# Geneva Capital Leasing (good or bad)



## jtannerc

I just recently starting thinking I might like to add some equipment to grow my biz a little.
So naturally emails magically show up about financing and leasing equipment. One of them is from Geneva Capital (Geneva Capital Equipment Financing Solutions). I was wondering if many of you know of them, use them and or approve of them? Or is there a better lender/leasing company out there that I might have better luck with?

- james


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## splathead

If you compare lease terms to credit card terms, you will find the payments and interest almost identical. Difference is you own the equipment using your credit card.

There may be tax advantages to leasing vs buying? Otherwise, just use your credit card.


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## joeshaul

Think I've seen them at various trade shows for a few years now (ISA/SGIA/ARA/etc). Haven't bit the bullet and had them lease anything to me yet though (always use my credit cards/savings like splathead/joe). Curious if anyone has any first hand experience though, as CC's can sometimes rake you through the coals interest wise. 

I always figure it's one of those cases of, most of the people applying for the lease probably can't get covered because of the economic times and credit situation.


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## Big Frog

Credit card's definitely the way to go right now. It's tough to get the money at reasonable terms. I have dealt with Geneva, Omni and Beacon on DTG equipment. Omni is great because the COO used to be with Brother International in the Industrial Products Division as a Director or VP which the DTG products fall under.


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## IYFGraphics

joeshaul said:


> Curious if anyone has any first hand experience though, as CC's can sometimes rake you through the coals interest wise.


We bought our DTG last year with a CC, great deal since it was .9% interest for a year on the purchase which has worked out great, the other thing about using a CC is you have a recourse if there are problems, I won't go into the details but the first vendor we were going to purchase from kept giving us the runaround and missed several ship dates, we had to do a charge back to get shed of the deal. That would be hard to do with a lease company.

Hope this helps.


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## out da box

I went with Geneva. All I can say is they took a chance on me and they are making money and I have equipment that I would not have been able to otherwise afford. Pick your poison.


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## Twanabee

The good thing about using a leasing co. is that they own the equipment until you finish paying for it. (the 1 buck buy-out). You can walk away anytime and they take the equipment. May effect your credit but the CC company does not give a darn, they want their money even if you go belly up.


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## jtannerc

joeshaul said:


> I always figure it's one of those cases of, most of the people applying for the lease probably can't get covered because of the economic times and credit situation.


This is pretty much the situation.

I have credit, and its good too, but limits got lowered which made my debt to credit ratio look really bad.

Thanks all for the names of the other leasing companies. I am trying to scope out the best plan and rates...


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## TshirtGuru

I'm leasing an auto from geneva and they have been a good company to work with. Nothing bad I can say about them. I bought used equipment once with beacon where a company went bankrupt and buying used equipment that beacon own was a pain. When I asked beacon for a lease on an auto they were going to charge me $150 more then geneva. They also look at your business history, it's good to have at least 3 years in business. Unless it's a small purchase that you can pay off at any time, I wouldn't use a cc. Cc companies can raise your interest and terms at any time. Leasing gives you tax advantages and fixed rates. 

Like out da box said, they are making money on me but I couldn't do what I do now without the auto.


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## thutch15

Twanabee said:


> The good thing about using a leasing co. is that they own the equipment until you finish paying for it. (the 1 buck buy-out). You can walk away anytime and they take the equipment. May effect your credit but the CC company does not give a darn, they want their money even if you go belly up.


This would be the process for anyone that is owed money. A leasing company is not going to take the item and just be happy with it. They are going to sell the item for dirt cheap and come after you for the difference. No different then a loan.

The benefit of a lease is that it is an EXPENSE. So every month your journal entry would be one that directly hits the books. 

Where a loan would require you to depreciate the item and spread out the expense over a few years. HOWEVER you can currently do a Section 179 deduction on you taxes and take the FULL hit the first year (if you did not lease). This can be huge due to the "time value of money"...for example I would much rather you give me $10 today then $10 in one month. That is the benefit over depreciating an expense. blaa blaa blaa...I know.

The BEST option would be to save you $$ and pay cash...not only should you be able to get a better deal normally by flashing cash, using the section 179 deduction, but also borrowing money is not a good business model. RISK is not calculated in most payback models!


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## replicachicago

My rant: I was totally ready to get on this thread and be Geneva's number one cheerleader since they did loan us a good chunk to get our M&R last year. After a year of paying on time, I thought I'd approach them for a very badly needed Mac Pro. I even mentioned I could slap down almost 25% or send some financial reports (to show incoming A/R, etc). They said they normally don't loan for soft items but checked into it and were interested, pending credit review (which is in the *exact* same position as it was when we first started with them). They just denied the opportunity to make more money off of me. Not happy with Geneva Capital and their whole spiel about "building a relationship" that got us in the door during the NBM show. Lame.


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## zz75

splathead said:


> If you compare lease terms to credit card terms, you will find the payments and interest almost identical. Difference is you own the equipment using your credit card.
> 
> There may be tax advantages to leasing vs buying? Otherwise, just use your credit card.


I have a lease with Geneva and would NEVER use them again. The people treat you horribly!!! I also have a lease with Beacon and they treat everyone nicely. (have had about four other leases with them in the past 20 years. Highly DO NOT recommend Geneva.....two thumbs down


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## TshirtGuru

zz75 said:


> I have a lease with Geneva and would NEVER use them again. The people treat you horribly!!! I also have a lease with Beacon and they treat everyone nicely. (have had about four other leases with them in the past 20 years. Highly DO NOT recommend Geneva.....two thumbs down


I know that Geneva and beacon are competitors but this being your first post it seems a little suspicious. Anyway to me it's the other way around, beacon is horrible. They took 4 days to return my calls when I was asking for a lease on auto. I had to speak to the main leasing agent through his assistant. Anyway genevas agent returned all my calls and emails within 5 minutes and he was on top of things. I also bought some equipment from Geneva with cash before and it was a nightmare.


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## ineedtshirts

Bad, bad, bad. They do not report your payment or excellent payment history to the credit bureaus.


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## JAEB

I have a few pieces of euipment leased. One with Geneva there fine just costly like a typical credit card company the charge for the risk involved and it makes them a ton of money when things go well. Shop shop shop every lender leaser you can. Save thousands in the end. I love cash if it doen't take up all your running capital and finding deals on used equipment can save you from having to borrow if you can keep all the repairs in house. Good luck all


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## Press Doctor

Geneva Capital is our main leasing company that we work with on new equipment sales. Andrew and the rest of the staff are a great group of people and will definitely take care of you the best you can. Don't be afraid to give them a call and talk to them.


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## HM-1 Addict

tagged.....


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## big frank sports

I got my leasing and a better deal from my bank. Went through the business section and secured the lease with a $1 buy at the end. The difference between the leasing company and the bank was: $300 a month!

Check out your bank and see what they can do for you.

Frank


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## Homejames1

I just cancelled a deal going through them. They wanted me to carry an additional $1,000 in insurance on a BN-20 and also wanted to be named on a one-half million dollar general liability policy. (see section 8 of their lease agreement). I have no problem with insuring the equipment but not on these terms which I was told could not be changed

And the person I was working with offered me one choice for lease terms until I started questioning him and found another one that was about $90 less a month (the one Roland advertises on their website).

I would be cautious with them


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## scuba_steve2699

My wife and I have used ACG for our equipment financing on many pieces of equipment and they have done VERY good by us. Not only did they treat us as individuals and really looked at the situtaion we were in, but they have been flexible in plans and options every time. I do think that many of the companies are similar but it boils down to the person you deal with also. Our guy has been Chris Pfriem at ACG. Cannot recommend him enough!


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## amazing2003

RUN from Geneva Capital if you see them !!! Long story short they stuck us with "renting" our piece of equipment for 2 months after the last payment was auto withdrawn from our checking account. the total was close to $1000 dollars ! Even though i called several times to ask when my final payment was due and what the payoff would be. The excuse was given... I had to notify them in writing that i wanted to make my final payoff and because i did not they continued to take the payment from my checking as a "rent" payment. However i was never told this on the phone when asking for a payoff date.
Shame on me for not remembering the fine details 3 years after signing my lease agreement. I feel like this is a dirty business practice and will NEVER recommend them. I have another lease from another company that just expired and I received a letter today saying... thank you your lease has been paid in full and terminated in the system. No hidden letters or "rent" bull crap. GENEVA Capital in Minnesota is total garbage period. RUN from Geneva Capital if you see them !!!


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## jimsplace

how many have leased thru Geneva Capital with the understanding it was a 1 dollar buy out at the end of the lease, just to find that ended up not being true?


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## bpfohler

scuba_steve2699 said:


> My wife and I have used ACG for our equipment financing on many pieces of equipment and they have done VERY good by us. Not only did they treat us as individuals and really looked at the situtaion we were in, but they have been flexible in plans and options every time. I do think that many of the companies are similar but it boils down to the person you deal with also. Our guy has been Chris Pfriem at ACG. Cannot recommend him enough!


 We also used Chris at ACG. Great guy to work with.


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## mes2007

I would not recommend Geneva Capital. I leased a Barudan embroidery machine through them and in my experience they have bad customer service. They were not very patient nor friendly and each time I called, they acted like I was bothering them or they were doing me a favor by speaking with me. The have an advantage because they show up to all the trade shows and offer deals that seem good at the time because you are in the moment buying equipment to start or grow your business, but then when once they have you in a contract, they treat you like crap. 

Shop around for another company prior to going to a trade show or in general, so then when you find that right equipment, you won't feel stuck to go with such a poorly customer focused company, aka Geneva Capital...


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## dkauzlaric

I honestly don't understand some of the comments. If you weren't sure what the terms and conditions are then that is your fault, not Geneva's or other leasing companies. 

I say this because I just purchased $21,132 worth of equipment through Ryonet and Stahls using Geneva. I bought a complete screen printing setup from Ryonet and a Roland BN20 through Stahls.

The experience has been great and easy to work with. The terms were straight forward and I had options for my payment date, how long the lease is, and if I wanted a $1 buyout or 10% buyout. I chose the 10% buyout because I wanted to write off the monthly lease payment every month instead of taking the $21k write off this year ($1 buyout option). 

They gave me three payment date options to choose from as well (I took the date that made the most sense for cashflow) and then that was it.

The insurance they make you get is not that bad. I went through the company they partner with and I believe the cost was $33 / mo to cover my total lease of $21,000+ in equipment so not bad at all to be honest. 

I end up paying $28,000 on a $21,000 lease when you factor in the payments over 5 years and the interest. Honestly very doable and worth it. I am starting a brand new business for a payment around $450 / mo. My car runs me $425 / mo so very worth it in my opinion if you don't have 20k lying around in the bank for extra business ventures 

If you factor in the tax benefits you really don't pay that much in interest and if you bought the equipment outright with cash you wont get the same tax benefits.

Just my 2 cents.


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## DBurke

Last year we paid cash for equipment and it's my understanding that we can't just write it all off in one year on our taxes. It seems with a lease you can at least write off all the payments you made..is this correct? Last year was the first year I spent over 10k in cash on equipment and haven't done taxes yet. So is it better to pay cash or lease for tax deduction?


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## best26102

I would try Adia Capital... great people to work with


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## socalink

I set up a lease agreement with Geneva back in January 2013. I wanted to put down $15,000 on an M&R Diamondback XL valued at the time, $40,100. I would need roughly $25,000 in financing. That $15,000 I wanted to put down quickly became $17,149.48. Why? I had to cover their "Doc Fees" of $295, "security deposit" of $611.28, and $1200 went towards an "advanced payment". My paperwork was written up as 1 payment of $15,000, and 60 payments of $566. Fast forward a few months, while I am waiting for my press to arrive. My very first lease invoice came in the mail. It was for a cool $425.46 due at the end of May. The $425.46 payment was, as they said a "pro-rated" payment. I did not think anything of it, mainly because I was so excited about my new press. Soon after the press was set up, I was told I needed to now buy insurance for the press with their requested specialized policy terms. I soon find out, that the only insurance company who offers these specialized policy terms is their own in-house insurance agency. I am now forced to pay them their insurance fees, with no option to shop around for a better deal. My monthly payment goes from the advertised $566 a month to now $680 a month, due to all the added taxes and insurance. A total of $114 more per month, then originally advertised. I suck it up, and just deal with the more expensive rate. I continue making payments on the press without any issues. Some months I even over pay by sending in checks around $1000.
Now comes the fun part. It is now July 2017. Thinking to myself my lease is almost paid off, it’s time to start looking at those 12 color presses I have been drooling over for the past few years. I should call Geneva Capital and get a payoff amount, hopefully pay off this press, and start working on a new deal for a new press. 
I had originally given Geneva Capital a $17,149.48 check back in January 2013, and assumed my final lease payment should be January 2018, which is only 5 months away. I thought surely my pay off amount would be right around $6000 ($566 x 5 = $2830, + the 10% buy out of $4010 – my extra payments of roughly $1100 = $5,740). I called Geneva Capital for a payoff amount, on my now 4.5 year old press, and was told I would receive an email stating the payoff amount. To my surprise my payoff amount was listed at $9,448.45. I emailed back and asked for some help explaining the price, because my math just did not add up. Well, it turns out my “advanced payment” of $1200, and “pro-rated” payment of $425.46, do not actually count towards the lease payments. Nowhere in the master lease agreement does it say anything about “advanced” or “pro-rated” payments not counting towards the lease payments. These where just added payments that Geneva forced me to pay for no other reason than to stuff their pockets, knowing there was absolutely nothing I could do about it. The extra money I paid every month ($1,100), was in an “unapplied account”, and not listed on my “Payoff Breakdown”. To top it off, the 5 payments I thought I had left, now magically turned into 11 more payments. So not only did my “advanced payment” of $1200, and “pro-rated” payment of $425.46 not count against my lease payments pertaining to the first months of my lease, but they added on 6 more payments of $566. To date, I have sent these con-artists close to $51,000 and now they want me to pay another $9200 on top of that, to buy out my lease. For those of you still reading this, that would be right around $60,000 on a $40,000 press. Let me remind you, I only originally needed $25,000 in financing. 
These people are thieves, crooks and con-artists. Stay away. Stay far, far away. You are better off using the credit cards in your pocket then dealing with these people. 
If these crooks reach out to me and fix this issue, I will update this post.


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## locnar

My wife and I initiated financing dtg equipment and spoke with David Boike at Geneva Capital, LLC, he said and I quote “we don’t do startup companies and only work with large million dollar commercial accounts,” he was blatantly insulting and rude to my wife.

We checked in with Chris at ACG and we are getting some new dtg equipment through them, so far so good.


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## gojanetlynn

If you lease from Geneva Capital BEWARE. They are slimy and shady. Sure, it is 'all in the lease agreement'. One of their games is the 'partial payment' - they don't run the lease from the date you start it. They let you pick the day - then they charge you a prorated amount that doesn't count toward your lease payment. It is just a gift to them. They also like to play the 'bill you for insurance' game so they make a pretty penny on that. 

You are SO much ahead to just get a loan from your bank. Unless you enjoy being taken advantage of and being treated like you are stupid.


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## gojanetlynn

I am not as bad off as you - but I am facing similar. That 'pro rated' payment is nothing but a gift to them. I should be able to pay them the difference in the 'pro rated' amount and the regular payment amount to make it a payment. I am hopping mad.


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## gojanetlynn

socalink said:


> I set up a lease agreement with Geneva back in January 2013. I wanted to put down $15,000 on an M&R Diamondback XL valued at the time, $40,100. I would need roughly $25,000 in financing. That $15,000 I wanted to put down quickly became $17,149.48. Why? I had to cover their "Doc Fees" of $295, "security deposit" of $611.28, and $1200 went towards an "advanced payment". My paperwork was written up as 1 payment of $15,000, and 60 payments of $566. Fast forward a few months, while I am waiting for my press to arrive. My very first lease invoice came in the mail. It was for a cool $425.46 due at the end of May. The $425.46 payment was, as they said a "pro-rated" payment. I did not think anything of it, mainly because I was so excited about my new press. Soon after the press was set up, I was told I needed to now buy insurance for the press with their requested specialized policy terms. I soon find out, that the only insurance company who offers these specialized policy terms is their own in-house insurance agency. I am now forced to pay them their insurance fees, with no option to shop around for a better deal. My monthly payment goes from the advertised $566 a month to now $680 a month, due to all the added taxes and insurance. A total of $114 more per month, then originally advertised. I suck it up, and just deal with the more expensive rate. I continue making payments on the press without any issues. Some months I even over pay by sending in checks around $1000.
> Now comes the fun part. It is now July 2017. Thinking to myself my lease is almost paid off, it’s time to start looking at those 12 color presses I have been drooling over for the past few years. I should call Geneva Capital and get a payoff amount, hopefully pay off this press, and start working on a new deal for a new press.
> I had originally given Geneva Capital a $17,149.48 check back in January 2013, and assumed my final lease payment should be January 2018, which is only 5 months away. I thought surely my pay off amount would be right around $6000 ($566 x 5 = $2830, + the 10% buy out of $4010 – my extra payments of roughly $1100 = $5,740). I called Geneva Capital for a payoff amount, on my now 4.5 year old press, and was told I would receive an email stating the payoff amount. To my surprise my payoff amount was listed at $9,448.45. I emailed back and asked for some help explaining the price, because my math just did not add up. Well, it turns out my “advanced payment” of $1200, and “pro-rated” payment of $425.46, do not actually count towards the lease payments. Nowhere in the master lease agreement does it say anything about “advanced” or “pro-rated” payments not counting towards the lease payments. These where just added payments that Geneva forced me to pay for no other reason than to stuff their pockets, knowing there was absolutely nothing I could do about it. The extra money I paid every month ($1,100), was in an “unapplied account”, and not listed on my “Payoff Breakdown”. To top it off, the 5 payments I thought I had left, now magically turned into 11 more payments. So not only did my “advanced payment” of $1200, and “pro-rated” payment of $425.46 not count against my lease payments pertaining to the first months of my lease, but they added on 6 more payments of $566. To date, I have sent these con-artists close to $51,000 and now they want me to pay another $9200 on top of that, to buy out my lease. For those of you still reading this, that would be right around $60,000 on a $40,000 press. Let me remind you, I only originally needed $25,000 in financing.
> These people are thieves, crooks and con-artists. Stay away. Stay far, far away. You are better off using the credit cards in your pocket then dealing with these people.
> If these crooks reach out to me and fix this issue, I will update this post.


I am not as bad off as you - but I am facing similar. That 'pro rated' payment is nothing but a gift to them. I should be able to pay them the difference in the 'pro rated' amount and the regular payment amount to make it a payment. I am hopping mad.


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## gojanetlynn

socalink said:


> I set up a lease agreement with Geneva back in January 2013. I wanted to put down $15,000 on an M&R Diamondback XL valued at the time, $40,100. I would need roughly $25,000 in financing. That $15,000 I wanted to put down quickly became $17,149.48. Why? I had to cover their "Doc Fees" of $295, "security deposit" of $611.28, and $1200 went towards an "advanced payment". My paperwork was written up as 1 payment of $15,000, and 60 payments of $566. Fast forward a few months, while I am waiting for my press to arrive. My very first lease invoice came in the mail. It was for a cool $425.46 due at the end of May. The $425.46 payment was, as they said a "pro-rated" payment. I did not think anything of it, mainly because I was so excited about my new press. Soon after the press was set up, I was told I needed to now buy insurance for the press with their requested specialized policy terms. I soon find out, that the only insurance company who offers these specialized policy terms is their own in-house insurance agency. I am now forced to pay them their insurance fees, with no option to shop around for a better deal. My monthly payment goes from the advertised $566 a month to now $680 a month, due to all the added taxes and insurance. A total of $114 more per month, then originally advertised. I suck it up, and just deal with the more expensive rate. I continue making payments on the press without any issues. Some months I even over pay by sending in checks around $1000.
> Now comes the fun part. It is now July 2017. Thinking to myself my lease is almost paid off, it’s time to start looking at those 12 color presses I have been drooling over for the past few years. I should call Geneva Capital and get a payoff amount, hopefully pay off this press, and start working on a new deal for a new press.
> I had originally given Geneva Capital a $17,149.48 check back in January 2013, and assumed my final lease payment should be January 2018, which is only 5 months away. I thought surely my pay off amount would be right around $6000 ($566 x 5 = $2830, + the 10% buy out of $4010 – my extra payments of roughly $1100 = $5,740). I called Geneva Capital for a payoff amount, on my now 4.5 year old press, and was told I would receive an email stating the payoff amount. To my surprise my payoff amount was listed at $9,448.45. I emailed back and asked for some help explaining the price, because my math just did not add up. Well, it turns out my “advanced payment” of $1200, and “pro-rated” payment of $425.46, do not actually count towards the lease payments. Nowhere in the master lease agreement does it say anything about “advanced” or “pro-rated” payments not counting towards the lease payments. These where just added payments that Geneva forced me to pay for no other reason than to stuff their pockets, knowing there was absolutely nothing I could do about it. The extra money I paid every month ($1,100), was in an “unapplied account”, and not listed on my “Payoff Breakdown”. To top it off, the 5 payments I thought I had left, now magically turned into 11 more payments. So not only did my “advanced payment” of $1200, and “pro-rated” payment of $425.46 not count against my lease payments pertaining to the first months of my lease, but they added on 6 more payments of $566. To date, I have sent these con-artists close to $51,000 and now they want me to pay another $9200 on top of that, to buy out my lease. For those of you still reading this, that would be right around $60,000 on a $40,000 press. Let me remind you, I only originally needed $25,000 in financing.
> These people are thieves, crooks and con-artists. Stay away. Stay far, far away. You are better off using the credit cards in your pocket then dealing with these people.
> If these crooks reach out to me and fix this issue, I will update this post.


I am not as bad off as you - but I am facing similar. That 'pro rated' payment is nothing but a gift to them. I should be able to pay them the difference in the 'pro rated' amount and the regular payment amount to make it a payment. I am hopping mad.


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## fidelmartin

Credit card's absolutely good way. you will see the amount almost exact. The satisfying thing about using a leasing co. is that they own until you complete paying for it


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## JimmyFromMass

I've leased several items via Geneva Capital. I can't compare them as they are the only company I've leased with. I will say they were prompt in answering my questions at the beginning of the leasing process as well as at a recent buyout. When I was researching buying my Roland LEF-20 UV printer, about a $20k purchase, the numbers worked out better with a 4-year lease vs. paying with a credit card at 9%. The tax deduction was also beneficial (providing you file a long form and itemize your deductions.) 

Jimmy


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## JimmyFromMass

locnar said:


> My wife and I initiated financing dtg equipment and spoke with David Boike at Geneva Capital, LLC, he said and I quote “we don’t do startup companies and only work with large million dollar commercial accounts,”


My very first equipment lease was with Geneva. My sales at the time were $0. My business didn't start until the machine arrived!

Jimmy


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## BDave

zz75 said:


> I have a lease with Geneva and would NEVER use them again. The people treat you horribly!!! I also have a lease with Beacon and they treat everyone nicely. (have had about four other leases with them in the past 20 years. Highly DO NOT recommend Geneva.....two thumbs down


Strange i have 3 leases with geneva no problems (and 2 with beacons all smoooth) - Not sure why your case was different??


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## earlybird

I have used them and credit "manager" Farah Tabery has been horrid to work with. They attach insurance to your payments and it's expensive. They will tell you that you get can your own insurance so I got a policy written out to their specifications. My provider sent them the policy info and they still gave me the runaround, as well as charged me insurance and then late fees for that insurance. After threatening them to notify the attorney general, they relented, but it was a huge PIA. They will cheat you if you give them a chance. I would go elsewhere.


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