# 6- and 8-colour dye sublimation printers



## delarima (May 27, 2012)

Hey guys!
I do not own a dye sublimation printer yet. I have researched quite a bit, and the biggest question left for me right now is:

*How big (or negligible) is the gamut increase that I would gain from a 6- or 8-colour dye sub printer setup? 
*

I am planning to transfer to hard substrates, not garments.

The setups I have researched (printer + ink) are:

*8-colour:*
Epson 11880 + Manoukian Digistar HD1 
Epson 7880/9880 + Sawgrass SubliJet E
Epson 4880 + Sawgrass SubliJet IQ

*6-colour:*
Epson 1400/1410 + Sawgrass Rotech
Roland FJ-540 + Sawgrass Rotech
Epson 9700 / Mimaki JV5 / JV33 + J-Teck J-ECO NF-60
Mimaki JV5 + Mimaki SB53 ink
Mimaki JV33 + Mimaki SB52 ink

_I know there are huge price differences between an Epson 1400 and a Roland FJ-540._
But for this thread, let's please leave cost out of the euqation and just concentrate on print quality. 

My educated guess right now is:


A 6-colour-setup will only give me a very slight increase over a standard 4-colour-CMYK setup.
It usually adds Lm + Lc, delivering a little more gamut in the bright yellows (useful for skin tones)

An 8-colour-setup however will give me a very significant increase over a 4- or 6-colour setup.
It usually adds primary colours like Red & Green (Rotech) or Orange & Blue (SubliM), delivering more precise spot colors / Pantone matching.


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## pisquee (Jan 8, 2012)

Or they can expand on the black side of things, giving you light black, and light light black, which would be useful if you're doing more monochrome printing.
I would also suggest that for the large format professional printers mentioned in your list that there are lot more choices of ink available apart from Sawgrass, which have better quality, and are more economically priced for the scale of printing these machines offer.


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## Riderz Ready (Sep 18, 2008)

I would say there is little difference unless you are going to be producing high end photographic related items on hard substrates regardless of the printer.

As stated above - there are very few people, none that I am aware of personally, that have wide format printers and use Sawgrass ink. It is not just a cost issue it is a quality of ink issue. There is much better quality ink than Sawgrass in the wide format market.


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## GordonM (May 21, 2012)

I do a lot of work for artists who demand a little more color matching than the average customer. I have a 4-channel sub printer, and every substrate I print on has its own color profile made by me. They're as accurate as a 4-color printer can make them, but there are still colors that cannot be reproduced, and can be seen when comparing against the proof, which is typically printed on an 8 channel printer.

Infrequently are the colors such that customers complain, especially as I tell them ahead of time what they can expect. I also show samples, and they can visually compare.

I'm sure there are people needing a very tight color fidelity, but it would all depend on your market. You just have to research your customers/potential customers to tell if it's going to be a problem.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

GordonM said:


> I do a lot of work for artists who demand a little more color matching than the average customer. I have a 4-channel sub printer, and every substrate I print on has its own color profile made by me. They're as accurate as a 4-color printer can make them, but there are still colors that cannot be reproduced, and can be seen when comparing against the proof, which is typically printed on an 8 channel printer.
> 
> Infrequently are the colors such that customers complain, especially as I tell them ahead of time what they can expect. I also show samples, and they can visually compare.
> 
> I'm sure there are people needing a very tight color fidelity, but it would all depend on your market. You just have to research your customers/potential customers to tell if it's going to be a problem.


A couple of points on the issue of sublimation gamut.

1. Sublimation inks have less gamut that the original inks designed for the printer. No matter how many colors the printer is

2. Gamut is maximized only when the paper and inks are designed _together_ to optimize the extra gamut.

3. With pigments using a 4880 with 8 colors and Epson glossy photo paper and comparing to 4 color Epson using the same type pigment inks and glossy photo paper then the same file then the difference is very noticeable. Doing the same with regular inkjet paper on both printers the difference in gamut is not really noticed.

A very interesting doc I found a few years ago, they did some serious independent testing. In the conclusions 

*"4. Conclusions*
The color gamut of the digital printers is affected by the substrate properties. The digital printer may be designed for a variety of substrates; however, the largest gamut and highest print quality of the device is obtained when the manufacturer recommended substrate being used. The device that is capable of reproducing a large gamut of colors on ideal substrates, may loose this advantage when using a different substrate."​

http://www.wmich.edu/pci/faculty/Publication/fleming/2007%20TAGA%20Paper_submit.pdf

Kinda verified what I see comparing a 4 color printer I have with my 8 color printer. If I do a pigment transfer then no difference, if I print photos on glossy paper there is a difference.

Years ago I was testing some sub inks provided to me free in carts for both a 2800 (8 color) and a C88 (4 color) and for most items it didn't make a difference, only when I compared it using Bison glossy tiles could I really see much improvment. 

Bison has a unique coating on their tiles (vs, others) and their tiles are a very "white" white. The gloss is very brilliant, more so than other sublimation tiles in the market. Where the difference was if you looked in the gradient areas you could see smoother transistions in the gradients.

Mousepads, mugs, fabrics, and even tiles not made by Bison I tried the extra colors were no big deal, just a waste of inks and more heads to unclog potentially.

Bison tiles the colors really pop so if you use those for photographs you either have to back down the gamma or have a profile made just for those, so those were the only case i could see ever see using 8 colors, and then only when you had customers that were pushing the edge.


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## GordonM (May 21, 2012)

Good points, Mike.

For the artist work, I don't use Bison tiles, or really most tiles with a gloss finish. Almost all of my customers opt for the matte finish tiles, which I think also more accurately reflects the medium they tend to work in, which is watercolor or oil. Among the hardest match is to glass items, because they're always lighter than their originals especially if backlit, and coarser fabrics like 210D poly totes.

For my control panel and enclosures work I like high gloss FRP, which I cut to shape on a CNC, then sublimate. On those the colors are "Fanta flavor" boosted. No need to color match on those -- red is **RED**. The customers love it.


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## danielschelin (Apr 1, 2011)

In my experience, a 4 color printer is adequate for digital apparel, however a 6 color setup using Red/Blue will give you a color boost. When doing hard substrates, you will get better resolution when using 6 color. An 8 color setup would enhance the gamut significantly, unless you design in CMYK. If you're going with an 11880, be careful. Manoukian does not work well in that printer. It was never designed for anything past a DX4 printhead.


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## Eview1 (Apr 29, 2010)

As you will not be printing to garmets I agree there are more places to look than Sawgrass. Here is a link you might want to look at about large format printing. and different ink suppliers.

Large Format Printing News, Products, Review

http://www.largeformatreview.com/inks


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## uncletee (Feb 25, 2007)

I have been using 4 color printers for years, we do lots of tiles, unisub tiles and mugs. save the money go with 4 color. my opion. good luck uncletee.


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## cprvh (Jan 23, 2006)

4 color (CMYK) v. 6 or 8 color (CMYK+light inks) will produce the same gamut. Introducing light ink variations will not increase your gamut, but will help with smoothing out gradients and reducing speckling in the lighter colors. It's a hard sell to photographic customers (especially on hard goods) using only four colors...you need the lights.

However, if you are talking about adding hi-fi colors such as orange, blue or green, then yes, your gamut will increase considerably as you can actually build some of the colors that simply cannot be reached by using CMYK (w/ or w/out light inks). Yes, you can actually print "red" by adding an orange channel. Profiling then becomes the biggest challenge I have faced. Most RIP's may claim they can handle hi-fi inksets, but very few actually support it. Many ink companies "sell" the hi-fi inks, but don't know how to use it. Be prepared to spend many days and many dollars profiling and reprofiling.


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