# Jersey Numbers peeling off...HELP!!!



## wedgees (Aug 22, 2011)

I need help ASAP. I have not been able to successfully get numbers to stay on Football Jersey's without peeling off. I have been in contact with Stahl's mutli times and they say I am doing everything correct. I have changed the brand of Jersey, the material from ThermoFlim, thermoGrip, Econo, and CadFlex. I should not be able to start an edge and pull the number completely off the jersey, right?

Last year I printed 60 jerseys for a Little league and over half fell off or were hanging off after the first game. This was done with Thermoflim. They have come back to have us do this years (I know right, who would have thought they would come back), and I have tested and tested and I got the Cadflex to stay the best, until I did one actual jersey this Friday. I took it home washed it and now I was able to peel the number completely off the front and the back. I am thinking that when I did the test it stayed because I had already washed the jersey from a previous test and that is why it stayed the first time.

These are due this Thursday. I am looking at ordering the ink transfer numbers, (I don't like how they hold up, but at least they don't fall off on the field). If anyone has a suggestion and can contact & talk with me today, please email me at [email protected] with your number and I will contact you. or call me at 304-753-4114.

Thanks,
Missy


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## JZH4383 (Jan 30, 2014)

We use ThermoFlex Xtra for any product that is not 100% cotton. I'm assuming the football jerseys you are pressing onto are polyester, and therefore need a heat sensitive CAD material used on them. Our press is set at around 315 degrees, we use firm pressure, press once for 5 seconds, peel off carrier, and then press for 10 seconds while the vinyl is covered with a Teflon sheet. 

Are the numbers you are using pre-cut? If so, I would have to guess your temperature is off somewhere, or the numbers you are using are not meant to be pressed onto the material the jerseys are made out of. 

Hope you can get it sorted out soon. Good luck!


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## binkspot (Jun 12, 2013)

Are you doing it correctly? I mean no malice but the temp could be wrong. If the heat press is set at let's say 315 the actual temp on the heating element may be 290. Double check with a temp gun. I have one press that the actual temp and temp setting were off 15 degrees, simple adjustment fixed that. Another one of our presses the temp varies across the element 10-15 degrees, we know where the hot spot is and continue to use it. Another issue is true pressure, are you getting the proper pressure. If it has a read out it could be wrong and need to be calibrated. We always confirm the digital readout is the actual temp before starting a job.


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## wedgees (Aug 22, 2011)

We are going by the instructions from Stahls. 305 for 15 sec. Do you think that removing the carrier and then using the teflon would make a difference? If so, why?
They told us at first we were over baking it because we were using firm pressure instead on me to lighter. We are doing on 100% poly.

We have had the problem with one color, two color, pre-cut and cutting in house. 

Thanks for your input.


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## royster13 (Aug 14, 2007)

What jerseys are using?.....Is there a chance they are not the material they are being sold as?.....Or is there some kind of protective treatment that repels the heat transfer adhesive?.....


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## JZH4383 (Jan 30, 2014)

wedgees said:


> We are going by the instructions from Stahls. 305 for 15 sec. Do you think that removing the carrier and then using the teflon would make a difference? If so, why?
> They told us at first we were over baking it because we were using firm pressure instead on me to lighter. We are doing on 100% poly.
> 
> We have had the problem with one color, two color, pre-cut and cutting in house.
> ...


According to the Stahls website, Thermofilm/ThermoGrip/Econo are all meant to be pressed at 330 degrees, so if you're pressing at 305, that may be the problem. Not sure why they are telling you something different on the phone than what's on their website.

I always use Teflon at all times when pressing just to protect the garment. Do you press once, peel carrier, and call it finished or do you press, peel carrier, press again, and then call it finished? I press twice, one with the carrier still on the vinyl of course, and then once again after I've peeled the carrier off and laid my teflon sheet over the garment again.


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## wedgees (Aug 22, 2011)

royster13 said:


> What jerseys are using?.....Is there a chance they are not the material they are being sold as?.....Or is there some kind of protective treatment that repels the heat transfer adhesive?.....


We are having the problem on two different brands. Thought the same thing the first time and switched to another brand.


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## wedgees (Aug 22, 2011)

JZH4383 said:


> According to the Stahls website, Thermofilm/ThermoGrip/Econo are all meant to be pressed at 330 degrees, so if you're pressing at 305, that may be the problem. Not sure why they are telling you something different on the phone than what's on their website.
> 
> I always use Teflon at all times when pressing just to protect the garment. Do you press once, peel carrier, and call it finished or do you press, peel carrier, press again, and then call it finished? I press twice, one with the carrier still on the vinyl of course, and then once again after I've peeled the carrier off and laid my teflon sheet over the garment again.


The 305 was for the CadFlex material from Siser...We were pressing the ThermoFlim and Grip at the 330, sorry about the mistake in the above post. I have tried so many different things, I am confusing myself.

Stahls has called and are trying to help me. They are saying we may not have enough pressure when using a pillow. I am testing some more and washing tonight so we will see.


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## royster13 (Aug 14, 2007)

What brand?......I want to go look at the specs to see if I can see something that will help.....IMO problems like this are ofter the material being decorated versus the vinyl and/or heat pressing....


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## wedgees (Aug 22, 2011)

royster13 said:


> What brand?......I want to go look at the specs to see if I can see something that will help.....IMO problems like this are ofter the material being decorated versus the vinyl and/or heat pressing....


We first had a problem with Teamworks jersey 1353 and then changed them this year to the Augusta 9520. We also, found a Badger that was scrape from a mistake last year and we tested on that...still had problems with each. I will say that the Badger stuck better than any of them. The Teamworks and the Augusta both peeled with no problem...BTW...this is after washing.


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## royster13 (Aug 14, 2007)

This is perplexing.....Those brands are used often with heat transfers and usually work well...

By washing, do you mean after application and not before?..


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## binki (Jul 16, 2006)

Her is what we know. They wash and dry the crap out of them. All of our orders go out with wash and dry instructions. Other than that you will never know.


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## ericsson2416 (Aug 29, 2007)

Listening to the problem I agree with binkspot that there might be an issue with your press . Do you have a temp gun to check it? Just for giggles heat it 50 over what the instructions say and try it on a sample jersey.


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## ChemicaUS (Dec 13, 2013)

You may try calibrating it with a contact thermometer to make sure the press is actually putting out the correct, displayed temperature. Geo Knight offers one that is very accurate for $85.00. Often, brand new, good quality presses need calibrating to get the actual temperature and the displayed temperature in sync.
You can get one here. RPK-PYRMTR : Digital Pyrometer & Surface Probe Kit : Geo Knight & Co Inc


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## NeonTees (Apr 25, 2010)

Some of the shiny poly jerseys have been a challenge. We found the thermofilm to have a more aggressive glue than some of the lighter films. 

We chalked it up to the shiny fabric. I remember seeing a disclaimer on one of the lighter films about wiping with alcohol first. 


Scott Marino 
Panda Apparel
NeonTees.com
ZeroGravitee.com

Sent from my iPhone using TShirtForums app


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## drdoct (Jul 26, 2011)

I'm with the others that say it's your press. You've got tons of variables and have changed too many things to not have success. The one thing you haven't changed is your press. Don't know what's wrong with it, but there's got to be something there that's not enabling it to get enough pressure or heat to where it's needed. I can usually get all those vinyls to stick to anything except 100% nylon. Even practice uniforms that are large hole mesh. You can always send a jersey to Stahls and have them press it for you to see any recommendations they can offer.


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## miktoxic (Feb 21, 2008)

sounds like a cheap heat press to me.

you need a heat press with consistent temp and one that's able to apply the pressure recommended.

i have an old geo knight digital has to be 18 years old and i can press any type of material on any type of substrate (given material's guidlines) with no problem whatsoever.


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## zoom_monster (Sep 20, 2006)

Press temp needs to be verified. Also if you are doing a bunch of jerseys and only some are coming off, the press could be showing the right temp setting, but the overall heat is not recovering when doing multiple shirts in a row. Here is what to do: Take a reject jersey, Cut a transfer into multiple pieces and press the pieces onto the material with successively higher temp... increasing 5 to 10 degrees each time (mark each swatch with temp and time info). Wash test these swatches. If a certain swatch seems to work, test again on a larger scale. Be aware that some presses may have "cold" spots. You may have to change your technique to compensate. Also your press' bottom platen may be sucking away needed heat in the beginning of a run. The way I get around this is to preheat the bottom or increase the dwell time at the beginning. You have to experiment. Good luck


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## MJ (Mar 14, 2007)

if you splash water on the material and it beads up the vinyl will not stick nor will plastisol stick. You can use an additive for plastisol but I have found nothing for vinyl. 
I use Sisser easyweed stretch vinyl. It will stretch with the material and can be applied to material that has spandex in it. Up to 10%. 
You may want to try that product if you continue to have problems.
I have always had problems with Sthals instructions. I had to increase my temp by 10% and time by 5% in order to press their products. With other product I use their recommended time and temp with no problem.


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## cman9toes (Aug 6, 2009)

Here is something I learned the hard way. You stated you were washing the jerseys before you pressed? By chance did you use fabric softener? If so that will prevent the vinyl and plastisol from sticking. On a side note plastisol transfers have come a long way and wear better than vinyl in my opinion.


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## miktoxic (Feb 21, 2008)

man i could stick a piece of eco film on a rock with the right temp and pressure.


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## advantagesports (Jul 13, 2009)

We have had this problem for 3 years now. We have stocked jersey companies, used different heat presses, used the gun to measure temperature. We have only
Had problems with names and sponsor names and we think it is because the mesh part where the hole is there is no adhesion so after being washed, it is peeling off. Our numbers have been fine as long as we use thermal film. One other thing I noticed that no one has else has written is that we PREHEAT THE GARMENT WITH NO COVER SHEET. I did talk with
One jersey company and they kinda said maybe there is a pretreatment of the jersey that could be affecting the adhesive. So try preheating the garment, use a heat gun to test your heat and Definately make sure the pressure is correct. We run our thermo films at 330. Preheat for 5 seconds. The. Press with number and heat sheet for 12.


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## zikzak (Jul 12, 2013)

Hi 

Sorry to hear of your problems. We have been using PS flex from Grafityp here in the uk for many years and have only had this issue happen on one occasion. This came down to a coating that had been applied to the garments that was like a silicone base and as I recall the official Real Madrid shirts all had to be recalled because of this problem.

It may well be the shirts and not the method used - worth checking out other garment ranges

Also we have ALWAYS pre-press all garments for 10 seconds to get rid of any moisture!!

Cheers

Stewart

Zik Zak - Personalized custom t-shirt printing; funny aprons; stag, hen, holiday t-shirts; staff-wear


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## Printworksqld (Nov 9, 2010)

Hi, I have put numbers on thousands of jerseys using "Siser" Vinyl, it never fails, the only failure was when i bought a roll of Thermoflex, it fails most of the time and even if it mostly sticks, it peels at the edges. Buy Siser it works everytime.


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## jakesspts (Nov 24, 2009)

you might have cold spots in your platen, check temps in a few different spots


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## wedgees (Aug 22, 2011)

We thought the same thing, but we have tested on three different brands, Teamworks, Badger, and Augusta. They are all 100% poly.


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## wedgees (Aug 22, 2011)

royster13 said:


> This is perplexing.....Those brands are used often with heat transfers and usually work well...
> 
> By washing, do you mean after application and not before?..


After application. One product said to wait 24 hours before washing so we did...that was the Siser CadFlex.


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## wedgees (Aug 22, 2011)

advantagesports said:


> We have had this problem for 3 years now. We have stocked jersey companies, used different heat presses, used the gun to measure temperature. We have only
> Had problems with names and sponsor names and we think it is because the mesh part where the hole is there is no adhesion so after being washed, it is peeling off. Our numbers have been fine as long as we use thermal film. One other thing I noticed that no one has else has written is that we PREHEAT THE GARMENT WITH NO COVER SHEET. I did talk with
> One jersey company and they kinda said maybe there is a pretreatment of the jersey that could be affecting the adhesive. So try preheating the garment, use a heat gun to test your heat and Definately make sure the pressure is correct. We run our thermo films at 330. Preheat for 5 seconds. The. Press with number and heat sheet for 12.


That sounds like like everything we have done. Thanks for the comment


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## wedgees (Aug 22, 2011)

We ended up using plastisol ink numbers. This is the method we used two years ago when we first started our business. The only problem I have with those for football uniforms is they rub off with all the contact. That is the method I ended up using this year and I have already had someone mention the numbers seem to be rubbing off and of course the holes punch through. The vinyl looks better and lasts the entire season "if it will stay on". I just can't get it to not peel up. In my tests, I peel it will my finger nail, and I feel that if I can get it to start peeling up and tearing away after I wash it then it isn't adhering well enough for me to send out on the football field. After what we went through last year I can't have letters falling off and laying on the field after a game...that happened last year with the ThermoFlim.

We did use a vinyl "Siser CadFlex" for the names that were press on the dazzle yoke of the jersey. It is doing fine and even last year when using Thermoflim on the Dazzle for names it didn't peel. I think it is weird that the companies have told me that the dazzle is the area that I may see problems and that is the one area that is fine.

Anyway, after we slow down we will be doing some more testing. Thank you all for your input, the calls to the store to offer suggestions. It is great to know we aren't alone in this business and others are willing to share their wisdom and experiences to help each other.

Wedgee's


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## ortamichaelj (Jun 15, 2014)

I had this problem with the Thermo Film from Stahls. What I found is that the because the materials stretches this issues happens more often than not during first wash and dry. What I did to resolve the issue from occuring a again is place an additional foam piece under the shirt and number and press at the same pressure. I have never had the issue reoccur. 

Hope it helps.


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## miktoxic (Feb 21, 2008)

without trying to sound like a jerk...what type/brand of heat press do you have i.e. is it a clamshell? who makes it?

if you are serious about doing heat transfers for a living you might want to check out the new hotronix line of automatic swing away presses. i know if i was just doing transfers i'd invest in one myself but i rarely use my heat press now since switching to silk screening.

when doing team jerseys it only makes sense to get number packages from people that offer the plastisol transfers. a couple of years ago i did a bunch of jerseys both football on poly/nylon and softball on poly/cotton and got my number packs from

Screen Printed Transfer Numbers | Transfer Express

and they worked like a charm. no probs whatsoever. doing your own cutting then weeding for every name and number is not cost effective.


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## ortamichaelj (Jun 15, 2014)

I try to use the transfer express numbers more now than before. However, its not always the best choice for the apparel. I have found issues from both sides of the fence.


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## wedgees (Aug 22, 2011)

drdoct said:


> I'm with the others that say it's your press. You've got tons of variables and have changed too many things to not have success. The one thing you haven't changed is your press. Don't know what's wrong with it, but there's got to be something there that's not enabling it to get enough pressure or heat to where it's needed. I can usually get all those vinyls to stick to anything except 100% nylon. Even practice uniforms that are large hole mesh. You can always send a jersey to Stahls and have them press it for you to see any recommendations they can offer.


I am using a Stahls Hotronix 16x20 that I purchased 2 years ago new. I don't think that is considered an old or cheaply made press...is it?


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## wedgees (Aug 22, 2011)

ericsson2416 said:


> Listening to the problem I agree with binkspot that there might be an issue with your press . Do you have a temp gun to check it? Just for giggles heat it 50 over what the instructions say and try it on a sample jersey.


I have a hotronix and Stahls said at one time we may be over baking it.


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## wedgees (Aug 22, 2011)

miktoxic said:


> sounds like a cheap heat press to me.
> 
> you need a heat press with consistent temp and one that's able to apply the pressure recommended.
> 
> i have an old geo knight digital has to be 18 years old and i can press any type of material on any type of substrate (given material's guidlines) with no problem whatsoever.


Just replied to another, but my press is 2 years old and it is a Hotronix. I consider that to be a good press.


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## wedgees (Aug 22, 2011)

cman9toes said:


> Here is something I learned the hard way. You stated you were washing the jerseys before you pressed? By chance did you use fabric softener? If so that will prevent the vinyl and plastisol from sticking. On a side note plastisol transfers have come a long way and wear better than vinyl in my opinion.


I did not wash before I pressed, if I said that in an earlier post I may have been referring to the sample jersey. We took a NEW (never washed jersey) and did our first test...the entire number and letters came off, so I used that same jersey again to try the other samples, so at that point it had been wash. No I didn't use fabric softener, just Tide Liquid Detergent.


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## miktoxic (Feb 21, 2008)

no those are great presses, but of course even porsche comes out with a lemon once and while.

do yourself a favor and buy a laser heat thermometer. i got mine off ebay for under $15. you can take heat samples from different locations on your heat platen to make sure the heat is being displaced evenly across the whole 14 x 16 inches.

if you find that the platen is bad have it replaced. most platens have a lifetime warranty.

if that is not the case then there has to be a problem with the material you're using. i'm curious to know if you've had problems using other materials on other substrates (100% cotton tees, 50/50 etc.).

i've used only eco film from imprintables and siser easy weed when it comes to using vinyl and have never had a problem. i've used plastisol heat transfers from 3 different vendors over the years with never a problem.

i would call both the vendor of the product you are using and the distributor that you bought your press from a throw a fit if i was having probs like you are describing.

good luck. let them have it. squeeky wheel gets the grease.


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## floppypoppygifts (May 26, 2014)

I think you need to do as suggested above and test the TRUE temperature of your press with a digital/laser thermometer, especially if you purchased an older/used machine. You can get a thermometer at Harbor Freight for about $10. In my experience: Pressure is important and so is a teflon cover sheet as was suggested.


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## royster13 (Aug 14, 2007)

I really folks would stop recommending thermometers that are not probes....Laser and/or digital thermometers can be inconsistent based on how the light reflects from the surface being measured.....A simple bbq thermometer is often more accurate, however, it is best to get a probe like this.....RPK-PYRMTR : Digital Pyrometer & Surface Probe Kit : Geo Knight & Co Inc


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## floppypoppygifts (May 26, 2014)

Well, that is a helpful suggestion, too. Thank for sharing


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## binkspot (Jun 12, 2013)

Until you confirm the equipment is working properly your just spinning your wheels trying different materials and garments. We have literally done tens of thousands of Stahls die cut numbers and in house cut names and numbers using several different materials including plastisol transfers and maybe had fifty come back over the past six years. When they do come back you can smell the fabric softener which can loosen the decoration. About 80% of these jobs have been on Badger or Augusta mesh basketball reversible jersey with rather large holes. Most of the products out there today will stick to almost anything with the proper heat and pressure.


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## sharon b (Jul 6, 2011)

we had the same problem using some of the pre-cut numbers. then we discovered the operator was applying them glue-side up  yes, there is a difference & yes it matters!


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## ChemicaUS (Dec 13, 2013)

According to our friends at Geo Knight, typical point and shoot IR thermometers aren't reliable for heat presses. They don't read aluminum well, so you may not get a reliable reading. A contact thermometer is more accurate.


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## wedgees (Aug 22, 2011)

miktoxic said:


> without trying to sound like a jerk...what type/brand of heat press do you have i.e. is it a clamshell? who makes it?
> 
> if you are serious about doing heat transfers for a living you might want to check out the new hotronix line of automatic swing away presses. i know if i was just doing transfers i'd invest in one myself but i rarely use my heat press now since switching to silk screening.
> 
> ...


We have a hotronix clamshell, purchased new 2-2 1/2 years ago.


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## wedgees (Aug 22, 2011)

sharon b said:


> we had the same problem using some of the pre-cut numbers. then we discovered the operator was applying them glue-side up  yes, there is a difference & yes it matters!


LOL...I can say that wasn't the issue...however we have stuck things on upside down without paying attention. LOL


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## forwill (Jun 28, 2012)

@wedgees :

Did you figure out what the problem is ? I plan on getting a hotronix and buying transfers from stahls but now I am hesitant due to your problems you are having.


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## floppypoppygifts (May 26, 2014)

I did my son's teams jerseys using Stahl's thermofilm in white on red and navy Augusta jerseys. We did team name on front with numbers in back. Additionally, we applied color printed, cadcut transfer on the sleeves for the league's logo. The jerseys are nylon and spandex. I used white thermogrip. The film was thinner than my usual vinyl which is 123 magic cut. The color of the jersey does cast a color, but does not bleed on the thermofilm. The cad cut league logo from transfer express does show bleed thru from the red. To date, none of the embellishments have lifted. I consider myself to be an amateur since I have been in business about a year. Our whole team's jerseys still look great and we have been playing in them since this summer. I use a Stahl's hottronix swing away model press like you. I followed all directions to a tee from Stahl's and transfer express. There must be some extenuating circumstance you have not identified. 

For future reference of yourself and others reading this thread, here are the best tips I have learned: don't wash your garments before embellishing, consider keeping the platen down on preheat so the bottom platen heats through as well, do not accept garments from individuals -order them from the mfr. yourself since people always seem to insist on washing stuff even when asked not to, consider the double-press as suggested, preheat your garment to remove moisture, do not embellish with vinyl over seams, use a Teflon pillow inside the garment if there are buttons or seams on the opposite side that may cause an uneven application. 

If all of these tips that have been shared here on this thread and mfr instructions are followed, there should be no reason your designs are not working. I hope you can get to the bottom of things as it is scary and frustrating to think this could happen to anyone. Please continue to share your progress.


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