# Black ink NOT Black



## hawaiianphatboy (Apr 28, 2008)

Aloha, I am pretty new to sublimation, and have been trying to get it right. I have been attempting to sublimate 15oz coffee mugs that I purchased from ProWorld. I am using Cobra sublimation inks in my Epson WF-7110. I am using the "AL" settings, which I believe are for hard substrates as apposed to the "Poly" settings. I am using a 3D Press, with the silicone wrap around the mug. I have tried pressing at 210C for 10, 15, and even 20 minutes with not much decent results. My black ink is coming out like an ugly brown color. The profiles I am using are from Cobra Ink. I have tried various types of sublimation paper (cant tell you where i got each one, they were purchased from various vendors, not sure where I got each), but have also tried the Tex Print brand which I purchased from Pro World. I have had very good results when pressing with my clam shell heat press on polyester items but can't seem to figure out why it just wont work with these mugs. I am a very small home based business that is attempting to add sublimation to my line of available products and to be used as promotional items. I cant afford to go through 24 mugs which cost me almost as much for the items as it does for shipping, over and over again. I have provided some pics of my two recent attempts, however this has been the same results on over 10 mugs that I have already tried. Any help would be greatly appreciated.


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## ZO6 KLR (Jan 8, 2013)

Ro, it looks like your dwell time is too long. I can't really quote a dwell time for this application as I am not familiar with using an oven. When we use our press, it is around 2 minutes. I'd reduce your dwell time by at least half to start. The brown color you see is the black scorching as the time/temp is too much.


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## Logomotive (Sep 8, 2012)

Your temperature is too hot and your dwell time is too long. We do mugs at 385f for 3 minutes. Always check your mug suppliers recommendations for printing. When I first started doing mugs I through several out. It is all part of the learning curve.


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## JYA (Jun 2, 2008)

ZO6 KLR said:


> Ro, it looks like your dwell time is too long. I can't really quote a dwell time for this application as I am not familiar with using an oven. When we use our press, it is around 2 minutes. I'd reduce your dwell time by at least half to start. The brown color you see is the black scorching as the time/temp is too much.


 Maybe he should use an iron... #justsayin


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## Schwabby (Mar 9, 2006)

It has been a long time since I have done mugs but I do remember that is was only a minute or two, not the long times you said you used. I would start at the low end first, maybe 3 minutes. 

Another recommendation.....keep a notebook with which papers you use, times you used, product you used, etc....in the long run it will be much more cost effective. If you do mugs one week and then don't do another set for a couple of weeks you will forget everything you learned. Also having formulas in a notebook will help if you ever have someone come in and help. Less training time.....


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## skdave (Apr 11, 2008)

time and temp. issue Black turns brown when over cooked.


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## hawaiianphatboy (Apr 28, 2008)

WOW! thank you all for your quick responses. I was assuming that it was "turning" brown because it was not cooked long enough. That is why I kept going longer and not shorter. Good to know. I was using the recommended temp and dwell times from Pro World and when it was coming out brown, that is when I attempted to fix it by going longer. I appreciate everyone's help and I will definitely try shortening my time. Greatly appreciate all the advice. Aloha and Mahalo.


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## hawaiianphatboy (Apr 28, 2008)

I am trying again, and I understand that black turns brown when burnt. However, what happens if it is a very light color brown, does that mean that the ink is not transferring at all? I have lowered my temp and shortened the dwell time, however still not getting good results. I am now getting a very faint design as if it was not being pressed enough. Totally frustrating, by the time i figure this out I will be spending even more money ordering and shipping usable blanks. Thanks again guys.


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## skdave (Apr 11, 2008)

What are your cmyk black numbers?


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## hawaiianphatboy (Apr 28, 2008)

Ok, here are my recent results. Still not sure what the H377 I am doing wrong. Any advice and suggestions would be greatly appreciated.


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## hawaiianphatboy (Apr 28, 2008)

forgive my ignorance, but where would i find that in Photoshop? 


skdave said:


> What are your cmyk black numbers?


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## Schwabby (Mar 9, 2006)

Double Click on your color palette box down in the lower left.
It is possible that you don't have a true black. It should be #000000 for the hexidecimal color.


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## BRC (Mar 27, 2007)

you can get the color numbers by clicking on the eyedropper and selecting the area you want the numbers for. If you are using Cobra inks and an Epson printer you should be working in RGB not CMYK because the colors will be different than what's on the screen when you print, black usually comes out lighter. The RGB value for total black shoud be R0 G0 B0. Since you re using a 3d press your time and temp will be different than a regular mug press. The last pictures were definitely undercooked.


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## hawaiianphatboy (Apr 28, 2008)

I checked the black and it was at 000000. I also noticed that when i kept playing with the heater, that apparently the top and bottom heating elements were not always on together. I think i missed that when I didnt read the instructions...lol. Anyway, i was able to get the colors darker again after reducing the dwell time, however I am still trying to work on the exact amount of time needed to get it to be a solid black instead of a dark brown.


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## chinasubpaper (Aug 27, 2015)

is there much ink residue on the paper after the transfer ? If there's no , than it is not the transfer yield problem. Must be the wrong operation .


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## carpediemandmore (Feb 4, 2013)

skdave said:


> What are your cmyk black numbers?


Dave, i also am thinking the same looks like some cmyk related problem brown is too light in tone if over cooking was suppose to be the issue then we might could expect dark brown tone the tone is lighter. What do you think?


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## Logomotive (Sep 8, 2012)

Have you tried printing this design on another substrate? If it prints ok onto polyester than you know it's not an ink issue.


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## bpfohler (Jun 7, 2009)

One of the reasons I'm considering leaving Cobra inks. Blacks are brown, blues re purple.


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## freebird1963 (Jan 21, 2007)

bpfohler said:


> One of the reasons I'm considering leaving Cobra inks. Blacks are brown, blues re purple.


Its not the ink. Its your color management or colors used. 
Use RGB not CMYK also. Unless using RIP or wide format.


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## bpfohler (Jun 7, 2009)

My color management is fine and I never had an issue with other sublimation inks.
Do a search and you'll find I'm not the only one


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

freebird1963 said:


> Its not the ink. Its your color management or colors used.
> Use RGB not CMYK also. Unless using RIP or wide format.


100% Dead on


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

bpfohler said:


> "My color management is fine and I never had an issue with other sublimation inks.
> Do a search and you'll find I'm not the only one"
> 
> One of the reasons I'm considering leaving Cobra inks. Blacks are brown, blues re purple.



Using Cobra inks, my blacks are not brown and my blues are not purple.

Almost everyone new has issues with color and color management, and it is not specific to Cobra. I have helped many with such issues here.

Only people with issues post about color problems, the vast majority don't come here and post out of the blue "my colors are good" (the majority of users) so you don't find those when you "search".


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

bpfohler said:


> One of the reasons I'm considering leaving Cobra inks. Blacks are brown, blues re purple.



From your other post

"Our first printer was a WF1100 with Artanium bulk inks" ...

"We did a job with our previous set up that had a royal blue background and no matter how many adjustments we make I either get a dull blue or purple."

Many years using Artanium I can guarantee their "K" is not black, it has a purple tint to it. 

Switching ink brands and expecting identical results with old artwork is unrealistic.

I switched away from Art inks to Cobra many years ago and had no choice but to tweak existing customer files as they were re-ordered.

I also had to tweak all my artwork when I switched from SG Sublijet IQ to Artanium inks years before that. 

I don't know when you got your Cobra inks. They improved the black from CS/4.0 going to CD/4.1 and now have a new set out (which I haven't tried yet) called CS/4.2.

I'm using CS/4.0 and have no color issues. The black you have to be careful with in CS/4.0 and I haven't tried the 4.1 Black yet. Most of my stuff is from artists and photographers so I don't print much true K black.


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## Dekzion (May 18, 2015)

@Ro, you dont have to use a new mug each test, you can cut a small piece of print and tape it on and press time after time, (on a blank area) as the gloss is polyester and doesn't go anywhere or wear out. but after about 50 presses it does start to turn yellow, (I know this because that's what's happened to an old mug that is in the press to pre heat it and the image on it is half faded now too)
you could also create an image (jpg) in two colours (black and white not greyscale) in your design prog because you can't get any blacker than that. 
settings for mug press? 180c for 200 seconds. cool in boiling water then cold and it's job done.


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## bpfohler (Jun 7, 2009)

mgparrish said:


> From your other post
> 
> "Our first printer was a WF1100 with Artanium bulk inks" ...
> 
> ...


Your just picking out pieces of my previous post to support your theory, if you read the entire post it said i never had problems with Artanium ink colors but since I switched to Cobra my royal blue is purple. 

I've tried to "Tweak" my file to obtain royal blue but after 2 hours of test prints I gave up. My customers expect repeatability. If I print a mug with royal blue it needs to be royal blue every time I print it. If that means spending more on a ink that gives me better results than that's what I'll do.


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## bpfohler (Jun 7, 2009)

Here is my previous post MGPARRISH

Our first printer was a WF1100 with Artanium bulk inks, when that printer died we bought a WF 7610 and installed Cobra inks.

The price of Cobra inks was incredible so I really wanted to like them but we've had so many problems I'm thinking of biting the bullet and going back to Artanium.

We did a job with our previous set up that had a royal blue background and no matter how many adjustments we make I either get a dull blue or purple.

If you read it it says we bought a Wf 7610 with Cobra inks. That's the part you neglected in your previous post.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

bpfohler said:


> Your just picking out pieces of my previous post to support your theory, if you read the entire post it said i never had problems with Artanium ink colors but since I switched to Cobra my royal blue is purple.
> 
> I've tried to "Tweak" my file to obtain royal blue but after 2 hours of test prints I gave up. My customers expect repeatability. If I print a mug with royal blue it needs to be royal blue every time I print it. If that means spending more on a ink that gives me better results than that's what I'll do.


I never said _you_ had issues with Artainium 

What I am stating is that you cannot switch inks and expect things to stay the same with previous art. If you cannot tweak to get a royal blue color I don't know what to tell you. I can tweak to get any color in the inks gamut.

My statement about Artainium is for others benefit, it has a horrible eggplant K black. I am also stating that based on extensive experience with both inks, Artainium and Cobra, Cobra is superior in quality and in price. Hands down. If you can't get the colors you need with Cobra's ink then it means YOU cannot get the colors you need, doesn't mean that others can't.  Any chance YOU might have set something wrong?

Instead of really trying to get any help you make one post maybe 6 days ago and when no one answers right away you dismiss it as inferior product and start bashing it. 

Later I'll post my fabric transferred color test photo. I can hit any color except getting into neons and such that are outside the ink gamut of course. Royal blue is no issue for me.

And if I didn't quote exactly everything you stated it doesn't mean I twisted the context around.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

bpfohler said:


> Here is my previous post MGPARRISH
> 
> Our first printer was a WF1100 with Artanium bulk inks, when that printer died we bought a WF 7610 and installed Cobra inks.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure what your point is? So what I didn't mention you had bought the WF7610 (even though I know you did) it's clear I know you had the Cobra inks.

I stated 

"I don't know when you got your Cobra inks. They improved the black from CS/4.0 going to CD/4.1 and now have a new set out (which I haven't tried yet) called CS/4.2."

So I stated you had Cobra inks now didn't I? Forgive me I didn't mention the model. Seriously? 

None of this has anything to do with your issue.

I suggest if you want help here post your screen shots of your graphic app setup and the Epson driver settings.

You ask for help but offer no info except to complain and make a broad brush statement leading others to think the product is bad.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

hawaiianphatboy said:


> Ok, here are my recent results. Still not sure what the H377 I am doing wrong. Any advice and suggestions would be greatly appreciated.



As Logomotive has stated get some poly fabric and press your design on that.

You clearly have a pressing issue based on your photos. 

Mugs are the most difficult items to get the colors right since the temp and dwell is critical for that.

So the concept is to get the easiest material to transfer onto and eliminate the pressing dwell/tem variable. Go to Walmart or Joanne fabric store and get some cheap polyester fabric it comes on rolls and sold by the yard. Poly fabric from Walmart 390 - 400 degs 50 - 60 seconds (give or take). It not nearly as critical as mugs are.

Get a lot of it as you can use it proofing.

I suspect that you may have both setup/color management issues AND pressing issues specific to mugs.

That brown is not the color of Cobras inks. Clearly there is a pressing issue.

If you get the fabric then you can see where your color management "baseline" is. Once you can get your mug to reasonably match the pressed fabric _then you have your pressing issue resolved_.

If the color is still not close enough on your fabric then that is another issue to be solved a different way. But once you can match the fabric look onto the mug then you are dialed in on your mug.


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## bpfohler (Jun 7, 2009)

My only issue is after running several color test on various fabric (metal, ceramic, cloth...) I still can't get the colors I need, including blacks not being dark enough and royal blue coming out purple. If other people can that's great but I can achieve the colors I want with a different brand ink without changing every file I have.
With Artanium the colors matched perfectly to the files I drew using my RGB pallet in Corel, with Cobra the colors aren't even close. Do I hate the price of Artanium, you bet but I've spent hours researching and testing and I still haven't been able to produce a rich vibrant Royal blue.
Sublimation is not our core business so the bottom line is consistency, if I can't produce a color the customer wants then I'm screwed.
I never said Corba was bad ink and I never "cried" about my problem, I stated we weren't getting the results we wanted and we we're switching.
And if it makes you feel better I have called Cobra inks and I still wasn't able to fix the issue.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

bpfohler said:


> My only issue is after running several color test on various fabric (metal, ceramic, cloth...) I still can't get the colors I need, including blacks not being dark enough and royal blue coming out purple. If other people can that's great but I can achieve the colors I want with a different brand ink without changing every file I have.
> With Artanium the colors matched perfectly to the files I drew using my RGB pallet in Corel, with Cobra the colors aren't even close. Do I hate the price of Artanium, you bet but I've spent hours researching and testing and I still haven't been able to produce a rich vibrant Royal blue.
> Sublimation is not our core business so the bottom line is consistency, if I can't produce a color the customer wants then I'm screwed.
> I never said Corba was bad ink and I never "cried" about my problem, I stated we weren't getting the results we wanted and we we're switching.
> And if it makes you feel better I have called Cobra inks and I still wasn't able to fix the issue.


Herein lies the problem.

First of all this is not your thread. If we take what you state at face value then the *OP should just throw in the towel and throw away his Cobra inks and get Artanium inks*.

Many here are trying methodically to help the other gentleman and have nothing to gain from it.

While you didn't explicitly state Cobra's inks were bad ink and you never "cried" about your problem, parse my statements as you wish, you stated specifically 

"One of the reasons I'm considering leaving Cobra inks. Blacks are brown, blues re purple."

That statement is _affirmative_ you state "Blacks are Brown". The implication is clear, _your statement clearly implies the inks are at fault_. And you assume his problem is the same as your problem, yet many here that are experienced with mugs right away suspect his press dwell/temp.

I have been sublimation since it was first possible and I can firmly state that I have never seen any inks cause such a gory black unless they are expired. 

If you want help with your problem I suggest that you post your settings and screen in YOUR thread and not throw any curve balls in here that distract from others helping the OP here to METHODICALLY resolve his issue.


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## bpfohler (Jun 7, 2009)

I simply offered my opinion of Cobra inks much the same way you did when you said they were "superior in quality and price".
Note to self:
No opinions allowed!


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## hawaiianphatboy (Apr 28, 2008)

Thanks, I will try that. I thought the mugs were kind of like the dog tags, in which you could only heat them up and press them once. When i was doing dog tags, i would try to do one side at a time, and was told you could not, they had to be done at the same time. I figured the mugs were the same. Thanks, that just saved me a lot of money.
Mahalo.+


Dekzion said:


> @Ro, you dont have to use a new mug each test, you can cut a small piece of print and tape it on and press time after time, (on a blank area) as the gloss is polyester and doesn't go anywhere or wear out. but after about 50 presses it does start to turn yellow, (I know this because that's what's happened to an old mug that is in the press to pre heat it and the image on it is half faded now too)
> you could also create an image (jpg) in two colours (black and white not greyscale) in your design prog because you can't get any blacker than that.
> settings for mug press? 180c for 200 seconds. cool in boiling water then cold and it's job done.


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## hawaiianphatboy (Apr 28, 2008)

Mark, if I am using the Cobra profiles, would I still be required to make additional changes to that? There is where I may be a little out of my league. I am hoping that if someone who has had the same issues came up with a better profile, then I would love to have it if you are willing to share. Or should I assume that all printers are different and would need different tweeking? Thanks again for all that have chimed in on this post, I do really appreciate it. I didn't expect it to get heated. I know some people choose different inks and printers for different reasons, I chose Cobra because it was more reasonably priced and I could use them with a printer that was reasonably priced. I would just like to get it to work, whether it is my methods or the ink and heating process, I am not sure. I have come here to learn, and have done so so far and for that I appreciate everyone's input.. Aloha and Mahalo


freebird1963 said:


> Its not the ink. Its your color management or colors used.
> Use RGB not CMYK also. Unless using RIP or wide format.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

bpfohler said:


> I simply offered my opinion of Cobra inks much the same way you did when you said they were "superior in quality and price".
> Note to self:
> No opinions allowed!


You are not helping, you are trolling.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

hawaiianphatboy said:


> Mark, if I am using the Cobra profiles, would I still be required to make additional changes to that? There is where I may be a little out of my league. I am hoping that if someone who has had the same issues came up with a better profile, then I would love to have it if you are willing to share. Or should I assume that all printers are different and would need different tweeking? Thanks again for all that have chimed in on this post, I do really appreciate it. I didn't expect it to get heated. I know some people choose different inks and printers for different reasons, I chose Cobra because it was more reasonably priced and I could use them with a printer that was reasonably priced. I would just like to get it to work, whether it is my methods or the ink and heating process, I am not sure. I have come here to learn, and have done so so far and for that I appreciate everyone's input.. Aloha and Mahalo


I'm not Mark but as I recall he isn't using Cobra or that printer, I think a different printer and ink set perhaps. His remarks are correct though. Mark please correct if I am mistaken about your printer/inks.

I have the WF7110 and Cobra inks and I can help you. I have the CS/4.0 inks

if you refer to this page ...

https://www.cobraink.com/ink/4_color_Sublimation.htm

I need to know which inks you have.

Also, which profile(s) are you using? And please post screenshots of your graphic program setup and epson driver setup.

As I mentioned in a previous post I think you have pressing issues on your mugs and possibly a setup issue, both can cause you to have color issues. Mugs are the hardest think to do and pressing temp/dwell issues can cause color to be bad.

This program is free and will allow you to post screenshots of your setup.

The Screen Capture Utility

http://www.gadwin.com/download/PrintScreen_Setup.zip

You also need some blank poly fabric. Even if you have both pressing problems AND color setup issues you can at least be able to dial in your mug press settings if you use blank poly as a starting point as another here had suggested.

Even if the color may not be perfect with the poly fabric and is due to profile settings etc, at least if you can get the mug to match fairly close to the fabric after pressing, then you are getting the mug pressing more correct. Looks to me the mug pressing is way way off.

So let's figure if one or 2 problems and address those as separate matters.


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## Dekzion (May 18, 2015)

hawaiianphatboy said:


> Thanks, I will try that. I thought the mugs were kind of like the dog tags, in which you could only heat them up and press them once. When i was doing dog tags, i would try to do one side at a time, and was told you could not, they had to be done at the same time. I figured the mugs were the same. Thanks, that just saved me a lot of money.
> Mahalo.+


That's okay Buddy, and another trick? you can lift a corner of your transfer if you're unsure of timing to see if the colours are coming out okay, and if they're not drop the transfer again and press for another 30 seconds, (everything is already up to temperature) keep doing that until the ink has come off the paper. for each thirty seconds add 10 seconds to the original timing.
If all else fails get a Ricoh running sawgrass inks and powerdriver, throw your image onto the workspace, print it through the powerdriver and press it. because if you want to ride in a Rolls, don't buy a VW Golf.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

Here are my images using the profiles I found to give the best results. Same printer as OP WF7110 and using Cobra's inks.

Black is black and no issues with my blues. Printed on white poly cloth from Walmart.

Source image is here ...

http://www.gballard.net/dl/PDI_TargetFolderONLY.zip


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