# can you print the sublimation process on 100% cotton tees?



## SMB Printing

Hello all, I was at the ISS show in Long Beach this last weekend and I was looking at the sublimation process. This is something I have been keeping my eye on so I had a few questions for one of the guy doing the demonstrations. He didnt seem to be the most outgoing person and frankly I felt I was being a pest after asking 2 questions. So I have 2 more questions if anyone could help me out. 1) can I print sublimation on 100% cotton without the ink fading? The guy at the show said no but I could swear that I have seen this process printed on 100% cotton tees. 2) I have an epson 7600 that runs ultrachrome ink. Would I be able to print on the sublimation material with this printer if I change out the inks that are necessary?


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## EnMartian

You cannot do sublimation on 100% cotton. Sublimation must be done on 100% polyester for the best results. You can use ChromaBlast ink on 100% cotton shirts. It is not exactly the same process as sublimation, but it is very similar, and can be done with special transfer paper and a heat press.

As to changing out the inks, what I've always been told is that changing out inks is generally not a good idea. Even if you run a large number of cleanings you can't be absolutely sure that the printer is entirely clean. In most cases, you're better off starting with a new printer.


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## SMB Printing

Thank you for your help, I will check out the site. Is there a printer you would recommend?


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## Rodney

> 1) can I print sublimation on 100% cotton without the ink fading? The guy at the show said no but I could swear that I have seen this process printed on 100% cotton tees.


As Kristine said, sublimation can't go on 100% cotton t-shirts.

However, you can do inkjet or laser heat transfers on 100% cotton t-shirts. So it may have been an inkjet or laser transfer that you saw on a 100% cotton t-shirt.

You can read more about inkjet transfers and printers that you can use here: Heat Press and Heat Transfers - T-Shirt Forums


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## EnMartian

SMB Printing said:


> Thank you for your help, I will check out the site. Is there a printer you would recommend?


Sawgrass has two forumulations of ChromaBlast Ink. There's regular ChromaBlast, which works in Epson printers, and just recently they developed ChromaBlast-R, which works in the Ricoh GX7000. Our tendency is to recommend the Ricoh printers.


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## red514

Rodney said:


> As Kristine said, sublimation can't go on 100% cotton t-shirts.
> 
> However, you can do inkjet or laser heat transfers on 100% cotton t-shirts. So it may have been an inkjet or laser transfer that you saw on a 100% cotton t-shirt.
> 
> You can read more about inkjet transfers and printers that you can use here: Heat Press and Heat Transfers - T-Shirt Forums


I'm under the impression that the sublimation process is more costly then a heat transfer, is this true? 

I'm asking because i've argued with several of our sourcing agents in regards to the manufacturer stating they are doing sublimation but the garment is 100% cotton. I'm telling them it's just a heat transfer (only white ground garments) and not sublimation. The cost would be cheaper for a heat transfer as opposed to sublimation, no?


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## red514

EnMartian said:


> Sawgrass has two forumulations of ChromaBlast Ink. There's regular ChromaBlast, which works in Epson printers, and just recently they developed ChromaBlast-R, which works in the Ricoh GX7000. Our tendency is to recommend the Ricoh printers.


I'm new to sublimation and transfers, been reading allot and still have a ton to learn and understand.
I was briefly reading about Sawgrass inks and i'm not sure i understand the difference between using chromablast inks as opposed to basic transfer inks. 

Don't both only work on white ground? what is the benefit of using the chromablast inks?


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## GAW

Here is a great post on sublimation vs chromablast that should help

http://www.t-shirtforums.com/dye-sublimation/t68499.html


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## EnMartian

*Sublimation*: Works ONLY on polyester fabrics and polymer coated blanks made specifically for sublimation. In the truest sense, sublimation is NOT a transfer at all, in that the dye actually turns to a gas and penetrates the polyester item, or the poly coated surface of a blank item. Sublimation ink is only made for a relatively small selection of all the Epson and Ricoh printers on the market, of which, the Ricoh GX7000 and the Epson 4880 are the best (in desktop sublimation).

*ChromaBlast*: Works ONLY on 100% cotton garments. A true transfer in that the ink is printed onto a special paper with a carrier agent which in turn transfers to the garment, but that's where the similarity ends. In this case, the ink is scientifically formulated to bond with the carrier on the paper, then in turn, the ink and carrier together react and then bond with the cotton fibers in the garment when heat pressed. This creates a very nearly permanent image of high quality that will last a long time, with a very mild hand. The same applies to ChromaBlast ink as sublimation in that ink is made for a relatively small number of printers; of which, the Ricoh GX7000 and Epson 4880 are the two best in the desktop market.

*Standard Inkjet Transfers*: There are several variations on this type of transfer, but typically the ink is printed onto a transfer film or agent on a sheet of paper, then heat pressed onto the garment. The transfer layer acts to carry the ink from the paper over onto the garment, and helps affix the design to the garment. These types of transfers are typically not as durable as ChromaBlast, and definitely not as durable as sublimation. These types of transfers may be available in a wider range of printers.
Overall, a design printed with sublimation or ChromaBlast costs roughly the same in ink and paper. Standard inkjet transfers tend to run cheaper. But, it is a cheaper, less durable product. You usually get what you pay for.


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## red514

Thanks Kristine, that also helped clear it up for me.
From what i've read the major difference is the durability, that chromablast actually bonds with the cotton fibers sort of like sublimation and will last much longer then standard inkjet transfer (and will also give more vibrant colors?).
The cost for chromablast is approximately the same as sublimation.

I still don't think this maker is using chromablast as the garment didn't pass the wash test, i really think it's just standard inkjet transfer on white. :/


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## jimc

Take a look at this, a spray, applied to cotton to allow sublimation.

Digi Coat Specialised Sublimation Coatings

JIM


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## TexSub

jimc said:


> Take a look at this, a spray, applied to cotton to allow sublimation.
> 
> Digi Coat Specialised Sublimation Coatings
> 
> JIM



Still NOT true sublimation. The spray is just coating the fabric. You are just 'sublimating' to the sprayed on layer, NOT to the fabric. Kind of like a regular inkjet transfer but with an extra step (spraying on the fabric) and more expensive (using sub inks instead of pigment inks). I agree with another poster here. Inkjet/laser transfers or this spray stuff will NOT yield a commercially viable product, the quality is just not there.


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## Conde_David

Chromablast is inkjet transfer paper with a matched ink.
It is vibrant, has a soft hand and washes well.

The GX7000 makes an excellent printer for use with the
Chromablast paper and ink. I posted the cost somewhere
on this forum.


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## EnMartian

red514 said:


> Thanks Kristine, that also helped clear it up for me.
> From what i've read the major difference is the durability, that chromablast actually bonds with the cotton fibers sort of like sublimation and will last much longer then standard inkjet transfer (and will also give more vibrant colors?).
> The cost for chromablast is approximately the same as sublimation.
> 
> I still don't think this maker is using chromablast as the garment didn't pass the wash test, i really think it's just standard inkjet transfer on white. :/


I've seen wash tests on the ChromaBlast and it holds up. It isn't exactly like sublimation, as it doesn't dye the fibers, but it is durable. The color is great too. And yes, the cost is roughly similar. 

I have to say that we haven't done a lot of work with standard inkjet transfers so I don't really feel qualified to speak about their durability and washfastness. What I do know is that the garments and patches that we've sublimated and the test ChromaBlast prints we've run have held up well.


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## vadan

So let me get this straight any printer using subli ink can not print on cotton and for chromoblast no polyester. 1 or the other. But can 1 printer be interchanged between these inks to accomodate the product or is that a very bad idea?

Because that would mean ideally you need 2 printers?

V


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## charles95405

Vadam...very bad idea...to use different inks in the same printer means you MUST purge the one ink from the lines before using the next ink...wastes a lot of expensive ink..not good...and would not recommend it


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## PhilDx

Switching inks between completely different processes (sublimation/dye/pigment/etc) on a printer is going to be hell. If you don't purge completely you run the risk of the different ink-chemistry interacting in unpredictable ways, leading to clogging and such. You could do it once if you decided to ditch one method for another, but back-and-forth would be horrible.


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## GCharb

Hello all!

Isn't there hybrid sublimation, chromablast system for the Epson 4800?

G


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## Cynthia

Yes there is and I have one. It prints sublimation on one side and Chromablast on the other. As to the printer I am not happy with it. The Chromablast clogs even if I do a nozzle check every day. Even after a good purge cleaning the blue nozzle stays clogged. I am considering getting a Ricoh for sublimation and a laser printer for T-shirts (as recommended by David from Conde). Another issue with the Chromablast transfers is that it leaves a film layer on gray or pastel shirts, unless you trim the transfer entirely, which is not always possible. Does anyone have an opinion as to whether the laser printer transfers leave a shadow? I was told that the Chromablast shadow will wash out, but it does not. 

Sublimation is very nice and bright, but the Vapor apparel shirts cost more and not everyone is willing to pay that price unfortunately.


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## GCharb

Hello Cynthia, thanks for the infos.

Sorry to hear your hybrid did not work as you expected, especially if it is an expensive 4800.

I did print some transfer samples on my Dell 2130, it came out real nice but it did left a window, even after 3 washes.

On my side, I am looking at ways to print sublimation on 100% cotton shirts as well.

So far I have gathered some info on 2 steps transfer paper for 100% cotton that can be sublimated, giving some thickness but with soft hand.

Also looking at the cost of sublimation, considering the price of poly garments compared to 100% cotton, I think this is worth a look but I am having difficulties finding infos on the subject.

Gilles


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## Cynthia

Gilles, be careful with the sublimation on cotton. Everything i have read and all the people "in the business" have told me it won't work. A 2-step transfer may be more trouble than it is worth, and costlier also(?). Good luck on your learning...


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## charles95405

Giles...read all the sublimation threads...you CANNOT sublimate on cotton...you will get an image but it will wash and fade...remember in sublimation you are actually dying the polyester fibers...the ink turns to a gas and bond with the fibers...it WILL NOT bond to cotton...forget about the spray on crap...not worth...beside with that you are just putting a transfer ON top of the garment...


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## GCharb

Hello Charles and Cynthia and thanks for the replies.

I know about sublimation not working on cotton but only on poly garment. I was referring to Coastal 2 steps opaque material. They claim you can sublimate on it, hence my post.

So far I have read about sublimation quality and the 2 steps durability on cotton garment, seems like a winning combination.

I totally agree that the cost would be higher, but if it gives good result on dark/black shirts and better washability, then it is something I am willing to try.

Maybe someone tried it and could post on it, share their experience about that process, tell us about washability and how it holds up, or even show images 

Gilles


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## Trisha

Can you use chromablast on non-white shirts? Light colored ones? Dark colored?


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## Conde_David

Chromablast is only for white.
Imageclip for color laser will.
Search YouTube for imageclip
two versions: one For light colors and one 
for darks.


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## Nick Horvath

charles95405 said:


> Giles...read all the sublimation threads...you CANNOT sublimate on cotton...you will get an image but it will wash and fade...remember in sublimation you are actually dying the polyester fibers...the ink turns to a gas and bond with the fibers...it WILL NOT bond to cotton...forget about the spray on crap...not worth...beside with that you are just putting a transfer ON top of the garment...


I agree in regards to the spray. Many years ago I saw something like that at a trade show, and basically when spraying it you need an extremely well ventilated area, or a gas mask....


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## Waseema

Hi All,
I am completely new to the T shirt designing and printing.. Since i have my own interest towards designing, i have started to learn illustrator and have come up with few designs... and now want to learn about different printing mechanisms. So far I have understood that there r 3 printing methods that goes very well and they r screen printing for bulk printing, digital for lesser no of tees, and there is something called sublimation process. I would like to know all the three methods in detail. Kindly refer me any site or info to learn all these. Thanks.


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## azit

Sublimation can be done on white/light color polyester tees only.
This process is not suitable for 100% cotton tees.
Tees having a mix of 50% cotton and 50% polyester are good enough but still they have to be white/light color only.


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## red514

Waseema said:


> So far I have understood that there r 3 printing methods that goes very well and they r screen printing for bulk printing, digital for lesser no of tees, and there is something called sublimation process. I would like to know all the three methods in detail. Kindly refer me any site or info to learn all these. Thanks.


this thread is good start
http://www.t-shirtforums.com/general-t-shirt-selling-discussion/t37985.html


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## LB

SMB Printing said:


> Thank you for your help, I will check out the site. Is there a printer you would recommend?


Read this thread if you haven't already
http://www.t-shirtforums.com/dye-sublimation/t157013.html


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## painless

LB said:


> Read this thread if you haven't already
> http://www.t-shirtforums.com/dye-sublimation/t157013.html


 Wow! Thank you


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## Flint54

Sublimation on 100% cotton will not last. I don't have any more info on the processes than has been explained but I would recommend another source for your printers and ink. Cobra Ink has been installing CIS Systems in Epson Printers since 1999 and they have a very viable reputation! Additionally you won't be paying stratospheric prices for ink, just reasonable charges. They do not call their ink "Sublimation" ink due to legal copyright reasons but instead call it "High Temp Ink". There are many satisfied customers out there.

.:: Cobra Ink Systems::. This is where the term CIS began --- HOME PAGE

.:: Cobra Ink Systems::. This is where the term CIS began -- Printers

For the price of a Ricoh you could get 2 WF1100s & 2 WF30s with Hi Temp & Pigment inks and be set with FULL CIS and printing both for Polyester & 100% Cotton. Your $$ make your choice.


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## mgparrish

Flint54 said:


> Sublimation on 100% cotton will not last. I don't have any more info on the processes than has been explained but I would recommend another source for your printers and ink. Cobra Ink has been installing CIS Systems in Epson Printers since 1999 and they have a very viable reputation! Additionally you won't be paying stratospheric prices for ink, just reasonable charges. They do not call their ink "Sublimation" ink due to legal copyright reasons but instead call it "High Temp Ink". There are many satisfied customers out there.
> 
> .:: Cobra Ink Systems::. This is where the term CIS began --- HOME PAGE
> 
> .:: Cobra Ink Systems::. This is where the term CIS began -- Printers
> 
> For the price of a Ricoh you could get 2 WF1100s & 2 WF30s with Hi Temp & Pigment inks and be set with FULL CIS and printing both for Polyester & 100% Cotton. Your $$ make your choice.


Agree on all your points but just a slight error on the "sublimation" and "hi-temp" inks.

It's nothing to do with copyright. Sawgrass has a patent on a chemical addition to sublimation ink.


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## Flint54

I stand corrected and appreciate the update on the reason for the differences. All that I knew was that they could not call their ink sublimation ink because of a manufacturing difference so that led to my reasoning along with others. I do know that the Cobra Ink is a very vibrant ink that produces beautiful and lasting results on the proper substrates and after a few washings a 60/40 poly/cotton blend white T shows a very pleasing distressed look.


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## rossdv8

> _...forget about the spray on crap...not worth...beside with that you are just putting a transfer ON top of the garment..._


Not quite accurate. It depends how you do it. Our 100% cotton shirts are still showing the sublimated colour image if you turn the shirt inside out, faintly more or less as it does on our polyester shirts. We don't spray the stuff on top of the garment, we saturate it 'into' the cotton. If you can't see the print on the inside - you didn't do it right.


> _Sublimation on 100% cotton will not last._


This is probably right. After a little over 100 washes they still look pretty much the same as the first week, but I'm guessing if pushed to a few hundred washes they might start to fade.

What we can't prevent is the distressed look because just like polyester, the dye doesn't penetrate 100%. Unlike polyester, cotton fibres are soft and fluffy and the more times a shirt is hot washed and tumble dried, the more of these little fibres get brushed up.

But the look is pleasing and my two favourite shirts (worn at least twice a week since Jan or Feb this year) are sublimated into 100% cotton. The photos are on the forum. The info on how I did it is on the forum. And no matter how I look at it, it is still only a hobby project. 
Until someone comes up with a better saturation product, it is still not commercially viable. 

However the subbed cotton is outlasting screen printed, heat transfer and DTG, so I guess some time, somewhere, somebody will get the formula right.


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## adriatic

Yes you can.
If you do not believe send me your design and I will send you back the same on suitable transfer paper.

You just need to iron it for 30 seconds with a plain iron.


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## mgparrish

adriatic said:


> Yes you can.
> If you do not believe send me your design and I will send you back the same on suitable transfer paper.
> 
> You just need to iron it for 30 seconds with a plain iron.


This thread and the last post is very old. 

You cannot sublimate _directly_ on 100% cotton. 

But you can print onto a inkjet transfer paper that is polymer based, then the transfer paper is sublimated and basically acting as it's own substrate, a sublimated "sticker" onto a 100% cotton t-shirt.

But it's cheaper and just as durable to use regular 3rd pigment inks onto a 50/50 or 100 cotton garment with the polymer based paper than to sublimate onto a polymer transfer paper using sub inks. You also lose the _direct_ sublimation advantage in either case since the inkjet transfer that is polymer based will have some hand and background "window" effect unless you trim. 

JPSS on white 50/50's will have very minimal "window" initially, and will lose the hand on the first wash and on white 50/50s the "window" is no longer seen. The window on light colored t-shirts cannot be avoided with a regular inkjet transfer paper, unlike direct sublimation onto a light color garment.

And after using both pigment inks and sublimation for a very long time ... there are no decent polymer based papers that are commercially viable IMO that you can apply with a plain iron BTW.


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## adriatic

mgparrish said:


> This thread and the last post is very old.
> 
> You cannot sublimate _directly_ on 100% cotton.
> 
> But you can print onto a inkjet transfer paper that is polymer based, then the transfer paper is sublimated and basically acting as it's own substrate, a sublimated "sticker" onto a 100% cotton t-shirt.
> 
> But it's cheaper and just as durable to use regular 3rd pigment inks onto a 50/50 or 100 cotton garment with the polymer based paper than to sublimate onto a polymer transfer paper using sub inks. You also lose the _direct_ sublimation advantage in either case since the inkjet transfer that is polymer based will have some hand and background "window" effect unless you trim.
> 
> JPSS on white 50/50's will have very minimal "window" initially, and will lose the hand on the first wash and on white 50/50s the "window" is no longer seen. The window on light colored t-shirts cannot be avoided with a regular inkjet transfer paper, unlike direct sublimation onto a light color garment.
> 
> And after using both pigment inks and sublimation for a very long time ... there are no decent polymer based papers that are commercially viable IMO that you can apply with a plain iron BTW.


Not so.

Why ?
Because pigment inks are floating on fibers. Take a look at green logo an pigment

While this sublimation on cotton do color fibers in deep. You can see clearly how on each fiber you have sublimated color

Just take a look at these two samples

If you do not believe us just ask for your own sample with your own design


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## azit

adriatic said:


> Not so.
> 
> Why ?
> Because pigment inks are floating on fibers. Take a look at green logo an pigment
> 
> While this sublimation on cotton do color fibers in deep. You can see clearly how on each fiber you have sublimated color
> 
> Just take a look at these two samples
> 
> If you do not believe us just ask for your own sample with your own design


Sublimation on 100% cotton.. Interesting! 
Please let us know how many washes it can withstand.


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## adriatic

adriatic said:


> Not so.
> 
> Why ?
> Because pigment inks are floating on fibers. Take a look at green logo an pigment
> 
> While this sublimation on cotton do color fibers in deep. You can see clearly how on each fiber you have sublimated color
> 
> Just take a look at these two samples
> 
> If you do not believe us just ask for your own sample with your own design


You can wash it as long you want. As long cotton will not fall in part. Even you can iron it at 100 st C because these cotton fibers are only impregnated locally together with suitable sublimation ink. And suitable transfer paper.

So the image is part of fabrics same as with polyester garments


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## mgparrish

adriatic said:


> Not so.
> 
> Why ?
> Because pigment inks are floating on fibers. Take a look at green logo an pigment
> 
> While this sublimation on cotton do color fibers in deep. You can see clearly how on each fiber you have sublimated color
> 
> Just take a look at these two samples
> 
> If you do not believe us just ask for your own sample with your own design


You did not clearly read my comment unfortunately.

Proof that you cannot _*directly*_ sublimate to cotton is real simple. 

Take regular sublimation paper that has no polymer carrier and sublimate directly to 100% cotton, the disperse dyes _will not_ bond to organic fibers. a polymer is required. 

You might "stain" the 100% cotton t-shirt then after washing the disperse dyes will wash away and your intended imaging is gone. There could be some colorant in the fluid remaining causing a slight stain ... _but it is not sublimating._

You are only able to sublimate to polymers and a few other _inorganic_ materials, therefore the claim to be able to "sublimate to cotton" requires a disclaimer. 

If you use regular polymer based inkjet transfer paper then it is the plastic from the paper that is sublimated onto. 

The ability for the transfer paper to bond to the cotton fibers is not sublimation, it is a iron on sticker, the plastic will melt and be forced deep into the fibers, some better than others, _but again this is not sublimating the cotton fibers as it is not possible_.

You are sublimating a piece of plastic then the plastic is melted onto the 100% cotton fibers. The plastic applied will sublimate concurrently with the plastic adhering to the 100% cotton t-shirt during the press operation.

Physics hasn't miraculaously changed, this is a fact of science. 

Sublimation inks are within a group of dyes known as "disperse dyes", sublimation cannot permanently bind to organic fibers.

Sublimation for Beginners | Sign & Digital Graphics

Sublimation Paper and Ink

Disperse Dye ~ Define Textile

ATPColor, Digital Disperse/Sublimation Ink

There are only 2 ways to "sublimate to cotton".

1. Print sublimation inks onto a polymer release paper and heat transfer.

2. Coat the garment beforehand with a liquid that has a polymer composition.

Some call this "prepping".


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## rossdv8

Thanks mgparrish. I've tried to explain the process that way so many time. But to anyone messing with sublimation 'into' cotton, I still remind them:

I have only managed to get the process working with 100% success ONCE (on two shirts). And yes, they are guaranteed 100% cotton. And yes, it was sort of accidental when I was trying different polymers to impregnate the fibres.

I have tried and tried to replicate the process and failed. A couple of years and well over 100 washes later one of the shirts is still not fading and I still wear it a couple of times a week. There are photos of it on the forum somewhere.

Every shirt since has looked fine for a while then faded after 40 or so washes. I used spray on clear acrylic coatings and the fumes alone would kill you if you did it day in, day out. But on two shirts I tried something different on one day and because nothing had worked and people here told me it could not work I stopped documenting stuff. Now I have a process that worked and no way to remember exactly what I did that day. I only know it involved mixing two of the polymers.

If I ever take this on again I would like to find is a polymer pre-treatment for cotton that is wear safe.

Is there a pre-treatment for direct to garment that is polymer based? And that will stand heat?

While I think dye sub into cotton is a lost cause commercially at present, it is still an interesting hobby, and I am wearing a dye subbed cotton shirt that was hot washed and hot tumble dried 28 times before it finally faded.

But While I can still wear the original two shirts that have not faded after all this time I will look for another method that works.


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## Conde_David

Things like this are why I love sublimation. Always pushing and learning. Thanks to all who contribute!


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## azit

I guess there would be no major difference in using a polymer-based sublimation transfer paper or regular inkjet transfer paper. There will be 'window' & 'feel' to both the prints, right? 
Is there any polymer-based sublimation transfer paper for dark tees?!


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## rossdv8

David, have you looked at the photos of the shirt I am talking about. Sublimated into pre-treated 100% cotton. 

I've posted pictures of it over a long period of time. If you look at earlier pictures and this one taken a few minutes ago, you will see it has not faded since late 2012 or early 2013 or whenever.

I really wish I could remember exactly what I did on that day. I did 2 shirts, each with slightly different pre-treatment. This one was perfect. The other one there was a reaction with the two polymers I mixed and after it dried and the image was pressed, I had to 'shave' hardened balls of lint off it. But they both worked after a fashion.

It was only after I had washed it daily for a few weeks I realised that this particular shirt was not losing ANY dye at all.

And to this day, it remains permanently dyed. yes, it is a little distressed looking, but that is due to the fibres brushing a little with all the washing and tumble drying.

On the other hand, that happened pretty well as soon as the shirt was first washed. It hasn't changed much if at all in somewhere between 150 and 200 washes. Honnestly, it is my favourite shirt and is worn a couple or a few times every week.

I'm still not claiming any sort of victory in the hunt for a solution. Just pointing out that it is possible and eventually someone will find a way to replicate what I stumbled upon.

Now, can somebody please tell me. Is there a pre-treatment for cotton shirts that is a polymer process, and that is ok to press?

Are the direct to garment pre-treatments polymer?

If anyone knows, I would like to find out so I can continue experimenting. 

I cannot get the spray polymer I was previously using at a reasonable price any more.

Thanks in advance. Here's the shirt that has been posted before, taken today. Just to keep discussion (and hope) alive 

It is beginning to show its age.. No longer white.


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## mgparrish

azit said:


> I guess there would be no major difference in using a polymer-based sublimation transfer paper or regular inkjet transfer paper. *There will be 'window' & 'feel' to both the prints, right?
> *Is there any polymer-based sublimation transfer paper for dark tees?!


Yes there would be some feel and some background showing, lessor background on solid white.

I haven't tested all opaque "1 step" papers for regular ink and sublimating those, but those I did try did not sub well. 

I believe the reason is that those papers have a white coating for opacity and the manufacturer intended those for regular ink jet printing. 

If the white coating is easily sublimated then if you used a 50/50 shirt then the base color of the colored t-shirt would have a tendency to migrate onto the white and discolor the transfer. 

The raw material in 50/50 t-shirts are dyed by the manufacturer with both dyes for cotton and disperse (sublimation) dyes, since the poly fibers of the colored 50/50 cannot be colored with the dye intended for cotton. 

As such, once heating those t-shirt dyes from the manufactured t-shirt could actually "sublimate" the white coating and give you a color cast.


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## azit

mgparrish said:


> Yes there would be some feel and some background showing, lessor background on solid white.
> 
> I haven't tested all opaque "1 step" papers for regular ink and sublimating those, but those I did try did not sub well.
> 
> I believe the reason is that those papers have a white coating for opacity and the manufacturer intended those for regular ink jet printing.
> 
> If the white coating is easily sublimated then if you used a 50/50 shirt then the base color of the colored t-shirt would have a tendency to migrate onto the white and discolor the transfer.
> 
> The raw material in 50/50 t-shirts are dyed by the manufacturer with both dyes for cotton and disperse (sublimation) dyes, since the poly fibers of the colored 50/50 cannot be colored with the dye intended for cotton.
> 
> As such, once heating those t-shirt dyes from the manufactured t-shirt could actually "sublimate" the white coating and give you a color cast.


Thanks mgparrish. You have explained it very clearly.

I use sublimation flock but the prints are toooo heavy.
That material is good for printing small logos only.
Sublimation on 100%-dark-cotton without heavy feel, is still eluding us all.


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## adriatic

azit said:


> Thanks mgparrish. You have explained it very clearly.
> 
> I use sublimation flock but the prints are toooo heavy.
> That material is good for printing small logos only.
> Sublimation on 100%-dark-cotton without heavy feel, is still eluding us all.


Sublimation on dark will never work as good as expected since sublimation color is in general transparent color not covering paint. We have had some promising results with blue but very pure color for red. As you can see on this sample

On the second image below we have sample printed on the same cotton and same transfer paper but with DTG compliant ink. And the layer is as tin as DTG printed layer. No impregnation. But it can be protected with additional impregnation for rubbing. And the print is elastic and stretch resistant. It does not break as DTG prints.

I image printed on Epson R245
II image printed at Canon iP 1300


----------



## mgparrish

adriatic said:


> Sublimation on dark will never work as good as expected since sublimation color is in general transparent color not covering paint. We have had some promising results with blue but very pure color for red. As you can see on this sample
> 
> On the second image below we have sample printed on the same cotton and same transfer paper but with DTG compliant ink. And the layer is as tin as DTG printed layer. No impregnation. But it can be protected with additional impregnation for rubbing. And the print is elastic and stretch resistant. It does not break as DTG prints.
> 
> I image printed on Epson R245
> II image printed at Canon iP 1300


 I think you are not reading the gentleman's post to me correctly. 

What he is describing is a material that is white and provides opacity for the design, so he is not talking about direct sublimation to the dark garment.

The material is sublimated then applied to the garment in most cases. There is also other materials such as sublimation flock that is often applied to sports garments too, and other materials that can be sublimated and provide the necessary opacity to allow designs to be placed on dark garments.


----------



## adriatic

mgparrish said:


> I think you are not reading the gentleman's post to me correctly.
> 
> What he is describing is a material that is white and provides opacity for the design, so he is not talking about direct sublimation to the dark garment.
> 
> The material is sublimated then applied to the garment in most cases. There is also other materials such as sublimation flock that is often applied to sports garments too, and other materials that can be sublimated and provide the necessary opacity to allow designs to be placed on dark garments.


are you talking about something like this transfer on flock transfer material.

[media]http://adriatix.hr/A_NOVOSTI/A_novo_INK_ink/PICT/T-shirt-1-XXL.jpg[/media]

but this is not sublimation. It is Dtg ink for Epson and a lot of headackes with clogging


Than this is not a problem at all expect the price . This paper is pretty expensive. I think it costs cca USD 2 for A4 sheet.

But what I am talking is something completely different. Far less expensive and no clogging at all. And based on Canon disposable cartridges. So when you are not satisfied with result you by yourself a new print head for couple of dollars


----------



## mgparrish

adriatic said:


> are you talking about something like this transfer on flock transfer material.
> 
> [media]http://adriatix.hr/A_NOVOSTI/A_novo_INK_ink/PICT/T-shirt-1-XXL.jpg[/media]
> but this is not sublimation. It is Dtg ink for Epson and a lot of headackes with clogging
> 
> 
> Than this is not a problem at all expect the price . This paper is pretty expensive. I think it costs cca USD 2 for A4 sheet.
> 
> But what I am talking is something completely different. Far less expensive and no clogging at all. And based on Canon disposable cartridges. So when you are not satisfied with result you by yourself a new print head for couple of dollars


What you are showing is not part of the other gentleman's comments. He was talking about a opaque material that is heat transferred using sublimation inks. Sublimation flock

I suspect English is not your 1st language so I can understand some of your difficulties with the topics I have been commenting about.

We (myself and the other gentleman) are not talking about DTG.

This is sublimation flock like the other gentleman described.

https://www.heattransferwarehouse.com/subliflock-5901-p-306.html


----------



## adriatic

mgparrish said:


> What you are showing is not part of the other gentleman's comments. He was talking about a opaque material that is heat transferred using sublimation inks. Sublimation flock
> 
> I suspect English is not your 1st language so I can understand some of your difficulties with the topics I have been commenting about.
> 
> This is sublimation flock like the other gentleman described.
> 
> https://www.heattransferwarehouse.com/subliflock-5901-p-306.html


Yes that is the same thing. It is a transfer foil for Cutters. So you should cut it after sublimation. Or printing with DTG inks.


----------



## adriatic

adriatic said:


> Sublimation on dark will never work as good as expected since sublimation color is in general transparent color not covering paint. We have had some promising results with blue but very pure color for red. As you can see on this sample
> 
> On the second image below we have sample printed on the same cotton and same transfer paper but with DTG compliant ink. And the layer is as tin as DTG printed layer. No impregnation. But it can be protected with additional impregnation for rubbing. And the print is elastic and stretch resistant. It does not break as DTG prints.
> 
> I image printed on Epson R245
> II image printed at Canon iP 1300


Here is one more sublimation on white jeens


----------



## mgparrish

adriatic said:


> Here is one more sublimation on white jeens


Yes but the cotton fibers are not sublimated, there is "prep" material onto the cotton, either a liquid with polymer applied, or plastic released from a transfer paper.

The "prep" or "coating" is sublimated, not the cotton, it's not chemically possible for cotton to have a molecular bond with sublimation.


----------



## mgparrish

adriatic said:


> Yes that is the same thing. It is a transfer foil for Cutters. So you should cut it after sublimation. Or printing with DTG inks.


Flock was the discussion. 

Flock and foil are not the same, they are different materials.

One can consider they are both the "same thing" as in that you can sublimate both as an applique and transfer it perhaps.


----------



## adriatic

mgparrish said:


> Yes but the cotton fibers are not sublimated, there is "prep" material onto the cotton, either a liquid with polymer applied, or plastic released from a transfer paper.
> 
> The "prep" or "coating" is sublimated, not the cotton, it's not chemically possible for cotton to have a molecular bond with sublimation.


You are right and wrong.
Sublimation definitively needs an anchor on cotton. That is a physical law.
But think whatever you want but this sample is not prep or coated. So as I sad above give me your design and I will send you a sample for you own trial. Just burn it in for 30 second on white cotton. Sorry right now it does not work on dark. But maybe it could be done, not right now.

This anchor is a part of AHPT system or part of image. So every sublimation ink dot has its own anchor for sublimation

And that is a beauty of this system because you do not loose a soft touch with prep like with DTG printers on cotton or flock . And you do not need to apply protective coat over DTG pigment inks. It felts like it is done on polyester.

And this sample has been printed on Epson R240 and ironed with plain household iron for 30 seconds


----------



## mgparrish

adriatic said:


> You are right and wrong.
> Sublimation definitively needs an anchor on cotton. That is a physical law.
> But think whatever you want but this sample is not prep or coated. So as I sad above give me your design and I will send you a sample for you own trial. Just burn it in for 30 second on white cotton. Sorry right now it does not work on dark. But maybe it could be done, not right now.
> 
> This *anchor* is a part of AHPT system or part of image. So every sublimation ink dot has its own *anchor* for sublimation
> 
> And that is a beauty of this system because you do not loose a soft touch with prep like with DTG printers on cotton or flock . And you do not need to apply protective coat over DTG pigment inks. It felts like it is done on polyester.
> 
> And this sample has been printed on Epson R240 and ironed with plain household iron for 30 seconds


_There is nothing I have stated that is wrong._ 

I am not discussing anything about what_ you_ are doing except your claim about sublimating to light color cotton. You are making a "coating" or a "base" or "anchor" that is sublimatable. 

You are applying a _substance_ that is sublimatable in-between the cotton and the sublimation dye. Call it an "anchor", "base", whatever, you are "prepping" the cotton. If you are using weed free paper that was meant for sublimation inks, those "dots" have their own "anchor", but you are still "prepping", just more precisely prepping only where you need it. 

Those papers are still polymer release papers, they just "prep" where the dye is only. 

Those type inkjet papers for sublimation failed to make any success in the US market as the quality was poor. That is why the mainstream vendors here don't offer that stuff, it's very very poor. It's not like vendors here are not aware of such things.

Anchor = prep
Base = prep

The same thing can be done with laser sublimation toner and weedfree laser papers too. No matter what you call what you are doing, the sublimation dye need a polymer assist to allow imprinting onto cotton, do matter how large, small, or precise the "prep" can be applied even to tiny dots, you still must have something in-between the cotton and the dye, it is still a prep.

The other statements I made was regarding using a sublimatable material that are white opaque and apply in applique form.


----------



## adriatic

adriatic said:


> You are right and wrong.
> Sublimation definitively needs an anchor on cotton. That is a physical law.
> But think whatever you want but this sample is not prep or coated. So as I sad above give me your design and I will send you a sample for you own trial. Just burn it in for 30 second on white cotton. Sorry right now it does not work on dark. But maybe it could be done, not right now.
> 
> This anchor is a part of AHPT system or part of image. So every sublimation ink dot has its own anchor for sublimation
> 
> And that is a beauty of this system because you do not loose a soft touch with prep like with DTG printers on cotton or flock . And you do not need to apply protective coat over DTG pigment inks. It felts like it is done on polyester.
> 
> And this sample has been printed on Epson R240 and ironed with plain household iron for 30 seconds


You are right but there is a great difference from global prep and local prep

You can see that on these two samples
global 
[media]http://adriatix.hr/A_PROIZVODI/A_IMPREGNACIJE/PICT/Bul_Subli_IMP_Acryl_7_S.jpg[/media]

vs
local
[media]http://adriatix.hr/SAMPLES/PICT/SAM_Bulg_CUT_1_S.jpg[/media]

If you want High rez image replace >S< with >LL< in link. Or for complete article go to the root of this site.


----------



## ZO6 KLR

It surprises me that this topic is still discussed to this day. I can appreciate the trials and R & D in trying to make improvements to a product or process but you can't argue with physics. There has to be a polymer in there somewhere whether it be the actual fabric substrate or a "layer" of polymer for the dye sub process to migrate AND be permanent. No way around it.


----------



## adriatic

adriatic said:


> You are right but there is a great difference from global prep and local prep
> 
> You can see that on these two samples
> global
> [media]http://adriatix.hr/A_PROIZVODI/A_IMPREGNACIJE/PICT/Bul_Subli_IMP_Acryl_7_S.jpg[/media]
> 
> vs
> local
> [media]http://adriatix.hr/SAMPLES/PICT/SAM_Bulg_CUT_1_S.jpg[/media]
> 
> If you want High rez image replace >S< with >LL< in link. Or for complete article go to the root of this site.


Jast take a look at these to samples and tel me what do you see


----------



## mgparrish

adriatic said:


> Jast take a look at these to samples and tel me what do you see


On the image you are calling "global". The problem is the "prep" used caused dye migration.

But not all "global" preps cause dye migration. But you showed an example of a poor prep material is all in your "global".

I'm not an advocate of prepping, but if you want to do a side by side comparison then you shouldn't use a poor example then hold it up as a "*strawman*" to argue against. 

The advantage of a "local" prep is that in theory there would be no feel or visual sight of the prep in the unprinted areas, that would be the only advantage.

I would argue if you used the same prep in your "good" local example as in the "bad" global example, then you wouldn't see any dye migration on either.


----------



## adriatic

mgparrish said:


> On the image you are calling "global". The problem is the "prep" used caused dye migration.
> 
> But not all "global" preps cause dye migration. But you showed an example of a poor prep material is all in your "global".
> 
> I'm not an advocate of prepping, but if you want to do a side by side comparison then you shouldn't use a poor example then hold it up as a "*strawman*" to argue against.
> 
> The advantage of a "local" prep is that in theory there would be no feel or visual sight of the prep in the unprinted areas, that would be the only advantage.
> 
> I would argue if you used the same prep in your "good" local example as in the "bad" global example, then you wouldn't see any dye migration on either.


As far I do knew sublimation is vapor dying process and if prep is a good receptor for sublimation it will collect all vapor it can collect. But if prep is a pure or not sublimation friendly it will colored only with strong sublimation stream. A week sublimation would not leave any sign. So in general if you compare this to image forming process and Light and full colors, with this kind of prep you are loosing on details or color tones. Have you tried to think about prep in this light. But if you do have prep for every dot then you will get full color spec and very bright colors.

Take a look at the rest of these two samples. Also if you like to see full rez image replace S with XL on the same above link.


----------



## mgparrish

adriatic said:


> As far I do knew sublimation is vapor dying process and if prep is a good receptor for sublimation it will collect all vapor it can collect. But if prep is a pure or not sublimation friendly it will colored only with strong sublimation stream. A week sublimation would not leave any sign. So in general if you compare this to image forming process and Light and full colors, with this kind of prep you are loosing on details or color tones. Have you tried to think about prep in this light. But if you do have prep for every dot then you will get full color spec and very bright colors.
> 
> Take a look at the rest of these two samples. Also if you like to see full rez image replace S with XL on the same above link.


There are some preps better than others, but even the best preps are not substitutes for doing straight sublimation on 100% poly.

By the time you spend all the time and extra cost (time = cost) doing all this you are not really saving money, and your product is still not as good as doing straight sublimation without prepping.

Perhaps "performance" tshirts are expensive in your country, but the costs are much lower here now. No real savings vs regular sublimation if you consider your time.

Also, there are alternate technologies where you end up with the same thing, for example image clip laser light. No hand or visual indication in the unprinted area either. 

On white tees I can use pigment inks and either JPSS or "Iron-all" and have the same quality product. No artifacts in the un-printed area on white fabrics and no hand after washing. But much cheaper to produce and no extra processing the prepping would represent.

This "local" prep you describe, I did this many years ago with Image clip and sublimation laser toner on a 50/50.

[media]http://www.mgparrish.com/noweedpostwash.jpg[/media] 
It still comes down to how much effort and cost is required, and are there other ways to get the same results with different process.


----------



## adriatic

mgparrish said:


> There are some preps better than others, but even the best preps are not substitutes for doing straight sublimation on 100% poly.
> 
> By the time you spend all the time and extra cost (time = cost) doing all this you are not really saving money, and your product is still not as good as doing straight sublimation without prepping.
> 
> Perhaps "performance" tshirts are expensive in your country, but the costs are much lower here now. No real savings vs regular sublimation if you consider your time.
> 
> Also, there are alternate technologies where you end up with the same thing, for example image clip laser light. No hand or visual indication in the unprinted area either.
> 
> On white tees I can use pigment inks and either JPSS or "Iron-all" and have the same quality product. No artifacts in the un-printed area on white fabrics and no hand after washing. But much cheaper to produce and no extra processing the prepping would represent.
> 
> This "local" prep you describe, I did this many years ago with Image clip and sublimation laser toner on a 50/50.
> 
> [media]http://www.mgparrish.com/noweedpostwash.jpg[/media]
> It still comes down to how much effort and cost is required, and are there other ways to get the same results with different process.


I do not knew what JPSS is but do expect it is something like Chomablast system. I tryed it but it happened to be very picky considering temperature pressure and time. If you miss something you get a failure. So it is a chalange to have a system that will work as god as with the best therm press but with a plain iron. 

Now I will show you two samples of same image in high res : The first one is sublimation and the second one is probably something like your JPSS system. If you carefully look at each you can see how the bought as self weed and no cut systems. But on pixel basis. No windows or background. Also you can see how colors are different. The second image is printed with pigmented ink. But the colors are spot on compared to original. While sublimation colors has tipical sublimation depth seen on Mugs.

And first one is printed on Epson R240 while second on Canon iP 1300. Just compare these quality and results for something that cost 100 x more.


----------



## mgparrish

adriatic said:


> I do not knew what JPSS is but do expect it is something like Chomablast system. I tryed it but it happened to be very picky considering temperature pressure and time. If you miss something you get a failure. So it is a chalange to have a system that will work as god as with the best therm press but with a plain iron.
> 
> Now I will show you two samples of same image in high res : The first one is sublimation and the second one is probably something like your JPSS system. If you carefully look at each you can see how the bought as self weed and no cut systems. But on pixel basis. No windows or background. Also you can see how colors are different. The second image is printed with pigmented ink. But the colors are spot on compared to original. While sublimation colors has tipical sublimation depth seen on Mugs.
> 
> And first one is printed on Epson R240 while second on Canon iP 1300. Just compare these quality and results for something that cost 100 x more.


JPSS is not the same as Chromablast. Chromablast is a combination of paper and inks sold together. I get better results with JPSS and 3rd party inks suitable for tshirts.

I use JPSS paper with a 3rd party pigment ink. That Canon iP 1300 is another "strawman" you created, it is not pigment based and Canon doesn't supply pigments until you get into the pro models with 10 - 12 colors. 

Even if you made the mistake of using a standard dye based ink jet ink you could still set the colors up brighter, just a question of color management, you just dial it in.

PIXMA Professional Photo Printers - Inkjet Photo Printers - Canon Europe

That model is dye based and not aware of 3rd party pigments for low end Canon printers for tshirt use.

Your "bad" example is just another "strawman" you created. The fact is that you are not showing the state of the art in pigment tshirt transfer printing, you show _your _results with a printer and ink set not well suited for tshirt printing.

Getting color setup is just a function of color management. Top image in the attached is with a profile , has more "pop". The bottom image is using straight Adobe RGB1998 color space, no profile. Technically the bottom is more accurate. But same 3rd party inks, printer, paper and tshirt. These inks are not as expensive as sublimation inks are either, these cost less not "100 X more".

I suspect it's just an issue of not having access to the same things we have in the US, and could be the reason you think this prepping is so much better perhaps.


----------



## adriatic

mgparrish said:


> JPSS is not the same as Chromablast. Chromablast is a combination of paper and inks sold together. I get better results with JPSS and 3rd party inks suitable for tshirts.
> 
> I use JPSS paper with a 3rd party pigment ink. That Canon iP 1300 is another "strawman" you created, it is not pigment based and Canon doesn't supply pigments until you get into the pro models with 10 - 12 colors.
> 
> Even if you made the mistake of using a standard dye based ink jet ink you could still set the colors up brighter, just a question of color management, you just dial it in.
> 
> PIXMA Professional Photo Printers - Inkjet Photo Printers - Canon Europe
> 
> That model is dye based and not aware of 3rd party pigments for low end Canon printers for tshirt use.
> 
> Your "bad" example is just another "strawman" you created. The fact is that you are not showing the state of the art in pigment tshirt transfer printing, you show _your _results with a printer and ink set not well suited for tshirt printing.
> 
> Getting color setup is just a function of color management. Top image in the attached is with a profile , has more "pop". The bottom image is using straight Adobe RGB1998 color space, no profile. Technically the bottom is more accurate. But same 3rd party inks, printer, paper and tshirt. These inks are not as expensive as sublimation inks are either, these cost less not "100 X more".
> 
> I suspect it's just an issue of not having access to the same things we have in the US, and could be the reason you think this prepping is so much better perhaps.


I suppose this sample is printed on photo paper not on fabrics. I think we are talking about fabrics. So here are two samples printed on the same Canon iP 1300 with Ecco Acril Ink. Second is printed on plain paper so the sharpens is not as good as second image transfered to fabrics, Add third printed on Photo printer

You have to have in mind that complete this system cost is 200 - 300 USD. While your do cost somewhere 2000 - 3000 USD
So the question what is better investment for a dollar.

Dye Photo Compatible ink printed on Epson PX 700
[media]http://adriatix.hr/A_ISK/A_Isk_INK/PICT/Color-Chart--A-Sample_XL.jpg[/media]

Pigment Ecco Acryl Ink on Canon iP 1300
[media]http://adriatix.hr/A_ISK/A_Isk_INK/PICT/Color-Chart--B-Sample_XL.jpg[/media]


----------



## mgparrish

adriatic said:


> I suppose this sample is printed on photo paper not on fabrics. I think we are talking about fabrics. So here are two samples printed on the same Canon iP 1300 with Ecco Acril Ink. Second is printed on plain paper so the sharpens is not as good as second image transfered to fabrics, Add third printed on Photo printer
> 
> *You have to have in mind that complete this system cost is 200 - 300 USD. While your do cost somewhere 2000 - 3000 USD
> So the question what is better investment for a dollar.
> *
> Dye Photo Compatible ink printed on Epson PX 700
> [media]http://adriatix.hr/A_ISK/A_Isk_INK/PICT/Color-Chart--A-Sample_XL.jpg[/media]Pigment Ecco Acryl Ink on Canon iP 1300
> [media]http://adriatix.hr/A_ISK/A_Isk_INK/PICT/Color-Chart--B-Sample_XL.jpg[/media]


Umm my printer I use for tshirts (Epson WF1100 13 x 19 inch print size ) cost me $125 USD. You keep making false comparisons to your method. 

My pictures I posted last are from an actual completed heat transferred 50/50 tshirt ... no photo paper. Both images are on the same tshirt, I folded the bottom up a little to get the 2 images closer. It is a real tshirt.  I have posted the same t-shirt in the inkjet transfer forum here many times, I didn't make it up for this discussion.

My inks are about $0.07 USD per mL, 4 ounces (= 118 mL) for $14.50

https://cobraink.com/ink/4-6 color pigment.htm

Your Canon is only up to A4 size printing or 8.27 × 11.7 inches and no one that is serious about making regular ink jet transfers uses Canons here in the US. Refer to the ink jet transfer section here on this forum.

Canon PIXMA iP1300 - Inkjet Photo Printers - Canon Europe

The latest Epson model with 4 color pigment is $150, and it prints 13 x 19 inches (larger than A3)

Epson WorkForce WF-7110 Inkjet Printer - Product Information - Epson America, Inc.

I bought one maybe a month ago.

When you ask "So the question what is better investment for a dollar." _The much larger print size Epson I use is the better investment. _
No way near $2000 - $3000 as you are claiming  ... try $150 instead.

Either I do pigments on cheaper 50/50 tshirts or I do sublimation on 100% poly.

Prepping is not saving me any money after labor and time is considered and the quality can't compare to doing regular sublimation. Makes no sense to me to sublimate on 100% cotton using any kind of prep.

Brand name (Gilden) 100% polyester performance tshirts I can get for $3.20 each in white or light colors.


----------



## adriatic

mgparrish said:


> Umm my printer I use for tshirts (Epson WF1100 13 x 19 inch print size ) cost me $125 USD. You keep making false comparisons to your method.
> 
> My pictures I posted last are from an actual completed heat transferred 50/50 tshirt ... no photo paper. Both images are on the same tshirt, I folded the bottom up a little to get the 2 images closer. It is a real tshirt.  I have posted the same t-shirt in the inkjet transfer forum here many times, I didn't make it up for this discussion.
> 
> My inks are about $0.07 USD per mL, 4 ounces (= 118 mL) for $14.50
> 
> https://cobraink.com/ink/4-6 color pigment.htm
> 
> Your Canon is only up to A4 size printing or 8.27 × 11.7 inches and no one that is serious about making regular ink jet transfers uses Canons here in the US. Refer to the ink jet transfer section here on this forum.
> 
> Canon PIXMA iP1300 - Inkjet Photo Printers - Canon Europe
> 
> The latest Epson model with 4 color pigment is $150, and it prints 13 x 19 inches (larger than A3)
> 
> Epson WorkForce WF-7110 Inkjet Printer - Product Information - Epson America, Inc.
> 
> I bought one maybe a month ago.
> 
> When you ask "So the question what is better investment for a dollar." _The much larger print size Epson I use is the better investment. _
> No way near $2000 - $3000 as you are claiming  ... try $150 instead.
> 
> Either I do pigments on cheaper 50/50 tshirts or I do sublimation on 100% poly.
> 
> Prepping is not saving me any money after labor and time is considered and the quality can't compare to doing regular sublimation. Makes no sense to me to sublimate on 100% cotton using any kind of prep.
> 
> Brand name (Gilden) 100% polyester performance tshirts I can get for $3.20 each in white or light colors.


not a bad setup but are you certain that you do not get >>window<< efect whith that transfer paper


----------



## mgparrish

adriatic said:


> not a bad setup but are you certain that you do not get >>window<< efect whith that transfer paper


On white 50/50 It can be barely seen when the transfer is first pressed. The photo is before washing. After the first wash it is _completely_ invisible and there is no feeling in the transfer area. 

For light colors I don't offer pigments due to window effect, I either do true sublimation on light color 100% poly or Image clip laser (weed free) on 50/50s light color tshirts.


----------



## adriatic

mgparrish said:


> On white 50/50 It can be barely seen when the transfer is first pressed. The photo is before washing. After the first wash it is _completely_ invisible and there is no feeling in the transfer area.
> 
> For light colors I don't offer pigments due to window effect, I either do true sublimation on light color 100% poly or Image clip laser (weed free) on 50/50s light color tshirts.


You see now we are mixing apples and oranges.

This paper you are talking is same Chromablast technology. It does not matter if you do not see window leter if you can feel that square or you need to cut it around like on some simple Iron On inkjet paper.

But our samples do not have any window effect. 

So what is nearest technology without this >>window effect<< As far I knew it is DTG printer or color laser with self weeding paper. But in that case you loose Photo look. So DTG is only way to go. And if you do not want to use prep than you need to buy solvent ink DTG.

How much it costs?


----------



## mgparrish

adriatic said:


> You see now we are mixing apples and oranges.
> 
> This paper you are talking is same Chromablast technology. It does not matter if you do not see window leter if you can feel that square or you need to cut it around like on some simple Iron On inkjet paper.
> 
> But our samples do not have any window effect.
> 
> So what is nearest technology without this >>window effect<< As far I knew it is DTG printer or color laser with self weeding paper. But in that case you loose Photo look. So DTG is only way to go. And if you do not want to use prep than you need to buy solvent ink DTG.
> 
> How much it costs?


No you are wrong, I'm not mixing apples and oranges. I'm stating I don't need to prep and I have other technologies that do regular t-shirts. 

There is no need to cut around JPSS on white 50/50 and the hand is gone after the first wash. 

Since you've not used this or weed free lasers you simply can't understand. 

The other point is that after applying any prep due to extra material and labor costs I might as well just do regular sublimation. 100% poly t-shirts here have dropped a lot in cost in the last 2 years. If you are doing prep because you save costs not buying a 100% poly t-shirt you are adding costs back in for the prep and the time to do it. 

Obviously you are "pitching" a product here you are trying to sell. So no matter what other methods I use you will still make baseless claims about them.

What you are not making clear is that you have an additional process to make the prep "local", that adds costs, time, and extra labor beyond what regular sublimation requires.


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## typeflex

Oh man this is good stuff right here in this thread. I have to go back an re read everything again just to make sure I get a thorough understand, but for the most part I've gotten some answers to questions I had that made me join this forum. 

Thanks tonall who've participated btw.


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## Ali Husnain

SMB Printing said:


> Thank you for your help, I will check out the site. Is there a printer you would recommend?


Hi Dear, 

Sublimation on Pure cotton is possible now.


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## rossdv8

Despite what people say on this thread, sublimation on 100% cotton has ALWAYS been possible. 

I am still wearing T-Shirts that were sublimated many years ago. There are photos on the forum from around 3-4 years ago. And they have not faded after the initial washes, nor has the dye washed out of the cotton.

To say you cannot print the sublimation process on 100% cotton is like saying you cannot print the sublimation process on ceramic mugs, glass tiles, aluminium sheet, wood, slate or many other organic materials. The statement is simply wrong and I have brought this up so many times here.

You CANNOT SUBLIMATE onto a Ceramic Mug! But I'm sure most of us have tried it, and most of us have succeeded. Some of us have even purchased the substance to pre-coat our own mugs and other items for sublimation, but technically you CANNOT sublimate a ceramic mug. Exactly the same thing goes for 100% cotton. You CANNOT do it - but some of us do.

And, not surprisingly the method to sublimate 100% cotton is exactly the same as sublimating any other material that is not polyester. Coat it or impregnate it with polyester! It is that simple.

What is not practical YET is a 'commercially viable' permanent dye sublimation on 100% cotton. 

We all sublimate onto things like ceramic mugs, which, just as they say about 100% cotton, YOU CANNOT SUBLIMATE

Conde Systems is advertising a self weeding paper now that will allow sublimating on cotton But is is only good for graphics - not for photos.

Various chemicals work, such as the polyester spray I used to saturate the cotton. There are other methods as well. It all comes down to what you are willing to sacrifice. In my case, I have white fibres showing through the coloured fibres as the shirts are washed and tumble dried over several years.

But the colours are still vibrant. And I think that is the only reason we bother finding ways to sublimate 100% cotton. Because no matter how good your special pigment inks, or even the modern dye inks show on heat transfers, they just don't match the bright cheery colours of sublimated prints.


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## mgparrish

rossdv8 said:


> Despite what people say on this thread, sublimation on 100% cotton has ALWAYS been possible.
> 
> I am still wearing T-Shirts that were sublimated many years ago. There are photos on the forum from around 3-4 years ago. And they have not faded after the initial washes, nor has the dye washed out of the cotton.
> 
> To say you cannot print the sublimation process on 100% cotton is like saying you cannot print the sublimation process on ceramic mugs, glass tiles, aluminium sheet, wood, slate or many other organic materials. The statement is simply wrong and I have brought this up so many times here.
> 
> You CANNOT SUBLIMATE onto a Ceramic Mug! But I'm sure most of us have tried it, and most of us have succeeded. Some of us have even purchased the substance to pre-coat our own mugs and other items for sublimation, but technically you CANNOT sublimate a ceramic mug. Exactly the same thing goes for 100% cotton. You CANNOT do it - but some of us do.
> 
> And, not surprisingly the method to sublimate 100% cotton is exactly the same as sublimating any other material that is not polyester. Coat it or impregnate it with polyester! It is that simple.
> 
> *What is not practical YET is a 'commercially viable' permanent dye sublimation on 100% cotton. *
> 
> We all sublimate onto things like ceramic mugs, which, just as they say about 100% cotton, YOU CANNOT SUBLIMATE
> 
> Conde Systems is advertising a self weeding paper now that will allow sublimating on cotton But is is only good for graphics - not for photos.
> 
> Various chemicals work, such as the polyester spray I used to saturate the cotton. There are other methods as well. It all comes down to what you are willing to sacrifice. In my case, I have white fibres showing through the coloured fibres as the shirts are washed and tumble dried over several years.
> 
> But the colours are still vibrant. And I think that is the only reason we bother finding ways to sublimate 100% cotton. Because no matter how good your special pigment inks, or even the modern dye inks show on heat transfers, they just don't match the bright cheery colours of sublimated prints.



"What is not practical YET is a 'commercially viable' permanent dye sublimation on 100% cotton."


Thumbs up to that.


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## rossdv8

Once in a while it is fun to return to this thread, especially now that there are various papers and other components advertised for commercial printing of 100% cotton using dye sublimation.

First, I should ask why the hell anyone is here wanting to do Dye Sublimation on cotton? There are so many ways to decorate a 100% cotton shirt that the question seems ridiculous.

For me it is like asking why the chook crossed the road? Which came first, the chicken or the egg? Or perhaps more pertinent in this case. why did you climb that mountain? And like the dye sub on cotton thing, the answer sort of fits. Because it is there.

Some people only have a Dye Sub printer and don;t want to mess with different inks and another printer, especially working from home in a small space. Others just like the vibrant colours of a dye based ink.
I get vibrant colours on cotton because I use dye inks rather than pigment inks. But sometimes it would be nice to have absolutely consistent colours across a range of prints from polyester and cotton.

Of course, the thing that never changes is that you CANNOT SUBLIMATE 100% cotton, just as you cannot sublimate a ceramic mug or a piece of aluminium plate. But as I have pointed out here many times over the years just as you can sublimate a coating applied to cotton or to some extent, cotton that has been pre-treated. I am still wearing 100% cotton shirts that were treated, sublimated and shown on this forum in several years ago - and those shirts have not washed out, despite being hard worn and hot washed and tumbled dried hundreds of times.

However, as mentioned in the post before - it is NOT COMMERCIALLY VIABLE.

One of my old experiments however might be. I was going through the 'old rags box' and found some of my old Dys Sub on Cotton failures. One of them though is worth further investigation.

A few years back I was concentrating on, and having success with saturating cotton with a liquid polymer, drying it, then sublimating to the dried shirt. It worked, but was time consuming, smelly, and not commercially viable.

But I also reasoned that Heat Transfer Paper probably used a polymer film to seal the ink. So I played around with printing a image onto heat transfer paper using Dye Sublimation Ink. I had been playing with pressing the result onto cotton at various pressures and temperatures, but the peel was always rough and patchy. What I did find though was that washing had about the same effect as washing an ordinary heat transfer. Very little real change. So I decided to revisit the idea.

I believe my problem with rough peeling when hot might be from pressing for 40 seconds rather than the recommended 30 seconds for that paper. I wanted to give the dye a chance to get into the polymer film and the colours a chance to work. Looking at the result I think maybe it would work at 30 seconds as the longer time seems to have cooked the colours a bit dark.

The hot peel was rough and patchy again. So I repeated the print and cold peeled it. The result is in the photo. 

The top image on the left shirt is sublimated into heat transfer paper hot peeled and hot washed and hot tumble dried. No difference after the wash and dry. The bottom image on the left shirt is the same thing but cold peeled. I have yet to wash it, but there's no reason it should lose colour if the rough patchy peel didn;t. The right shirt is just the same image in polyester for somparison.

I'll update after a few hot washes and hot tumble dries. I'm expecting it to fade like a normal heat transfer after that sort of abuse. I'm hoping it won't be worse, and that the dye will have sublimated into the polymer, just as it does into the coating on a ceramic mug.


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## sinGN

Cotton t-shirt are not dedicated t-shirt for sublimation printing, sublimation process will only work on polyester rich fabrics. So more polyester in t-shirt better quality of the print. Now a days polymer powder is one of the powder used to cover image printed on sublimation RICOH printer and special SUBLIcotton paper and then transfer it to 100% cotton fabric as we did on sublimation tshirt.


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## Soumya

Please send me details of chromablast ink 
Thank you in advance.


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## splathead

Soumya said:


> Please send me details of chromablast ink
> Thank you in advance.


https://www.sawgrassink.com/Products/Inks/ChromaBlast/ChromaBlast-HD-Inks


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