone ever tried printing wet. Not curing the white screen ink then using the dtg to print cmyk? I screen print using a platen with micro-tuners mounted directly on the screen. This allows me to set my image on the shirt and then fine tune alignment with the micro-tuners. I see no reason why this could not be applied to a diy-dtg like the t-dozer. Simply use the dtg to print a test image on a shirt using the dtg platen. Then use the micro tuners on the screen to line up image then once it's aligned it is always aligned and you can run them. Check out you-tees on YouTube for the screen print micro tuners I have mentioned. Interested in any thoughts.


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## spiderx1 (Oct 12, 2009)

tortelvis said:


> I have a thought about white waterbase screen printing ink. Has anyone ever tried printing wet. Not curing the white screen ink then using the dtg to print cmyk? I screen print using a platen with micro-tuners mounted directly on the screen. This allows me to set my image on the shirt and then fine tune alignment with the micro-tuners. I see no reason why this could not be applied to a diy-dtg like the t-dozer. Simply use the dtg to print a test image on a shirt using the dtg platen. Then use the micro tuners on the screen to line up image then once it's aligned it is always aligned and you can run them. Check out you-tees on YouTube for the screen print micro tuners I have mentioned. Interested in any thoughts.


Yes, wet on wet is being tried and would be the fastest way to do it assuming we can get the ink compatible. 
The micro tuners u refer to would be one way to get the screen aligned with the platen and is similar in theory to the Asian line table. 
Sounds like you are on the right track thanks for jumping in.


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## 4C Print Shop (Sep 8, 2010)

Don there is no hard evidence to support you argument that Often times those who are drawn here are here because they have had issues. You are only saying that to validate you point


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## hal (Aug 10, 2007)

FatKat Printz said:


> You don't have the VJ anymore?



I do, in fact they just sent me a replacement machine, but I really don't hold out much hope that this one is any better than the 1st. I'll keep you updated.


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## 102557 (Mar 6, 2010)

For those interested in the screen printed white and dtg color over.. randy had some awesome results using a plastisol white (pvc) and ecosolve inks.. heres the link http://www.t-shirtforums.com/diy-dtg/t120740-182.html#post918187 randy and i had this discussion over the phone, we figured the plastisol (pvc) would be the easiest to incorporate because they already print to pvc with ecosolvents.. the better option is waterbased whites we will see what we discover testing!! thanks randy..

I think we are going to find similar results with a white waterbase as well.. matsui and some others are starting to supply some sample ink for testing... a solution is coming preferably waterbase but i will accept the plastisol if nothing else!!


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## abmcdan (Sep 14, 2007)

matsui white didn't really work for me. If I put on enough CMYK to have bright colors they bled all over. I tried both wet on wet and flash curing inbetween the white and the cmyk. If I lower my ink output it prints and washes fine but with muted colors.

I have 3 more inks on there way, hopefully will have them next week.


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## abmcdan (Sep 14, 2007)

I've created us a new thread to keep all of our screen printing underbase discussion together: http://www.t-shirtforums.com/direct-garment-dtg-inkjet-printing/t154138.html#post918311


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## 102557 (Mar 6, 2010)

abmcdan said:


> matsui white didn't really work for me. If I put on enough CMYK to have bright colors they bled all over. I tried both wet on wet and flash curing inbetween the white and the cmyk. If I lower my ink output it prints and washes fine but with muted colors.
> 
> I have 3 more inks on there way, hopefully will have them next week.


also what mesh screen where you using? or did you try sevral?


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## abmcdan (Sep 14, 2007)

We tried 110 and 156. The 110 is going to give you the best coverage with just one hit of the white.


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## Don-ColDesi (Oct 18, 2006)

mrdean78 said:


> Don there is no hard evidence to support you argument that Often times those who are drawn here are here because they have had issues. You are only saying that to validate you point


Dean,

Their has to be some level of trust in regards to experience. I can look at the number of machines we have sold versus the number of folks who have that have had "issues" - the ratio is far smaller than the ratio of users here on the forum that have had issues to those who have not. While I may fail in regards to watching my tongue from time to time here when I allow things to get under my skin, I maintain my position with integrity - and don't fabricate information in order to validate any points.

Forgive me if you feel that I have led you and others to think this way.

Peace,


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## DAGuide (Oct 2, 2006)

Below is an interesting post from a co-founder of Anajet that has subsequently moved on. You can see this post in this thread on Page 2 - http://www.t-shirtforums.com/member-introductions/t154061.html. This is coming from an Epson-based dtg manufacturer that has always used a closed ink system. Not saying that I agree with everything 100%, but this is his perspective.

Mark



TDF1011 said:


> My new business venture is very exciting. My partner who has been a premier innovator and producer of transfer films have been good friends since 1994. For many years this opportunity to work together was available, but there were always many other business commitments that stood between us.
> 
> After a very frustrating experience with dtg machines, I finally parted ways in Year 2009 and organized The TDF Group. You can read more about the company through our website. topdogfilm.com . Our products are proven winners; we just never sold them under our name.
> 
> ...


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## 102557 (Mar 6, 2010)

DAGuide said:


> Below is an interesting post from a co-founder of Anajet that has subsequently moved on. You can see this post in this thread on Page 2 - http://www.t-shirtforums.com/member-introductions/t154061.html. This is coming from an Epson-based dtg manufacturer that has always used a closed ink system. Not saying that I agree with everything 100%, but this is his perspective.
> 
> Mark


I agree with most aswell.. however i dont think this film deal is the solution either.. especially with prices quoted on there website at 1.75 a square foot hardly economical additionally it looks to require weeding another time consuming effort not to mention print time!

I think i would rather screen print altogether than pay those prices.. it just seems screen printing is hard to beat as far as cost on decent size runs.. Im seeing more and more the traditional method of screen printing still stands strong especially if you include white ink printing with a dtg and its associated costs and maint!!! 

Hopefully we can get a compatible screen print white for dtg.. this would be the ultimate imho.. other wise im going to look to screen printing as the current best method maybe consider buying a small auto after i get an understanding of it.. still think the white screened with dtg over is the answer or best of both worlds!! i cant see any all in one unit manufactures going after this because its patented, however maybe a few aftermarket add on systems will entertain the idea.. i really see it the only way the epson units staying in production once people learn what a P.I.T.A white ink printing is there is another used dtg on ebay!!!

Just look at the dtg/screenprint posts alot of complaints and trouble for dtg and the screen printing is more of a learning forum!! dont get me wrong i love the epson for printing cmyk but white ink thru my epson will never happen again... unless some miracle ink appears.. (doubtful by the very nature of titanium dioxide and its seperation issues..


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## 102557 (Mar 6, 2010)

speaking of white ink.. i was watching this video of the aeoon? printer. they apparently didnt have there pretreat set up for the white ink printing but watching this thing print cmyk... holly cow!! is it fast..

to top it off in the vid there talking 80 euros or dollars? a litre for ink.. I think these guys have it for sure.. but i wonder what the machine cost is!! there also talking about making a unit in between the epsons and there monster!!

YouTube - ‪Scott Fresener interviews Aeoon - the next generation of digital T-Shirt printers‬‏


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## IDI (Jan 26, 2011)

I think the part most often left out of the equation is that IF you are a screen printer, it frees up your equipment from running the 1 and 2 piece runs. It also offers a solution to the (We forgot one kids tshirt and he HAS to have it even though its a dark shirt with 7 colors" problem. Good customers don't always need 500 piece runs, and it sucks to turn them away 

just my .02


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## DAGuide (Oct 2, 2006)

german13 said:


> I agree with most aswell.. however i dont think this film deal is the solution either.. especially with prices quoted on there website at 1.75 a square foot hardly economical additionally it looks to require weeding another time consuming effort not to mention print time!
> 
> I think i would rather screen print altogether than pay those prices.. it just seems screen printing is hard to beat as far as cost on decent size runs.. Im seeing more and more the traditional method of screen printing still stands strong especially if you include white ink printing with a dtg and its associated costs and maint!!!


I think it depends on the artwork (i.e. number of colors, detail of the design) and the number of shirts ordered. If there are two solid colors and 3 shirts, then vinyl is the best method in my opinion. If you have one color (white) with a detailed artwork with fades and 24 shirts, screen printing would work. But if you have 6 colors and 12 shirts, then dtg printing is the way to go. I really think each application has its place.

I have seen the Blackbird prints about 2-3 years ago at the ISS Long Beach Show in Direct2Shirt's booth with Robert Lopez doing the demo using just the discharge ink (not the white discharge ink). I was not impressed with the final print and the area around the heat press did not smell good. I believe someone posted on the old Screen Printing University forum that the washability was not good either. I understand the concept, but I will wait till I see it work in person and perform a wash test. Otherwise, it falls into the same category as a white ink with no pretreatment needed or a white ink without titanium dioxide. Everyone would love to see it, but it just has not made it to market just yet.

Mark


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## DAGuide (Oct 2, 2006)

german13 said:


> speaking of white ink.. i was watching this video of the aeoon? printer. they apparently didnt have there pretreat set up for the white ink printing but watching this thing print cmyk... holly cow!! is it fast..
> 
> to top it off in the vid there talking 80 euros or dollars? a litre for ink.. I think these guys have it for sure.. but i wonder what the machine cost is!! there also talking about making a unit in between the epsons and there monster!!
> 
> YouTube - ‪Scott Fresener interviews Aeoon - the next generation of digital T-Shirt printers‬‏


Yeah, it looks cool. I never did hear way the price is on the printer. I think Peter mentioned that the print heads are $6,000.00 each. Not sure the number of print heads there are. The video did mention they were working on a single platen printer using the Spectra heads, but not sure if they will print at the same speed. Their hope for this machine would be in the 40,000 to 50,000 euros.

I guess we will know more about this come the SGIA Show in October.

Mark


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## quickflicks (Mar 30, 2011)

DAGuide said:


> Yeah, it looks cool. I never did hear way the price is on the printer. I think Peter mentioned that the print heads are $6,000.00 each. Not sure the number of print heads there are. The video did mention they were working on a single platen printer using the Spectra heads, but not sure if they will print at the same speed. Their hope for this machine would be in the 40,000 to 50,000 euros.
> I guess we will know more about this come the SGIA Show in October.
> Mark


*Here is an email from Kyocera.*

If you are not a printer OEM, then what will be your goal?

 Are you thinking to license your prototype printer?

2. If you purchase 4 pcs of our printheads and 1 set of our driving/PCI board from us,
 the total cost will exceed $50,000. Is this within your expectation or exceeding your planned budget?

_BTW I signed a NDA and can not disclose more._


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## colorfinger (Mar 30, 2009)

DAGuide said:


> I think it depends on the artwork (i.e. number of colors, detail of the design) and the number of shirts ordered. If there are two solid colors and 3 shirts, then vinyl is the best method in my opinion. If you have one color (white) with a detailed artwork with fades and 24 shirts, screen printing would work. But if you have 6 colors and 12 shirts, then dtg printing is the way to go. I really think each application has its place.


I agree with you 100% Mark... You have to learn a number of imaging techniques to be competitive. Apply the appropriate technique under the conditions of the design and sale.

I think the question remains, "What white backing technique do I use if I have 6 colors on 12 BLACK shirts?"

I for one am enamored with the idea of using a vinyl cutter to cut the background and adhering it to a silk screen. Quick way to screen a white background for DTG with easy cleanup. (The cost of using screens is in the man hours creating and reclaiming the screens)

Now, if we can get this method down we have it nailed... IMHO

Bob ?;O)


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