# buying a Direct to Garment (DTG) machine? which one?



## tony9897

hi
i am in the market and am about to buy a tjet, but the kornit looks nicer and the proof shirt i had made is of better color through the greens and browns. what's the difference in machines?

help?


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## tra517

*Re: buying a machine? which one?*

hi tony. I can't help you because I am new to this as well but I would like to hear others experiences with this as well as I never in a million years realized how many options you have when considering selling t-shirts.

also.. if you don't mind if I hijack your thread as well to post some info and questions too  

I am an artist and I am starting just a very small t-shirt company to put my art on to tees. I was looking for screenprinters and was hearing over and over again... your art is too expensive for screenprinting as it has too many colors. Some encouraged me to take the art down to black and white, but then I was at the dilema of having to use photoshop to break the art down into layers, which for many of the works I wanted for tees it was just impossible as the art was not created digitally.

anyhoooo that got me to looking for heat press transfer machines, then I found the T-Jet2 that appears to take a lot of the work out as it prints directly to the clothing. (this is what you have seen then too). I have not gotten my sample yet from the tjet.

can you tell me where to find information on the kornit?

also.. are there other machines besides tjet, kornit that print directly to the clothing? anyone using them and your opinions on them? thanks!

shell


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## martinwoods

*Re: buying a machine? which one?*

The Kornit I believe is around $200,000 and the Tjet is much less maybe $15,000. I have heard a lot of bad things about the tjet. I own a brother but they cannot print darks, I believe the flexi can (not sure) but that is the way I would go if wanting to do darks, not the tjet. Just my opionion but I have not heard many good things about the tjet
Check out the flexi forum and ask if they can do darks, if not then the brother is a good machine and I would go with that

Have a great day


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## Tgraphics

Hi,
I saw a demonstation of TJet and was unimpressed I thought it was very expensive and the quality of print uninspiring. The company in the UK that was selling it have now taken on the agency for DTG http://www.yesltd.co.uk/html/dtg_kiosk.html
Hope this helps
As for screenprinting your designs (I'm a great lover of screenprinting and think you can't beat it for quality and reproduction)


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## JeridHill

Hey Tony, here is a breakdown of what I know of these machines.

The T-Jet is a good machine. The problem is it's outdated. It's based on the Epson 2200, whereas other machines in comparible pricing are based on faster machines. The 2200 isn't real fast, but it is a good machine.
Price: $14,995 with white printing capabilities and $10,995 without white.

DTG Kiosk, it's the same thing as the T-Jet, as a matter of fact, the same company makes this machine that was making the T-Jet. It does have a couple of extra features built in that make it a little better than the T-Jet, but not that much of a difference.
Price: $10,995 no white inks that I know of. I believe they took the approach of not offering white ink until it's perfected.

The Flexi-Jet is based on the Epson 4800 and it is a great machine. It has, to date, as many bells and whistles on this machine than probably all the others combined. The longer model is design for faster production. The printer itself moves over the substrate giving you more control of what it is you want to print on, like wood, glass or tiles (most items need a precoat of an inkjet receptive liquid). The MAJOR problem with the Flexi-Jet to date is, production. There is no real valid timeline to order a machine and actually get one. I've heard from 2 weeks to 8 weeks and the dealings I had with them, it's definitely the latter. It is a great machine, unfortunately, production is critical. You want what you pay for and the delays only cause frustrations.
Price: $14,995 and $18,995 (with a 2 up platen design)

Brother is a great machine. It's fast, it's accurate and very simple to use. I don't have many problems with this machine, but what I do take issues with is very important in my book. When white ink does get perfected, this machine will never print on a dark garment. It's only a 4 color system, so Brother will have to introduce an entirely new machine to do that. I've heard they are working on one, but it estimates from 1 1/2 years to 2 down the road, depending on who you talk to. I think the price range is higher than what I would want to pay. $20,000 - $24,000 (I can never get a straight answer) is a higher price and never being able to print on a dark garment at that price is just too much. (The cost per ink is higher than others as well.) There are many people who bought the Brother and would disagree with me on this one, but again this is my opinion and probably the opinion of many others. The last thing about the Brother that bothers me is if you want to move your machine, you MUST contact a Brother technician and have them move it for you because it will void your warranty. Not good in my book.

I've heard good and bad when dealing with the Mimaki. They use a discharge ink that creates vapors that you don't want to breathe. I believe they either are or have done away with the discharge inks, but I'm not sure. It's another printer that isn't real fast. It is a solid built machine. The discharge inks do not create a real bright white and that is the major thing I hear about it.
Price: I believe it's around $25,000

I think the Kornit is in a class of it's own. I believe it is considered the fastest machine on the market today and it does print whites on darks. Two machine issues, size and cost. It's very big and heavy and I believe the cost is $180,000. They are now offering a new machine that will be revealed at the SGIA show that is targeted to mid to large businesses. So again, the price most likely will be way too high for the average user.

We will be introducing a machine at the SGIA show as well (based on the Epson 4800). This machine will produce more shirts per hour than any of the above mentioned machines (except for the Kornit) and at a price that is less than most of them.


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## martinwoods

DTG Printing said:


> We will be introducing a machine at the SGIA show as well (based on the Epson 4800). This machine will produce more shirts per hour than any of the above mentioned machines (except for the Kornit) and at a price that is less than most of them.


What booth will you be in?
Does this machine print white?
I think I've seen you over on paptech, is that correct, or is someone else also introducing a new machine as well

Have a great evening


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## Fluid

great info jerid


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## JeridHill

martinwoods said:


> What booth will you be in?
> Does this machine print white?
> I think I've seen you over on paptech, is that correct, or is someone else also introducing a new machine as well
> 
> Have a great evening


I'm not sure what paptech is. I do know more than one company is introducing a new printer to the market. The main issue is coming out with the easiest to use, excellent quality and speed and of course, price.

As for white inks, yes, our machine does.

I'll have to find out what booth we'll be in since it's the manufacturers who have the booth.


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## JeridHill

Fluid said:


> great info jerid


Hey Richard, thanks for the comment. I may be a little biased  but I am at least honest in my biasness (is that a word?)

One I forgot to mention was Sawgrass.

Their machine is $17,000 but from what I've seen and heard, their inks are not the greatest, even though they claim they are better than others on the market. Their's is a belt driven system and I know the motor they used to drive the system was the original Epson paper motor. They had many complications with it and did change it to a better motor. So that's pretty much that last I heard of theirs. It is based on the 4000.


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## timdardis.com

I am new to this forum but have been active on others.. I am interested in learing more about the machine you say WAS introduced last week at SGIA. Can you tell me the name? 

Also.. is there a provision for a private message on this forum?
Thanks
Tim
[email protected]


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## Solmu

timdardis.com said:


> Also.. is there a provision for a private message on this forum?


Yup, click on someone's user name and one of the options will be to send the user a private message. And there's a link to the private message area under the search box off to the left.


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## timdardis.com

duh, I guess I just need to search the tools a bit! sorry to be so dense!THANKS!! I appreciate your help...
Tim


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## TahoeTomahawk

DTG Printing said:


> I'm not sure what paptech is. I do know more than one company is introducing a new printer to the market. The main issue is coming out with the easiest to use, excellent quality and speed and of course, price.
> 
> As for white inks, yes, our machine does.
> 
> I'll have to find out what booth we'll be in since it's the manufacturers who have the booth.


Does your white ink still need the pre-treatement? 

Are you using similar inks as the T-Jet and DTG Kiosk printers? I don't know if they are actually different though the T-Jet calls them FastInk and DTG calls them DTG TEX / TEX 2 inks.


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## FabrixDigital

Kornit is pretty expensive - we have the Brother and it is great - incidentally, Zazzle has both Kornit and Brother machines. Now that Brother machine has refilled cartridges available - great savings in ink ... we've been using this ink for three months and no problems.


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## Rodney

> Zazzle has both Kornit and Brother machines.


Do they have this information published anywhere? Last I heard, they were pretty tight lipped about which machines they were using.

Does the Brother machine print on dark garments?


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## martinwoods

We own a brother and NO it does not print on dark as in black but we did just print some osha orange shirts for a band and they turned out great.

Teresa


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## FabrixDigital

Hiya:
I know someone who works in the production dept. there.... Brother does not print on dark shirts - love to talk to you directly since you are the adminstrator of this site. 
Art - [email protected]


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## FabrixDigital

Have the Brother - works great, looks great, very reliable and easy to use. And now there is refilled ink cartridges for great savings. You can ask me for more info.


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## Tshirtcrib

I was curious if the inks from these machines wear out, or dull over a short period of time.


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## Rodney

> know someone who works in the production dept. there.... Brother does not print on dark shirts - love to talk to you directly since you are the adminstrator of this site.


Feel free to send me a Private Message or use the contact page to get in contact with me directly.


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## DAGuide

FabrixDigital / Art,

Can you please provide us more information and pictures on the "refillable cartridges" that you are talking about? Everything that I have heard says Brother does not offer this option. I have heard people using a syringe/needle to push ink back into the cartridge / ink bladder, but there are several people that says this can do serious damage to the printhead. As you probably already know, the printhead on the Brother machine is very sensitive (i.e. once your machine is installed by a trained technican, you are not allowed to move it on your own without voiding your warranty). However, you might be in a different country than the U.S. or Brother might have you beta testing this option. They are big on beta testing something before releasing - which is why it took them longer to release their machine compared to these other printers. Let us know. Thanks.

Mark


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## FabrixDigital

Hi Mark - please give me your e-mail - the cartridges are already refilled - so no need for syringes etc. Works great on my machine... your printhead warranty is for a very limited time so by the time you've run through a number of regular cartridges you are past that time. Don't know how syringe system damages printheads - we have something like six different wide format inkjet machines - not including desktops - and have not run into this at all and we are using third party inks for them. Brother doesn't like you to move the machine but I know of people who have ... without the time consuming draining of ink lines ... and it has been fine. And not just to another place in the plant.


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## DAGuide

I sent you a PM. The problem with using the syringe/needle method is that you can get containaments or an air bubble in the ink blatter and that is what hurts the printhead. This came from one of Brother's beta tester that did this and the printhead had to be replaced. I can't remember what the cost was to replace the printhead, but it was not cheap. Luckily for him, it did not cost anything since he was beta testing it. I am looking forward to the information and please let me know your ink source.


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## FabrixDigital

Hiya Tony:

We have the Brother and it really is great... very reliable and fast and now with refilled cartridges for big savings. Contact me for more info....


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## timdardis.com

I have heard very few bad things about the Brother machine.. a couple of items that I have read.. as compared to the Flexi machine... the ink is a little more expensive.. the verdict is out about the amount of ink used to print the same image of the same size.. but my gut tells me the flexi is a bit more econmical. The Brother machine will NEVER print white ink... The Brother is more expensive to buy... all that said I would be happy to own a Brother... but I did decide on the Flexi-jet for many reasons.. none of which were major deal killers for the Brother.. in other words I prefer the flexi due to some of it's options the Brother does not have... BUT.. I would have had the Brother in my shop if I had ordered it... I am still waiting for the Flexi... Brother is huge.. they have stock.. Flexi is small and are trying to keep up with demand.. FWIW.. another good forum to visit is www.inkjetgarmentprinters.com
HAVE FUN!
Tim


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## happy101067

DTG Printing said:


> Hey Tony, here is a breakdown of what I know of these machines.
> 
> The T-Jet is a good machine. The problem is it's outdated. It's based on the Epson 2200, whereas other machines in comparible pricing are based on faster machines. The 2200 isn't real fast, but it is a good machine.
> Price: $14,995 with white printing capabilities and $10,995 without white.
> 
> DTG Kiosk, it's the same thing as the T-Jet, as a matter of fact, the same company makes this machine that was making the T-Jet. It does have a couple of extra features built in that make it a little better than the T-Jet, but not that much of a difference.
> Price: $10,995 no white inks that I know of. I believe they took the approach of not offering white ink until it's perfected.
> 
> The Flexi-Jet is based on the Epson 4800 and it is a great machine. It has, to date, as many bells and whistles on this machine than probably all the others combined. The longer model is design for faster production. The printer itself moves over the substrate giving you more control of what it is you want to print on, like wood, glass or tiles (most items need a precoat of an inkjet receptive liquid). The MAJOR problem with the Flexi-Jet to date is, production. There is no real valid timeline to order a machine and actually get one. I've heard from 2 weeks to 8 weeks and the dealings I had with them, it's definitely the latter. It is a great machine, unfortunately, production is critical. You want what you pay for and the delays only cause frustrations.
> Price: $14,995 and $18,995 (with a 2 up platen design)
> 
> Brother is a great machine. It's fast, it's accurate and very simple to use. I don't have many problems with this machine, but what I do take issues with is very important in my book. When white ink does get perfected, this machine will never print on a dark garment. It's only a 4 color system, so Brother will have to introduce an entirely new machine to do that. I've heard they are working on one, but it estimates from 1 1/2 years to 2 down the road, depending on who you talk to. I think the price range is higher than what I would want to pay. $20,000 - $24,000 (I can never get a straight answer) is a higher price and never being able to print on a dark garment at that price is just too much. (The cost per ink is higher than others as well.) There are many people who bought the Brother and would disagree with me on this one, but again this is my opinion and probably the opinion of many others. The last thing about the Brother that bothers me is if you want to move your machine, you MUST contact a Brother technician and have them move it for you because it will void your warranty. Not good in my book.
> 
> I've heard good and bad when dealing with the Mimaki. They use a discharge ink that creates vapors that you don't want to breathe. I believe they either are or have done away with the discharge inks, but I'm not sure. It's another printer that isn't real fast. It is a solid built machine. The discharge inks do not create a real bright white and that is the major thing I hear about it.
> Price: I believe it's around $25,000
> 
> I think the Kornit is in a class of it's own. I believe it is considered the fastest machine on the market today and it does print whites on darks. Two machine issues, size and cost. It's very big and heavy and I believe the cost is $180,000. They are now offering a new machine that will be revealed at the SGIA show that is targeted to mid to large businesses. So again, the price most likely will be way too high for the average user.
> 
> We will be introducing a machine at the SGIA show as well (based on the Epson 4800). This machine will produce more shirts per hour than any of the above mentioned machines (except for the Kornit) and at a price that is less than most of them.


Dear Jerid,

I am very much impessed to read yr reply for Tony. I am based in Dubai, and I wish to start DTG Printing unit and Tajima / SWF Embroidery unit. The scope of business is fairly good for me as I am already having a Mfg. unit for T-shirts in India and a trading partner company in Dubai. We are in huge volume business. Can u suggest me, what brand m/c will be suitable for me, both considering the price and quality. The most important issue which cannot be sidelined is the frequency of troubleshooting in DTG Printing m/c.

Await yr reply,

happy101067


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## csquared

depending on the volume you are doing your machines selection will be slim as not many companies offer high volume DTG machines. USSIT offers the jumbo2 and the proHV. The proHV can print up to 300 shirts an hour while the Jumbo 2 can print up to 130 shirts an hour. The beauty of the proHV is that is can be run by only two people. hope that helps


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## JeridHill

happy101067 said:


> Dear Jerid,
> 
> I am very much impessed to read yr reply for Tony. I am based in Dubai, and I wish to start DTG Printing unit and Tajima / SWF Embroidery unit. The scope of business is fairly good for me as I am already having a Mfg. unit for T-shirts in India and a trading partner company in Dubai. We are in huge volume business. Can u suggest me, what brand m/c will be suitable for me, both considering the price and quality. The most important issue which cannot be sidelined is the frequency of troubleshooting in DTG Printing m/c.
> 
> Await yr reply,
> 
> happy101067


Thanks for the kind words. I try to be as open and honest as I can about these thing, without stepping on people's pride.

I guess the issue becomes, what kind of support do you require, are you wanting to print using white inks and what is your price range.

Being in Dubai means you are most likley limited to a select few if you want support (at least phone support). Email and internet support is common among the various machines, it's just a matter of parts and supplies.

With the issue of printing with white ink, quite frankly, I wouldn't even consider it at this point. There are still too many variables and incosistencies that lead to a lot of misprints. I know many people have gotten it down a lot better than before but most often than not, you will be printing more than you need because of the high spoilage rate. Even with the improved systems, there are still too many difficulties in printing with white ink. Most people I have talked to that uses white ink, ends up stop using it because there are too many frustrations. I still believe the white ink is just not ready for prime time. Not unless you are selling shirts for $35 each (USD). 

As for pricing, I know of machines starting at $8,500 and going all the way up to $250,000. In my personal opinion, regardless of what others may say, the higher end of the scale in price is way overboard and not justifiable. There are companies that have purchased the high dollar machines and I'm sure they are more than paid for, but again, I think the prices are just too much for what you are getting. We are competing with a screen printing world and the companies that purchase the high dollar machines are still printing one and two up designs. They are doing mass quantities of various designs and that is the only way I could ever justify that kind of cost. But again, it's high priced, but at this point, it's serving a purpose.

In the near future, there are larger machines that can do multiple ups at a much lower cost and it just makes sense.

Your decision on the machine is going to be based on what will suit you and your business best.

Good luck!


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## FabrixDigital

We have two Brother machines - fast, troublefree, easy to operate, great prints. And we use third party ink - for big savings. We moved the second machine and the warranty is rather meaningless - it was fine. We also had to replace two print heads (it was time) on the first machine. Very easy - they just snap in and you run the test pattern. All in all - one of the best investments we've ever made in machines.

Art


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## csquared

Art do those third party inks print the same as your other ones (exact colors...)?


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## FabrixDigital

They have been working well for us - we take your empties and they are professionally refilled - you get 220 ml for $125 - or half price of Brother cartridges. You just plug them in and start printing.

Art


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## aceincprint

FabrixDigital said:


> They have been working well for us - we take your empties and they are professionally refilled - you get 220 ml for $125 - or half price of Brother cartridges. You just plug them in and start printing.
> 
> Art


What are your ink sources? Any information to help save some money on ink would be great...


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## tony9897

FabrixDigital said:


> They have been working well for us - we take your empties and they are professionally refilled - you get 220 ml for $125 - or half price of Brother cartridges. You just plug them in and start printing.
> 
> 
> how can i get cheap dtg ink?


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## Printzilla

Buy DuPont.


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## Mistewoods

tony9897 said:


> FabrixDigital said:
> 
> 
> 
> They have been working well for us - we take your empties and they are professionally refilled - you get 220 ml for $125 - or half price of Brother cartridges. You just plug them in and start printing.
> 
> 
> how can i get cheap dtg ink?
> 
> 
> 
> DuPont or R & H are available from the place we buy supplies dtginks.com for $260 per liter, I am pretty sure.
Click to expand...


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## Printzilla

Printzilla said:


> Buy DuPont.



I meant the company...not the ink.


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## blibby53

where do you get your refilled ink, i have had my brother two months and love it, will it void the warranty? Thanks, Barb


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## zoom_monster

Printzilla said:


> I meant the company...not the ink.


LMFAO I hear they're building a nice new shiny factory.... I think it's going up in price.. the ink not the company!!


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## elTostador

JeridHill said:


> With the issue of printing with white ink, quite frankly, I wouldn't even consider it at this point. There are still too many variables and incosistencies that lead to a lot of misprints. I know many people have gotten it down a lot better than before but most often than not, you will be printing more than you need because of the high spoilage rate. Even with the improved systems, there are still too many difficulties in printing with white ink. Most people I have talked to that uses white ink, ends up stop using it because there are too many frustrations. I still believe the white ink is just not ready for prime time. Not unless you are selling shirts for $35 each (USD).


Hi all!

I have a succesful t-shirt project already (combining industrial transfers and screen printing), but I'm studing very seriously the DTG possibilities, since our new project will be based on one-time personalizations... and mainly for dark garment. 

And here goes my question: I've read already a great deal of posts in here and everybody states what a pain in the a** is working with white inks for dark apparel. I'm based in Spain, and for whatever the reason, 90% of the apparel we sell here is BLACK (I know in the US is just the opposite, amusing, so therefore, I would be facing such pain in almost every unit I produced.

I know that sites such Cafepress, Zazzle, etc use solely DTG (I'm I wrong?), also for dark t-shirts, with no extra cost or delay. Where is the trick then? Is it really that bad or with +$100,000 machines is much more easier? As far as I read here, it should be the same for all.

What am I missing?

Thanks in advance for your help!
Albert


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## zoom_monster

The "pain" refered to is the pretreatment. On the Kornit, the machine does do this. So from that standpoint and the fact that the ink is less expensive per liter .... the more expensive machine might be less of a pain. The other fact to these machines (all of them) is, the maintenance for white ink is more intense. Any machine that you pick, will work better and more profitably the more work you can feed it. They do not like to be idol very much and the daily/weekly maintenace will need to be continued. Come up with your plan, and find a machine that will fill your needs.


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## elTostador

Thanks, Ian.

But it seems the pretreatment requires some pressing, then spraying, then another quick pressing, moisturing... and only then the garment is ready for the printing. Can really a machine do that automatically for you? How?

Another issue here that I'm not sure about: what about the software? Does it take the same time and work "on the computer" to launch a work that is printed over white than over dark? Do you have to prepare more things on the software side? (creating white layers, etc...)


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## zoom_monster

On the more basic "epson" head based units this is true. on the Big Guy, the pretreatment is sprayed in the image area through it's own head and the inks are printed on this wet layer.... no need to dry or press until the shirt has been printed. As far as artwork is concerned, the more you know about proper art preparation the better, but a RIP (the software) can at least make the underbase part more user friendly, where a person can work in a more or less WYSWYG fashon. "It's almost as easy as printing to a desktop printer" in that regard.


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## DAGuide

elTostador said:


> But it seems the pretreatment requires some pressing, then spraying, then another quick pressing, moisturing... and only then the garment is ready for the printing. Can really a machine do that automatically for you? How?


The Kornit machines runs a very different type of ink than the rest of the machines. Thus, this machine does not use the same type of pretreatment. Most people describe it more as an activator. The activator is spray via a completely different nozzle set up outside of the printhead and basically soaks the entire area of the shirt. It is not like the printhead where it fires ink down only where the design is going. 

For the rest of the machines, the pretreatment is absolutely more work. However, if you develop a system that works well for you...it is not as bad as what you are reading. The problem with it is there is no real good formula that works on all types of shirts. The pretreatment may vary depending on what type of fabric you are printing on and what color the is shirt. The only way to know is to practice! Some people don't want to put the effort in to doing the testing since they invested in a machine worth 5-6 figures. This is still an emerging technology. So, you are going to have challenges. If you are wanting something that is simple to do and no testing, don't print white ink. Stick to CMYK. However, the real money to be made is printing black shirts. Thus, the more work...the more profit.



elTostador said:


> Another issue here that I'm not sure about: what about the software? Does it take the same time and work "on the computer" to launch a work that is printed over white than over dark? Do you have to prepare more things on the software side? (creating white layers, etc...)


There are several different types of software out there. Some of the RIPs have auto white mask layers. Some only give you one option, others give you multiple options. Definitely do your research into what RIP software comes with your printer. Get the distributor / manufacturer of the machine to walk you through all the steps to printing. Most of them allow you to create your own white layer as well.

I apologize if you find my answers straight forward, but it is absolutely what I have experienced and heard from several other dtg users. Hope this information helps you in your decision making process.

Mark


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## jki540

to add to ian's comments. 

i've wondered abt cafepress and zazzle too. many speculate that both companies use kornit to do their dark shirts. with the kornit the pretreatment process is totally different from all the other 'epson' based printers. the kornit is far more automated. the rest of the printers involve the steps you mentioned earlier.

the steps you mentioned earlier - you'll note - are all manual. the kornit process is far more automated. whenever you introduce a manual element (aka, human intervention), the quality becomes less consistent. this is true with EVERYTHING you productionalize. not just t-shirts. the key is to develop a 'system' that allows you to be as consistent with your manual processes as possible.

i believe that some members of this forum (such as Ian and a few others) have a 
'system' that works for what they do. thus, they are satisfied. others on this forum are frustrated b/c a workable system continues to elude them.

a further confounding factor is that not all systems will work in all environments. the systems are not portable. they are subject to many outside factors such as humidity, temp, graphics used, t-shirt quality, customer expectations, etc....this leads to further frustration b/c what works for one does not work for all.

Ian gave me the best advice before i bought my DTG...it was to be patient, experiment, and be prepared to invest a lot of time and money into crafting a system that works for you.


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## elTostador

Thanks guys for your information. Well, the quality that our clients expect, is as good as cafepress or zazzle's one. We'd be in a similar niche, but in different markets.

Any idea of how much is the cheapest Kornit? Is the production cost (in terms of ink) much lower?


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## elTostador

Well, I contacted our distributor in Spain, and the price for the Kornit 932DS (the cheapest of the family) runs for a heafty 78,000 eur (US$110,280)!

I'm SURE in the US this model is way cheaper. 

Regarding production costs:

- Over light apparel, average A4 printing size: 73 units/hour, 0.12 cents/unit
- Over dark apparel, average A4 printing size: 30 units/hour, 0.28 cents/unit

This seems to be way less than the rest of the printers, in terms of printing cost. How much is a typical print over dark? $2-3? Here we would be talking about 10 times less, if these figures are accurate (I guess in reality wouldn't be as cheap)

Unfortunately, this amount is much more that we can afford at this moment. I wonder if there is any 2nd hand market for such products... or if this machine could be bought somewhere else for cheaper.

Once, I bought a screen printing machine much cheaper just contacting directly the company and asking for 2nd hand machines. I guess I was just lucky


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## broidery

Tgraphics said:


> Hi,
> I saw a demonstation of TJet and was unimpressed I thought it was very expensive and the quality of print uninspiring. The company in the UK that was selling it have now taken on the agency for DTG http://www.yesltd.co.uk/html/dtg_kiosk.html
> Hope this helps
> As for screenprinting your designs (I'm a great lover of screenprinting and think you can't beat it for quality and reproduction)


Thank you for your previous post....would you have any updates to this information now that it is years later? It would be great to know more about advances in white ink. Why is it scientifically an issue. I have this idea in my head that I can make a better decision if I understand why the technology has it's challenges. Any help is appreciated. Small shop with short run target, but artists that don't accept light shirts for their work.


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## allengibson

there are t jets on ebay for as low as 2000 dollars,,i actually know of a printing company that bought one and just threw it in the trash...i own the brother 541 but i hear the 782 that does whites is really nice ,,but the thing ive seen that may work the best and least expensive is 2 brother 541 machines,,one with white ink and one with color.....


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## Dhiast

Hello guys,

I'm new here. I'm from malaysia.I've been in the t-shirt business for 9 years already but the competition is strong here. Now we are looking to this dtg printing business. it's still a fresh business here. Not many are doing this kind of business yet. So if you guys can help me in researching which printer is the best that would be a helping hand. Saw DTG printer in 1 of thedealers here. Good printing quality but is there others printer that is better. in malaysia there's only DTG printer distributor here so it's DTG or nothing. Can u guys give any advice?


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## Stitch-Up

I believe this thread was started in 2006 and I'm sure things have moved on a lot since then?

I know asking the question - which is the best is rather futile however, there are many NOT to buy!

So I'd be interested in hearing from you, more experienced guys - maybe the question should be:

Knowing what you know now, which DTG printer would you buy now, and why?

Cheers

John


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## Dhiast

We are looking foward to buy this DTg printer the viper. Need advice form who has had this machine.


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## signuniversity

I have had a DTG Kiosk with white ink for 3 years. What everyone here needs to remember is that these machines are high maintenance, they need a lot of attention, you should be prepared to clean the excess ink off of the print head, capping station and wiper almost daily.

If you buy any of these machines especially with white ink you need to shake the bottles of white ink daily and make sure you keep ink circulating through the print head or you will be replacing heads frequently due to head clogs mainly on the white ink.

I had my machine for almost 2 years before I had to replace the print head. Since then 2 more, one was after trying a 3rd party ink in an attempt to save money.

If you use it every day and keep it clean you should be fine.


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## choppinsky

el tostador says the Kornit prints "Over light apparel, average A4 printing size: 73 units/hour, 0.12 cents/unit
- Over dark apparel, average A4 printing size: 30 units/hour, 0.28 cents/unit
"
These numbers are very subjective in my opinion. I'm not sure what an A4 size is, but a 10 inch by 12 inch size might be called fairly common. The I Dot Printer from M&R would print the light ground design in about 90 seconds from load to unload. It would print the same image on black in about 210 seconds. Costs on the light image would be about 14-20 cents, while the image on black with white underbase would likely be closer to 1.00. Speed on the Kornit is somewhat faster for dark shirts, and requires no pretreatment. Image quality would generally be better on I Dot. Huge cost difference with the I Dot at about 20,500.


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## Don-ColDesi

A4 is basically letter size (about 8.27" x 11.69"). 
An image that size would print in about 45-60 seconds on lights on and HM1-C and 135-180 seconds on darks. Ink cost could be as low as a dime on lights and as high as $2 on darks - all depends on coverage. Machine cost - under $14,000


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## Stitch-Up

Do you export to UK?

How much is the Viper?

John


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## choppinsky

Don, 
I sincerely doubt that there would be any speed advantage to an HM1-C over an I Dot. I have also seen images in 8.5x11 that neither machine could accomplish in less than 4 minutes at best, for example, a rectangular solid of white underbase with overprint. You and I know that there are no significant differences in the speed of two comparable Epson engines, nor the flow characteristics of the Dupont inks. The main differences will be in the size capability, the resolution and registration from underbase white to overprint cmyk, the ease of manipulation of artwork on different grounds, whether or not the machine comes ready to print with computer and workstation, the level of training and support after the sale, and most of all, the image quality and durability.
ANY person contemplating the purchase of such a machine should have, when possible, his own image printed by any company he is considering buying a mchine from, and receive time and cost information on the sample.


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## equipmentzone

choppinsky said:


> Don,
> I have also seen images in 8.5x11 that neither machine could accomplish in less than 4 minutes at best, for example, a rectangular solid of white underbase with overprint.



Here is a video, in real time, of the Veloci-Jet XL Printer doing a 12 inch long imprint in 3 minutes.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iMkdhkhWxI[/media]
Harry
Equipment Zone


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## choppinsky

I can't get the vid to work Harry, but I'd like to see it. Is it on your site ot Youtube?


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## Stitch-Up

I can get the video to work here but all on the website give me errors! 

John


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## equipmentzone

choppinsky said:


> I can't get the vid to work Harry, but I'd like to see it. Is it on your site ot Youtube?



Here is the YouTube direct link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iMkdhkhWxI


Harry
Equipment Zone


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## choppinsky

Thanks, Harry. Not exactly what I was talking about with the white rectangle, since your image has some significant negative space, and I am guilty of an educated guess on the 4 minutes remark to Don. What was the ink cost, if you know?It would be very interesting, in a show environment for example, to see your image or an equivalent one printed on competitive machines, in sequence on a white shirt and a black shirt and examine speeds and print quality. Maybe at SGIA? A Digital print-off?
One thing I have seen, is that many printers when examining digital garment printers want to print the same blocky heavy-deposit artwork they commonly print for their local Bar-sponsored softball team, and are often surpirsied at time and cost to accomplish this standard artwork.


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## equipmentzone

The print time on any direct to garment printer is affected more by the length of the print then the width. That is why you see many exhibitors at trade shows printing narrow band prints because the overall print time will be much less then if they did longer length prints. 

The quality of the print and the overall ink laydown are also greatly affected by the quality of the RIP program used by the printer. With regard to the print cost on the image printed by our Veloci-Jet XL Printer in our video, the cost calculator in our EZ Artist/EZ RIP program put it at $1.55. 

Harry
Equipment Zone


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## Don-ColDesi

> Don,
> I sincerely doubt that there would be any speed advantage to an HM1-C over an I Dot. I have also seen images in 8.5x11 that neither machine could accomplish in less than 4 minutes at best, for example, a rectangular solid of white underbase with overprint.


Hi Choppinsky,
Your comparison of the two print engines is incorrect. The desktop based direct to garment printers with 2400, 1800, 1900 are most definitely faster than the 4800, 4880 based machines [translation - HM1-C, Kiosk 3, Veloci-Jet, Anajet vs. Viper, Flexi-Jet, i-Dot, Blazer]. There is more efficency in the narrower carriage printers (they don't return to "home" every pass like the LF [17" + wide printers] do).
Please note I am not bashing or promoting any brand here - simply stating facts on the core engines these machines are built on.
Hope this helps!


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## Stitch-Up

This thread and the many others are very interesting to read but, as a prospective DTG printer purchaser, I don't know if all this reading is doing me any good! 

I note the *VIPER-VERSA is due out sometime. Anyone got an approxiamate date for this or any further details?

Cheers

John
*


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## nyx567

What about the Kornit entry level dtg, how long has that been out, what is the price, is it worth it.


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## cavedave

Don is correct about the 2100,2200, 2400, 1800 and 1900 machines being faster than 4800, 4880 machines and the main reason for this is actually down to the Epson firmware and the drivers.

In the case of the 4800/4880 machines you have to use the built in micoweaving code, so you basically send 1 line of pixels for each colour and each line to be printed and then the printer decides how to put these dots on the media and how many passes to make for a given resolution.

For the lower end machines such as the 1800 and 1900, the microweaving code is performed in the driver software. The data for these machines is much more complicated and if you ever print to file you will also see the file sizes are much larger.
Because of this at 720x720 (and all other resolutions) we can drive the machine twice as fast as a 4800, by doing 1/2 as many head passes (basically putting down the ink faster).

The 1800 firmware also puts down more ink at 1440x1440 than the 4880 machine (and the 2400).
So an 1800 can do the underbase twice as quick as a 4800 and a brighter white.

Best regards

-David


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## Belquette

> Don is correct about the 2100,2200, 2400, 1800 and 1900 machines being faster than 4800, 4880 machines and the main reason for this is actually down to the Epson firmware and the drivers.


Right, and the current list order ( 2100,2200,2400, 1800,1900) also represents speeds from lowest to highest.



> So an 1800 can do the underbase twice as quick as a 4800 and a brighter white.


 True along with the 1900.
If one needs the extra 4 inches of print width you definitely sacrifice total throughput using any 4800/4880 print engine.

Keep in mind that machines with similar print engines can perform quite different due to how they are engineered.
The additional engineering built around any print engine is the critical factor that ultimately determines its' true potential and longevity. 
One of the most critical and least talked about is the ability to provide smooth platen movements. 
This involves quite sophisticated hardware and software to avoid jerky harsh moves that happen on virtually all DTG printers including T-Jets, DTG, Anajet among others that use the OEM paper feed motor driven by the OEM print engine to drive a now much heavier platen assembly. This is easily observed by first simply watching how the platen moves during a print cycle. 
The first tell tale sign that a DTG printer is using the original OEM platen motor is the first move it makes by doing a little back and and forth move before it starts to print. The next is the abrupt moves each time the platen advances, followed by an uncontrolled eject move that can be violent. 
This harsh move increases with lower resolutions such as when printing in 720x720 mode to a point that causes the platen to shake the entire machine making higher speed prints unacceptable due to banding. 

The OEM motor was only designed to advance paper in the OEM print engine and intended to move very rapidly from move to move with little or no acceleration, since the load is so light it does not require it. The quick starts and stops adds up to over all faster print speeds but can and is detrimental if the original drive and motor is used to move the platen.

So next time you observe a DTG printer going through it cycle watch for these signs and ask why does that platen move so funky and why is it so harsh when it moves.
More then likely this question will be so perplexing you will just get a blank stare and a change in subject.
It's what's inside that you do not see that should become more transparent and ultimately what separates machines with similar print engines designed for industrial use over recreational use.


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## DanielleNY

I want to buy a printer, I;m new in business please tell me BROTHER GT- 541 or VELOCI JET-DTG.... I need some advise, price , colors, maintenance, I'm a woman and I need really think
before I going in this business. It is hard to do a maintenance
Thank's very much


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## Stitch-Up

Having lurked in this section of the forum for a while and having read nearly every post and spoken with a lot of people, I've come to the conclusion that if you want DTG printing, relatively trouble free, the Brother GT-541 is the way to go. The down side is, it can't print on darks.

The Brother was designed from the ground up as a DTG printer whilst others seem to bastardise existing Epson printheads. Epson printheads were not designed for DTG hence the problems you might have read about.

I have researched various other brands and read the whole section of this forum about the brand. I've discovered there are owners who also read these forums, who've experienced horrendous problems with their garment printers and, not wishing to cause a breakdown in relations between the vendor and themselves, don't post they're woes! What they do do, sometimes, is to send you private messages with details of their experiences and I'm very thankful for that.

John


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## JeridHill

There are pros and cons to every machine. The Brother is a reliable machine, no doubt, but if you run most other machines with no white ink, you will have a reliable printer just as the Brother. People keep talking about how the Brother built theirs from the ground up and what a difference that makes. It's the white ink that is and has been the problem. It's my understanding that maintenance on the Brother printing white is more and if not taken care of will cause problems.

I now have a Mod1 here with me and ever since I've had it in, I've had no problems whatsoever with white or colors. I've only had it since last week, but I've been doing a lot of testing. My maintenance is less than five minutes a day. With the advances continually forging ahead, the built from ground up theory is less and less of a factor. That's my opinion and could be slightly biased, but all in all, I try to be as objective as I can when dealing with direct to garment, or anything else for that matter.


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## TahoeTomahawk

I agree with Jerrid, after printing with white ink for the last 3 years, the white ink is what causes the problems. It is so rare that we have problems with any other channels or color issues on a white shirt. It's always with the white ink.

That being said, I too recently purchased a MOD1. It is leaps and bounds ahead of the DTG Kiosks we were using with white ink.


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## Don-ColDesi

> That being said, I too recently purchased a MOD1. It is leaps and bounds ahead of the DTG Kiosks we were using with white ink.


I have to agree with you on that one Adam. 4 years of development in a marektplace will do that. Current models of the DTG line handle the white ink much better than earlier generations as well.


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## TahoeTomahawk

The Kiosk is a great machine to get started with DTG and learning white ink printing. Anyone who has their own clothing line or needs the ability to do very short runs should look into a Kiosk. When it's time for more production capacity, then look for a faster, capable machine.


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## Stitch-Up

This sorta says it for me.



vinstr said:


> I've had 3 different Epson based machines and now the Brother GT-541...
> There is NO comparison. The Gt-541 is in a different league and I only wish I had bought this one first. There is 90% less maintenance and almost no downtime...just turn it on and print. It is amazing and I would NEVER buy another epson based machine. I would recommend this to anyone.


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## TahoeTomahawk

vinstr said:


> I've had 3 different Epson based machines and now the Brother GT-541...
> There is NO comparison. The Gt-541 is in a different league and I only wish I had bought this one first. There is 90% less maintenance and almost no downtime...just turn it on and print. It is amazing and I would NEVER buy another epson based machine. I would recommend this to anyone.


Unless you need to print with white ink.
I'd like to see more reports from people using brothers with white ink, I highly doubt the maintenance is as easy and trouble free as a CMYK only printer.


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## Don-ColDesi

I received this response from our head engineer regarding Mark's post above about motors,

Hi Don.
We use a 3 phase brushless motor as well, below is a picture of ours. The original motor is far too weak of course. The motor on the left in their picture and in my picture below is an Epson original. 

The basic requirement of a device to move a platen is that the platen is in position ready to receive the next band of print, if this requires the platen to move one inch in half a second then it is moving 2 inches per second. If this seems quick it is because that is the timing requirement of the Epson engine. The speed at which the platen advances is directly proportional to the resolution in that direction i.e. 720 dpi is faster than 1440dpi print. Our eject and rewind sequence is CONTROLLED at reasonably high speed, where is the benefit of ejecting at one inch per second when we can do it at say 10 inches per second ?

Our CONTROLLED eject leaves the platen in the same precise place each time.

When we load our media it is a fast CONTROLLED forward movement, a slow CONTROLLED reverse movement and finally a slow CONTROLLED forward movement, further more our load, eject and reverse cycles all ramp up and down (gradual increase/decrease in speed to reach maximum/minimum velocity)

Having said all that their motor certainly is shinier than ours!










You may want to change the "only" statement in your post. Great engineering minds often think alike - I put Mark in the same category as our engineers. Just wanted to clarify that the 3 phase brushless servo motor was not a Belquette exclusive.


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## FatKat Printz

Hey Don which printers use servos? Both my DTG brand printers have the stock epson motors. For everything, bed, wiper, and belt that runs the carriage. They're all cheap stepper motors.


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## fwynn

Hi I am just started off and I am going to get a 16*20 heat press machine. Is that ok?


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## FatKat Printz

yes, digital knight w/ auto pop up is excellent other helpful items to think about (save a lot of money)

**DTG release paper http://colmanandcompany.com/static_store/DTGRPAPER.html***

get more out of one piece compared to parchment paper and its pre-cut

Top Teflon Cover (use in place of a Teflon Sheet)
Hotronix® Heat Press Accessories | Stahls' Hotronix

Bottom Slip Cover (makes it easier to put shirt on and off heat press)
Teflon Wrap - 16" X 20": Colman and Company - Discount Commercial Embroidery Supplies - Machine Embroidery Supplies Catalog


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## spoonh2b

great info


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