# Using multiple logos under trademark



## jasonsmith (Mar 30, 2011)

For my clothing line. I have a company name/brand and logo. Actually the logo also contains my company name in it. I just use the "TM" as it's unregistered.

So that's a trademarked name and logo I'm using for my brand.

I've since came up with a 2nd logo I'd like to use as a trademarked logo. Can you use more than one logo for the same line, or would you need to come up with a 2nd brand name to use it under?

i.e. like Brand 1 with logo 1, and brand 2 with logo 2?

If so, can you have both brands on the same facebook page? Or do you have to keep them seperate? As I know with Trademark they don't want any confusion.


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## kimura-mma (Jul 26, 2008)

You can use as many logos as you want under the same clothing line. So it's really up to you whether you want to have separate logos under separate clothing lines; or use multiple logos under one clothing line. Same goes for your Facebook page. There is nothing illegal about using multiple logos or brands on one facebook page. It's completely up to you how you use them.


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## jasonsmith (Mar 30, 2011)

kimura-mma said:


> You can use as many logos as you want under the same clothing line. So it's really up to you whether you want to have separate logos under separate clothing lines; or use multiple logos under one clothing line. Same goes for your Facebook page. There is nothing illegal about using multiple logos or brands on one facebook page. It's completely up to you how you use them.


On my Facebook page now, I have the brand name/logo inside at the back of the neck on my shirt mockup pics. So people would know it was a brand. I do have some mockups with the logo on the front of the shirt too. But I do know you need to show your trademark as marking a brand and not just something ornamental on the front of the shirt.

On my 2nd logo. Would I just put up some pics of some shirt mockups with the 2nd logo in the neck area instead of my original logo?

I know there's a thing to avoid with trademarks with regards to confusion.

Oh, and I'm not going to mess with registering my stuff right now. But I wanted to have national recognition, but haven't sold one of my shirts outside of my state. An attorney I talked to said I could just put the shirts (I guess mockups) online and that would serve the purpose of interstate commerce that is required to be in place for protection federally.

The tricky thing is the Trademark Office wants you to use your mark as a brand and not ornamental. Though most also use their brand logo to sell merchandise, i.e. cool logo on the front of a shirt. Like what Nike does by putting their Swoosh logo on the front of all their shirts for example. I think the Trademark Office frowns on this use of a Trademark.


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## kimura-mma (Jul 26, 2008)

If you are not registering any brand names or logos right now, then none of this matters. Just use your marks however you want. If you eventually want to register them, you will need to provide proof of use. This proof should be a neck label or hangtag, not just a t-shirt design. You seem to have a good grasp of that, so I wouldn't worry too much about it right now. Just keep making and selling shirts. Once you are ready to register, I'm sure you will have the proper proof to submit with your application.

Putting mockups on your website does show an intent to sell to multiple markets. But if your ownership of a mark is ever contested, you will need to prove that you sold shirts in those markets. Not much you can do about this. Either register your trademark now or wait til you are ready. If you wait, then technically you only have common law rights in the markets you have sold to. But as the attorney mentioned, your website shows an intent to sell to other markets. So I guess that helps a little.

As for confusion, you can't use marks that are similar to competing brands. But you can create as much confusion as you want within your own brand. So you can use whatever logos you want on the neck labels of your shirts. For instance, some shirts can have logo A and others can have logo B. As long as both logos identify the same source, it's perfectly fine.


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## jasonsmith (Mar 30, 2011)

I was wanting to do it right incase someone decided to steal my brand logo and use it. That way I'd have everything in place to contest it other than the registration part.

An attorney I talked to said the USPTO doesn't care wether you have sold anything or not. As I had talked to him about wanting to have non-registration protection but I hadn't sold anything across state lines yet. And he just told me to put it up on the web as I guess that would help show intersate commerce intent.

I may be going out of state in the future, and thought of just giving some shirts away as I had guess that would help with the interstate commerce part of it. Though I wouldn't have a record of that.

And other than registration, do you know of a way to prove your date of first use? i.e. can you submit your brand to a company or something that they could time stamp?

Technically I used one of my brands for example a couple of years ago but couldn't prove it.


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## kimura-mma (Jul 26, 2008)

It's unlikely someone will come along and try to steal your brand. It doesn't happen very often, especially when the brand holds little-to-no value. As your brand grows in value, you will have that much more common law ownership, making it easier to prove in court. And by that time, you will probably have registered anyway. If you have to go to court to prove ownership before you had a chance to register - and when your brand holds fairly low value - it will probably cost you more in legal fees than the profits you have made off the brand anyway. So you will need to answer some practical questions (like is it all worth it) before you even attempt to prove ownership in court. So what does this all mean? Focus on making and selling shirts. The legal stuff will settle itself out over time.

It's true, the USPTO doesn't care about sales. They care about intent and proof of use. Common law rights will be more about sales because it's the best way to prove use in a specific market. So your website will help because it proves intent. But it's a good idea to have more proof as well. Any time you use your mark, keep a record of it... Business cards, banners, signs, labels, stickers, hangtags, etc. Keep the receipts or emails anytime to get stuff made featuring your mark. When you send artwork to a print shop to get shirts made, keep a record of it.


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## jasonsmith (Mar 30, 2011)

I make my own stuff right now. i.e. vinyl and sublimation.

I have my designs copyrighted as that is cheap. And I guess I could copyright my logo as well if I remove the name out of it.

Thing is I had been trying to talk to some retailers and things about licensing my designs or something like that. As I think that would be alot easier than me trying to make a bunch of shirts up to sell online as I don't have the room to stock merchandise.

So was concerned of them just taking my shirt designs and/or logo and selling it on merchandise. Though I guess if that happened, it would depend on what they used. i.e. the designs, or also the brand name/logo to see if it is a copyright thing or trademark thing. As I've heard of it happening like with threadless doing it.

My 2nd logo I came up with, I cannot copyright it. I really like it and it is original I guess, so thought of using it as a logo since I could use it as a trademark. Problem is this logo is funny and could be used as an ornament on the front of a shirt. So would be easy for someone to steal it to use it as a decoration as I can't claim copyright, but would have to rely on trademark laws. 

As when I first started doing shirts for myself, I used this 2nd logo like an ornament for the front of a shirt and people commented how they liked it. But figured someone else could easily just steal it, and decided I could use it as a logo since I'm the one that came up with it and would have some protection from others using it if I used it as a trademark.


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## kimura-mma (Jul 26, 2008)

Just keep using your work as much as possible. If someone steals anything, you will have something you can use as proof of ownership.

But even if you had all your work protected as registered copyrights and trademarks, there is still risk that someone can steal them. People steal famous IP all the time, like Star Wars, Disney and the NFL. Nothing is really safe. Having registrations will help in court. But you still have to pay the legal fees to get to that point.

It's a "catch 22" situation. The more you use your work, the more protection you have. But the increased exposure creates higher perceived value which makes your work more likely to be stolen. The only way to win this game is to focus on your own business. Make enough money selling shirts (or designs) so that by the time someone steals your work, you have already moved on to your next great idea.

If you can stay ahead of the "thieves," you will win the game. If the thieves can make more money than you selling your own designs, then you are working with a failed business model to begin with.


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## jasonsmith (Mar 30, 2011)

I've sold a couple of shirts locally someone had me make, and I just stuck one of my logos inside the shirt somewhere. It's wasn't one of my shirt designs though. I did make up some shirts and one with one of my designs on the front. I then put my logo inside at the neck and on the sleeve. I sent those to someone out of state. Didn't charge them, just gave them away as they worked in fashion and figured they may pass my tshirt company info along if they liked them.

I don't really plan on making up shirts to sell. I'm just going to look at doing licensing instead if possible as I can't stock inventory to try and sell later.

So, right now my stuff is just displaying on the web.

I had been trying to get in contact with some buyers at some specific retailer outlets, but they never answer their phone and don't return your calls. So a couple of years could go by with just my designs sitting on the webpage. It doesn't cost me anything to let my designs sit on the web while I try and get a licensing deal done.


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## kimura-mma (Jul 26, 2008)

In a licensing deal, you are going to have to give up your artwork for the licensee to use. You will probably get paid on royalties. So you will need to track their usage of your work or trust them to pay what you are entitled to. For someone who is concerned about their work being stolen, a licensing deal could be very tricky. You should definitely have all your work registered before licensing it out.


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## jasonsmith (Mar 30, 2011)

Yeah, if a licensing deal was going to happen. Then I'd pay to get my stuff registered. Technically I've already got my designs copyrighted, so that part is already done. Just would have to register my name and logo. Which I could do that after I start getting money coming in. Or they may not want to use my name/logo, and just license my designs to put on the front of tshirts.

I just don't have the room to make and store shirts myself. So would have to rely on a license deal or something.


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## binki (Jul 16, 2006)

kimura-mma said:


> you can create as much confusion as you want within your own brand.


I was thinking the same thing and asking myself 'why?'


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## hostingdiva (Mar 31, 2006)

Just want to throw in my two cents as I have some experience with trademarks and dealing with the USPTO.

First, when applying for a federal trademark, your application can be use based or an intent-to-use (ITU). With an ITU application, you are saying that "you have a bona fide intent to use the mark in commerce; that is, you have more than just an idea but are less than market ready (for example, having a business plan, creating samples products, or performing other initial business activities)." Keep in mind that "commerce" means "interstate, territorial, [or] between the United States and a foreign country." So, intrastate (i.e., only in one state) is not sufficient to claim federal rights.

Second, I understand that an attorney advised that you can put your shirts online to satisfy that interstate requirement. Your attorney is correct. But, you mentioned that you understood this to be mockups. This is not going to get you over the threshold to show use. The USPTO is very strict on what it considers to be use. You may want to review the pertinent section of the USPTO Trademark Manual of Examining Procedure, which you can find here: Manuals, Guides, Official Gazette (first link). You may specifically want to look at Section 904, which addresses the specimens that USPTO will accept to demonstrate use (with specific focus on Sections 904.03 and 904.04). Specifically, note the following from Section 904.03(i):

"A website page that displays a product, and provides a means of ordering the product, can constitute a 'display associated with the goods,' as long as the mark appears on the web page in a manner in which the mark is associated with the goods, *and the web page provides a means for ordering the goods*. Web pages that display the trademarks in association with a picture of the goods or a sufficient description of them to understand what they are, and provide for online ordering of such goods are, in fact, electronic displays associated with the goods. ... *However, an Internet web page that merely provides information about the goods, but does not provide a means of ordering them, is viewed as promotional material, which is not acceptable to show trademark use on goods. *.... Merely providing a link to the websites of online distributors is not sufficient. *There must be a means of ordering the goods directly from the applicant’s web page*, such as a telephone number for placing orders or an online ordering process."

You may also want to review Section 1202 (Use of Subject Matter as Trademark) as well.

As for whether you can have more than one mark for your goods - yes, you can. The important thing is that the marks you use function to identify you brand. Companies often have separate trademarks to identify product categories. For example, Microsoft has numerous trademark registrations for MICROSOFT, but the company also has a registration for OUTLOOK and EXCEL. To figure out how to address this issue with respect to your own products, you may want to review some of the trademark guidelines that IP focused companies have developed. Here are some examples:
- Windows Trademark Guidelines
- Adobe Systems Incorporated Permissions and Trademark Guidelines
- Third Party Usage Guidelines for Oracle Trademarks

And one that you may be surprised to see:
- the US Air Force - Air Force Trademark and Licensing Program - Usage Rules (see specifically the PDF file entitled _Trademark and Licensing Program Information and Guidelines_, which has some really good examples and right and wrong).

Hope some of this is helpful to you.


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## jasonsmith (Mar 30, 2011)

I guess online ordering process could mean "send orders to such and such e-mail address for processing."

I've got a business Facebook page.

I do have a website under the Godaddy. I just have one of my logo's picture up as I'm sure it will take me a while to figure out the HTML thing.

I may just put up some pics of the shirts on my webpage and say to send order to such and such e-mail. As it will take me a while to figure out how to build a webpage, but would like to have protection.

I don't think I'm going to register as I'm not going to put my personal address up on there. And I don't care to pay for a PO Box every month just to have an address on file.

I've got my main brand and logo. But I have a 2nd logo that isn't copyrightable. I may just put this 2nd logo under a different brand name.

This 2nd trademark logo I've got I was going to see if a company was interested in buying it or licensing it to make shirts with. But I was afraid of them just stealing it since I can't copyright it. Which was why I was looking to have protection in place before I show it to other companies so they can't just steal it claiming it wasn't in use or something. As the logo would end up also being used on the front of the shirt as it would sell shirts with it on the front, vs. just being in the neck.

Kind of like Nike putting their Swoosh logo on the front of everything as it sells merchandise.


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## hostingdiva (Mar 31, 2006)

jasonsmith said:


> I guess online ordering process could mean "send orders to such and such e-mail address for processing."


Yes, you can do this. You would be better off having an official order form, which would include your logo(s) at the top (e.g., a PDF file that people download and e-mail/fax to you). (Please be sure that you are not collecting credit card information via e-mail, because e-mail is not secure. So, do not ask for credit card information in your form. Instead, you should instruct people that you will call them within x number of hours of receiving their order to collect their credit card details, because e-mail is not a secure form of communication.)

Keep in mind that all of this must be done in good faith. Your rights can be vitiated by a demonstration of a lack of good faith.



jasonsmith said:


> I don't think I'm going to register as I'm not going to put my personal address up on there. And I don't care to pay for a PO Box every month just to have an address on file.


I think you may find it hard for people to take you seriously without a business address, whether it be your home address or a private mail box. For me personally, if I don't see an address AND a phone number on a website, I don't shop there. With all the credit card fraud, it's just too risky.



jasonsmith said:


> This 2nd trademark logo I've got I was going to see if a company was interested in buying it or licensing it to make shirts with. But I was afraid of them just stealing it since I can't copyright it. .... As the logo would end up also being used on the front of the shirt as it would sell shirts with it on the front, vs. just being in the neck.


Why can't you copyright the logo? A trademark and a copyright are not mutually exclusive. While very rare (and difficult), it is possible for a copyrighted design to become a trademark. For example, the US Copyright office has recognized that, "[C]opyright protection may be available for logo artwork that contains sufficient authorship. In some circumstances, an artistic logo may also be protected as a trademark." You may want to read this article from lawyers at Kilpartrick Towsend, which is a US law firm, http://www.kilpatricktownsend.com/~/media/Files/LisaPearsonArticle.ashx. 

You mentioned in an earlier post that you can afford the copyright fees. If you're so worried about someone stealing your design, then you should just file a copyright registration.


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## jasonsmith (Mar 30, 2011)

hostingdiva said:


> Why can't you copyright the logo? A trademark and a copyright are not mutually exclusive. While very rare (and difficult), it is possible for a copyrighted design to become a trademark. For example, the US Copyright office has recognized that, "[C]opyright protection may be available for logo artwork that contains sufficient authorship. In some circumstances, an artistic logo may also be protected as a trademark." You may want to read this article from lawyers at Kilpartrick Towsend, which is a US law firm, http://www.kilpatricktownsend.com/~/media/Files/LisaPearsonArticle.ashx.
> 
> You mentioned in an earlier post that you can afford the copyright fees. If you're so worried about someone stealing your design, then you should just file a copyright registration.


Actually I think what I'll do is add a shopping cart on my website. That way it would take Paypal and I don't have to mess with anything else and would satisfy the usage requirments. I use Godaddy. I just have a picture on there now as I used their website builder, and it sucks.

I'm not worried about my main logo and designs. Because those are copyrighted other than my brand name. As you can't copyright that.

I had a 2nd logo I came up with a long time ago that I really like. I tried copyrighting it, but was denied years ago. As they say you can't just edit and add color to something. I used it on front of shirts at the time and alot of people liked it and thought it was funny, and so I was afraid of someone else taking the idea and ripping it off.

Hard to explain, but this probably isn't a good example I'm making up. But like if you took a picture of the moon, took pieces out of it and changed the colors so it looked like something else. Can't really copyright that as it's just editing something already existing.

So I figured I'd just use it as a logo so I can somewhat protect it through trademark. I'll probably come up with another name to use with that 2nd logo to keep it seperate from my main brand/logo.

I was going to look at maybe selling or licensing out that 2nd logo if some other company was interested. As I think it would sell alot of shirts or merchandise. But I'm just too small to try and take that on myself.

On that last point, my designs are copyrighted. Except one of my designs I can't copyright it, but I think it holds alot of value. So on that one design, I was going to look at trademarking it and use it as a logo as that would be the only way I could use it and somewhat protect it. If I could copyright it, then it wouldn't really be an issue.


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