# printing film positive



## uberchupacabre (Jun 5, 2007)

My first film positives never came out because the ink wouldn't dry on the sheets. It was this 3m transparency film and I was printing on an epson r1800 printer.

I read a bunch of other posts here and I am trying to narrow down what I need and make sure I'm clear on everything before I buy something that's not going to work.

things to get:
RIP software for a denser ink on my positives and halftones

FastINK
FastPOSITIVE waterproof film

It sounds like I need to get both the special ink for my printer and the waterproof film which is twice as expensive as regular film. Is this true or can I use regular non-waterproof film with the FastINK or regular ink with the waterproof film?

I also saw this other stuff called Chromopaque Film Chromopaque film opens up new opportunities and lowers costs for screen printers unimagined a few years ago. By using a high quality piezo inkjet printer, RIP and Chromopaque film, a screen printer virtually has a replacement for a high priced imagesetter:

This stuff is $20 cheaper then FastPOSITIVE waterproof film and I wanted to see if anyone has used it before and if you need special ink.

I also really only want to buy a couple sheets of film positive and see how it works but I have only seen in in 100 sheets. Does anyone know where they sell smaller quantity's?

I live in the LA area more specifically between LA and Santa Barbara. If you know good place for screen printing supplies in that area let me know.


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## Fluid (Jun 20, 2005)

I'm sure you can get sample sheets of film for testing from the supplier. I have FastINK waterproof and the waterproof films. If you don't use these and get water on your films they will be ruined as the ink will just wipe/wash off. Just take good care of your films and do not get wet.

Hopefully someone will chime in with answers to the the rest of your questions. Good Luck


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## KoalaTees (Jul 25, 2007)

Hi, I am a new screen printer and trying to learn about making the clear positive films. I was using a laser printer at work on a ink-jet transpanecy and it works. Probably not the best. So if I wanted to by an Epson printer for at home (start up business) and films, can someone recommend a entry level printer?


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## Fluid (Jun 20, 2005)

the epson R1800 is a good plate maker along with a rip (for halftones & denser ink deposit) 

do a forums search for 

film positives
Xante
Epson R1800

you'll get tons of info and suggestions from previous posts


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## uberchupacabre (Jun 5, 2007)

KoalaTees said:


> Hi, I am a new screen printer and trying to learn about making the clear positive films. I was using a laser printer at work on a ink-jet transpanecy and it works. Probably not the best. So if I wanted to by an Epson printer for at home (start up business) and films, can someone recommend a entry level printer?


I got the r1800 when I was doing graphic design and its awesome. You'll need a wide format printer if you want to print larger than 8.5 X 11. The r1800 goes up to 13 inches wide and if you use a roll it can go to any length. I think the one below it is the 1280 (not sure of the exact number) but that one is a couple years old and pretty dated. The cost is $400 and up I bought mine off the epson site and it was refurbished. If you want to use it for printing other things you have to buy the epson paper or it will look like crap. It's a great printer and I've got some amazing prints from it.


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## uberchupacabre (Jun 5, 2007)

Fluid said:


> the epson R1800 is a good plate maker along with a rip (for halftones & denser ink deposit)
> 
> do a forums search for
> 
> ...


Yeah I read them I just wanted some clarification


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## RichardGreaves (Nov 7, 2006)

uberchupacabre said:


> It sounds like I need to get both the special ink for my printer and the waterproof film which is twice as expensive as regular film.
> 
> Is this true or can I use regular non-waterproof film with the FastINK or regular ink with the waterproof film?


The sad thing about the commonly used term waterproof film is that it is not accurate, and was coined when DYE inkjet printers were the norm. In 2003, EPSON stopped making the Stylus 3000 and moved to pigment inks because they have a 99 year life when you print pictures of the family.

DYE inks bleed like crazy with you get any water on them! Nano porous coatings on pigment inkjet films don't let the ink bleed.

Water proof film _*can't actually be waterproof*_, or water based ink would be repelled! It should be called *bleed resistant* film, but it got named before pigment inks were mainstream. Pigment inks must use nano porous coatings because the particles in the ink needs to be able to go into the coating.
Inkjet Film for Screen Making Positives

I posted this thread:
http://www.t-shirtforums.com/screen-printing/t24940.html#post147710

FastINK is DYE ink sold by usscreen.com and they recommend their 'waterproof' film, rather than film with a swellable coating used for DYE ink that is half the price of nano porous film.

Nano porous coating can absorb DYE or Pigment ink, much like a gravel driveway will absorb anything you pour on it.

The reason the EPSON 3000 was such a hit was because it used DYE ink and had a media setting for Back Light Film. Alas, that is not the case anymore, because all the modern EPSON printers use Pigment Ink.
EPSON Printers for making Screen Printing Positives


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## uberchupacabre (Jun 5, 2007)

RichardGreaves said:


> The sad thing about the commonly used term waterproof film is that it is not accurate, and was coined when DYE inkjet printers were the norm. In 2003, EPSON stopped making the Stylus 3000 and moved to pigment inks because they have a 99 year life when you print pictures of the family.
> 
> DYE inks bleed like crazy with you get any water on them! Nano porous coatings on pigment inkjet films don't let the ink bleed.
> 
> ...


Thank you this helped a lot.


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## JeridHill (Feb 8, 2006)

uberchupacabre said:


> Thank you this helped a lot.


This is why we recommend to upgrade to dye inks with the r1800. You can use non waterproof film or waterproof (nano porous). The waterproof film with dye inks are virtually indestructable. Dye inks are also lesser priced than pigments.


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## fooledbyfresner (Feb 24, 2008)

Can anyone suggest an ink for printing out of an epson 2400 on film? I don't want to buy anything from UScreen and I've heard that the ink they use is nothing special-. I didn't act on the info when I should have so I was wondering if anyone else had any luck with other suppliers. 

And just for anyone else- The Epson 2400 has worked really well for me, I wouldn't say it's ready to go out of the box but I had a couple of T-jet 3's that never worked so I was well trained on the Epson tools programs to get it going and cross any road blocks. As for RIP software. Accurip has to be the easiest and most reliable. No Hassle and it's pretty much ready to go as soon as you download it.
On films- I've tried a few and have not noticed any difference between porous films. I've tried fast films and the bargain film from my local distibuter. They both worked equally well. 

Also- I thought I had seen somewhere that a company had developed an all black system or a bulk system to replace the other cartridges. For those that don't know, even if you only produce positives on your printer you end up using up your color cartridges to through cycles and cleaning and nozzle checks.


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## adawg2252 (Dec 12, 2007)

fooledbyfresner said:


> Can anyone suggest an ink for printing out of an epson 2400 on film? I don't want to buy anything from UScreen and I've heard that the ink they use is nothing special-. I didn't act on the info when I should have so I was wondering if anyone else had any luck with other suppliers.
> 
> And just for anyone else- The Epson 2400 has worked really well for me, I wouldn't say it's ready to go out of the box but I had a couple of T-jet 3's that never worked so I was well trained on the Epson tools programs to get it going and cross any road blocks. As for RIP software. Accurip has to be the easiest and most reliable. No Hassle and it's pretty much ready to go as soon as you download it.
> On films- I've tried a few and have not noticed any difference between porous films. I've tried fast films and the bargain film from my local distibuter. They both worked equally well.
> ...



US Screen has made a bulk system for the R1800. It sits outside the printer and attaches tubing (much like the TJet 3 setup) to the R1800. It makes all colors except #4 Matte Black "print" their HD cleaning fluid, and obviously #4 is their Fast Ink Dye ink. You use 8oz refill bottles of the HD cleaner and the Fast Ink Dye ink.

Since you don't like US Screen I won't recommend it to you, even though I know several people who use their bulk system and have great luck with it.

I still have my Epson 3000 and will NEVER get rid of it.


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## tpitman (Jul 30, 2007)

uberchupacabre said:


> I also saw this other stuff called Chromopaque Film Chromopaque film opens up new opportunities and lowers costs for screen printers unimagined a few years ago. By using a high quality piezo inkjet printer, RIP and Chromopaque film, a screen printer virtually has a replacement for a high priced imagesetter:
> 
> This stuff is $20 cheaper then FastPOSITIVE waterproof film and I wanted to see if anyone has used it before and if you need special ink.


I bought a box of the Chromopaque from Screener's Choice to run through my HP9800 using Ghostscript, and I've got to tell you, the films are as dense and sharp as any I got from an Epson 2200 using FastRip and FastInk. I'd been using regular film, which worked good enough, but the positives I'm getting now are the best I've had. I had to adjust my printer settings, but I actually set them to use less ink than before with the other film.

Try it, you won't be disappointed.


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## fooledbyfresner (Feb 24, 2008)

What ink are you using?


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## tpitman (Jul 30, 2007)

Hewlett Packards' Vivera ink, it's what comes with the printer.


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## [email protected] (Mar 9, 2008)

I had the same problem with my ink & film from US Screen Printing Institute with the Epson printer. I had this problem time after time for months & they kept telling me they had sent me a bad batch of ink. They could never correct the problem for me so I packed the whole thing up and send it back for a refund. Drove Me crazy.


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## adawg2252 (Dec 12, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> I had the same problem with my ink & film from US Screen Printing Institute with the Epson printer. I had this problem time after time for months & they kept telling me they had sent me a bad batch of ink. They could never correct the problem for me so I packed the whole thing up and send it back for a refund. Drove Me crazy.


What was going on? The ink and film wouldn't stick? Was it their printer too or were you using their stuff in a different printer?

Do they actually make the ink themselves?


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## fooledbyfresner (Feb 24, 2008)

adawg2252 said:


> What was going on? The ink and film wouldn't stick? Was it their printer too or were you using their stuff in a different printer?
> 
> Do they actually make the ink themselves?


From what I have heard at trade shows is that they do not make the film or the ink. I was told by a pretty good source that the film is just standard water resistant/pourus whatever film that is identical to your local distributers economy film. 
I've heard from various sources that they charge a lot for the same ink that you can get cheaeper from other people. I've not had any problem with the ink other than if it gets wet it will wipe away and it takes a long time to dry. The Film works fine for me through my new printer but my old printer used to tear it up- so mainly a printer issue.

I don't like giving any money to USScreen becouse I think they take advantage of the screen printing community. I would love to find other sources for film and ink.


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## adawg2252 (Dec 12, 2007)

I use generic ink in my Epson 3000 with no problems at all. I use non-waterproof films by Autotype. 

Have you tried other brands? Ulano makes a wp and non-wp inkjet film. There are a few other brands I've seen online but were hesitant to try since I'm having great success with what I'm using now.

....BUT Autotype doesn't seem to make the Zeta film anymore, so I am forced to switch.


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## fooledbyfresner (Feb 24, 2008)

adawg2252 said:


> I use generic ink in my Epson 3000 with no problems at all. I use non-waterproof films by Autotype.
> 
> Have you tried other brands? Ulano makes a wp and non-wp inkjet film. There are a few other brands I've seen online but were hesitant to try since I'm having great success with what I'm using now.
> 
> ....BUT Autotype doesn't seem to make the Zeta film anymore, so I am forced to switch.



Where do you get your ink from?


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## adawg2252 (Dec 12, 2007)

fooledbyfresner said:


> Where do you get your ink from?


Anywhere. We have stores called "Cartridge World" in Boston and I've bought their ink. They won't refill my 3000 carts but I've used their refills in my HP all-in-one printer with the zeta film cut to an 8.5 x 11 sheet with no problem.

I've bought refill kits at wal-mart and target where you just use a syringe and refill the cartridge. Since the 3000 uses a bag inside the plastic cart, I jsut refill from the opening and put in a decent amount at a time. Sometimes it gets messy.

I don't remember the brand names as I haven't needed to refill for a while, but I've bought two different ones and had good enough results that I wasn't worried.

Sometimes I touch up positives with an opaque pen for safety, but seldom do I have exposure issues.


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## rambla (Jul 30, 2007)

Hi I'm new to this but I have an Epson r2400 and I want to make my own film positives. If I use the stock black ink will it work? What settings do I have to use and will I need a rip? Please help if you had this problem from the start. My film looks not that dark. Thanks


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## sportyblack (Apr 9, 2012)

I am also looking at finding film positive in rolls slightly frosted or not so clear film. can anyone help me with finding this? and Im using an inkjet printer by the way.


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## RichardGreaves (Nov 7, 2006)

*Looking for inkjet film*



sportyblack said:


> I am also looking at finding film positive in rolls slightly frosted or not so clear film.
> 
> can anyone help me with finding this?












To make screen printing positives with an inkjet printer, you must have an *absorbent coating* on clear film. 

Dye inks are 100% liquid and can be absorbed by a *'swellable'* coating like the *gelatin* used in indirect stencil films. 

Pigment inks require a micro porous coating with microscopic cavities that can absorb the resin coated pigment particles with natural capillary action. The open cavities refract light and give it a cloudy of milky appearance but they don't effect UV energy as it passes through the film during exposure. Micro porous coated film is compatible with dye or pigment inks, but nobody seems to want to make the less expensive swellable coating film.. 


*Waterproof? ahhh no*
Often, *nano porous or micro porous* coatings are mistakenly called water proof. If you lick your fingers and pinch either film, you will make one side sticky as it absorbs the moisture with capillary action. Dye inks re-wet and bleed if you get water on them. 

In the late 1990's when the majority of inkjet printers used water based dye ink, suppliers started selling the more expensive micro porous coating as "water proof" to printers who wanted to pay for a safer coating in case their staff spill something on the positive. Pigment Inkjet Films are made to absorb water based inks, but they are not waterproof, rather they are "bleed-resistant".








Please don't buy transparency film, because you want *OPAQUE* positives that stop UV energy. That requires a thicker coating and lots of *EPSON* ink jet ink - preferably increased with a *screen printing RIP* - not a color management RIP.

Any screen printing distributor can furnish you with inkjet film for screen printing positives such as these industry giants:

SourceOne Florida 
division of Nazdar
13160 NW 43rd Ave. 
Opa Locka , FL 33054
Toll Free: +800-788-0554
T: +913-422-2214 
F: +305-817-8284
www.sourceoneonline.com

Tubelite Co. Inc.
102 Semoran Commerce Place
Apopka, FL 32703
Toll Free:+800-432-8526
T: +407-884-0477
www.tubelite.com


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## theartguy (Aug 27, 2008)

anyone ever seen their inkjet film positives turn yellow over time? we are a film house and do film for a large number of companies, we use mostly all black dmax dye ink and film in an epson 4900 for the majority of small size prints, recently one customer has come to me and almost all of his exposed film has turned YELLOW and bleed around the ink edges, some of the film is 1 year old some if it is only 1 month old, it also seems to be limited to this one customer but is a large amount of film but only about 20% of the film we output overall. we are thinking something is happening when its exposed but so far we are all stumped even the distributor for the ink and film. none of our other customers seem to be affected. his film is stored in a wooden storage cabinet with large manilla envelopes, it mostly affects films that face the back of another film, Im assuming trapping moisture of some kind- however the film itself sits out for days or more before its stored, plenty dry itself the have is yellow like emulsion activator, they are very unhappy with me however is is only their film doing it. any help would be greatly appreciated


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## RichardGreaves (Nov 7, 2006)

*Re: All Black dmax Dye inkjet ink forms yellow halo around image on inkjet film positive*



theartguy said:


> anyone ever seen their inkjet film positives turn yellow over time?
> 
> we are a film house and do film for a large number of companies, we use mostly *all black dmax dye ink* and film in an epson 4900 for the majority of small size prints,
> 
> ...


The nature of a dye ink is that they use more additives.

Stacking, or putting positives in *any *envelope forces the non-porous polyester backing against the ink receptive coating you print on and the ink can no longer evaporate.

Modern inkjet inks used for positives are water based and still need time to evaporate and dry. Micro porous coatings required to accept pigment particles my be dry to the touch because they move inside the coating and you finger cant feel them. They're never "instant dry", because the aqueous vehicle moisture still has to evaporate to dry, just like a direct emulsion stencil or a water-based ink. The ink appears to be dry to the touch, (dry as a tomato), but the liquid carrier still has to evaporate. 
http://www.ulano.com/ijf/ijffaq.htm

A benefit of the nano porous coating is that the positive can be stacked and handled very quickly, but that doesn't mean the ink is dry! 

If it's a humid day, the ink might not dry and the vacuum of the exposure unit can pull wet ink out of the film coating and stain the stencil during exposure, because the positive has lost some ink during the process, it shouldn't be used again.

I know of no science pointing to how an inkjet coating accelerates the evaporation, thus drying, thus curing if the solids or dye we want to remain.

Your positive isn't stable until the moisture & solvents leave and the pigment or dried dye coloring material stays in the film coating.

If the ink's dry, it can't move outside your image.

*Do you, or don't you want the ink to dry quickly?*
Ink manufacturers need to balance nozzle maintenance and the desire to have an ink that dries quickly after printing so a positive can be used to make a screen. *Head clog prevention always wins out.*

Glycol or glycerol humectant (wetting agent), or fungicides are solvent additives in the water based ink used to retard drying, prevent nozzle blockage or mold. The water and solvents need to evaporate the same way stencil coatings need to dry.

These solvent additives are often yellow. They show up in the image when the film has been covered, stacked, rolled, or especially when put in a sealed tube. The effect is often called a "ghost image" or halo.

When evaporation is prevented by the non-absorbent polyester backing (rolled or stacked), the water (clear), and solvents (yellow), *migrate horizontally* - not up.

*Solution*
To accelerate the curing process and prevent the ghost image, I recommend you slip sheet your fresh prints with newsprint and not roll them until it's absolutely necessary without a newsprint sheet. 

*Epson Recommends*
Depending upon the environmental conditions, Epson recommends that you let your prints “outgass” into their interleaving papers (Epson Singleweight Matte, Doubleweight Matte and Presentation Matte), *for at least 48 hours* before framing. Epson suggests you replace the interleaving paper at the 24 hour mark with a fresh sheet. 
http://www.epson.com/cgi-bin/Store/...id=63049309&foid=64755&cat=53478&subcat=53482

Newsprint is porous and capillary action will draw the shy moisture & solvents out of the film coating. The newsprint paper will start ripple & wave as it takes on moisture & solvents.

So for the most dry positives, dry then in an area or cabinet that has a low relative humidity and change absorbent paper every 24 hours. 

A test with newsprint will help determine if our yellow halo is ink or humectant. Make a small test positive and cover half the image with newsprint to see if both sides yellow.

This is a big subject. I welcome followup questions.


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## KDS (Dec 23, 2014)

*Re: All Black dmax Dye inkjet ink forms yellow halo around image on inkjet film positive*



RichardGreaves said:


> A test with newsprint will help determine if our yellow halo is ink or humectant. Make a small test positive and cover half the image with newsprint to see if both sides yellow.
> 
> This is a big subject. I welcome followup questions.


 Amazing dude. Thanks for the info, I will defiantly take your advice.

I was planning on saving my positives incase a customer wants a few of a past order, or just to archive them personally. 

Thanks again.


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