# using vinyl on silk screen



## chonkymonky (Apr 1, 2007)

hello amigos. hope you're all doing well. 

i have a question about something that popped into my mind this morning. i was wondering if anyone here has ever tried using a vinyl cutout on a screen in the place of emulsion. 

is this something that can even be done? this is what i had in mind: a design could be cut out on a vinyl cutter..the vinyl could then be weeded and then applied on to the screen on the flat side. this way the squegee will not touch the vinyl..thus avoiding the vinyl from moving or peeling. i figure a high count screen (like 320) could be used to give the vinly more area to stick to. 

would the plastisol ink cause the adhesive on the vinyl to not stick properly?

if this works, i could avoid all the mess of applying the emulsion, washing out the design, waiting for it to dry and then cleaning afterwards. especially if all i want is a couple of tees.

i will be purchasing a vinyl cutter soon and just wanted to know if this is something that has ever been tried..and if i should even waste my time with it.

any feedback on the subject would be greatly appreciated. thanks. 

Miguel


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## Spot_Worker (Oct 22, 2008)

....Stuff like this how work-arounds, and new ways happen. 2 things, 1: would the vinyl leave a sticky film after. 2: would the area that is closed to non printing handle the pressure, and not come off in the middle of the job. Still Thinking.


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## veedub3 (Mar 29, 2007)

Check out this thread on TSF

http://www.t-shirtforums.com/screen-printing/t56556.html#post335661

Veedub3


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## chonkymonky (Apr 1, 2007)

thanks veedub..thats exactly the info i was looking for.


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## adawg2252 (Dec 12, 2007)

There are also a number of videos on youtube where people have tried this. It seems that it's only effective on low qty jobs because like the above said, eventually the pressure peels the vinyl off the screen.


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## chonkymonky (Apr 1, 2007)

yeah i figured the adhesive on the vinyl would eventually start to soften and the vinyl would start to peel off. it's perfect for short runs..which is what i had in mind. 

i've had to turn away too many clients asking for a small number of dark tees with light colored design because it just wasnt worth the effort of setting up screens for only a few tees. 

i'm just wondering if the vinyl adhesive is easy to remove from the screen. 

thanks again for the info.

hey andrew..would you happen to have a link to these videos you speak of? i searched on youtube and could not find anything on the subject. thnks.


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## shadow Apparel (Oct 14, 2008)

I have used contact paper befor but after 4 of 5 prints you have to start over again. I also work with bleach resist so I have been wondering slightly the same thin however in place of vinyl i wish to use .010 thick stainless still and have a water jet cut the stencil out that way i can use my stainless steel template for screenprints or bleach resist.Any thoughts?


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## fadzuli (Jul 8, 2008)

actually wat i did was to get the heat transfer vinyls and have it pressed on the mesh. after which have it done up on the wooden/alu frame. once done then jus remove the mesh for you to keep or dispose of. 

so far so gd but ive yet to test if for long runs. in addition, vinyls are as detailed as your vinyl can cut. im not sure if you can do halftones, fine prints, etc with vinyl cutters.


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## adawg2252 (Dec 12, 2007)

chonkymonky said:


> hey andrew..would you happen to have a link to these videos you speak of? i searched on youtube and could not find anything on the subject. thnks.


This was the specific video I was talking about. He more or less does exactly what you're trying to do. He cuts the vinyl out and uses it right to the screen for printing t-shirts.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXmmXkvh4pI[/media]

He goes through it step by step. Sorry it took me so long to post back, I was trying to find the link. It's not titled accurately enough but I did eventually find it.

Enjoy!


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## Spot_Worker (Oct 22, 2008)

....I see. You saw the odd way he was printing, cool though. The yellow screen, that like what a 305 mesh or so. I saw some years ago emulsion that came on a backing. The backing was clear. You mist the screen with water and place the emulsion on it.You would rub it down like the vinyl, and peel the backing let dry.


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## chonkymonky (Apr 1, 2007)

ok... i did some more reading on the subject in a different thread here in TSF. 

apparently the thickness of the vinyl seems to be an issue since its thicker than a layer of emulsion. so if you have the vinyl pasted on the side of the screen that makes contact with the tee, you will get a thick layer of ink on the t-shirt. i dont know much about vinyl so im not sure if you can get it any thinner. if you have the design pasted on the squegee side..then you will have issues with designs that have "floating" pieces. since they have little adhesive holding them..the squeegee will eventually start to move them around. im sure peeling edges would also be a problem if you have the vinyl on the squeegee side. 

this is still something i want to try for myself. once i get my vinyl cutter im gonna have a go at it. thnks again to you all for all the help.

Miguel


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## adawg2252 (Dec 12, 2007)

Spot_Worker said:


> ....I see. You saw the odd way he was printing, cool though. The yellow screen, that like what a 305 mesh or so. I saw some years ago emulsion that came on a backing. The backing was clear. You mist the screen with water and place the emulsion on it.You would rub it down like the vinyl, and peel the backing let dry.


It could have been a 305 or a 280, as those generally come yellow, but you can get as low as 125 with yellow mesh. It just depends on your supplier.

As far as the emulsion with the backing, that's Capillary Film. It's a thin layer of emulsion with a backing sheet. You do cut it out and apply it to the screen. Some apply with water, some with special degreasers, some can be coated with liquid emulsion (specific to brand and product lines) to apply them. You pull the backing sheet after application and expose it like a regular coated screen.

Pros: -consistent thickness across the screen
-easy to apply
-comes in variety of thicknesses and styles
-good shelf life
-very little waste (cut only what you need)

Cons: -learning curve for application can be tough
-expensive
-requires more expensive exposure equipment (needs more light)


As far as the vinyl thickness goes, that correlates directly to the capillary film in the same way. The thicker the film, the more ink deposit you will get. The thinner it is, the less ink deposit. That's how you get "high-density" prints. Thick film.

liquid emulsion would only apply a thin coat, and the more coats you add would make it thicker but it wouldn't be as consistent as a capillary film.

Just food for thought


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## Progeny (Jul 28, 2007)

I would imagine the thinnest would be the garment vinyl heatpressed onto the screen as it will be pressed into the mesh.


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## chonkymonky (Apr 1, 2007)

i know very little about vinyl..but i would'nt it be difficult to remove the vinyl from the screen if it is heat pressed on like lee mentioned? or is there a solvent of some kind that can remove the adhesive without damaging the screen?


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## Progeny (Jul 28, 2007)

I have never tried it but it would be fused to the screen so hard to remove, unless one of those sprays to remove vinyl from garments would take it off, probably too much hassle and I'm not sure what effect it would have on the screen.


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## ino (Jan 23, 2007)

I should think that the whole concept of heat pressing vinyl is for it never to come off the shirts.
I don't think heat pressing on a screen would be a smart thing to try.


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## fadzuli (Jul 8, 2008)

ive tried heatpressing vinyl on mesh before and it works like an emulsion. like i said in my previous post, you would have to replace the mesh completely when you're done and the image on the vinyl can only be as detailed as you can cut with your vinyl cutter. 

so depending on ur usage, for example you wan to keep the template for future use then imho heatpressed vinyl on mesh is a gd idea. coz all u have to do is jus replace the mesh on the frame. 

other than that it works very similar to emulsion.


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## treadhead (Jul 26, 2006)

Hmmmm..this could be a cost effective way to produce lower volume (less than a couple dozen) shirts with simple designs. Perhaps using heatpress vinyl for say up to 3 to 6 shirts then use the vinyl as a template from that point up to 24 shirts then get into emulstion beyond that. 

I'd have to run some numbers but this may end up being cheaper than using thermoflex (at about $2.50 to $3.00 per linear foot) above 3 to 6 shirts and cheaper than trying to to the "full gambut" of emulsion, film, etc.

Something I'll have to give some more thought to....


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## chonkymonky (Apr 1, 2007)

is replacing the mesh that easy a pocess that you would rather do it than washing out the emulsion? dont you need special tools and glue? plus time for the glue to dry?


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## fadzuli (Jul 8, 2008)

well if you have the tools then its quite fast. such as the frame, gun tacker, masking tape or glue, lots of patience, training and wathing youtube videos. hehe.


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## mgarcia16 (Dec 31, 2007)

What about if you use roller frames & you replace the mesh every time you heat press vinyl on it? I'm sure it is not cost effective but its an idea.


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## fadzuli (Jul 8, 2008)

yeah i thought of that as well. but the problem that i forsee is the ability of the roller to maintain the tautness of the mesh. so if you can lock it in place without sagging the mesh overtime, perhaps it'll work.

plus depending on the type of roller frame that you are talking about, it might be a bit difficult to get it clamped to the station. 

jus my 2 cents.


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## Morals Fiber (Nov 11, 2008)

I use vinyl on the screen if I'm in a rush and the design isn't too intricate. I've never had a problem with peeling, bleeding, etc. If you leave the screen up till the following day though, the vinyl will shrivel up and fall off. I use whatever mesh count would be good for the job. ( 110, 156 ) Different color vinyls react differently too.


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## chonkymonky (Apr 1, 2007)

hey shacho,...what kind of vinyl do you use? how thick is it? which side do you apply the vinyl on?


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## Morals Fiber (Nov 11, 2008)

chonkymonky said:


> hey shacho,...what kind of vinyl do you use? how thick is it? which side do you apply the vinyl on?


I use Oracal. I usually use the white. Not sure which thickness. If you really want to know I can look in the office to see which one exactly. Don't really think it matters. I put it on the pallet side of the screen just like you said so that the squeegee doesn't pull away any of the tiny details.


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## chonkymonky (Apr 1, 2007)

thanks for the info. i cant wait to try it.


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## chonkymonky (Apr 1, 2007)

hey guys i just read some info that might interest you. I was on the USCutter forums when i came across a thread covering this very topic. 

a couple of guys mentioned using this method. although instead of heat pressing the vinyl to the mesh...they heat press it on curtain material, which is easily obtainable. this makes sense since the vinyl would stick much better to that material than to mesh thus holding up much longer and giving more prints. and as for the frames..they use Newton Retensionable frames. making it mucsh easier to go from one template to another using the same frame. 

what an awesome concept. now i can run small screen printed orders without the hassle of prepping the screen the normal way. im just wondering how the quality compares using the curtain material vs. mesh.


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## buggie pilot (Jul 16, 2008)

I have tried this a few times ... 10 prints at the most ... some good, some not so good. I used waterbased ink. must squeegie _with _sharp thin elements as not to peel them up, but works fine on larger objects and text. used 2mil vinyl (great way to get rid of odd color scraps) . I peeled vinyl off and washed screen right away ....seems fine


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## BigZsVinyl (Jan 26, 2009)

Hi everyone I am new to this forum. Actually I am not even in the silk screening industry at the current time. I am a vinyl sign shop. I am actually looking at using vinyl on silk screens to do corrugated plastic yard signs. I was wondering if anyone had done this using vinyl on silk screens? 

Also in relation to the whole do you put the vinyl on the top or bottom of the screen here is a suggestion / question. If you put the vinyl on the top of the screen why couldn't you either take another piece of mesh or maybe something like a piece of woman's pantie hose and stretch it over it and tape it down when you are taping the rest of the screen off to help protect the vinyl from the friction of the squeegee so that it doesn't move or pull away from the screen? With this you would not have to worry about the ink affecting the vinyl adhesive so much either. 

I do not have any of this equipment yet but am looking at making the investment and trying to figure out if it will work this way or not. If any of you think that this might help / work and try it please post the results when you get a chance I would be interested to see how it works. Thanks in advance.

Sincerely,

Big Z


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## MotoskinGraphix (Apr 28, 2006)

I use the Ulano knife cut film. cut on my cutter and chemically applied to the mesh.


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## BigZsVinyl (Jan 26, 2009)

MotoskinGraphix said:


> I use the Ulano knife cut film. cut on my cutter and chemically applied to the mesh.


Well I am currently a home based business who will probably be moving part or all of the business out of the house at some point this year. I am also expecting a child any day now so I am trying to keep the amount of chemicals we use in the house to a minimum. I appreciate the info though thanks.


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## midwaste (Apr 8, 2008)

I do this all the time for short run stuff. I just use regular sign vinyl, actually I think it's just cheapa$$ Shinerite gray because I have tons of it. Apply the vinyl to the squeegee side of the mesh and away you go. It is tricky to get the vinyl on the mesh, and you will have to place any islands manually. I haven't tried transfer tape to apply it because I am almost positive it wont work, although the vinyl sticks to the mesh fine. I was pretty worried about the squeegee pulling the islands off, but so far it has never happened.

I printed 40 sleeves with this method last week because they were basic block lettering and I had no reason to believe it wouldnt have done lots more. 

It is tricky to get the vinyl off, after repeated squeegeeing it gets stuck pretty good. However, it doesnt seem to leave any vinyl residue behind.

Heatpressing vinyl on mesh seems like a terrible idea..


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## ambitious (Oct 29, 2007)

midwaste said:


> I do this all the time for short run stuff. I just use regular sign vinyl, actually I think it's just cheapa$$ Shinerite gray because I have tons of it. Apply the vinyl to the squeegee side of the mesh and away you go. It is tricky to get the vinyl on the mesh, and you will have to place any islands manually. I haven't tried transfer tape to apply it because I am almost positive it wont work, although the vinyl sticks to the mesh fine. I was pretty worried about the squeegee pulling the islands off, but so far it has never happened.
> 
> I printed 40 sleeves with this method last week because they were basic block lettering and I had no reason to believe it wouldnt have done lots more.
> 
> ...


I agree with you on not using the heat press vinyl for this, i've used oracle 651 with good results, printed about 25 to 50 one color jobs with good results.


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## chonkymonky (Apr 1, 2007)

well i just got my vinyl cutter few days ago. did a few t-shirt jobs already. pretty nice machine indeed. 

im excited to try this method for silk screening. but instead of applying the vinyl to the mesh..ill be heat pressing the vinyl to curtain material and using that in the place of mesh on newman retensionable frames. if the frames are able to produce enough tension on the curtain material that the vinyl will be heat pressed on..then i see no problem printing up to a dozen shirts before having to retension the material and then printing another couple more depending how well its held up at that point.

ill post my results soon enough.


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## MotoskinGraphix (Apr 28, 2006)

BigZsVinyl said:


> Well I am currently a home based business who will probably be moving part or all of the business out of the house at some point this year. I am also expecting a child any day now so I am trying to keep the amount of chemicals we use in the house to a minimum. I appreciate the info though thanks.


I understand the no chemicals. I started with regular sign vinyl on screens but moved into the films rather quickly. You can register the film easy and its transparent. You can also do large runs without worrying if a point of vinyl will make another pass. The film is very thin and cuttable on a plotter.

You should at least check on you tube for videos using knife cut, amberlith or rubylith fims for screen printing.


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## ino (Jan 23, 2007)

Hi David,
Out of curiosity do Amberlith and Rubylith have an expiry period.
Thanks.


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## MotoskinGraphix (Apr 28, 2006)

ino said:


> Hi David,
> Out of curiosity do Amberlith and Rubylith have an expiry period.
> Thanks.


Not sure about that but I think everything has a time limit. I know you can buy it in sheets, pads or rolls. I purchase the knife cut film in rolls, cut and weed on the plotter and there you go.

Heatpressing vinyl on a screen is just simply stupid.


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## ino (Jan 23, 2007)

Thanks David, I suppose some prefer the vinyl because its more easily at hand.


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## MotoskinGraphix (Apr 28, 2006)

ino said:


> Thanks David, I suppose some prefer the vinyl because its more easily at hand.


A roll of vinyl or a roll of film both come from my sign supplier. They are both cut on a plotter and weeded by hand. One uses transfer tape for application and one uses sta-sharp adheasion fluid. One is good for short runs and the screens cant be saved for future use. One is good for short or long runs and the screens can be saved for future runs.

I wouldnt have mentioned the knife cut films if I hadnt already been down the vinyl road. I dont have an exposure system yet so I found this to be the best alternative to emulsion for making stencil screens. One drawback is that the film I use is basically for water based inks as it is applied with solvents and removed with solvents (laq. thinner). Just a suggestion.


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