# Discharge as an underbase



## Shecki (Jan 6, 2010)

I was curious....I'm about to start working with discharge and water based inks. I've been working with plastisol for about a year now, and want to learn how to work with those. 

My question is, I want to print a design with a discharge underbase...and then waterbased on top. I know I'm going to have to flash the dischare and print on top of that, but will it affect my color on top seeing as though flashing is not going to fully activate the discharge? It's just a white and black monochrome design going on a re shirt. Fine detail....probably going to print with a 230. 

Also, can I get away with useing Murakami's Aquasol HV without adding diazo to it? Maybe post harden it after washout? It's a short run of 12. If so....on a 1/1 coat....it a 2/1 coat....how long can you usually get away with useing an emulsion that isn't waterbased, without sacrificing a properly cured stencil? 

Thanks!


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## nation03 (Sep 2, 2008)

You can't print discharge through a 230 mesh. The highest mesh recommended is 156.


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## Gilligan (Dec 11, 2009)

I think he meant discharge for underbase only and then coming back with the higher mesh with waterbased ink.


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## Shecki (Jan 6, 2010)

Yes...I was going to print the dicharge with a 160....then black with a 230.


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## Shecki (Jan 6, 2010)

nation03 said:


> You can't print discharge through a 230 mesh. The highest mesh recommended is 156.


Great point....which leads me to another question. How do printers print with such high detail with discharge....if the highest mesh count you can use effectively is 150-160?


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## jepaul (Apr 26, 2009)

12 shirts is no problem with any emulsion I have used.

Why flash the under? Print the discharge and then the wb on top of that. Through oven as long as you can get it in there. 2 mins hopefully.


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## Shecki (Jan 6, 2010)

jepaul said:


> 12 shirts is no problem with any emulsion I have used.
> 
> Why flash the under? Print the discharge and then the wb on top of that. Through oven as long as you can get it in there. 2 mins hopefully.


 Thank for the response. How long do you usually do a run, before it starts to break down the emulsion? Yes, I'm going to turn the dryer temp and belt speed down, and cure it for a couple minutes at about 320*.


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## jepaul (Apr 26, 2009)

On printing with an auto around 36-45 but the pressures are higher. Manual should be a tad more than that. Remember though on the discharge the key is to have a ton of pressure so you PUSH the fluid into the garment. if discharged perfectly it will actually discharge through the shirts. If you use regular emulsion put tap on the underside of the screen where your squegee ends. This is the first part that breaks down because of the squegee edge. After printing have some tape on the top side of the screen as high as you can so it holds the discharge and doesn't rest on the emulsion. For the waterbased you need to imeediately flood after your print stroke to keep some in the screen to help with drying up. Have a bottle of spray water to just sprayin the wb screen to keep it wet.


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## Shecki (Jan 6, 2010)

Thanks man. I appreciate the info!


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## nation03 (Sep 2, 2008)

Shecki said:


> Great point....which leads me to another question. How do printers print with such high detail with discharge....if the highest mesh count you can use effectively is 150-160?


That's a good question. I read about discharge when I can but I also don't have any hands on experience with discharge yet. I've seen videos of amazing detail being achieved with discharge and I wasn't sure how it was done. Maybe higher mesh can be used on autos because you can crank the pressure up, but I'm really not sure.


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## snackdaddy185 (May 17, 2008)

nation03 said:


> You can't print discharge through a 230 mesh. The highest mesh recommended is 156.


Many printers on this forums print discharge using a 230 mesh. They add a wetting agent and a softner.


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## spreadingink (Feb 10, 2008)

Printing discharge through a 230 mesh is no big deal - we do it all of the time - to print a discharge base with water base colors on top there is no realy need to flash the underbase at all. It will cure in the dryer and have no ill effect water-so-ever on the waterbase inks printed on top. Of course you won't see the vibrancy of the print until is has been cured tho.

I would recommend doing your output at 45 line count as this will help to prevent moire on a 230 mesh and also allow the halftone size to be slightly larger which will help should have any halftones in the base.

Hope this helps.

Dave


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## Shecki (Jan 6, 2010)

spreadingink said:


> Printing discharge through a 230 mesh is no big deal - we do it all of the time - to print a discharge base with water base colors on top there is no realy need to flash the underbase at all. It will cure in the dryer and have no ill effect water-so-ever on the waterbase inks printed on top. Of course you won't see the vibrancy of the print until is has been cured tho.
> 
> I would recommend doing your output at 45 line count as this will help to prevent moire on a 230 mesh and also allow the halftone size to be slightly larger which will help should have any halftones in the base.
> 
> ...


Dave...thanks for the response. There won't be any halftones in the base. I was going to print a solid base of discharge, and print the black right on top of that. That was why I was concerned about printing the black right on top of it....with plastisol, it's something you wouldnt do without flashing. I wasn't sure if it was the same with waterbased as well. Thanks for the reply!


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## spreadingink (Feb 10, 2008)

Yes, we do it that way too depending on the art. It will work fine - no flash req'd.

Dave


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## Dan K (Nov 15, 2006)

Seems like most questions have been addressed already.

We print discharge through 230 mesh daily, we are experimenting pushing it through higher mesh screens.

When printing black water base on a red shirt, an under base is not necessary. In general, we don't print discharge under base then water base on top, we use the charged water base inks. This saves you time and screens and when you get it down will increase quality as well... Check with your ink manufacturer and get the recipe for mixing a discharge white.


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## spreadingink (Feb 10, 2008)

Hi Dan,

I would agree with most of your comments, but there are times when it is advantagous to do a discharge base with water base on top. Once mixed and agent added to the water base to make it a discharge ink the ink shelf life is very short - much more so than just a water base ink. If you are doing 10-11 colors (we have on more than one occassion) for a smaller run it can be more cost effective to burn the additional screen rather than put agent into all of the inks. 

Of course there is time and labor in anything and that is true in setup and screen costs, but also true in adding agent to 10 or 11 colors for a run that is only a 100 - 200 pcs long as well.

Just a consideration - your mileage may vary 

Dave


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## Shecki (Jan 6, 2010)

Dan...

Thanks for the reply. The design is black and white, so if I understand you correctly...you'd print the black and white as if you were blending any two colors together...rather than print a solid underneath and that black on top? And by "charged waterbased inks"...do you mean just a standard waterbased ink as opposed to a discharge ink?

I appreciate your input man. You guys do great work!

Thanks!


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## Dan K (Nov 15, 2006)

spreadingink said:


> I would agree with most of your comments, but there are times when it is advantagous to do a discharge base with water base on top. Once mixed and agent added to the water base to make it a discharge ink the ink shelf life is very short - much more so than just a water base ink. If you are doing 10-11 colors (we have on more than one occassion) for a smaller run it can be more cost effective to burn the additional screen rather than put agent into all of the inks.


What's up Dave?! I agree, and had not thought of it that way. The most colors we've printed is 10, but then again, a 10 color print on a 10 color press doesn't leave any room for an under base, however, we should try it for any less than that... Those charged inks also get stinkier the longer they sit around...


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## spreadingink (Feb 10, 2008)

Hi Dan,

Just trying to keep my head above water.... and only somewhat succesfully at that! Rutlands new bases (we have been testing them and like them) smell like bubble gum!!! No kidding - the guys in the shop love it!

Dave


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## Dan K (Nov 15, 2006)

Shecki said:


> Dan...
> 
> Thanks for the reply. The design is black and white, so if I understand you correctly...you'd print the black and white as if you were blending any two colors together...rather than print a solid underneath and that black on top? And by "charged waterbased inks"...do you mean just a standard waterbased ink as opposed to a discharge ink?
> 
> ...


Hi Sheki.

Right now you have three screens in this equation.

The discharge under base (which is what we wouldn't do).

The black is it's own screen. If you continue to print the underbase, there is no reason to under base the black, but it also won't hurt, so if the under base screen is burned no reason to burn another one.

The white would either need the discharge under base, or you would need to use a "charged" white water base ink. The charged ink is created by mixing your discharge solution into the water based inks, or in our situation, we add the white pigment to the discharge base since we are on a pigment based system. You should be able to do this pretty easily, but you also should call the ink manufacturer or distributor and get the recipe because it is a different process with each ink, and also because (as Dave mentioned) when you charge an ink, you shorten it's life, so you want to mix charged inks as you need them. If you get the recipes and calculators from the ink manufacturer, you can mix the right amount of ink for just that job...


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## Dan K (Nov 15, 2006)

spreadingink said:


> Hi Dan,
> 
> Just trying to keep my head above water.... and only somewhat succesfully at that! Rutlands new bases (we have been testing them and like them) smell like bubble gum!!! No kidding - the guys in the shop love it!
> 
> Dave


Trying to keep your head above water...................... BASE!

What's the new Rutland base? We're still on WB99. I think I need a new rep, cause our distributor has not mentioned a word about this.

A new smell would be nice, especially considering DC and my offices are above the shop... I hope the smell of cooking polyester doesn't change though, I kinda like that, it smells like bubble gum too.


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## Shecki (Jan 6, 2010)

Dan...

I actually was going to just burn 2 screens. The discharge underbase acting as my white....one solid shape of white printed with the black printed on top of that. My end goal I guess was to have anything that wasn't going to be black in the design...filled with white, to contrast the black. So one screen the design in black, and another the design just filled solid white. Bad idea?


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## Dan K (Nov 15, 2006)

Shecki said:


> Dan...
> 
> I actually was going to just burn 2 screens. The discharge underbase acting as my white....one solid shape of white printed with the black printed on top of that. My end goal I guess was to have anything that wasn't going to be black in the design...filled with white, to contrast the black. So one screen the design in black, and another the design just filled solid white. Bad idea?


So let me see if I got this...

2 screens. You would print the discharge under base with straight discharge ink, then clean the screen, then put the white ink in it and print that over the discharge under base? Then you would print the black on top of that discharge base and white print?

Do you have a picture of the design you could post up or email or anything?


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## Shecki (Jan 6, 2010)

It would be 2 screens. The underbase screen would be the exact outside shape of the entire design...so that when you drop the black on it everything that isn't black is white. The underbase is solid...no design....just the outside shape of the design.

I could post a picture of it when I get back in. I appreciate both you and Daves input. I'm sure I'm doing this the wrong way...so the experianced advice is much appreciated!


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## spreadingink (Feb 10, 2008)

It's still from the WB 99 system - it's just new. If your distributor doesn't have it yet it is because they probably depleting old stock. (I assume).

Thanks,

Dave


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## Shecki (Jan 6, 2010)

Dan....

Here's the image


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## Dan K (Nov 15, 2006)

spreadingink said:


> It's still from the WB 99 system - it's just new. If your distributor doesn't have it yet it is because they probably depleting old stock. (I assume).
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Dave


Thanks Dave. I actually talked to a different salesperson and will have samples of this stuff next week to work with. Bright White base to compete with the Matsui Bright White base (which we use now). I believe I even saw some sample prints with this at SGIA last week too now that I think back and know more...


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## Dan K (Nov 15, 2006)

Shecki said:


> Dan....
> 
> Here's the image


That would be a cool print with black water base and grey discharge, or even just black water base... Have you printed discharge on red garments before? You will probably not get a purely discharged or purely white print, it will likely have a pinkish redish hue to it...


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## spreadingink (Feb 10, 2008)

The new rutland bright white we really like and it's not sticky like the Matsui ink (which is important to our processes). 

As for the above print I would put the white on lower mesh - that will help with it discharging the red and also you may wan to up the perecentage of discharge agent a little higher - test it on one shirt before printing the run.

Dave


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## Shecki (Jan 6, 2010)

Dan K said:


> That would be a cool print with black water base and grey discharge, or even just black water base... Have you printed discharge on red garments before? You will probably not get a purely discharged or purely white print, it will likely have a pinkish redish hue to it...


Dan... 

I've never printed discharge before at all actually....so this will be my first go at it. If i print it with just black waterbased....everything will fade from black to red. That's why I was going to put that underbase of white under the entire image. Almost as if I was printing it on a white shirt.

Dave...

If I print the discharge on a low mesh count like a 110 or something to help it discharge a little better, would I have a problem with that screen holding detail? On a 110 screen....wouldn't I have to run an LPI of around 22?....loseing some detail, and having larger halftone dots? Or can I still run it somewhere around 45-55?


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## spreadingink (Feb 10, 2008)

Yes you will have a much greater chance for moire with the halftones on a lower mesh, but on a red shirt you will need the lower mesh to get the shirt to discharge clean and white. I don't think a 22 lpi is going to give you good fades either - you could try something like a 40 on a 160 - that's on the edge, but depending on the art you may be able to do it that way without moire.

Red is one of the hardest colors to discharge well and a lower mesh will help - but, of course, this image isn't the best for low mesh...

Dave


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## Shecki (Jan 6, 2010)

spreadingink said:


> Yes you will have a much greater chance for moire with the halftones on a lower mesh, but on a red shirt you will need the lower mesh to get the shirt to discharge clean and white. I don't think a 22 lpi is going to give you good fades either - you could try something like a 40 on a 160 - that's on the edge, but depending on the art you may be able to do it that way without moire.
> 
> Red is one of the hardest colors to discharge well and a lower mesh will help - but, of course, this image isn't the best for low mesh...
> 
> Dave


Dave... 

So maybe that way I was thinking about might not be such a bad idea then? If my underbase stencil is one solid block of the entire image...no detail or lines at all...just the entire image a solid print....my screen frequency wouldn't matter much on that screen, and I would eliminate the possibility of moire. Then I could print the black on top of that on a 230-250...somewhere around a 50 LPI, get good detail, and play it on the safe side? Instead of trying to blend the black to the white/gray.....just lay the black over an entire block of white/gray.

Does that make any sense to do it that way?


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## ROYAL SAVAGE (Feb 18, 2009)

This works. The mesh count is strictly a funtcion of the art. We have used 230 mesh as well as 156 mesh. The bigger concern is time and temperature to get the complete discharge so your printed area recieves the next inks correctly.


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## spreadingink (Feb 10, 2008)

Yes - maybe...the issue is that if print white discharge first you are going to get pull off on the black screen from it - usually you want to print white discharge last. Your other option is to do it as a 3 color print with a discharge base and black and white waterbase through 230 mesh on top - there are lots of ways to skin a cat....what works for your application may vary 

Dave


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## Shecki (Jan 6, 2010)

I know...kind of a dead thread, but I did end up printing this job. Ended up just doing it in plastisol. Reduced white, printed through 205 @ about 45 newtons (Newman mesh), 60 lpi at an angle of 22.5...2 colors, black and white....









I really wanted to do it in waterbase, but have just been having nightmare problems with waterbase. It just dries in the screens to fast for a one man operation. Thinned out, the plastisol hand wasn't to heavy.


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## snackdaddy185 (May 17, 2008)

Turned out great. What mesh did you use for the black ink?


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## Shecki (Jan 6, 2010)

205 as well...both black and white. The half tones seemed to hold pretty well with the 205. I might have been able to pick up a little more detail with a higher mesh, and probably didn't need that high of an LPI with the 205, but all in all....I was happy with the results. Printed wet on wet as well. Still wish I could get the whole waterbased thing down though...haha.


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