# How to Penalize / Discipline Employees for Costly Mistakes?



## admedia (Mar 23, 2015)

Hello,

I have been in business for about a year now, and so far have not had a system in place for penalizing or really any disciplinary actions on employees, mainly screen printers, who make costly mistakes.

I am wondering how common it is to make the employee who made the mistake to eat the costs of the damages, and also to make up the mistake on his own time and not during work hours? I am thinking of writing up some sort of contract stating that if the mistake is more than $50 dollars then this will come out of their paycheck or they are required to stay after and make up for it etc. What are the most ideal options for me?

Also, I know that some mistakes will happen that aren't their fault, thats all fine with me, but for example earlier last week an employee printed about 100 shirts on the wrong side.. the design was supposed to go on the back of the shirt and not the front, however they failed to comprehend this even when the instructions state to double check the design instructions and templates given to them. I feel like as a business owner I should not eat those costs for their incompetence, and I also dont necessarily want to fire them and find another printer either, so the only way I see it justified is if they make it up to me.

What do you guys do or what type of actions / rules do you have in place for this stuff?


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## john221us (Nov 29, 2015)

If you are in the United States, you won't be able to recoup your loss from your employee legally.


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## admedia (Mar 23, 2015)

john221us said:


> If you are in the United States, you won't be able to recoup your loss from your employee legally.


What makes you say that? I have researched the laws, (i'm in Florida btw) and employers in Florida can actually deduct any amount for any reason from their employees without even requiring them to sign a contract. Ofcourse I'm only going to do when its justified as I still in the end of the day want to have good output and happy employees. I just dont want to turn the other cheek every single time its some blatant mistake and have them take my kindess for granted.


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## PatWibble (Mar 7, 2014)

Training and supervision. If the guy isn't capable of doing the job, then you shouldn't have him doing it.

Why is the guy getting to the end of a 100 shirt job without anybody checking the work? You, or a supervisor/manager, should insist on seeing the first proof print on all jobs, an giving the go ahead.

If it is an ongoing problem then you may ultimately have to dismiss him, if you have grounds to.


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## abchung (Jul 16, 2009)

PatWibble said:


> Training and supervision. If the guy isn't capable of doing the job, then you shouldn't have him doing it.
> 
> Why is the guy getting to the end of a 100 shirt job without anybody checking the work? You, or a supervisor/manager, should insist on seeing the first proof print on all jobs, an giving the go ahead.
> 
> If it is an ongoing problem then you may ultimately have to dismiss him, if you have grounds to.


Totally agree.

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## john221us (Nov 29, 2015)

admedia said:


> What makes you say that? I have researched the laws, (i'm in Florida btw) and employers in Florida can actually deduct any amount for any reason from their employees without even requiring them to sign a contract. Ofcourse I'm only going to do when its justified as I still in the end of the day want to have good output and happy employees. I just dont want to turn the other cheek every single time its some blatant mistake and have them take my kindess for granted.


Apparently I Florida you can, but it cannot cause the employee to go below minimum wage. So, you can only deduct the difference between the wage the employee makes and minimum wage. Likely the employee will just quit and you will have no further recourse. It doesn't seem like a good idea to me. Just write them up and let them know if they do it again they are gone.

http://www.employmentlawhandbook.com/wage-payment-laws/state-wage-payment-laws/florida/#6


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## Signature Series (Jun 11, 2016)

PatWibble said:


> Training and supervision. If the guy isn't capable of doing the job, then you shouldn't have him doing it.
> 
> Why is the guy getting to the end of a 100 shirt job without anybody checking the work? You, or a supervisor/manager, should insist on seeing the first proof print on all jobs, an giving the go ahead.
> 
> If it is an ongoing problem then you may ultimately have to dismiss him, if you have grounds to.


So agree with the above. As business owners we some times tend to blame employees for mistakes when really we should be looking in the mirror to see the real issue. Surely mistakes happen but they are greatly reduced with the right procedures, training etc. I could not even imagine taking money out of an employees check for a mistake. Unless you have desperate employees that cannot get a job anywhere else (which is an issue by itself) you would have a mass walkout and never be able to hire a good staff.


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## crazymike (Aug 18, 2008)

If you water board them they usually wont do
it a second time.


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## admedia (Mar 23, 2015)

crazymike said:


> If you water board them they usually wont do
> it a second time.


I'll have to wait until Trump gets elected for that one


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## crazymike (Aug 18, 2008)

If Hillery get in she will be doing that to those who don't agree with her.
I may have to go to Canada.


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## Hotpuppy (Sep 21, 2016)

A few things I did that worked well:
1) Establish an incentive program. I did Free Pizza Fridays. No screwups for the week beyond our normal allowances and I buy pizza the following Friday for the shop. 
2) Written standards and counciling. Write them up for repeated mistakes that violate your standards. You'll need this to defend against unemployment claims.
3) If you feel the need to "hit" them monetarily..... suspensions. 1 day is expensive, 3 days is serious, and 5 days says get out. They normally quit on a 5 day suspension. You must have your ducks in a row.
4) There are times where you just need to pay unemployment and move on. In these instances you grab a witness you can trust, go find the person and say "I've enjoyed working with you, but your services are no longer needed." You then walk them out the door with no further discussion. You give them a written, short letter, that says you no longer need their services and the employment has been terminated. Be prepared to cut them a check for any wages you owe them. At that point you walk them off the property and supervise the collection of any personal items. I've had to do this a few times when I lost the ability to trust someone. It's tough, but it's efficient and avoids any messy squabbles.


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## Hotpuppy (Sep 21, 2016)

Oh, and it's illegal to take money out of their check. Mistakes are your problem, not theirs.

Their employment is their problem and you can absolutely take that away. You have to be fair or your good employees will jump ship.


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## Austenite (Oct 21, 2015)

Just as a point of reference, and also for anyone in Australia, the Australian Taxation Office has a page listing the differences between contractors and employees, here.

It's worth skimming all the points, but for this discussion in particular, the section about commercial risks for an Employee says:


> Commercial risks: the worker takes no commercial risks. Your business is legally responsible for the work done by the worker and liable for the cost of rectifying any defect in the work.


And if that makes you wondier if you should employ people as contractors, then the next section for Employees says:


> Control over the work: your business has the right to direct the way in which the worker does their work.


while for a Contractor:


> Control over the work: the worker has freedom in the way the work is done, subject to the specific terms in any contract or agreement.


So in the end it's part of the cost of being in business, and that's why you need to charge a sufficient margin. That's why good training and supervision is worth money, and why you get to keep the profits when mistakes *aren't* made.


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## MuddyWater (May 22, 2015)

I agree with everyone else. What you're asking, is if you can put the risks of running a business onto the employees and as the business owner the risks are your problem. If you don't want to run the risks, you're better off selling the business and becoming an employee. That's why they get paid a static wage and you get the opportunity to make a whole lot more.

I run a teaching shop, where we're training printers and designers via an apprenticeship program. For me, mistakes are a daily part of life, but as a boss I've found that 90% of all errors come from poor communication and supervision. For those mistakes that are due to pure negligence, we have a counseling system. The employee gets pulled aside, we talk about it and they get given a written document similar to an Army DA 4856 form that lays out what we talked about. After 2 counselings in a 90 day period, they're on probation for 90 days and another counseling means they're cut from the program.

I used to have a lot of problems with people changing distressing, sizes or just not printing certain films if they thought they were duplicates. The way we solved that was by training the designers on the press for a couple days so they had a better understanding of the process, and then having them output the films themselves so it matched what they intended and the client was shown. We also revamped our order system. Now every order has a copy of the order sheet that specs the size, placement, colour of apparel, pantone inks and number, along with an 8.5"x11" print of the art and the design mock-up that I or the designer built when it goes to press, and films are checked before ever going to the darkroom to make sure they match the artwork. At every step, someone has to sign off on that order sheet that they understand it and all the documents match. That might seem like a lot of paperwork and hoops, but I have a new printer coming in every 3 months and we manage to limit our mistakes to the same level or lower than most other shops I've worked in.


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## john221us (Nov 29, 2015)

Hotpuppy said:


> A few things I did that worked well:
> 1) Establish an incentive program. I did Free Pizza Fridays. No screwups for the week beyond our normal allowances and I buy pizza the following Friday for the shop.
> 2) Written standards and counciling. Write them up for repeated mistakes that violate your standards. You'll need this to defend against unemployment claims.
> 3) If you feel the need to "hit" them monetarily..... suspensions. 1 day is expensive, 3 days is serious, and 5 days says get out. They normally quit on a 5 day suspension. You must have your ducks in a row.
> 4) There are times where you just need to pay unemployment and move on. In these instances you grab a witness you can trust, go find the person and say "I've enjoyed working with you, but your services are no longer needed." You then walk them out the door with no further discussion. You give them a written, short letter, that says you no longer need their services and the employment has been terminated. Be prepared to cut them a check for any wages you owe them. At that point you walk them off the property and supervise the collection of any personal items. I've had to do this a few times when I lost the ability to trust someone. It's tough, but it's efficient and avoids any messy squabbles.


On point number 4, we are in California and our attorney had us add an "At Will" employment clause to our employee handbook (you need to do this). What you describe is an "At Will" dismissal, where you cannot give a reason for the dismissal, other than you are exercising your "At Will" employment clause. This does provide some protection from discrimination type lawsuits. Of course, in reality, employees can and will sue, even if they are wrong (attorneys take it on contingency, so no risk to the employee) and what ends up happening is they are betting on you settling before it goes to court (which is what usually happens, as attorneys are very expensive). It is a legal form of blackmail.


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## Hotpuppy (Sep 21, 2016)

john221us said:


> On point number 4, we are in California and our attorney had us add an "At Will" employment clause to our employee handbook (you need to do this). What you describe is an "At Will" dismissal, where you cannot give a reason for the dismissal, other than you are exercising your "At Will" employment clause. This does provide some protection from discrimination type lawsuits. Of course, in reality, employees can and will sue, even if they are wrong (attorneys take it on contingency, so no risk to the employee) and what ends up happening is they are betting on you settling before it goes to court (which is what usually happens, as attorneys are very expensive). It is a legal form of blackmail.


Fortunately in Texas you should be lucky to have a job. The wind might shift and I might no longer want to have you as an employee and I don't need any other reason than that.

I once had my customer service lead bring me a notebook filled with times and temperatures and a schedule of when we ran the dryer. He had been filling in for a girl who worked for me. I concluded she was documenting for a heat related workers comp claim. I couldn't ask or confront her about it. I shredded the notebook and when she came back from lunch I told her and her brother that I had enjoyed working with them but they were no longer needed. I terminated them both on the spot. If I had confronted that would have meant I knew what was going on. An order fulfillment person (pack and ship) shouldn't be tracking dryer times and shop temps. 

Yes it's hot. I tell everyone I hire that it's a hot sweaty job and you stand all day. I give everyone a personal fan, we had a water fountain/cooler, and it just is what it is. Hey, by the way, it's toasty warm in the winter.  But it's 105 in the summer and if you can't take the heat it's not for you.

I listed job requirements of:
- tolerate hot working conditions up to and including 105 degrees ambient.
- stand all day
- lift and carry 40 pound box as needed
- read and follow written and verbal instructions.
- Read, speak, and write clearly in English.


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## binki (Jul 16, 2006)

We fired them. We had them sign our policy when hired and they were suspended or fired according to that. One day we had 4 jobs in a row come up bad and sent everyone one and had a team meeting the next day. Finally, in the end we just fired everyone, changed our model to not accept smaller orders and we are much happier now and making more money that we did with employees screwing stuff up.


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## Hotpuppy (Sep 21, 2016)

binki said:


> We fired them. We had them sign our policy when hired and they were suspended or fired according to that. One day we had 4 jobs in a row come up bad and sent everyone one and had a team meeting the next day. Finally, in the end we just fired everyone, changed our model to not accept smaller orders and we are much happier now and making more money that we did with employees screwing stuff up.


Ouch. Hiring employees is expensive.

It's been 5 years since I had my shop running, but I used to insist that they bring me the proofs and the strikeoff before going to production. I would sign off on the proofs freeing them from being responsible for mistakes. I sometimes missed stuff, but more often than not I spotted where my money was about to burn.

If I was out I had the printers see my artist who was my right hand man. 

If I was running the press (which I sometimes did) then I took it to my artist to get signoff. It's hard to proof your own work.


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## binki (Jul 16, 2006)

We had all kinds of things like putting the wrong name/number drops on the wrong shirts, putting glue for patches on the wrong side, cutting garments, spilling coffee all over them and just low quality in production. We closed the doors, sent everyone a termination letter, moved and reopened.


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## Hotpuppy (Sep 21, 2016)

binki said:


> We had all kinds of things like putting the wrong name/number drops on the wrong shirts, putting glue for patches on the wrong side, cutting garments, spilling coffee all over them and just low quality in production. We closed the doors, sent everyone a termination letter, moved and reopened.


Wow. 

Did you change the company name when you moved?

I thought I would be okay with going back to the corporate world, but I can't stand it. I'd literally rather make half as much but own my shop with fewer benefits and be happy doing what I do.

I loved making things and helping customers. I hate sales with a passion, but I hate corporate politics and bs even more.


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## binki (Jul 16, 2006)

Nope, same name.


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## Desweaver (Nov 15, 2015)

Attempting to dock an employee's pay for making mistakes could open a Pandora's box of legal headaches. If they prove to be unable, (or unwilling), to follow simple instructions, it would probably be better to just fire them. However, unless you are a very busy shop and 100 shirt orders are pretty normal for you, I would have checked in much earlier than that. I don't believe in babysitting employees, but clear communication early prevents costly mistakes later.


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## Hotpuppy (Sep 21, 2016)

The net of it is that as the owner you are responsible for quality control, absorbing mistakes, and enjoying profits. I can't imagine not checking the proofs against the strikeoff. It's like having someone proofread your work. You just can't proof your own work as well as someone else can.

I always think of this as teamwork, not babysitting. I'm like a coach. I gently encourage improvement, chide bad behavior, cheer success, and recognize excellence. I'm also not afraid to jump in and lead by example. 

Over the 9.5 years I ran my shop I tried all the different management styles and techniques. Coaching worked best for me and I liked the results. I hated being a jerk.

The only place I remain hard nosed is with sales people. Sell or go to hell. Literally, sell or get out. Stay off my house accounts, go find some business and earn commission.


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## Chrisa62401 (Aug 12, 2016)

When I worked for a screen printer we had a system where the owner would want to see the first shirt off of the press. That was all fine and dandy except he was always leaving and not very approachable when he was there. He would get pissed off and start yelling if the first shirt was wrong.
He still has a high turnover of employees.


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## sinGN (Oct 12, 2016)

Hi,
Educate them correctly about costly products.


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## APlusDesignsInc (Jan 27, 2016)

A few things I did that worked well:
1) Establish an incentive program. I did Free Pizza Fridays. No screwups for the week beyond our normal allowances and I buy pizza the following Friday for the shop. 

Sorry, I don't know how to quote other posts, but the above post I think is spot on. Positive reinforcement is always a better idea than the opposite. When our number of flaws got out of hand we had a meeting and set goals. I asked each printer to write on a piece of paper how many flaws they thought was acceptable for a month. Based on the numbers they put on the paper I gave them a collective goal for the next month. Each time they had a flaw that could have been avoided they had to change the number of flaws on the white board. Then at the end of the month, the flaws had decreased by almost 50%. And, the reward was a pizza party. Since then I do other things as well. If someone has a larger order with zero flaws I will buy them a soda, or an ice cream cone. 

It sounds trivial or simple, but it works. Keep the atmosphere positive. Punishment sends a negative message to all your employees. I can understand the frustration. Some days I want to scream about flaws that could have been easily avoided.


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## AMotivation (Jul 15, 2016)

What systems do you as the leader have in place to make sure it doesn't happen in the first place? 

Fear of punishment is the easy route for you as the leader.. it won't inspire long term success and loyalty from your employees. There should be a system of checks and processes in place for each day and each order. 

Also. If fear of punishment is your route. Do you have an equal and opposite system for rewards when they do a good job? Do they get a bonus? 


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## freebird1963 (Jan 21, 2007)

admedia said:


> What makes you say that? I have researched the laws, (i'm in Florida btw) and employers in Florida can actually deduct any amount for any reason from their employees without even requiring them to sign a contract. Ofcourse I'm only going to do when its justified as I still in the end of the day want to have good output and happy employees. I just dont want to turn the other cheek every single time its some blatant mistake and have them take my kindess for granted.


Better reread the law then. I am in florida. THis is from a attorney.

Normally your boss cannot deduct money from your check for mistakes. This is especially true if that would take you below the federal minimum wage. For example you can look at this fact sheet from the Department of Labor. [media]http://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs16.pdf[/media]. You should speak to an attorney to find out if there is a more specific law in Florida that will protect you from these deductions even if you are not being paid minimum wage...

also
Unless there is some written agreement or policy for the deduction due to mistakes, the employer should not be deducting money that you have earned.

Then go read this (link in lawyer reply above) 
[media]https://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs16.pdf[/media]


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## admedia (Mar 23, 2015)

AMotivation said:


> What systems do you as the leader have in place to make sure it doesn't happen in the first place?
> 
> Fear of punishment is the easy route for you as the leader.. it won't inspire long term success and loyalty from your employees. There should be a system of checks and processes in place for each day and each order.
> 
> ...


The reward they get is to have a reliable job with always on time paychecks. People these days want more and more out of companies, when all they really need to give you is a damn paycheck. Part of their job is to do a good job, if you don't you're not going to be in my company for long. And for the record I don't mind giving people what ever salary they want. IF someone comes to me and says hey I need 16 bucks an hour, I'd say alright sure. But he better do a perfect job and be on point every day. 

I don't personally believe in pizza days, free stuff here and there, and just those little stupid incentives. Maybe I'm old school but I just can't get myself to do those small things. You come to work to work, and I pay you. Simple as that.

As for systems I have developed long and detailed documents outlining the process that everyone is to follow. I've spent a ton of time writing them and I perfect them almost every day adding new tidbits here and there.


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## AMotivation (Jul 15, 2016)

Ok fair enough. 

As I said. Fear of punishment alone won't inspire loyalty and quality from your employees. You may get a few good runs out of them but it won't guarantee they'll be around for the long haul. 

If they have something they want to work towards though then that has a better chance to inspire them to work harder and with better quality. If they have something to achieve then they'll have something good to look forward too. 

If they come to work and all they are thinking about is not making mistakes or they'll get less off of their paycheque then that's a high stress environment. That sort of stress won't keep employees around. You'll be going through them like crazy. Then it'll be a process of training new people a lot and best believe they will make a lot of mistakes too!


As for the system, simplicity is key. They need to be able to glance over it at the beginning of every shift. To keep it fresh in their minds how to do the job right until it becomes a habit. 

If it's a long document then let's be honest, who wants to read that on a regular basis. 


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## APlusDesignsInc (Jan 27, 2016)

admedia said:


> I don't personally believe in pizza days, free stuff here and there, and just those little stupid incentives. Maybe I'm old school but I just can't get myself to do those small things. You come to work to work, and I pay you. Simple as that.


It's not stupid if it works...


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## Printavo (Oct 7, 2007)

PatWibble said:


> Training and supervision. If the guy isn't capable of doing the job, then you shouldn't have him doing it.
> 
> Why is the guy getting to the end of a 100 shirt job without anybody checking the work? You, or a supervisor/manager, should insist on seeing the first proof print on all jobs, an giving the go ahead.
> 
> If it is an ongoing problem then you may ultimately have to dismiss him, if you have grounds to.


+1 on this. Many shops will get a proof checked out by a mgr before going full speed ahead. Try to improve the process first.


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## Signature Series (Jun 11, 2016)

AMotivate hit it on the head.

Managing by fear is not managing at all. It is what people do when they do not have management experience or are not a "people person".

Look at some of the most dynamic companies ranging from Starbucks to Google to Apple, etc. They attract the best talent because of their work environment. You want the best people to be part of your company than you have to provide an environment to attract such. If you want a bunch of slackers manage by fear.


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## BDave (Jan 27, 2008)

Still all points can miss from checking goods correctly to not reading work orders outputting film incorrectly pulling wrong file - then you weigh plus and minus and hope at end of year you turn profit.


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## ultraprintworks (Mar 2, 2015)

You're making the mistake by not making them get approval before running production. A detailed tech pack should be provided as well to keep mistakes to a minimum. I would suggest changing your job procedures to prevent this.


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## STPG Press (Jul 6, 2015)

No offense intended to anyone, but if you're unsure if you're going to turn a profit until the end of the year, and the reason is based on your spoilage, then you won't last as a business very long.

To another point here. The true fault seldom lies with the guy/gal on the production line. Their jobs are pretty straightforward. If a mistake is made and it wasn't checked by management, then the fault lies at management, not the production line.

Never give a person a job they can't handle, no matter how busy or shorthanded you are. If you need better talent, then so be it. Go find better talent. Just never set your people up to fail.


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## admedia (Mar 23, 2015)

STPG Press said:


> No offense intended to anyone, but if you're unsure if you're going to turn a profit until the end of the year, and the reason is based on your spoilage, then you won't last as a business very long.
> 
> To another point here. The true fault seldom lies with the guy/gal on the production line. Their jobs are pretty straightforward. If a mistake is made and it wasn't checked by management, then the fault lies at management, not the production line.
> 
> Never give a person a job they can't handle, no matter how busy or shorthanded you are. If you need better talent, then so be it. Go find better talent. Just never set your people up to fail.


I was going to say the same, my post wasn't intended in a way that I need help to survive and my employees are costing me the business, we are very profitable. However I believe in systems and optimization, and I do have a manager so I mainly was seeking the best system or procedure for him to implement in order to fix future mistakes and optimize the work flow.

We have him checking off on each print job, but its becoming a bit of a annoyance for him to have to walk out to the machines each time, the printer should be competent enough not to make silly mistakes. But perhaps there are other ways to handle it which I have though of.

Other ways is build out an ipad station so they are able to pull up the design and see right away in front of them what they are printing.

Have a surveillance camera pointed on the press so the manager can check off without leaving his office.

Just some thoughts to optimize speed up the process.


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## 739530 (Dec 13, 2016)

If an employee is costing you money due to his lack of ability or lack of willingness i see only one option, you fire him.
Next time you be more careful on choosing.


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## admedia (Mar 23, 2015)

ROUGH HANDLING said:


> If an employee is costing you money due to his lack of ability or lack of willingness i see only one option, you fire him.
> Next time you be more careful on choosing.


EVERY single one of my employees has made costly mistake here and there. You can't just fire everyone for mistakes, I'd be left with nobody but myself....


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