# Sublimation for Cotton & Dark Fabric Review



## into the T (Aug 22, 2015)

*** Please keep this thread about the product in question, not dye-sub semantics ***

this is a new process with patent pending, and i have been testing for several weeks
i simply treat it as i treat any of my clothes,
i throw it in a mixed load (light & darks), wash in warm water and dry medium to medium high heat

the first pics show their completed sample after the first and tenth wash/dry cycle
the second post shows my dye-sub application to their substrate (and after the first wash/dry cycle),
these were pressed for 30secs at 400f on my hix swingman covered with parchment paper,
and pressed at fairly high pressure

- the first sample pics are on a piece of 100% cotton
- when i first received the sample the hand was about half-way between jpss and 3g (not bad for a full chest graphic)
- after the first couple of wash/dry cycles the hand noticeably improved, 
and after a few more cycles it became jpss or slightly better
- for now the substrate is customizeable with a minimum order of 6
(there are some different designs in the second set of pics below)
it is being targeted to larger runs/decorators (email here), 
but there are single tee's that can be bought online for $11usd (check here)
- as you can see from the pics not only has the hand become unicorn-like,
the colors have remained true with no fading or cracking
- i will update the the other test subjects as more wash/dry cycles are completed, and see if the darks behave similarly

all in all the first test has gone very well and exceeded my expectations,
and based on the ten wash/dry cycles, is a viable/commercial process 
(for those with a dye-sub setup who want to incorporate cotton or dark fabrics)

there are distributors coming online in north america and asia,
and i will add their links as they become available

for now the substrate and its application are in the hands of the creator,
whether that will change in the future......

that would be the only thing keeping this from unicorn status,
as the hand, color and washability seem to be there 
(costs are another factor i am unaware of, email for info)


----------



## into the T (Aug 22, 2015)

more testing


----------



## into the T (Aug 22, 2015)

and more testing


----------



## into the T (Aug 22, 2015)

a horse is a horse of course


----------



## DrivingZiggy (Apr 24, 2017)

into the T said:


> *** Please keep this thread about the product in question


But you never say what the product in question is...


----------



## 1ArmBandit (Jan 24, 2018)

hrrmm..what is it..is it weedless..if it needs to be weeded, is it a pain? this looks like a great solution to 3g if all said is true


----------



## Signature Series (Jun 11, 2016)

Here is the main issue - the quality of the sample pictures compared to actual sublimation are crap. Yet if you click the link to the website clearly that are using stock mockups and pasting images on the shirt as they are 100% more vivid and clear than the actual samples posted here. So right off the bat we have false advertising.


----------



## into the T (Aug 22, 2015)

DrivingZiggy said:


> But you never say what the product in question is...



sorry ziggy

it is a pre-prepared substrate that you dyesub on


----------



## into the T (Aug 22, 2015)

Signature Series said:


> Here is the main issue - the quality of the sample pictures compared to actual sublimation are crap. Yet if you click the link to the website clearly that are using stock mockups and pasting images on the shirt as they are 100% more vivid and clear than the actual samples posted here. So right off the bat we have false advertising.



not sure what you are trying to say here

my camera is about a decade old and the cmos is probably going

i can only say how great the hand is, and how impressive the dye-sub on cotton and darks turned out
comparing it to jpss, which is my only goto for photos, is night and day in quality and vividness

my wife was shocked at how well they turned out

your issues appear to be with some website that sells blanks and their own subbed cotton/darks
maybe phone/email them for their take


----------



## TABOB (Feb 13, 2018)

I'm sorry but I can easily screen-print a discharge base on black cotton shirts myself.


----------



## Lnfortun (Feb 18, 2006)

into the T said:


> not sure what you are trying to say here
> 
> my camera is about a decade old and the cmos is probably going
> 
> ...


Scan the image on the fabric. You will get better result than using a camera.


----------



## NoXid (Apr 4, 2011)

Interesting ... Thanks for sharing!

Looking at the Coated Blanks option on their site, I had the same thought as @TABOB . Discharge printing dark blanks to create a window in which to press a JPSS transfer, or whatever, is one of the DIY unicornish ideas I've mulled over. But what I suppose they are doing is printing some sort of polyester base onto the shirt, and in the case of dark shirts the base includes white pigment (or maybe discharge).

In any case, it is an interesting development, but looks like shapes would be limited for dark garments due to the need fully cover the print window with ink, yes? You could print sub black ink to fill in around the main image elements, but that's not going to match the shirt black, so still end up with a "box" effect even if the art itself isn't rectangular. That's one of the things that kept me from pursuing this general idea on my own. Of course, I'm making some assumptions here. But is that more or less how it works? If so, what are your thoughts about how to handle non-rectangular art on a pre-made rectangular window on a dark garment?

Thanks for the info! I may have to load up my unicorn rifle soon ;-)


----------



## TABOB (Feb 13, 2018)

NoXid said:


> Interesting ... Thanks for sharing!
> 
> Looking at the Coated Blanks option on their site, I had the same thought as @TABOB . Discharge printing dark blanks to create a window in which to press a JPSS transfer, or whatever, is one of the DIY unicornish ideas I've mulled over. But what I suppose they are doing is printing some sort of polyester base onto the shirt, and in the case of dark shirts the base includes white pigment (or maybe discharge).
> 
> ...


Sublimation inks will not show much on black cotton fabric, so your sublimation paper can overlap the white box. Blending the colors is a good idea to make it totally invisible.
The shape can be irregular, but you have to be careful with the design and the choice of colors. Otherwise you will end up with something like the example with the horses. The irregular shape works best in light color fabrics. 
Also the box doesn't have to be all white. It can have different color feathered edges etc... Many possibilities. Some discharge bases can be sublimated, or you can use JPSS paper.
You can also DTG over it, and you will actually get better washability than regular DTG, as the discharge will also remove the sizing agents from the fabric.


----------



## Signature Series (Jun 11, 2016)

into the T said:


> not sure what you are trying to say here
> 
> my camera is about a decade old and the cmos is probably going
> 
> ...


Please, you have all these distributors coming on-line, etc and you have a 10 year old camera? Please - bottom line is we can only judge by what you show and your pics are a horrible representation of dye sub. Furthermore I clicked the link you have in your original post. It is clear those are not finished shirts and simple mock ups with stock images added to it. So stop with the nonsense about old camera. If you took the same images you have shown and actually dye subbed them onto a shirt there would be a drastic difference. Send me the image and we can show results side by side.


----------



## NoXid (Apr 4, 2011)

TABOB said:


> Sublimation inks will not show much on black cotton fabric, so your sublimation paper can overlap the white box. Blending the colors is a good idea to make it totally invisible.
> The shape can be irregular, but you have to be careful with the design and the choice of colors. Otherwise you will end up with something like the example with the horses. The irregular shape works best in light color fabrics.
> Also the box doesn't have to be all white. It can have different color feathered edges etc... Many possibilities. Some discharge bases can be sublimated, or you can use JPSS paper.


Yeah, I thought through most of that back when I was considering this.


----------



## into the T (Aug 22, 2015)

NoXid said:


> Interesting ... Thanks for sharing!
> 
> In any case, it is an interesting development, but looks like shapes would be limited for dark garments due to the need fully cover the print window with ink, yes? You could print sub black ink to fill in around the main image elements, but that's not going to match the shirt black, so still end up with a "box" effect even if the art itself isn't rectangular. That's one of the things that kept me from pursuing this general idea on my own. Of course, I'm making some assumptions here. But is that more or less how it works? If so, what are your thoughts about how to handle non-rectangular art on a pre-made rectangular window on a dark garment?
> 
> Thanks for the info! I may have to load up my unicorn rifle soon ;-)


that appears to be a correct assumption, 
and maybe in the future will be rectified with decorators having direct access to the technology themselves

and by that i mean, the substrate in the hands of the you (the decorator)

i think we have discussed that video where that guy did indeed lay down a layer of discharge ink,
and then a transfer on top (i can't recall the transfer type though)
it comes down to the old time-cost weighing that we all do

the boundaries are being pushed/tested,
and this is a really decent leap towards the land of unicorns and honey for all

i commend the inventor for it, she really is a smart/nice lady,
and she in no way deserves to be treated with such disdain


----------



## TABOB (Feb 13, 2018)

The concept is OK but people expect a unicorn. It's not going to happen obviously. 


*The reality:*
1. Cotton does not sublimate... It's just not possible.
2. Sublimation works only on polymers or polymer coatings.
3. For sublimation to work, the polymer has to be either transparent (clear) or translucent (milky).


*What you can sublimate:*
1. Light colored polyester fabrics
2. Polymer coated light colored cotton fabrics.


There are some unicorn products out there, claiming to make light colored cotton sublimatable. They do not! What they do is impregnate the cotton fibers with a polymer. This will improve sublimation prints on poly-cotton blends, and will also make prints on 100% cotton look like prints on poly-cotton with low polyester content. The prints will fade.


*Polymer coated cotton:*
The best way to sublimate cotton is to coat it with a polymer film. As mentioned above the film has to be transparent or translucent, which also means that the substrate has to be white or light colored.
The good thing about cotton is that the area to be "sublimated" can be "bleached" (Discharge Dyeing). The polymer film is then applied over the bleached area and sublimated.


----------



## into the T (Aug 22, 2015)

TABOB said:


> *The reality:*
> 1. Cotton does not sublimate... It's just not possible.
> 2. Sublimation works only on polymers or polymer coatings.
> 3. For sublimation to work, the polymer has to be either transparent (clear) or translucent (milky).


thanks for the informative post and contribution

this post is about one of those polymer coatings and how it holds up under one person's testing

how it is applied to the material, or what the coating is?
i do not know

what i do know, and hope the thread will get back to, is that after almost a dozen wash/dry cycles this product works
and not only that, the hand is better than jpss on the white cotton
will the same hold true for the darks?
i'll post my honest results on that after more wash/dry cycles
the beginning hand is a little better than my jet opaqueII,
i purposely left some of the polymer coating un-inked so i could see/feel what happens to it (the horse picture press)

is it going to replace dtg at a fraction of the cost?
no, but for certain niches, in my opinion, this is a viable option
something like an artist/photographer could have a full color/photo design 
and only need a desktop epson dyesub setup

or for someone like me, my last jpss project was a dozen tees with a photo
they turned out pretty good, and i know they will last
but i had to tell the customer that you can only have white 50/50 tees
it would have been nice to have other options for them


----------



## Signature Series (Jun 11, 2016)

NoXid said:


> Interesting ... Thanks for sharing!
> 
> Looking at the Coated Blanks option on their site, I had the same thought as @TABOB . Discharge printing dark blanks to create a window in which to press a JPSS transfer, or whatever, is one of the DIY unicornish ideas I've mulled over. But what I suppose they are doing is printing some sort of polyester base onto the shirt, and in the case of dark shirts the base includes white pigment (or maybe discharge).
> 
> ...


It was quiet some time ago but there was a company, I believe located in MX, that was doing the black shirts with the white shapes to sublimate onto. They used to post here -


----------



## TABOB (Feb 13, 2018)

Signature Series said:


> It was quiet some time ago but there was a company, I believe located in MX, that was doing the black shirts with the white shapes to sublimate onto. They used to post here -


I think those were polyester shirts


----------



## NoXid (Apr 4, 2011)

Signature Series said:


> It was quiet some time ago but there was a company, I believe located in MX, that was doing the black shirts with the white shapes to sublimate onto. They used to post here -


Yes, I remember seeing those threads while I was out hunting unicorns. Lots of people working on the same general "problem" from lots of different angles.


----------



## into the T (Aug 22, 2015)

Signature Series said:


> Sorry, but when you write a novel about how great the product is along with future distribution, promising to add links in the future, etc you come off as representing the company. More important are the results and they suck, period. If I was the company you are "representing" I would demand you take pictures down as you hurt more than help. If the results are much better than the pics you posted because of a "10 year old camera" do you not get you are hurting the company? Sorry but factually speaking the quality sucks -


check my other review posts and you will find they are the exact same style

once again you owe me and the creator an apology,
i'm not sure why this point eludes you

i also re-looked at the pictures and see nothing wrong with them
they are not hd, but then again they are only ~160kbs
they are only an amendment to the written portion of the review

here are some of the pictures below, please tell me what is wrong with them

you have been a force for darkness in this simple review thread,
and it looks very bad on you and others
like i said to that other character take some time to look inward and review yourself

bottom line is this product works as advertised

my review stands and will continue to be honestly reviewed as testing continues
any more info that crosses my path will be added,
same as if dan/versatranz were to ask me to in this post


----------



## Signature Series (Jun 11, 2016)

Lnfortun said:


> This is off topic. I apologize Infot. Did not mean to hijack your thread.
> 
> Here is another video of the game changer Easy Subli on socks


Great example of a "game changer" versus "old" school. Notice the massive size and complexity of the "game changer" sock versus the old school dye sub socks. Hoping for more "game changers" in the future as these game changer socks are simply leaving me speechless.


----------



## PatWibble (Mar 7, 2014)

into the T said:


> more testing


 That is basically how the leaders Jerseys in cycle racing are produced on a daily basis ( albeit on polyester garments). The jerseys are premade with a large unprinted square on the front and back. At the end of each day the jersey is sublimated with a transfer supplied by the leaders team.


The concept is basically sound.



What would be a real advance for mid - high volume production would be a screen printable white polymer underbased that could be laid down specific to the design being printed.


----------



## Industryps (Aug 9, 2016)

PatWibble said:


> What would be a real advance for mid - high volume production would be a screen printable white polymer underbased that could be laid down specific to the design being printed.


Depending on if it's solvent-based or not, could you make your own printable pre-treat by mixing the pre-treat liquid with some sort of clear base, extender, or curable reducer? 
Back before discharge inks were readily available, I used to make my own by adding a gel-based household cleaner that contained bleach into my water-based fabric inks. It worked quite well.


----------



## splathead (Dec 4, 2005)

Off-topic and snarky posts removed. Keep it civil please.


Perhaps if everyone looked at others attempting to use sublimation ink in non-traditional ways not 'sublimation' but simply different uses of the ink for other purposes, there would be less arguments?


Yeah, sure, 'sublimation' doesn't work on cotton. But just like I use Coca Cola as a fertilizer for my Azaleas, isn't it also possible for sublimation ink to be used for other things besides printing on polyester?​


----------



## Signature Series (Jun 11, 2016)

There has never been an argument or a thought that dye sub can only be used on polyester. The issue is simple - the results shown suck, period, compared to traditional dye sub processes. If it were 10 years ago I would get all the effort to print on cotton. Today 90% of people could not till the difference between the feel of a cotton and a high quality poly spun shirt. It is to the point there are now high end microfiber bedding (sheets, pillow cases) being introduced. It is like going back and attempting to make a VCR better than a DVD.


----------



## splathead (Dec 4, 2005)

Signature Series said:


> The issue is simple - the results shown suck, period, compared to traditional dye sub processes.



To each their own. Who is it for you to say what people should be spending their time and effort on. 



If they fail, they fail. But maybe they won't. Results from the first DTG machines sucked too. But they evolved.


----------



## Signature Series (Jun 11, 2016)

splathead said:


> To each their own. Who is it for you to say what people should be spending their time and effort on.
> 
> 
> 
> If they fail, they fail. But maybe they won't. Results from the first DTG machines sucked too. But they evolved.


"Who is it for you to say...."? It is a forum and used to express opinions. Someone wants to post pics of sub par results then expect critical opinions stating such. Kind of like not using an ICC profile - results will not match those that do. The whole point of dye sub is vibrant colors and no hand.


----------



## splathead (Dec 4, 2005)

More whiny bickering posts removed. Next ones will incur infractions.​


----------



## into the T (Aug 22, 2015)

my words carry equal weight with the pics,
and together form enough for people to decide if they would like to pursue this particular method or not


just so there is no confusion i have attached a photo series showing the original artwork through to the finished washed and dried dye-subbed dark fabric

the artwork is an original photo stylized into the old japanese wood block print great wave by hokusai
we've done and sold many of these designs with jpss
people like them, my wife really likes the subdued quality of the design


----------



## Signature Series (Jun 11, 2016)

Clearly you are passionate about this process for some reason but stop take a deep breath and really look at the original art and the two following samples printed. There is a very drastic difference in quality. Using standard dye sub you should see very little if any difference between the original photo and the substrate. If it works for you that is all that matters.


----------



## PatWibble (Mar 7, 2014)

splathead said:


> Off-topic and snarky posts removed. Keep it civil please.
> 
> 
> Perhaps if everyone looked at others attempting to use sublimation ink in non-traditional ways not 'sublimation' but simply different uses of the ink for other purposes, there would be less arguments?
> ...



For me it is about producing a shirt that matches the customers requirements.


If the customer wants a full colour or hi resolution image in low quantities on coloured garments there will be times when a sublimation print will do the job better than htv, inkjet, laser or solvent. As long as it works. As often as not the customer has little interest in or knowledge of the printing process.



Not sublimation direct to the fibres admittedly, but still sublimating onto/into the substrate, which in this case is the white underbase.


Saying it isn't sublimation is a bit like saying a microwave oven doesn't cook food. If it's hot and your hungry...



Do we need to engage in the same old battle of semantics everytime someone discusses a sublimatable product that doesn't print direct to the fabric? We all know the arguements.


----------



## into the T (Aug 22, 2015)

i'm back with an update 
(hopefully everyone has spent their negativity and we can focus on the product)

i now have 20+ wash/dry cycles on the dyesub for dark and/or cotton fabrics
nothing special done, simply washed in warm and dried medium with all my regular laundry

it behaves almost exactly like jpss done on 50/50 cotton/poly blends
the hand is very soft,
and if you look at the close-ups (in the post below this one) of the 'stretch' picture you will see it is equivalent to the 'jpss1' pic
so this is not like a dense/solid material, it breathes and stretches with the fabric

i think the amount of fading is also very similar to jpss,
and could be mitigated via cold water wash and hang to dry

the pictures are of the original on the left and the current 20+ wash/dry on the right

for me it is definitely a winner if you already have a dyesub printer,
and don't want to invest in an oki/dtg

this is a newly created & trademarked system, so they are just finding their groove
it seems they are in the process of setting up networks in asia/europe/north america

but if you have questions:
email kb hybrid printing system: _[email protected]
_or pm our member_ hopestudio
_


----------



## into the T (Aug 22, 2015)

comparison of jpss and dyesub on a black 100% cotton tee after 20+ wash/dry cycles

jpss is the blue design on the white 50/50 tee


----------



## doubler82 (Jan 13, 2020)

I know this is an older thread, but it was my first time seeing it and it was a interesting read.


Like @Signature Series mentioned, I too was unimpressed with the photos of the results posted. They looked very dull and nothing close to the original artwork.


However, looking closer at the images, I think it's the poor lighting that is hurting the results. I took a few of your photos into Photoshop and adjusted them so that the shirts looked like the color they were supposed to be, or close to. When I did that the images on the shirt improved by a good amount.


I would recommend scanning in the shirts or shooting them outdoors when the sun is bright. Otherwise it makes the shirts look old and dull.


----------



## Lnfortun (Feb 18, 2006)

doubler82 said:


> I would recommend scanning in the shirts or shooting them outdoors when the sun is bright. Otherwise it makes the shirts look old and dull.


 @doubler82,

I agree with you. The photos I post on the forums, I scan the shirt images instead of using camera due to lighting. The scanned images is much closer to true color of the transferred image and shirt color.


----------



## into the T (Aug 22, 2015)

i have very limited time and simply take some pics, resize and post

as i said the text carries equal weight with the pics,
the pics, to me, are simply proof that i am not blowing smoke

had i been posting in the 'show your stuff' sub-forum i would do it quite differently


in the end i put in the time testing, taking pics, writing, posting, answering, 
fighting with oddly angry people, fending off photogs, explaining word definitions, defending integrity of myself and others, etc, etc

and for what....


----------



## sublial (Mar 24, 2011)

Why try to re invent the wheel?
AL


----------

