# Pricing custom sublimation jobs



## Denyevil (Oct 1, 2008)

Im sublimating soccer uniforms for a client that provided me the jerseys. I created a cool design with front/back numers with special effects. What is the standard for pricing such a job.
There are 60 uniforms so most of the time is spent designing and printing. I was thinking $20 a uniform? What do you think? Too cheap?


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## skdave (Apr 11, 2008)

You are on the low side. $36.00 per shirt.


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## Riderz Ready (Sep 18, 2008)

Actually you are not on the low side but closer to the high side. There is no way on earth you can get $36 per shirt when someone is providing you the shirt to print. 

You have a couple challenges. Soccer has not caught up with many sports on custom designed uniforms thus you will be battling against screen printers and/or vinyl pressers - both are on the low end cost wise. 

Second, in double pressing 60 shirts, unless you are very experienced, you could have 3+ mistakes thus you would want a couple extra's. 

Having not seen the proposed artwork I would guess a standard logo on the front with a number on the back you would be doing good to get $20.00 in the soccer market.


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## Denyevil (Oct 1, 2008)

Yeah I'm with you. Even with experience I have learned that it is tough to avoid all issues when sublimating. These are Nike uniforms which makes the job even more scary! Here is my methodology so let me know what you think:
1-tack butcher paper on the platen
2-slide the uniform over the platen (like when screen printing) 
3-spray light tack on uniform to keep art from ghosting
4-use another piece of butcher paper as a cover sheet
5-50 secs at 375 degrees
6-THROW AWAY ALL PAPER AND TRY AGAIN


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## binki (Jul 16, 2006)

$20 is too low and i would not make up for mistakes. the customer should supply extras for misprints. i would be at $50 each for these printed on 2 sides.


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## Riderz Ready (Sep 18, 2008)

binki said:


> $20 is too low and i would not make up for mistakes. the customer should supply extras for misprints. i would be at $50 each for these printed on 2 sides.


You could be at $50 each all day long with only one problem - no one would use your services. You would even have more time on your hands to post on things you are clueless about.

Explain why one would pay you to print double sided on shirts they supply for $50 when you can get a full custum cut and sew shirt for $30-40 at qty 60 or have someone screen print them for $10-12 dollars each?


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## Riderz Ready (Sep 18, 2008)

Denyevil said:


> Yeah I'm with you. Even with experience I have learned that it is tough to avoid all issues when sublimating. These are Nike uniforms which makes the job even more scary! Here is my methodology so let me know what you think:
> 1-tack butcher paper on the platen
> 2-slide the uniform over the platen (like when screen printing)
> 3-spray light tack on uniform to keep art from ghosting
> ...


The issue is who knows, without testing, how the shirts will press. All poly does not print the same. That is why is is dangerous to print on garments a customer supplies. Personally I would use heat at 385-390 for 50 secs and spray the tacky on the sheet on your printed paper not the garment.


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## Denyevil (Oct 1, 2008)

Riderz Ready said:


> You could be at $50 each all day long with only one problem - no one would use your services. You would even have more time on your hands to post on things you are clueless about.
> 
> Explain why one would pay you to print double sided on shirts they supply for $50 when you can get a full custum cut and sew shirt for $30-40 at qty 60 or have someone screen print them for $10-12 dollars each?


I have switched to lightly spraying the garment print area because if the mist ever doesn't come out clean and you get a droplet on an ink spot on the transfer paper it can leave a discolored spot. I use artainium ink and tex print paper i think its called.


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## Riderz Ready (Sep 18, 2008)

Denyevil said:


> I have switched to lightly spraying the garment print area because if the mist ever doesn't come out clean and you get a droplet on an ink spot on the transfer paper it can leave a discolored spot. I use artainium ink and tex print paper i think its called.


Have you tried Elmers Repostioning Spray? It is at places like Walmart for $4-5 and worked well for us before we moved to tacky paper.

You do make a great point though as I recall the ProSpray stuff that cost a small fortune would really be bad about the uneven spray after the first half was gone. Great tip for others!


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## Denyevil (Oct 1, 2008)

Riderz Ready said:


> Have you tried Elmers Repostioning Spray? It is at places like Walmart for $4-5 and worked well for us before we moved to tacky paper.
> 
> You do make a great point though as I recall the ProSpray stuff that cost a small fortune would really be bad about the uneven spray after the first half was gone. Great tip for others!


How's the tacky paper working? The great thing about text print is I can run multiple sheets over one another without unloading each print one at a time. The ink dries fast. With the paper i used to use (95% i forgot the brand) if one sheet crossed another it would leave ink on the corner of the paper you couldn't even see and wreck the garment when printed.

Can you let sheets overlap with tacky print? Also, can you use it for hard goods too?


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## noblehaus (Feb 21, 2011)

charge $5 per side ... and make sure they give your extra shirts for mistakes... they will happen no matter how good you are


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## Denyevil (Oct 1, 2008)

noblehaus said:


> charge $5 per side ... and make sure they give your extra shirts for mistakes... they will happen no matter how good you are


That seems cheap considering the amount of time it takes to allign all of the logos and numbers and print the job. Besides that, no screen printer would accept this job based on the amount of colors, thin outlinelines, and custom numbers. You have to figure ur cost as a buck per sheet for paper and ink to be safe.


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## Riderz Ready (Sep 18, 2008)

Here is the trick behind all of this sports uniform market. If you are dealing with sports like soccer/basketball where the design is simple, if there even is a design, and a number on the back you are competing against vinyl crushers and screen printers. They are the bottom rung of apparel and will do it for next to nothing. With dye sub you have to sell the design not the shirt. If a team is looking for a basic name/number it will be next to impossible to compete with vinyl crushers and screen printers.

I do not think tacky paper is available to the desktop market yet. Not sure why but guessing there is something causing an issue with paper feeding once it is treated.

We use tacky for apparel only - not hard goods.


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## royster13 (Aug 14, 2007)

I just talked with a friend that sell soccer stuff.....He is getting 125.00 to 175.00 each for full sets of soccer jerseys with all over sublimation......


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## Riderz Ready (Sep 18, 2008)

royster13 said:


> I just talked with a friend that sell soccer stuff.....He is getting 125.00 to 175.00 each for full sets of soccer jerseys with all over sublimation......


Can you provide a link to his web site? There may be 1 in 1000 teams that have a full dye uniform. Soccer is just not there (yet). It would be a real stretch to get $125 for a jersey and shorts and virtually unheard of to get $175.00 unless they have some incredible artwork. Would love to see it - post us a link.


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## royster13 (Aug 14, 2007)

In Canada soccer is well developed in larger cities so there is quite a market.....He does not have a website.....He has been selling soccer gear for over 25 years and has lots of contacts with the various men's league teams.........As far as I know, there are a couple wholesale suppliers in Canada that have a good selection of stock art to go along with custom logos, numbers, sponsors, etc....


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## binki (Jul 16, 2006)

Riderz Ready said:


> You could be at $50 each all day long with only one problem - no one would use your services. You would even have more time on your hands to post on things you are clueless about.
> 
> Explain why one would pay you to print double sided on shirts they supply for $50 when you can get a full custum cut and sew shirt for $30-40 at qty 60 or have someone screen print them for $10-12 dollars each?


our full custom dyesub jerseys are $85. $50 is for setting up a print job on unknown garments.


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## binki (Jul 16, 2006)

dyesub sports uniforms are top of the line and deserve a pricepoint there. why charge less for them than any other? we are at over $60 for tackle twill 2 color (team front, name/number back) and over $40 for vinyl 2 color (team front, name/number back) (both options garments we supply where the garment retail is $18-35). If we only charge $20 for dyesub which effectively offers 4 color process printing with unlimited graphic options we have no where to go for other less desireable (perception of customer) options. 

our least expenisive option is $9 for a one color, one location vinyl name/number or front team/back number combination. offering dyesub at only 20 leaves no room for twill of multi color options in other formats. 

i think you are selling yourselves short if you are doing this for 20 bux.


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## Riderz Ready (Sep 18, 2008)

binki said:


> dyesub sports uniforms are top of the line and deserve a pricepoint there. why charge less for them than any other? we are at over $60 for tackle twill 2 color (team front, name/number back) and over $40 for vinyl 2 color (team front, name/number back) (both options garments we supply where the garment retail is $18-35). If we only charge $20 for dyesub which effectively offers 4 color process printing with unlimited graphic options we have no where to go for other less desireable (perception of customer) options.
> 
> our least expenisive option is $9 for a one color, one location vinyl name/number or front team/back number combination. offering dyesub at only 20 leaves no room for twill of multi color options in other formats.
> 
> i think you are selling yourselves short if you are doing this for 20 bux.


Not sure why it is so hard for some to understand this situation. The person who originally made the post is NOT selling a sports jersey. He is simply providing printing services. 

For those interested in sports jerseys understand there are critical price points for each sport. You can take the same jersey and it will be priced completley different depending on what sport one is targeting. Soccer/Basketball is at the bottom of the price charts simply becuase very few are doing any kind of design work that requires dye sub. They are typically a simple logo on the front and a number on the back. This means you are now competing with screen printers and vinyl crushers. Soccer and basketabll are where softball was 4 years ago. This is why we have always preached selling a design not a shirt. If you think there is a market to sell quantity 60 premade shirts to the general soccer market for $85-$100 you are wrong. 

The pricing for vinyl (two color, front/back for $40 quantity 60) is the reason dye sub has exploded in the sports market. Vinyl crushers/twill used to dominate the softball market but over the past three years the market has shifted dramatically to full custom dye sub. Why? Simple $$$$. You can contact ANY softball jersey provider and get full dye sub cut and sew jersey (qty 60) for well under $40. What is a team going to buy? Some cheap vinyl transfer for $40 or a full blown custom jersey for $40? The more you sell vinyl at $40+ a jersey the more business it generates for us in the dye sub market. Vinyl in the sports jersey market is on its last leg excluding the ultra low end due to the pricing provided above.

With that said if one can take 60 premade shirts provided to them and stick a logo on the front and number on the back and charge $3,000 my hat is off to them.


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## maskman (Apr 2, 2011)

You could be at $50 each all day long with only one problem - no one would use your services. You would even have more time on your hands to post on things you are clueless about.



i believe this was the attack in question


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## JYA (Jun 2, 2008)

Denyevil said:


> Im sublimating soccer uniforms for a client that provided me the jerseys. I created a cool design with front/back numers with special effects. What is the standard for pricing such a job.
> There are 60 uniforms so most of the time is spent designing and printing. I was thinking $20 a uniform? What do you think? Too cheap?


I think there are a few questions you need to answer for yourself to figure out how much YOUR COST is. 

What would I be doing? Well, I won't print any pre-sewn shirt as I, like RiderzReady, believe in cut+sublimate+sew garments. We charge $90 for custom sublimated hockey jerseys and like Mark says, it is the design and my artist that I am selling to the clients. This is what makes sublimation so much different than screen printing, vinyl, or embroidery. There are things that you cannot do outside of sublimation and we charge for that!

Anyhow, IF we took on this job, this is how I would break it down:

1. How long did it take you to create the graphics for your client? I'm not sure what RIP program you have, but, keep in mind that you've created numbers for 60 jerseys, so in reality, you have 60 DIFFERENT graphics. If you only spent 3 minutes on each design, you have 3 hours of artwork alone. 

For me, $65/hour for artwork x 3 hours = $195 ($3.25/jersey)


2. What is my cost per printed transfer, AND, HOW MUCH TIME does it take for those transfers to print? Although my Wasatch RIP does have a cost estimator, I still have a "base" cost for not only what the transfer cost is, but, my printer is also an employee of sorts. I need to pay for the printer as well. 

So, for argument sake, let's say that the printed cost is 31 cents per square foot and you are printing 6 sq ft per side of the shirt for a total of 12 square feet, giving you a printed transfer cost of $3.72/jersey.


3. On top of that, 720 sq ft of transfer printing is going to take approximately 90 minutes on a high speed wide format machine (again, for argument sake; don't hold me to this), so, if my labor cost is $20/hr (hourly wage + payroll tax + insurance + workers comp), I have $30 of cost there which equates to $0.50/jersey.


4. Finally, we have the actual transferring costs. Not sure what others would do, however, we would figure in a few different things in the time needed to do the garment:

a. foam on inside of each garment (30 seconds)
b. pre-shrinking of the garment (30 seconds)
c. transferring (60 seconds)
d. removal of printed shirt and foam + placement of new shirt (30 seconds)
e. additional 30 seconds of extra time since you are quoting this blindly and don't know exactly how perfect things are going to go

3 minutes total per garment (I used round numbers for argument sake).

We have a 30x40 press, so, we're only running one shirt at a time. At 3 minutes a shirt, if EVERYTHING runs smoothly and nearly perfect, we're looking at completing 20 shirts per hour. 

I'm not ashamed to say that we charge $75 per hour to run our press, so, 3 hours would be $225 total, or $3.75 per shirt.


5. Shirt packaging takes time. There's a cost for the bag itself, unless of course you just throw the shirts into a box (I don't do this with my business but have seen it). We package our product so that it is presentable, in its own bag, with the jersey number and size on a sticker that goes on the bag.

Fold + placement in the bag + sticker on the bag we figure one minute per shirt, at 60 shirts, would take you another hour at our previously stated $20 per hour labor rate (again, argument sake numbers).

BAG COST + PRINTED STICKER = $0.10 each x 60 = $6.00
LABOR = $20.00 


So, cost wise, we have:

ARTWORK = $3.25
TOTAL PRINTED TRANSFER COST = $3.72 + $0.50 = $4.22
TRANSFERRING = $3.75
BAG PACKAGING = $0.44

*TOTAL COST = $11.66*

Everyone marks up differently, and many don't understand the difference between profit margin and profit markup. Regardless of that, say on a 50% gross profit margin, *we would charge the client $23.32 per jersey* to do the entire print job, start to finish.

Hope this helps you out.


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## Rodney (Nov 3, 2004)

*Please note:* some off topic posts have been moved out of this thread. Name calling and rude snarky comments really aren't necessary in a professional forum. You can share your experience on a topic without makin attacks on someone else's post.​


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## JYA (Jun 2, 2008)

JYA said:


> I think there are a few questions you need to answer for yourself to figure out how much YOUR COST is.
> 
> What would I be doing? Well, I won't print any pre-sewn shirt as I, like RiderzReady, believe in cut+sublimate+sew garments. We charge $90 for custom sublimated hockey jerseys and like Mark says, it is the design and my artist that I am selling to the clients. This is what makes sublimation so much different than screen printing, vinyl, or embroidery. There are things that you cannot do outside of sublimation and we charge for that!
> 
> ...


To further the conversation here, for a cut+sublimation+sew garment, we offer options in price from $38-42USD.

So, skdave's earlier quote of $36, which I will assume is his cut+sublimation+sew sell price, shows how a client can get more for their buck by going this route vs. pre-sewn.

IMHO, I think sublimating pre-sewn shirts is a HARDER and less profitable job than going the cut+sublimation+sew route.


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## Riderz Ready (Sep 18, 2008)

JYA said:


> IMHO, I think sublimating pre-sewn shirts is a HARDER and less profitable job than going the cut+sublimation+sew route.


100% dead on - especially when considering double sided printing which doubles the errors, set up, etc. When I read post on all the teflon, paper inbetween the shirt, paper on top of the shirt, press lines, colors changing on the shirt after being pressed, etc used to print a simple t-shirt I wonder how can it be profitable. This again is why sports like softball have turned to full dye sub jerseys as the cost to print premade shirts is pricey. We will not even do two sided premade shirts any longer as we can do them cut and sew for the same cost.


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## binki (Jul 16, 2006)

Denyevil said:


> Im sublimating soccer uniforms for a client that provided me the jerseys. I created a cool design with front/back numers with special effects. What is the standard for pricing such a job.
> There are 60 uniforms so most of the time is spent designing and printing. I was thinking $20 a uniform? What do you think? Too cheap?


Since the OP mentions Sports Jerseys, custom design, dyesub, front and back with custom designs and special effects I will stick with my price of $50/ea on a customer supplied jersey and highly recommend that I supply the kit at $85 each. I would offer a 15% discount if I get the custom shorts in the deal as well so $160 less 15% for the deal at 60 uniforms so $136 plus tax out the door per uniform.

These are premium products and we sell them as such.


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## Riderz Ready (Sep 18, 2008)

binki said:


> Since the OP mentions Sports Jerseys, custom design, dyesub, front and back with custom designs and special effects I will stick with my price of $50/ea on a customer supplied jersey and highly recommend that I supply the kit at $85 each. I would offer a 15% discount if I get the custom shorts in the deal as well so $160 less 15% for the deal at 60 uniforms so $136 plus tax out the door per uniform.
> 
> These are premium products and we sell them as such.


Would love to see examples of your work - website link? Here is a short sleeve jersey we recently did. Total custom jersey front and back including name/number - QTY 60 pricing $40. Rest assured there are more people that would charge less in cut and sew then would charge more for QTY 60. Would love to see how your $50 jersey compares.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

While the debate on reasons to only do cut and sew is interesting, and valid, and perhaps it is a good possibility for the original poster to investigate further in the future, it's really a moot point for the issue _du jour_. 

The original poster has an order pending _now_ and asked for pricing help _now_. Doesn't appear likely that someone is just going to run out and be able to get the necessary equipment and learn new skills for a cut and sew operation in time to fufill his customers order.

A few people have actually attempted to help this individual. Or we can all just toot our own horns if we like.


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## Riderz Ready (Sep 18, 2008)

mgparrish said:


> While the debate on reasons to only do cut and sew is interesting, and valid, and perhaps it is a good possibility for the original poster to investigate further in the future, it's really a moot point for the issue _du jour_.
> 
> The original poster has an order pending _now_ and asked for pricing help _now_. Doesn't appear likely that someone is just going to run out and be able to get the necessary equipment and learn new skills for a cut and sew operation in time to fufill his customers order.
> 
> A few people have actually attempted to help this individual. Or we can all just toot our own horns if we like.


So you consider someone with no real experience telling a new person that they can charge $50 for print services as helpful? 

Is your above post helpful to the topic? How does it address the issue of pricing? You are simply trolling cause you have a horrible habit of commenting on topics totally unrealted to what you claim to do. 

When a new person seeks advice we all share a responsibility to inform them as best we can. For someone to tell a new person they can charge $50 for print services is totally out side industry standards. Instead of just blowing smoke like some tend to do we actually provide REAL WORLD examples of industry standard pricing and the associated work. I can not count the times people on this forum people claim to do a specific type of work yet they do not even place links to their web site or offer examples of their work and what they charged for such work. Sound familiar?

Let me explain the danger to this gentlemen and how that danger provides us increased business. I posted a pic of a typical short sleeve jersey that we would sell for $40 at qty 60. There are others on this site that would sell that same jersey for $30. Fast forward to game day - Team A walks onto the field with full blown custom jerseys as shown above. Team B walks onto a field with a premade jersey with a logo on the front and a number on the back. 

Team B asks Team A about their jersey and find out they paid $40 for a full custom jersey. Team B then wonders why they paid $75+ for a shirt with a logo and a number printed on it.

Where do you think Team B will buy their next jersey? The gentlemen trying to make a living just lost a client and potential multiple clients by overcharging.

Can you post a link to your site so you can toot your horn?


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## JYA (Jun 2, 2008)

Riderz Ready said:


> Let me explain the danger to this gentlemen and how that danger provides us increased business. I posted a pic of a typical short sleeve jersey that we would sell for $40 at qty 60. There are others on this site that would sell that same jersey for $30. Fast forward to game day - Team A walks onto the field with full blown custom jerseys as shown above. Team B walks onto a field with a premade jersey with a logo on the front and a number on the back.
> 
> Team B asks Team A about their jersey and find out they paid $40 for a full custom jersey. Team B then wonders why they paid $75+ for a shirt with a logo and a number printed on it.
> 
> Where do you think Team B will buy their next jersey? The gentlemen trying to make a living just lost a client and potential multiple clients by overcharging.


Quoted for truth


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

Riderz Ready said:


> So you consider someone with no real experience telling a new person that they can charge $50 for print services as helpful?
> 
> Is your above post helpful to the topic? How does it address the issue of pricing? You are simply trolling cause you have a horrible habit of commenting on topics totally unrealted to what you claim to do.
> 
> ...


As I have stated before I don't cut and sew. I sell photo novelty tshirts and occasionally make some tshirts for small business, schools, clubs etc . I don't do jerseys, although I have an interest and would like to hear from others on this, so I am not "trolling". 

As to my experience you have no idea or anything about me. You always presume things about others that you have no real knowledge about.

I have been sublimating and doing heat transfers for over 20 years now. If you would like to go through the posts over at DSSI or at HTFDP you will see I have a lot of posts over there going back to the beginning of DSSI, I was also in the DSSI forum back way way beack when they were on the old Delphi forums.

I don't do this full time, it's just money on the side. I am home based and occasionally do events. I don't have a website for heat transfer, I don't need it or want it. I don't sell over the internet and don't need to advertise. I have a full time career that does me well, anything I make on the side imprinting is just "gravy" and I enjoy being creative.

I have done heat transfer and sublimation even before the web was available and all my customers I have had for years even some going back longer than a decade. And new ones are word of mouth unless I sell to them at an event or a weekend market where I have setup from time to time. I have plenty of work so I don't need to advertise. If I had leased a storefront or shop space I would have a website and yellow page ad as well.

It should be clear and obvious to everyone that you believe the $50 price per shirt is excessive, and your case has been stated, and stated, and stated.

How about we quit beating this dead horse?


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

dazzabling said:


> Remember, you can't buy experience!!!


That is true, there is a learning curve involved, which takes time to acquire. But for someone that has an opportunity _now_ to make an order for their customer there is no time to get that experience, so the original poster has to work with what skills he has, and the equipment he has.

So working within what he has at this moment what should he price this job at?

If I were a customer for this kind of an order I would prefer to buy my product locally and see the person I hand $500 or $600 to face to face. There could be savings having those shipped across the country from price shopping on the internet, and I am sure there are those customers that do this.

Pricing is more complex than just what some other guy across the country sells his stuff for. In Phoenix shop overhead and labor costs much lower than in CA, or in the NE. 

It should be more difficult for someone with just about any kind of shop with overhead that fabricates items in NYC to compete over the internet with a guy in Phoenix, so local market conditions and local prices have to be a factor.

I don't assume eveyone is buying these kinds of items over the internet based on price alone. 

If someone in "Podunk Iowa" can sell a finished jersey for $40 it doesn't mean that the person with a shop or store in "Upscale Rhode Island" should be selling at the same price.

It could also be that in some localities there is no one doing cut and sew to have as a choice or price comparison, and I can foresee some customers not wanting to take a chance on buying these items on the internet.

Not saying what I think prices are or should be, refering to the other poster that detailed out all the time and steps involved looks like a good guide to me, just have to know your local prices for the goods, labor and shop overhead. Commodity prices for raw material may differ, but his costs show a good starting point.


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## jemmyell (Jan 26, 2010)

Instead of continually stating the obvious, that a shop with small format dyesub equipment can't really compete with a cut-and-sew shop all of us that ONLY have small format equipment should be trying to learn how Binki gets that $50 and higher price. I agree that the customers MAY switch to a cut-and-sew shop in the future but are you seriously suggesting that Binki should refer his premium job customer to a cut-and-sew shop so they can get a better price and a better product?

That is not how it works and you know it.

-James


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## Riderz Ready (Sep 18, 2008)

jemmyell said:


> Instead of continually stating the obvious, that a shop with small format dyesub equipment can't really compete with a cut-and-sew shop all of us that ONLY have small format equipment should be trying to learn how Binki gets that $50 and higher price. I agree that the customers MAY switch to a cut-and-sew shop in the future but are you seriously suggesting that Binki should refer his premium job customer to a cut-and-sew shop so they can get a better price and a better product?
> 
> That is not how it works and you know it.
> 
> -James


You do not get it James. Small shops can compete with cut and sew shops as long as they are priced according to the market they are targeting. There is room for screen printers, vinyl crushers and dye subers, DTG, etc. What you can successful charge as a business depends on your market, product and you as a business. Someone working from home part time has different costs than a business. 

This is not cut and sew big boys versus small format. Where you may not be able to compete against us for teams that want full custom jerseys we could not compete against you on teams that want a simple logo and a number. You decide you want to charge full custom dye sub jersey pricing for basic printing services you just handed me a new customer.

The issue is simple - what is the price point you need to be at to compete in this market? I know that my price point does not work for a simple jersey just as you should know it is virtually impossible to charge $50 for printing. If someone wants a simple basketball or soccer jersey will we do it? No, we will refer it to somone who can service the customer at the market price.

Let me say we came from small format. I know many of the issues and frustrations of that market. We made every mistake known to mankind. I quit on dye sublimation and outsourced everythng until I could justify large format cut and sew. 

You ask, "are you seriously suggesting that Binki should refer his premium job customer to a cut-and-sew shop so they can get a better price and a better product?"

The answer is yes he should and we would pay for the referral. The issue we all have at beginning, myself included, is we want to do everything. We never want to turn business away. In time you learn if you do what you do best and refer out projects that may not suit your expertise your business will flourish and you will receive back in turn referals from other people. This is how successful businesses work.


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## jemmyell (Jan 26, 2010)

Mark,

You are the one that does not get it. Binki is reporting that he IS GETTING a price that you say he cannot. I personally believe him.

I don't think it is at all reasonable that you want him to give you his customer.

Binki is winning the game I want to kinow about. MARKETING. Microsoft, SawGrass and many other companies have proved that you can sell a less capable product at an inflated price. He is getting a price I want on a product I can make. You have very clearly stated your feelings. You should let other people participate in the dyesub forum instead of continually trying to show everybody how superior you are. JMHO.

Let Binki share what he wants to share and stop being a bully.

-James


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

Riderz Ready said:


> You ask, "are you seriously suggesting that Binki should refer his premium job customer to a cut-and-sew shop so they can get a better price and a better product?"
> 
> The answer is yes he should and we would pay for the referral. The issue we all have at beginning, myself included, is we want to do everything. We never want to turn business away. In time you learn if you do what you do best and refer out projects that may not suit your expertise your business will flourish and you will receive back in turn referals from other people. This is how successful businesses work.


So what does his customer do with jerseys they (the customer) supplied?

Should he now tell the customer to go see you for cut and sew (he get's the referral money) but the customers jerseys are now either a waste or maybe suggest that customer try and return them for a refund?

This issue of his customer's supplied jerseys still exists.


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## royster13 (Aug 14, 2007)

Many years ago I made a decision to not decorate supplied garments...And sometimes I feel bad showing a client what I could have given them at a certain price point versus what they will get when doing it their way....But some times you just need to "educate" them....


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## Riderz Ready (Sep 18, 2008)

jemmyell said:


> Mark,
> 
> You are the one that does not get it. Binki is reporting that he IS GETTING a price that you say he cannot. I personally believe him.
> 
> ...


Sorry James although I am not from MO I believe in action not words. You seriously believe you can get $50 for printing on someones shirt - please go after it and we thank you for the customers. Binki can share and in fact I encouraged him to back up his claims with actual products and pricing. You see it yet?


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## Riderz Ready (Sep 18, 2008)

royster13 said:


> Many years ago I made a decision to not decorate supplied garments...And sometimes I feel bad showing a client what I could have given them at a certain price point versus what they will get when doing it their way....But some times you just need to "educate" them....


You are dead on - garments do not all print the same. To me bringing shirts to a printer is like bringing auto parts to a mechanic. They would not typically touch them.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

Riderz Ready said:


> You are dead on - garments do not all print the same. To me bringing shirts to a printer is like bringing auto parts to a mechanic. They would not typically touch them.


I don't do customer supplied garments either.

However, the issue at hand is that a business opportuntiy exists for the OP _now_. So either he tells his customer to go elsewhere or he takes the job. 

_He has stated he already made artwork for the job. So I don't see him letting the job "walk"._

Outsourcing or referral outside does not appear to be viable _now_. 

In this case "elsewhere" means that the customer would more than likely find another imprinter willing to the job with the supplied garments.

What you suggest _in general_ makes sense .... but in the "real world" (as you say) he has

1. A customer that has brought him shirts
2. Already made the artwork for those shirts

Anything outside of this is just Monday morning quarterbacking.


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## Riderz Ready (Sep 18, 2008)

mgparrish said:


> So what does his customer do with jerseys they (the customer) supplied?
> 
> Should he now tell the customer to go see you for cut and sew (he get's the referral money) but the customers jerseys are now either a waste or maybe suggest that customer try and return them for a refund?
> 
> This issue of his customer's supplied jerseys still exists.


You are having comprehension issues in reading post. I was asked if someone like Binki should refer a project that involves full dye sub. I simply stated yes he should.

If you read the post you would see that I commented that $20 would be a geat price.

If people want to "drink the kool aide" that others are offering have at it.


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## Rodney (Nov 3, 2004)

Riderz Ready said:


> Can you post a link to your site so you can toot your horn?


Nobody is in this thread to toot their own horn nor do they have to provide anyone with examples of their work (since we don't allow self promotion). 

We are all trying to share our knowledge and experience. You can share your experience and others can share their experience. Neither one has to invalidate the other for both to be true.

No need to attack others for having a different experience than yours. The hostility and aggression here is unwarranted. 

Let's take a step back folks from the emotions flaring up in this thread and remember that we are all here for the common goal of helping others to the best of our ability  Not to take shots about others experience or portfolio.


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## JYA (Jun 2, 2008)

royster13 said:


> Many years ago I made a decision to not decorate supplied garments...And sometimes I feel bad showing a client what I could have given them at a certain price point versus what they will get when doing it their way....But some times you just need to "educate" them....


Royce, I agree; education is key, but, some clients (OK, MOST clients) think they know more about my business than I do and they want me to do things their way. Fortunately, it is my business and I do things here my way, and I would politely turn down the order. Sure, we're never in a position to turn away business, but, we're also not in a position to make a product that we don't believe in.

This thread is a PERFECT example of taking a job and NOT knowing what in the world you're doing! How do you take a job and say "I'll get back to you on price"? What if they say no? Do you eat the artwork you've created? You've already got some cost into that! Does your client love you so much that they'll go ahead and accept any price you give them?

I agree with Rodney that this board is for educating and sharing ideas, but holy f**k, take a second to sit back, everyone put their egos aside, and think of the ridiculousness of the question that started this thread! Flame me if you want, but, this job that you've taken is EXACTLY what creates a bad name for EVERYONE in this business! 

I WILL NOT do direct sublimation onto any pre-sewn garment; PERIOD! If I won't do that job for myself, I won't do it for others. Personally, and just my opinion, it is far more work than a cut+sublimate+sew garment and it looks ****ty,

Because I manufacture a product (SubliTWILL) and sew it onto a hockey jersey for example, this is the only time that I will utilize a client's pre-sewn garment, and believe me, I charge them for bringing me their garment. 

Royce, you should NEVER feel bad about anything. At the end of the day, any product you put out there has YOUR NAME ON IT and reflects DIRECTLY on YOUR business!


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## Riderz Ready (Sep 18, 2008)

Marcelo - hope all is well in hockeyland. We are just now testing single side design ladies premade shirts using the team logo and adding rhinestones to bling it out. We have never had a great solution for the ladies/girls that we could generate a decent profit. It amazes me how the value of a ladies shirt jumps when a few rhinestones are added. 

For those really wanting to know from the experts the going rate for printing services on a t-shirt call Vapor Apparel and talk to Jackson. They do thousands of shirts a month.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

JYA said:


> To further the conversation here, for a cut+sublimation+sew garment, we offer options in price from $38-42USD.
> 
> So, skdave's earlier quote of $36, which I will assume is his cut+sublimation+sew sell price, shows how a client can get more for their buck by going this route vs. pre-sewn.
> 
> IMHO, I think sublimating pre-sewn shirts is a HARDER and less profitable job than going the cut+sublimation+sew route.


What qnty are you requiring for the $38 - $42 price range? I had a few requests not so long ago actually from bar owners and another small restaurant owner that actually wanted sports jerseys (with full color logos and name drops) for their business. I turned that business down, but at what qnty. does it become more economical to do cut and sew? What would you charge for a dozen pcs cut and sew?

I have done some sport tees over the years and some of those teams are just 10 -15 members, I suspect many of those that have to have jerseys just settle for vinyl, or some kind of sewing on the premade garment?


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

Denyevil said:


> Im sublimating soccer uniforms for a client that provided me the jerseys. I created a cool design with front/back numers with special effects. What is the standard for pricing such a job.
> There are 60 uniforms so most of the time is spent designing and printing. I was thinking $20 a uniform? What do you think? Too cheap?


What type of Jersey's did your customer provide, or where they really sport tshirts. Anything like this?


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## JYA (Jun 2, 2008)

mgparrish said:


> What qnty are you requiring for the $38 - $42 price range? I had a few requests not so long ago actually from bar owners and another small restaurant owner that actually wanted sports jerseys (with full color logos and name drops) for their business. I turned that business down, but at what qnty. does it become more economical to do cut and sew? What would you charge for a dozen pcs cut and sew?
> 
> I have done some sport tees over the years and some of those teams are just 10 -15 members, I suspect many of those that have to have jerseys just settle for vinyl, or some kind of sewing on the premade garment?


To receive those prices, we require a 10 jersey minimum, with re-orders at only 1 jersey. We run the re-orders while doing other clients stuff... 

We will do one jersey, but, we will charge much more for it. usually this is where clients want a sample to show the team, so, I'll do something where the difference between the team price and the single sample price will be applied if an order is placed within 14 days.


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## JYA (Jun 2, 2008)

Riderz Ready said:


> Marcelo - hope all is well in hockeyland. We are just now testing single side design ladies premade shirts using the team logo and adding rhinestones to bling it out. We have never had a great solution for the ladies/girls that we could generate a decent profit. It amazes me how the value of a ladies shirt jumps when a few rhinestones are added.


Everything is great and look forward to speaking to you soon. I might come out soon.

Not shocked about the rhinestones. I've heard some scary stories price wise on that stuff! I look forward to seeing some photos!


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

JYA said:


> To receive those prices, we require a 10 jersey minimum, with re-orders at only 1 jersey. We run the re-orders while doing other clients stuff...
> 
> We will do one jersey, but, we will charge much more for it. usually this is where clients want a sample to show the team, so, I'll do something where the difference between the team price and the single sample price will be applied if an order is placed within 14 days.


Thx. 

Are your art charges "wrapped" into the those prices and are those for both sides? While it's less trouble for you to do both sides since you are sewing, is that still an upcharge on each shirt?

I do vapor basic sub tshirts, while I agree that if you just printed the raw material first, as you do, and it would be easier than stuffing inside the shirt with a pad and teflon then printing, it's not that difficult to sublimate a pre-made garment. I "dress" the press and have the "pillow" thing down pretty good.

The real gating item for premade sublimation garments are the base color. White garments are doable with transfers, as are light colors with dark color text/graphics. I don't like the color blending problem so printed color other than black on light color sub shirts I avoid if it becomes complicated colorwise.

But I'm not convinced that someone not cutting and sewing but only sublimating to premade sport jerseys can't make money and provide a quality product. 

No argument here that a "full bleed" jersey may look better than a premade sublimated garment, but I can say the same thing about a basic sublimation shirt as well. I don't see everyone needing a full bleed design.

So I think someone wanting to start out "basic" and see how this develops with simpler equipment, then consider real production equipment later, is viable. As long as they understand the limitation of their product and process. I don't like the look of vinyl but some attractive sew on stuff I have seen looks nice.

I just can't imagine for someone to run out and buy a 42 inch printer, industrial sewing machine(s), a jumbo heat press etc and expect "the business will come". So everyone starts somewhere.

Many of us sublimating tshirts make money at it or we leave the business. We also have other products we offer and anything that can make us money is viable. It's not to say we can do it as efficient as you do, but many of us don't have the overhead costs and $$$ capital equipment costs either. 

As long as one stays within the limits of your skill and process capabilty, do what you can and don't do what you can't. As long as you can give your customer a quality product it doesn't have to be "full bleed" unless that is what they want.

I haven't investigated the sub twill you sew onto a premade garment that you mentioned, but I would assume you don't need the 42 inch printer or a jumbo press? 

Also, with the other sew on stuff that isn't sublimated and looks nice, between that and what is viable for sublimating onto premade garments, that looks like a decent place to start.

No way I am sending any business away for some small referral fee for anything, unless I can't make it myself and make the profit I need. And I don't believe the entire market is sew and cut, I see a lot of jersey stuff out there that looks nice that isn't "full bleed".

I have always had laser sublimation for inexpensive garment printing, and now I have cheap sub inks.

I don't ever allow customers to give me garments, I price according to costs plus the margin I require. I also know the price ranges the items I make can reasonably go for. If the customer isn't willing to pay what I charge they can walk.

Everyone kept telling how I couldn't compete with Walmart making tshirts, mugs, and mousepads, but I keep pressing on.

I think there is room for both small players and big players in this market, it won't cost me much money or my reputation if it doesn't pan out.

Thanks for your input.


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## Riderz Ready (Sep 18, 2008)

JYA said:


> Everything is great and look forward to speaking to you soon. I might come out soon.
> 
> Not shocked about the rhinestones. I've heard some scary stories price wise on that stuff! I look forward to seeing some photos!


It is amazing - the lessoned learned is if you are going to make apparel - target women. 

Stay in touch!


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## JYA (Jun 2, 2008)

Wow Mike! I was going to respond, but, wouldn't know where to start.

Seems like you have all of the answers with regards to YOUR business, and that's good. I wish you well.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

JYA said:


> Wow Mike! I was going to respond, but, wouldn't know where to start.
> 
> Seems like you have all of the answers with regards to YOUR business, and that's good. I wish you well.


thx, sounds like you have a good handle on your side as well.


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## mn shutterbug (Mar 19, 2009)

JYA said:


> I think there are a few questions you need to answer for yourself to figure out how much YOUR COST is.
> 
> What would I be doing? Well, I won't print any pre-sewn shirt as I, like RiderzReady, believe in cut+sublimate+sew garments. We charge $90 for custom sublimated hockey jerseys and like Mark says, it is the design and my artist that I am selling to the clients. This is what makes sublimation so much different than screen printing, vinyl, or embroidery. There are things that you cannot do outside of sublimation and we charge for that!
> 
> ...


I don't print t-shirts, just a mug guy, but if I was getting $65 per hour for designing art work, I wouldn't dream of adding that into the 100% markup. I'll work anytime for $65 per hour. I guess if it were me, I'd just mark up the cost of the materials and consider that 50% margin plus my hourly rate my income.


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## Imageit (Dec 22, 2011)

I worked for a company in upstate in the mid 90's and we were a beta site for Sawgrass when they were developing the particle size of their inks I have been sublimating ever since so I have a little experience with pressing T's. I do not use any pro spray, heat conductive tape or adhesive on shirts as long as your press in anchored well and you don't jerk the handle upon completion if it's a clamp shell or manual you will not move the transfer at all. You can practice to devise your own technique to pull the cover sheet and transfer paper off without ever experiencing shadowing.
As far as ink and paper cost it is safe to use $1.50 per 8.5 x 11" - 80% ink coverage for a guide to pricing out your consumable costs. This applies to wide format as well as desktop printers even if you are using a bulk ink system.
I would charge $25 -$50 for your art fees if it took you an hour or less to build the files and $8.00 per shirt for the front and backside print. That is a 500% profit if you aren't considering your own time and basing it off your consumable charges as after all if you didn't get the job you wouldn't make any profit and can't charge your tv's remote when you don't have any work!


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## freebird1963 (Jan 21, 2007)

Riderz Ready said:


> Can you provide a link to his web site? There may be 1 in 1000 teams that have a full dye uniform. Soccer is just not there (yet). It would be a real stretch to get $125 for a jersey and shorts and virtually unheard of to get $175.00 unless they have some incredible artwork. Would love to see it - post us a link.


Maybe not in your area.? Here they play year round and there are dozens of adult travel teams, kid traveling teams etc. Just like softball some are plain jane cotton shirts and some are BMX walking billboards. Some are just as cool and neat as any other sport and some are just tshirts with a number. Runs the gamut. Would imagine its dependent on the leauge budget and for the travel teams what they want and what they have to spend. I doubt it has to do with the sport in general. Softball only in the last few years has grown into the dye sub market. I recall seeing more soccer dye sub shirts back a few years ago than softball tho back then I didn't know about the process of the shirts. Just knew they were different than our cotton softball shirts. 

Tho why anyone places soccer I have no idea


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## Riderz Ready (Sep 18, 2008)

freebird1963 said:


> Maybe not in your area.? Here they play year round and there are dozens of adult travel teams, kid traveling teams etc. Just like softball some are plain jane cotton shirts and some are BMX walking billboards. Some are just as cool and neat as any other sport and some are just tshirts with a number. Runs the gamut. Would imagine its dependent on the leauge budget and for the travel teams what they want and what they have to spend. I doubt it has to do with the sport in general. Softball only in the last few years has grown into the dye sub market. I recall seeing more soccer dye sub shirts back a few years ago than softball tho back then I didn't know about the process of the shirts. Just knew they were different than our cotton softball shirts.
> 
> Tho why anyone places soccer I have no idea


We research multiple sport each year to determine areas that would be profitable to expand. The vast majority of soccer leagues control the uniform, not the team. Traveling teams of any sport, including soccer, are approx 3% of the sports participants. A very narrow market. Something that is not profitable in cut and sew.

The number one reason we have been told that leagues control the jerseys are to keep the cost down of recreational soccer and to insure no two teams jerseys are similar in color. Imagine two teams come to play both with red designed jerseys. It would be a nightmare for players and officials alike. Even the pro jerseys (excluding golaie) are very basic.

With cut and sew you have to have a national market that targets the vast majority of the participants to make a living. If you are doing it part time then sure you can mess around in small niche markets. 

The best sports for cut and sew are sports where the team/participants control the uniform not the league.


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## marbleman (Jun 26, 2012)

You will get $125to $175. Only once. The consumer will be looking some where else next time.


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## pianopop6 (Sep 2, 2011)

hi guys - does anyone have availability to do 15 custom cut and sew blank hockey jerseys for me? My usual vendors are backup up several months and I need something a little quicker.


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