# Review of 4 DTG printers



## Danmcn

*Print Wear Show (NBM) Long beach CA August 11-13 2011*​ 

Being a digital sign and fine arts printer based in Long Beach CA I have been facing increasing pressure from a number of my clients to get in to the Direct To Garment Printing business and start making t-shirts, aprons, hoodies, jackets and other apparel for there businesses. As a result of this I have spent more than a little time recently reading up on the available equipment and processes available.

So when I found out about the show I went to get some questions answered and see first hand how the output of these printers stacked up. What an eye opener. Remember never believe the manufactures literature. I quickly realized that the only way to compare the output of the half dozen printers scattered around the show floor was to get each manufacture to make a print from one of my personal files. The same way you evaluate different paper printers. 

The file I chose was a fairly low resolution jpeg of a book cover from a photo I took in the Caribbean some years back with an intense purple to orange sunset color gradient as well as a hard line from the orange of the suns bright halo to the dark sea at the horizon, along with some dark orange text to check the sharpness and registration of the printer. It should be stated that although it apparently didn’t happen here the high resolution base image of the cover has a known history of tripping up RIPs. The image was always printed on a black T-shirt. 

Four of the six companies I approached about printing the image did so happily (maybe not so happily after they read this). The other two(Anajet and Kornit) refused for reasons which they didn’t wish to state, but looking at the output that they were giving away I could understand why they didn’t wish to get involved in either a subjective or technical evaluation of their print quality. 
The following is an evaluation of the four printers that I was able to get output from. While the thoughts on color quality are subjective they are not mine alone as I have shown the shirts a number of people and we have all agreed. The difference between the first and forth is so striking that I doubt that any one seeing them would disagree with the other two falling somewhere in the middle. 

*(4) – Brother*
_GT-782_
Oh brother! What a let down. If Anajet and Kornit had opted in to the review I have no doubt that this printer would have wound up sixth. 

First off the machine is a behemoth. If you don’t have a loading bay or a rollup garage door in your shop don’t even consider purchasing this machine as it doesn’t disassemble and will not come close to fitting through a 36 or even 40 inch door (the only larger printer is the Komit).

The print quality is abysmal. The print image is soft like it was ever so slightly out of focus. Contrast and brightness are nonexistent Dark garments come off the printer looking like they have already been washed twenty times. 

Brother doesn’t use a RIP in the classic sense, preferring to use a more mundane spooler to queue print jobs. This may account for some of the print quality issues. It is how ever extremely easy to use.

The final issue is the cost which is laughable you could two of any of the other printers in this revue and have enough money left over to almost buy a pretreater and a dryer. All in all not a good deal.


*(3) – M&R Printing*
*One Dot*
Based on a highly modified version the exceptional Epson 4800 Pro Stylist printer I was hoping for a much better outcome from Silk Screen industry leader M&R Printing. Alas it was not to be.

To be fair let it be said that the printer seamed to be having a print head problem. As a result of this the top half of my test print had a kind of speckling that didn’t allow me to fairly evaluate the gradient performance. The hard line between the sunset and the water was basically well defined with no splatter to either the light or dark side. The overall print quality was while sharp lacked any kind of punch showing a distinct lack of contrast. This maybe a result of poor Rip design and/or set up.

While apparently no worse than the Free Jet the One Dot’s single print platen and the print head problem destined this printer to third. 


*(2) - Omniprint*
*Free Jet*
Another Epson 4800 based printer. As stated above, this printer took second place mainly because of the print problems with the one dot. Speed and lack luster print quality was pretty much the same as the one dot’s.

The “proprietary” rip seamed to be easy to understand and user friendly but with the image again lacking any punch seamed to be poorly set up. The dual platen print surface added somewhat of the printers speed allowing for multiple prints before operator attention was needed.

In all a decent and hard working printer. If the cost and the print quality isn’t a big factor. 


*(1)– All American Manufacturing *
*NeoFlex*
Although the least expensive printer in the review the Epson 4800 based NeoFlex was far and away the best of the four printers reviewed. The image output is spectacular with color gamut, quality and image definition coming close to rivaling that of the stock Epson 4800 on high quality paper. It is obvious that the neo-print design team spent their time wisely working on the RIP color profiles and dark garment white under print density enhancement tables. They have truly have achieved a new level of DTG print quality.

Image setup also achieves new levels of simplicity with the RIP setup being almost a point and click operation.

The long platen will print three shirts at a time allowing print after print after print then repeat printing allowing for one person continuous operation of the pre-treater, printer and dryer. This decreases the work time from blank tee to finished product to about the as the faster single platen printers that need multiple people to do the same work to take advantage of the speed.

It should be noted that for a few thousand dollars more a second solvent ink printer can be purchased that can easily Be swapped on the printer platen for the fabric printer allowing the printing of CD’s, Plastic business cards, golf balls leather wallets and just about any other printable item allowing you to still make money in the winter when T-shirt orders dry up.


*After thought*
None of these printers except the big looser are bad machines and all have print quality and resolution at least equal to the average to good silk screen print. But when put next to the NeoFlex you have to wonder if silk screen quality is enough any longer? 

So after the show I am left with only these two questions. How well the shirts will stand up to repeated washing? 

The other one is weather the NeoFlex can really be considered as a short run replacement for silk screen printing or if It’s “over the top” photo real print image quality has accidently opened up a whole new nitch in the DTG industry?

I believe that only time and use can give us the answer to these questions

Before I close I would like to thank the four manufactures for putting up with my sometimes inane questions and allowing me to test their equipment and the other two for just putting up with me.

Daniel McNerney


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## 23spiderman

any chance you could upload your pics?


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## Nonnie 24

Very interesting research, however, did you have the prints all done on the same brand of shirt? NeoFlex usually uses a Korean imported shirt that is not available here and is a great advantage to them when printing photo images on black . . .not trying to put them down, I like their machine a lot. Just want to compare apples with apples only ;-)


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## Danmcn

To answer both questions I didn’t include pixs because they don’t show the differences in the print image quality. Which while subtle is quite noticeable when comparing them side by side. 
I used NeoFlex’s black blank and I don’t believe that the Tee’s material could be responsible for more than a very small part of the remarkable print quality displayed by the printer.


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## DAGuide

Danmcn said:


> I used NeoFlex’s black blank and I don’t believe that the Tee’s material could be responsible for more than a very small part of the remarkable print quality displayed by the printer.


I learned a long time ago that I believe stuff I see in person the most, but I listen to actually users to help minimize my mistakes and decrease the learning curve. Read what actual users have to say about how differences in shirts can make a dramatic difference in print quality - http://www.t-shirtforums.com/neoflex/t162238.html. 

This applies to any dtg printer (no matter the size, cost or inks) and has for a long time. Look at page 27 of this document that I wrote in 2007 - http://www.multirip.com/dtg101.pdf.

I am not trying to convince you not to purchase any specific printer or to not get into dtg printing at all. The printer needs to match your business model and it sounds like you are on your way through doing your research. Just remember there can be some benefits to listening to other dtg users.

Just my opinion and advice I have learned from over the years. Best wishes in the future,

Mark


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## 23spiderman

if your pics can't tell the story, then there isn't much of a story. and the shirt printed on can make a HUGE difference to the outcome.

i agree with you that the NeoFlex is above it's peers when judging the quality of the print so i wasn't surprised to see it ranked #1. the RIP they use makes all the difference. i'm surprised AnaJet turned you away. i would have liked to see how their mPower stood up to the others in terms of quality. we already know it's really fast.


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## DAGuide

23spiderman said:


> i'm surprised AnaJet turned you away. i would have liked to see how their mPower stood up to the others in terms of quality. we already know it's really fast.


I had two people at the Long Beach Show tell me that Anajet was only printing their own artwork because the new printers were prototypes and they wanted to do more work on them before printing other people's artwork. I think this is acceptable as they finished the final touches on their printer. Although I did see a picture of a print posted on this forum that did not look like the others ones that they were handing out. It might have been an issue of what time of day they asked Anajet to print their artwork because they were located at the front of the show.

Mark


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## Stitch-Up

23spiderman said:


> any chance you could upload your pics?


----------- ditto -----------

Pictures of the shirts would be great too


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## davitos

correct me if i am wrong but isnt the m&R called iDOt? and the Freejet 320 certainly is not a epson 4800 machine but an R1900.....


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## DAGuide

davitos said:


> correct me if i am wrong but isnt the m&R called iDOt? and the Freejet 320 certainly is not a epson 4800 machine but an R1900.....


At the Long Beach Show, FreeJet had two different size dtg printers in their booth - 13" wide and a 17" wide printer. The O.P. is probably referring to the larger printer in his review.

Mark


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## davitos

ah, cool. please post some more info about the 17" freejet printer then


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## DAGuide

Not sure if the O.P. has pictures, but I do not. You can read about it here - FreeJet 500.

Mark


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## TPrintDesigner

> *(4) – Brother*
> _GT-782_
> 
> The print quality is abysmal. The print image is soft like it was ever so slightly out of focus. Contrast and brightness are nonexistent Dark garments come off the printer looking like they have already been washed twenty times.


I've seen a few pictures of prints done by Brother at USA shows and they were pretty damn poor. One showed the sales guys wearing shirts that had a really washed out image on the back which is a crazy way to showcase your product.

You are right that the Brother does not use a RIP, it is better described as a print driver with a very basic colour boosting feature which is never going to get the best out of complex artwork, for that you need to know your way around PhotoShop. The salesmen at the show should be better educated.


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## loloxa

Although I'm an owner of a brother printer and some might think that I'm in defense mode, there is a couple of things that strike me about your comparisons. 

First and foremost like others have said, pictures are worth 1000 words, and they do show the subtle details of twice the dpi count, between printer brands or printer modes, that would help in posts like this instead of asking us for a leap of faith in your experience as a fine arts printer, which brings me to my second point, do you already have experience in textile printing? , specially in t-shirts? or you speak from a user/buyer point of view? machines look nice in a show they are another beast sitting in your shop. 

Third and last, have you evaluated the workflow of each machine? from pretreat to art prep and curing times? you don't talk about printing times, costs of ink and pretreat, yields of both, and many more facts that I understand you either have not shared in the review or have overlooked . 

In my opinion there is more to textile production than a higher dpi and machine size, although your final choice is a good one ( I think the Neo has great hardware going for it, but the community forming around it, is a bigger value) comments like "if silk screen is good enough any longer" show in my opinion a bit of lack of experience, Spot colors will never be possible with DTG and no matter how good printers become ink formulation we'll be always to blame/praise for the quality of the prints, there is a certain brightness that you just can't achieve with 4 colour process in DTG, although I would love anybody to prove me wrong.


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## allamerican-aeoon

If good print comes with shirts quality I do not mind to give all to show attendees to compare apple to apple. Problem is no other competitor will print on our shirts when they see the our label.
Next show please come ask blank shirts to ask competitors to print. I wish your luck. It will have little logo says sample because it is not fair for keep yourself or resell.
But highly believe shirts is not it at all. We were the leader of image before AA find this shirt.
I understand loser has to find the reason why. They will never said "yes my printer print quality is not good as winners". High DPI, Software, High tech electronic precision, best parts available, R&D never have been mentioned.
Bottom line, shirts is free to all with "sample" printed and will leave printing area empty.
Since everything has some hiccups. Discrimination: AA can stop without notice.
Thank you all.
I love fair and squire.
PS: I do not mind to sell this shirts to competitors, Just send AA a PO.


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## allamerican-aeoon

loloxa; Although I'm an owner of a brother printer and some might think that I'm in defense mode, there is a couple of things that strike me about your comparisons. 

I like that royalty. I wish all NeoFamily think same as you.

First and foremost like others have said, pictures are worth 1000 words, and they do show the subtle details of twice the dpi count, between printer brands or printer modes, that would help in posts like this instead of asking us for a leap of faith in your experience as a fine arts printer, which brings me to my second point, do you already have experience in textile printing? , specially in t-shirts? or you speak from a user/buyer point of view? machines look nice in a show they are another beast sitting in your shop. 

Good point. We all TSF members warn new comers.

Third and last, have you evaluated the workflow of each machine? from pretreat to art prep and curing times? you don't talk about printing times, costs of ink and pretreat, yields of both, and many more facts that I understand you either have not shared in the review or have overlooked . 

Did you done this 100% correctly before you bought Brother? I am sure there will be lots of debates.

In my opinion there is more to textile production than a higher dpi and machine size, although your final choice is a good one ( I think the Neo has great hardware going for it, but the community forming around it, is a bigger value) comments like "if silk screen is good enough any longer" show in my opinion a bit of lack of experience, Spot colors will never be possible with DTG and no matter how good printers become ink formulation we'll be always to blame/praise for the quality of the prints, there is a certain brightness that you just can't achieve with 4 colour process in DTG, although I would love anybody to prove me wrong.

No photograph is same as real. As same as there are no exact same thing on earth. However, winner is who is closest to real. Am I wrong? I love to send you a sample of print to you to compare with yours. Send art work to me, shirts is on your way. I promise.

Cheers, beers are on me, always!


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## loloxa

Pictures are valuable so posting them up is always good, let the prospective buyer decide how to look at them, also some skepticism never hurt anyone.

When J.Walker won the belt there was one thing lost in all the noise, He won the belt with your machine, but as sure as he won the belt I can Assure you that I can print a better tee with my machine than all the other brother submissions in fact I have yet to have a single print flake on repeated washes. So operator is also a big factor.

I like that you are confident about your product Peter but you take a lot of credit for things that humbly I think are beyond you, like ink formulation which plays a huge part, and the basis for your Neo ,the 4880, which is developed by Epson, so I don't know how to spread the karma points, maybe you are 80% or maybe 60% it is the sum of 3 good parts that make and awesome whole, so congrats for choosing wisely.

By the way I have samples of a shirt printed with the NEO and other inks, "NOT IMPRESSED" at all, that is why I make the point that hardware is not all, the NEO is a sum of its parts, luckily or unluckily brother doesn't have a choice, for better or worst they make it all, ink,software and hardware. 

If you wan't to PM I'll tell you the whole story about the neo sample I have.

by the way, Yes, color and detail accuracy are better with you RIP. happy? now don't say that we have no praise for you.


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## FatKat Printz

I can tell you that a picture doesn't do the justice the printer deserves. I don't think the OP needs to post anything because it was his artwork, his research and time and energy spent at the show.

This post was great because he held nothing back and gave his honest opinion. The NBM and ISS shows go on all year long. Do what Dan did and make your deciding factor. I can tell you that all the hoopla over DTG printers and samples are all personal opinions and bias. Dan, will do his own wash tests and do the research before making a purchase.

Guess what.. that's what you are suppose to do. Dan taking the time to provide this post should give everyone the incentive to go out and do your own research and quit relying on pictures, complaints and opinions. Ask other end users (off the forums), ask to visit end users shops, and do something for yourself. 

Being an end user, I can tell you where the quality, who the customer service winners and what I suggest you should do. You know what I worked my *** off to find them, I have been burned by several companies and learned my lessons on my own.

End user advice: times have changed, ink has changed, printers have changed, companies have changed. Go out there and do yourself a good life lesson and do your own research. It took me awhile to not depend on pictures and posts. I know who the true winners are and you know how. I went out and found them. 

The past is the past...move on and look ahead towards the future.


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## FatKat Printz

Nonnie 24 said:


> Very interesting research, however, did you have the prints all done on the same brand of shirt? NeoFlex usually uses a Korean imported shirt that is not available here and is a great advantage to them when printing photo images on black


This made me almost piss my pants.. Are you serious?? Ask Peter how much the shirt weighs? I did and you know what my answer was (I cleaned it up for the post) " I have no idea, I buy whats on sale".

At the Indy show when I was with AA, they were handed all sorts of sample shirts. The "Tigers" printed on them and to see how well they tested. It didn't matter what shirt, it printed like the "special shirts" Peter brings along. 

Yes, a shirt, proper pretreat and curing has importance with how well a shirt prints..

So ask yourself.. what's everyone's excuse for bad sample prints??
"Oh, we don't have Peter's shirts.. but buy our sucky printer for 50,000$ anyway"

Hogwash!! I am not favoring anybody but I have seen many sample prints and I can tell you that it doesn't matter what kind of shirt it is we all know 6.1oz 100% cotton print the best..so I am assuming most DTG distrubutors are using high quality shirts at shows. 

So what's the problem??


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## allamerican-aeoon

loloxa, I do not want to get into piss match with you in this forum. I buy your royalty to Brother more than anybody and I am so sure you are decent person with passion. I do respect that. Honestly I admire Brother has you as a user. I wish all NeoFamily has same attitude as you are. Which is they are with pride.
Since you said you can print better than Justin Walker. I hope you challenge me with printing contest which we will call "Battle Royale between Brother and NeoFlex" use same shirts 100%. Any conditions you call I am in. I wish there will be big bet. 
As I mentioned above post we all can collect worse sample ever made. You may have one of our worse (maybe not bluff(?) like poker game). I do to on Brothers bad and good one also (ture). I have been friend with Matt for years before even there is DTG who is in charge for Brother. We will choose him as a judge? or You?
I have no issue on selecting judge.
It is not my business, however Anajet rising is not a good news to Kornit and Brother if Anajet conquer all the issues. I am sure they will. Small companies and big companies biggest difference is small move fast. Big, need bigger profit to operate. Big, more source than small.
We will never know who has what card until last card is open. Who says Ana is the only one?
Again, all loser have great reason why they did not win. I hope you will stand for your address.
I am ready whenever you are.


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## loloxa

Peter did you read my post, carefully?

"Other brother submissions", I was appalled by the poor quality of the brother submissions, but I never said I could print better than any other printer User.

"color and detail accuracy are better with you RIP. happy? now don't say that we have no praise for you." I throw you a meaty bone and you think I'm chest pumping?

And my point about J.W. is that the machine did not print by itself, the operator is as important and sometimes more so than the hardware , art prep machine care, environment, ink choice, workflow ( I cannot repeat that word enough), a machine is just that, the use you squeeze out if it is the real value.

You say I'm a Brother loyalist, I think you have me confused with someone else, I have my beefs with brother but is also true that I'd have to cure dupont ink 3 to 4 times longer, my machine fits my MO perfectly, and I'm not threatened by other brands, the more you push the better for me when I change my equipment.

I would not get in a pissing match with you even if I drank the Potomac, Peter, you're stamina is way too much for me.


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## allamerican-aeoon

loloxa
I read your post again and find out you said "If you wan't to PM I'll tell you the whole story about the neo sample I have.". I have no secret about print quality and precision. I do not need to PM you. It can be public and it could be a good info to forum members. I prefer to be.
No hard feeling all were good in your post.
Thank you.
Damm again I did it. I always confuse L and R. Loyalist not Royalist. Sorry~


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## FatKat Printz

"Royalist".. you got DTG champion on the brain. Its ok, I am gonna use your shirt next year and print a transfer turn it in as DTG. I will win cause the shirt did all the work.


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## allamerican-aeoon

Fatkat,
Where do you get your stamina from? Potomac (by the way what is that)? I wish I have your English. Humor? Comedian TV? Do we know she is CPA shortly? Smart~
Well it is/was some exciting posts. This is best part of forum. I am not a woman (in case you don't know) but I love chit chat.
Cheers! beers are on me, always!


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## Don-ColDesi

Thanks for the review, I'm sorry you did not get by our booth to have a sample printed on the DTG Viper for comparison as well. It is very interesting to me that the iDot & NeoFlex which use the same print engine and RIP (Epson 4880 & Kothari RIP) were ranked 1 & 3 - when they should have been virtually the same given the same artwork and operators of equal skill levels. 

Peter, I will be by to pick up a case of pretreated black shirts before the show opens in Fort Worth. We want to make sure things are fair


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## allamerican-aeoon

Don-ColDesi said:


> Thanks for the review, I'm sorry you did not get by our booth to have a sample printed on the DTG Viper for comparison as well. It is very interesting to me that the iDot & NeoFlex which use the same print engine and RIP (Epson 4880 & Kothari RIP) were ranked 1 & 3 - when they should have been virtually the same given the same artwork and operators of equal skill levels.
> 
> Peter, I will be by to pick up a case of pretreated black shirts before the show opens in Fort Worth. We want to make sure things are fair


Don is right but machine made different way. Our concept of engineering and theirs are so much different animal. Yours are much more apart. I have been saying to you the plastic belt what viper is using will not help so much for precision. Precision is key of good print. Final is precision not software or any. How hardware understand and react and digest order of software and firmware. Since you are salesman you may not understand in depth. I understand that. Talk to Steve. Ask him why?
Shirts order: I need PO form you. I never joke on serious matter. I don't think you have a pull to purchase shirts from me. Ask your purchase Linda. I hope you will pursue this all the way before you may become laugh matter. I am ready whenever you are. If possible let's print same image too.
I saw your NBM booth and Mesa next to next with Vipers. Looks like it was one booth. Same inline. Duplicate. No one could missed yours/Mesa. Maybe sample hanging was not impressed? I don't know.
You too find excuses why lost. You claims you are pro. Good finder. 
Steve is very smart man. He probably thinking whole time about how he can deal with Anajet. I do trust his ability. He always have something in his sleeve. I found out your supplier will get away from Epson earlier than anybody. My antenna is high as CIA's haha.
Cheers! bourbons on me, always! since you are bourbon fan.


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## stix

I love the way the IDOT prints but why is it soooo painly slow and the NEOFlex isn't..Same print engine


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## allamerican-aeoon

stix said:


> I love the way the IDOT prints but why is it soooo painly slow and the NEOFlex isn't..Same print engine


Read my post above yours. thx. I edit couple minutes ago too.


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## Don-ColDesi

Peter, Thanks for the shirt & bourbon offer. And, thanks for thinking I am JUST a salesman, always best to fly below the radar.  Steve is a smart man - you are correct, becuase he is he works very closely with the worldwide DTG network to determine the best direction to take. Platens, software, ink, special features - all of us are involved in the finished product to some degree. 



> I found out your supplier will get away from Epson earlier than anybody.


Perhaps you did, but long after the decision was made and the parts of the puzzle were beginning to come together. 

Stix, Good question, the same print engine at the same resolution will print the same speed. Perhaps the iDot prints unidirectional to get best quality?


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## allamerican-aeoon

It make me laugh when you keep saying about platen. Always that is #1 priority in your book. While NeoFamily can make platens by them-self include skate board, golf ball, polo shirts -- endless. All. Why it is so important to you? Let's make precision first and go next. Bottom of totem pole issue can be discussed in later time. 
Now Steve option is double head attachment to against Anajet. As you told in TSF forum "M series ramping up production". Is it still right statement? I said Steve is wiser than your statement. Who was right? Anyway good to joust with you. Keep spear level and hold shield tight. Good luck. Have a nice weekend. 
What happen to shirts order? Went to see Linda yet? Same image print entire show? I believed there are some difference between pro and armature. Makes me think twice.


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## RedRider83

In my experience, the type/brand of garment makes a HUGE difference in print quality. For a fair test, you must use the same high-quality garments on each printer to gauge quality accurately. Second, good RIP software can make a mediocre printer produce some good quality prints. Judging by the samples I've received this year from multiple sources, the Melco has been the best, with NeoFlex coming in a close second. I'll be visiting some shows next year with my own shirts and art for the final test before I make the decision. Now I see mPower in the mix. However, the price tag on that machine is out of my budget. I would have to be absolutely stunned by this machine to even consider it.


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## allamerican-aeoon

Don.
One more questions I have. When is the last day of Viper since you will be away from Epson. I think it will be great info to TSF member.


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## allamerican-aeoon

RedRider83 said:


> In my experience, the type/brand of garment makes a HUGE difference in print quality. For a fair test, you must use the same high-quality garments on each printer to gauge quality accurately. Second, good RIP software can make a mediocre printer produce some good quality prints. Judging by the samples I've received this year from multiple sources, the Melco has been the best, with NeoFlex coming in a close second. I'll be visiting some shows next year with my own shirts and art for the final test before I make the decision. Now I see mPower in the mix. However, the price tag on that machine is out of my budget. I would have to be absolutely stunned by this machine to even consider it.


Doesn't Melco is Anajet or Poly print? Anyway Melco is not the Mfg.
Just change the label. Please some one kick in here. Don know all what is going on in this industry. I am not I just know NeoFlex. It is already too much.


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## Don-ColDesi

M-2 is in production for release very soon, future M-Series are still under development. Hope this answers your question. 

In regards to M-Series vs. Anajet - no real concern there - print speeds are very similar, print quality better with DX5 head as you know and price point not even close. It is good to see another major player moving away from Epson - it is sort of like a breakaway on bike racing - always easier (and often more successful) when their is more than one racer in the breakaway. 

Regarding shirts - Linda has a three day weekend - I'll have her issue the PO on Monday  

Have a great weekend - sharpen your spear and polish your shield!


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## Don-ColDesi

allamerican said:


> Don.
> One more questions I have. When is the last day of Viper since you will be away from Epson. I think it will be great info to TSF member.


Hasn't been determined, it will probably happen after you have ink for the 4900. There is still a high demand for the Viper and we are fully loaded with engines to build them as long as we see them as viable in the marketplace.


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## allamerican-aeoon

Don-ColDesi said:


> Hasn't been determined, it will probably happen after you have ink for the 4900. There is still a high demand for the Viper and we are fully loaded with engines to build them as long as we see them as viable in the marketplace.


I wish you tell the truth whole truth nothing but the truth. Not as ramping up statement you made. So here God helps you. . Record will never erased.
PS: I believe you are not in position to determined. Steve said that?


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## Justin Walker

Don-ColDesi said:


> ... the same print engine at the same resolution will print the same speed. Perhaps the iDot prints unidirectional to get best quality?


This is not exactly accurate, in my experience - I have seen first-hand that the speed of the print head carriage itself can be effected by other factors, and can vary even between the same print engine... I noticed it between RIP's, as well, when evaluating different RIPs on the Neoflex's and DreamJets, when I had two of each in my shop - both models were based on the 4880 Epson printer, and both models were sitting side-by-side when I did the comparison tests (same resolution, same artwork, etc).

Sadly, I don't have any video of the testing process, from when I was doing this.... However, the guys at AA are working on ANOTHER major advancement to THEIR VERSION of the Kothari RIP (going back to a much older conversation, each manufacturer customizes their RIP for their own machine so they don't ALL have the same RIP, even if it is made by the same company) which actually increases the speed of the print head movement ("Scan Speed")..... This is something that is still being fine-tuned and tested, but it comes on the heels of the release of the improved print head behavior ("Scan Width" issue that was pointed out awhile back), which also decreased production times slightly. The moral of the story, is that the actual physical speed of the printer can be affected more than people think, partly by the RIP but also from other factors that come into play.

As an after-thought, I will also point out that (as long as the substrate is at the correct distance from the print head) Bi-directional mode can produce results that are indistinguishable from a Uni-directional print, as long as the equipment hardware is very precise and repeatable; if a company has to print Uni to get "best quality", then it would cause me to wonder what is preventing them from printing at the same quality in Bi-directional mode? Uni is useful when the printed substrate is not perfectly flat, or when you can't get close enough to the substrate for Bi-D mode (uni is much more forgiving when it comes to gap between print head and substrate).


----------



## kevrokr

RedRider83 said:


> In my experience, the type/brand of garment makes a HUGE difference in print quality. For a fair test, you must use the same high-quality garments on each printer to gauge quality accurately.


Absolutely. It's the same as printing on paper. If you print on regular copier paper as opposed to a gloss inkjet paper, you will see a difference in quality.


----------



## Titchimp

Danmcn said:


> *(4) – Brother*
> _GT-782_
> Oh brother! What a let down. If Anajet and Kornit had opted in to the review I have no doubt that this printer would have wound up sixth.
> 
> First off the machine is a behemoth. If you don’t have a loading bay or a rollup garage door in your shop don’t even consider purchasing this machine as it doesn’t disassemble and will not come close to fitting through a 36 or even 40 inch door (the only larger printer is the Komit).
> 
> The print quality is abysmal. The print image is soft like it was ever so slightly out of focus. Contrast and brightness are nonexistent Dark garments come off the printer looking like they have already been washed twenty times.
> 
> Brother doesn’t use a RIP in the classic sense, preferring to use a more mundane spooler to queue print jobs. This may account for some of the print quality issues. It is how ever extremely easy to use.
> 
> The final issue is the cost which is laughable you could two of any of the other printers in this revue and have enough money left over to almost buy a pretreater and a dryer. All in all not a good deal.


Just to chip in.. i own no machine but did go for a demo of the 782 recently, when installing it can be tipped on it's side to get it through a normal door. 

Obviously i have not seen your artwork or prints but what we saw come off the machine looked pretty good. Will be comparing it soon with some other prints to see how it really stands up though.


----------



## allamerican-aeoon

Pitiful, sound like all are playing sad song. No one died. 
I say CHEERS! Salute!


----------



## allamerican-aeoon

Don-ColDesi said:


> Have a great weekend - sharpen your spear and polish your shield!


I said "Keep you spear level hold shield tight" is real joust. Shinny shield sharp spear will not do any good if you don't know how to use. Meet you in real joust field soon. Did you see the joust movie which no one who come from no where won King's jousting party and bring prize to the princess and end up marrying her? His armor and his shield was rusted and old. Show off will not do any good. Time to collect my ball and go home. Good night all!
Maybe this tell us our personality?
I wish I have your English. That's all.


----------



## TPrintDesigner

You only have to read the banter above this post to work out that the only people making real money out of DTG printing are the machine manufacturers and the consumable suppliers.

Buyer beware. Do your homework... Producing good saleable prints, quicker than anyone else is the key to success in this industry. I've spoken to over 200 owners in the last 4 years and the only machine that has consistant good feedback is the GT541. Quick ROI, built like a tank, good resale value, quick to print and RELIABLE.

Once you introduce white ink you enter a whole new playing field. You can no longer print 40-50 per hour.. The art prep, pre-treat, cure time, ink cost, print time, labour cost, waste cost, energy bills all take a massive chunk of your margin. Factor in waste prints, head cleans maintenance schedules and consumables and you start to get the picture. 

Unless you have a niche market prepared to pay top dollar (maybe like the fine art seller who started this post) you are in for an expensive shock.


----------



## TPrintDesigner

> _*(4) – Brother*
> GT-782
> The print quality is abysmal. The print image is soft like it was ever so slightly out of focus. Contrast and brightness are nonexistent Dark garments come off the printer looking like they have already been washed twenty times._


_


_Printed on a GT-782... Quickly


----------



## allamerican-aeoon

I cannot agree more than you said. I did not make money (amount, depend on individuals standard) as of now. R&D, After Service -----. As Daniel (thread starter) said NeoFlex was lowest price with best quality AA is not greedy company. At least try hard not to be. Be reasonable to stay alive. AA is small family company who try to build bigger Family with heart and soul. I know one thing so sure is all NeoFamily has pride and not regret what they choose for their future. 
Please study in TSF. You make a call not let anybody but you.


----------



## Rodney

Thanks for the review. I agree that pictures would have been helpful, but sometimes it's not an option.

I think it would be best to let the **users** of the machines post their comments and reviews about the machines here without the manufacturers/vendors feeling the need to jump in yet another thread to brag/boast/banter


----------



## Pvasquez

Great thread, too bad for me I didn't show the DreamJet, we have one that is 3 years old and still prints great.


----------



## allamerican-aeoon

Pablo,
Good try haha. Since you are distributor not a end user your post worth nothing but self advertising here. As same as I will put one of my best picture and says same or better thing than you did.
So how is your business? How come you are in California and have great machine and did not come to any Long Beach shows? I am so sure you know when and where is all shows going on. I never met you. We will do one day. 
By the way picture is not that impressed. Maybe camera or light. Dull look. Vibrant vivid is not there at all. Color is boring. Maybe art work? If you disagree send me art work to me please.
have a great weekend all. Chasing birds today beautiful day for golf.


----------



## Pvasquez

allamerican said:


> Pablo,
> Good try haha. Since you are distributor not a end user your post worth nothing but self advertising here. As same as I will put one of my best picture and says same or better thing than you did.
> So how is your business? How come you are in California and have great machine and did not come to any Long Beach shows? I am so sure you know when and where is all shows going on. I never met you. We will do one day.
> By the way picture is not that impressed. Maybe camera or light. Dull look. Vibrant vivid is not there at all. Color is boring. Maybe art work? If you disagree send me art work to me please.
> have a great weekend all. Chasing birds today beautiful day for golf.


It's a phone pic, hey there's no info on that other than a name, while your out golfing I'm out Shark Fishing


----------



## TPrintDesigner

Pvasquez said:


> I'm out Shark Fishing


*sarcasm mode on* You bet you were.. What a quote.. Straight from the horses mouth


----------



## JohnL

loloxa said:


> First and foremost like others have said, pictures are worth 1000 words, and they do show the subtle details of twice the dpi count, between printer brands or printer modes, that would help in posts like this instead of asking us for a leap of faith in your experience as a fine arts printer, which brings me to my second point, do you already have experience in textile printing? , specially in t-shirts? or you speak from a user/buyer point of view? machines look nice in a show they are another beast sitting in your shop.


Pictures are a great resource but from experience if you do not have the proper equipment a regular digital camera will not pick up the deficiencies in a print. It will actually make poor prints look better and great prints look mediocre.

Ask what type of camera/lense Rodney used to take pictures of the DTG Battle Royal entries. I don't know what he used but i can almost guarantee it wasn't a point and shoot digital camera. If i'm not mistaken he has some background in photography as well.


----------



## WholesalePrint

I really don't want to speak for other DTG printers BUT unless your operate one day in and day out everyday I don't think ANYONE is qualified to disregard ANY printer. THEY ALL have their strengths. Shoot I have seen some prints off the Veloci-jet look way beyond what I expected and its on;y a Direct-jet in disguise (jmo). There is a quite a few smaller units I personally like. We can only vouch for ours and educate potential recipients of how OURS works. I can say we have gotten quite a few people who now prefer DTG over Screen printing or can't tell the difference. Please excuse the blurry images, I suck at taking photos lol. I love DTG so much I'll be at Atlanta in september just to be there. Considering I have over a decade of design experience it does help to create a shirt that will look right off the machine. This is evident when I designed Street thug Tee. PRE-PRESS and Machine Operator know how is CRUCIAL!!!!!


----------



## Stitch-Up

Thanks for sharing  Love the Street Thug design.


----------



## allamerican-aeoon

Bruce Willis brother? Is that you? We shall meet in ATL! For Cheers!


----------



## WholesalePrint

Yes peter I'll see you there. It's always good talkin you at shows, you have good personality, I give you that. It's always good seeing you , DA, Don, Mark, Brian and the rest. Shows are great to see how people are progressing.


----------



## FatKat Printz

WholesalePrint said:


> Shows are great to see how people are progressing.


Exactly my point, like I mentioned before Dan did a great job with his summary of the printers. He did the foot work and research. I said before this article should inspire people to go out and do the same. 

Understandable the shows may not be close enough for people, but its not that hard to send in your artwork to any of the distrubutors and have them print it for you. 

Props to Dan again  best of luck to you in your purchase. I am DTG end user and if you ever want to chat, feel free to PM me.


----------



## allamerican-aeoon

Angel,
Thank you. Make sure bring some of your art work to all your budies! Haha. 
I know you well enough as a wise politician. No enemy not too close friend in business field. Am I right? Bruce Willies who I know is little different. . Joke don't ever be like him too many shootings.


----------



## allamerican-aeoon

Don-ColDesi said:


> M-2 is in production for release very soon, future M-Series are still under development. Hope this answers your question.
> 
> In regards to M-Series vs. Anajet - no real concern there - print speeds are very similar, print quality better with DX5 head as you know and price point not even close. It is good to see another major player moving away from Epson - it is sort of like a breakaway on bike racing - always easier (and often more successful) when their is more than one racer in the breakaway.
> 
> Regarding shirts - Linda has a three day weekend - I'll have her issue the PO on Monday
> 
> Have a great weekend - sharpen your spear and polish your shield!


Good morning to you Don,
In your other post about month ago "M2 is ramping up production" was not true statement according to above post.
Your PO of shirts by Monday never arrived. Did you see Linda for PO? She had you not to? I thought you will have her issue PO. I am glad you did not say which Monday. 
Anyway all noises about shirt choice was nothing but a noise. No one asked me sample and no one send us a PO. Include NeoFamily who will have DC. All talks only and I think I am too sometimes but I try so hard not to have conflict on my posts.
Irene passed us without big scare left. My best wish to all. Thanks for sending Irene to our way Don.
Cheers! beers are on me always.


----------



## Don-ColDesi

Peter,

I would never wish harm on anyone, especially from a hurricane. I'm glad to hear everyone here seemed to come through the ordeal well. The earthquake and hurricane didn't knock over the bottle of bourbon, did they? 

Looking forward to seeing you in Hotlanta!


----------



## allamerican-aeoon

Don, Don, Done
I am glad you avoid my points.
Steve did not report to you with the picture. He informed to you. You cannot have Linda to issue the PO for magic shirts. She would not believe. Scott also.
Back to back was not fun at all. Except to Eagles, Sixers and Phillies. 
Your bourbon is safe. I cannot wait to treat you with best bourbon on earth.
Cheers!


----------



## StoneEyes

I feel this was a great write up actually. Someone posted their opinion in quite a professional manner, and I found it to informative. Pictures would have been nice yes, but I think the description pointed out the persons areas of interest and what they felt was important to them.

I do feel that the comment on the tshirt it was placed on will have a slight impact on the completed image as a whole, however as I noted previously in past posts. The evolution of DTG's are in place, obvious by the new machines coming out. This is a good thing, 

So let's truly look at the main focus of the posting. Maybe I'm mistaken but the post was a users review of the quality of print done by various DTG Brands. The user felt overall the image that met his needs was the neoflex. There was nothing that I read that said speed or tshirt brand was of overall importance. My question to the multiple vendors would be if you know potential customers are going to approach your booth to have their image printed. Why would a substandard tshirt be used to exhibt your machines true capability. Ok I admit periodically I catch myself debating certain facets and making points about quality of prints but let's place are cards on the table here and call an apple an apple and not a pear please. 

If your at a show displaying your gear you are not going to bring about a low end gear if you know it will present a sub-standard image. That goes against best business practice of a return on investment. If you do take "cheap" tshirts to print on how then can you argue the point if the quality of the graphic is not up to the customers standard? That's like complaining a nascar beat you at a car race you knew you were going to at Daytona and you knowlingly brought a hugo. The industry is evolving -and competition is good but please let's not loose focus on what's good for the customer and the industry. Evolving technologies and quality prints. Just my opinion.


----------



## kevrokr

When we decide which shirts we are going to use at a tradeshow, we tend to use a shirt that is readily available to all of our potential customers so that they get a product that they are familiar with. I have printed on many different shirts that have different weights and color depths. Some are better than others because they have less fibrilation, and others have deeper black dyes that are used. But, for us, getting a shirt that a potential customer will probably not use because of price or accessibility really isn't showing them what kind of results they should expect.


----------



## StoneEyes

kevrokr said:


> But, for us, getting a shirt that a potential customer will probably not use because of price or accessibility really isn't showing them what kind of results they should expect.


Thank you for your post, and I truly understand your response regarding accessibilty etc regarding that specific brand. 

I do want to point out though as I did address the fact that I understand not all t-shirts are alike and yes some do take a print better then others. 

There are other brands that carry a good print, I believe the area I was trying to address is the print quality itself with a caveat of the secondary point being the shirt. What I am alluding to without removing from the orginal topic of the written review was that the poster felt the image was better captured by one dtg vice the others. 

If I did not convey that then let me digress. I do believe my comment regarding the yhugo distracted those automobile fanciers 

So in essence, a vendor will come to display his wares with what works best in their environment.

I do not feel however that material will have such a dramatic impact on the overall outcome of the image if the printer is not capturing the nuances or granularities of the graphic be it mist, flames, smoke, vapors etc.

So I will toss this out there, to the Admin and forum members and various vendors that may be interested. This is not about bragging rights or anything like that competition ended. This is an opportunity to grow as a whole community in understanding the various aspects of DTG printing. 

It will take the approval of Rodney, and the true cooperation of the various vendors for this project. This will be an excellent way to understand the facets of RIP software and how images are printed as a whole community. 

My proposal is as such;

1.) At the next ISS show or community show where the majority, if not all vendors will be in attendance. Peter provide to the vendors who wish to participate in this excercise 2 Black T-Shirt Blanks as used by them. 

2.) I will provide 2 detailed images to Rodney the day of the show. These will be saved to a 15 x 15 size or other size accordingly at the 300 DPI level to ensure all participants can print the images on the shirts. 

3.) Rodney will collect all completed t-shirts and provide their images to the community. The vendors in turn can provide the community with details of the print. 

Here is an opportunity for the community to grow as a whole. 

It will allow everyone to review their rip capabilities. Remember this isnt about the best printer, that contest ended and so went the bragging rights. This is about educating and helping the community as a whole. 

If I am out of context here please excuse me Rodney, but I do think this will be fair, unbiased, opportunity and is probably an ideal way to truly see and understand the different facets of DTG printing like, Ink Control, Rip, and the different ways ink is dispersed. If everyone participating has the same shirt, pretreats it there way, and prints the same images.. Wow thats true comraderie to bettering the community and advancing the DTG capability as a whole. If that can be accomplished in 1 day, imagine what else can be done. 

R/S
StoneEyes


----------



## Stitch-Up

I've attended the last 2 FESPA shows in Europe & All American have used the freely available Anvil t-shirt to demonstrate the NeoFlex. The WoW factor is still definately there.

I just purchased a stack of Anvil t-shirts.


----------



## StoneEyes

Somewhat surprised by therefore lack of continuous dialog since my proposal. 

I thought DTG vendors would be happy to step up and assist the masses on understanding how their rip package works and its strengths and how their software is understood by the hardware in ink displacement etc.

You have the same shirt with the same images being printed up via your printer. Figured everyone would be falling over each other to help the community as a whole???
A holr


----------



## allamerican-aeoon

StoneEyes said:


> Somewhat surprised by therefore lack of continuous dialog since my proposal.
> 
> I thought DTG vendors would be happy to step up and assist the masses on understanding how their rip package works and its strengths and how their software is understood by the hardware in ink displacement etc.
> 
> You have the same shirt with the same images being printed up via your printer. Figured everyone would be falling over each other to help the community as a whole???
> A holr


StoneEyes,
You are party killer . I want to see you fight heavy weight boxing champion. Will you for me?


----------



## kevrokr

StoneEyes said:


> Somewhat surprised by therefore lack of continuous dialog since my proposal.
> 
> I thought DTG vendors would be happy to step up and assist the masses on understanding how their rip package works and its strengths and how their software is understood by the hardware in ink displacement etc.
> 
> You have the same shirt with the same images being printed up via your printer. Figured everyone would be falling over each other to help the community as a whole???
> A holr


I will be more than willing to work with you and show you ALL of the features of our machines at our facility, or at any of the following tradeshows:

SGIA Expo New Orleans (our booth or the DAPZ), October 19-21, 2011

ISS Long Beach Jan 20-22, 2012

ISS Atlantic City March 11-13, 2012

ISS Orlando February 24-26, 2012

NBM Dallas May 10-12, 2012

NBM Indianapolis June 21-23, 2012

NBM Long Beach August 16-18

Please feel free to bring any pretreated shirts and any artwork you would like to see printed.


----------



## FatKat Printz

StoneEyes said:


> Wow thats true comraderie to bettering the community and advancing the DTG capability as a whole. If that can be accomplished in 1 day, imagine what else can be done.


As much as this sounds like a good idea.. the OP stated he went to many vendors and some did not want to participate for their own reasons. Its not that hard to walk booth to booth and get a sample shirt done or even pick one up. Everyone has their ideas of what is good and what is bad. 
This needs to be an individual research project. 
Educating the DTG community is what this forum is about. 

Many people that I have met at shows, never heard of TSF and shake their head as in "I don't really care" cause of many drama posts. A lot of times these post become back and forth of he said, she said.

I have seen Anvil at AA booth, I have seen Port and Company at Anajet booth.. Gildan's here and there... M&O.. they are t-shirts and their are preferences for everyone. 

Choosing a new DTG printer should be the individuals own research and preference. The "Product of the Year" has been plagued with problems and on the flip side has been a success to some. So its a chance you have to take and you have to look who is standing behind the printer. 

Are you going to get proper service and support?
Are you going to get your printer fixed when its down?
Are you going to optimize the printer for your business?
Are you going to get properly trained? 
Are you going to make money? 
What is the company going to do for you AFTER your warranty is up?

*The printer is more than a sample t-shirt.*​


----------



## StoneEyes

FatKat Printz said:


> *As much as this sounds like a good idea.. the OP stated he went to many vendors and some did not want to participate for their own reasons.
> This needs to be an individual research project.
> Educating the DTG community is what this forum is about.*


I agree education is the key to various facets. Yes as noted throughout this thread the OP stated his personnel points of view. Which understandably was countered, which developed into a caveat of the original posting. Which pertained to the type of shirt used. 

Hence my suggestion to help those that are new, just starting out, or on the fence about becoming involved. It provides insight into a higher level of understanding that new users/owners can understand the complexities of the DTG environment.



FatKat Printz said:


> *Many people that I have met at shows, never heard of TSF and shake their head as in "I don't really care" cause of many drama posts. A lot of times these post become back and forth of he said, she said.*


To an extent I would agree about not hearing about TSF. I was oblivious to it (TSF) until I narrowed my search for information and happened upon it after using google. TSF is a great place to obtain information, seek assistance, and share knowledge as well as debate different different points of view. 

That is why in my proposal I asked that when the pictures of the prints are posted the vendors could provide feedback about their print. Several statements were made regarding how a shirt can impact the output and alluded to it being a cause as to why the OP made his assessment. 

So to level the field and avoid confusion into the depth of DTG printing allow a true comparison of ink dispersion, rip software, ink, heat temps, pretreatment per best business practice of the specific vendors. This is not intended to be a Who prints the best as I noted previously. This is about an analysis of systems it's strengths, weaknesses. The vendors have the floor, to educate the community on its product. Everyone walks away a winner in my opinion. 

This is a gathering in the gym if you choose to look at it that way. The educators have the floor, the class (i.e. the TSF forumites) have the benches. Every vendor can participate if they choose, 1 brand of shirt, 2 unique images, and 2 individual prints done there way. Each vendor is like a professor and their break down of the print is the lesson of the day. 



FatKat Printz said:


> *have seen Anvil at AA booth, I have seen Port and Company at Anajet booth.. Gildan's here and there... M&O.. they are t-shirts and their are preferences for everyone. *


Yes and that is why I referenced using one brand, to avoid any confusion in the breakdown of how different DTG's operate and how software and hardware interact. I truly think this would be like a TSF University course, and everyone benefits from it through he sharing of knowledge.




FatKat Printz said:


> * a new DTG printer should be the individuals own research and preference. The "Product of the Year" has been plagued with problems and on the flip side has been a success to some. So its a chance you have to take and you have to look who is standing behind the printer. *


Yes and No, I would assess. The quest for knowledge is is an individuals choice I agree, however to deny the end user with material is a disservice. Not all people can attend functions, shows, or things of that nature. Should that preclude them from information? I do not think so. 

Since TSF is a big part of this community online, I think it would be a *huge* asset to anyone looking to add information to their bookshelf for reference material. Especially if they do not have the means to attend. 



FatKat Printz said:


> *Are you going to get proper service and support?
> Are you going to get your printer fixed when its down?
> Are you going to optimize the printer for your business?
> Are you going to get properly trained?
> Are you going to make money?
> What is the company going to do for you AFTER your warranty is up?*


All valid points but is not a facet of the talking point of this thread in my opinion. The talking point was a selection made based off of an image provided by the OP, and how the apparel had an impact on the end result. 

The proposal I offered is to assist the community with a good understanding of what each system does. When you have 1 brand of shirt, with 2 unique images, it negates the what if's in essence and allows the vendors to educate new and possible old. 

The proposal I offered is no different then anyone person going to each and every booth at a show doing it themselves and then posting the results which is how we came to this posting on on this thread. 



FatKat Printz said:


> *The printer is more than a sample t-shirt.*​


I agree whole heartedly, there are other issues to address within the DTG world, however an entry point into the DTG is understanding what is a DTG, how does it operate, what makes it operate, what is the end product, how are images translated to binary data to be feed through a processor to be received by a printer. 

All relevant to the current posting and all answered through a group participation. I would like to stress though that proposal isn't about bragging rights, or ego. It's about benefiting the community as a whole. When your masses are educated your move to the next level, regardless of environment. It is the process of evolution, we see that occurring now with the pending release of new models. That is a good thing in my opinion.


----------



## StoneEyes

kevrokr said:


> I will be more than willing to work with you and show you ALL of the features of our machines at our facility, or at any of the following tradeshows:


Outstanding. Looking forward to your participation. 


That's 2 vendors leading by example to help benefit the community! Who of the other 12 DTG vendors will step forward and help educate the community?

*THANK YOU Both*


----------



## FatKat Printz

StoneEyes said:


> That's 2 vendors leading by example to help benefit the community! Who of the other 12 DTG vendors will step forward and help educate the community?


These 2 vendors have communicated many times they aren't afraid of the challenge. In fact, they encourage it. You are not going to see many posts from Brother, Kornit, Equipment Zone, maybe Anajet and DTG Digital. 

Where do you get 12?? 

All American*
Belquette*
Brother
Anajet
Kornit
DTG Digital (Viper)
Equipment Zone (VJXL)
OminPrint
M&R
Mimaki

I understand you wanting to get everyone to participate in this print off . But I am sure that those that aren't vocal on the forums, (lurkers or not even participater) really won't benefit from such things. Remember, those t-shirts that are getting printed are from educated and trained individuals. Its when the printer gets home is the "true test" of what the printer can do. How the company is going to respond to them? Are they gonna get frustrated and push their printer into the corner? 

I am sure when the VJ won product of the year, sales increase. When Justin Walker won, his business increase and All American increased in sales. This goes to show that people want "winners" and disregard any negativity because they feel that it already went through these contests, tests and that's why they won. 

When I started my DTG business, there was hardly any education for DTG except for the Yahoo group from SWF. Many DTG businesses don't want people to know about TSF because of finding possible bad reviews. Whereas, others encourage people to join TSF because they know there isn't any skeletons in their closets. 

So many people do get neglected because they are unaware of TSF, or unable to make shows or want nothing to do with this forum. I support your cause to educate the DTG community, but I wish you
nothing but the best trying to get the message out. You may need 
to do some calling or emailing because some of those companies mentioned don't read the forums nor participate. Anajet has yet to comment on why they didn't want to print. 

But remember the DTG Battle Royale contest was already done and AA took 3 spots out of the top 5. You can look to see which printers did not participate and maybe call and find out why? See if they even knew about it and that would be some interesting research.


----------



## kevrokr

FatKat Printz said:


> You can look to see which printers did not participate and maybe call and find out why? See if they even knew about it and that would be some interesting research.


Are you talking about Forum Members who print DTG?


----------



## FatKat Printz

kevrokr said:


> Are you talking about Forum Members who print DTG?


Yes, those that didn't enter into the contest.. that do not have any of the machines listed below. 

Entry Numbers not placement among the contest winners

#1) Anajet Sprint with Anabright inks

#2) NeoFlex

#3) NeoFlex

#4) Brother GT-782 with Brother inks

#5) DTG Kiosk with DuPont inks

#6) DTG Raptor with DuPont inks

#7) Veloci Jet

#8) Fast T-Jet2 w/ BQ Bag white."various expired bottled CMYK inks

#9) NeoFlex

#10) Belquette Mod-1 with bagged Dupont inks

#11) DTG Viper with DuPont inks

#12) DTG brand printer

#13) Brother 782 with Brother inks

#14) Belquette Mod-1 with bagged dupont inks


Kornit, M&R, Ominprint, Mimaki... it would be interesting to see why
they didn't enter or if they would be interested in being a part of stone eyes wants to start


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## kevrokr

Stone is talking about manufacturers/distributors. Not end users.


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## FatKat Printz

kevrokr said:


> Stone is talking about manufacturers/distributors. Not end users.


I know.. just adding to what would be interesting to know. That is why I added he may have to call them m/d to want to take part of this. 
But also, see what the end users reasoning for not entering.


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## kevrokr

Seems like a lot of leg-work to call individuals to see why they didn't enter the contest. I think what Stone wants to do is kind of already done in the SGIA Product of the Year Award which the Veloci-Jet won last year.

Just a thought...Maybe a twist on the contest could be that each manufacturer has their machine and two heat presses set up in the DAPZone at SGIA. Then, at a set time, Stone gives a lone operator of the machine a flash drive with 3 files on it (two for lights, one for darks) that are able to fit on all machines' platens. The operators then go to their machines, set the jobs up as they see fit, and race to see who can print 20 of each shirt first. Then, the shirts can be judged on speed and quality that were printed in a "mock" production atmosphere.


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## StoneEyes

FatKat Printz said:


> *These 2 vendors have communicated many times they aren't afraid of the challenge. In fact, they encourage it. You are not going to see many posts from Brother, Kornit, Equipment Zone, maybe Anajet and DTG Digital.
> *


 This isn't a challenge??? its their opportunity to help educate the masses. 

FaTKat. Theres no twisting of the arm here. It's a proposal if the vendor wants to educate the community on their gear or not. If the others choose not to participate. No ones twisting any arms it's voluntary. 



FatKat Printz said:


> * do you get 12?? *


 Under the listing of DTG printers of TSF



FatKat Printz said:


> * understand you wanting to get everyone to participate in this print off *


. 

Misconception please read the print this is not a print off that happened already. This isn't about bragging rights it's about educating the community on there gear. 



FatKat Printz said:


> *But I am sure that those that aren't vocal on the forums, (lurkers or not even participater) really won't benefit from such things. Remember, those t-shirts that are getting printed are from educated and trained individuals. Its when the printer gets home is the "true test" of what the printer can do. How the company is going to respond to them? Are they gonna get frustrated and push their printer into the corner?*


Deviation from posting. Your redirecting the focus of the proposal. You are focusing on print off. Please review tread



FatKat Printz said:


> * I started my DTG business, there was hardly any education for DTG except for the Yahoo group from SWF. *


Exactly and that is why I asked if others would participate in educating the community. This isn't about individualism this is about the community.





FatKat Printz said:


> * many people do get neglected because they are unaware of TSF, or unable to make shows or want nothing to do with this forum. I support your cause to educate the DTG community, but I wish you nothing but the best trying to get the message out. *


Really no message so to speak. This is an opportunity for the DTG vendors in the community to come together as 1 just for a day. Educate the community about your product. Same shirt- 2 different images, prepped and printed by the vendor. Then the vendor provides comments about the print. How awesome would it be to have the vendor explain their choke and how it works. Or the nuances of the rip program. 




FatKat Printz said:


> * remember the DTG Battle Royale contest was already done and AA took 3 spots out of the top 5. *


 As noted previously this isn't about a print off. Its about education the community by the vendor. 



FatKat Printz said:


> * can look to see which printers did not participate and maybe call and find out why? See if they even knew about it and that would be some interesting research.*


 

This isn't about individualism. This is about learning from the vendor. 
Why someone did not participate has no relevance to the bigger cause of the community. I'm not sure why there has been multiple comments regarding this as a print off FatKat. Your talking apples and oranges here. Initially you said there was no information except for a yahoo group. Heres a perfect opportunity for the vendor community to come together for a greater cause the community as a whole.


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## FatKat Printz

Well, the distributors/manufacturers do this already at every show. When they send or hand out free sample shirts. When they are approached with artwork they either choose to print or not to print. 

As you keep saying its not a "print off".. but rather a gathering of printed similar tshirts to compare each other. Each manufacturing/vendor already does a very good job of communicating and give potential buyers lots of information at shows, thru email, follow up calls and setting up for visits. 

"Leg work" that should be involved (not every forum member) but 3-4 simple phone calls to those vendors that didn't have any customers print with their printer in the contest. Also, calling them to get on board. You will see those that are vocal and those that are not. 

If you look very closely, m/d have mutual respect for each other but aren't gonna have a big pow wow any day soon. (Expect beers and cheers on Peter) but there is no business discussions. That is where the individuality comes in. 

Everyone is out for themselves and working to build their products and making their customers happy and thats true competition. Nothing is wrong with it its natural, so as a potential buyer who doesn't know about the forums doesn't know or can't make shows. Its all part of their own research, this forum is very helpful for problems, troubleshooting, finding consumables, learning about products. But when asking a question they are bombarded with opinions, bias, bad information, poor habits and not properly educated. Its the way the business works. 

DTG is fairly young, highly competitive and also very immature. People want to buy a machine that's gonna make them money, low maintenance and low costs. RIP software, tshirt brands, and anything else you suggested. Is gonna be discussed on a personal and individual level. There are you tube videos, interviews, complaint and compliments all readily available.

No vendor is gonna educate the masses on their RIP software..that's what paid training is for. Educating the community on the basics of DTG is vital and necessary. But look how many times the same post and question has been asked?? We are making people lazy, I am guilty of it but I worked hard to be where I am at. Do you really think I am gonna spill all my secrets..hell no I will help with the basics and more than half of DTG printers feel the same way. They will give you enough to get by its your printer. Learn It!! 

There are DTG seminars, never been to one before maybe this will work there because the general public has so much research, opinions, choices and most do well whereas no matter how much you educate someone they just don't get. I have met so many people that get suckered into the sale of the printer, find out its work and lose interest. Its a vicious circle and until DTG becomes to peoples minds as screen print does maybe there will be some sort of togetherness. But don't expect any sing alongs around the campground fire any time soon..

What kind of printer do you have?


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## allamerican-aeoon

FK,
He is NeoFamily. I carry lots of respect to him. You both are like minor league of Me and Don . Chill, 
This is fun part of forum. We say so many things behind the computer. Will we say same thing when we are face to face? Maybe you we all say yes but tone will be little different. Guarantee!
it is become "4 printers compare - losers reasons (wasn't there, missed me, my shirts was bad, - shirts again- challenge - research - opinion exchange - beers"
Fun and more fun. Happy Labor day!
I was thinking if NeoFlex was last how will I react? What is your guess? Will I do same as others did? hummm
Cheers n Beers!


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## StoneEyes

Beers and Cheers on Peter lol got me on that one. I'll take a cup of coffee and some cheers, and split some talk at a gathering .


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## FatKat Printz

allamerican said:


> Maybe you we all say yes but tone will be little different. Guarantee!


I don't know, Peter you know me and how I can get 
Its all good.. it would have a great idea 1-2 years ago, but we need to move on and start innovating. We will always educate and help the DTG community, but vendors/distrubutors/manufacturers have their role and responsibility. End users, potential buyers and those who lost interest in DTG and see things are changing have their role and responsibility. 

We all want to help and educate but sometimes its more time consuming than what its worth when people don't listen.All you can do is be there to help, listen, and try to educate 

Always try to learn more than what you know. Don't get into a tedious routine otherwise you will grow .bored causing insanity.

_Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

-Albert Einstein
_



allamerican said:


> Fun and more fun. Happy Labor day!


Same to you, Peter I hope you get in some golfing. Just make sure the Leprechauns get a break from making the "special t-shirts".


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## stix

I think it is up to the potential buyer to do their own due diligence before any purchase. I think the companies spend lots of time and money to develop a quality machine and wouldn't expect them to enter challenges etc.. Their job is to sell you a machine and your job is to get a machine that will make you money within your budget.


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## StoneEyes

ok not sure where the challenge is coming from. Maybe my point is intentionally being misconstrued or I just didnt expound on it. 

So let me drill down deeper. The proposal sent forward was to provide a level environment for the vendors i.e. 1 brand of shirt and 2 images. Prepped and printed by them and then the vendor could comment on how how they dealt with the print of the image. 

Meaning - the vendor can prepare-educate-advise clients-potential customers, and even veterans on how to deal with specific customer images. Its not an everyday affair to have someone walks in with a quality image like you find at greatdane. 

Sure vendors have training but this isnt years ago it's 2011, so what harm does it do to a vendor who ecounters the same thing a store, printer, or client will encounter. 

if a vendor encounters the same thing I do and then can show me what to expect and how they dealt with it and oh by the way its items like this we cover in our training. How can that not provide me with a motivational boost, and advise me with real time pictures on what I'm going to be seeing. That's a huge customer service. 

Big difference in effort is team work. A unified effort for the common goal which is the betterment of the community why because that helps the advancement of the community. The main difference between an education and a challenge is this in my view and I'll get off my soap box  and let this lay. 

Here a vendor can say ok got it and this is what happened and this is how we would approach it or mitigate this be it choke what ever. (I did mention its also a selling point in whats covered for training) The flip side is if this goes down under the "individual" guise then so be it, but then the vendors dont have a leg to stand on when it comes to comparisons. Because just like how this thread got started 1 person posted there views. The propsal was a level playing field- with feedback allowing a level viewpoint which can and would educate the masses. 

I dont think information should be limited to only a select group who can attend a show. Ok soap box sermon over please return to your normal internet broadcast and catch the little green guy- cool picture.


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## stix

I wouldn't expect this type of training until after my purchase but before delivery of equipment. Vendors spends tens of thousand dollars for shows to capture leads and inform potential buyers. If a potential buyer is too lazy or cheap to attend a free show they deserve to get whatever results from their lack of drive. 

Every printer will not fit the needs of everyone. Some want speed and don't need to print big designs. Some will run multiple slower machines but need bigger print size. Some want an industrial machine that has size, speed but cost more. There is almost noway to compare apples to apples because of the different print heads, hybrids, and RIPS


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## cavedave

Most RIP / DTG vendors should be able to provide you with some tutorials for there software, which if you are looking for info on "How To" should contain the information you are looking for.

We provide this to all our OEM's (which they can relabel), but you can download it from our web site.
Go to www.cadlink.com
Then go to the InforSource section (you will have to create a logon, but you do not need to be a registered user of our software anyone can create a logon).
Then go to the Tutorials and Printer setup and look for Garment printing with Digital Factory
Or once you have your logon
CADlink InfoSource Videos, Tutorials, Forums
And you should see it.

This should answer most questions at least about our RIP.

Best regards

-David


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## allamerican-aeoon

Training: Such a important process of be a owner of dtg. AA offers to all many times as they want to have and we encourage this to all NeoFamily. All NeoFamily can come to AA as their own home. It is not a special event. We are doing it almost everyday. Sometime few teams at a time. You just hop in and enhance and adopt newer ideas. It will not cost any extra. Actually cost me but training is so important for your success. AA has responsibility to make all NeoFamily success because our motto is "Your success is our success." If any NeoFamily needs my assistance on any matter you know how to contact me 215-593-8698 cell. So training before, after, again, repeat will never hurt you. My home is your home.
Cheers! One more day to relax, beers are on me always.


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## Rodney

> Do you really think I am gonna spill all my secrets..hell no I will help with the basics and more than half of DTG printers feel the same way. They will give you enough to get by its your printer. Learn It!


'

If you don't want to help, that's fine. But please don't discourage others for trying to do something to help the community.

I think @StoneEyes idea is a good one, and one that could benefit 100's of people who are interested in getting into DTG.



> But look how many times the same post and question has been asked?? We are making people lazy


There are dozens of reasons why a question may get asked more than one time. Laziness has very little to do with it. Answers change, new people join with new perspectives, and for every question that gets reasked, there are 100's if not 1000's of people that don't have to ask a question because the helpful answers have already been posted. I know because I hear it all day at the trade shows.



StoneEyes said:


> Meaning - the vendor can prepare-educate-advise clients-potential customers, and even veterans on how to deal with specific customer images. Its not an everyday affair to have someone walks in with a quality image like you find at greatdane.
> 
> Sure vendors have training but this isnt years ago it's 2011, so what harm does it do to a vendor who ecounters the same thing a store, printer, or client will encounter.
> 
> if a vendor encounters the same thing I do and then can show me what to expect and how they dealt with it and oh by the way its items like this we cover in our training. How can that not provide me with a motivational boost, and advise me with real time pictures on what I'm going to be seeing. That's a huge customer service.
> 
> Big difference in effort is team work. A unified effort for the common goal which is the betterment of the community why because that helps the advancement of the community. The main difference between an education and a challenge is this in my view and I'll get off my soap box and let this lay.
> 
> Here a vendor can say ok got it and this is what happened and this is how we would approach it or mitigate this be it choke what ever. (I did mention its also a selling point in whats covered for training) The flip side is if this goes down under the "individual" guise then so be it, but then the vendors dont have a leg to stand on when it comes to comparisons. Because just like how this thread got started 1 person posted there views. The propsal was a level playing field- with feedback allowing a level viewpoint which can and would educate the masses.
> 
> I dont think information should be limited to only a select group who can attend a show. Ok soap box sermon over please return to your normal internet broadcast and catch the little green guy- cool picture.


I like the idea. Let me know how I can help support it.


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## cavedave

Hello Rodney,

You could help support this by a supporting a download area for each manufacture so they can post tutorials / support docs / updates etc..

This way users dont have to search through posts to find the links.

You dont have to host the data, you could just allow manufactures to provide the details and the links, sorted by manufacture.

Just an idea.

Best regards

-David


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## allamerican-aeoon

David,
I was surprised when I see your company name on Epson RIP recommend vendor list. My praise to you. Are you hands down on 4900 RIP yet? If so I want to look very closely if not I can wait of cause if you let me. Thx


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## stix

I guess everyone is abandoning the direct2garment printer for the 4900...input please.


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## allamerican-aeoon

stix said:


> I guess everyone is abandoning the direct2garment printer for the 4900...input please.


Far Far away. Not even dressed for party. Tests only will takes months. When AA is ready we will carefully choose volunteers and put in production mode for a long time. AA does not look for guinea pig. We will be guinea pigs instead of many you TSF members. Neo is too good name to ruin. It may can be a impossible mission. But we are giving our best is fact. We saw PP introduced 4900 5-6 months ago and where are they? M's are not ready to sell 100% yet. What do we see here? AA watched AA learned. No, Actually AA knew all the way before and knew how we going to handle it. Read my past posts about newbies.
Cheers! Beers are on me always.


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## ronart

Thank you, the 4 comparisons were very helpful. Is there have a 2013 update? I was set on the Neo flex and decided to search more and found at least 4 more machines. Not saying better but I would like to research as much before July as I would like to purchase at the Long Beach Show.


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## vlcnmstr

it would be interesting to see -- if you went back to the shows-- how those four may have (or not) changed in six years. see who is 'resting on their laurels" and who has taken to heart any input and improved. after all the NBM show is coming up in long beach soon


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## equipmentzone

vlcnmstr said:


> it would be interesting to see -- if you went back to the shows-- how those four may have (or not) changed in six years. see who is 'resting on their laurels" and who has taken to heart any input and improved. after all the NBM show is coming up in long beach soon




The 4 printers mentioned on the original post, which is from 2011, are no longer made. You'll find a tremendous amount of positive changes in the direct to garment printer industry since that time.

_


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## vlcnmstr

i guess i meant those for companies... i know omni is still around, they are short drive away from me.. stil. good info


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