# What is the least toxic way of printing???



## Artwear By Alida (Oct 24, 2007)

*Re: I'm about to buy....opinions*



cpetersonx said:


>


You all should be looking at ink-jet type printers at trade shows.

Plastisol ruined the waterbased ink business.

Now, ink-jet is trying to take the trade away from plastisol.

Plastisol designs eventually crack and peel.

if you love a design and want your illustrations to be wearable 20 years from now as in really good artwork, forget the plastisol screen printing and get into the ink jet process.

I hate plastisol....it ran my non-toxic importers of Deka inks out of business.

So let's run plastisol out of business for any new start ups.

It cracks when you put it in a dryer for customers and is NOT environmentally friendly.

Go to a trade show and look at the new technology and let plastisol go away like they did to the wonderful inks from Deka.


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## BSApparel (Nov 6, 2007)

*Re: I'm about to buy....opinions*

Sorry, haven't seen any of my plastisol inks crack after numerous washings. Over the course of 20 years I'd be more concerned about the t-shirt falling apart than the ink, to be honest with you.


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## Artwear By Alida (Oct 24, 2007)

*Re: I'm about to buy....opinions*

If you are a true artist and not just in it for commercial business, you want your shirts to last for 20 years. My daughter still wears a t-shirt she bought in grade school and she is 22.

If you are not in it for the art, and just the business, then do what you like.

Go to a Goodwill store and see if you can find a Rolling Stones or other cool shirt which isn't cracked and a mess.

Sorry, I am in it for the art and the money also.

Andy Warhol is my god for the t-shirt biz.

I am a purist...this is wearable art for me.

You may just be a business person, so you wouldn't understand.


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## neato (Mar 21, 2006)

*Re: I'm about to buy....opinions*



Artwear By Alida said:


> Plastisol ruined the waterbased ink business.
> 
> Now, ink-jet is trying to take the trade away from plastisol.
> 
> ...


There is so much mis-information in this post, I don't even know where to start.


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## Artwear By Alida (Oct 24, 2007)

*Re: I'm about to buy....opinions*



DCInkCo said:


> Wow. This cuts right to the bone. How dare y...............nevermind, not relevant. As far as the original post, I am not familiar with American rotex, but if it looks functional and if it will serve your purposes, get it! I just bought a 8 color 4 station Hopkins International press for $1500. There are great deals out there, it just takes a little research. And as far as the negative posts, if you've got a dream go for it. Be resourceful, and you can have a top notch shop for a fraction of the cost of new. My shop is near complete, with less than $4000 invested, and I have all top of the line equipment. Just my 2 cents.
> 
> Passion...Patience...Perserverance...
> DCInkCompany


I didn't mean to get anyone upset....it's just when plastisol came onto the market, they ran out my ink supplier out of importing...and from what I see of the inkjet processes, and how they can afford to print without doing minimum runs like most printers have a two dozen minimum....and with the ink jet process, the person I know who stays contantly busy can do the whole process by himself, the graphics and then do runs. I think the printer cost $18,000. and the he has a dryer.

All I am saying is that the technology is changing faster than a rabbit being chased by a fox. And it depends on what market you are trying to market to......and your competition and the population demographics in your area and also how good your designs are.

I apologize if I offended anyone...but I still have not found anything to replace the sort of inks which were non-toxic and suited what I was doing. It took me two years to find something similiar, but I don't like them. I still have not found anything to replace my Deka inks.

sorry......didn't mean to upset anyone.....


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## ffokazak (Feb 23, 2006)

*Re: I'm about to buy....opinions*

Alida, 

Try searching for phthalate free plastisol. Seems to be a more earth friendly ink, with durability. 

Everyone has an opinion, its just realizing that others opinions can differ from your own. {Tons of people here will stand up for plastisols durability}

And about the Plastisol cracking, the funny thing is that the rolling stones shirt that is cracked and worn looking, would be worth MUCH more now because of that!


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## Artwear By Alida (Oct 24, 2007)

*Re: I'm about to buy....opinions*



ffokazak said:


> Alida,
> 
> Try searching for phthalate free plastisol. Seems to be a more earth friendly ink, with durability.
> 
> ...


I really like the new "screenless" technology....I think it's going to be the wave of the future..and more environmentally friendly, but not sure....you are trading a higher electric bill instead of labor, so who knows.

I found this site surfing....cost analysis for digital garment printer....

Screenprinting and Digital Garment Printing University

I know Andy Warhol would roll over in his grave, and screenprinting is going to be a lost art one of these days...but I think not for some years, because of the cost of the the printing machines.

But I just love the soft feel, like the old waterbased inks.

Combine that with organic cotton shirts and maybe there will be less toxins in the environment down the road from the industry....

Anyway, 'nuff said from me.....again, sorry if I offended anyone.


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## brent (Nov 3, 2006)

*Re: I'm about to buy....opinions*

Alida- Water based ink has come a long way, staying pretty eco-friendly, keeping the soft hand feel. It's going to make a comeback with new revolutionary ink lines, such as Matsui.
DTG machines aren't as good as screen printing for large production and a properly done print, in either water based or plastisol, will outlast the shirt, without cracking peeling or fading.


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## Artwear By Alida (Oct 24, 2007)

*Re: I'm about to buy....opinions*



brent said:


> Alida- Water based ink has come a long way, staying pretty eco-friendly, keeping the soft hand feel. It's going to make a comeback with new revolutionary ink lines, such as Matsui.
> DTG machines aren't as good as screen printing for large production and a properly done print, in either water based or plastisol, will outlast the shirt, without cracking peeling or fading.



Can you name some brands for me which are non-toxic water based?

Cafe press uses the ink jet type, although that isn't what they call it....and the ink goes into the fabric and they are soft. The old Deka inks also went into the fabric.

thanks.....


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## RichardGreaves (Nov 7, 2006)

*Re: I'm about to buy....opinions*



Artwear By Alida said:


> I know Andy Warhol would roll over in his grave, and screenprinting is going to be a lost art one of these days...but I think not for some years, because of the cost of the the printing machines.
> 
> But I just love the soft feel, like the old waterbased inks.
> 
> Combine that with organic cotton shirts and maybe there will be less toxins in the environment down the road from the industry....


Alas, what are the toxins in plastisol inks you are afraid of? What do you wish to avoid? I don't know how any person could ingest t-shirt ink of any kind, much less anything toxic or poisonous.

Perhaps you are afraid of toxic fumes like the kind that evaporate from air dry or water based inks? 

Water based inks are usually about 80% liquid that evaporates into the air including chemicals like formaldehyde, urea, humectants to retard evaporation and mildicides to retard bacteria growth. On some minor level, air pollution. Do you know what made the Dekaprint cure without heat?

As I have written in the past, "I love water based ink, but I would never a swallow any of it because of the chemicals in it. I would swallow plastisol, because I know what the common chemicals are." Rat poison dissolved in water is a water based product. That doesn't make it safe.

And have no fear, the new water based inks will give you the same feel as the old water based inks and I don't know that it has somehow improved or become different. It has always been available with soft resins and bright fabulous pigments.

David's Textile Inks
Aerotex Water-Based Textile Inks

Plastisol is 100% solids. Nothing evaporates. Nothing can escape to pollute, but you do have to invest in a curing oven.

Properly cured, a plastisol print will never crack. If it cracks, you know it was under cured. Period. None of the soft-hand plastisol Jimmy Buffet "Cheeseburger In Paradise" or hundreds of other designs I printed 25 years ago CAN CRACK, because the ink stained the shirt just as all wet-on-wet printing can do.

But, for the deep rich big solid areas of color for printing Mickey and Minnie Mouse, imported Italian non-ionic pigments, mixed into a water-phase ink was the best, and still cheaper than plastisol!

I love water based prints because the ink is much cheaper, brighter and softer than plastisol - although it requires special handling and curing equipment.


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## Artwear By Alida (Oct 24, 2007)

*Re: I'm about to buy....opinions*



Matto said:


> Chris,
> 
> I would jump on that press. for $500 bucks even if it needs a little tlc you can justify the repairs. Let me know if you decide not to buy it cuz I probably will.


One of my father's friends who had an auto body shop died from all the paint he inhaled from paining cars.

Oh, sure, plastisol is just great.

I also had friends who worked building fiberglass boats and didn't bother wearing masks.

A new t-shirt place just opened in my town...great aritist graphic artist, but when you go into his shop, the solvent odor is evident.

Hey people, if you don't think some of the t-shirt processes are not toxic, you are living in a dream world.


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## DCInkCo (Nov 15, 2007)

*Re: I'm about to buy....opinions*



Artwear By Alida said:


> One of my father's friends who had an auto body shop died from all the paint he inhaled from paining cars.
> 
> Oh, sure, plastisol is just great.
> 
> ...


Do you think everyone can afford a DTG printer? Whats with the negativity? This is a great business that nearly anyone can jump into with very little startup money. 

There are risks in everything one could do in this world, even walking out to the mailbox... Pleaase don't cut down someones dream because you don't like something. 

This is supposed to be a site for helping each other and finding answers to questions. We all have to start somewhere, just because you may have a DTG printer, doesn't mean we all can go that route. 

Sorry, but I had to say something.


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## Matto (Sep 28, 2007)

*Re: I'm about to buy....opinions*

Hey I do custom graphics on vehicles and you are comparing apples to oranges when it comes to auto paint and plastisol ink. Fiberglass? man your out in left field. I would wash my hands with plastisol ink and not worry a bit. 
You remind me of a friend of mine who swears elmers glue is toxic and should be removed from all schools. 
I have yet to hear about( does not mean it didnt happen.) A screen printer working with plastisol inks for decades dying from exposure to them. Maybe you are talking about sign inks which happen to be solvent based. plastisol is a pvc base and gives off negligable VOCs when cured.


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## neato (Mar 21, 2006)

*Re: I'm about to buy....opinions*



Matto said:


> Hey I do custom graphics on vehicles and you are comparing apples to oranges when it comes to auto paint and plastisol ink. Fiberglass? man your out in left field. I would wash my hands with plastisol ink and not worry a bit.
> You remind me of a friend of mine who swears elmers glue is toxic and should be removed from all schools.
> I have yet to hear about( does not mean it didnt happen.) A screen printer working with plastisol inks for decades dying from exposure to them. Maybe you are talking about sign inks which happen to be solvent based. plastisol is a pvc base and gives off negligable VOCs when cured.


lol. Exactly! 

I don't know what you're smelling when you go to the guys shop, but plastisol does not smell like solvents.

Maybe he's using Mineral Spirits to clean up with. Now those are toxic. But there are other safer alternatives.

Franmar Chemical - Environmentally Friendly Cleaners and Removers


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## Artwear By Alida (Oct 24, 2007)

*Re: I'm about to buy....opinions*



neato said:


> lol. Exactly!
> 
> I don't know what you're smelling when you go to the guys shop, but plastisol does not smell like solvents.
> 
> ...


I am not going to get into a debate about non-toxic and "green" graphic design here....the old ways with the dark rooms where horribly toxic.

I am just saying, as artists, we should lead the way in non-toxic industrial practices....I mean Van Gogh died from the lead in his paint and licking his brushes...

So okay people......I am not going to debate it.

But I am targeting the market who wants non-toxic "green" manufacturing.

You all do what you want to.

I am not responding to anything else in this topic,

As artists, we should be leaders in the industry.
You want to have toxic products and no ventilation using vinyl and other toxic emulsions...go for it.


That's not my market.

Oh, Hazmet and OHSA, come see this place!!!!!

Do what you think is right....put money before the environment.....

But not me.


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## neato (Mar 21, 2006)

*Re: I'm about to buy....opinions*

Alida, please don't be offended. It just sounds as if maybe you're talking about practices from decades ago. Plastisol does not smell like solvents. In fact, there is hardly an oder at all. Most of the smell from printing comes from the garment itself.

Is plastisol good for you? Probably not. Is it good for the environment? Probably not. Is water based inks? Probably not. Have they ever been? Probably not. 

But if a printer is responsible, he/she can use either product in a safe way and in a way that will have as little of an impact on the environment as possible.

There is not any one perfect solution and that includes DTG.


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## Artwear By Alida (Oct 24, 2007)

*Re: I'm about to buy....opinions*



neato said:


> Alida, please don't be offended. It just sounds as if maybe you're talking about practices from decades ago. Plastisol does not smell like solvents. In fact, there is hardly an oder at all. Most of the smell from printing comes from the garment itself.
> 
> Is plastisol good for you? Probably not. Is it good for the environment? Probably not. Is water based inks? Probably not. Have they ever been? Probably not.
> 
> ...


I don't care...I don't have to breathe it all day long....I am not going to die early and leave kids and family.

When I went into this guy's new shop he has invested so much money in, he told me, he uses solvents...hey, I don't care...it's his lungs

I just thought artists of the world would be the first to try to go into the "green movement".

I am still going to sell my shirts in his art gallery, but I don't have to breathe all those solvents all day.

I say, "ARTISTS OF THE WORLD, UNITE"

And let us, the weirdos set an example.

It's up to your conscious....I know I try to be as organic as possible and target that market...

It's up to all biz people to make their choices.

No offense intended.....only want to make other artists live a long life.

Peace and no offense intended.


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## Artwear By Alida (Oct 24, 2007)

Okay folks, this is the thread to discuss non-toxic "green" printing practices.

Do you care?

Do you breathe in toxic fumes all day?

Is money more important than YOUR health?

Just wondering....


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## neato (Mar 21, 2006)

Yes, I definitely care. I'm constantly searching for better and safer ways to print. I've switched from using harsh chems to using only soy based and biodegradable cleaners. I'm also involved in a constant search to find an alternative to plastisols. Right now, I use Matsui brand WB inks. 

Money is not more important than health. But I think balance is key. I mean, even stepping outside and breathing is a health risk.


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## mk162 (Sep 24, 2007)

*Re: I'm about to buy....opinions*

You're not weird for wanting to use more environmentally friendly practices, but the smear campaign against plastisol. Saying that darkrooms are horribly toxic is CRAZY. I've been around plastisol since I was 5. My dad started this company 22 years ago. I helped him fold shirts in the evening and clean up the shop. I can tell you that there is no smell from plastisol. Most of the fumes you smell from screen printing are from the dyes used in the garments. Good luck finding garments with environmentally friendly dies.

I mean no disrespect, but before you start a smear campaign against plastisol, you should do your homework. We have the fire marshall tour our facility annually. He is well aware of the chemicals here and we are not even on the special list at the fire house about special instructions in case of a reported fire at our facility, so why would we even bother having a HAZMAT team come here?

Comparing this to auto painting is a crock. Auto paint contained lead much longer than house paint. It also is sprayed into the air, plastisol isn't. Lacquer paint used in the 60's was also extremely toxic and ventilation was non-existant. Most painters drank heavily to help dissolve the paint from their lungs.

You need to compare apples to apples.


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## mk162 (Sep 24, 2007)

I think there have been studies in Impressions magazine about the health risks associated with screen printing. If I recall, there aren't many. I think Richard Greaves explained it best in the other post. It's too much to put here, maybe he can repost it.

Let's face it, it's manufacturing. I don't care what line of manufacturing it is, there are health risks. You can do all you can to minimize them, but they still exist.

We use biodegradable cleaners here now. But I can tell you that the dies in the shirts have worse fumes than even the regular screen cleaners do. Especially sweat shirts since they can hold a higher moisture content. That moisture act like a solvent, just like water through coffee, what comes out the other end is going to be carrying something with it. In that case of cotton, it is the dyes and sizing used in the manufacturing process.

Plastisol isn't toxic if you treat it right and take precautions. Why do you think it is? Is this your assumption, or do you have ACTUAL SCIENTIFIC DATA to support your theory?


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## Artwear By Alida (Oct 24, 2007)

neato said:


> Yes, I definitely care. I'm constantly searching for better and safer ways to print. I've switched from using harsh chems to using only soy based and biodegradable cleaners. I'm also involved in a constant search to find an alternative to plastisols. Right now, I use Matsui brand WB inks.
> 
> Money is not more important than health. But I think balance is key. I mean, even stepping outside and breathing is a health risk.



HURRAY for you! But it is difficult to find "green" alternatives but we can do it.

Keep up the good work...YOUR children will be the beneficiaries.


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## Artwear By Alida (Oct 24, 2007)

*Re: I'm about to buy....opinions*



mk162 said:


> You're not weird for wanting to use more environmentally friendly practices, but the smear campaign against plastisol. Saying that darkrooms are horribly toxic is CRAZY. I've been around plastisol since I was 5. My dad started this company 22 years ago. I helped him fold shirts in the evening and clean up the shop. I can tell you that there is no smell from plastisol. Most of the fumes you smell from screen printing are from the dyes used in the garments. Good luck finding garments with environmentally friendly dies.
> 
> I mean no disrespect, but before you start a smear campaign against plastisol, you should do your homework. We have the fire marshall tour our facility annually. He is well aware of the chemicals here and we are not even on the special list at the fire house about special instructions in case of a reported fire at our facility, so why would we even bother having a HAZMAT team come here?
> 
> ...


hey, I research the products...read this.


Plastisol: a clear and present danger?(plastisol inks)(Brief Article) Press, The - Find Articles

Vinyl - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

'Now you decide...it matters not to me.


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## Matto (Sep 28, 2007)

*Re: I'm about to buy....opinions*

Almost all the clean up liquids I use are citrus or soy based. Drives my wife nuts cuz the garage always smells like oranges . I paint with urethanes also and I wear all the protective gear and dispose of everything properly. I honestly think my smoking habit is a hell of a lot more trouble health wise and environment wise than either of my artistic outlets. Weed eaters and BBQs do more damage than anything I use or do.
I think I will do my part tonight and go eat out instead of firing up my BBQ. CIAO!


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## mk162 (Sep 24, 2007)

*Re: I'm about to buy....opinions*

Ok, well, since I didn't want to sign up for the first one, I read the second one. Are you planning on eating the ink? Also, there are PVC free inks on the market.

Have you researched water based inks? Like Richard said, you can dissolve rat poison in water, it's waterbased, but still toxic. Same with bug killers. DON"T EAT THE STUFF.


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## Matto (Sep 28, 2007)

*Re: I'm about to buy....opinions*

Printing Process Descriptions: Environment and Printing: The Printers' National Environmental Assistance Center: PNEAC: The Environmental Information Website for the Printing Industry


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## Artwear By Alida (Oct 24, 2007)

*Re: I'm about to buy....opinions*



Matto said:


> Printing Process Descriptions: Environment and Printing: The Printers' National Environmental Assistance Center: PNEAC: The Environmental Information Website for the Printing Industry



Good link...let people at least be educated and then make their decision.

For me, it's organic.


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## mk162 (Sep 24, 2007)

*Re: I'm about to buy....opinions*

Yeah, I read the comparisons about water based and plastisol. Guess what, each has their own drawbacks. Plastisol and waterbased are both considered hazardous until they are cured. It says plastisol contains NO solvents. So therefor, NO solvents can be discharged during curing.

I think you are trying to find information that strictly supports what you already think to be true, rather than looking at real life instances and known information about the topic at hand.


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## Artwear By Alida (Oct 24, 2007)

*Re: I'm about to buy....opinions*



mk162 said:


> Yeah, I read the comparisons about water based and plastisol. Guess what, each has their own drawbacks. Plastisol and waterbased are both considered hazardous until they are cured. It says plastisol contains NO solvents. So therefor, NO solvents can be discharged during curing.
> 
> I think you are trying to find information that strictly supports what you already think to be true, rather than looking at real life instances and known information about the topic at hand.



yeah, well the inks I used to get from Germany, Deka, which were run out of business by plastisol were completely non-toxic.you could eat them.

You all can talk all you want, but there is such a thing as non-toxic dyes.

And I worked in the old days of photo emulsion and in dark rooms to make the designs and the chemicals were TOXIC.

Why cannot the industry be a leader for green business....??


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## Artwear By Alida (Oct 24, 2007)

*Re: I'm about to buy....opinions*



Matto said:


> Almost all the clean up liquids I use are citrus or soy based. Drives my wife nuts cuz the garage always smells like oranges . I paint with urethanes also and I wear all the protective gear and dispose of everything properly. I honestly think my smoking habit is a hell of a lot more trouble health wise and environment wise than either of my artistic outlets. Weed eaters and BBQs do more damage than anything I use or do.
> I think I will do my part tonight and go eat out instead of firing up my BBQ. CIAO!


At least you are one of the responsible ones...good for you.


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## RichardGreaves (Nov 7, 2006)

*Re: I'm about to buy....opinions*



Artwear By Alida said:


> hey, I research the products...read this.
> 
> Plastisol: a clear and present danger?(plastisol inks)(Brief Article) Press, The - Find Articles
> 
> ...


How can a textile screen printer ingest liquid plasticizer?

Perhaps if they worked in the manufacturer of plastisol inks. When plastisol is cured, all the liquid plasticizer forms a film with PVC. Nothing should escape.


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## Artwear By Alida (Oct 24, 2007)

*Re: I'm about to buy....opinions*



RichardGreaves said:


> How can a textile screen printer ingest liquid plasticizer?
> 
> Perhaps if they worked in the manufacturer of plastisol inks. When plastisol is cured, all the liquid plasticizer forms a film with PVC. Nothing should escape.


You can breathe it in....the new shop I was in yesterday, you could smell the solvents they were so strong.....

I have enough pollution to deal with with three coal fired plants in my valley...I don't really care to be exposed to more toxins...the autism rate is higher than normal here....

It's just a business person's choice...try to go green or contribute to the environmental problem.


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## RichardGreaves (Nov 7, 2006)

*Re: I'm about to buy....opinions*

A solvent is not a plasticizer for plastisol. 

PVC plastisol that you quoted from Alan Farb's article in The Press.


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## Artwear By Alida (Oct 24, 2007)

*Re: I'm about to buy....opinions*



mk162 said:


> Yeah, I read the comparisons about water based and plastisol. Guess what, each has their own drawbacks. Plastisol and waterbased are both considered hazardous until they are cured. It says plastisol contains NO solvents. So therefor, NO solvents can be discharged during curing.
> 
> I think you are trying to find information that strictly supports what you already think to be true, rather than looking at real life instances and known information about the topic at hand.


And what happens when you clean the screens?????? Where does that flow?


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## RichardGreaves (Nov 7, 2006)

*Re: I'm about to buy....opinions*

Into a recirculation system and recycled and I certainly don't ingest it.


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## Artwear By Alida (Oct 24, 2007)

*Re: I'm about to buy....opinions*



RichardGreaves said:


> Into a recirculation system and recycled and I certainly don't ingest it.


yes, but you breathe it in...and how many people really let their chemicals go into a recirculation system??????????????????????

Tell us about your recirculation system and what company you work for....


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## mk162 (Sep 24, 2007)

*Re: I'm about to buy....opinions*

Well, ours go into a parts cleaner and from there they are cured and disposed of....in accordance with local guidelines.


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## Artwear By Alida (Oct 24, 2007)

*Re: I'm about to buy....opinions*



RichardGreaves said:


> Into a recirculation system and recycled and I certainly don't ingest it.


Hey, Richard, don't you work for Ulano, one of the plastisol companies and don't even silk screen yourself, but sell the product?


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## mk162 (Sep 24, 2007)

*Re: I'm about to buy....opinions*

Ulano doesn't make ink. You need to do some research. Ulano sells graphic imaging supplies for both plastisol and waterbased use. He has more knowledge than you, especially on how products are made. Watching a PBS or BBC special certainly doesn't make you an expert.


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## Artwear By Alida (Oct 24, 2007)

*Re: I'm about to buy....opinions*



mk162 said:


> Ulano doesn't make ink. You need to do some research. Ulano sells graphic imaging supplies for both plastisol and waterbased use. He has more knowledge than you, especially on how products are made. Watching a PBS or BBC special certainly doesn't make you an expert.


I am saying I am an expert, but I have worked in the industry for over 20 years. I think that gives me some credibility.

And Ulano doesn't sell anything toxic?

yeah, right


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## T-BOT (Jul 24, 2006)

*What is the least toxic way of printing???* 

organic staining.  




:


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## Artwear By Alida (Oct 24, 2007)

*Re: I'm about to buy....opinions*



Artwear By Alida said:


> I am saying I am an expert, but I have worked in the industry for over 20 years. I think that gives me some credibility.
> 
> And Ulano doesn't sell anything toxic?
> 
> yeah, right


YOU should do some research on Ulano
Ulano Corp. Screen Making Products


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## Artwear By Alida (Oct 24, 2007)

T-BOT said:


> *What is the least toxic way of printing???*
> 
> organic staining.
> 
> ...


Try googling for it...India and Africa and other nations have had non-toxic dyes for centuries..learn something new....

Otherwise, you are making the future worse for your children and the future of the planet.

if India can make wonderful textiles with natural dyes, then the t-shirt industry should be able to come up with more "green" technology, instead of petroleum based plastisol and other harmful chemicals.


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## mothertongues (Aug 8, 2005)

I've been trying to read up on the "greenest" way for printing for quite a while now, but you'll find very contradicting opinions on this forum. It made me decide that it is better (for now, I may still change my mind!) to screenprint locally than to ship across the country to print with WB ink. I haven't been able to find a local WB ink printer, yet!


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## Artwear By Alida (Oct 24, 2007)

mk162 said:


> Oh man, you need to lay off the Kool-Aid.
> 
> I found plenty of articles on Global Dimming.
> 
> ...


For every article you can show me how safe plastisol is, I can find one for how dangerous it is to the environment....so I say we are at a standstill.

Everyone has to make the choice.

And then deal with the results.


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## mk162 (Sep 24, 2007)

DTG is a great way, a lot less waste than both methods. The Brother ink is non-toxic, I know that. But that doesn't mean I would drink it.

Most of the toxins come from the dyes used in the shirts. It's hard to find anything like that from suppliers. They just don't carry it.


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## Artwear By Alida (Oct 24, 2007)

mothertongues said:


> I've been trying to read up on the "greenest" way for printing for quite a while now, but you'll find very contradicting opinions on this forum. It made me decide that it is better (for now, I may still change my mind!) to screenprint locally than to ship across the country to print with WB ink. I haven't been able to find a local WB ink printer, yet!


Try reading about vinyl and how even Target stores are going to stop selling anything vinyl...oh sure, almost every trailer home is made with it and it's all over our society, but so was asbestos.

You young people need to be the hope for the future, not the capitalist consumers of your forefathers.


----------



## T-BOT (Jul 24, 2006)

Artwear By Alida said:


> Try googling for it...India and Africa and other nations have had non-toxic dyes for centuries..learn something new....


 
I knew that.  
yeah, and the first color was purple.....

What is the square root of 100 buckets of Non-Toxic DENSE dye ?  



:


----------



## Artwear By Alida (Oct 24, 2007)

mk162 said:


> DTG is a great way, a lot less waste than both methods. The Brother ink is non-toxic, I know that. But that doesn't mean I would drink it.
> 
> Most of the toxins come from the dyes used in the shirts. It's hard to find anything like that from suppliers. They just don't carry it.



I totally agree that the digital way with non toxic dyes is the way to go and is the wave of the future.

I almost puked when I went into a new silk screen shop in town who is going to use solvents....how many years is he going to live cancer free, I wonder?
It made me sick just to walk in his shop.l


----------



## mk162 (Sep 24, 2007)

Ok, I want a simple answer. What ink is he using and what is he printing? Is he using vinyl ink for signs. Plastisol ink has virtually no odor, even when curing. Our chemicals have almost no odor. I would be willing to bet your friend isn't printing just t-shirts. Either that or you have convinced yourself that plastisol is toxic and at this point it is all in your head.


----------



## T-BOT (Jul 24, 2006)

hey there Artwear by Alida,

just to set things straight here, on a good note.

I would say every member of this board IS aware of ALL the challanges 
we are facing as responsible human beings relating to the inviroment and the industry we love. 

...we are not as stupid as we may look.  



:


----------



## Artwear By Alida (Oct 24, 2007)

T-BOT said:


> hey there Artwear by Alida,
> 
> just to set things straight here, on a good note.
> 
> ...


Believe me, if ever there were people who care about the environment, I know it is graphic designers and pure artists...I do not think you ALL are stupid...but there are some company execs on these forums trying to sell their toxic products and tell you they are perfectly okay.

That is the message I just want to get across to newbies.


----------



## Matto (Sep 28, 2007)

*Re: I'm about to buy....opinions*

Old fashioned works for me. I wont bend to environmentalist views when they dont match my own. Yeah I worry about What I am Leaving my kids but at the same time I wont teach them to live in tee pees and ride donkeys to save the world. Progress will alway generate toxins and the work I do is so minimalistic in the grander scope that anything I do to help the environment is miniscule and petty to say the least. 

I love my natural environment here in florida But I have to say it was screwed up way before I got here and nothing I am going to do is going to cure that by any means. Benzene,DDT,Methanol and chloride are just a few of the goodies in the ground in my area. I would say that my plastisol is damn near candy compared to those.

I honestly believe in a couple billion years our planet will be swallowed by our sun and there will be humans here to witness it. Glad I wont be.


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## Matto (Sep 28, 2007)

So I have to know, When you open the lid to you DTG do you find any kind of residue? I know on my Epson printer if I do not wipe down the inside after a cartrige change, over time it is filthy in there. That means even printers give off vapors of some type. Plastisol is my choice and will remain my choice as the water base products are no safer they just have a softer hand. I guess I could go out and collect different types of berries and use them instead.


----------



## RichardGreaves (Nov 7, 2006)

*Re: I am an expert*

To Whom It May Concern and Alida

I have been screen printing since 1979. I am a very easy guy to find including the fact that I publish my email address in my profile.

I was an automatic and four color process printing pioneer with plastisol and water based inks. I have owned and worked in screen shops from 4-17 automatics, supervising more than 150 people. I can make water base and plastisol inks from scratch.

I wrote a column in Screen Printing magazine for 9 years called "Greaves on Garments". I was the Technical Editor of Printwear magazine for 5 years. 1995-2000. I stopped counting after I got to 200 columns. I wrote the "Printers Guidebook" with essays on 53 screen printing variables in 1996.

I am a member of the Academy of Screen Printing Technology, serving as Librarian and head of the article review committee.

I have spoken at every major screen printing show since 1984 and more supplier Open Houses than I can remember. I stopped speaking at ISShows when they cut back on seminars in 2002.

For the last 7 years, I have been the only person to speak on screen printing at the 5 regional NBM Printwear shows until this year when Lon Winters started speaking about special effects inks.

Yes, I am not printing now. I am the head of Technical Services at Ulano. Your suggestion that we drink Ulano products if we like them so much is just plain ..... argumentative. 

Yes, you should write and stand by your opinions like PETA supporter and fight _the man_, but much of what you have written is wrong, not based on fact and not balanced. I have to respond and balance what you have written. 

Toxic has a very specific meaning and in the last 30 years, only lead, methylene chloride and bichromate have been banned in the screen printing world. Perhaps I'm wrong and there are other chemicals that have been squeezed out. 

Since I've never heard of any damage caused in the screen printing world by pigments, compared to cigarette smoking, influenza, carbon arc rods, I'm not very impressed. The PVC is dangerous debate, re-surfaces every five years or so. Hysteria.

As far as recirculation - City water systems are recirculation systems. Water is contained and purified. I don't know of any public water system that objects to screen making chemicals. Around the world, in every city, shops rinse and reclaim stencils down the drain.

Legislation enacted in the early 80's grant everyone the "Right To Know" and require MSDSs document what hazards a person might be exposed to. All businesses have the responsibility to annually train employees provide that information to anyone that wants to know. If you're going to write warnings about you better come out with something stronger than a odor you don't like.

I don't want ANY ink to go down the drain, it wastes ink, but I know that water filtration can handle the pigment dispersions and resins in plastisol.

There are many caustic and oxidizing chemicals in EVERYONE's screen making chemical line. Mixing caustic and bases together will release plenty of nasty fumes, just like mixing Comet cleanser and bleach releases hydrogen phosphine gas - Very popular deadly gas in WWI. But, I do not know of any toxic plastisol ink problems.

The European Union is leading the way in legislation to ban PVC and most plastisol companies are working on PVC-free inks. The world will acclimate to PVC plastisol ink, just like it did when laws prevented the use of lead based pigments, even though there is no way to ingest cured plastisol ink on a shirt, except to chew it off the shirt. 

This is very different from children eating lead based paints from chipped walls or Chinese toys.

On a personal note, if you have been screen printing for 20 years and don't know what Ulano does, your other arguments don't carry much weight.


----------



## mk162 (Sep 24, 2007)

*Re: I'm about to buy....opinions*

Thanks Richard, nicely written. I figured you knew you background better than me


----------



## Artwear By Alida (Oct 24, 2007)

*Re: I am an expert*



RichardGreaves said:


> To Whom It May Concern and Alida
> 
> I have been screen printing since 1979. I am a very easy guy to find including the fact that I publish my email address in my profile.
> 
> ...



yeah, then why are the Target Stores stopping selling vinyl and San Francisco is banning any children't toys or pacifiers or anything which contains vinyl......

the same product which all siding is made of.

Yes, I was married to a college professor who had to have 20 years worth of reseach before believing it was bad...

It was the same things with asbestos and I have a friend who is in his 60's and never smoked a cigt and is dying from working in the shipyards during WW II because if the asbestos he inhaled,


So you want people 20 years from now to be sick because there isn't any proof now that people who work with plastisol or vinyl is proven to be toxic...well when I walked into the new screen printer in my town, I almost gagged from the fumes of the solvents he is using........and believe me, the water is already so bad where I live, there is an oily film on top with things floating in it. You can't even drink the city water and the city water filtration will NOT take these toxic chemicals out of our drinking water, much less the medications, pesticides and other things we have in the drinking water.

So, you all who don't give a darm what happens to our planet, because you don't want to learn anything new and healthy, go ahead, but your business is going to suffer because the environmentally informed are going to QUIT buying YOUR products when they can get the same thing organic.

So, eat our dust.


----------



## Artwear By Alida (Oct 24, 2007)

*Re: I'm about to buy....opinions*



mk162 said:


> Yep, that sounds to me like you are accusing him of selling plastisol, when in fact, they sell products for both types of printing. So what does it matter what people print with, they have products for both. They still make money.
> 
> 
> 
> No thanks, I'm driving


He is a Ulano exectuive and in charge of selling their chemicals.
Check out his website.


----------



## Artwear By Alida (Oct 24, 2007)

Matto said:


> So I have to know, When you open the lid to you DTG do you find any kind of residue? I know on my Epson printer if I do not wipe down the inside after a cartrige change, over time it is filthy in there. That means even printers give off vapors of some type. Plastisol is my choice and will remain my choice as the water base products are no safer they just have a softer hand. I guess I could go out and collect different types of berries and use them instead.


In the printing business there is going to be SOME toxic things...but they should recyclable. The rags you use should go the same route empty paint cans go.

And hey, organic weavers use all natural dyes and they still are doing it in some places in India...where the best silk and fabric (madras) has been being produced for years....know they use goat poop to set the dyes?????

I would rather have goat poop than Ulano chemicals.


----------



## Artwear By Alida (Oct 24, 2007)

*Re: I'm about to buy....opinions*

Check out these printers...however may people who say they are "green" are really not, so you have to check them out . Organic is the way to go....it is the wave of the future.

::GreenerPrinter.com - Affordable, high quality, eco-friendly printing with soy inks on New Leaf Paper -- with Greenbiz.com, now shipping Climate Cool with net-zero climate impact::


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## Solmu (Aug 15, 2005)

http://www.t-shirtforums.com/forum-information/t4.html
Don't attack others with words. Personal attacks on others will not be tolerated. Flaming, derogatory insults and hate speech will not be allowed in this forum. If you disagree with another member’s point of view, do so in a mature and civil manner. If someone seeks help from other forums members, please do not respond unless you have something positive or helpful to add. If you find yourself being flamed or insulted by another member, please do not dignify that person with a response.​That's all I have to add to this thread.


----------



## neato (Mar 21, 2006)

*Re: I am an expert*



Artwear By Alida said:


> Yes, I *was *married to a college professor who had to have 20 years worth of reseach before believing it was bad...


Smart guy.


----------



## Rodney (Nov 3, 2004)

*Thread note:* some posts have been moved out of this thread.

Just to follow up with what Solmu posted. 

Do not call any names or make personal comments or accusations about other users. You are welcome to discuss the issue at hand, but we do not allow those type of rude/attacking posts here.​


----------



## Artwear By Alida (Oct 24, 2007)

*Re: I'm about to buy....opinions*



RichardGreaves said:


> Alas, what are the toxins in plastisol inks you are afraid of? What do you wish to avoid? I don't know how any person could ingest t-shirt ink of any kind, much less anything toxic or poisonous.
> 
> Perhaps you are afraid of toxic fumes like the kind that evaporate from air dry or water based inks?
> 
> ...



Here is a link which talks about plastisol (down further in the article). it has some of the same ingredients as PVC which is one of the most toxic products we are facing in our society today, as it is everywhere, in new cars (the smell) in carpet, (the FEMA trailers), shower curtains, (you can smell it)

All I am saying is to be educated. I do not believe plastisol does not leave any carbon footprints...that carbon foodprint thing isn't everything about being environmental. There are other things to condsider....anyway, I am done discussing it. 

Everyone to their own opinion and business practices.

I still am going to somehow try to find a totally non-toxic ink.

Polyvinyl Chloride Michael W. Allsopp, Giovanni Vianello* 2002


----------



## AustinJeff (May 12, 2007)

*Re: I'm about to buy....opinions*



Artwear By Alida said:


> Organic is the way to go....it is the wave of the future.


Honestly, my thinking used to be very similar to yours. Check some of my early posts here if you don't believe me. But I actually started to listen to what people like Richard and Lewis (Solmu) were saying, and started doing some real research.

As it turns out, organic actually is the wave of the past...or at the least, of the present. Do you know who is the world's largest retailer of organic goods? Wal-Mart. By far. "Organic" is quickly losing its significance.

The wave of the future is sustainability. 

Exhibit 1: The Aral Sea. This sea in Russia is disappearing, and it's not due to global warming. It's due primarily to cotton farming, some of it organic. And it's one of the planet's worst environmental disasters. It really doesn't matter much whether they are growing organic cotton or not. They are growing it in the middle of a freakin' desert.

How about this: is it better to buy an organic cotton shirt that is grown in desert land in China using hydroelectric power and water from the Three Gorges Dam and sewn at or near slave labor conditions and then shipped half way around the world, or one that is grown using responsibly applied non-organic fertilizers on a near by family farm, woven and sewn and printed by workers getting a fair wage, all within 500 miles of the point of sale?

Also, were you aware that the tonnage of organic cotton goods produced last year was actually significantly more than the tonnage of organic cotton grown worldwide? How could that happen? It seems pretty clear to me that much of what is being sold as organic cotton, is, in fact, not.

On a more significant note, there was an interesting article in the Economist earlier this year that claimed that a large scale switch to organic agriculture would lead to widespread famine due to decreased production per acre of arable land. I don't have enough expertise to evaluate this claim, but I'm not willing to write it off simply because it does not fit in with what I want to believe is true.

I'm certainly with you on looking for ways to produce environmentally friendly products. But in this area, most generalities are meaningless. Organic isn't necessarily good. Plastisol isn't necessarily bad. There are dozens of other factors that go into each product that should all be taken into consideration. There are trade offs with everything. But it is impossible to make a rational decision if you don't fully understand exactly what you are trading.


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## T-BOT (Jul 24, 2006)

i read that somewhere too.

thanks for sheering.  



:


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## Solmu (Aug 15, 2005)

Well put Jeff.


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## karlking85 (Sep 26, 2007)

Jeff, that is quite possibly the most educated and thought provoking post in this entire thread. Thank you for that.


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## AustinJeff (May 12, 2007)

I forgot to mention a very interesting development along these lines. At the Ft. Worth ISS show, I was told by an Anvil rep that this Spring they will be introducing a line of 100% _post-consumer_ recycled cotton T-shirts. 

It's such an enormous leap forward in terms of environmental impact that I suspect that a year from now we will have people here ranting about how horrible organic cotton is, even when watered purely with hippie sweat.

But there's always a downside. In this case, the big one is that the shirts, like Anvil's organic line, will be produced in Honduras. It's always something.


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## mk162 (Sep 24, 2007)

I've heard that with most organic goods.

Not only that, the name rubs me the wrong way. Technically anything carbon based is organic.

Also, there was a study released just this week that claims in a blind taste test, people couldn't tell the difference between organic and conventional fruits and veggies. They also found the amount of pesticides on the food to be so minuscule that it doesn't pose a threat to humans.


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## Artwear By Alida (Oct 24, 2007)

*Re: I'm about to buy....opinions*



AustinJeff said:


> Honestly, my thinking used to be very similar to yours. Check some of my early posts here if you don't believe me. But I actually started to listen to what people like Richard and Lewis (Solmu) were saying, and started doing some real research.
> 
> As it turns out, organic actually is the wave of the past...or at the least, of the present. Do you know who is the world's largest retailer of organic goods? Wal-Mart. By far. "Organic" is quickly losing its significance.
> 
> ...


I agree, as I said before, some people advertise their products as "green" when they really are not.

And what you said about buying from a 500 mile radius from a small farm is correct and is one of the plans by environmentalists.

I used to have a lady sew clothes I designed and painted and sold in galleried and shops....she would go to a nearby mill and sew shirts and skirts and pants and dressed I designed, painted on with screen printing ink and sold in galleries, etc.

Well, the textile mills have moved to Mexico and other places.....I lost more of my clothing vendor who just went out of business like my ink provider whose waterbased organic inks were replaced by plastisol.

But, I agree with you.

However I do think it's up to everyone to try to do their bit.

And sustainability is the wave of the future, but being certified organic is going to be more popular as time goes by.

I have seen the Anvil organic cotton shirts which are priced very very good, but I just don't like their shirts very much. I prefer Hanes beefy, Guilden, and Patagonia.....Patagonia is organic, but expensive. That's the problem, the organic shirts are more expensive...however the new Anvil shirts are priced like ordinary shirts.

We have to do what we can to keep the water resources as clean as possible. What you wash down the drain, is showing up in cities drinking water, just like other many things which cannot be filtered out as yet.


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## AustinJeff (May 12, 2007)

mk162 said:


> Also, there was a study released just this week that claims in a blind taste test, people couldn't tell the difference between organic and conventional fruits and veggies. They also found the amount of pesticides on the food to be so minuscule that it doesn't pose a threat to humans.


My experience tends to suggest pretty strongly that although fresh organic produce does tend to taste better, it is usually do to factors other than being organic. For example, factory farms use monoculture seeds that have been developed for many factors. Longevity on the shelf and ease of shipping are probably the two biggest. Organic farmers tend to use a wide variety of heirloom seeds which were developed primarily to taste good. Grow these varieties with non-organic methods, and they will probably tasted just as good, if not better. Other than fresh produce, I can rarely tell a difference. I buy organic primarily for reasons other than taste.

As far as the pesticides study goes, with a study like that, it's important to know who conducted it and who funded it. And when they talk about safe levels, it is crucial to understand that those are safe levels for adults. It's difficult or impossible to get information about safe levels for kids, particularly infants.

Also, there is now evidence that harmful effects from pesticides can be passed on to offspring through epigenetics. It is not clear whether these effects are cumulative. If so, our conception of safe levels will be geometrically reduced.


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## T-BOT (Jul 24, 2006)

hey Artwear By Alida, 

curious, have you spent any amount of time outside of the USA?

the reason I ask is because a few months ago I witness a fair size river that has been cleaned up 100%. 10 years ago, it was a mess.

do you know that in a lot of places around the globe solar heating options has been mandatory since 20 years ago for example. 

What may be new to some around the globe is really old news for others.


...just a couple of thoughts.  




:


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## mk162 (Sep 24, 2007)

Well, I can't remember the university, but I want to say it was Illinois or Indiana, for some reason an I pops into my head. I am way too lazy to look it up.

The study revealed that a lot of what people think about organic is in their heads. The placebo effect if you will.

The unfortunate thing is that people that don't believe in the "global warming is man made" theory often get labeled as hating the environment. this isn't the case. I make efforts to lower my impact through conservation. I've been using compact fluorescents for about 6 years now, ever since I bought my first home. I tell dozens of people about them, not many listen. I think I see a great stocking stuffer this year.

I do what I can, as a matter of fact, I need to go round up all of our excess mis-prints and go donate them to the local homeless shelter. And I need to take our excess catalogs to the recyclers. It's not hard, especially when they are both close to each other.


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## T-BOT (Jul 24, 2006)

mk162 said:


> I do what I can, as a matter of fact, I need to go round up all of our excess mis-prints and go donate them to the local homeless shelter. And I need to take our excess catalogs to the recyclers. It's not hard, especially when they are both close to each other.


thats a good thing you are doing.

I wonder if this member is still around: 

Scrap-Boy
Garbage Transfers Recycle Guy! 



 



:


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## mk162 (Sep 24, 2007)

Well, let's face it, some people need help, not handouts. I have no problem giving people clothing that we would otherwise have no need for. It's better than giving them money. Heck I've even hired people in need before.

I would rather donate on my own free will than have it forced upon me like it is with so many social programs. There are so many well run organizations out there that need money and goods and there are so many government programs that waste it. It's a real shame.

This way, I know what I am giving goes straight to people that need it. There is much more reward in life than the feeling you get from that.

As a matter of fact...I think everybody here should make an effort to donate some excess merchandise to your local charity. You can take a write-off on it. And it helps YOUR community.

MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!


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## adawg2252 (Dec 12, 2007)

As an add-in, you should look into Spectrachem waterbased inks. Also non toxic, but with a slight odor, they are really nice inks. Good range of colors, and you can even get pantone matches too.

Good luck!


----------



## Artwear By Alida (Oct 24, 2007)

T-BOT said:


> hey Artwear By Alida,
> 
> curious, have you spent any amount of time outside of the USA?
> 
> ...


I have not personally been out of the country, but I have been a volunteer for watersheds for a long time and also currently am a volunteer as an outreach specialist.
I am a clean water and food safety advocate.

I read what other countries go on many websites.

The USA has a long way to go, but I think there is still hope. Sure we could all just get blown up by a comet or a volcano, but to me, it's still worth trying to do my bit and not make things worse.

Happy Holidays?????

All I want for Christmas is my website up!!!!


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## staned (Feb 25, 2007)

check out international coatings gen4 eco friendly water base ink. stan


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## neato (Mar 21, 2006)

Hey Stan,

I thought that wasn't out yet?


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## staned (Feb 25, 2007)

i'll email them to see when shipping starts. i think they are shooting for jan. stan


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## Artwear By Alida (Oct 24, 2007)

staned said:


> check out international coatings gen4 eco friendly water base ink. stan


Thanks, all suggestions are appreciated....

Besides Target, Sears and K-mart are going to STOP seling anything made with PVC, and plastisol containt phythalates, lead and other toxic chemicals.

They say their products must be certified PVC Free.

Read this:

Sears and Kmart Join Trend Away from PVC Plastics

Happy Holiday!!! Maybe someone will find the ex-Deka inks made in Germany and start making them again.


----------



## Artwear By Alida (Oct 24, 2007)

I found the site for Deka Paints for fabric, silk, and even wood!!!!

A wonderful person on the forums sent me their website in Germany!!!!!

However I have not found out the cost since they would have to ship to the states and are not sold in the USA

They even are still making their website available in English. It has previously only been in German!

Hurray!!

I just hope they don't cost too too much or they will start selling in the USA again.

DEKA-Textilfarben GmbH

They are great for handpainting, silk screening, and watering down for airbrush without fillers. Of course when you water down for airbrush, you have to make sure you stir them well and get all the lumps out so they don't clog your airbrush. But the money you save is huge instead of buying small bottles of airbrush paints.

The colors are great and the ink sinks into the fabric and do not fade out.

The only drawback is that they don't print well on black. However the white, gold and metallic colors when hand painting can give good affects.

I am NOT affiliated with this company in ANY way...I am just so glad a nice person on this site found they are still making them available in Germany.

Thanks and Happy New Year, R.


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## tpitman (Jul 30, 2007)

I'm sure cost shouldn't be a factor if you're that convinced that Deka inks are that great. Maybe you ought to become a distributor for Deka in the US and be the industry leader that you want us all to become. Then again, one has to wonder why such a great product quit selling here. I guess the manufacturer was more about the business and less about the artist. Also, since you're convinced that Deka inks are so non-toxic you're eat them, assuming the pigments themselves weren't toxic, what binder did they use to make them permanent once dried, or cured? On another note, since you're convinced that inkjet DTG is the wave of the future, is that the technology you are using now? Did you drop the $18,000 you mentioned to "get on board" the movement to drive plastisol out of business? If not, what you are using to print shirts with now?. No doubt someone as passionate as you about the evils of plastisol has researched all the chemistry and pigments used in DTG inks to see if there are any toxic components.


----------



## Artwear By Alida (Oct 24, 2007)

tpitman said:


> I'm sure cost shouldn't be a factor if you're that convinced that Deka inks are that great. Maybe you ought to become a distributor for Deka in the US and be the industry leader that you want us all to become. Then again, one has to wonder why such a great product quit selling here. I guess the manufacturer was more about the business and less about the artist. Also, since you're convinced that Deka inks are so non-toxic you're eat them, assuming the pigments themselves weren't toxic, what binder did they use to make them permanent once dried, or cured? On another note, since you're convinced that inkjet DTG is the wave of the future, is that the technology you are using now? Did you drop the $18,000 you mentioned to "get on board" the movement to drive plastisol out of business? If not, what you are using to print shirts with now?. No doubt someone as passionate as you about the evils of plastisol has researched all the chemistry and pigments used in DTG inks to see if there are any toxic components.


I have checked out the toxic properties of DTG. There is a hazmet warning.

Someone sent me a link to a manufacturer of plastisol and is taking out one of the toxic chemicals....but only one, because the major stores are all going to insist on PVC products and the plastisol has the same properties at PVC.....

I would LOVE to be the distributor of the DEKA paints (that is what the Germans call them).

I have already emailed Dharma Trading where I used to buy them and sent their email and asked if they would contact the company and perhaps start selling them again.

The huge obstacle is the dollar is low and a dollar doesn't buy much in Germany these days. So their paints would be so expensive here. That is the economics of it.

What I paid $32.00 a quart for 20 years ago, may now cost $100. dollars.

They advertise their paints as ecofriendly.....perhaps as more and more printers want to become ecofriendly, the demand will grow.

And Plastisol is what drove Deka out of the USE because they do not print as good on dark black shirt, although I used the metallics well on dart shirts.

Plastisol gave people the opportunity to paint on black shirts and motivated people to switch.

And I just believe DTG is going to replace plastisol because you can use less space, less toxic fumes and less labor costs.

One person can do almost everything with the DTG.

A good graphic artist, the printing, the drying and the delivering depending on the amount of your business.

Only time will tell if DTG is going to replace plastisol and silk screening.

Happy New Year!!!!!


----------



## Artwear By Alida (Oct 24, 2007)

staned said:


> check out international coatings gen4 eco friendly water base ink. stan


I checked out their site and only found one product they took only one toxic chemical out of.

I didn't see the gen4 eco, or at least the latest product was not called that


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## AustinJeff (May 12, 2007)

Artwear By Alida said:


> I have checked out the toxic properties of DTG. There is a hazmet warning.


Which specific "DTG" did you check out? There are several kinds of ink, as I'm sure you know. And some of them are waterbased.

By "hazmet warning" do you mean MSDS sheet? Where can I find this warning?


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## Artwear By Alida (Oct 24, 2007)

AustinJeff said:


> Which specific "DTG" did you check out? There are several kinds of ink, as I'm sure you know. And some of them are waterbased.
> 
> By "hazmet warning" do you mean MSDS sheet? Where can I find this warning?


Perhaps it's called the MSDS sheet. All I know is when I went to check out the DTG one of my printers is using, it has a hazmet warning with the number denoting the toxicity of the ink.

I don't know what sort of ink he uses...I do know I asked for a certain color to be printed on my shirts with a sample shirt and the darn color didn't come out the same as the sample I took him.

Oh Well.....life goes on...


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## sunnydayz (Jun 22, 2007)

Artwear By Alida said:


> And I just believe DTG is going to replace plastisol because you can use less space, less toxic fumes and less labor costs.
> 
> One person can do almost everything with the DTG.
> 
> ...


This is really a misconception about DTG printers. I do have a DTG and in no way will it replace screen printing. I think what a lot of people dont understand about dtg is that it is great for short runs but no way would I do an order of 300 or 500 with my machine as there would be no profit and I would probably lose money considering the price of my consumables. Screen printing and Dtg fill two completely different markets. Dtg is great for short runs and screen printing is great for larger runs, I dont think screen printers have anything to worry about with dtg's on the market  .


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## Artwear By Alida (Oct 24, 2007)

sunnydayz said:


> This is really a misconception about DTG printers. I do have a DTG and in no way will it replace screen printing. I think what a lot of people dont understand about dtg is that it is great for short runs but no way would I do an order of 300 or 500 with my machine as there would be no profit and I would probably lose money considering the price of my consumables. Screen printing and Dtg fill two completely different markets. Dtg is great for short runs and screen printing is great for larger runs, I dont think screen printers have anything to worry about with dtg's on the market  .


Well, cafe press seems to print a great deal and that's what they use, isn't it?

I mean the printer I know does more than 500 runs...he is constantly printing.


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## sunnydayz (Jun 22, 2007)

Yes cafe press does do alot of shirts but they are also all at retail price. It is to difficult to do long runs and make a profit with the prices of the dtg ink. The time and cost of consumables does not make it profitable. If you go to dtg america and look at the cost of the ink you will understand. just one liter of one color of ink will cost almost $300. When I print on a black shirt for a full front design the ink alone cost around $3.50 to $4.00 just in ink. That is not even including the cost of the garment or the pretreatment. Cafe press uses Kornit machines that cost $175,000 and most people cannot afford to buy that kind of machine. If I were a screen printer I would not be worried about dtg taking my business but that is just my opinion. I would say if your printer is printing jobs of 500 all the time then he is probably not making a whole lot unless he has a kornit which the inks are much cheaper for.


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## chdzns (Jun 9, 2007)

I am a screen printer and I send all of my nuisance customers to the DTG printer a couple of blocks away. I think the printer up the street that has thirty automatics does the same thing to me with my one auto. 

$4 per shirt for ink is crazy. if you are doing a couple of shirts you have to charge something like $50 a shirt. Dont you have to mask out the photo first; It is going to take you at least a 15 minutes to rum that job. AndI back to the post. The k9 water base from rutland doesn't seen to have any vapor or anything. I dont really smell anything from plastisol either. They both seem safe to me. The only thing that bothers me is my dehazer / degreaser. It smells like juicy fruit and will burn your skin, but it sure gets those screens cleen. I was an iron worker for before I started printing and I think printing seems pretty safe to me. 







sunnydayz said:


> Yes cafe press does do alot of shirts but they are also all at retail price. It is to difficult to do long runs and make a profit with the prices of the dtg ink. The time and cost of consumables does not make it profitable. If you go to dtg america and look at the cost of the ink you will understand. just one liter of one color of ink will cost almost $300. When I print on a black shirt for a full front design the ink alone cost around $3.50 to $4.00 just in ink. That is not even including the cost of the garment or the pretreatment. Cafe press uses Kornit machines that cost $175,000 and most people cannot afford to buy that kind of machine. If I were a screen printer I would not be worried about dtg taking my business but that is just my opinion. I would say if your printer is printing jobs of 500 all the time then he is probably not making a whole lot unless he has a kornit which the inks are much cheaper for.


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## sunnydayz (Jun 22, 2007)

chdzns said:


> I am a screen printer and I send all of my nuisance customers to the DTG printer a couple of blocks away. I think the printer up the street that has thirty automatics does the same thing to me with my one auto.
> 
> $4 per shirt for ink is crazy. if you are doing a couple of shirts you have to charge something like $50 a shirt. Dont you have to mask out the photo first; It is going to take you at least a 15 minutes to rum that job. AndI back to the post. The k9 water base from rutland doesn't seen to have any vapor or anything. I dont really smell anything from plastisol either. They both seem safe to me. The only thing that bothers me is my dehazer / degreaser. It smells like juicy fruit and will burn your skin, but it sure gets those screens cleen. I was an iron worker for before I started printing and I think printing seems pretty safe to me.


$4 covers the printing cost on a large full front design and I dont know what you mean by masking the photo first. I dont have to do anything other than pretreat the shirt and print. It takes about five to 10 minutes to do. That is the one thing I can say about dtg is that I dont have to burn screens or sererate the colors or any of that. Hehe and I dont have to sell a shirt for $50 to make a decent profit but I also cant print as cheaply as a screen printer can doing a larger run of shirts. Now if it is a small order than it could be comparable because I have higher ink prices but I dont have the set ups or screen burning that a screen printer does. But that was my point that both have there place in the printing business and not being in competition with each other.

I agree about it being safer than iron work hehe I was a welder doing custom forged Iron for 14 years.


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## acanvas (Sep 27, 2007)

*Re: I am an expert*

Thanks for the info Richard, It is so great having such an authority on this forum! The recirculation issues with all city water systemsanswered a long standing question for me. We will eventually work with water based as an option for clients but even though we installed a heavy duty exhaust system thru our chimney we prefer the solids in Plastisol for now. We strive to be as green as possible with full education. We can use pvc/phalate free inks, soy based reclaiming chemicals and feel good about our waste because we know plastisol inks last for years and we scoop every bit we can back into the container after each run. I don't like the waste we'll have to produce with water based since we can not scoop it all back into the container and the shelf life is much shorter. All in all, we have far less waste with plastisol, less voc emmision and provide an extremely soft hand for every run with the use of soft hand base and high mesh screens. We print primarily fashion retail lines and must provide a modern soft feel. We also only print on sweatshop free and eco friendly apparel. I feel very confident when I discuss this issue with clients because I take into consideration the solids issue of plastisol and the VERY Long shlef life which lessens our waste.


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## Artwear By Alida (Oct 24, 2007)

ImageIt said:


> Out of curiosity, i looked up the MSDS to reveal polymers and humectants and a warning about cancer, so i went to the us patent office and looked up *Rohm and Haas'*s ink patent (*7,074,842*) to see what these mystery ingredients were. Below is what i found.
> 
> It is interesting that vinyl chloride is on the list. It may mean nothing, but do DTG makers specifically state that it is PVC free?
> 
> ...


That's what I mean when the manufacturers of plastisol are only taking out the phthalates, which the huge companies who are saying they are going green with PVC free tags on them.

It's a laugh, because there are still bad chemicals in them.

The advice for using plastisol is to wear gloves.

Plastisol is toxic.

And i looked up the Digital inks and they also have a hazmet rating of "one" although i didn't get the chemicals.

I have a friend who has been screen printing with plastisol for many years. He is dying. And he's a young ,man.

I think screenprinters should start going green........forget having special dyes which only work on black shirts.

Want to live?

Then start thinking green.

If you can't eat it, don't use it.

Consumers are going to choose companies to do biz with who are green over those who are not.

It's just a matter of time.

If you are smart, you will look ahead for this trend.


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## Artwear By Alida (Oct 24, 2007)

ImageIt said:


> Out of curiosity, i looked up the MSDS to reveal polymers and humectants and a warning about cancer, so i went to the us patent office and looked up *Rohm and Haas'*s ink patent (*7,074,842*) to see what these mystery ingredients were. Below is what i found.
> 
> It is interesting that vinyl chloride is on the list. It may mean nothing, but do DTG makers specifically state that it is PVC free?
> 
> ...


That's what I mean when the manufacturers of plastisol are only taking out the phthalates, which the huge companies who are saying they are going green with PVC free tags on them.

It's a laugh, because there are still bad chemicals in them.

The advice for using plastisol is to wear gloves.

Plastisol is toxic.

And i looked up the Digital inks and they also have a hazmet rating of "one" although i didn't get the chemicals.

I have a friend who has been screen printing with plastisol for many years. He is dying. And he's a young ,man.

I think screenprinters should start going green........forget having special dyes which only work on black shirts.

Want to live?

Then start thinking green.

If you can't eat it, don't use it.

Consumers are going to choose companies to do biz with who are green over those who are not.

It's just a matter of time.

If you are smart, you will look ahead for this trend.


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## Artwear By Alida (Oct 24, 2007)

*Re: I'm about to buy....opinions*



Matto said:


> Hey I do custom graphics on vehicles and you are comparing apples to oranges when it comes to auto paint and plastisol ink. Fiberglass? man your out in left field. I would wash my hands with plastisol ink and not worry a bit.
> You remind me of a friend of mine who swears elmers glue is toxic and should be removed from all schools.
> I have yet to hear about( does not mean it didnt happen.) A screen printer working with plastisol inks for decades dying from exposure to them. Maybe you are talking about sign inks which happen to be solvent based. plastisol is a pvc base and gives off negligable VOCs when cured.


Respectfully, You and your employees should be wearing safety masks and gloves according to the warnings about plastisol.

But hey, it's your choice...no offence intended. It's your lungs.


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## mk162 (Sep 24, 2007)

> That's what I mean when the manufacturers of plastisol are only taking out the phthalates, which the huge companies who are saying they are going green with PVC free tags on them.
> 
> It's a laugh, because there are still bad chemicals in them.
> 
> ...


OMG!! Wear gloves? I've been around people printing for over 20 years, no health problems. OSHA would have a fit when they walked in here if inks are as toxic as you say. I think there are much more educated people with more money for research that probably have a better idea of how toxic our inks are.

Now, saying that, if there is a good ink that has no PVC or pthalates in them, I might use them. It really depends on ROI. Very few of my customers care if we use "green" inks. But, if they cure at a lower temp and they cost roughly the same, then it would save me money by turning down the ol' oven.


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## staned (Feb 25, 2007)

it's the lint dust off the tee-shirts thats the danger not the ink. but i'm going to start using green inks because you can make money off the tree hugging preius drivers who don't mind paying way too much to kill the guilt of being a human, nature's worst enemy. there is lots of green in being green. thirty years ago i installed solar systems, cashed in on that eco movement too.


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## SpotMatrix (Nov 10, 2007)

staned said:


> it's the lint dust off the tee-shirts thats the danger not the ink. but i'm going to start using green inks because you can make money off the tree hugging preius drivers who don't mind paying way too much to kill the guilt of being a human, nature's worst enemy. there is lots of green in being green. thirty years ago i installed solar systems, cashed in on that eco movement too. sounds like somebody reads to many of al gore's books, thats ok if you like fiction. stan


Why not cash in on the trend? The guys who sold CB's back in the day made loads of cash until that trend petered out then they got into VCR's. They are still selling electronics just the products have changed.

Using any product safer than the one your using can only help even if it may only be the lesser of two evils. Printing by its very nature is not ecologically friendly. It doesn't mean we can't try and do things Eco-safer. Do it where practical and promote yourself as enviromentally conscious ("The customer's product dictates the method we use").


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## tpitman (Jul 30, 2007)

Artwear By Alida said:


> One person can do almost everything with the DTG.
> 
> A good graphic artist, the printing, the drying and the delivering depending on the amount of your business.


Many of us are doing that now with screenprinting. Take a look at Neato's (Philip's) website. Not too shabby, I'd say.


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## IncredibleTees (Sep 23, 2007)

I know this is pretty long, but PLEASE READ on. I need your HELP!!!

Hi, I'm pretty new to screen printing. I have been looking for someone with some real information on the toxins that plastisol may release. My MSDS says it contains vinyl chloride monomer which is a very toxic gas. In researching, I've found that plastisol is basically polyvinyl chloride particals mixed with plasticixers and other stuff. When cured at 300+ degrees the toxic vinyl chloride gas is released. Since it is a no-odor gas, only at 3000ppm (well above the acceptable standard of 1ppm/8 hour) and above can you begin to smell it - a sweet smell. On health and government websites, it is listed as being in the top 10% of the most toxic chemicals known. It is a class A human carcinogen. 

Here is my personal story: 

I was exposed for about 4 hours doing a job using a flash dryer to do my curing back in the middle of December 2008. I remember smelling the same sweet smell. Then being light headed. By the end of the job, I was coughing pretty bad. Mucus coughed up from my throat was spotted with blood right after I finished, but did not re-occur. I had throat irritations, coughing, congestion for about 5 days during that first episode. Since then, the tip of my tongue has been sort of numb and tingly almost all the time like having a hot coffee burn. Also, I have been experiencing vertigo when I lay down and get up.

In January, I upgraded to a used 11 X 3 foot national conveyor dryer. I didn't know about the exhaust fan not working well so I ended becoming exposed to the plastisol fumes for about 5 hours this last time. The attached duct lead outside above my side door but I left my door open for better circulation of fresh air. This allowed any gases going out the duct to just come back inside. This time I had a fan blowing from the floor up and the shop door was half open. But vinyl chloride is heavier than air so the fan from the floor was just circulating it up at me. I must have used up about a pint of ink on this job. 

Towards the middle of the job, I could begin to smell the same sweet smell again. By the end of the job, I was pretty dizzy, coughing badly and fatiqued. At the time I thought I was just tired. Again I coughed up mucus that was pink. All these are symptoms of exposure to high levels of vinyl chloride.

The following two days, I was pretty fatigued and just out of it. That was when it really concerned me to do the research. 

I was sharing my story to a close friend of mine who's father-in-law had been screen printing for over 20 years. The father-in-law is now have cardiac problems (could be due to other things but one might never know). The mother-in-law is always dizzy and light headed. His wife who worked with her parents folding the shirts as they came out of the dryer has had episodes of black-outs. She remembers that same sweet smell and feeling dizzy even in a well ventilated shop. 

Friday, I went into the ER for exposure and had some tests run. I was tested for kidney, liver, respiratory, and cardiac problems. All came back within acceptable limits. I was told by the doctor that vinyl chloride monomer (just another name for the same stuff) is known to be a serious toxin that has been shown to cause CNS, liver, lung, and kidney disease and damage. I am continueing to follow up with my doctor to make sure that over the next couple of weeks nothing else developes. I'll keep posted if anything developes.

Most of the research that I found had to do with direct PVC production and lawsuits with major companies. I am assuming that there is a lack of documented cases and research regarding plastisol using screen printers because the majority of us are individual self-employed business owners with no one else to sue or blame but ourselves. If we die from exposure, there is no one investigates it, thus no documentation. Prolonged medium level exposures to vinyl chloride causes liver damage and cancer. Several cases of acute overexposure to high levels (such that exists during equipment malfunctions) have been fatal. Autopsy on these deaths revealed kidney damage, cardiac arrest do to the toxic attack on the CNS, and lung's being filled with mucus. 

The MSDS does not reveal much except "in the case of inhalation, remove to fresh air." Infact, one of my white ink label read: "This product does not contains any know chemicals that causes cancer by the state of California" . . . then in the chemicals listing it lists vinyl chloride and polyvinyl chloride which every government or health website that had information about VC's that I have looked has listed it as a Group A carcinogen. 

Someone on this post (I hope was joking) talked about eating this stuff - email me & I can send you my research folder. 

Sorry, I don't mean to scare anyone. In fact I am pretty worried myself. Maybe someone out there might have had a similar experience. I would really love to hear from Richard Reaves since you seem to be the expert here. What is the content of the gases released when plastisol is cured.


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## IncredibleTees (Sep 23, 2007)

*Re: I am an expert*

Hi Richard, can you read my post and send me a reply. You seem to be the expert here.


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## gmille39 (Oct 18, 2006)

*Re: I'm about to buy....opinions*



Artwear By Alida said:


> If you are a true artist and not just in it for commercial business, you want your shirts to last for 20 years. My daughter still wears a t-shirt she bought in grade school and she is 22.
> 
> If you are not in it for the art, and just the business, then do what you like.
> 
> ...


Your daughter can fit in a shirt she bought in grade school?


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## gmille39 (Oct 18, 2006)

*Re: I'm about to buy....opinions*



Artwear By Alida said:


> I am not going to get into a debate about non-toxic and "green" graphic design here....the old ways with the dark rooms where horribly toxic.
> 
> I am just saying, as artists, we should lead the way in non-toxic industrial practices....I mean Van Gogh died from the lead in his paint and licking his brushes...
> 
> ...


I read that Van Gogh shot himself in the chest after his brother became ill.


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## tpitman (Jul 30, 2007)

*Re: I'm about to buy....opinions*



gmille39 said:


> I read that Van Gogh shot himself in the chest after his brother became ill.


Actually, I believe it was in the stomach. I read that he stepped behind a pile of manure, shot himself, then went home, smoked his pipe for 2 or 3 days, and died. I don't know if it had anything really to do with his brother. I think he had just had enough.

Regarding the toxicity of plastisol fumes, I don't run my dryer so hot that the shirts smoke (and even that isn't necessarily plastisol). I usually run a fan pointed outside one window, and have another window diagonally across and in back of me open for cross-ventilation. The only dizziness I experience is from the beer I've been known to swill down towards the end of the print job (I print at night). The guy who said he'd eat the stuff was kidding, but trying to make a point that handling plastisol isn't exactly like handling plutonium. I think that with reasonable cleanliness and some ventilation, you're probably safe. Use rubber gloves when wiping out screen frames with press wash, and when reclaiming screens. Is there a possibility that is is something else you're using that's causing the taste in your mouth and the dizziness?


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## Susie (Oct 19, 2007)

Hi everyone,

I was wondering about the toxicity of printing methods too.

What about when people dispose of their garments? PVC breaks down into highly toxic components. Maybe we need to direct our thoughts to the future too? Eventually all this ends up in the landfill and it doesn't just magically disappear.

You can't sell garments with PVC aimed at children in Europe - it's already banned. North America is always so slow keeping up with the rest of the world. Phthalates are also banned in Europe in cosmetics, perfumes, etc. It is pretty well established that these toxins are harmful. 

I have kids in the house where I print and I do worry about vapours. I do dye-subbing. I was trying to find out how toxic that is.

As far as odours from printing processes - if you sense an odour, something is going straight into your lungs the question is - what is it?

Interesting thread
Susie


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## Susie (Oct 19, 2007)

Hey guys,

I just found this link for the toxicity of artainium inks. Maybe sublimation would be more agreeable to Alida.

http://www.lawsonsp.com/msds/Artainium/ArtainiumInkMSDS.pdf

That's promising. Now I wonder about all that teflon cooking on the heatpress! And about the polyester fabric. Ughh...too much to think about!


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## Susie (Oct 19, 2007)

You can buy 100% recycled polyester fabric made from plastic bottles. And it can be continually recycled. 
Wow, I'm rattling on here aren't I? Personally, I'd love to put all those plastic bottles to work - wouldn't you?


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## rwshirts (Dec 5, 2007)

If you search this forum, you'll find that water-based inks are actually more toxic in certain ways. As for cracking, it's all in how the consumer washes and drys the apparel. No, you shouldn't use chlorine bleach and hot water to wash your shirts, and you don't dry them on very hot in the dryer! I had a customer bring back a shirt we printed after one wash.....it was cracked, and it had ink WORN off the shirt, as in "stuck in the dryer drum" wear. She claimed that she washed it in cold, and dryer it on warm setting......sure she did. I regularly take my practice shirts home and intentionally abuse them in the washer, just to see how they hold up.

Plastisol will be my main ink, untill the DTG's are better proven as in quantity, and reliability.


RW


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