# Doing research and sales of DTG machines



## Printzilla (Mar 22, 2007)

*Re: Can you ruin your print head by....*



Don-SWF East said:


> I have seldom heard the question asked by a potential client either. Sales people (in all markets) are trained to listen and respond to a potential client's needs and wants. I doubt that a car salesman would go out of his way to mention expected tire, belt and battery life unless he were prompted to do so.


Which is just one of the many problems with this industry. If they don't ask don't tell. Then later people get on here and ***** and moan that they were not told everything. The sales people care more about the P&L sheet of today than they do the future of the company, the customer, or their reputation. 

Most of the manufacturers seem so afraid to fully disclose everything about their machine, but have no problem pointing out the weakness' in other companies products.

Why not just be honest and have full disclosure up front? Why not "train" the sales people to teach and guide, not just sell. You say they are trained to respond to the customers wants and needs, most of them really have no idea what they want or need. They are new at this. They need guidance, not some line of canned BS sales talk learned from a tape or a seminar on how to be a "POWER CLOSER"


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## sunnydayz (Jun 22, 2007)

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I totally agree Mark, I think that the break down for alot of people is between the sale and learning the machine properly. It seems that when you are buying, they make it sound super simple and then when the customer gets the machine, there are so many things they did not anticipate. I was ok because I did alot of research before my purchase so I didnt really depend on the company to learn. I am one of those people who is self taught in so many different things, its just the way I do things. But there are the majority who do not do thorough research and jump in, then they dont know what to do because things were not explained well for them.

It would be great if the people selling the machines educated the customer on what is required before they get the machine, instead of the customer having to find out later that there is alot more to know then they thought. I talked to every different distributor at 2 different shows before I bought my machine, and I was suprised at how little the sales people actually knew about each machine. In fact some I knew were giving me totally false information, I wont name companies  I felt swf west was the most honest and knowlegable though, which is one of the reasons my mind was swayed that direction.

There were so many that just wanted to make that sale at any cost, and it made sense because they did not have to take care of the customer after the fact. So basically I got the impression because they would pass them off to tech support later, they just really didnt care whether the machine was right for the customer or not. I think that is a big problem, that they will sell a machine to anyone, even if it isnt right for that persons business. I understand the whole, hey we have to make a living thing, but doesnt it cost a company more in the long run on constant tech support and repairs for someone who does not understand what they are doing?


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## raise (Apr 11, 2008)

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Printzilla said:


> Why not just be honest and have full disclosure up front? Why not "train" the sales people to teach and guide, not just sell. You say they are trained to respond to the customers wants and needs, most of them really have no idea what they want or need. They are new at this. They need guidance, not some line of canned BS sales talk learned from a tape or a seminar on how to be a "POWER CLOSER"



I wholeheartedly agree with this statement and sentiment.


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## Don-ColDesi (Oct 18, 2006)

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I do not disagree that there are sales people out there that want to close a sale at all costs. Fortunately, they do not last long as you can't do this forever and last in this industry. I will say that many customers also "oversell" themselves on the equipment they buy. I have had many conversations trying to "talk customers down" from one of our printers to another - only to have them buy the higher priced, higher performance machine and then not have the business to keep it busy and begin to suffer the side effects of lack of use syndrome! 

Anytime you are buying capital equipment you need to educate yourself prior to beginning your product search. Just as a car saleman expects that you know that the car will use gas and oil and needs new tires occasionally, a printer salesman will assume that you know that the machine will need printheads, dampers and other small items to keep running. I'm not sure what everyone means by "full disclosure" to me it means - ask me a question and I won't withhold any information from you regarding that item. In regards to presenting a full disclosure of a worst case scenario - I don't see that happening anytime soon in any marketplace with any product. 

Besides - I'm in sales, and I just disclosed this information!

I say we take the sales guys out, tie them to a cactus and let the rattlesnakes work things out with them.


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## Don-ColDesi (Oct 18, 2006)

*Re: Can you ruin your print head by....*



> Why not just be honest and have full disclosure up front? Why not "train" the sales people to teach and guide, not just sell. You say they are trained to respond to the customers wants and needs, most of them really have no idea what they want or need. They are new at this. They need guidance, not some line of canned BS sales talk learned from a tape or a seminar on how to be a "POWER CLOSER"


Marc,
It is truly considered a cardinal sin to teach and guide folks about a buying decision. I know that sounds crazy to some, but it is true. The process of "pulling the trigger" on any product is an emotional one, not a logical one. 

Let me ask you all this - a customer calls and is interested in buying 24 t-shirts - green - with a large back print and small chest print. Do you educate them on the washability benefits of brand x vs. brand y, and the eco-friendly policies of company z. or the impact that a certain color of imprint will have over the color of the imprint they gave you? Do you really concern yourself with whether they are wearing them only once or will be using them as uniforms to be worn almost daily? OR, do you just quote them a price and then take the order? Honest answers please.


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## Printzilla (Mar 22, 2007)

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I have been in sales all of my adult life. Before starting in the Tshirt business, I was in sales and then management for Circuit City. One thing I never did was ASSUME the customer knew anything. I felt it was my job to inform them.

You can hardly compare a specialized piece of equipment with an automobile that everyone has been around for over 100 years. 

You say "ask me, and I will tell you", I say just tell me. How do I as a new business, or an existing, sign, embroidery, or screen shop know what questions to ask about DTG's?


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## Printzilla (Mar 22, 2007)

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Don-SWF East said:


> Let me ask you all this - a customer calls and is interested in buying 24 t-shirts - green - with a large back print and small chest print. Do you educate them on the washability benefits of brand x vs. brand y, and the eco-friendly policies of company z. or the impact that a certain color of imprint will have over the color of the imprint they gave you? Do you really concern yourself with whether they are wearing them only once or will be using them as uniforms to be worn almost daily? OR, do you just quote them a price and then take the order? Honest answers please.


Depends on the customer. Has this customer bought 1,000 shirts from ME in the past? If so, he has been educated, and if I see him making an error in judgment, I will try to correct it once. If he then insists on his way, I will inform him that I think it is an error, take no responsibility, and then print the job.

A new client will get the full education that I can offer them, as long as they are willing to listen. I understand that they will eventually do what they think is best, but it will be with as much information as I can possibly give them.

On the flipside of that coin, our retail, walk up, internet, one off customers get no education. They are spending 5-30 bux, not $500-$100000, and I know what is best, so they get that!


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## Printzilla (Mar 22, 2007)

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Don-SWF East said:


> . The process of "pulling the trigger" on any product is an emotional one, not a logical one.


Ridiculous! - I know some do it that way, and that is the whole problem. Do you think when I bought my HM-1's from you it was emotional at all? It was the best tool for the job at hand. When I bought my most recent printer, I consulted you, Harry at Equipmentzone, as well as others. I had a need (to be able to print 48" long), I purchased the tool that best met that need. It had ZERO to do with emotion.

I know all the Zig Ziglar sales talk. Push the right buttons, take advantage of buying signals, etc....I have been to, and taught more sales classes than I care to remember. I am not saying the sales process cannot have fun and emotion, but that is not what the decision should be made on. 

Don't get me wrong, I know if a salesman can make a sale he is going to do it for whatever reason, because if he doesn't take advantage of the emotion, they guy on the other side of the aisle at the show will. That doesn't make it right, or the best way to do business!


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## raise (Apr 11, 2008)

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Specifically with capital purchases, there should be an increased amount of pre-sales support and discussion.

Why sell a product in a manner that sets up the user to be caught unaware and unhappy with the final outcome? Sell a product with all of the pitfalls and benefits upfront and companies would not have to spend as much on technical support for confused and unprepared users. This would leave more money to advance R&D and expand company bandwidth.

A disgruntled customer will end up eating far more time and effort unless they are just ignored and left to fend for themselves. Some of the gripe threads on this board and others indicate that experience may not be unlikely. Those same disgruntled customers then bad mouth the companies or even the technology as a whole and simply set back the entire scene.


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## Don-ColDesi (Oct 18, 2006)

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> I had a need (to be able to print 48" long), I purchased the tool that best met that need. It had ZERO to do with emotion.


But, maybe a bit to do with pricing?

Please understand, I'd love it if every person would buy based on pure logic and reason. They don't. I think most of you who have dealt with me on a sales level know that I love to spill my guts about the the whole process. Fact is, if a cord is not struck, the trigger will not be pulled, the majority of the time, especially when it comes to the first time buyer. I'm not arguing right or wrong here - only reality. 

I'm outta here - I feel like a mouse at a cat convention!

Peace!


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## Printzilla (Mar 22, 2007)

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Don-SWF East said:


> But, maybe a bit to do with pricing?


Certainly. But I do not think anyone can blame me for that.


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## raise (Apr 11, 2008)

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Don-SWF East said:


> ...
> Please understand, I'd love it if every person would buy based on pure logic and reason. They don't. I think most of you who have dealt with me on a sales level know that I love to spill my guts about the the whole process. Fact is, if a cord is not struck, the trigger will not be pulled, the majority of the time, especially when it comes to the first time buyer. I'm not arguing right or wrong here - only reality. ...


So ping emotion after you have laid down and presented all the facts. I'm not saying to discount the power of using emotion to sell a product, I'm asking why not be responsible and before pulling on the sex/love/money/power/happiness/fear strings foster a sales approach that starts with an upfront education about what your product excels at and what it sucks at and what it takes to achieve that? Then once you get the hard stuff out of the way, you will end up with a much better qualified lead.

I have to put my disclaimer out there, I have little to no experience in garment printing at the moment. We purchased an embroidery machine and a Versacamm just recently and are just getting our feet wet in this arena. I would have purchased a garment printer but none and I do mean none of the companies I contacted for Tjet or DTG Kiosk responded back to me after multiple emails and requests. Turns out to be a blessing in disguise as I don't think I would have been happy with the after-sales support level in retrospect. I do have many years in IT consulting, sales and process improvement (my current job and previous side business) and am quite familiar with having to educate my customers extensively before they are ready to purchase.


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## sunnydayz (Jun 22, 2007)

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I have to say that when I bought my machine it was a totally well thought out decision on my part, and emotion was no part of that decision. It was strictly based on my business and what I felt fit that plan. I understand that most are not as methodical as I was in making that decision and that is what I am talking about, that the sales people should make sure that this customer knows what they are getting, to avoid a problem customer later.

As far as your scenario for the order above Don, I guess I must be too honest or something. Because I am very honest with my customers and make sure they know exactly what to expect from my product. I tell them how to wash the garment for better life of the garment. I always expain why I use the particular garment I am printing, what they can expect from the colors between the finished product and what graphic they supply me with. I try to educate the customer of why I think my product is the best.

On my webstore of course you dont have the oppertunity to talk to the customer so it is very unlikely in those sales that you will be able to explain as well. But I inspect every garment being shipped out and make sure it is up to my expectations. I produce each garment as though I were producing it for myself and what I would expect. I think that is a big difference of the smaller business owner compared to the larger business owner. Quality control 

Don I appreciate getting your feed back on this thread as I think it is very helpful for potential machine owners to understand that it is not only the machine companies responsibility as well as the potential owner to fully educate each other in the process, And they should also make sure to educate themselves well before a purchase.


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## sunnydayz (Jun 22, 2007)

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raise said:


> So ping emotion after you have laid down and presented all the facts. I'm not saying to discount the power of using emotion to sell a product, I'm asking why not be responsible and before pulling on the sex/love/money/power/happiness/fear strings foster a sales approach that starts with an upfront education about what your product excels at and what it sucks at and what it takes to achieve that? Then once you get the hard stuff out of the way, you will end up with a much better qualified lead.
> 
> I have to put my disclaimer out there, I have little to no experience in garment printing at the moment. We purchased an embroidery machine and a Versacamm just recently and are just getting our feet wet in this arena. I would have purchased a garment printer but none and I do mean none of the companies I contacted for Tjet or DTG Kiosk responded back to me after multiple emails and requests. Turns out to be a blessing in disguise as I don't think I would have been happy with the after-sales support level in retrospect. I do have many years in IT consulting, sales and process improvement (my current job and previous side business) and am quite familiar with having to educate my customers extensively before they are ready to purchase.


The stuff I have posted is not meant to turn people away from the machines  I actually own the HM1 and absolutely love it. If you go into it knowing what to expect you will be very happy. I guess my point was that too many people just jump in and dont think there is anything to mantaining the machine. that is a wrong assumption as any commercial equipment takes care to function well. My point was more that because people dont understand this, it would be nice for the sales people to give more education in this area before they purchase.

I did my research well and have been a very happy customer. My tech support has also been great when it has been needed and handled very quickly. I think I definately made a wise choice when I purchased my machine and have been glad of that desicion right from the start, and still am. I just think that people looking need to understand that the sales people will not always tell them everything, so its best to do their homework and know what to expect.


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## raise (Apr 11, 2008)

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sunnydayz said:


> I produce each garment as though I were producing it for myself and what I would expect. I think that is a big difference of the smaller business owner compared to the larger business owner. Quality control


If only every company focused on each customer as though that customer might be their last one instead of fishing for an easier catch.

I applaud your approach to business and Printzilla's for that matter. Those same focuses on education, support and right-sizing solutions are what made my consulting business successful and funded this foray in garment decoration.

Sorry for assisting Printzilla in derailing this thread but I'm pretty passionate on this subject and I think it is an important aspect of business that all owners can identify with and should remember when they are more successful and have more business than they can handle.


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## raise (Apr 11, 2008)

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@sunnydayz

I actually really wished things had gone differently as I see a perfect fit for a garment printer in our business plan.

I'm waiting and watching for some company to display a better level of support. Maybe actually responding to emails and requests for samples would be a good start


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## sunnydayz (Jun 22, 2007)

Just wanted to let everyone know I have seperated these posts from the other thread and given it its own place. I think this is great info for those looking to purchase, and to understand the buying process better. It is very important for potential buyers to understand that they really need to educate themselves fully before jumping in. The way I did it was I looked at the fact that I was going to learn as much as I could, that way I was fully responsible for what I got and what I expected in my machine. I have been very happy with mine do to the fact that I did the right research.


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## sunnydayz (Jun 22, 2007)

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raise said:


> @sunnydayz
> 
> I actually really wished things had gone differently as I see a perfect fit for a garment printer in our business plan.
> 
> I'm waiting and watching for some company to display a better level of support. Maybe actually responding to emails and requests for samples would be a good start


Who did you try to contact at dtg? which distributor? I wonder if your email ended up in spam which happens so often nowadays 

I always check my spam folders to make sure something important doesnt end up there. I know it can be a problem for alot of people 

Its wierd that you would not get a contact back, because they have always responded very quickly for me.


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## raise (Apr 11, 2008)

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sunnydayz said:


> Who did you try to contact at dtg? which distributor? I wonder if your email ended up in spam which happens so often nowadays
> 
> I always check my spam folders to make sure something important doesnt end up there. I know it can be a problem for alot of people
> 
> Its wierd that you would not get a contact back, because they have always responded very quickly for me.


DTG:
Filled out the contact sheet on DTG America - Digital Garment Printers twice. No response for samples or sales info.

TJet:
Equipment zone sent 3 emails regarding samples and service options. No response.

While I understand Equipment Zone is not the manufacturer of the TJet, I was looking at the lower cost of getting a refurb. I was leaning much more to purchasing a HM1 if I was going to pay full price for a new unit.

My experience may not be typical but it did happen and the first question that probably comes to mind is "Why not call them?"

I use email to document my discussions with companies and make sure everyone knows what the situation is without "he said, she said". If a company can't answer its email or the sales leads generated by its website, how is it going to manage working with me in general?

Conversely, I got good response times, straight replies and every sample I asked for when I shopped for my vinyl printer/cutter. We weren't really sold on vinyl initially but after getting no response from garment printers, we took another look at our business plan and shopped the samples around to see if our market would accept vinyl.

I still think we could make a big splash with a good inkjet printer but having to worry about how well I'll be supported after the sale puts a real business dampner on the idea.


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## sunnydayz (Jun 22, 2007)

If I were you depending on what area you are in, I would send an email to the local distributor of the machine. I know the dtg america site is mesa in texas and the main website but the local distributor in my opinion is going to be much more helpful. I sent a email to my local distributor which was SWF west and I got a reply the same day when I first sent an inquiry to them. I dealt with the same person thru the whole 9 month process of purchasing and making my decision. They were very helpful.


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## Don-ColDesi (Oct 18, 2006)

A quick defense here. I can only defend myself, since I am the only one I control (and I sometimes fail at that!). I think you all can see that I am genuinely concerned about not only my customers, but Mesa's customers and the DTG market as a whole. So please, don't paint me with the broad brush!

Gotta go test some ink!

Happy Printing!


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## equipmentzone (Mar 26, 2008)

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I am sorry if you did not hear back from us. We do try to respond to every email we get. Especially if you're looking for sample prints and information on buying a printer since, lets face it, selling machines is a huge part of our business. I am surprised that you did not receive a response from us but I suspect that if you did send 3 emails they may, somehow, not have reached us. While email is normally quite reliable it does happen on occasion and we have found emails mysteriously listed as "spam". Please give me a call at 1-800-408-0040 and I will make sure that we get a sample pack out to you immediately.

Harry


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## sunnydayz (Jun 22, 2007)

Harry, that was what I suggested earlier in the thread  I know I find stuff in my spam folder all the time from people that I had no idea sent me something  I think anyone seriously looking to buy a machine should contact the companies directly by phone as you are dealing with a live person, and not technology that can be faulty at times. Email is notorious for throwing stuff in spam.


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## pitbell85 (Mar 12, 2008)

The best thing to do is to ask as many questions as you can, and to talk to other owners and see what they have learned from their experience. As long as you follow a daily maintenance routine most any machine should last a long time.


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## vinyl signs (Dec 26, 2007)

Well doing the research could be a problem. I just got back from the Baltimore NBM show and there wasn't any HM-1 there nor did T-jet go! If these companies want to show what they have you would think they would go to all shows with their equipment! If they only want to go to the bigger shows they are loosing sales! SWF puts on their own extravagavza's and the only machine they take is the Kiosk 2! How is someone to research the other machine? Then you have Equipment Zone which isn't all that far from the Baltimore show and they don't go!

So now my question 
Does the HM-1 print better than the Kiosk2? I know it is faster but what about the print quality!

Also is the T-Jet2 basically the same machine as the Kiosk using an other rip? These two machines look very similar I know that the DTG uses dampers and the T-jet uses basic epson cartridges with a bulk fill.


TIA from the users and others that have researched!


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## sunnydayz (Jun 22, 2007)

Hi Brian,

I cant believe they didnt have the hm1 there, I too think that was a bad move on their part as the Hm1 in my opinion has alot more to offer then the kiosk2. There are a few differences which in my opinion make the HM1 a better machine. There is the auto height adjustment which makes it nice for raising and lowering your printbed, it also has a safety gap sensor so you dont go to high. It has the white ink agitator that is nice to keep your white ink mixed. The print quality in my opinion is alot nicer as it is based on the R2400 printhead and the kiosk is based on the 2200 so different drop size and amount. And yes it is faster 

It is very wierd that they didnt bring it though hmmm. I know the original kiosk and the tjet were actually built by the same company. So I think the kiosk II and the tjet II are both still based on the 2200 printhead.


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## nabs (Apr 14, 2007)

I have to come to Don's defense here. I purchased my DTG from him at a show. He was absolutely great to work with and very informative. He was printing light green shirts at the time and my husband wanted to see a pretreated shirt print on the machine. Don was willing to show us everything and he wasn't a salesman, he truly wanted us to buy what was right for us. He has always been there to help me when I had a crisis with the machine. The Kiosk comes with packets of information to help you along the way. You can't blame it all on the sales people. I know my machine would be completely destroyed today if I didn't keep up with the cleaning routine. Yes, there are problems sometimes, but most of the time, it is user error. I've said my peace. Don, my husband and I think you are great. 

Happy Printing.

Nabs



Don-SWF East said:


> A quick defense here. I can only defend myself, since I am the only one I control (and I sometimes fail at that!). I think you all can see that I am genuinely concerned about not only my customers, but Mesa's customers and the DTG market as a whole. So please, don't paint me with the broad brush!
> 
> Gotta go test some ink!
> 
> Happy Printing!


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## sunnydayz (Jun 22, 2007)

As I said earlier I appreciate that Don is participating in this conversation. I think Don is a great guy 

I was talking in general and not about anyone in particular. My point was that I think people need to be aware when looking for a machine that it is their responsibility to do research and learn because, I know, I have been to several shows and the majority of people I spoke to, told me what I wanted to hear and not what I needed to hear. Heck several didnt even know as much as I did. Just like if you look on any distributors site, the cost of ink on a shirt is way off from reality, there are many things a person needs to know and not depend on the sales person for that knowledge.


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## nabs (Apr 14, 2007)

Hi BobbieLee,

I wasn't attacking any post, I just wanted to let everyone know that Don is very good at telling you the truth and the whole truth. He also really knows the DTG machines.

I have met some sales people that try to sell you everything under the sun, but I ignore them and don't buy from them. Like you said, if you do the research ahead of time, you should be good to go on your own. I also found that this website really helped in my decision process of what DTG to buy. 
Nabs


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