# Waterbased Underbase - Need Advice



## 2davets (Apr 7, 2008)

Hi!
Have read up loads on underbase, and know that it is not always easy. Most of what I have read applied specifically to plastisol, but I am wanting to print waterbased (not discharge ). 

I managed to get a couple of reasonable red prints on a black T, eventually, with a lot of printing and flashing for each shirt! They red still didn't 'pop' - should it?

Underbase screen 86 and a standard white ink
Colour screen 110 and a red ink
Off contact 1/8 inch.
Black Fruit of the Loom Valueweight shirts

I have a few fairly basic questions that I hope someone can help me with:

*If I put down a white underbase, how 'white' does it need to be before I print my colour (red) on top of it? *
After 1 print and flash, it was barely noticeable - and didn't seem to help when printing the colour. After 2 it was a bit better, after 3 it was starting to look white, and the colour was becoming brighter. Then I needed 2 or 3 print and flash of the colour. 

*Typically, how many white underbase prints and how many colour prints should I expect?*
I feel like I am ending up doing far too many of both - and frying my platen!

*Should I use an Opaque white for the underbase?*
My ink is in unmarked pots but I'm told it is Union. I have a "Standard White" and an "Opaque White". Which should I use for printing a white design on dark, which for underbasing?

*Dave*


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## rudi (Mar 7, 2007)

You need to use an opaque ink.
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbxgvrxysyA[/media]
Permaset's aqua range is very good, have been using them for some yaers now.have a look at the link and about half way thru you'll get to see what there ink looks like on darks (don't pay any attention to the fool doing the interveiw).
Hope this helps


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## 2davets (Apr 7, 2008)

rudi said:


> You need to use an opaque ink.
> [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbxgvrxysyA[/media]
> Permaset's aqua range is very good, and about half way thru you'll get to see what there ink looks like on darks s


Rudi, thanks for that. I will definitely have a look at the Permaset inks - white and colour. Don't suppose you know of a good UK supplier 

As a guide, how white should the underbase layer look BEFORE printing the colour on top? I've been trying to get a solid looking white underbase and that has been taking me quite a few print and flashes. 

Should I be using an Opaque White for the underbase?

Dave


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## rudi (Mar 7, 2007)

sorry mate don't know of any uk suppiers.

print,flash,print and you should have a decent underbase (first down).

You wont get anywere using a standard waterbase white as a first down, you have to use an opaque white or you can print your colours with out useing a first down because the "Aqua range" all have different %'s of opaque in them.

Just remember too colour match to your dark garments if not useing a first down white.

Hope this helps.


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## 2davets (Apr 7, 2008)

rudi said:


> sorry mate don't know of any uk suppiers.
> 
> print,flash,print and you should have a decent underbase (first down).
> 
> ...


Rudi, very helpful thanks! Got some good results yesterday using the Opaque White - it smells a bit (do they all?), and it clogged up in no time, but it did the job. 

I will have a look for a UK supplier for the Permaset - generally UK suppliers are few and far between, and prices are not that competitive. 

I'm not sure what you mean by colour matching to dark garments if not using a first down white. Is it making an allowance for some of the shirt colour influencing lighter colours?

Dave


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## ukscreenprinter (Nov 18, 2007)

Hi Dave try these for uk permaset supplies
Craft Paints and Markers - Permaset Aqua Fabric and Screen Printing Ink 1 Litre Standard - ArtiFolk Art & Craft Supplies


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## 2davets (Apr 7, 2008)

ukscreenprinter said:


> Hi Dave try these for uk permaset supplies
> Craft Paints and Markers - Permaset Aqua Fabric and Screen Printing Ink 1 Litre Standard - ArtiFolk Art & Craft Supplies


Ian, Thanks for that. I have bought from ArtiFolk before, but not screen printing stuff, and I didn't have them in my mind as a possible supplier. Dave


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## 2davets (Apr 7, 2008)

2davets said:


> Rudi, very helpful thanks! Got some good results yesterday using the Opaque White - it smells a bit (do they all?), and it clogged up in no time, but it did the job.


Ooops! I spoke too soon. They looked good - until I washed them. The red variously cracked and fell off the underbase. I'm assume it is down to not curing properly. 

What I did was Opaque White - print flash print flash, then Red - print flash print. Then I left the shirts to air dry for 30 mins or so, and then heatpressed at 185 centigrade for 1 minute. (I don't habe a drier and this has always worked fine for single colours).

Any advice would be welcome.

Dave


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## MotoskinGraphix (Apr 28, 2006)

First stated there was no need for an underbase with the opaque colors and then they go into a first down white etc. Just a bit confused on this one.


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## Dan K (Nov 15, 2006)

Are you still using water base white as the underbase?

Discharge is a water base ink. You should use this as your underbase, flash it to start the reaction, then print your water base colors after that with no flash. It will be extremely hard if it's even possible to get full opacity using a water base white with no discharge in it. When you pull this off the press (before curing) it will not look like much has happened (been printed) but with a proper cure in your conveyor, the water base inks and discharge will properly activate and cure and your colors will pop once they come out of the converyor dryer.

You're doing a lot of printing and flashing that is not necessary with water based inks...


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## 2davets (Apr 7, 2008)

MotoskinGraphix said:


> First stated there was no need for an underbase with the opaque colors and then they go into a first down white etc. Just a bit confused on this one.


David, 
I used the Opaque White as an underbase - I first tried Standard White and couldn't get a very white underbase without putting down a lot of layers.
None of my colours are opaque.
Does this make my problem any clearer 
Dave


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## 2davets (Apr 7, 2008)

Dan K said:


> Are you still using water base white as the underbase?..


Dan, Yes, I am using a waterbased Opaque White as the underbase. 
I'm steering away from discharge at the moment - I'm in a fairly confined area and dont have a conveyor drier.
Dave


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## Dan K (Nov 15, 2006)

Hey Dave!

Don't be afraid of discharge!!! It is really not so bad to use, in fact it will add so much to what you can offer, the results of your water base prints, your quality, and your skills printing. If you're printing with water based inks already, you're in a great position to get into discharge. It's one of the best things that ever happened to our shop.

You will not get a truly opaque print using water based white no matter what the manufacturer names the product, and it is not going to work very well as an underbase if you want truly opaque or accurately color matched prints. I think you will run into the same problems you described in this thread over and over...

Without a conveyor dryer, you may want to reconsider printing with water base all together,unless you're using an art store style water base like Speedball that can air dry. You need a lot of heat and a lot of time in the dryer to make it work well the way it is intended to print...


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## ukscreenprinter (Nov 18, 2007)

I had put off using discharge for a long time but took the plunge, and have to say I wished I did when I first started using waterbased. It is a superb easy effect, and I am totally hooked. It has opened up a whole new range of possibilites within my current range of designs. I also guess I am lucky to have a conveyor dryer to add extra flexibilty.


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## 2davets (Apr 7, 2008)

Dan K said:


> Hey Dave!
> .... Without a conveyor dryer, you may want to reconsider printing with water base all together,unless you're using an art store style water base like Speedball that can air dry. You need a lot of heat and a lot of time in the dryer to make it work well the way it is intended to print...


Dan,
Thanks for the information. I may move onto try the Permaset Aqua Fabric inks - which have had good write ups on here. 
Other than the black shirts, I have printed fine with the waterbased on various light shirts, and no problems with the curing without the conveyor.
Currently I am using ink (Bricoprint SF20) that came with the equipment I bought, about a dozen litre pots. I'm thinking I will give up trying to use it for black shirts, but I would really like to print on black. 
I have also got plastisol ink, so I may use that for black. It's just that the cleaning up is a lot more pleasant with the waterbased, which is important as my work area leads off to our kitchen and living room! 
Dave


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## 2davets (Apr 7, 2008)

ukscreenprinter said:


> ...... I also guess I am lucky to have a conveyor dryer to add extra flexibilty.


Ian, whereabouts in the UK are you - I could call round with some wet shirts Dave (near Bradford in West Yorkshire)


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