# The Problem Nobody Discusses With Sublimation



## hotdogg1boy (Apr 1, 2011)

I'm wondering if anyone can honestly say that they do not have a problem with head clogs? I thought I had everything ready to go with my online business but before I even got my website up, I had to purchase a new Epson printer. I had the 1400 and only did product testing when the heads clogged and with each cleaning only got worse. I used a complete bottle of Magic Bullet from the UK and also PiezoFlush with no luck. I've tried hot water on the pad to using simple green and denatured alcohol. Even running the print head over paper towels soak with solutions and forcing liquids through the heads.

I now own an Epson 1430 and printed every other day to prevent clogs. Guess what, another printer I'll probably have to throw away. I've only had the printer for a little over a month and if I had to do it over again, I'd have never gotten into the sublimation business. I'm using J-Tech inks because they are specially formulated and I thought I'd have no problems. I've spent several thousand dollars with nothing to show for it.

Any comments would be greatly appreciated. I'm almost tempted to buy an Epson 7900 but I don't want to throw more money down the drain.​


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## charles95405 (Feb 1, 2007)

I have been in sublimation since 1997 and have had very few head clog issues...and none in past 3 years since I switched to the Ricoh printers and I ALWAYS have used Sawgrass inks..I know the arguments on monopoly etc...and the costs,,but cost of ink per image is not that much....I just adjust my price accordingly...my customers are happy and my bank account is also... sometimes when we save a few dollars, we end up spending more..
Sawgrass has Sublijet and Artainium in USA and in EU they have those plus Rotach..


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## GordonM (May 21, 2012)

I think it stands to reason if everyone had the problems you did then no one would be using it.

I'm not at all sure J-Tech inks are suitable for desktop Epson printers, and they are not sold as such. The desktop models use a different (less expensive) priming and damping mechanism.

Both the 1400 and 1430 are designed for Claria dye inks, which have the smallest of all pigmentation solids. In order of increasing size is pigment inks, like what a 7010 would use, then sublimation dye, which has the largest solids.

If you go the route of a 7900 buy from a dealer that also supports sublimation inks, and buy the inks from them. Then you'll at least have a support network you can rely on, and -- with the right dealer -- a warranty for the printer and ink combination. The 7900 is designed for Ultrachrome inks, which are pigment based.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

hotdogg1boy said:


> I'm wondering if anyone can honestly say that they do not have a problem with head clogs? I thought I had everything ready to go with my online business but before I even got my website up, I had to purchase a new Epson printer. I had the 1400 and only did product testing when the heads clogged and with each cleaning only got worse. I used a complete bottle of Magic Bullet from the UK and also PiezoFlush with no luck. I've tried hot water on the pad to using simple green and denatured alcohol. Even running the print head over paper towels soak with solutions and forcing liquids through the heads.
> 
> I now own an Epson 1430 and printed every other day to prevent clogs. Guess what, another printer I'll probably have to throw away. *I've only had the printer for a little over a month* and if I had to do it over again, I'd have never gotten into the sublimation business. I'm using J-Tech inks because they are specially formulated and I thought I'd have no problems. I've spent several thousand dollars with nothing to show for it.​
> Any comments would be greatly appreciated. I'm almost tempted to buy an Epson 7900 but I don't want to throw more money down the drain.​


If you have only had the printer for a little over a month then you should be able to get a no questions asked quick exchange from Epson. Use desktop sublimation inks, not wide format unless you get the 7900.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

charles95405 said:


> I have been in sublimation since 1997 and have had very few head clog issues...and none in past 3 years since I switched to the Ricoh printers and I ALWAYS have used Sawgrass inks..I know the arguments on monopoly etc...and the costs,,but cost of ink per image is not that much....I just adjust my price accordingly...my customers are happy and my bank account is also... sometimes when we save a few dollars, we end up spending more..
> Sawgrass has Sublijet and Artainium in USA and in EU they have those plus Rotach..


Charles, obviously you are not selling many sublimation tshirts. Cost does matter there, a 11 x 17 print using Sawgrass inks is about $3 - $4 additional beyond the added cost of a poly tshirt. Hard to price accordingly when large format competition can kill you just due to the delta in ink costs.

The context of your statement is only valid for small items with large mark-up. For tshirts and large items that dog don't hunt.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

GordonM said:


> I think it stands to reason if everyone had the problems you did then no one would be using it.
> 
> I'm not at all sure J-Tech inks are suitable for desktop Epson printers, and they are not sold as such. The desktop models use a different (less expensive) priming and damping mechanism.
> 
> ...


100% spot on.


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## charles95405 (Feb 1, 2007)

Mike.as usual you know not of what you speak regarding MY business....I certainly sold enough sublimation tees to show a profit.. but since I have my DTG I do not do sublimation shirts unless s
specifically asked. my comments relate ONLY TO MY EXPERIENCE.... and I believe I am best qualified to speak to that narrow subject.


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## DAGuide (Oct 2, 2006)

There is no doubt that sublimation printers can clog. The past history shows this and no one should try to hide this. However, the clogging of any piezo printer is based on several factors, including (but not limited) to the following two items:
1. Amount of usage.
2. Temperature / Humidity.

If you do not use your printer enough, it will clog. If you put your printer in an environment in that is outside of the recommended ranges of temperatures / humidity for the ink being used, it will clog faster. These principles apply to any piezo printer - no matter what ink you put in it.

I only state that this to make sure these principles are understood. If they help improve the O.P.'s position, then it is a step in the right direction. These forums are about a place to learn how to improve and grow one's business. Hope this post can turn that way as well.

Best wishes,

Mark


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

charles95405 said:


> Mike.as usual you know not of what you speak regarding MY business....I certainly sold enough sublimation tees to show a profit.. but since I have my DTG I do not do sublimation shirts unless s
> specifically asked. my comments relate ONLY TO MY EXPERIENCE.... and I believe I am best qualified to speak to that narrow subject.


Charles, I already knew you had DTG, and also your sub printer is letter size ... No? Most subbing tshirts are using at least 11 x17 or larger printers. Certainly you have been selling sublimation for a long time, but you should add _context_ to your statements, for example what you mostly print with your letter size Ricoh. 

Fact SG inks are very expensive on tshirts if you print full tabloid or larger. I would rather put most of the added $3- $4 dollars per shirt in my pocket and not in Nathan Hales pocket. I don't care if a mug costs me 10 cents more using SG inks, but it does matter with larger substrates.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

DAGuide said:


> There is no doubt that sublimation printers can clog. The past history shows this and no one should try to hide this. However, the clogging of any piezo printer is based on several factors, including (but not limited) to the following two items:
> 1. Amount of usage.
> 2. Temperature / Humidity.
> 
> ...


Dead on, piezo inkjet, use it or lose it.


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## charles95405 (Feb 1, 2007)

I give up.... can't win


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

charles95405 said:


> I give up.... can't win


Charles you give up too easy!

All due respect. Why do you have a DTG if you can just sublimate tshirts "and price accordingly"?

Why pay $8 - $10K for a DTG that doesn't do white (as you have stated before), it doesn't get you better tshirts than sublimation will. Sublimation is superiour. 

_The fact is that no one would DTG on light colors if they could just sell as many sublimation and tshirts and mark up to cover the delta and make the same bottom line net profit_. 

You may sell some volume of sublimation tshirts but my money says you DTG so you can sell more volume than you could if you just sublimated? The volumes are a result of being able to price more competitive than sublimation, I mean your DTG cost you a nice chunk of change?

Shirt costs matter, so does ink costs. Take an expensive shirt to start with and expensive sub inks ... makes perfect sense why you have a DTG.


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## DAGuide (Oct 2, 2006)

Mike,

I am a huge fan of dye sublimation and dtg printing. (I have sold both a RIP for dye sub and pretreat fluid for dtg printing on polyester / blends for years). Nothing beats dye sub on hard substrates. However, many people struggle with press lines from the paper on dye sub with desktop printers. This can be easily resolved with dtg printing the garments. Not to mention this can be done on blend and cotton garments with a dye sub printer.

Both have their own markets and the crossover is very minimal in my opinion. T-shirts are the primary crossover. I encourage people to provide their customers with both decorating techniques. However, this does not mean that they have to own a dye sub printer. There are plenty of sources where garment decorators can get dye sub transfers printed for them. Just something to consider.

Just my opinion.

Mark


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## plan b (Feb 21, 2007)

DAGuide said:


> There are plenty of sources where garment decorators can get dye sub transfers printed for them. Just something to consider.
> 
> Just my opinion.
> 
> Mark


This would be a smart move and the op would be money ahead to consider this, seems that this thread has moved away from the op original post and on to something else entirely


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

DAGuide said:


> Mike,
> 
> I am a huge fan of dye sublimation and dtg printing. (I have sold both a RIP for dye sub and pretreat fluid for dtg printing on polyester / blends for years). Nothing beats dye sub on hard substrates. However, many people struggle with press lines from the paper on dye sub with desktop printers. This can be easily resolved with dtg printing the garments. Not to mention this can be done on blend and cotton garments with a dye sub printer.
> 
> ...


I'm not anti DTG, it's just not a good fit for me. I don't sell tshirts with creases.

My point is that you are already dis-advantaged sublimating tshirts,_ ink cost adders do matter_.

1. Cost of raw tshirt.
2. Time to make a sublimation tshirt without crease lines (as you mention).

Tshirts by and large are very cost competitive. 

If you are already starting out with those 2 cost adders sublimating then adding 3 - 4 bucks per shirt for inks then at some point you cannot justify your prices and cannot just pass on costs. Those adders in my case are not dollar for dollar either to my customers, 100% that's why I am in cheap inks.

You either "eat" some of those those added ink costs, or accept lower sales volume overall if you have to scale those prices accordingly. 

_I also have little crossover, but this is largely due to cost._ I do inkjet pigment transfers for most of my tshirts or outsource plastisol transfers and just press those. 

However, cost is the #1 factor in your tshirt volume, assuming your quality is good. I could sell a ton of sublimation tshirts irrespective of the garment material if the cost to the customer were comparable to other technologes. 

For every customer that insists on 100% cotton there are just as many that would prefer the performance shirt and it's better quality if they can see the tshirts side by side, and have the opportunty to wash a sublimation tshirt vs. a DTG. It's the final customer price first and foremost.

Most balk on price, especially since you can't discount nearly as deep for volume orders due to the upcharge of the shirt and the time needed to make a sublimation tshirt. Adding $3 - $4 dollars for expensive inks just exaggerates this.

Rest assured there would be much much more crossover if I could sell sub shirts as cheap as other garments. I simply can't buy the argument sublimation ink costs don't matter once tshirts are brought into this context.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

plan b said:


> This would be a smart move and the op would be money ahead to consider this, seems that this thread has moved away from the op original post and on to something else entirely


Yes, if I had to add $3 - $4 ink costs to my sublimation tshirts (per shirt) by paying for SG inks it sure would make more sense to outsource, SK Dave's transfers here are like a buck for a 16 x 20. I guess he (Dave) wouldn't do much business if ink costs didn't matter and we could just mark up things accordingly.


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## HumbleShirts (Sep 7, 2007)

So what's the general consensus on the gel type dye sub inks like that are used with the Ricoh printers? Word is that these inks produce the most vibrant colors.

I use a dye sub cut and sew house and I have no idea what they use but it's all wide format and they've only told me they use some kind of Italian inks or something. I don't see much info on that class of dye sub materials.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

HTT130 said:


> So what's the general consensus on the gel type dye sub inks like that are used with the Ricoh printers? Word is that these inks produce the most vibrant colors.
> 
> I use a dye sub cut and sew house and I have no idea what they use but it's all wide format and they've only told me they use some kind of Italian inks or something. I don't see much info on that class of dye sub materials.


Ricoh only goes up to tabloid size so not a player in wide format.


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## hotdogg1boy (Apr 1, 2011)

Actually, I really can't afford the Epson 7900. What printer model would you recommend in the 13" wide range? I have to use the J-Tech inks because I paid close to $1000 for quart size bottles. Thanks so much to all for their help!


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## Riderz Ready (Sep 18, 2008)

hotdogg1boy said:


> Actually, I really can't afford the Epson 7900. What printer model would you recommend in the 13" wide range? I have to use the J-Tech inks because I paid close to $1000 for quart size bottles. Thanks so much to all for their help!


Which J-Teck ink are you running - does it say "NEXT" on the bottle?


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## GordonM (May 21, 2012)

mgparrish said:


> Yes, if I had to add $3 - $4 ink costs to my sublimation tshirts (per shirt) by paying for SG inks it sure would make more sense to outsource, SK Dave's transfers here are like a buck for a 16 x 20. I guess he (Dave) wouldn't do much business if ink costs didn't matter and we could just mark up things accordingly.


This is indeed getting a bit off-topic, but in some ways it addresses the OP's original concerns, so I oped to post anyway.

First, I agree totally with your comments. 

The days of just cranking up the retail cost to compensate for the cost of goods are just about over, thanks largely to the increase in Chinese eBayers and others who are severely undercutting the market, even for personalized products. Shipping by HK post is inexpensive, and for those willing to wait the 2-3 weeks delivery, they can get things like iPhone covers for $5, or subbed t-shirts for $8 (even less).

If you have a retail store, or established sales channel, or customers that require faster turnaround, things might be different, but that may not always stand. In the Internet age customers have a way of becoming better educated where the deals are. 

It's becoming cheaper, in many instances, to outsource finished goods from China, India, and other countries where the high cost of inks and blanks are not a problem. The rest are being squeezed out by Sawgrass, Unisub, and the other traditional players that insist on keeping prices high for the domestic desktop sublimation provider. 

For everyone trying to sell a custom subbed license plate for $20, there are more folks willing to do it for $10, and not a few off-shore outfits as low as $6. Hard to make money at those prices given the cost of inks and blanks in this country. 

So the first thing you MUST do, if you want to continue to compete, is look for ways to decrease your costs. Customers will not continue to pay top dollar. If you don't keep an eye on your costs the global market will eventually overrun you, and make you irrelevant.


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## Riderz Ready (Sep 18, 2008)

A lot to think about for many people, especially those first starting. Personally I think going into dye sub to sell shirts is a death warrant. You are not only competing against other people in our market you are competing against screeners, vinyl crushers, DTG, etc. Your setting yourself up to fail. Second note on t-shirts - - - if you are truly selling a "t-shirt" you will never make a cent. Same holds true for most products in apparel. If you are selling designs your price goes up as does your profit. 

Example in our market. A kid can go to a store and buy a jersey for around $30.00 yet we charge $64 for that single jersey because we are selling the design not the jersey. 

Big picture is you have to find a niche. Even with a desktop system there are many unique things one can do. 

Another example - late last week our MaxiPress had a pin slide out of the frame and the whole thing had to be taken apart and put back together using a forklift.

During the down time fired up the old desktop press and in one day we made 80 beanies and about 20 number plates for before tax profit of over $500. 

My point is "F" t-shirts if you want to make money in the dye sub world. 

I also do not buy into the comment about just mark things up more if your cost are more. I would much rather reduce my cost and stick that money in my pocket.


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## HumbleShirts (Sep 7, 2007)

Riderz Ready said:


> .....
> Big picture is you have to find a niche. Even with a desktop system there are many unique things one can do.


Man, I just looked at your website. You have some really nice stuff. I have one client that we provide his dye sub custom cut and sew pieces and it's usually 50-150 shirts about every 4-5 months. The design is a little more mundane than your stuff but it's a running group and they're particular about their fabric.

What else do you do? Are you retail only? Do you take on any contract work?


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## hotdogg1boy (Apr 1, 2011)

Yes, the J-Teck does say NEXT on the bottle. 

I believe from someone's earlier post that the printers I've been using are for ink only. I just found out that I need to purchase a pigment printer. I ordered one today and hopefully that will solve the problem. Thanks to everyone who replied.


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## GordonM (May 21, 2012)

Hmmm... I think had it been me, I would have found a buyer for the JTech ink, and gone with something made for the Epson desktops, like Artainium. You can get that at discount prices from eBay sellers.


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## Riderz Ready (Sep 18, 2008)

GordonM said:


> Hmmm... I think had it been me, I would have found a buyer for the JTech ink, and gone with something made for the Epson desktops, like Artainium. You can get that at discount prices from eBay sellers.


No wide format printer would buy open bottles of ink. Way way too big of a risk.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

hotdogg1boy said:


> Yes, the J-Teck does say NEXT on the bottle.
> 
> I believe from someone's earlier post that the printers I've been using are for ink only. I just found out that I need to purchase a pigment printer. I ordered one today and hopefully that will solve the problem. Thanks to everyone who replied.


Looks like to me those inks are what is killing your printers. Desktop Epsons don't meet the description from the ink manufacturer for those inks. They are designed for the latest class of wide format printers.

http://www.j-teckusa.com/j-next.aspx

"
J-Next JXS-65 is our newest line of sublimation inks. Made with cluster technology, *these inks meet the demands of high speed printers.* Cluster technology encapsulates the ink’s molecules so that they are stable rather than chaotic. *The structured state allows for an easier pass through in high speed piezo head printers such as Roland, Mimaki JV5/ JV33, Epson 9700 / 9900, Mutoh and any wide format OEM printer.* The inks are not affected by the pumps and pressurized feeding systems that are often accompanied with these printers. J-NEXT is made with the same nanodot technology and ecofriendly characteristics.

Best to cut your losses and sell those inks _if you can_ and use desktop inks. Although the 1400/1430 printers are dye based regular desktop sublimation inks don't kill your printer so fast. A pigment printer is best but not to say those wide format inks won't booger up your pigment desktop either.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

hotdogg1boy said:


> Yes, the J-Teck does say NEXT on the bottle.
> 
> I believe from someone's earlier post that the printers I've been using are for ink only. I just found out that I need to purchase a pigment printer. I ordered one today and hopefully that will solve the problem. Thanks to everyone who replied.


If you are forced to keep those inks because you can't sell them suggest to get a cheap ($60 -$70) 4 color letter size desktop Epson and use that for a Guinea Pig and use that for small hard good items. You get a 1 year warranty with your $60 Guinea Pig and Epson don't investigate failures from inks on desktops anyway. If it kills your $60 Guinea Pig then chuck it get a quick replacment from Epson under warranty ... "lather, rinse, and repeat" as often as needed  

For tshirt size transfers you need tabloid or bigger, so don't make your $200 printer a Guinea Pig if your business focus is on tshirts, you don't need the downtime and frustration .. use the proper inks for your productions. As Gordon mentioned, Artainium are half price on Ebay or search the threads here for the other low cost desktop alternative to Sawgrass.


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## GordonM (May 21, 2012)

mgparrish said:


> If you are forced to keep those inks because you can't sell them suggest to get a cheap ($60 -$70) color letter size desktop Epson and use that for a Guinea Pig


Excellent idea. 

On selling the inks...occasionally I see people doing it on eBay, and there are buyers, apparently. (Heck, there are people selling *expired* ink! What's with that?) I don't think I'd risk it, as I'm not much of a gambler. But if the price is right, who knows. Put into cartridges instead of a CISS it might be worth the try.

It would have been great to have had the JTech ink work in the small format printers, though. If anyone else has tried this, and it's worked, I'd like to know, just out of curiosity.


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## Riderz Ready (Sep 18, 2008)

Far from an engineer but have unfortunately learned more about ink recently than I care to know.

Do I think ink is specifically formulated for wide format versus desktop - not at all. If this was the case ink manufactures would have to formulate ink depending on who actually made the head.

Reading the desciption from the orginal post it sounds like a classic case of the membrane failing inside the head. If you lose a color or partial color you may have what is referred to as a "clog". When you lose everything there is a good chance you membrane is fried and there is nothing you can do to get that back.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

Riderz Ready said:


> Far from an engineer but have unfortunately learned more about ink recently than I care to know.
> 
> Do I think ink is specifically formulated for wide format versus desktop - not at all. If this was the case ink manufactures would have to formulate ink depending on who actually made the head.
> 
> Reading the desciption from the orginal post it sounds like a classic case of the membrane failing inside the head. If you lose a color or partial color you may have what is referred to as a "clog". When you lose everything there is a good chance you membrane is fried and there is nothing you can do to get that back.


No one really knows why those **2** printers in a row failed prematurely, could be co-incidence but I see a trend. Very premature failure is usually for a reason. That question could only be answered by subjecting 2 guinea pigs side by side, one with desktop sub inks marketed for desktop, the other with Jtechs and see which one makes it to the finish line first.

Anyway, you could be right. I recall you posted recently that you went thru 3 heads in a short period of time with Jtechs, you are printing a higher volume but your printheads are also industrial. Until someone actually tests objectively ... then hard to say. If the JTeck Next is designed for higher speed printers there could be some "stuff" in them that allow that, but could greatly reduce the lifespan in a desktop without industrial printheads. But ???

Anyway, would be a good question to answer for desktop printers since "the patent" is about to expire. Need some guinea pigs.


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## Riderz Ready (Sep 18, 2008)

mgparrish said:


> No one really knows why those **2** printers in a row failed prematurely, could be co-incidence but I see a trend. Very premature failure is usually for a reason. That question could only be answered by subjecting 2 guinea pigs side by side, one with desktop sub inks marketed for desktop, the other with Jtechs and see which one makes it to the finish line first.
> 
> Anyway, you could be right. I recall you posted recently that you went thru 3 heads in a short period of time with Jtechs, you are printing a higher volume but your printheads are also industrial. Until someone actually tests objectively ... then hard to say. If the JTeck Next is designed for higher speed printers there could be some "stuff" in them that allow that, but could greatly reduce the lifespan in a desktop without industrial printheads. But ???
> 
> Anyway, would be a good question to answer for desktop printers since "the patent" is about to expire. Need some guinea pigs.


We have discovered, after much digging, what caused the failures which was in fact the membrane. 

When patents expire do I think manufactures will actually create two separate inks one for desktop one for wide format - not at all. Do I think they will be labled differently - absolutely as it is the easiest way to keep prices inflated on desktop inks.


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## GordonM (May 21, 2012)

There's a difference in the heads, so it stands to reason there might be a difference in the inks.

The commercial printers produce higher pressures, to propel the inks faster and farther. While I don't know the specifics between the inks, in a similar line of work, applying thin-film coatings require the materials to withstand the pressures they are under, or else the liquid separates. This is done with various kinds of emulsifiers.

I have a low pressure high volume paint sprayer. It will only work with certain kinds of paints and liquids, or else the thing gets hopelessly gunked up. Same paints work fine in traditional sprayers, using the same nozzle bore. I realize paint is not the same as dye sub inks, but pressure does matter in the engineering of the thing.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

GordonM said:


> There's a difference in the heads, so it stands to reason there might be a difference in the inks.
> 
> The commercial printers produce higher pressures, to propel the inks faster and farther. While I don't know the specifics between the inks, in a similar line of work, applying thin-film coatings require the materials to withstand the pressures they are under, or else the liquid separates. This is done with various kinds of emulsifiers.
> 
> I have a low pressure high volume paint sprayer. It will only work with certain kinds of paints and liquids, or else the thing gets hopelessly gunked up. Same paints work fine in traditional sprayers, using the same nozzle bore. I realize paint is not the same as dye sub inks, but pressure does matter in the engineering of the thing.


To your point fluid viscosity is a also factor in the abilty of a fluid to be delivered at a higher rate or not. Ricoh "gel" inks have a different viscosity I would presume than Epson inks and the Ricoh printhead design and system design takes those into account.

Although both Epson pigments and Ricohs pigment are both "pigments", and both are piezo printers, that doesn't mean we can expect the same performance or printer lifetime if we consider those 2 different inks to be interchangeable.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

Riderz Ready said:


> We have discovered, after much digging, what caused the failures which was in fact the membrane.
> 
> *When patents expire do I think manufactures will actually create two separate inks one for desktop one for wide format - not at all.* Do I think they will be labled differently - absolutely as it is the easiest way to keep prices inflated on desktop inks.


Most may not, however, Sawgrass may be an exception as they currently make different inks for different format printers. Even when their patent expires they have an installed "legacy" base of desktop users that have existing art files that have to be re-tweaked in order to use the SG WF inks, so I see SG keeping the status quo on their brands as long as they can. 

If I was in SG's shoes I would be worried that forcing desktop users into a common ink base with WF ... then if the desktop user is forced to switch then why stay with SG at all? 

Good question if others like Jteck actually will manufacturer a different ink or not, however, if the case of the OP is that the inks are destroying the printers way to prematurely then the marketplace will decide if they can survive in small format or not. 

Another question is that with the cheap inks that will be coming soon will the WF ink manufactures consider that market profitable enough to even wander into small format? 

For sure desktop inks will always be more expensive, if for nothing else due to the rule of "cheaper by the dozen". But not having a monopoly like SG they will be subjected to fierce competition, so we can only speculate to the question of if the WF ink vendors even "go there" or not. 

The practical question for the OP is that after 2 printers dying very prematurely is it co-incidence the inks had anything to do with it or not. It makes me suspicious, however, no real conclusion could be drawn without more guinea pigs to confirm the suspicion. _What would you do if you were in his shoes?_

Since Jtech doesn't sell into the desktop market and have real field data then I would expect they would set up some desktop printers for lifetime testing before they would release _common_ inks to the desktop and answer that question of universal compatibility. I would. But then the pre-requisite to that is whether or not Jteck has a viable desktop market in the first place ... in their eyes.

Things will be interesting.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

GordonM said:


> *There's a difference in the heads, so it stands to reason there might be a difference in the inks.*
> 
> The commercial printers produce higher pressures, to propel the inks faster and farther. While I don't know the specifics between the inks, in a similar line of work, applying thin-film coatings require the materials to withstand the pressures they are under, or else the liquid separates. This is done with various kinds of emulsifiers.
> 
> I have a low pressure high volume paint sprayer. It will only work with certain kinds of paints and liquids, or else the thing gets hopelessly gunked up. Same paints work fine in traditional sprayers, using the same nozzle bore. I realize paint is not the same as dye sub inks, but pressure does matter in the engineering of the thing.


According to Epson there is a new generation of inks on all the new wide format models.

There are no such inks on the desktop now. 

Unless Epson is just making marketing buzz words for the unwashed masses the Wide Format inks are not the same as the desktops. In the past some of the the 8 color desktop models and the 8 color wide formats had the same inks just in larger or smaller volume containers and were not differentiated in marketing terms or with marketing "buzzwords". 

It stands to reason that a _wise_ sublimation ink manufacturer would do the same, make the inks match the new technology. To change the gamut on standard inks = new chemistry. New chemistry is no guarantee to work with models lower on the food chain with different print head designs.

"Designed to redefine the standard for photographic print quality, the Epson Stylus Pro 4900 incorporates our latest achievements in professional-level ink jet technology. By combining the precision of our MicroPiezo® TFP® print head with the extraordinary performance of Epson UltraChrome® HDR Ink, our newest generation of Epson Stylus Pro printers continue to represent a level of technology unprecedented in Epson's history.
Epson UltraChrome HDR represents the latest generation of pigment ink technology. Now utilizing ten colors - including an all-new Orange and Green - Epson UltraChrome HDR Ink produces the widest color gamut ever from an Epson Stylus Pro printer." 

Epson Stylus Pro 7700 | 9700 - Epson Professional Imaging - Epson America, Inc.


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## vmark1 (Sep 17, 2011)

- if you are truly selling a "t-shirt" you will never make a cent. Same holds true for most products in apparel. If you are selling designs your price goes up as does your profit. 

Example in our market. A kid can go to a store and buy a jersey for around $30.00 yet we charge $64 for that single jersey because we are selling the design not the jersey."

Your design comment is spot on. If anyone is considering ways to make money in the print, t shirt biz. That is great advice for anyone thinking of doing anything in any part of this business. 

Beautiful work btw....

Cordially

Mark


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