# Large Job Pricing



## metalbone (Sep 7, 2013)

Quoted out a big job today and they said it was to high so I figured I would ask around here and make sure it wasn't them just being cheap.

Job specs:

123 shirts ranging from toddler (2t - 5t), youth (s - XL) and adult (s - 4xl). Gildan for light and keya for black
60 tan, 60 black
12x12 full color on back
4x4 logo on the front left chest
I pretreat everything light and dark

I discount quite a bit from normal pricing and gave them a price averaging around $15 per shirt for a double print. I probably could discount it more but with the amount of time i would have in it I didn't feel that to be prudent.

While I realize there is probably not enough info I thought I could at least get some feedback.

Thanks


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## nycmerch (Mar 29, 2009)

Keep in mind the different sizes of imprint, so you have room for "set-up" fees and because of the different ranges of sizing special handling etc. I would say $15 is fair considering of the extra effort. But thats just my opinion. 

Tim


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## treefox2118 (Sep 23, 2010)

Sounds reasonable to me, but might be high, depending on many factors.

Larger jobs are great because you can keep your ink flowing. If you have a 2 week turn around, you just have to do 15 shirts a day -- more than enough to make sure all ink is moving well. Pretreat all the shirts the first day and store them, then just pre-press again before printing.

For me, quoting large jobs, I generally aim to get my DTG customers to go a little ridiculous on the artwork. This is an important sell step. "How about adding some color gradients to really make it pop? Maybe add some color shades along your theme, too!

This prevents them from getting a screen printing quote that's comparable. We do screen printing as well, of course, but DTG really can make their shirts look amazing and unique over a 2 or 3 color screen print job.

When I quote jobs, I usually quote based on the amount of time a shirt is touched. Ordering shirts takes 10 minutes for 2 eyeballs to look over the order. My shop rate is $50 an hour, so that's $5 to place the order. No big deal.

120 shirts, depending on sizes and brands and all that stuff should be $500 or less. Call it $4 a shirt for this quote. $505 total.

12" x 12" print depending if it's CMYK or WUB doesn't matter on the time a shirt is handled. I figure 1 minute per shirt to presort, 1 minute a shirt to platen, 1 minute a shirt to de-platen, 1 minute a shirt to QC. 4 minutes per shirt x 120 shirts = 480 minutes, or 8 hours x $50 = $400.

Ink coverage? I always quote the job based on actual ink coverage, and I add 25% for head cleans and maintenance and all that stuff. We're lucky because we do a lot of 1-offs, and those 1-offs actually pay for the equipment. On big jobs, we don't amortize much of the equipment price. If you're paying $1.50 average in ink per shirt, that's $200.

Profit: I mark up shirts based on quantity, and I mark up ink based on quantity. I'd be very happy with a 40% margin on 120 shirts, so $500 + $200 = $700 * 0.4 = $280 profit.

So $505 + $400 + $200 + $280 = $1385 / 120 = $11.50 per shirt.

Of course, your ink costs could be way more on average, or you could handle shirts much more than we do. Only you know your overhead. Like I said, on big orders, I'm glad to mostly only have to load shirts and hit print over and over and over. Very simple. Keeps ink flowing every day, which is a big deal for us during slow periods like January.

If this was late March when we're slammed, I'd increase the price by 20% and call it $13.00 per shirt, or I'd offer them the $11.50 price if they could wait 4 weeks.

*Edit:* I forgot pretreat in this price. That adds time-in-hand and pretreatment costs. $15 sounds very fair during a busy period, probably $12.50 during a slow period, and I'd still go $11.50 if I was desperate for work to keep my ink flowing.


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## metalbone (Sep 7, 2013)

Treefox,

Lot of good info as usual. Imm curious though you kept saying 120 shirts. While that is technically correct, these are twjo prints per shirt.

So you have the 12x12 print in there but not the second print.

So if we were to tweak your figures some and add in for the second print, lets just say $400 (same as your 12x12) since we are essentially touching it everywhere again (no I am not a pervert) That brings us to $11.50 +$3.33 = $14.83

Which believe it or not is right on the button for what I gave them average. Some shirt styles were less others where more just depended on what they were.

I feel good about that.


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## royster13 (Aug 14, 2007)

metalbone said:


> Quoted out a big job today and they said it was to high so I figured I would ask around here and make sure it wasn't them just being cheap.
> 
> Job specs:
> 
> ...


What anyone else charges is not relevant....If you need the work and did not get it, you were too high.....If you can afford to lose the job, you were probably ok.....


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## metalbone (Sep 7, 2013)

Thats understood, I am more or less just looking to make sure I am doing my own calculations correctly.

Could I use the job? sure Could I go lower? of course.

Do I want to go lower just to get the work? No 

Everything is relative. But if my pricing is so far out there it doesn't make sense to begin with then it doesn't matter.


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## treefox2118 (Sep 23, 2010)

I missed that second print! I hate pretreating chest prints, ha.

Yep, I think our numbers would be similar in the end. January is our worst month of the year, so I would likely have said "This is my price, this is what I have to charge to make money, but we are a bit slow, so if there's a counter price you want to offer, I can talk to my employees and manager and see if they're willing to do the job for your price." And then I actually WOULD pitch it to my staff and manager and see if they want to do it at a discount, with me personally taking a hit to the bottom line.

I do something different with my regular customers -- I actually share most of my costs and profits on the quote. I specifically tell them how much money I expect to make, and after the job is complete, I show them the actual amount I made including mistakes/errors and actuals. I've never been afraid to proclaim my profits. In almost 2 decades of printing, I've had less than 2 dozen repeat customers try to get discounts, to which I told them I was more than happy to discount future orders if they made a hefty payment up front for the year -- just like I paid my equipment off in cash up front to be able to do the job.

I also regularly fire customers, without much grace. I keep a few dozen business cards from all of my competition, and have been known to hand a nitpicking "customer" a few competitor cards and say "go see Bob over at Really Cheap Printing and I'm sure he'd love to take your price." Part of being in the industry is passing on jobs that don't make sense. I hate stress, and 80% of my stress comes from accepting lowball offers and then having some problem crop up.

Remember: if someone wants a discount, squeeze the balloon elsewhere if you have to make it happen. Nothing wrong with "I am happy to knock off 10% as you asked if you're willing to accept a longer lead time by 5-10 days" or "Sure, I can knock off 20% if you're willing to accept a few of our prints that don't meet our stringent QC."


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## 23spiderman (Jun 26, 2008)

treefox2118 said:


> I also regularly fire customers, without much grace. I keep a few dozen business cards from all of my competition, and have been known to hand a nitpicking "customer" a few competitor cards and say "go see Bob over at Really Cheap Printing and I'm sure he'd love to take your price." Part of being in the industry is passing on jobs that don't make sense. I hate stress, and 80% of my stress comes from accepting lowball offers and then having some problem crop up.


haha! this is literally the best quote i've read in awhile. beautifully stated!


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## jim55912 (Jun 10, 2008)

> Quoted out a big job today and they said it was to high so I figured I would ask around here and make sure it wasn't them just being cheap.


My dad started our company. Old fashioned windshield time and shoe leather. Haggling became a way of life for him and consequently for me. We finally gave it up almost completely 3 or 4 years ago. We have a price sheet and we stick to it.

What you begin to realize about arm twisters is that they simply like to do it. It is a game. You say 10 they say 8, based on nothing. 

Having a printed price sheet that you can lay down in front of a customer and point at the price makes a huge difference. It is much better than standing in front of them punching buttons on a calculator.


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## treefox2118 (Sep 23, 2010)

I don't even negotiate for "wholesale pricing" anymore.

If someone comes in and wants wholesale pricing, this is what we do:

1. You pay retail on your first order. Upon picking up (or receiving) your order, we will include a 10% off gift certificate good for 30-60 days.

2. If you place a second order using that gift certificate, you'll get a 20% off gift certificate good for 30-60 days for order #3.

As I learn how good a customer is (not harassing us constantly, not finding flaws in everything, etc), I'll give them up to a 33% off gift certificate.

This way, they get wholesale pricing, by providing us with wholesale quantity orders, on a wholesale schedule basis.

I also will throw in freebies to close a deal, but they're not worth more than 2-3% of the overall order.


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## Smalzstein (Jul 22, 2008)

Your are a good businessman Brain, you could run business courses for printers


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## clippernate34 (Dec 24, 2013)

treefox2118 said:


> I don't even negotiate for "wholesale pricing" anymore.
> 
> If someone comes in and wants wholesale pricing, this is what we do:
> 
> ...


treefox

I really like that formula that you use. very smart!!


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## treefox2118 (Sep 23, 2010)

Smalzstein said:


> Your are a good businessman Brain, you could run business courses for printers


Haha, already in progress actually.

The new business I'm kicking off this spring will actually be a retail print shop that is registered as a school. We'll be posting our full accounting information (profits, losses, etc) as part of our courses for students to take.

I've been in the business nearly 2 decades (started as a teenager) and I've seen it all. Since we're retail, we get a few people EVERY DAY who come in to start their "garment line" and "make millions" and it's my job to tell them what they're doing wrong.

When it comes to discounting, it's far better to promise discounts in the future once the customer proves they're worth of a discount.

I tell my customers that my retail price includes the following:

1. Paying for shirts and ink
2. Paying for buying expensive printers and maintaining them daily
3. Paying for rent and utilities
4. Paying for phones and Internet service (and free WiFi we provide)
5. Paying for a customer service person who sits around and answers emails all day, and usually from home at night
6. Paying for employees to be available to print new jobs -- if employees worked all 40 hours a week, we couldn't take new jobs. So someone has to pay them to sit around some of the time
7. Paying to field customer service requests -- the more a customer emails or calls or visits, the more expensive this costs me
8. Paying for our mistakes (ruined shirts, printing on the wrong shirt, etc)
9. Paying for contract artists to do great designs as needed.

If someone asks for a discount, I ask them which of the 9 areas they think I should pay less for. If you look it over two or three times, you see the biggest area is #7.

If a customer doesn't harass with an email 6 times a day, then of course they'll get a discount when they prove themselves to me. Otherwise, I have to assume they're going to be like the average customer.

Lately, if a customer asks "When will my job be done?" even though the promised due date is days ahead, I respond "Just as planned, and for your information these questions will be billed at $10 per email in the future, so I can pay someone to spend the time reading your email, inquiring with production, and then sitting down to field a response." And I do charge $10 per email after that.


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## metalbone (Sep 7, 2013)

I love your train of thought. Thats awesome


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## treefox2118 (Sep 23, 2010)

I'm not in business to be a charity -- and neither are most of my customers. But if I help them to make money, then they'll help me to make money, and we both win in the end.

There's enough business in the world for everyone to make money, if they can persevere and stay focused on keeping the lights on.


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## clippernate34 (Dec 24, 2013)

treefox2118 said:


> I'm not in business to be a charity -- and neither are most of my customers. But if I help them to make money, then they'll help me to make money, and we both win in the end.
> 
> There's enough business in the world for everyone to make money, if they can persevere and stay focused on keeping the lights on.


Love it I added my email to your learn DTG site as I am a newbie will be opening for business in March.


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## royster13 (Aug 14, 2007)

At the end of the day you need to make profitable sales to stay in business......You can have the "best" plan in the world based on all the ideas you read, however, if it does not yield enough sales you are out of business...Everyone is free to operate however they please but at the end of the day only you can decide what is best for your business....If you are still making money and have time to do the job IMO you should do it....And when you get so busy you do not have time, then you can send them away....


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## treefox2118 (Sep 23, 2010)

royster13 said:


> At the end of the day you need to make profitable sales to stay in business......You can have the "best" plan in the world based on all the ideas you read, however, if it does not yield enough sales you are out of business...Everyone is free to operate however they please but at the end of the day only you can decide what is best for your business....If you are still making money and have time to do the job IMO you should do it....And when you get so busy you do not have time, then you can send them away....


I agree with this completely.

When I start new small businesses, I usually try this on for size:

"We're a new business so we're looking for customers, which is more important to us right now than making big profits. Instead of cutting my price to the bare minimum, would you be interested in considering accepting our asking price, and if you're happy enough to come back, we'll give you a 10% discount off retail for our first year?"

Create relationships. That's the key for a startup with few to no customers. I always tell clients I'll give them a 10% credit for referrals, and I always tell referrals that I'm giving their buddy 10% and will do the same for them if they refer us to others.

No amount of online marketing is as powerful as word of mouth. Even if you ARE only online, there's no harm in asking people for referrals, and asking them to understand your pricing allows you to stay in business, but you're happy to provide discounts in the long run if they're happy.

If they're not happy with your product, what difference would that 10 or 20% have made?


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## BandPrints (Feb 4, 2007)

I think the 15 dollar mark is fair, it also depends on your printer. We run everything 1440x1440 so I tell customers that. Many times if they want to low ball it or complain we tell them to find someone with a Kornit. Our price is $15.40 without the tees included (just front left chest and standard back, all with white base), we would provide our house brand style for $1.99 - $2.99 depending on the client.

With DTG especially we let the customers go more often than not, and many times they come back around asking for us to run the job since they didn't like the feel or quality of a competitors machine or other reasons. 

With DTG you need to try and stick firm to pricing, the biggest problem is that you can only output a certain amount per hour depending on the DPI/quality. So if a customer really wants to low ball and says that someone is offering a better price we let them know we will run the CMYK at 1440x720 and the dark garments with the same CMYK pass and match it.

In screen printing the room for discounts is greater, especially when running autos but DTG we have learned to stand firm. In the end we have found the right client base and we stay booked out to keep the machines running 6 days a week.


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## metalbone (Sep 7, 2013)

Yeah this particular customer was use to getting 1 color single printed shirts for $7. Which is fine but we told them flat out you cannot compare the DTG stuff we do to screen printing single color. The shirt my designer designed and we printed for them as a sample was full color and beautiful and there is no way they can get any screen printer anywhere to print the image we did for $7. 

They are sending out for quote now to the person that did there last shirts for $7.

There no comparison as its not apples to apples.


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## treefox2118 (Sep 23, 2010)

I don't try to chase those clients. Since we do screen printing anyway, I'll usually offer to show them two printed proofs and ask them to get some opinions.

On a big order, I can understand their hesitance to spend an extra $1000 -- but if they're looking for cheap, they should have mentioned their budget up front. I'm pretty quick to ask customer "What kind of budget are you looking to spend, so I can properly pick the proper print format and the quality of the finished product."

If someone came to me and said "120 shirts, $800" I'd show them photos of our screen printed work, AND I'd show them some printed samples of shirts that they could have for $900, $1000, and $1200.

Always always always take photos of printed runs, and ask your customers if you can put them in your look book. Then, you always have a way to show people upsells. "For only $0.75 more per shirt, you can do xxxxx or yyyyyy."


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## mwilliams0763 (Feb 18, 2013)

To us $15 for that large of a design on the back plus all the steps it takes for DTG Priniting is very reasonable. Now our hardest issue is trying to get people to keep from comparing DTG to Screenprint. I wouldn't budge off of that price at all. They probably had a Screenprint quote and they are not going for the Quality of DTG Printing.


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## metalbone (Sep 7, 2013)

I have a question for you in reference to sending out the sample. I have wanted to do this for a while but every time i try they turn out like crap.

What graphic to do you use? Do you use their logo and how do you get a good version of their logo or whatever without calling them or just a graphic you have. Every time I have tried to do one of their logos, the original isn't that good because I am pulling it from a website or someplace so its low res. And if you want their original artwork you have to call them to get it so your defeating the purpose.

Do send it on a white t-shirt or do you go through the added expense and steps of a dark garment?


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## mwilliams0763 (Feb 18, 2013)

metalbone said:


> I have a question for you in reference to sending out the sample. I have wanted to do this for a while but every time i try they turn out like crap.
> 
> What graphic to do you use? Do you use their logo and how do you get a good version of their logo or whatever without calling them or just a graphic you have. Every time I have tried to do one of their logos, the original isn't that good because I am pulling it from a website or someplace so its low res. And if you want their original artwork you have to call them to get it so your defeating the purpose.
> 
> Do send it on a white t-shirt or do you go through the added expense and steps of a dark garment?



If you know of someone that is good with a graphics program or if you can change the resolutions yourself in a program like Photoshop CS6 you can do it but if not then I have used Fix Bad Art — Fix Bad Art Quality Vectorization FAST. They charge a fee but they are very reasonable and if you think you will get a good or ongoing work from them then it is well worth it. Sometimes you can find kids in school that can really work with these graphics programs too. 

Use your best judgement on the shirt, I would use black because it really pops unless it has colors that will look better on white or light colored shirt.

Hope this helps,
Michele


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## treefox2118 (Sep 23, 2010)

metalbone said:


> I have a question for you in reference to sending out the sample. I have wanted to do this for a while but every time i try they turn out like crap.
> 
> What graphic to do you use? Do you use their logo and how do you get a good version of their logo or whatever without calling them or just a graphic you have. Every time I have tried to do one of their logos, the original isn't that good because I am pulling it from a website or someplace so its low res. And if you want their original artwork you have to call them to get it so your defeating the purpose.
> 
> Do send it on a white t-shirt or do you go through the added expense and steps of a dark garment?


If you're responding to my post about having samples, I always mean samples of previous jobs we've done for others.

I keep samples for every job type: a black shirt with just white (screen and DTG), a color shirt with 4 colors AND a comparison with it DTG'd, etc.

Then I can show them upsell potentials within their budget. "You know you can add 1 more color and really make things pop for just $200 more on the order" etc.

Or "Here's a design that we did with 3 color screens, and here is the same design done with gradients and highlights on DTG, it was only $6 a shirt more."


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## metalbone (Sep 7, 2013)

So next question. Whats the cheapest way you have found to ship a single t-shirt. I am looking at the post office and the flat rate stuff is about $5.50. There is first class for around $2.50 ish but not sure if you can sent a shirt first class due to restrictions.

Whats been your experience?


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## royster13 (Aug 14, 2007)

metalbone said:


> There is first class for around $2.50 ish but not sure if you can sent a shirt first class due to restrictions.


What restrictions?


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## metalbone (Sep 7, 2013)

LOL I am guessing you send them first class. I guess I was more concerned with the 1/4" thickness variation.


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## royster13 (Aug 14, 2007)

metalbone said:


> LOL I am guessing you send them first class. I guess I was more concerned with the 1/4" thickness variation.


I am in Canada so no idea how your PO works....Why not put them in a box?....


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## treefox2118 (Sep 23, 2010)

I ship about 30% of our single shirt orders first class. Downside is that there is no priority, so they can sit at the post office an extra day or two.

As long as it's under 13 ounces, it ships fine in a polybag.


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## metalbone (Sep 7, 2013)

Boxes are one way to go but there is roughly a $2 difference between Small flat rate box and First class for USPS. Here is what I am seeing:

First class - $2.87
Small Flat Rate box - $5 +


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## royster13 (Aug 14, 2007)

metalbone said:


> Boxes are one way to go but there is roughly a $2 difference between Small flat rate box and First class for USPS. Here is what I am seeing:
> 
> First class - $2.87
> Small Flat Rate box - $5 +


So can you not ship a box as a 1st class package?


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## metalbone (Sep 7, 2013)

Pricing it out looks like first class box is about $3.60. So yeah guess you can and still be ok on shipping price.


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## royster13 (Aug 14, 2007)

I use PayPal / Ebay to ship Canada Post in Canada at rates lower than Canada Post direct....Can you use PayPal / Ebay to ship USPS in the US?


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## metalbone (Sep 7, 2013)

Always thought that was only for the stuff in Ebay, did not realize you could just print postage from there for whatever you wanted.


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## royster13 (Aug 14, 2007)

*Secret PayPal Shipping Labels & Stamps off-eBay Mailing | eBay
*

*https://www.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_ship-now *



I can not view this link because my account is Canadian...


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## metalbone (Sep 7, 2013)

Awesome thanks.


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## mwilliams0763 (Feb 18, 2013)

metalbone said:


> So next question. Whats the cheapest way you have found to ship a single t-shirt. I am looking at the post office and the flat rate stuff is about $5.50. There is first class for around $2.50 ish but not sure if you can sent a shirt first class due to restrictions.
> 
> Whats been your experience?


I use stamps.com and send USPS all the time, no issues at all. Most of the US is under $5 per shirt. Most economical way we have found to ship so far.


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## FulStory (Jun 5, 2013)

treefox2118 said:


> Sounds reasonable to me, but might be high, depending on many factors.
> 
> Larger jobs are great because you can keep your ink flowing. If you have a 2 week turn around, you just have to do 15 shirts a day -- more than enough to make sure all ink is moving well. Pretreat all the shirts the first day and store them, then just pre-press again before printing.
> 
> ...


so the 40%/$280 is the profit to the blank shirt? means if the shirt is $5/piece, so u sell $7?


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## treefox2118 (Sep 23, 2010)

FulStory said:


> so the 40%/$280 is the profit to the blank shirt? means if the shirt is $5/piece, so u sell $7?


Yep, but that number can vary depending on a lot of factors.

When I price garments, I price the hand-time cost as well. Hopping online to a garment dealer's website takes time. Placing the order takes time. Receiving shirts and sorting them takes time. That time is factored into my garment price.

We have some jobs where we charge almost no margin on blanks. Gildan 2000 whites? I can sell the shirt blank for $2 ("any size!") plus printing, because it's a value option for walk-ins. Cost isn't much less than that once you mix in 2XL+.

I also charge up to 100% margin on some expensive threads in low quantity. Covers any screw-ups and having to reship one or two pieces to replace.


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