# Thinking about making a step into embroidery



## Dbrisson (Mar 23, 2010)

I am looking to expand my business again and embroidery is next up, I've had my heat press since Nov of last year, and the orders have not stopped, but I have certain customers that keep bugging me about embroidery. Is it worth outsourcing to a local shop? I've outsourced hats before and made some pretty good money on it, but I enjoy creating the product and having control over "my end product" I'm not sure how the profits differ from outsourcing to doing in house, but the satisfaction is alot higher when I created the product in house. 

my question is, I doubt I will get orders of 1000's of items in the first little bit if I decide to make the jump. I've been looking at 2 embroidery machines, which I feel are in 2 different classes, but I'm not sure which one would be the better to start with. Amaya XTS, and Brother PR650 or the PR1000. I'm just scared I will outgrow the PR's if this takes off, and I'd rather spend an extra bit of money if it means not upgrading in 6months - a year. 

also I was wondering what the average cost per 1000 stitch is, it seems most garments are priced by 1000 stitches but what is the actual cost of those stiches, then I can calculate what sort of income per hour (assuming I am efficient with the equipment)

sorry for the long story, and yes I over analyze everything

Thanks
Dan


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## inobu (Dec 29, 2010)

Dan,

The best way to maintain quality control is to do it yourself which you have alluded to but a single head unit will not support a larger production run (that is where the money is). 

Find a wholesaler in your area and get a unit like his. What you sew out on your machine will be what he sews out on his. Instead of having a line of machines in the back it will be across town. 

Same software and machine use him when you need him. 

Although the stitch count comes into play, the number of pieces you can produce in a hour is the real factor. 1000 stitches on 5 pieces is $1.00 per 1000, $40 digitizing fee 
$45.00 - Not much there after the test sew out and digitizing.

Inobu


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## RBelleci (Nov 28, 2011)

Dan, we started out very similar to your situation... outsourced our embroidery for a couple of years and built and learned a lot about the business, pricing, etc. by doing so. 

Then for the Quality control reasons you mentioned, we decided to buy a single head machine, and do it ourselves. At times, we found ourselves staying at the shop at all hours of the night trying to finish an order of 48 pieces. The single head just wasn't enough, so we did the small runs and sew outs on our single head, then outsourced the rest locally.

Within 6 months we bought a 6-head machine, because as Inobu stated, we learned that time and production are where the money is at with embroidery, and we started overloading the other shop with work. That being said I do not regret buying the single head first. I highly recommend starting in the same manner.

You will learn so much about how the machine operates, how to maintenance it, troubleshooting designs, digitizing, etc. See if you like it, build the business up, and when you make the jump to a multi-head you will always have a need for the single head.

Today we have two 6-head machines that we do most of our work on, even a job of 3 pieces is more efficient on the 6 head. but when your running a job of 300+ pieces, and you need to knock out a couple small orders, that single head still comes in handy.


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## Topdigitizing (Sep 12, 2012)

So you have your own digitizing service? The digitizing fee is charged by 1000 stitches. i'm not sure.


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## logoadvantage (Nov 16, 2009)

Dan
Embroidery is simply a numbers game. Profits can be good but only if you match the equipment to the size runs you are doing. Every shop needs a single head, but if you have many orders that are over 12 items you will find that owning a multi head pays off fast and saves you a TON of time. I started with a single head machine and now we have 8 machines of mixed sizes and looking to add another multi head later this year. Contracting out your bigger orders and doing your small ones in house may be the best way for you to get started and then later as the business grows you can add on equipment to do more and more in house. Keep notes on your contract work so when you go to move up you will have this information to help you decide what size machine you need. Most important start off with good equipment that will be productive and allow you to grow your business over time. Too many that fail in this business start off with cheap machines that end up being the reason for their failure.


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## Dbrisson (Mar 23, 2010)

Thanks for all the great replies, both the amaya and the brother have multi head capabilities, one is alot more industrial then the other, but the price does reflect that. What brand of equipment are your single head units? I've read alot of good things on both units


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## GeorgiaGirl7 (Nov 11, 2012)

I am in the same position as you. I started with a 1 head 1 needle personal machine in 1999. I learned about tension and backing. In Nov I bought a stahls heat press on Craigslist and now like you am requested to do bigger embroidery. I did research & decided I want a swf or Toyota. They are tough and made of metal no plastic. I bought a Toyota esp850 yesterday from craigslist while on vacation in Florida for $2800. It is tuned, oiled & timed and ready to make money.

I hope to be burdened to having to buy a multi head mahine because I have so much business!

Good luck!


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## logoadvantage (Nov 16, 2009)

I have owned several brands of machines thru the years and I got a little frustrated with the last brand we were using when they were changing where they were making their machines etc. etc etc. 
No names mentioned. 

I decided to listen to one of the people that taught me digitizing and who I had alot of respect for in his knowledge about this industry.

Clause told me to look at a ZSK machine and he has never pointed me in the wrong direction so I did.

We purchased a single head ZSK and inside of 6 months I started selling off every other machine that I owned and I replaced them all with ZSK equipment. This was the best moves we ever made.

Later on we ended up becoming a dealer for ZSK . Boy I should have done that earlier and it would have saved me a few dollars on buying all the equipment !

ZSK has been the most productive machine we have ever owned and much more durable than anything else I have ever owned or worked on in the past.

When I was in Germany at a trade show I did see another German machine that was running the entire show at really amazing speeds and never had a problem but that machine is not sold outside of Europe. It was pretty amazing. 

In America where payroll is expensive, and my time is valuable, I personally feel that owning a more productive machine is the key to sucess, which is why I would always advise people to look at the more productive brands of equipment and stick with brands that would allow them to grow over time.

I have yet to see a china or korean made machine that I would run in my own shop. I also would not want to start my business with a brand of equipment that could only sell me a single head machine. 

Do your homework. The better brands of equipment do cost more but you get what you pay for in the long run.


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## dlcompton (Jan 8, 2008)

<<I was wondering what the average cost per 1000 stitch is, it seems most garments are priced by 1000 stitches but what is the actual cost of those stiches, then I can calculate what sort of income per hour (assuming I am efficient with the equipment)>>

The actual direct cost for materials is low. Backing & thread are comparatively inexpensive (less than $1 for a 5k - 10k design) . Your real cost comes from labor and then the regular overhead costs (electricity, rent, etc.). You can run in to more expense the more colors you have/offer times how many heads you're running. E.g. 1 king spool of thread (5k meter) runs $3-$8; for a 6 head, you'll need 6 cones and if its a color you won't use again..... you get the idea. There are mini spools which are less money but again, you'll need a spool for every head you intend to run your design on. Hope this gives a general idea of "embroidery" costs.


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## Dbrisson (Mar 23, 2010)

Thanks Dl, yeah I just wanted to see, I've outsourced hats before and the cost for the first 5k stitch is 1.50, then its .50 for every 1k stitch, so I figured it had to be relatively low, I was looking at worst case scenario with the pr650, doing a hat with 12k stitch logo at min speed 400spm that would take 30 mins to do, so realistically at first I'd be doing 1.5 hats an hour max, which isn't very much income hehe, but then again while those hats are running I'm assuming I don't have to babysit the machine, I can be pressing shirts or cutting vinyl.


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## binki (Jul 16, 2006)

you really cant make any money with a single head but it does get you into the game. you will find very quickly you will need to add a 4 or 6 head and then after that you will find even that isn't enough.


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## logoadvantage (Nov 16, 2009)

Talking about thread cost. Changing from one type to another is expensive and time consuming. Start off with a good brand, not only will it perform better but it will also keep you from changing in the future and going thru that whole process. When I started we used Rayon but later changed to Poly and I ended up putting the Rayon on Ebay and making a clean change. We still use Poly but now were adding in the Frosted Mat for some projects so that does add to our cost to still stock more than one style especailly if its for a multi head machine. We however LOVE the frosted mat thread ! It runs FANTASTIC.


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## Riph (Jan 11, 2011)

Dan, to your question about Amaya vs Brother, there are a couple of threads on here that have covered that. The short version is, buy what you can get serviced. There are users here of both who are quite happy.

I happened to choose a 10 needle Brother, but my situation is probably different - I do not have room for a multihead, and where I live the cost of rental space is prohibitive. So I had to buy something physically small. You may not have that limitation. 

The main limitation of the Brother machines is speed, But I would say your analysis at 400 spm is way too conservative. I run cap jobs between 600 and 800 spm. (I achieve that speed with an aftermarket cap frame - the Brother cap frame is limited to 600spm max.) Small designs sew in 5-6 minutes, larger ones range up to 15 minutes (lots of stitches and lots of trims.) The speed you can achieve depends a lot on the particular cap, the design, location, and how well it was digitized. Minimizing trims is key to a fast sew-out. I digitize my own work and I do everything I can to reduce trims, because the Brother machines have a slow ramp up to full sewing speed. 

If I had the space, I would add a multihead machine now, but that is after two years of doing embroidery - I went through the learning curve already. As was stated earlier, every shop needs a single head, so do not feel like you are wasting your money. 

Good luck with your decision!


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## royster13 (Aug 14, 2007)

inobu said:


> ....The best way to maintain quality control is to do it yourself....
> 
> Inobu


You just need to ignore BS like this......From some one who has been outsourcing orders for 35+ years, the quality issues I run into are so "minor" they are not worth being concerned about.....There are lots of places you can outsource to that have been doing this for decades.....


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## ThreadHeadKev (Aug 3, 2011)

I outsource any hat order over 150...I supply the file...my hat supplier does the work...8-10 day turnover. They know hats, quality has always been good. They do provide a sewn sample before production, bonus for my customer.


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## Dbrisson (Mar 23, 2010)

So we ended up ordering the Melco Amaya XTS, comes in tomorrow so I'm super pumped, training is at the end of this week already have customers waiting for work, this should be exciting!, thanks again everyone for all the advice


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## inobu (Dec 29, 2010)

BDrission,

OK, now its show time. 

Go to your Goodwill shop and pick up a few sheets and extra large polo shirts or any other type of shirts that you will working with. This will allow you to play around and experiment. 

It is a trial and error endeavor but will help you to get up to speed. 

It is important that you find an wholesaler to cover the big orders. 

Good luck and make the money. 

Inobu


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