# 2 heads or 4, that is the question!!



## trevmcdev (Aug 25, 2010)

Hi folks, would really appreciate some feedback from the guys who have been in the industry for a while.

I have 2 single head Toyota ESP 9000s and I am at the stage where I wish to add more heads to the setup as demand increases. My question is, should I go for a 2 head machine (even 2 more single heads) or is the next logical step to go for a 4 head machine??

I realise this is dependant upon workload etc, I am thinking more along the lines of which allows most 'flexibility' with the setup and production as not all my jobs to date are large numbers of garments, but I hope that to increase down the line!

Hopefully my question makes sense, thanks!!

Trev


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## lizziemaxine (Nov 14, 2007)

If you have the room and the money, go with the 4 head. Better to be running only 2 heads of a 4 head, than to need 4 heads and only have 2 when you have big jobs to complete.


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## logoadvantage (Nov 16, 2009)

In most brands the 4 head machines cost alot less per head than a 2 head model. 

Linking single heads is not the same as having a true multi head machine and its not as productive and cost more in the long run.

If you have enough business to justify the use of a 4 head machine then it would really pay off in saved time and payroll. 

One thing to consider is most brands offer more than one 4 head machine. A Standard and Stretch with the stretch being the only one that will do larger jacket back files.

I have two 4 head stretch machines myself and we are very glad we purchased the larger machines since we do a fair amount of sweatshirts, applique and jacket back embroidery which would not be possible on the smaller model.

Buying the right size machine is simply a numbers game. I would have to see how many orders you had on a regular basis that was above 8 to 12 pieces to see if I would suggest buying the 4 head machine. 

Even if you were growing into this machine you would also find yourself being more competitive and much faster in production with equipment like a 4 head if your just running a single head now.

Good Luck. I remember when I purchased my first multi head machine many years ago.


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## trevmcdev (Aug 25, 2010)

Thank you both for the excellent info! Given me plenty to think about there


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## Jacket Express (Nov 13, 2012)

If you can go 4 head its amazing how much faster your production is and you are able to pick up more work. I had that same choice to make 4 years ago went ahead and bit the bullet best decision I made!


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## SouthernEdgeEMB (Apr 22, 2013)

i would go with 4 Toyotas, versus a 4 head machine, better to add to what you have now.


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## logoadvantage (Nov 16, 2009)

Thomas,

Have you ever owned a real multi head machine yourself ?

I have tried it both ways and to be honest I kinda thought the same way as you do now until I owned a real multi head machine and now I would NEVER go back.

I think there are cases where having high numbers of single heads are the right answer but for most shops and jobs I think a that a real multi head machine is not only more productive but also cost less as well.

I still own 5 single head machines but we run all our big jobs on multi head machines.

The only machine companies that push Mutliple Single Heads as the answer only make single head machines.

Really wanting to open this up as a discussion since I find this to be a topic where there are lots of theorys and opinions on the matter. 

I have spent my money both ways, and done testing both ways as well and found that a real multi head is much more productive, but thats my shop not everyone will have the same reasons or results.


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## binki (Jul 16, 2006)

We were in the same boat last year. We could either purchase 3 single head machines or a 4 head for the same price. The 3 singles came with software to run them as a single unit. We opted for the 4 head and it was the best decision we could have made other than going with a 6 head which would be all we could fit in here. 

Go with the bigger machine and run less heads when you have the need. You will find that you will quickly fill this thing to capacity.


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## cathyr (Feb 10, 2009)

I would go for the 4 head. I run a multi head shop, including 12 heads, and our 4 head is a work horse. The beauty of this machine is quick load and unload, and the ability to watch all 4 heads easily for problems. Only 1 operator is needed for hooping, running the machine, trimming and boxing. It is the perfect size. I have a friend who has three 6 heads, and swears he would never own a 12 head. He has a valid point. On the other hand the 12 head has monster production capabilty. We sew mostly hats so it is suitable for us. I do like the suggestion of the stretch capability. This is enormously important. The more items you can handle the more avenues for income.


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## trevmcdev (Aug 25, 2010)

Thank so much everyone for taking the time to reply!! This was exactly the kind of response I was hoping to get from folk who have been down this road already


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## SouthernEdgeEMB (Apr 22, 2013)

i have learned that , 4 single heads, like the toyota, running the software, acts as a 4 head machine, or i can run two heads for lets say left chest logos, and the other two for hats, where are a 4 head machine you can only two, hats or flats at same time. With a 4 head machine, if the thread breaks, the whole machine stops, does that really speed up production, at least with 4 single heads , if a thread breaks, three will still be running. JUSt my opinion , Please dont shoot the messenger. Have i seen a 4 head machine in operation yes, does it get good production, yes, but i have also seen them be a night mare. when the 4 head goes down, all of them go down. where as 4 single head machines, can be set up to operate as a 4 head machine. but if one goes down, you will have three up and running.


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## logoadvantage (Nov 16, 2009)

SouthernEdgeEMB said:


> i have learned that , 4 single heads, like the toyota, running the software, acts as a 4 head machine, or i can run two heads for lets say left chest logos, and the other two for hats, where are a 4 head machine you can only two, hats or flats at same time. With a 4 head machine, if the thread breaks, the whole machine stops, does that really speed up production, at least with 4 single heads , if a thread breaks, three will still be running. JUSt my opinion , Please dont shoot the messenger. Have i seen a 4 head machine in operation yes, does it get good production, yes, but i have also seen them be a night mare. when the 4 head goes down, all of them go down. where as 4 single head machines, can be set up to operate as a 4 head machine. but if one goes down, you will have three up and running.


Thomas I am not shooting the messenger. We learn from others and from making mistakes. Debating things is a great way to pick up ideas and we can not agree and that does not make it personal. So please do not take this as personal in nature. Too often people think it is if someone does not agree with their post.

With that said I will tell you I tried EXACTLY what you are talking about. At one point I had around a dozen single head machines and not only was it not productive but it made us work twice as hard in production.

What that theory leaves out is the rythem that you get into when running machines. When you run multi single heads they are all stopping and starting at different times and your loading and unloading one machine at a time. I found that to NOT be very productive. When we run production on Multi Head machines we hoop the next run and have it sitting on the machine. The machine stops, we strip 4 hoops off, load 4 new ones on and hit the start button all at one time. 

Then you get to COST. 4 single heads cost alot more than a 4 head machine so when you factor that into the picture it does have an effect. 

Rarely does something happen on a 4 head machine that you could not run the other heads if something broke. There is one main motor (Never replaced one) but if that broke then the entire machine would be down but otherwise if a head goes down then 99% of the time you could still run the other heads. I have done that many times myself until I had the time to fix or adjust what was needed on the one head.

I have personally done this both ways. Multi Single Heads vs Multi Head and for a while I was very convinced that single heads was the answer (on paper) until I actually owned a multi head at which time we found out something totally different.

The benefit to the software on the Multiple Single Heads linked is so that you can send the file to the different machines all at one time. I do that now as well without machines being linked and this has been a HUGE time saver. I set up the shop WIRELESS and made all the machines see all the production files and it was the best thing I have done in years !

I have heard the sales pitch about multi single heads and it sounds great but if it were really true then the very large production shops would be full of single head machines and believe me they are not, because they like myself know it would kill their production.


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## Liberty (Jul 18, 2006)

Interesting points being made. After 20 years in the embroidery business all I can say is you are both right...

IF my average order size were relatively low, say under 8-12 pieces, then multiple single heads make sense. Or maybe a two head and multiple singles.

If my average order size were 12 or more then the 4 head will eat the singles for lunch with higher long term production per payroll dollar.

BUT, I would never own a shop without at least one single head. 

And one thing to keep in mind is labor costs. If you try running four different jobs on four single heads, the chaos factor will wear out event the best of operators. As the number of heads scales up, you need more operators for, let's say, 12 singles vs 1-12 head.

The old argument about a thread break stopping all four vs only one single is hogwash too. In this day and age of precision thread control and software that can precisely control stitch density, short stitches and needle penetration proximity, if you are experiencing thread breaks that often then you need to find the problem. If we can't turn 50-100,000 stitches without a thread break we start looking for the problem. Back in the days of paper tape machines it was often more work to edit the tape than to just forge ahead and deal with the thread breaks but now we can do design edits on the fly.

My approach would be almost wholly based upon average order size. For multi piece jobs we try to look for three turns on the machine minimum. By this I mean if an order is for six we usually run it on a two head. An order for 12 goes on a four head. There are lots of exceptions. Small stitch count designs that turn over fast we try to base it on the time needed to hoop the next batch. We even run a multi head with heads turned off it it keeps things flowing.

The ultimate goal is to keep needles going up and down as efficiently as possible for the lowest labor cost.

But to go back to the original question, since you already have two singles then my advice would be to calculate your average order size, divide by three, and get a multi head as close to that number as possible. 

If you want to really get focused, break out all of your small orders, say three pieces or less. Those will still go on a single head even if you buy a four head. Make sure you have enough single heads to produce those orders in the numbers of hours available while maintaining your promised delivery times. 

Then take your multi piece orders, calculate the average and divide by three, go for that size machine for you multi piece orders.And know that with a multi head comes another person on the payroll.

This should give you a more precise number. Since you've been in business a while this type of data should be fairly easy to compile.

And I don't think I'd ever recommend the average shop buy bigger than an 8 head, probably no larger than a 6 head. Unless you are a contract shop dealing with large orders it probably doesn't make sense. Just find a contract shop for those occasional monster orders.

And don't overlook the point where it might make more sense to run a second shift, the incremental cost to do so can be surprisingly low.

Hey look at the bright size, you are contemplating the need for more production capability. That is a really good thing for which you should be congratulated.


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## logoadvantage (Nov 16, 2009)

Liberty said:


> Interesting points being made. After 20 years in the embroidery business all I can say is you are both right...
> 
> IF my average order size were relatively low, say under 8-12 pieces, then multiple single heads make sense. Or maybe a two head and multiple singles.
> 
> ...


Mark I agree with most of your points. I actually still own 5 single heads but thinking of getting a two head and getting rid of one single. Embroidery is a numbers game with the key being to match the equipment to the size runs you are doing most of the time. 

PS sure beats the days of 7 needle machines and punching on paper tapes !


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## Liberty (Jul 18, 2006)

Yep, it's all numbers. There is a major brand up the highway from me that has hundreds of single heads, all networked, bar coded tracking system, the works. Almost never do they see an order for more than one piece. A few blocks away another shop with one single head proofing machine and a warehouse full of 12 heads. Most of us are somewhere in between. I've sold off all of the larger machines through the "great recession" but it's time to go shopping since the number of larger orders is definately on the rise.

So the Big Three, in no particular order:

The death of paper tape!
Thread Trimmers!
Thread break sensors!

Oh, probably have to add tubular hoops in there as well. So I guess that makes it a big four list. Feel free to add. Makes me feel old. But wait, I am old...


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## cathyr (Feb 10, 2009)

Love- love your list. I can remember running paper tapes- I in fact still have a paper tape reader up on the shelf! I would like to add to your list of big 3-


Magnetic bobbins by Filtec. What a difference they have made


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## Liberty (Jul 18, 2006)

Cathy, what differences did you notice with the bobbins? I tried them once but didn't see any difference in the way the machine ran. 




cathyr said:


> Love- love your list. I can remember running paper tapes- I in fact still have a paper tape reader up on the shelf! I would like to add to your list of big 3-
> 
> 
> Magnetic bobbins by Filtec. What a difference they have made


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## cathyr (Feb 10, 2009)

I find that the tension stays consistent till it literally runs out. We have less build up in the bobbin case. I use to pull my hair out teaching bobbin tensions, but these magnetic bobbins have eliminated that daily class I was giving.

I use to use the sideless coats but the wax buildup was messy and hard to clean out.


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## logoadvantage (Nov 16, 2009)

Im with Cathy. Love my Fil Tec bobbins ! Only thing we will even consider using these days !

Also love CLAMPS and Cap Frames 
(I remember when both first came out) 

Hoopmaster for those that use them was also a great tool. 

But the other BIG difference in the past 20 years.

Poly Thread, Used to be awful now its all we use !
Stronger, Color Fast, Bleech Resistant and actally has a finish like Rayon, where it used to be ugly.

For me figuring out the Wireless thing on the ZSKs was a HUGE deal and time saver as well and that we only did in the past year. We LOVE not having to send files to machines or take anything to a machine to get stuff into production. Save a file and all the equipment can see everthing we have saved ! Saves a TON of time !

Rick


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## Liberty (Jul 18, 2006)

Oh yeah, more AH HA moments...

Hoop Tech Cap Frames = Now caps are easy
Hoop Tech Clamps = Now everything is easy
Magnetic Frames = Now everything is faster

I agree, poly thread made a huge jump, we have no more rayon in the shop.

I'll take another look at the FilTec bobbins. But tension issues are almost nonexistent. We still use Coats pre-wound poly bobbins, swipe under the spring every time we change them out and they do great.

So let's not forget the Towa bobbin tension gauge...


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