# Don't hate me because I'm beautiful



## binki (Jul 16, 2006)

Don't be angry with me when I


*Don't charge a setup fee.* My business model allows me to work with 'out-the-door pricing'. This makes my customers happy because they know how much they will be charged without any surprises or industry jargon. After all, how many of your customers know what a 'tape charge' covers?
*Charge less than you.* A capitalistic model, like what we have in the USA, guarantees that the customer will get the lowest price through competition. Your high profit margin is what attracted me to the business in the first place. The first thing you learn in Business 101 is to charge the highest price the market will pay. The second lesson is to charge a price low enough to prevent competitors from entering your market. Guess what, you fell asleep after lesson 1, I didn't.
*Have lower overhead than you. *So I purchased the latest equipment and software that makes my operating costs lower and thus I can price lower. Yes, your expensive graphic artist is talented and has years of experience but my customer just wants his logo at a reasonable price.
*Provide services to customers you would not touch. *Yes, I do one-offs, short runs, and provide services you would never do because your hourly rate won't allow you to service these customers. It is my business, not yours. If you don't want these customers then don't tell me I shouldn't service them.
I don't see that much, if any, griping at this forum about stuff like this, but holy cow, a few other forums that I frequent is filled with posts by the same 8 guys all complaining about how some guy in his garage bought a cheap cutter and photoshop and is selling product for as little as 5% of their selling price. They wax-poetic about the good old days when they charged for setup by color, a high hourly rate, their craft involved lots of labor and required a learned skill, etc, etc, etc. Give me a break. No business model stands still and those that fail to adjust will go out of business. 

Remember White Front, Grants, Montgomery Ward? Others that nearly went out for good (and some still may), K-Mart, Harley Davidson, Sears. 

So, don't hate me because I'm beautiful.


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## highstyleinc (Apr 4, 2007)

Feel better?


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## binki (Jul 16, 2006)

Yes I do. There is another forum out there where 50% of the threads are 'look at what this guy did, it's just awful'. Responses often include other berating of the job and descriptions of the 'good old days' when they were free to charge for their 'creative work' rather than just doing what the customer wanted. 

The one that sent me over the edge was this morning where a guy was complaining about the awful artwork that the client wanted. He wasn't complaining about the format or quality of the art from a usability standpoint, he just thought it was ugly and wanted to change it. I just don't get it. If someone gives me something that he wants printed, as long as it is doable, why would I argue?

My intent is more to spur conversation on business models and how to successfully operate in this space. I am actually happy when my competitors get angry with me. We operate with a business model that allows us to charge less and make money. We operate in a space that has a lot of pent up demand that has gone unsatisfied. We are backlogged with about 3 weeks of work now since November. We work about 40 hours each week so it is pretty much full time now.


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## tim3560 (Jan 7, 2007)

I just don't like when people like the one's you describe are complaining period. If this one guy that they're complaining about is really out of his home or garage then he should be having a very hard time and should be working much harder than the guys with storefronts are to get his sales. I know that I had to when I started. Good for him for not being a couch potato. 

If he's taking their sales and getting all of their business I think that that is mainly their problem, not his. However, if he really is underpricing that badly, then he *is* hurting the market and ultimately himself, since as he grows and has larger overhead, he will still have to give his customers the same low prices and will have to accept a lower profit margin.

I don't see how 5% of their charges could be realistic. The guy wouldn't be able to make a living doing that. That's like if I was charging $8.50 for each t-shirt, he would be charging less than $0.50. How would that work? Unless these complainers are charging way to much to start with.


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## mk162 (Sep 24, 2007)

One problem with printing horrible artwork is if people ask where they got those shirts from, I don't want my name associated with it. People won't look at the quality of the print, just the design.

Um, also how does buying the latest software and equipment make it so you have a lower overhead? Most of our stuff is paid off.

Also, what is the purpose of this post? Did you just want to compare size or something?

Our business model is ever-evolving. We have to change to what the market is doing, these aren't drastic changes, just small(er) ones. As competitors come and go, it's nice to see that we are still here and stil making money.


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## Moo Spot Prints (Jul 16, 2006)

tim3560 said:


> However, if he really is underpricing that badly, then he *is* hurting the market and ultimately himself, since as he grows and has larger overhead, he will still have to give his customers the same low prices and will have to accept a lower profit margin.


Says who? He's free to jack up his prices once he drives the competition out of business. Happens all the time.



tim3560 said:


> I don't see how 5% of their charges could be realistic. The guy wouldn't be able to make a living doing that. That's like if I was charging $8.50 for each t-shirt, he would be charging less than $0.50. How would that work? Unless these complainers are charging way to much to start with.


Materials cost for printing a basic one color shirt is on the order of $3. If you have lots of spare time (or are very bad at business) you can get away with not charging for it. It's the same principle that applies to outsourcing. If you pay less for labor, you can charge less for your product.

Being an engineer that's locked up in a cubicle most of the day, I have been pretty naive about the business world. One thing that's been VERY apparent to me is that there is very little true competition out there. Prices are fixed in almost every industry to preserve profit margins. 

If you've been in that system long enough, of course you're going to ***** if somebody doesn't play by the 'rules'!


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## binki (Jul 16, 2006)

mk162 said:


> Our business model is ever-evolving. We have to change to what the market is doing, these aren't drastic changes...


My point exactly.


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## mk162 (Sep 24, 2007)

Well, if you don't change to market conditions, you will fail. Let's face it, business is different now than it was 10 years ago. What worked then, might not work now.

Of course, finding a niche and filling it is probably the best route to take. It seems you have found one. The guys that do amazing custom, almost retail like work have also found theirs. It's all a matter of what you want your market to be.

We are starting to focus on nicer embroidered apparel since we make more per item than sewing the basic polos. Less work and more money.


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## Chani (Jun 18, 2007)

I agree that if you can realistically charge a lower price, you should be able to, but you also need to consider other things.

Mark was telling me about three sign companies in Alabama when he lived there. Two of them had existed for quite some time. Then a third came in and started undercutting the other two. Those two had to lower their prices to get work. Then the newbie lowered his prices even more, then the other two had to follow suit if they wanted any jobs. This went on for a while until they were all charging so little that they weren't actually making any money on what they were selling, and all three went out of business within about a month of each other.

Competition is a good thing, but you also need to consider the market. If you have lower overhead and you charge less than everyone else, fine, but soon the market will EXPECT much lower prices, and when your overhead goes up, you won't be able to offer those lower prices anymore and you won't be able to compete.

This has been one of the factors to jobs being outsourced to other countries. People now expect such low prices now that American companies can't compete. We lose jobs.

I'm not saying that companies shouldn't adjust to current market conditions, but you still have a responsibility to the market as a whole.


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## binki (Jul 16, 2006)

The 5% example I used was for printed vinyl banners. Some guy was offering something like under a buck/sqft in a market that normally sells $10/$20 a square foot. 

The latest battlefront seems to be vehicle wraps. The skill is in the application which does require some amount of knowledge but it isn't rocket science. There is a ton of margin in wraps right now and that very fact is what attracts competition. As more competitors enter the space, the price must go down.


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## mk162 (Sep 24, 2007)

Supply and demand, if too many people offer their services, you're right, it becomes more competitive. Same thing as in screen printing, there are so many shops that come and go because they figure they can survive off of lower prices than their competitors. The problem is, they went too low.


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## Rodney (Nov 3, 2004)

> I don't see that much, if any, griping at this forum about stuff like this, but holy cow, a few other forums that I frequent is filled with posts


I'm glad you've found this forum to be a bit "different" than other forums


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## treadhead (Jul 26, 2006)

binki said:


> Don't be angry with me when I
> 
> *Don't charge a setup fee.* My business model allows me to work with 'out-the-door pricing'. This makes my customers happy because they know how much they will be charged without any surprises or industry jargon. After all, how many of your customers know what a 'tape charge' covers?
> *Charge less than you.* A capitalistic model, like what we have in the USA, guarantees that the customer will get the lowest price through competition. Your high profit margin is what attracted me to the business in the first place. The first thing you learn in Business 101 is to charge the highest price the market will pay. The second lesson is to charge a price low enough to prevent competitors from entering your market. Guess what, you fell asleep after lesson 1, I didn't.
> ...


Great post Fred!

I agree with your comment about not seeing much griping on this forum about such things. I have visited several other forums and most if it is just as you describe. Which is why my home is here!!  

You make some very valid points. We don't charge setup fees, design charges or screen charges but offer one price that covers everything and we are still lower than them according to customer feedback and our own research. There are many that don't agree with that but they typically state their point but don't berate it here.

Hey..if I can live confortably with my pricing structure and offer something different than the other guys in town...why not? I'm not responsible for the other guys. Do you think they are worried about me?? Now, I'm not purposely trying to close down businesses but rather shake things up a bit. In our area, there have been a few guys in town for many years and they pretty much offer the same services and prices for screenprinted work. We came in with a different idea and are making it work. Trust me...if I can raise my prices successfully...I would!.  

We've invested in technology (DTG & vinyl cutter) that allows us to do low volume (as low as 1 shirt) and use indirect (plastisol) & direct screenprinting for higher volume jobs. My brother-in-law is a good degreed graphic designer that also helps us manage the business / store. 

In a nut shell...we go where others do not and don't want to go with their business model. The market will decide if we are right or wrong.


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## binki (Jul 16, 2006)

Rodney said:


> I'm glad you've found this forum to be a bit "different" than other forums


Most forums are dominated by a few who chase away all newcomers that have a different opinion or ask a naive question. This one has many contributors and lots of questions in many categories. It is simply the best all around garment decorating and promotional product forum.


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## Catbox (Oct 3, 2007)

There's one dude on another site... who's name i wont mention that thinks it's all about him... Posting about what he's up to and what he thinks and if anyone questions his judgement... he goes nuts... kinda sad... lol

These forums are cool... A lot of great info to be found and everyone has been nice and helpful...


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## tcrowder (Apr 27, 2006)

There is a great deal of "tough love" on the board Fred is speaking of, or it might be just a bunch of grumpy people LOL. I have found though, the other board is not cluttered with the same questions over and over and over and over and over and over again!

Not that I agree with the toughness toward ALL newcomers on the other board.

It would be nice though, if more people did a little leg work and used a search box prior to asking a question that has been asked multiple times already.

You would be surprised how much information is sitting right in front of you if you just take the time to open your eyes. 

Another observation is, almost without fail, newcomers to this board say.... "I'm starting or have my own clothing line"... I'm sorry but if you heat press, screen print, DTG, or sub out your work to others, you are a service provider! If I claim to have my own clothing line, that implies I design, manufacture and sell wholesale to the retail world.

Now, you will notice, I have seperated all my comments to make it easier for you that think I'm a grumpy old fart to reply to each comment with quotes. 

If you have a moment and want to do something nice, check out this fundraiser to help show support for our troops and their families.

USMC Families LLC


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## Comin'OutSwingin (Oct 28, 2005)

tcrowder said:


> Another observation is, almost without fail, newcomers to this board say.... "I'm starting or have my own clothing line"... I'm sorry but if you heat press, screen print, DTG, or out your work to others, you are a service provider! If I claim to have my own clothing line, that implies I design, manufacture and sell wholesale to the retail world.


Actually very few clothing lines manufacture their own clothes. They outsource almost EVERY single bit of the process to other companies.

Just to let you know, I have my own clothing line, I outsource my work to others, I'm not a newcomer, and I have orders for my clothing to be in stores.

Having a clothing line doesn't imply that you manufacture anything. Check out how the big boys do it, and I would challenge you to find those that make their clothes in house, screen print their clothes in house, tag their clothes in house, and even ship them from their own location.

Those that do that will be VERY few and far between.

They are facilitators. They come up with designs and concepts, then get other companies to actually make them, print them, and get them to the market.

This isn't just those in the "t-shirt" companies, but almost all types of clothing in stores is done this way. Shoe companies, companies that make suits, pants, dresses, sweaters. 

Do a little research and I think you'll find this to be the case.


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## tcrowder (Apr 27, 2006)

Greg,
I didn't think I needed to give the websters version of what I was saying. I guess I was wrong though.

I know full well there are many that frequent this forum that are doing just as you. I think this a great forum for that very reason! It is rare to find so many, so willing to share information freely with the masses. 

On the other hand, a person with a heat press in the spare bedroom can hardly be considered a cloting line. They are simply not in the same category as you. As most know Badalou does what seems to be a huge amount of heat pressing, I have never heard him claim to have his own clothing line though! I myself have pressed hundreds of shirts. I purchase the shirts from a wholesaler, I print the design or cut from vinyl, I then press onto the clothing thus providing a service. Never in a million years would I claim to have my own clothing line.

You see these were just my thoughts in general and were not posted to point a finger at any one individual on this forum. As with this forum, unlike the one this thread was started about, I feel comfortable posting"my opinion". Because after all, it is just my opinion.


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## Comin'OutSwingin (Oct 28, 2005)

But that's the thing, though. You could very well be pressing your own shirts, in your own house, with your own heat press, and be a clothing line.

I'm fortunate that my graphic designer has also been screen printing shirts since he was a kid, and grew up in that business, so he prints our samples.

But, I could have just as easily got some plastisol transfers and printed the samples myself. Not 1 retailer would have known the difference.

Lou just happens to do mostly tote bags, and such, be he is in a few stores, and also has a sales rep. But the only reason he doesn't have a clothing line is because he doesn't choose to. He does do t-shirts prints for customers, though which is different from an actual line.



tcrowder said:


> You see these were just my thoughts in general and were not posted to point a finger at any one individual on this forum. As with this forum, unlike the one this thread was started about, I feel comfortable posting"my opinion". Because after all, it is just my opinion.


I got you.

I just wanted to shed a little light on the clothing line part, but please feel free to share.


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## Girlzndollz (Oct 3, 2007)

Speaking of opinions, I grew up learning opinions were just like a**h***s, everyone had one, and the are not to be taken with anything more than a grain of salt. The real consideration would be if your opinion is kind of sounding like fact, then it helps for others to step in and clarify things a bit so no one is mislead. 

Wonderful when you agree, but when you don't, that's okay, too. That is what I like about this forum, for the most part, people generally way cool about letting each person take a turn to let their opinion out. 

Afterall, it's just opinion, not fact. Like today it Tuesday (fact), and it is a beautiful day (my opinion). I don't really need to defend the latter, it's just my point of view. 

Another thing, everyone has been stellar with regards to being nice since I have been here. This is my first and only forum, so I just lucked out, but I feel bad for posters on other forums after hearing some of the comments about the other ones.

Thanks again, Rodney, I don't know how you keep this train on the tracks, but way to go, wonderful job. Hope the family is doing well, I bet the kids are having a great time with the baby.


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## Rodney (Nov 3, 2004)

> It would be nice though, if more people did a little leg work and used a search box prior to asking a question that has been asked multiple times already.
> 
> You would be surprised how much information is sitting right in front of you if you just take the time to open your eyes.


It's also very important to remember a couple of things when you see those "repeated" questions:

1) Not everyone is as knowledgeable about how to use a forum as you or I. Some people are VERY new to navigating a forum, and they may have no clue as to what was posted before, what is "etiquette", where to find it, what keywords to use. When you are just starting out, even knowing what questions to ask is sometimes hard, because you don't know _anything_.

One time during high school I worked at ToysRUS duing the summer. The manager that was supposed to be training was obviously very busy, so he didn't get a chance to show us much on the first day. He basically just walked us through the various areas of the store, but didn't tell us what our job assignments were. He expected us to just know what to do. Now that I'm older and wiser and more confident, I would have just stopped him (or someone) and asked what I was supposed to be doing. But at that time, in that frame of mind, I didn't know if I had missed something he told us, or if I missed a memo, so I didn't know what to do or what questions I was supposed to be asking. 

I'm sure people who are new to this forum and are overloaded with so much information may get caught up in it all and not know exactly what applies to them. I try not to make any assumptions on why someone posts a question that has been posted before...there are a LOT of reasons why they may have done it (they may have already searched and not found an answer, but didn't feel the need to mention that in their post).


2) This industry is constantly changing. When a new question is asked, new people are browsing the forum with new answers and new experiences. Those people may not have had input on the older threads, but they may have great new information to share on the new thread on the same topic. For example, if someone searches the forums now for inkjet transfer paper, they may read the prevailing opinion to be ironall as the "best", but they may miss out on a fewer number of recent threads that mention the jetpro soft stretch paper.

3) For every one person that asks a question that has been asked before, there are hundreds of people that are reading the threads and using the search that are finding the answers and opinions that have been posted here.

It's best to just try to point the person in the right direction if they ask a question that seems common and over repeated to you, or just skim over that question to one that interests you more.

The repeated questions also give newer members a chance to contribute to threads when with the new knowledge that they've learned from reading the forum. It gives them a chance to help someone else.

This forum is also different than many other forums because it is frequented not only by service providers that have an interested in selling printing services to others (heat transfers, dtg, screen printers, etc), but it is in fact visited by people who _are_ starting their own clothing company and who have no desire to make t-shirts for others. They may be starting with just an idea (as I did years ago), or they may have started with some basic equipment. Others may be further along in the process and may already have experience selling wholesale to retail outlets and have a full business plan. We all have to start somewhere


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## fineprint (Jan 22, 2008)

sounds exactly like my boss' point of view!


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## Chani (Jun 18, 2007)

Great post, Rodney!

I know I sometimes forget that I've been using forums and the Internet for years, and that some people may be new and not know as much as me (and I still don't know all that much), especially in basic etiquette.

Some of us do get frustrated with the same questions being asked over and over and over, but we just need to keep the above in mind, and just help those people as best we can, either by answering those questions again, or pointing them to older threads, or even by showing them the search functions and search tags features of this forum.

Thanks, Rodney!


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## Girlzndollz (Oct 3, 2007)

It took me a solid four weeks to figure out how to post a question. I read for two or so months before registering and trying to ask for more clairification on things, which took weeks to figure out. Yup, stumbling in the dark, but lots and lots of very nice people here offered a gentle hand up, and in return, with my limited knowledge, I don't mind answering those more basic questions, either by way of pointing to a thread I read or giving the basics of how to go from question one and try to get rolling. Once you get it, it's much easier to find the info you are looking for. Great post, Rodney, guess that's how you keep this train on it's tracks!!


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## KimB (Dec 11, 2007)

When I found this site there were several others that I was browsing. It didnt take long to see were the good folks hang out, and the most helpful ones. In my opinion theres no need to visit any other sites besides this one. Theres no drama and Rodney comes across as a stand up guy who is willing to help.


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## marlo45 (Oct 4, 2007)

Rodney said:


> The repeated questions also give newer members a chance to contribute to threads when with the new knowledge that they've learned from reading the forum. It gives them a chance to help someone else.


...and oh how much of a wonderful feeling it is when a novice like me can solve another newbie's problem(s).

Seriously, after gaining some indispensable knowledge free of charge, it makes us all feel obligated to giving back, and without newbie questions, we may not have the opportunity to share what we have learnt here.


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