# Why has no one developed a dark garment transfer?



## Big Al (Feb 3, 2008)

Ok I have been thinking of this for years and now for the life of me i cannot understand why no entrapenering company has not developed this, I was even at the UK Sign show the other week and asked both the man on the Direct to T-shirt stand and the guy on the Roland stand who was demo'ing me their latest white print and cut machine which I have an interest in and told him to go back to Roland with my idea and make a name for himself!

Now for my money the direct to T-Shirt machines are both expensive, fussy to use and time consuming and at the end of it amazingly after you have to printed the garment you still have to heat press it!!!!! More wasted time and electricity. 

So my question is now we have this white ink technology why not develop a way of printing a transfer by laying down the colour first then the white base which could be stored then simply pressed on to a white garment by semi skilled staff in a single operation. BTW I am not talking about litho as I know that has been done like this for years but an inhouse inkjet system.

Surely the kit would be a fraction of the price of a direct to T-shirt press and for my money would be quicker and easier to use, so come on some brainy person out there develop this and become a millionaire. I'm to old and not clever enough but if I was I am sure a solution could be found and I would be at the head of the queue if a successful system was developed.


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## prometheus (Oct 19, 2006)

Are you talking about an inkjet printer that would print the CMYK part first, and then a white layer onto a release paper, that you would then press onto the shirt?


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## MotoskinGraphix (Apr 28, 2006)

Isnt opaque transfer paper for darks your actual white base?


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## prometheus (Oct 19, 2006)

But with opaque, you either have to cut it out by hand, or transfer the whole thing. I wasn't sure if he is talking about something that would work like a opaque DTG that prints to a realease paper. Kisscut or Wow come pretty close to that.


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## MotoskinGraphix (Apr 28, 2006)

I think since dtg is available now with white ink and based basically on a digital printer, maybe the home printers will eventually have a white ink capability. Just a guess but maybe thats where his mind is traveling.


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## mmagdesigner (Apr 11, 2008)

okay but if you purchase a cutter you can create a cut line around your transfer and it would cut out all you don't want with the opaque right?


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## mmagdesigner (Apr 11, 2008)

digiprints looks good on darks


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## mmagdesigner (Apr 11, 2008)

maybe i am not understanding what the question is


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## dodank (May 4, 2007)

Big Al said:


> Ok I have been thinking of this for years and now for the life of me i cannot understand why no entrapenering company has not developed this, I was even at the UK Sign show the other week and asked both the man on the Direct to T-shirt stand and the guy on the Roland stand who was demo'ing me their latest white print and cut machine which I have an interest in and told him to go back to Roland with my idea and make a name for himself!
> 
> Now for my money the direct to T-Shirt machines are both expensive, fussy to use and time consuming and at the end of it amazingly after you have to printed the garment you still have to heat press it!!!!! More wasted time and electricity.
> 
> ...


i agree something like imageclip but not as expensive like the wow paper. there's someone with already i bet. but the industry probably has shot it down or preserved it trying to sell this dtg machines, just my theory.


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## Girlzndollz (Oct 3, 2007)

Why can't the inks themselves be opaque? We need new inks in our printers...

That's about the simpliest solution I can see... If anyone uses this, just cut me in a few cents on the dollar, please..


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## MotoskinGraphix (Apr 28, 2006)

Girlzndollz said:


> Why can't the inks themselves be opaque? We need new inks in our printers...
> 
> That's about the simpliest solution I can see... If anyone uses this, just cut me in a few cents on the dollar, please..


I think opaque inks are probably a bit heavy for todays print heads. Same problem with white ink in general whether its plastisol or digital DTG ink.

Someday we will get there but a redesign of the basic digital printer is the next solution. Right now they are trying to fit a square into a round hole.


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## Girlzndollz (Oct 3, 2007)

MotoskinGraphix said:


> I think opaque inks are probably a bit heavy for todays print heads. Same problem with white ink in general whether its plastisol or digital DTG ink.
> 
> Someday we will get there but a redesign of the basic digital printer is the next solution. Right now they are trying to fit a square into a round hole.


Yeah, figured the nozzles would need a boost in size, but that and opaque inks... whoo hoo.. it'd be nice, right?

Isn't the real issue with the printers that they were not designed for this use, they were designed for photo printing.. and we have adopted a piece of equipment from a different industry and made it work with our papers? 

What we need is for someone to design the printer specifically for this purpose... so I am with David.. we need a printer with nozzle heads for inks that are opaque and made specifically for garment design...


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## prometheus (Oct 19, 2006)

I paint my shirt with whiteout first, and then apply regular transfers.


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## Girlzndollz (Oct 3, 2007)

There you go, now that's a product I always have around.. white out... how about adding food color to the white out, and just painting the whole design on... Kidding!! Like I'm not!  Have a good one, peeps!


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## vctradingcubao (Nov 15, 2006)

prometheus said:


> I paint my shirt with whiteout first, and then apply regular transfers.


Maybe it's also possible to do "discharge printing" first, then apply regular laser transfers.


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## prometheus (Oct 19, 2006)

The only problem I've had with it, is that it cracks, goes on too heavy, takes 10 hours to dry and get's me so high that I mess up the shirt. Other than that, it works great, especially when I make mistakes.


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## Girlzndollz (Oct 3, 2007)

vctradingcubao said:


> Maybe it's also possible to do "discharge printing" first, then apply regular laser transfers.


 
Yep, or bleach 'em at home... 

Prommy, I knew there was something 'different' about you some dayzzz...


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## prometheus (Oct 19, 2006)

Girlzndollz said:


> Prommy, I need there was something 'different' about you some dayzzz...


"Need"? Not sure what that means.


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## Girlzndollz (Oct 3, 2007)

"Knew" - I meant to say "knew" - it's the dang white out getting to my head!


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## Screenanator (Feb 14, 2007)

Big Al said:


> Ok I have been thinking of this for years and now for the life of me i cannot understand why no entrapenering company has not developed this, I was even at the UK Sign show the other week and asked both the man on the Direct to T-shirt stand and the guy on the Roland stand who was demo'ing me their latest white print and cut machine which I have an interest in and told him to go back to Roland with my idea and make a name for himself!
> 
> Now for my money the direct to T-Shirt machines are both expensive, fussy to use and time consuming and at the end of it amazingly after you have to printed the garment you still have to heat press it!!!!! More wasted time and electricity.
> 
> ...


If your just going to put it on a WHITE T....then use the Roland Versacamm with Imprintables Solutions clear transfer film....the color is absolutely stunning....it has the rich dark color of plastisol but you can print photo quality images on to white garments..you simply mirror your image before sending it to the printer..print...cut...weed...and press...the support backing actual becomes the transfer paper....and if your looking to do darks.Use Imprintables Solutions Opaque then contour cut and press...BAM now you've got perfect picture quality on DARKS...The Roland VP/SP series are truely versatile machines....we can go from museum quality prints to bumper stickers to photo T's.


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## Leatherneck (Jan 18, 2008)

Girlzndollz said:


> "Knew" - I meant to say "knew" - it's the dang white out getting to my head!


Oh no Kelly cap the white out .... just sit it down and step away LOL


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## COEDS (Oct 4, 2006)

I like the white out idea. I just need to know where to buy it by the gallon and what type of spray gun you are using. LOL. ..... JB


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## Girlzndollz (Oct 3, 2007)

Rick and JB, too funny! 

It sounds like Ronnie has an actual real life solution posted... 

Ronnie, around how much does that Roland run, if you don't mind giving a ball park figure, and how's the hand - compared to say Ironall Dark (have you ever used Ironall dk?) Does the product crack at all? Thanks alot, Ronnie!


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## prometheus (Oct 19, 2006)

Girlzndollz said:


> "Knew" - I meant to say "knew" - it's the dang white out getting to my head!


I think she really "needs" me to be differnet. Freaudian slip.



COEDS said:


> I like the white out idea. I just need to know where to buy it by the gallon and what type of spray gun you are using. LOL. ..... JB


I don't spray it, just use the little brush that comes with it.


Seriously, I've seen samples of the Roland stuff. It feels a little like paper on the garment. It's not as heavy as the opaque transfers out there. It stretches pretty good as well. The color is good. Overall not too bad. If you were looking for something that has the feel or look of screen or even DTG, it's not near that. But it sure as heck beats regular opaque transfers. As for costs? I think you are looking between $12k and $21K. Of course you can a LOT more with them besides shirts.


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## Big Al (Feb 3, 2008)

No guys I mean (a) A system for printing on to darks (b) No cutting or further operations just make a transfer and press on to shirt (c) No bleaching just a simple process. What I envisage is to print the colour onto a special transfer paper then the printer backs up the paper to the begining again and lays down a white on top of the colour without removing the paper from the machine so everything perfectly aligns. I see a similiar thing with the new Roland Soljet XC540 at the sign show but that was printing with solvent inks so would not work. It needs to be a heat activated ink I assume the same stuff they use when they litho or screen print transfers. This must be doable and who ever cracks it will be on a fortune. A Canadian guy was working on a system that used two laser printers one with white ink and one with colours but as this meant removing the paper and then running it through another machine and knowing laser printers as i do i think alignment would be impossible and probably why it failed to materialise.


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## prometheus (Oct 19, 2006)

In some way this exist with KissCut for inkjets - www.kisscutpaper.com, but has had mixed reviews. There is also WOW for laser - Laser Transfer Paper - TheMagicTouch USA - WoW 7.1, which is expensive and has 3 or 4 steps.

It would be interesting to see if someone could take a DTG unit and print onto regular transfer paper for lights and reverse the order so the white print last. And then see if it would transfer.


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## sunnydayz (Jun 22, 2007)

I think the whole problem with this idea lies with the white ink. The only white ink out there that is available that runs through a printhead is dupont and kornit white. These inks are made specifically for direct to garment printers and the companies have contracts that they only distribute to these companies. It was a huge effort to come up with these inks and alot of money involved in getting the correct properties that would allow the ink to flow through the printheads. 

The white ink for these printers took alot of research and developement to get it where it is now and I think if some other printer company were to come up with a printer that printed white ink, they would do the same as everyone else has done and sell it as a direct to garment printer as it is more profitable for them to do so. I mean really, if a printer is capable of printing white ink, why print to a transfer first when you can print directly to the garment? That is just my thoughts on this


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## Big Al (Feb 3, 2008)

I am using WOW 7.1 and have contributed to the current thread, its OK as it goes but not the complete solution I am looking for, this will come I am sure but it needs more brains than I have to come up with the solution, its like a web site, I know what I want and can come up with the idea, writing the code it is something entirely different!


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## Big Al (Feb 3, 2008)

Because Sunny with a direct to print machine you have to set the shirt in the printer, print it, then as I said press the thing, my idea would invlove one simple press that a non skilled member of staff could do, all the tricky wrk would be done by the printer operator/designer and transfers could be stored or sold. Its possible with litho and is already being done and has been for ages so why not with an ink jet machine?


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## MotoskinGraphix (Apr 28, 2006)

It is possible with plastisol transfers. Photo pics are probably possible with F&M custom plastisol transfers.


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## sunnydayz (Jun 22, 2007)

The whole problem with using the white ink through the printer though is the setting of the ink. The white ink takes time to set therefore that is where the pressing time comes from. You would need to come up with a white ink that does not require curing and that is where the problem would come from. White ink doesnt dry the way regular pigment ink drys, it has to be cured because of its different chemical properities it has for making it opaque. Where cmyk inks are only pigment, the white ink has titanium dioxide which is a metal that makes it opaque and requires curing. You would not be able to just print it onto a piece of paper without having some way of curing it.


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## sunnydayz (Jun 22, 2007)

I agree David, I think plasitol transfers are going to be the only solution as far as getting a white layer over color on a transfer.


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## prometheus (Oct 19, 2006)

Big Al said:


> I see a similiar thing with the new Roland Soljet XC540 at the sign show but that was printing with solvent inks so would not work.


But this is only for signs right, not for transfers?

I think the idea is grand and would be great. But I have a feeling that it hasn't been done, because it is very difficult, too many steps, or something hasn't been invented yet, to take it to the next level.

WHen I first got into graphics there was a Thermal printer by Alps that could print white, gloss, gold & silver, via special ribbons, but I don't think you could transfers with it.

I think some of the current solutions are good, they just need to be refined so that they are less cumbersome & cheaper.


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## Big Al (Feb 3, 2008)

There was also a thermal printer that wax ribbons were available for printing transfers, unfortunately they did not have a white one. 

I know plastisol transfers are possible and I have used them very good as well but I want to be able to produce these in house without screening. The reference to the Roland machine was that it is possible to lay down the colour then accurately overprint with white so that part of the hardware/software is possible now all it needs is a special inkjet head and ink similiar to plastisol and we have cracked it! (Thats all he said )


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## MotoskinGraphix (Apr 28, 2006)

Anyone remember the post with the digital airbrush painting the car hood? How refinded was that system and could it work on tees?


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## MotoskinGraphix (Apr 28, 2006)

Big Al said:


> There was also a thermal printer that wax ribbons were available for printing transfers, unfortunately they did not have a white one.
> 
> I know plastisol transfers are possible and I have used them very good as well but I want to be able to produce these in house without screening. The reference to the Roland machine was that it is possible to lay down the colour then accurately overprint with white so that part of the hardware/software is possible now all it needs is a special inkjet head and ink similiar to plastisol and we have cracked it! (Thats all he said )


I dont think any fine detail print head is ever going to spray white plastisol ink. That stuff is thicker than ground beef.


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## Big Al (Feb 3, 2008)

Maybe a lighter version with multi passes.


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## pballandatee (Oct 23, 2007)

maybe we could con epson into taking the 1800 and make a replacement kit for the clear gloss with a white ink?!!!! that could print on a transfer base sheet, interesting.. even better maybe we could use solvent based ink put it on clear heat press vinyl (maybe imprintables could come up with a eco clear, ) cut it out like regular vinyl, wouldnt that work??? Just my 2 cents..remember im a newb, so this might of been done before.


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## gmille39 (Oct 18, 2006)

mmagdesigner said:


> okay but if you purchase a cutter you can create a cut line around your transfer and it would cut out all you don't want with the opaque right?


Not really. Some of the transfer paper for lights will be clear around the edges, whereas the opaque paper will be white. Won't look good.


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## gmille39 (Oct 18, 2006)

Girlzndollz said:


> There you go, now that's a product I always have around.. white out... how about adding food color to the white out, and just painting the whole design on... Kidding!! Like I'm not!  Have a good one, peeps!


You couldn't call it white out then.


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## Girlzndollz (Oct 3, 2007)

prometheus said:


> Of course you can a LOT with them besides shirts.


Sir Can-A-Lot, hahahaha....Nah, I simply meant "knew"... you can't analyze a woman, it's impossible... 



Big Al, sorry , I didn't know you had a whole direction in mind... that would be pretty awesome if that process comes about... there's always "partnering" up with others... tis a great idea you have there...


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## MotoskinGraphix (Apr 28, 2006)

Sorry but white and opaque white just isnt avaailable today.


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## Screenanator (Feb 14, 2007)

Girlzndollz said:


> Rick and JB, too funny!
> 
> It sounds like Ronnie has an actual real life solution posted...
> 
> Ronnie, around how much does that Roland run, if you don't mind giving a ball park figure, and how's the hand - compared to say Ironall Dark (have you ever used Ironall dk?) Does the product crack at all? Thanks alot, Ronnie!


We got the VP-540...around 22k IIRC....the hand with the clear isnt bad....especially after one washing...the opaque on the darks is a lil rubbery...but it has the best color on darlk I've ever dealt with period!...I've used alot of other products(wont bash them) but for our taste the Roland takes the cake.


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## Naga (Mar 11, 2008)

What about 1-2 layers of white UV-cured ink and printing the normal colors on top of this?

Hey, where can I find a patent office?


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## mmagdesigner (Apr 11, 2008)

hey kelly, i have been pricing thoes cutters and printers.......from imprintables warehouse you can get the versacamm depending on the size you want for......30" versacamm sp-300 $10,995....54" versacamm sp-540 $16,995......30" versacamm vp-300 $14,995.........54" versacamm vp-540 $20,995 soljet proIII xc-540 $29,995


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## Girlzndollz (Oct 3, 2007)

Thanks, Tracy.... Even tho I'm not in the market, I appreciate the effort you went to to post the pricing... I was most definitely interested in Ronnie's opinion of the product as he is completely satisfied with his product for darks, and that's unusual for me to hear when it comes to paper for darks... I know of folks, like me, who use papers for darks, but still wish for something better, but not Ronnie, so I had to know more... I am happy for him, even tho that equipment is too rich for my blood... but if I run into someone else who can afford these machines, and wants to be as happy as Ronnie, I'll certainly be sending them to this thread... thanks so much for listing those prices out, that was really nice of you... Best regards, Kelly


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## Leatherneck (Jan 18, 2008)

mmagdesigner said:


> hey kelly, i have been pricing thoes cutters and printers.......from imprintables warehouse you can get the versacamm depending on the size you want for......30" versacamm sp-300 $10,995....54" versacamm sp-540 $16,995......30" versacamm vp-300 $14,995.........54" versacamm vp-540 $20,995 soljet proIII xc-540 $29,995


Wow, great research but a little rich for my blood LOL  It sounds like Ronnie is thrilled though. When I get to the point that I can affford one of these beasts Ill certainly be looking this information up again.


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