# Nike Elite Sock Dye Sublimation Process/Questions



## sweetelites

*Lately I've been doing A LOT of research on how to transfer custom designs onto Nike Elite socks using dye sublimation with a heat press. I have a lot of questions though! * 

1. I'm going to buy the GeoKnight DK20 16x20 Clamshell Press, is it a good press?

2. What type of transfer paper would I use on a white Nike Elite sock? (Include a link if possible.)

3. How long do I put the sock in the press for? (Include preheat time)

4. How would I make my designs? What software? 

5. Would I be able to use an Epson Stylus CX6000 with special CISS Sublimation ink or would I need a whole new sublimation printer? 

6. If my press is 16x20, would my Epson Stylus CX6000 be able to print out the paper?

7. What temperature would the socks be on for?

8. Could someone make me a custom logo? It would have to include Sweet-Elites, because that is going to be my brand name. It would also probably have to do something with basketball.

I could just really use some help on the whole topic. I'm trying to earn some extra money for college, while giving back to the community. I have a passion for Nike Elite socks and would LOVE to make my own someday. I'd like to do the stuff that Rock 'Em Apparel | Clothing, Accessories, Custom Nike Elite Socks and Arm Sleeves does, so that way I could give back and do giveaways for people who can't afford stuff like this.


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## selanac

Didn't I answer those questions already? 

Have you looked at the other Nike Elite Posts on this site? There's one going around. You can do a search for: Nike Elite.

You can use any design you want. Just higher a Graphic Designer to come up with it. If you're at a College, don't they have a Graphic Design Major, or Visual Communications?

The Sublimation Paper company will tell you how long to cure them for, and how hot.

Contact Cobra Inks for printers. Once you switch to Sublimation ink, it's not easy to switch back and forth to Dye ink, Pigment ink or Sublimation ink. It can be done, but it's bothersome. I'd use a printer for each method.


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## sweetelites

selanac said:


> Didn't I answer those questions already?
> 
> Have you looked at the other Nike Elite Posts on this site? There's one going around. You can do a search for: Nike Elite.
> 
> You can use any design you want. Just higher a Graphic Designer to come up with it. If you're at a College, don't they have a Graphic Design Major, or Visual Communications?
> 
> The Sublimation Paper company will tell you how long to cure them for, and how hot.
> 
> Contact Cobra Inks for printers. Once you switch to Sublimation ink, it's not easy to switch back and forth to Dye ink, Pigment ink or Sublimation ink. It can be done, but it's bothersome. I'd use a printer for each method.


Not entirely, I still didn't quite know the answers to them. Yeah, I looked around, just couldn't find the answers. I don't really have the money to hire one, I'm only 15. I'm not at college and my highschool doesn't offer design classes. 

What specific paper would I need?

I have two printers, the Epson Stylus CX6000 isn't used but works. I was going to use that for sublimation and keep the other printer for regular prints.


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## callmep

Dude just stop. This is a forum, we're here to help but when a child from Mommy and Daddys basement wants all the answers and wants to put 0 effort into obtaining them, noones gonna help you. Use the search bar it's your friend.


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## sweetelites

callmep said:


> Dude just stop. This is a forum, we're here to help but when a child from Mommy and Daddys basement wants all the answers and wants to put 0 effort into obtaining them, noones gonna help you. Use the search bar it's your friend.


What are you even talking about? I've been searching all over the Internet for weeks and nothing comes up.


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## Metro Printing

hi, new to forum here


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## selanac

Sweet Elites, good for you that you're starting this venture at your age. 

I mentioned where to go for the printer/ink. Also you said something earlier about colleges, so my fault I assumed you where in college. 

On Craigslist there is a Community Section/Artist. Look around and see if you can get someone to do the artwork for you at your cost. 

I also mentioned you need Sublimation paper for Hard or Soft Surfaces. If your socks are soft, you need soft. If your socks are made of ceramic or hard plastic you need Hard surface paper. Yes I know your socks aren't made of ceramic so you need Soft Surface Paper right?

Also, you can ask the Suppliers/Vendors. It's in their best interest to help you, since you'll more than likely be a life time customer. 

Not trying to be critical, but trying to get you to be a Critical Thinker. I've probably saved your parents hundreds of thousands of dollars of college expenses just telling you that.


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## sweetelites

selanac said:


> Sweet Elites, good for you that you're starting this venture at your age.
> 
> I mentioned where to go for the printer/ink. Also you said something earlier about colleges, so my fault I assumed you where in college.
> 
> On Craigslist there is a Community Section/Artist. Look around and see if you can get someone to do the artwork for you at your cost.
> 
> I also mentioned you need Sublimation paper for Hard or Soft Surfaces. If your socks are soft, you need soft. If your socks are made of ceramic or hard plastic you need Hard surface paper. Yes I know your socks aren't made of ceramic so you need Soft Surface Paper right?
> 
> Also, you can ask the Suppliers/Vendors. It's in their best interest to help you, since you'll more than likely be a life time customer.
> 
> Not trying to be critical, but trying to get you to be a Critical Thinker. I've probably saved your parents hundreds of thousands of dollars of college expenses just telling you that.


Thanks, this is the one main question I haven't found an answer for - Do I have to use a dye sublimation printer or can I use my Epson Stylus CX6000 with special sublimation ink?


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## selanac

So did I give you a website to find that answer? 

There's no such thing as a Sublimation Printer by itself. Once you put Dye Sublimation ink in, it's now a dye sub printer. Mainly because that's what you use it as. 

In order to know if you can use that printer, you need to be able to put Dye Sub ink in it. Now you need to find out whether you can buy dye sub ink in bottles, and buy either refillable cartridges or a CISS for your printer. 

Now, go to the website I gave you, and call them. Ask if they have those things for your printer.


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## sweetelites

selanac said:


> So did I give you a website to find that answer?
> 
> There's no such thing as a Sublimation Printer by itself. Once you put Dye Sublimation ink in, it's now a dye sub printer. Mainly because that's what you use it as.
> 
> In order to know if you can use that printer, you need to be able to put Dye Sub ink in it. Now you need to find out whether you can buy dye sub ink in bottles, and buy either refillable cartridges or a CISS for your printer.
> 
> Now, go to the website I gave you, and call them. Ask if they have those things for your printer.


Alright, thanks!


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## selanac

Please don't think I'm trying to be mean. I'm trying to help you and get you to think at the same time. 

Sometimes it's easier to just ask questions. However, our time is valuable too. 

Also, many people just Price shop (shop for the cheapest product), and don't consider the relationship between them and the seller. 

The seller will help you determine what you need, and give you support. You won't find that on ebay.


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## solematestore

So, I visited the website, would screen printing work for transferring custom designs on Nike elites?


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## solematestore

I really thank you all and appreciate your help. 
I am looking to create custom elite socks by transferring designs
on. I want to use dye sublimation. 
I am confused on the materials. I know I will need a heat press, 
but what kind of printer do you recommend? Can I use my regular printer
and just get sublimation ink? What kind of transfer paper exactly do I need?
After that do I just print out the design on the transfer paper using the printer
and ink and then just put the design on top of the socks, press it on both sides, 
and then its good?


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## Riderz Ready

I would suggest you get someone to print for you at the beginning to reduce your cost. Furthermore the Nike Elite sock does not print that well. Looks good sitting on a table flat but have you ever seen one being worn?


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## solematestore

Hi SweetElites, 

I am confused just as you were about the same topics. 
Any luck in getting designs on to elites with good quality?
I am really interested in all the questions you asked exactly earlier and am trying to see if you have figured anything out. 

Thanks


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## Uncle Remus

at $14 a pop i think i would start with something less expensive to learn on but thats just me, if you have the cash to burn go for it


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## selanac

I bought this 100% poly from Wal-mart. I believe about $3.00 a pair. A customer of mine found some Nike-Elites for $9.50 each. 

As long as you don't wrap the image around the socks they're fine. Once you start wrapping the image around you have to be careful.


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## solematestore

I am sorry, what do you mean by "wrapping the image"?

Thanks


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## selanac

Wrapping the image around the sock. meaning, your not placing little images like stars, basketball players on small sections, but completely wrapping the sock with an image all the way around.


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## solematestore

Does anyone have a dye sublimation printer that they like?
I am looking for one and if anyone has one and it works good
for them...


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## selanac

I use an epson 7010 as do many others.

Do you mean a physical printer or a person to print for you?


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## solematestore

A physical printer. This is for dye sublimation right?

Hey everyone, I have been very frustrated and confused
on to which method to go with: Screen printing or dye sublimation
for making custom elites. I have been researching for a long time
I have talked to both people from Screen Printing and Dye sublimation, 
and still am not sure which one to choose. Any suggestions? What do you guys use?

Thanks


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## headfirst

solematestore said:


> Does anyone have a dye sublimation printer that they like?
> I am looking for one and if anyone has one and it works good
> for them...


My customers tell me I'm their favorite dye sub printer


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## solematestore

Patrick, what do you print, which printer do you use?


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## selanac

As mentioned many times, people use Epson printers. Not only epson, but you would do well with an Epson. Right now you can get one for a little over $100. Check ebay for an Epson 7010. You'll need refill carts. Search for Refill carts that fit an Epson 7010 and has reset switches on each cart.


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## solematestore

So what is the best quality sublimation ink and sublimation paper I should get 
for me epson 7010 for eventually making custom elites?

You can call me Dave


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## solematestore

Hello, I am very confused about ink for the epson 7010.
I am looking for sublimation ink. Is it best to get refillable cartridges 
and refill the with sublimation ink? Which ink is the best quality?
Where should I get the cartridges? If you know of any ink or place
please post the url


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## Riderz Ready

solematestore said:


> Hello, I am very confused about ink for the epson 7010.
> I am looking for sublimation ink. Is it best to get refillable cartridges
> and refill the with sublimation ink? Which ink is the best quality?
> Where should I get the cartridges? If you know of any ink or place
> please post the url


You need to contact the likes of Johnson Plastic, Coastal, Conde, etc and let them put a suggested system together for you that includes the correct ink, paper and icc profiles. Taking bits and pieces of a bunch of post and trying to glue together a solution that provides professional results will cost you a lot of time and money.


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## mgparrish

solematestore said:


> Hello, I am very confused about ink for the epson 7010.
> I am looking for sublimation ink. Is it best to get refillable cartridges
> and refill the with sublimation ink? Which ink is the best quality?
> Where should I get the cartridges? If you know of any ink or place
> please post the url


Refillable carts (or prefilled carts) for the 7010 are not available from Sawgrass vendors. 

Sawgrass only offers a proprietary ink system for the 7010, like a CIS but with bagged inks.

Unless the info on their websites is dated, then neither Conde nor Johnson Plastics support the 7010. Coastal graphics offers the 7010 on their website. There is full sublimation support with ICC profiles and refillable carts outside of Sawgrass at a much lower entry cost and cost per page.


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## Riderz Ready

solematestore said:


> Hello, I am very confused about ink for the epson 7010.
> I am looking for sublimation ink. Is it best to get refillable cartridges
> and refill the with sublimation ink? Which ink is the best quality?
> Where should I get the cartridges? If you know of any ink or place
> please post the url


 
Being that it appears you are new to the process you deserve full disclosure so you can make an informed decision. People will refer to "other" vendors that offer a cheap solution to Sawgrass ink. The company most refer to is Cobra Ink. Unless their website is outdated you will not find dye sublimation on their web site. You have to have the special "code" or "knock" to inquire on such. That begs the quetstion - why does any company not promote the products they sell? The answer is pretty simple Cobra Inks does not have a license to sell their ink to the desktop market. They will hide it, call it "high temp" ink, etc. Ever notice most people will not even mention their name on this forum fearing the Sawgrss "police" will shut them down again?

When Sawgrass gets annoyed enough they slap them around a bit as they have in the past. Now you have the risk that your ink provider could get shut down leaving you at ground zero.

Even more important, in my opinion, is IP is something most people in this industry value and respect. The people who have no issue recommending a non-licensed vendor would be the first to scream if another company skirted the issue and sold their IP to others. Personally I believe buying ink from non-licensed companies is no different then someone stealing our designs and reselling them. I can only guess the people referring others to non licensed ink are simply people who print for others and do not posses any IP (designs) of their own. It is no different than recommending to someone to go on eBay and buy unlicensed sports apparel for 1/3 the price of licensed sports apparel. 

Make it clear I personally think Sawgrass is a plague to this industry but that does not give one the moral right to skirt the license to save a buck. 

If Cobra Ink soltuions were on the up and up they would be proudly selling their ink in the open not in the shadows.


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## mgparrish

solematestore said:


> Hello, I am very confused about ink for the epson 7010.
> I am looking for sublimation ink. Is it best to get refillable cartridges
> and refill the with sublimation ink? Which ink is the best quality?
> Where should I get the cartridges? If you know of any ink or place
> please post the url


Yes, since you are new to this you do deserve full disclosure.

FACTS:

The last litigation for Sawgrass patent infringement was Texas Original Graphics (TOG) vs. Sawgrass. About 5 years ago.

The result was that the Markman phase of the trial found TOG was not infringing upon the SG patent.

The Sawgrass patent is not for sublimation ink broadly, it is for a substance in the inks (a EEA specifically) that keeps the inks from clumping inside the print head.

The courts ruling was that claims in the Sawgrass patent in question was that ..

"Accordingly, based on the Court’s examination of the intrinsic evidence in this case, the Court construes the term EEA to mean a chemical agent that disperses and stabilizes heat activated dye solids within a liquid solvent and protects the dye solids from exposure to heat *prior to and during* the printing process."​ 
Bold emphasis mine.

This is important because it comes down what is_ in_ the inks matter. The SG patent was crafted before piezo inkjets like Epson's printers were in the market. The problem at the time that the specific claims was that the common inkjets in the market in 1993 (HP and Canon) used _heat_ to transport the inks.

Because Epson printers use electrical charge and to transport the inks_ during_ the printing process it is not necessary to shield those inks from heat.

The court decision was largely based on the initial rejection of the patent by the patent office and Sawgrass admission during the Markman hearing that the inks had a heat limitation. 

"The Court next examines the ’907 Patent’s prosecution history. TOG argues that, during prosecution, *Sawgrass **made a number of disavowals of claim scope to avoid **rejections and thereby added certain limitations to the meaning of the term EEA*. TOG first argues that Sawgrass *added a heat protection-related limitation to avoid rejection* by distinguishing its invention from prior art references cited by the examiner in rejecting all proposed claims on obviousness and other grounds. Specifically, in the Office Action dated November 10, 1994, *the examiner rejected all of Sawgrass’s proposed claims* as obvious in light of Japanese Patent No. 57-102390 and U.S. Patent No. 5,350,929, which disclose a thermal transfer printing method (that does not specifically require the use of an ink jet printer) and a thermal ink jet printer, respectively. 
_See _Office Action dated November 10, 1994 at 4-6, Pl.’s App. 270-272. In distinguishing the invention of the ’907 Patent from the prior art cited by the examiner, Sawgrass stated in its Response to the Official Action Dated November 10, 1994 at 6, Pl.’s App. 278, that “[t]he emulsifying enforcing agent . . . *wraps **the dye particles to shield and protect heat activated or sublimation dye prior to and during **the printing of the ink by the ink jet printer*.” Sawgrass further sought to distinguish its invention with the Declaration of Ming Xu Under 37 CFR § 1.132 at 4, Pl.’s App. 290, in which Dr. Ming Xu, one of the listed inventors of the ’907 Patent, stated that Lignosol, one of the patent’s preferred EEAs,“disperses the dye into the carrier, and holds and shields the dye from exposure to heat during the printing process performed by the ink jet printer.”​*While Sawgrass initially disputed the existence of a heat-related limitation, Sawgrass **conceded during the *_*Markman *_*hearing in this case that the EEA does indeed serve a heatshielding **function. *_*See, e.g.*_*, Markman **Tr. 37, ll. 1-5 (“[The EEA] does shield from heat, and **as a full reading of that office response shows, Dr. Xu was referring to heat not just in the **printing process but prior to printing and other instances where the dye might be exposed to **heat.”* (statement of G. Trenholm Walker)). *Accordingly, the Court finds that the invention **of the ’907 Patent includes a heat protection limitation as suggested in Sawgrass’s response*.

Bold emphasis mine.

In plain English Sawgrass patent would not apply if you didn't place a substance in the inks (specifically called a EEA) to keep the inks from activating due to the heat in the print head created during the printing process. Heat can cause the sublimation to start, we see this clearly when we heat press a sublimation transfer. Epson's don't create and apply heat to the inks during the printing process.


An out of court settlement was later reached were in effect Sawgrass paid off TOG to drop the lawsuit.​ 
The Markman hearing proved that TOG did not infringe on the Sawgrass patent and the presiding judge gave TOG 30 days to seek a settlement with Sawgrass. If the parties didn't settle then the case proceeded to summary judgement where the issue of monetary awards would be determined along with the fate of the future of the patent.​ 
Because the case was resolved due to mutual agreement then the case was never taken to summary judgment, this left Sawgrass with a piece of paper to harass others with, but anyone with any understanding of patents knows that the patent has effectively been neutered, the Genie is out of the bottle now.​ 
To equate that one is legally and morally "stealing" any of Sawgrass IP is pure BS. If you print up a bunch of Mickey Mouse Tshirts the FBI can come and arrest you and prosecute you. If you copied someone else art design it can be criminally prosecuted.​ 
_If_ you infringe on a patent it is a civil matter. The reason that patent are structured as they are is that should be written concise enough that others can avoid them, either by not selling a product with those _specific_ claims or by being creative and solving the problem in a unique way.​ 
It also cannot be determined if someone is infringing unless a full court action is brought forth. No one is infringing unless the court finds it is infringing. Not the same as stealing someone's art design. If you copy someone's copyrighted art design it can be readily seen in most cases the intent was to copy or make enough of a resemblance to the original and profit from someone's work.​ 
In the case of patents the claims themselves must be infringed on, not the same as copying the function of a product. It is very possible to produce the same result as a patented product and not infringe on it. That is why the patent has a required structure.​ 
Sawgrass has abused their patent in such a way that they deem it to man anything they wish, not what it states it means. They use the cost of defending yourself against their *frivolous* litigations as a means to keep out competitors. A small vendor cannot afford to defend themselves and a larger company can afford to pay the license and royality costs which are almost always much cheaper for a larger company than fighting it out in court.​ 
No one making inks today are "stealing" anything of Sawgrass, the patent was intended to keep inks from activating in thermal print heads, and incidently the inks never made it into HP's or Canon's ... which tells me their idea didn't work.​


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## Riderz Ready

To say the patent is neutered and the genuie is out of the bottle is laugable. How many companies have been slapped since the patent was found neutered? How many companies have reached a license agreement with Sawgrass since the patent was neutered. Would seem pretty simple for any company - even Cobra Inks to use your logic (opinion) and present to a court that the issue was resolved in the Marksman case. You claim TOG was paid off - how do you know this? Can you please copy and paste the settlement stating Sawgrass paid TOG in a settlement? How do we not know TOG simply agreed to cease and desist?

It is simply your personal opinion on why companies, most recently Epson, pay a license to Sawgrass - nothing more. You have zero knowledge why Epson licensed their ink. In fact a company like Epson can out spend Sawgrass 100,000 to 1 and not even come close to effecting their bottom line. They can bring a company like Sawgrass to their knees with liitigation cost yet they chose to license the ink. To state the Marksman case neutered the patents is again a personal opinion. People who are looking to save a dime, or make a dime, will always try to justify their actions.

In short to the end user in the desktop market it maters ZERO what I think or what you think. If you think the license/patents are not valid and or abused fine - that is your opinion. What matters is if Sawgrass gets annoyed at the likes of Cobra Inks they will shut them down - period. You arguing your Marksman case and cries of patent abuse will fall on deaf ears will it not? People using the un-licensed ink would be sent scrambling. 

Just amazes me people think a relatively small company like Sawgrass really can bully people and abuse patents. Their are a pimple on some of the larger companies backside when it comes to financial clout.


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## solematestore

So do you recommend me contacting Cobra or just going with Sawgrass? How would I buy from them?


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## paintersspouse

solematestore said:


> So do you recommend me contacting Cobra or just going with Sawgrass? How would I buy from them?


I use Cobra and am very happy with them.


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## Riderz Ready

solematestore said:


> So do you recommend me contacting Cobra or just going with Sawgrass? How would I buy from them?


To be honest the entire arguement of ink cost is mute for 90% of the desktop market as most do not use enough ink for it to really effect their COGS.


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## paintersspouse

Riderz Ready said:


> To be honest the entire arguement of ink cost is mute for 90% of the desktop market as most do not use enough ink for it to really effect their COGS.


The cost of ink makes a difference to me. I can get a set of inks( 4) 4 oz(118 ml) each for just over 110.00 total.

Sublijet cost about 60.00 for 29ml or 240.00 for a set or over 700.00 for the same amount I get for about 110.00

That seems to be a big difference to me. Especially for a small business.


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## Riderz Ready

paintersspouse said:


> The cost of ink makes a difference to me. I can get a set of inks( 4) 4 oz(118 ml) each for just over 110.00 total.
> 
> Sublijet cost about 60.00 for 29ml or 240.00 for a set or over 700.00 for the same amount I get for about 110.00
> 
> That seems to be a big difference to me. Especially for a small business.


First you are missing the point of cost of goods sold. If one is making mugs, etc the cost of ink has very little bearing on the cost of the mug.

Second - very few people purchase Sawgrass cartridges. Comparing Cobra Ink cartridges to a product no one buys is silly.

No one disputes there is a cost difference. My comment was simply pointing out that many people in desktop are not consuming enough ink to significantly effect the COGS.

Why is it people who use Cobra Ink rarely call it by name?


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## solematestore

So if I were to go for Cobra, should I get a CIS kit? Is that the only option I have for the Epson 7010?


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## paintersspouse

solematestore said:


> So if I were to go for Cobra, should I get a CIS kit? Is that the only option I have for the Epson 7010?


I have the CISS with the 7010. I bought my printer somewhere else.


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## solematestore

Same, I am going to buy my printer from somewhere else. Did you buy this: 

.:: Cobra Ink Systems::. This is where the term CIS began

How does the CISS system work? Is the CISS system just the cartridges and then you 
keep refilling ink in them?


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## paintersspouse

solematestore said:


> Same, I am going to buy my printer from somewhere else. Did you buy this:
> 
> .:: Cobra Ink Systems::. This is where the term CIS began
> 
> How does the CISS system work? Is the CISS system just the cartridges and then you
> keep refilling ink in them?


Yes that will work great. The ink is in the clear plastic wells and travels through the tubes to the print heads. You fill the clear plastic wells only.


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## mgparrish

Riderz Ready said:


> To say the patent is neutered and the genuie is out of the bottle is laugable. How many companies have been slapped since the patent was found neutered?
> 
> *WT?? is slapped? *
> 
> *There has been ***zero*** litigation since TOG vs. Sawgrass. Define "slapping".*
> 
> *Most companies selling large format ink in high volume it is cheaper to pay the troll than to fight him. *
> 
> *There is a simple reason large format ink vendors agree to license and small format vendors do not. The license is too costly and unreasonable for those selling low volume inks on the desktop and the cost is litigation to is even higher. *
> 
> *If it wasn't too costly and unreasonable then logic thinking would suggest there would licensees on the desktop. SG has made a decision to have no competition o the desktop by making a license unreasonable to negotiate.*
> 
> How many companies have reached a license agreement with Sawgrass since the patent was neutered.
> 
> *False logic. Your logic doesn't go to the actual reality. It does not demonstrate that the SG '907 patent is not being abused. *
> 
> *It is a fact that companies give in due to the cast of litigation vs. the licensing fee. No small format vendor can afford the license not the litigation. While some large format vendors may have the money to fight it is almost always cheaper to pay the license.*
> 
> *The problem is well know in patents. *
> 
> *****This argument cannot be broken.******
> 
> *http://www.ipwatchdog.com/2013/04/09/the-rise-of-patent-litigation-in-america-1980-2012/id=38910/*
> 
> *"As with so many things in life, the problem is with the bad actors. The trouble is that it is difficult to identify exactly who those bad actors really are in many cases. This is partly because of clever abuse of the system, but mainly because defendants when sued for millions of dollars greatly prefer opting for an extortion-like settlement of $25,000 to $50,000 when it is offered. Increasingly this type of extortion-like behavior is being recognized by the district courts and the Federal Circuit, but the system is not set up to suppose there will be bad actors manipulating the litigation process in a shake-down that would make Al Capone blush."*
> 
> *http://www.internetretailer.com/2009/10/02/online-retailers-take-their-case-against-patent-abuse-to-the-sup*
> 
> *The brief argues that most business method patent lawsuits settle rather than go to court, “so long as the license fee is less than the multimillion dollar cost of litigation. Accordingly, Internet retailers collectively spend hundreds of millions of dollars on patent settlements that would be much better spent on innovation, job creation and job retention.” *
> 
> *How much is that patent lawsuit going to cost you? | Bootstrap - CNET News**#!*
> 
> 
> *Is a patent troll watching your business now? | MedCity News*
> 
> *The “Small Change” Hold-Up Strategy*
> 
> *The majority of NPE litigation consists of “nuisance suits” that target smaller companies for hundreds of thousands of dollars. NPEs take advantage of the fact that most venture-backed companies don’t have the resources of big corporate players, which often include a first-class **legal team**.*
> *As a result, the venture-backed company is subject to something of an old-fashioned hold up. Here’s how it works. The patent troll threatens to sue for significant royalties. The financial threat, business distraction and cost of defending the company disposes the startup to a lower settlement. Faced with possible ruin, the venture-backed company agrees to a tidy settlement of $20,000. If they instead choose to engage in a legal battle, the settlement threshold goes up, forcing them back to the initially intended amount. In the end, the startup takes the path of least resistance, and the NPE makes it up on volume.*
> *This is how the patent trolls build their war chests to go after bigger fish. For example Lodsys, a well-known patent troll, has settled with about 150 **iOS developers** so far. Startups, meanwhile, are frustrated that instead of spending $20K to grow their business, they have to pay off a patent troll."*
> 
> 
> *Read more: **Is a patent troll watching your business now? | MedCity News**"*
> 
> Would seem pretty simple for any company - even Cobra Inks to use your logic (opinion) and present to a court that the issue was resolved in the Marksman case.
> 
> *No. I never stated this in that way. Fact is that the patent was found flawed. Because the settlement was reached the judge was not required to act on the patent itself. The weakness in the patent is clear and obvious to anyone technical. New allegations of infringement would require a new trial and a new Markman hearing. Start from a new piece of paper. *
> 
> *However, the **knowledge*** learned from TOG vs Sawgrass will not go away, in that sense the Genie is out of the bottle. If you don't put in a EEA in the ink that protects the inks against heat during the printing process it is no stretch of imagination that another court won't come to the same conclustion. *
> 
> *Specifically because:*
> 
> *A. The patent office made SG modify the patent before it was granted to only claim the EEA function as protecting the inks prior to AND during printing.*
> 
> *B. Piezo inkjets do not need a EEA to protect from heat during printing so there is none. Why put something in your inks that you don't need and would violate a patent?*
> 
> *C. SG stated under oath that the patent had that heat limitation.*
> 
> You claim TOG was paid off - how do you know this?
> 
> *Can you actually read? I know that a settlement was reached this is not opinion it is fact. It is also a fact that TOG did not infringe ... absolute fact. Now you tell me what else would motivate TOG to go away quietly other than a lucrative settlement?*
> 
> *Fact - the judge had ruled the Markman case and that the claims in the patent were not applicable to TOG inks.*
> 
> *Fact - The findings of fact in the case allowed the court to have enough evidence to proceed to summary judgement. The judge himself indicated that the patents enablement was in question.*
> 
> Can you please copy and paste the settlement stating Sawgrass paid TOG in a settlement? How do we not know TOG simply agreed to cease and desist?
> 
> *The dismissal of the case due to an out of court settlement is attached. You are naïve to think that private settlement terms are presented to the public. Of course I can't post the $$ amount IT IS PRIVATE.*
> 
> *Now let's use some COMMON SENSE. Why would TOG walk away since it was found that they were not infringing. Why agree to a "Cease and Desist" when the court found they (TOG) did not infringe? So while they did agree to "Cease and Desist" in the MUTUALLY agreed settlement I pose to you .. WHY? *
> 
> *Why do so after a court ruled you don't have to?*
> 
> *I'd really like to here your "alternate theory" ??? *
> 
> *What else besides taking a large sum of money? *
> 
> *Especially since they just spent YEARS and hundreds of thousands of dollar fighting over this?*
> 
> *Your implication that TOG didn't settle for money is beyond ABSURD. DUH*
> 
> *That dog not only doesn't hunt, he can't bark either. *
> 
> It is simply your personal opinion on why companies, most recently Epson, pay a license to Sawgrass - nothing more.
> 
> *No it is not my personal opinion as to why companies settle vs. litigate. See the references I applied from tech sectors and legal organizations. It is a fact that the cost of litigation (win or lose) often far exceeds the cost of licensing. This argument cannot be broken.*
> 
> You have zero knowledge why Epson licensed their ink. In fact a company like Epson can out spend Sawgrass 100,000 to 1 and not even come close to effecting their bottom line.
> 
> *Again I speak to the facts. It is cheaper to settle than litigate.*
> 
> *Refer to the long list of articles I posted above on this. ***Your dog does not hunt.*** You have zero knowledge why Epson licensed their inks either. *
> 
> *It is no stretch of the imagination that they weighed the costs vs. benefits and concluded why fight it in court and spend millions of dollars when it costs them a much lower amount to agree to a license (reports have been $250K for a license + ongoing fees). I don't care how big a company is, no one throws away money. The other FACT is that the patent is going to expire in about 16 more moths. The time to litigate the clock would have already run out on the patent anyway.*
> 
> They can bring a company like Sawgrass to their knees with liitigation cost yet they chose to license the ink. To state the Marksman case neutered the patents is again a personal opinion.
> 
> *Again the Markman does not directly apply to new litigations, however, the FACTS learned from the TOG vs. SG Markman are what they are.*
> 
> *FACT a sublimation ink can be formulated to work around the patent and there is no need to apply the "art" of the '907 patent unless you are needing to keep the inks from activating during the printing process.*
> 
> People who are looking to save a dime, or make a dime, will always try to justify their actions.
> 
> In short to the end user in the desktop market it maters ZERO what I think or what you think. If you think the license/patents are not valid and or abused fine - that is your opinion. What matters is if Sawgrass gets annoyed at the likes of Cobra Inks they will shut them down - period.
> 
> *It's been over 5 years now since the '907 defeat in the last Markman and Cobra's been out there several years now ... are they shut down or "spanked" NO.*
> 
> You arguing your Marksman case and cries of patent abuse will fall on deaf ears will it not? People using the un-licensed ink would be sent scrambling.
> 
> *Who is "scrambling"? *
> 
> Just amazes me people think a relatively small company like Sawgrass really can bully people and abuse patents. Their are a pimple on some of the larger companies backside when it comes to financial clout.
> 
> *A patent in the hand of a bad actor can be abused, it makes no difference as long as the bad actor has enough funds to pursue frivolous lawsuits.*
> 
> *You have ZERO knowledge on this subject. It is a fact larger companies are targets of smaller "bad actors" abusing their patents.*
> 
> *Patent abuse has been an on-going issue and FACT is that patent reform legislation was passed in the US congress and passed into law a couple of years ago. The intent of the law is to prevent abuse in the system but many argue the laws don't go far enough.*
> 
> 
> Acacia Awarded $12.4 Million In Patent Infringement Case Against Yahoo | TechCrunch
> 
> Lawsuit Summary - Video Enhancement Solutions, L.L.C. v. Denon Electronics (USA), L.L.C. et al
> 
> Red Hat, Rackspace Hosting Win Against Patent Troll
> 
> Patent Troll Tracker: A Deeper Look at Acacia
> 
> http://www.entrepreneur.com/article/225842
> 
> https://www.eff.org/patent-busting
> 
> https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/04/1-800-contacts-buys-patent-squelch-competition


Markups above.


----------



## solematestore

So is it illegal to buy high temp. inks from cobra?


----------



## mgparrish

Riderz Ready said:


> First you are missing the point of cost of goods sold. If one is making mugs, etc the cost of ink has very little bearing on the cost of the mug.
> 
> *No you are missing the point. While an argument can be made the extra cost can be recouped into a substrate* *cost if the printed area is small then why pay a huge amount that you are forced to pay UPFRONT if you don't have to. *
> 
> *Saving a thousand dollars is saving a thousand dollars.*
> 
> Second - very few people purchase Sawgrass cartridges. Comparing Cobra Ink cartridges to a product no one buys is silly.
> 
> *But people ARE wanting refill carts. Those that are informed don't buy SG carts. *
> 
> *But many printers with Sawgrass there is no Epson cart option period. For those that want carts then either Sawgrass doesn't support them, or makes them so expensive buying them from Sawgrass is nothing* *short of theft. *
> 
> *People do want carts and yes the cost matters there.*
> 
> No one disputes there is a cost difference.
> My comment was simply pointing out that many people in desktop are not consuming enough ink to significantly effect the COGS.
> 
> *Again, given the choice to save up to $1000 upfront most choose to put the money in their pocket. No Brainer.*
> 
> *And you presume only small items like mugs are done on the desktop. For items large tile size, mousepad, tshirts, totes, puzzle, metal photos ink costs add up quickly. Very few print **only** mugs and small Unisub stuff on the desktop.*
> 
> Why is it people who use Cobra Ink rarely call it by name?
> 
> *Why ask a question that you already know the answer to?*


Markups above.


----------



## mgparrish

solematestore said:


> So is it illegal to buy high temp. inks from cobra?


No. First the inks must be found infringing on a patent (by a court) then a court order for the "infringer" to stop producing them must be presented. Or a temporary injunction must be presented to the accused by the court during the trial.The last lawsuit the party selling non Sawgrass licensed sublimation inks was found not to infringe, this was 5 years ago, no lawsuits since then.

It is up to Sawgrass to seek out "infringers" and file lawsuit. The last one they were involved in 5 years ago the court failed to find any infringement.


----------



## Riderz Ready

solematestore said:


> So is it illegal to buy high temp. inks from cobra?


It is not illegal to do such just as it is not illegal to buy unlicensed sports apparel, bootleg purses, etc.

It is a personal choice one makes to do such.


----------



## Riderz Ready

To be honest I did a Cliff Note pass through as I figure the long winded editorial that ones claim as facts was the same as all the other cut and paste post. 

One quick point to show how one constantly states an opinion as fact. Cobra Ink was slapped - that is a fact. Parrish - you can claim it not so all you want but you truly are the only one that believes their opinion is fact by default. Did Cobra Inks pull "high heat" inks from their web site? Did Cobra Inks stop selling "high temp" inks to new customers at one point? Did Cobra Inks beg people like you not to continue to use their name in forums and such?

Do you not get the more you defend Cobra Inks and their practices of selling non-licensed ink the more you bring the spotlight they so detest onto them.

You keep going - I am sure Richard appreciates the support and the press.


----------



## mgparrish

Riderz Ready said:


> It is not illegal to do such just as it is not illegal to buy unlicensed sports apparel, bootleg purses, etc.
> 
> It is a personal choice one makes to do such.


Again you equating "knockoff" goods with alleged patent infringment. 

And again you are _assuming_ a patent has been infringed. 

Patents are published in a way so that one can avoid infringment by reading the claims. 

A piece of art you _look_ at it and see if it is very similar, real simple, if the copyright holder can prove that the art is his copyright property. 

"Knockoffs" can be prosecuted criminally whereas patents are civil issues.

A products _functions_ can copy another products functions 99.9% and still not be infringing on a patent. It depends on how broad or narrow the patent is. You cannot change the nose on Mickey Mouse slightly and say it is different with Copyright. The question is does it look _enough_ like Mickey Mouse or not? 

FAIL. Apples and Oranges.


----------



## mgparrish

Riderz Ready said:


> To be honest I did a Cliff Note pass through as I figure the long winded editorial that ones claim as facts was the same as all the other cut and paste post.
> 
> One quick point to show how one constantly states an opinion as fact. Cobra Ink was slapped - that is a fact. Parrish - you can claim it not so all you want but you truly are the only one that believes their opinion is fact by default. Did Cobra Inks pull "high heat" inks from their web site? Did Cobra Inks stop selling "high temp" inks to new customers at one point? Did Cobra Inks beg people like you not to continue to use their name in forums and such?
> 
> *Do you not get the more you defend Cobra Inks and their practices of selling non-licensed ink the more you bring the spotlight they so detest onto them.*
> 
> You keep going - I am sure Richard appreciates the support and the press.


Another logical fallacy. You just created another false strawman (a lie), then you use it to argue against.

I have not mentioned that vendor, it is YOU that keeps bringing up that vendor. And YOU were the first one to mention any specific vendor outside of Sawgrass. It is YOU that threw that name out there, not me. FAIL 

It is YOU that is "spotlighting".


----------



## Riderz Ready

mgparrish said:


> Again you equating "knockoff" goods with alleged patent infringment.
> 
> And again you are _assuming_ a patent has been infringed.
> 
> Patents are published in a way so that one can avoid infringment by reading the claims.
> 
> A piece of art you _look_ at it and see if it is very similar, real simple, if the copyright holder can prove that the art is his copyright property.
> 
> "Knockoffs" can be prosecuted criminally whereas patents are civil issues.
> 
> A products _functions_ can copy another products functions 99.9% and still not be infringing on a patent. It depends on how broad or narrow the patent is. You cannot change the nose on Mickey Mouse slightly and say it is different with Copyright. The question is does it look _enough_ like Mickey Mouse or not?
> 
> FAIL. Apples and Oranges.


What fails is people such as yourself in this industry that have no respect for IP whether it be a design, licenses, patents, etc. Who really cares how an offense is punishable? It makes zero difference to one moral beliefs. Whether you are ripping off Mickey Mouse or someones license/patents only matters to people such as yourself.

Of course it is me mentioning Cobra Inks by name. Just getting people like you to argue about such allows people such as myself to put the spotlight on a company such as Cobra. The more you want to defend their actions the more the spotlight gets shined on them. Instead remaining quite on a topic you have no skin in the fight you just keep taking the bait.

Already proven a majority of what you say is pure personal opinion and nothing to do with fact including your FACT that Cobra Ink has not been slapped when anyone following Cobra Ink knows that is not the case. 

You keep posting and the light will keep shining.


----------



## mgparrish

Riderz Ready said:


> What fails is people such as yourself in this industry that have no respect for IP whether it be a design, licenses, patents, etc. Who really cares how an offense is punishable? It makes zero difference to one moral beliefs. Whether you are ripping off Mickey Mouse or someones license/patents only matters to people such as yourself.
> 
> Of course it is me mentioning Cobra Inks by name. Just getting people like you to argue about such allows people such as myself to put the spotlight on a company such as Cobra. The more you want to defend their actions the more the spotlight gets shined on them. Instead remaining quite on a topic you have no skin in the fight you just keep taking the bait.
> 
> Already proven a majority of what you say is pure personal opinion and nothing to do with fact including your FACT that Cobra Ink has not been slapped when anyone following Cobra Ink knows that is not the case.
> 
> You keep posting and the light will keep shining.


Riderz, by your logic then rest assured you in possesion of products where others are "ripping off" someone else's ideas.

Time to purge yourself of your cell phone, your PC, some software in your PC, your car, medicines in your cabinet at home. Do you use Facebook? SHAME ON YOU.

YOU are in possesion of "infringing product". Time to live up to your own "standards". 

Have you ever used non Epson carts or an ink delivery system in a printers? Shame on you, Epson has claimed they infringe.

Come clean now it's your moral obligation.

Ericsson sues Samsung - Samsung sues Ericsson
Samsung responds to Ericsson patent suit with its own lawsuits | Politics and Law - CNET News

Sony, Siemens sued

Subsidiary of Marathon Patent Group Files Patent Lawsuit Against Sony, Siemens and Others - MarketWatch

New Patent Lawsuit Filed Against Ford
New Patent Lawsuit Filed Against Ford

Apple-Samsung Patent Lawsuit
Apple-Samsung Patent Lawsuit: Samsung Ordered To Pay Apple $1.05 Billion

Toyota Prius: Parked by Patent Lawsuit
Toyota Prius: Parked by Patent Lawsuit? - Automotive News

Judge says Apple, Motorola using lawsuit as business strategy
Judge says Apple, Motorola using lawsuit as business strategy | Mobile Technology - InfoWorld

Apple Sued for Patent Infringement
HARDOCP - Apple Sued for Patent Infringement

patent lawsuits posts on CNET
Apple sued over sound tech by George Lucas' THX

Silicon Valley has Facebook's back in Yahoo knife fight (Yahoo sues Facebook)

patent lawsuits posts on CNET


Reality is that the average consumer cannot make heads or tails of all of this. If Sawgrass wants to go after others it is their choice, until they do and convince a court THERE IS NO INFRINGMENT. The last time they tried they FAILED. 

YOU are buying infringing products more so than those buying inks outside of Sawgrass, these products you have in your possesion there are current allegations of infringment and YOU support these "thiefs".

There are ZERO SG sublimation patents in litigation and not for the last 5 years either. While SG may be waving their *crap* patent around from time to time and using the fear of litigation as an extortion means, "spanking" I believe is your term, there is still no INFRINGEMENT alleged or otherwise until SG takes this to a court and gets a judgment.

I cannot take your artwork (artwork you pay others to make for you BTW) and either copy it outright or make something that resembles it enough to be mistaken for the original and sell it when you you have a legitmate copyright claim. I am not allowed to change a small amount of "your" artwork and make it different slightly and claim it is mine.

The point you cannot seem to get thru your head is that copying others products is legal and it's moral as long as I stay away from the _specific_ claims spelled out in the patent. I can clone a product and it's function 99% as long as I avoid the detailed and specific claims. No way I can do that with your artwork.

Your "moral" argument fails because alleged patent abuse is RAMPANT, everyone is suing everyone. Some claims are legitmate some are not. 

FACT: Most patents that are fought against in court the patent holder loses the majority of the time. That is how bad the system is.

Now before you claim others inks are infringing _de facto_ why don't you get specific as to how they are infringing. The is no patent for sublimation ink in it's entirety. Tells us what inks are infringing .... or do you believe Sawgrass patent cannot be worked around?


----------



## Uncle Remus

getting my popcorn ready this is getting interesting


----------



## Riderz Ready

Uncle Remus said:


> getting my popcorn ready this is getting interesting


It is kind of funny - you have a Napoleon complex chap that just cannot stand the fact that they got left behind right in the dye sub craze that is upon us. This guy tries to bring people down to his level of a hobbiest all the while so frustrated that someone in just a few short years went from nothing to the leading cut and sew BMX shop in the country to the point we were able to bring a print and cut vinyl system in-house and embroidery in-house. 

To be honest I get his frustration. Stuck crushing trinkets out for family members while others have prospered beyond his imagination. But that is not the issue - the issue is whether or not Cobra Inks has the right to sell unlicensed inks legally or morally. It really is a personal opinion either way. 

Parrish claims that MANY of you buy COBRA INKS. What is many? Surely the amount is minimal at best to Sawgrass but how does COBRA INKS unlicensed sales effect JP, Conde, Coastal and the likes. Those people are effected more than Sawgrass.

Can you imagine how much time Parrish racks up on employers time searching, copying, pasting, etc on forums? Has to be staggering.

So how many people are really using COBRA INKS? Is it really many?


----------



## paintersspouse

Riderz Ready said:


> It is kind of funny - you have a Napoleon complex chap that just cannot stand the fact that they got left behind right in the dye sub craze that is upon us. This guy tries to bring people down to his level of a hobbiest all the while so frustrated that someone in just a few short years went from nothing to the leading cut and sew BMX shop in the country to the point we were able to bring a print and cut vinyl system in-house and embroidery in-house.
> 
> To be honest I get his frustration. Stuck crushing trinkets out for family members while others have prospered beyond his imagination. But that is not the issue - the issue is whether or not Cobra Inks has the right to sell unlicensed inks legally or morally. It really is a personal opinion either way.
> 
> Parrish claims that MANY of you buy COBRA INKS. What is many? Surely the amount is minimal at best to Sawgrass but how does COBRA INKS unlicensed sales effect JP, Conde, Coastal and the likes. Those people are effected more than Sawgrass.
> 
> Can you imagine how much time Parrish racks up on employers time searching, copying, pasting, etc on forums? Has to be staggering.
> 
> So how many people are really using COBRA INKS? Is it really many?


Rider again you take it to a personal level. Why keep going there when it does not add to the conversation. I post while I am at work as well. However I also work, take phone calls, troubleshoot on my own time for my employer as well. You do not know the situation with his employment just as you don't know mine. You would be better off keeping to the topic on hand instead of stepping in the gutter again and again.


I use other than Sawgrass inks but still do all my paper and blanks purchasing from Conde and Coastal. I can afford to buy more supplies because my ink cost is less. They don't lose anything.


----------



## sweetelites

Does this equipment sound alright to use dye sublimation on Nike elite socks, with the GeoKnight DK20 16x20 clamshell, an epson 7010 with CISS, and maybe adobe, unless something else is preferred, I'd like to make a business out of this. If you know of anything that would help as to keep the ink in or any hints and tips, feel free to post. I'd appreciate it. Thank you.


----------



## Riderz Ready

paintersspouse said:


> Rider again you take it to a personal level. Why keep going there when it does not add to the conversation. I post while I am at work as well. However I also work, take phone calls, troubleshoot on my own time for my employer as well. You do not know the situation with his employment just as you don't know mine. You would be better off keeping to the topic on hand instead of stepping in the gutter again and again.
> 
> 
> I use other than Sawgrass inks but still do all my paper and blanks purchasing from Conde and Coastal. I can afford to buy more supplies because my ink cost is less. They don't lose anything.


My goodness the lengths one will go to to justify their means. You really think you are doing Conde and Coastal a favor purchasing COBRA INKS? Seriously? That is like telling the IRS you do not pay Federal taxes because you can buy more and pay additional sales tax. 

I am sure your employer would be thrilled to know you steal time from them surfing the web for personal use.


----------



## Uncle Remus

sweet....you will need a design program of some sort. You also need transfer paper & the correct ICC profile for your inks

I have never did socks of any kind & have only seen a few pair that looked good when pressed Riderz was one of them but they were not Nike Elites ( if i remember right )

From what i have been told Nike Elites are very hard to get right because of the deep ribbing & the ink will not get into the ribbing thus leaving white strips when they are worn.

I do wish ya the best on doing them


----------



## sweetelites

I'm just trying to have some fun making them and selling like rockem apparel does.


----------



## Riderz Ready

sweetelites said:


> Does this equipment sound alright to use dye sublimation on Nike elite socks, with the GeoKnight DK20 16x20 clamshell, an epson 7010 with CISS, and maybe adobe, unless something else is preferred, I'd like to make a business out of this. If you know of anything that would help as to keep the ink in or any hints and tips, feel free to post. I'd appreciate it. Thank you.


Small word of advice - before running off and spending money on production equipment you may want to consider alternatives.

Even before that you need to think through how you are going to seel the socks. There are countless post on T-shirt forums from people with great ideas that can not generate web traffic or sales. 

Google "custom socks" - over 31M hits. How are you going to get people to even know you offer such a service? 

Most people love to create - few like to sell. Once you have figured out how to generate significant web traffic and sales then it is time to look at equipment. Way too many to it backwards.


----------



## sweetelites

If I got down the process of it fully, I'd definitely like to create and sell them. I just have a few questions.


----------



## paintersspouse

I don't steal time from my employer. I have a job that is flexible. That means I can post or check email at work and in turn I remote in from home to several of his businesses and handle problems when I am not on the premises. He wins , I win. By the way I am now at home, I have already responded to work emails and I am about to log into one of the company servers in another city to get the info my boss just asked for all in my flexible work schedule.


----------



## paintersspouse

sweetelites said:


> If I got down the process of it fully, I'd definitely like to create and sell them. I just have a few questions.


The 7010 and CISS is a good combination. You can try out Adobe Photoshop and Illustrator free for a certain time and the pay by the month.

If you get the artwork down, you could also add in the fleece beanies or other items as a package. It is a lot of fun to do this as a small business. Good luck and feel free to ask more questions.


----------



## sweetelites

Definitely. I wasn't just going to do the socks, I was hoping to start a smaller scale apparel for a pretty good cost.


----------



## paintersspouse

sweetelites said:


> Definitely. I wasn't just going to do the socks, I was hoping to start a smaller scale apparel for a pretty good cost.


If you need prints bigger than what you can do on the 7010. SKDave on this forum is the guy to contact. His prices are great. He will print and then mail the transfers to you. That way you don't have to invest in a bigger printer unless your business warrants it.


----------



## sweetelites

paintersspouse said:


> If you need prints bigger than what you can do on the 7010. SKDave on this forum is the guy to contact. His prices are great. He will print and then mail the transfers to you. That way you don't have to invest in a bigger printer unless your business warrants it.


I'll probably end up going with the 7010. It'd be easier for me. Is there a specific ink you would recommend for the CIS in the 7010? Paste a link please.


----------



## selanac

Sawgrass is the ink you want. Call them.


----------



## sweetelites

selanac said:


> Sawgrass is the ink you want. Call them.


Are they pretty flexible on ink prices?


----------



## selanac

No, but they own the patent. Contact them and they can tell you which vendors sell their products.


----------



## sweetelites

What's the website?


----------



## selanac

Come on Man!


----------



## sweetelites

selanac said:


> Come on Man!


I'm just playing with you, haha. I can't seem to find an email or phone number on the site.


----------



## sweetelites

mgparrish said:


> Paul, THE patent?
> 
> Are you another that believes this is a "de facto" patent encompasssing the totality of sublimation inks and anything infringes?


So sawgrass doesn't necessary own the patent? So legally, I'd be able to buy from a different distributor?


----------



## solematestore

I am just going to call cobra. Also, I am a little confused of what CIS, CISS and what that really is. 
Are those cartridges? Or the Ink?


----------



## selanac

At one point you're going to just have to try it.


----------



## solematestore

Also, does anyone have experience making custom elites with the epson 7010?
Is it hard to heat press the designs printed from the epson 7010 and get it fully on the sock?
does the ink on the sock start to crack?


----------



## Uncle Remus

Sawgrass does own A patent on small format inks, what it covers appears to be open for discussion.

You can buy them from any distrubutor that sells it like Conde, Coastal Business, Johnson Plastics just to name a few.


----------



## sweetelites

Uncle Remus said:


> Sawgrass does own A patent on small format inks, what it covers appears to be open for discussion.
> 
> You can buy them from any distrubutor that sells it like Conde, Coastal Business, Johnson Plastics just to name a few.


So say, I bought dye sub ink for the 7010 on eBay, is that perfectly legal?


----------



## selanac

That's not for anyone on this forum to say.


----------



## solematestore

So I know Cobra does not have a patent, but would they be cheaper than conde, coastal business and others?


----------



## sweetelites

selanac said:


> That's not for anyone on this forum to say.


I'd like to know before I go out and buy dye sub ink. So it's pretty much frowned upon but there isn't a way to say its legal or illegal?


----------



## mgparrish

solematestore said:


> Also, does anyone have experience making custom elites with the epson 7010?
> Is it hard to heat press the designs printed from the epson 7010 and get it fully on the sock?
> does the ink on the sock start to crack?


Sublimation inks cannot crack, they are dyes. As Riderz eluding to the socks themselves are not perfect for the process getting the dyes to cover in all the areas I believe.


----------



## paintersspouse

If you have a large format printer you can buy all kinds of sublimation ink but for some reason Sawgrass supposedly has a patent that makes ink for smaller printers not allowed. Not that they have a different ink but just not allowed in desktop printers.


----------



## Uncle Remus

solematestore said:


> Also, does anyone have experience making custom elites with the epson 7010?
> Is it hard to heat press the designs printed from the epson 7010 and get it fully on the sock?
> does the ink on the sock start to crack?


 dye-sub ink dont crack

I suppose if it was easy to imprint nike elite socks and make them look good a bunch more on here would be doing it since they sale at $40 for around $25 profit


----------



## solematestore

Also, do you guys know how I would get designs for dying onto the elite socks? 

Should I try to learn how to use a program and make it myself?
Is there anyone here that knows where to get designs?


----------



## solematestore

Also, do you guys know how I would get designs for dying onto the elite socks? 

Should I try to learn how to use a program and make it myself?
Is there anyone here that knows where to get designs?.


----------



## mgparrish

sweetelites said:


> I'd like to know before I go out and buy dye sub ink. So it's pretty much frowned upon but there isn't a way to say its legal or illegal?


Only a court can make that determination and the patent owner must file a _civil_ case against the alleged infringer.

Information on Patent Infringement | The Burdon Falls on the Patent Owner to Prove Infringement

*"Proving Patent Infringement:* In a patent infringement lawsuit, the burden of proof is on the plaintiff (the patent owner) to prove that the defendant (the alleged infringer) is infringing the patent owner’s patented invention. If the patent owner can prove willful infringement, the court may award treble damages."


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## sweetelites

mgparrish said:


> Only a court can make that determination and the patent owner must file a _civil_ case against the alleged infringer.
> 
> Information on Patent Infringement | The Burdon Falls on the Patent Owner to Prove Infringement
> 
> *"Proving Patent Infringement:* In a patent infringement lawsuit, the burden of proof is on the plaintiff (the patent owner) to prove that the defendant (the alleged infringer) is infringing the patent owner’s patented invention. If the patent owner can prove willful infringement, the court may award treble damages."


Someone said that sawgrass has a patent on smaller scale dye sub ink for smaller printers. Does that apply to larger printers?


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## solematestore

Oh, sorry, some how I posted twice...


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## solematestore

The epson 7010 is not a larger scale printer right?


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## sweetelites

solematestore said:


> The epson 7010 is not a larger scale printer right?


To me, I think it is. It can print up to 13x19 if I'm correct.


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## mgparrish

Uncle Remus said:


> Sawgrass does own A patent on small format inks, what it covers appears to be open for discussion.
> 
> You can buy them from any distrubutor that sells it like Conde, Coastal Business, Johnson Plastics just to name a few.


Actually that is not totally correct. The '907 patent claims do not specify printer carriage length, that is a business decision Sawgrass made to offer licenses and they offer licenses to large format ink vendors.

Otherwise no one in large format would pay for such a license in the first place.

An example.

Sawgrass Technologies - 05/16/2011 -- Sawgrass Technologies & InkTec Sign License Agreement for Sublimation Technology


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## mgparrish

sweetelites said:


> Someone said that sawgrass has a patent on smaller scale dye sub ink for smaller printers. Does that apply to larger printers?


The '907 Patent that Sawgrass has does not limit to small format printers. What the patent can claim is limited to language in the "claims" section. 

No such language exists for carriage width, or even to inkjet sublimation printers _broadly_. It has a specific "claim scope" to something that is added to keep inks from clogging.


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## solematestore

So sweetelites,

You are getting the Geoknight Clamshell heat press 16x20,

An epson 7010

And a Ciss system with ink w/ sublimation transfer paper?

You are making custom elites right?

What are you doing to get designs to put on the elites?


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## sweetelites

solematestore said:


> So sweetelites,
> 
> You are getting the Geoknight Clamshell heat press 16x20,
> 
> An epson 7010
> 
> And a Ciss system with ink w/ sublimation transfer paper?
> 
> You are making custom elites right?
> 
> What are you doing to get designs to put on the elites?


I'm probably going to get adobe cs6 or illustrator. I haven't made any customs yet, I'm getting my heat press sometime later on this week. I've been researching since almost February on all the kinks.


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## Uncle Remus

i did not know that, i always heard they had the market cornered on the 24" and below printers.


All i know is come late 2014 Sawgrass is in deep trouble...lol


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## skdave

How many hours can this kinder garden be open?


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## sweetelites

skdave said:


> How many hours can this kinder garden be open?


I emailed you a week or two ago, and you never got back to me. I'd like to get in touch


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## selanac

Guess he's not from here cause he doesn't know what you're talking about.


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## skdave

sweetelites said:


> I emailed you a week or two ago, and you never got back to me. I'd like to get in touch


 
Sorry I will past.


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## solematestore

So just before buying everything, would these materials get the job 
done in the best manner for creating custom nike elite socks?

1) Epson Workforce 7010

2) 16x20 Sublimation Digital Heat Press Machine Transfer | eBay (heat press)

3)100 Pcs 11"x17" Sublimation Ink Transfer Paper Heat Press for Epson Printers | eBay (paper)

4)Cobra ink high quality CIS system ink

I would print my own design on the paper and heat press it on to the socks. 

Please let me know if this would work or if another better way is known. 

Thanks


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## mgparrish

solematestore said:


> So just before buying everything, would these materials get the job
> done in the best manner for creating custom nike elite socks?
> 
> 1) Epson Workforce 7010
> 
> 2) 16x20 Sublimation Digital Heat Press Machine Transfer | eBay (heat press)
> 
> 3)100 Pcs 11"x17" Sublimation Ink Transfer Paper Heat Press for Epson Printers | eBay (paper)
> 
> 4)Cobra ink high quality CIS system ink
> 
> I would print my own design on the paper and heat press it on to the socks.
> 
> Please let me know if this would work or if another better way is known.
> 
> Thanks


I would avoid the Ebay paper, there are several recent posts here for that Royal sublimation paper causing strange artifacts in the final transfer. Get your paper based on the ink suppliers recommendation.

I haven't transferred socks before but based on other posts in this thread the Nike socks have voids when you transfer, you might look at another brand.


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## solematestore

What do you mean be voids? What should I look at other brands for?


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## mgparrish

solematestore said:


> What do you mean be voids? What should I look at other brands for?


I can't comment on other brands as I don't do socks.

Some fabrics are "ribbed" and some areas are not easily transferred to laying there flat. When the sock is stretched when worn then the areas that the dye misses (voids) can be seen.


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## Riderz Ready

solematestore said:


> What do you mean be voids? What should I look at other brands for?


Have you ordered a pair to see what they are like in person or your interest based on pictures on web sites? 

As pointed out there will be voids when worn/stretched due to the ribbing. Many sock crushers are like t-shirt crushers. They talk a great game and show their products in the best of light. Ever wonder why in most cases socks are never shown up close being worn? Same with crushed shirts.

Before investing a lot of time and money - order a pair of socks and judge for yourself the quality.


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## solematestore

You mean order one pair from a well known store that makes 
custom elites


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## selanac

No he means pick up a pair of Polyester thin socks with no ribs to practice on. I bought a pack of 6 from wal-mart for practice.


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## headfirst

selanac said:


> No he means pick up a pair of Polyester thin socks with no ribs to practice on. I bought a pack of 6 from wal-mart for practice.


Why would you practice on a sock that isn't as close to identical as possible to the end product?

A4 makes a sock with the same fiber blend as the Nike Elite and they're something like $15/dozen pairs.


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## selanac

So he gets the process down. $3 to $4 is a lot less than $15.


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## Riderz Ready

We tried 10-15 different types/brands of socks. Practicing on a sock that you are not going to use is a waste of time and money. They all print differently. 

The smooth, referred to as liner socks, print perfectly. Unfortunatly they are very thin. Not suitable for the average person. What you can do is wear them over your regular socks as they are thin enough they do not increase the need for larger shoe.

My recommendation was simple - before going out and spending money based on pics a vendor post on a web site - order a pair and see for your self what they look like being worn.


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## selanac

If he's not going to practice he's going to waste a bunch of money trying to get the process down first. 

The elites start at $9.50 and go up from there, per pair. 

At least buy a thick pair of polyester socks or use smaller/narrow wrap arounds and turn them inside out if you can.


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## solematestore

Where can I get Elites for $9.50?

I am pretty confused of what you guys mean when you 
say "wrap around"? All you have to do is press on on side of the sock and 
then press on the other?


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## splathead

When I'm testing on expensive items, I buy one and cut it up in pieces. Do the same with the Elites. Buy a pair, test on 1 sock, if you have to test more, cut the other one up in pieces.


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## solematestore

Do you make custom elites?
Is it hard putting the images on the socks?
Which printer and heat press do you use?


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## selanac

You've already asked what printer and several times people have answered. 

Sounds like you're fishing for information.

After they answer which printer, you're going to ask, what ink. Why are you fishing for everyones ink type? 

Just to answer one last time. We use Epson 7010 with Sawgrass inks. We also use Sublimation paper. 

If you want specific brands, buy the stuff we mention and try it. If it doesn't work call the vendors you bought it from and ask for advice.


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## solematestore

I do not mean to "fish" for info. I am just a little concerned about 
the difficulty in getting the image on the socks. You recommend the 
first time I try it to use a different pair of socks right?
I will probably use Cobra inks ink, is with an epson 7010, is that okay?


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## selanac

You can't have a problem if you haven't tried it.

If you have upload a picture so we could see.


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## solematestore

What ink do you order from Sawgrass?
Can you order online, by phone, or at a store?
Is it expensive compared to all the other vendors?
Is it the best quality?


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## selanac

Just like I said you would do.


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## headfirst

solematestore said:


> I do not mean to "fish" for info. I am just a little concerned about
> the difficulty in getting the image on the socks. You recommend the
> first time I try it to use a different pair of socks right?
> I will probably use Cobra inks ink, is with an epson 7010, is that okay?


Not to be a jerk, but if it was easy everyone would do it. The items your looking for are usually made by professional printers who know what they're doing. 

Want to become a professional printer? Put the leg work in. Go to one of the preferred vendors here and buy a sublimation setup. It's going to cost money, it's going to take time. You're going to make mistakes doing it. 

Don't want to deal with all that? Just buy your printing from one of the wholesale sublimation printers on this website.


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## solematestore

Is making custom elite socks a reliable business?
I am not looking to make over $1000 each month but 
does anyone have a custom elite socks business? How is it going?
Do you think people will stop buying custom elites/elite socks will 
get out of fashioned?


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## DonnieTheBear

I have a printer. It's an HP Photosmart C4795 Inkjet Printer.
Can I buy dye sublimation ink cartridges and release paper to print my designs and heat press Nike Elite Socks with a 15" x 15" Sublimation Heat Transfer Press Machine - Clamshell - Model PRO-3804X ?

Please email me at: [email protected]


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## binki

You can get everything right here including support: Sublimation Supplies & Products, Heat Transfer Systems, Sublimation Inks, Heat Press Machines, Allover T-Shirt Printing - Order Online! - DyeTrans.com 

Press 395F at 60 seconds and you are all set.


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## titans20

For the Epson WF7010, will I need a color management program? I tried printing for the first time and it's pretty much black and white. I bought different cartridges with sublimination ink already in them but do I need something else? I read that a color management program helps but do not want to spend the money if it is not necessary. Anyone else have this problem?


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## mgparrish

titans20 said:


> For the Epson WF7010, will I need a color management program? I tried printing for the first time and it's pretty much black and white. I bought different cartridges with sublimination ink already in them but do I need something else? I read that a color management program helps but do not want to spend the money if it is not necessary. Anyone else have this problem?


What inks did you buy? You need an ICC/ICM profile to correct sublimation colors, that should come from wherever you bought your inks.


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## Bidhalos00

I have never tried


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## Bidhalos00

How did it work out?


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## DPendable

solematestore said:


> Is making custom elite socks a reliable business?
> I am not looking to make over $1000 each month but
> does anyone have a custom elite socks business? How is it going?
> Do you think people will stop buying custom elites/elite socks will
> get out of fashioned?


So how did this work out for you?

We print socks but do not print Elites. You have to know your market and if they will only buy elites. our market doesn't care what sock they wear but is more concerned with the design. The same goes for the people we print wholesale to. They didn't want to buy printers and equipment so they just buy from us.

we run a Epson 4800 with refill carts. we use beaver texprint XPHR roll paper and sawgrass inks. we use 2 vesta 16x20 presses. I'm a corel guy but also run all of the adobe products.

let me know if you have any questions about our printing process (not our equipment since I just covered that) as I would be fine telling you. if you want to see some product just visit our site www.sockssockssocks.com I have the socks shown on mannequin feet to show how they will looked stretched. 

Good luck.


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## selanac

Pretty old thread.


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## ekozy39

That was a train wreck. Haha


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## selanac

Dependable, socks look great, and love the name of the website.


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## DPendable

selanac said:


> Dependable, socks look great, and love the name of the website.


Thank you. I felt it was simple enough to remember and type. It does make you slow down and remember to put the double S's though. 

We are adding new designs every few days. Let us know if there is something you need or if you have questions. 

Thanks again.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using T-Shirt Forums


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