# (HELP) EPSON 9880 vs MUTOH RJ900C-Pro



## dirtworks (Feb 21, 2012)

Hi guys, I'm totally noob to dye sublimation. I'm planning to buy a printer and stuck between these two: EPSON 9880 and MUTOH RJ900C-Pro. These machines are going to be my workhorse for motocross and cycling jersey production. Which one would you guys recommend in terms of image sharpness and durability? Thanks.


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## Riderz Ready (Sep 18, 2008)

The three wide format printers you most hear about now for dye sub is the Epson 9700, Epson 9880 and The Mutoh RJ900.

We have used the Epson 9800 and currently using the Mutoh RJ900. There seems to be a big buzz around the 9700 as it is supposed to be fast. Never used it but I know our ink supplier is experienced with them - more info contact [email protected]digitally-driven.com

If it was my first large format printer I would go with an Epson. Fewer issues to deal with and the paper handling and ink handling is way way better. The Mutoh has the paper and ink cartridges in the back of the printer. A bit of a pain unless you have the room where it does not need to be backed up to a wall. The worst thing about the Mutoh is how the paper comes off the print head. On the Epson it comes out the bottom at an angle. On the Mutoh it comes straight out the front parallel to the floor. What happens is as it starts to bend down from gravity it cause a lift of the paper behind it which cause head strikes. There are all sorts of solutions on the web but when you spend that much money on a printer should you really need to rig something up? One solution by Mutoh was to unscrew some sheet metal from the front of the printer, bend it to an angle than tape the exposed edge so you do not cut yourself? Seriously - I just spent this much money and that is a solution?

The other drawback to the Mutoh is there are no local service guys unless you happen to be located in one of their service center locations. Big negative especially for warranty work. You would have to pay for someone to fly out to fix your printer under warranty. Cheaper to hire a third party vendor to do the work.

Speaking of warranty - we purchased ours from Graphic One. We had an issue with dampers. We were told flat out that if we were not using their ink they would not warranty any of the ink delivery system. Unreal. Thankfully it only cost us a couple hundred to have a local vendor come out and replace them but again a total mess.

With Epson you call a 800 number for service and they have prearranged local service guys that come out and do the work.

I do not hate the Mutoh but if this was my first wide format printer I would be at a loss with the issues that come with it.


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## Coastalrich (Jun 24, 2009)

dirtworks said:


> Hi guys, I'm totally noob to dye sublimation. I'm planning to buy a printer and stuck between these two: EPSON 9880 and MUTOH RJ900C-Pro. These machines are going to be my workhorse for motocross and cycling jersey production. Which one would you guys recommend in terms of image sharpness and durability? Thanks.


Either printer will work for your sublimation printing. The colors, sharpness and durability of your apparel will be great with each solution provided you work with a vendor that can furnish you with the right ink, paper, and profile solutions.

The Epson 9880 is a legacy Epson printer but will work fine for your process. The Epson has chipped and pressurized cartridges and is considerably slower than the RJ 900. Also consider that Epson does not support any of their printers for sublimation. If you are considering a new printer, then you should consider the Epson 9700 that prints beautifully with speeds faster than the Mutoh


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## dirtworks (Feb 21, 2012)

Thanks to both of you, I think I will go for Epson 9700. 

Other questions are: 
1. Why Epson doesn't support any of their printers for sublimation? Does sublimation printing would give more damage to the machine? I heard the print head alone cost USD 1200 here in my country. Is that the reason? 
2. What is the best RIP software for my motocross and cycling jersey production? My supplier offering me the Wasatch SP RIP software in the package, is that suitable for my application? Because I saw on Wasatch website, the have the SoftRIP TX that specialized for textile printing, do you think that's better? 
Thanks again....


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## Coastalrich (Jun 24, 2009)

dirtworks said:


> Thanks to both of you, I think I will go for Epson 9700.
> 
> Other questions are:
> 1. Why Epson doesn't support any of their printers for sublimation? Does sublimation printing would give more damage to the machine? I heard the print head alone cost USD 1200 here in my country. Is that the reason?
> ...


The Wasatch Soft RIP SP will work just fine for your apparel decoration. The textile version is not necessary and will not get you any better results.

Epson only supports their printers using Epson inks. Since sublimation ink is a 3rd party ink they will not honor any warranty on the equipment. Many people get around this by re-installing the Epson inks before a service call.


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## dirtworks (Feb 21, 2012)

Coastalrich said:


> The Wasatch Soft RIP SP will work just fine for your apparel decoration. The textile version is not necessary and will not get you any better results.
> 
> Epson only supports their printers using Epson inks. Since sublimation ink is a 3rd party ink they will not honor any warranty on the equipment. Many people get around this by re-installing the Epson inks before a service call.


Wow great answers I'm very happy with that and thanks for the tips. Now I'm fully confident... Thanks again...btw AFAIK there are two 9700s...one is 9700 and the other one is 9700 Hybrid, which one is more suitable for me?


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## Riderz Ready (Sep 18, 2008)

Coastalrich said:


> The Wasatch Soft RIP SP will work just fine for your apparel decoration. The textile version is not necessary and will not get you any better results.
> 
> Epson only supports their printers using Epson inks. Since sublimation ink is a 3rd party ink they will not honor any warranty on the equipment. Many people get around this by re-installing the Epson inks before a service call.


Epson is not the only one guilty of forcing consumers to use their ink or void the warranty. I understand some may claim this is against the law but against the law or not unless you have many to file suit it is a fact. This is an issue with Mutoh as well. 

We purchased our RJ 900 from Graphics One. Mutoh does not sell direct at least not a RJ900. We had a damper issue and was told since we were not using their dye sub ink they void all parts associated with the ink delivery system. Furthermore with Mutoh you better know if there is someone in your area that can fix them. The number of options is much smaller than with Epsons.


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## JaeAmera (Dec 25, 2006)

We are Epson people...I swear by them!! Five Large formats and all they have been is a pleasure. Sure there is maintenance as well as things you need to learn to keep them printing efficient and effective, but I have been really happy with Epson large format printers.

Again, I can't speak on maintenance cost, OEM ink costs, or warrenty support as all of that was thrown out the window at purchase due to using dye sub inks and performing in-house maintenance and part replacement.

Hope this helps,

Jae


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## Coastalrich (Jun 24, 2009)

Riderz Ready said:


> Epson is not the only one guilty of forcing consumers to use their ink or void the warranty. I understand some may claim this is against the law but against the law or not unless you have many to file suit it is a fact. This is an issue with Mutoh as well.
> 
> We purchased our RJ 900 from Graphics One. Mutoh does not sell direct at least not a RJ900. We had a damper issue and was told since we were not using their dye sub ink they void all parts associated with the ink delivery system. Furthermore with Mutoh you better know if there is someone in your area that can fix them. The number of options is much smaller than with Epsons.


I can understand the bad taste in your mouth on the Mutoh. The dampers are an integral part of the ink system and it is understandable that GO could not support another ink they are not familiar with. Did you go to your current ink supplier with that problem? The fact is the Mutoh is much easier to work on than the current Epsons. There are much simpler without all the complications of aftermarket chips and pressurized cartridges and have easy access to the maintenance station for routine clean ups.

This just points out that be it Epson or Mutoh that you need to deal with a reputable company that will support you with not only quality products but the technical support when something goes wrong.


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## sid (Oct 6, 2007)

We run 9800s, 9890s, 9900s, 7900s and Mutah RJ900c. Go with the Mutah. Unlike the Epsons the ink cartridges are visible and can be fill when running. Will hold the new rolls of Beaver Thermal Tack paper. The roll size is too fat to put into the Epson 900 series. Have not had a single issue with the Mutah in two years. Love it.


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## Riderz Ready (Sep 18, 2008)

Coastalrich said:


> I can understand the bad taste in your mouth on the Mutoh. The dampers are an integral part of the ink system and it is understandable that GO could not support another ink they are not familiar with. Did you go to your current ink supplier with that problem? The fact is the Mutoh is much easier to work on than the current Epsons. There are much simpler without all the complications of aftermarket chips and pressurized cartridges and have easy access to the maintenance station for routine clean ups.
> 
> This just points out that be it Epson or Mutoh that you need to deal with a reputable company that will support you with not only quality products but the technical support when something goes wrong.


So you are saying Graphics One is not reputable or J-Teck is not reputable? 

What do you do when a Mutoh is under warranty and a part fails and there is no service center in the state?

Although the Mutoh is easier to work on than an Epson it is very poorly designed when compared to an Epson. The paper is in the back of the printer as is the ink making it a challenge to replace the 400' rolls. Worse the paper handling is the worst I have ever seen on any printer never the less a production printer. When you have PDF's describing how to solve the paper issue that includes unscrewing sheet metal, bending it than putting tape on the exposed edge as to not cut your self you have a serious design issue.

Personally never had a issue with chips or the pressurized cartridges in three years of running the Epson 9800. Not saying they are an advantage but we never had an issue with them.

The Mutoh does what they say it does just very poorly designed, especially for a first time user of a wide format printer. It lacks service centers in most parts of the country. I live in the 6th largest city in the country with the closest service center in Cali.


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## Coastalrich (Jun 24, 2009)

Riderz Ready said:


> So you are saying Graphics One is not reputable or J-Teck is not reputable?
> 
> What do you do when a Mutoh is under warranty and a part fails and there is no service center in the state?
> 
> ...


I am only saying that where you buy the printer and your consumables matters. I cannot see GO supporting a printer that does not have their ink in it. How can you expect J-Teck to support a printer when they are purely an ink manufacturer? The whole package needs to include the dealer that can support your needs.

If one of our customers have a problem under warranty we will make sure it gets fixed at no cost to them. Period. After the warranty then we can supply the help to get the repair done either by the user, one of our techs or a 3rd party.

I don't know who made the .pdf you are talking about unscrewing and bending metal but I am sure that is not something that either Mutoh or we would support.

The straight paper path is an advantage for the Epson. But if you look at other "industrial" printers like the Rolands and Mimakis, the paper path is just like the Mutoh. There are other ways to deal what ever issue you have with the paper handling than the modification you described.

We have customers running the Mutoh's 24/7 that love them. I am glad you are an Epson fan but that doesn't make the Mutoh a bad machine for either the beginner or the experienced user


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## Riderz Ready (Sep 18, 2008)

Coastalrich said:


> I am only saying that where you buy the printer and your consumables matters. I cannot see GO supporting a printer that does not have their ink in it. How can you expect J-Teck to support a printer when they are purely an ink manufacturer? The whole package needs to include the dealer that can support your needs.
> 
> If one of our customers have a problem under warranty we will make sure it gets fixed at no cost to them. Period. After the warranty then we can supply the help to get the repair done either by the user, one of our techs or a 3rd party.
> 
> ...


I bet you have customers that run GX7000 all day long that love them as well, correct? Does that make them a quality product? Of course not - simply a silly arguement. 

The paper handling issues we have are the exact same issues that many RJ900 users experience have when laying down solid colors, especially black. There are numerous fixes on varying websites for the issue. We built a little cardboard support to assist the paper coming out 10" before falling. Should a printer that cost the amount an RJ900 cost need modifications to handle dye sublimation?

Sometimes dealer/distributors forget what it is like to be new to something such as printers especially wide format printers. As for buy it all from one reputable source, I agree 100% with the comment for new users that need the hand holding when it comes to learning the dye sublimation process. I cringe at new users looking to eBay, china, etc for supplies knowing that they are more likely to fail than if they chose a reputable distributor. If you are in a production environment such as cut and sew and use considerable amounts of raw goods economically it is not viable, at least in our experience, to purchase everything from one source. We have cut the cost of raw goods required to create a jersey by almost 50% by sourcing our ink, paper and fabric to three different sources. This adds over $4,000 a month to our bottom line. Same raw materials just different vendors.

For a new wide format user I see no advanatage of a Mutoh in the 44" market. Epson one call to one toll free number and a tech is at the door. We never had an issue on a service call, even under warranty, because of the type of ink we were using. Just to be honest voiding warranties based on a person not using the ink you sell has much more to do with sales tactics than it does service and warranty.


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## dirtworks (Feb 21, 2012)

Hey, I heard Epson 9700 come with 2 black ink catridges, could you guys explain that? Thanks.


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## Coastalrich (Jun 24, 2009)

Riderz Ready said:


> I bet you have customers that run GX7000 all day long that love them as well, correct? Does that make them a quality product? Of course not - simply a silly arguement.
> 
> The paper handling issues we have are the exact same issues that many RJ900 users experience have when laying down solid colors, especially black. There are numerous fixes on varying websites for the issue. We built a little cardboard support to assist the paper coming out 10" before falling. Should a printer that cost the amount an RJ900 cost need modifications to handle dye sublimation?
> 
> ...


The GX 7000 is a simple printer for start up sublimation users and it is silly to bring that platform into this discussion. It has it niche as well as the wide format Epsons, Mutohs, Mimakis and Rolands. 

As a dealer we do know what to do to get someone started to have successful production be it wide format or small format.

The fact is the Mutoh RJ 900 as well as the wide format Epson's are both quality products and when supported correctly can help companies like yours be successful printing their products.

The warranty issue is not a sales tactic but factual. Just call Epson or Mutoh direct to see what their support of their printer is using 3rd party inks such as sublimation. 

You are obviously a smart and savvy business person that feels that using different vendors is advantageous for your company. Others prefer a single vendor to go to for help when they need it.


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## Riderz Ready (Sep 18, 2008)

Coastalrich said:


> The GX 7000 is a simple printer for start up sublimation users and it is silly to bring that platform into this discussion. It has it niche as well as the wide format Epsons, Mutohs, Mimakis and Rolands.
> 
> As a dealer we do know what to do to get someone started to have successful production be it wide format or small format.
> 
> ...


The difference between our comments is that yours are from a distributors sales stand point and mine are from using both printers in a production environment. 

It was you that made the comment that you had users running Mutohs 24/7 and love them. I was simply pointing out the real fact that any vendor can take any product and say "we have users that love the product" even if the product has known issues such as the Mutoh RJ 900 and the GX7000. To say people love them and forget to mention long standing known issues to potential customers is your choice. 

If you read my previous post I agreed with buying from one vendor for new people and simply pointed out that experienced users can dramatically cut their cost sourcing products. If you also read my post I can without question say in the three years of running the Epson 9800 to death we never had one issue with Epson repairing the printer whether it was in or out of warranty. 

Your comment about the ink voiding warranty being a technical issue is laughable. Explain to everyone if you sell a RJ900 with J-teck ink it is under warranty. Yet is Graphics One sells the exact same set up yet it is not under warranty. Could it be because they do not sell J-Teck ink? Would you warrant the RJ900 printer using Go ink? Please try telling someone it really is not a sales tactic - embarrassing.


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## Coastalrich (Jun 24, 2009)

Riderz Ready said:


> The difference between our comments is that yours are from a distributors sales stand point and mine are from using both printers in a production environment.
> 
> It was you that made the comment that you had users running Mutohs 24/7 and love them. I was simply pointing out the real fact that any vendor can take any product and say "we have users that love the product" even if the product has known issues such as the Mutoh RJ 900 and the GX7000. To say people love them and forget to mention long standing known issues to potential customers is your choice.
> 
> ...


Just so you know I have been both a producer and a distributor. I have owned and run Epson 9XXX printers and have found them to be very good and reliable. As a dealer, my job is to help our customers be successful be it with Epson, Mutoh and other equipment. Their success leads to our success.

Most reputable dealers will back up the ink system with the same warranty as the manufacturer whether or not the manufacturer supports the ink system. All the better reason to deal with a single source so there is no finger pointing with a good customer getting disappointed

The point of this thread was a either an Epson 9800 or a Mutoh RJ 900. They are both excellent printers but wanted to point out to make sure to find a good dealer to help not only with the printer selection but the consumables and support in their decision process.


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## dirtworks (Feb 21, 2012)

Man, each of you (Riderz Ready and Coastalrich) had strong arguments and reasons...now I'm still confused.


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## Coastalrich (Jun 24, 2009)

dirtworks said:


> Man, each of you (Riderz Ready and Coastalrich) had strong arguments and reasons...now I'm still confused.


Sorry to confuse you on this process. Each printer can do the job for your jerseys with excellent results. I suggest talk to a couple of dealers about the packages they offer for the wide format sublimation and go with the one that can offer you one within your budget and with the support to get you in production right away. Since you are new to sublimation a installation and training package should be considered.


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