# Pay per month DecoNetwork or OpenTshirts



## mattisme2003

Hi Everyone, 

In order for people to give me the best feedback geared towards my situation, let me describe my background. I am a graphic artist and I'm currently operating as a fulfillment service provider for screen printing, embroidery, etc. In-house, I am able to produce cut vinyl graphics, banners, signs, and thermal pressed cad cut graphics. I'm in the process of growing my business so that I may eventually reach my goal of being able to buy some equipment and bring more production practices in-house. 

I currently do not have a website and I am trying to figure out which route I should take for my online presence and e-commerce site. I have built sites in the past using dreamweaver as well as word press. I do not like the process and work involved in building a website from scratch or even on platforms like wordpress where there are numerous templates available. I have since closed the sites that I created and I am looking for a new alternative. I have been doing some research on different options and I have been considering going the pay per month route with DecoNetwork or the "free" route with OpenTshirts. I would appreciate any input or insight anyone (especially users) could give me regarding their experience and or research as well. 

Pros and Cons I am considering:
*
Pros *(for me)*:*

*DecoNetwork*:

Seemingly easy to start without too much knowledge of web design and development.

With their online design utility and business hub I would have a (seemingly) user friendly design utility and full online integration of quote, order, and invoice management (very useful in my opinion).

Order, invoicing, and quotes are incredibly streamlined and tied in with online approval.

Order and production management from a dedicated mobile application that would allow me to update order status, and access my quotes and orders from anywhere using a tablet, ipad or computer. 

Configure DecoNetwork to output production-ready vector files directly from DecoNetwork. I would assume I might be able to adjust this to work for cad cut vinyl as well?

It's not flash based.

It has features designed for screen printing, dtg, and embroidery, as well as dye sub.

Ability to modify the html or css should I want to make changes.

CorelDraw enabled; supposed to seamlessly integrate with files created in CorelDraw.

*Cons:*

Month to month payments. $149/mo ($1,800/yr before transaction fees) for the version I would want to get.

Plus 1.85% transaction fee on all orders placed online; however not through business hub quoting.

No ctrl z "undo" feature (not really a big deal tho).

It's not opensource and therefore I believe it may potentially limit me in some aspects which I am unaware of at the moment.


*OpenTshirts*:

*Pros:*

Very user friendly; easier than DecoNetwork.

The initial online design module is free. 

I like the color selection options better. For example, 1 color, two color, full, etc. with the ability to invert a one color design. And then the ability to select each color.

I like the ease-ability for designing in OpenTshirts.

No monthly or transaction fees.

The potential for 3rd party modules and updates.

*Cons:*

The ability to zoom in incredibly close; allowing users to take a screen capture and possibly take the art to be recreated elsewhere.

The level of zoom when a garment is loaded is too close for my preference. I'd rather see the whole garment and then zoom in to work on the art (maybe this can be modified) 

Waiting for the further development of OpenTshirts (however as the saying goes, all good things are worth waiting for).

It's a flash based designer; therefore it will not work on iphone's and ipads. And it requires some file manipulation to your designs and clipart to get it "flash ready" or OpenTshirts ready (not terrible however).

Does not have the built in "business hub" like DecoNetwork with the quoting, ordering, and invoicing management utility. 


Thanks, Matt


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## Smokestack

I really don't want this to sound harsh but I think you are putting the cart way way before the horse. You are spending so much time trying to figure out which online t shirt designing system you should go with rather than what (in my opinion) you should be focusing on which is.... you need to get a web site up and running first. You really need to learn the ins and outs of creating, maintaining, and adding content to a web site before you need to be worrying about the t shirt designer. Once you register your domain with whoever you choose to be your hosting provider, you will have access to a control panel that will enable you to install dozens of different tyoes of content management systems, web site templates, and whatever else you will need to get up and running. I can't speak about Deco cause I have no idea about them ( Mainly because I refuse to pay a monthly fee or any fee for that matter for a t shirt designing system)... As far as open tshirts designer, you have mentioned a whole bunch of cons of which you really don't know much about... Installing the system was simple.. There are a half a dozen or so videos available on the ots site giving step by step instructions on how to install the designer into your web site. It is actually rather simple if you follow the step by steps.. Also, there is a whole backend with the ots system that does have invoicing, pricing, quote retrievals, ots is also set up so you can add any type of product you wish.. It doesn't only need to be garments. There is so much you need to really do first before you are worrying about which t shirt designer you want to go with. I'm trying to help you here. Get a web site up and running first, then all the pieces will start falling into place


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## Riderz Ready

Smokestack said:


> I really don't want this to sound harsh but I think you are putting the cart way way before the horse. You are spending so much time trying to figure out which online t shirt designing system you should go with rather than what (in my opinion) you should be focusing on which is.... you need to get a web site up and running first. You really need to learn the ins and outs of creating, maintaining, and adding content to a web site before you need to be worrying about the t shirt designer. Once you register your domain with whoever you choose to be your hosting provider, you will have access to a control panel that will enable you to install dozens of different tyoes of content management systems, web site templates, and whatever else you will need to get up and running. I can't speak about Deco cause I have no idea about them ( Mainly because I refuse to pay a monthly fee or any fee for that matter for a t shirt designing system)... As far as open tshirts designer, you have mentioned a whole bunch of cons of which you really don't know much about... Installing the system was simple.. There are a half a dozen or so videos available on the ots site giving step by step instructions on how to install the designer into your web site. It is actually rather simple if you follow the step by steps.. Also, there is a whole backend with the ots system that does have invoicing, pricing, quote retrievals, ots is also set up so you can add any type of product you wish.. It doesn't only need to be garments. There is so much you need to really do first before you are worrying about which t shirt designer you want to go with. I'm trying to help you here. Get a web site up and running first, then all the pieces will start falling into place


Clearly you are not educated on Deconetwork. It is a website - if you go to our site it is 100 percent Deco yet looks nothing like all the run of the mill on-line design templates.

Always love guys who refuse to pay a monthly fee. Never understand a true business person worrying about what something cost versus how much it can make me. Software is incredibly expensive to maintain and enhance - $150 is peanuts compared to what the system does and how much it can make one. 

Open t-shirt forum doesn't even work 90% of the time. After two years are there any real installations that generating revenue.

Deconetwork and Inksoft are the players in th game Deco is just more flexible in what it can do and the appearence it can take. If $150 a month is too much than you do not need an on-line store. An on-line start is a revenue generator not an expense.


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## Smokestack

Riderz Ready said:


> Clearly you are not educated on Deconetwork.
> 
> Open t-shirt is a group of Popular Mechanics readers trying to glue something together for two years. The forum doesn't even work 90% of the time. After two years are there any real installations that generating revenue.
> 
> I notice 95% of the people posting rah rah Open Shirts do not have links to their business - just an interesting FYI.
> .



As I stated in my previous post, i don't know a thing bout deco. I said that.. and as far as your interesting FYI --->impressedscreenprinting.com

There's my link. 

I was just trying to help the dude out.


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## RobertG

Riderz Ready said:


> Always love guys who refuse to pay a monthly fee. Never understand a true business person worrying about what something cost versus how much it can make me. Software is incredibly expensive to maintain and enhance - $150 is peanuts compared to what the system does and how much it can make one.


I think its the privilege of living in this planet; as Deco is free to offer a payed service like it does, others are free to not make use of that offer.

Regards, Robert


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## Riderz Ready

Smokestack said:


> As I stated in my previous post, i don't know a thing bout deco. I said that.. and as far as your interesting FYI --->impressedscreenprinting.com
> 
> There's my link.
> 
> I was just trying to help the dude out.


The link shows a t-shirt designer that does not even work - thanks for proving my point. Probably another reason very few of the open system clones show their links.


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## extremestitch

Riderz Ready said:


> The link shows a t-shirt designer that does not even work - thanks for proving my point. Probably another reason very few of the open system clones show their links.


Not trying to rain on your rah rah parade but 50% of every deco link I have tried over the last 10 days has been dead or broken. Several members here in this forum at one time listed their deco-site between 2009-present that are now dead. The OP has valid points as so do you. You however are also justifying something you are paying for. We as potential clients are always taking everything in and trying to sift through the biases. I believe I will soon be a deco customer myself but having a terrible time finding unbiased reviews. Even Deco's youtube channel contains interviews with users that are no longer deco users. Why did those company's invest days and thousands of dollars transitioning to Deco and then leave? This is what I find the most frustrating. Why are they gone? Why are they no longer using Deco? Why has so many "tried" deco and decided it was not for them?

Below are some of the unforeseen limitations I have found, I hope there are no more to be discovered by me: 
1) only one dynamic product color available. No multiple user modified product color option. By this I mean the only way for a customer to change more than one color region on a PRODUCT is to have a static single color swatch pre-built in the color sequence he wants. A user can not take a swatch color and change a region of the product. Note I say product. Even on your site you use one color for trim and then a DESIGN mask to simulate a change of the product color in another region of the garment. Your customers can only select a single color product and then transition to design mode to dynamically simulate a change in another region of the product. This is simply a silly workaround for what already should be available. The "dynamic multi-color garment" Youtube video produced by deco shows you how to dynamically change multiple garment colors. The only problem is that this can only be used to pre-build multi color products. Once they are available as a product they are now just a single product with locked color options. Customers can not alter or customize the available colors even if I want to allow them to.

2nd, It everything really only 8 colors? I can not seem to find a native design that is happy on deco. Every vector or raster that I have tried has its multiple layers and colors reduced, multiplied and/or combined to fit the 8 color max selection swatches. This is very frustrating. I have tried everything previously demonstrated and can not get a 15 layer/color-change image to show me 15 separate unique colors. I have tried wilcom embroidery EMB files, Wilcom's exported ,cdr, eps, svg, png, bmp, jpg, wmf and others. All reduce and/or combine to 8 colors.

3rd) No multicolor embroidery fonts. Period!

4th) the inability to allow me to convert my proprietary embroidery fonts to anything and make them available to my customers. I can not even create a TTF that can be used in place of an embroidery font. 
5th) Still can not figure out if it will allow pre-formated envelopes (arc for example) to be used as a work around for use of proprietary lettering. If possible I could upload each letter as a single 4 color vector file, that a user could painstakingly place in an envelope in lue of typing the letters naturally. This is only a potential workaround because deco does not allowing TTF or multicolored embroidery (any) fonts to be uploaded by the store owner and made available to its customers. By only allowing readily available fonts in deco, there is nothing keeping anyone on the WWW from using my hard work, hitting print screen and walking into any local store only to have them go "sure I can do that for you, we got that art and fonts right here" I would rather them go...."well we would have to recreate those letters and digitize that font" blah, blah
@Riderz Ready,
I do appreciate the help you have given to myself and others looking for a solution to our problems. You still have to recognize that Deco is not a one size fits all. Deco is not the solution for everyone out there. It has its limitations.
Deco told me at the 2009 Long beach ISS show that uploading custom *.ESA wilcom fonts is just around the corner. Sign up today, every tool you need is just around the corner. I keep checking every 6 months or so, now 4 years later, still not an option. I am now actively looking at dropping some serious coin on a viable solution for my needs. Can I get away with something like Deco? Can I figure out all of the workarounds that are needed to service my clientèle? Will it then still be simple enough to make money? Or do I need a custom system to maximize potential revenue at a substantially higher setup cost? 

Understand that myself and others are here with valid question sifting though piles of biased posts looking for the viable ones that will help us maximize our profits. We are just doing our homework. Please forgive me if I offended anyone or their product, It is not my intention. Thanks for reading.


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## Mabuzi

I use and swear by RSKtech for several years now.

You dont pay *anything other* than the *1 subscription fee* and you can have multiple shops and affiliates and dont pay per transaction either.

Multiple shops that are live and running:
For sports team wear:Sports Teamwear Lab, Sydney Running Festival, J.P. Morgan Corporate Challenge in Sydney
For Custom t-shirts:Custom Online T-shirt Lab, custom t-shirts, Urgent custom t-shirts express, Mabuzi


It has embroidery module which we dont us yet.

As for Mac and flash, well Mac is pretty darn selfish locking other software out even if its widely used. Think Google Map debacle.
Tell your Mac customers to use Firefox browsers, it bypasses the Mac issue.

We had a login issue this morning and it took 10 minutes for the fix. Cant beat that.


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## Riderz Ready

To be honest - I did not understand much of your post. 

My view on Deconet comes from installing and using virtually every major on-line design tool on the market in being able to do what we need to do. My opinion comes not because I pay for a product but because I have used the other products.

It should be very clear why many users of any such system are no longer users. These systems, regardless of the brand, are not magic wands. Installing one will not all of a sudden generate thousands of dollars in sales. It is a tool that if used in ones overall sales/marketing strategy can generate significant increases in revenue. So many people think they can install an on-line design tool and people will come flocking to their site. Just isn't the case. 

The problem with all these systems is they have to be everything to everyone. For us I could careless about your embroidery issues. Others could careless what functions we use. For us the most important part of the system is not whether it does A, B or C as there typically work arounds but how can we use it in sales in marketing to make ourself different and unique to our customers and prospects alike.


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## simpex

hi I have inksoft it has done nothing for me. I promised myself Ill give it 6 mths. that will expire soon. to be honest I did not promote the site as I probably should. Did you not have them. if so your thoughts on both of them.


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## Riderz Ready

simpex said:


> hi I have inksoft it has done nothing for me. I promised myself Ill give it 6 mths. that will expire soon. to be honest I did not promote the site as I probably should. Did you not have them. if so your thoughts on both of them.


Again an on-line design feature on a web site is not going to drive a bunch of business unless you drive the business to the site. Just like all tools, if you do not know how to use it and do the correct sales/marketing it will have no effect on your business. Just like Ad-words. If used correctly it can be a huge plus. If you do not use it correctly it is a black hole.

Inksoft and Deco are both great systems. We switched to Deco becuase we wanted much more flexibility in how the site looked.


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## Smokestack

Riderz Ready said:


> The link shows a t-shirt designer that does not even work - thanks for proving my point. Probably another reason very few of the open system clones show their links.


I do have an OTS Fully functional designer here ---> 

Bergen County T-Shirt Designer

If you take a look at my original post in response to mattisme2003... My response wasn't about promoting any specific designer... My response was aimed at helping him prioritize what needs to be done first and in my opinion it should be to learn how to publish a basic web site and learn the basic ins and outs of maintaining the site and adding content before he needs to be worrying about which online t shirt designing system to implement. I think my suggestion is a solid starting point for him.


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## mattisme2003

Hey everyone: thanks for your input.

Just to clarify...I do know the basic ins and outs of building and maintaining a BASIC website with adding content etc. Part of my point in my post was how much I dislike building websites and that I could potentially spend way over $2k in time trying to figure out how to opperate one of the open source programs and get it to do what I want. Now, I know that even with options like deco or anything else, there is still content management and other routine website tasks that need to be handled regularly. This is fine. Now what really attracts me to Deco is the combined use of their business hub with their design studio. I have not seen this with any other option. I have to partially agree with a couple of the posters tho.. I have seen maybe one or two max opperable opentshirt websites. One of which was smokestack's. Part of my problem is the inability for a lot of people to view flash.

Thanks again for everyone's insight.

-Matt


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## Riderz Ready

Smokestack said:


> I do have an OTS Fully functional designer here --->
> 
> Bergen County T-Shirt Designer
> 
> If you take a look at my original post in response to mattisme2003... My response wasn't about promoting any specific designer... My response was aimed at helping him prioritize what needs to be done first and in my opinion it should be to learn how to publish a basic web site and learn the basic ins and outs of maintaining the site and adding content before he needs to be worrying about which online t shirt designing system to implement. I think my suggestion is a solid starting point for him.


When I click your link all I get is a purple page.

My point is simple - you can glue together bits and pieces of a puzzle to create a web site, designer, shopping cart, marketing tools, etc or you can purchase a proven solution like Deconetwork or Inksoft that is all of those things in one package. 

I think for most people who do this as a business there is little time to play Popular Mechanics and try to figure out how to get a bunch of pieces from different developers to work together. It is much easier to have one number to call

I can only emphasize that on-line design tools are just a part of what makes one successful - they are not magic wands.


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## Mabuzi

Time is money and time spent not making money is wasted in time, in business. We have played around with making our own site and t-shirt customizer and in the end it the ROI of time was not worth it.


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## Printavo

You may want to reconsider using one of these huge tools. We used to have an art guy basically full time who could communicate directly with the customers and build a relationship with them. 

If I were you I would focus on paying a web designer $800-$1000 to build a HTML/CSS site that is SEO optimized. This means that when people search for screen-printing in your area you'll pop up. We did that for our business and it drove a LOT of leads.


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## AdvancedArtist

Riderz Ready said:


> Open t-shirt is a group of Popular Mechanics readers trying to glue something together for two years. The forum doesn't even work 90% of the time. After two years are there any real installations that generating revenue.


I have been patiently waiting to reply to this.. We have come along way in a short time....

Got hundreds of installs and even converts from your side saying they are making more 50% more money with the open source.

We were never gluing anything together we were executing an open source development frame work with a plan. While we were being being attacked by hackers.

We just had a hacker on our site today from one of the popular non open source design tools. He got spanked and failed.

So before you make assumptions and judgements do some homework.


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## Riderz Ready

AdvancedArtist said:


> I have been patiently waiting to reply to this.. We have come along way in a short time....
> 
> Got hundreds of installs and even converts from your side saying they are making more 50% money with the open source.
> 
> We were never gluing anything together we executing and open source development frame work plan. While we were being being attacked by hackers.
> 
> We just had a hacker on our site today from one of the popular non open source design tools. He got spanked and failed.
> 
> So before you make assumptions and judgements do some homework.


Why did you have to wait so long?

I do not have a side as my opinion and comments are just that as I am not trying to "sell" things to anyone on this forum. You have been at this for how many years now - three? Not sure years equates to a short time but it is all relative. Amazing you continue to claim a conspiracy of paid solutions trying to hack your site - just amazing. Why not name names? It may be that evil foreign based company that is owned by evil investment firms Corel that is doing it. You know the company that is 100% against everything you preach unless it means money in your pockets.

Surely there is a market for anything that is "free" including Open Source T-shirt. May be a great solution for the single person shop that does not create enough revenue to justify something more professional.

As you are well aware number of installs means absolutely nothing. I went to look at some sites including one you just posted as an example and to be honest they are very amateurish in comparison. Surely it is still young in its conception and hopefully people will begin to understand how to code to look professional.

In the mean time you should get back to focusing your efforts to knocking me off the top page of Google as your last attempt failed miserably. 

Take your own advice and do some homework. The last failed attempt you tried to latch onto a bottom feeder BMX jersey company that does not even make jerseys - they contract what little work they do out to one of the real players.

In short I hope people do bring Open T-shirts to the level of the paid products - it benefits everyone. The more pressure solution providers feel the more they invest in their products. 

I just get a chuckle when a business owner threatens someone simply because they do not share the same views.


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## AdvancedArtist

Riderz Ready said:


> Why did you have to wait so long?
> 
> I do not have a side as my opinion and comments are just that as I am not trying to "sell" things to anyone on this forum. You have been at this for how many years now - three? Not sure years equates to a short time but it is all relative. Amazing you continue to claim a conspiracy of paid solutions trying to hack your site - just amazing. Why not name names? It may be that evil foreign based company that is owned by evil investment firms Corel that is doing it. You know the company that is 100% against everything you preach unless it means money in your pockets.
> 
> Surely there is a market for anything that is "free" including Open Source T-shirt. May be a great solution for the single person shop that does not create enough revenue to justify something more professional.
> 
> As you are well aware number of installs means absolutely nothing. I went to look at some sites including one you just posted as an example and to be honest they are very amateurish in comparison. Surely it is still young in its conception and hopefully people will begin to understand how to code to look professional.
> 
> In the mean time you should get back to focusing your efforts to knocking me off the top page of Google as your last attempt failed miserably.
> 
> Take your own advice and do some homework. The last failed attempt you tried to latch onto a bottom feeder BMX jersey company that does not even make jerseys - they contract what little work they do out to one of the real players.
> 
> In short I hope people do bring Open T-shirts to the level of the paid products - it benefits everyone. The more pressure solution providers feel the more they invest in their products.
> 
> I just get a chuckle when a business owner threatens someone simply because they do not share the same views.


Lets put the past in the past.. Honestly I knew at that time the day was coming when I could execute over 100 niche market sites in less than a few hours.. All key worded up and contented up like minions. Actually your niche is pretty weak and ripe for the picking.

And as for your comments about my SEO ability..

Google

Got some ranks in the works there depending on where you are.

We have the ability now.. We can generate sites in minutes. It was not a joke dude.

This technology is going to go places only a few of us can imagine.

And while you were railing on me and my work I was looking the future dead in the eyes.

So I waited to reply.


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## mgparrish

Smokestack said:


> As I stated in my previous post, i don't know a thing bout deco. I said that.. and as far as your interesting FYI --->impressedscreenprinting.com
> 
> There's my link.
> 
> I was just trying to help the dude out.


I just checked you site and the designer is working fine in IE 10 and the latest version of Firefox.


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## Riderz Ready

AdvancedArtist said:


> Lets put the past in the past.. Honestly I knew at that time the day was coming when I could execute over 100 niche market sites in less than a few hours.. All key worded up and contented up like minions. Actually your niche is pretty weak and ripe for the picking.
> 
> And as for your comments about my SEO ability..
> 
> Google
> 
> Got some ranks in the works there depending on where you are.
> 
> We have the ability now.. We can generate sites in minutes. It was not a joke dude.
> 
> This technology is going to go places only a few of us can imagine.
> 
> And while you were railing on me and my work I was looking the future dead in the eyes.
> 
> So I waited to reply.


"railing" is small potatoes compared to someone, especially a vendor, threatening ones company as you did mine. 

Only stated opinions - to think one can create a site, do a little SEO and compete with established companies, regardless of size, with Google is setting unrealistic expectations.

You should understand this first hand. What key Google words do I need to type to find your Open Tshirts site? I never see it appear on the top pages regardless of key words that are specific to the site.

You should understand this because you failed miserably in your promise to flood Google with competing sites forcing us off the top page. Added to that your promise of my niche is "ripe for the picking" yet you already tried and failed to get what you thought was a jersey manufacture to compete not even knowing they were simply a bottom feeder who did not even make jerseys. If it was so easy there would be a lot more people doing it.

As I stated I hope for nothing more than the market to explode with paid and freebie solutions as that is what drives development and makes all of our products. The difference is my vision is based on reality. You can provide all the great tools in the world regardless whether it is a paid app or a freebie, it doesn't matter when it comes to succeeding or failing. What hinders the growth of these applications is not technology it is simple fact that 99% of the people will have zero clue on how to market and sell. Just recently do you see some of the paid apps doing seminars, etc focusing not so much on the features and functions but on how to sell and market. Want to revolutionize this market? Teach people how to sell and market their products - Until then people will just keep creating random sites with no real revenue flowing through them. This is the way it has been for years.

Those that are successful and deploy an on-line design solution will help grow revenue. Those are not successful will fail regardless if they deploy such a tool or not. On-line designs tools will not make someone successful. They are just a tool to help those already successful gain additional revenue.

Again I hope you push the market to the brink - only makes all the other apps get better.


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## brenden

Hi extremestitch,

I'd be happy to talk you through some of the issues you are having.

1. You can actually configure DecoNetwork to have a product template like a jersey and recolor it. You can see a good example at TPF Teamwear Designer. I'd be happy to show you how to do this if you are interested. But, keep in mind we are not a product configurator which is what I call this. DecoNetwork is an online designer where you take a product and decorate. That said, as the example shows you can achieve this.

2. You can set the color limitation yourself. Perhaps your website is set to recolor bitmaps down to 8 colors for embroidery (I am assuming you use embroidery by your forum name). Browse to Manage Fulfillment > Settings > Embroidery > Configure Designer. Here you can set the "Reduce to" field.

3. Yes we don't have any multicolor fonts. I believe Wilcom has 2-3 multicolor fonts. We can certainly see what it would require for us to support that.

4. Embroidery fonts are not straight forward unfortunately otherwise we'd certainly would have made them available. By the nature of how the Wilcom embroidery engine works, font that are loaded into the Wilcom software can affect the Wilcom system. By that I mean a font with an issue could affect the engine therefore affect all users use of the embroidery aspect of DecoNetwork. Therefore to protect the network we have limited users from uploading their own custom fonts until a resolution for this can be identified. If you want to discuss this further and look at possibly getting your reviewed fonts available in your site shoot me a private message with your email address and I will reply back with some details.

5. I'd like see some examples of the templates you want to use. Could you email me some examples? Thanks!


Brenden


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## AdvancedArtist

Riderz Ready said:


> "railing" is small potatoes compared to someone, especially a vendor, threatening ones company as you did mine.
> 
> Only stated opinions - to think one can create a site, do a little SEO and compete with established companies, regardless of size, with Google is setting unrealistic expectations.
> 
> You should understand this first hand. What key Google words do I need to type to find your Open Tshirts site? I never see it appear on the top pages regardless of key words that are specific to the site.
> 
> You should understand this because you failed miserably in your promise to flood Google with competing sites forcing us off the top page. Added to that your promise of my niche is "ripe for the picking" yet you already tried and failed to get what you thought was a jersey manufacture to compete not even knowing they were simply a bottom feeder who did not even make jerseys. If it was so easy there would be a lot more people doing it.
> 
> As I stated I hope for nothing more than the market to explode with paid and freebie solutions as that is what drives development and makes all of our products. The difference is my vision is based on reality. You can provide all the great tools in the world regardless whether it is a paid app or a freebie, it doesn't matter when it comes to succeeding or failing. What hinders the growth of these applications is not technology it is simple fact that 99% of the people will have zero clue on how to market and sell. Just recently do you see some of the paid apps doing seminars, etc focusing not so much on the features and functions but on how to sell and market. Want to revolutionize this market? Teach people how to sell and market their products - Until then people will just keep creating random sites with no real revenue flowing through them. This is the way it has been for years.
> 
> Those that are successful and deploy an on-line design solution will help grow revenue. Those are not successful will fail regardless if they deploy such a tool or not. On-line designs tools will not make someone successful. They are just a tool to help those already successful gain additional revenue.
> 
> Again I hope you push the market to the brink - only makes all the other apps get better.


 Rider at times your posts have been somewhat on the personal side. I mean really a bunch of guys trying to glue things together. When I read that some months ago I just bit my tongue. Because I was dealing with hackers not from Deco or Inksoft but these guys on the other side of world just trying to kill the project because they saw this system as a threat. I even know which companies they were now.

So there I was with... hackers trying to kill the project and you posting that we are just some dudes with glue. You played right into the hackers hands and started doing the type of damage they were looking for. 

You could have simply stated something like.. I am not sure what is going it looks like they are struggling with the project. Which in fact, Iwas but only on the hacking side. Or you could have sent me email asked what was going on and I would have been glad to share the information with you. 

Concerning the SEO a few days ago we were ranking very well all over the place.. We just moved the .org to .com and with Google it will take a little time for that to matriculate. But the systems engineer recommended the move for security purposes so I agreed with that. So right now we have sandbox ranks again but that will end soon.

Concerning the training you are absolutely correct and I will soon deal with that just as I have dealt with so many other relevant topics via training. And that training will be just like the open source.

Concerning the the push.. the great part about that is that we can focus on the design tools and the companies like Magento, OpenCart and many others can focus on the eCommerce and we can just integrate.


----------



## Riderz Ready

AdvancedArtist said:


> Rider at times your posts have been some what on the personal side. I mean really a bunch of guys trying to glue things together. When I read that some month ago I just bit my tongue. Because I was dealing with hackers not from Deco or Inksoft but these guys on the other side of world just trying to kill the project because they saw this system as a threat. I even know which companies they were now.
> 
> So there I was... hackers trying to kill the project and you posting that we are just some dudes with glue. You played right into the hackers hands and started doing the type of damage they were looking for.
> 
> You could have simply stated something like.. I am not sure what is going it looks like they are struggling with the project. Which in fact I was but only on hacking side. Or you could have sent me email asked what was going on and would have been glad to share the information with you.
> 
> Concerning the SEO a few days ago we were ranking very well all over the place.. We just moved the .org to .com and with google it will take a little time for that to matriculate. But the systems engineer recommended the move for security purposes so I agreed with that. So right now we have sandbox ranks again but that will end soon.
> 
> Concerning the training you are absolutely correct and I will soon deal with that just as I have dealt with so many other relevant topics via training. And that training will be just like the open source.
> 
> Concerning the the push.. the great part about that is that we can focus on the design tools and the companies like Magento, OpenCart and many others can focus on the eCommerce and we can just integrate.


We can just leave where it sits - I can look past a lot of things but when someone threatens my company gloves come off - 

Best of luck to you


----------



## AdvancedArtist

Riderz Ready said:


> We can just leave where it sits - I can look past a lot of things but when someone threatens my company gloves come off -
> 
> Best of luck to you


Interesting eh.. that is what I felt like after some of your posts. So yes lets leave it all where it is. 

But I did do allot research relating to your market online and I do have insights pertaining to that. If you are interested in the information contact me in the spirit of being friends and I will glad to go over some of that with you privately.


----------



## Smokestack

Riderz Ready said:


> Those that are successful and deploy an on-line design solution will help grow revenue. Those are not successful will fail regardless if they deploy such a tool or not. On-line designs tools will not make someone successful. They are just a tool to help those already successful gain additional revenue.


 I'm gonna have to disagree with you a bit with the above quoted statement.. As the saying goes... " One shouldn't judge a book by it's cover " Though profound by it's intended meaning and message, It's just not what really happens in life.. Being honest with myself, I know i am definitely guilty of " judging a book by it's cover " I think it's just human nature and I think most people do occasionally judge books by their covers, from time to time. Having said that, since I have implemented the Open T-shirts Standalone version onto my web site, my business has tripled.. Is it because of Open T-shirts? I'm gonna say that the OTS Online Design System has played a roll in my new found success.. The designer on my site, coupled with my site showing up on page 1 within the top 3 or 4 spots on google, bing and yahoo search results for such terms as "nj screenprinting, or new jersey screen printing, or bergen county screen printing, or nj embroidery <---- (this one I bounce around with different standings a bit...) (and a few other search terms), has launched me to a completely new level and status. Now to tie this in with " judging a book by it's cover ".. It just makes my company look more professional, organized, thorough, and flat out on top of my game now that i have added the OTS open source designer as one of the tools in my arsenal... I think it immediately sends a message of professionalism and if those who find their way to any web site and happen to be a "web site snob" (as I am definitely guilty of being) look at a web site and immediately pass judgement and think to themselves " ah.. this site looks cheaply made or wow.. this site is very plain.. start thinking to themselves "Lemme go see if I can find a better site" We've all seen these types of sites that were just "thrown together" and we generally move on until we find a site that pleases us.

The success of a business is determined by many things.. and without going into the entire breakdown as to why some business fail.. Besides the main obvious reasons for business failure (the lack of business capital to keep the business afloat in the first couple of years ) I think next major hurdle of business' success is getting customers in your door. Marketing is one of the main remedies for that.. So... the OTS designer, being open source, gives the "little guy" a fighting chance. It's a huge tool to be able to offer and can and does directly help and contribute to the success of a business. If the OTS designer does nothing else at all but remove the added pressure and burden of another monthly bill to pay for " one of the online t-shirt designers " that has to be purchased for cool thousand bucks or more or be paid for monthly, then the peace of mind that comes with having the OTS open source tool is no money very well spent! Frankly speaking, as a business owner, it's just smart business and a flat out "no brainer" Why on earth would I purchase an online designer when I can get one for free?

Having ranted on about all that.. I'm no newbie to this business.. I'm coming up on my 25th year in the industry and started out all those years ago at the end of the dryer, stacking huge transfer prints being run by huge sakurai cylinder presses. i'm now entering my 4th year with my own shop as the sole owner and it has been no easy task.. (even with all the years of acquired knowledge that I have)... BUT last Thursday, I just wrote the first of 3 checks (the initial deposit has now been paid), to M&R for a brand new 12 station/10 color automatic Sportsman XE. It will be arriving in about 5 weeks to my shop... There is no doubt in my mind that the OTS online designer has played a roll in my new found success... It's not the main reason but It has contributed a huge amount and at the end of the day.. I can kick back and really say to myself.. "thank god I stumbled upon the OTS system" because If I weigh everything and all factors together.. I have had the OTS design system on my site for about a year now and I really don't think I would be in my current growth spurt without it.

All of the back and forth banter related to which online t shirt designer to use is and whatever.. it's all ridiculous... either utilize the open source designer or don't.. Who cares.. just get over it all and move on people.. choose whichever system you think suits you and prosper


----------



## AdvancedArtist

Smokestack said:


> I'm gonna have to disagree with you a bit with the above quoted statement.. As the saying goes... " One shouldn't judge a book by it's cover " Though profound by it's intended meaning and message, It's just not what really happens in life.. Being honest with myself, I know i am definitely guilty of " judging a book by it's cover " I think it's just human nature and I think most people do occasionally judge books by their covers, from time to time. Having said that, since I have implemented the Open T-shirts Standalone version onto my web site, my business has tripled.. Is it because of Open T-shirts? I'm gonna say that the OTS Online Design System has played a roll in my new found success.. The designer on my site, coupled with my site showing up on page 1 within the top 3 or 4 spots on google, bing and yahoo search results for such terms as "nj screenprinting, or new jersey screen printing, or bergen county screen printing, or nj embroidery <---- (this one I bounce around with different standings a bit...) (and a few other search terms), has launched me to a completely new level and status. Now to tie this in with " judging a book by it's cover ".. It just makes my company look more professional, organized, thorough, and flat out on top of my game now that i have added the OTS open source designer as one of the tools in my arsenal... I think it immediately sends a message of professionalism and if those who find their way to any web site and happen to be a "web site snob" (as I am definitely guilty of being) look at a web site and immediately pass judgement and think to themselves " ah.. this site looks cheaply made or wow.. this site is very plain.. start thinking to themselves "Lemme go see if I can find a better site" We've all seen these types of sites that were just "thrown together" and we generally move on until we find a site that pleases us.
> 
> The success of a business is determined by many things.. and without going into the entire breakdown as to why some business fail.. Besides the main obvious reasons for business failure (the lack of business capital to keep the business afloat in the first couple of years ) I think next major hurdle of business' success is getting customers in your door. Marketing is one of the main remedies for that.. So... the OTS designer, being open source, gives the "little guy" a fighting chance. It's a huge tool to be able to offer and can and does directly help and contribute to the success of a business. If the OTS designer does nothing else at all but remove the added pressure and burden of another monthly bill to pay for " one of the online t-shirt designers " that has to be purchased for cool thousand bucks or more or be paid for monthly, then the peace of mind that comes with having the OTS open source tool is no money very well spent! Frankly speaking, as a business owner, it's just smart business and a flat out "no brainer" Why on earth would I purchase an online designer when I can get one for free?
> 
> Having ranted on about all that.. I'm no newbie to this business.. I'm coming up on my 25th year in the industry and started out all those years ago at the end of the dryer, stacking huge transfer prints being run by huge sakurai cylinder presses. i'm now entering my 4th year with my own shop as the sole owner and it has been no easy task.. (even with all the years of acquired knowledge that I have)... BUT last Thursday, I just wrote the first of 3 checks (the initial deposit has now been paid), to M&R for a brand new 12 station/10 color automatic Sportsman XE. It will be arriving in about 5 weeks to my shop... There is no doubt in my mind that the OTS online designer has played a roll in my new found success... It's not the main reason but It has contributed a huge amount and at the end of the day.. I can kick back and really say to myself.. "thank god I stumbled upon the OTS system" because If I weigh everything and all factors together.. I have had the OTS design system on my site for about a year now and I really don't think I would be in my current growth spurt without it.
> 
> All of the back and forth banter related to which online t shirt designer to use is and whatever.. it's all ridiculous... either utilize the open source designer or don't.. Who cares.. just get over it all and move on people.. choose whichever system you think suits you and prosper


You are so correct it is the 5% that you do that others do not in all the details that makes the difference. The design tools are just tools.... but the mix of going from the marketing to the art, to the separations, to the film, to screens to the press. There is allot of 5% better in that mix of things to do. It is all about the edge in every step.


----------



## brenden

Smokestack said:


> Why on earth would I purchase an online designer when I can get one for free?


Well that's not entirely true  Let's be realistic about both solutions. The Open designer is great for someone who has the capabilities to configure and set up such a tool and play around with some code. If you are not that sort of person you need someone to do it which is a cost. Besides, a website is not just about a designer. And a business is not just about a website with a designer. But the most important point of all which Tom and I have tried to stress several times in the past is that they are in every way completely *DIFFERENT* solutions. Capitalize, bold, italicize, underline and paint that in fluro colors 

They are very, VERY different solutions for VERY different people and needs.

OpenTshirt is the tool for someone who wants to custom code their own site and is probably just focused on the designer as their need.

DecoNetwork is a platform for your business which includes the website, online designer, quote order and invoice software, production management tools, APIs, Product catalogs with ready-to-go product data, retail kiosk... I could go on. Very different for very different needs. To be fair to Tom's solution you can't compare it to DecoNetwork because that's not what he invented. And vice versa for DecoNetwork to OpenTshirt.

I think the debate of which solution is better is not a debate at all. It is irrelevant. Like your car, pick the one you want for your needs. If you go bush get the 4x4. If you're a city slicker go the sedan.


----------



## AdvancedArtist

Yes these are very different tools. From the back end functionality to free open source, to extensions and the end user design studio interfaces. 

And actually I think the main point to consider is something I have been looking at and doing considerable research on. 

What is the end users response to your site and/or design system? What would a client or first time shopper on your site think and feel about the site and shopping experience? 

Beyond SEO, the open source, features and functions at the end of the day it is.. How does the shopper feel and can they design and buy. Because that is where the online market seems to be going relating to allot of products.

For example this research paper from 2008 on customized shopping.

Kamis, Stern and Ladik (2008) | Arnold Kamis - Academia.edu

A bit complex and wordy but if you take the time to read it will give you some insights.

One thing I would like to be very clear about. You do *NOT* need to be a programmer to use OpenTshirts or open source. I am not a programmer and all my web sites are open source. But I do hire programers to make customizations to my sites and systems.


----------



## mgparrish

AdvancedArtist said:


> Yes these are very different tools. From the back end functionality to free open source, to extensions and the end user design studio interfaces.
> 
> And actually I think the main point to consider is something I have been looking at and considerable doing research on.
> 
> What is the end users response to your site and/or design system? What would a client or first time shopper on your site think and feel about the site and shopping experience?
> 
> Beyond SEO, the open source, features and functions at the end of the day it is.. How does the shopper feel and can they design and buy. Because that is where the online market seems to be going relating to allot of products.
> 
> For example this research paper from 2008 on customized shopping.
> 
> Kamis, Stern and Ladik (2008) | Arnold Kamis - Academia.edu
> 
> A bit complex and wordy but if you take the time to read it will give you some insights.
> 
> *One thing I would like to be very clear about. You do NOT need to be a programmer to use OpenTshirts or open source.* I am not a programmer and all my web sites are open source. But I do hire programers to make customizations to my sites and systems.


Tom, I believe you forgot to mention about the "1 click" install option as well ...


----------



## Riderz Ready

AdvancedArtist said:


> Yes these are very different tools. From the back end functionality to free open source, to extensions and the end user design studio interfaces.
> 
> And actually I think the main point to consider is something I have been looking at and doing considerable research on.
> 
> What is the end users response to your site and/or design system? What would a client or first time shopper on your site think and feel about the site and shopping experience?
> 
> Beyond SEO, the open source, features and functions at the end of the day it is.. How does the shopper feel and can they design and buy. Because that is where the online market seems to be going relating to allot of products.
> 
> For example this research paper from 2008 on customized shopping.
> 
> Kamis, Stern and Ladik (2008) | Arnold Kamis - Academia.edu
> 
> A bit complex and wordy but if you take the time to read it will give you some insights.
> 
> One thing I would like to be very clear about. You do *NOT* need to be a programmer to use OpenTshirts or open source. I am not a programmer and all my web sites are open source. But I do hire programers to make customizations to my sites and systems.


This market has been around a long time - far from new. Our prospective comes from years of searching, buying, installing and implementing multiple solutions in search of one that suits our specific need. We have purchased, installed and implemented OSS, RSK, PikiWare (now Deco), Inksoft and Deconetwork. They all have common ground and all have unique features. 

Several things we have learned and observed over 5 years of working with such systems. 

1. The real money is in the ability to be fulfillment center for others. This is what helps the small guy who may not have the funds to invest the capital to dye sublimate, screen print, embroider. This is where you could truly grow your business specifically because of an on-line design tool. 

2. The vast majority of on-line design sites, regardless of the software solution provider, look the same which is far from a compliment. Most look like something someone with Wix could create in an hour. 

3. The majority come with the same cheesy clipart which 95% of the images are useless.

4. Majority of people, unlike most of us, have zero design experience and will find it difficult to create a professional product.

5. All talk about easy install. "One click install", etc. is pointless. "Install" means nothing more than it is loaded. Few talk about what it takes to get a professional looking site live and loaded with products. It is not simple regardless of the tool and takes considerable time.

6. All of them have SEO tools built in.

Being we have implemented virtually all of the main players over time we get asked all the time why did we need to change so much. For us we wanted a turnkey solution as this business is my main source of revenue. We do not look at the cost of things as much as we do the ROI. If someone came up with a perfect solution down the road we would not worry about whether it was free or cost $1,000 a month we would only look at the ROI of the solution.

The two key factors for us in this journey were - (1) affiliate capabilities and (2) a turnkey website that includes an on-line design tool. Although this seems simple it truly was not. Deco was the only company we found that could create a self contained, turnkey solution that met these needs. If anyone sees our site it is just that - a web site first and a on-line design system second yet the entire site is a Deco site.

From looking at other on-line design sites I would guess one in ten look professional and unique.


----------



## AdvancedArtist

First Mark,

Thanks for the great post you bring up several very important topics and obviously have solid experience relating to this.

I agree completely that ROI is the bottom line. But there are significant limitations to ROI that are removed in open source. In proprietary systems you are not able to invest beyond what your providers are willing to do for your unique needs. So you are actually limited on what you can do relating to ROI.

Lets say you want to build out a completely custom design studio interface developed completely around your unique requirements and the BMX Jerseys market. Lets say you have some really great ideas because you did some analysis with clients in you shop using the studio. And based on that you want to do something completely different because you perceive you can meet the clients needs better with some customization of your design studio.

Open source lets you do what ever you want to in the ROI cycle. With proprietary you are locked into only what the developer is willing to do with the system. There in, your first step in the ROI cycle is also locked in or limited. Because you cannot really invest based on your unique needs. You are limited to what the developer is willing to do for you or the client base as a whole.



Riderz Ready said:


> 1. The real money is in the ability to be fulfillment center for others. This is what helps the small guy who may not have the funds to invest the capital to dye sublimate, screen print, embroider. This is where you could truly grow your business specifically because of an on-line design tool.


This is a very very important point and one of the reasons we integrated OT into Opencart. Multi Store functionality that is very flexible.

Multi-Store



Riderz Ready said:


> 2. The vast majority of on-line design sites, regardless of the software solution provider, look the same which is far from a compliment. Most look like something someone with Wix could create in an hour.


Here again the flexibility of open source and available themes and design options. Which you can customize to your desire if you have the resources.

OpenCart | ThemeForest



Riderz Ready said:


> 3. The majority come with the same cheesy clipart which 95% of the images are useless.


Agreed what I find interesting is that we see more uploading of images and than we do designing actually we so more a mix upload an image and add text. Actually quality art is hard to develop both costly and time consuming. 



Riderz Ready said:


> 4. Majority of people, unlike most of us, have zero design experience and will find it difficult to create a professional product.


That is the job of the design studio it must be easy to use. Based on my resent research there are indications that end users enjoy such functionality. Perhaps not all but some for sure.



Riderz Ready said:


> 5. All talk about easy install. "One click install", etc. is pointless. "Install" means nothing more than it is loaded. Few talk about what it takes to get a professional looking site live and loaded with products. It is not simple regardless of the tool and takes considerable time.


Easy install or loading is just one step in the process. If you need to load custom products that is going to require work. 

But you can always start with a limited offering and build from their.

But anyway you cut it setting up a product catalog is going to take some work especially with niche market products. We have a basic library of about 100 products in the is installable. 



Riderz Ready said:


> 6. All of them have SEO tools built in.


Yes that is a given these days...

I am not bashing DECO or proprietary systems. Even as Brenden said and I agree. DECO and Opentshirts are two very different things. Hopefully I have cleared some of that up with this post.


----------



## mgparrish

Riderz Ready said:


> 5. All talk about easy install. "One click install", etc. is pointless. "Install" means nothing more than it is loaded. Few talk about what it takes to get a professional looking site live and loaded with products. It is not simple regardless of the tool and takes considerable time.


You are making circular arguments, first you insist ...

"I think for most people who do this as a business there is little time to play Popular Mechanics and try to figure out how to get a bunch of pieces from different developers to work together. It is much easier to have one number to call."

The entire point of having a 1 click install is so that you don't have to be a "Popular Mechanic type" to get one of these installed. Someone else has already figured out how to get the pieces to work together.

1 click install is a huge feature for those that can't setup a database and look up all the database parameters for your host, then either FTP a bunch of files or upload and gunzip a bunch of files ... then go in and maybe have to setup directory and/or file permissions.

Are you kidding me?

First you say there is no time to ""play Popular Mechanics"" and now it's "pointless this doesn't matter".

Either ease of implementing is important or it is not, but you should pick one side of the argument, not both.


----------



## Riderz Ready

mgparrish said:


> You are making circular arguments, first you insist ...
> 
> "I think for most people who do this as a business there is little time to play Popular Mechanics and try to figure out how to get a bunch of pieces from different developers to work together. It is much easier to have one number to call."
> 
> The entire point of having a 1 click install is so that you don't have to be a "Popular Mechanic type" to get one of these installed. Someone else has already figured out how to get the pieces to work together.
> 
> 1 click install is a huge feature for those that can't setup a database and look up all the database parameters for your host, then either FTP a bunch of files or upload and gunzip a bunch of files ... then go in and maybe have to setup directory and/or file permissions.
> 
> Are you kidding me?
> 
> First you say there is no time to ""play Popular Mechanics"" and now it's "pointless this doesn't matter".
> 
> Either ease of implementing is important or it is not, but you should pick one side of the argument, not both.


You seem confused so I will make this simple. Being in sales and marketing my entire life with 20+ years of it in application software end users tend to interchange the words install and implementation. yet they are two totally different things. An auto install is a given. Not sure last time I ever saw an application not have an install. To point out it as a feature is silly. 

Even in your post you flip from interchanging install with implementation. In the software community the two are not even close to the same thing.


----------



## Riderz Ready

AdvancedArtist said:


> First Mark,
> 
> Thanks for the great post you bring up several very important topics and obviously have solid experience relating to this.
> 
> I agree completely that ROI is the bottom line. But there are significant limitations to ROI that are removed in open source. In proprietary systems you are not able to invest beyond what your providers are willing to do for your unique needs. So you are actually limited on what you can do relating to ROI.
> 
> Lets say you want to build out a completely custom design studio interface developed completely around your unique requirements and the BMX Jerseys market. Lets say you have some really great ideas because you did some analysis with clients in you shop using the studio. And based on that you want to do something completely different because you perceive you can meet the clients needs better with some customization of your design studio.
> 
> Open source lets you do what ever you want to in the ROI cycle. With proprietary you are locked into only what the developer is willing to do with the system. There in, your first step in the ROI cycle is also locked in or limited. Because you cannot really invest based on your unique needs. You are limited to what the developer is willing to do for you or the client base as a whole.
> 
> 
> 
> This is a very very important point and one of the reasons we integrated OT into Opencart. Multi Store functionality that is very flexible.
> 
> Multi-Store
> 
> 
> 
> Here again the flexibility of open source and available themes and design options. Which you can customize to your desire if you have the resources.
> 
> OpenCart | ThemeForest
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed what I find interesting is that we see more uploading of images and than we do designing actually we so more a mix upload an image and add text. Actually quality art is hard to develop both costly and time consuming.
> 
> 
> 
> That is the job of the design studio it must be easy to use. Based on my resent research there are indications that end users enjoy such functionality. Perhaps not all but some for sure.
> 
> 
> 
> Easy install or loading is just one step in the process. If you need to load custom products that is going to require work.
> 
> But you can always start with a limited offering and build from their.
> 
> But anyway you cut it setting up a product catalog is going to take some work especially with niche market products. We have a basic library of about 100 products in the is installable.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes that is a given these days...
> 
> I am not bashing DECO or proprietary systems. Even as Brenden said and I agree. DECO and Opentshirts are two very different things. Hopefully I have cleared some of that up with this post.


Your passion is appreciated as without such it is hard to be successful. We just disagree on open source and proprietary software. Personally I think you embellish the difference between the two which in this case is not accurate.

System such as Deco are not closed to customers and left at the mercy of a developer. Quite the opposite. We have had several custom projects done. Surely the same could not be said for off the shelf applications like Word, Excel, etc. but with most vertical market software they are in fact customizable. Deco as with Open TShirts can be manipulated through html/css and beyond that as with Open TShirt people would need to have a developer do such. Personally on a business solution I prefer the only people touching the code to be the people who write the code. I can see how others may want a friend or ??? to do the coding. With both system the performance of the solution is only restricted by the time and money one has to throw at it. I am sure in time someone will build it out to a more robust looking website but I also believe those will be far and few between as it is common sense to understand 90%+ that are implementing the system are doing so because it is free. These same folks typically are not going to throw significant dollars at it to customize to their specific needs. I look forward to the solution maturing.

I attached a file that has our Deco site beside Open Tshirt site that you posted as an example of something someone did that was unique. I would guess that most looking at the two would pick the Open Tshirt site as the generic template site. Looks like the 1000+ sites of similar function. My only purpose of posting the pic is to point out a solution does not have to be open source to give users a professional, custom look.

I hope all the competitors have a knock down brawl of coding as the real winners in all of this is we the end users.


----------



## mgparrish

Riderz Ready said:


> You seem confused so I will make this simple. Being in sales and marketing my entire life with 20+ years of it in application software end users tend to interchange the words install and implementation. yet they are two totally different things. An auto install is a given. Not sure last time I ever saw an application not have an install. To point out it as a feature is silly.
> 
> Even in your post you flip from interchanging install with implementation. In the software community the two are not even close to the same thing.


Time is time, save time installing or save time implementing or both. The same guy that doesn't have time to fool around with "implementation" has time to fool around with "installing"?

I believe Tom addressed the implementation topic already together. 

But you state that ease of install is not important. It's very important if you don't know how to manual install, it may not be usable to someone otherwise, or then you have to pay a person with tech skills to do it for you.


----------



## Riderz Ready

mgparrish said:


> Time is time, save time installing or save time implementing or both. The same guy that doesn't have time to fool around with "implementation" has time to fool around with "installing"?
> 
> I believe Tom addressed the implementation topic already together.
> 
> But you state that ease of install is not important. It's very important if you don't know how to manual install, it may not be usable to someone otherwise, or then you have to pay a person with tech skills to do it for you.


You are missing the point - you seem to want to continue to make "install" a feature. I simply say that is a given not a feature. Kind of like boasting the pants came with a zipper. 

Here this is just for you - - wow Open T-shirts has an install. That is incredible. I have never seen a piece of software that auto installs.

The last thing Tom needs is you putting words into his mouth. 

Sorry to get off track Tom - this guy is my forum stalker.


----------



## AdvancedArtist

Riderz Ready said:


> Your passion is appreciated as without such it is hard to be successful. We just disagree on open source and proprietary software. Personally I think you embellish the difference between the two which in this case is not accurate.
> 
> System such as Deco are not closed to customers and left at the mercy of a developer. Quite the opposite. We have had several custom projects done. Surely the same could not be said for off the shelf applications like Word, Excel, etc. but with most vertical market software they are in fact customizable. Deco as with Open TShirts can be manipulated through html/css and beyond that as with Open TShirt people would need to have a developer do such. Personally on a business solution I prefer the only people touching the code to be the people who write the code. I can see how others may want a friend or ??? to do the coding. With both system the performance of the solution is only restricted by the time and money one has to throw at it.
> 
> I attached a file that has our Deco site beside Open Tshirt site that you posted as an example of something someone did that was unique. I would guess that most looking at the two would pick the Open Tshirt site as the generic template site. Looks like the 1000+ sites of similar function. My only purpose of posting the pic is to point out a solution does not have to be open source to give users a professional, custom look.
> 
> I hope all the competitors have a knock down brawl of coding as the real winners in all of this is we the end users.


Graphics and layouts are cool but those are easily changed in any system with basic CMS functionality. I was referring to the design studio functionality. For example when I was evaluating your niche which I have looked at every aspect of your business inside and out. I was talking with cut and sow and sublimation fulfillment providers.

I envisioned a very unique product customization design studio that encompassed the cut and sow along with the graphic design process. Pretty deep but made really simple and fully custom for the BMX jersey products.

ROI I can take the open source and make that very design studio. If I want too...


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## mgparrish

Riderz Ready said:


> You are missing the point - you seem to want to continue to make "install" a feature. I simply say that is a given not a feature. Kind of like boasting the pants came with a zipper.
> 
> Here this is just for you - - wow Open T-shirts has an install. That is incredible. I have never seen a piece of software that auto installs.
> 
> The last thing Tom needs is you putting words into his mouth.
> 
> Sorry to get off track Tom - this guy is my forum stalker.


The OP listed PROS and CONS of both systems. Without an auto install that would be a CON.

Brenden mentioned "OpenTshirt is the tool for someone who wants to custom code their own site ..."

Not only do you not have to be a programmer to install or implement this, you don't need to be a webmaster either or "play Popular Mechanics".

1 click install is huge, whether you decide to call it a feature or not. Parse the term "install" and "Features" however you wish.


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## mgparrish

Riderz Ready said:


> Deco as with Open TShirts can be manipulated through html/css and beyond that as with Open TShirt people would need to have a developer do such.


I really don't think you understand most CMS. 

"Manipulating" I would assume you mean adding features beyond the "out of the box" functionality.

Who needs a developer to do that? 

There are so many plugins, extensions, and modules out there rarely would you need a developer. Some are free some are pay. Some of the best top notch programmers out make a good living at this. Open Cart, Joomla, WP you name it.

You open up your admin panel, install it _easily_, config it as necessary, good to go man. No friends to do the coding.

I have a Joomla site on steroids and didn't need any code development to extend it, except for something I coded on my own on the backend. Open Cart has 9118 such extensions, no coder friends needed.


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## Riderz Ready

mgparrish said:


> I really don't think you understand most CMS.
> 
> "Manipulating" I would assume you mean adding features beyond the "out of the box" functionality.
> 
> Who needs a developer to do that?
> 
> There are so many plugins, extensions, and modules out there rarely would you need a developer. Some are free some are pay. Some of the best top notch programmers out make a good living at this. Open Cart, Joomla, WP you name it.
> 
> You open up your admin panel, install it _easily_, config it as necessary, good to go man. No friends to do the coding.
> 
> I have a Joomla site on steroids and didn't need any code development to extend it, except for something I coded on my own on the backend. Open Cart has 9118 such extensions, no coder friends needed.


Sounds great - can you post a link to your site so we can all get ideas?


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## mgparrish

Riderz Ready said:


> Sounds great - can you post a link to your site so we can all get ideas?


Link is in your PM box. I don't want to self promote here, a competitor to this site wants it.

The site I have 3 companies that want to buy it outright. Whoever gets it then they load up their own content, most likely it will not end up so broad in categories. 

I'm not giving you a log-in though. 

The only thing can't see without a log-in is the chat feature.


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## Smokestack

Riderz Ready said:


> Your passion is appreciated as without such it is hard to be successful. We just disagree on open source and proprietary software. Personally I think you embellish the difference between the two which in this case is not accurate.
> 
> System such as Deco are not closed to customers and left at the mercy of a developer. Quite the opposite. We have had several custom projects done. Surely the same could not be said for off the shelf applications like Word, Excel, etc. but with most vertical market software they are in fact customizable. Deco as with Open TShirts can be manipulated through html/css and beyond that as with Open TShirt people would need to have a developer do such. Personally on a business solution I prefer the only people touching the code to be the people who write the code. I can see how others may want a friend or ??? to do the coding. With both system the performance of the solution is only restricted by the time and money one has to throw at it. I am sure in time someone will build it out to a more robust looking website but I also believe those will be far and few between as it is common sense to understand 90%+ that are implementing the system are doing so because it is free. These same folks typically are not going to throw significant dollars at it to customize to their specific needs. I look forward to the solution maturing.
> 
> I attached a file that has our Deco site beside Open Tshirt site that you posted as an example of something someone did that was unique. I would guess that most looking at the two would pick the Open Tshirt site as the generic template site. Looks like the 1000+ sites of similar function. My only purpose of posting the pic is to point out a solution does not have to be open source to give users a professional, custom look.
> 
> I hope all the competitors have a knock down brawl of coding as the real winners in all of this is we the end users.


I think some key factors are being over looked here...

1) OTS gives the small guy, the guy first starting out, a fighting chance.. The people I am talking about are typically a) The kid fresh out of high school who took screen printing in shop class and loves it with a passion.. He is working out of mom's basement and trying to save money for his own location.. It's bad enough that, being in his mom's basement printing, the obstacles of not being able to have customers show up at the house.. He would never get orders that way.. At least if his web site kicks arss, he can appear as an established entity. OTS gives that kid a fighting chance!!

2) OTS also offers a stand alone version of the designer (which is what I prefer). This is perfect for the company which already has an existing site and just wants to add the OTS designer and continue on without missing a beat.

I originally had created a site for my company in iweb and after several months, i was completely off the charts and no where to be found in any searches on any search engine.. I knew nothing about coding or html or stylesheets or any of that.. As a business owner, and realizing that web presence is only gonna get more and more important in the future.. teamed with the philosophy that every small business owner should be able to do each and every one of it's business's functions.. I rolled up my sleeves and opened up Dreamweaver and "got to it" I was clueless at first and there were many days and weeks I struggled...BUT..I'm the owner!! I gotta figure this out!! I started with a blank page and then stumbled upon jquery... Slowly but surely, 1 html error plagued page at a time, my site started to form.. I wasn't a coder or developer and still am neither..Then A t shirt designer on my site was next.. The research began.. I did stumble upon Deco and thought to myself.. no way.. gonna keep searching.. Found OTS and opted to integrate it using an iframe.. All the while, how to optimize and be seo friendly, started sinking in.. The road was so long and difficult and at the same time, i had just gotten my first embroidery machine along with the digitizing software ( which I had to learn at the exact same time ) while running my business with it's 5 employees and all. The point of all of that being, not only did I have a completely customized site with OTS as well ( which is completely theme-able using jquery ) I learned so much valuable info and now am that much more ahead of the game. I'm still no developer and didn't need to be one to use OTS. 

Frankly, this next statement is in response to the pictures you posted... I will put my site nose to nose with any other site with a t shirt designer for comparison and would be more than confidant that the majority questioned would prefer my site.. (Even with the error ridden html and misspellings or whatever other flaws my site has) DUDE!!! It makes you look pompous posting comparison pictures like that!! Think of the person who's site that is that you decided to post comparing them to your site.. Think that made them feel good?

3) Customization!! Between the OTS Open Cart module and the standalone version... colors, themes, products, clipart, templates, fonts... Are completely customizable with the ability to build the system in whatever way one chooses to


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## Riderz Ready

Smokestack said:


> Franky, this next statement is in response to the pictures you posted... I will put my site nose to nose with any other site with a t shirt designer for comparison and would be more than confidant that the majority questioned would prefer my site.. (Even with the error ridden html and misspellings or whatever other flaws my site has) DUDE!!! It makes you look pompous posting comparison pictures like that!! Think of the person who's site that is that you decided to post comparing them to your site.. Think that made them feel good?


Your missing the point. The comparison, as stated, was to demonstrate a proprietary software can be modified and customized just like an open system software tool such as Open Tshirt. The vast majority of proprietary vertical market software can be modified and customized as well. It was simply to point out for those not schooled in software that customization/personalization is not unique to open system software.

You are also missing the point about our site in general. There are probably 100,000 + sites that would blow our site away. Yours may be one of them. The point was our entire site from top to bottom is all Deconetwork. We tried route of having a web site and a design studio separate using iFrame and Inksoft. Did not work for the way we work. 

We simply disagree what an on-line design studio will or will not do for a business regardless if it is a high school kid in moms basement or an adult running a shop. From 5 years dealing with on-line systems it is my conclusion that in 95% of the cases an on-line design studio will not be a deciding factor in ones success or failure. That holds the same for Deco, Inksoft, Open Tshirt, etc.

What really benefits your example of a high school kid in his moms basement is a true fulfillment/affiliate system where the kid does not even have to have a single piece of equipment and concentrates instead on sales, marketing and branding is company. His site is connected on the backend to the fulfillment center so when he gets an order the fulfillment center receives it as well and processes. That is how your truly help the "small" guy starting out.


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## AdvancedArtist

DECO lets you manage the appearance of your site and that is great.. You can do that with OT also and with options, themes and templates from many designer and developers.

*BUT* DECO does not let you edit this.. It is called source code OT is open you can edit this and or take this and do anything you want to with it.... Yes there is a BIG difference.

package view
{

import appFacade.ApplicationConstants;

import events.AlignEvent;
import events.ArrangeEvent;

import flash.events.Event;

import model.design.CompositionProxy;
import model.elements.DesignElementProxy;
import model.products.vo.RegionVO;

import org.puremvc.as3.interfaces.IMediator;
import org.puremvc.as3.interfaces.INotification;
import org.puremvc.as3.patterns.mediator.Mediator;
import org.puremvc.as3.utilities.undo.model.enum.UndoableCommandTypeEnum;

import view.components.designElement.DesignElementProperties;


public class DesignElementPropertiesMediator extends Mediator implements IMediator 
{ 
public static const NAME:String = 'DesignElementPropertiesMediator';

protected var propertiesViewesignElementProperties;
private var _elementuid:String;
private var designArea:RegionVO

public function DesignElementPropertiesMediator(viewComponent:Object ) 
{ 
super( NAME, viewComponent );
}
override public function onRegister():void 
{ 
propertiesView = new DesignElementProperties();
propertiesView.visible = false;
propertiesView.addEventListener(ArrangeEvent.BRING_BACKWARD, handleBringBackward);
propertiesView.addEventListener(ArrangeEvent.BRING_FORWARD, handleBringForward);
propertiesView.addEventListener(ArrangeEvent.BRING_TO_TOP, handleBringToTop);
propertiesView.addEventListener(ArrangeEvent.BRING_TO_BOTTOM, handleBringToBottom);
propertiesView.addEventListener(DesignElementProperties.LOCK, handleLock);
propertiesView.addEventListener(DesignElementProperties.UNLOCK, handleUnlock);
propertiesView.addEventListener(DesignElementProperties.UNLOCK_PROPORTIONS, handleUnlockProportions);
propertiesView.addEventListener(DesignElementProperties.LOCK_PROPORTIONS, handleLockProportions);
propertiesView.addEventListener(DesignElementProperties.RESET_PROPORTIONS, handleResetProportions);
propertiesView.addEventListener(AlignEvent.ALIGN_TO_BOTTOM, handleAlignToBottom);
propertiesView.addEventListener(AlignEvent.ALIGN_TO_TOP, handleAlignToTop);
propertiesView.addEventListener(AlignEvent.ALIGN_TO_RIGHT, handleAlignToRight);
propertiesView.addEventListener(AlignEvent.ALIGN_TO_LEFT, handleAlignToLeft);
propertiesView.addEventListener(AlignEvent.ALIGN_TO_CENTER_H, handleAlignToCenterH);
propertiesView.addEventListener(AlignEvent.ALIGN_TO_CENTER_V, handleAlignToCenterV);
propertiesView.addEventListener(DesignElementProperties.SELECT_ALL, handleSelectAll);
propertiesView.addEventListener(DesignElementProperties.FIT_TO_AREA, handleFit);


----------



## selzler

extremestitch said:


> Not trying to rain on your rah rah parade but 50% of every deco link I have tried over the last 10 days has been dead or broken. Several members here in this forum at one time listed their deco-site between 2009-present that are now dead. The OP has valid points as so do you. You however are also justifying something you are paying for. We as potential clients are always taking everything in and trying to sift through the biases. I believe I will soon be a deco customer myself but having a terrible time finding unbiased reviews. Even Deco's youtube channel contains interviews with users that are no longer deco users. Why did those company's invest days and thousands of dollars transitioning to Deco and then leave? This is what I find the most frustrating. Why are they gone? Why are they no longer using Deco? Why has so many "tried" deco and decided it was not for them?
> 
> Below are some of the unforeseen limitations I have found, I hope there are no more to be discovered by me:
> 1) only one dynamic product color available. No multiple user modified product color option. By this I mean the only way for a customer to change more than one color region on a PRODUCT is to have a static single color swatch pre-built in the color sequence he wants. A user can not take a swatch color and change a region of the product. Note I say product. Even on your site you use one color for trim and then a DESIGN mask to simulate a change of the product color in another region of the garment. Your customers can only select a single color product and then transition to design mode to dynamically simulate a change in another region of the product. This is simply a silly workaround for what already should be available. The "dynamic multi-color garment" Youtube video produced by deco shows you how to dynamically change multiple garment colors. The only problem is that this can only be used to pre-build multi color products. Once they are available as a product they are now just a single product with locked color options. Customers can not alter or customize the available colors even if I want to allow them to.
> 
> 2nd, It everything really only 8 colors? I can not seem to find a native design that is happy on deco. Every vector or raster that I have tried has its multiple layers and colors reduced, multiplied and/or combined to fit the 8 color max selection swatches. This is very frustrating. I have tried everything previously demonstrated and can not get a 15 layer/color-change image to show me 15 separate unique colors. I have tried wilcom embroidery EMB files, Wilcom's exported ,cdr, eps, svg, png, bmp, jpg, wmf and others. All reduce and/or combine to 8 colors.
> 
> 3rd) No multicolor embroidery fonts. Period!
> 
> 4th) the inability to allow me to convert my proprietary embroidery fonts to anything and make them available to my customers. I can not even create a TTF that can be used in place of an embroidery font.
> 5th) Still can not figure out if it will allow pre-formated envelopes (arc for example) to be used as a work around for use of proprietary lettering. If possible I could upload each letter as a single 4 color vector file, that a user could painstakingly place in an envelope in lue of typing the letters naturally. This is only a potential workaround because deco does not allowing TTF or multicolored embroidery (any) fonts to be uploaded by the store owner and made available to its customers. By only allowing readily available fonts in deco, there is nothing keeping anyone on the WWW from using my hard work, hitting print screen and walking into any local store only to have them go "sure I can do that for you, we got that art and fonts right here" I would rather them go...."well we would have to recreate those letters and digitize that font" blah, blah
> @Riderz Ready,
> I do appreciate the help you have given to myself and others looking for a solution to our problems. You still have to recognize that Deco is not a one size fits all. Deco is not the solution for everyone out there. It has its limitations.
> Deco told me at the 2009 Long beach ISS show that uploading custom *.ESA wilcom fonts is just around the corner. Sign up today, every tool you need is just around the corner. I keep checking every 6 months or so, now 4 years later, still not an option. I am now actively looking at dropping some serious coin on a viable solution for my needs. Can I get away with something like Deco? Can I figure out all of the workarounds that are needed to service my clientèle? Will it then still be simple enough to make money? Or do I need a custom system to maximize potential revenue at a substantially higher setup cost?
> 
> Understand that myself and others are here with valid question sifting though piles of biased posts looking for the viable ones that will help us maximize our profits. We are just doing our homework. Please forgive me if I offended anyone or their product, It is not my intention. Thanks for reading.


Hi:
I use to sell online but quit I found going out to do different shows work the best for me and also my designs don't get stolen as often this way and I'm making more money. My web link has been deed for over a year now.


----------



## AdvancedArtist

selzler said:


> Hi:
> I use to sell online but quit I found going out to do different shows work the best for me and also my designs don't get stolen as often this way and I'm making more money. My web link has been deed for over a year now.


Why did you quite?


----------



## mgparrish

AdvancedArtist said:


> DECO lets you manage the appearance of your site and that is great.. You can do that with OT also and with options, themes and templates from many designer and developers.
> 
> *BUT* DECO does not let you edit this.. It is called source code OT is open you can edit this and or take this and do anything you want to with it.... Yes there is a BIG difference.
> 
> package view
> {
> 
> import appFacade.ApplicationConstants;
> 
> import events.AlignEvent;
> import events.ArrangeEvent;
> 
> import flash.events.Event;
> 
> import model.design.CompositionProxy;
> import model.elements.DesignElementProxy;
> import model.products.vo.RegionVO;
> 
> import org.puremvc.as3.interfaces.IMediator;
> import org.puremvc.as3.interfaces.INotification;
> import org.puremvc.as3.patterns.mediator.Mediator;
> import org.puremvc.as3.utilities.undo.model.enum.UndoableCommandTypeEnum;
> 
> import view.components.designElement.DesignElementProperties;
> 
> 
> public class DesignElementPropertiesMediator extends Mediator implements IMediator
> {
> public static const NAME:String = 'DesignElementPropertiesMediator';
> 
> protected var propertiesViewesignElementProperties;
> private var _elementuid:String;
> private var designArea:RegionVO
> 
> public function DesignElementPropertiesMediator(viewComponent:Object )
> {
> super( NAME, viewComponent );
> }
> override public function onRegister():void
> {
> propertiesView = new DesignElementProperties();
> propertiesView.visible = false;
> propertiesView.addEventListener(ArrangeEvent.BRING_BACKWARD, handleBringBackward);
> propertiesView.addEventListener(ArrangeEvent.BRING_FORWARD, handleBringForward);
> propertiesView.addEventListener(ArrangeEvent.BRING_TO_TOP, handleBringToTop);
> propertiesView.addEventListener(ArrangeEvent.BRING_TO_BOTTOM, handleBringToBottom);
> propertiesView.addEventListener(DesignElementProperties.LOCK, handleLock);
> propertiesView.addEventListener(DesignElementProperties.UNLOCK, handleUnlock);
> propertiesView.addEventListener(DesignElementProperties.UNLOCK_PROPORTIONS, handleUnlockProportions);
> propertiesView.addEventListener(DesignElementProperties.LOCK_PROPORTIONS, handleLockProportions);
> propertiesView.addEventListener(DesignElementProperties.RESET_PROPORTIONS, handleResetProportions);
> propertiesView.addEventListener(AlignEvent.ALIGN_TO_BOTTOM, handleAlignToBottom);
> propertiesView.addEventListener(AlignEvent.ALIGN_TO_TOP, handleAlignToTop);
> propertiesView.addEventListener(AlignEvent.ALIGN_TO_RIGHT, handleAlignToRight);
> propertiesView.addEventListener(AlignEvent.ALIGN_TO_LEFT, handleAlignToLeft);
> propertiesView.addEventListener(AlignEvent.ALIGN_TO_CENTER_H, handleAlignToCenterH);
> propertiesView.addEventListener(AlignEvent.ALIGN_TO_CENTER_V, handleAlignToCenterV);
> propertiesView.addEventListener(DesignElementProperties.SELECT_ALL, handleSelectAll);
> propertiesView.addEventListener(DesignElementProperties.FIT_TO_AREA, handleFit);


Tom,

I tried to compile that but got an error on the line ... 

protected var propertiesViewesignElementProperties;

LOL.


----------



## AdvancedArtist

mgparrish said:


> Tom,
> 
> I tried to compile that but got an error on the line ...
> 
> protected var propertiesViewesignElementProperties;
> 
> LOL.


ROFLOL  Well you would need the 45,000 lines of free open source code to do that correctly.

AND AGAIN you do not NEED to be a programmer to use OT but, but if you want to hire a programer or if you are programer there is nothing in the system you cannot edit or customize for you custom products eCommerce business.


----------



## selzler

I quit because of people stealing designs and sales were weak my sales at show and events are much better than any website I tried.


----------



## AdvancedArtist

selzler said:


> I quit because of people stealing designs and sales were weak my sales at show and events are much better than any website I tried.


Well 7 years ago sales on my sites were weak now they are strong and I have stolen art all over the place along with my software and training.

I am sure you do well at the event but the Internet is now a local and global event. And I have found that most people in this industry are honest sincere people. Not all but the very large majority.

Perhaps it would be wise not to shut the door on your talents to the whole world because of some knock offs. Nike is knocked off all over the world but they have not closed their website because of that.


----------

