# Why are RED shirts a problem with DTG printers?



## Stitch-Up (May 26, 2007)

Hi guys

I've read elsewhere that red shirts are a particular challenge for DTG'ers. Yesterday, I found out why 

Here's a design I printed on a black shirt. I'm happy.









Here's a close-up of part of the design - sorry the camera isn't so good at close ups!









and now a light blue shirt. Again, I'm happy with it.









Close-up









Now the problems of red shirts. Note how the inks bleed into the white. This didn't happen on the black or blue shirt and is inconsistent on this red shirt - some areas printed well with no bleed, the helmet shows no bleed.









This close up clearly illustrates the problem.









I printed this design several times on red shirts, the one above was the best and I left 30 mins between printing the white and colour!

Why the inconsistencies? Some areas of the shirt show no bleed others do and, the bleed is in the same areas on all red shirts printed.


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## allamerican-aeoon (Aug 14, 2007)

*Re: Why are RED shirts a problem?*

Great Prints! Not many can print as you did.
Maybe you found one bug! Use bug killer spray. Lol.
I will ask around.
Cheers and beers!


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## dazzabling (Sep 21, 2011)

*Re: Why are RED shirts a problem?*

How long are you waiting from when you cure (press pre treatment) to the time you start printing the shirt? 
Red shirts sometimes needs a little more special care because of the dyes in the shirt. 

You can try this:

Pre-treat as normal

Cure with lighter pressure for a longer period of time 70-80 sec (not full pressure and with a Teflon sheet) 
~same temperature the lighter pressure will help with burnt marks
~make sure it completely dry, if color changed wait a few minute for some of the color to return

Test 1 - Decrease your white ink
Test 2 - Decrease your color layers
Test 3 - Decrease your pretreat

Cure ink (this is the pain in the butt part)

30-40 seconds (flash)

30 full pressure (pop up)
remove paper > flip upside down

30 seconds full pressure (pop up)
remove paper > flip again

30 seconds full pressure (pop up)

Look to see if this changed anything.. 
you won't hurt the shirt if you do another 30 seconds full pressure 

Had to this for 100 shirts last week.. not fun but worked


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## DAGuide (Oct 2, 2006)

*Re: Why are RED shirts a problem?*

John,

When do you see the bleeding happening? Is it occurring during the printing process or is it only noticeable after you cure the garment?

I know some people will print two lower resolution white underbase passes if bleeding occurs during printing. This allows the first pass of white ink to absorb most of the dye and the second pass of white makes it less noticeable. 

If it happens during curing, then you are going to either need to change the curing settings like Peter mentioned or look at a different brand / model of shirt. Pay close attention to the country of origin of the shirt as mills can use different types of dyes and sizing chemicals depending on the country they are located in. 

Best wishes,

Mark


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## Stitch-Up (May 26, 2007)

*Re: Why are RED shirts a problem?*

Thanks for the replies & tips guys.

I should have said! The problem occurs while printing and not during the ink cure stages.

The problem with reducing the white ink is that I'll lose the opacity to cover the red colour of the fabric. Of course i could print 2 layers of white allowing a dry time between but, sometimes it's just easier to say "No" to red shirts 

Would be nice to crack it though 

Cheers


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## Justin Walker (Dec 6, 2006)

*Re: Why are RED shirts a problem?*

I would keep the underbase up for a nice solid base, but reduce your highlight layer 5-10% at a time until the problem stops. We see this sort of thing happen when the machine is putting down too much white ink with the heavily saturated colors, causing the inks to mix; hopefully that helps!

Are you using the "RED GARMENT" profiles that John created? If so, that would explain why the highlight layer is different on that particular garment. If not, then there could indeed be something with the red shirt itself, but I still think that lowering the highlight layer should resolve it.

Keep us posted!


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## Stitch-Up (May 26, 2007)

*Re: Why are RED shirts a problem?*

Thanks for the reply Justin.

One theory which perhaps explains the reason for the problem appearing at the edge of the design is, I pre-treat with the electric spray gun and change direction from left to right/right to left at the edges. Perhaps there's more pre-treat at these points holding the white on top of the shirt?

As I say, this is just a theory and one I can test by sweeping the spray off the shirt before changing direction .... hmmmm 

But of course, other colour shirts print okay and I use the same pre-treatment method!!


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## Justin Walker (Dec 6, 2006)

*Re: Why are RED shirts a problem?*



Stitch-Up said:


> Thanks for the reply Justin.
> 
> One theory which perhaps explains the reason for the problem appearing at the edge of the design is, I pre-treat with the electric spray gun and change direction from left to right/right to left at the edges. Perhaps there's more pre-treat at these points holding the white on top of the shirt?
> 
> As I say, this is just a theory and one I can test by sweeping the spray off the shirt before changing direction .... hmmmm


Interesting that you should say that - I just posted a brief writeup about our pretreatment process in another thread: http://www.t-shirtforums.com/neoflex/t172461.html#post1040469 - I actually discussed that very issue. haha

I suggest releasing the trigger at the far sides as you are spraying - professional painters use this technique to prevent uneven buildup around the outside edges of whatever they are painting.


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## Don-ColDesi (Oct 18, 2006)

*Re: Why are RED shirts a problem?*

When using a Wagner HVLP you can depress the trigger partially and this will keep the unit running but not dispensing any liquid. If you practice you can get to a point where the "blower" is running the entire pretreatment process & you are only "spraying" pretreatment on the areas where you need to. This will create a much more consistent layer of pretreatment. 

Hope this helps.


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## zoom_monster (Sep 20, 2006)

*Re: Why are RED shirts a problem?*



Justin Walker said:


> I would keep the underbase up for a nice solid base, but reduce your highlight layer 5-10% at a time until the problem stops.


 I think this will do it. Another trick I use is to create a small gap(.2 to.5mm) between areas of high contrast. This only works on artwork that you have created or have a vector copy, but it is unperceived on on the garment and allows you to get pop without the danger of the higher ink volume causing it to spread.


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## nwnative (May 16, 2010)

*Re: Why are RED shirts a problem?*

Thanks to all of you for this useful post. Red has always been a challange. We sometimes have trouble getting our red "red enough". We have an Anajet and always have to tweek the settings - up the contrast etc. Do you have a favorite red shirt? Or what country of origin is best?


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## cattman4 (Jul 6, 2010)

Which DTG machine do you use for your business?


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## allamerican-aeoon (Aug 14, 2007)

Thank you all the advises to NeoUncle. I will talk with masters at Long Beach show and pick their head (brain) and come back here. Let's see who was right on the money. Probably NeoUncle will have answer before me as he usually is.
Cheers! Beers are on me always. Strange as Money. why just corner?


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## allamerican-aeoon (Aug 14, 2007)

cattman4 said:


> Which DTG machine do you use for your business?


He has NeoFlex for 2 years. He never received proper train but he is something. ps: he is in UK.


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## Stitch-Up (May 26, 2007)

Always up for a challenge.

I want one of your *new* rhinstone setters and a 2nd Neo base unit.

Whilst I might not have received the training AA provide, the support I've received from the Tigers has been excellent online, remote control & Skype  also, the help and support from users here on TSF has been superb and I thank you all for that.


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## dmfelder (Oct 25, 2008)

I would say this is most likely caused by your pretreatment process. It's tough to tell exactly, but it looks like you're getting an inconsistent white base. This could be from several reasons, and you'll have to do a probably a lot more experimentation. It's taken us years to figure out "our" optimal process for pretreatment and direct to garment printing on dark shirts...and "yours" will undoubtedly be different.

The volume of pretreatment is just the beginning, and in your case, with a Wagner, there's really no consistency versus using a pretreat machine. Once our print on demand shirt fulfillment services program started to ramp up, we had tremendous inconsistencies on the same prints from day to day. Ultimately, we gave up the Wagner and went to pretreat machines because they're way more consistent (and cleaner). 

Then comes the curing process. How long? How much pressure? Is the nozzle clogged? Parchment/no parchment? One or two cycles? Your images might also be a result of curing & peeling which raises fuzzy fibers on the garment "through" the pretreatment layer, and essentially lowers the quality of the color layer.

Bleeding can be caused by too much white, too much color, too much pretreatment (not fully cured), print head problems, printing resolution, and more.

It's really took many years of trial and error for us to "perfect" it...and unfortunately, it changes with the seasons & ambient air...and sometimes from one pretreatment bottle to the next.

Best wishes.


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## PrintGirl22 (Apr 28, 2010)

*Re: Why are RED shirts a problem?*



Stitch-Up said:


> Thanks for the replies & tips guys.
> 
> I should have said! The problem occurs while printing and not during the ink cure stages.
> 
> ...


What brand of red tshirts are you using? A while back, we did a run with Hanes 6.1 tagless red shirts without the issues that you show in the pictures.


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## TPrintDesigner (Sep 16, 2007)

Does the bleeding happen during heat-press curing or whilst it is being printed? I would try laying less volume down. 

I printed a very similar piece of artwork today and had no trouble on Gildan shirts. The closeup is with the ink still wet, the full version is after it had been through the tunnel dryer.

.


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## rramirez (Oct 28, 2008)

TPrintDesigner, the Brother Pretreat and the Dupont Pretreat will react differently so this isn't a fare comparison.


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