# Wash test pics Brother 782, DTG-K3, Mod-1



## PPop (Jan 18, 2009)

Here are some T-Shirts Pics from DTG Prints on Black T-Shirts ranging from Zero to 40+ Washes.

After Scanning the Actual Shirt at 400 dpi, I zoomed in to 100% in Photoshop, to show pixel detail. I wrote the Wash Count, Design Code, and Printer Model using the Photoshop Text Tool. I then did a screen capture to make the jpgs that I will post here.

I used this scanner and the 100% pixel method to create the final pic due to artifacts with photography, lighting and zooming. These pics really show the detail in the inkjet, and the degradation from washing.

I'm going to show the 15-18x Wash pics here 1st - as this is what most concerns me with DTG Printing - The "average" washability of the Print.


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## DAGuide (Oct 2, 2006)

The other thing that might be helpful is posting which brand / model of garment(s) were used. Although there maybe a difference in washability of the ink, how the garment is constructed is very similar to building a foundation for a house. Thus, why some garments will print better prior to the first wash and there can be a difference in washability.

Nice job.

Mark


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## Don-ColDesi (Oct 18, 2006)

To give a fair comparison having the same file screen printed with water based inks on the same brand shirt and put through the same testing would be beneficial.

Direct to Garment uses water based inks - it should be compared to water based screen print inks. I think you will find that the results are pretty similar when this comparison is made.


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## PPop (Jan 18, 2009)

DAGuide said:


> The other thing that might be helpful is posting which brand / model of garment(s) were used. Although there maybe a difference in washability of the ink, how the garment is constructed is very similar to building a foundation for a house. Thus, why some garments will print better prior to the first wash and there can be a difference in washability.
> 
> Nice job.
> 
> Mark


Actually, the 4th picture, the one labeled Bro782 AA2001 was printed on an American Apparel 2001 T-Shirt. All of the others were mainly done on Gildan 2000.

The print on the American Apparel body is significantly superior in initial print quality, as well as washability. In fact that shirt is now at 20 washes and the print still looks GREAT, but there is a hole in the thin material!


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## PPop (Jan 18, 2009)

Here are Pictures of Shirts washed 24 Times. These are mostly the same shirts above but 6 Washes Later.

24 Washes at 1 per week is 6 Months. IMHO - 6 Months is the unacceptable/barely acceptable limit for a professional printed garment. 

On the plus side, the Shirts are still very wearable. They all look fine. They look pretty good unless you compare it to a new T-Shirt, or look at the details in the pics under close inspection, like in these scans...

Is 6 Months limit of Washability with Quality for DTG? What do you think?


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## zoom_monster (Sep 20, 2006)

PPop said:


> Is 6 Months limit of Washability with Quality for DTG? What do you think?


 Matt, thanks for posting these pictures. In understanding that the ink film is so very thin.... perhaps 1/4 to 1/8th the thickness of a screenprint? the washability is adiquate. one of the benefits of DTG is the thin, softhand feel. Just like ANY pigment based print, if there is no encapsilation of the fibre, it will degrade as fast as the substrate. There is perhaps room overall to improve. Users can benefit by being consitant and more "scientific" in eliminating variables. Ink will improve as the market demands it.


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## mrbigjack50 (Jun 9, 2008)

How long do you expect a shirt to last? 50 years?

I just find this argument that goes on here, really dumb...

Its a t shirt, you buy for $10 or $20 you wear it a bunch of time then you toss it, end of story.

If shirts lasted forever than most t shirt businesses would be bankrupt : )


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## FatKat Printz (Dec 26, 2008)

I agree with Sean's colorful analogy.. I don't know how many times I have been approached on re-creating a "fave" shirt and not one of them are disappointed it didn't last long they are disappointed they can't get it because either the company went out of business or the shirt is no longer available.

Water temperature? Soap? Drying method? I know that it shouldn't matter but it does because when we do wash tests we don't do anything fancy because we don't expect the customer to do anything outside the normal washing. 

If you were putting them inside out, using cold water, using soap meant for darks only, low dry you are going outside the normal wash tests. 

these were sample shirts correct??


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## mrbigjack50 (Jun 9, 2008)

The art of washing a shirt properly to last forever will prob be your geeky science quest I suppose Matt.

Argument over a shirt not lasting 40 washes is purely ludicrous, and FYI I bought years ago a Dolce Gabbona t shirt "screen printed" after 10 washes there was alot of cracking and color fades to it.

Do you think I went back to Nieman Marcus and said, "umm this shirt is fading, can I get another?"

Use your imagination what they would say, now use your imagination, what you say to your client, when they try to pull that on you : )

If you are selling a higher priced item then them than by all means, expect garments to last for your grand kids to wear.
Maybe put it in a picture frame too, as some people here give the "Epson" FineArt t shirt printing clause.

Another factor is, two t shirts from same company will never perform exactly the same side by side, which would make any testing of garment washing side by side being inconclusive.
I base this on a molecular point of view, again for the 8000 mag. point you shown up that a human won't see with naked eye, but scientist in lab will.

Give myth busters a call, maybe they can do a test for you : ) I personally will call it BUSTED

It was great you shown us these results but who cares if shirt don't last 40 washes or 6 month

More interested why someone would wear same shirt so many times over a 6 month period, guess that will by a mystery just like watching episodes of Lost


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## FatKat Printz (Dec 26, 2008)

Last time I checked, a Mod-1, K3 and 782 weren't exactly close in price range amongst each other. 
Plus, you are basing two Epson printers vs Brother printer > different RIP Software, different ink, can't really put all the 3 in the same ring. 

Maybe the Mod-1 and K3 but only cause they are Epson based but that's about the only similarity they have. 
Put them toe to toe.. it won't be a pretty match. Put a K3 and Mod-K2 and still wouldn't be pretty.. 

Looking at the market as a whole, there really is no 2 printers that can go to toe to toe without dramatically different results. 

If you are trying to compare dark shirt results you have succeeded but that's where it stops. Other things to look at is pretreat process, bottled vs bagged ink, plus curing times. 

I know Belquette uses Hotronix but I use a DK20 with their ink. We use the same curing times but we don't have the exact same pretreat process because unless you have a pretreat machine then doing them by hand every person is different similar in process but I may pretreat heavier than someone at Belquette. So for even us doing wash tests using the same ink is impossible. 

Thanks for showing us "your" wash results its much appreciate but as a consumer its best that they do their own wash tests because having first hand results is best. 

Ppop so having the shirts on hand and you see the true results whats your verdict?


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## WholesalePrint (Sep 23, 2008)

The thing to consider is the weight of the shirts plays a big difference in how long it last. This I have witnessed first hand.


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## FatKat Printz (Dec 26, 2008)

WholesalePrint said:


> The thing to consider is the weight of the shirts plays a big difference in how long it last. This I have witnessed first hand.


I second that..


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## acca (Jun 25, 2006)

Meaning the heavier the weight, the longer it will last?


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## WholesalePrint (Sep 23, 2008)

Geacca in my opinion yes


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## DAGuide (Oct 2, 2006)

mrbigjack50 said:


> Argument over a shirt not lasting 40 washes is purely ludicrous, and FYI I bought years ago a Dolce Gabbona t shirt "screen printed" after 10 washes there was alot of cracking and color fades to it.
> 
> Do you think I went back to Nieman Marcus and said, "umm this shirt is fading, can I get another?"


Sean,

How many t-shirts have you bought / worn since then? Yet, you still remember this one shirt. When was the last time you bought a t-shirt from the same store?

I ask the questions above because in my opinion, it all comes down to how you sell the product to your customer. Knowing/controlling/meeting/exceeding the expectations of the customer is the key to reorders. If your customer understands that it is a $10.00 shirt and it will last 10 washes before noticeable changes, then that is one thing. If the customer is a company like a bank and cracking starts after the first 5 washes, what image does this type garment say or represent about the bank to its customers?

I give PPop a lot of credit for doing something that more than the majority of dtg owners will not do. Sure, some of them have done wash tests up to 5 washes or so, but very few that I talk to do them up to 20 washes. What this person has done has provided documentation to his customers should it become necessary to show information about the product being sold. 

If you were a customer trying to determine whether you get your shirts done by one of two dtg printers and one comes out with a 20 wash test and the other has nothing to show you, is that going to affect your decision? It would be one of the factors that I would consider if the information is available to me.

Just my opinion and I am sure there will be the ones that will disagree. Nice job PPop! 

Mark


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## mrbigjack50 (Jun 9, 2008)

Only reason I remember is because I payed around $200, if I paid $10 would be complete different story.
I haven't bought a shirt since I gotten DTG printer, I got boat load of screw up prints I wear : )

I understand what he done, but there is no control to his documentation, I remember SkDave, did a test of a dark print he got from a show and after 1 wash, ink was flaking and color looked like crap.

Reason he had bad result wasn't clear, but it was speculated that the vendor, did not cure properly, not enough pre treatment or whatever else.

I don't see how test wash of DTG k3 and Mod-1 would have different results, based on ink, as they both use same inks, same print heads or close enough heads for result not to be that different.

Difference is, cure times, pretreatment ect.


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## FatKat Printz (Dec 26, 2008)

mrbigjack50 said:


> I don't see how test wash of DTG k3 and Mod-1 would have different results, based on ink, as they both use same inks, same print heads or close enough heads for result not to be that different.


Back the train up Sean.. now its not 100% confirmed that SWF V02 inks are Dupont (white or CMYK) whereas Belquette inks are 100% confirmed they are Dupont because they are direct authorized reseller. 

I am not sure anyone else is selling Dupont CMYK or white ink for that matter. At least its not noted on anyone else websites. I could be wrong ..Harry?? Don?? Peter?? 

If they were Dupont it should be clearly stated somewhere.
So when I said the two are Epson based that is why I said the similarities stop there. Epson print heads and parts.


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## PPop (Jan 18, 2009)

DAGuide said:


> , it all comes down to how you sell the product to your customer. Knowing/controlling/meeting/exceeding the expectations of the customer is the key to reorders. ... If the customer is a company like a bank and cracking starts after the first 5 washes, what image does this type garment say or represent about the bank to its customers?
> Mark


Yes. This Quality of the Garment is my #1 concern. 

I can already sell 1,000's of shirts based on the design, but if the actual product lasts only 3 months, or 6 months, and the customer has the flaking peeling product in their face, everytime they wear it, or look it in a drawer, wishing it was "good" - THEN maybe they won't buy a 2nd or 3rd or 10th shirt from my line! THIS is the basis of real sales period.



DAGuide said:


> I give PPop a lot of credit for doing something that more than the majority of dtg owners will not do. Sure, some of them have done wash tests up to 5 washes or so, but very few that I talk to do them up to 20 washes. What this person has done has provided documentation to his customers should it become necessary to show information about the product being sold.
> 
> If you were a customer trying to determine whether you get your shirts done by one of two dtg printers and one comes out with a 20 wash test and the other has nothing to show you, is that going to affect your decision? It would be one of the factors that I would consider if the information is available to me.
> 
> ...


I've been trying to get straight answers to the washability question for almost a year now, without adequate responses. I've got the usual "depends on the shirt, detergent, pre-treat, curing, ink" 

I know this affects the washability, but what it really comes down to is the ink itself.

I expect my car's paint to last more than 2 years in any weather, and car wash, etc. Notice that the peeling metallic paint from the 70's and 80's on cars is long gone due to capitalistic forces with paint formulation changes. I expect that the same forces to drive the improvement of DTG inks, as 6 Months is not enough.


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## mrbigjack50 (Jun 9, 2008)

FatKat Printz said:


> If they were Dupont it should be clearly stated somewhere.
> So when I said the two are Epson based that is why I said the similarities stop there. Epson print heads and parts.


Don't seem like old days that Dupount was king, no one seems to be saying its a re branding of it, so I suppose times have changed where knock offs from china being used unless confirmed : )


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## FatKat Printz (Dec 26, 2008)

PPop said:


> I know this affects the washability, but what it really comes down to is the ink itself.


Exactly!!! but how do you know what's in your ink if there is no clear clarification of where it comes from. 

Its been beaten in our heads that DuPont ink is universal used ink but learning this isn't the truth. 

I mean sure I can tell you my ink is DuPont all I want but guess what I got proof.. can anyone else say the same?? _besides Belquette users _

I am not saying DuPont is far more superior than other ink but I can tell you from my experience I had had far less problems maybe the combo of quality ink and degassed ink is the double threat. 

If someone wants to argue that DuPont ink isn't worth the price..please come up to the podium!!!


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## santasgift73 (Mar 17, 2011)

HELP!!
Ok so we used to have a BAD fading problem after the first wash.
Changed the ink out and it's better(much better)BUT still ..after the first wash we have a SLIGHT fade issue now.
Not a major fade like before.as a matter of fact, to the untrained eye they probabaly couldn't tell the difference.
But we can and we wanna give our customers the best.
We are using black,ring spun 100% cotton Tshirts(about 5.5 oz)
To pretreat we spritz water(a very light mist)then use the power sprayer to spray pre treat and sponge in the pretreat with a fun noodle(it works great at keeping fibers down.We used to have that problem too but not anymore).We then press with heavy pressure(10 seconds WITH TEFLON sometimes parchment .It turns out the same either way.)Then another 10seconds NO PARCHMENT/TEFLON.
We live in Hawaii.It's not cold or hot.It's warm here but the room is pretty cool(between 70-80 degrees).We have "breezy" weather.It's NOT A DRY HEAT.
We have done many,many tests with different ways to pretreat and to press.
Do you think it is more a pretreat issue or could there be an issue with the heat press?
Our very FIRST shirts printed awsome and did well in wash and stretch tests.
Nothings really changed since then.
One month into it we started having this fade issue.
As I mentioned before it was really BAD at first.
But after changing thefirst batch of ink(which came to us without a date things got somewhat better.
The pictures print out vividly(when we had the bad ink the pics were not so vivid)but STILL there is a fade issue.
It's not teriibly bad as before(just a slight fade)but we anna splve this issue once and for all.
If you are asuccessful, professional digital t shirt printer and have a video you can send me as to how you do things I would be very greatful.
Also...I would like to know which BRAN tshirt works best for the majority of you all.
Thank you for the help and for being patient with me.
I saw some threads the other day that almost scared me off the forum
It wasn't directed at me but this person was being really rude and mean to another person.
But so far all the people who have responded to me have been kind and helpful.
Mahalo(thank you)


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## skdave (Apr 11, 2008)

mrbigjack50 said:


> Only reason I remember is because I payed around $200, if I paid $10 would be complete different story.
> I haven't bought a shirt since I gotten DTG printer, I got boat load of screw up prints I wear : )
> 
> I understand what he done, but there is no control to his documentation, I remember SkDave, did a test of a dark print he got from a show and after 1 wash, ink was flaking and color looked like crap.
> ...


 
Sean i think the DTG have come a long waysince my early wash test. These samples look great after 24 washes. It is fun to read this post.


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## mrbigjack50 (Jun 9, 2008)

True. I been wearing brother 782 shirt for a while now and washes better than white shirt.
Hopefully be getting one soon : )


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## FatKat Printz (Dec 26, 2008)

santasgift73 said:


> To pretreat we spritz water(a very light mist)then use the power sprayer to spray pre treat and sponge in the pretreat with a fun noodle(it works great at keeping fibers down.We used to have that problem too but not anymore).We then press with heavy pressure(10 seconds WITH TEFLON sometimes parchment .It turns out the same either way.)Then another 10seconds NO PARCHMENT/TEFLON.


*Do not spritz water* before you spray pretreat. You are supposed to pre-press to get the humidity out (like 5-10 secs) so you are adding to the shirts moisture when you need to remove it. 

@350 degrees
Curing the pretreat with Teflon for at least 45 seconds to 1 minute (10 seconds is not enough)

1 press to cure the pretreat is enough..


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## skdave (Apr 11, 2008)

mrbigjack50 said:


> True. I been wearing brother 782 shirt for a while now and washes better than white shirt.
> Hopefully be getting one soon : )


 
Sean you can print for me when to get one.


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## mrbigjack50 (Jun 9, 2008)

ok : )

I be using her 7 days a week prob.


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## vinyl signs (Dec 26, 2007)

FatKat Printz said:


> *Do not spritz water* before you spray pretreat. You are supposed to pre-press to get the humidity out (like 5-10 secs) so you are adding to the shirts moisture when you need to remove it.


This is not true, the reason for pressing the shirt before you pretreat is to press the fibers down (helps lessening fibers sticking up when printing)! Misting/Spriting your shirts before you pretreat will lessen the noticiable shadow of the pretreating process.


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## FatKat Printz (Dec 26, 2008)

vinyl signs said:


> This is not true, the reason for pressing the shirt before you pretreat is to press the fibers down (helps lessening fibers sticking up when printing)!


So when you pre-press no steams comes out?? 



vinyl signs said:


> Misting/Spriting your shirts before you pretreat will lessen the noticiable shadow of the pretreating process.


Do basically diluting the pretreat?? 



Quoting SWF East DTG Digital Pretreat Process...
_no where does it say to mist the shirt_

Recommended procedure:

The following procedure will help ensure consistent quality and performance of the DTG White Ink:

1. Agitate or shake the pretreatment solution prior to filling your sprayer. Locate the sprayer area in a different room than your printer(s). Overspray can find its way into the printer and potentially damage the device.

2. Locate the sprayer area in a well ventilated area. Set the heat press for 170°C (~340°F)

3. *In humid environments, it is often beneficial to pre-press the shirt (using the parchment paper as a barrier from the press) for 10 to 15 seconds prior to applying the pretreatment. This removes some of the water naturally trapped in the fibers.*

4. Using the spraying system, spray DTG White Ink Pre-Treatment solution evenly on the area that is to be printed. The recommended coverage is about 20g to 25g (0.7 oz to 0.9 oz) for a 14" x 17" printing area.

Application of DTG White Ink Pre-Treatment Solution | General DTG Support Articles

Now, I normally don't agree with SWF but living in Florida and other places that have high humidity this is vital but the spritz of water just seems unnecessary. Because if you are properly maintaining your Wagner and Pretreat you shouldn't have any fading problems. Unless, its your ink then that's a different posts.


pictures were taking from our phones but hopefully you can see the differences..


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