# Epson F2000 Surecolor Pretreatment



## HawaiisFinest (Aug 29, 2014)

I noticed that the epson F2000 surecolor pretreatment you have to add water? Does this mean more evaporation? No more seeing the pretreatment left behind? Cause the videos I've watched on the F2000 i don't see any pretreatment in the shirts around the cured design. Not sure if its in the editing of the video? I want to pull the trigger on getting a DTG printer but from the prints that I've seen with the pretreatment box around it, it kinda makes me not want to get one. If i put my shirt in stores and i was a costumer looking at my design, why would i want a shirt with a faded box around it when i see all these other screen printed shirts with out a box? I was also wondering, for the shirts that do have the pretreatment around it, if you were to use a toby steamer on the box area would that help at all?


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## scuba_steve2699 (Nov 15, 2006)

HawaiisFinest said:


> I noticed that the epson F2000 surecolor pretreatment you have to add water? Does this mean more evaporation? No more seeing the pretreatment left behind? Cause the videos I've watched on the F2000 i don't see any pretreatment in the shirts around the cured design. Not sure if its in the editing of the video? I want to pull the trigger on getting a DTG printer but from the prints that I've seen with the pretreatment box around it, it kinda makes me not want to get one. If i put my shirt in stores and i was a costumer looking at my design, why would i want a shirt with a faded box around it when i see all these other screen printed shirts with out a box? I was also wondering, for the shirts that do have the pretreatment around it, if you were to use a toby steamer on the box area would that help at all?


The dilution is to make it easier and more economical to ship and package. Why ship it at full concentration when you can make it condensed and have the customer add water? You do not pay to ship water this way. 

All pre treatments will leave some "box" on the garment. there are different ways to minimize this and all of them are based on how you apply and then cure the treatment. 

If you let the shirt dry using a conveyor dryer or hang dry, the box will be very little, Note that you still need to heat press the shirt prior to printing to flatten the area to get a good print. If you use a heat press to cure the treatment, then you can do it in alternating steps of 15 seconds each pressing and then with the press open until it is dry. This reduces the box as well. 

There are other ways I am sure but I hope this gets you an idea of what can be done.


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## equipmentzone (Mar 26, 2008)

HawaiisFinest said:


> I noticed that the epson F2000 surecolor pretreatment you have to add water? Does this mean more evaporation? No more seeing the pretreatment left behind? Cause the videos I've watched on the F2000 i don't see any pretreatment in the shirts around the cured design. Not sure if its in the editing of the video? I want to pull the trigger on getting a DTG printer but from the prints that I've seen with the pretreatment box around it, it kinda makes me not want to get one. If i put my shirt in stores and i was a costumer looking at my design, why would i want a shirt with a faded box around it when i see all these other screen printed shirts with out a box? I was also wondering, for the shirts that do have the pretreatment around it, if you were to use a toby steamer on the box area would that help at all?



The pretreatments have improved greatly over the years. The ones used for the Epson do not leave a very perceptible border. 

There is nothing wrong with using a steamer if you want.

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## Jmelwak (Oct 23, 2013)

Sometimes even over pretreating with epson I can barely see the box and its completely gone after steaming or first wash


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## HawaiisFinest (Aug 29, 2014)

So steam with a garment steamer works? What about the Image Armor Ultra? On there site they claim lil to no crystallization when the shirt is heat pressed to cure the pretreatment. Reduce or eliminate that ugly, unsightly pretreatment mark on the shirt prior to printing. Is this true? Cause if this is ima pull the trigger on getting a DTG machine. Or if the steamer works as well. Thnx for the responce.


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## equipmentzone (Mar 26, 2008)

I see that you have posted on several different threads asking about the "pretreatment box". Hopefully from reading the many responses you have received you can see that it is really not a real problem for most printer owners.

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## HawaiisFinest (Aug 29, 2014)

This post is asking about the epson pretreat, my other post is about the image armor. Trying to figure out which one is better. Seems like image armor is better.


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## JeridHill (Feb 8, 2006)

HawaiisFinest said:


> This post is asking about the epson pretreat, my other post is about the image armor. Trying to figure out which one is better. Seems like image armor is better.


This is relative to the user. I would say, use the EPSON pretreat, it's guaranteed to work. Then if you would like samples, get the IA to test and see if it works for you.


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## HawaiisFinest (Aug 29, 2014)

guaranteed to not leave a box around the design?


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## tee09 (Oct 30, 2009)

HawaiisFinest said:


> guaranteed to not leave a box around the design?


You know how to find out what works better for you? Trial and error. Just because if it works for someone else does't necessarily mean that it will work for you (this goes for everything, not just pretreat). Some ppl like Epson pretreat better and others like IA better and others like Firebird - you know how they know? by trial and error.


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## JeridHill (Feb 8, 2006)

HawaiisFinest said:


> guaranteed to not leave a box around the design?


Sorry, it's guaranteed to work with the ink with a certain level of durability. There are methods to reducing or eliminated the boxed image. I can do that on EPSON's pretreat as well as DuPont's with various types of garments. I will say EPSON's pretreat is more forgiving than the current formula of DuPont.


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## HawaiisFinest (Aug 29, 2014)

True, i always figured that much. But just wanted to hear that you can create prints on black shirts or other dark colored shirts without having a box around it. So far no one has said "YES" you can or "yes iv'e done it". 17k as an investment or more is something to not take lightly, just making sure its possible b4 i take that leap.


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## HawaiisFinest (Aug 29, 2014)

@JaredHill thnx for the info. I gonna pull the trigger!


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## HawaiisFinest (Aug 29, 2014)

@Hill one more question, have you tried using a steamer on a cured shirt to take the box away?


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## HawaiisFinest (Aug 29, 2014)

Just talked to a guy on maui who has the f2000 and uses image armor ultra and light. He gets no box on it. But a very slight box (really not notice able) on other colors but its the colors that no1 really ever uses. He never tried the epson pre T.


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## JeridHill (Feb 8, 2006)

I've never used a steamer to get rid of the box.

Let me reiterate something though. The box isn't always due to the pretreat only. One brand of shirt won't leave a box whereas another will. Now I've seen harder to pretreat shirts have little or no box using the EPSON pretreat, but there are techniques you can use to get rid of this box. But again, it's not 100% all the time, no matter what pretreat you use. The ingredient that I've seen that causes this more than anything else is the salt base in the pretreat. I've tested using standard table salt only and some of the really hard to pretreat shirts will instantly stain.

What are some of the techniques to reduce this?

I've found that after you pretreat, if you bring your heat press down lightly for 10 seconds, then wipe off the teflon (if using), then heavy pressure until it dries, the box is reduced to almost non-existent, even on difficult shirts. The reason being, you are lifting off a majority of the moisture when you are lightly pressing the shirt. If you apply heavy pressure immediately, you trap the moisture, allowing a higher probability of creating the boxed look.

So for someone to say their pretreat doesn't leave a box, isn't the full story, there is more to it than just the pretreat.

To help answer your question above, yes, I've used the EPSON pretreat with no box and even at times, it's difficult to know if the shirt was even pretreated.


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## HawaiisFinest (Aug 29, 2014)

@Hill thnx for the info on the technique and about the shirts. Really appreciate that alot!


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## keepitspinning (Jan 13, 2014)

I bought the F2000 about 6 weeks along with the Lawson Pretreat unit. With recomendations from Lawson and the company I purchased the DTG from, I went with the Lawson pretreat. Was told by both that they did side by side comparisons and one was as good as the other, but the Lawson had a lower cost.
We did some experimenting. We tryed drying some shirts with the Geo Kinght 32 x 42 Maxi Press, and ran the rest of the shirts through our M & R Spring 2000 conveyor dryer, and then hit them with the press before printing. In both cases there was still a box of the pretreated area (we experimented on black and red shirts). One of the tech guys at Lawson told me that a high concentrate in the pre-treat is salt. Anyway, after the shirts were printed and cured (either for 35 seconds on the heat press, or through the dryer and for 5 seconds on the press), there was a visible box. So we washed the shirts, looked at them, and the box was still apparent, but through the shirts in a clothes dryer, and for all intent and purposes, the box disappeared. I have more testing to be done, but my findings leads me to believe that the box may be matted fibers. After being dried in the clothes dryer, the fibers break loose from the uncovered (not printed on pretreat), and the box is less noticeable if not gone.
I suspect that subsequent washes will make it disappear even further.
Bottom line is I don't know that it is worth worrying about.I too would prefer it is not there and am ultra picky, but customers don't seem to mind, especially when they are getting a full color print for $25.00.


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## equipmentzone (Mar 26, 2008)

keepitspinning said:


> I bought the F2000 about 6 weeks along with the Lawson Pretreat unit. With recomendations from Lawson and the company I purchased the DTG from, I went with the Lawson pretreat. Was told by both that they did side by side comparisons and one was as good as the other, but the Lawson had a lower cost.
> We did some experimenting. We tryed drying some shirts with the Geo Kinght 32 x 42 Maxi Press, and ran the rest of the shirts through our M & R Spring 2000 conveyor dryer, and then hit them with the press before printing. In both cases there was still a box of the pretreated area (we experimented on black and red shirts). One of the tech guys at Lawson told me that a high concentrate in the pre-treat is salt. Anyway, after the shirts were printed and cured (either for 35 seconds on the heat press, or through the dryer and for 5 seconds on the press), there was a visible box. So we washed the shirts, looked at them, and the box was still apparent, but through the shirts in a clothes dryer, and for all intent and purposes, the box disappeared. I have more testing to be done, but my findings leads me to believe that the box may be matted fibers. After being dried in the clothes dryer, the fibers break loose from the uncovered (not printed on pretreat), and the box is less noticeable if not gone.




Have you tried using the Epson pretreatment or the Image Armor Ultra pretreatment also to see how they perform?

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## keepitspinning (Jan 13, 2014)

No only the Lawson pretreat for colors. Once again I was advised by two different parties that they did side by side tests and saw no difference. What I failed to ask because I didn't know any better at the time was, difference in the print or in the "shadow". I assume they meant the print. I will eventually use the Epson. I defaulted to the Lawson because I drove to St. Louis to pick the pretreat unit up and to save crating and shipping, so I save shipping on it as well. I'm not dissatisfied, just nothing to compare it to, yet


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## equipmentzone (Mar 26, 2008)

keepitspinning said:


> No only the Lawson pretreat for colors. Once again I was advised by two different parties that they did side by side tests and saw no difference. What I failed to ask because I didn't know any better at the time was, difference in the print or in the "shadow". I assume they meant the print. I will eventually use the Epson. I defaulted to the Lawson because I drove to St. Louis to pick the pretreat unit up and to save crating and shipping, so I save shipping on it as well. I'm not dissatisfied, just nothing to compare it to, yet




You should try a sample of each and compare. 

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## JeridHill (Feb 8, 2006)

HawaiisFinest said:


> @Hill thnx for the info on the technique and about the shirts. Really appreciate that alot!


No problem, it works for me so why not pass the information along!


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## HawaiisFinest (Aug 29, 2014)

You have to try the image armor ultra and image armor light. I know of guys here in hawaii who use the pretreat machine from equipment zone.com and never get the box at all, and if they do its on the charcoal color and the box is very slightly there. The key in what they tell me is that you cant press the heat press down with max presure, it has to be at med level presure to where you see the steam from the pretreat coming out on all sides of the hear press. Basically the more evaporation there is, you will have lil to no box at all. You can read on the image armor web site on how to do it as well.


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## HawaiisFinest (Aug 29, 2014)

^^^^ @KeepItSpinning


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## equipmentzone (Mar 26, 2008)

HawaiisFinest said:


> You have to try the image armor ultra and image armor light. I know of guys here in hawaii who use the pretreat machine from equipment zone.com and never get the box at all, and if they do its on the charcoal color and the box is very slightly there. The key in what they tell me is that you cant press the heat press down with max presure, it has to be at med level presure to where you see the steam from the pretreat coming out on all sides of the hear press. Basically the more evaporation there is, you will have lil to no box at all. You can read on the image armor web site on how to do it as well.



Looks like you got a satisfactory answer on your pretreatment "box' question.

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## keepitspinning (Jan 13, 2014)

As I stated, I ran several shirts through our gas fired conveyor dryer that we use for screen printing.
The chamber temp was set at 360, which is the temp we cure plasitsol inks at. The chamber is 10' long and we can control the speed of the belt, so I slowed the belt down to approximately 5' a minute so the shirts were completely dry when they came out.
From a drying standpoint in what was explained above, this should be far more effective than using a heat press because of the air circulation in the dryer.
I did it this way for two reasons. I had a lot of shirts to pretreat and it was 10 times faster, and we were having to baby how we did it on the press so the pre treat didn't crystallize.
Going through the dryer, no crystallizing at all.
As far as the pretreat box, the results were minimal box, but still apparent. 
It was greatly reduced after one wash, to a point that if you didn't know it was there to begin with, you wouldn't know it was there at all..
That is using the Lawson pretreat.
Now the bigger question is, and has anybody taken the testing further. How does the print holding up?
Obviously we don't want to see the box, but if the print doesn't hold for at least 20 washes, that is a bigger problem.
I have not had a chance to experiment past a few washed with my method.
By the way for what it is worth, I was using Fruit of the loom HD6 shirts.
What are the rest of you using.


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## equipmentzone (Mar 26, 2008)

keepitspinning said:


> As I stated, I ran several shirts through our gas fired conveyor dryer that we use for screen printing.
> The chamber temp was set at 360, which is the temp we cure plasitsol inks at. The chamber is 10' long and we can control the speed of the belt, so I slowed the belt down to approximately 5' a minute so the shirts were completely dry when they came out.
> From a drying standpoint in what was explained above, this should be far more effective than using a heat press because of the air circulation in the dryer.
> I did it this way for two reasons. I had a lot of shirts to pretreat and it was 10 times faster, and we were having to baby how we did it on the press so the pre treat didn't crystallize.
> ...



As long as the ink completely dried (and the pretreat was applied correctly) then the prints should wash fine when dried through a gas conveyor dryer.

You may also want to try some other brands of pretreat for comparison.

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## Unique Threads (Nov 6, 2012)

I'm fairly new to this arena! I do embroidery, but am starting to dabble in DTG. I have the Epson F2000 and really haven't played around with it too much. I have noticed some boxes around the design on some of my shirts, but have read some of the posts. It seems that if I air dry, then the box around it will be less noticeable? If I do use a heat press, how long do I heat after the pretreat is on ( I was told :30), and then :90 after the image is on. Correct? At about 325 degrees? Also, I have a job of heather grey and sport grey tee's. Do I use the 1:1 or 1:2 for these? I'm not sure if they are considered dark or not. And the 1:2 is one part water to 2 parts pretreat or other other way around? Sorry for the silly questions, but again, a newbie! Thanks in advance!!!


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## keepitspinning (Jan 13, 2014)

The box you are seeing is to some degree a nature of the beast. I can't fully answer your question, but how pronounced the box is is dependent on a lot of things including the brand of pre-treat you are using, and the brand and style number of shirt. We've found that each yields different results.
We've had our best luck running the pre-treated garments through our screen printing dryer. Attempting to dry them with a heat press, especially all in one press, the pre-treat crystallizes. 
You also need to check you heather gray shirts. DTG only works properly on 100% cotton. Most heathered shirts are 50/50. 
Unfortunately I don't know exactly what you are asking in the rest of your questions about ratio's, so I will refrain from responding to those.


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