# A little confused - a brown dye subbed t-shirt?



## Annushka (Jul 26, 2006)

This is my first post (besides the intro). I would like to achieve the softest feel possible in the form of the print. Came to a conclusion that plastistol is probably not for me then. Read many posts here on dye sublimation and it sounds like it's the closest to what I want (correct me if I am wrong). Also possibly the water based inks but that's a different category in the forum.

Here's my question re: dye sublimation. I understand that it only works with light colored shirts and must be used with man made materials (polyester, nylon etc). I have two A&F shirts that have great prints on them - light, blended in with the fabric, you can hardly tell it's a print, looks and feels as if it's the pattern of the fabric. I came to a conclusion these are made using dye sublimation. The thing that throws me off is that one the shirts is dark brown (which makes sense if it is dye sub.) BUT the other one is very light grey. Now I am not sure what kind of a print it is. Could someone tell me what is it? Is there another printing process I don't know about? Also can you guys tell me how to insert a pic in the thread, I have some images of these shirts and thought it might be helpful if you could see what I am talking about. 
Thank you very much.


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## cprvh (Jan 23, 2006)

*Re: A little confused*

You are correct that the dye sublimation process will provide the softest "hand" or feel. Actually, you will feel nothing! There is nothing, except the dyes, transfered to the shirt. 

You are also correct with the fact that you cannot dye dark fabrics. We can dye the fabrics darker, but not lighter. Yes, you can use dyesub on colored shirts, but only with darker colors. We print a bunch of the lime green "safety" shirts each year with black images only. We recently printed an order of red poly shirts with black text and logos. I, personally was not too impressed, but the customer was...and that is what count$.

It would be helpful if you could post a picture of the shirts in question.


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## MotoskinGraphix (Apr 28, 2006)

*Re: A little confused*

Sublimation printing is great if you dont like dark fabric and want to purchase 65-35 blanks. It is better suited for mugs and whatever that are polimer coated. There are so many more printing possibilities other than sub for all kinds of shirts.....and substrates....why limit yourself?


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## jdr8271 (Jun 16, 2005)

*Re: A little confused*

The ironall/miracool paper is really soft. Try that before resorting to dye sub, as it is much cheaper. If that doesnt do it for you, then yea...dye sub you will not feel anything just fabric. Dye sub will end up costing you like $5-6 per shirt, as apposed to digital heat transfer which costs about $2.50 per shirt.


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## D.Evo. (Mar 31, 2006)

*Re: A little confused*

Hello and welcome!

With dye sublimation the design is permanently dyed into the fabric - it's not detectable by touch and will never crack or fade. You will also have the advantage of photo quality full-colour prints. 

I doubt your dark brown t-shirt was sublimated (unless all colours of the design are even darker than the shirt itself). Light grey colour t-shirts usually sublimate nicely. If you want to PM me you pictures I might have a better idea.

You are right about man-made fabrics - a garment for sublimation should be at least 65% polyester for good results. There are new types of polyester t-shirts on the market that feel exactly like cotton – see www.dyesub.org for info and links to Vapor Apparel. 

There are topical treatments available for fabrics with < 65% polyester content to make them "sublimation-friendly", but I personally don't like the result - after several washes the design will look a bit faded. Good for promo T’s though.
There is also special fabric that helps to sublimate onto cotton, 50/50 or dark colours. It comes in sheets with paper backing and placed between the garment and transfer paper - when heat-pressed it will permanently adhere to the garment creating soft-feel “patch” with your design. 

Good luck!


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## Annushka (Jul 26, 2006)

*Re: A little confused*

Hi folks,

thank you for the replies. I just realized I posted my question wrong, I should've said "my dark brown shirt was the big surprise..." but you understood me anyways  Also I forgot to mention that both shirts are 100% cotton!

So the bottom line is that this is not dyesub and the question still remains - what is it and how did they achieve it. I'm just thinking out loud - Abercrombie is a big guy in the apparel industry and probably has resources in Asia and/or Middle East with technologies not available to smaller print shopts here in US. A&F has the ways and means to achieve the softest-hand feel on its pieces regardless of their color of fabric. Does this make sense and do you think this is the case? 

D.Evo. thanks for the


> There is also special fabric that helps to sublimate onto cotton, 50/50 or dark colours. It comes in sheets with paper backing and placed between the garment and transfer paper - when heat-pressed it will permanently adhere to the garment creating soft-feel “patch” with your design


 I will look it up.

jdr8271 thank you also. I will look into it.


> The ironall/miracool paper is really soft. Try that before resorting to dye sub, as it is much cheaper. If that doesnt do it for you, then yea...dye sub you will not feel anything just fabric. Dye sub will end up costing you like $5-6 per shirt, as apposed to digital heat transfer which costs about $2.50 per shirt.


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## JJanesdesign (Jul 31, 2006)

*Re: A little confused*

*I was curious about something. I read you post D.Evo and you said that the dye-sub works well on the 65% poly. I was under the impresion that the quality was poor at best. It was sugested I use only a 50-50 blend where the outer most portion of the shirt was polyester and the inner was cotton. But, what I hear you say it that you can sublimate on the 65% poly and still have a nice product. Did I understand you corretly? *

*Jeff R*
*J Janes Designs*


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## MotoskinGraphix (Apr 28, 2006)

*Re: A little confused*

The higher the polyester count the better. Sublimation inks dont bond with cotton at all.


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## T-BOT (Jul 24, 2006)

*Re: A little confused*

soft-hand multi-color plastisol transfer feel soft as if there is nothing there.  

places like Impulse and Airwaves make them too.


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## Rodney (Nov 3, 2004)

*Re: A little confused*

The dark brown t-shirt could have been printed with water based inks or maybe even printed with a direct to garment printer.

If it was mass produced, it's possible that the design might have been dyed right into the fabric before it was sewed?


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## Annushka (Jul 26, 2006)

HI guys,

Lucy you are saying that there are plastistol transfers that have almost that same soft feel as dyesubs? I have been to a few local shops in my area and all of them use plastistol only and they all feel pretty harsh to touch. I am trying to find Impulse and Airwave online but can't find their sites. If Rodney doesn't mind can I have their website addresses - either over a post or maybe you can PM me. Thank you 

Rodney you were asking:


> If it was mass produced, it's possible that the design might have been dyed right into the fabric before it was sewed?


 I thought about that but it's not the case. I checked, right where the shirt collar is you can see the paint break so it was definitely applied after it was assembled. Parts of the letter actualy came out on the inside of the back of the shirt, the pics will explain it better than me 

I am going to attach some pics of it, hope it works. Let me know if you can tell more by them. The Armani one has just a slight feel of the paint to it and that one I can't tell much about - it could've been dyed into the fabric before it was put together as Rodney mentioned. But it still is incredibly soft.

Thank you all very much


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## jdr8271 (Jun 16, 2005)

It is screen printing with water based inks, most likely. Thats what it looks like to me.


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## Annushka (Jul 26, 2006)

Thanks Jon.

The water based inks - are they known for their durability? I have had the A&F shirts for almost a year now, and I've been wearing these a lot. I can't even imagine the amount of times they've been washed. The prints have remained the same, not even a sign of wear-tear-chipping or anything. The quality (to me) is great. So given this fact - do you still think it's water based screen printed? Are these kind of clothes known to last long?

Thanks


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## jdr8271 (Jun 16, 2005)

Yea, they will last forever basicly. Screen printing, if done proberly will last longer than the garment. Waterbased ink just has a softer feel, almost like the ink is part of the fabric.


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## D.Evo. (Mar 31, 2006)

*Re: A little confused*



JJanesdesign said:


> *I was curious about something. I read you post D.Evo and you said that the dye-sub works well on the 65% poly. I was under the impresion that the quality was poor at best. It was sugested I use only a 50-50 blend where the outer most portion of the shirt was polyester and the inner was cotton. But, what I hear you say it that you can sublimate on the 65% poly and still have a nice product. Did I understand you corretly? *
> 
> *Jeff R*
> *J Janes Designs*


Depending on your purpose, I suppose. I have printed on 65% poly promotional shirts with very reasonable results and clients were happy. In some cases I was increasing colour density by 30% (more ink). I must admit, I don't know if the product would look any different after numerous washes. 
As David said, the higher polyester content - the better. I personally prefer to use 100% poly t-shirts (Vapor Apparel).


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## Annushka (Jul 26, 2006)

jdr8271 said:


> Yea, they will last forever basicly. Screen printing, if done proberly will last longer than the garment. Waterbased ink just has a softer feel, almost like the ink is part of the fabric.


YOu just made my night  Thanks my friend. I really hope this is the answer, than all I'd need is to find a good contractor to print my shirts.


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## Solmu (Aug 15, 2005)

Annushka said:


> I really hope this is the answer, than all I'd need is to find a good contractor to print my shirts.


I'd agree with Jon about both the durability, and the probability that that's what they used to print those particular shirts.


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## Annushka (Jul 26, 2006)

Thanks Lewis,

I am glad to hear that! I just posted a help-wanted ad on screenprinters.net. Let's see how that goes 

Months ago I bought some Jaquard textile paints from our local art store, some stencils and was playing around with my shirts at home. I couldn't continue because I couldn't find anyone to make custom stencils for me . Than I started reading about different kinds of techniques and paints etc and thought that water based was probably "amateur" and wouldn't result in a product fit for sale to consumers. It looks like I am back to them after all. I am glad my instincts were right


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## Solmu (Aug 15, 2005)

They do have their drawbacks (the biggest aesthetic drawback being that they're not as opaque - which could be an advantage for some designs), but if done properly they're perfectly professional.

You can actually print a professional quality t-shirt at home with waterbased inks, but curing with a home iron is a massive pain for any kind of quantity (and still a pain even for one offs).


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## Annushka (Jul 26, 2006)

I can imagine Lewis. I didn't do awful too many myself, but got the overall picture of the at-home-with-iron process after just a few. I just posted a question under my other thread trying to find out what it would take me to do these on my own on a more professional level. In the meantime I'll be browsing the forum to put some pieaces together in my head on this. 

Thanks again


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## JJanesdesign (Jul 31, 2006)

*Thanks D.Evo. I have done a lot of research and everyone has said to 100% polyester or the 50/50 with outer shell of the shirt being 100% polyester and in cotton. Some of these are quite price but I want to provide a quality product. I will try you suggestion and but the shirt through the test. Maybe have my teenage son and his friends wear them playing and stuff. This way I can truely see how the look after several wash and wear cycles. This way I can tell people and even show them what it will look like before and after washing. *

*Thanks again. You all are great and have given much more ideas and things to do. I like what one guy said. "Why limit yourself to only one way of doing t-shirts". I am keeping all my options open. *
*Have a great day all. *


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## Annushka (Jul 26, 2006)

Hi guys,

I just talked to one printer re: printing with waterbased inks, he told me he can do light shirts but for dark ones I'd need to find someone to do discharge printing. Is this true? Please advice.

Thank you,
Annushka


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## quilterk8 (Sep 10, 2005)

How about discharge dye process?? What you're seeing could easily have been done that way - It's a noxious process where the dye is removed from the fabric with a chemical applied like screen print ink.


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## Annushka (Jul 26, 2006)

quilterk8 said:


> How about discharge dye process?? What you're seeing could easily have been done that way - It's a noxious process where the dye is removed from the fabric with a chemical applied like screen print ink.


Kathy,

Is discharge dye process different than discharge printing? If so, could you tell me how? Thank you.

Annushka


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## quilterk8 (Sep 10, 2005)

Nope, it's the same. I just stated it in a convoluted manner...


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## Annushka (Jul 26, 2006)

quilterk8 said:


> Nope, it's the same. I just stated it in a convoluted manner...


Oh I see.... (English is my third language, so I had to look up the "convoluted"...you live, you learn...)

OK, the discharge is fine, except, I have a feeling my shirts (or at least most/some of them) won't be suitable for discharge printing. I emailed the manufacturer to see if they are not (reactive and non-reactive issue). I'm keeping my fingers crossed. 

I'm also unsure what the outcome, quality-wise will be, since this process sounds like it "weakens" the thread. My shirts are really sheer and light-weght and I'm afraid they might wear off too soon. Please correct me guys if I'm wrong.


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## Solmu (Aug 15, 2005)

Annushka said:


> I just talked to one printer re: printing with waterbased inks, he told me he can do light shirts but for dark ones I'd need to find someone to do discharge printing. Is this true?


Somewhat.

Waterbased inks are a lot more hit and miss than plastisol (i.e. some brands are good, some aren't). Even a good opaque waterbased ink won't be as opaque as plastisol. So yes, you can print on dark coloured shirts, but it's harder to get a good result.


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## Annushka (Jul 26, 2006)

I emailed him a little while ago, asking - if I'm OK with it, would he mind trying screen printing with darks anyways. Some of my shirts are vintage/washed style, so I think not-so-opaque look woudn't hurt. I think it's do-able. Thank you Lewis.

Speaking of the ink brands. Any recommendations for water based ones? I'll be searching the forum for it in the meantime. Thanks everyone.




Solmu said:


> Somewhat.
> 
> Waterbased inks are a lot more hit and miss than plastisol (i.e. some brands are good, some aren't). Even a good opaque waterbased ink won't be as opaque as plastisol. So yes, you can print on dark coloured shirts, but it's harder to get a good result.


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## kim turner (Jul 28, 2006)

Sawgrass is now coming out with a new sublimation transfer and inks for the Epson r1800, 4800, and c88+ that will allow you to transfer onto white or light colored 100% cotton fabrics.


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## Annushka (Jul 26, 2006)

Thanks Kim,

that's good to know.


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## polomac (Jun 27, 2006)

The T-shirts are water based prints. I use Water based inks to screen print
huge orders. It gives a soft feel compared to plastisol the Mira cool is a good
transfer paper for small orders, my clients like it. For huge orders i think it's
best to screen print and the more you print the lower cost of print. Well at least that how it works where i am. Bring your t-shirt to a screen printer and they can help you with the method of print used.


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## Annushka (Jul 26, 2006)

Annushka said:


> I emailed the manufacturer to see if they are not (reactive and non-reactive issue). I'm keeping my fingers crossed.


I just got an answer from the manufacturer. All of my shirts except for one are reactive dyed. So I'm all set in case I do go with discharge printing. What about water based screen printing? Is this good news for it or the other way around?

Thank you.


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## fortino (Oct 10, 2006)

Annushka said:


> HI guys,
> 
> Lucy you are saying that there are plastistol transfers that have almost that same soft feel as dyesubs? I have been to a few local shops in my area and all of them use plastistol only and they all feel pretty harsh to touch. I am trying to find Impulse and Airwave online but can't find their sites. If Rodney doesn't mind can I have their website addresses - either over a post or maybe you can PM me. Thank you
> 
> ...


i'm pretty sure these are discharge prints, which is a hideous technique using a corrosive bleach that is screenprinted and then steamed to eat out the pigments. it is difficult to achieve consistent colours as the mix of chemicals, garment colour, temp. of steam and time all play a factor. i'm having the same problems; i want a hand-print-free technique, without resorting to discharge, which is environmentally unfriendly.

there is a company called tsdesigns who use a technique called rehance, which sounds great, but is expensive, and they're not sharing the knowledge.

does anyone know if dye sublimation, or a similar technique would work on bamboo fibre, as it is a cellulose fibre?


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## Ky_swish (Oct 10, 2006)

Discharge Printing Will Work On Both 100% Cotton, Or A Combo Of 30% Bamboo With 70% Cotton..this Has Become A Very Desirable Shirt..weight Of 145 Gsm


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## Rodney (Nov 3, 2004)

After getting some water based screen printing t-shirts from oddica, I'm sure you could get similar results with water based ink screen printing.

There is absolutely zero hand on the brown, multi color printed designs I bought from them. It's pretty amazing.


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## Annushka (Jul 26, 2006)

HI Rodney,

do you know if all of oddica's shirts are water based screen printed? Colors look great on their stuff.

Thank you



Rodney said:


> After getting some water based screen printing t-shirts from oddica, I'm sure you could get similar results with water based ink screen printing.
> 
> There is absolutely zero hand on the brown, multi color printed designs I bought from them. It's pretty amazing.


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## Rodney (Nov 3, 2004)

> do you know if all of oddica's shirts are water based screen printed?


I ordered a few different designs and they were all printed with water based inks. 

That's also what they say on their FAQ page 



> *What is water-based ink?*
> Oddica tees typically are printed with water-based ink, which has a soft feel, and more breathability than typical Plastisol. Water-based inks are durable and have become standard inks for large companies such as Volcom, Quiksilver, and Paul Frank.


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## Annushka (Jul 26, 2006)

Thank you 



Rodney said:


> I ordered a few different designs and they were all printed with water based inks.
> 
> That's also what they say on their FAQ page


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## instrumental (Dec 28, 2006)

hello all.

that is most likely waterbase clear discharge printing with the use of pigments instead of actual waterbase or plastisol...i am in the midsts of trying to perfect this technique... extremely soft


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## Fred (Jan 17, 2007)

*Re: A little confused*



MotoskinGraphix said:


> Sublimation printing is great if you dont like dark fabric and want to purchase 65-35 blanks. It is better suited for mugs and whatever that are polimer coated. There are so many more printing possibilities other than sub for all kinds of shirts.....and substrates....why limit yourself?


Sublimation better suited for mugs?

What do you feel is the problem with sublimating shirts?

I am just curious.


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## Rodney (Nov 3, 2004)

> What do you feel is the problem with sublimating shirts?


I'm not David , but one of the problems I see is the limitation on the COLOR of shirt you can print on. Not being able to print on dark garments with white ink is one downside of sublimating t-shirts.


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## Solmu (Aug 15, 2005)

Rodney said:


> I'm not David , but one of the problems I see is the limitation on the COLOR of shirt you can print on. Not being able to print on dark garments with white ink is one downside of sublimating t-shirts.


Dyesub is a lot less restrictive than digital inkjet transfers in that regard though, since it has no problem with pale colours (pink, yellow, blue, etc.) rather than having to print on light heather, natural and white. Not being able to print on dark garments with white ink is pretty much a downside to desktop print technology in all its forms.


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## Rodney (Nov 3, 2004)

> since it has no problem with pale colours (pink, yellow, blue, etc.)


I wouldn't say "no problem", since there isn't white ink for dye sub, so the garment colors show through just like an inkjet transfer.


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## ed2fun (Dec 29, 2006)

Hey Guys, check out this site. http://www.equineaddicts.com/Mountain-Preview/Zoo/images/10_2075.jpg It has several dark shirts and awesome prints. The site discusses "no hand", all natural, eco friendly process. I think their screen printing with water based inks to get "no hand", but I'm puzzled about the dark shirts / eco friendly process. Here you talk about not being able to print on darks with water based inks, unless you use a discharge process. That would mean it's not eco friendly, right? 
Check out the site and let me know what you think.


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## Solmu (Aug 15, 2005)

Rodney said:


> I wouldn't say "no problem", since there isn't white ink for dye sub, so the garment colors show through just like an inkjet transfer.


The garment colours show through, but not "just like an inkjet transfer". True, it's not really "no problem" (a portrait photo would most likely look pretty odd for example), but without an ugly box or outline to deal with it's a pretty different kettle of fish.

Someone should scan some coloured fabric dye sub samples at some point. It's not perfect by any means, but it can probably do more than most people realise.


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## Solmu (Aug 15, 2005)

ed2fun said:


> Here you talk about not being able to print on darks with water based inks, unless you use a discharge process.


That's not true - you can print on darks with waterbased inks without using discharge. It might have been true at some point in the past, I don't know (I get the impression waterbased inks have come a long way since they first came out), but it's not true now.


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## ed2fun (Dec 29, 2006)

Hi Solmu, here is one of several quotes in this thread about discharge. 



fortino said:


> i'm pretty sure these are discharge prints, which is a hideous technique using a corrosive bleach that is screenprinted and then steamed to eat out the pigments. it is difficult to achieve consistent colours as the mix of chemicals, garment colour, temp. of steam and time all play a factor. i'm having the same problems; i want a hand-print-free technique, without resorting to discharge, which is environmentally unfriendly.
> 
> there is a company called tsdesigns who use a technique called rehance, which sounds great, but is expensive, and they're not sharing the knowledge.
> 
> does anyone know if dye sublimation, or a similar technique would work on bamboo fibre, as it is a cellulose fibre?





Solmu said:


> That's not true - you can print on darks with waterbased inks without using discharge. It might have been true at some point in the past, I don't know (I get the impression waterbased inks have come a long way since they first came out), but it's not true now.


Solmu, I noticed you said that you didn't know for sure, when you made your comments above. Did I misunderstand the previous post, about needing discharge to screen print, full color, water based inks, on dark / black shirts?
My previous post includes a link (web site), so everyone could see an example of the quality of prints, darks shirts and other data to help clarify my questions. You did not mention seeing the site, so I have no reference to the quality, printing process your suggesting above. Could you be more specific, when you state "it's not true now"? 
Could you give an example of who's doing this, your experiences, or pictures of the items printed in the manner, you stated above (without discharge)? 
Thanks


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## Solmu (Aug 15, 2005)

ed2fun said:


> Solmu, I noticed you said that you didn't know for sure, when you made your comments above.


This is an old thread, you're going to need to be more specific than "above". I glanced over my posts and didn't see anywhere where I said I was unsure (like I said, old thread so I can't remember everything I've said).



ed2fun said:


> Did I misunderstand the previous post, about needing discharge to screen print, full color, water based inks, on dark / black shirts?


I don't know what you may or may not have understood. If you are under the impression that you *need *discharge to screenprint on dark fabric (without using plastisol, obviously), then you've either misunderstood or been misinformed (the latter being a distinct possibility, as a lot of that goes on). It's one way to do it, it's not the _only_ way to do it.

As I've said, waterbased ink is not as opaque as plastisol (although that's a bit overstated), and it can have issues to work out printing on dark fabric. But yes, it is totally possible. When someone says they "can't" print on dark fabrics it is "somewhat" true, because they can't be bothered making it happen. On the other hand it's not true that it can't be done.



ed2fun said:


> Could you be more specific, when you state "it's not true now"?


"It's not true on this day Friday the 19th of January in the year 2007 of the common era at approximately five hours after midnight that you can't print using waterbased inks on dark fabric and get a satisfactory result. Nor has it been true for quite some time (precisely how long is a matter of history, and my background does not extend to a time before this technical achievement could be made)."



ed2fun said:


> Could you give an example of who's doing this


Oddica, as mentioned upthread by Rodney (it's possible they're using a discharge underbase, but personally I doubt it).



ed2fun said:


> your experiences


It works. I've done it. I'm still not clear on what it is you want from me?


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## ed2fun (Dec 29, 2006)

Hi Solmu, thanks for the prompt reply. I guess you sensed my frustration / confusion, in my last post (12:21 PM-EST, upthread). I did not intend for those feelings to be directed at you. I got the feeling you may have though they were. I was having a tough time sorting out the facts, not just yours. Don't worry about answering my questions. I'll do more research. Thanks for the time you've spent on this, thus far.
Oh, do I have a chance to look at that cert. anyway?  Just ,kidding!


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## Solmu (Aug 15, 2005)

ed2fun said:


> Hi Solmu, thanks for the prompt reply. I guess you sensed my frustration / confusion, in my last post (12:21 PM-EST, upthread). I did not intend for those feelings to be directed at you. I got the feeling you may have though they were.


Yeah, I tend to be overly sensitive to those kind of things, sorry. I actually came by this thread first thing on my rounds to apologise.



ed2fun said:


> Don't worry about answering my questions. I'll do more research.


Research would probably help so you can get it a bit more straight and know which questions to ask, but do feel free to ask questions and I'll see if I can answer them (no guarantees, but I can give it a shot). I don't know much about discharge, but other people here (Fluid for example) do it, so someone should be able to help you out.

Since this thread is 1) Old, and 2) Is in the dye sublimation section, you might have better luck starting a new thread in the screenprinting section of the forums.


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## ed2fun (Dec 29, 2006)

Thanks Solmu!


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