# confused on sublimation



## cult classic (Aug 15, 2012)

i posted this in the heat press thread to just in case but im confused on the difference between this and heat press or the process in general. not sure. any insight on this area would be great. i kind of dont know what it is i guess. i thought it was the same as heat pressing but i guess not. here is what i posted in heat press thread just incase someone here can shed some light on it for me. thank you. 

So im new this area of printing and though i knew what i waa talking about but i guess not.

basically...what is the difference between heat press and sublimation?

is heat press only for vinyl and plastisol transfers?

what do the souvenir shops in tourist areas use when they print out a custom cheesy slogan design from the computer printer and then i think heat press it onto a shirt? is that heat press or sublimation?

Im looking to get into this area but dont know where to start. any pros and cons about these fields or info would be greatly appreiciated. thank you.


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## D.Evo. (Mar 31, 2006)

Heat press can be used for different methods of garment decorating -plastisol transfers, ink-jet transfers, dye-sublimation, vynil, rhinestones. 
Dye-sublimation is a digital printing method that requires sublimation inks and paper; it's a good option for full colour images, one-off prints and short runs.
Dye-sublimation works on a variety of different substrates like t-shirts, mugs, ceramic and metal ornaments, neoprene products etc - however, blanks need to be polyester (textiles) or polymer coated (for hard substrates). Sublimation doesn't work on cotton or other natural fibres.

With dye-sublimation the print gets permanently dyed into the fabric (or into the polymer coating of a hard substrate), so you can't feel the print on the surface.


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## Redeemed1 (Dec 14, 2010)

Is it good for black shirts?


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## D.Evo. (Mar 31, 2006)

Redeemed1 said:


> Is it good for black shirts?


No, it doesn't work on black or very dark shirts. It's for white and light fabrics.
Dye sublimation DYES the design into the fabric - it's impossible to dye black fabric into any other colour. 
With dye-sublimation the design should be always darker, than the t-shirt. 
If you want to have dye-sublimated design on black background - the background should be included into the design. Most sports uniforms are done by dye-sublimation, but in most cases the process starts with white fabric cut into garment panels, printed and then sewn up.


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## cult classic (Aug 15, 2012)

so do the tourist shops use dye sub or something else. im just looking for the most inexpensive and least time consuming option for doing one offs. just trying to figure out all my options and weigh them. also was thinking about setting up a tourist shop with a buddy and just doing some research. i live in a high tourist traffic beach town


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## GordonM (May 21, 2012)

Most of the shirts in retail stores will be screen printed, which is a less expensive process and designed for quantity production. Here, the color of the shirt is not a major issue. Some may also use direct-to-garment printing, where special inks are sprayed right onto the fabrics. In this process white ink is used as an underlayment when applying a design to dark fabrics.

Dye sub and heat press transfer shirts are more readily adapted to one-off's and short runs, but without an opaque white backing (so the transparent inks will show) can only be used on white or lightly colored shirts.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

cult classic said:


> so do the tourist shops use dye sub or something else. im just looking for the most inexpensive and least time consuming option for doing one offs. just trying to figure out all my options and weigh them. also was thinking about setting up a tourist shop with a buddy and just doing some research. i live in a high tourist traffic beach town


"One-offs" can mean different things.

Many tourist shops may have a heat press and a supply of _stock_ plastisol transfers. These are screened printed somewhere else and sold to those tourist shops in some qnty of individual single designs.

The idea here is that you keep a supply of stock transfers and then don't commit them to a tshirt until you have a sale. However, these are not usually custom, they are made in advance elsewhere. samples are usually displayed on the wall then you pick the design and then the store will press that transfer onto a blank tshirt.

So in a sense the customer gets a "one-off" but it is not a custom "one-off" unless they have a lettering setup for names.

In some places there might be "one-up" customs done digitally but most tourist sites use stock transfers and print those on demand.

For example ...

Stock Iron-on Transfers | Heat Transfers | T-shirt Transfers


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## skdave (Apr 11, 2008)

I have a client that shows the public one of each of his designs for display at flea markets. When someone walks up to buy one he ask the size and press my dye sub transfer in 40 seconds and sells them for !2 bucks He makes 7 bucks and is delighted. 
He always has the correct size of each design this way. This also gives him time to up sell photo shirts that can be mailed to the walk up client.


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## Redeemed1 (Dec 14, 2010)

OK so my understanding is dye sub is only for short runs of white/light garments/custom designs but not for production like silk screen?

So dye sub would be more like an add on to silk screening business? or is there a lot of business just for dye sub?

Info on different type of things that can be done with dye sub would be helpful thanks.


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## Riderz Ready (Sep 18, 2008)

Redeemed1 said:


> OK so my understanding is dye sub is only for short runs of white/light garments/custom designs but not for production like silk screen?
> 
> So dye sub would be more like an add on to silk screening business? or is there a lot of business just for dye sub?
> 
> Info on different type of things that can be done with dye sub would be helpful thanks.


Go to sites like Johnson Plastics, Costal, Conde, etc and see for yourself the range of products. I would guess there are very few businesses that truly make the majority of their revenue form dye sublimation unless they are in the wide format market. 

Most dye sub is done out of ones home making a couple extra bucks or as an add on business to other decorating processes. The challenge in those cases is you cannot have a dye sub sitting around printing once a week or so and think it will work. They need to be run on a continual basis.


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## dedskii (Nov 30, 2012)

Riderz Ready said:


> Go to sites like Johnson Plastics, Costal, Conde, etc and see for yourself the range of products. I would guess there are very few businesses that truly make the majority of their revenue form dye sublimation unless they are in the wide format market.
> 
> Most dye sub is done out of ones home making a couple extra bucks or as an add on business to other decorating processes. The challenge in those cases is you cannot have a dye sub sitting around printing once a week or so and think it will work. They need to be run on a continual basis.


Quality response. That was sound advice.


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## Max Dos (Aug 28, 2010)

Redeemed1 said:


> Is it good for black shirts?


There are workarounds.


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## jwaldmann (Aug 12, 2012)

How often is a continual basis? I'll be doing iphone covers. Will 1 a day be sufficient to keep the print head open and everything running smoothly?


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

jwaldmann said:


> How often is a continual basis? I'll be doing iphone covers. Will 1 a day be sufficient to keep the print head open and everything running smoothly?


The amount of humidity in your environment will be a factor on how often you should print. Dryer air can absorb the moisture out of the inks in the printhead. 

If you are printing daily then should be no issue. At min every 3 days may be OK, if in a dryer place then maybe 1 - 2 days. Some have been known to keep a humidifier in their work area to keep the humidity higher near the printer.

On Ricohs as long as the printer is powered on and in "standby" then the printer firmware has a "vampire" and will push small amounts of ink while the printer is idle without any intervention on your part. Whether this is sufficient for sublimation or not ... is not really known, so best to just go ahead and do frequent nozzle checks if the printer is not used for transfers often enough.

On an Epson there is no "vampire" unless you hire one and buy Harvey head cleaner etc, and set it up on a timed basis, otherwise the "frequent printing" is a manual operation.


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## GordonM (May 21, 2012)

I don't see how drying out is all that likely, as the printhead sits in a wet environment (the capping station). Unless the entire capping station dries out completely -- which can happen but not in a week -- the printheads won't either. That's the idea of the capping station, to keep things moist.

Over the years of dealing with this and speaking directly with printer engineers, the overall assessment I've learned is that the majority of clogs are caused by bacteria, the same kind you get when water sits in a dog's drinking bowl, causing a "slime" at the bottom. The capping station prevents drying, but it allows the heads to soak in what is in effect dirty, stagnant water. The slimy "scum" builds up and blocks the jets. OEM ink in cartridges has a biocide, though the exact type, amount, and efficacy appear to be closely guarded secrets.

Except for Sawgrass's and Epson's factory-installed CIS systems, which have opaque black tanks, all the tanks I see are in clear containers. That makes no sense. At least put a black velvet cover over the external tanks to keep them away from even indirect light. As long as the air vents are not blocked it should be okay.

This isn't to say you shouldn't still print or do a head check 2-3 times a week for dye sub, and at least once a week for pigment. And you already know the Swedish massager trick I use to keep the inks well mixed!

This past summer I saw humidity and higher ambient heat causing banding. My guess was that the liquid in the long lines expanded, altering the pressure in the cartridges. Always, by the next day when it was cooler, the banding disappeared all on its own.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

GordonM said:


> I don't see how drying out is all that likely, as the printhead sits in a wet environment (the capping station). Unless the entire capping station dries out completely -- which can happen but not in a week -- the printheads won't either. That's the idea of the capping station, to keep things moist.
> 
> Over the years of dealing with this and speaking directly with printer engineers, the overall assessment I've learned is that the majority of clogs are caused by bacteria, the same kind you get when water sits in a dog's drinking bowl, causing a "slime" at the bottom. The capping station prevents drying, but it allows the heads to soak in what is in effect dirty, stagnant water. The slimy "scum" builds up and blocks the jets. OEM ink in cartridges has a biocide, though the exact type, amount, and efficacy appear to be closely guarded secrets.
> 
> ...


Gordon, try living in Phoenix  My capping station dries in a day FACT. And is nothing close to an air tight "cap" the heads rest on what is basically a sponge.

It's well known and been reported over the years by well experienced sublimators that using a dehumidifier helps lessen clogging. _Sorry, your dog don't hunt. I have lived in both humid and dry climates, rest assured there is a difference._

Also, the "bacteria scum" theory only has _some_ merit. 

An opportunity exists for the scum regardless of what is in the printer, _all_ desktop inks contain water. Sublimation printers clog more often than pigment inks do and dye inks clog less often than either sub or pigments ... so other factors are dominant. Bioside or no bioside OEM dye inks clog less than OEM pigments do, this is a fact. If your germ theory was the real case then neither OEM dye inks or OEM pigment inks should be clogging much if the OEM puts biosides in both. 

Biosides do not stop vaporization. A dye OEM ink is water soluble, pigments (particles) and sub inks (particles) can clog due to water vaporization leaving only the particles and they clump once the water is gone. This is a fact based on actual usage of a variety of inkjet printers and years of actual users feedback, not based on speculative theory.


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## Riph (Jan 11, 2011)

I live in a dry mountainous climate. Not hot, but RH (relative humidity) is usually below 25%, often as low as 10% in the summer.

I try to make sure I print something with my dye sub printer once a week. That seems to do the trick.


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## Max Dos (Aug 28, 2010)

There should be an application that sends a print every other day. Maybe one that gets images randomly from a photo album an sends a 6 by 4 image to the printer. Fit two or three in a sheet.

Print them at the end of the year and make a quilt .


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

Max Dos said:


> There should be an application that sends a print every other day. Maybe one that gets images randomly from a photo album an sends a 6 by 4 image to the printer. Fit two or three in a sheet.
> 
> Print them at the end of the year and make a quilt .


Such a thing exists, except for the random images.

Print head cleaning the easy way. No more clogged inkjets with Harvey Head Cleaner.


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## Max Dos (Aug 28, 2010)

Thanks Michael. We only need the quilt making software now .


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

Riph said:


> I live in a dry mountainous climate. Not hot, but RH (relative humidity) is usually below 25%, often as low as 10% in the summer.
> 
> I try to make sure I print something with my dye sub printer once a week. That seems to do the trick.


Here is the guide from Harvey head cleaners based on climate ..

How to Use Harvey Head Cleaner

Here in Phoenix we get heat and low humidty, unless we are in "Monsoon" season it can be 95 degress out and you won't sweat unless you are active or sitting in direct sunlight, if I go back to the midwest in the summer, or go to Asia, then even high 70's and no physical activity makes me sweat like a dog.

We have a saying here in Phoenix everyone chuckles at "It's a dry heat"


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## GordonM (May 21, 2012)

It's not speculative theory, Mike. This is from HP, Canon, and Epson engineers, whom I interviewed in the early 90s when I regularly wrote for computer magazines. 

Biocidal properties can also be built into the materials selected as part of the pigments or dyes themselves, as well as any surfactants or binders in the ink. It's not just a matter of pouring Lysol into the tanks! 

Numerous patents over the years not only list biocides as part of the ink formulation, but a few specifically cover named agents, for the purpose of reducing head clogging. Example: I've been watching a patent application, 20120162332, that specifically addresses this (they use "fouling," which is the technically correct term) for dye sublimation inks. Dow Chemical is also active in this field, with products such as Rocima.

If it were a matter of just drying out then Durabrite would also cause clogs as regularly as after-market pigment, and they don't. Durabrite is known to contain a humectant, but I don't believe that additive alone would make the substantial difference that it does in real-world printing -- though clearly it makes some difference, or they wouldn't bother.

This isn't to say things can dry out, but the jets have to be bone dry to crust over, and even in low humidity that's going to take more than a day or two. You do not need or want an air-tight seal (that would create a vacuum), since capillary action from the sponge will draw out minute amounts of ink.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

GordonM said:


> It's not speculative theory, Mike. This is from HP, Canon, and Epson engineers, whom I interviewed in the early 90s when I regularly wrote for computer magazines.
> 
> Biocidal properties can also be built into the materials selected as part of the pigments or dyes themselves, as well as any surfactants or binders in the ink. It's not just a matter of pouring Lysol into the tanks!
> 
> ...


Gordon, not stating there is _no_ merit to what you state, I know from experience that inks dry out. Less so with OEM dye inks or 3rd party dye inks. 

I have all three types of printers in my enviroment. I have used Epson OEM pigments in my 4880 until it ran out of warranty, in real world usage I see no difference between Epsons pigment inks on my desktop or K3's on my 4880 than anything I have used from Cobra or Mis Associates in terms of clogs. If it were mostly germs then I should see a big difference between OEM inks and 3rd parties I use, simple put I don't. Most clogs are from carts or CIS issues, not the inks if they are good 3rd party.

Using dye printers in the wifes home office with OEM inks they can sit a lot longer than any pigment inks OEM or not. This is due to the inks not drying out so easy due to no particles in the inks. Germs aside you need to print often enough with sublimation or pigments.

Ricoh also has a capping station as well. Here is what they state on ink drying being a problem. They made a "vampire" just for the ink drying problem. This is OEM ink from Ricoh.

https://ricoh.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/19143/p/2510%2C2511%2C2512%2C4558

*Color ink is consumed even when all printing is in black and white*

"Printing in black-and-white also consumes color ink. 
To keep their nozzles (inkheads) in top condition, GelJet devices perform automatic maintenance at various times, including the beginning of a print task. 
When maintenance is performed, very small amounts of fresh ink are used to *clear away ink that has dried within the nozzle*, wipers absorb ink as necessary, and foreign particles of paper and *dried ink* are cleaned away. For this reason, even colors of ink that are not used for the printing itself are consumed during maintenance. 
Manually initiated maintenance tasks such as head cleaning also consume ink.

Finally, to ensure optimal print results, GelJet devices perform automatic image processing adjustments based on the ink and paper to be used. For some kinds of paper, the best way to get black images may be to mix colored ink on the page. This is another reason why color ink may be consumed to produce printouts in black and white."

Perhaps you should inform Ricoh that they are wrong ... germs are causing most of the clogs and not the inks drying out. 

Epson (and their Engineers) will never admit that you need to print frequently or else your inks will dry in the head with their own inks. I have seen Epson make the case against 3rd party inks due to "external contaminants", but their pigment inks clogs the same way my 3rd party inks will clog if I don't print often enough. Ricoh works around the ink drying issue a bit with a "vampire" design, and unless you drill down into Ricohs FAQs you would never know this either, they (Epson) won't advertise that you need to print frequently nor will their _PR conscience_ Engineers admit that either. They claim the use of "biosides" mainly to spook others from using 3rd party. Inkjet printers, use them or lose them. More so sublimating.

BTW, Sawgrass describes the use of "fungasides" in their patent, although it is not a "independent" claim. We all know Sawgrass inks don't clog.  You also ignore that fact that 3rd party pigment MAY contain such ingredients in their inks, or that they may also create the inks in sterile environments ...


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## Riderz Ready (Sep 18, 2008)

Fall on Gordons side on the drying out issue. My experience is "clogging" has little to do with humidty and in fact has everything to do with the ink - at least in our environment which is very low humidty.

When we were using Artainium ink and having "clogging" issues we were told the old humidty story and did such - got the humidty 70% and still clogged - no difference. Moved to Sublim had the same issues just less frequent.

Later moved to J-Teck and the problem virtually disappeared. In fact while we transitioned from our Epson to our Mutoh we would run the Epson on reorders once every three with no clogging issues.

The only thing that changed was the ink -


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

Riderz Ready said:


> Fall on Gordons side on the drying out issue. My experience is "clogging" has little to do with humidty and in fact has everything to do with the ink - at least in our environment which is very low humidty.
> 
> When we were using Artainium ink and having "clogging" issues we were told the old humidty story and did such - got the humidty 70% and still clogged - no difference. Moved to Sublim had the same issues just less frequent.
> 
> ...


You are adding 2 + 2 and getting five. Ever consider your your new inks are better quality in the first place, less particles clumping maybe? If the water is vaporized what is left?

Inks drying out not causing clogs?, *argue with Ricoh*, *read my post*. Dry environments don't "suck" water out of things faster than humid environments? New physics that you have discovered?

""Printing in black-and-white also consumes color ink. 
To keep their nozzles (inkheads) in top condition, GelJet devices perform automatic maintenance at various times, including the beginning of a print task. 
When maintenance is performed, very small amounts of fresh ink are used to *clear away ink that has dried within the nozzle*, wipers absorb ink as necessary, and foreign particles of paper and *dried ink* are cleaned away. For this reason, even colors of ink that are not used for the printing itself are consumed during maintenance. 
Manually initiated maintenance tasks such as head cleaning also consume ink." 

_Why_ has the ink dried and _where_ did it go, is it voodoo or magic that took away the water in the inks?

I can let a OEM dye printer sit a longer time here, no way I can do that with OEM pigment ... why?

So you are stating humidity is not a factor and it's germs?

Your argument fails because it is a fact that inks can dry up in the printhead.

Less humidity will absorb moisture from things.

More temperature will also accelerate this evaporation process.

The water in the inks will evap faster or slower depending upon the environment.

These are not the lone factors, inks can still clump irregards of humidity and temp, some worse than others.

You live in AZ, explain how evaporative cooling works.


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## GordonM (May 21, 2012)

Mike, I'm quite sure drying does contribute, but by not fully appreciating all of the issues one misses opportunities to fix the overall problem.

Consider: Epson's own CISS system, just introduced, uses opaque black external tanks. As such a design choice makes it harder to see ink levels, this must have been done (as Sawgrass has done) to reduce light exposure that can cause bacterial growth. There's no other practical reason for it.

No printer manufacturer that I know of voluntarily admits their inks produce scum. Would you? Yet every printer and ink maker has patents related to biocides to reduce clogging. Example, here's a European patent, from Lexmark, on the very thing:

Patent EP1591494A2 - Inks and printheads with internal clog prevention - Google Patents

This patent is notable in that they strive to use natural enzymatic and biocidal agents that are part of the pigments, rather than use an additive that could have contrary effects on the inks.

All things considered, pigment inks should gunk up print heads on a continual basis. Yet I've had Epsons with stock Durabrite cartridges sit for weeks on end without clogging.I don't tempt fate with my Cobra pigment CISS. I do a print or head check no less than every two days, I keep a velvet cloth over the tanks (stuck on with Velcro), and I am scrupulous when adding ink, repriming, or anything else where there is a potential to introduce contaminants.

I live in SoCal, where it does get pretty dry at regular intervals. My oldest 7010 is about six months old, and whatever hygroscopic fluid they've added to the gray paddings is still very much there. The long strip immediately under the printhead is constantly exposed to air, yet it has not dried up in the least. The capping station sponge uses the same fluid. Even if you consider some of this fluid is lost in cleanings, there ought to be enough remaining, with ink that contains a humectant for good measure, to keep things damp.

I'm not saying ink never dries out, the capping station on printers, especially older ones, don't get caked up, etc. But there's more to it than just this.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

Does the Cartridge Ink Evaporate When Not Used? | Printer & Printer Ink Related Articles


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

GordonM said:


> Mike, I'm quite sure drying does contribute, but by not fully appreciating all of the issues one misses opportunities to fix the overall problem.
> 
> Consider: Epson's own CISS system, just introduced, uses opaque black external tanks. As such a design choice makes it harder to see ink levels, this must have been done (as Sawgrass has done) to reduce light exposure that can cause bacterial growth. There's no other practical reason for it.
> 
> ...


Again, you _assume_ other inks are not using "biosides".

I lived in Whitter CA for 8 years, it is not near as dry there as it is here. I cannot let a pigment printer sit here, OEM or otherwise it WILL clog.

That Lexmart patent isn't a "lock" on "biosides", they claim a specific mixture, otherwise they could sue Epson or others (including 3rd party inks) using biosides don't you think?

Yes printer OEMs use "biosides" so do other 3rd party inks ... even Sawgrass. There is no patent monopoly there in general.

I agree that germs could be a a factor, just not the dominate one. Inks dry up plain and simple. That is due to lack of using the printer. Dryness in the environent along with temps effect the rate of vaporization.


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## GordonM (May 21, 2012)

Why do you keep posting links to consumer-level articles (without citations, even)? I realize there isn't a lot of scientifically-backed information on this topic from authoritative sources, which is why I've posted a couple of patents and patent applications that demonstrate the methods industry has used to reducing clogging/fouling.

No one is arguing inks don't dry. Otherwise there would be no purpose to them. What's at issue is whether drying inks is really to blame for all the clogs, especially in CISS systems.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

GordonM said:


> Why do you keep posting links to consumer-level articles (without citations, even)? I realize there isn't a lot of scientifically-backed information on this topic from authoritative sources, which is why I've posted a couple of patents and patent applications that demonstrate the methods industry has used to reducing clogging/fouling.
> 
> No one is arguing inks don't dry. Otherwise there would be no purpose to them. What's at issue is whether drying inks is really to blame for all the clogs, especially in CISS systems.


So Ricohs's "consumer level" article (without citation) is BS? Their inks are clogging for other reasons and they lie? They don't know their own product?

Sawgrass doesn't mention "biosides" in their '907 patent.


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## GordonM (May 21, 2012)

mgparrish said:


> Yes printer OEMs use "biosides" so do other 3rd party inks ... even Sawgrass. There is no patent monopoly there in general.


As a BTW, it's "biocide," as in killing microbial gunk.

There is no indication Sawgrass uses a biocide in their inks. Their principle patent for the inks in use now do not mention it, and as they are fond of listing multiple claims of various combinations from their base claim, you'd think they would. Patents by other ink and printer makers usually do make note of it. I've linked to a few.

It is unclear whether Durabrite or other Epson inks for desktop printers incorporate a biocide. Being in a self-contained cartridge it may not require one. 

On a separate note, in doing some basic searches for a couple more patents, I ran across this:

Merck to Use Epson's Inkjet Ink Technology to Manufacture Large OLED Displays - Industry News

Merck will use Epson printers to actually print out organic LED displays! The mind boggles.


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## GordonM (May 21, 2012)

mgparrish said:


> So Ricohs's "consumer level" article (without citation) is BS? Their inks are clogging for other reasons and they lie? They don't know their own product?


I've already answered this.

Being vague with all the technical reasons is not lying.

Drying probably is a factor. It's also the easiest for the typical consumer not well educated on the subject to understand. (And I'm NOT lumping you in that group, far from it.)

Drying isn't the only factor, or else no one would be spending time and money combating the problem in ways that have nothing to do with dried ink.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

GordonM said:


> As a BTW, it's "biocide," as in killing microbial gunk.
> 
> There is no indication Sawgrass uses a biocide in their inks. Their principle patent for the inks in use now do not mention it, and as they are fond of listing multiple claims of various combinations from their base claim, you'd think they would. Patents by other ink and printer makers usually do make note of it. I've linked to a few.
> 
> ...


There is nothing "vague" in Ricoh's explanation. It's dried ink in the print head.

Forgive my spelling  I also didn't put a question mark after "Sawgrass doesn't use "biosides" ... the context is that they do use BIOCIDES. *See the attached.*

Biocide | Define Biocide at Dictionary.com

*bi·o·cide*

[bahy-uh-sahyd] noun 
any chemical that destroys life by poisoning, especially a pesticide, herbicide, or fungicide. 



Here is a 3rd party mentioning "Biocides" in their inks, but not claiming it generally.

US Patent # 7,789,955. Inkjet ink composition - Patents.com

And another.

Inkjet Ink Report

Anyway you mentioned 

***** 
"It's not speculative theory, Mike. This is from HP, Canon, and Epson engineers, whom I interviewed in the early 90s when I regularly wrote for computer magazines. 

Biocidal properties can also be built into the materials selected as part of the pigments or dyes themselves, as well as any surfactants or binders in the ink. It's not just a matter of pouring Lysol into the tanks!"
******

So does Epson put "Biocides" in their inks or not? Anything used in the early nineties is now in the public domain, that means the OEMs germ "secrets" are out in the public domain. I don't believe OEM inks are superiour due to "Biocides" I believe they are standard in most all inks.

Based on what I am reading on this subject most everybody is adding _stuff_ to keep out "growths" from the inks, however, OEM inks are still getting clogged in printers regardless of these. This directly co-relates with minimal printer usage.

Anyway, lots of reasons for clogged printers, I know for a fact dryed inks from idle printers are high on the list, inks with "particles" are worse, dye inks without particles the printers can sit idle longer. Once the water is evap this leaves particles to clump. If the ink didn't have particles to "clump" in the first place this would only leave germs to "clump". Dye inks stay water soluble and don't have particles, but they should still have "germs". If germs were such a big factor then dye inks should be clogging more often, they too could have "germs". 

And many confuse poor ink delivery with "clogs" the net result is the same and it may appear as though bands are clogs. That may not have anything to do with dried inks, humidity, temp, germs etc.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

I guess I am not the only crazy person around here that thinks your environment matters ...

Caring For Your Inkjet Sublimation | Awards & Engraving

Kevin at JP. I reckon he has sorted out a few clogged printers before.


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## Riderz Ready (Sep 18, 2008)

mgparrish said:


> I guess I am not the only crazy person around here that thinks your environment matters ...
> 
> Caring For Your Inkjet Sublimation | Awards & Engraving
> 
> Kevin at JP. I reckon he has sorted out a few clogged printers before.


I would say that environment may be a factor but a small one in comparison to the quality of ink. First you cannot even get experts to agree what causes "clogs". Some will say ink drying, others will say fungus and many will say it is actually air in the head. Most likely all three occur but who can really say what percent is each factor contributing to "clogs"? Is ink drying causing 10% of "clogs" or 80% of "clogs"?

I can say without question, raising the humidty for us when we used Artainum and Sublim ink made absolutely no difference. It was kind of like a software support person telling you to run defrag to resolve a problem.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

Riderz Ready said:


> I would say that environment may be a factor but a small one in comparison to the quality of ink. First you cannot even get experts to agree what causes "clogs". Some will say ink drying, others will say fungus and many will say it is actually air in the head. Most likely all three occur but who can really say what percent is each factor contributing to "clogs"? Is ink drying causing 10% of "clogs" or 80% of "clogs"?
> 
> I can say without question, raising the humidty for us when we used Artainum and Sublim ink made absolutely no difference. It was kind of like a software support person telling you to run defrag to resolve a problem.


Of course the humidity adjustment didn't work for you ..._you can't raise and control the humidity to a good enough level in AZ in any practical way_, I suspect the reason it didn't work for you is 100% the reason Kevin at JP explains.  I'd like to hear how you tried it.

"This is an extreme solution, but I know of folks in Arizona that were having constant printer problems because of the dry air. They tried using a humidifier but could not maintain a high enough humidity because of constantly running air conditioning."

Unless you stuck a portable evap cooler in a small room in the summer (and closed off the area to create a seperate climate zone) and then went to steam heat in the Phoenix "winter", no other way you are going to get near 50% RH unless you only print at certain times in the day in the 3 month or so Monsoon season. Try running an evap in late June - Oct. and actually work in that room ... good luck with that  

Yes ink matters as you mention. But I'm not getting where all the experts are stating we have a germ problem, you have some links for those? Printing frequently and maintaning my printer properly, and not letting my inks dry in the print head solves any problems for me.


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## Riderz Ready (Sep 18, 2008)

mgparrish said:


> Of course the humidity adjustment didn't work for you ..._you can't raise and control the humidity to a good enough level in AZ in any practical way_, I suspect the reason it didn't work for you is 100% the reason Kevin at JP explains.  I'd like to hear how you tried it.
> 
> "This is an extreme solution, but I know of folks in Arizona that were having constant printer problems because of the dry air. They tried using a humidifier but could not maintain a high enough humidity because of constantly running air conditioning."
> 
> ...


Not sure why you think one cannot control humidty in AZ but maybe you are a humidty expert along with the long list of other expertises you possess. 

Pointless to argue whether one can control humidty in AZ or any location. All I can say is we did, with little effort, it made ZERO difference yet when we changed ink we had no clogs.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

Riderz Ready said:


> Not sure why you think one cannot control humidty in AZ but maybe you are a humidty expert along with the long list of other expertises you possess.
> 
> Pointless to argue whether one can control humidty in AZ or any location. All I can say is we did, with little effort, it made ZERO difference yet when we changed ink we had no clogs.


Didn't state one could not control climate in AZ, I stated there is no practical way to do it. I could take you to a semi-conductor fab here in AZ where they need constant humidity control for static electricity reasons and let you see what is involved, not cheap and easy. You say you "did" so how did you accomplish that?

My point is that _you_ were not able to control it and for good reason, it wasn't that humidity control didn't work for you ... _no way you are going to be able to control it enough with some room appliance to know if it fixed your problem or not_, even if it was your problem in the first place. It's not an option for us, exactly for the reasons Kevin stated. You could get a humidifier addon installed on your entire HVAC system $$$$ just for the $500 desktop printer you were using then, or create a zone control? NAH Anything you tried local in the room your printer was in just an exercise in futility.

I'm still waiting for your germ expert links ....


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## Riderz Ready (Sep 18, 2008)

mgparrish said:


> Didn't state one could not control climate in AZ, I stated there is no practical way to do it. I could take you to a semi-conductor fab here in AZ where they need constant humidity control for static electricity reasons and let you see what is involved, not cheap and easy. You say you "did" so how did you accomplish that?
> 
> My point is that _you_ were not able to control it and for good reason, it wasn't that humidity control didn't work for you ... _no way you are going to be able to control it enough with some room appliance to know if it fixed your problem or not_, even if it was your problem in the first place. It's not an option for us, exactly for the reasons Kevin stated. You could get a humidifier addon installed on your entire HVAC system $$$$ just for the $500 desktop printer you were using then, or create a zone control? NAH Anything you tried local in the room your printer was in just an exercise in futility.
> 
> I'm still waiting for your germ expert links ....


My goodness I hope you impress yourself as for me - i just get bored with the know it all attitude, cut and pastes, etc. The difference between us is I do what you read about. My post are based on real life experiences of running a dye sublimation business full time that has reached a decent level of success. 

One day I could only dream of being a self proclaimed expert on dye sub, web development, programming, printers, etc. What person with a clear head compares a room containing a printer with a semi conductor fab unit. Anyone can go to visit Intel - they do not need you to show them. 

By the way - I have no clue what you are talking about in regards "germ experts" links. See I do not base my opinions on links, articles, etc like you wanna-be's. I base it on real life 12 hours a day experience of actually doing it.

Maybe go back and help Tom figure out the open source t-shirt project he has abandoned as predicted. You seem to be an expert on that as well.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

Riderz Ready said:


> My goodness I hope you impress yourself as for me - i just get bored with the know it all attitude, cut and pastes, etc. The difference between us is I do what you read about. My post are based on real life experiences of running a dye sublimation business full time that has reached a decent level of success.
> 
> One day I could only dream of being a self proclaimed expert on dye sub, web development, programming, printers, etc. What person with a clear head compares a room containing a printer with a semi conductor fab unit. Anyone can go to visit Intel - they do not need you to show them.
> 
> ...


You mentioned you agreed with Gordon, that's where the germs came from. It's Ok you can agree with him but seems you can't quote the experts you claimed exist to back up your "agreement". 

Wow, back to smears as usual. Still not discussing how you created what you claim.

I'm just curious how you thought you could year round dump tons of water into you air in your printer room then when the highest humidity we ever get here OUTSIDE is usually never higher than the humidity levels Kevin recommended and usually much lower, and assuming you would want to work in a 70 - 80 degree room.

Can't help but wonder how you would keep from having _astronomical_ utility bills since your AC and/or heat pump (if you use a heat pump) is going to work and try and SUCK BACK OUT ALL THE MOISTURE you are dumping into the air to raise the humidity back up to keep your printer happy $$$$$$. Talk about chasing your tail. 

Anyway good luck with that, might work elsewhere, but Kevin is dead on _that dog don't hunt here_.

As far as the Open Tshirt project, it was amusing watching "you step in it" while you just went there to troll and ranting about the evils of open source software and claiming no businesses use it and not "mainstream" or however you stated it, and how you would not use Open Source, then you didn't even know that Open Source is dominant in the internet, and ON YOUR OWN WEBSITE your host created it _using Open Source tools_.


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## Riderz Ready (Sep 18, 2008)

mgparrish said:


> You mentioned you agreed with Gordon, that's where the germs came from. It's Ok you can agree with him but seems you can't quote the experts you claimed exist to back up your "agreement".
> 
> Wow, back to smears as usual. Still not discussing how you created what you claim.
> 
> ...


Your a tool and get into so many squabbles that it is hard for you to keep everyone separate. I simply agreed with Gordon that "drying" ink, in our case was not the issue with so called "clogs".

As usual you you pick and chose statements inside an article while ignoring others. You can keep wondering all you like about how we do things - I have zero need nor desire to validate anything with you. Your only purpose in this forum is to make sure everyone knows you are a genius on any topic mentioned. You have convinced me - if I ever need to know how to be a successful dye sublimation provider your the first person I call.

As far as open source - I simply stated very few business use open source applications as they virtually do not exist in the business world. They fail or never get off the ground for many reasons just as Open T-shirts will never get off the ground. 

You can continue to ramble on in hopes of impressing yourself but I am way to bored to continue a dialogue with you. Maybe a few more cut and paste would be nice for you to end with?


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

Riderz Ready said:


> Your a tool and get into so many squabbles that it is hard for you to keep everyone separate. I simply agreed with Gordon that "drying" ink, in our case was not the issue with so called "clogs".
> 
> As usual you you pick and chose statements inside an article while ignoring others. You can keep wondering all you like about how we do things - I have zero need nor desire to validate anything with you. Your only purpose in this forum is to make sure everyone knows you are a genius on any topic mentioned. You have convinced me - if I ever need to know how to be a successful dye sublimation provider your the first person I call.
> 
> ...


Yes you stated "very few business use open source applications as they virtually do not exist in the business world".

That is _not true_ in the internet dude, on your PC yes, MS word Exchange etc yes.

I'm surprised you even brought this up, the _comedy_ you created was you went there to _troll _his thread and started to bash open source and his open source _internet application_. 

You mentioned Inkscape as an example (a PC program) of a program that isn't widely accepted, which in that context is true. 

Then it was pointed out that YOUR website (in the business world) was built with open source and your host _confirmed_ it was built with Ruby On Rails OPEN SOURCE. Your host's marketing website (in the business world) was built using Joomla also OPEN SOURCE. You had no clue. You bashed it then didn't realize your own site was built using "evil" open source tools. DUH

The fact is that open source applications and tools DOMINATE the internet. There are many commercial apps and open source both, but to say Open Source "they virtually do not exist in the business world" is _crazy_ when the discussion was about an Open Source application in the internet, that is unless you just arrived here from another planet. 

Really surprised you opened the door on the Open Tshirts discussions, why go there? ... most others would be embarrased about falling face first in their own poo poo. Really silly for you to be arguing this, real easy to "cut and paste" the link or the dialogs.


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## Riderz Ready (Sep 18, 2008)

mgparrish said:


> Yes you stated "very few business use open source applications as they virtually do not exist in the business world".
> 
> That is _not true_ in the internet dude, on your PC yes, MS word Exchange etc yes.
> 
> ...


The only time I get poo poo on me is when I stoop to your level. Once again you pick and chose what you like from peoples response and leave out the rest. 

To even discuss a topic with a verified know it all is pointless. Your responses are pointless and few really care as it is all based on nothing.

We all bow to your incredible knowledge of the world we live.

My apology to the OP - I will end my comments as blowhard will not let it go.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

Riderz Ready said:


> The only time I get poo poo on me is when I stoop to your level. *Once again you pick and chose what you like from peoples response and leave out the rest. *
> 
> To even discuss a topic with a verified know it all is pointless. Your responses are pointless and few really care as it is all based on nothing.
> 
> ...


Full context starts here ...

http://www.t-shirtforums.com/ecommerce-site-design/t141019-46.html#post1151880

To get the full comedy it's futher on in the posts.


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## Riderz Ready (Sep 18, 2008)

mgparrish said:


> Full context starts here ...
> 
> http://www.t-shirtforums.com/ecommerce-site-design/t141019-46.html#post1151880
> 
> To get the full comedy it's futher on in the posts.


For everyone who is too busy making money to read it all this says it in a nutshell - 

In short very few care about what or how an application is developed. I know zero about development and could care less about what tools are used. Surely most people in software have a distinct understnding of the difference between development tools and application software.

Sorry to burst your bubble folks but DecoNetwork is not Joomla based  What you are looking at is DecoNetwork.com, our marketing website.

For the record DecoNetwork is custom built in Ruby on Rails. So not open source!
__________________
Brenden
*Online designer and eCommerce platform:* DecoNetwork.com


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

Riderz Ready said:


> For everyone who is too busy making money to read it all this says it in a nutshell -
> 
> Sorry to burst your bubble folks but DecoNetwork is not Joomla based  What you are looking at is DecoNetwork.com, our marketing website.
> 
> ...


BS. You accuse me of "snipits" here is my post ... what part of "your website is built with Ruby on Rails an Open Source tool" don't you understand? I didn't state _your _website is open source. It was built using Open Source.

http://www.t-shirtforums.com/ecommerce-site-design/t141019-49.html#post1158739




mgparrish said:


> Sorry to burst your bubble ... you are MIS-QUOTING me.
> 
> "1. Did you know that the *deconetwork.com* website (your host) is based on an Open Source CMS"?
> 
> ...


My point is all this stuff you are bashing you have no clue what built your own website OPEN SOURCE.


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## Riderz Ready (Sep 18, 2008)

mgparrish said:


> BS. You accuse me of "snipits" here is my post ... what part of "your website is built with Ruby on Rails an Open Source tool" don't you understand? I didn't state your website is open source.
> 
> http://www.t-shirtforums.com/ecommerce-site-design/t141019-49.html#post1158739
> 
> ...


Sorry my site was built by Deconetwork - not open source. I am done as I need to get our new products released as I actually make dye sublimation products.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

Riderz Ready said:


> Sorry my site was built by Deconetwork - not open source. I am done as I need to get our new products released as I actually make dye sublimation products.


DUH, your site was built by Deconetwork using OPEN SOURCE tools. 

No open source no internet dude.

*Here is the issue dude, this statement you keep making then and now is not true.*

"As far as open source - I simply stated very few business use open source applications as they virtually do not exist in the business world."

You used this _false premise_ as your argument for not using Open Tshirts while you were trolling the Advanced Artists thread.

You used the meme that that you should not use Open Tshirts being Open Source because likely it would not have any support if it got abandoned. If Ruby on Rails gets abandoned then what happens to your website in the future?

If you understood the concept of Open Source then you would know that others can pick up the development if Tom wins the lottery and goes off traveling the world. It is more likely to get abandoned if he kept it commercial and the same thing happens or if something happened to him, only he would know the secrets. Same thing with Ruby on Rails no _entity_ owns it. And if your host abandons his commercial project you are likely hosed (not that he would).


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## Riderz Ready (Sep 18, 2008)

mgparrish said:


> DUH, your site was built by Deconetwork using OPEN SOURCE tools.
> 
> No open source no internet dude.
> 
> ...


Too funny Open Source and AL Gore - the world will rotate without them both. 

It just eats at you that you were proved wrong as you are frequently - Deconetwork is not open source. 

You live in a Popular Mechanics wanna-be world. You keep plugging away on all your open source projects that never come to light and I will keep dye subbing and making money.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

Riderz Ready said:


> Too funny Open Source and AL Gore - the world will rotate without them both.
> 
> It just eats at you that you were proved wrong as you are frequently - Deconetwork is not open source.
> 
> You live in a Popular Mechanics wanna-be world. You keep plugging away on all your open source projects that never come to light and I will keep dye subbing and making money.


You either need meds dude or rehab to get off of them. 

What part of "DUH, your site was built by Deconetwork using OPEN SOURCE tools." don't you understand? Mix and mash up words up all you want I have never stated that Deconetwork was Open Source.  

And again you are propagating a myth, this project has come to life, he has functioning app and the next thing that is going forward is to extend it to Open Cart.

Or would you prefer to announce the project status update?

Whatever personal agenda you have against this it's proceeding whether you like it or not.


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