# Defective rhinestones & rhinestuds....what is the percentage?



## ashamutt (Feb 22, 2008)

OK...this is to all of the RHINESTONE/stud experts out there!!!


I have a lot - and I mean A LOT - of rhinestone & rhinestud samples to test!
(from Korean & USA companies)

I was wondering what the "percentage" of defective stones/studs I might be able to expect?

Defects such as....

*1.* What is the "fall off during wash/dry" percentage?

*2.* What is the "stone separating from the glue" percentage? (_stones still in the bag that is - - i.e stones coming apart before pressing_)

*3.* Defectively "shaped" stones - percentage?



Here is an example of question #1 ....

If I press a - let's say for example - 500 stone count shirt... 100% cotton & NON-ribbed material...what is the "fall off" I can expect after wash/dry?
none, 1 stone , 10 stones, 50 stones??
Or
1%? 
2%? 
10%...???


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## rhinestonetransf (Feb 11, 2009)

1.You should have none as far as the fall off rate you might have one or two shirts out of 500 with a stone that falls off but even at that rate we would start to check why! 

2. This is more common than any of the three but still not that often. We check each transfer before we press or ship them to make sure they have glue. You will run into a few per bag that don't but when your talking about 500 grs and you have 5 - 10 stones without glue in the bag it is so small a number it is not a big deal. 

3.We have only had one bag of stones in three years have the glue come apart from the stone. We have run into a bag (500 grs per bag) or two that has a problemwith defectively shaped stones and it wasn't the stone it was the glue that was shaped past the stone but not defectively shaped stones in each bag - It you go with machine cut stones you shouldn't have a problem if you go with the molded stones you will have a problem. 

This is our experience hope it helps.


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## Mistyann (Dec 28, 2009)

I recently bought stones and made 2 shirts. I used approx 2 gross of the stones. BOTH shirts lost stones in the first wash. (2 on one, and I just found out one on the one I made my mom) no drying. The crystal came off the metal disc. (metal disc left on the shirt). Seller of stones says this is common and the stones are not defective, and to just fix the shirt. I've not had this happen before. Is this standard for the industry?


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## ashamutt (Feb 22, 2008)

Well....I surely thought we would have more replies by now...since so many people are pressing designs...and some of the designs surpassing 5000 stones/studs! 
(_maybe they are busy w/ orders ...hopefully_) 

Anyway, I have emailed all of my suppliers - Korean & American - and hopefully by weeks end I will have some answers.
I will update as soon as I hear back.


Thanks rhinestonetransf for your wonderful explanation and answers!!! 
It has made some things very clear to me and I hope to others as well!!!!!


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## Mistyann (Dec 28, 2009)

I emaild Shine Art to see if the stones seperating is something that should be happening . They said that when the primer that goes between the glass and the foil isn't pressed right they fall apart. So, the batch I got was defective.


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## ashamutt (Feb 22, 2008)

Mistyann said:


> I emaild Shine Art to see if the stones seperating is something that should be happening . They said that when the primer that goes between the glass and the foil isn't pressed right they fall apart. So, the batch I got was defective.


Thanks Misty! 

Did they(shineart) mention anything about their return policy?


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## Mistyann (Dec 28, 2009)

I didn't ask about that, but they're a reputable company. I'd imagine they'd accept returns on defective items. The person I bought from is an individual I think....I don't know, but I've learned my lesson.


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## ashamutt (Feb 22, 2008)

I would do EVERYTHING possible to get your money returned.
Defective is defective....and a good, honest business would return your money as well as your shipping charges!
I am so sorry this has happened to you.
I have heard of people being out 1000.00 or more...... 

Please, keep us abreast of the situation..... And what the supplier decides to do.


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## CyberSultan (Aug 25, 2008)

ashamutt said:


> Please, keep us abreast of the situation..... And what the supplier decides to do.


I can let you know what the supplier would do, as she purchased these from our company.

This started with an email stating that there was a problem with 2 rhinestones on a garment with one particular item received on a larger order. Since the joint between the foil and the glass is the weakest point on a rhinestone, I asked follow-up questions including whether it occurred on more than one garment. It was mentioned that it was two stones on one garment. No mention of any other issues. We did not consider this to be a major defect. For this particular stone, she purchased a half-bag consisting of 250 gross. We have since tested the stones from the other half of the bag from the same batch without any issues. She was concerned about having ruined a garment...and I tried to assist by suggesting that she place two new rhinestones on the garment (which you can do right over the top of the two areas that still had the foil glued to the garment) to fix that issue and salvage the garment.

Although we quality check our products, we realize that things can happen for which we have a 20-day exchange/return policy for defective products. She was past our 20-day exchange/return (it's been about two months). However, we did offer a refund for this item, even though we did not consider the 250 gross bag to be generally defective. In our communications, it had occurred on one reported garment (and we have not seen any issues in testing the other half bag of the same batch for this particular rhinestone color and size). She was not happy with the first refund offer, which was determined based on having another product on the same order that was heavily discounted when purchased together with this item. However, we decided the best approach was to provide a full refund on this item and not worry about the discount on the other item. This part we could have handled better, but an attempt was made to offer a full refund.

Instead of agreeing to return this item for the full refund, she has decided to dispute not just the one item she had problems with, but has disputed the entire amount of the order with her credit card company. When asked again to return the item for refund, she indicated that she would let the credit card company work it out.

It is always a constant goal to help customers in providing both a good product as well as training. Sometimes there is an issue with someone not applying something correctly. But there could also be an issue with a product which needs to be resolved as well. We do appreciate when customers read an exchange/return policy before purchasing and try to work things out before going so quickly to a credit card dispute. It is also difficult on a business when a customer disputes the entire amount of an order when the return is dealing with only one item on the order. That leaves the customer with good product from that order that they can then continue using and making profit from without paying our company anything in the end.

We have provided the emails to PayPal to show what communications took place and hopefully the credit card company will not grant a $450 refund for the entire order when it was a $65 item that she had issues with and that we asked her more than once to please return for a full refund.

We greatly value our customers and strive to help each of our customers to be successful in their rhinestone businesses.


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## ashamutt (Feb 22, 2008)

Thanks for the info Cyber.

I am waiting on all of the Korean & American companies to respond to the above questions.

It is frightening to wonder how many "returns' I might possibly have concerning defective stones/studs.
eeeeeek!

I do know that the "fall off" rate will be higher the _smaller_ the hotfix item......
This is correct yes?
(for washable items that is)


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## CyberSultan (Aug 25, 2008)

ashamutt said:


> Thanks for the info Cyber.
> 
> I am waiting on all of the Korean & American companies to respond to the above questions.
> 
> ...


Hopefully you should not experience many returns.

Some causes of having stones fall off would be to not press them correctly (glue did not adhere to garment properly), loosening the bonds of the stones by lifting the hotfix tape off too quickly right after pressing, or the stones get snagged on something and knocked off. With smaller stones, if the heat source being used to apply the transfers is not reaching the smaller stones well enough because there are larger stones in the same design, that can cause an issue as well and attribute to a higher fall off rate.


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## Mistyann (Dec 28, 2009)

LOL. 
You offered to give ne $20.00 of my $65.00 dollars back and said the stones were not defective. The only recourse I had was to dispute your defective stones with my credit card company. At that point I only knew of the 1 shirt, my own. The next day was my sons basketball game, where I saw the other shirt I made with a stone missing and the foil left.
When I contacted my credit card cmpany, I told them it was a part of the order that I wanted to dispute. I guess their process is to dispute the whole amount and adjust it later. I don't know.
I have returned all your stones except the clear. I have stated this to the credit card company with a full accounting of what was sent back and the amount they cost.
In no way would I want to keep your stones and chance them falling off a customers shirt.
You were very rude in your emails, and still fail to admit you have a quality problem on these particular stones. So I assume you will continue to sell these. It is a defective product, and you should pull them from your stock.


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## allhamps (Mar 15, 2007)

Since these are "man made", you should always expect something to fail. HOWEVER, if the stones are truely of good quality, the "wash off rate", "stones separating from glue in bag", and "defective stone shaping", should be minimal. I EXPECT any of these situations to occur LESS THAN 1% FOR EVERY 500 STONES I USE FOR THE 3MM AND 4MM SIZES. MAYBE AT 1-2% FOR THE 2MM STONES BECAUSE THEY ARE SMALLER, THUS EASIER TO MISS IN THE PRODUCTION PROCESS.

If I open a bag of stones and start seeing separate glue dots, it's going back immediately. I have learned the hard way, that is a DEFINITE sign of bad stones. If they separate in the bag, just imagine what will happen when they are washed??.

While I do Q/C on all the designs I prepare before shipping and/or pressing, it is not possible to tell if a stone will fail after it leaves your shop. I ALWAYS include spare stones with my orders, and I ALWAYS offer a FULL refund and/or replacement item. Just send the defect back and we'll resolve it. I can't afford to blow off customers and integrity is a LARGE part of my marketing.

I think the bigger part of this is not how many you expect to fail, but how often you expect the stones NOT to fail/be defective.


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## Mistyann (Dec 28, 2009)

Thanks,
Have you had a problem with the crystal seperating from the foil? It's not a glue issue, because the foil is still stuck on the shirts.


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## allhamps (Mar 15, 2007)

Sorry, but when I said the glue dots separating, that's what I meant. Sometimes they separate in the bag, you have just the crystal with the foil showing and them you have a bunch of little glue dots in the bag. That's bad news!!. I think every now and then, I've had a crystal separate from the foil AFTER it was ironed on and then washed, but this too should be few and far between in instances. Because they are "made", you can't guarantee they will last forever, but they should last a long time if they are quality and it should not happen often. I did have a batch of light siam stones that this happened on and I concluded, right or wrong, that the supplier slipped me some Chinese grade stones. I don't use that supplier any more, and I have gone through approximately 10,000 light siam stones from my new supplier, in all sizes, and to my knowledge, this has not happened yet. I'm keeping my fingers crossed as I write this because as soon as I hit the post button, someone will call me and say their stones failed.

I say all this to acknowledge that a few stones will come off eventually, but I personally don't think they should be coming off, separating, or whatever, at a very high rate in a single bag of stones. To me that means the stones are defective and you should be able to have them replaced or refunded without questions. I feel that way even if they came from me


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## Mistyann (Dec 28, 2009)

Thanks,
That's what I thought. I've used transfers and stones for several months now, and have not had that happen. Then to have 3 out of 2oo or 300 stones seperate from the foil in one wash. 
Thanks goodness I had only made 2 shirts with these stones, and they were for myself and my Mom. 
When you get your stones, do you test each batch, or do you just trust once you've found a good supplier that the stones are ok?


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## ashamutt (Feb 22, 2008)

Thanks Slick!!!!
Great policy!
Great congenial customer service is what keeps one in business for the long haul!


Great idea concerning "_sending a few extra stones_" with each order ....reminds me of the department store mini ziplocks attached to each shirt, dress, bag. You know.....with extra buttons, snaps, beads, sequins, etc.
I now plan on doing this!
THANKS
!!


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## Mistyann (Dec 28, 2009)

Where do you get your little zipies? U line? Thanks for the tip! I will definately start doing this too!


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## ashamutt (Feb 22, 2008)

Mistyann said:


> Where do you get your little zipies? U line? Thanks for the tip! I will definately start doing this too!


Uline and also Ebay  http://cgi.ebay.com/100-Mini-Zip-Lo...emQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item45f03e0660

or smaller
http://cgi.ebay.com/100-Mini-Zip-Lo...emQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item45ed158378


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## Mistyann (Dec 28, 2009)

I just saw the 1 x 1 on ulline for $12 per 1000.
I'm thinking about getting the business card size. That way I can put the directions in there as well. I think they had those for $10.


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## Mistyann (Dec 28, 2009)

Slick,
You said you expect a less than 1% failure per 500 stones....did you mean 500 gross? 500 stones would be 1 shirt.


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## allhamps (Mar 15, 2007)

It's more so trust/relationship with my supplier than testing every bag in every shipment. Some bags I leave in tack for my bulk customers, and of course, I open some bags for smaller retail sales and to use in designs. If I crack open a bag, I do use some of the stones for a "test" design that I can throw in the washer and try. This keeps my supplier honest, I hope, and may give me a heads up on a bad batch BEFORE it's an upset customer letting me know.

I started throwing in the extra stones because, what else, but a bad experience. I did a rush order for some Michigan designs, obviously in blue, and missed the fact that one of the designs had a GREEN stone in it. Apparently it ruined the customers ENTIRE life so she sent ALL 25 transfers back!! Ergo, include a few extra stones for every kind and color in the design


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## allhamps (Mar 15, 2007)

Misty, I did mean per 500 stones. Here's an example. I did an order with 30 of the attached design. I don't recall offhand how many stones, but I know it exceeds 500. In those 30 transfers, I pulled 5 of the 4mm crystal because they did not have any, or enough, glue covering on the back. I did not have to pull ANY of the 4mm light siam or the 3mm jet. That's the kind of consistency/confidence I want in the stones I use.


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## Mistyann (Dec 28, 2009)

okay,
We're talking about 2 different things.i 'm talking about the crystal coming off the foil. Have you had this happen? I can put up a pic, but what happened was the crystal came off and just left the metal disk on the shirt.


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## allhamps (Mar 15, 2007)

Yes, I have. Then you are left with shiny foil dots in the middle of your design. However, I do know that the scenario you mentioned is MORE likely to happen as time goes on, and AFTER many, many washes. It should NOT be happening after one or two washes - that's just a bad batch


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## CyberSultan (Aug 25, 2008)

Or just an issue with a couple stones in the batch. I personally have continued testing stones from the exact same batch as Mistyann (this particular stone color and size from the same bag that was split to provide the qty she ordered), but have not experienced this issue with any of those tests. We are conducting these tests because we would never want to see a customer receive defects in a product and we would want to escalate this with the manufacturer if this were to be a larger issue with one particular stone and size they are manufacturing. In any case, she was asked to return this particular stone, so hopefully this will be resolved for the customer.


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## allhamps (Mar 15, 2007)

I think the thing to remember here is that RHINESTONES ARE A MAN MADE PRODUCT, THUS THERE WILL BE SOME STONES THAT FAIL. However, if the supplier is truely making a good quality product, that rate of failure will be very minimal initially, and will increase, of course, as the garment gets washed more often. If per chance you do run into a "bad batch" of stones, or what you perceive to be a "bad batch" of stones, then it's going to come down to the integrity and the customer service policies of the company/person you purchased from, and their PERCEPTION of a "bad batch". Yes its irritating and disappointing when you've done a job and something like stones falling off ruin an item or two, but we have to try to reach a solution to that issue that's amicable for all involved. Sometimes you can and sometimes you can't.


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## allhamps (Mar 15, 2007)

Here's another source for the small plastic bags: Where to Buy All-Clear Resealable Bags


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## CyberSultan (Aug 25, 2008)

Thanks for the links as it's nice to have different places to get supplies from. 

I was able to find some at Joann's when I needed some last. I also use Uline a lot as they have a huge selection of products and very fast service.


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## Mistyann (Dec 28, 2009)

Thanks slick! 
I made up some bags today. I added care instructions and directions for replacing stones should the need arise, and a business card. 
Do you have an suggestions for websites. I have a go daddy site....but it doesn't show up in google search. Right now I'm mainly using my facebook page as a showcase for my items.


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## ashamutt (Feb 22, 2008)

I just received this from www.ziohotfix.com ... (paid 35.00usd shipping for Free catalog & samples)

"_Hello._
_In fact, the percentage is differnt depending on the production._
_So I cannot guarentee or sure what percentage of defective stone in the parcel._
_But we usually consider 2% loss to make up the bad quality in a bag._
_And there has been no problem in our business._

_But rarely my customer claimed our quality when our production's circumstance was not good in monsoon season or high humid. _
_In that case, we supply one free bag of rhinestone without any charge to do not make any damage to my customers._

_Anyway if I have to answer about your questions, please consider 2% of bad quality in a bag due to the fall off or defective shape_."


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## ashamutt (Feb 22, 2008)

I just received this from www.mskoreahotfix.com ... (FREE shipping! for Free catalog a & samples)

"
*Defects such as....*

_*1.* What is the "fall off during wash/dry" percentage?_
_*Our products have passed washing test for 15 times.*_

_*2.* What is the "stone separating from the glue" percentage? (stones still in the bag that is - - i.e stones coming apart before pressing)_
_*China stone has this kind of problem. But our rhinetone hardly separated form the glue.*_

_*3.* Defectively "shaped" stones - percentage?_
_*Honestly, there are some defective stone for shaped stone. Because glass is easy to be broken.*_
_*The process is very difficult.*_
*Defetive percentage is defend on shape but regulary 10~15%.*

"


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