# Greyscale print (Halftones)



## TYGERON (Apr 26, 2009)

This was done as 4 values/colors. 

White underbase, 2 Greys, Highlight White and Black.

40lpi with 200 mesh.

Just became fascinated with printing on cardstock for some reason. First pic is on paper, then Texas Orange and Dark Heather.


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## mikelmorgan (Nov 1, 2008)

Cool print.


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## cyclesurgeon (Sep 10, 2010)

did you consider skipping the underbase and letting the orange come through and highlight the skin areas? I think the effect would be eye catching...just a thought.


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## NoXid (Apr 4, 2011)

Nice!

So hook two of these together with loops of string and start selling decorated sandwich boards instead of Ts?


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## TYGERON (Apr 26, 2009)

cyclesurgeon said:


> did you consider skipping the underbase and letting the orange come through and highlight the skin areas? I think the effect would be eye catching...just a thought.


Doctor!

Great minds  You know I thought just that but haven't taken time to play.


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## porkchopharry (Mar 4, 2012)

It looks great TYGERON, and coincidentally I've been thinking about toying with printing on some large cardstock. And also trying to print on some regular old material (like a bolt of cotton or something) to make my own acoustic panels for my "theater" set-up and my "vinyl room". I'm kind of an A/V freak in my spare time. 

You ever try printing on a larger scaled material? Like 24x48 or 36x48 or something? I guess I could make a table and clamp set-up and find larger screens? Or print in sections? 

It's kind of a "long-term" project that I am thinking on. 

Also, what kind of ink are you using to print on card-stock? I was thinking about just using the WB that I use on garments.


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## TYGERON (Apr 26, 2009)

porkchopharry said:


> It looks great TYGERON, and coincidentally I've been thinking about toying with printing on some large cardstock. Also, what kind of ink are you using to print on card-stock?


 Thanks Andy.

The largest thing I've printed was an 8X sweatshirt and it was a task! 

I just used standard plastisol, flashing between colors.

And I've only done it a few times just for fun. Nothing I really want to get into.


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## porkchopharry (Mar 4, 2012)

I'm thinking of doing it for fun for the acoustic panels. I was mulling it over today, and in order to even do a large screen, I would have to either have a REALLY big transparency  , or do them in sections. Or do the print in sections too I guess. 

Doing them on cardstock - poster sized, might be more to sell as well as fun. For the rare times I do something with a bit of detail. Like a halftone or something.


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## TYGERON (Apr 26, 2009)

OK. That does sound like fun.

Which ever way you go, post some pics when you do.


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## porkchopharry (Mar 4, 2012)

It's a "long term" project. But the acoustic panels are something I've wanted to do for a long time to tame the frequency response of my sound systems in my rooms where I have some gear set up. Well..just two rooms.

Thing with acoustic panels is they are easy enough to make. But they're usually kind of ugly. I had the idea of printing on the covering you might use to cover the things. Sometimes they use stuff like cotton, or burlap, etc. You know...to make it look more like art. Rather than a giant black (or whatever color) panel sitting on the walls. 

I googled around recently and discovered there's places doing it now. I'm sure they're doing DTG. And they're REALLY expensive. A good sized acoustic panel would be about 2' x 4'-ish. 

I figured hey I could do that. And probably do it better. Even do halftone images of our dogs or whatever.

ANyway, I'm rambling at this point and didn't mean to derail your thread. I'll post something when I get around to finally doing them. 

Nice prints though.


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## FullSpectrumSeps (Aug 2, 2012)

TYGERON said:


> This was done as 4 values/colors.
> 
> White underbase, 2 Greys, Highlight White and Black.
> 
> ...


Great prints Tygeron!

I'm curious what halftone angles did you use?

For greyscale separations I always use halftone-interlocking which can be performed manually quite easily on such greyscale blends. 

If you like I can send you some free scripts or the entire toolkit plugin to generate your greyscale separations all the way to halftone interlock rip with a single click. I have sepped and printed lots of these without doing any manual separation or adjustment, perhaps a halftone choke or trap, or a curve adjustment before running the sep to control or compensate dot-gain etc, although the really fun part with greyscale and even color separations is you can use your inks like levels/curves controls on press to change the outcome if so desired... even a standard linear greyscale sep with black-medium grey-white gives you control depending on what tone you make the grey -- lighten it and it lightens your whole image, darken the grey and you'll have it go the other way, almost like have a photoshop levels control on your press, lol. Add a slight amount of color to the grey, or use a color completely and you start making artistic variations or scientific compensations on press all with the same seps/screens. 

Greyscales with interlocking halftones should really be an industry standard in my opinion. Compensation/linearization curves can be applied before or after the seps and still achieve interlocking or trapping. 

Let me know, this goes for anyone else who wants to test the plugin for free as well, just PM me. Peace!


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## TYGERON (Apr 26, 2009)

Thanks Jeff.

22.5 on all. No RIP bitmap halftones.

I see you PM'd me.

I'll get back later.


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## ShirlandDesign (Nov 29, 2009)

Just curious, why not get all of your greys with one black halftone? Also were you happy with the way the halftones printed on the under base ? The last time I tried that the shirt looked rough compared to the pellon. I can post scans to illustrate.


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## chuckh (Mar 22, 2008)

Jeff

tried to PM you but wasn't able to do so. I would like some info on that plug in if the offer is still on the table.

Thanks!


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## FullSpectrumSeps (Aug 2, 2012)

chuckh said:


> Jeff
> 
> tried to PM you but wasn't able to do so. I would like some info on that plug in if the offer is still on the table.
> 
> Thanks!


Hey sure thing, I'm not sure why it does that I have looked through all the settings but I will PM you my contact info.


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## Fresh Prints (Apr 13, 2011)

Same here Jeff,
tried to PM you also.


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## TYGERON (Apr 26, 2009)

ShirlandDesign said:


> Just curious, why not get all of your greys with one black halftone? Also were you happy with the way the halftones printed on the under base ? The last time I tried that the shirt looked rough compared to the pellon. I can post scans to illustrate.


 Figured I get more tonal variation. I could have just used Black and may try it but I'd have to adjust the underbase and maybe use a finer mesh count and higher frequency and actually know what I'm doing .

I used a standard White so it went down pretty smoothly.

This is where young whippersnappers Sean or Jeff interject to split this old man's head about reducing colors, interlocking halftones, compensating for dot gain etc


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## ShirlandDesign (Nov 29, 2009)

Once you get a feel for the lay of the land there is an incredible amount of skill, knowledge and talent here, I have to keep telling myself "self, you are standing on the shoulders of giants...... or at least trying to climb up to the shoulders". 

I was printing a shirt a little while back trying to simulate chrome on a white under base. The pellon pulled real clean, the first shirt not so clean. I searched the forums and found that the peaks and valleys from the ink set up an interference pattern. I am embarrassed to admit all of the hoops I jumped through to get a usable print. I'm talking ironing the under base using a piece of transfer paper, hot peeling, and even then if the black wasn't running thin, poor quality.

There must be a better way.


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## FullSpectrumSeps (Aug 2, 2012)

TYGERON said:


> Figured I get more tonal variation. I could have just used Black and may try it but I'd have to adjust the underbase and maybe use a finer mesh count and higher frequency and actually know what I'm doing .
> 
> I used a standard White so it went down pretty smoothly.
> 
> This is where young whippersnappers Sean or Jeff interject to split this old man's head about reducing colors, interlocking halftones, compensating for dot gain etc


It has taken me a while to learn this, but it comes down to a matter of the quality-at-viewing-distance you're going for, as well as the actual colors attainable between an ink and other inks blending it... for example an orange blended by red-yellow depending on those inks may or may not be as bright or the same as using an orange ink there...
Plus at smaller scales of parts of the image on the print, it would be red/yellow dots interlocking or overprinting rather than clean spots of orange dots...

Same with greyscales... plus the added control over the blend-point in grey or colors as their own inks...

But its not about "necessity", just those quality and scale/fidelity factors.

Really opens up things for both spot-/low-color count, and high-end multi-color methods when you know how and why, not just forced into a box for lack of tools or information available. 

Planning on getting a GoPro camera soon and just strapping it on as I run around the shop like a chicken without a head, from art to seps to films to screens to press etc, so many things play a role in a great quality-controlled and calibrated setup, no matter the advanced tools or techniques it is how it all chains together that makes any sense to it. 

I often print greyscales with the grey so I can control the gain and tonal level with what grey I'm using, light or dark, or adding color for effect.

You can do fun artistic things on press that way, then repeat them because of the science on the other end. It goes back and forth but knowing where to place the human decisions and where to have the science/math do the leg-work is what breaks the chains of limitation free for whatever you do.


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## sben763 (May 17, 2009)

TYGERON said:


> Figured I get more tonal variation. I could have just used Black and may try it but I'd have to adjust the underbase and maybe use a finer mesh count and higher frequency and actually know what I'm doing .
> 
> I used a standard White so it went down pretty smoothly.
> 
> This is where young whippersnappers Sean or Jeff interject to split this old man's head about reducing colors, interlocking halftones, compensating for dot gain etc


I don't condsider myself a young whippersnapper. 44.

Jeff has given me a lot of the guidance wether he knows it or not as well as Tom. I think we all can learn something from each other. If I had the money I'd go to the Minds Eye Graphics with Greg Kitsion and Richard Greaves plus I think it's sold out. Not really to learn but more to see how the other side does things as well as the shops that are going to be there. 

Have another few days of testing the new exposure unit but this thing is producing results I never expected.


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## TYGERON (Apr 26, 2009)

sben763 said:


> I don't condsider myself a young whippersnapper. 44.
> 
> If I had the money I'd go to the Minds Eye Graphics with Greg Kitsion and Richard Greaves plus I think it's sold out.
> 
> Have another few days of testing the new exposure unit but this thing is producing results I never expected.


44? I guess you just post young  And I got a few on you, son. Haaa-haaa!

Hadn't heard about the Mind's Eye thing. 

The LED exposure?


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## TYGERON (Apr 26, 2009)

FullSpectrumSeps said:


> Planning on getting a GoPro camera soon and just strapping it on as I run around the shop like a chicken without a head, from art to seps to films to screens to press etc, ...


 *Wow, like surfing or extreme downhill skiing!

*


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## FullSpectrumSeps (Aug 2, 2012)

TYGERON said:


> *Wow, like surfing or extreme downhill skiing!
> 
> *


LOL, maybe for screenprint freaks like us it is that same level of excitement! 

Do I have to come up with a new brand name that out-does all the other gimmicks? 

Let's see... Ultra is taken, Rapid is taken, Quick, T, Simple, Screen....

EXTREME-SEPS ? 

I think Mega-Super-Extreme-Infinite-Eternal-Universal-GO-PRO-Seps could be a real game-changer.


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## TYGERON (Apr 26, 2009)

FullSpectrumSeps said:


> LOL, maybe for screenprint freaks like us it is that same level of excitement!
> 
> Do I have to come up with a new brand name that out-does all the other gimmicks?
> 
> ...


Seriously, I've said that I could sit and watch an auto print for hours. And when a print job comes together well on press I still get a rush after all these years.

I might need to get out more 

And whenever you get to naming, you already have the perfect name. 

FullSpectrumSeps  (Keep it run together just like your forum name)


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## ShirlandDesign (Nov 29, 2009)

> And when a print job comes together well on press I still get a rush after all these years.


Have you ever seen a halftone print really clean on an underbase?


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## TYGERON (Apr 26, 2009)

ShirlandDesign said:


> Have you ever seen a halftone print really clean on an underbase?


 Lightly gelled/flashed base
Tight mesh
Good off contact
A bit steeper than "normal" squeegee angle
Fast, smooth print stroke

Booyah!


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## sben763 (May 17, 2009)

ShirlandDesign said:


> Have you ever seen a halftone print really clean on an underbase?


I pray everyday to see one, then I know there always hope tomorrow.


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## FullSpectrumSeps (Aug 2, 2012)

sben763 said:


> I pray everyday to see one, then I know there always hope tomorrow.


Best thing I ever learned / taught myself to do (not that others have not learned or taught themselves or found the information somewhere) -- was to create the halftones for the color and the halftones for the base as the same ramp (dot-gain controlled if you can) - but then, with the same halftone screens, you CHOKE the Underbase Dots, 1, 2, or more pixels... 

So that the halftones of the color are trapped/overlapping the base dots, some of them will be by themselves where small base dots get deleted from the choke operation, but the opacity of those dots in a typical plasitsol ink end up holding the desired fade-into-shirt effect you want, and underbase is only under the main brighter parts of the blend.

Even DTG rips get this completely wrong for making white underlay, mostly because they are doing too high in the DPI of the diffusion RIP and then you can never line up the dots in the same places... DTG would be better with interlock sep and rip at high LPI actually - better saturations and coverage and the way all the fades work with each other and over that underbase.

Any other method leaves much to be desired in terms of accuracy and appearance - the "ghosting" effect of a poorly made underbase for color fades into the shirt color is one of the most common separation-mistakes I see routinely, no matter how "high-end" the separator or printer is, if you have white dots for underbase of a color fading to shirt and no color dots overlapping those, then you're simply doing it wrong.

Choke underbase dots, you will be impressed with how much easier it is to get a great print fading to shirt color (common for using black as shirt color in full color prints on black shirts), as well as how nice (correct) it looks. 

This and many other reasons are why separations are not just the gradient-ramps of the color blends you're using, but also the entire other half of the picture is the actual halftone image you're trying to render it as, and "blind RIP" is like the worst way to use a modern computer system for pre-press simulation/separation... instead of having a WYSIWYG model (What you see is what you get) - it is like all these people take the computer and put blinders on it and cross their fingers, press print on the films and go to screens, go to press, etc etc.. and then what... Hope? Pray? Light some shirts on fire and dance around with squeegees to appease the t-shirt god? 

Using computers in a process such as this, and doing insane things like Blind-Ripping (not seeing your halftones before you print them, especially all the combinations or working with them as halftone screens) -- is like not much different than going to your press once the job is all set up and putting a blind-fold on and just printing the whole order with never looking at it while you do it. Would you do that while on press?? Why would we ever do that when making and printing separations and halftone RIP output then?? Only because of the slow evolution of screenprint, on its own or compared to other print methods.

A lot of other print methods, there is some stage at which halftone RIP preview in the digital domain takes place well before any making of films or plates or setting up press. 

Screenprint has a lot of catching up to do, because in my opinion it is the world's greatest printing method which can surpass all other print methods in thousands of critical quality variables. Yes screenprinting is better than your inkjet photo printer, yes screenprinting is better than a digital DTG printer. It is a fact easily proven day in and day out if you just have the right elements in place to meet the amazing potential capacity of such a versatile and magnificent pattern-reproduction-technique. 

Why have I not seen anyone try a 3-color process CMY print??


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## ShirlandDesign (Nov 29, 2009)

> I pray everyday to see one, then I know there always hope tomorrow.


On a different thread a poster said that a higher mesh count screen on the "top coat" of the under base would clear the problem up. Any experience along those lines?


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## TYGERON (Apr 26, 2009)

ShirlandDesign said:


> On a different thread a poster said that a higher mesh count screen on the "top coat" of the under base would clear the problem up. Any experience along those lines?


I wanted to post that that was not a _definitive _cure all. May work, may not. There was no clear cause of the problem and too many other variables to consider.


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## ShirlandDesign (Nov 29, 2009)

The pellon and the shirt are both at the other shop. I'll scan and post next week. The difference isn't huge, but it bugs the crap out of me.

The screens are static aluminum and probably @ 20 npc, the squeegees are fairly sharp 70/90/70's. 

It seems like something I need to figure out before getting to much farther into doing Chanel seps.

Oh, and also I have a Car show shirt to design, all the time in the world to get it done, and after the "no being mean thread" I'm pretty hot to do the very best I can with it and put it out for peer review. I use the word "peer" in a loose sort of way.

As I've stated before, I wear a lot of hats, but I try my best to grow in all areas of endeavor, and appreciate the big dogs here letting a mere pup try and keep up.


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## TYGERON (Apr 26, 2009)

ShirlandDesign said:


> As I've stated before, I wear a lot of hats, but I try my best to grow in all areas of endeavor...


Do you know this guy?


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## Celtic (Feb 19, 2008)

NICE Ron!
I haven't been on the forum lately, and look what I missed!!!
Really beautiful my friend. 
Sweet detail too.
I especially like it on the orange.


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## ShirlandDesign (Nov 29, 2009)

> Do you know this guy?


I am that guy, plus a couple of hats and a couple of pounds. lol


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## TYGERON (Apr 26, 2009)

Celtic said:


> NICE Ron!
> I haven't been on the forum lately, and look what I missed!!!
> Really beautiful my friend.
> Sweet detail too.
> I especially like it on the orange.


 Deniiiiiise!! 

Thank you!

And you've been missed.

You know I submitted it for a supplier contest. I was REALLY taken by the Orange but I sent the Dark Heather. Why didn't you tell me better??

Looking back, I could've sent both.

Oh, and I didn't win 

I been drinking a lot of Hater-Aid and eating Peanut Butter and Jealous sandwiches.


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## TYGERON (Apr 26, 2009)

ShirlandDesign said:


> The pellon and the shirt are both at the other shop. I'll scan and post next week.
> 
> Oh, and also I have a Car show shirt to design, all the time in the world to get it done,


 Hey John. Isn't it getting close to "next week"?

And are you looking for some inspiration for the car show design?

Don't go here if you don't want to be tainted. 

www.motorsportsillustrated.com


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## ShirlandDesign (Nov 29, 2009)

Already working off a couple "studies" on the car shirt, soon. Chrome halftone, pellon and under based T tomorrow. 

It's my first shot at a "Car Show" car from a photo, so don't expect anything approaching a Lemmoris, but feedback and pointers are always welcome.


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## ShirlandDesign (Nov 29, 2009)

I never noticed before the "Being Nice" thread, but reflected horizon lines on windshields run 90 degrees cc out of phase. I Tried it the other way and it definitely looked wrong. This is as far as I've gotten on the car so far, the layout has a bunch of "have to" elements I'll work out later. Tyger, the link you posted was great, but I don't have the luxury of using multiple cars like alot of the car show shirts do, in fact the manager of the shop would probably make an issue of how much production value I'm putting in the shirt anyway. 

The interference pattern on the scan of the Audi shirt looks less course in the scan than I felt it was earlier, I don't know, your mind gets sometimes overly critical and, or overly sympathetic on subjective matters depending on the temperature of the climate at the time.


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## TYGERON (Apr 26, 2009)

ShirlandDesign said:


> This is as far as I've gotten on the car so far...


Is it done yet?
Is it done yet?
Is it done yet?
Is it done yet?
Is it done yet?
Is it done yet?
Is it done yet?


You'll have to post a step-by-step when you get done.

The cars/vehicles are awesome but I'm really taken by some of the background motifs and additional graphics.

So you scanned the Audi logo from a printed T then trimmed the background?


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## ShirlandDesign (Nov 29, 2009)

I've got the elements mostly done, the lettering blended, and after the car gets the front end, trim, tires and rims detailed out I'll start cutting and pasting the shirt together. Then we'll see what treatment is needed to finish out the design. Step by step to follow soon after.

Yup, scanned and trimmed the Audi, you can see some of the shirt coming through the black Audi, I always promise my self to use a separate screen for the halftone, and nearly always cheap out and try to letter and halftone in one screen. You can't really make it out on the scans, but the under based halftone is just coarser than the one with out an under base.

Today is back to web site pricing, tomorrow, shop maintenance (my shop) not the the day jobs, Monday a couple fair sized embroidery runs (day jobs) not mine, and hopefully Tuesday, some more play time with the car shirt.


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## akirostyle (Apr 5, 2015)

sorry this is a little unrelated but how do you attach images to your thread, just like you have done here on this post


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## ShirlandDesign (Nov 29, 2009)

Scroll down to "Manage Attachments" to upload art


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## TYGERON (Apr 26, 2009)

ShirlandDesign said:


> Yup, scanned and trimmed the Audi, you can see some of the shirt coming through the black Audi...


 Something to add to your already full plate.

For when your mind finds time to get overly critical 

I got a chill when he connected the circles 

https://youtu.be/EcmUpQgi-x4


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## ShirlandDesign (Nov 29, 2009)

Smart fill is the bomb. 

One of the girls in the shop advised me that "the Bomb" is very passe. The new "bomb" is "the $hit"


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## TYGERON (Apr 26, 2009)

Wait. What happened to "the shiznit"?

And I've actually gone back to "dope"


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## ShirlandDesign (Nov 29, 2009)

> dope


Your dating yourself, you might as well be saying "fly". 

Of course dope might be so dated it's come back around and is "Fresh" again.

I remember peace signs, the second and third go round.

What I don't get is dude being applied to chicks, that's just wrong...stupiculous.


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## ShirlandDesign (Nov 29, 2009)

Okay, so I've had a chance to work the car shirt up to... oh, about half done. I've been given loads of time to play with this one so I'm enjoying the rare opportunity to have fun with the process rather than bangin it out.

The layouts pretty close to laid out, all of the have to's have been included, and the type has been roughed in (the faux chrome effect needs a bunch of work).

A poster from the "not being mean" thread commented that he didn't care for "floating" type. That doesn't bother me at all, but the floating car bugs the hell out of me. The problem I see with giving it a shadow to anchor it is that it would interfere with the Pontiac emblem. 

Also, the "Faux chrome" type is kind of a cop out, but I've tried other blends that didn't work out near as well, and solid color fills are kind of flat, so any ideas or suggestions?

The color of the car is a "have to", I don't really think it is all that strong an element of the whole.

We are printing this on a 6 color press.


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## TYGERON (Apr 26, 2009)

I was giving a few more days before I started in on you again about this 

First thing that caught my attention was the car color.
It just doesn't seem to flow with the other elements.
There's the metallic-ness of the backgrounds and the warm-ness of the car. Instead of White-Grey-Blue reflections, how about using Dark Orange-Yellow Gold-Brown or something that ties the car in with the text and graphics?


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## ShirlandDesign (Nov 29, 2009)

> how about using Dark Orange-Yellow Gold-Brown or something that ties the car in with the text and graphics?


That's a good thought, does the floating car mess with you the way it does me?

Tim you out there? Chime in dude, you've got good input (for a damn Yankee, that is).


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## TYGERON (Apr 26, 2009)

ShirlandDesign said:


> That's a good thought, does the floating car mess with you the way it does me?


 Nah, not really.

I think the "Miller" could be stretched a bit and enveloped some kinda like the "Bring Your Ride" text at the bottom.


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## ShirlandDesign (Nov 29, 2009)

Rhododáktylos Ēṓs?


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## TYGERON (Apr 26, 2009)

*How about a little more Orange-ness throughout?*


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## TYGERON (Apr 26, 2009)

On second thought, nix the right with the Red outline.

TOO much color


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## chuckh (Mar 22, 2008)

I think the image on the left looks great. I'm a stickler for type though, so I would kern Miller and all the type on the right side. MArc is fine and so is the Bring your ride. The other text is just too tight and not clean IMHO.


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## ShirlandDesign (Nov 29, 2009)

So, back to the type. Went to Google image and searched chrome type to see some of the techniques trending around and came up with the attachment below. So there's chrome and then there is chrome right? $8 add on for CS1 saying you can have this level of production value at the click of a mouse. Anyone here use the "biker chrome" affects package? I run an ancient version of Photoshop, but I'm certainly not opposed to upgrading, and the $8 is negligeable. It's not like I would have a huge demand for doing this kind of lettering on a day to day basis, and color separating is another matter all together. But damn, type like that at the touch of a button for 8 bucks....feedback please.


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