# DTG new finding, new future



## sunoracle (Jul 1, 2010)

*DTG revolution, new future*

I have been here over 1 year, every day I spend many many hours deal with the dtg... I am an earnest DIYer, not represent any company.

Now I would like to share something here... I think it will be the future of dtg.

First possibility, integrate 2 to 4 Epson desktop print-head, then each time the print head move from right to left, the print range will be 2 to 4 times extent. It will increase a lot the print speed. This option are suitable for those that care for the t-shirt print production... In the following images, they use a set of 4 Epson 1900/4880 print heads... The print precision is the same as Belequee, Anajet. Because they use the same print-head.

Second possibility, use the industrial piezoelectricity print-heads, these print heads have much bigger nozzle. For example,now in the market, Belequee, Anajet print-head nozzle is about 1.5pl to 3.5pl, the industrial piezo print-heads is about 15pl to 40pl. Furthermore, the industrial print-heads are much easy to flush/clean because of the bigger nozzle.

Third possibility, still use the epson desktop print head, but use the CHEAP 6 colors print head, just about $100. When it was clogged or ruined, you not burden much, just change them... Since ALL the 6 colors Epson desktop print head is for small print size, so if use the stock Epson firmware, it won't do for dtg  But I know that there existing the other brand of firmware/mainbord that could overcome the print width, they have develop these mainbord. Such as use the epson cheap 6 colors print head to print size A2, A1, A0 and more...


----------



## sunoracle (Jul 1, 2010)

I restate again, I am not delegate any company, I am just the DIY'er, I just have much much much interesting to make these happen... In the past one year, I have diy over 8 dtg machines, including 1290, 1390, 1900, 4880. They perform the same as Belquette, Anajet, DTG digital etc... Why? Because they use the same Epson desktop and the same Epson main-board to controls except the mechanical transport system.

But I am not satisfy for these... I have some new discover. 
Two possible choices. First to use the industrial print head and main board to make it as dtg machine. Second option, use the cheap 6 color print head and extend the print size width use another mainboard, NOT epson mainboard... These are what I want to do in the future...


----------



## sunoracle (Jul 1, 2010)

I would like to know if someone will be interesting at these ???


----------



## 102557 (Mar 6, 2010)

Im wondering if a custom head coud be made for the existing epson technology using compressed air? same plugs but rather than firing the nozzles in the epson head have it fire or control solenoid type valves in the new head? to open close each nozzle on the new head that would except higher viscosity inks/airbrush ink perhaps something like the simulated process spot colors for screen printing? interesting concept

perhaps a nozzle plate that could be removed and flushed?


----------



## selanac (Jan 8, 2007)

sunoracle said:


> I would like to know if someone will be interesting at these ???


Davey, do you mean, would we be interested to purchase these DTG's with this technology, or would we be interested in building them for you?

I would be interested in Purchasing them either for myself and/or to sell to others in the USA.


----------



## sunoracle (Jul 1, 2010)

A custom head that made for one type of the existing epson mainboard is impossible for investing, because you could not made a head that is suitable for all epson mainboard, you could only select only one type epson mainbord. And then the application that use the custom head will be very limited... So I think it is no worth making.

However, I know a new company that develop a new type of print head, they could provide the program/interface for others to develop, they bypass the patent of some company's, however, they do not provide the printer, they just provide the print head and the control program. I just saw them in the expo. However, their print head is not piezoelectricity but hot spot... So these print head only suitable for water-based ink.


----------



## sunoracle (Jul 1, 2010)

selanac said:


> Davey, do you mean, would we be interested to purchase these DTG's with this technology, or would we be interested in building them for you?
> 
> I would be interested in Purchasing them either for myself and/or to sell to others in the USA.


I would like to develop these machine  
Their prototype will be $3,000 to $9,000. I would like to welcome more people to join in. Because the prototype I could not afford solely... I could make them to be the super dtg machine... 

Furthermore, if someone also have the time, you are welcome to my location to build them we together. If got the prototype machine, we could develop the super dtg in 3 months, including everything, the RIP, the ink supply system, the specified cartridge, wasted tank, etc...


----------



## sunoracle (Jul 1, 2010)

More pic...


----------



## zoom_monster (Sep 20, 2006)

I say go for it. If you build it they will come. Don't forget, profiles, ink and and infrastructure. You may not think this is "your job". But if a company is to spend money to develop.... all the puzzle pieces have to be in place.



sunoracle said:


> they bypass the patent of some company's,


This does not sound good.


----------



## dragonknight (May 30, 2009)

*Re: DTG revolution, new future*



sunoracle said:


> I have been here over 1 year, every day I spend many many hours deal with the dtg... I am an earnest DIYer, not represent any company.
> 
> Now I would like to share something here... I think it will be the future of dtg.
> 
> ...


Davey...it is better you buy their printer and convert it to flatbed printer/DTG? I know it won't be cheap but it will save you a lot of headache


----------



## Don-ColDesi (Oct 18, 2006)

Hi Davey,

You are following the same trail that many DTG developers have, multi heads sounds good, but there is much more to it than first meets the eye. You would need to develop your own firmware as well as capping assembly for the unit first off. Secondly you would need incredibly accurate engineering to prevent banding between the two heads - and new microweaving techniques as well across two different heads. There are other heads available as you have stated that could be used for building a ground up DTG printer - there are challenges here as well. Our estimates are that it would take 18 months of engineering time and upwards of $1,000,000 (USD) to develop our own print engine. The Kyocera and Ricoh Gen 4 heads are examples and are being tested by at least a few developers. Another challenge with these is that they require inks of a different viscosity then are currently being sold for the Epson based machines. This adds another problem - you would need to commission the ink manufacturers to develop an ink for the heads - which may not be realistic unless multiple companies are working on the same head (ecomonies of scale). 

Investing too heavily into development of further generations of Epson-based machines could also be a roadblock. Epson is gradually reducing droplet sizes on their machines and also working harder at blocking out re-purposing by exceedingly more difficult ink chip technologies. The R1900 is an example of this - I have not seen a consistent ink chip reset system for these machines yet - most will reset only 1 or 4 chips at a time and require a purge that takes a couple of minutes every time that a chip is reset - more if an additional chip reads OUT during the purge. 

As developer we are always looking for better solutions to provide to our customers and look at all angles. Your creativity falls right in line with the way we think as developers, but, often times there are a load of other issues that we don't see until we begin to develop. Case in point - the Epson 4900 - new technology, faster scan speeds - sounds great. Challenge - the ink required for this head is roughly 30-40% less viscous than is used on the current DX4 heads (4880, 1900 etc.). This means that a new ink has to be developed and also means that it will likely take at least 5 if not 6 channels of white to lay down the same amount of pigment as we currently lay down with 4 channels. Evidence of this is the amount of ink (in ml's) required by the "industrial heads" on the Kornit & Brother vs. the amount required by the Epson based machines. The industrial heads lay down fewer ml's of white to get good coverage because their ink is more viscous which means that the pigment load per ml is greater = less ink needed for coverage.

Hope this helps!


----------



## SickPuppy (Aug 10, 2009)

IMO the company that can develop a substitute for white ink is going to corner the market. Some type of LASER activated system that bleaches out the dye in the garment. No matter what type of new print head DTG printer you develop the white ink is always going to be the weak link in the system.


----------



## sunoracle (Jul 1, 2010)

Don-ColDesi said:


> Hi Davey,
> 
> You are following the same trail ....
> 
> Hope this helps!


Hi Don, the most EASY way is to purchase those industrial machines that use the Konika512(42pl) or XAAR126(35pl). Then change them to be suitable for dtg... Just a remind, those industrial machines are not make by those normal company that make the print-head... There exist some small company that know how to use the cracked mainboard to assemble it... So the price is not high compare with the stock machine... 

If you just pay attention to the DTG, you maybe not hear about them... These hacked machine that use the industrial print head are not made for DTG, they are make for print the outdoors ad. They have successfully own the totally solutions. Including the corresponding RIP, the ink supply system, the mainboard, etc... Now ONLY several company know how and where to purchase the corresponding component to fit with the industrial print head. So you do not need to re-design the firmware or RIP, just use them.


----------



## zoom_monster (Sep 20, 2006)

Printing on an absorbent substrate is a lot different from foam or vinyl. Also, don's comment about ink... You cannot use just existing formulation. Believe it, if there is a short path, they're working on it.


----------



## spiderx1 (Oct 12, 2009)

Just point out that the Roland Versacamm started out with 2 printheads and now has 4, 1 for each color. Prints nothing short of awesome.


----------



## 102557 (Mar 6, 2010)

All the current imformation keeps leading to the digital airbrush format i have been posting on... this type of system can be run right from the computer itself (like cnc tech)

As don said the ink is the issue when redesigning and using epson formats.. however with the digtal airbrush tech the whole system can be run from the computer and larger nozzle configurations used with existing airbrush inks for shirts/fabric.. it would solve alot of issues faster speeds/clogs/adjustable platen size print formats.. higher viscous inks (less mls needed) no pretreat required etc etc.. this system runs on compressed air and the head can be easily cleaned...

this would be by far the cheapest from a development standpoint (it already exists).. I just think it is so easy it would be hard to capitalize on this product as far as parts/product sales imo... 

to me this is the path of least resistance, no need to hack epsons/ink chips/ nozzle size on and on.. its a cnc with an airbrush head.. tons of software exists for cnc it would just need to be formated for the head.. no boards no hacks.. it would just work.. Its a no brainer IMO inkjets are just not going to work without issue jetting white with the current ink/epson heads.. its a complete waste of time to invest/develope for the epson base.. you have no control over the particular model epson printer/ as far as how long there on the market etc etc.. thats a bad gamble unless a low cost custom head is developed for it and integrating the airbrush technology, however this may cost more than just building a simple cnc style unit probably a better investment aswell...


----------



## Chapalahal (May 5, 2009)

Jeff, I like this device for a lot of reasons. Two things I do see, that do not like are the speed and what appears to be a pretty low resolution rendition. 

I've airbrushed shirts before, so I know that there is ink (paint) that works. There are also spot colors and neon/flouresent colors. It's been a while, so I don't know if these fabric paints are still acetone based. That might be an issue.

I'd be interested to know what the resolution and Sq/ft per hour rate is. Thanks for the heads up.


----------



## 102557 (Mar 6, 2010)

Chapalahal said:


> Jeff, I like this device for a lot of reasons. Two things I do see, that do not like are the speed and what appears to be a pretty low resolution rendition.
> 
> I've airbrushed shirts before, so I know that there is ink (paint) that works. There are also spot colors and neon/flouresent colors. It's been a while, so I don't know if these fabric paints are still acetone based. That might be an issue.
> 
> I'd be interested to know what the resolution and Sq/ft per hour rate is. Thanks for the heads up.


Heres some info on an existing system and a video also for you to view Art Robo - Universal direct printing mashine - Digital Airbrush


‪Custom Flag with Lambo Doors - Digitally Airbrushed‬‏ - YouTube 

there are some great airbrush inks available that are compliant Createx Colors

I tested a bit spraying these the company is willing to work with you on custom mixes etc.. i think even if an aparatus that just airbrushed the solid white underbase would be a good start or addition to epson formats...


----------



## Don-ColDesi (Oct 18, 2006)

I like the concept and we have actually discussed the concept a couple of times in the past. One challenge is registration between the two head units, a second would be compatibility between the color inks and the airbrush white ink. It is my understanding (but I could be mistaken) that white ink/paint for airbrushing does require some sort of treating of the shirt prior to painting. Please clarify this if I am wrong. Also, don't they recommend washing an airbrushed shirt prior to wearing? Also - what do you know about the chemical content of the paint - does it meet CPSIA standards for youth/infant products?


----------



## 102557 (Mar 6, 2010)

Don-ColDesi said:


> I like the concept and we have actually discussed the concept a couple of times in the past. One challenge is registration between the two head units, a second would be compatibility between the color inks and the airbrush white ink. It is my understanding (but I could be mistaken) that white ink/paint for airbrushing does require some sort of treating of the shirt prior to painting. Please clarify this if I am wrong. Also, don't they recommend washing an airbrushed shirt prior to wearing? Also - what do you know about the chemical content of the paint - does it meet CPSIA standards for youth/infant products?


Don, 
im not 100% sure on the treatment etc from what i have seen the shirt can be worn immeadiately.. for example six flags great america has a airbrush both within the gurnee, illinois location.. the artists airbrush characture shirts for the kids etc and are worn right after.. this is a large corp so they should be in the know regarding any issues? 

Im not sure on the compatability of dupont inks and airbrush inks..

I think the best would be a machine that used 100% airbrush ink for the whole process. the ink is pretty cheap in comparrison a manufacture could profile its inkset to its machine to assure sales in this regard aswell.. seems like a good avenue to test.. additionally these inks could be exchanged easily for the other airbrush inks that do metal glass etc... giving the end user flexability on product aswell.. 

It would be something to see a digital airbrush dtg for sure.. i think it brings much less complication to the manufacturer letting them have owner ship of all its components/programming that are run all from a computer like cnc machines.. maybe one day we will see one


----------



## Don-ColDesi (Oct 18, 2006)

I think the concept of digital airbrush is far fetched for the colors. Process color printing requires precise placement of CMYK drops to create the colors within its gamut. An airbrush would not give you that level of droplet control. The white is a spot color and would not present as much of a problem.


----------



## 102557 (Mar 6, 2010)

Don-ColDesi said:


> I think the concept of digital airbrush is far fetched for the colors. Process color printing requires precise placement of CMYK drops to create the colors within its gamut. An airbrush would not give you that level of droplet control. The white is a spot color and would not present as much of a problem.


Don
.. they have a unit that already sprays the cmyk plus white with no issue in an airbrush unit!! as seen in the videos i posted with the art robo...

any concept even if adding a spot white sprayer to the epson that elimanates the clog issue would be awesome...  here they are again

Art Robo - Universal direct printing mashine - Digital Airbrush

‪Custom Flag with Lambo Doors - Digitally Airbrushed‬‏ - YouTube


----------



## zoom_monster (Sep 20, 2006)

If you go to the site, It appears that the droplet size is huge. Resolution appears to be very low (21 to 65 ppi, if I'm reading that right) and not very fast. A dilema with spraying ink(either inkjet or airbrush) is finer pixels= more colors, finer prints AND slower speed(more inter weave), unless you increase the number of jets (more heads basically). Printing on a matte surface will always be a compromise. If we can speed it up and keep the quality we're at resolution wise, that's what we need.


----------



## 102557 (Mar 6, 2010)

zoom_monster said:


> If you go to the site, It appears that the droplet size is huge. Resolution appears to be very low (21 to 65 ppi, if I'm reading that right) and not very fast. A dilema with spraying ink(either inkjet or airbrush) is finer pixels= more colors, finer prints AND slower speed(more inter weave), unless you increase the number of jets (more heads basically). Printing on a matte surface will always be a compromise. If we can speed it up and keep the quality we're at resolution wise, that's what we need.


I doubt it can achieve anywhere near the the epson resolution i dont know of any dtg that can, this is one of the advantages to the epson format/printhead but also its greateast downfall regarding jetting white ink and clogs.. whats the brothers and kornits at 600 dpi?

the main goal would be a unit that is clog free or can be cleaned without replacement at high cost which is the case with a air compressed unit... step in the right direction i believe.. additionally using spot colors or an equiv sim process the machine only needs one pass.. speeds it up and gets rid of registration probs, reduces consumable cost/ pretreat.. looks to have more advantages than disadvantages.. there is always going to be a sacrifice its best not in the end users wallet

I mean seriously what is the current state of epson formats? the 2200 parts are dried up and the 1800 following shortly behind according to compass micro.. the 1900 has inkchip issues unless used as a hybrid (parts issue again) the 4900 requires a different ink viscosity! whats left the pro series 48xx those machines printing are like watching paint dry, bleek at best.. prolly why you see the interest moving to the mutohs etc..


----------



## 102557 (Mar 6, 2010)

I have been looking into the RICOH GX7000 as a dtg caple machine... its piezo technology head and the head is large.. print speeds are much better than the epson aswell..

Additionally it uses a higer viscous ink @ 8 same as brother with large 60ml cart capacity .. refill reset carts are avail for this printer aswell.. i know they use this printer for sublimation alot and has way less clog issues than an epson due to the higer preasure the inks are delivered at and its head design..

I understand the lawson printer uses a ricoh head.. Anyone have any insight on this printer (RICOH GX7000), thinking about tearing into one


----------



## sunoracle (Jul 1, 2010)

RICOH GX7000 is four color ink catridge, if want to print with white ink, then you have to use two different machine... The dtg size and weight will be heavily... Since the print head use the same piezo technology, the only factor to consider is its droplets size. Otherwise, I could not find the exact droplets size on the web... If RICOH GX7000 print head is bigger a lot, such as more than 8 pl ... it should be consider to combine two machine as a dark t-shirt dtg...


----------



## sunoracle (Jul 1, 2010)

Update: RICOH GX7000 is Minimum Ink Droplet Size is 4 pl (color)... It is nearly the same as 4880c(droplet size 3.5pl)... I do not think it is worth making...


----------



## sunoracle (Jul 1, 2010)

I think the most key factor is the nozzle size of the print head  So thats why ALL the industrial piezoelectricity print head have the much bigger nozzle size...


----------



## 102557 (Mar 6, 2010)

sunoracle said:


> I think the most key factor is the nozzle size of the print head  So thats why ALL the industrial piezoelectricity print head have the much bigger nozzle size...


I dont think i can completely agree with that, I think its a combination of several factors/head design/nozzle spacing configuration/preasure ink can be delivered at.. these two heads epson/ricoh are very different..the ricoh resembling the design of most industrial heads (separated channels which are long and narrow) unlike the epson heads which have a single nozzle plate and all the nozzles within one plate.. i think the epson head limits how much preasure the plate can withstand before delaminating (like when you push to hard with cleaning fluid and a syringe there toast) more testing will need to be done..

the ricoh is a very robust printer pictures disassembled below, has a closed ink system with an 8 cps ink rating.. It just doesnt have bad reviews with clogging as the epson does (hence why the sublimators love it) there are some limiting factors like its a cmyk only printer, so if printing white two machines would be needed

If the ricoh accepts a viscous ink rating of 8 which is nearly 3 times greater than what the epson head is designed for im sure it can deliver it? plus it has a closed ink delivery system built in with 60ml carts!!! hope to get some testing going on it...


----------



## Don-ColDesi (Oct 18, 2006)

There was a printer developed by and individual who is one of the pioneers of this industry, I believe the DA Guide (Mark) showed it at the ISS show (or maybe it was SGIA) in Orlando three or four years ago. The lack of white ink capability was one reason for the failure to launch - perhaos ink viscosity was the other. DuPont now makes a mid-viscosity ink that works in these print heads.


----------



## DAGuide (Oct 2, 2006)

Don is correct in part of his post. We did look at using the Ricoh GelSprinter to create a dtg printer. It was displayed at the SGIA in 2008 in Altanta, GA. (Boy, has time gone by fast.). The two main reasons why this project was cancelled was because of the light / dark sensor in the print head was too sensitive for t-shirt printing and the patent litigation that was going on with Direct Imaging Systems. The assistance from the development side when dealing with a full printer (which is completely different than what you get when you pay for the OEM print heads) was pretty close to nothing. Almost no one in the USA knew much about this printer back in those days. We did test the higher viscosity Dupont inks back then and they seemed to work fine. In the end we had to add up all the costs and look at it from our business model (targeted a low-end CMYK only printer), it just did not make financial sense. So we moved on.

That's business.

Mark


----------



## 102557 (Mar 6, 2010)

DAGuide said:


> Don is correct in part of his post. We did look at using the Ricoh GelSprinter to create a dtg printer. It was displayed at the SGIA in 2008 in Altanta, GA. (Boy, has time gone by fast.). The two main reasons why this project was cancelled was because of the light / dark sensor in the print head was too sensitive for t-shirt printing and the patent litigation that was going on with Direct Imaging Systems. The assistance from the development side when dealing with a full printer (which is completely different than what you get when you pay for the OEM print heads) was pretty close to nothing. Almost no one in the USA knew much about this printer back in those days. We did test the higher viscosity Dupont inks back then and they seemed to work fine. In the end we had to add up all the costs and look at it from our business model (targeted a low-end CMYK only printer), it just did not make financial sense. So we moved on.
> 
> That's business.
> 
> Mark


Mark,

I appreciate all the valuable insight you have given on the ricoh...

I would love to see a pic of the ricoh you displayed at the show if you have any


----------



## DAGuide (Oct 2, 2006)

Jeff,

Those pictures were on an old laptop that died back in 2009 on me. I will look around, but don't think I have those any more. I liked the concept because the entire shell was made out of vacuum formed plastic - carbon fiber print. So it was very durable, easy to clean and pretty light. 

Mark


----------



## Don-ColDesi (Oct 18, 2006)

The series you are looking for is the Artistri 3500. I'm not certain of who exactly is selling it commercially at this time. Until there is a large scale manufacturer/distributor selling the ink for a viable printer it might be difficult to source a steady supply of the ink.


----------



## Wynpotter (Jul 19, 2011)

I'm still new to DTG but I noticed the Epson has comeout with a Eco Sol printer the GS 11000 (model # may be wrong) but my point is about the print heads and I believe they have 360 nozzles/head. Second is that Epson has a CIS printer introduced in India but not the US because we are the ones buying carts( not a eco sol).
If these printheads are being mfg'd third party, they may be available and maybe the'll be put into newer desktop printers just as fewer unique parts cost less .
This might be pld news for this group but I posted it just in case it helps.
Wyndham


----------



## 102557 (Mar 6, 2010)

Don-ColDesi said:


> The series you are looking for is the Artistri 3500. I'm not certain of who exactly is selling it commercially at this time. Until there is a large scale manufacturer/distributor selling the ink for a viable printer it might be difficult to source a steady supply of the ink.


Thanks Don,

as to the ricoh project i have a call in to dupont, and sawgrass, dtginks..


----------



## 102557 (Mar 6, 2010)

Heres a video of the ricoh printing on paper in qaulity mode.. in this mode it moves the drive in about two inch steps and runs four passes with the print head bi directional.. theres alot of control with the driver but im still learning the machine yet... appologize for the bad video it was late and im still learning the machine (cover open sensor..)

you can switch to unidirectional and it will take about half inch steps... its blazing fast... Im going to try it with several different drive formats.. DTGINKS.COM is sending the correct ink viscosity for this printer and theres a few others avail aswell.. my biggest concern was ink supply, looks to be a non issue.

I plan to use two separate printers one cmyk one all white.. using a removable platen betwwen the two..




[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uL-wJVcBzGQ&feature=player_detailpage[/media]


----------

