# Question on cap trying to embroidery on



## momof2 (Mar 3, 2010)

Hi I am needing any advice on trying to stitch out a cap. I have had it digitized twice by two different companies and it still looks terrible when I stitch it out on a cap. I have had a tech come look at my embroidery machine and he said everything is working well and we are doing everything right. And it looks like the digitizer, so he told us a guy to use and we get file back and it stitches out terrible. I am newbie to this but I feel like we have done everything to fix this problem and without luck the caps look terrible!! Tell me is caps almost impossible to make look good? I have SWF new single head machine,

Thanks so much for any advice!


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## bungy (Aug 24, 2006)

Caps are generally, not difficult items to stitch.

Post a pic of a cap you have stitched with this design so we can see what you mean.


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## lizziemaxine (Nov 14, 2007)

Can you attach a DST file of the design? Let some of us look at the file and see if we can figure out what's wrong with it.


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## laz0924 (Jun 25, 2009)

what size needles? what type of backing, thread?


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## momof2 (Mar 3, 2010)

Hi,

Thanks for the response. 
I am using the needles swf said to use on when stitching on caps.I am also using thread that swf sold me with my machine. I know I am new and still learning. I will go to shop in morning and attach my digitized file and picture of my caps I have stitched on. I appreciate any help!!!
Thank You! 

Melissa


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## momof2 (Mar 3, 2010)

Also I am using regular backing and they told me use 4 strips behind hat it very thick.

Thanks Again for you help!!!


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## laz0924 (Jun 25, 2009)

If the hat is very thick I would use just 1 layer of 3 oz tearaway and the needled should be 80/12 hope this helps


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## ptmoore (May 2, 2010)

My advice would be the same as above, but also be sure the hat is hooped correctly. The stabilizer I use is Oesd-sticky . It created a smoothed out surface for the inside of the cap, any folds or wrinkles can be smooth out. The stabilizer should never be to thick as you are allowing the machine to stitch the design and not fight the garment/stabilizer as it stitches from center> out to create the design. Be patient it does take some practice.


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## momof2 (Mar 3, 2010)

Hi All,

Ok here is a picture of what I am trying to stitch see what you guys think. I own the SWF /E-T1501C Embroidery machine.I am using the SWF cap hoop I bought from them.I am doing everything they showed me and have had a tech come look to see if I am hooping cap correctly and everything is set right on my machine, he told me I was and it was my digitizer. So here I am using new digitizer and still my cap looks terrible!I will attach the dst file also!!
Thank you! Thank you!For any advice and help this forum has been awesome!!


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## momof2 (Mar 3, 2010)

Also I am not sure how to load the dst file for you all to look at...



Thanks!
Melissa


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## zoom_monster (Sep 20, 2006)

Mellisa, How tall is the design? Also it looks as if you could go a little closer to the brim. Some digitizers will digitize "as is" even if some elements are too thin or are not optimized for reproduction via embroidery. It would be easier to see and test if you posted the file itself. The design is fairly simple as designs go, other than the way the C&G is broken into two colors. The satin oval looks kind of funky.


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## thutch15 (Sep 8, 2008)

Yeah looks real high on the hat.


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## laz0924 (Jun 25, 2009)

Why are you so high on the hat lower the design on your machine, trace it so you see where it is going to sew.
Probably the top looks bad because it pulls the cap when you are up so high, try lowering the stitch area about 1/4 to 3/8 above the brim, then see how it does.


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## FatKat Printz (Dec 26, 2008)

I have the same machine.. how fast are you going?? Also, if you are using the sample thread that came with the machine that could be an issue too.. all my sample thread tore and caused problems when doing any jobs. I used them for tests but never for a job. I have no idea how old my thread was when i got it but brand new thread always flows better and cuts better

Some helpful advice:

make sure you are oiled up on all areas (especially where the bobbin is~ that little piece of cotton)

make sure bobbin is threaded correctly (do the drop test).

I hate doing hats.. its a process. When you trace out your design do not just look at it..pull the presser foot down and follow the design with your finger. If you are too low or not in the middle you can damage your machine by hitting that bar.

Do you have the quick hoop set or the ones that require clips?? make sure they are pulled tight. I understand the tech came and said everything is ok.. but you will find that your machine has a mind of its own. 

what kind of hat is it?? I found that the cheaper hats (from Sanmar) always sewed out funny.. quality hats sew much better. 

I know you have spent a lot of money trying to figure this out.. trust me I have been there and done that.


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## bungy (Aug 24, 2006)

momof2 said:


> Also I am not sure how to load the dst file for you all to look at...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Melissa
right click the dst file --> send to --> compressed
save as zip file and post as attachment. 
see attached screenshot

Hope it makes sense.


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## Teamwear (Mar 12, 2007)

You may need to also adjust the bobbin tension and slow the machine down.

Is the design starting in the center of the cap?
Also-make sure the cap is tight in the frame.

It is a little high on the cap too. You only have so much room to clear the yoke.


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## momof2 (Mar 3, 2010)

zoom_monster said:


> Mellisa, How tall is the design? Also it looks as if you could go a little closer to the brim. Some digitizers will digitize "as is" even if some elements are too thin or are not optimized for reproduction via embroidery. It would be easier to see and test if you posted the file itself. The design is fairly simple as designs go, other than the way the C&G is broken into two colors. The satin oval looks kind of funky.


Hi,
I believe the design is 2.5"x2.5" . Yes I agree it can go closer to the brim. I did move it closer on other caps(I have stitched out several trying get this to work)LOL... 
I will try and post the dst file. See what you think. The oval around 
C & G suppose to be a rope. And the C & G inside outline is suppose look like a horseshoe.

Thanks for your help!
Melissa


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## momof2 (Mar 3, 2010)

FatKat Printz said:


> I have the same machine.. how fast are you going?? Also, if you are using the sample thread that came with the machine that could be an issue too.. all my sample thread tore and caused problems when doing any jobs. I used them for tests but never for a job. I have no idea how old my thread was when i got it but brand new thread always flows better and cuts better
> 
> Some helpful advice:
> 
> ...


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## cryman (Mar 19, 2007)

Melissa upload the .dst file. it would let us here check out the embroidery file trims and ties and how much under lay is used don't forget tie off as such in away especially for caps as from looking at your picture that cap should have been easy to do providing the backing and frame is right and also the embroidered file used is all the factor you need for successful cap embroidery 
by the way did you tell the digitizer the design was for an cap?
did the digitizer ask you what garment you are using for the design?


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## momof2 (Mar 3, 2010)

Here is the dst file finally!LOL


Thanks for all your help!!!


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## momof2 (Mar 3, 2010)

Hi,
Yes I did tell the digitizer it is for cap.
And I am not sure what you mean when you say tie off? I am new to embroidery and still learning


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## FatKat Printz (Dec 26, 2008)

You should have a manual for your embroidery machine.. (it looks like it was a copy of the original or at least that's what ours look like) ridiculous that you spend thousands of dollars on a machine and you have to have a copy of a manual..anyway that was my venting for the day.

in the manual, it shows the drop test again. Did you learn the process of marking it with a pen and then dropping it so you can see where it is at?? 

Now, as far as the thread if they told you it was new then it may be new. If if begins to tear or split then change it out


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## cryman (Mar 19, 2007)

momof2 ok i had an look at the embroidery file firstly your digitizer has used underlay as in my case i wouldn't since it's for cap, a good backing plus secure frame, also as i mentioned about tie off' i wouldn't bother you with it since you don't digitize you don't need to worry about it, also your digitizer's stitch value for cap is too tight for cap embroidery to be consistently , what kind of embroidery machine did you use? have you been in touch with your digitizer to correct and make adjustment? hopefully other good digitizer will make their comment's to your post here soon, as i would like to read their too and hopefully be able to help you out.


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## Prinsz (Oct 6, 2008)

Is that Backing on the front of the hat?

If so don't! I use 1 layer of backing on the back of the hat and I use the one you can stick on from madeira or Gunold.
Also when yoy send a logo out for digitizing and told them it is for a cap or hat they should tell you there is a limited size every time you send on out.
I use <[email protected]> she designs great and if you have any questions or adjustments neede she will do it in a hurry.
I am telling you she is great! Try her and you will know.

Rene


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## ecampbell (Jul 14, 2010)

I'm new here, but not new to embroidery- the file is really poorly done if it was explicitly understood that it should be for caps. 

All stitch type/angle/sizing problems aside, the sequencing/pathing is just plain backwards for hats.

If I get some free time this afternoon, maybe I'll shoot you a file with some light editing (can't afford to redo it entirely on this schedule  ) and see what you think.


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## GARCON (Jul 14, 2010)

Definitely bring it down some and see if you can increase the size slightly.

Gerald
GARCON Creative Services
Garcon Creative


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## ecampbell (Jul 14, 2010)

momof2- I did some editing on the design and if you'll shoot me a PM with your e-mail, I'll send you the DST. and revised color sequence. I resequenced the design and cleaned up a fair amount of the excess stitching and overly dense small details as well as correcting some stitch angles and other things I could handle quickly.

After looking back over the entire thread on the forum, though, I saw the color scheme you are using and I can't stress enough that I've very rarely had a customer pleased with a straight-stitch outline stitched in white, seeing as it accentuates your needle penetrations and makes lines look lumpy (or "stitchy" to paraphrase one of my customers) and uneven. I'd strongly suggest figuring out some other red,white and blue sequence that allows you to use a darker color for the rope outline/horseshoe nail-holes. That said, the outline on the rope was so dense it could fill an area by itself, let alone with all of those tiny satin stitch segments beneath it. It really feels like this design was resized from something larger.

So, shoot me a PM if you want my version and I hope that your customer doesn't mind a little color shift.


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## ecampbell (Jul 14, 2010)

I did a version correcting the problems I saw- pm me if you would like me to send it to you . I only had time to edit, not recreate, so I can't vouch that it's 100% ready to go, but it might help.

If other folks want to see the changes, I can always zip it up and post it here. Like with most things, there are many opinions on how to handle the problems you are having, but I think what I did will help.

I have to say, though, that no customer I've had much liked white straight stitch outlines. The white thread can exaggerate the look of the needle penetrations and usually the customers think they look uneven.


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## momof2 (Mar 3, 2010)

ecampbell said:


> I'm new here, but not new to embroidery- the file is really poorly done if it was explicitly understood that it should be for caps.
> 
> All stitch type/angle/sizing problems aside, the sequencing/pathing is just plain backwards for hats.
> 
> If I get some free time this afternoon, maybe I'll shoot you a file with some light editing (can't afford to redo it entirely on this schedule  ) and see what you think.


 
Hi Thank you! I did explain clearly what I was needing for caps. Also I have already been through this with another digitizer also to get the same problems. After talking to SWF Tech he said it was poor digitizing.So he gave me a name and told me to use someone different. And I feel like I am still having all same problems. I hope I am able to do caps one day! This was the whole reason for buying this embroidery machine.I have been going crazy trying to figure out whats wrong. If its me or machine or digitizer.
Thanks to all support and advice!!
Melissa


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## momof2 (Mar 3, 2010)

FatKat Printz said:


> You should have a manual for your embroidery machine.. (it looks like it was a copy of the original or at least that's what ours look like) ridiculous that you spend thousands of dollars on a machine and you have to have a copy of a manual..anyway that was my venting for the day.
> 
> in the manual, it shows the drop test again. Did you learn the process of marking it with a pen and then dropping it so you can see where it is at??
> 
> Now, as far as the thread if they told you it was new then it may be new. If if begins to tear or split then change it out


Hi I didn't learn the drop test with a pen but I had about four days of training with a tech he said it should drop and stop. And then a new tech comes out and says its way to loose and shows me it should never drop and if it does its to loose.Its set much tighter now and he is their main guy so I am going with him,lol!!
I guess I need to get my manual DVD out because I didn't get a paper book manual with my machine,and I really wish I would have gotten both!LOL, Thanks for the advice!
Melissa


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## laz0924 (Jun 25, 2009)

it should drop and only about 2-3 inches they also sell bobbin tension gage, that gives you a number value.


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## JAF (Oct 12, 2008)

Momof4
So many enter this business thinking it is going to be instant money. It does take time to learn what needs to be done to make embroidery look good. Cap embroidery isn't that difficult with proper digitiging and hooping. I never go over 2.25 in height with my disigns for the average cap. It will get easier, I promise.


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## pixelwhisperer (Jul 23, 2008)

The picture and the DST file don't match. In the picture you are getting color changes where you shouldn't get them this has nothing to do with that particular DST file. It is obvious that the objects have been broken apart and your machine is inserting color changes where there should be none. That is why parts of your Letters are one color and other parts are another. In the DST file your light blue doesn't get sewn till your other colors are finished. Did you edit the design before loading? if not it seems like you are loading the design incorrectly. SWF software usually recognizes machine functions correctly in DST files, However if you miss or make an error in the loading of the file. You can get all kinds of crazy results. The one thing I noticed about the digitizing is that didn't seem to have been designed with a cap in mind. I usually do all the colors that will be in a particular area of the design before I move on to another area of the cap. This does add extra stops and trims but it minimizes registration issues and generally delivers better results. I also stay away from thin outlines and increase my overlaps for my outlines when possible. I would search for a reputable digitizer and seek more training in the operation of my machine. Hope this helps and hang in there. It will get easier with time.


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## ikkuh (Apr 8, 2010)

ecampbell said:


> I did a version correcting the problems I saw- pm me if you would like me to send it to you . I only had time to edit, not recreate, so I can't vouch that it's 100% ready to go, but it might help.
> 
> If other folks want to see the changes, I can always zip it up and post it here. Like with most things, there are many opinions on how to handle the problems you are having, but I think what I did will help.
> 
> I have to say, though, that no customer I've had much liked white straight stitch outlines. The white thread can exaggerate the look of the needle penetrations and usually the customers think they look uneven.


Hi,

I would like to see what changes you have made!
Like to learn a thing or 2 from other people.

Jacob


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## ecampbell (Jul 14, 2010)

When I did my edit I did try to keep the same color changes in mind, but I could have done as pixelwhisperer says and go region-by-region. It's a judgment call one must make, taking into consideration the stability of their garment and the amount of distortion their design will cause. Were I to do this design from scratch, I'd make different choices than the original digitizer, to be sure.

I think some of the problems with this design stem from what I think of as "trapped substrate," wherein you stabilize/sew down a section of the material with the design and then try to fill in an element within that trapped void. Often, this causes loose material to be pushed up and/or ripple, causing havoc with registration and making the garment look pinched or bunched in the design area. Though I don't usually see it as much in caps, the extremely poor choices of pathing in this design tend to make me suspicious that there could have been some buckling.


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## zoom_monster (Sep 20, 2006)

I also think that the "rope" element is too small to resolve the way it was done. It's Tatami and it's less than 1.5mm thick. The rope needs to be sections of satin, Less sections(simpler and wider) and no running stitch outline. If the sections of the state were sewn bottom to top, It would stabilize the cap better. As stated, the design should be about 2.25 tall.

Ian


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## ikkuh (Apr 8, 2010)

So it's better not to use an underlay for caps??

Jacob


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## lizziemaxine (Nov 14, 2007)

ikkuh said:


> So it's better not to use an underlay for caps??
> 
> Jacob


Depends on the cap and design.


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## ikkuh (Apr 8, 2010)

mmm

Not as easy as 1,2,3 if i understand this correctly.

Jacob


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## ecampbell (Jul 14, 2010)

Oh, certainly not. Underlay may be the most controversial topic I've ever discussed with other digitizers (aside from software preference, that is). The level depends a great deal on the substrate/garment, the color of the top-stitching and how it contrasts with the garment color, and even the amount of loft/dimension you want to see in the final garment, dependent on the top stitch type. Even then, different customers have different tolerances for show-through and/or overall design density. 

That muddy the waters enough?


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## OldeLady (May 22, 2010)

I agree that the design is too high, and it is a little bit too much to the left side of the cap (right side on the pic). It seemed like it wasn't centered?

-- Olde Lady


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## ikkuh (Apr 8, 2010)

ecampbell said:


> Oh, certainly not. Underlay may be the most controversial topic I've ever discussed with other digitizers (aside from software preference, that is). The level depends a great deal on the substrate/garment, the color of the top-stitching and how it contrasts with the garment color, and even the amount of loft/dimension you want to see in the final garment, dependent on the top stitch type. Even then, different customers have different tolerances for show-through and/or overall design density.
> 
> That muddy the waters enough?



 THANK YOU!! 

Isn't there a rule for caps to stick to?
Something that will make this a bit more easy?

Jacob


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## OldeLady (May 22, 2010)

Did you try to take digitizing classes with SWF? If not, you should inquire because you will learn many basics and that may help you understand more about digitizing. 

Try to find out schedule early as they might have limited seating for the classes. 

-- Olde Lady


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## ikkuh (Apr 8, 2010)

I'm from The Netherlands.
I don't think they will have the classes over here.

Isn't there something to find on the internet?
A "basic" tutorial to download somewhere? 

Jacob


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## laz0924 (Jun 25, 2009)

your digitizing software should have online classes, if you don't have software look for one that has training on line. Webinars


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## OldeLady (May 22, 2010)

You should inquire with the brand of your embroidery machine and see if they can offer you some kind of advice on learning digitizing. The classes are usually free with purchase but you may have to travel for some of these classes. Try not to pay for these classes. 

Yes, Webinars are great, but make sure you have time for that. Sometimes it is scheduled on your working hours. It may take hours on each session. So, schedule accordingly.

Good Luck!

-- Olde Lady


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## JAF (Oct 12, 2008)

ikkuh said:


> THANK YOU!!
> 
> Isn't there a rule for caps to stick to?
> Something that will make this a bit more easy?
> ...


Jacob,
I do not think that embroidery has any hard and fast rules about underlay, density, pull comp, caps or flats. You need to look at the general rules and adjust them to your needs.


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## ikkuh (Apr 8, 2010)

Thank you all for the answers!

But the problem is not how to make an embroidery, but what kind of embroidery needs which underlay and when do you apply it? 
(if that makes any sense)
So i'm trying to find a list with basic rules.

Jacob


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## laz0924 (Jun 25, 2009)

experiance is the only answer it takes time, small adjustments make a big difference.


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## JAF (Oct 12, 2008)

Since you have Janome software, go to janome.com and they have many FREE digitizing lessons. This is a wonderful place to start your training.


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## ecampbell (Jul 14, 2010)

Truthfully, one of the best ways to learn is to use software replay, or better yet run a machine, and watch well-digitized designs run. I believe most of the greats of digitizing spent at least some time as operators on the way. Watch designs that run well, open them in your software and measure elements, and make an analysis. You'll arrive at methods and settings that will help you in your own work. I wrote a post about it for Stitches here: Stitches Oh, and since I was telling you about substrates earlier, this other post may be of interest: Stitches

There are a lot of good resources out there, but experience (paired with thoughtful analysis) is a great teacher.

I'd say that the most important, basic rule for caps is "center-out, bottom-up." Start from the center bottom whenever possible, it's the most stable part of the cap's crown. Secure the hat to the backing with an underlay "tree" if your design allows you to, and work as much as you can from the center toward the outside, even if it means causing extra jumps/color changes. There are exceptions to the rule, but if you can stabilize and push that fabric uniformly from that center stability out, you'll have better luck than if you do as the digitizer whose work started this thread did and completely work opposite of the nature of the cap.


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## ikkuh (Apr 8, 2010)

ecampbell said:


> Truthfully, one of the best ways to learn is to use software replay, or better yet run a machine, and watch well-digitized designs run. I believe most of the greats of digitizing spent at least some time as operators on the way. Watch designs that run well, open them in your software and measure elements, and make an analysis. You'll arrive at methods and settings that will help you in your own work. I wrote a post about it for Stitches here: Stitches Oh, and since I was telling you about substrates earlier, this other post may be of interest: Stitches
> 
> There are a lot of good resources out there, but experience (paired with thoughtful analysis) is a great teacher.
> 
> I'd say that the most important, basic rule for caps is "center-out, bottom-up." Start from the center bottom whenever possible, it's the most stable part of the cap's crown. Secure the hat to the backing with an underlay "tree" if your design allows you to, and work as much as you can from the center toward the outside, even if it means causing extra jumps/color changes. There are exceptions to the rule, but if you can stabilize and push that fabric uniformly from that center stability out, you'll have better luck than if you do as the digitizer whose work started this thread did and completely work opposite of the nature of the cap.



Here's something that i can do something with.
Good basic rule!! thanks!

If there is some-one else who can give me a basic rule, then i would like to hear it and learn from one of you guys.
Thanks,

Jacob.


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## myfinishingtouch (Nov 21, 2009)

The only problem with watching predigitized designs sew out is they manually insert their underlay and tend to break designs up into more components than I would when digitizing with Wilcom. In Wilcom, I would use on of the Input A, B, C and then click on the underlay tab and select the type of underlay I want to use for the element. In most commercially available designs they manually put in the underlay and that's not how I do it with Wilcom.

How many of you manually insert the underlay or do you let your software do it for you?


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## bungy (Aug 24, 2006)

ikkuh said:


> THANK YOU!!
> 
> Isn't there a rule for caps to stick to?
> Something that will make this a bit more easy?
> ...


Generally, 
Digitize from bottom to top
From centre out.

But this is not set in concrete either, but is a good starting point for caps.

For a cap I usually don't go larger than 2" (50mm), as different brands have different crown heights, this can lead to unwanted problems when placing the same design on different cap brands/styles.

I had one instance where we had been doing a particular style of cap for a number of years, then one year the design didn't fit - turns out the manufacturer had changed the height of the crown by 5mm (to save material). We had to resize design so we could complete the job.

As a result, we decided to reduce our max design size for all cap jobs to avoid the problem in the future.


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## ikkuh (Apr 8, 2010)

So, from bottom to top.
From centre out.
and max. 50mm height.

Thanks, maybe some-one else with another clue?? perhaps something about density or stabilizer?

The caps i use are from king-cap and are stiff in the front. (don't know how to say it else, does that make sense?), till now i didn't use stabilizer because i thought the caps dont need it, is this true?

Jacob


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## laz0924 (Jun 25, 2009)

still need stabalizer, very common is 3oz tearaway, works for most caps, add that to your basic rules.


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## ikkuh (Apr 8, 2010)

I will add that to my "basic list".
I hope someone could give me another hint to add to the list.

Thanks,

Jacob.


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## momof2 (Mar 3, 2010)

ecampbell said:


> I'm new here, but not new to embroidery- the file is really poorly done if it was explicitly understood that it should be for caps.
> 
> All stitch type/angle/sizing problems aside, the sequencing/pathing is just plain backwards for hats.
> 
> If I get some free time this afternoon, maybe I'll shoot you a file with some light editing (can't afford to redo it entirely on this schedule  ) and see what you think.


Big Thanks to ecampbell! After he did an edit on my file it was mind blowing the difference. And it open my eyes and let me know it is my digitizing that has been problem,

Thanks again for taking the time,
Melissa


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