# Help, dreams may be crushed



## Ides of March (Oct 12, 2011)

I came up with my business name a year ago. It was completely original, un influenced by any other business name and my own creation. At the time, I searched to make sure there was no other business taking the name and luckily there wasnt. Im so close to releasign my first line only to find that a company in a different country shares the same name and also sells tshirts for the motocross scene, whereas I sell for a more urban/streetwear scene. Their company says they were established 2005 but there are no trademarks filed in the states and I cant find any other info on them etc. Am I screwed after all this planning or can I still go forward, file a trademark, and sell my shirts?


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## shayne0307 (May 18, 2011)

Ides of March said:


> I came up with my business name a year ago. It was completely original, un influenced by any other business name and my own creation. At the time, I searched to make sure there was no other business taking the name and luckily there wasnt. Im so close to releasign my first line only to find that a company in a different country shares the same name and also sells tshirts for the motocross scene, whereas I sell for a more urban/streetwear scene. Their company says they were established 2005 but there are no trademarks filed in the states and I cant find any other info on them etc. Am I screwed after all this planning or can I still go forward, file a trademark, and sell my shirts?


If this company is not trademarked/copyrite here in the states, you should be fine.


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## kimura-mma (Jul 26, 2008)

You can research to see if they have an international trademark registration. But generally, trademarks are only valid in the jurisdiction it is registered. So if there is no trademark registration in the US, you shouldn't have any problems using the name, selling shirts or getting your own trademark in the US. But to be sure, it may be worth your time to consult an attorney. Most will offer a free consult to answer a few startup questions.


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## treefox2118 (Sep 23, 2010)

If your dreams rely on a name, you're going to get crushed.

My brand name has changed 8 times in 20 years. No one cares, they come to buy because of quality not the name.

Don't use a name someone else is using, trademark or not.

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## shayne0307 (May 18, 2011)

treefox2118 said:


> If your dreams rely on a name, you're going to get crushed.
> 
> My brand name has changed 8 times in 20 years. No one cares, they come to buy because of quality not the name.
> 
> ...


 Okay Brian, I do understand what you are saying. In fact, I thought the same thing when I first read the post; however, after thinking about it I concluded (and I maybe totally off), but if someone picked up a name and created a logo and did all the pre-business setup using this logo and name and now you are ready to go live and find out that all the money, and time spent is now at a loss, can be disheartening.....I do not know if that is the situation here, but I could see it happening. I would have made sense to secure the name prior to spending any money on anything, but we don't always do things in the order that we should.....


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## kimura-mma (Jul 26, 2008)

In the US, first use of the mark in commerce is what defines ownership. So you can't really secure a trademark during the preparation phase and not spending some money. As long as you've done all the proper research to make sure the name is not in use, you can go ahead and use the mark. Once you've used it - and can prove it - that's the first real step towards securing a trademark. Of course, you can still apply for a trademark as an intent-to-use, but the registration process cannot be completed without proof of use in commerce.


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## kimura-mma (Jul 26, 2008)

treefox2118 said:


> Don't use a name someone else is using, trademark or not.


I understand the spirit of what you're saying. But the reason trademarks are only valid in the registered jurisdiction is not to limit the use of brand names in different markets. It would be impossible to search every country to see if a name is in use. What if the name is used in a different language halfway around the world, you would still advise against using it?


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## treefox2118 (Sep 23, 2010)

A Trademark is irrelevant if another company is operating in the exact same market as the second.

The first person to get to market and build brand recognition may not sue the second, but they're already in the game.

Names are easy to change. Yes, it can cost money and time to draft up a new logo, but it's not the end of the world.

A company is not just its name, usually. A company is defined by the product or service they offer.


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## treefox2118 (Sep 23, 2010)

I should also mention that in the 20+ years I've been in business, I have never once gotten a trademark. I've never placed copyright protection on a single design I've made -- all of it is released to the public domain immediately.

I make money by working, not by using some outdated antiquated law to keep competitors out of the market. I want competition, it makes me better.


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## Ides of March (Oct 12, 2011)

Hey thanks for all your answers. The thing is I did the research when I created the name and found nothing. As far as I'm concerned I was the only person who had the name. It was only recently I came across this other name while messing with my seo. I love the name and don't want to change it as I think I can take it far. Having to change your name a bunch of times doesn't seem like a good business move and I'm not interested in doing that.


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## Ides of March (Oct 12, 2011)

The name I chose is directly linked to the philosophy of the brand so changing it to something that's just as impactful isn't easy. Imagine if Johnny cupcakes had to change the name for example. It's easier said than done if you find a truly unique, simple, memorable name.


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## kimura-mma (Jul 26, 2008)

treefox2118 said:


> A Trademark is irrelevant if another company is operating in the exact same market as the second.


I disagree. When two companies are operating in the same market with the same name is exactly when a trademark is relevant. Because one will be able to prove ownership and potentially get exclusive use of the mark. The trademark registration is not the only determining factor. But it's certainly relevant.


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## royster13 (Aug 14, 2007)

I have been selling shirts for 35+ year and have never sold a shirt with a brand on it or registered a Trade Mark.....When I buy a shirt, I buy great designs and can not remember the last time I bought a shirt with Trade Mark on it.....IMO you can make good money selling shirts with just great designs....


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## kimura-mma (Jul 26, 2008)

royster13 said:


> When I buy a shirt, I buy great designs and can not remember the last time I bought a shirt with Trade Mark on it.....IMO you can make good money selling shirts with just great designs....


The trademark may not have been printed on the front of the shirt, but it was probably somewhere on the shirt. It may not have value to you as the consumer, but it does have value to the brand. Trademark value has many levels. Just look at all the people looking for licensed goods.


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## mumzie (May 9, 2008)

I have a client who had an awesome brand, and she spent thousands to develop it. Once it really got traction, she got a cease & desist letter from a canadian company using the same brand name. She.met with her attorney, and ended uo changing her brand and her artwork. I personally thought she.should have only changed attorneys.

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## Riderz Ready (Sep 18, 2008)

treefox2118 said:


> I should also mention that in the 20+ years I've been in business, I have never once gotten a trademark. I've never placed copyright protection on a single design I've made -- all of it is released to the public domain immediately.
> 
> I make money by working, not by using some outdated antiquated law to keep competitors out of the market. I want competition, it makes me better.


Great response - I as you have never wasted a moment of energy worry about copyrights, trademarks, etc. So many people start out worrying about everything but the one thing that matters - how am I going to sell/market my designs.

If you are fortunate to be around long enough people will steal a design or two. A copyright or trademark will not change that. As important the OP pointed out a critical fact that all should take note of - no matter how unique you think your name, design, slogan may be it most likely is not that original at all.


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## kimura-mma (Jul 26, 2008)

treefox2118 said:


> I should also mention that in the 20+ years I've been in business, I have never once gotten a trademark. I've never placed copyright protection on a single design I've made


If you sold a product under a brand name, you have a common law trademark. If you have created a design and printed it on a t-shirt, you have a copyright. You may have never registered them or tried to protect them or tried to prevent anyone else from using them, but you do have them. And if you made money, they have been valuable to you.

Don't get me wrong, having great designs, sales and marketing will always be better than worrying about trademarks and copyrights. But trademarks and copyrights do have their value.



treefox2118 said:


> all of it is released to the public domain immediately.


What exactly do you do to release your work to the public domain?


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## ChristopherG (Apr 24, 2013)

Riderz Ready said:


> Great response - I as you have never wasted a moment of energy worry about copyrights, trademarks, etc. So many people start out worrying about everything but the one thing that matters - how am I going to sell/market my designs.
> 
> If you are fortunate to be around long enough people will steal a design or two. A copyright or trademark will not change that. As important the OP pointed out a critical fact that all should take note of - no matter how unique you think your name, design, slogan may be it most likely is not that original at all.


You make it sound like there's too many things to worry about, while in fact it's only about trademarking your company name and/or logo at least in the country where you're based.

I can see why you wouldn't need to copyright your designs (since they are automatically copyrighted to you anyway), but trademarking your company name and logo could potentially save you from a lot of unnecessary trouble. People connect with a brand far more than you give it credit, you know.


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## kimura-mma (Jul 26, 2008)

ChristopherG said:


> You make it sound like there's too many things to worry about, while in fact it's only about trademarking your company name and/or logo at least in the country where you're based.
> 
> I can see why you wouldn't need to copyright your designs (since they are automatically copyrighted to you anyway), but trademarking your company name and logo could potentially save you from a lot of unnecessary trouble. People connect with a brand far more than you give it credit, you know.


A consumer's connection with a brand and a brand owner's obsession with making sure no one steals their logo are two separate issues.

No one is going to debate the value of branding. That is obviously important when launching a clothing line.

But many people take it to a new level where they want printers to sign non-disclosure agreements and are concerned about launching their website without a registered trademark, etc. These would be examples of worrying too much.

It is not a requirement to register a trademark or copyright to run a clothing line. Do they have value? Yes. Are they top priority? No.

If you can easily afford to trademark your brand right from the beginning, go right ahead. It's $325 in the US and you can file the application online. But for anyone on a tight budget, it's best to spend that money on production and marketing.

Again, I'm separating the difference between the value of a brand and design and the actual registering of the trademark and copyright. The use of the brand and design are very important. The legalities of registering have their time and place depending on the situation. Rarely are they priorities, though.


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## NetshirtSoftware (Jun 10, 2013)

It's always useful to hold the name of your business in .com and the country you operate in


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