# Few Questions about Dye Sub



## bangertees (Sep 22, 2007)

I have been doing heat transfers for a while now and one day accidently bought dye sub transfers. I haven't used them because I don't know how. I know that i need Dye Sub Ink , Poly shirts and the dye sub paper. What really is the difference? Does the paper transfer with the dye sub like it does with the Heat transfers therefore on dark shirts you would have the white background if you didn't cut it out detailed? I don't get the difference. Thanks


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## D.Evo. (Mar 31, 2006)

Hi and welcome to the forums!

The main difference, I suppose, is that dye sublimation actually DYES the design into the fabric, so it's permanent and will not peel, crack or fade. 

While the design from heat transfer "sits on top" of the fabric and you can feel it, dye-sublimated design becomes part of the fabric itself and you can't detect it by touch, so-called "no hand".

There is no "window" left by paper, only the dye transfers onto the fabric.

You can not use dark fabrics for sublimation.

To acheive best results 100% polyester is recommended, though some people use cotton blends with pre-treatment.

Hope this helps.


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## plan b (Feb 21, 2007)

Hi, I want to add a little to what Tania said and that is although you cannot use dark shirts there are a nice array of different colors in the market today, most you will see is lighter colors of the pastel range which in my opinion are very nice, also the brilliance in colors achieved by sublimation are outstanding,, its a bit more expensive to get set up to due sublimation but the end results are well worth the expense,, just my 2 cents,,

R.


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## NicMartel (Sep 13, 2007)

how does one go about pretreating to do sublimation on dark/black graments?

I hear that without a pretreatment machine, it is not a good idea!

can you comment and elaborate as to what machine is needed or if there is a way to pretreat without creating an awful mess!!!

can sublimation be done Laser based? or are the sublimation inks stricktly inkjet!


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## mystysue (Aug 27, 2006)

The pretreat that they are talking about is to do 50/50 shirts or cotton shirts.. not dark shirts..


As to dyesub with laser.. that is the process i use.. I have an okidata 5200 laser printer with dye sub toner..

I am very happy with my machine.. There is also a white toner for my type of machine that i have to do dark shirts and dark substrates.. but It has quite a learning curve and I just havnt had the time to fiddle with it to see how it works or recomend it to anyone.


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## Dingbat (Jun 12, 2007)

Dye sublimation describes the process of a material (ink) that goes from a solid state, directly to a gas, without becoming a liquid first. Applied heat causes the reaction. Sublimation ink is printed onto a special non absorbing sublimation paper. Epson printers are the most common for this task as they use a piezo-electric process to spray the ink, unlike HP printers which use heat (heat at this point destroys the process). Your image is then pressed onto a special substrate (polyester) which has a porous surface. The heat causes the pores to open, the ink becomes a gas, filling the pores. The material cools, closing the pores making the ink part of the material. 

The items you press sublimation pictures to, must either be coated with a special sublimation substrate, (mugs, tiles, wood, etc) or be a material that will accept and retain the ink, (poly, plastic, etc.).

Hope this helps!


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## NicMartel (Sep 13, 2007)

Dingbat and sue,

I am trying to get the idea ... but still some gaps...

sue are u saying the pretreatment will not work on dark garments?
...and I suspect it woudl adhere, just that the whites will not exist...

also sue, I am interested in the white ink feature you bring up, can you get me information so I may research that. If white ink, it implies one is printing on dark garments... I am about to purchase my equipment and will end up with a C88+ inkjet with Sublijet for my lights... and it sounds that I could do both on your type setup and Laser at that... ?

DingBat... are u saying that there is not a substrate(used in the sense of 'coating') for the natural fabrics/cotton as exist for cups, etc...? ...and my question earlier was how to spray that(pretreatment?) on accurately... many say it is not possible without being messy or uneven and as a result get inconsitent runs, if not unacceptable.
...is not a machine is needed?

sue


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## NicMartel (Sep 13, 2007)

ok I found the white toner info... for the okidata... but the yahoo group is reserved for those who have bought the systm ???? why hide!!!! is it another false promise? why not make the info available to potential newcomers.....???? are they afraid... you will not buy if you see the truth in the forum????


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## mystysue (Aug 27, 2006)

Nic i got your PM and will call this afternoon.. but to answer the questions you brought up here.. I will try here to do that.. ..
First off about the yahoo group.. It is not a group that was founded by the maker of the toner.. Nor does he even go there.. Its just a few of us that have the system.. that compair notes.. Most of it has to do with times temps and differant things we have tried .. Like using the white toner on hard surfaces like glass, acrylic etc.. .. and as most of the people in the group are as busy as myself in our work.. its not posted on very often.. Its actually very common for there to be closed forums for users of differant systems.. a prime example is the roland forum that you actually have to enter the serial number of your roland machine to be able to access the forum..

But as to the other question.. I have 3 differant pretreatments.. One is for doing the dyesub on light colored shirts.. that is the one i have used.. I also have 2 differant pretreats for dark shirts with the white toner.. one is a thin solution that can be sprayed on the shirt or rolled on the transfer with a roller.. the other is a goopy looking stuff that you roll on the transfer.. 
Where i have fooled around a bit and done a few dark substrates with the toner.. (tile, metal etc) I have not really had the time to even try out the shirts.. My shop is a sign shop and veryyyyyyy busy.. after working on my feet for 10 hours or so making signs.. I seem to have little engery left for the learning curve and the experimenting required to do the shirts.. I will get around to it.. Im actually hoping to have some time this weekend coming up.. as i will have 3 days of the shop closed and me alone there lol..
I really have not talked to anyone.. even the yahoo group to find out what their results are with shirts.. I know people are having good luck with hard surfaces and water slide decals using the system..

So would i recomend the white toner system.. I donno.. even tho i have had the system for 8 or more months Ive not had the time to find out.. And if i can get some time to fiddle with it i will surely post the results..

as the the okidata system and toner that i used for light colored shirts.. I love my machine and the results i can get on the 50/50 shirts.. It has more than paid for itself.. and the cost is alot less than than the inkjet subtoner.. 

as for spraying the pretreatment .. I really dont have a problem with ding it accurately.. I have a electric run hvlp sprayer that i got from harbor freight .. It is the one that normally cost a bit over a hundred and i got it for about 60.00.. the process i use is this.. I pre heat the shirts.. then take them in the other room to spray.. i do a quick spray (the hvlp sprayer has a very fine mist..) There really isnt much over spray or mist but my heat press is in the same room as my versacamm that is a 19,000 dollar machine and i really dont wanna take any chances.. I do know alot of people spray right at their heat presses.. just not me..

I spray the general area that the transfer will be then take back to the heat press and press the transfer.. while that is cooking.. i go spray the next shirt.. and so on and so on.. 
The spray is light enuff that it does not discolor the shirt at all.. ..if there is any scorching after i press i use a solution of half water half hyrdrogene proxide and spray and do a quick press. 

The shirts when done will have a very light feel almost like they have been ironed with spray starch but it is very light and goes away in the first wash..

any more questions i will gladly answer what i can.. and Nic ill try to give you a call this afternoon evening.. and see if i can help somemore..


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## charles95405 (Feb 1, 2007)

You cannot sublimate dark garments period...There are some pastel polyester from www.vaporapparel that will do nicely. I have done sublimation for years and love it when done correctly. If I want colored garments will will always use DTG, screenprint or plastisol. Right now there is not an opaque paper I like. Maybe the new iron all..time will tell


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## NicMartel (Sep 13, 2007)

Charles!

*I CAN PROVE YOU WRONNNNNNNG!!!*

*IT'S A MIRRRRRRACLE!!!*

*I have tracked the claims...*

*April's fool!*, that should attract attention to my posting! lol
AS USUAL CHARLES YOU ARE ENTIRELY CORRECT... Printing on dark is DTG, screen, or plastisol... maybe the New Ironall... the 2 step ImageClip on the far outside edge... that patch-like-look-and-feel of the Imageclip is... ummm huhhh! yeah!! ...ok!

They are people talking too fast... no proof no testing... etc...
When I drilled down a bit further I came up empty, PERIOD...

Those claims are just people *echoing* the miracle without doing their home-work... or failing when attempting to prove their *echo*... and forgetting to update their web sites and retract the claims...

No need to even rehash this further... it is a waste of time for all.
I am closing this thread as far as my time is concerned...

As usual, you nailed it. Thank you.


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## mystysue (Aug 27, 2006)

NicMartel said:


> Charles!
> 
> 
> They are people talking too fast... no proof no testing... etc...
> ...


 
Ok.. I have to say.. Im very offended with your post.. NIc.. as i spent time out of my day to try to help..and even placed a long distance call this AM and got your answering machine.. You didnt even comment on what i had to say.. and in as much called me a lier or just an echo.. .. aww well live and learn.. I will not be wasting any of my time.!!!!! I have the system, it does print white ink.. (it is like an white that becomes like the underbase that you dyesub to.


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## NicMartel (Sep 13, 2007)

Sue... no offense meant...

I apologize if I made you feel offended... not my intent.

Please understand that I am not referring to your specific case in my comments, I have many other leads in more than one forum... I am speaking generally.

I also do not mix feelings in my evaluations. I take more like a matter-of-fact approach, treating the subject not the person.

So far the results have been rather dim... and you stick out as an exception? I would like for you to prove that. I think if I may speak for others, we all would.

I stayed glued to my desk this afternoon to make sure not to miss your call(still waiting). If you had left a number on your first message to my answering service, I would have called you myself.

I am interested in hearing it str8 from you, I have many questions and perhaps some information to share that might be helpful to you as well.

So far I stand by my comments, because every time I encountered such promises, it turned out to be disappointing. Do not lose the oportunity to prove my streak has been a bad luck run... and indeed the answer is out there.

So feel free to call me still, I am easy to talk to.
I just don't mince my words... I have been burnt by hype too much to do too much tiptoeing... I aim to cut thru the chase and get fast accurate solid answers.

I saw your pictures but they 'move a lot' LOL... it was hard to assess quality... but it did not look bad... The reason I have not commented on your work is that I have been pulled left and right today... and I have not been able to do things in the best order possible...

My intent is more to weed out the rumor mongers
and watch those who are solid stay in the game.

Again, I am easy to talk to... you cannot burn my ears... I may burn yours.
all in good fun Sue... no animosity here(not implying you might be emanating animosity yourself, just saying none from my side).


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## Dingbat (Jun 12, 2007)

Nic:

With shirts, the polyester is the substrate. For example, Hanes Soft'ink t-shirts are 100% cotton with a polyester outer shell. The poly is ideal for sublimation. Another popular clothing line would be Vapor Wear. Their t-shirts and polos are 100% poly. I order mugs, can wraps, shirts, tiles, plastics and metals from several vendors who sell sublimation-ready materials. I have been tempted to purchase some of the do-it-yourself spray coatings, but more for wood based products like plaques and gift box tops.


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## NicMartel (Sep 13, 2007)

Ed,

Yes you have hit on the 2 garment brands that I am aware of... I thought I could use the word substrate generically... and I corrected that in red later... but my question was directed to the non-polyester fabrics... as obvioulsy the 100% polyesters do not need a coating... but any mix of Cotton(natural fabric) does! 

I have now seen others mention the coating. mistysue seems to have found one that answers the problems discussed in the forums... but I also see others who say no spray coating is any good...

so I am waiting on clues to see who is right... sometimes the problem is the operator, if applied properly anyhting works as designed... but the reviews on that are so negative, I am not at all confident yet.

Sue said she would call me, perhaps I will learn something and be able to put this issue behind me... I am of course speaking in terms of my own scenario as I see that no blanket solutions exist!

...and incidentally, I have a need to print on wood as well, not much just one item... it is good to know it can be done on wood, as I was told that for wood, one had to go screen ! (...it can get frustrating...)

Thank you for the posting.


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## Dingbat (Jun 12, 2007)

Keep in mind that any spray-on coating does not make the cotton able to hold the sublimation ink. It is nothing more a bonding agent that holds the image and sticks to the cotton surface. How would that be any different than a fine quality heat press image? There would still be a "feel" to the spray and the eventual wear as the agent deteriorates. I think the ultimate goal would be to convince other manufacturers to add poly panels to their shirts and uniforms. I'd like to find a vendor who would add a polyester pocket to a series of polos or cotton casual shirts. That would be a great place for logos.


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## NicMartel (Sep 13, 2007)

Ed,

I am not near up to par on this stuff yet... your comment, plugs another gap in my meager understanding.
...


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## NicMartel (Sep 13, 2007)

Ed,

an after-thought... would not the benefit be that we are looking at a sublimation which should have superior IMAGE quality than an ink transfer?
...I cannot keep all of this stuff str8 in my head yet... I may be off-mark?


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## mystysue (Aug 27, 2006)

As i have stated a few times.. the advantage is the colors of sublimation on a cotton or cotton poly shirt.. It just give me the oppotunity to offer differant types of shirts.. than just poly. A prime example is some shirts i did for sturgis.. the customer wanted spagetti strap womens tank tops and I only had a very stort time to find them and get them done for this customer. I was able to get advil tanks.. for a good price.. and get them done..
There is a very fine slight hand feel to the shirts.. that most of the time the customer wouldnt even notice.. before its washed.. that disappears completely on first wash..
so the answer would be .. with the fine mist you get with an hvlp sprayer you do not get a heavy film.. you have a slight feel to it that almost feels like it has been ironed with a very slight spray starch..


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## NicMartel (Sep 13, 2007)

ok susan... your explanation concurs with one account I have read that stated: 

"_...I would not use it because I do not want to have to explain to each customer that the starch feel will disappear after first wash..._"

That said, by inferance I am assuming you do not wash prior to sale... thus you explain to each customer or have a sign near the displayed shirts? (...keeping in mind that one may be selling batches to a reseller, or retailing direct!)

On the other hand, would it be feasable to wash all shirts once, before they are sold? Would that be too much of a problem? Obviously one would rather have each customer wash their own rather than the seller having to wash then all!
Should a seller/retailer ever wash a garment prior to sale?

...and can we rest solid that indeed the wash fastness truly is good? and that the complaints of colors washing out within 10 to 15 washes are due to improper execution of the coating application? (on any 100% cotton shirt... ? no concern that some shirts are woven differently than others, all assumed to be safe?) ...and if one particular style fails it will be more rare than not?

...and perhaps we can 'demythify' the general consensus that sublimation is only possible on 100% synthetic fabrics and therefore say the method does produce a truly acceptable garment that does not equal the result on synthetic fabrics but rivals it successfuly? very good hand, wash fastness, no ghost!

and in your assesment, if you compare the same design on a 100% poly shirt and a 100% cotton one... if we are to attempt to quantify the all around performance of one against the other, what is your estimated ratio(percentage)...
*Example*: the cotton will give a performance of 90% of that of the poly.
This is not a precise measurement of course only to convey your personal feeling, and you are not held to it... just a way for me to gage it more aptly.

wooo... I am winded... but ready to try it, when I get my equipment.


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## mystysue (Aug 27, 2006)

Ok.. the feeling/ hand on the shirt is so minimal i have yet have had to explain anything to a customer.. I was stating that i wouldnt want to have to do that and I am happy with the fact that it has never been a concern.

I dont dyesub on polyester.. i never have.. .. my market area and customers are not really interested in buying poly shirts.. (calif is very much a cotton type of area) .. Its really not a cost thing with the customers as it is they just dont like poly much.. ..

+++Nic you stated "and in your assesment, if you compare the same design on a 100% poly shirt and a 100% cotton one... if we are to attempt to quantify the all around performance of one against the other, what is your estimated ratio(percentage)...
*Example*: the cotton will give a performance of 90% of that of the poly.
This is not a precise measurement of course only to convey your personal feeling, and you are not held to it... just a way for me to gage it more aptly."

as i have stated i dont use poly shirts ever.. so i can not compare.. i just know it works for me.. (and several other people) will it work for you or others.. I donno.. It all depends on on the preparation of the shirts.. and many factors.. I do know and have stated.. that i have customer that have bought work shirts. .and come back for more.. after using them for months.. so I must be doing something right.. lol...


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## mystysue (Aug 27, 2006)

oo and as for the type of shirts.. ive done a few differant brands and have not come across any that it iddnt work on.. but granted ive only tried 4 or 5 differant brands.. not everything out there.. .. Ive also used it on cotton aprons... and it worked fine


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## Dingbat (Jun 12, 2007)

Susan:

Try the Hanes Soft'ink t-shrits. 100% cotton with a poly shell. My customers love the soft cotton feel of these shirts and the bright graphics that are possible.


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## NicMartel (Sep 13, 2007)

thank you both... I have had to really drill to 'feel' the message I wanted conveyed to me thru this bodylanguageless cyber world... and combined with answers I got from many others... It is quite clear to me now... both options mentioned above this posting have their value... given that one is on the low end of cost and the other on the high end. Both have been on my list for a while now and will remain lest my experience with either changes that... so far so good. Thank you.


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## mystysue (Aug 27, 2006)

Dingbat.. I hear what you are saying.. but .. Im happy with the colors i get.. plus the selection of styles i can pick from.. not having to stick with poly shirts.. 
plus if i am am doing say 20 shirts for a plumbing company with thier logo.. being able to use gildan 50/50 shirts.. or the hanes 50/50 shirts does help to keep my cost and in turn the customers cost down..


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## lordpyro (May 1, 2007)

mystysue said:


> Dingbat.. I hear what you are saying.. but .. Im happy with the colors i get.. plus the selection of styles i can pick from.. not having to stick with poly shirts..
> plus if i am am doing say 20 shirts for a plumbing company with thier logo.. being able to use gildan 50/50 shirts.. or the hanes 50/50 shirts does help to keep my cost and in turn the customers cost down..


I worked with a company a long time ago and they printed a design of mine on Black and Navy tees..I thought it was either DTG or sub or something because it was so soft as if it was part of the fabric itself...

you guys are wrong...it can be done...unfortunately I cant get in touch with the guys who did it for some reason, but it can be done. I tried heat pressing and its not the same..nothing is wrong with heat pressing of course but it was softer than that..it felt like it was part of the shirt and its held up nicely in the wash ..it becomes slightly faded after a year or so but it makes it look vintage.

If I ever get in touch with this guy I will let you know. mainly because its becoming a mantra that 'you can't do this with dark colors' and I know it can be done because I had it done to my shirts and i am seeking it again because there isn't anything like it.


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## Solmu (Aug 15, 2005)

lordpyro said:


> you guys are wrong...it can be done... [...] its becoming a mantra that 'you can't do this with dark colors' and I know it can be done because I had it done to my shirts and i am seeking it again because there isn't anything like it.


If you don't know how it was done, how do you know it was done with a heat press?


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## lordpyro (May 1, 2007)

Solmu said:


> If you don't know how it was done, how do you know it was done with a heat press?


that is a great question...it just seemed really really soft...

you know how you can feel the design on your chest when you do 
a heat press? You didn't feel it with this...

I am the first to admit that I am assuming and potentially making an ***
of myself with my earlier declaration... I am a student and trying to learn as much as I can!!!

so the ultimate question is - is it possible to use a heat press and make a product so soft that it
doesn't feel like a heat press?


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## NicMartel (Sep 13, 2007)

well yeah! lordpyro...

- sublimation(not over a precoat, poly(...) only)
- DTG
- raw fabric industrial dyeing(no one-offs here, lol).


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