# Virtuoso SG800 vs Ricoh SG7100dn



## dus7 (Oct 18, 2012)

Sorry to start my first thread with a question, but this is something Sawgrass does not want to answer.

I don't think anyone could answer this question other than Sawgrass or Ricoh so feel free to give your opinion or maybe you have done more research and know something I don't. They vaguely say it's different, but cannot give anything mechanically specific that is different.
I cannot find any specific parts *internally that are different* between the *SG800 and the 7100dn* other than the duplexer unit is not present on the SG800. I know about the new warranty, support, HD ink and other. They cannot give me any info telling me which specific parts are different. Either nothing is different or they don't know.

I've heard all the vague sales jargon and it's nothing but fluff. I've asked Sawgrass if the print head was different between the two printers and if the SG7100dn can use the new "HD" ink the other one can. You already know there was no answer to this question.

Thank you for reading my rant. My boss wants to purchase a Virtuoso 800. We've had Ricoh printers ever since the 7000. Some with Power Driver and some with ICC. I'm just afraid we're stuck in a loop.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

dus7 said:


> Sorry to start my first thread with a question, but this is something Sawgrass does not want to answer.
> 
> I don't think anyone could answer this question other than Sawgrass or Ricoh so feel free to give your opinion or maybe you have done more research and know something I don't. They vaguely say it's different, but cannot give anything mechanically specific that is different.
> I cannot find any specific parts *internally that are different* between the *SG800 and the 7100dn* other than the duplexer unit is not present on the SG800. I know about the new warranty, support, HD ink and other. They cannot give me any info telling me which specific parts are different. Either nothing is different or they don't know.
> ...


Keep in mind that Sawgrass is not an electronics manufacturer. 

I'm a EE so I'll comment on a electronics manufacturing viewpoint.

The cost of tooling to make most products that are designed as high volume consumer items (such as printers) are way way beyond anything Sawgrass makes in revenues. 

Electronics components like IC's and transistors etc are commodity items and cheap and can be bought in low volumes as well, as can the finished PCBA's as well. 

But things like print heads, cases, carriages, mechanisms etc. really are for the most part _custom_ and _unique_ to the printer only and require someone like an Epson or Ricoh to "pony up" big bucks for tooling to make these. These type of parts don't exist "off the shelf" like most of the electronics inside do. 

So to keep costs down tooling is amortized over hundreds of thousands or even millions of printers. A tool just for plastic injection molding of a cheap 25 cent "goop" of plastic can costs tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars. While this sounds like a lot of money if you are making millions of pieces then the cost is absorbed over millions of pieces. But this is why you or I can't go out and build a few printers on our own.

In the 90's I designed the electronics in cordless telephones and consumer phone products, the toolings alone for the base and handset cases cost over $100K, but we sold these in 10s of millions over the life of the tooling.

A printer has all kinds of parts inside that must be made custom, so it's not like SG can go buy those things off the shelf at Radio Shack. 

So the printer is just a private label of a Ricoh model with some inexpensive modifications. If you notice they took out things (features) that wasn't needed, it's much easier technically and cheaper wise to remove things than it is to add things. 

A new printhead I seriously doubt, I would think that "HD" ink _might_ be a new formulation and most certainly the printhead is highly likely to be the same as Ricoh uses on other models. 

But it is possible to "tune" the firing of the print head to the ink differently by changing firmware in the printer which can be done at low cost, no part costs since it's a software change inside an embedded processor and no physical part change. 

So it's _possible_ that this printer is otherwise a stock Ricoh but is tweaked a bit to work better with sub inks than a stock Ricoh would.

So new inks are possible, and tweaking the firmware controlling the print head is possible. Hard to say if that is actually the case but I would state it could be and is not out of the reach of Sawgrass financially to do that.

I also suspect that they tweaked the carts chips on the "new" product to only work with their carts to keep out competition, so could be the carts won't work cross platform and the Virtuoso printer needs to see the SG "code" on the cart when installing. Locking out competitor carts keeps their monopoly on the ink at least within their own branded product. But that's just my speculation. 

Someone would have to try the old SG carts with the new Virtuosa to know, assuming they are still the same fit. Or if a SG or a vendor would offer that info or not.

Perhaps a bit of hype and a little bit of uniqueness both I would suspect.


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## dus7 (Oct 18, 2012)

parrish, Thank you very much for your expertise in this field. 
*This is just the kind of info I was looking for!*

As a hobby I've done your typical homemade circuit board with the laser printer, inkjet photo paper and iron on the copper then etchant. It's primitive, but fun. So I understand, and I'm sure their equipment, parts, and manufacturing is way beyond my home built guitar effects pedal.


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## dus7 (Oct 18, 2012)

I thought I would post a followup. The company I work for got in a hurry and ordered the Sawgrass (Ricoh) SG800. 
Keep in mind we have two sg7100dn printers already.

So far the HD ink seems to be clogging less than the ink on the 7100, but it may be too early to tell.

Anyway, parrish you were absolutely correct as far as it being different from the 7100. The firmware is different. The new "HD" ink carts will not fit in the 7100, only in the sg800. Looks like they've flipped the fittings.
See image link:


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

dus7 said:


> I thought I would post a followup. The company I work for got in a hurry and ordered the Sawgrass (Ricoh) SG800.
> Keep in mind we have two sg7100dn printers already.
> 
> So far the HD ink seems to be clogging less than the ink on the 7100, but it may be too early to tell.
> ...


Great info. I would assume that SG wants to keep out 3rd party inks from being used in this printer. 

Can you clarify if SG has any patent number markings on those carts, or the carts packaging? Or with the printer literature inside the box specific to the inks? 

Most curious in that respect.


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## dus7 (Oct 18, 2012)

Sorry for the delay.
Yes, on the packaging of the carts and carts themselves it says "Sawgrass is the owner of the following patents: EP 778,798, EP 1,132,439, AU 768805, BR P19508651-0; CA 2,198,750, JP 3,727,343, MX 231,098, US 8425,029, US 8,632,175. One of these patents may apply to sale or use of this ink."


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

dus7 said:


> Sorry for the delay.
> Yes, on the packaging of the carts and carts themselves it says "Sawgrass is the owner of the following patents: EP 778,798, EP 1,132,439, AU 768805, BR P19508651-0; CA 2,198,750, JP 3,727,343, MX 231,098, US 8425,029, US 8,632,175. One of these patents may apply to sale or use of this ink."


Thanks. I also got that info from Johnson Plastics.

Note that those patents are all _new_ art and describe an additive to allow the inks to print at a faster speed.

This does not mean it applies to all sublimation inks broadly, those patents were done with the Ricohs in mind. And it doesn't mean that others cannot market sublimation inks, all they have to do is not include that additive.

Since we all used sublimation inks many many years before the art in those patents were conceived, it means it is possible to use sublimation inks without that specific art.

1. Sublimation ink is not patented by Sawgrass.

2. A specific additive(s), geared towards Ricohs, were claimed to improve ink flow at high speed printing in those patent. This doesn't mean that inks without them can't work. We all used inks before those patents that didn't have that art, this is proof that this cannot be used to exclude others from selling sublimation inks.


******************************************************************************************
Suggest that you not accuse others as infringing upon anyone's patents without proof of such a thing. It can damage another's business financially and could be deemed _libelous_, especially in a public forum where people involved in sublimation exchange ideas. 
******************************************************************************************** 

Just saying. 

Also note the "weasal" words, "One of these patents *may* apply to sale or use of this ink" LOL


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## digitalwoodshop (Jan 12, 2007)

After Market Sublimation Ink with auto reset carts has hit eBay for the 3110 and 7100... fyi.


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## tg30 (Apr 27, 2015)

Has anyone tried to use the 7100 ink and cartridges in the virtuoso 800 printer.
Thinking about getting one but have to use up quite a bit of 7100 ink.
To expensive to just toss out

thx


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## digitalwoodshop (Jan 12, 2007)

tg30 said:


> Has anyone tried to use the 7100 ink and cartridges in the virtuoso 800 printer.
> Thinking about getting one but have to use up quite a bit of 7100 ink.
> To expensive to just toss out
> 
> thx


I believe the Firmware in the new SG800 will cause the SG800 go into "Tilt Mode" if you install a Sawgrass "R" Ink Cart OR the Aftermarket Carts and ink. Don't know this for sure but I believe it is part of the SG800 protection from using aftermarket ink like the eBay Carts. You cannot just plug in the Sublijet "R" Ink or the old 7100 ink cart into the SG800 because the security fins will actually prevent you from installing it.

From the Chip the first set of security fins are coded to prevent you from installing the wrong color in the wrong spot. The 2nd set of security fins, further from the chip are the SG800 only fins.

I know this as I have both the 3110 and the 7100 printers and had a problem getting the bright RED I wanted with the Sublijet "R" ink OR the Bulk eBay ink. The fix in the end was to start using the new Sawgrass HD ink that has a 26% bigger color gamut. To install the HD ink Cart in my 7100 I took a pair of needle nose pliers and removed the fins leaving the long length wise fin. I also installed the SG800 drivers. I just removed the fins furthest from the chip.

This lets me use my 7100 with the HD Ink for a more vivid colors.

I would print a few CMYK rectangles before you finish changing over. I found a difference between the "R" and "HD" ink... A good thing....

So in my opinion... Go for the new ink... Sell the "R" ink.

As a side note, I did find the eBay bulk aftermarket ink and the auto reset carts to give me the same results as the Sublijet "R" ink. I was very happy with the results but it could NOT produce the bright red like the "R" ink. So I give it a Thumbs UP. I now use it in my small 3110 printer to print Art Proofs for spelling checks just to use up the aftermarket ink just keep the backup printer working. I only have HD ink in the 7100 printer. I do a lot of Fire Accountability Tags with Firemen Pictures and Names and by printing it out it is easier to proof read for me.


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## SunState (Mar 5, 2014)

I have a Ricoh 3110 and when I ordered new ink from my supplier I noticed the packaging was different with the sawgrass in. My printer went into a error mode and my supplier had me contact SG and they had me go through some steps and download something.

I figured this "bug" and the Ricoh 3110 being sold as a SG printer is in response to after market in and keeping it from being used in these printers.

At least that was my intuition on this topic but I do wear a tinfoil hat too.


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## brandifitzarts (Oct 7, 2016)

tg30 said:


> Has anyone tried to use the 7100 ink and cartridges in the virtuoso 800 printer.
> Thinking about getting one but have to use up quite a bit of 7100 ink.
> To expensive to just toss out
> 
> thx


Interested in selling your extra 7100 Ink?


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