# Customers right to YOUR artwork...



## jrod3780 (Jan 28, 2009)

just want some opinions of fellow designers, retailers, etc..
Im a graphic designer in a family owned screenprinting, embroidery and sign shop and last year i put together a design for a baseball team and did uniforms, tshirts, hats, banners, signs, etc...the guy who runs the teams is a real A**hole and we had problems with him from the start..hes the type taht wants to pay next to nothing for everything so that he can charge the parents top dollar and he can make a ton of $$ for doing nothing. 
Anyways, the question is, he claims the art/logo i did for him is his property..he never paid for it nor was there ever any talk that he would get it in a vectored format..ever. Now he wants to find a place that is cheaper to print his stuff (prob inferior quality) and he wants me to hand over the vector file, claiming it was included in the cost of the tshirts and uniforms...which it never was. Has anyone ever run into this issue or something similar? Hes threatening to sue us and slander our name all over the place (which im not the least bit concernred with either).


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## gerry (Oct 4, 2006)

well if you can prove the cost wasnt inc w/ the printing I wouldnt hand over the files. I do alot of that for people no charge...when they want their files to go elsewhere I charge min $240.00 and will burn it on a cd in different formats.
You already have an ahole...no need for two.


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## Unik Ink (Nov 21, 2006)

We have a notice on our order approval form that all artwork created by our company remains our property unless an alternative agreement is made. We do charge art fees for our designs, but we will sign over full copyright for a licensing fee. This makes it work financially for the customer to have the design created and printed by us. If they want to use our designs and shop print prices, they won't come out ahead because of the licensing fee.


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## red514 (Jul 21, 2009)

ya, i've had this happen a few times and it couldn't be proven that the cost included the rights to the art work (or films or screens)... they ended up with nothing. Nowhere on the emails, quotes or on the bill did it state anything regarding art work, just 'graphic lab fees'.


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## red514 (Jul 21, 2009)

Unik Ink said:


> We have a notice on our order approval form that all artwork created by our company remains our property unless an alternative agreement is made. We do charge art fees for our designs, but we will sign over full copyright for a licensing fee. This makes it work financially for the customer to have the design created and printed by us. If they want to use our designs and shop print prices, they won't come out ahead because of the licensing fee.


I like this, probably the most professional and fair approach. Adding this type of info to the approval sheet is smart.


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## jrod3780 (Jan 28, 2009)

well on our order forms, it says that all artwork remains the property of "our business name", and being i do all the artwork and design work for us, we dont charge art fees if the person is giving us a big order and a steady customer...nowhere on any of his invoices does it say taht the art is included or that he paid for it...im super protective over my art,and this particular design i made from scratch and did about 5-6 versions before it was finalized..The best part is, prior to this whole thing going sour, he contacted me about doing a logo for his new "sports academy" and i did about 3-4 of them before he just stopped responding to emails and then after contacting him, he says he went with a design someone else did...which looks exactly like mine...and he was never charged....maybe if the new place hes going to had a half-way decent art department, they could recreate what i did...might take some time but it can be done.


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## IYFGraphics (Sep 28, 2009)

jrod3780 said:


> just want some opinions of fellow designers, retailers, etc..
> Im a graphic designer in a family owned screenprinting, embroidery and sign shop and last year i put together a design for a baseball team and did uniforms, tshirts, hats, banners, signs, etc...the guy who runs the teams is a real A**hole and we had problems with him from the start..hes the type taht wants to pay next to nothing for everything so that he can charge the parents top dollar and he can make a ton of $$ for doing nothing.
> Anyways, the question is, he claims the art/logo i did for him is his property..he never paid for it nor was there ever any talk that he would get it in a vectored format..ever. Now he wants to find a place that is cheaper to print his stuff (prob inferior quality) and he wants me to hand over the vector file, claiming it was included in the cost of the tshirts and uniforms...which it never was. Has anyone ever run into this issue or something similar? Hes threatening to sue us and slander our name all over the place (which im not the least bit concernred with either).


If it was never invoiced as a design charge then IMHO he has no rights to it, although you might have to go to court to prove him wrong.

We had a similar situation on a logo we created for a local race track who's owner is known to be a PIA, because we created the design we added a copyright to the design in the form of text, it's very small but no mater how the logo is printed you can see the text and removing it would ruin the logo, we also had them sign a fair usage agreement which states that we own the logo but relinquish the right to them to use the logo for free for the racing season, we have them sign a new agreement every year, in our case it was to our advantage to give them fair usage of the logo we created because we retain the ownership of the logo which we use on items that we sell at the track every season. 

We have now gotten into the habit that every piece of artwork we produce even a proof is copyrighted, it's simple enough to give him his vector file but lay a big copyright 2010 your company name across the vector then flatten the image to make it impossible to use. Most reputable shops won't touch copyrighted artwork for fear of being sued. 

Might be good for a laugh!


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## pinks (Feb 6, 2010)

If you're not charging an art work fee, it's your to keep. 

I would be pretty ticked if I saw my design on something I didn't make. I think as designers we should all be united in the fact that we won't recreate someone else's art work unless we have their approval.. and if we can get their approval, we could probably get the art work as well. 

Shelby


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## jrod3780 (Jan 28, 2009)

There have been times where ive done something for a customer and never gave them a file for whatever reason, then saw my logo on shirts, signs, etc...and it ticked me off. I even went as far as sending a bill to one of them for the art time i spent on it. Im just holding my ground on this one because i had a funny feeling about this guy the second he walked into my store and i gave him the benefit of the doubt, and he proved me right I guess. Im taking all steps to make sure he cant even use the same uniform company by calling them and telling them the situation so that they just dont redo his unforms with my logo(they were full dye-sub baseball uniforms from Don Alleson).


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## Blazed T (Nov 12, 2006)

I do fine art on the side as well as create designs and logos. I can be commissioned to create an original painting of a Harley-Davidson motorcycle and sell it for as much as I want. I don't have the right to reproduce without Harley's consent and neither can the person who commissioned it. When you sell an original artwork it does NOT include the copyrights to that work. Unless of course you agreed to this in the beginning and have a contract stating so.


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## pinks (Feb 6, 2010)

Wouldnt your best bet for that funny feeling be to turn down the job then?

Funny feelings are usually right.. and this guy seems like a snake.


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## Unik Ink (Nov 21, 2006)

Dead Meat said:


> I do fine art on the side as well as create designs and logos. I can be commissioned to create an original painting of a Harley-Davidson motorcycle and sell it for as much as I want. I don't have the right to reproduce without Harley's consent and neither can the person who commissioned it. When you sell an original artwork it does NOT include the copyrights to that work. Unless of course you agreed to this in the beginning and have a contract stating so.


I'm not so sure that a commissioned piece is not infringing on the Harley trademark. I remember when I was in college, one student painted a portrait of Elvis for part of her thesis, and Elvis Presley Inc. tried to sue her for using Elvis's image. There was an exception for using copyrighted images for educational purposes, but she would not be able to sell the painting. You are reproducing the Harley logo/trademark in an edition of one, but it is still a reproduction of a copyrighted/trademarked image.


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## jrod3780 (Jan 28, 2009)

we are the 3rd company to do his uniforms and gear in the past 3 years..and now hes onto his 4th..who is the common denomintor here?


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## in2infinity (Dec 8, 2009)

Copyright law states that ownership lies with the creator. Unless you signed a "work for hire" agreement or some other agreement stating that for the costs charged you were transferring ownership or reproduction rights to the customer then he has no claims to your files ... or the rights to reproduce any of the artwork you created.

It does not matter if you charged him to create it... what matters is what your contract says. A good example is a photographer. Hire a wedding photographer ... pay them X thousands of dollars and then ask them for the negatives (or raw files). When they're done laughing, they may take a moment to explain that you paid to have pictures taken ... you did not purchase the "work". So if you want copies ... it'll cost you more. If you want the negs, it'll cost you A LOT more. There's a big difference between paying for labor and owning the result.


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## Blazed T (Nov 12, 2006)

Unik Ink said:


> I'm not so sure that a commissioned piece is not infringing on the Harley trademark. I remember when I was in college, one student painted a portrait of Elvis for part of her thesis, and Elvis Presley Inc. tried to sue her for using Elvis's image. There was an exception for using copyrighted images for educational purposes, but she would not be able to sell the painting. You are reproducing the Harley logo/trademark in an edition of one, but it is still a reproduction of a copyrighted/trademarked image.


Probably so. I had read something about Harley-Davidson and Scott Jacobs in this regard some time ago. I only used as example (bad one I guess). Still have sold enough original works to know I retain my own copyrights unless agreed upon with contract.


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## piapot (Jan 9, 2010)

I would like to offer my opinion on the matter as both a creator and a consumer of custom artwork.

When i pay someone an hourly rate for anything, the work they do for me during that time is mine. By the same token when I charge for my time, the creations are now the property of the person who hired me for my time. Can you imagine if every Microsoft employee claimed they owned Windows.

When i am hired for example "Pictures for advertising on my website" then the quote is not for my time but for the exact product they require. Then I retain the ownership to my creations and license them to the buyer for the use(s) they require.

Obviously if there was no charge for the art then there is no leg to stand on, you own it. however if you charged an hourly "graphic design fee" then i want the design i paid for or my money back. If you feel you are undercharging then raise your prices. I hired a graphic artist based on his talents to design elements I want to own as I was unable to purchase them as stock or produce them myself.

If you are only offering me a license to use your designs, then i may want to consider the option, or i may want to locate another artist all depending on my needs by i for sure want to know it up front.


just my 2 cents


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## RedEye (Aug 18, 2006)

You should post what you did so when he just happens to contact one of us, we'll know who it is and can turn him down.


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## kngdmond (Jun 22, 2009)

I myself have a contract that was drafted by my attorney....it clearly states the licensing and distribution and reproduction rights a client has for any artwork I design. In essence I license out my work and grant use and NEVER give my artwork away....if I do choose to sell off all rights they client pays my attorney and I a hefty price.


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## Riderz Ready (Sep 18, 2008)

piapot said:


> I would like to offer my opinion on the matter as both a creator and a consumer of custom artwork.
> 
> When i pay someone an hourly rate for anything, the work they do for me during that time is mine. By the same token when I charge for my time, the creations are now the property of the person who hired me for my time. Can you imagine if every Microsoft employee claimed they owned Windows.
> 
> ...


Well stated - We are in the custom sports apparel business for many different sports. It has always confused me how competitors charge for the artwork then keep the artwork as their property. I would like to thank all of them that continue this policy as our business has exploded becuase of all the games played with sports jerseys companies. On the flip side if we create the artwork as part of the jersey price we in fact do maintain the rights to the graphics. We explain this policy on the phone and in writing to all new prospects so they understand what they are getting and can make an informed decision versus falling in the trap of spending hundreds on artwork that they will not get ownership.


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## 13Graphics (Jul 20, 2009)

I have an hourly rate I charge for artwork that I'm going to screen print. 

I also have an hourly rate I charge for freelance design work, logo design, etc.

The 2 are very different in my opinion. 

When I charge $xx/hour for artwork I'm going to print I do so knowing that I will be making money on the printing side. Therefore my hourly rate is less than my regular freelance rate. They are paying me for artwork that I will put on t-shirts, that is all. In turn, I keep the artwork. 

If I am doing freelance work the artwork is obviously the clients once I am finished. Because I am working strictly as a graphic artist I do charge more. My hourly rate is still less than many GA's.

If a screen print client wants the artwork to take to a competitor they will have to pay my freelance rate. I don't think anyone would be willing to work for their competition at a discounted rate.


I'm sure anyone who has done web design has dealt with this before too. Almost every web design client I have had wanted everything I did in 10 different formats for printing. My policy there was similar. I would design a logo for a website included in the price. If they wanted a cd with print ready artwork it would be extra.

I got out of web design because everyone "knows someone", and everyone wants everything for free. I really hope I don't have to leave screen printing for the same reason one day.


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## piapot (Jan 9, 2010)

kngdmond said:


> I myself have a contract that was drafted by my attorney....it clearly states the licensing and distribution and reproduction rights a client has for any artwork I design. In essence I license out my work and grant use and NEVER give my artwork away....if I do choose to sell off all rights they client pays my attorney and I a hefty price.



I guess that cuts your work load in half.... I don't want to pay an attorney to purchase custom art. If i hire a bricklayer to build my house i don't pay him rent on my place forever, and likewise when i hire an artist to do custom artwork for me i would like to own it so i don't have to pay his "rent" forever. Someone who is easy to work with and offers good products at a reasonable price should be able to keep happy customers without trying to force them into staying as a customer by holding artwork hostage. 

However, at least you have a contract that tells me i have to pay you AND your lawyer to work with you and that choice is one that is completely yours to make.


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## piapot (Jan 9, 2010)

13Graphics said:


> I have an hourly rate I charge for artwork that I'm going to screen print.
> 
> I also have an hourly rate I charge for freelance design work, logo design, etc.
> 
> ...



If you approach this from a marketing aspect you will see why a client would want your artwork....without leaving you as a supplier of screen printing.... you do not have enough faith in your product to feel comfortable letting your customer choose the best silk screener (you)

When i market a business or a product, i do it on everything. T-shirts, signs, websites, brochures, postcards and posters and anything else i can think of. Now if you can supply me all of those products at competitive prices, then hold my artwork hostage... but when i ask for something you can't provide and my artwork is hostage you just devalued everything you did for me (because i need to alter my marketing strategy) and my next step will be looking for a way to get rid of you... Go to your competitor as such because you wrecked my marketing vision with your shortsightedness (thinking the only reason i want your artwork is to leave you as a customer)


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## 13Graphics (Jul 20, 2009)

piapot said:


> If you approach this from a marketing aspect you will see why a client would want your artwork....without leaving you as a supplier of screen printing.... you do not have enough faith in your product to feel comfortable letting your customer choose the best silk screener (you)
> 
> When i market a business or a product, i do it on everything. T-shirts, signs, websites, brochures, postcards and posters and anything else i can think of. Now if you can supply me all of those products at competitive prices, then hold my artwork hostage... but when i ask for something you can't provide and my artwork is hostage you just devalued everything you did for me (because i need to alter my marketing strategy) and my next step will be looking for a way to get rid of you... Go to your competitor as such because you wrecked my marketing vision with your shortsightedness (thinking the only reason i want your artwork is to leave you as a customer)


OK, let me try to clarify.

If you come to me and say "I want you to design the artwork for all of my marketing material". That's fine, I would be more than happy to do that for you. I'll charge you $XXX to do so, and when I'm done you'll get all of your artwork on a cd ready for print, web, and anything else you require.

If you come to me and say "I want you to design and print some shirts". That's fine also, I'll charge you $XX/hr to design your shirt, and $X/per shirt to print them. That is where it ends. You paid me to design a shirt, not all of your marketing material. 

I'm not holding your artwork hostage, you didn't pay me to design your marketing material. You didn't pay me to put your artwork on a cd for you. You paid me to produce artwork so that I can print black and white positives to burn MY screens with, nothing more, nothing less.


Besides, most of the time the artwork charge isn't designing anything, it's cleaning up low resolution jpegs. Again, so we can print from them, not to save you from paying a designer.

Just my opinion, take it, leave it.


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## piapot (Jan 9, 2010)

13Graphics said:


> OK, let me try to clarify.
> 
> If you come to me and say "I want you to design and print some shirts". That's fine also, I'll charge you $XX/hr to design your shirt, and $X/per shirt to print them. That is where it ends. You paid me to design a shirt, not all of your marketing material.
> 
> Just my opinion, take it, leave it.


You see it's the $XX/hour to design that i have a problem with as a customer. That design is mine if i paid by the hour.

Now if you say a shirt costs this amount.... no artwork fee then i can't be upset.

And what i want to do with the thing i bought from you (ie: design my shirt not my marketing material) is again shortsighted. It doesn't matter to you if i use the artwork you designed for me for a website and a marketing plan AS WELL AS the shirts i buy from you. It's no different from you telling me i can wear the shirts i buy from you but not use them as rags. I bought it.

The reason i say it is shortsighted in taking this approach is that if a customer likes your design enough to want to use it elsewhere guess who will be his first call next time he needs a design? By allowing him to use it on more material may also get you additional design jobs through referrals and higher exposure. And lastly as a company grows and markets and expands he generates more supply requirements which should translate to more business and larger orders for you.


And you are right. Everything is each ones opinion and i just wanted to offer a counter view to the seemingly one sided approach in the thread. Everyone has to run their own business as they see fit.


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## jrod3780 (Jan 28, 2009)

well i thank everyone for their input...seems everyone feels the same way i do. Since i posted this, nothing significant has happened aside from the fact that everytime he writes me an email "bullying" or saying "if i dont get my file by 3 o clock, im going to badmouth you on online forums", he CC's his attorney...or who knows, prob not even his attorney but a fake email address. If someone comes to me and says, i need a logo and I might do shirts/signs/uniforms, etc...i have an hourly rate. If they come and say, im placing an order now, can you design me something, 9 times outta 10 i dont charge bc. im getting a nice order. He gave us a nice order to start..hats, shirts, uniforms, banners, window stickers, etc. Im just really shocked that he would threaten us or anything being hes an "ex" cop...he should know that merely saying the slightest thing online, i can use against him. What it comes down to, is that I was being nice and trying to help out a new customer and came up with a really unique, cool logo...things went sour b.c he became a real a-hole and thought he could bully us around and now he gets nothing bc. he never paid for it and he apparently doesnt understand how to be a business person....oh well, good luck to him or i guess to the next company he deals with, they dont know what they are in for lol.


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## Chap Ambrose (Oct 21, 2008)

US copyright law says that unless you've transfered the author rights to your work (in writting) to somebody else, it belongs to you.

See the wikipedia entry on Work for Hire and Copyright Law for more information.


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## Leesfer (Feb 23, 2010)

By law, any art work that you created is owned and copyrighted by you. If a contract was signed that the art work would be passed to a buyer, and all contract items had been met by the buyer, then he owns the art work.

If not, it's yours and don't let him tell you otherwise.

Edit: I just now realized that you are creating custom work for you clients. You NEED to start creating contracts concerning the work made. For you to create logos for a client, print it, and then sell the printed items while retaining the logo you are in the wrong. This is bad practice


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## ratdaddy (Sep 25, 2009)

I'd tell him the computer system crashed and all his files were deleted. Sorry have a nice day.


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## KreativeClothing (Dec 17, 2009)

ratdaddy said:


> I'd tell him the computer system crashed and all his files were deleted. Sorry have a nice day.


Haha, that is a very solid plan b .


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## Clan Co (Mar 15, 2010)

Bottom line is unless he has something in writing saying the artwork is his property you won't even have to go to court for it. there are plenty of precidents, as stated above photography is one of many. If he goes to a attorny that is what he will be told. If he goes to small claims court you will have to show, up but he can't win. there is no way I would give the source files to any of my work to anyone. He is going to trash talk either way so don't let him run over you. oh and I am a CPA so I have some formal legal education. he is bluffing don't flinch


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