# Neenah paper, new paper and I



## badalou (Mar 19, 2006)

I stated in another thread that I would be doing some test for Neenah paper. Because of my focus on trying new papers and doing my videos showing you folks on how I get the job done. I was asked if I would work with them. I guess that is an honor. Surprisingly they said they have seen my videos. So I said I would. One of the papers I mentioned in the other thread was Image Clip for Ink jet printers. This is not to be confused with Image Clip for laser printers which is available now. Image Clip for Ink jet printers will actually not be available until Jan. I also stated i would do a video on the process. Well that will happen but not before I meet with them at the ISS show and go over some details. The process used is not as simple as printing with your printer and pressing. The idea is to eliminate the Polymer coating from around the image. To do this requires several steps and in fact does require a Mono laser printer as well as a ink jet printer. My point today is to let you know that there is something coming that can very well compete with a higher priced paper that is on the market now. Now that said i can't give the cost. If any of you have seen the DEC. issue of printwear magazine you will find an ad for the paper and it show the suppliers that *will *be selling it. I am placing a picture of the product on a tee that was sent to me and I scanned. I now refer to the product as ICIJ. feel free to ask questions, however I may not be able to answer yet but after my meeting with them in January I am sure i will be able to answer. I know I whetted your appetite because of the number of emails I have already received by placing info on the other thread. So here is the pic. Take a good look.. There is absolutely no polymer showing. This picture has not been doctored in any way. The image was soft as well. What I don't know is how well it holds up in the wash.. That is coming. They said it does great. Lou


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## charles95405 (Feb 1, 2007)

That looks really good...hopefully the price break will work for those interested...Most may not have a mono laser but the are really cheap now..some under $100. There is also a new paper around the corner for Laser printers, but I have not seen the results yet.


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## badalou (Mar 19, 2006)

I got a coupon today from Office depot for $10.00 off $30. or more. Because I buy from them and belong to their advantage club I just got $15.50 in free money from them. So A $99.00 laser mono printer is going to cost me... $73.50 lets see.. that will make 5 printers that I have and one for my wife.. If you guys live near an office depot store sign up for their advantage club and reap the rewards. i get coupons almost every week. Most lately have been $10 off $30. That is 33% savings if I spend just $30.00. great way to save on buying ink. Lou


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## tdprout (Mar 29, 2008)

Lou, they didn't perhaps mention any new developments for soft opaque transfer paper did they?


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## Lnfortun (Feb 18, 2006)

I was told by Mike (tshirtsupplies) that he has the paper for sale. It is just not posted in his website yet. Send him an email and ask for details.


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## plan b (Feb 21, 2007)

Lou can't wait to see that video it should be a eye opener


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## badalou (Mar 19, 2006)

Lnfortun said:


> I was told by Mike (tshirtsupplies) that he has the paper for sale. It is just not posted in his website yet. Send him an email and ask for details.


There is one distributor that has it according to neenah. That might be the case that it is Mike. Lou


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## prometheus (Oct 19, 2006)

I am wondering how much work this is going to take with an inkjet and a laser, how many steps is it? have you washed the sample for color fastness yet? Does Neenah make the ImageClip for the laser?


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## badalou (Mar 19, 2006)

prometheus said:


> I am wondering how much work this is going to take with an inkjet and a laser, how many steps is it? have you washed the sample for color fastness yet? Does Neenah make the ImageClip for the laser?


The Image clip for laser has been out for awhile. I never used it because I don't do laser. There are several steps to using the paper but it is not that hard to do. I won't go into that just yet. I just received the sample shirt from neenah and have not washed it yet. But I will in the next few day. I am swamped trying to get orders out.. Neenah would like to work with me at the show before I do the video. I want to present to you the best instructions that are easy to understand. Sometime I think instructions are written by peiople who do not do the work.They think it will appeal to the professional printer who wants a nice design that may be too intricate for contour cutting. By the way have not got a clear cost yet but was told it would be in the general range of other transfer paper. It will not be priced as the wow paper is for sure. Lou


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## MotoskinGraphix (Apr 28, 2006)

Still confused on the two printer aspect. I know image clip for laser printers but dont understand the two printer method mentioned for inkjet applications. I think its a three step paper that releases the polymer where not in contact with ink...guess we will wait and see.


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## DAGuide (Oct 2, 2006)

David,

I believe the concept is fairly simple and has been done with other companies in a similar format (i.e. two years ago, Sawgrass released a beta version of ChromaBlast 2.0 where they dropped a blocking agent down on the ChromaBlast paper). You have two pieces of transfer paper - one inkjet and one laser. One transfer paper is run through your inkjet printer with your graphic mirrored on it. The second paper is ran through your laser printer with your graphic inverted (i.e. everything that would typically be printed in your graphic is now blank and all the blank space typically on the transfer paper is now printed with a solid layer of toner). Then you take the pieces of paper and face them together (so that the ink on the inkjet paper will match up inside the blank area on the laser paper). Then you heat press the two types of papers together. The laser paper will have all of this toner on it that will act as a blocking agent for the polymer that will prevent that polymer you don't want to show up on your shirt (i.e. the window). After pressing, peel the two pieces of paper a part and now you have an inkjet transfer that only has the polymer where your inkjet ink is (i.e. no window).

As mentioned above, this is beneficial when you have a design that is to detailed to do print-cut efficiently. The key will be making sure that you properly press the two sheets together or you might not transfer all of the polymer properly to the inkjet paper and may get a poor wash test (similar challenge with Image Clip for laser printers only). Most likely, you will either want to print out all the transfers at the same time as the pressing of the two papers is typically done at a lower temperature than what you would press a transfer to the shirt (same challenge with Image Clip for laser printers only). Otherwise, you would need to heat presses or continuously increase / decrease the temperature on your heat press.

I personally have not played with this paper either, but I have heard about this paper in the works for well over a year and Neenah is a great company. So I am sure the results will be commercially acceptable. Just need to decide if these steps work for your business model.

Hope this gives you the quick summary of the process.

Mark


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## prometheus (Oct 19, 2006)

MotoskinGraphix said:


> Still confused on the two printer aspect. I know image clip for laser printers but dont understand the two printer method mentioned for inkjet applications. I think its a three step paper that releases the polymer where not in contact with ink...guess we will wait and see.


I would assume that the b/w laser is used to make the clipping path or the mask that reduces the polymer.


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## Girlzndollz (Oct 3, 2007)

badalou said:


> So here is the pic. Take a good look.. There is absolutely no polymer showing. This picture has not been doctored in any way. The image was soft as well. What I don't know is how well it holds up in the wash.. That is coming. They said it does great. Lou


 
So, Lou, that is actually a shirt that Neenah sent to you? What brand and fabric content is it? 

Have you actually pressed with the Image Clip IJ paper yourself yet? Thanks.


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## DAGuide (Oct 2, 2006)

prometheus said:


> I would assume that the b/w laser is used to make the clipping path or the mask that reduces the polymer.


Not trying to minimize all the R&D time spent developing the paper, but you got the basic concept for blocking the excess amount of polymer you don't want on the shirt.


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## MotoskinGraphix (Apr 28, 2006)

So basically you need two sheets of paper, two different printers, three times the amount of time for printing, pressing and application. Its a novel idea but I will stick with JPSS. Now will Epson please make an desktop inkjet printer that prints white ink and someone produce a clear polymer paper for darks.


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## DAGuide (Oct 2, 2006)

MotoskinGraphix said:


> So basically you need two sheets of paper, two different printers, three times the amount of time for printing, pressing and application. Its a novel idea but I will stick with JPSS. Now will Epson please make an desktop inkjet printer that prints white ink and someone produce a clear polymer paper for darks.


It will take longer than JPSS, but it will eliminate the time it takes to trim. The concept of this paper was for very intricate designs that you can't trim by hand or want to use an optical reg cutter. So you just need to determine when you should use on paper over another.

White ink in an Epson printer... sounds like you would have similar challenges as dtg printers. I am sure Epson knows how to make white ink, but probably does not want the tech support problems. But, maybe one day it will happen.

Mark


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## MotoskinGraphix (Apr 28, 2006)

I think I read that there were some limitations with the laser image clip. Problems with grays and or lite rendered shadow tones.


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## Lnfortun (Feb 18, 2006)

Here is the pressing instructions:

[media]http://www.neenah.com/technical/pdf/Printing_Instructions/ImageClip9822PO.pdf[/media]

Click on the blank box to view it.


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## Lnfortun (Feb 18, 2006)

I have played with DTG white ink. It did not work in a desktop printer with only four cartridges. I filled all the cartrdiges with white ink and forced the printer to print with all the four heads with multiple passes but still coud not get enough opacity to block the shirt from showing through. I even set the saturation to max. There was also the registration issue.

I know that with DTG the white ink is laid down with mutltiple pass with RIP before the colors are printed. When printing on the desktop the transfer paper has to be fed again and I noticed that the rollers put a pizza roller mark when printing multiple pass with white ink also.

With the DTG there is not have roller to deal with that makes contact with shirt.


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## badalou (Mar 19, 2006)

DAGuide said:


> David,
> 
> I believe the concept is fairly simple and has been done with other companies in a similar format (i.e. two years ago, Sawgrass released a beta version of ChromaBlast 2.0 where they dropped a blocking agent down on the ChromaBlast paper). You have two pieces of transfer paper - one inkjet and one laser. One transfer paper is run through your inkjet printer with your graphic mirrored on it. The second paper is ran through your laser printer with your graphic inverted (i.e. everything that would typically be printed in your graphic is now blank and all the blank space typically on the transfer paper is now printed with a solid layer of toner). Then you take the pieces of paper and face them together (so that the ink on the inkjet paper will match up inside the blank area on the laser paper). Then you heat press the two types of papers together. The laser paper will have all of this toner on it that will act as a blocking agent for the polymer that will prevent that polymer you don't want to show up on your shirt (i.e. the window). After pressing, peel the two pieces of paper a part and now you have an inkjet transfer that only has the polymer where your inkjet ink is (i.e. no window).
> 
> ...


Mark, that pretty much nailed it. Lou


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## badalou (Mar 19, 2006)

prometheus said:


> I would assume that the b/w laser is used to make the clipping path or the mask that reduces the polymer.


You would be correct.


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## badalou (Mar 19, 2006)

Girlzndollz said:


> So, Lou, that is actually a shirt that Neenah sent to you? What brand and fabric content is it?
> 
> Have you actually pressed with the Image Clip IJ paper yourself yet? Thanks.


The shirt is a hanes beefy tee 100% cotton. I have not as I want to work with neenah at the show. it is not a difficult process. But the need for a laser and a printer is needed. it is really not a hard process and will have limited use I am sure.


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## badalou (Mar 19, 2006)

MotoskinGraphix said:


> I think I read that there were some limitations with the laser image clip. Problems with grays and or lite rendered shadow tones.


David I believe I heard that as well. This is for inkjet. I am impressed with the finished product I was sent and posted. Right now with the end of the year and business in genteral i can't give this more time. I still need to get my laser printer.Lou


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## badalou (Mar 19, 2006)

Lnfortun said:


> Here is the pressing instructions:
> 
> [media]http://www.neenah.com/technical/pdf/Printing_Instructions/ImageClip9822PO.pdf[/media]
> 
> Click on the blank box to view it.


Thanks Luis. I still had questions on the instructions that is why I did not post them. Lou


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## Lnfortun (Feb 18, 2006)

For a ImageClip for laser user the instructions makes sense. Instead of using the red sheet to transfer the image it is now the inkjet transfer that has been weeded using the laser paper mask. Just like the process used for Wow 7.1.
I have used Wow 7.1 and the masking process is similar. Only there is no opaque material involved.

I would recommend that you use a silicon baking sheet (not parchment) when you press the mask and the inkjet papers. It helps even out the pressure on the entire surface. I know Neenah does not mention it. I find that the silicon baking sheet helps a great deal when pressing the red and green sheets together for the laser version. I got my silicon baking sheet at target for $7.00 + tax. If you watched the Wow 7.1 video a silicon sheet is used during masking and final pressing the transfer on the shirt.


Which part you have questions with? Maybe I can answer it.


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## proworlded (Oct 3, 2006)

Do you really think that the average person (including me) can follow those instructions? They seem to very complex and require some advanced computer skills. Do other people feel the same?


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## badalou (Mar 19, 2006)

Lnfortun said:


> For a ImageClip for laser user the instructions makes sense. Instead of using the red sheet to transfer the image it is now the inkjet transfer that has been weeded using the laser paper mask. Just like the process used for Wow 7.1.
> I have used Wow 7.1 and the masking process is similar. Only there is no opaque material involved.
> 
> I would recommend that you use a silicon baking sheet (not parchment) when you press the mask and the inkjet papers. It helps even out the pressure on the entire surface. I know Neenah does not mention it. I find that the silicon baking sheet helps a great deal when pressing the red and green sheets together for the laser version. I got my silicon baking sheet at target for $7.00 + tax. If you watched the Wow 7.1 video a silicon sheet is used during masking and final pressing the transfer on the shirt.
> ...


because I was asked by neenah to work with them I will wait. However you comments are very beneficial.


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## badalou (Mar 19, 2006)

proworlded said:


> Do you really think that the average person (including me) can follow those instructions? They seem to very complex and require some advanced computer skills. Do other people feel the same?


Ed, I don't think that will be the case.. I know I looked at the instructions and yes I did actually fool around with making a transfer but I was just doing a walk through. I did not use the actual paper and the mask I made with an inkjet. I think when I get more involved and do the video that will assist those that want help I think then maybe some of you will see it a different way. I don't know if you will sell the paper, in fact I may not. My work with neenah is not about me selling it. It is more about trying out new stuff for them and having the trust of neenah and the people who have followed my videos who may want to try it and helping them. I talked to one company on the matter and they are not sure if they will carry it. I think it will have a use but I don't know how wide spread that will be. As stated by you it is a bit more complicated but as you will see from others here some have a good handle on how it works. Lou


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## Girlzndollz (Oct 3, 2007)

Yep, seems like if you can use Image Clip for Lasers, you will be able to use Image Clip for InkJet. Why the desire to incorporate the need for a second type of printer, I don't see yet, but, I think it would be most beneficially for a Image Clip Laser user - who can also do inkjet - to test the papers for first hand side by side comparisons. Just my opinion. As a user of one paper exclusive to the other, how can the benefits of one paper over the other be truly evaluated? (Not really a question for answering... )... just food for thought.


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## MotoskinGraphix (Apr 28, 2006)

If its image clip for inkjets but you still need a black toner laser printer for the clipping mask why not just get a color laser and do regular image clip. I might be missing something here.


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## badalou (Mar 19, 2006)

Girlzndollz said:


> Yep, seems like if you can use Image Clip for Lasers, you will be able to use Image Clip for InkJet. Why the desire to incorporate the need for a second type of printer, I don't see yet, but, I think it would be most beneficially for a Image Clip Laser user - who can also do inkjet - to test the papers for first hand side by side comparisons. Just my opinion. As a user of one paper exclusive to the other, how can the benefits of one paper over the other be truly evaluated? (Not really a question for answering... )... just food for thought.


One has nothing to do with the other. Image clip for lasers you need to print color and you print that image. Image clip for inkjet is used with a color INKJET. You can use a color laser for your masking but you want to print the mask in black only. As stated this has nothing to do with Image Clip for lasers. So if you want to use this paper it is recommended if you don't want to do laser prints that you buy an cheap mono laser printer.


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## Girlzndollz (Oct 3, 2007)

I know all that, Lou. Fully get it. My point is, if you have Image Clip Laser, you can use one laser printer for the process, and it goes on to cotton. If you use Image Clip InkJet, you've introduced a second printer for no obvious benefit that pops right out at one... 

My thoughts are generally in the same place David's are.


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## badalou (Mar 19, 2006)

Girlzndollz said:


> I know all that, Lou. Fully get it. My point is, if you have Image Clip Laser, you can use one laser printer for the process, and it goes on to cotton. If you use Image Clip InkJet, you've introduced a second printer for no obvious benefit that pops right out at one...
> 
> My thoughts are generally in the same place David's are.


If you mean why use an inkjet printer if you have a laser then use image clip for laser instead of Inkjet? Is that what you are saying? if so the quality of the 2 product are different. I have had clients tell me they did not like image clip for lasers. The idea is to separate the image from the polymer surrounding. You don't do that with Image clip for laser. But that said. if you use a laser printer have you tried image clip for laser. I have not, so I am taking the words of others. If you love JPSS but do not have a cutter or do not want to do a lot of cutting around an intricate design then this may be your answer. There is more coming but questions bring answers. I still need to ask more.


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## Girlzndollz (Oct 3, 2007)

Yes, that is along the lines of what I am wondering. I guess the main question will be: Is the Image Clip InkJet paper and result a better quality than the Image Clip Laser, and if it is, then that would be the reason to bring a second printer and inks into the process. 

Thanks for responding and keeping the discussion going, 
because we got to the idea behind the questions.


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## badalou (Mar 19, 2006)

Girlzndollz said:


> Yes, that is along the lines of what I am wondering. I guess the main question will be: Is the Image Clip InkJet paper and result a better quality than the Image Clip Laser, and if it is, then that would be the reason to bring a second printer and inks into the process.
> 
> Thanks for responding and keeping the discussion going,
> because we got to the idea behind the questions.


There you go.. you got it.


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## rtarh2o (May 3, 2007)

There is no polymer left behind with Image Clip for lasers either, it works great! There are some limitations with really light colors but I have found that if you set those colors a bit darker they come out fine. I can't imagine the inkjet working any better and laser toners are far cheaper than inkjet aren't they?
Rusty


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## badalou (Mar 19, 2006)

rtarh2o said:


> There is no polymer left behind with Image Clip for lasers either, it works great! There are some limitations with really light colors but I have found that if you set those colors a bit darker they come out fine. I can't imagine the inkjet working any better and laser toners are far cheaper than inkjet aren't they?
> Rusty


 Rusty, as I have never worked with any laer printer in doing transfers then I find you comments very helpful in regards to Image clip for lasers. Are toners cheaper?.. I think someone here could probably answer that better then me. Alos I should state that this just one of the papers I will be working with in testing.. There is some more new stuff coming from neenah.. but that will have to wait until my meeting.. Thank. Lou


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## prometheus (Oct 19, 2006)

I think one way of looking at this paper, is if you are already doing inkjets (but not laser), then you could go out and buy a relatively cheap b/w laser printer and add this to your work flow and have no polymer.


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## Lnfortun (Feb 18, 2006)

Girlzndollz said:


> Yep, seems like if you can use Image Clip for Lasers, you will be able to use Image Clip for InkJet. Why the desire to incorporate the need for a second type of printer, I don't see yet, but, I think it would be most beneficially for a Image Clip Laser user - who can also do inkjet - to test the papers for first hand side by side comparisons. Just my opinion. As a user of one paper exclusive to the other, how can the benefits of one paper over the other be truly evaluated? (Not really a question for answering... )... just food for thought.


Kelly,

The second printer is used to make a mask. A cheap laser printer be will the way to go, instead of expensive color laser printer, but should not be cheap in print quality. Because the mask has to be very opaque black in order for the black toner to bond on the inkjet polymer and weed out the unwanted polymer. You can not print directly on to an inkjet paper and Imageclip for inkjet is no exception. Otherwise Neenah would have indicated it. Although I printed on JPSS with laser but I did not pursue it because the polymer got darker. 

I do not have the paper to try yet but I believe the inkjet version is the solution to the limitations of laser version. I said that because the process for inkjet is the opposite of the laser version. With laser version the image is printed on the imaging paper and then the polymer coated paper is pressed on to the imaging paper. If the color is very light or gradient or the image is a photo the polymer will not have enough toner to bond on. Therefore the finished transfer will have polymer void.

The inkjet version on the other hand the image is printed right on the transfer paper. Therefore light color or gradient or photo image will not be a problem unlike the laser version.

What I am concerned is, will some of the black toner transfer to the inkjet paper?

There are comments about the instruction. It is really not difficult to do. I have used photoshop, Word and yes CorelDraw as well to make a mask. I like to use Corel because I can make registration allowances by using contour tool. Where as it is difficult in photoshop and it cannot be done in Word. When I was trying Wow 7.1 I used CorelDraw to make a mask.

I have been playing with the process using regular inkjet transfer paper. I used the ImageClip for laser red sheet as mask because the polymer of a regular inkjet transfer will bond to a standard laser paper. I can get rid of about 80%-90% of the polymer but the left over polymer is still bad enough that the window is pretty obvious when pressed on the shirt. Sometimes some of the black toner was transferred to the inkjet paper.

When I get the real sample(s) I will try to make a pdf file instruction with graphical illustration if I find the product viable.


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## badalou (Mar 19, 2006)

Great response Luis. I sent you an email. Lou


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## proworlded (Oct 3, 2006)

Lou. I'll be curious to find out what the 'real' cost of this paper will be. Seems like the preparation time is very labor intensive. Cost of the paper + cost of the inks + cost of the prep time = ??


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## badalou (Mar 19, 2006)

proworlded said:


> Lou. I'll be curious to find out what the 'real' cost of this paper will be. Seems like the preparation time is very labor intensive. Cost of the paper + cost of the inks + cost of the prep time = ??


Good Morning Ed.. Those were questions I asked as well. My contact is on vacation but the general question I asked is the cost of the paper. The answer was "About the same as other transfer papers" Now that said. You are correct. There is additional cost and for that reason some will stay away from using it. Some who have the equipment now may use it but on a limited bases. I think you could do a shirt under 5 minutes. if I had both a printer and a laser printer I could acutlly print both of the pieces I needed at same time. That would be under a minute. First press less then a minute and second press under a minute. In between would be set up time. As stated I have not done the proceedure yet. I could be wrong. Lou


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## proworlded (Oct 3, 2006)

Good morning, Lou. How's things in California before the sun rises? Actually, it hasn't risen here either...cloudy and rainy...and cold.


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## badalou (Mar 19, 2006)

proworlded said:


> Good morning, Lou. How's things in California before the sun rises? Actually, it hasn't risen here either...cloudy and rainy...and cold.


Spent an hour with one of your customers last night on the phone. He was having issues with pressing a pink shirt and color change and transfer release. I had to reassure him what was going on was nothing to do with the transfer but with the press leaving its mark and pre-pressing. First timers get scared when this happens. I walked him trough the process. He is OK now. It is raining now.. 43 degrees.. Lou


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## proworlded (Oct 3, 2006)

Thanks. Have a great weekend.


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## badalou (Mar 19, 2006)

badalou said:


> I stated in another thread that I would be doing some test for Neenah paper. Because of my focus on trying new papers and doing my videos showing you folks on how I get the job done. I was asked if I would work with them. I guess that is an honor. Surprisingly they said they have seen my videos. So I said I would. One of the papers I mentioned in the other thread was Image Clip for Ink jet printers. This is not to be confused with Image Clip for laser printers which is available now. Image Clip for Ink jet printers will actually not be available until Jan. I also stated i would do a video on the process. Well that will happen but not before I meet with them at the ISS show and go over some details. The process used is not as simple as printing with your printer and pressing. The idea is to eliminate the Polymer coating from around the image. To do this requires several steps and in fact does require a Mono laser printer as well as a ink jet printer. My point today is to let you know that there is something coming that can very well compete with a higher priced paper that is on the market now. Now that said i can't give the cost. If any of you have seen the DEC. issue of printwear magazine you will find an ad for the paper and it show the suppliers that *will *be selling it. I am placing a picture of the product on a tee that was sent to me and I scanned. I now refer to the product as ICIJ. feel free to ask questions, however I may not be able to answer yet but after my meeting with them in January I am sure i will be able to answer. I know I whetted your appetite because of the number of emails I have already received by placing info on the other thread. So here is the pic. Take a good look.. There is absolutely no polymer showing. This picture has not been doctored in any way. The image was soft as well. What I don't know is how well it holds up in the wash.. That is coming. They said it does great. Lou


First wash test. Cold water. Hot dry. Compare with original before wash. Not much color loss. first one was second original. Lou


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## Lnfortun (Feb 18, 2006)

Lou,

That is encouraging.


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## vananchez (Jul 21, 2009)

so....where is this paper


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## Girlzndollz (Oct 3, 2007)

vananchez said:


> so....where is this paper


 
Hi and :welcome:

You can find more about this paper from this thread:

http://www.t-shirtforums.com/heat-press-heat-transfers/t71144.html#post422265

And tshirtsupplies.com is one of the suppliers carrying it. You can look at the Preferred Vendors on the left, and see who else is carrying it (I am not familiar with who else carries it), or google for more suppliers as well. Check for Preferred Vendor discounts as well. Sometimes the discounts can save ya some money. Good luck... Kelly


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## vananchez (Jul 21, 2009)

Thanks........: )


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