# Would you outsource this order?



## thutch15 (Sep 8, 2008)

I just got an order for 145 hats embroidery on front and back. I have a 1 head Toyota 9100, would you outsource this qty? Seems like it would take me a got 14 hours or more. Let me know what you would do and if the 14 hours on a 1 head machine is way off. Thanks Troy


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## thutch15 (Sep 8, 2008)

Also, the customer has not decided 100% on the qty, so if you would out source 140 what qty would you not outsource?

I also recalulated the job closer to 20 hrs for 3000 front and 2000 back... does 20 hrs sound correct on a 1 head machine. Thanks Troy


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## csw (Sep 3, 2009)

Yes, I would find a source to get that done and yes I would expect it to take much longer than the 14 hours you have allowed on the single head machine.


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## thutch15 (Sep 8, 2008)

csw said:


> Yes, I would find a source to get that done and yes I would expect it to take much longer than the 14 hours you have allowed on the single head machine.


Have any good leads on outsource embroidery?


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## lizziemaxine (Nov 14, 2007)

Depends on how much time you have to do the job.
I have a single head and have done that quantity and more myself, but I didn't try to do them all at once.
Spread out over a few days, you can do this yourself.
As to outsourcing, check to see if the cap manufacturer offers embroidery, and if they do, let them take care of it for you.
I use Otto Cap a lot and they do an excellent job on the embroidery.


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## SickPuppy (Aug 10, 2009)

Don't outsource it, I do orders of 200+ hats all the time. It will take you about 3 to 5 days because of the front and back embroidery, that is the same as 290 caps. For me a 145 cap order, front and back, comes to about $2000 profit.


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## Earl Smith (Sep 30, 2008)

I would agree, do it yourself. Unless you have lots of other work for the machine and the customer wants them ASAP. By the time you have found someone to do the job for you. Sorted out the digitising, caps etc, you could have done the job yourself. 
Earl.


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## thutch15 (Sep 8, 2008)

SickPuppy said:


> Don't outsource it, I do orders of 200+ hats all the time. It will take you about 3 to 5 days because of the front and back embroidery, that is the same as 290 caps. For me a 145 cap order, front and back, comes to about $2000 profit.


Hey sick puppy I need some help. I did $2000/145 caps = 13.79 Plus add the cap?

I was thinking I was going to charge somewhere around $5.04 for the front and $2.70 for the back. That puts me $6.05 per cap under what you were saying. Am I way off? I just dont get the hole pricing for embroidery...got my screen printing prices down to a T, but cannot figure out this embroidery.

THANKS AGAIN!


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## SickPuppy (Aug 10, 2009)

As a general rule for small designs, caps and left chest logos, I charge $8 each time I have to hoop an item. $5 for cap backs, sides, and a shirt sleeve. That price can be adjusted up or down depending on the size of the design.

If I were doing this order I would charge $13 just for hooping the caps front and rear, then I would add the cost of the cap, say $2.50 each, that brings the total to $15.50. I then add a 10% charge to the total cost to cover the embroidery materials. Now you are looking at $17.05 per cap plus shipping.

I just finished a single sew out for a customer that came to $275. I have charged as high as $900 for a single Item. For me I have to look at the project and determine how much time I am going to have to put into it. Pricing an embroidery job is not as easy as you might think.


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## thutch15 (Sep 8, 2008)

SickPuppy said:


> As a general rule for small designs, caps and left chest logos, I charge $8 each time I have to hoop an item. $5 for cap backs, sides, and a shirt sleeve. That price can be adjusted up or down depending on the size of the design.
> 
> If I were doing this order I would charge $13 just for hooping the caps front and rear, then I would add the cost of the cap, say $2.50 each, that brings the total to $15.50. I then add a 10% charge to the total cost to cover the embroidery materials. Now you are looking at $17.05 per cap plus shipping.
> 
> Keep in mind that I do not charge setup fees or digitizing fees.


It has been crazy seeing the wide variety of pricing structures for embroidery. Two more questions:
Would you price it that way if it was 25 hats and 150 hats?
Do you mark up the hat or in the example $2.50 is just what it cost you? 

Thanks for the help.


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## SickPuppy (Aug 10, 2009)

What I do to cover the cost of caps or shirts is calculate the cost of the item plus shipping then add in 10% to cover mistakes.

The only time I adjust my pricing is if the customer only wants 1 or 2 caps and I don't have them in stock. That will increase the price or if the customer orders 50 or more they get a discount.

You need to have a formula for calculating your cost. Some people even add labor cost by the hour into the project. You just have to find a solution that works for you and your customers.


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## thutch15 (Sep 8, 2008)

SickPuppy said:


> What I do to cover the cost of caps or shirts is calculate the cost of the item plus shipping then add in 10% to cover mistakes.
> 
> The only time I adjust my pricing is if the customer only wants 1 or 2 caps and I don't have them in stock. That will increase the price or if the customer orders 50 or more they get a discount.
> 
> You need to have a formula for calculating your cost. Some people even add labor cost by the hour into the project. You just have to find a solution that works for you and your customers.


Yeah I understand...I just setup my printing price matrix so easy, but now I just cannot get my head around the embroidery.

Thanks for the help


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## SickPuppy (Aug 10, 2009)

There are programs that will help you setup your price structure.


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## thutch15 (Sep 8, 2008)

SickPuppy said:


> There are programs that will help you setup your price structure.


Any names that you know of?


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## Liberty (Jul 18, 2006)

Just to add a little to the conversation... here's how we decide what goes on what machine.

Anything 1 piece to 5 pieces goes on the single head
anything 6 piece to 23 pieces goes on the two head
anything 24+ goes on the eight head.
Very few exceptions. we can hoop eight pieces in the time a 4000 stich design runs. The hat backs go even faster using the clamping systems.

Your entire job is out the door in about 6 hours.

On top of that, we can get 144 totally custom caps with up to 20000 stitches in up to 6 locations including the digitizing for less than $7 net and they are in my hands in about 2 weeks. And that includes flat panel embroidery on the visors, on the straps etc. I'd prefer to sell them, take the profits and move on.

Years ago we took the same approach, what else do we have to do, might as well run humdreds on the single head. No more! What else are we going to do? Lets see, market the business, sleep in, take a day off, play with the grandkids....


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## csw (Sep 3, 2009)

Have to give Sick Puppy props for being an excellent sales man. Those are great margins and good work. Some folks have the knack. 

If your aren't able to sell jobs at almost twice the going rate then I reccomend you find a large embroidery shop in your area and develop a relationship with them. Send them good jobs and they will give you favorable pricing. I checked the price guide for my vendor and the cost to me to embroider the caps you describe would be just under $600. Using the numbers from Sick Puppy's post The option becomes work (3-5 days) and generate $2,000 or broker this job take $1400 and still have 3 - 5 days of production time available. 

Just quoted a similar job for 150 caps with a single W embroidered on the front and a league sponsor name on the side. We quoted under $10 and when I checked on the job of the four written quotes the client showed me were second from the highest with none of them over $10 per cap. Assuming you will be working in this more competitive price enviornement your options become sell the job at $17+ per cap, Provide your customer a competitive quote and either work for $10 - $15 per hour or broker the job to a production facility and make $1 or $2 per cap on the sale. Really hate to be a "Fun-Sucker" but it is really hard to compete for long run jobs with a single head machine. I have a four head and I would broker that run. The shop I send long run work to uses a 15 head baruden and a six head bother.


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## Earl Smith (Sep 30, 2008)

Another comment I will make about working with a single head machine. 
You will spend so long doing relatively small amounts. Keeps you busy but only small profits come in. What it stops you doing, and I think Liberty touched on this, is getting out and finding new customers. Sometimes you do have better things to do rather than slogging away on the machine. Get out there, find more work and then invest in a multi head machine(s). Then there is no need to sub it out. 
Earl


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## LUV DEM TIGERS (Jul 25, 2008)

If you have the time to do yourself, do it. It is more value added. If you are just "sitting around" you are paying yourself the amount instead of cutting a check to someone else.


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## lizziemaxine (Nov 14, 2007)

Earl Smith said:


> Another comment I will make about working with a single head machine.
> You will spend so long doing relatively small amounts. Keeps you busy but only small profits come in.
> Earl


I don't know about the rest of you, but I make a really good profit with my single head machine. Smaller amounts - higher price per piece - larger profit for me.


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## FredericDesign (Apr 28, 2008)

lizziemaxine said:


> I don't know about the rest of you, but I make a really good profit with my single head machine. Smaller amounts - higher price per piece - larger profit for me.


 I totally agree with Jane. I'm probably never going to get rich, but I'm doing just fine with my single head machine.


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## thutch15 (Sep 8, 2008)

I am projecting that I will make in the $30-$35 per hour range on this job. I understand that others make more, but that projects out to $72,000 a year for a side project (have full time job). So I can live with that until I can by more heads.


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## Earl Smith (Sep 30, 2008)

I agree with you lizziemaxine I make good money from my single head too. The problem is that if you dont stand back , out source some jobs, and spend this time promoting your business you will not have future work coming in the door. 
Dont give too much work away, just enough to free up half a day, once a week to advertise yourself. 
Just my thoughts.
Earl.


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## SickPuppy (Aug 10, 2009)

I make good money at my embroidery business with a single head machine.

What you have to do is differentiate your company from the others. Basically there are only three ways to do that, with price, with quality, and with customer service.

When competing with multi head embroidery shops it is hard to cut their prices on large jobs.
So you have to concentrate on quality and service.

The customers I have pay a little more but they keep coming back.


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## Liberty (Jul 18, 2006)

Every time I hear the price-quality-service arguement I could scream. In todays marketplace, you absolutely positively must have all three just to survive and it makes no difference what size shop or machine you have.

The only fact that matters in these arguements is that there are efficienies of scale that give the multihead shop a tremendous advantage on the larger jobs. Nothing else should come into play. Don't think for one second that a multihead shops is in any way inferior in quality or service. Some are, of course, but the exact same arguement can be made with regards to single head shops - some of the worst embroidery I've seen came off of single head machines.



SickPuppy said:


> What you have to do is differentiate your company from the others. Basically there are only three ways to do that, with price, with quality, and with customer service.
> 
> When competing with multi head embroidery shops it is hard to cut their prices on large jobs.
> So you have to concentrate on quality and service.
> ...


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## maddog (Jun 15, 2009)

this is a great thread.
Thanks all!


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## Earl Smith (Sep 30, 2008)

Liberty said:


> Every time I hear the price-quality-service arguement I could scream. In todays marketplace, you absolutely positively must have all three just to survive and it makes no difference what size shop or machine you have.
> 
> The only fact that matters in these arguements is that there are efficienies of scale that give the multihead shop a tremendous advantage on the larger jobs. Nothing else should come into play. Don't think for one second that a multihead shops is in any way inferior in quality or service. Some are, of course, but the exact same arguement can be made with regards to single head shops - some of the worst embroidery I've seen came off of single head machines.


A good point Liberty. The best Embroidery I have ever seen comes from my competition in town with over 60 heads. 
What is the advantage of a single head shop over a multi head? My competition will do the same as me, fast, friendly and helpful. They have workers on their multi heads and one on their single head. Cant beat them on speed or quality. The only advantage I have is that I am more accessable on a busy main road. I try to be friendly, helpful (samples are never a problem) and as prompt as possible with my work. 
Earl


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## thutch15 (Sep 8, 2008)

Earl Smith said:


> A good point Liberty. The best Embroidery I have ever seen comes from my competition in town with over 60 heads.
> What is the advantage of a single head shop over a multi head? My competition will do the same as me, fast, friendly and helpful. They have workers on their multi heads and one on their single head. Cant beat them on speed or quality. The only advantage I have is that I am more accessable on a busy main road. I try to be friendly, helpful (samples are never a problem) and as prompt as possible with my work.
> Earl


In my case I am the only one in town!


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