# Does any one think dtg printers have a long way left to be developed before they will be used widespread?



## funkytshirts (Jul 26, 2010)

Does any one think dtg printers have a long way left to be developed before they will be used widespread


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## FatKat Printz (Dec 26, 2008)

*Re: What DTG machine do you own and how did you make your decision on it *



funkytshirts said:


> Does any one think dtg printers have a long way left to be developed before they will be used widespread


depends on the company and printer..

its not all the end-users fault but knowing proper maintenance techniques and pretreatment is more than half the battle and have the proper ink delivery system is the next.

some printers are done developing just improving software but the printer is still the same, some are just done and figure all is well, we are selling that's all the matters and then there are some that's a different post , for a different day.

But software is really the main thing right now, we have 2 DTG Kiosk 2 (stopped making them years ago) I use the same software as the Viper. So development as far as, printing limitations (not as vast as screen print) yes we have aways to go. But printers..eh' depends


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## ROYAL SAVAGE (Feb 18, 2009)

*Re: What DTG machine do you own and how did you make your decision on it *



funkytshirts said:


> Does any one think dtg printers have a long way left to be developed before they will be used widespread


DTG in the US is the fastest growing apparel decorating medium. There is a trend of larger companies getting involved. I'm talking about the biggest names in the business. The proper industrial set-ups are getting a lot of play. THe table top market is similar to the manual press market it will always be what it is.


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## WholesalePrint (Sep 23, 2008)

*Re: What DTG machine do you own and how did you make your decision on it *



> The proper industrial set-ups are getting a lot of play. THe table top market is similar to the manual press market it will always be what it is.


I feel the same to be true


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## kevrokr (Feb 26, 2007)

*Re: What DTG machine do you own and how did you make your decision on it *



ROYAL SAVAGE said:


> THe table top market is similar to the manual press market it will always be what it is.



I know this is not true.


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## Don-ColDesi (Oct 18, 2006)

*Re: What DTG machine do you own and how did you make your decision on it *



ROYAL SAVAGE said:


> DTG in the US is the fastest growing apparel decorating medium. There is a trend of larger companies getting involved. I'm talking about the biggest names in the business. The proper industrial set-ups are getting a lot of play. THe table top market is similar to the manual press market it will always be what it is.


Actually I would take you to task on this - in terms of percentage growth I would say that rhinestone decoration is the fastest growing. Direct to garment is still growing at a good clip though. And, as strange as it may sound, the largest companies in the direct to garment marketplace are actually moving away from the "proper industrial" machines and into the table top machines for better image quality.


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## Don-ColDesi (Oct 18, 2006)

As the marketplace matures we will eventually see more non-traditional players in the marketplace - companies like Kinko's, Walmart and the like. We have witnessed this in the sign industry with the advent of the large format solvent & ecosolvent printers - now it is more about graphics abilities and less about application techniques. Same will hold true in the direct to garment marketplace.


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## ROYAL SAVAGE (Feb 18, 2009)

*Re: What DTG machine do you own and how did you make your decision on it *



Don-ColDesi said:


> Actually I would take you to task on this - in terms of percentage growth I would say that rhinestone decoration is the fastest growing. Direct to garment is still growing at a good clip though. And, as strange as it may sound, the largest companies in the direct to garment marketplace are actually moving away from the "proper industrial" machines and into the table top machines for better image quality.


Take me to task huh? Wow! I was referring to printing. What you don't understand about the DTG market and industrial printing is that Cafe Press and the like are not what I'm referring to. There is another segment of the market that does not sell tees on the web. The licensed apparel market is something that people overlook. It may be a market that you are unaware of. 

Rhinestoning has limited appeal to most consumers. You eliminate 50% of the market - men - with rhinsestoning. Talk about slow thats worse than DTG. I have close friends who do volume rhinestones. That process has it's place as well.


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## SickPuppy (Aug 10, 2009)

I think the DTG industry is growing and has a great deal of room for improvement. I think the next big breakthrough is going to be the ink. Someone is going to solve the white underbase issue. 

White ink that will not separate and will not clog print heads. 

What I think we will see some years down the road is a process for dark shirts that removes the color from the print area using some kind of chemical process totally eliminating the need for white ink and pretreatment.


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## ROYAL SAVAGE (Feb 18, 2009)

SickPuppy said:


> I think the DTG industry is growing and has a great deal of room for improvement. I think the next big breakthrough is going to be the ink. Someone is going to solve the white underbase issue.
> 
> White ink that will not separate and will not clog print heads.
> 
> What I think we will see some years down the road is a process for dark shirts that removes the color from the print area using some kind of chemical process totally eliminating the need for white ink and pretreatment.


THere are discharge process in ink-jetting but not for t-shirts. In-fact there are people ink-jetting sustances such as wood to create texture. This is all experimantal but telling. 

We printed at least 15 liters of white ink this week with no downtime on our print heads.


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## Don-ColDesi (Oct 18, 2006)

Thanks for your reply. I still stand by the growth statement. I manage the digital products division of one of the largest direct to garment distributors in the world, I have been selling equipment, supplies and software to the apparel and sign industries for over 20 years so I have a pretty good grasp on the trends in the marketplace, not that you don't, I happen to see it from the equipment & supplies perspective - you see it from the end product production perspective. No doubt that the licensed apparel marketplace is a respectable percentage of the imprinted marketplace, though I think you may also underestimate the online marketplace.

Back to rhinestone decoration - you stated - apparel decoration medium - in your original post. I was simply following your lead. I don't question that digital direct to garment is the fastest growing apparel _imprinting_ method in the US market today. As mentioned above I still stand by the statement that rhinestone decoration is growing at a faster percentage pace than any other apparel decoration method.

PS - Just read your bio on your website - you got me by a few years, though from a different angle. You've sold over 20 million t-hsirts, I've helped thousands of apparel decorators and graphics professionals to grow their businesses. The real question at hand was whether direct to garment was still a long way from being used widespread. The answer is no, personally I see it as already being widespread in use. Every year since 2006 direct to garment printer unit sales have outpaced new screen print press sales. I'd call that some pretty solid evidence.


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## SickPuppy (Aug 10, 2009)

ROYAL SAVAGE said:


> THere are discharge process in ink-jetting but not for t-shirts. In-fact there are people ink-jetting sustances such as wood to create texture. This is all experimantal but telling.
> 
> We printed at least 15 liters of white ink this week with no downtime on our print heads.


I think what we are going to see in the DGT industry is a discharge type of chemical that is applied using a print head then activated using a laser. It would be a 2 pass process. The discharge would be applied in one pass and activated by the laser, then the color ink would be applied with the second pass. 

The brightness of the white will be controlled by the amount of discharge fluid and the amount of time the laser is applied. This would allow the printer to go from bright white to various gray scales.


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## Don-ColDesi (Oct 18, 2006)

SickPuppy said:


> I think what we are going to see in the DGT industry is a discharge type of chemical that is applied using a print head then activated using a laser. It would be a 2 pass process. The discharge would be applied in one pass and activated by the laser, then the color ink would be applied with the second pass.
> 
> The brightness of the white will be controlled by the amount of discharge fluid and the amount of time the laser is applied. This would allow the printer to go from bright white to various gray scales.


Interesting concept. Mimaki used to sell a discharge direct to garment printer. One challenge was the chemicals required for discharge gave California rats cancer, the second was that not all shirts are created (dyed) equally, thus inconsistent results - unless one is willing to settle on a limited pallette if "discharge ready" garments.

Sounds like you have some insifht into this perspective - care to share more info with us?


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## hazeremover (Mar 31, 2011)

SickPuppy said:


> What I think we will see some years down the road is a process for dark shirts that removes the color from the print area using some kind of chemical process totally eliminating the need for white ink and pretreatment.


That's the missing link when it comes to spot-on dtg on darks. Until that happens, direct screen holds the edge. The cost of the "industrial printers" will have to come down to a reasonable level as well. 

A few of the high volume contract printers I'm aware of, at least in the midwest, took the hefty monetary jump into a dtg with the sole purpose of gaining the ability to print full color spectrum images for short runs, usually plateauing at 75 to 100 pieces. They're making a decent profit on dtg if taken on a job per job basis but end up losing that money because they're not pounding it 40 hours a week and the ink gets sucked up from having to unclog the heads during idle times. 99.9% of their output is screen printing, 1 color up to 12 colors, so that is what they continue to do.

It's interesting to see that rhinestone decoration has returned. Maybe the web has given it the push it needed but it's always seemed to reside in the "artsy craftsy", fad realm. It was tried a few years back with limited success by several big names, Harley being one of them but died out fairly quick because of limited sales.


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## ROYAL SAVAGE (Feb 18, 2009)

Don-ColDesi said:


> Thanks for your reply. I still stand by the growth statement. I manage the digital products division of one of the largest direct to garment distributors in the world, I have been selling equipment, supplies and software to the apparel and sign industries for over 20 years so I have a pretty good grasp on the trends in the marketplace, not that you don't, I happen to see it from the equipment & supplies perspective - you see it from the end product production perspective. No doubt that the licensed apparel marketplace is a respectable percentage of the imprinted marketplace, though I think you may also underestimate the online marketplace.
> 
> Back to rhinestone decoration - you stated - apparel decoration medium - in your original post. I was simply following your lead. I don't question that digital direct to garment is the fastest growing apparel _imprinting_ method in the US market today. As mentioned above I still stand by the statement that rhinestone decoration is growing at a faster percentage pace than any other apparel decoration method.
> 
> PS - Just read your bio on your website - you got me by a few years, though from a different angle. You've sold over 20 million t-hsirts, I've helped thousands of apparel decorators and graphics professionals to grow their businesses. The real question at hand was whether direct to garment was still a long way from being used widespread. The answer is no, personally I see it as already being widespread in use. Every year since 2006 direct to garment printer unit sales have outpaced new screen print press sales. I'd call that some pretty solid evidence.


 We've got a lot of prints and supplies under belts after all these years. DTG IS in widespread use. As the technology improves and the production numbers go up we will see some real trinding in that direction. These are very interesting times in this business. There is a huge disparity in the use of the technology's capability at the moment. A few years ago having orders in the thousands was unheard of for DTG. Today we have volume orders on a regular basis. Our DTG has been busy for four years now and is getting even busier. I'm a screen printer at heart but DTG is something more than that.

All we print is black and dark tees day in and day out. A solid half days work on an automatic screen printer is three days work with DTG printing. $100.00 plastisol is $1500.00 in DTG ink. Crazy biz. Good post.


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## SickPuppy (Aug 10, 2009)

Don-ColDesi said:


> Interesting concept. Mimaki used to sell a discharge direct to garment printer. One challenge was the chemicals required for discharge gave California rats cancer, the second was that not all shirts are created (dyed) equally, thus inconsistent results - unless one is willing to settle on a limited pallette if "discharge ready" garments.
> 
> Sounds like you have some insifht into this perspective - care to share more info with us?


This was an idea that I came up with about a year ago just don't have the funds or time to develop it.

I think when the process is developed a variety of shirt manufactures will serve the industry with compatible dyes and materials.

Just think of how popular a DTG printer would be that could print on dark shirts without a white underbase and without pretreatment


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## dragonknight (May 30, 2009)

Yes, DTG Industry is spreading to many contingents right now and it is one of the fastest growing apparel decorating method, I am also exporting DTG printed T-Shirts to many countries.


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## Pvasquez (Feb 19, 2011)

ROYAL SAVAGE said:


> T The licensed apparel market is something that people overlook. It may be a market that you are unaware of.


So true...Now I understand why you run so many numbers I have a handfull of customers that have licensed designs and run their machines all day long.


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## Pvasquez (Feb 19, 2011)

SickPuppy said:


> Just think of how popular a DTG printer would be that could print on dark shirts without a white underbase and without pretreatment


Printers are already screenprinting a discharge as an underbase for larger DTG jobs now, but for the 12 or lower it's easier to digitally print the white. Your right once you take the pre-treat out of the equation then it's going to change. It will be done eventually, theres a demand for it so someone will figure it out.


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## allamerican-aeoon (Aug 14, 2007)

There will be more Digital shirt printers and machine will be faster. This year there will be 2 of $55000 plus minus machine will be introduce. These are ready and Chemical (Ink & etc) is ready to sell. Testing time now. 
Eventually single printhead (12" 14.5", 17" wide) will dominate the market. Small and super fast 5sec/shirt. Epson modifier will survive cuz of price factor. Some are moving toward to use Mutho, Mimaki and Roland to modify. All are using Epson heads . AA sells many times more NeoFlex than Flexijet this proves market is still growing and machines are getting better even to Epson modifiers. 

Rhinestone: I am the first one who introduce this machine to USA (8-9years ago) and MESA/Highland followed me. SWF east/Col-Deci starts about 2-3years ago. People were laughed at me when I introduced machines to the Shows at first time. Don is right some point. From AA's gross sale data, Rhinestone machine + Sequin Machine (hottest in fashion market) + supplies are way more exceeding NeoFlex selling amount even though this is growing while Screen printing is slowing down. AA does not have embroidery dept but I heard also declined.
Rhinestone is getting into boring stage (too many and anyone can make without big $$$) so new things are Rhinestone and Sequin combination. No lead, Children proof, Cheaper than Rhsn' No injurey to cheerleaders also 6 times faster to make it. Again, I am the first who introduce threadless sequin motif on earth but this time no one was laughed at me. Actually few mfgs are trying to following me. SWF and NC Korea and they are having hard times to avoid my patents. We all should have ability to look into future.
Discharge been used for longest time on screen printing/dtg garment but never populared cuz smells and too many side effects.


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## SickPuppy (Aug 10, 2009)

Does AA have any plans to make a larger format version of the neoflex say a 24 inch wide version. I think there would be a market for it. It would be nice to see a DTG printer with an all over print capability.


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## SickPuppy (Aug 10, 2009)

allamerican said:


> Discharge been used for longest time on screen printing/dtg garment but never populared cuz smells and too many side effects.


I think what we will see is not going to be the current discharge type of ink. It will be a new process where a chemical reaction to the laser bleaches out the dye.


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## bornover (Apr 10, 2008)

funkytshirts said:


> Does any one think dtg printers have a long way left to be developed before they will be used widespread


Back to your original question Ben. From my perspective as a small scale apparel decorator, and with my own small line of clothes, I think DTG printing has very good machines available now, but can use more development on the ink. 

I would like improvements in the ink in two areas, cost and particle settling.

As a small time operation, I don't DTG print every day nor in large numbers when I do. In fact, I have had my DTG shut down for many months now. I have a hard time getting my price point where I want it because of ink costs in DTG. And because I may not print every day, I have had serious issues with white ink clogging.

Don't get me wrong, there have been some very good improvements in ink delivery systems that have dramatically cut down problems with certain parameters that contribute to ink clogging issues. Machines have also gotten faster which is important for larger orders. Print area could use some enlargement in my opinion though.

As you read this I am waiting for new DTG ink to arrive and fire my T-Jet 2 back up. I will be testing a newer ink brand on the market (Resolute Ink) to see how it performs in my specific set of circumstances as a small time operation that does not DTG print every day.

All in all I would say DTG has come a long way and is certainly a viable and profitable technology if implemented correctly. The majority of people I hear about that are making money with it are usually companies that have newer faster machines printing every day all day. I think a few people with my type of setup are making some money as well, but are fewer and farther between.


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## allamerican-aeoon (Aug 14, 2007)

SickPuppy said:


> Does AA have any plans to make a larger format version of the neoflex say a 24 inch wide version. I think there would be a market for it. It would be nice to see a DTG printer with an all over print capability.


24" will not cut All Over print. Sleeve to Sleeve.
It is in the oven. Maybe will be served with Turkey.


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## TahoeTomahawk (Apr 12, 2006)

Alot of people are so optimistic that white ink issue will be solved soon. I wouldn't hold your breath, even in screen printing water-based printing is far more difficult to work with than plastisol. You would think it would be easier to find a solution to the white ink drying out in your screen faster than you could keep it from having jetting issues in DTG printers. I don't see that happening anytime soon. It will be like any other industry, small incremental changes and not gold over night.

P.S. If you are still having clogging and starvation issues you haven't switched to bagged ink. Last time we changed a print head was July of 09' in our Kiosk right before we switched to the Belquette Ink.


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## Pvasquez (Feb 19, 2011)

Nobody is holding their breath waiting for it to change that's why there are so many machines in the market I have a feeling something different will be introduced at the ISA in Vegas this week.

As far as waterbase printing it's not difficult if you know what your doing but you do have to modify it if your printing by hand. Other than that if there was a major issue with it I wouldn't be selling over 20 drums of it a week..


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## TahoeTomahawk (Apr 12, 2006)

Pablo, that's pretty much my point. Look at how many people have trouble printing with water based inks, just search this forum alone. With the proper understanding and environment it can be done without much difficulty, but some would call it difficult.

Same can be said for DTG printing, those with the know how print with white ink with little to no problems. 

Looking for a major advancement in the ink -should- be easier to accomplish in regular water-based inks for screen printing and I don't see that happening either.


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## Pvasquez (Feb 19, 2011)

Yeah I know but they only have trouble because of two main reasons. 1: They buy from a source that dose not give proper training or actually knows how to use it, there is a difference between the used car sales man and the guy that sells after being in the assembly line, knows the in and out of what he sells and actually believes in the product not just counting his commission etc. I mean why even ask on how to use something on a forum? Something went wrong somewhere if that's the case, am I wrong? 
2: most printers look for the best price on product, come on people you guys ***** and complain about how some garage printer undercut your price and you do the same thing. You want your customer to Value you quality and your customer service and pay the prices you put out there. Well as a supplier guess what it's the same thing we want the same thing, we want you to value our services as well, we give you the right products for your process, hold your hand doing it or in some cases save you huge money on making sure you don't make a mistake on the front end but you end up getting the cheapest things because it works and then you wonder why your having problems with something's hey you pay for what you get you buy cheap it's going to cost you more on the back end I guarantee that.


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## SickPuppy (Aug 10, 2009)

allamerican said:


> 24" will not cut All Over print. Sleeve to Sleeve.
> It is in the oven. Maybe will be served with Turkey.


I think it would if you put it in sideways the noeflex already has a long print bed.


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## Pvasquez (Feb 19, 2011)

SickPuppy said:


> I think it would if you put it in sideways the noeflex already has a long print bed.


I have a 24" but it will max out at 23.75" x 59" . Do you need to test something ? Let me know.


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## SickPuppy (Aug 10, 2009)

Pvasquez said:


> I have a 24" but it will max out at 23.75" x 59" . Do you need to test something ? Let me know.


What type of printer do you have? 

Will it do an all over print if so how does it do over the seams?


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## Pvasquez (Feb 19, 2011)

SickPuppy said:


> What type of printer do you have?
> 
> Will it do an all over print if so how does it do over the seams?


It's a Digital printer. I'm sure you know how it will do over the seams, it looks pretty good, like I said above it's max image area, it will do sleeve to sleeve no problem but how low do you need to image to be? Is it a true all over? 

I also have a 44" dye sub machine along with a heat press for all over ( the whole shirt ) dye sublimation.


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## SickPuppy (Aug 10, 2009)

Pvasquez said:


> It's a Digital printer. I'm sure you know how it will do over the seams, it looks pretty good, like I said above it's max image area, it will do sleeve to sleeve no problem but how low do you need to image to be? Is it a true all over?
> 
> I also have a 44" dye sub machine along with a heat press for all over ( the whole shirt ) dye sublimation.


All over prints using a due sub printer and heat transfer paper is not what I am looking for. The size of the heat press makes it necessary to do multiple heat presses. 

I am looking for a DTG printer that will do all over prints or near all over prints.


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## Pvasquez (Feb 19, 2011)

SickPuppy said:


> All over prints using a due sub printer and heat transfer paper is not what I am looking for. The size of the heat press makes it necessary to do multiple heat presses.
> 
> I am looking for a DTG printer that will do all over prints or near all over prints.


I know I'm just referring to what is the exact size of the image your looking to do? A XXL is what, 38" x 28"? then I can't do it but let's say you have an image that is 22" wide that falls beyond the sleeves by an inch or so and you need it to go 30" so it fall off the bottom of the seam then this I'd usually call it a Jumbo print which it will do no problem. So I'm sorry, I guess it's a printer that will do jumbo. Thats what I use it for mainly, the trend for all over is dying out now everyone wants Jumbo. Is this what your seeing? Are you still getting all over requests out there?


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## SickPuppy (Aug 10, 2009)

Pvasquez said:


> Jumbo print


Thats what I am look for, a jumbo print. I am thinking about purchasing a Neoflex but it is only 17" wide so that means about a 16.5" print area.


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## Pvasquez (Feb 19, 2011)

SickPuppy said:


> Thats what I am look for, a jumbo print. I am thinking about purchasing a Neoflex but it is only 17" wide so that means about a 16.5" print area.


You may want to wait a few more months, this is a converted 7880 that takes too long to print one shirt, but pretty soon there will be a new one that will be about 3 to 5 times faster. I happen to use this one for more R&D but offer a service for short run Jumbo. Still trying to get all support dialed in, don't want to sell something that will be problematic for printers, or go to market too soon. We want to do it right.


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## Pvasquez (Feb 19, 2011)

SickPuppy said:


> Thats what I am look for, a jumbo print. I am thinking about purchasing a Neoflex but it is only 17" wide so that means about a 16.5" print area.


I don't know man but that Neoflex looks pretty sweet. If you have a market for DTG won't it make sense to get that unit now and farm out the big stuff? What's the ratio from small to big that you need to print?


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## allamerican-aeoon (Aug 14, 2007)

SickPuppy said:


> Thats what I am look for, a jumbo print. I am thinking about purchasing a Neoflex but it is only 17" wide so that means about a 16.5" print area.


You can get 17 inch in full. Exact same as Epson spec. But becareful with perfect positioning of laydown platen.


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## Pvasquez (Feb 19, 2011)

allamerican said:


> You can get 17 inch in full. Exact same as Epson spec. But becareful with perfect positioning of laydown platen.


Maybe you can help me I have another printer that's the 4880 style you say you can print the 17" in full? Ok how? it won't print boarderless, only upto 16.73 how do you get it to print the full 17"? Is there a setting I'm missing? I said something nice about your unit above, pm me the answer if you don't want to post it, or you can show the audience that your a good guy to work with


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## JohnL (Nov 23, 2010)

We have been able to achieve results greater than 17" with the epson 4880. However these results are unstable. The max width we were able to achieve proper registration was 17". The clearance of the 48xx series platform is 18" so 17 inches is definitely possible. Nothing we did special it is just the nature of the printer.


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## Pvasquez (Feb 19, 2011)

JohnL said:


> We have been able to achieve results greater than 17" with the epson 4880. However these results are unstable. The max width we were able to achieve proper registration was 17". The clearance of the 48xx series platform is 18" so 17 inches is definitely possible. Nothing we did special it is just the nature of the printer.


I think I know what you mean, won't be able to try it until tomorrow but I guess it's a rip issue for me, I have not got a call for 17" at all just curious as I tried it once but failed.


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## allamerican-aeoon (Aug 14, 2007)

Pablo,
Sometime common sense is better than drop off Harvard. Epson says 17" and you are singing less.


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## Pvasquez (Feb 19, 2011)

allamerican said:


> Pablo,
> Sometime common sense is better than drop off Harvard. Epson says 17" and you are singing less.


What? They say 17" I know I just guess my rip won't allow it, now I guess I look like a fool.. Lol


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## Stitch-Up (May 26, 2007)

SickPuppy said:


> Thats what I am look for, a jumbo print. I am thinking about purchasing a Neoflex but it is only 17" wide so that means about a 16.5" print area.


It's also 42" long (print size).


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