# TradeMark, CopyWrite, Lawyer?? HELP



## ELLECTRICFEEL (Dec 11, 2010)

Good Evening everyone! 
So, after 6 long Months in the garage my screen printing has finally produced promising results. And, I'm ready to get my business rolling. However, I have no idea where to start. I've decided to first trademark my name and logo before I register it as a business.
I have my name picked out and cannot find it anywhere else.
I have an EIN (Did I skip a step?)
Now what? 
I've read that you have to go through a process online and fill out an application in order to trademark/copywrite your name.. And I'm not sure which it is.. Trademark or Copywrite?
But, the process costs around 300 dollars.
One of my biggest concerns is, under this application and approval will both my name and logo be registered to me or would that have to be under two separate applications?
And when this application is filled out is an address required and would it be in my best interest to use my home address or the address of a P.O. box I intend to use??

This step is a douzy.. Much harder for me than building that darn Exposure Unit, lol.
Anyway.

Any feedback would be much appreciated.
The faster I can get this application out of the way the faster I can hit the market.
Thank you!


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## sunnydayz (Jun 22, 2007)

HI 

Glad to hear you got your screen printing down  Now about trademarking, there are two different types. Copyright is what you would do with your actual designs, so for your name you want to trademark. There are two different types of trademark. One where it is a trademark of just the words of the name, and one that is the trademark that incorporates a design to the name. Its best of you start here at the trademark site and read on how to do it, and what the differences are  Trademark Electronic Search System (TESS). Hope this gets you going in the right direction. Also remember to buy your domain name as well and register it. Buy both the .com and .net so that no one else can buy the same name


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## sunnydayz (Jun 22, 2007)

Oh and also once you apply for your name, you can start using the name by putting a circle with an R in it on your page. This shows that you have applied for the name and are doing business under it, but your trademark is not yet done. Once it is fully registered then you would change it to the regular circle with the TM in it. You don't have to wait to use the name as long as no one else is already using it, and for the same type of business as you.


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## Austin300 (May 24, 2009)

sunnydayz said:


> Oh and also once you apply for your name, you can start using the name by putting a circle with an R in it on your page. This shows that you have applied for the name and are doing business under it, but your trademark is not yet done. Once it is fully registered then you would change it to the regular circle with the TM in it. You don't have to wait to use the name as long as no one else is already using it, and for the same type of business as you.


 
I think you might have that backwards.

I hold several registered trademarks and according
the the U.S. trademark law firm I dealt with you
can only use the (R) registered trademark symbol
after it is approved and put on the register.

The TM or SM (Service Mark) are not regulated
by the federal govt. but are in fact regulated by
some states.

The TM or SM can normally be used when you
start out using your name brand and this gives
people notice that you are using it in good faith
and that it is your original mark.


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## Austin300 (May 24, 2009)

ELLECTRICFEEL said:


> Good Evening everyone!
> So, after 6 long Months in the garage my screen printing has finally produced promising results. And, I'm ready to get my business rolling. However, I have no idea where to start. I've decided to first trademark my name and logo before I register it as a business.
> I have my name picked out and cannot find it anywhere else.
> I have an EIN (Did I skip a step?)
> ...


 

First of all take a deep breath and realize that
the Trademark application looks difficult but
if you know what type of trademark you want
then it makes it much easier.

Many spend $$ and time getting a trademark
and find out later they didn't trademark properly.

You are wanting to trademark your clothing line
from what I can tell. 

When you apply the US trademark office will
assign an attorney to your file and they will 
look it over and search the name you wish to
use to make sure it isn't being used already.

They don't come out and tell you this but you
can indeed speak with them after they look it
over and they should be able to fix anything you
may have done incorrectly. 

Many have no idea what to type in the lines
when it comes to describing exactly what
they want to trademark.

Using the proper terminology is key when
describing the product you want to trademark.

I will post the application information that
Victoria Secret used for their PINK link of clothing
to show you an example of what might be used.



This is NOT legal advice but an example of 
what terminology you may be using.

Hope this helps


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## Austin300 (May 24, 2009)

*Word Mark **VICTORIA*'S *SECRET* PINK*Goods and Services*IC 025. US 022 039. G & S: SWEATERS; SCARVES; FOOTWEAR; SKIRTS; DRESSES; JEANS; TANK TOPS; COATS; JACKETS; SWEATPANTS; YOGA PANTS; HOODED SWEATSHIRTS; BOXERS; SHORTS; PAJAMAS; LEGGINGS; T-SHIRTS; CARDIGAN; CAMIS; HATS; JERSEYS. FIRST USE: 20040700. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 20040700

*Standard Characters Claimed**Mark Drawing Code*(4) STANDARD CHARACTER MARK

*Serial Number*85159962*Filing Date*October 25, 2010*Current Filing Basis*1A

*Original Filing Basis*1A

*Published for Opposition*April 26, 2011

*Registration Number*3992764*Registration Date*July 12, 2011

*Owner*(REGISTRANT) Victoria's Secret Stores Brand Management, Inc. CORPORATION DELAWARE Intellectual Property Manager Four Limited Parkway Reynoldsburg OHIO 43068

*Prior Registrations*2820380;2992758;3520974;AND OTHERS

*Disclaimer*NO CLAIM IS MADE TO THE EXCLUSIVE RIGHT TO USE "PINK" APART FROM THE MARK AS SHOWN

*Type of Mark*TRADEMARK

*Register*PRINCIPAL

*Live/Dead Indicator*LIVE


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## Austin300 (May 24, 2009)

Prior to getting your registered trademark (it takes months)

I would STRONGLY suggest you use your brand name
in interstate transactions.

Selling your product with label attached and shipped
to another state shows proof that you are using
your brand in business. This is important when you
start out because anyone can make up a brand
name and never use it but the fact that you are
in business and selling items with that brand is
important.

SAVE copies of checks or money orders people
mail to you showing that they purchased products
with your brand name on them. If your friends
order from you one state over ask them to hang
on to the shipping package with labels attached
and all receipts and shipping paperwork.

Simply putting a TM beside your company name
on a business card doesn't solidify your brand.
Interstate transactions on the other hand are
a very good way to show that you are the first
to use the brand and the documentation will 
back it up.


It's late and I may be rambling... but it's free advise
from someone who holds a few trademarks.

Hope it helps.


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## Austin300 (May 24, 2009)

*Word Mark VICTORIA*'S *SECRET* PINK*Goods and Services*IC 025. US 022 039. _G & S: SWEATERS; SCARVES; FOOTWEAR; SKIRTS; DRESSES; JEANS; TANK TOPS; COATS; JACKETS; SWEATPANTS; YOGA PANTS; HOODED SWEATSHIRTS; BOXERS; SHORTS; PAJAMAS; LEGGINGS; T-SHIRTS; CARDIGAN; CAMIS; HATS; JERSEYS. _FIRST USE: 20040700. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 20040700


This part in red is what people get confused about.

This is also the part that the Attorney assigned to
your file will be able to help you with.. If you are nice
to them. 


When you FIRST fill out the application and get in a jam
Pick up the phone while you are online and CALL
the trademark office. (not the attorney) 

They have people their paid by your taxes that
will guide you through this application.

So many people get online and mess this up but
TRUST me .. Call them and have your application
on your computer screen and they will help you.

If there is a problem later and trust me they may
send you an email that looks like your brand is doomed
then is the time to call and speak with the attorney
handling the file. A few words changed and a better
written description is all that most need to complete
the application and move it on for registration.


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## ELLECTRICFEEL (Dec 11, 2010)

Thank you. That is very helpful but I'm still confused as to how I should file this in my case. Yes it's for a clothing brand. But, also for a service. I have a brand name and also a logo. Would separate applications have to be filed?


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## Austin300 (May 24, 2009)

That is always the big question before applying
for a trademark and that is why attorneys are
there. Now that I said that .......

You can submit an application for a trademark
for just the name (PINK) *or* the logo you are using
for your brand *and* the name (the same thing) on
one application.

*You are the one who needs to decide which*
*way you want to apply. *


They used to let you attach a photo of the clothing
with logo and labels marked on them. I think they
now want a sample sent to them.


Go to the Trademake website search page and
do a search on a clothing line and look at the 
LIVE Trademarks. 

Trademarks Home

You can see the various companies trademarks
using a design with name and some without.



-------------------------------------------

Call them on Monday and ask

E-mail [email protected] or telephone 1-800-786-9199. *NOTE*: The *Trademark Assistance Center *can answer *general questions* about the trademark process or provide guidance on the type of information to include on a form. For points of contact in specific areas, please review the list below. _Please be aware that the USPTO cannot provide any sort of information in the nature of "legal advice." For legal advice, please consider contacting an attorney who specializes in intellectual property._


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## kimura-mma (Jul 26, 2008)

You are going to need separate applications for the brand name and logo. You will also need separate applications for the clothing line and printing services. Before you spend a ton of money on applications, you should think about what exactly you want to protect and what exactly you intend to defend.


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## Austin300 (May 24, 2009)

If you want to do some homework on this go
to the search page of the US tradmark office.

Search VICTORIAS SECRET PINK

Go down and open each LIVE trademark link.

They have several DEAD that had an old logo
that they no longer use. They don't have one
logo and name combined that is live that I can see, 
however, PINK is a very real and protected (R) clothing brand.
Your brand may be like the Jack Daniels LOGO and that 
is something that is protected numerous ways.


The majority of all the LIVE trademarks are 
goods and services - bras; t-shirts;camis; etc. etc.

You will see that they have several LIVE trademarks
that have the following classification. 

*IC 025*

*VICTORIA*'S *SECRET PINK**Goods and Services**IC 025. US 022 039*. G & S: Clothing, namely, bras, panties, camisoles, pajamas, sleep shirts, robes and T-shirts. FIRST USE: 20011200. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 20011200*Mark Drawing Code*(1) TYPED DRAWING*Serial Number*76976203


What I find interesting about this is that it looks like
they came back later and added more clothing items
and wanted them trademarked also. This was an
added expense to the company. (I'm sure they could afford it).

But this is what I am getting at about filling out
the application properly.

IF you have a clothing brand and want to brand
shirts, bras, coats, hats, socks, panties etc.. etc..
then you need to include ALL of them so you don't
come back later and pay for another trademark.

If you read those 6 or so LIVE trademarks you
can see what I am talking about. Did somebody
forget the other clothing items or did the brand
grow larger and they went into branding more products?

Who knows...


Now to really get into how many trademarks a company with
a LOGO has go search JACK DANIELS. They have a TON
of trademarks for their logos and their name because it is
used on EVERYTHING from clothing to key chains and 
they need numerous trademarks for their LOGO.

It will all add up as you grow...


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## kimura-mma (Jul 26, 2008)

Austin300 said:


> IF you have a clothing brand and want to brand
> shirts, bras, coats, hats, socks, panties etc.. etc..
> then you need to include ALL of them so you don't
> come back later and pay for another trademark.
> ...


Technically, you're only supposed to include items you are already using the mark on or have a real intent to use by the time you submit the Statement of use.

So in this case, they probably submitted new applications as the product line grew as opposed to include items they knew they weren't selling yet.

To the OP... my advice is to register your brand name as a Standard Character Mark. This gives you broad protection rights to the name itself. You can always register a stylized logo later on. Unless your true intention is to protect the stylization of your logo, you are better off with the broad protection rights.


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## Austin300 (May 24, 2009)

_"To the OP... my advice is to register your brand name as a Standard Character Mark. This gives you broad protection rights to the name itself. You can always register a stylized logo later on. Unless your true intention is to protect the stylization of your logo, you are better off with the broad protection rights."_


I agree 100 percent. The design of a logo can
be protected in other ways that will keep the
confusion factor down for your trademark application.


In short you are looking at spending about $300 bucks
on your first basic trademark.

If you have the funds then go for it. I tell everyone
that can afford it to get it locked in and it is
always a great feeling putting that (R) on your
products.

Others in the industry will see you as a serious
business with larger marketing ability. Just go
to a trade show and you will see what I am talking about.


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## Austin300 (May 24, 2009)

Here is NIKE's trademark for caps and T-shirts.

They have several for various items like shoes, watches
but not as many as you would think a company
of this size would have.

NOTE the IC 025 classification under Goods & Services. *This is for clothing.*


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## sunnydayz (Jun 22, 2007)

Thanks Ed, you are right, I had it backwards  It was late when I was writing last night.


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## ELLECTRICFEEL (Dec 11, 2010)

I think I'm just going to stick to trademarking the clothing brands name and logo first and just leave register the business under the same name within my state.


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## Pedro1977 (May 31, 2011)

Ed, Tim, thanks for your important inputs here.
I am in the same boat as I am thinking of getting my trademark.
I just checked Victoria's Pink on the trademark search site and as you said it is interesting to see the "evolution" of their trademark. At the end it seems it is only standard character trademark.
"The design of a logo can
be protected in other ways that will keep the
confusion factor down for your trademark application." This I don't get though. How do you go about it? You add that special logo or image later? Or you copyright it?
Thanks


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## kimura-mma (Jul 26, 2008)

Pedro1977 said:


> "The design of a logo can be protected in other ways that will keep the confusion factor down for your trademark application." This I don't get though. How do you go about it? You add that special logo or image later? Or you copyright it?


If you are trying to protect a stylized logo, you should trademark it that way. If you really just want to protect the brand name, then standard character mark is the best option. If you choose this route, then the design of the logo may still be protected through common law trademark or copyright. This protection is not as strong as a registered trademark.


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## essarr1972 (Oct 31, 2011)

all the information read above was GREAT...i have 1 more question or a combo question  if a person trademarks a name and logo say a stylized brand name and logo...it will be for ( goods ) an apparel line consisting of t-shirts,hoodies,caps, do you have to pay for each article?? like pay for t-shirts,pay for hoodies,pay for caps?? or when you trademark your brand and logo as an apperal comp that would include all the mentioned articles of clothing????


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## kimura-mma (Jul 26, 2008)

You do not have to pay for each article of clothing. You pay the application fee for each mark per classification (the classification includes whatever specific goods you intend to use the mark on). So if you want to register your brand name for use on clothing, that would be one application fee. If you want to register your logo for use on clothing, that would be a second application fee.


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## Pedro1977 (May 31, 2011)

If you check the USPTO trademark site and put let's say Life is good, you can see that everything is included in category 025 if not mistaken that lists all clothing including everything you mention. However, once you get the trademark for that and you want to get the same trademark name/logo for another category like let's say watches then you again have to go through the process.


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