# Going to look at a couple DTG's, help me build a check list



## juncboi (Jul 17, 2011)

In a couple weeks, I will be driving down to SoCal from Sacramento to check out a couple of DTG printers. I am visiting with people who represent the manufacturer. I plan to purchase new when I make my decision. What I need help with is to build a list of things to look for and to ask. I have already started a list but want to see if anyone throws out something that I may have missed.

Here is what I thought of so far:
- What ink is recommend?
- What room temp works best for you?
- What humidity works best for you?
- Is there a brand of shirts you like to print on?
- How long does it typically take to respond to a support request?
- What is the expected learning curve for your printer?
- What is the expexted learning curve for your software?
- What computer operating system is your software most stable on?
- Can you print some art that I brought?
- How long did your demo machine sit before you started it up for me?

Thanks in advanced for chiming in.


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## TPrintDesigner (Sep 16, 2007)

Do this..

1) Take a whole bunch of shirts - your shirts in red, mid green and light blue

2) Take some art that uses the full size of the platen and has big fade outs, close shades of red, very thin lines of color at the top and bottom (to check for registration) and as much nasty stuff as possible to print

3) Next, grab a stopwatch and time how long it takes to print the above graphic from uploading to the computer, pre-treating, printing, to the end of the final cure. Compare this time between all the brands you are looking at

4) Next, produce some art that measures 15" in length and 8" wide. Time the machine to print 8 dark shirts in a row including the final cure. This will give you an indication of running a production job. Make sure the machines are running at the same resolution.

If you want to make money with DTG you need to print jobs FAST. I can't stress this enough. 

Don't trust a salesman. They are employed to sell machines. You are making a big investment that will take you a long time to pay off, never mind make a profit. I've sold software to hundreds of businesses running all brands of machines so have a very good picture what is going on out there. This statement will upset a lot of manufacturers but less than 10% have told me they have repaid their investment and made good money with DTG. Buyer beware.


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## juncboi (Jul 17, 2011)

TPrintDesigner,

That's a great idea. I hope they will let me use a little bit of their ink since I am a serious potential customer. Thank you!

Does anyone else have anything to add?


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## DAGuide (Oct 2, 2006)

TPrint gave you some great suggestions. Here are two videos that you should watch as well. I will send you a PM where you can download the DTG Fact Finder Chart that is discussed in video #2.

What to Consider Before Buying a DTG Printer Video


What to Consider When Buying a DTG Printer - GarmentTools.com - YouTube 





Comparing Direct-to-Garment Printers using DTG Fact Finder Video 



Comparing Direct to Garment Printers using DTG Fact Finder - GarmentTools.com - YouTube


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## Chicken Spit (Oct 2, 2011)

I say trash that list and buy a brother if you can afford it, Espesialy if you are new to DTG. If you only want to do CMYK you can get a very low print count used 541 cheep. The reason for that is everybody is trading in 541's on thre new 781's. So many dealers have 5or6 541's sitting on the shelf and willing to deal with you on price. Just poor mouth them and walk away from there first offer. show up a few weeks later, and show up with cash and see how good of a deal you can get. 8 to 9 grand for a 541 with less than 10,000 prints. 541's can easaly last 500,000 prints or more.

Good luck gettig what you need, but remember epson based DTG's need alot of maintance and print heads are gettin short on supply and I gaurentee you will need a few heads.


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## JeridHill (Feb 8, 2006)

Chicken Spit said:


> but remember epson based DTG's need alot of maintance and print heads are gettin short on supply and I gaurentee you will need a few heads.


Did you have a bad experience with an Epson based dtg printer? Also, where did you hear print heads are getting low on supply?


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## Chicken Spit (Oct 2, 2011)

JeridHill said:


> Did you have a bad experience with an Epson based dtg printer? Also, where did you hear print heads are getting low on supply?


 Yes I have 2 epson based DTG's and they are always giving me problems. I herd that from an epson certified tech a 4800 series are very hard to get and expensive and soon 4880's will get low. 

Even tryin to get heads from china is gettin very hard and expensive. I checked on 100.... 4800,s and could not get them. Then tryied 4880's and they wanted 875USD each for 100.

I am good friends with the epson tech and can get 4880 heads at 350.00 but you will never be able to do the same.


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## JeridHill (Feb 8, 2006)

What kind of problems are you having? As for the print heads in short supply, I'm assuming then, you are talking about the 4800 printer?


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## Chicken Spit (Oct 2, 2011)

Chicken Spit said:


> Yes I have 2 epson based DTG's and they are always giving me problems. I herd that from an epson certified tech a 4800 series are very hard to get and expensive and soon 4880's will get low.
> 
> Even tryin to get heads from china is gettin very hard and expensive. I checked on 100.... 4800,s and could not get them. Then tryied 4880's and they wanted 875USD each for 100.
> 
> I am good friends with the epson tech and can get 4880 heads at 350.00 but you will never be able to do the same.


"The one good thing about repeting your mistakes is that you know when to cringe"


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## Chicken Spit (Oct 2, 2011)

JeridHill said:


> What kind of problems are you having? As for the print heads in short supply, I'm assuming then, you are talking about the 4800 printer?


 Clogging and delamination and yes 4800 heads


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## JeridHill (Feb 8, 2006)

I can see how some of the older systems would clog more than others, what system are you running?


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## JeridHill (Feb 8, 2006)

As for delamination, what type of cleaners are you using?


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## Chicken Spit (Oct 2, 2011)

JeridHill said:


> As for delamination, what type of cleaners are you using?


 Hot water first if that dont work 50/50 cleaning soulution and hot water. I used to put 25 % simple green and 75% water in the capping station when printer would be sitting up will never do that again.


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## Chicken Spit (Oct 2, 2011)

JeridHill said:


> I can see how some of the older systems would clog more than others, what system are you running?


two SAWGRASS DA's White ink one is nightmares. I take the head out if sitting up 2 days or more big waste of ink. using DTG ink In refillable carts. Im thinkin of tryin kornit white? but may have to buy anouther head if im wrong.


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## DAGuide (Oct 2, 2006)

Chicken Spit said:


> Im thinkin of tryin kornit white? but may have to buy anouther head if im wrong.


Kornit ink is too thick for the Epson or Brother print heads. This has been tested a long time ago and the lesson was learned. Other thing to remember is Kornit heats up their ink a little bit before it is fired out of the print head from what I have been told. Neither the Epson or Brother print heads will do this.

Mark


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## Chicken Spit (Oct 2, 2011)

DAGuide said:


> Kornit ink is too thick for the Epson or Brother print heads. This has been tested a long time ago and the lesson was learned. Other thing to remember is Kornit heats up their ink a little bit before it is fired out of the print head from what I have been told. Neither the Epson or Brother print heads will do this.
> 
> Mark


 Thanks that will save 350 on new head. But the kornit price is so cheep. as for to thick what picoliter nozzeles are on a kornit? Brother's are 45 pico and Epsons are like 3.5 pico.


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## JeridHill (Feb 8, 2006)

On a personal level, I would never use simple green, that is most likely why your head is delaminating.


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## DAGuide (Oct 2, 2006)

You are comparing the wrong thing. The drop size is based on the firmware. Several of the Epson printers use the same exact print heads, but they have different drop sizes. You want to look at the viscosity of the ink. Outside of the Aeeon printer (which has not been released yet), Kornit has by far the thickest inks. Brother and the Ricoh based printers are next; with the Epson printers being the lowest. I have heard a lot of numbers thrown around and am not sure which ones are accurate. But the number you want to look at is called a centipoise (poise is unit of measurement for viscosity).

Mark


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## Chicken Spit (Oct 2, 2011)

DAGuide said:


> You are comparing the wrong thing. The drop size is based on the firmware. Several of the Epson printers use the same exact print heads, but they have different drop sizes. You want to look at the viscosity of the ink. Outside of the Aeeon printer (which has not been released yet), Kornit has by far the thickest inks. Brother and the Ricoh based printers are next; with the Epson printers being the lowest. I have heard a lot of numbers thrown around and am not sure which ones are accurate. But the number you want to look at is called a centipoise (poise is unit of measurement for viscosity).
> 
> Mark


Thanks again...when I get time I will look that up.. 

when I am setting head rank can I change a setting # to increase drop size for more ink???


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## DAGuide (Oct 2, 2006)

I don't think change anything when you do the head rank will make a difference since the firmware is on the boards in the printer. You would have to either re-write the firmware or get a new board. Issues will arise with changing the firmware at that point as there are differences in ink chips and other items from one printer to another. You will probably land up causes more issues trying to do this.

Mark


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## DTG Printer (Sep 18, 2011)

You missed one of the most important things. You got good advice here from Jerid and DA Guide. But man don't you want to know how much ink is going on your shirts" Without this information all of your other questions are pointless. You need to figure out if you can sell the shirts that get printed on this machine at a profit. How much is the ink and how do they calculate what is actually going on the shirt? If they give you the old $.60 a shirt routine run for your life. It doesn't hapen and will never happen. Bring a full size design and ask them to print it and then ask how many shirts of this size you can get out of one set of ink. If you have the stones ask them to guarantee that number in your contract.

We will be seeing everyone at SGIA in 2 weeks. We will post live reports about the sales pitch. Any manufacturer or rep who is interested in putting out their best pitch should contact us.


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## juncboi (Jul 17, 2011)

DTG Printer said:


> You missed one of the most important things. You got good advice here from Jerid and DA Guide. But man don't you want to know how much ink is going on your shirts" Without this information all of your other questions are pointless. You need to figure out if you can sell the shirts that get printed on this machine at a profit. How much is the ink and how do they calculate what is actually going on the shirt? If they give you the old $.60 a shirt routine run for your life. It doesn't hapen and will never happen. Bring a full size design and ask them to print it and then ask how many shirts of this size you can get out of one set of ink. If you have the stones ask them to guarantee that number in your contract.
> 
> We will be seeing everyone at SGIA in 2 weeks. We will post live reports about the sales pitch. Any manufacturer or rep who is interested in putting out their best pitch should contact us.


I know that the RIP software that comes with the printers estimate ink cost. Do you know how accurate the software is?


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## juncboi (Jul 17, 2011)

BTW, I posted a "thank you" post earlier but for some reason it hasn't been approved by the moderators. We'll see what happens.


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## JeridHill (Feb 8, 2006)

juncboi said:


> I know that the RIP software that comes with the printers estimate ink cost. Do you know how accurate the software is?


I imagine it depends on the software. On ours, the RIP is telling the printer how much ink to lay down. The ml is calculated and the price of the ink is input. Simply mathematics tells the final price. The only way it would be different is if you had head clogs and it printed less, but it should never be more.


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## juncboi (Jul 17, 2011)

JeridHill said:


> I imagine it depends on the software. On ours, the RIP is telling the printer how much ink to lay down. The ml is calculated and the price of the ink is input. Simply mathematics tells the final price. The only way it would be different is if you had head clogs and it printed less, but it should never be more.


Thanks for your reply Jerid. BTW, I never heard back from you.


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## JeridHill (Feb 8, 2006)

Sorry Charlee, .

Actually, I don't know what happened. Apparently, I must've lost my mind.


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## DTG Printer (Sep 18, 2011)

The only way to estimate ink costs is by printing and keeping log books. Long production runs will always give better information than RIP calculators which do not account for waste thru purges and cleanings. 

If you can run a job that has 500 prints in it and the job is 10"x12" and you spend $1500.00 on inks, including waste, you know a 10"x12" print is $3.00 everyday that you turn on your machine. It's not negotiable at that point.


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## Chicken Spit (Oct 2, 2011)

Ink cost is only half the story, maintence cost will equal or exceed the price of ink if you are new to DTG printing. Most company’s count on the extra money they will make coming out to your business to fix stuff that goes wrong. If you think mechanics are a rip off this will give you a new outlook. You need to think, how much I will have to spend to keep this printer up and running. One time of letting the ink set to long in the head and you just spent 600 bucks. That is if you can replace the head and dampers yourself? If you cant, double that. Warrentes dont cover your mistakes, and almost all problems will be blamed on you. You don’t have to set head rank for garment printing but it helps and that’s one of there selling points to convince you they need to do the work. Most of the time their right. But its big money!

I can tell you no seller will ever give any info on maitence cost, they just keep talkin about ink and printer cost per shirt. But there’s a lot more to it. Make sure you can replace and clean an Epson head. If your lookin at an Epson based printer. It’s not that hard, 30 min if you know what you are doing. But think about what Im telling you. It will happen!!!!


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## JeridHill (Feb 8, 2006)

DTG Printer said:


> Long production runs will always give better information than RIP calculators which do not account for waste thru purges and cleanings.


This is a good point. When the head spits, it will waste a little, but it is nominal. As for a head clean with ours, I've calculated it at $0.44 per head clean. Ours doesn't do a head clean until we tell it to. I would have to look and see, but it might also do a head clean every xx amount of prints, but it's quite a few, I just don't remember the number.


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## JeridHill (Feb 8, 2006)

Chicken Spit said:


> I can tell you no seller will ever give any info on maitence cost, they just keep talkin about ink and printer cost per shirt. But there’s a lot more to it. Make sure you can replace and clean an Epson head. If your lookin at an Epson based printer. It’s not that hard, 30 min if you know what you are doing. But think about what Im telling you. It will happen!!!!


What's funny about this statement is, I was in the middle of replying but in the process, your post was not posted yet. So I didn't read your reply until just now. In my response, I gave the cost for doing a simple clean. An ink charge is $2.60, but vary rarely will you have to do that.

Here is a video on daily maintenance. The only thing I didn't put in the video was to wipe around the bottom of the printhead. But as you can see, we don't have anything to hide.

I'm sorry that you've been burned in this industry. It's a new industry and the fact is, not everyone has lived up to their word when it comes to follow through and full disclosure. It's not an excuse, it's just the way this industry started out. In my opinion, on the wrong foot. That being said, there are companies on the market, trying to change that.

Mod1 Maintenance - YouTube


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## DTG Printer (Sep 18, 2011)

JeridHill said:


> This is a good point. When the head spits, it will waste a little, but it is nominal. As for a head clean with ours, I've calculated it at $0.44 per head clean. Ours doesn't do a head clean until we tell it to. I would have to look and see, but it might also do a head clean every xx amount of prints, but it's quite a few, I just don't remember the number.


Everybody is spitting ink. I have been in the printing biz for along time. We do need to be vigilant with DTG ink cost. This is not $40.00 plastisol its more like liquid gold! 

The easiest way to measure is if your system uses bottles. Simply mark the bottles , subtract the remaining ink from what you started with and you've got ink cost.


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## DTG Printer (Sep 18, 2011)

BTW: I've bee thru a lot of gear in 25 years. My advice is to not get service techs and their dispatchers mad at you by publicly beating them. Do it in private. Would you run out to service a guy that just publicly beat on you?


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## Chicken Spit (Oct 2, 2011)

JeridHill said:


> What's funny about this statement is, I was in the middle of replying but in the process, your post was not posted yet. So I didn't read your reply until just now. In my response, I gave the cost for doing a simple clean. An ink charge is $2.60, but vary rarely will you have to do that.
> 
> Here is a video on daily maintenance. The only thing I didn't put in the video was to wipe around the bottom of the printhead. But as you can see, we don't have anything to hide.
> 
> ...


With all do respect: Im not sayin I have been burned by any seller. because I havent, but when I was a newbe I to had to spend alot of money. If you need a list, maybe you are new to DTG and you will make some costly mistakes. Just sayin epsions need alot of love and care and waste ink on cleanings. because all chanales are cleaned at once. Unlike 541's that are newbe friendly. 

But are you sayin, belquette printers with white ink very rarely need a head replacment. How many prints could I get on average, per head replacement? I could go on vaction for a week and be ok leaving the ink in the printer?

I have looked very hard at your printers and neoflex..... real hard. I cant afford a 781... but am worried its the same old epson thing??


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## JeridHill (Feb 8, 2006)

Tom, don't get me wrong, this isn't a promotion of our machines, it's helping to bring clarity to a cloudy discussion. Not cloudy from anything you said, but cloudy because of the history of dtg up to this point. The lack of information, the over promises of what dtg is or what it should be. The history of Epson converted printers started out great, but then white ink came along and added a new dynamic. I know every machine on the market have problems with white ink regardless if it's Epson based or not. Some more than others, but so far from what I've seen, every one has.

I can tell you, once we've connected our ink systems to printers other than our own, we have seen the print head life itself extended tremendously. There is a principle behind it that applies and it has to do with the air in the ink, whether seen or not.

The Mod1 printer itself is prone to head clogs, replaced heads, etc, just like every other printer, the difference is, when our ink system is applied, it completely changes the the printer and it's functionality. 
We've also created safeguards to protect certain parts of the system including the print head. There are various elements to make a dtg printer function properly, we've applied many to our system. We are working on more technologies to make our Mod series perform even better than it already does. The idea though, is not to leave anyone behind who have already purchased our printers. Although I can't disclose what we are doing, I can say our goal is anyone with our previous models will never have to be left out with upgrades to their system(s).

We've put a lot of work into this series and will continue to do so. That being said, I can't imagine we are the only ones. So even though Epson based dtg printers have a blemished start, I believe we and others are trying to change the reality behind that. Of course, there can be advantages to not having Epson based systems, but the largest disadvantage to the average user is up front costs.


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## TPrintDesigner (Sep 16, 2007)

IMHO It's crazy to be buying a new DTG printer right now. With the new generation machines around the corner your purchase will be old technology. Outsource for a year and buy one of the fast machines once the bugs have been ironed out.


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## juncboi (Jul 17, 2011)

Thanks for all the input!

Ink Cost:
This is a great discussion that is preparing me for what to expect. I can only imagine what you are talking about but I have pretty much made my decision that DTG is the way I want to go. Estimated ink cost will go on my list as something to look at when I am looking at these machines.

Service Techs:
I will need some tech support but I don't think I'll need service techs unless the issue is warranty work or a catastrophic failure. I come from an IT background and have torn apart and rebuilt quite a few different types of printers. I'm sure my past experience is going to help me with the DTG printer.

New Machines:
I beleive that there is no better time to get a printer than now. Money can be made with a current machine or a future machine. Of course I will take into consideration that there may be new models coming out. I will certainly take my sweet time with due diligence before purchasing. Maybe, in that time, a new model will come out and I can be one of the first to purchase.


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## Chicken Spit (Oct 2, 2011)

juncboi said:


> Thanks for all the input!
> 
> Ink Cost:
> This is a great discussion that is preparing me for what to expect. I can only imagine what you are talking about but I have pretty much made my decision that DTG is the way I want to go. Estimated ink cost will go on my list as something to look at when I am looking at these machines.
> ...


Just do yourself a favor and look at a Brother DTG printer and compair it to all the others.


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## juncboi (Jul 17, 2011)

Chicken Spit said:


> Just do yourself a favor and look at a Brother DTG printer and compair it to all the others.


I am familiar with that printer. The printer that I currently source to has a Brother 541. It is a very solid machine but I have turned away just as many black shirt orders as I get in white. This is one of the main reasons why I am considering a printer that can do white ink.


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