# Is Dye Sublimation Ink REQUIRED with self-weeding transfer paper?



## Lixhul (Aug 27, 2010)

Hello, just starting to get into the heat press business (then screen printing), but at the minute I am interested in *Self weeding transfer* paper with heat press.

I am asking can you use normal standard ink when printing on a transfer paper, or is* Subliminal Ink* an absolute nessesity when printing onto transfer paper for the heat press?

Thanks in advance. Also, what printer would you redcommened? I currently have an Epson S21 which cost like 20 quid so its no good I bet lol


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## mn shutterbug (Mar 19, 2009)

What in the world is self weeding transfer paper?

Anyway, sublimation ink is an absolute necessity when doing dye sublimation printing. Ricoh makes darned nice printers for dye sub work.


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## agensop (Dec 11, 2008)

i dont believe it is, i have only heard of self weeding papers with laser transfers, so the need of sublimation angle would be news to me.

self weeding papers is pretty much what it says the only thing that comes off the paper is where the print is. i have heard of this for doing laser prints on dark shirts. 



Lixhul said:


> Hello, just starting to get into the heat press business (then screen printing), but at the minute I am interested in *Self weeding transfer* paper with heat press.
> 
> I am asking can you use normal standard ink when printing on a transfer paper, or is* Subliminal Ink* an absolute nessesity when printing onto transfer paper for the heat press?
> 
> Thanks in advance. Also, what printer would you redcommened? I currently have an Epson S21 which cost like 20 quid so its no good I bet lol


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## bornover (Apr 10, 2008)

Sublimation inks would only be used in the sublimation process. Typically, for garment decoration, you print sublimation ink onto a high release paper to then infuse the dye (using heat that causes the sublimation ink to turn into a gas) into a polyester substrate (like a poly t-shirt for example). There is no weeding because you are not cutting vinyl, or any material of any kind, on a plotting cutter and weeding out the parts of the material that you don't want transfered to the garment.


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## johnbol1 (Aug 19, 2010)

short amswer no,


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## Lixhul (Aug 27, 2010)

Ah, great thanks for the replies. The only reason I ask this is because for a bulk set of 6 inks it would set me back £300.

My initial reaction was a polite WTF.


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## stevens07 (Aug 30, 2010)

You can purchase sublimation ink for cheaper than the 300.00


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## bornover (Apr 10, 2008)

Sublimation ink is expensive compared to other inks. And even more expensive for small format printers.


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## stevens07 (Aug 30, 2010)

Sublimation ink is VERY expensive, but I found a supplier a few months ago that I pay less than half that price and it works.


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## Dynamic J (Jun 29, 2010)

I work in a printing company and we also make T-shirts and mugs etc. For the self weeding paper you run the printable sheet through a laser printer (we used our Epson 1400 with standard ink) and then you heat press the image onto a "clutch" sheet. You then heat press the fused sheets onto your T-shirt and peel it away leaving only the printed image. Voila, no more weeding.

The only downside is that it's rubbish! The image quality was very poor and it takes much much longer to produce the finished product than if you use dye-sub. We use the UK's largest supplier of Roland machine's/sublimation machines and products and they won't supply the self-weeding paper for the reason's I've stated. The technology just isn't stable enough.

Don't be put off by the price of sublimation printing. The image quality is better, and the ink's last for ages. You'll gain a good reputation faster if you supply quality t-shirts from the beginning. I'd recommend purchasing the Ricoh GX7000 printer over the Epson 1400 which uses the bulk feed system (we have both). It's far less hassle, head cleans are almost unnecessary (saving you ink) and it's faster and produces a more vibrant image. Plus it's a sublimation printer, rather than a modified Epson inkjet with an invalidated warranty. Our Epson was okay, but we gave up on it because it needed constant maintenance. For a full set of Ricoh sublimation ink cartridges you'll be looking at paying £240.


If you need any more help feel free to get in touch with me, I've a supplier I could recommend to you.


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## bornover (Apr 10, 2008)

Jamie, the Ricoh is not a made for sublimation printer. Ricoh's GelSprinter technology is sort of a blend of laser and inkjet. It is different but not specifically for sublimation.


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## Dynamic J (Jun 29, 2010)

bornover said:


> Jamie, the Ricoh is not a made for sublimation printer. Ricoh's GelSprinter technology is sort of a blend of laser and inkjet. It is different but not specifically for sublimation.


Hi Mark,

Okay fair point maybe I didn't phrase myself correctly. 

It's not sold as a sublimation printer by Ricoh, what I meant is that it can produce sublimation prints without any mods, straight out the box - so long as you use the SubliJet R cartridges. These are a higher viscosity ink and have been formulated specifically to work with the Ricoh GX5050N/GX7000 printers.

I was comparing it with the bulk feed systems out there, the Epson in this case, where it isn't capable of producing sub-prints unless the bulk feed mod is applied. And when this mod is applied, Epson no longer cover the printer (which I know is easy to get round should you need to send it back to Epson - like I did ).

Anyway, the Ricoh is a great machine and we swear by it! It works out cheaper in the long run too as the maintenance requirements are so low. 

Sorry for any confusion


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## Lixhul (Aug 27, 2010)

Thanks for the great reply Jamie I shall look into that printer.

Yeh I have heared theres no point using self weeding unless you use inkjet dye-sub. Basically because of quality.

I cant afford a Vinyl cutter so this is the method I'm sort of aiming for. I mean I refuse to sell iron-on transfers


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## johnbol1 (Aug 19, 2010)

Dont you have to have subli t shirts though for subli prints, I mean you cant just go and get a regualr T at a regular price off the shelf an you? (poly cotton) 
The ones I have seen seem qute expensive.
and Am I right thinking you can only print on white Ts
John


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## bornover (Apr 10, 2008)

johnbol1 said:


> Dont you have to have subli t shirts though for subli prints, I mean you cant just go and get a regualr T at a regular price off the shelf an you? (poly cotton)
> The ones I have seen seem qute expensive.
> and Am I right thinking you can only print on white Ts
> John


For sublimation you have to print onto a polyester or polyester coated substrate. For garments, the higher the polyester content the better and more vibrant the colors will be. Obviously a 100% poly garment will provide the brightest colors. 

Not all poly garments or fabrics are created equal. SourceSubstrates' Vapor Apparel blanks and fabric is just about the best for sublimating. Other poly fabrics can still give you problems. I guess you just have to test things out.

Yes, you need to print onto white or a very light color fabric. If it has some color, even a very light one, it will skew your colors that you print. White is the best if you need true colors. To get a black garment in sublimation, for example, you need to print every inch of the fabric. A lot of sublimated garments are printed before the garment is sewn together so the basic color is other than white.

And yes, polyester is more expensive than cotton. Sublimation inks are expensive to, so the over all process is more expensive than screen printing.

This self-weeding topic is strange to me; I don't think what we are talking about has anything to do with "self-weeding". But since sublimation was brought up in this thread, I thought I would answer with real info on sublimation.


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## Conde_David (May 29, 2008)

This article should help regarding printers for
Sublimation.

[media]http://www.conde.com/wdg/Road-To-Sublimation-Success-SA-2009.pdf[/media]


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## royster13 (Aug 14, 2007)

It could cost you almost as much to get set-up with a sublimation printer and inks as it would an inexpensive plotter such as an Expert 24....

As far as cad cut heat press vinyl.....I have been getting 16.00 to 25.00 for a few stock designs I did up...They cost me 3.00 to 5.00 each...There is a good variety of very good quality heat press material available these days....The glitters, foils, etc. sell at a premium price....


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## Conde_David (May 29, 2008)

You can buy an e3300n and sublimation inks
for $440.


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## stevens07 (Aug 30, 2010)

Royce...I use heat transfers for my t shirts. How do you make your own stock designs to sell.


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## Virtualburn (Mar 24, 2011)

Thanks for great info here guys, I wonder if you could put me straight as the info I was actually looking for I can't find.

I have bought 200 Aluminium Business Cards for sublimation printing. I have an Epson S22 and I've done some promo shirts using heat transfer which have turned out great for the purpose they are meant for.

My main focus being Screen Print, I completely agree with @Dynamic J that you cannot skimp on quality.

My question is that with the transfer release paper it leaves part of the film covering the ink, with Sublimation is there specific paper you get that doesn't do this? I thought self-weeding was the term but now I'm not so sure.

My concern is that using the normal paper will leave a film over one side of the card.. not sure I want to byu a Sublimation CISS if this is the case.

I have already got a Dye ink CISS for S22. The idea was to buy an empty CISS system for another S22 and just use this for sublimation prints.

Thanks.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

agensop said:


> i dont believe it is, i have only heard of self weeding papers with laser transfers, so the need of sublimation angle would be news to me.
> 
> self weeding papers is pretty much what it says the only thing that comes off the paper is where the print is. i have heard of this for doing laser prints on dark shirts.


It's not "mainstream" but there is this stuff is a self weeding sublimation paper ...

Self Weeding Transfer Paper - AIP Printing Equipment and Supplies from Toronto, Canada

Technically it is a self weeding sublimation prep sheet, it is supposed to leave polymer only where sub ink is and then the self weeded poly is sublimatable.

And this stuff for regular inkjet

http://www.kisscutpaper.com/

And also a self weeding for ink jet non-sublimation inks made by Neenah (Image Clip Inkjet) but requires a B&W laser to create a mask.


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## Virtualburn (Mar 24, 2011)

Yes after reading details about that paper I found this on ebay.

ImageClip Self Weeding Laser Transfer Paper 8.5x11 100 on eBay (end time 02-Jun-11 22:20:46 BST)

Bit pricey for the UK and it seems it only uses Laser Printed images - can't see that lasting long.

Can somebody* please* just define why Sublimation print on shirts is any better than using Dye, Pigment or even plain old Ink Jet. Because is the only thing you can get to transfer it is paper that needs to be trimmed or weeded.. then as far as I can tell all these methods will have a horribly stiff covering..


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## stevietoon (Aug 4, 2008)

kisscut inkjet transfer paper is a self weeding paper for transfer printing onto light and white cotton. If used in conjunction with kisscut inks then washfastness of the image can be achieved in much the same was as it can with DTG printing. some people have had success using dyesub inks with kisscut paper and transfer pressing onto white cotton rather than polyester, with good results.


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## agensop (Dec 11, 2008)

the difference is essentially, the hand and they arent ment to go on the same fapbrics.

dye sub works on 100% polyester and poly blends. the dye in dye sub bonds with the polyester fibers leaving a print you can't feel. its best to always use 100% poly shirts be cause with the blends you images will wash out and fade when put in th washer because the dye cant bond to the natural cotton fibers.

doing a transfer is essntially welding melting an carrier sheet to a shirt. you can cut around it so there is less of the carrier being tranfered but its still there and you still can feel it. some tranfers can feel stiff and plasticy on the shirt and has a very heavy hand (especially opaques) some arent strechy or beathable and will crack and peel from the shirt over time. sublimation doesnt do this because you arent meling a carrier down you are bonding the ink to the individual fiber it essential becomes part of the shirt where as the other tranfers its just a piece of plastic laying on top of it.





Virtualburn said:


> Yes after reading details about that paper I found this on ebay.
> 
> ImageClip Self Weeding Laser Transfer Paper 8.5x11 100 on eBay (end time 02-Jun-11 22:20:46 BST)
> 
> ...


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## Virtualburn (Mar 24, 2011)

agensop said:


> sublimation doesnt do this because you arent meling a carrier down you are bonding the ink to the individual fiber it essential becomes part of the shirt where as the other tranfers its just a piece of plastic laying on top of it.


So are you saying that when using Sublimation the trasfer paper doesn't leave a layer of film it's just used as a carrier for the ink?

Sorry for the continued questioning, this is still a grey area for me as even after reading up on the differences between Dye, Pigment and Sublimation inks listed as three seperate entities, I've also come across sites advertising Dye Sublimation. I understand that Sublimation ink is to be used with 100% Polyester for the ebst results (apart from some cases as mentioned)

I just don't want to buy the wrong paper for the ink. I have one printer Epson S22 which is printing fine with normal Heat Transfer paper and the inkjet ink but I have purchased this CISS [ Cheap CISS Ink Systems for Epson printer: Epson S22 | Dye Ink | Cheap Printer Ink ] which I will continue to use the normal transfer paper.

I want to buy an empty CISS from the same supplier and buy some Sublimation ink to produce shirt and business cards (on Alluminium) but my concern was haveing the same film left over, expecially on the Business Cards.

I really appreciate the responses as slowly all the pieces are coming together and a clearer picture is forming.

vB

~ The 2nd CISS for sublimation ink will be running from a new S22 not the one being used for Inkjet/Dye ink


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

Virtualburn said:


> Yes after reading details about that paper I found this on ebay.
> 
> ImageClip Self Weeding Laser Transfer Paper 8.5x11 100 on eBay (end time 02-Jun-11 22:20:46 BST)
> 
> ...


Dye sublimation creates a molecular bond, whereas the other methods create a mechanical bond ... a sticker.

The Image clip papers weedfree "hand" is not too bad, you can feel it but not bad.

Conventional papers used for dye sublimation are simple papers, no polymers are released, just the dye once heated.

While sublimation is a superiour process in terms of quality, the other processes like pigment inks or toner can work on cheaper garments and there are dark solutions as well. Straight sublimation has to be done on white or light colors and cannot sublimate onto dark shirts.


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## stevietoon (Aug 4, 2008)

surprisingly kisscut seems to work on cotton tees with dyesub ink - cheaper than siblitees
this means that you could offer both types of tees. the fact that self weeds is positive too


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## Virtualburn (Mar 24, 2011)

stevietoon said:


> surprisingly kisscut seems to work on cotton tees with dyesub ink - cheaper than siblitees
> this means that you could offer both types of tees. the fact that self weeds is positive too


So is the ink I have bought from that link Dye Sublimation? or are there comparitve inks for sublimation as well as normal ??

ie : Inkjet, Dye, Pigment, Dye Sublimation, Pigment Sublimation ?


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## agensop (Dec 11, 2008)

it works because the inks are stuck behind in the carrier sheet NOT the shirt. the inks arent washing out because they are in the plasic. any ink that stuck in the plastic wont wash away. 



stevietoon said:


> surprisingly kisscut seems to work on cotton tees with dyesub ink - cheaper than siblitees
> this means that you could offer both types of tees. the fact that self weeds is positive too


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

Virtualburn said:


> So is the ink I have bought from that link Dye Sublimation? or are there comparitve inks for sublimation as well as normal ??
> 
> ie : Inkjet, Dye, Pigment, Dye Sublimation, Pigment Sublimation ?


If the link you are referring to is for "Kiss Cut" the Kiss Cut inks don't look to me to be sublimation.

KISSGOODBYETOCUTTING


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## stevietoon (Aug 4, 2008)

kisscut inks are not dye sublimation inks. kisscut paper has a special water based coating that lifts the ink off the paper and transfers it to the cotton tee shirt as see on the videos on the site you refer to. 
the fact is that Dye sublimation ink will work with the kisscut transfer paper means that those with dyesub systems could if they wished use kisscut paper and dyseub ink to print onto cotton shirts


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## Virtualburn (Mar 24, 2011)

mgparrish said:


> If the link you are referring to is for "Kiss Cut" the Kiss Cut inks don't look to me to be sublimation.


This is the ink I bought. INK


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## stevietoon (Aug 4, 2008)

looks like standard inkjet dye to me; not dye sublimation and not kisscut; kisscut is pigmented ink


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## Virtualburn (Mar 24, 2011)

stevietoon said:


> looks like standard inkjet dye to me; not dye sublimation and not kisscut; kisscut is pigmented ink


So I wouldn't be able to use this with Kisscut (just read the spec, looks good) I would only be able to use standard transfer paper?


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## stevietoon (Aug 4, 2008)

you couldnt guarantee the washfastness with this ink that you have. the kisscut ink would be washfast as it is designed to be; your ink will be primarily for paper i would imagine
if it turns out that your ink IS dyesublimation ink then you should be ok. i have heard of people using kisscut with dyesublimation inks on cotton t shirts. i know kisscut will NOT work on other traditional dyesub substrates and objects such as mugs etc.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

Virtualburn said:


> This is the ink I bought. INK


That is not sub ink.

Dye ink is not the same as dye sublimation ink. 

Most inkjet printers use dye ink standard and are provided with the printer. Those dye inks you refer to are design to be a cheap replacement ink for normal printing use.


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## agensop (Dec 11, 2008)

yes you can if you are talking about this site.

KISSGOODBYETOCUTTING

KISSGOODBYETOCUTTING

and i quote

*Which printers can be used?*
Any Epson desktop printer can be used with the KissCut system, but KissCut
provide complete systems for the Epson R265, R1800 and the 4400/4800
series of printers. KissCut Inks are available in a range of bulk bottles for use
with a wide range of bulk ink systems.

*Do I have to use KissCut Inks?*
No - the KissCut process is not ink specific. However, KissCut inks are specially
designed to give maximum wash fastness to the applied image and are
priced extremely competitively. To be sure of optimum results we strongly
recommend that the full KissCut system is used.





Virtualburn said:


> So I wouldn't be able to use this with Kisscut (just read the spec, looks good) I would only be able to use standard transfer paper?


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## shakey1 (Mar 18, 2011)

i have just bought kisscut paper that is "not ink specific" but when i print on it using pigment ink its like trying to print on an oily surface. the image seperates. so i have fallen at the first fence, havent even made it to the t shirt.....any one else had this ? very frustrating.


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## LB (Jul 25, 2009)

stevietoon said:


> kisscut inks are not dye sublimation inks. kisscut paper has a special water based coating that lifts the ink off the paper and transfers it to the cotton tee shirt as see on the videos on the site you refer to.
> the fact is that Dye sublimation ink will work with the kisscut transfer paper means that those with dyesub systems could if they wished use kisscut paper and dyseub ink to print onto cotton shirts


Huh? In order for the dye sublimation process to work it has to be on polyester garments, it simply will not work on a 100% cotton garment. Just because you can transfer the ink, doesn't mean you can infuse it into cotton fibers.


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