# Flashed ink sticking to bottom of screen...



## rusty (Feb 9, 2007)

I recently had a problem with a 2 color print on a black shirt. I printed a white underbase, flashed it, then printed a green and flashed it. Then when I would print the 2nd color, red, some areas of the green would stick to the bottom of the red screen and pull off, revealing the white underbase. Does anybody know how to prevent this?

I let it cool completely, and it still pulled off. I eventually just had to settle for a wet-on-wet print which doesn't look quite as clean, but it was ok.

Could it be that I needed to flash the green longer? Shorter? Any other ideas?

Thanks,
Rusty


----------



## mreicher (Aug 10, 2006)

Why would the wet on wet not come out looking good? That's a head scratcher.

Can't offer any suggestions as I don't recall running into this. Could the green ink be an ink that doesn't want to be flashed like the high opacity inks?


----------



## BSApparel (Nov 6, 2007)

You probably didn't flash the previous ink long enough, would be my guess.


----------



## darwinchristian (Aug 24, 2007)

mreicher said:


> Could the green ink be an ink that doesn't want to be flashed like the high opacity inks?


yeah i'm stuck with the flashed green. Rusty- you tried printing without flashing the green and got negative results? 

sounds like you aren't getting the mesh to snap out of the ink. a lot could be said for a high tension screen and a stiff squeegie, but perhaps start by raising your off-contact?


----------



## darwinchristian (Aug 24, 2007)

darwinchristian said:


> sounds like you aren't getting the mesh to snap out of the ink. a lot could be said for a high tension screen and a stiff squeegie, but perhaps start by raising your off-contact?


and that makes absolutely no sense for it picking up the green. 

i should probably quit thinking after 9pm.

yeah i guess i'd adjust flash times. if you're dumping a lot of ink than it may take longer than if you were printing with a fine mesh. i just want the top layer of ink to gel... just enough time to where ink won't come up on your finger.


----------



## buzzbox (Oct 24, 2007)

your putting to much green down.


----------



## buzzbox (Oct 24, 2007)

or you have a cheap flash and your having to bake the ink.


----------



## rusty (Feb 9, 2007)

mreicher said:


> Why would the wet on wet not come out looking good? That's a head scratcher.


Sometimes when I do wet-on-wet and the colors are touching each other, they will kind of blur at the the contact border. I usually trap my colors just a tad to make registration a little easier, so that could be why.



mreicher said:


> Can't offer any suggestions as I don't recall running into this. Could the green ink be an ink that doesn't want to be flashed like the high opacity inks?


It was just a normal Triangle Kelly Green.


----------



## rusty (Feb 9, 2007)

darwinchristian said:


> yeah i guess i'd adjust flash times. if you're dumping a lot of ink than it may take longer than if you were printing with a fine mesh. i just want the top layer of ink to gel... just enough time to where ink won't come up on your finger.


It was dry on top, but I guess wet underneath. And keep in mind this was a flashed green on top of a flashed white. And it was the flashed green that was pulling off the flashed white. I guess the white base doesn't hold it quite as well as fabric holds the bottom white layer.


----------



## Rmatheson (Jul 12, 2006)

Thats why i do not use a underbase! If you flash to long the print will come out looking crapy. Make sure you flash the underbase for 30 sec, And you will have to let it cool down i use a fan to help speed up the cool down. Then go wet on wet.


----------



## rusty (Feb 9, 2007)

Rmatheson said:


> Thats why i do not use a underbase! If you flash to long the print will come out looking crapy.


You have to use an underbase if you want bright colors on a dark shirt.



Rmatheson said:


> Make sure you flash the underbase for 30 sec, And you will have to let it cool down i use a fan to help speed up the cool down. Then go wet on wet.


30 seconds will almost fully cure the underbase, which is not good when applying colors on top it. I'm not sure what benefit I would get out of that. It was the green ink I was having trouble with.


----------



## rusty (Feb 9, 2007)

buzzbox said:


> your putting to much green down.


could be. I think i was using a 156, but could have been 110. I'll have to check. I wouldn't think I would need higher than 156 would I?



buzzbox said:


> or you have a cheap flash and your having to bake the ink.


I'm using a BlackBody 18x18. I know it's not the most expensive, but I don't think it's a cheap one.


----------



## neato (Mar 21, 2006)

> Sometimes when I do wet-on-wet and the colors are touching each other, they will kind of blur at the the contact border. I usually trap my colors just a tad to make registration a little easier, so that could be why.


If you trap your colors, you need to flash between colors to get a crisp edge. It's time consuming! That's why I never trap. 

It sounds like you could be over flashing your underbase. You just want it to START gelling. So that when you touch the ink, nothing sticks to your finger. Don't go beyond that point. I think most ink gels at about 220 degrees. Get a laser temp gun to have better control over your curing process. Every print shop needs one.


----------



## D-Lab Jam (Nov 15, 2007)

Several possibilities.
The underbase may be over flashed, or maybe it is a glossy athletic white not made for underbase? Also, you may be using an ink that is tacky to begin with. Reduce ink slightly, and always use the least amount of ink as possible to get a thin deposit to reduce flash times. And as stated in another post, enough cannot be said about using high tension screens with minimal squeegee pressure.


----------



## rusty (Feb 9, 2007)

Thanks. I'm using Triangle Phoenix White for the underbase.


----------



## buzzbox (Oct 24, 2007)

triangle pheonix white is great, i have the smoothest concrete driveway on my block. the lawn needs a little work tho.


----------



## rusty (Feb 9, 2007)

buzzbox said:


> triangle pheonix white is great, i have the smoothest concrete driveway on my block. the lawn needs a little work tho.


I don't follow. I'm guessing that is a joke, but not sure what it means.


----------



## darwinchristian (Aug 24, 2007)

rusty said:


> I don't follow. I'm guessing that is a joke, but not sure what it means.


yeah i'm with Rusty. but for me it was a decent image of a chemically saturated driveway with three legged birds lounging in the yard with a stiff drink...


----------



## buzzbox (Oct 24, 2007)

phoenix white is only good for a boat anchor. i flash my underbase for about 1.5 to 2 sec.

get a white specially designed for flash only.


----------



## rusty (Feb 9, 2007)

buzzbox said:


> phoenix white is only good for a boat anchor. i flash my underbase for about 1.5 to 2 sec.


Thanks for explaining. I don't think anybody would have figured that out from your first post.

You're the first person I've ever heard say anything negative about Phoenix White. I've produced some great prints with Phoenix White, so I would strongly disagree that's it's only good for a boat anchor. But point taken: you don't like it.


----------



## buzzbox (Oct 24, 2007)

do you no how ink is made? what is in it? and so on.....
omg, the micron size of the pigment is one of the most fundamental factors in printing. why do you think the deposit of ink and curing problems are common with triangle white. 1 - you have to use a coarse mesh to get that bondo thru, 2 - if you do use the proper mesh you have to double and triple stroke that thick mess unless your reducing it, then you have gain problems either way it doesn"t make good production sense.

my base plates are printed thru a 230 mesh. flatter than my driveway.


----------



## darwinchristian (Aug 24, 2007)

buzzbox said:


> my base plates are printed thru a 230 mesh. flatter than my driveway.



buzzbox- well played. albeit a bit confusing for me. 

i ordered the wilflex buffalo white and had no idea it had a puffing agent in it and was forced back to my international coatings quart for lack of a better white underbase. newbie on the darks. always intereseted in comments on a good (or bad) white...


----------



## buzzbox (Oct 24, 2007)

international coatings has completley revamped there ink line. they are starting to listen to there suppliers, only took them 20 years to get the wax out of there ears.

when you buy white ink tell your supplier your printing thru a 320 mesh, no excuses it either goes thru smoothly or i am looking for another white. hehe, they will do there homework.

driveway was an inside joke, look at the first post.


----------



## rusty (Feb 9, 2007)

buzzbox said:


> do you no how ink is made? what is in it? and so on.....
> omg, the micron size of the pigment is one of the most fundamental factors in printing. why do you think the deposit of ink and curing problems are common with triangle white. 1 - you have to use a coarse mesh to get that bondo thru, 2 - if you do use the proper mesh you have to double and triple stroke that thick mess unless your reducing it, then you have gain problems either way it doesn"t make good production sense.


First of all, you can drop the superiority pretense. If you have so much knowledge, then why not just share it rather than making jokes at our expense and expecting us to decipher them.

2ndly, I never once said that Phoenix white was a good underbase. I said that I've produced many quality prints using it, and so have many other printers, so your comment that it's only good for a boat anchor is completely inaccurate. Or maybe that was another joke that none of us understood. My supplier said it was fine for an underbase, so I'm not the only idiot around.

Your 1st post was "your putting to much green down."
Your 2nd post was "or you have a cheap flash and your having to bake the ink."

Neither of those was correct either. Then you tell a guy over in the graphics forum (Here) that vector graphics have no point in T-shirt design. That's crazy.

So, sorry if I don't take your advice here as gospel.

By the way, back to the white ink issue and micron size of the pigment. The larger micron sizes are more opaque which is why they make them like that. The thinner whites that easily go through a 230 mesh are not very opaque. It's a tradeoff. Clearly you prefer the less opaque ink. But let's not try to tell everybody that the more opaque whites are useless.


----------



## buzzbox (Oct 24, 2007)

great statement rusty, one problem tho, somebody needs to tell triangle to put some titainium dioxide in there ink. without getting to technical they use a variety of blockers to create the opacity. i also retract my bondo statement, i used talcum powder in a resin base to print ice chest's for the igloo company. worked awsome. only wish triangle would have helped me at the time.


----------



## mreicher (Aug 10, 2006)

Someone doesn't like phoenix white. I've used it in the past without any problems. Seemed like a good all around white for underbasing or highlights. And I don't recall any issues pushing it through higher mesh counts.

In fact I do recall it being rather smooth and easier to work with than some of the whites I've used in the past.

And I could care less about the micron size of the pigment any ink manufacturer uses. That's more technical nonsense than seeing how it looks and how it works for me than I care for.

I tend to not delve into the mad scientist realm.


----------



## buzzbox (Oct 24, 2007)

why would you print triangle thru a high mesh count?


----------



## rusty (Feb 9, 2007)

buzzbox said:


> why would you print triangle thru a high mesh count?


We get it. You don't like Triangle. If you want to continue bashing Triangle because they didn't help you with your project, you are welcome to start another thread dedicated to it. But let's please keep this thread related to the issue at hand. It's not about whether Triangle will go through a high mesh count. I use it through a 156 mesh all the time and it works great. So that's not the problem here.


----------



## darwinchristian (Aug 24, 2007)

rusty said:


> But let's please keep this thread related to the issue at hand.



Rusty- 

did you try what Phillip suggested? It seemed like the most logical explanation for the issue. Just wondering how everything works out...


----------



## buzzbox (Oct 24, 2007)

this is about printing ink on flashed ink right. key word there is ink i think. imagine flashing the first color at 200 degrees, that's a low temp, you dont even need a cool down. the ink you are using is poly vynal chloride (PVC) plastic. think in terms of liquid plastic not in terms of traditional ink. if plastic gets to hot it will stick and/or release. ink is ink who cares who makes it, if it won't cure at a low temp you have to wait for it to cool off. this takes a long time is some cases. try misting it with a water after you flash if you want to continue to use triangle ink. why try and fix something that doesn't work, go get any ink that will cure at a low temp.


----------



## jlcanterbury (Jul 26, 2007)

rusty... not sure if we have this all figured out or not. If none of the previously stated advice works, you might simply try and use this spray in the area that the green was printed- 
Sprayway 945 Silicone Spray to prevent ink build up on screen.

it should provide a lubricant barrier between the ink and the screen that would prevent any sticking. Very simple and should be effective...


----------



## rusty (Feb 9, 2007)

darwinchristian said:


> Rusty-
> 
> did you try what Phillip suggested? It seemed like the most logical explanation for the issue. Just wondering how everything works out...


Are you referring to not overflashing the underbase? I flash just like he said, just to where it's not wet to the touch. I usually err on the side of underflashing rather than over-flashing, because I know that can cause problems.

However it's not really something I can try again at the moment because I'm finished with the job. I was just asking after the fact so that I might avoid it in the future.


----------



## rusty (Feb 9, 2007)

jlcanterbury said:


> rusty... not sure if we have this all figured out or not. If none of the previously stated advice works, you might simply try and use this spray in the area that the green was printed-
> Sprayway 945 Silicone Spray to prevent ink build up on screen.
> 
> it should provide a lubricant barrier between the ink and the screen that would prevent any sticking. Very simple and should be effective...


Good idea. I will definitely keep that in mind next time. I actually have some of that already, but didn't think of using it when I had the problem. It does logically seem that it would have kept it from sticking to the screen.


----------



## broke1010 (Nov 7, 2007)

rusty said:


> I recently had a problem with a 2 color print on a black shirt. I printed a white underbase, flashed it, then printed a green and flashed it. Then when I would print the 2nd color, red, some areas of the green would stick to the bottom of the red screen and pull off, revealing the white underbase. Does anybody know how to prevent this?
> 
> I let it cool completely, and it still pulled off. I eventually just had to settle for a wet-on-wet print which doesn't look quite as clean, but it was ok.
> 
> ...


too much green,not cooled down enough,that color has alot of flo yellow in it which makes it tacky after flash


----------



## rusty (Feb 9, 2007)

broke1010 said:


> too much green,not cooled down enough,that color has alot of flo yellow in it which makes it tacky after flash


If I let cool any longer, I be down to about 1 shirt every 30 mintues. I let it cool down a long time, and it still stuck.


----------



## printandprint (Sep 24, 2007)

You may be pushing far too much green through the ink. Is this an automatic press? If so, cut back your pressure by a lot. If it is manual press, then um.... I'm not sure. 

If ink goes through the shirt and leaves an imprint on the platen, then that is too much ink. (opinion)

Observed a similar problem with top coat white. Troubleshooted for quite a long time and tried a bunch of things. Silicone spray is a workaround but isn't the solution. Have to re-coat almost after almost every impression. 

In this case, the solution was the put down a lot less ink (both underbase and top coat), but it was not a manual press.


----------



## rusty (Feb 9, 2007)

printandprint said:


> You may be pushing far too much green through the ink. Is this an automatic press? If so, cut back your pressure by a lot. If it is manual press, then um.... I'm not sure.
> 
> If ink goes through the shirt and leaves an imprint on the platen, then that is too much ink. (opinion)
> 
> ...


It's a manual press and I was printing through a 156 mesh. So I don't think it's too much green. The green was not going through the shirt because it was be applied on top of the underbase.


----------

