# Versacamm Sp 300i vs DTG Printer



## Joe21 (Jan 20, 2011)

Hi everybody, yes I'm new to this so my I'm trying not to sound too stupid here's my question: 

I want to get into the business and have done a ton of research I am trying to decide wether to get into the Versacamm Sp 300i or a DTG Printer possibly an HM1 (or one priced close to the Versacamm currently around 13k). I am aware that both methods are different and different end users, I am aware of the maintanance issues of a DTG printer and the slowness (relative) of a Versacamm. Iám just starting so I wouldn't expect to print thousands of shirts just trying to figure with which method I can get more for my buck. Screen printing is out of the question. And I was trying to go beyond heat transfers and go for the better quality.

So if anybody can tell me if they had these two options Versacamm or DTG printer which one they would go with and why? I would highly appreciate. Thanks in advance.

Need to add/edit my business will only contemplate t-shirts no banners, stickers or decal. I was looking at the Versacamm because its print/cut and would get better quality than heat transfers. So please pass down some experience.

Joe


----------



## TahoeTomahawk (Apr 12, 2006)

We have DTG printers and a vinyl cutter (not print / cut).

We've outsourced a few jobs at a customers request for print/cut vinyl done on a Versacamm, in my opinion it looks terrible on a T-shirt. The print quality and details were ok, but the over design was a big piece of vinyl on a high end American Apparel T-shirt. It makes it look home made even.
The end customers also complained that they paid close to $30 for a high-end garment but the design was on a big piece of plastic.

We do alot of business with our vinyl cutter, doing 1-2 color jobs and never have complaints. I think with 1 color designs it's ok for them to have a more tough / durable feel to it.

If I invested in a Versacamm, I would not use it for T-shirt's, Id stick to signs and other printed material.


----------



## damdesigns (May 24, 2008)

Ha... good question... I actually have both machines and have done both, if you send me a box with postage, I can send you two shirts same design both processes and you can choose. If you are only going to do t-shrits, I would go with DTG here are some reason: 
Faster production per shirt
lower cost
better look and feel
Versacamm
Weeding designs take up time
Have to mask each design which means buying masking
Designs are heavy and some look like cheap heat transfers. 
but with the Versacamm you have the ability to do much more than with DTG ie, Banners, decals/bumper stickers, one way mesh graphics. 

this is my opinion, but just did a job with the versacamm of 170 shirts and it took 3 weeks from start to finish.. Only reason why I did it with the versacamm is my DTG went down and had to wait for my viper to come in....


Kenny


----------



## idonaldson (Sep 29, 2008)

I almost fell for this post, I am not going to touch it! Ok what the heck, I am a Cammer, not DTGer. I love with all my heart - DTG concept. In my new life I visit many parts of these united States, and when I see customers using DTG devices - they kind of resemble frankenstiens. I am going to wait one more generation before I jump in. The best I seen would be Neoflex, but until I see a shirt come out of a sealed box and printed in front of me and washed in a machine - I will not be buying any on the market. 
Now the Camm - good steady device - SP(2heads) a little slow compared to the VP(4heads) but relatively no maintenance or ink issues when compared to the other process. So lets just say for argument sake you have 10 individuals forming a club and they need vests, shirts, to promote their new group, decals for their vehicle. With DTG you are doing a hellevu a good pretty shirt with shadings and realistic effects, etch - but everything else is subcontracted out. Now with the Camm you can put their logo on the vest with the right vinyl, you can change out the vinyl and do posters, load banner material and make banners, you can change out that vinyl and do decals or vehicle wraps (not ideal on the 300 unless mini cooper - but possible), you can also do promo items etc. The versacamm - forgive me for typing this - is more versitile - I don't believe I typed that. So do a business plan (joking - carryover from another post) - no seriously determine your market and what you want to offer. See both machine work in front of you with something you want to do, no can presentation. After you see both and your knowledge level can handle either application, your choice will be clear. And if you need a place to record your results, try your business plan.


----------



## idonaldson (Sep 29, 2008)

I had to jump back in, not bashing the DTG - but for those who have both machines - how often does that piece of equipment go down compare to the VC. In doing the maintenance on both machines which one is more critical and more often? Please add those comments for Adam. As for the plastic feel, 100 percent on board and why I love DTG. With that said - if I doing a large design I am using better vinyl which cost more - but the hand is lighter - stretchier and do not feel like you are wearing a shield.


----------



## TahoeTomahawk (Apr 12, 2006)

idonaldson said:


> when I see customers using DTG devices - they kind of resemble frankenstiens. I am going to wait one more generation before I jump in.


Yea some of the older machines do look like science experiments. Many of us who still have older machines run them with the cover off and use bagged ink to prevent clogging and starvation.

The latest DTG printers are far better put together and designed than the older gen, for example here is a comparison of my old Kiosk and my new MOD1
http://www.t-shirtforums.com/direct-garment-dtg-inkjet-printing/t78753-2.html#post705501

And here it is again doing some printing.
http://www.t-shirtforums.com/belquette/t121824.html#post717805

Far different than the older gen printers and no longer look like science experiments.


----------



## idonaldson (Sep 29, 2008)

My point exactly Adam, Nice job - but I am bias I am an Army guy so it is hard for me to see wrong when I see any military decals.


----------



## damdesigns (May 24, 2008)

Yes you are correct as I stated before we have both machines DTG Viper and Versacamm 300VPi and we do a lot of clubs, motorcycles, social, and Army units and I use the Versacamm to make the clubs stickers, banner and alot more. DTG has to be the way for t-shrits.... I had my first DTG machine, Kiosk 2 for over two years, and it paid for itself within the first 6 months and made over 100K in two years. Now I had the Versacamm for a year and barely broke 20K the first year. The cost associated with the Versacamm when doing T-shirt is far over what the DTG cost per shirt. Yes you can use better media for T-shirts but then you bring your profit margin down. Then you have to weed it and if you saw the last one I had you would be amazed... it took 20 minutes to print and cut two designs, 170 designs later WOW. Then they had to be weeded and masked the pressed. DTG Print press done...


----------



## Joe21 (Jan 20, 2011)

Thanks Adam, all the videos I´ve seen sell the Versacamm as the best invention after slicest bread! This is a real eye opener!


----------



## Joe21 (Jan 20, 2011)

damdesigns said:


> Yes you are correct as I stated before we have both machines DTG Viper and Versacamm 300VPi and we do a lot of clubs, motorcycles, social, and Army units and I use the Versacamm to make the clubs stickers, banner and alot more. DTG has to be the way for t-shrits.... I had my first DTG machine, Kiosk 2 for over two years, and it paid for itself within the first 6 months and made over 100K in two years. Now I had the Versacamm for a year and barely broke 20K the first year. The cost associated with the Versacamm when doing T-shirt is far over what the DTG cost per shirt. Yes you can use better media for T-shirts but then you bring your profit margin down. Then you have to weed it and if you saw the last one I had you would be amazed... it took 20 minutes to print and cut two designs, 170 designs later WOW. Then they had to be weeded and masked the pressed. DTG Print press done...


Kenny my plan is strictly t-shirts as I see from your experience and the rest of these guys if I were going that avenue I should go DTG, however isn´t pretreatment and maintanance a pain in the a...?


----------



## TahoeTomahawk (Apr 12, 2006)

Joe21 said:


> Kenny my plan is strictly t-shirts as I see from your experience and the rest of these guys if I were going that avenue I should go DTG, however isn´t pretreatment and maintanance a pain in the a...?


Not really anymore ... don't really want to highjack this thread about the Versacamm, but if you have any DTG specific questions we can start a new thread or you can PM me.


----------



## idonaldson (Sep 29, 2008)

Kenny I am not surrender and I do not negotiate with hostage takers. I love the DTG - I hate with a passion - weeding but I need a few more of the bugs worked out before I put 20k down for a DTG. I know there are cheaper ones - but they are even further away from the good end result. If you starting a business - if you are single focus - DTG - if you want to offer more VC.


----------



## Joe21 (Jan 20, 2011)

TahoeTomahawk said:


> Not really anymore ... don't really want to highjack this thread about the Versacamm, but if you have any DTG specific questions we can start a new thread or you can PM me.


Thanks Adam I´ll take you up on that.


----------



## DAGuide (Oct 2, 2006)

Both have their place and in the right business model with some marketing, both can be very profitable. One thing I will say is it is almost impossible to compare a printer that does not have white ink to one that does. As good as the Versacamm is, the Brother GT-541 printer has a similar reputation for reliability. From what I have heard, the new Roland printers with white ink for printing on labels can clog just like a dtg printer. 

Just my observation,

Mark


----------



## idonaldson (Sep 29, 2008)

Hi Mark, I will not defend Roland VS line for they do not have me on their payroll. Full disclosure I am trained on installing and servicing their machines. I have never been asked to do a service call to unclog white since the VS came to market. I will say the trick is getting the white and metallic into the chambers, but once done. See ya, off to the races. I am going to jump on the DTG bandwagon so I am making sure I am not a beta tester and the kinks are at least at sea level.


----------



## sandykay (Sep 29, 2009)

I have both the Versacamm and a DTG Viper. I bought the Viper 1 year before the Versacamm. Researched Thoroughly the DTG. I have personally seen most every kind available. Took my own art and had them printed on shirts at the ISS Show. Hands down, the Viper is absolutely the best to buy. I run mine non-stop everyday. What a Work horse. I can print 2 shirts, large 10.5 x 10.5 print with white underbase in 15-16 minutes. no white underbase much faster but most of my customers are willing to spend the extra for the underbase when they see the difference in Vividness. I progressed to the Versacamm because my t-shirt customers also wanted banners, and decals to match the art on their shirts. Also, the Versacamm was the best back-up for my viper if there is a time when I have maintenance issues. Yes, I do have issues from time to time but anytime you run a machine as much as I do, there are going to be things that come up. SWF East is absolutely wonderful about helping me. I cannot say enoughgood about my Viper and Versacamm. Go for the Viper, use SWF East you will later be wanting to add the versacamm to open up additional avenues of money that just come when you get into the t-shirt business. my E-mail is sandy@silversatchel.net if you have any questions, please feel free to email me


----------



## scuba_steve2699 (Nov 15, 2006)

Both have their place and have pluses and negatives. I still have not seen (IMHO) a DTG that does a good consistent job on dark garments and I will admit that the VersaCAMM has a much heavier hand on the same project. Not 100% perfect answer. Look at your business model and what each will provide to you and make it work!


----------



## spiderx1 (Oct 12, 2009)

As has been said time over in this thread each has it's place. I have both. If you just want to run t shirts. I would rather do DTG. For a wide range of jobs the VersaCamm is a money maker and a lot cheaper to operate than a DTG. Much easier maintenance as well.


----------



## HPS (May 13, 2010)

spiderx1 said:


> As has been said time over in this thread each has it's place. I have both. If you just want to run t shirts. I would rather do DTG. For a wide range of jobs the VersaCamm is a money maker and a lot cheaper to operate than a DTG. Much easier maintenance as well.


I had the sp 300 and now have the 540, wish I would have gotten the next model up with metallic ink but it was too long. I have not found a transfer material I like for garment printing. I prefer dtg over the transfers. I use a real thin stuff for under armor goods and i use vinyl for swetshirts and numbers on the jerseys and poly items but I would say i prefer dtg for prints and we make banners and stickers and with our 540. I have a competitor who does all his tees with transfers and swears that is what everyone wants though. I have had 0 requests for an actual transfer and when I show samples to people they all opt for dtg or screen printing on the tshirts.


----------



## spiderx1 (Oct 12, 2009)

My point was if you could only have one And wanted to do other things then I would go with versacamm. If just tees then I agree DTG.


----------



## HPS (May 13, 2010)

spiderx1 said:


> My point was if you could only have one And wanted to do other things then I would go with versacamm. If just tees then I agree DTG.


I agree with that, the versacamm has opened some doors with labels, vehicle graphics, door logos and like I said I have a competitor who says he sells a lot of tees using his. We are selling a fair amount of banners and doing more labels and yard signs now that we have ours. Plus there is the sports apparel stuff that the VC does like numbers and school names.


----------



## spiderx1 (Oct 12, 2009)

Yep, same here. If I have a graphic that is not solid as is a photo type. Such as names designs that are open etc then the versacamm works well. Pic of the kid for grandma it becomes like having a piece of paper glued to the shirt even with the expensive materials. Names etc done with the expensive opaque solutions material achieve a near silk screen feel. Weeding on larger graphics with detail can be a pain and time consuming. The prints show almost no fade if any. Sometimes I will mix the two. Dtg on back and cut or print cut small chest logo or name on front. 
I do consider it easier to make $$$ with the versacamm


----------



## RodJ (Apr 3, 2011)

I bought a Versamcamm a few years ago. It doesn't make much money. As a matter of fact, my $2000 vinyl cutter makes nearly 4 times as much net profit as the Versacamm does. We do decals, stickers, banners, and t-shirt printing with it. 

My original intention was to do transfers with it. We started with Solutions Opaque and that was a bust on the cotton shirts because it wrinkled badly after one wash and was terrible to weed thin lettering. I tried Colorprint, but it was too thick. When Quickprint came out, I was the first to convert. Granted, it's still kinda thick, but gets the job done. I've had very few repeat customers with it. I want to try the new Eco-Print to see how that is.

Stickers are not as easy as they sound - it takes experimenting with vinyls to cut to the edge without curling. Something that can really cost a lot because the rolls cost $100 or more each. I have to cure mine for 48 hrs on a flat table in sheets no more than 6 foot long to cut to the edge. Color settings are also important and it takes a lot of playing around with it to get colors to just right - and different vinyls print differently.

Banners are great if they are a white background. Full color banners are a pain because if you get one little spot with no ink, you have to start all over again. You can try sewing them ( not recommended ) or using banner tape and grommets. Takes some time to figure out the banner tape right to prevent creases too. A grommet setter is needed as well. You only make good money if you're doing several banners. Otherwise, it's not a huge profit margin on a single banner for the time involved.

Printing on polyester jerseys is about the only really good way to go with it. There is no other way to do full color graphics unless you love spending all day screen printing 14 jerseys with 7 screens.

Maintainence is a pain. Just after the first year our printhead had to be replaced. Thankfully, I had an extended warranty. Usual cost is about $1200/head plus a few hundred for installation. Wipers have to be cleaned regularly, need to do a print test every day, capping stations replaced every 3-6 months at about $130-$200 a visit, and it's not good to let it sit for more than a week without use.

We are currently researching a DTG machine because the Versacamm hasn't panned out for us. I may sell mine if the DTG works really well. I'd have to turn away small orders on polyester, but it's easier than keeping up with maintenance. Our main item is apparel and we just don't sell enough stickers and banners to keep it running a lot.


----------



## spiderx1 (Oct 12, 2009)

Wow totally different story than mine. I lost one head in 5 years because I moved and it sat for a month. Next time I came up with some unique cleanong techs that return printhead to top performance. The machine has firmware that cleans the head every 6 hours. Does use some ink but not much in the big scheme of things. 
My color profiles work great in versacamm. I still have original dampers and changed capping station twice and wipers 6 times in 5 years. I clean capping station area once a week 10 minutes. 
By using drying after printing and before cutting I have no curling problems. 
It also doubles as a std vinyl cutter. I had 3 and sold 2 because the versacamm did it all. 
It is far simpler than DTG, I have 3. 
If you think maint on a versacamm was time consuming wait until you get a DTG. 
There is a market for everything and everybody has diff experiences. But if you read the forum you will find very few complaints on versacamm and tons on DTGs. 
But once again for Tees I prefer DTG or screening. 
By the way there have been several firmware updates for the versacamm in the last 2 years and several for versaworks as well.


----------



## RodJ (Apr 3, 2011)

spiderx1 said:


> Wow totally different story than mine. ]
> 
> Yeah, I really expected it to do well and sell lots of small orders. Just that no one wanted a transfer. We also do embroidery and sublimation in shop, so sometimes I was able to go that route. Often times, it just wasn't what the customer wanted - they wanted ink, not a transfer.
> 
> ...


----------



## spiderx1 (Oct 12, 2009)

Where are you located??? I print on LG printing film 3 mil most of the time or on 3M Wrap Material 2 mil, I just did some on 3M 2mil high performance and had no curling. I cut 7,000 printed designs at 3/8" very small, and had not curling, I let dry for 3 min in machine with the heater on. Mine can set for a week as long as I leave the power on and it prints first time without issue. I always do a nozzle check but never have to do additional cleanings. Hmmmm


----------



## spiderx1 (Oct 12, 2009)

Sorry MOD 1 is an awesome printer, well built, use their bagged ink delivery system and you will be rock'n. But you will need to print every day or two.


----------



## RodJ (Apr 3, 2011)

spiderx1 said:


> Sorry MOD 1 is an awesome printer, well built, use their bagged ink delivery system and you will be rock'n. But you will need to print every day or two.



Running a test print isn't too bad. I run one every day on the Versacamm as it is and since I began doing that I haven't had any more clogged nozzles. 

I got some Eco-Print material to try for the tranfers. I'm excited to test it out as it's thinner and matte. Could be great.

Just had FIVE requests this week for orders less than 24 shirts with full color graphics and none of them wanted a transfer.  Even when I tell them how durable the transfer is they don't want it. We'll need to get the DTG.
Right now, it's a matter of streamlining our production for embroidery to make sure I have enough time to run it.
Once that is done I think we'll have enough time to set it up right and run it daily along with the usual embroidery orders.


----------



## RodJ (Apr 3, 2011)

spiderx1 said:


> Where are you located??? I print on LG printing film 3 mil most of the time or on 3M Wrap Material 2 mil, I just did some on 3M 2mil high performance and had no curling. I cut 7,000 printed designs at 3/8" very small, and had not curling, I let dry for 3 min in machine with the heater on. Mine can set for a week as long as I leave the power on and it prints first time without issue. I always do a nozzle check but never have to do additional cleanings. Hmmmm



I'm in Texas. I was a show in Austin and saw that a vendor was using Oracal 2.5 mil vinyl and doing straight cut with full bleed and no curling. So, I took some samples. One day later the vinyl curled a tiny bit, but nothing as bad as with 5 mil. Still, better than the 3.75 mil vinyl I used for decals a year ago. Weird, I thought it would curl more if it's thinner. Guess there is a lot of tension on thicker media. 

Or maybe the high performance LG is really HIGH PERFORMANCE.

I let mine dry with the heater for 5 minute. No dice, still getting curled vinyl with 3.75-5 mil vinyls.

Thinner vinyl feels kinda weak for a bumper sticker, though. I'm actually fond of the 5 mil stuff as it stacks really well and the release paper lays flat compared to 3.75 mil Oracal that curls badly when cut into small sections ( release backing paper curl, not vinyl ).

I've got about 100 decals sitting on the table for a few days right now drying for 48 hrs. After a cut it holds well now, no curling at all and I've got some that have sat around for a month. Just takes forever. 

Have you used much thicker vinyl or just wrap vinyl?
We don't do wraps, just decals/stickers/banners/transfers. The one time we had some 2.5 mil GMI vinyl it curled so bad after a print I nearly threw it all away - finally got rid of it after 6 months when I had a bunch of white border decals.

I've been making all my print/embrodiery customers a free sticker this month and giving them a promo price through May. So far, one nibble. Anything to keep the Versacamm printing.


----------



## jsmith221 (Aug 2, 2013)

Hi everyone, I would like to weigh in on this as well. If you are going to do this as a business it's very important you think about your future customers and the designs they will give you. For the last 30 years screen printers have charged by color thus creating an entire generation of tshirt designers and clients that bring you one or two color designs. 

In my shop we currently have an anajet and have done thousands of shirts. Here is how we divide our projects. 

1. Anajet for one to many colors on light and dark shirts. When bright accurate colors are needed on many dark colored shirts we move to transfers.
2. We use versatranz for our transfers. The key here is to be able to fit at least 2 impressions on one 13X19 inch template. These guys are solid and we have done thousands of prints with them. 
3. In house stickers signs and some transfers. We use the BN20 to cut our vinyl and some very short run tshirt transfers. 

Bottom line is this: DTG cannot color match like screen printing especially the reds oranges and yellows etc. when a client has to have exacting color you will need to do transfers or vinyl from a customer quality standpoint. 

For many customers color match is not a huge issue but when it is you need to get ahead of the game and order transfers. 

Just my 2 cents.


----------

