# a good screen printing start up kit....



## MikeyFingaz (Dec 28, 2005)

there are so many on the web.... who has the best one for the price.... i would like to spend less than $1500 bucks or so on one..... i am starting out doing shirts as they get ordered....


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## Comin'OutSwingin (Oct 28, 2005)

*Re: a good start up kit....*

What kind of startup kit?


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## MikeyFingaz (Dec 28, 2005)

*Re: a good start up kit....*



Comin'OutSwingin said:


> What kind of startup kit?


i think i found a good one... i am looking to have something in my house, and is pretty much minimalistic... i want to be able to do shirts as they are ordered...

thanx for the reply, you have always tried to help when i asked a question.... it hasnt went unnoticed


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## Rodney (Nov 3, 2004)

*Re: a good start up kit....*



> i think i found a good one... i am looking to have something in my house, and is pretty much minimalistic... i want to be able to do shirts as they are ordered...


Care to share what you found?

From your original question it was a bit unclear what type of startup kit you were looking for (what printing method, etc).

Maybe your find will help others in a similar situation


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## MikeyFingaz (Dec 28, 2005)

*Re: a good start up kit....*



Rodney said:


> Care to share what you found?
> 
> From your original question it was a bit unclear what type of startup kit you were looking for (what printing method, etc).
> 
> Maybe your find will help others in a similar situation


Rodney, here is what i will probably be using...

http://www.silkscreeningsupplies.com/site/799934/product/1008

i am going to be selling simple bold letter print desings stretching across the chest with a small border around the letters, using spot printing techniques. there will be one base color word desings, and a few one color word designs with a border spaced out from the main letters a bit in a different color.

i will also be making about 6-10 different versions of designs eventually, but will save & reuse every design i make.

there will be no butting of colors (atleast not until i get better at printing) even then, the most complex design i will have will be a three color design going horizontal ( like the irish flag, or asomething). 

my target market will be mixed martial arts folks, bikers, extreme sportists, skaters, hot girls, colleges, nighclubs, independently owned chopper shops, tattoo shops, head shops, myspace, a really good web design, innovative marketing using some girls from the adult industry who are famous, and some good link trades along with some really good S.E.O.

to start, i want a machine that i can fit in my apartment, it only need be a 3 color press, and i will print the shirts as i need them. i will be saving every design i create, and will make only about 6-10 designs total. this set up says it can do 40-120 shirts per hour. i figure being new at this, and the fact that i will be doing lots of double flashing because alot of the shirts will be black, so im guessing i can do 25 shirts per hour. i will also be doing ballcaps, hoodies, and long sleeve t's, all with the same logos...


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## Jehozadak (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: a good start up kit....*



MikeyFingaz said:


> Rodney, here is what i will probably be using...
> 
> http://www.silkscreeningsupplies.com/site/799934/product/1008


Does anyone have any input on the quality of this piece of equipment? This post http://www.t-shirtforums.com/showthread.php?t=2222 seems to suggest that it isn't as good for graphical designs like that of threadless shirts. At least thats what I figured from the line about 'close registration', which is what I will be wanting to print. I had this product as one of my first choices but now I am not so sure.


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## ironhead (Dec 28, 2005)

I don't think you can add micro adjustments to that press which are a good thing to have if your doing multi color jobs.
I would look into this press if money is tight. http://www.livingstonsystems.com/
You have the options to add more arms later or buy micros later.
I use it as a one color press right now and it works fine.


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## Jehozadak (Feb 4, 2006)

Thanks for the tip. I didn't really know what micro-registration/adjustments were, but after some research I agree, they are probably pretty good to have for multi color jobs, which is most likely what I will be doing. I don't really have a certain amount i want to spend, but this doesn't mean I want to get the most expensive, just what I'll need to print shirts with quality. I've seen examples of good kits from $1500 - $3000, and if there is a trusted piece of equipment for around that range I would consider looking into it. Is there anyone with who has experience with something like that?


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## MikeyFingaz (Dec 28, 2005)

Hey all, I went back & started going thru my old threads & trying to find answers on some noob questions I had....

I am bumping this thread to ask about the press kit that was suggested as an alternative to mine that I originally posted....

Does anyone have any experience with this press???

can this press

http://www.livingstonsystems.com/

Make these type of designs


http://images.google.com/imgres?img...images?q=lucky+13&svnum=10&hl=en&lr=&safe=off


Cannot get the actual page of shirts to load, it keeps sending me to the frontpage, but Im asking about the t shirt sections, for the guys & dolls... Do you guys thing the above printer can handle jobs like that???


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## MikeyFingaz (Dec 28, 2005)

And how about this one for a back up that is used strictly for one or two color simple font text like old english letters & simple designs of the trucker mud flap girl for example???

http://www.dharmatrading.com/html/eng/1935751-AA.shtml?lnav=tools.html


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## neato (Mar 21, 2006)

Those are both considered hobby presses. From the looks of them, I can't imagine that they would hold registration good enough to do high end work like the picture you linked to.


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## MikeyFingaz (Dec 28, 2005)

neato said:


> Those are both considered hobby presses. From the looks of them, I can't imagine that they would hold registration good enough to do high end work like the picture you linked to.


The four color printer has an option for adding micro-registration... if I added the micro-registration to it, would it be doable then???


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## neato (Mar 21, 2006)

Micro Registration is great, but if the press is flimsy, it won't mean anything. Micro reg. is only going to help you line up the screens to your artwork, not hold registration while you print.

If you're looking for a table top size printer, check out the Odyssey:

http://www.workhorseproducts.com/products/manual_printing/odyssey_tabletop.shtml

Or the CAPS Table top:

http://caps-screenprinting.com/t-shirts.asp


These are both serious presses. They will hold fantastic registration. And often you can find used ones for $500-$1000

Go over to screenprinters.net and join the forums. They are a bunch of very knowledgable people who will guide you in the right direction.


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## MikeyFingaz (Dec 28, 2005)

neato said:


> Micro Registration is great, but if the press is flimsy, it won't mean anything. Micro reg. is only going to help you line up the screens to your artwork, not hold registration while you print.
> 
> If you're looking for a table top size printer, check out the Odyssey:
> 
> ...


 
Thanks. Good stuff to know. I will check those out....


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## ffokazak (Feb 23, 2006)

I think the Silkscreen supplies press would be fine for what you have said you want to do. You COULD go out and buy a press with micro reg, but you would spend more, and you'd need Emulsion. And Ink. And Ghost image remover. And Emuslion remover. And screens. and Squeegees, and a scoop coater. and ink scoops, and. we;ll i think you get the idea. Oops! and a flash dryer! and a , hahaha. Thats it, thats what you'll need. And with my experience with local screenprinters suppliers prices, they cant compete with online stores prices. I would recommend this press, for a beginer. Its solid, strong, and yeah you wont be able to do a 7 colour fine reg, but you will get a press and ALL theh chems, and supplies you need to learn.If you dont like it, you could sell it for damn near what you got for it, if you slip up the flash dryer and press. I think a flash goes for like 350$ on Ebay. Anyways, Its a complete kit, and you wont have to run around looking for a scoop coater for less that 45$ , blah blah blah. 
Good Luck, and welcome into the wonderful world of getting ink all over the place!


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## Krikon (Jun 15, 2006)

What iv'e been thinking of was getting a 1 color press complete package and maybe do a few details in other colors by mixing techniques like stenciling.

I would of course only do screenprinting for my own line of tees iv'e been designing and will try to sell but if one get a little bit creative i think there's ways to work around paying billions for a multicolor system.

But then again, if you will do tees for others when u get the orders for them this might not work, dunno.....


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## Solmu (Aug 15, 2005)

Krikon said:


> What iv'e been thinking of was getting a 1 color press complete package and maybe do a few details in other colors by mixing techniques like stenciling.


This is certainly possible. It will make it more labour intensive, each product will be different (a good thing for some markets, bad for some), and there'll be some things you just won't be able to do. But you don't need to be able to do everything at once from the beginning.

I'd say the majority of people start with smaller equipment and then upgrade - very few people would buy something straight up (a six colour six station for example) that meets their needs for some time to come.

Some people even start out with no press (not even a one arm) just printing on a table or on the floor.



Krikon said:


> i think there's ways to work around paying billions for a multicolor system.


A multi-colour press isn't exactly a space station...

We're talking of (ballpark figures) of say $400-500 versus $2400 - it's not a lot of money for a piece of business equipment.

It's a matter of what you can afford though... if you're trying to start a screenprinting setup on $1000... then I'd say go ahead and do that and look at 1 or 2 colour setups. If your budget can stretch further you're better off getting bigger/better equipment from the start, but if you either can't afford it, or are not sure you want to commit to the risk (i.e. you've never printed before and you're not actually sure it's something you want to do) then by all means start smaller - upgrading later is definitely an option, and a lot of people make good money doing one colour shirts.


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## MotoskinGraphix (Apr 28, 2006)

So...his question was what is a good startup press??? This one, this one or this one....he heard some feedback from folks that new good statup presses out of his price range for sure. What should he look at in his price range?


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## neato (Mar 21, 2006)

MotoskinGraphix said:


> What should he look at in his price range?


Frankly, nothing.


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## MikeyFingaz (Dec 28, 2005)

neato said:


> Frankly, nothing.


 
So your saying none of the presses refered to in this thread are worthy???

Also, what do think is a good press... Im not talking about some high dollar automated 8 station press... I dont need that... I am looking for an entry level press that can be used for a small business... I will NOT be doing orders where customers ask for me to make them a certain type design... i will be selling my own designs... And frankly, none of them will be that complex of a design.


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## Rodney (Nov 3, 2004)

MikeyFingaz said:


> So your saying none of the presses refered to in this thread are worthy???
> 
> Also, what do think is a good press... Im not talking about some high dollar automated 8 station press... I dont need that... I am looking for an entry level press that can be used for a small business.


I think phillip pointed out a couple of good presses in page one of this topic:
http://www.t-shirtforums.com/showpost.php?p=21309&postcount=13


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## neato (Mar 21, 2006)

Yeah, I'm really not trying to sound like a jerk. I just don't like to see people throw their money away. I started out with a cheap press and was about ready to quit printing altogether. But fortunately, I found a 4 color, 4 station Hopkins press very cheap. Glad I did. It made a world of difference.

Please, either look for a used name-brand press, or save a little longer and buy new. 

Unless you're doing only one color work, then just make your own press out of plywood and a couple of jiffy hinges.


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## MikeyFingaz (Dec 28, 2005)

Thanks Rodney & Phillip... I checked those two links out the other day when you posted them & both of those presses actually look pretty nice... I couldnt find an actual price for the workhorse model, I suppose I will call them & get a price, plus I will need to ask them if they sell a kit with that particular press... I would like to get a kit to start since Im a noob... I figurre it will give me all the materials so I can start the learning process right away, plus I will know exactly what chemicals & other tools & such I will need when Its time to re-supply on certain things like ink & squeegies & such... That was one of the reasons I liked the SilkScreeningSupplies kit...

I really really like the one by CAPS International ( start up kit)... It looks like a very stout press & has micro-registration... It also looks like a press that would be able to do more complex art & different colors once I start getting better at my craft... Eventually, I will do shirts like the ones LUCKY THIRTEEN Clothing do.. They are 2-3 sometimes 4 color prints, with white actually being one of the colors showing in the art work (please correct me if Im wrong, but if white is a color to be used in the actual final print, then you dont really have to give up one color because of doing black shirts right? I mean, you only have to give up a color to black shirts if the white is strictly used to brighten the other colors, as opposed to it being a part of the design right?)

I honestly dont think I would ever try to do shirts any more complicated than the ones like LUCKY THIRTEEN... Thats about as far as I would ever try to go I think... Both of the presses Phillip listed originally look like they could definately hande it... 

I like the fact that the CAPS press comes in a kit ( the 4color, 1station press, start up kit) that gives you everything to start, the exposure unit, flash cure, ect... Plus it has the ability to add another station later if desired. It cost about twice as much as I wanted to spend, but I figure that after talking with you guys that the SilkScreenSupplies kit wouldnt be able to handle images like the LUCKY THIRTEEN designs because of no micro-registration...

I suppose I will just keep on saving my pennies & wait a little longer to buy one of the ones Phillip posted links to... I just want to hurry up & get started... Not only for the money, but because I know I will like making stuff & being able to tell people I made it myself...


EDITED TO ADD: MAn, I feel like I have been asking so many stupid questions the last few days... but I got to ask this one too... Once I but the press (probably the CAPS one) how many shirts would you guys say I could make in an 8 hour day, if I already had my frames with art work ready to go & I had to do a defferent design for each & every shirt???

I mean, say I have 15 different designs that my customers could choose from & everybody ordered different ones... With all my frames ready to go & organized, about how many could I expect to do if I had to set up for each different shirt, but I had a helper doing the other stuff like washing ink off screens once Im done with that image & so on...

I know this is absolutely the most time consuming way to do it, but I have no idea what to expect... I mean for an 8 hour day could you do 10, 50, 100, 200, more??? I have no idea what I could produce in a day... Im almost scared that I wouldnt be able to keep up with orders (of course that being optimistic that my shirts sell lol)


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## EngBulldog (Dec 14, 2005)

I haven't posted in a awhile but I still follow this board, so I thought I'd add some info to this thread. In the past year I have spent about $3500 on equipment.........all the equipment is used but in great shape and from quality manufacturers. Personally, I wouldn't buy a 1 color press because you will outgrow it shortly and want to do multi-colored stuff. Between ebay, the screenprinters.net classifieds, your local classifieds, craigs list, etc. there is a bunch of stuff out there. Granted I have had to take some road trips as well as pay some freight but I believe it was worth it. Here is a break-down of my stuff............

Roger Jennings stand-up 4 color 4 station press with micros ($750 from local shop here in South Carolina)

Hix exposure unit ($350 from same shop)

National conveyor dryer 3 ft by 6 ft ($1100 with freight from California)

National Heat Press 15 x15 ($350 on ebay with shipping)

Flash Cure 16x16 ($300 from ebay with shipping.......I put in bid instead of buying it now and saved a hundred bucks).

Ricoh 7000 laser printer 12x18 format ($900, this was probably the best deal that I got because this printer is perfect. I drove to Kentucky to pick this up but originally found it from a google search. It prints both screen positives as well as transfers via laser dye sublimation................mainly for multi-color short runs).

Vacuum platen to greatly assist in pressing multi-color plastisol transfers ($150 from screenprinters.net)

Okay so this a little over $3500 and still does not count graphics software, washout booth, chemicals, inks, etc. etc. etc. But at the same time it is not an enormous amount to invest in starting a business. My wife and I started this about 2 years ago. We had 5 different designs printed and sold out of them pretty quickly. Since then I have been getting contracts and learning the industry inside and out. We now have over 1200 designs on paper waiting to be outputted. We are currently refinancing our house to cash some money out and I am resigning from my federal government job in two months. I COULDN'T BE HAPPIER....................a little nervous yes.................but you cannot succeed without risk. Take care, and again look diligently for used equipment


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## Solmu (Aug 15, 2005)

EngBulldog said:


> Ricoh 7000 laser printer 12x18 format ($900, this was probably the best deal that I got because this printer is perfect. I drove to Kentucky to pick this up but originally found it from a google search. It prints both screen positives as well as transfers via laser dye sublimation................mainly for multi-color short runs).


I take it you'd recommend this printer then?

I'm not happy with what I'm currently using to output film, so I'm looking to upgrade. I need something that can do opaque film output for screenprinting (duh ), and good colour on paper for something unrelated - it sounds like if you're using this for dye sub it also has good colour output.



EngBulldog said:


> We are currently refinancing our house to cash some money out and I am resigning from my federal government job in two months. I COULDN'T BE HAPPIER....................a little nervous yes.................but you cannot succeed without risk.


Congratulations on your success.


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## EngBulldog (Dec 14, 2005)

I researched printers for a long time before I bought the Ricoh. I have been advised over and over to go with laser over inkjet. The only problem is it is very hard to find a laser that prints 12 by 18 at a reasonable price. Most screen-printers may not need to get that large but we have an entire "golf theme" line that is 12 inches on the back and I did not want to take any short cuts. I almost bought a Xante which is also a great laser printer but that deal went south. If you go to http://boards.screenprinters.net/ and click on the digital transfers tab, you will find several posts about dyesub transfers (check the ones comparing laser and inkjet). There is a supplier on there named Al Acosta who has been a great help to me on this subjet. His username is sublial and the company website is http://www.atttransfer.com. The company mainly supplies laser dye-sub toners and release papers that work well on 50/50 shirts as well as 100% cotton. This has been a problem with dyesub in the past and one reason I wouldn't go that route before..........because the special shirts for that process were so expensive. Now that it works on your basic gildan t-shirt that costs $1.50 I am more of a fan. Though I am still getting set up and not fully running yet, still I have seen the samples and they are great quality and comparable to screen printing as far a longevity goes. The only limitation is that you cannot transfer on darks yet but they are working on a solution that will be available soon. 

My main obstacle was this...........I have several designs and obviously cannot screen-print multi-color jobs on demand for 1 or 2 shirts at a time, I also cannot stock that many designs with all the different sizes, I currently cannot print 4 color process but am learning as fast as I can. I also want quality items and am not a real fan of standard heat press transfers, because of the quality as well as the increased cost when you are dealing with large volume.

Solutions, I learned how to screen-print plastisol transfers and can store them and print on demand. I will use this process on all dark shirts as well as all spot color prints. For true 4 color process, we will use the Ricoh printer and do laser dye sublimation transfers. For any jobs that are high volume right up front then we will do standard screen-printing on the actual garments. Our only limitation is we cannot print 4 color process currently on dark shirts.........but this will be remedied soon when the toner for darks is released.

Sorry for the rambling everybody. For the initial question, yes I like the printer and highly recommend it. Ricoh now makes the 7200 instead of the 7000, I guess they update them every year or so. But I believe the company I mentioned earlier only makes toners that work in the Ricoh 7000 as well as the Okidata. If you do not need large format media and want to get into laser dyesub then I would go with the Oki. They were on sale at Staples for a great price. Not sure what the exact model was but if you look at those boards you will find out. Thanks for the congrats, again I am not really there yet but getting closer everyday. Learning
Illustrator, Photoshop, and Corel has been a real challenge but it's getting smoother on a daily basis. I also need to learn quite a bit about ecommerce, web design, shopping carts, etc......but I need to take it one step at a time. Take care


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## Solmu (Aug 15, 2005)

EngBulldog said:


> Sorry for the rambling everybody.


No worries - it was a bunch of information, so I'm sure it'll help people who come to this thread at some point (including myself).



EngBulldog said:


> For the initial question, yes I like the printer and highly recommend it.


I'm not sure if I want to get into dye sub or not. The results I've seen were interesting, so I'd be stupid to just rule it out, but it doesn't attract me right now. Still, having it as an option is useful. It's more that I need a printer that is capable of colour output, so I figured it should also be up to that task.

My digital camera is a Ricoh as it happens, so my limited exposure to the brand has been very positive.

That gives me some good information to get started anyway (I'd stalled on buying a new printer, but I really should get back to it).



EngBulldog said:


> Thanks for the congrats, again I am not really there yet but getting closer everyday.


We have to start somewhere, and to me taking that first step on what could be the path to your success is an important one. No matter what happens you can say you tried, and that's true of painfully few people. It also sounds like you're well setup, so it's more of a confident stride


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## MikeyFingaz (Dec 28, 2005)

Nice post EngBullDog... Lots of good info in that one


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## van ink (Dec 30, 2006)

I have just recently purchased the Entrepenuer Kit from silkscreeningsupplies.com and it is EXCELLENT. It is a well built machine and works GREAT. The one I have is not a table top- it has a base and it doesn't take up too much room. Right now I have it in a 1 car garage, along with a drafting table, another table top, a washout booth, and many other things. The only thing I can't fit in there is a car.. but who needs one of those?

The machine itself works great and the micro-registration is key. There is minimal to absolutely no leeway for screen movement, so the registration is great. I would recommend this to anyone who is just starting out and has a budget from $3,000 to $5,000.

-dulreich


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## Fluid (Jun 20, 2005)

> Please, either look for a used name-brand press, or save a little longer and buy new.


 XLNT reply. Agree 100%

Plus getting a one color press wil limit anyone to one colors. There are so many used press out there and if you look carefully you might be able to get more for the amount of money you already have to spend.


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## neeci2 (Nov 7, 2007)

First I want to say this is an awsome site. I am a fashion designer and I am using t-shirts as away to promo my line. I am looking into doing the silk screen thing and have started to looking into what equitment is needed. Personal I am not trying to pay that much(500.00 to 2000.00) for the machine. But I found a website ThreadBanger that shows you have to build your own screens from things in craft stores(amongsest other things) and do the prcoss like so. You can also go to YouTube - Broadcast Yourself. and keyword silk screening and awhole lot of video will come up about the process. I dont need to print up alot of t-shirts cuz I am a fashion designer and I am working on my clothing. So I jus want to be able to make up a certain amounts to sell whenever and do ones when ordered. Also I find a silk screening kit put up by speedball. speedball.com and they have a thing where you can but in you zip code and it will tell you where you can buy one. It very startup, like you can use it to practice and/or to print shirts to sale until you get the money to get the big equiment. Just wanted to drop my find in the pot and if anyone has any suggests, please let it be known. I really love what you all are doing in supporting each other in what yall have in common.    :tipthank:


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## buckcreek (Aug 13, 2007)

*Re: a good start up kit....*



Jehozadak said:


> Does anyone have any input on the quality of this piece of equipment? This post http://www.t-shirtforums.com/showthread.php?t=2222 seems to suggest that it isn't as good for graphical designs like that of threadless shirts. At least thats what I figured from the line about 'close registration', which is what I will be wanting to print. I had this product as one of my first choices but now I am not so sure.


I would not recommend this press. I purchased one like this from this company but it is a 6 color 2 station press. It does not have the mico registration and is very hard to line up. I am not impressed with it and I was also not impressed with the flash dryer, it's not build very well. 

I bought this when I was just getting started and didn't know very much about presses. I still don't know a lot about presses but I don't like mine. I'm looking for one now that I can do several colors and simulated process that will hold registration. Haven't decided which one to get.


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## Rick Q. (Mar 26, 2008)

Great thread! Very helpful to a newbie with lots of questions like myself.


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## MotoskinGraphix (Apr 28, 2006)

Stay away from those speedball frames. You can do a print but for the cost you can purchase an alum. frame and get much better results.


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## TJones (Aug 17, 2008)

Ranar, is the package that I started with. Just can't go wrong with their start package.


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## pukingdeserthobo (Jun 3, 2008)

*Re: a good start up kit....*



buckcreek said:


> I would not recommend this press. I purchased one like this from this company but it is a 6 color 2 station press. It does not have the mico registration and is very hard to line up. I am not impressed with it and I was also not impressed with the flash dryer, it's not build very well.
> 
> I bought this when I was just getting started and didn't know very much about presses. I still don't know a lot about presses but I don't like mine. I'm looking for one now that I can do several colors and simulated process that will hold registration. Haven't decided which one to get.


you dont need mic, its like a car automatic or manual you will just need to know how to get around with out the mic, also i believe you said you need it to fit in you room?


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## MikeVastex (Nov 11, 2008)

*Re: a good start up kit....*



pukingdeserthobo said:


> you dont need mic, its like a car automatic or manual you will just need to know how to get around with out the mic, also i believe you said you need it to fit in you room?


I'm sorry but I'm going to have to completely disagree with this statement. A press with/without micros is not comparative to a car's transmission. 

I'd really like to see someone print a 4-8 color job on a press without micro registration. First of all, the amount of time it would take to set up would be extensive. Secondly, if the press doesn't even have micro registration, it's ability to HOLD the registration of the screens is most likely sub-par and you will be constantly loosening screen clamps and bumping your screens to correct this.

Micro registration is VERY important when you want to get into a production screen printing business. EVERY successful screen printer will agree with me on this.


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## DTFuqua (Jun 26, 2008)

If you want very affordable but able to do a very tight multi color shirt, try looking up a fellow goes but the name "Youtees". He sells a minimalistic kit where you provide all the consumables ( screens are consumables) and it sets up in a very small area and holds very tight registration from what I have seen. Too many screen printers starving out there or I would get one but all I am likely to print will be signs or single color T's so I'll most likely just get a set oh clamps/hinges and make something myself.


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## Artsplace-CBR (Feb 22, 2007)

Look at Morantz.com you may be able to get the system for about $150.00 per month.


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## Reyes (Dec 26, 2010)

ffokazak said:


> I think the Silkscreen supplies press would be fine for what you have said you want to do. You COULD go out and buy a press with micro reg, but you would spend more, and you'd need Emulsion. And Ink. And Ghost image remover. And Emuslion remover.
> 
> 
> Hahaha im with you. Im getting my feet wet and wanna try the Screen Printing Starter Kit
> kit out. What is micro reg?


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## DTFuqua (Jun 26, 2008)

Micro tuners/registration is what you need to get the different screens for a multi colored shirt to line up proprely and www.youtees.net has a very good micro tuner set up that comes with his kit.


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