# Why not leave it to the Experts?



## Londoncrystal (Oct 14, 2009)

Why not leave it to the Experts? 
Hi All: I think I am going to open my self up to a bit of critique here, but there is no offence intended: Just would like feedback.

We have been in the “Hotfix” business for over 12 years now & just specialize in this. Our background is in the textile industry covering the last 25 years, so we know our trade.
We have worked with the same Hotfix rhinestone company for the last 7 years & I have personally spent a lot of time in the factories in china. We buy our rhinestones direct from the manufacturer in Korea. We ensure the welfare of the production team in china & do not outsource.We have a great dedicated team, from our designers here in the UK to the production girls in the factory in china.

Why do people think that spending all money this upfront money on cutters/software & consumables is viable, when at the end of the day the finished transfers (in my opinion) are rather shoddy & are bringing the Rhinestone business down a peg or two.
I understand that in print shops there is a need to offer rhinestone embellishment, but why not leave it to the experts:

We are specialists; we have over 3000 different available components to choose from in our work & offer clients excellent delivery times & very competive pricing structures. We know which transfer papers to use for specific fabric types; we test our components with ISO accredited labs on a monthly basis. We are investing in our people, clients & our product.

Can somebody enlighten me as to the costs & time involved in creating a design for example: with 1480 crystal in 3 different sizes for a transfer dimension of 53cm x 14cm that costs me £1.08/$1.7 shipped, in Korean crystal, just out of interest? 
200 units delivered to me in the UK with-in 3 days. Image attached.
http://i639.photobucket.com/albums/uu119/londoncrystal/Exampledesign.jpg

Don’t mean to sound to bitter or twisted, just curious.


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## MsHutch (Jul 19, 2008)

I thought this was supposed to be a forum where members help other members. How does your post do that exactly?

"Don't mean to sound bitter or twisted, just curious."


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## zeusprinting (Jun 21, 2009)

12 years ago when you started there was someone out there asking that same question about you. You have to start somewhere.

I recommend you put some energy into showing people the advantages of using your experience and connections to source hotfix materials to enhance their business. People often choose to do things themselves when they don't see, or know about, an alternative.


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## veedub3 (Mar 29, 2007)

First i would like to no who said that you are an expert? If you are such a professional why are you here on this forum? If your product is far better than what we could ever hope to produce then it would speak for itself you would not have to come here and tell us how good you are.

I am also confused... you said that you get your rhinestones from the manufacturer in Korea and that you oversea the production in China. You do no that those are two different places right? Are you saying you buy your stones in Korea then ship them to China?....what a crock! If you are dealing with Chinese factories you are producing a bunch of garbage like that ugly arse motif you posted.

You are so full of it! Crawl back under that rock!


Katrina


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## proworlded (Oct 3, 2006)

It is quite obvious to me that this is a company that is just trying to sell their products. It is not unusual for the manufacturers in China to use Korean rhinestones because of the higher quality. Although,I think he is in the wrong forum


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## veedub3 (Mar 29, 2007)

I have been all through Aisa on the hunt for goods and it is my experience that if you can get the stones from Korea, you can have the motifs made there as well and guess what...it is cheaper.

Factories in China will tell you that they also have a factory in Korea and 99% of the time that is not the case. They say that so you can think that the stones are actually Korean when in fact they are China made Korean stones hence the grading like A, AA, AAA. 

There would be no need to get stones from Korea then ship to a China factory for production. This dude is bogus!!!

Katrina


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## Naga (Mar 11, 2008)

I would not trust someone, who does not even bother to read the forum rules.

Self promotion is not allowed according to the rules.


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## taricp35 (Dec 10, 2008)

Londoncrystal said:


> Why not leave it to the Experts?
> Hi All: I think I am going to open my self up to a bit of critique here, but there is no offence intended: Just would like feedback.
> 
> We have been in the “Hotfix” business for over 12 years now & just specialize in this. Our background is in the textile industry covering the last 25 years, so we know our trade.
> We have worked with the same Hotfix rhinestone company for the last 7 years & I have personally spent a lot of time in the factories in china. We buy our rhinestones direct from the manufacturer in Korea. We ensure the welfare of the production team in china & do not outsource.We have a great dedicated team, from our designers here in the UK to the production girls in the factory in china.


If this is really true then you should no that Korea and China are different. You stated that you get your rhinestones from Korea...how do yo get them to the factory in China? Why send them to a factory in China for production instead of having them shipped to your company where you can make the rhinestones.
I have had motifs made in China and honestly mine are better.




> Why do people think that spending all money this upfront money on cutters/software & consumables is viable, when at the end of the day the finished transfers (in my opinion) are rather shoddy & are bringing the Rhinestone business down a peg or two.





> I understand that in print shops there is a need to offer rhinestone embellishment, but why not leave it to the experts:
> We are specialists; we have over 3000 different available components to choose from in our work & offer clients excellent delivery times & very competive pricing structures. We know which transfer papers to use for specific fabric types; we test our components with ISO accredited labs on a monthly basis. We are investing in our people, clients & our product.


 If you are such an expert why are you having the motifs made in China? Why are you not making them yourself since you have over 3000 different componets to choose from?




> Can somebody enlighten me as to the costs & time involved in creating a design for example: with 1480 crystal in 3 different sizes for a transfer dimension of 53cm x 14cm that costs me £1.08/$1.7 shipped, in Korean crystal, just out of interest?





> 200 units delivered to me in the UK with-in 3 days. Image attached.
> http://i639.photobucket.com/albums/uu119/londoncrystal/Exampledesign.jpg
> 
> Don’t mean to sound to bitter or twisted, just curious.


First of all the design you posted is booty and no one would even order that old lady crap. But by chance someone did I could make it and it would look better.

I would have to agree that he is just trying to sell his items. 

Tari


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## zeusprinting (Jun 21, 2009)

I don't agree that he is just trying to sell his goods. If he is, that is a pretty poor way of marketing.

I believe he is scared and frustrated that his long-time business model is falling apart. As technology improvements are made in the industry the required equipment has been made accessible to more people. That opens up the market for competition. Competition means that prices will go down, thus taking money out of his pocket.

Businesses live and die through innovation. If you are putting out the same stuff you were 10 years ago, you won't be doing it long. Embrace change. It is the only constant in this world.


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## Londoncrystal (Oct 14, 2009)

HI All & thanks for your comments!

I expected a little critique as I mentioned but not as vitriolic as some of the posts:

Firstly let me address the issues as they have arisen:

I am not trying to sell my goods or promote our company that was not the purpose of this post.

When we first started buying transfers, we did infact buy form Korean manufacturers of transfers: I spent a lot of time with these companies learning the ropes & sourcing the materials. 
As the Chinese economy opened up fully & the Korean market suffered from the inflationary effects of success (higher labour costs, etc) we had the opptounity to visit & meet with a number of Chinese companies through trade events.

We spent a lot of time actively searching for people who we could trust & work with. 
As a number of people have pointed out, it is sometimes the case that Chinese manufacturers/products can leave something to be desired, but look at the clothes/shoes/household products you are using, many of these items are made in china…
are they all of such poor quality?

We buy the majority of our products in Korea & fly them out to china by pigeon…..

How do you think we get them there!!!! We, through long term relationships buy at comparatively low rates at regular times & ship them to china, once again very competitively…

We know exactly where our products are made & how they are made…we know the content of the products & the products are tested to confirm this.

As to the design that I posted. You would have to take that up with a well European Fashion Company…But if you have to keep your finger on the pulse of fashion, then you would be aware of current trends & storyboards for the coming seasons…it looks great in the correct context.

I sincerely look forward to your further comments…but maybe more in answer to my original question.

PS: I would be very happy to answer & help with any questions people have on a more “on topic” issue with rhinestones & there uses etc, rather than reading posts from people who should know better than to poor derision on a serious question.


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## midwaste (Apr 8, 2008)

While I tend to agree with most of the comments, I'll give you a very good reason why many shops are adding hotfix to their arsenals:
I don't necessarily want 200 of YOUR designs that take 2 weeks (at best) to arrive. I want 10, 30, 50, 100 of my customer's logo/company/design, and I want to produce them on my schedule.


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## lizziemaxine (Nov 14, 2007)

midwaste said:


> While I tend to agree with most of the comments, I'll give you a very good reason why many shops are adding hotfix to their arsenals:
> I don't necessarily want 200 of YOUR designs that take 2 weeks (at best) to arrive. I want 10, 30, 50, 100 of my customer's logo/company/design, and I want to produce them on my schedule.


My sentiments exactly. I want to produce the amount I need on my schedule. If I only need one then I don't want to have to buy 12 or more to get that one.


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## Londoncrystal (Oct 14, 2009)

lizziemaxine said:


> My sentiments exactly. I want to produce the amount I need on my schedule. If I only need one then I don't want to have to buy 12 or more to get that one.


Thank you: This is exactly the kind of "sensible" answer i was trying to get, a debate on this topic.....
But can these systems justify the costs involved. What are the Maths?


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## PrintsCharming (Jan 21, 2009)

I am from the US. I run a screen printing business. I have nothing to do with rhinestones, but it's all the same.

*I wont leave it to the experts because,*

I am important. My work is important. And my business is important.


"Small business is the foundation of our economy. Small business creates jobs. Small business creates local economy. Local economy effects national economy and so on. You and your business are part of our economic engine. Remember, all great the businesses of today had to start somewhere. All the blue chips began on a drawing board, the back of a napkin, in somebody's garage. Some small businesses will turn into the next Dell or American Apparel. Be the foundation of something bigger." _Tim Andrew_


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## midwaste (Apr 8, 2008)

Londoncrystal said:


> Thank you: This is exactly the kind of "sensible" answer i was trying to get, a debate on this topic.....
> But can these systems justify the costs involved. What are the Maths?


A customer who insists on rhinestone designs for custom work is either going to accept the costs or choose a different style of garment.
Comparing low quantity custom costs to high-quantity stock designs is apples to oranges.


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## taricp35 (Dec 10, 2008)

> Firstly let me address the issues as they have arisen:
> I am not trying to sell my goods or promote our company that was not the purpose of this post.


what is the purpose of the post? You make a ridiculous post stating that we should leave it to you as you are a professional and that we are taking the rhinestone industry down a notch. What kind of comments were you expecting from a statement such as this? Especially since you are not even producing your own motifs you are outsourcing which many here do as well.




> it is sometimes the case that Chinese manufacturers/products can leave something to be desired, but look at the clothes/shoes/household products you are using, many of these items are made in china.





> are they all of such poor quality?


Yes its that bad!




> We buy the majority of our products in Korea & fly them out to china by pigeon.





> How do you think we get them there!!!! We, through long term relationships buy at comparatively low rates at regular times & ship them to china, once again very competitively. We know exactly where our products are made & how they are made…we know the content of the products & the products are tested to confirm this.



 You have been in business for many years as you stated then surely you would no that buying the rhinestones in Korea and having the motifs produced in Korea today would be cheaper than having them produced in China. Heck even Taiwan or Shanghai would be even better and cheaper. And for you to actually think a motif made in China is of excellent quality and materials is laughable.




> As to the design that I posted. You would have to take that up with a well European Fashion Company…But if you have to keep your finger on the pulse of fashion, then you would be aware of current trends & storyboards for the coming seasons…it looks great in the correct context.


Sorry dude that design is just booty and you obviously thought highly of it otherwise you would not have posted it as an example. 




> What are the Maths?


 Just curious why do you care what it cost us??? You are a professional that has been in this business for many years. What it cost us should be of no concern to you. How is that going to help you anyway?




> I sincerely look forward to your further comments…but maybe more in answer to my original question.


For one you didn't ask a question in your original post you just socked us in the gut then expected us to be ok with it. And as far as the part about how how much it would cost us to make a similar design was just you being facetious.


Tari


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## Optiq (Oct 13, 2009)

People think it's better to go cheaper or try doing it their self to save money. It sounds to me like you need to start emphasizing on your quality and targeting a crowd who looks for quality. People try to start small and build their way up to dealing with people like you because that's what all the grown ups in their life have told them over the years so they think that's how you do it. It takes a few years of seeing how crappy stiff only damages their credibility making it impossible to ever get to the level where they can deal with you, at least according to their business model. Everybody's looking to get something for nothing so they're all trying to take short cuts, you just have to target a new clientele.


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## daffynmark (May 17, 2009)

Here is my take on the "Leave it to the Experts"...maybe your choice of words could have been better. Whether you intended to come across as arrogant or not, that's what you did. 

Let me ask you this: what makes you an expert on _*MY* _customers?

I am the expert on my customers. I am a graphic designer by trade. I do not and will not sell the same design someone else does. Not because it's a bad design but because it is not unique and my customers want unique. That's why they come to me. 

I do have competition in our small town of 3,500 people. What sets me apart from the competition? Uniqueness, I do my own designs, the competition gets hers from another shop 100 miles away. Those pieces are stock designs that anyone across the country can sell.

Every design I create is 100% unique and custom. And, as stated previously, I only want 10, 20, 30 or so of one design and that design is then retired. That's what my customers want. That's what I give them. 

So, to answer your question, I am the expert on my customers and my business. I _*AM*_ leaving it to the experts.


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## DAGuide (Oct 2, 2006)

Another key thing missing from the posts above is what equipment are the non-experts using to create their own rhinestone designs. Most of them are using vinyl cutters or engravers with specialty software that allows to me to design in a fairly easy method. The vinyl cutters and engravers also provide the non-experts with the ability to provide other products to their customers without having to outsource them to experts in other fields. Vinyl cutters can be used to create signs, window decals, heat applied vinyl designs / letters / numbers and more. Engravers can make signs, plaques and other decorative items. These are all items that you are not going to provide to them.

I am sure that you are well aware of the cost of shipping and have probably done a very good job minimizing these costs based on your quantities you are ordering. The target market your business is focused on is probably the large fashion houses based on one of your other replies. For most of the garment decorators in the U.S., they are producing custom products at significantly smaller quantities. Most customers in the U.S. want to have their own unique garments or just purchase a limited quantity (well below 100 the majority of the time). So the cost of shipping lower quantities will dramatically eat away at the profits. There are some very large companies like your's in the United States (i.e. ZBSL Designs in Miami, FL comes to mind) and when appropriate, garment decorators will use their services. However, there might be times when it ecomes more beneficial (i.e. more profitable, faster turn-around time needed,...) to do the job in-house. As long as the garment decorator understands the options available and make the decision that provides a quality product in a profitable method, then they are doing it the correct - whether they are an expert or not.

Thus, it becomes important for you to understand the differences in equipment and markets before you will fully understand why some garment decorators have done their homework and determined that having the ability to make short-run custom rhinestone designs in-house is in the best interest of their business model. Just like in any other business, there is not one single solution for every business.

Best wishes with your business,

Mark


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## Rodney (Nov 3, 2004)

Anthony has clarified what he meant in his original post, there's no need to continue to attack him for his question.

If you have an answer to his question (if I may paraphrase: why invest on doing a new technology in house instead of outsourcing to someone that is already setup to handle it), feel free to share 

It would be interesting to see the costs/time involved in doing an order of 200 yourself instead of outsourcing it to someone that has the mass order equipment.

(it's similar to the "why outsource to screen printers" question instead of just investing in printing equipment for your own clothing line)


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## BlingItOn (May 29, 2008)

For me, the reason I don't have my designs made by "the experts" is plain and simple. When I get that email from the Mom who wants a special Birthday Girl shirt for her daughter's special day and her favorite color is yellow but the design I sell is shown in clear. I have one of two ways that I can answer that email. Either I can tell her that "Sorry I only offer that design in the color shown" because my designs are pre-made by "the experts" or I can say "I can make that design in any color you wish" because I'm the one making the design. 

I take pride in what I do and I am happy to be able to personalize and change colors when a customer wants something unique and this is why I don't purchase my designs from "the experts".


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## heattransfers (Aug 5, 2009)

as i know that some korean rhinestone manufacturers have setted up factory in China. Same technology but much lower labour cost!


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## tla1217 (Jun 21, 2009)

Hi Anthony,

For me and for now, I do it because I thoroughly enjoy the creation process. I live in Michigan and lost my job back in December. It is nearly impossible to find a job here so, I created one for myself. Having no experience what so ever and after several months of research, help from T-shirt forums and lots of practice, I just had my first home Rhinestone T-Shirt Party. Only 5 people showed up and I still managed to sell $250 in shirts. While at the party, I picked up an entire company and will be doing their logo's. I couldn't be happier. If it does get to be more than I can handle by myself, then and only then will I farm out the work. Simply because I love doing it and I am proud of the results. 

I hope this has helped with your question. Best Wishes Anthony!

Terry
Rhinestone Wishes


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## sjidohair (Apr 9, 2008)

I agree with Terry, I too, Make Transfers, for myself and my Customers, 
Why instead of getting them for 35 cents each overseas,, where I buy my Rhinestones,,
becuase I can control the Quality, the Quanity that i need on hand, and the color, 
As a small Business, it also lets me use the Capital on others parts of my Business, as well, instead of having 200 Transfers on hand, I can have 10.
This might not work for all, but this is why i do it Anthony.
I get to work with great desingers once in a while but not all the time , When I work for them it is large Quanity, but when i work for myself it is small quanities,,
I too Love the design aspect,, what do I do to relax,, I design, in Rhinestones, and nothing brings a smile to my face more than a Rhinestone design done and on a Garment that I have made,,
MMM


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## CyberSultan (Aug 25, 2008)

sjidohair said:


> I agree with Terry, I too, Make Transfers, for myself and my Customers,
> Why instead of getting them for 35 cents each overseas,, where I buy my Rhinestones,,
> becuase I can control the Quality, the Quanity that i need on hand, and the color,
> As a small Business, it also lets me use the Capital on others parts of my Business, as well, instead of having 200 Transfers on hand, I can have 10.
> ...


I'm with MMM. I love to do my own designs for my customers and love the positive feeback I get for my own work. I also have the ability to make little modifications on the fly if they want something a little different with the same design.

Also, I'm not only in the rhinestone business, but I do vinyl (car graphics, decals, banners) and apparel (vinyl and plastisol) as well - all using the same cutter and heat press equipment. So the math really adds up there because my equipment is shared.


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## stuffnthingz (Oct 1, 2007)

I believe that there are two audiences to answer the OPs questions and on this forum many folks are custom designers who make to order. I hand make all of my designs and my customers are happy to pay my price for them. My involvement with the whole process start to finish is therapeutic and very satisfying. I plan to stay small and have no intent of buying 200 of anything premade.

It would be interesting to hear from the larger folks who do order or produce in those quantities.


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