# DTG Hack?



## Toms Tees (Oct 2, 2006)

I've read a couple of forum posts concerning the attempt to hack an epson printer into a DTG printer...While I find this most intriguing....( I do love a good hack.) I have a question that goes down a different line of thinking... The most obvious problem is that you have to fabricate a tractor mechanism to move either the shirt or the printer. 

My question is....can you use sublimation heat transfer paper instead? 

Could you just print the stock epson pigment ink onto the sublimation transfer paper, and transfer to a cotton shirt.? And if so, could you print a seperate white one for the undercoat for black shirts?


----------



## Rodney (Nov 3, 2004)

> Could you just print the stock epson pigment ink onto the sublimation transfer paper, and transfer to a cotton shirt.?


I may not be understanding your question correctly, but isn't this what regular inkjet transfer printing is? Printing using an epson, onto transfer paper, and then pressing it on a cotton t-shirt?



> And if so, could you print a seperate white one for the undercoat for black shirts?


I didn't think it was possible for the printers to print white ink?


----------



## Toms Tees (Oct 2, 2006)

Well, my understanding of ink jet paper is that there is a wax-like layer that melts ontop of the ink and fibers. Whereas, sublimation paper just releases the ink into a gaseous state into the fibers. 

I'm looking for a way to print the ink to one substrate then transfer (just the ink) to the shirt. without the wax coating.


----------



## Toms Tees (Oct 2, 2006)

also, you can purchase the white pigment ink from several DTG companies...


----------



## Rodney (Nov 3, 2004)

> Well, my understanding of ink jet paper is that there is a wax-like layer that melts ontop of the ink and fibers. Whereas, sublimation paper just releases the ink into a gaseous state into the fibers.


Ahhh, gotcha. Don't you need a polyester based material to use sublimation though so the ink can bond with the fibers? From what I understand, the ink won't bond to 100% cotton (and not as well to 50/50 shirts).



> I'm looking for a way to print the ink to one substrate then transfer (just the ink) to the shirt. without the wax coating.


From how Lou has described the ironall/miracool transfer paper, it seems to act as you've described. No waxy coating, and just the design left on the shirt. Of course it only works for whites and lights though.




> also, you can purchase the white pigment ink from several DTG companies...


Can that white ink be used on any epson printer, or would you need a hacked epson to get the white ink to print?


----------



## TahoeTomahawk (Apr 12, 2006)

I've read several "How to hack an Epson into a DTG" threads on the internet.
The best post was by Don from SWF East here:
http://www.inkjetgarmentprinters.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1907&start=180
Navigate to page 10.


----------



## Toms Tees (Oct 2, 2006)

Yea, I read most of those also. The thing I found really interesting was that one of the members cut a piece of cotton and glued it to paper and ran it through a epson printer. and the stock pigment ink was heat set and permenant. I'm guessing because the ink is plastic based. But it got me to thinking maybe were all making this too hard... If the stock epson ink is working this well without additional polymers. then the problem would only be to get the ink to the shirt and heatset!...just my 2cents.


----------



## TahoeTomahawk (Apr 12, 2006)

Yea, it is interesting. I wonder if you could buy that ink in bulk.
Also, I think you'd have similar problems that most DTG machines on the market face. White ink. A standard Epson printer doesn't print white correct?


----------



## Toms Tees (Oct 2, 2006)

You can get the white ink here 
and i'm sure with a little looking you could find other manufacturers. But my idea was to pick up a cheap c88 and fill all bottles with the white ink and print my art first in greyscale...then print my regular art on top....just working out the registration bugs.


----------



## Toms Tees (Oct 2, 2006)

sorry printed the wrong link for white ink on last post. here it is.


----------



## Rodney (Nov 3, 2004)

Toms Tees said:


> You can get the white ink here
> and i'm sure with a little looking you could find other manufacturers. But my idea was to pick up a cheap c88 and fill all bottles with the white ink and print my art first in greyscale...then print my regular art on top....just working out the registration bugs.


Looks like the only white ink bottles they sell are for the fast-t jet machines:
http://screenprinters.net/product_group.php?gid=fastinktextile

But I guess if you just replaced the regular cyan/black/etc inks with all white inks, it might trick the printer into thinking you're printing with the right colors.

Sounds like an interesting test 

I don't know if the inks are compatible with the c88 though. From the chart they listed, it doesn't look like it is.


----------



## TahoeTomahawk (Apr 12, 2006)

If you have to resort to using DTG white ink, then you'll need the pre-treatment also.


----------



## lennykuhn (Apr 18, 2007)

I have been experimenting with just the ideas you described. First there is a transfer paper that will transfer sublimation ink to cotton it comes from the company Forever. Secondly, I have been researching the idea of coming up with a precoat solution using titanium dioxide to pretreat the black cotton T-shirt. Now it looks like that solution is available from the DTG folks. As for laying down the white base coat I figured that I could use my screen printing knowledge and create a screen from the image to apply the white basecoat, heat cure and then using the normal white only transfer paper I would lay the heat transfer image on top of the pre screened white mask. I also thought about the idea of using the printer filled with white ink only I would need to purchase a bulk ink kit to test my theory and I have not figured which printer I could use to maximise my investment. I also thought about using the normal white only transfer paper because it leaves a soft hand and see if I could get iti to come together with my pretreatment coating. I think it would be a safe investment to purchase an epson printer that is used in the DTG printers and buy the ink that the DTG printer uses and fit it with the bulk ink system. This way I would know that the ink would be compatable with the print head in the DTG printer because it's identical. This would in affect give you exactly all the capabilities that you would be spending $17000.00 for but without the large price tag. What do you think? I know you are going to say I need to purchase the RIP software from one of the DTG companies but I am not sure about that right now. At any rate these are a few options to work around the large investment in a DTG printer.


----------



## TahoeTomahawk (Apr 12, 2006)

Lenny, have you actually tried this yet or is it still an idea?
The problem I see with this is that it would be very difficult to line up the white underbase from a screen with the transfer paper, and even if you could, the white ink resolution from the screen wouldn't match the color ink resolution from the printer. If you're able to overcome some of these problems, the best you might be able to print is vector type of artwork.
If you're able to, watch a DTG printer print the white underbase of an image, it's very subtle in certain parts. I just don't see this being reproduced very well by hand.


----------



## csquared (Sep 8, 2006)

lenny I am not sure how the chemistry of the DuPont white would react with the standard epson ink and you will need at the very least three channels of white to limit the number of white passes you have to do.


----------



## DAGuide (Oct 2, 2006)

I think the bigger issue is the assumption that the DTG ink is going to react in a similar fashion of sublimation ink under pressure / heat of the press and release completely from the paper. I have serious doubts about whether it is possible to print DTG ink (which I believe has a higher visocity than sublimation ink) on a piece of paper, getting the ink to dry (i.e. not pool and the colors mix up) and then release all the ink so you get accurate ink reproduction. Would be nice one day if that happens, but I am not holding my breath. Watch the price of these DTG machines drop in the near future.


----------



## lennykuhn (Apr 18, 2007)

Actually I did try this and the results were not that bad. I thought that the object of the game was to get the transfer to print on a white substrate instead of a black one. I laid down a pass of white opaque ink on the black T-Shirt and then cured the ink. I then applied the normal transfer image on top of that white base. The transfer copied to the shirt and looked almost as good as it did when it was printed on a white T-shirt. That was enough to convince me to refine the process because the ink was not as soft as the normal transfer and it had some imperfections in it. I thought that if I actually screened the ink it would lay down better and feel softer. Then I thought that if I were to spray the white on (to simulate the action of the printer it would be even softer (I have not tried that yet) another thought was to take another transfer sheet and apply only white using a transparent background and trying to print the image with only white ink ( using the bulk system ink bottles all filled with white ink) so the printer would be fooled into thinking it was printing the image using all the colors insted of only white. I have not tried that yet. I would apply this over the pretreated black T-shirt. As for the alignment I don't believe it would be that big of an issue. I would cut both images out using my Summa D60 SE. Once the white coat is down the real image could be placed directly on to without a problem. To sum it all up I hope I am not to far off track. My logic was that the transfer needs only to be applied to a white underbase in order for the translucent printer ink to have a white refelective color shining through to make it seem opaque. I never considered the issue with the different types of ink because I saw that applying the transfer directly over the white area I applied to the black shirt worked. I thougt at that point all I would need to do was to refine the process to make the surface softer. If you have any ideas on proceeding from this point let me know. I do not have any money as it is and the only reason I am trying to make this work is to make enough money to be able to earn enough money to change carreers. I hate my day job! Thanks, Lenny


----------



## DAGuide (Oct 2, 2006)

Sorry, but I first thought that you wanted to use DTG ink for both the white and CMYK. 

If you are just trying to use light transfer paper on to a white base on a dark shirt, it seems like a lot of work and extra time compared to just doing a print-cut application with dark transfer paper since you are planning to use a cutter to cut the design out. Not to mention that you have the issue of what the wash fastness will be since you are trying to stick the polymer on the transfer paper to the white ink and still have the hand of a transfer.

Maybe I am missing something, but what would be the benefit of this?


----------



## zhenjie (Aug 27, 2006)

For the cost of an entry level DTG you could just get yourself a mid-level Print/Cutter to do what you want to do with dark shirts. Far easier too then putting a transfer ontop of White Ink. The white ink printing alone is so troublesome!


----------



## lennykuhn (Apr 18, 2007)

The problem with the DARK transfers is that I have tried all the best brands and they do not produce professional results. They all end up looking like stickers that were printed and stuck on the shirt. On the other hand, The white transfers on white shirts do look and feel professional enough to try and sell. No one can convince me that there is a dark transfer paper available today that will equal the quality of a screen printed shirt. I have spent hundreds of dollars confiming this fact. I blame the problem on the garment color. I have seen all the videos on the DGT printers and they all begin with the white basecoat already on the t-shirt. I have wondered why they do not show the entire process from start to finish. That tells me that the underbase requires special handling or prcesses prior to the actual image being applied to the shirt and if thats the case then the solution would apply to printing on dark shirts in general. 
The print and cut aspect of this issue is not the problem. I want to produce normal looking (not plastic or vinyl ) results that compare to screen printing results and there is no other method to make that happen at this point in time.


----------



## DAGuide (Oct 2, 2006)

Lenny,

I think we understand what you are talking about. Here is where some of us (or maybe just me) are having trouble understanding. The additional amount of time it is going to take you to screen the white ink, cut the transfer and register it up in your method is going to take X amount of time. Your time is one of the most valuable resource. How many shirts does it take before your labor cost (i.e. time) is going to outweigh the cost of just buying a DTG and not having to worry about this? I have seen first-hand people trying to register two designs in several different applications when I was doing consulting for Laser Targeting Systems. It is a very tedious task and the failure rate is much higher than than you probably think. This was done by some of the most cutting edge companies in the industry. 

I don't want to discourage you, but also want you to understand that your expectation of saving a lot of upfront investment money might not be worth it in the long run. Just my opinion. If you decide to go forward, I would love to see a step-by-step video and information about the total time it takes to produce one garment. Best wishes.


----------



## DAGuide (Oct 2, 2006)

Some to consider if you want to save some time would be to screen a white base down on all of your shirts at once in the same design. Then, make all of your shirts have the same design. Otherwise, you have to burn a new screen for the white ink everytime you have a different white underbase design.


----------



## mystysue (Aug 27, 2006)

The oki data dye sub system has the option of having a whole seperate printer with white toner and lays down a layer of white that you then print on top of.. Now i have this system.. My main problem is having the time to tweak it to use.. Like any white ink product there is a pretreat.. that we use.. .. Ive used the white toner.. and regular toner on hard substrates.. but have not had time to fiddle with the t-shirt production on this..


----------



## lennykuhn (Apr 18, 2007)

Can you be more specific? I am really interested in finding one of these machines with the white opaque ink. Also can you tell me more about the pretreatment procedures and where you purchase the materials. I have sort of taken this on as a project and I will make the time it takes to see if the idea worksw.

Thanks, 

Lenny


----------

