# Difference between 4900 & 7900?



## allamerican-aeoon (Aug 14, 2007)

I think it will be interesting to share our thoughts here between two printers. Dave, Jeff, Mark, Don, Dan, Justin, John ---. let's sit around the table. And talk on users end.
7900 is $4000 4900 is $2500. $1500 different. 
7900 too big to small shop? Price tag will be bit higher than 4900 about $3000-4000(?) because when engine get bigger body will also.
24" vs 17"


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## YoDan (May 4, 2007)

Basically the print engine is the same all you would be getting is the ability to print a wider print or to have a platen side by side, very similar to the old T-Jet that allowed a user to print using 2 x 3 or a total of 6 platens. I for one do not see the higher priced modified printers as a current choice with the economy the way that it still is, in fact there is a BIG hole still open for a lower priced DTG printer 
 When I look at the field of the current DTG printers on the market I see the Epson's with the smaller print area going for a lot of money compare to the OEM cost, while true this cost to bring these to life was expensive and the engineering cost at the beginning takes some time to recoup depending on the sales.
Another factor is the support for these printers and the show cost which I have experienced personally makes it real tough to just throw something in the current market and to take the chances, ALL it takes is a lot of time and money 
*"Just my thoughts"*
Dan
*"HAPPY PRINTING"*


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## allamerican-aeoon (Aug 14, 2007)

How about all over prints? When user twist shirts 20-30 degree it will print more than 24" wide.


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## YoDan (May 4, 2007)

allamerican said:


> How about all over prints? When user twist shirts 20-30 degree it will print more than 24" wide.


And a 4900 will print more than 17"  I guess a market study for how many people really want the 
*All Over prints* would help.
Dan
*"HAPPY PRINTING"*


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## stix (Feb 3, 2008)

Dan is on to something.. There is a void in the lower DTG market. Everyone else is going to quicker, bigger and newest technology but forgetting about smaller shops that dont have the deep pockets. Look at what Roland did with their new sign machine. They are filling a void in the marketplace.


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## allamerican-aeoon (Aug 14, 2007)

stix said:


> Dan is on to something.. There is a void in the lower DTG market. Everyone else is going to quicker, bigger and newest technology but forgetting about smaller shops that dont have the deep pockets. Look at what Roland did with their new sign machine. They are filling a void in the marketplace.


Dan is always on something ever since I know him from the time he bought Flexijet from AA. He is big on DIY and he said working good in his shop.
Chris, I agree with your point. I rather sell tons of hamburgers than expensive lobster dish. Want to be McDonald not Ruth Chris if I have a choice. 7900 will be so fast (faster than 4900). Maybe head to head with Kornit with better image. At 1/4 of price? Isn't it also a some point to look? All are questionable until gate is open.
This is why we want to hear real peoples voice.
Tee off time is getting close. Playing with F&M Expression Frank.
$1/stroke.


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## stix (Feb 3, 2008)

Hey if the 7900 is easier to crack that the 4900.. go with the path of least resistance!!


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## Stitch-Up (May 26, 2007)

allamerican said:


> Tee off time is getting close. Playing with F&M Expression Frank.
> $1/stroke.


All your recent activity I was beginning to think the golf courses were flooded!

I guess you guys Stateside can still afford a round of golf despite slipping back into recession!

Don't worry, the UK will bail you out.


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## YoDan (May 4, 2007)

> I guess you guys Stateside can still afford a round of golf despite slipping back into recession!


Hey with him being semi retired I would prefer that he swing at that golf ball than to take a swing at me. 
At a $1.00 astroke that will not even pay for the drinks, Peter make it $20.00 a stroke!
And Peter for your information, I am not working on any DIY printer, I only have time to support all my customers and YES I still have my Flexi 
I enjoy hearing about the DTG printers and I am looking froward to seeing the 4900 at the next SGIA show 
Dan
*"HAPPY PRINTING"*


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## Don-ColDesi (Oct 18, 2006)

The development involved in a smaller format machine as compared to a larger format is basically the same (though the larger Espon based machines have had seemingly easier chip technologies to break in the recent past). The base cost/retail difference between a larger machine and a smaller one is mostly the cost of the core printer it is developed on - not the other bells and whistles or developer time.

We have taken the 24" wide approach both in the past (Bullet & Xpress) and again in the future (M-Series). The speed of the older large format machines (78xx & 98xx) basically limited the early machines to shops printing fabric for cut & sew operations. The expected speed from the newer models (7900 & 9900) might eliminate that concern. Then another real concern is faced - heat presses that address the size format of the printer - Geo Knight makes a 20" x 25" press - but it retails for almost $3900 - ouch. You would also need to develop a larger format pretreatment machine as well. 

Just my 2 cents!


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## YoDan (May 4, 2007)

I would agree that it is much easier for a DTG manufacture to come out with a newer or different DTG printer as ALL the support system would already be in place, The cost for doing the shows would really be high for a company that only had a DTG printer to sell, where as the larger companies that take various pieces of equipment because they do not rely 100% on that DTG printer have the bigger advantage, I have seen this my self when I attended a few shows with a company that did this, the cost was still there but the advantages were also there 
Dan
_*"HAPPY PRINTING"*_


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## DAGuide (Oct 2, 2006)

My opinion on this comes from a different angle when it comes to all-over-printing. Most of the dtg users I talk to are hung up on the cost to print a garment (i.e. ink cost, time, labor,...). Although a lot of them like the idea of doing an oversized print, most of them stay away from it because the additional cost is not something that their customers are wanting to pay for. Now this can differ from one market (i.e. So Cal) to another (i.e. midwest). For example, a couple of years ago the Affliction shirts were going for over a $100.00 per a shirt in CA. They tried selling the same shirts in the midwest and southeast, but the sales were substantially lower because the customers in those areas were not use to paying that much for a shirt. The same principle applies to dtg printing - especially on dark garments with white ink and pretreat. In the end, the only way all-over-printing is viable is if the user has the customers that are willing to pay for it.

Mark


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## JeridHill (Feb 8, 2006)

DAGuide said:


> My opinion on this comes from a different angle when it comes to all-over-printing. Most of the dtg users I talk to are hung up on the cost to print a garment (i.e. ink cost, time, labor,...). Although a lot of them like the idea of doing an oversized print, most of them stay away from it because the additional cost is not something that their customers are wanting to pay for. Now this can differ from one market (i.e. So Cal) to another (i.e. midwest). For example, a couple of years ago the Affliction shirts were going for over a $100.00 per a shirt in CA. They tried selling the same shirts in the midwest and southeast, but the sales were substantially lower because the customers in those areas were not use to paying that much for a shirt. The same principle applies to dtg printing - especially on dark garments with white ink and pretreat. In the end, the only way all-over-printing is viable is if the user has the customers that are willing to pay for it.
> 
> Mark


It wouldn't be so bad for light garments with no white ink, but imagine pretreating an all over shirt and printing something that large with white ink.

Your cost would probably be in the $15+ range just for ink and pretreat.


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## DAGuide (Oct 2, 2006)

JeridHill said:


> It wouldn't be so bad for light garments with no white ink, but imagine pretreating an all over shirt and printing something that large with white ink.
> 
> Your cost would probably be in the $15+ range just for ink and pretreat.


Don't forget how long it would take to print and the number you can print per an hour. The costs add up and you need to charge enough to be profitable.

Mark


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## allamerican-aeoon (Aug 14, 2007)

Basically 7900 is close to M series than 4900. 
When I saw M last time M has two shirts platen side by side. with wims. And told me two printhead is option. 
M does not have big foot print which is good for many small size shop. I heard many time size of printer is very important to many guys. 
Maybe it is time to customize size with users requirement. With 30days waiting. From 20"-55". 2 shirts - 6-8 at one pass. 
Waiting time on NeoFlex is now 30 days without customize. Orders are greater than produce at this point. Tigers work late almost everyday. So 30 days waiting won't be bad. M project retail is $25000(?) on one printhead. Two printhead may possible or not if it is price will add up. 
If anyone go with 7900 retail price should be set lower than $25000. 
I look into this and it was possible. Price is not answer to all. 
My working day today. TGIF to you guys. Ttyl


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## Don-ColDesi (Oct 18, 2006)

We do not have a retail price yet on the M-Series, we should know that closer to the release date. What price point would make you nervous Peter? 

I agree with Jerid about the costs and time associated with overall prints on darks. Just getting the pretreatment applied properly would be a major pain. The reality is that 24" wide is still not large enough to do full coverage fronts on t-shirts. I did some prints on a Bullet at SGIA in Atlanta over 3 years ago and was only able to get about 2/3 of the front covered using the full 24" width. 30" would probably do it, but again you face the whole curing issue. Geo Knight makes a really large press (3' x 4') but it retails for almost $8000. 

Dan is correct that having more than one horse in the race helps to reduce the overall expense of bringing on new products. An existing company already has infrastructure in place - accounting, administration, reception, tech support, sales - the list goes on & on. An interesting twist is that the sales and support personel at such a company have to be far more educated in their products as they will often be competing against companies that are direct to garment specific - means their sales and support personel only have one product to know and support - which can be an advantage to them is they really focus.

JMHO!


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## cavedave (Dec 5, 2006)

The 7900 has I think several advantages over the 4900.
1. Its easier to convert, the 4900 has a lot of sensors that need dealing with and the 7900 much less (mainly due to the fact that one supports Auto sheet and Roll vs just Roll), so its easier to do and will be therefore I think more reliable and reliable sooner.
2. 24" width gives you options on doing multiple shirts across, as in the Jumbo and this increases production by quite a bit as you have less turn around time (the head spends more time printing and less changing direction).

Other than that dot sizes, resolutions etc.. they are identical.

Now while there is a $1500 price difference, becuase the 4900 isgoing to be more work to convert you have to consider the extra cost in terms of the capital expendidture of building the machine and probably some extra costs on a per machine basis. So the the final price difference when you take engineering and build costs may be less than $1500 (certainly wont be more), although you dont know fully until you are done.

The down side is size, many users dont want a big machine and from a marketing point of view selling a smaller foot print can be important (US Screen ended up building the Blazer Express, because the Pro was to big for some customers).
That said the 4900 is already quite a bit bigger than the 4880, so I guess it comes down to where you want to be in the market and what customer you are targeting. 

Chips are available for the 7900, not aware of production of chips for the 4900.

Best regards

-David


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