# Screen Blow Out, Please Help!



## NLeisenring (Jun 17, 2013)

Okay I am in desperate need of assistance. I am still new to screen printing, but I have already made several successful designs with no issue. I have now moved my set up to a separate location and cannot seem to get the washout process working properly. Here's how I used to operate: 

- acquire new screen
- wipe screen down and degrease, let dry for 12-24 hours
- Emulsify both sides using Ryonet Dual Cure, Let dry for 24 hours
- Tape transparency to the screen as needed
- Take screen outside into a shaded area, burn image using 500 halogen lamp(supplied by Ryonet), 16" above the screen, for 13-16 minutes
- Post screen up against the wall and wash out with a garden hose or gas powered pressure washer


I have since moved the operation indoors to a plumbed dark room. I have purchased an electric pressure washer(gas seemed too heavy duty, and obviously can't use it indoors). I can't think of anything else that I've done differently. I have tried longer exposure times(one as much as 1 hour), shorter times(11-12 minutes), I have let the screens dry for 48 hours before exposure, switched to the tub hose, etc. I can't think of anything else to do. I have a huge order right now and I can't even get going on it, please help!

- The transparencies are very opaque, I even doubled them up to be sure. I have had success with less opaque transparencies . 
- I spray the screen lightly first and wait a minute or so before attempting wash out
- The emulsion seems very weak. It is definitely dry, but it doesn't seem to be cured all the way or something
- The room is in the same area as the furnace, water heater, and water purifier; could that cause issue with drying?


I am ready to smash every screen and set fire to the lot, please help!!


----------



## Stitches (Oct 2, 2006)

Have you done a step wedge test? If not do one and this should help you figure our where optimum exposure time is. Are you using a pressure washer to wash the image out? If so this could be a problem. I use a garden hose with a simple sprayer to wash my images out.


----------



## outbreak (Jan 9, 2010)

How are you ensuring your transparencies stay flat? Have you tried a piece of non-uv coated glass on top of the screen when burning? (Assuming the screen is upside down - I've never seen one of those used.) Also, is the screen slimy when you're washing it out?


----------



## NLeisenring (Jun 17, 2013)

Stitches said:


> Have you done a step wedge test? If not do one and this should help you figure our where optimum exposure time is. Are you using a pressure washer to wash the image out? If so this could be a problem. I use a garden hose with a simple sprayer to wash my images out.


I have not done a step wedge test, I am unaware of what that is. Can you elaborate?

I have tried using a pressure washer (up close, far away, and even with the power of and just using the "built up pressure in the line"), as well as a simple garden hose sprayer, neither seem to make a difference.

Also, yes the screens seem slimier than normal when washing out. What does that mean?


----------



## NLeisenring (Jun 17, 2013)

outbreak said:


> How are you ensuring your transparencies stay flat? Have you tried a piece of non-uv coated glass on top of the screen when burning? (Assuming the screen is upside down - I've never seen one of those used.) Also, is the screen slimy when you're washing it out?


The transparencies art definitely flat. I have a 1/2'" piece of Plexiglass that I lay on top and clamp down on all the corners with C-Clamps. Yes, the screen seems slimy when washing out.


----------



## outbreak (Jan 9, 2010)

Most plexiglass blocks UV, which would mean your screens are underexposed. Which would also explain the slime.


----------



## jimcr (Feb 3, 2009)

#1 if your glass is still on the lamp remove it , it has a tint to it. 
#2 placing glass ontop of your screen make sure its clear , no tint (its called starfire very pricey) But completely clear . Not like std glass.
#3 how old is your emulsion. Diazo emulsion is only good for 60-90 days before it goes bad.

I used a very similar setup and burned mine for 12 minutes on that setup . right now your going threw 2 pains of glass that block UV light.
Doing a step wedge test will tell you how long you will have to expose to get good results.
Looks to me like your not exposing long enough, does the emulsion feel slimey if it does your under exposed. sben is great at solving these problems , hope he pipes in . 

Really sounds like a combination of the glass in the lamp and the plexi glass causing the problems.


----------



## NLeisenring (Jun 17, 2013)

outbreak said:


> Most plexiglass blocks UV, which would mean your screens are underexposed. Which would also explain the slime.



Hmmm. So I should increase exposure time?


----------



## outbreak (Jan 9, 2010)

I would find a piece of non-uv blocking glass and try that. I got some from my local glass supply and it wasn't that expensive.


----------



## NLeisenring (Jun 17, 2013)

outbreak said:


> I would find a piece of non-uv blocking glass and try that. I got some from my local glass supply and it wasn't that expensive.


Okay, I just picked up a piece of glass from Lowes and tried it again. 13 minutes under the 500 watt halogen. Still no success. This screen seems to not want to wash out at all. The artwork area is very difficult to clear and once it starts to clear, it just blows out the whole area. Should I reduce exposure time? 

I sprayed lightly with water first(both sides) and the artwork showed up great, but I'm still having issues.


----------



## outbreak (Jan 9, 2010)

Are you sure that glass is not UV coated? I'd bet it is.


----------



## OSSKOBRET (Sep 17, 2011)

Yes, the screen seems slimy when washing out.

Your screens may not be completely dry is your film sticking to your screen after exposure ?
Google step wedge test you may be able to find a free one for download take your time and expose a few screens and write down the data this will help you get a grip on what is going on


----------



## jimcr (Feb 3, 2009)

NLeisenring said:


> Okay, I just picked up a piece of glass from Lowes and tried it again. 13 minutes under the 500 watt halogen. Still no success. This screen seems to not want to wash out at all. The artwork area is very difficult to clear and once it starts to clear, it just blows out the whole area. Should I reduce exposure time?
> 
> I sprayed lightly with water first(both sides) and the artwork showed up great, but I'm still having issues.


I highly doubt that lowes carries the correct glass, but with that being said if your emulsion is washing out hard you are most likely over exposed. drop down to 10 minutes and see what happens . If you do step wedge test it will tell you which way to go .

With the correct glass and emulsion you could get down around 4 minutes but you need to be relatively close first .
If its taking too long to start to wash out and then blows out your exposing too long , if it washes out but it slimey you need more time. 
Did you remove the glass from the lamp? how old is your emulsion and what brand.
I started with a glass that was suppose to be clear , ended up getting a different peice that was completely clear , starlight or starfire, low iron. you can really see the difference .I bought mine from a glass co , and they had samples to see. big difference in them. Makes all the difference in the end.
you could also set out a image when exposing to get an idea of how long it will take to wash out correctly.
cover you image except for a small area, expose for 7 min , move cover back some and continue to expose for another min, ect. so when you done end at 10 minutes. wash out and see what worked best. 
also look up set wedge test on youtube , or google.


----------



## OSSKOBRET (Sep 17, 2011)

View attachment step_wedge.pdf


see if this helps


----------



## NLeisenring (Jun 17, 2013)

jimcr said:


> I highly doubt that lowes carries the correct glass, but with that being said if your emulsion is washing out hard you are most likely over exposed. drop down to 10 minutes and see what happens . If you do step wedge test it will tell you which way to go .
> 
> With the correct glass and emulsion you could get down around 4 minutes but you need to be relatively close first .
> If its taking too long to start to wash out and then blows out your exposing too long , if it washes out but it slimey you need more time.
> ...


Ok I attempted 10 minutes and it still took a while to start washing out, and when it started to wash out the whole screen begin blowing out again. I am wondering if my "dark room" isn't secure enough from UV rays. If these screens were partially exposed due to UV rays sneeking in, would this cause my symptoms? That's the only thing left that makes sense to me because I have tried every exposure time from 10 to 25 minutes and even upwards of an hour! 

- I used heavy duty black garbage bags to cover the window(doubled up and stapled to the wall)
- I sealed the door frame with extra insulation strips to stop light from getting in
- I replaces the light with a yellow bug light

When I am in the room with the lights off it is completely black, so I don't see how this could be an issue? Maybe when I open the door to get in and out? Is that enough light sneaking in to cause problems?


----------



## outbreak (Jan 9, 2010)

Ok, what if you tried one with only clear tape holding the transparency. That way you could eliminate the glass. Chances are, it wouldn't be perfect, but you'd be able to eliminate the glass as a factor.


----------



## monkeystylz (Aug 6, 2012)

Glass can be a big issue, I use the same setup with a 500watt helogen work light with the glsss out of it abd I made sure I got custom glas made that was just plain glass. If I use the ulano orange it takes 5mins but if I use a duel cure diszo emulsion it takes 25mins. As everyone else said try a step wedge test and you should be okay because it gets extremely frustrating when you are wasting so much emulsion  only other thing is your emuslion can be out of date, the stuff you use to clean your screen should not be an issue as you can use normal dish washing liquid. Only other option is your transparencies are not dark enough and its letting a little light ti the areas you don't want exposed... it will take time to conduct a process of elimination but luckily with screen printing the list normally is not that big and is an easy fix once you find the problem 

I hope you find the problem and there are plenty of people on here who will help you 

Sent from my GT-I9300T using T-Shirt Forums


----------



## NLeisenring (Jun 17, 2013)

outbreak said:


> Ok, what if you tried one with only clear tape holding the transparency. That way you could eliminate the glass. Chances are, it wouldn't be perfect, but you'd be able to eliminate the glass as a factor.


I have used the glass before with no issues(when I had everything outside), so I don't think the glass is the issue. I am trying on with a single transparency at 15 minutes, we'll see how this goes.


----------



## NLeisenring (Jun 17, 2013)

outbreak said:


> Ok, what if you tried one with only clear tape holding the transparency. That way you could eliminate the glass. Chances are, it wouldn't be perfect, but you'd be able to eliminate the glass as a factor.


Ok I tried removing the glass for sake of trying, and the transparencies began lifting off of the screen. So I put the glass back on, removed one transparency, and burned for 15 minutes. See attached for the results. 

This one got me very excited because the top art came out fine, but the bottom just turned to mush. Longer exposure?


----------



## jimcr (Feb 3, 2009)

NLeisenring said:


> Ok I tried removing the glass for sake of trying, and the transparencies began lifting off of the screen. So I put the glass back on, removed one transparency, and burned for 15 minutes. See attached for the results.
> 
> This one got me very excited because the top art came out fine, but the bottom just turned to mush. Longer exposure?


I am thinking you emulsion is bad out of date , if you burned that for 15 min part of the time with out the glass it should not due that. 

your transparency started to lift because its getting hot. 
Did you remove the glass from the lamp? that glass has UV blocker in it .
HOW OLD IS YOUR EMULSION? how long ago did you mix it with diazo ?


----------



## NLeisenring (Jun 17, 2013)

jimcr said:


> I am thinking you emulsion is bad out of date , if you burned that for 15 min part of the time with out the glass it should not due that.
> 
> your transparency started to lift because its getting hot.
> Did you remove the glass from the lamp? that glass has UV blocker in it .
> HOW OLD IS YOUR EMULSION? how long ago did you mix it with diazo ?


I'm fairly certain the emulsion is not the issue. I just mixed it a few days ago. I was having this issue prior to using this batch as well. These issues arose as soon as the weather got cold and I had to move everything in doors. I just don't get it though because I've changed my entire setup for the better:

- Switched from a junk Kodak printer and no-name transparencies to an Epson WF-7510 with Fixxons (I have a vinyl cutter too, and I've even tried using cut vinyl for my artwork, same problems)
- My entire setup(other than exposure) is in a light safe room
- Downgraded from a heavy duty gas power washer to electric

I don't know what other variables there could be.

The glass is still in the halogen light, but that wasn't an issue before so it shouldn't be now. My exposure unit is virtually the same as when I had success outside. Same height, same light.


----------



## outbreak (Jan 9, 2010)

Which transparency did you take off, the top or bottom?

Look at the glass on the lamp and see if it says anything about UV on it. I know on commercial lamps you HAVE to take the glass off.


----------



## NLeisenring (Jun 17, 2013)

outbreak said:


> Which transparency did you take off, the top or bottom?
> 
> Look at the glass on the lamp and see if it says anything about UV on it. I know on commercial lamps you HAVE to take the glass off.



I took off the top, but I don't see how that would make a difference? They are exactly the same. Does that matter? 

As for the lamp, I got it directly from Ryonet in one of their intro packages, and their training video says you can expose either way. Plus, I was burning that way successfully before moving indoors, so I don't think that would all of the sudden change right?


----------



## outbreak (Jan 9, 2010)

I only asked for my reference. So the one that burnt longer turned out better right? Are your screens completely dry before you coat them? Do you store them in a dry environment after coating?


----------



## NLeisenring (Jun 17, 2013)

outbreak said:


> I only asked for my reference. So the one that burnt longer turned out better right? Are your screens completely dry before you coat them? Do you store them in a dry environment after coating?


Oh ok. Yes I do seem to be making a little headway. I did just realize that I only removed the transparency off the smaller artwork, which turned out better. The emulsion does seem week, the current screens in production only dried for 4-6 hours or so. They seemed completely dry, but I'm going to let the next ones cure overnight and then remove that other transparency. I will keep you posted. Any additional suggesstions?


----------



## outbreak (Jan 9, 2010)

I did notice that it's obvious where your transparencies were after washing out. Have you tried a transparency that you've used before and know is good? Sometimes white on the CPU screen truly isn't white and when printed puts ink over the entire sheet. Know what I mean?

But didn't you say you used vinyl too? I'm on an iPad, so it's not as easy to go back and look. 

What about other vellum? 

Are you using a different kind of vellum now? 

I'm just trying to think of things...


----------



## NLeisenring (Jun 17, 2013)

outbreak said:


> I did notice that it's obvious where your transparencies were after washing out. Have you tried a transparency that you've used before and know is good? Sometimes white on the CPU screen truly isn't white and when printed puts ink over the entire sheet. Know what I mean?
> 
> But didn't you say you used vinyl too? I'm on an iPad, so it's not as easy to go back and look.
> 
> ...


I tried using my old transparencies that worked before, but they won't feed through the need printer. The only ones I currently have are the fixxons. 

Thanks for the continued help!


----------



## monkeystylz (Aug 6, 2012)

Have you tried using the matte or glossy settings because I know that allows for thicker paper, and sometimes people put a white strip of paper down the side of the film because sometimes the printers don't recognize the film is in there...

Sent from my GT-I9300T using T-Shirt Forums


----------



## jimcr (Feb 3, 2009)

NLeisenring said:


> I'm fairly certain the emulsion is not the issue. I just mixed it a few days ago. I was having this issue prior to using this batch as well. These issues arose as soon as the weather got cold and I had to move everything in doors. I just don't get it though because I've changed my entire setup for the better:
> 
> - Switched from a junk Kodak printer and no-name transparencies to an Epson WF-7510 with Fixxons (I have a vinyl cutter too, and I've even tried using cut vinyl for my artwork, same problems)
> - My entire setup(other than exposure) is in a light safe room
> ...


I have 2 lamps from Ryonet and I have the videos and he does suggest to take off the glass on the lamp. 
What is the humidity level in your drying room ? 
High humidity will create problems also , more so with a photopolymer than a Diazo but it will still affect it.
You saying you moved in because it got cold , I did the same but I also use a photopolymer and a dehumidifier. 
I don't touch my screens until I am at no more than 30% relative humidity.
When you coat a screen there is a substantial amount of moisture in the air , and if your doing it in a small room or closed room your trapping that moisture in there. The screens may seam to be dry but may not be , that lamp produces heat and may be trying to push out the moisture left in the film getting trapped between the outer layers and causing the emulsion to release from the screen. 
The longer you have to expose the screen the more likely you will have this type of problem if there is too much moisture left between the layers of emulsion. 
Have you had a positive stick to the screen. You may even see moisture under the glass towards the end of exposing the screen.
Because of this long cold winter a lot of people are having problems they never had before. 
If you have a humidity gauge check and see what the levels are . I know this sucks and seems like your chasing your tail but we are just trying to help .
When you had success outside you had if you were out doors the help of the sun even if you were not in direct sunlight. UV light is present even on a cloudy day.


----------



## jimcr (Feb 3, 2009)

NLeisenring said:


> Oh ok. Yes I do seem to be making a little headway. I did just realize that I only removed the transparency off the smaller artwork, which turned out better. The emulsion does seem week, the current screens in production only dried for 4-6 hours or so. They seemed completely dry, but I'm going to let the next ones cure overnight and then remove that other transparency. I will keep you posted. Any additional suggesstions?



How are you drying your screens ? coating and placing in front of a fan? or just coating ? do they feel tacky at all?


----------



## NLeisenring (Jun 17, 2013)

monkeystylz said:


> Have you tried using the matte or glossy settings because I know that allows for thicker paper, and sometimes people put a white strip of paper down the side of the film because sometimes the printers don't recognize the film is in there...
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9300T using T-Shirt Forums


I have not made new transparencies, so no I haven't tried different settings. Do you think they could be the issue? I didn't even consider them the problem because I have had success with less opaque ones. Plus I used vinyl for my art too and have had the same issues. I would think the vinyl would have absolutely no issues because it is completely opaque. 

My new Epson does not have a "transparency" setting. Just plain paper, photo paper, premium photo, etc.


----------



## NLeisenring (Jun 17, 2013)

jimcr said:


> I have 2 lamps from Ryonet and I have the videos and he does suggest to take off the glass on the lamp.
> What is the humidity level in your drying room ?
> High humidity will create problems also , more so with a photopolymer than a Diazo but it will still affect it.
> You saying you moved in because it got cold , I did the same but I also use a photopolymer and a dehumidifier.
> ...


That all makes sense. Hmmm. The room I am using is only about 8' X8', and it also houses the Furnace, Water Purifier and Water Heater. 

- I did bring in my dehumidifier. It doesn't seem to be filling up at an alarming rate, so I don't think the air is too humid.
- I'll admit I did rush a couple screens(this has been a 2 week trial and error session thus far) but at one point the screens had had over 48 hours of dry time. 
- I do not have anything to check the exact humidity levels
- The screens do not leave any moisture after exposure, and are not tacky. I have not had any transparencies stick to them either. 
- I do have a fan on the screens and from what I've seen and read online, the screens should be dry in a few hours with a fan in a dry room, am I wrong?


See the attached pic for my "drying rack". I know it's not ideal, but I don't have a ton of capitol to invest in all of the proper equipment just yet. Thank you for your continued assistance!


----------



## jimcr (Feb 3, 2009)

these settings are for my 1430 but yours should be the same.If your not using a RIP these should get you close.
I use Accurip and in there you can control how much black goes down on your transparency. If your using all black change it to color .


----------



## NLeisenring (Jun 17, 2013)

jimcr said:


> these settings are for my 1430 but yours should be the same.If your not using a RIP these should get you close.
> I use Accurip and in there you can control how much black goes down on your transparency. If your using all black change it to color .


Thanks I will try a new piece right now! No, I do not have accurip, is that a free software?


----------



## jimcr (Feb 3, 2009)

when you mixed you diazo in you added the required amount of water to it , stirred it well and let it sit with the cover sitting just over the top for a couple of hours to get out the air trapped in it.

Did you a braid your screens when they were new? 
How long does it take for you to wash out. 
Try removing the glass from the lamp and tape down at the corners your positive and burn it for 12 minutes , also lay a dime down next to you positive . see if it washes out ok . It does not matter what is on your positive its just to do a test.
What side of the scoop coater are you using , thin (sharp side ) I hope.


----------



## jimcr (Feb 3, 2009)

NLeisenring said:


> Thanks I will try a new piece right now! No, I do not have accurip, is that a free software?


You can download a free trial from them. Check first to make sure you printer is covered. I think the free trial is for 15 days. Make sure you read the manual .
software for screen printers
https://www.softwareforscreenprinters.com/download-accurip-installer-pc


----------



## keepitspinning (Jan 13, 2014)

A couple of important points to keep in mind in your troubleshooting. 
If the screens (image or no image) are washing out, you are under exposed. 
If you are having difficulties getting the stencil to clear, you are over exposed. 
If your screens are inadvertently being exposed to light while in storage, they will be overexposed. 
With your set up, only you will have the answer with experimentation. 
You will need to attempt to burn and wash out screens, recording exactly what you do each time. You can trash a screen by grossly overexposing it, so start with a lesser exposure time and increase it. 
If you don't have one, you should invest in an exposure calculator (a sheet with an image you use to burn onto your screens). It will help calculate the proper exposure time. 
While the answers you get here may provide direction, no one is going to be able to give you an exact time. 
Every exposure unit is going to be different. Bulb intensity, how old the bulb is in its life cycle, the mesh color, the emulsion you use, age of the emulsion, etc. 
Buck up and take the time to figure it out the correct way or you will suffer the consequences for ever, not to mention the financial cost of the screens.


----------



## NLeisenring (Jun 17, 2013)

jimcr said:


> when you mixed you diazo in you added the required amount of water to it , stirred it well and let it sit with the cover sitting just over the top for a couple of hours to get out the air trapped in it.
> 
> Did you a braid your screens when they were new?
> How long does it take for you to wash out.
> ...


Yes I followed those steps for emulsion. It actually sat overnight before I started using it. 

I am using the other side of the scoop coater. The shirts I am working on require a white underbase and specialty metallic ink, so I figured a thicker layer of emulsion is needed, no?


----------



## NLeisenring (Jun 17, 2013)

Okay all, I just made another attempt at exposure using 100% opaque artwork, 156 mesh screen, coated 1/1 and allowed to dry for over 30 hours, exposed without the halogen lens for 15 minutes. It started washing out fine, but after the water had a couple minutes to soak into the emulsion it seemed to just fall apart. It acts as if the emulsion is not dry and/or underexposed, both variables which I have ruled out. I store the emulsion container under the wash out sink in a cool, dry spot. I followed the mixing instructions completely. I'm thinking they sent a bad batch of emulsion, I don't know what else it could be.


----------



## outbreak (Jan 9, 2010)

It seems you're narrowing down your choices to that.

Where do you live?


----------



## keepitspinning (Jan 13, 2014)

You just stated "I followed the mixing instructions completely". Are you using an emulsion that you have to add a sensitizers too.
If so,m you've probably have bad sensitizers. 
It sounds as if you may relatively new to screen printing?
If so, why aren't you using emulsion that is ready out of the bucket?
I understand what you are using is better, it is just more variables in an equation that is a moving target for you.
Mesh count has nothing to do with your problems.
Your problems are either emulsion or exposure related.


----------



## OSSKOBRET (Sep 17, 2011)

Get some saati phu blue 
That stuff is awsome easy to use and exsposes very well 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using T-Shirt Forums


----------



## NLeisenring (Jun 17, 2013)

outbreak said:


> It seems you're narrowing down your choices to that.
> 
> Where do you live?


West Michigan


----------



## NLeisenring (Jun 17, 2013)

keepitspinning said:


> You just stated "I followed the mixing instructions completely". Are you using an emulsion that you have to add a sensitizers too.
> If so,m you've probably have bad sensitizers.
> It sounds as if you may relatively new to screen printing?
> If so, why aren't you using emulsion that is ready out of the bucket?
> ...



Yes I have only been printing since last spring. I am using the Dual Cure because that's what originally came with the set up that I ordered from Ryonet, so it's what I am familiar with. Is there an easier emulsion to work with? What is the difference in types of emulsion? Why is one better than the other?


----------



## keepitspinning (Jan 13, 2014)

Dual cure is suppose to offer better resolution, and if you are not using a lot of emulsion, it has long shelf life because it is not activated until you add the additive.
That being said, I would guess where your are at with everything, you are better off using a one step emulsion and at some point in the future, you can move back.
We mostly use Aquasol HV. We print process, spot press and spot color and have great results.
There is a distributor in the Chicago area that I believe has a rep that covers your area.
Check out T & J supply. There people are very knowledgeable and can help on issues like this.
My point is, while you are starting out, eliminate as many variables as you can. You will save yourself a lot of hassle. By the way, the shelf life is at least two or three months. Going into the winter months, I buy 15-20 gallons to get me through the winter. Don't want to take the chance of it freezing in transit. That causes problems like you are having. In November, I buy enough to get me into March, so it sits. Hope this helps


----------



## NLeisenring (Jun 17, 2013)

OSSKOBRET said:


> Get some saati phu blue
> That stuff is awsome easy to use and exsposes very well
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using T-Shirt Forums



Is this good for plastisol inks?


----------



## OSSKOBRET (Sep 17, 2011)

NLeisenring said:


> Is this good for plastisol inks?


I have tried alot of emulsion and I prefer the saati over anything else I have used .

It is great for plastisol and if you throw it out in the sun for a bit after washout its great for water base also


----------



## jimcr (Feb 3, 2009)

Satti blue , Ryonets hifi, ulano orange. all good starting points, Someone pointed out about shipping in the cold , yeah thats not good , where are you located. do you have a source of emulsion without shipping? 
With these photopolymers they expose very fast in comparison to a diazo type. 
If you were using the rounded side of the scoop coater switch to the sharp side , coat 1/1 dry then add an aditional coat to the print side (Bottom)then dry that . it may be that you fim is too thick and not dry in the middle.
you may be better off coating 1/1 and print flash printing than putting a thick coat of emulsion down .


----------



## NLeisenring (Jun 17, 2013)

jimcr said:


> Satti blue , Ryonets hifi, ulano orange. all good starting points, Someone pointed out about shipping in the cold , yeah thats not good , where are you located. do you have a source of emulsion without shipping?
> With these photopolymers they expose very fast in comparison to a diazo type.
> If you were using the rounded side of the scoop coater switch to the sharp side , coat 1/1 dry then add an aditional coat to the print side (Bottom)then dry that . it may be that you fim is too thick and not dry in the middle.
> you may be better off coating 1/1 and print flash printing than putting a thick coat of emulsion down .



I am located in West Michigan, so yes shipping in the cold is probably the issue. I would think they would know that upon ordering and have precautions. I am in between emails with Ryonet at the moment on the issue. I am very confident that this is the problem. It's what makes most sense. I don't suppose there are any fellow members in my area that know any places locally?


----------



## keepitspinning (Jan 13, 2014)

As I stated I believe T & J has a warehouse in Michugan. It is worth a call to find out if it is driving distance. There main warehouse is in Illinois. 
The coating advise is all good but I still don't think that has anything to do with you problem. It is either emulsion or exposure related. Try working with a distributor that is closer to you that has support.


----------



## monkeystylz (Aug 6, 2012)

If your screen is still washung out then it is under exposed. Try it for 18 minutes and see what happens. I use the exact same exposure unit as yours a d mine is 12inches from the screen and I use ukano orange and a duel cure 2 part. Ulano orange only takes 5 muns and I post expose for an additional 5mins and the 2 part takes me 25mins to burn a screen and I post expose that for 15mims to make sure it nice and secure in the screen... I also converted my 1410 to an all black printer and I just make sure the colours is a dark brown when I print it and it comes up super dark

Sent from my GT-I9300T using T-Shirt Forums


----------



## keepitspinning (Jan 13, 2014)

How much does this exposure unit cost. Twenty five minutes to burn a screen! When do you find time to print? I can burn 7-8 screen in that time


----------



## monkeystylz (Aug 6, 2012)

Lol yeah I know its ages but Im a very small business and I do my burning at night and do a run the next day. I use the ulano orange with the permaset aqua super cover range but only for dark garments. And I made my own exposure unit which is only a point source exposure unit which only cost me $10 to make and im hoping in the future I can upgrade my equipment

Sent from my GT-I9300T using T-Shirt Forums


----------



## jimcr (Feb 3, 2009)

One Stop is in Grand rapids, they may be close enough for a short drive.


----------



## NLeisenring (Jun 17, 2013)

jimcr said:


> One Stop is in Grand rapids, they may be close enough for a short drive.


Thanks! I set up my account and am planning a drive this week!. 

In the mean time I tried a few more attempts with the current emulsion. I have had success... sort of. See the attached pictures. This screen was burned with a 500 watt halogen(glass removed) at 15 minutes with vinyl/clear tape artwork. It took a long time to washout, maybe like 5-7 minutes. Towards the end of washout the edges began blowing out(I saved it in time). When I went to apply newspaper to begin the drying process, the paper stuck pretty hard and pulled off some of the emulsion with it. Also I noticed brownish yellow liquid(I assume the diazo) on the newspaper as well. Does this confirm that the emulsion likely froze at one point?


----------



## keepitspinning (Jan 13, 2014)

My answers are all assumptions since I'm not there to see step by step what you are doing.
That said, I think it is taking way too long to wash out your screens. The question is, is it taking that long or are you not aggressive enough. If it takes that long that you are over exposing but I'm going to assume that you are not aggressive enough in your wash out method.
We use a power washer and it takes three or four minutes. If we go longer than that, we're experiencing edges lifting as well. 
The emulsion is water base, and the longer it is wet, the softer it will get. If you are using a garden hose, use a fan spray setting and get close to the screen. Hit the ink side of the screen pretty hard durning the first 30 seconds of the wash out. Once the stencil starts to clear, do not spay the print side.
The longer it takes to wash out, the further away from the screen you will need to back eve due.
off. 
If you start blowing the end out, you have to be very careful. 
I'm not convinced your issues are from frozen emulsion now.
I'm thinking you are taking to long to wash out the screen. Try getting aggressive.
On drying the screen, dab dry the non stencil areas with a towel or newspaper but leave the stencil areas alone. 
Set the screen in front of a fan to help speed up the water shed and drying process.
Getting away from the dual cure emulsion is going to present a new learning curve for you, but it exposes quicker and may ultimately help you out.
I know I haven't provided any solid answers but I hope some of this helps. Good luck


----------



## Red Leaf (Feb 2, 2011)

I definitely agree with a few others here about using a simple garden hose attachment to wash out your screens. I used to use my pressure washer for it and found that it wasn't necessary if you get a proper burn. I only use high pressure for reclaiming


----------



## monkeystylz (Aug 6, 2012)

I agree with red leaf.. I also only use a pressure washer for reclaiming or removing the ghost image from my screens after using haze remover and paste. The one thing I normally do is spray the image with water using a water soray bottle and let it sit for a minute and then I start washing the image out and I noticed it does not take as long to washout the image when I do that. But it seems like you are narrowing things down and im glad to see your sticking with it until it is sorted out 

Sent from my GT-I9300T using T-Shirt Forums


----------



## monkeystylz (Aug 6, 2012)

It also helps to mist your screen in the dark room when doing it during the day if you wash the image outside. When the sun hits it the image will be a lot harder to wash out because the emulsion you want washed out has started to harden due to the sunlight. I learnt that one the hard way lol 

Sent from my GT-I9300T using T-Shirt Forums


----------



## jimcr (Feb 3, 2009)

NLeisenring said:


> Thanks! I set up my account and am planning a drive this week!.
> 
> In the mean time I tried a few more attempts with the current emulsion. I have had success... sort of. See the attached pictures. This screen was burned with a 500 watt halogen(glass removed) at 15 minutes with vinyl/clear tape artwork. It took a long time to washout, maybe like 5-7 minutes. Towards the end of washout the edges began blowing out(I saved it in time). When I went to apply newspaper to begin the drying process, the paper stuck pretty hard and pulled off some of the emulsion with it. Also I noticed brownish yellow liquid(I assume the diazo) on the newspaper as well. Does this confirm that the emulsion likely froze at one point?


The long wash out will account for the screen starting to blow out, misting or wetting for 30 seconds to 2 minutes before washing out might help. You do have a weak light source which is part of the cause your experiencing. So you have to get the emulsion soft enough to wash out but not so much that it blows out. This looks much better than you original pictures you posted. 
I would cut down your time by a minute and see if that helps the wash out. you could also take a scrubbie pad on the shirt side and give it a scrub before washout to aid softening the emulsion it may help.
Sometimes a pressure washer can help in this type of situation . Just some more things to try, your on the right track . Record your process so that it can be repeated. 
It does not get any easier if you switch to a photoplyomer , just exposes faster. 
I would also check and make sure that your bulb is indeed a 500watt bulb and not a 250.
As far as the brown substance it could be the diazo I am not sure on that.


----------



## sben763 (May 17, 2009)

The residue looks like diazo scum so that can be a indication of under exposer. If you use less time and it blows out then you most likely have a film problem with not being opaque enough. 

Using too much water can cause problems. 

For those saying that not recommended using a power washer for washout, a properly prepped screen, good film and proper exposure can handle a power washer. If your blowing out with a power washer at 12"-18" then you haven't prepped the screen properly or under exposed. After 7 years of learning, helping visiting shows, talking to reps it is apparent that 80-90% under expose. This is due to either weak light source, improper films, improper humidity levels during drying or storage of screens. There are many other reasons also but those are the major ones.


----------



## keepitspinning (Jan 13, 2014)

Thank you for backing me up on the power washer.
One thing that is interesting about this profession is you can ask 10 screen printers how to do something, and you will get 11 different answers, and no one is necessarily wrong. If it works for you, it is probably ok. That is not to say it is technically correct, but if if works and you get great results, so be it.
That is part of the reason when people respond on this forum (trying to help), you have to take it with a grain of salt. It may work for them under their exact conditions, but it may not work for you in yours.
I was fortune to start out with equipment that is more advanced that what you are using. I struggled using a real exposure unit.
I learned, much later than early, cutting corners causes problems. 
You have to take the time to figure it out.
I mentioned early on an exposure calculator. 
Right now you are guessing on exposure time. The calculator will help you narrow down the correct time for your situation.
Burning your screens is a shot in the dark and is a waste of your time. 
Second, someone commented about using dual cure. It obviously works for them.
My point for getting away from it is taking one more factor (mixing), out of the equation.
This is a science. It may not seem exact because so many can get similar results using different methods, BUT no two situations are alike. 
You may have the same wattage bulb as someone else, but is the light output exactly the same. 
We'll never know.
You've gone full circle on this, from exposure time, to frozen emulsion (by the way, when it happened to me, the emulsion came off the screen like it was not even exposed. Within a minute of be wet, it was dripping off the screen.
We use both power washer and garden hose to wash out screens. A power wash will work as long as it is fanned out, and you increase distance from the screen the further you get into the washout.
For what it is worth, I will repeat my opinion. I believe your problems are your washout procedure. It is taking too long, so you need to be more aggressive, BUT you still need an exposure calculator so you can dial in the correct burn time because your problem can be two fold, and you will not hold fine detail with improper exposure time.


----------



## rwshirts (Dec 5, 2007)

Hi. It's frustrating when problems occur. When you degrease your screens, I assume you also rinse them thoroghly with water? I can't address the exposure times, because I have a NuArc mercury vacuum exposure unit. My exposures are in the 1 1/2 to 2 minute range. I have switched to Ulano Orange emulsion with perfect results. Easy to coat, easy to rinse out after expose, and it holds the print. And the orange colored emulsion allows for easier see-thru registering for us non-micro register presses to register multi colors. Do you have a drying cabinet? We built a drying cabinet that holds 10 screens at a time. We added a blower to the bottom to help circulate fresh air (with a filtered inlet on top). I don't work in total darkness. There is light coming in during the day, but I use a "yellow" light above my work station. I store all coated screens in total darkness. After exposure, I wet screen down with a hose sprayer (city water pressure), wait 30 seconds or so, and continue rinsing until the print is exposed. I never use high pressure for washout, only screen clean up. That's just how we have refined our proccess. I'm low on the experience pole compared to a lot of the long time members here on the board. But what we do, works.


----------



## sben763 (May 17, 2009)

A calculator can be a good tool. But printing your own step wedge test and using is golden. Calculators has a specific density on the printing and then have a clear UV film added in steps. The problem with this is what you print will not be the same as the calculator as these are printed with a image setter with almost perfect density. 

Bob you are correct about the different methods and answers. Although some methods may work it doesn't make them correct. The biggest issue is under exposure. This can cause slim, detail loss, and irregular edges. It can also make screens harder to reclaim or even possibly lock a screen if severely under exposed.


----------



## keepitspinning (Jan 13, 2014)

Totally agree. Did not explain it clearly enough. One more point to make everyone feel good about the problem.
While we all gain knowledge as we go, little problems will rear their heads that will lead you to pulling your hair out. 
We have a problem that is seasonal with fish eyes in the screens. We still don't know what causes it.
The emulsion company had a factory personnel visit my shop to watch how we reclaim, clean and coat screens. Said we were doing everything right, and far better than most, but the problems persist.
I've talked to the city to see if they change something in the month the problems occur with processing our water. Nothing. All I know is there is a period of 4-6 weeks we cant coat screens without 1/2 of them having fish eyes. Some unusable, some outside the stencil are, but none the less frustrating. 
I'm going to date myself, but in the words of Rosanna Rosanna Danna, "just goes to show, it's always something"!


----------



## rwshirts (Dec 5, 2007)

keepitspinning said:


> Totally agree. Did not explain it clearly enough. One more point to make everyone feel good about the problem.
> While we all gain knowledge as we go, little problems will rear their heads that will lead you to pulling your hair out.
> We have a problem that is seasonal with fish eyes in the screens. We still don't know what causes it.
> The emulsion company had a factory personnel visit my shop to watch how we reclaim, clean and coat screens. Said we were doing everything right, and far better than most, but the problems persist.
> ...


Getting fisheyes now and then. It could be the deodorant you are wearing, underarms, or any skin lotions. Or if your shop has any silicones in it, such as Rain-x, silicones you use for treating car interiors. I keep my business truck parked in our shop.....25 feet away from the print area, but still may introduce silicones to the screen area.

Our fisheyes are very random, so hard to track down.

I worked in an auto assembly plant for 31 years, (retired) and since GM had introduced water based paints years ago, all paint department employees HAVE to use only recommended deodorants, no hair products, no colonges.....nothing that could end up in the paint finish. They wear disposable coveralls, and go through a blowdown before entering the restricted area of the paint department. Very strict guidelines to protect the paint finishes.

RW


----------



## NLeisenring (Jun 17, 2013)

keepitspinning said:


> Thank you for backing me up on the power washer.
> One thing that is interesting about this profession is you can ask 10 screen printers how to do something, and you will get 11 different answers, and no one is necessarily wrong. If it works for you, it is probably ok. That is not to say it is technically correct, but if if works and you get great results, so be it.
> That is part of the reason when people respond on this forum (trying to help), you have to take it with a grain of salt. It may work for them under their exact conditions, but it may not work for you in yours.
> I was fortune to start out with equipment that is more advanced that what you are using. I struggled using a real exposure unit.
> ...



I agree with everything you are saying. I have tried using a sprayer, a garden hose, and a power washer for washout. This last time I used the power washer while it was in the OFF position(it still shoots a stream out if there's water to it.) This gave me more directed pressure than the garden hose, but not too much to blow out the screen completely. I'm still stuck on the frozen emulsion. I am going to ONE STOP this week to pick up a new batch. I will grab an exposure calculator and some aluminum frames too and start over again! We'll get her figured out!


----------



## keepitspinning (Jan 13, 2014)

Just one precaution when using a power washer, and it is pretty much common sense. Always start with the spray off the screen. If the nozzle moved and the setting changed, it could be a pin point stream, and that WILL cut a hole right through the mesh.
Learned the hard way trying to remove an emulsion drip from the mesh.
Persistence will get you achieve answers.
Just make sure you document everything you are doing. It is easy for the steps to start blurring together and you are back to square one.
Keep us posted.


----------



## outbreak (Jan 9, 2010)

Did you figure it out?


----------



## DigitalInkArts (Jul 20, 2011)

Here is how I keep my stuff flat to burn perfect. A piece of one inch styro foam cut to screen size. I glue a piece of Black coroplast on top of that. Lay it inside the screen. 

I have a 2 inch board ( melamine) cut out slightly smaller than my screen size and place the screen over that so it all lays inside, flat and level.

Tape my artwork to the screen and I had to 3 1/4 inch glass cut to screen size. ( just below the wooden frame so it only sits on the screen ) I cleaned them real good with alcohol and put all three together. I then taped them all together with clear packing tape, all corners.

Now you have a nice heavy piece of glass. ( I did it this way because heavy thick glass is expensive.) 

The tape keeps them from sliding and NO dust gets in. 

Lay that on your screen with the foam board inside and you have a perfect seal!

I have used it for over a year this way with a 500 watt Halogen bulb 15 inches from screen and my screens wash perfect after 3:00 minutes.

I now have this stupid Mercury exposure vacuum unit and I can not get it to do anything. I think I see my old unit coming out of a short retirement!

Gotta have a good burn for a proper wash. Good luck.


----------



## keepitspinning (Jan 13, 2014)

Rather than posting what you use to do, post what you are doing now, specifically the equipment you are using, emulsion, etc. No one can offer constructive help with you bashing your new system that you obviously are not using properly


----------

