# do you do your own seo or hire?



## ruch1v (Jun 9, 2008)

*hi guys, i have always planned to hire somebody to do my optomising for me, but now that i have bought all my equipment, paid for my site to be made etc, the costs of this tshirt business are alot more expensive than i originally thought, and the fact that it still might not work out is scaring me, so i am wanting to keep costs down, im wondering whether to do my own SEO or hire (note, i have absolutely no idea how to do it, so i would have to learn) on the one side i'm thinking if i do my own it costs me nothing, therefore saving money, whereas if i hire someone, they will do a better job which could land me sales, therefore pay for itself and then some.. so i'm a little puzzled about what to do

so basically 2 questions i'm asking here are

1. do you do your own seo or hire somebody?

and 

2. which one do you think i should go with?

thanks*


----------



## purplepills (Apr 19, 2009)

I can help here a little bit because this is a big corner of what we do.

For one, there is a great deal of things you can do on the front end of things to strengthen your SEO that are basically free (or should be considered when getting you site designed).

Your designer should first have good knowledge of the W3C standards as there are tremendous benefits to having semantically correct mark-up. SO your site should be valid XHTML.

Also be sure to use meaningful links, titles and meta tags (your designer should be familiar with that).

Then there is the actual submittal of the site to the search engines, dont wait to be crawled.

Setup link exchanges or have people linking to you. A good way to do this is setup a companion blog or link to social network sites.

These are some of the freebie things that will greatly increase your visibility without gettig off into the adwords and buying keywords game. When you get to that level, to be honest it would be better to let a pro set you up. You can easily end up throwing cash away on words that are not yielding any results (I have seen it). ALso be sure to setup google analytics on your site, this is free and gives you tons of information that can help you track where you should take your SEO. This brings up a good point as well. A successful SEO campaign requires analysis and research be sure to research and watch trends before you just jump into purchasing keywords.

This is just skimming the top, SEO goes very deep. I plan to be sticking around here for a while as I learn about the garment printing industry. SO if anyone has SEO, web or programming questions feel free to hit me up.


----------



## Brian-R (Apr 21, 2008)

I hired it out. I know nothing and would have just spun my wheels for months trying to figure it out.
It is nice to just turn it over to them and I can focus on other aspects of my business.

Good Luck.

Brian


----------



## purplepills (Apr 19, 2009)

Hey Brian
I would not totally hire out, or if you did I would still arm yourself with some knowledge. Because you can still spin your wheels if you do not know the basics. The above things I noted often go un-noticed but are just as important as the actual keyword buys. When we build sites for folks we like to educate them on what we are doing and the benefits. If your site is built wrong you will be just throwing money in the air and hoping it falls when you want it. It is worth a shot to get acquainted with SEO.


----------



## majesticmind (Sep 1, 2007)

First you should never have had the site built by one place and then try to optimize it with another place. You do it at one time. Everything on the site that you see and everything that you dont see is part of it. It is all linked together. I have a feeling your going to run up a huge bill hiring someone to optimize a site that someone else biult. 

For example, we are in the niagara area. If you google

niagara screen printed t shirts

We come up first. We actually come up twice on the first page. We didnt pay for that. I built that myself for the cost of my time. We beat out printers in this area that have sites up for over decade. The printers under us in the results have paid an SEO for their standing.

Any city in this area that googles screen printing shirts and the name of their city gets us first almost everytime.Even more often than some of the companies that are paying through sponsored ads. A bit of trial and error. Google analytics is free. and it is invaluable.

But I also only slept about 3 hours a night for the first year we were in business.

The only thing we hire out is an accountant.


----------



## Rodney (Nov 3, 2004)

> *im wondering whether to do my own SEO or hire (note, i have absolutely no idea how to do it, so i would have to learn)*


You can do it yourself if you want to take the time to learn.

There's a lot of good info out there, and even if you start to learn and decide it's not for you, at least you'll be educated about what to ask for and what to look for if you hire someone to do it for you.

Start your research here: seo related topics at T-Shirt Forums

Lots of great basic tips have been posted that should get you started with the first things you can do on your own.



> I have a feeling your going to run up a huge bill hiring someone to optimize a site that someone else biult.


This is not necessarily true. It's not very complicated at all to do the basic SEO necessary.

Even doing the basics can get you going in the right direction.

It doesn't matter who created the site, almost anybody can come in and make the changes necessary to make sure the site is search engine friendly.


----------



## purplepills (Apr 19, 2009)

I think Majestic may have been referring to the actual coding of the site when he speaks of optimizing. Like I pointed out. Google and the like gives higher weight to the semantically correct sites. So if another developer developed the site with total disregard to standards. Then yes it can get expensive as you try to shape things up. But it also comes down to content and keyword density. But Rodney is right when he say the basics are not hard to grasp and can go a long way with understanding your developer and relaying your needs to them. So ultimately you will save cash by knowing what the basics are.


----------



## Rodney (Nov 3, 2004)

> . Google and the like gives higher weight to the semantically correct sites. So if another developer developed the site with total disregard to standards


Just my opinion based on my experience, but I don't think the weight of this is very much at all.

The actual content of the page and who's linking to you have way more to do with semantically correct sites. And if your site never "validated", you can still rank very high for competitive terms.

I know I've read the same thing about having sites that validate and that are semantically correct, but for the average business owner/webmaster, I don't think it's necessary or worth spending extra time/money for.

If you can do it right from the beginning, it's definitely a good idea to. But if your site loads fine in the popular browsers and you're just trying to get some basic SEO done, then I think you don't have to focus too much time on a semantically correct site that validates.

Again, that's just my personal opinion based on my own years of experience.


----------



## purplepills (Apr 19, 2009)

See the semantics has everything to do with your content. ANd yes you can come up strong with a totally un-valid site. but you are fight an uphill battle for no reason. Alt text, titles, labels, id/names. All those are semantics of the web and aide in your ranking and are free to do. Believe me a semantically proper site is a large chunk of the pie and it is the free chunk.

But it is a common misconcpetion that is has very little weight.

Just to add valid and standards are at times different. As validators do not take into account some actions developers may take to ensure a smooth operating website. PLus there are lesser doctypes you can target to get validation and still make your site suffer on the SEO side of things. I gets deep, but it pays to know some of the ins and outs.


----------



## Reppin (Apr 3, 2009)

Really seo is not rocket science, it just takes time and understanding. Both time to do and time to see results.


----------



## majesticmind (Sep 1, 2007)

Its kind of funny that sometimes I run the validation tools of the validation websites on there own code and it comes up with errors. 

Rodney all I am saying with running up a huge bill, is that some "SEO" out there are not really good, charge too much, make guarantees that they can get you too the top and they cant. And use excuses that because someone else biult the site it is flawed and need all kinds of work. Just a money grab. Just saying be careful who you choose to do work for you. Not everybody is on the up and up.

There are errors on all my pages in one place or another and yet I come up first for the browser keywords that I want to come up first for.

It is a good thing to learn about. You never know maybe you can catch on quick and make a profit from your abilities. Remember our brains are the same size. If I can learn it, so can you.


----------



## purplepills (Apr 19, 2009)

Also just to add, if you are not analyzing your keywords (google analytics, adwords or mint) to see what users are searching for or how they are finding you, then again you may be spinning your wheels. It is all about maximizing your efforts. If you typed in silk screen los angeles cal, but your users are typing in tshirts inglewood, then you are missing your target. Just because you come up for what you imagine people are searching by based on a guesstimate does make your SEO successful.


----------



## Brian-R (Apr 21, 2008)

purplepills said:


> Hey Brian
> I would not totally hire out, or if you did I would still arm yourself with some knowledge. .


I appreciate your input, and I understand what you are saying and agree to a point. I have done some research and was overwhelmed at what I learned. SEO is slow, even when done by someone who knows what they are doing it will take months to get on that coveted first page. Now, add more time to try to figure out what the heck to do. Now add more time to recover from those stupid mistakes you made because you are a SEO rookie. That all adds up to lost revenue. Besides, I am already working 50-60 hours a week and don't have the time to do it at all, let alone do it right.
I have confidence in the firm that I hired, my son-in-law is a partner. 
So, if this were a hobby then I would take the time to learn SEO, but I need cashflow to support my investment. So I hired a professional.
I was just answering the first question at the top of the thread. I made no attempt to answer his second question. It may not be the best way for everyone but I believe it was the best way for me.

Thanks again for your comments.

Brian


----------



## ruch1v (Jun 9, 2008)

hey guys, i just wanted to ask 2 general questions about SEO
1. i read somewhere (i think it was in Rodney's long post regarding linking) that having your site posted on too many sites or unrelated sites could have a counterproductive impact, but if this is true, then does that also mean that when someone else mentions you on their site (for example without you knowing) it could still harm your search engine position?
and 
2. as you can see in my signature i have had the link written 'Funny tshirts' mainly because i remember reading somewhere once that it was more beneficial than to have just the site written, why is this? also is there a major difference?
thanks


----------



## purplepills (Apr 19, 2009)

Some of what you read is correct. Your second question is a very valid and yes, Googles algorithm does check text against the link. So if the are related then it is given a bit higher weight (this also falls back on semantic web comment)

Your first question is a bit tricky but the overall answer is yes. You can get dinged for that. A common thing to do way back was register for tons of forums and make bogus posts with your footer in the thread. And of course rich forum content can get picked up quite quickly by crawlers. And this behavior was quickly outlawed. but on the flip side, some how search engines are smart enough to pick up on that and know when not to ding the person. So it is a defined line. Long as you are not abusing it then you should be good. I for one moderate a couple of really huge forums and have links in my footers and get a large number of click backs from it. And have not been dinged by search engines.


----------



## Rodney (Nov 3, 2004)

> Rodney all I am saying with running up a huge bill, is that some "SEO" out there are not really good, charge too much, make guarantees that they can get you too the top and they cant. And use excuses that because someone else biult the site it is flawed and need all kinds of work. Just a money grab. Just saying be careful who you choose to do work for you. Not everybody is on the up and up.
> 
> There are errors on all my pages in one place or another and yet I come up first for the browser keywords that I want to come up first for.


We're in total agreement 



> i read somewhere (i think it was in Rodney's long post regarding linking) that having your site posted on too many sites or unrelated sites could have a counterproductive impact, but if this is true, then does that also mean that when someone else mentions you on their site (for example without you knowing) it could still harm your search engine position?


I don't _think_ I said that, but I may have said that just doing link exchanges for the sole purposes of getting your link out there may not have as much value as it once had.

Google has stated before that other sites can't harm your search engine position just by mentioning you or linking to you. Check the last post from a Google employee in this thread.


----------



## EnMartian (Feb 14, 2008)

Q1 We do our own SEO. Marketing and IT work very closely together and we've achieved nice rankings. It is a constant job. We're always tinkering with our site in order to make things work better from an SEO standpoint. 

Q2 There are advantages to following both paths. Doing it yourself is cheaper, but it may take up a lot more time. Hiring someone else can give you the services of an expert, but it will cost you money and, no matter what anyone tells you, there are no guarantees when it comes to SEO. Steer clear of any firm that guarantees they can get you a top 10 position. There are unfortunately some rather shady firms that do SEO, so check out whatever firm you're thinking of hiring before you sign a contract. You might also check whomever you're planning to hire out with SEMPO.


----------



## VinnyYak (Jun 13, 2007)

I know what CEO and CFO mean. But SEO? I honestly didn't know until I figured it out by myself. If you're wondering what these guys are talking about, I think SEO is acronym for search engine optimization.


----------



## HeatherLHC (Aug 17, 2007)

I have been contemplating this lately as well. I really do not have all the hours it takes to keep up with seo and I was given a reccomendation for a good companty that can do this, but I wonder what it might run. Is it really worth it. Anyone have a ballpark of how what firms charge for seo. Is it hourly or do they charge by the job.


----------



## Rodney (Nov 3, 2004)

> Anyone have a ballpark of how what firms charge for seo. Is it hourly or do they charge by the job.


I think it's different for each company. Probably best to contact a few to get an average service price if you're thinking of going that route.



> really do not have all the hours it takes to keep up with seo


That is a very common misconception. Seo (or at least the basic SEO that most small businesses need) doesn't takes hours in a day. It doesn't take months and being an expert.

It just takes a few basic steps. Once that's done, whatever normal marketing you do will have much more benefit to you.

Google even put out a nice starter guide that should help most businesses:
http://www.t-shirtforums.com/t-shirt-marketing/t70647.html


----------



## RogueStitch (Apr 1, 2009)

SEO firms are all over the place. If you find one that will pay for performance you are set. They charge morre, but since they're only taking percentage of sales, you can more easily roll the cost into your cost of doing business. But I agree with the above poster, the SEO that most small businesses need can be accomplished on your own with ZERO out of pocket, just some time banging your head into a wall. Then again, my time is priceless...so who know hwich is the better value.


----------



## Rodney (Nov 3, 2004)

In a weird coincidence, I just saw this post by a ​ employee on Twitter[/URL]:

A quick video from Google about "which SEO agency do you recommend" (or more aptly titled: "What to look out for")






Here's the page he was referencing in the video:

http://www.google.com/support/webmasters/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=35291


----------



## pgconversion (Apr 24, 2009)

Seo is a very professional job, purplepills said very correctly. Mainly those work to be done well and effective needs to have a lot of professional knowledge,but it is estimated that it is not so quick to master and you need to spend a lot of time and effort on studying sence you stop, or you slow down, your opponent will be beyond you.So you need to keep a lot of the conduct of the seo work,which will take more time and energy.
If your industry is highly competitive ,even a professional seo company can not put your position in the list. So I suggest that you invite people to do so, then you can focus on sales, and the effect of your development should be better.


----------



## HeatherLHC (Aug 17, 2007)

I have tried doing my own seo and with almost no background in computers, its tough. Time consuming, for me that is. I come up on searches under my business name, but not high up on my keyword searches. I am leaning toward having someone help -it may be more effective than spending money on paid advertising banners etc. Maybe? Advertising is expensive anyway you look at it. right?


----------



## roknrolltkovr (Mar 5, 2009)

Hey all,

Just wanted to throw my two cents out there. I am new to the garment business but not to seo, its been my main industry for a few years.

If you are trying to go for super broad terms like "screen printing" or anything with millions of search results, you'll definitely want professional help, and plan on lots of time and cash. If you are trying to dominate the results for "[your local city] screen printing", then that's another story and its really not as difficult as most seo "gurus" want to make it sound. Again, huge metro areas will probably be tough to crack, but may not be totally impossible if you're willing to put a ton of time into it. Here's a few basic principles that make up a large portion of Google's ranking algo's, and this should be enough to get most anyone ranked on the first page (or even 1st) for their local target keywords, smaller cities and towns especially.

1. Decide on your keywords. Get a general idea of keywords and phrases you think people will be searching for that relate to your business, make a list if you want. Google is nice enough to provide a free tool to tell you estimated search amounts for your given keywords, so you can see which ones will be bringing the most visitors to your site. Keep in mind that terms that have the most searches will probably be the most difficult to rank for, but not always.
https://adwords.google.com/select/KeywordToolExternal

2. Pick one phrase to start with. We'll focus on fixing up your website first before we get to the real meat of seo. If you are comfortable with html or are able to edit your website directly, then you should be fine with this, if not, its pretty basic but you may need to get someone to help.

You need to make sure your keyword is in the title of the website, which is located bewteen and tags in the html file. It should be the first part too, you can have words after it, but get your main keyword or phrase in there first (ex: "*Boise Custom Shirts* - The #1 Screen Printers in Boise".

3. Get your keyword/phrase in the *
 (Keyword Here) 
* tags of your website. These are heading tags and whatever is in them gives Google a good indication about what your site is about. Depending on how your website was coded and set up, you may or may not have heading tags.

4. Make sure there is content on your page! Google doesn't like empty sites, it wants its users to have plenty of imformation to look at once it gets to a website. This content needs to be unique (don't steal it from any other websites, Big G knows). You don't need a novel on your home page, but I recommend a couple hundred words if you can, more is better but it can be tough with business websites. Make sure you use your keyword / phrase at least a couple times in the home page! It can help to *bold* your keyword also, but don't abuse it.

5. Once you have made your site a little more Google friendly, its time for the most important part of our DIY seo project, the backlinking. A backlink is when another website links to your website. Google uses this as an indicator of internet "popularity", which equates to usefulness for Google's users.

The other important thing to know about backlinks is your "anchor text" matters. Anchor text is the text that is used to link to you. You want to make sure as much as possible your keyword is in the anchor text (yes this can be very hard to control). For example, if you can get a link from another website, you want it to say Boise Screen Printing instead of http://www.xyztshirts.com.

There is one pretty easy way to get backlinks while still being able to control anchor text, and that is by commenting on blogs. Blogs allow you to leave a link on the blog website when you make a comment on a post, and along with it your anchor text (usually the "Name" field). If you can comment on blogs generally related to your business (clothing or fashion blogs), thats the best, but if links from non related blogs come up, it won't hurt you. If you have all unrelated links, then it won't help you much, but it won't hurt you either.

From this point on, it usually comes down to who has the most quality links. Google gives pages a popularity ranking from 1 to 10 called Page Rank to every website, so its no surprise that a link from a Page Rank 5 website will be much better than a link from a Page Rank 2 website. Don't focus on this too much though, generally small local terms won't take huge amounts of backlinks at all, but of course every project differs. I've had websites rank with 10 backlinks before. For huge markets (terms with lots or search results), it can take tens of thousands or more links, but if you keep it small you really can rank on your own.

Really all it takes is persistence and patience, it can be quite a long process, Google treats every site differently. Just keep getting links! If you make it a goal to just get a few links to your website ever day, you really will see imporvements, and eventually the first page or first spot.

Here's a couple helpful tools for you.

Backlink Checker: Backlinks Checker Tool - Backlink Watch
Page Rank Checker: Google PageRank Checker - Check Google page rank of any web pages


I know this was a really basic guide, but if you are trying to rank for very small local terms, you don't need an seo company if you don't mind taking a little time to do it yourself. Hope it helps!


----------



## pgconversion (Apr 24, 2009)

Yes, to understand some basic knowledge of seo is necessary, and it will also help improve your efficiency and cost control 

1. When you make the website, you can follow the seo manner at the beginning so that it will help your search rankings in future.You may require your website developer to do as your request 

2. When people are looking for someone to help you do seo, you can test their results, while controlling costs 

3. With the seo knowledge, you can slowly try to do by yourself and it must be sustained unless there is no competition in your industry


----------



## ruch1v (Jun 9, 2008)

is there any way you can actually see where you currently rank on the search results in order to check your progress other than actually searching? because i havent startyed any seo work at all so at the moment im most likely hundreds of pages in

thanks


----------

