# rough white ink on black



## drscotty14 (Mar 23, 2011)

having alot of problems with white ink on black shirt! i do a hard fill stroke (screen up) then a push print, sometimes a dry stroke after. its hard to clear the screen unless i do the fill stroke first. so im clearing the screen easily this way but after the first print before the flash i took a picture. i held a flashlight to exaggerate the roughness. if i cant get the first print smooth, ill never get the 2nd smooth. here is my setup:

newman sceens at 40 newtons (brand new, set up professionally) 205 mesh 
sharp wooden squeegees 70 durometer
6/4 workhorse press, wood plattens
1/16 and 1/8 off contact
plenty of platen tack
diazo emulsion coated 1/1 round edge
internation coating ink, thinned, drill stirred for 1 min in pint container. ink warm also.

any help would be greatly appreciated! picture is after first print before flash.


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## abchung (Jul 16, 2009)

It could be the material. Is it 100% cotton?


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## sben763 (May 17, 2009)

What IC white. Some I thin as much as 25% especially through a 205. 

Hard to tell from just the pic a few things could be. 1 not pressing hard enough to mat the fibers of the shirt down. 2 ink not thin enough and sticking to back of screen. 1/8" for white should be plenty of off contact. You could be over flooding try a very light flood. It looks like some of the line line details are being lost which is a indication not enough pressure or an over flood.


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## deepbluex (Jun 24, 2011)

Try adding some curable reducer to thin the ink and raise the off contact a little. I had this issue and these two steps helped. It thins the ink and the bigger off contact makes the screen stick less to the garment. I saw this when applying large areas of white ink. These large areas (as opposed to some thin lines) create a glue-like spot that causes the screen to stretch and stick to the garment. When the screen finally lets go, the resulting surface is this stucco-like effect rather than a smooth layer.



drscotty14 said:


> having alot of problems with white ink on black shirt! i do a hard fill stroke (screen up) then a push print, sometimes a dry stroke after. its hard to clear the screen unless i do the fill stroke first. so im clearing the screen easily this way but after the first print before the flash i took a picture. i held a flashlight to exaggerate the roughness. if i cant get the first print smooth, ill never get the 2nd smooth. here is my setup:
> 
> newman sceens at 40 newtons (brand new, set up professionally) 205 mesh
> sharp wooden squeegees 70 durometer
> ...


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## inkdrips (Aug 16, 2010)

I hate IC white. Never printed right for me. Get a better white. Or reduce the crud out of it. Looks like your putting alot of ink down on your first pass, especially with a mesh over 200. Try a softer fill stroke.. even if you have to do a dry stroke after to clear. You second hit of ink after the flash should really take care of the opacity 

Sent from my SCH-I535 using T-Shirt Forums


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## Stitches (Oct 2, 2006)

Loose screen?


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## drscotty14 (Mar 23, 2011)

its ryonet white for cotton. im printing black 100% cotton shirts. the image is a white bus about 9"x13" (large solid white area). i thinned the ink with about 25% reducer. when the screen is in up position, the ink runs down the screen.


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## drscotty14 (Mar 23, 2011)

what consistency should the ryonet white be for 205 mesh? should i thin down to the consistency of latex paint maybe? then only add to screen sparingly so it doesnt drip out of screen when in up position? 

also, i have had this gallon of ink for about 3 years. i used to put the reducer in the whole bucket for 2 years. now i mix in seperate pint container. is it bad to put it in the whole gallon? 

does a thinker stencil (2/1 or extra face coats) help alot with rough or fiber texture with white ink? or does it just help to print in less storkes?


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## abchung (Jul 16, 2009)

I don't like to use reducer in my inks.
If you put too much reducer, the ink will not sit on top of the fabric. It will just flow into the holes, which means more of the fibre will stick through the layer of ink.

1. Get a coarser mesh.
2. Have a thicker stencil (dry shirt side down). So more ink can lay on top of the fabric.
3. Stir the ink and warm up the ink to 30 Celcius so it will be runny.
4. Use a fill stroke to fill in the stencil.
5. Use just enough pressure so the ink and shirt grabs onto each other. If you use too much pressure the ink will be driven into the fabric which will lead to fibres sticking out of the ink.
6. Don't forget. the squeegee is to cut the ink of the stencil, not push ink into the fabric.

good luck.
6.


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## MarielAviles (Jan 4, 2012)

If you're printing on a cotton substrate I would recommend to print Epic Sprint White. It's quite creamy and will give you a smooth surface and great opacity. You may want to go with a medium stroke.


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## drscotty14 (Mar 23, 2011)

i think its either stencil thickness or ink too thick or both. i usually coat 1/1 sharp side of scoop coater for emulsion. im reading some people coat 2/2 wet on wet and get a thicker stencil. my stencils are usually really thin. im going to try a thicker stencil. can you guys tell me your coating method? slow of fast stroke?


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## BobMotep (Jan 21, 2013)

If I were printing that design I would be using no higher than a 133 mesh...I don't see any detail in that art that would require a 200 mesh screen. 

Next, I would be using Wilflex Quick White...it is super creamy and can get through up to a 305 mesh easy and the "Quick" part of the name means it flashes quickly which helps if you are underbasing something.

I would then flood, print and check to see if the ink is clearing the screen and maybe print again (NO flood) in case I was pushing weak on one side. Then flash, flood, print. What I would have is a bright white that has soft hand and neither bullet proof nor chunkaliscious.

The right white ink is the greatest debate in screenprinting. It sounds like your ink is too thick so you add reducer and get shiny runny ink that is not opaque. I have never personally tried Ryonet's white ink but I have given other printers that use it samples of the Wilflex Quick White ink and they are converted. 

I've never heard of treating ink like a cake mix and beating it for a minute....is it because your ink is like taffy and you are trying to loosen it up before printing? Wilflex's Sprint and Quick white just require a quick couple of stirs and you are ready to go. 

***Additional troubleshooting info***

The off contact should be no more than the height of a coin for a tee shirt...put a shirt on the pallet, lower the screen then squat down and look at the spacing. If your screen is flush to the tee then you have been screen mashing and that can also cause the screen to stick to the tee and fluff up the fibers of the tee when you lift the screen up.

Soft fluffy tees like Sanmar branded ones fluff up faster than Gildan, Hanes or Jerzees...smooth compacted fibers in the tee stay put during the printing process. 

If you are flashing w/ aluminum pallets sometimes the pallets can get too hot causing the ink to start to cure on the tee as soon as its printed which can also give you the stucco texture to your print.

Good luck and I hope some of the above helped in some way.


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## 20vK (Jul 9, 2011)

Ok - if you are using Ryonet white, that stuff is as thick as my ex business partner. Yes, majorly thick.

Since you are a Ryonet customer, get yourself some IC 7500 white. I use this on a manual workhorse, even though it is plugged as an auto Pantone ink. You can literally chuck this onto the screen and print straight away, although I like to mix the top inch in the pot, just to get it going. Maybe 15 seconds of mixing.....if I can be bothered.

I use this with 156 and 230 no probs...... On statics. For those suggesting raise off contact - really? At 40 newtons of tension? That shouldn't be necessary. Newmans should allow you to lower off contact. Ryonet white is well known to be super thick. I've not had any real success with it.

I can get a smooth white with 7500 ink and a 230. It's not the mesh count. I use nothing under 156 because I hate heavy thick prints. Plus it's a waste of ink, IMHO, unless you are doing specialty prints.

If you don't cure the initial flash layer enough it will stick to your screen and pull up, but I think this is just down to toffee ink. Even my black ryonet ink feels thick compared to my IC 7500 ink. I do butt reg prints and coverage is fine, with no "sinking" of ink into fabrics.


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## 59graphix (Aug 14, 2011)

We use Union Bright Cotton White on all our cotton shirts. Almost always 200 mesh, sometimes 160 depending on the design. We rarely reduce it. Very creamy and good coverage with print, flash, print with 1 stroke flood and 1 stroke clear. Then after flash, one stroke, no flood. Best ink I've used for cotton.


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## 20vK (Jul 9, 2011)

IC 7500 is thinner than that ..... Although cotton white is a breeze compared to ryonet ink. I'd still go for the IC 7500


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## Tj Ryonet Tech (Jul 28, 2008)

Make sure you have proper off-contact. If you are too low the ink can't release from the screen. Even if it is reduced if the screen is on the garment you won't get a good print especially with a white ink.


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## drscotty14 (Mar 23, 2011)

ok so i tired again. this time a thicker stencil. emulsion 2/2 wet on wet. now i can pfp and be done. used to have to pfpfp to get solid white with thin stencil. its smoother now but not acceptable for me (must heat press after). i think im narrowing it down now though. i have a 4 station press but i only have 1 platen on it right now. i think since im only using 1 platen it gets hot from always getting flashed. is this a no no? has anyone has success with just 1 platen?


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## 59graphix (Aug 14, 2011)

drscotty14 said:


> ok so i tired again. this time a thicker stencil. emulsion 2/2 wet on wet. now i can pfp and be done. used to have to pfpfp to get solid white with thin stencil. its smoother now but not acceptable for me (must heat press after). i think im narrowing it down now though. i have a 4 station press but i only have 1 platen on it right now. i think since im only using 1 platen it gets hot from always getting flashed. is this a no no? has anyone has success with just 1 platen?



You say you use a thicker stencil. We coat our screens with 1 coat each side with a sharp edge unless we need something for a special effects print. You need a sharp edge squeegee (70 Durometer) and maybe practice at different angles holding the squeegee. 
One light flood stroke, then with slow, even pressure, push the next stroke. Screen surface should be clear of ink.
Maybe your white just sucks. You should only need to flash once even with a 205 mesh screen.
Yes your platen will get hot and probably need to cool down but if you flash at 3-5 seconds max (which is what the Union inks and most quality inks will flash at) you should be able to run at least a few dozen before it's to hot.
Our presses run 8 stations with 8 colors so this is never an issue for us.
Is your flash hot enough? How much distance from the platen is the flash?
Minimal off contact if your screens are tight. Do you push or pull the squeegee?
You could probably print this with a 110 or maybe less and print a flood, print, print and not even need to flash. We have done this with Union EZ Print White. It's made for low bleed but covers great on dark's with this method.

Hope any of this will help!

Good luck!


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## DNeeld (Sep 8, 2010)

drscotty14 said:


> ok so i tired again. this time a thicker stencil. emulsion 2/2 wet on wet. now i can pfp and be done. used to have to pfpfp to get solid white with thin stencil. its smoother now but not acceptable for me (must heat press after). i think im narrowing it down now though. i have a 4 station press but i only have 1 platen on it right now. i think since im only using 1 platen it gets hot from always getting flashed. is this a no no? has anyone has success with just 1 platen?


You are flashing too long and not letting the print cool enough before reprinting. Yep, it really is that simple. 

Especially only using 1 pallet, your flash time is going to decrease rapidly once the pallet gets warmed up.


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## drscotty14 (Mar 23, 2011)

i push. my flash gets hot enough. i have it about 3-4 inches above shirt. i do a fast push stroke. is it better to do a slow stroke on large white areas?


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## 20vK (Jul 9, 2011)

I'm not so sure on flashing too long - but agree that you need to let it cool enough before you try another print.

My white flash is about 8 seconds for the first print and 10 for a second flash on a second print. I have 6 platens and that is normally enough time to cool before printing again.

I normally find under flashing is more of an issue for sticky screens than over flashing. Over flashing concerns me when I'm printing a second layer of ink.


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## DNeeld (Sep 8, 2010)

drscotty14 said:


> i push. my flash gets hot enough. i have it about 3-4 inches above shirt. i do a fast push stroke. is it better to do a slow stroke on large white areas?


On a manual, your stroke speed isn't going to make all that much difference.

Seriously, you are flashing the first print too long. Reduce your flash time by one second each try until you get a smooth second print. If you can't get a smooth second print before your first print isn't flashed properly (still wet to the touch), then decrease the temperature of your flash a little (or raise it a small amount if you don't have temp control), and start again.


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## DNeeld (Sep 8, 2010)

Ok, for a bit more detail so you don't think I'm off my rocker, here is what is happening and why you are getting a rough print:

You are not shearing the ink enough through the screen. This is a combination of too high a mesh count, not enough print pressure, and improper off-contact. Its up to you to decide which is the greatest factor causing improper ink clearing for you. My guess would be the 205 mesh screen and the fact that you won't get enough pressure to shear a white ink properly on a manual with a mesh count this high. Of course lowering mesh count often results in the kevlar effect meaning your print has now become so thick it is bulletproof.

Anyway. So, what happens is when the screen meets the shirt and ink transfer occurs, the ink isn't leaving the stencil completely, so when you lift the screen again, the ink that remains in the stencil pulls against the ink that is left on the shirt, creating a series of little peaks. They are there on the first print, just so small you can't see them.

Now you flash the ink, pretty much locking it in place as is. You print the second print, and the same thing happens. The effect, however, is greatly magnified on the second print, sometimes up to as much as 200%. This is what results in the rough print, or "fur" as we used to call it here.

So, reduce your flash time, so the bottom coat is simply gelled and not locked. Now when you print the second print, you basically smush all the peaks from the first print back down and the second print lays on top. It will still be rough, but it will be rough in the way the first print was rough. In other words, so subtle you won't notice it.

For a long term solution, figure out what mesh counts you need to be using with what artwork and achieve a proper shear to begin with.

In the meantime, it is simply easy and faster to say "Stop flashing so long".


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