# t-shirt sublimation?



## frankdoyal05 (Jan 12, 2009)

Which sublimation ink the most widely used to use on polyester light colored t-shirts?


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## charles95405 (Feb 1, 2007)

There are only two inks legally sold in the US...that is sublijet and artainium.....both from Sawgrass. There are some chinese inks floating around but getting correct ICC profile is tough... For beginners I certify prefer sublijet as it comes with an ICC profile that is automatically (almost) set for your printer. Artainium is just as good but you have to get the ICC profile from Sawgrass and install yourself. If you are in Europe, there is Roteck or is it Rotech...or..? anyway since around 2005, it has been owned by Sawgrass. Sawgrass holds the patent for sublimation ink delivery on desktop printers...they do not control the inks for large format...BTW...the epson 1400, 1100 series is still considered a desk top printer...not large format.

There is another alternate ink and that is the sublijet gel ink is used with Ricoh printers.
For more info in sublimation issues...go to DyeSub.org - An educational site for dye sublimation and digital transfer printing.


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## skdave (Apr 11, 2008)

Please empty your pm box


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## frankdoyal05 (Jan 12, 2009)

where do I go to empty my pm box, any ideas?


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## conde tech (Nov 15, 2007)

SubliJet and ArTainium are the most popular sublimation inks on the market. The SubliJet inks usually print using Power Driver, except for the SubliJet inks for the Ricoh printers. You can use a Power Driver or an ICC profile with the Ricoh SubliJet inks. The ArTainium inks strickly use an ICC profile. Be careful when buying an off brand sublimation ink. Cheap may be good. But, when color and quality issues come up there is no tech support.


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## Riderz Ready (Sep 18, 2008)

Translated: SubliJet and ArTainium are the most popular sublimation inks on the market because Sawgrass holds a monopoly on the desktop market. The inks are old technology, clog and destroy printer heads and provide sub par colors. Sawgrass has a higher quality ink called Sublime but since you are a lowly desktop user it cannot be sold to you and is reserved for wide format customers only.


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## charles95405 (Feb 1, 2007)

come on Mark...you don't like the fact that Sawgrass has a patent on ink delivery for desktops? how about Ford/Chevy...do you begrudge them their patents...why not either stop bashing another company or get a bigger printer. After all you don't have to use that process...I have made a bunch of $$$ with their systems...and yes you can have clogging IF you do not do the proper maintenance or print daily. It is not sawgrass fault that there are no other desktop printers with nozzles and will work with sublimation...except the new comer Ricoh with gel ink...but then that is also from Sawgrass. My customers have been happy with the colors when proper ICC profiles are used


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## frankdoyal05 (Jan 12, 2009)

I have used SubliJet ink and I still have some in my old ciss abut 5 years old, you know something I just plugged it into my old epson 1280 printer and still printed....wow. I really thought the ink was shut by now...


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

charles95405 said:


> There are only two inks legally sold in the US...that is sublijet and artainium.....both from Sawgrass. There are some chinese inks floating around but getting correct ICC profile is tough... For beginners I certify prefer sublijet as it comes with an ICC profile that is automatically (almost) set for your printer. Artainium is just as good but you have to get the ICC profile from Sawgrass and install yourself. If you are in Europe, there is Roteck or is it Rotech...or..? anyway since around 2005, it has been owned by Sawgrass. Sawgrass holds the patent for sublimation ink delivery on desktop printers...they do not control the inks for large format...BTW...the epson 1400, 1100 series is still considered a desk top printer...not large format.
> 
> There is another alternate ink and that is the sublijet gel ink is used with Ricoh printers.
> For more info in sublimation issues...go to DyeSub.org - An educational site for dye sublimation and digital transfer printing.


Charles,

Actually Sawgrass does control inks on the larger format printers, the difference is >42 inches suppliers can use a different ink brand as long as they pay for a license. This all came about as a result of the BASF vs. Sawgrass settlement. The language of the '907 SG patent does not restrict carriage width.

InkTec & Sawgrass Technologies sign license agreement for sublimation technology

Also the patent is for ink formulation and using it to create sublimation transfers, not the delivery system per se.

One point about Artanium (using a profile) and Sawgrass (using Power Driver) ... if just a profile only then when Epson comes out with new models then you can usually just use the same profile in the newer version printer if the same number of colors, with Power Driver you have to wait for SG to create new software for a new modle printer. Conde I think does offer a profile only option with SG inks for certain models.

For the issue of legal ink, since products covered under patents are civil issues, unless a brand of ink not made by Sawgrass is disputed in court, and found infringing, it cannot be deemed not to be legal. It would be up to SG to pursue it.


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## Riderz Ready (Sep 18, 2008)

charles95405 said:


> come on Mark...you don't like the fact that Sawgrass has a patent on ink delivery for desktops? how about Ford/Chevy...do you begrudge them their patents...why not either stop bashing another company or get a bigger printer. After all you don't have to use that process...I have made a bunch of $$$ with their systems...and yes you can have clogging IF you do not do the proper maintenance or print daily. It is not sawgrass fault that there are no other desktop printers with nozzles and will work with sublimation...except the new comer Ricoh with gel ink...but then that is also from Sawgrass. My customers have been happy with the colors when proper ICC profiles are used


First and most important - I have no issue with any company having a patent to protect their property. I have an issue when a company uses that patent to screw consumers to the ninth degree and completley control the market and the few companies that sell their ink. There are other dye sub producers (paper being one) that has patents and serves the dye sub community well with high quality products at fair prices. 

Just as an FYI I own an Epson 9800 and a Mutoh RJ900. I have used in production environments Artainium ink, Sublime ink and J-Tech ink thus I have a wide range of experience with the results of different inks. Unfortunately you are one of the many who buy into the propaganda that the clogging issue is a printer issue. I have swamp land for you! Clogging has ZERO to do with the printer is 100% an issue of Sawgrass selling very low quality ink to the desk top market. There is not a single dye sublimation professional who could look you in the eye and tell you Artainium/Sublijet ink is high quality, state of the art ink. What percent of all wide format users have Artainium or Sublijet in their printer? The number is probably close to zero. Why is that? The ink is old, poor quality, clogs and destroys print heads. Call any of the Sawgrass Cartel master distributors and tell them you have a wide format printer. Not one will recommend Artainium/Sublijet. Everyone will recommend Sublime ink. So instead of defending the Sawgrass Cartel you should be demanding to know why as a desktop printer owner you can not get the higher quality ink. What makes you a second class customer barred from using the better ink?

From experience the colors you can get and the deepness of black you can get from Sublime versus Artainium/Sublihjet is significant. If mediocre colors are ok with your customers thats great. Just hope they do not see a sample of a shirt printed with a high quality ink. As you I thought we had good colors as well and you never notice until you see what a high quality ink can do.

Using your car analogy why not look at it like this - What if gas stations took the same approach as Sawgrass. If you pull up in a Ford Fusion you go to the island where gas is $40.00 per gallon and dispenses low quality gas. If you pull up in a Ford F150 truck you go to another island that dispenses a much higher quality gas at $4.00 a gallon. Still happy with the pricing. To top it of you cannot go to another station as they offer the exact same thing.

In short nothing positive comes from an industry where one manufacture controls the entire market including the distributors. These distributors have short leashes which is why there really has never been a clear answer to why the Ricohs tanked. 

I pay $125 for a liter of top quality ink that will blow away Artainium/Sublijet in colors and simply will never clog our printers. If you are happy getting screwed all the power to you. 

People have the right to be informed what Sawgrass is and is not doing to this market.


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## LB (Jul 25, 2009)

I am just a little small dude in this big ole sublimation argument about inks..but it does piss me off that ink for my Ricoh costs the same from EVERYBODY! Not one dollars difference in any of these people that sell it. That just stinks of collusion. Is that defined as price fixing? I like the printer, I like the product I get but I hate the prices on this stuff.


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## Riderz Ready (Sep 18, 2008)

LB said:


> I am just a little small dude in this big ole sublimation argument about inks..but it does piss me off that ink for my Ricoh costs the same from EVERYBODY! Not one dollars difference in any of these people that sell it. That just stinks of collusion. Is that defined as price fixing? I like the printer, I like the product I get but I hate the prices on this stuff.


As you I started out with a little Epson 1900, grew to a 4800, then a 9800 and now a Mutoh. You are way ahead of the game in your knowledge of the price fixing and restrictions Sawgrass puts on people who sell their ink. It took me a while and kind individuals to educate me on the going ons of Sawgrass and their distributors. Good luck as most of started out just where you are today - "a little small dude" trying to figure it all out.


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## frankdoyal05 (Jan 12, 2009)

I buy my sublimation ink from China, first I was worried that it would mess up my printer head. Now I have been using it for over six months and can't see any difference between it and SubliJet I use to use and it's half the cost, in my small business every penny counts....


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## maryellen1234 (Mar 4, 2010)

I think that Mark (riderz Ready) is 100% right. I have an Epson 4800 and I am stuck using the artanium inks at $220 per color. I have 8 colors. I love the printer but hate the cost. I can replace the cartridges with re-fillable but would have to hide it from every one due to the recent lawsuit that Epson won. I have had problems with the artanium inks and sometimes at my wits end. I would give anything to have all re-fillable inks and never buy one for $220 again. But until then, I will continue to get irritated every time I order more.
Mary Ellen


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## LB (Jul 25, 2009)

It's a bad thing when a proprietary ink is probably one of the most expensive liquids on the planet. I knew this going in with my little printer, so I have to live with it, I don't have to like it.


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## Riderz Ready (Sep 18, 2008)

maryellen1234 said:


> I think that Mark (riderz Ready) is 100% right. I have an Epson 4800 and I am stuck using the artanium inks at $220 per color. I have 8 colors. I love the printer but hate the cost. I can replace the cartridges with re-fillable but would have to hide it from every one due to the recent lawsuit that Epson won. I have had problems with the artanium inks and sometimes at my wits end. I would give anything to have all re-fillable inks and never buy one for $220 again. But until then, I will continue to get irritated every time I order more.
> Mary Ellen


There is no need to hide - there s not a single person in wide format that does not use refillable cartridges. You are already screwed just by using dye sub ink in the printer. Warranty is voided unles you find a nice service tech. The issue you have is the control of ink sawgrass has on you.


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## charles95405 (Feb 1, 2007)

simple answer to the problem...you don't like the cost...don't use the system...if you do use the system, price your end product accordingly. I have been doing sublimation for over 11 years and have made money on it every year...would I like more profit...yep...but I will take what I have...and oh yes...I do operate a store front


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## Riderz Ready (Sep 18, 2008)

charles95405 said:


> simple answer to the problem...you don't like the cost...don't use the system...if you do use the system, price your end product accordingly. I have been doing sublimation for over 11 years and have made money on it every year...would I like more profit...yep...but I will take what I have...and oh yes...I do operate a store front


You so miss the point . Because of the Sawgrass Cartel there is no other viable solution for the desktop market. I can only imagine you utilize very little ink in your dye sub products and/or dye sub is a small part of your business. If doing coffee mugs was my business I could care less about the cost of ink per mug. I would be more concerned about the cost of the mug and shipping. For those of us that make a living on dye sublimation and consume a good amount of ink these are real issues. Simply reducing the amount of ink used by 20% or reducing the cost of ink 20% means thousands of dollars to us. We are constantly looking to reduce our cost. In fact we just found a fabric vendor that will reduce our cost per jersey by over $2.00. That is thousands of bottom line dollars in my pocket to fuel continued growth. There are different types of individuals - that is what makes the world go around. There are those that simply accept the status quo as life and are happy with what they have. There are those that seek out ways to reduce cost, expand their business and educate others from their experiences so they can make informed decsions. One is not better than the other - it just is a matter of what floats your boat.


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## mn shutterbug (Mar 19, 2009)

My boat floats - I just don't catch any fish out of it.  

I do think Ricoh is part of the problem with the clogging issues. Why else would my Ricoh 5550 never have a problem and the 7000's well known for it's issues? I've had my 5550 for 1 1/2 years and there are many times it sits for 2 weeks without being used. I believe I've only had to do a head cleaning twice. In other words, Ricoh can make them to perform near flawlessly with sublijet ink. My printer proves it.


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## Riderz Ready (Sep 18, 2008)

mn shutterbug said:


> My boat floats - I just don't catch any fish out of it.
> 
> I do think Ricoh is part of the problem with the clogging issues. Why else would my Ricoh 5550 never have a problem and the 7000's well known for it's issues? I've had my 5550 for 1 1/2 years and there are many times it sits for 2 weeks without being used. I believe I've only had to do a head cleaning twice. In other words, Ricoh can make them to perform near flawlessly with sublijet ink. My printer proves it.


Seriously? You truly think Ricoh makes printers for dye sublimation? You think Ricoh is going to retool their technology and manufacturing plants for dye sublimation use? It is the same goofy arguement the Sawgrass Cartel wants to make on Epsons. It is very simple - These Printers Are Not Made For Sublimation. The analogy is if I owned a diesel automobile and decided I wanted to use standard unleaded gas. Is it the car manufactures fault that the car bombs? Ricoh and Epson have zero to do with clogging issues. It could all be cleared up if Sawgrass or the people selling Ricohs would simply inform the users what happened. What do they fear by being honest?


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## mn shutterbug (Mar 19, 2009)

Ricoh may not design their printers for dye sub, but they darned well know that's what some of them are being used for. Dye sublimation has actually opened up a whole new market for Ricoh and this means mucho $$$$$ for the company as long as they watch their P's and Q's.


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## Riderz Ready (Sep 18, 2008)

mn shutterbug said:


> Ricoh may not design their printers for dye sub, but they darned well know that's what some of them are being used for. Dye sublimation has actually opened up a whole new market for Ricoh and this means mucho $$$$$ for the company as long as they watch their P's and Q's.


Dye sublimation is a pimple on Ricohs backside. To think it makes any significant contribution to revenue is not realistic. Furthermore as with all printer companies they are in the business to sell consumables - INK. Selling a printer one time to someone with no possibility to ever selling them ink is a losing proposition to any printer manufacture. 

If you put all the pieces together it all makes sense. You have a monopoly by a manufacture who greatly restricts the number of outlets that sells their product to further keep control of the market. Until recently they have offered three inks. Two old, poor quality inks (Artainium/Sublijet) that cause huge clogging issues in Epson printers. They also have a higher quality ink that greatly reduces clogging and provides improved colors but will NOT sell that to their biggest market - the desktop community. Just so that we are all on the same page - SAWGRASS CURRENTLY HAS AN INK (SUBLIME) THAT PRODUCES GREAT COLORS AND HAS FEW CLOGGING ISSUES THAT COULD BE USED ON EPSON PRINTERS COSTING LESS THAN $100. This is a simple fact that cannot be argued by Sawgrass or any of their distributors. You have to ask why do not offer this to their biggest customers? I would love to hear an answer from the Sawgrass Cartel.

If Sawgrass already has a high quality ink why then was there a need to spend a huge amount of money on R&D and manufacturing start up cost to come up with a new ink? Does this make much sense at all? Of course not unless you take into consideration Sawgrass patents are close to running out which will allow high quality ink currently used by wide format printers to flood the desktop market at a fraction of the curent price. I would guess a 110ML cartridge will drop to $20-$30. This is a very realistic price considering wide format liters currently range from $100-$150. Can Sawgrass stay in business selling 110ML for $125+ when other companies currently sell liters for that price? 

Simply put, Sawgrass must create a new market protected by new patents to remain viable. How are they doing this? They hold back their high quality ink from the desktop market and sell the concept of better colors and no clogging if you use the Ricoh. They must move their entire desktop market over to the new patents or they are in big trouble. This is why Sawgrass and the distributors eat, sleep and drink Ricohs. In just a matter of a short time their little monoply is going to blow up and the dye sub market will never be the same. Not only will the dye sub market explode but you all will finally be free of my Sawgrass rants. RIP Sawgrass.


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