# is white ink profitable for a DTG printer?



## GRH (Apr 25, 2007)

*Re: Kornit Purchase. Do you lease or buy?*

IMHO printing white ink with the smaller machines is just a novelty. If you count your time at minimum wage rates and sell at retail you can make a few bucks doing it. The process of printing white ink on these smaller machines has not evolved to the point you can make serious money doing it. I would guess that if the average user of these machines were to do a true accounting of costs including labor they would find they are loosing money printing with white ink.


----------



## vctradingcubao (Nov 15, 2006)

*Re: Kornit Purchase. Do you lease or buy?*

Thanks also for the feedback GRH. Maybe we should do an opinion poll in these forum for DTG users, if they think that printing white ink (printing on dark shirts) is profitable.


----------



## zhenjie (Aug 27, 2006)

*Re: Kornit Purchase. Do you lease or buy?*

You really need high margins on your colored/black t-shirts in order for White Ink printing to be profitable. Good profit doesn't really come about when you are doing small run orders of 5-20 on average and still offer a 'competitive' price. I see a lot of DTG'ers really pricing themselves out of their own business. Many dont factor in the entire cost of white ink printing (defects, test shirts, pretreatment pricing and labour!).


----------



## binki (Jul 16, 2006)

*Re: Kornit Purchase. Do you lease or buy?*

Wow, we keep talking about labor costs. If you are the owner and doing the labor then what is your profit when the machine is idle? What is your labor cost for yourself when you are idle? 

I would liken the dark shirts to airport runs in the limo business. In the limo business airport runs are the most hated by the drivers because they take a lot of time, have a one way dead-head, don't offer much in tips. But, those runs pay for rent, car payments, gas and an hourly wage for the driver. So when the wedding, party, or other 4/6/8 hour run comes in at the premium price you have the number of cars and drivers to make the sale. 

So, just because a white ink/dark shirt may be expensive to do and not make much/if any profit, what about the white/light shirt orders that come in and make a ton of money? We just did a run where our ink cost at 2 passes was 8c per shirt and we sold them for $15/each. Holy cow, I couldn't ask for a better margin. 

Even if you sell the white ink shirts near cost what about other product offerings that go with the dark shirts? Just because you get one order for dark shirts today doesn't mean you won't get that same customer coming in for lights/embroidery/mouse pads/promo items, etc.


----------



## GRH (Apr 25, 2007)

*Re: Kornit Purchase. Do you lease or buy?*

Binki,

If I had a limo and it was doing airport runs for $1 a mile and my costs were $2 a mile I would park it and get a job at McDonalds untill a profitable run came around.


----------



## Justin Walker (Dec 6, 2006)

*Re: Kornit Purchase. Do you lease or buy?*

Agreed. lol. Although I DO see the point - if you are making very little money on darks (not taking a loss, per se), then perhaps you can make up for it by keeping that client and offering them keychains, light garments, embroidery, hats, etc. There have been many times when I have not made any money on an order I have done, for one reason or another.

Of course, the thing to consider is, the wear and tear on your machine. It is one thing to not make a profit, it is another thing entirely to not make a profit AND have your machine deteriorating due to white inks abuse. I guess each business owner needs to decide for themselves what is worth it, and what their breaking point is.


----------



## zhenjie (Aug 27, 2006)

*Re: Kornit Purchase. Do you lease or buy?*



binki said:


> Wow, we keep talking about labor costs. If you are the owner and doing the labor then what is your profit when the machine is idle? What is your labor cost for yourself when you are idle?


I see what you are trying to say but when I am not printing I will not be idle. I could be working on other things such as developing my website, marketing and other business duties that need to be done.

We shouldn't be complacent with white ink as it stands even if it might bring further business and additional sales. Since white ink printing is the majority of most DTG'ers it should be profitable and generate some good income. We can't just hope that an order comes in for white t-shirts to keep us afloat.


----------



## binki (Jul 16, 2006)

*Re: Kornit Purchase. Do you lease or buy?*

I agree completely about the white ink issues. The cost of the ink is outrageous, the process is problematic, and the training/support is atrocious. We offer the white ink for competitive purposes to sell other items.


----------



## GRH (Apr 25, 2007)

*Re: Kornit Purchase. Do you lease or buy?*

Justin and Binki,

I understand the concept of promotion. I did 500 shirts for an animal shelter at a loss. I got a lot of advertising from this but I did it knowingly. The white ink process seems to slowly drain you of profits. You do a job and make money and then the next 3 jobs you loose. Its like playing craps the odds are always against you.

Regards,
GRH


----------



## Justin Walker (Dec 6, 2006)

*Re: Kornit Purchase. Do you lease or buy?*

I agree. I have been advocating against white ink for quite some time... In my opinion, the only machine that can print white ink AFFORDABLY right now is the Kornit.


----------



## GRH (Apr 25, 2007)

*Re: Kornit Purchase. Do you lease or buy?*

Justin,

I have no experience with Kornit but from what I have read you are correct. It is a shame that the lesser machine manufacturers have not figured this out.

Regards,
GRH


----------



## GRH (Apr 25, 2007)

*Re: Kornit Purchase. Do you lease or buy?*

nlwilson,

Sorry for hijacking your thread!

Best Regards,
GRH


----------



## Justin Walker (Dec 6, 2006)

*Re: Kornit Purchase. Do you lease or buy?*

It is not like Kornit has some novel idea. The thing is, the print heads are capable of passing a far more viscous inkset. Whereas the DuPont white is in the neighborhood or 5, the Kornit inks are well over 12. Even with the Spectra Nova print heads, the machine must go over the same area 5 or 6 times in each pass to get the opacity necessary to be of any use.

No other machine is using such industrial print heads, and therefore cannot use the same (or similar) inks.


----------



## vctradingcubao (Nov 15, 2006)

*Re: Kornit Purchase. Do you lease or buy?*



Justin Walker said:


> I agree. I have been advocating against white ink for quite some time... In my opinion, the only machine that can print white ink AFFORDABLY right now is the Kornit.


Maybe this is what I wanted to hear from you guys.
OK then, I will hold off my plan for a DTG HM1 or Eclipse, and will save for a Kornit instead. In the meantime, I have to build up my market some more to be able to justify a very large investment. I just hope that I will still be interested in a DTG after 1, 2 or 3 years.


----------



## TahoeTomahawk (Apr 12, 2006)

*Re: Kornit Purchase. Do you lease or buy?*



Justin Walker said:


> I agree. I have been advocating against white ink for quite some time... In my opinion, the only machine that can print white ink AFFORDABLY right now is the Kornit.


I think the cost of the Kornit out-weighs the benefit of ink savings.
So what if it costs you an extra $1 in Ink cost of the machine itself is 200k.


----------



## vctradingcubao (Nov 15, 2006)

*Re: Kornit Purchase. Do you lease or buy?*



TahoeTomahawk said:


> I think the cost of the Kornit out-weighs the benefit of ink savings.
> So what if it costs you an extra $1 in Ink cost of the machine itself is 200k.


Hey Adam, that's another good point. I'm getting confused now. Our local DTG distributor listed white Dupont ink at 326 USD for a liter. On a conservative average, I'm wondering how many shirts can I print before it runs out.


----------



## zhenjie (Aug 27, 2006)

*Re: Kornit Purchase. Do you lease or buy?*



TahoeTomahawk said:


> I think the cost of the Kornit out-weighs the benefit of ink savings.
> So what if it costs you an extra $1 in Ink cost of the machine itself is 200k.


If you're meeting a certain volume I think thats when you see the Kornit paying itself off.


----------



## GRH (Apr 25, 2007)

vctradingcubao,

It obviously depends on the print size and underbase but you can get about 100 prints from a liter of white ink. 

As zhenjie says it all depends on volume if you can print 50,000 shirts at $4.00 profit you can pay for a $200,000 machine. If you print 5,000 shirts at no profit you can't pay for any machine.

Regards,
GRH


----------



## Justin Walker (Dec 6, 2006)

Consider this example for printing dark garments:

Consider the raw cost for pretreatment and white ink is $4.00 on an Epson based machine (remember the pretreatment adds up to .50 to the cost as well), and $1 on the Kornit... How many dark shirts do you have to print to break even?

Well, let's assume 
you are printing 50 black shirts per day.... This is what it would look like in 2 years, IF you never increased your volume and you only printed 5 days per week:

13,000 shirts per year, at a $3 per shirt difference.
26,000 shirts in two years using the Dupont white = $104,000 raw ink cost.
26,000 shirts in two years using the Kornit white = $26,000 raw ink cost.

So basically, every two years, you are saving $78,000 on raw ink cost alone for dark garments at a very conservative rate. Now image you are a larger volume shop, or imagine the ink cost savings on light garments factored in as well. Additionally, how many times will you have to replace the printhead on a small Epson based printer when printing 26,000 shirts? How many dampers will you have to replace, or encoder strips, or plastic encoder disks? How much ink will you waste doing simple and power cleanings that use all colors and not just the channels you are trying to clear? How many shirts will you pretreat inconsistently?

When you take everything into consideration, it is EASY to see how you will actually be paying out LESS money (cost of machine included) before your lease ever runs out on your machine. Food for thought.


----------



## TahoeTomahawk (Apr 12, 2006)

The question was can you be profitable doing DTG with white Ink and the answer is yes.
Ok guys don't laugh at me.. I'm using your scenario Justin and I'm still failing to see how you can't be profitable with a normal single head DTG, but you can with a Kornit. Below is a modified scenario based on your numbers.http://www.flexijetprinter.com/inks.htm

Single head DTG around 15k
13,000 x $3.50 = $45,500
$45,500 - 15k for the printer = $30,500 profit 1st year.

Kornit around 200k
13,000 x 5 = $65,000
$65,000 - $200,000 = -135,000
At that rate you wont be profitable for 3 years!

$4 Ink cost for DTG using Dupont is too high an average IMO. Most images are not a full solid 8 " x 10" print, there are always lots of variations and transparent areas. In our case, most of our business is print on demand using dark or black shirts and the average ink cost for us is about $2, + .50 for pre-treat. We buy our white from Dan @ Thread and Ink for $282 a litre:
http://www.flexijetprinter.com/inks.htm


----------



## JeridHill (Feb 8, 2006)

TahoeTomahawk said:


> The question was can you be profitable doing DTG with white Ink and the answer is yes.
> Ok guys don't laugh at me.. I'm using your scenario Justin and I'm still failing to see how you can't be profitable with a normal single head DTG, but you can with a Kornit. Below is a modified scenario based on your numbers.http://www.flexijetprinter.com/inks.htm
> 
> Single head DTG around 15k
> ...


Even though these numbers are real figures, I've seen a 12 x 12 image at about 75% coverage cost $4 in white ink. Of course you have your pretreatment, etc.

Besides that information, you have to now look at how much time it takes for you to do those figures you mentioned. On the sizes you mentioned, my guess is, you are lucky to get 15 shirts an hour with the entire process. If that's not correct, then use the figures you can get.

So that's 867 man hours. If you have only 1 person doing this and you pay them $15 per hour (Including taxes) , you are back up to $13,000 in just labor alone. This does not include all the expenses that really go into this machine, but it's getting you closer to the real figure. So now your profit is cut in half (almost).

Now take the Kornit and run those same jobs and you will probably do about 60 shirts an hour in best mode and the highest quality mode, maybe 35. I would probably use the best mode since it still produces a good print. 60 shirts an hour and run the rate of $15 an hour and you spend a little over $3200 in labor. There's a $10,000 price difference that no one ever factors in.

If someone is buying the Kornit, then I can guarantee they will do more than 13,000 shirts in a year (or they've pretty much got a somewhat wasted investment), but that may not be necessarily true to the smaller units. That's why if someone is only going to print that kind of quantity, I never suggest the Kornit. The Kornit is something you build up to or your business plan can justify the purchase. Now plug in 5,000 shirts a month and you have some real numbers to work with. I've done 5,000 shirts in one order (screen printing), so over a month, it's very probable.


----------



## ChameleonPrints (Apr 7, 2007)

15 Black shirts an hour? My experience with the T-jet2 would say it is more like 8 Black shirts an hour ( again, that is my experience ). If you look at the costs of the shirt, ink and pretreatment and not how long it takes to do the job, then yes you can easily be profitable. I know everyone is always saying consider your "time" but that is only a real factor if you have something else to do. If you have orders for white shirts piling up then I wouldn't bother taking an order for black shirts when you are getting better profit margins off the white shirts. You don't want to spend more time working for less money, but if you don't have orders piling up and its a choice between doing a black shirt order at a smaller profit margin that will take you a lot longer OR having your machine sit there clogging up, then by all means take on the black shirts.


----------



## JeridHill (Feb 8, 2006)

ChameleonPrints said:


> 15 Black shirts an hour? My experience with the T-jet2 would say it is more like 8 Black shirts an hour ( again, that is my experience ). If you look at the costs of the shirt, ink and pretreatment and not how long it takes to do the job, then yes you can easily be profitable. I know everyone is always saying consider your "time" but that is only a real factor if you have something else to do. If you have orders for white shirts piling up then I wouldn't bother taking an order for black shirts when you are getting better profit margins off the white shirts. You don't want to spend more time working for less money, but if you don't have orders piling up and its a choice between doing a black shirt order at a smaller profit margin that will take you a lot longer OR having your machine sit there clogging up, then by all means take on the black shirts.


I know the times on the Tjet2 are less than the Flexijet and someone I read Flexijet and assumed that's the one to go by. Yes, you are probably lucky to get 8 shirts an hour on the Tjet 2. I should have thought about the $15 price mark, because for the Flexijet I believe it's now $17K.

I know of someone who uses the TJet2 consistently and was getting about 6 shirts an hour with 1 wasted. Outside of the Kornit, I don't believe any of these machines are production machines when using white ink. Not even the $230K US Screen printer.


----------



## TahoeTomahawk (Apr 12, 2006)

sorry for calling you Justin!!


----------



## Justin Walker (Dec 6, 2006)

TahoeTomahawk said:


> TBelow is a modified scenario based on your numbers.
> 
> Single head DTG around 15k
> 13,000 x $3.50 = $45,500
> ...


Although I can't tell you what YOUR averages would be, I can say that I print a LOT of dark shirts, and if you have seen my sample posts in the past, almost ALL my dark garments are nearly full coverage 12 x 12 images. Right now I am printing 300 shirts, 13.5 x 17.5 FULL COVERAGE. Imagine what THAT would cost using the Dupont white.

As for your figures above, I am slightly confused on where the price figures came from ($3.50 and $5). Are those the profit margins? Because if they are, simply basing it off of my given numbers, it would look more like this:

Provided we are selling a black shirt to a customer at $9, and the cost of the garment is $2. With a $1 cost for ink on the Kornit, the net is $6 per garment. With a $4 cost for ink on the Dupont machine, the net is $3 per garment. Therefore:

Single head DTG around 15k
13,000 x $3 = $39,000
$39,000 - 15k for the printer = $24,000 profit 1st year.
$4 per shirt x 13,000 = $52,000 annual ink cost.

Kornit 932D around 85k (without dryer)
13,000 x 6 = $78,000
$78,000 - $85,000 = -7,000
$1 per shirt x 13,000 = $13,000 annual ink cost.

So, given the ABOVE example, you are SAVING $39,000 per year in raw ink cost alone, and your machine is paid off shortly after passing the one year mark. But when you look BEYOND the payoff point, you are putting an extra $39,000 in your pocket each and every year, without ever increasing your workflow over what you would have had with a smaller DTG.


----------



## Justin Walker (Dec 6, 2006)

TahoeTomahawk said:


> sorry for calling you Justin!!


You called me? Hmmm...

Just a quick note - my examples are NOT meant to be a guide or to tell anybody what they should do with THEIR business models. Maybe in YOUR business model, you don't print that many shirts, or many the size of the print is considerably smaller on a consistent basis. The numbers are simply meant to stimulate conversation - nothing more.

There is ALWAYS a place for small format DTG machines in this market, and we should not take friendly discussion in the wrong light. Some other things that should always be kept in consideration are things like ease of use, maintenance, learning curve (higher on the Kornit), accessories (RIP software, dying mechanism, compressor, etc), power requirements, etc. Not EVERYTHING comes down to raw ink cost, of course.


----------



## PinkFreud (Mar 8, 2007)

Hey people....I see a lot of familiar faces in this forum......I havent posted on this one yet,,.I feel I must add my comments to my favorite subject....DIGITAL PRINTING WITH WHITE INK!....I am convinced that Digital Garment Printers can only be truly profitable printing with white ink by selling 1-offs at retail or high wholesale short runs....Remember that digital printers offer something screen printing cant.....Full color photo realistic with NO minimums ON DARK GARMENTS!.....I have been doing it for close to 2 years with much success....all this talk about using a digital garment printer to print large volume orders and contract printing on dark garments is not feasible with ANY digital printer including the high end Kornit...lets use logic here....can you realistically compete for the really big jobs with a screen printer who has a 12-18 automatic textile press?...No You cant...why would you want to?...why spend close to 200 grand on a printing machine which does the same thing as the 15 grand machine (albeit somewhat faster and cheaper)....A 200 grand investment would take years to pay off unless you are Cafe Press (and they havent even pulled it off yet exactly right)....remember this is new and quickly evolving technology....the current configuration for printing digitally with white ink may be obsolete in a few short years....A Kornit only makes sense if you have more money then God, won the lottery or suddenly received some big financial pay off....otherwise we entrepreneurs in the real world can successfully print low volume full color prints on dark shirts and have money left over for a Lamborgini.....Is it easy to do?...No....Is it fast?...No.....Is it expensive?....yes...(but in my experience the average cost is $3.00 each for the white ink per shirt).....We digital garment printers can offer a service that screen printers cannot.....full color low volume printing....Can you charge a premium....YES....For those few who can afford a 200,000.00 machine I wish you the best of luck successfully printing large orders of dark shirts consistently.....To my knowledge nobody has done it yet for any significant period of time in the real-world marketplace but my bet is that if anyone can,,, it would be Justin and his Kornit.....Good luck man!!!


----------



## vctradingcubao (Nov 15, 2006)

GRH said:


> vctradingcubao,
> 
> It obviously depends on the print size and underbase but you can get about 100 prints from a liter of white ink.


Only 100 shirts for a 326USD liter of white ink?  So that's 3.26USD per shirt. That cost is really high. I've seen the 3 to 7 USD per shirt figure before but did'nt pay a lot of attention because I thought it included the labor cost . No wonder my DTG distributor don't want to give me even an approximate figure when I ask him. My market certainly can't afford it. Maybe I have to go back to screen printing, Laser & Roland solvent opaques.


----------



## Justin Walker (Dec 6, 2006)

haha. Thanks, Pink.  But I do disagree with you (as per usual) on a few points. First, LOTS of companies are currently able to afford Kornits, and I have already demonstrated that with a relatively mid volume of dark garments, you will be saving a FORTUNE each year by printing with the Kornit over any other machine. And we are not talking peanuts here, but tens of thousands of dollars annually.

Additionally, you made the cardinal mistake most people make when arguing against this business model: "lets use logic here....can you realistically compete for the really big jobs with a screen printer who has a 12-18 automatic textile press?...No You cant...why would you want to?"

Let's see a big screen printer who has a 12-18 automatic textile press compete with me on orders for 12-36 shirts. Heck I'd love to see them compete up to 144 garments for that matter. Let's talk setup costs, chemicals, labor, production time and cleanup. Let's talk small to medium run orders, which is exactly where this Digital technology feels most at home. Do we do the occasional large order? Yes. But almost ALL of our orders are 24-48, FULL color on dark, and MANY have come to us because they were turned down by the big screen printers who want to charge them $12-$20 per screen to setup on an 8 color job (already putting the client at $96-$160 before ever laying a drop of ink down) and unbelievable prices on the printing itself.

Also I think it is foolish to think that CafePress "isn't doing it right". They have multiple machines that print full color garments at the lowest possible consumables price, while charging the shop owners $13 or so per garment and printing countless garments per day? Sounds to me like they got it "right". The only place I see them faltering is print quality. Heck, just this week, I got three new clients who were thrilled at my print quality over CafePress, simply because we use the highest print quality settings (at the sacrifice of print time) and properly prep each artwork file before we print it. AND our prices are way less than CafePress.

As for your $3 per print average...... Again, I don't know what you are printing (also, I know your T-Jet doesn't have an ink usage counter), but when comparing ink usage on Flexi-Jets and Kiosks (both with ink usage counters) most people have found the ink costs to be much higher than $3.

Finally, about the lambo... I wouldn't mind having one of those. With the volume of dark shirts we are CURRENTLY printing, and the growth we have experienced since BUYING the Kornit, I would certainly rather put that extra $39,000 in my POCKET each year, rather than in Dupont's pocket.  Then I could buy a new Lambo every two years! 

PS - Glad to see you here posting, Pink!


----------



## Justin Walker (Dec 6, 2006)

vctradingcubao said:


> Only 100 shirts for a 326USD liter of white ink?  So that's 3.26USD per shirt.


Don't forget the .50 or so for the pretreatment, plus the time and labor involved for prepping the shirts, and the quillon paper and teflon sheets needed for the pretreat and curing processes.


----------



## binki (Jul 16, 2006)

Justin Walker said:


> Let's see a big screen printer who has a 12-18 automatic textile press compete with me on orders for 12-36 shirts. Heck I'd love to see them compete up to 144 garments for that matter. Let's talk setup costs, chemicals, labor, production time and cleanup. Let's talk small to medium run orders, which is exactly where this Digital technology feels most at home. Do we do the occasional large order? Yes. But almost ALL of our orders are 24-48, FULL color on dark, and MANY have come to us because they were turned down by the big screen printers who want to charge them $12-$20 per screen to setup on an 8 color job (already putting the client at $96-$160 before ever laying a drop of ink down) and unbelievable prices on the printing itself.


 
An excellent point on the quantity issue. I do think your screen charges are too low. I see $40-$50 per screen on orders under 144 units.


----------



## TahoeTomahawk (Apr 12, 2006)

vctradingcubao said:


> Only 100 shirts for a 326USD liter of white ink?  So that's 3.26USD per shirt.


I buy my Dupont for $286 per litre and it's rare that my ink cost is over 2.50.
Part of the issue may be that I'm using a standard Kiosk which only has 3 white ink channels and some of the new T-Jets and Kiosk HM1 and Flexi's have 4 (or more) white ink channels.


----------



## PinkFreud (Mar 8, 2007)

Ok....My point is that digital garment printers are perfect for 1 offs and short runs and have a distinct advantage over screen printing especially when it comes to full color photo realistic ...I suppose when arguing this point we should define short runs....I consider quantities from 12-48 pcs to be short runs and lets say anything from 144-1000's pcs to be large runs....Now if we are talking white ink on dark shirts DIGITAL PRINTING CANNOT COMPETE WITH SCREEN PRINTING ON LARGE RUNS. If your business model is wholesale then your real bread and butter will come from large run repeat customers...these are usually retail and design companies who will want to order dozens of every size on a regular basis. A digital printing machine including the Kornit cannot profitablly service these accounts (multiple machines and large production digital machines have many inherent problems at this point IMO). So now we come back to the real world of digital printing (esp on dark garments) and we look at the short runs and the 1 offs. There are many brands of standard digital printers and they all have strengths and weaknesses but for the most part they all do the same thing...In my humble opinion to look at the 200 grand Kornit as a digital printer's ultimate aspiration is foolish for most of use who are on these forums....Yes the Kornit offers lower ink prices (compared to Duponts CURRENT prices) ...But the most important advantage the Kornit has over standard printers is the automatic application of the pre-treatment....I have questions about the washability compared to pretreatment properly applied manually. I know the older version Kornit did NOT pass the wash test but lets assume for the sake of argument that the new version Kornit can automatically apply the stuff and pass the wash test...this is truly a wonderful innovation BUT if we are using digital printers for 1 offs and short runs
how can you still justify paying so much money for this machine when it still cannot profitably do the large runs?? Stop dreaming the 200 grand dream and lets keep talkin how we can make money in this lucrative digital garment printer market...and lets continue to share experiances with our standard machines which is what this industry is based on....Let the big boys have their Ferraris....the other 99% of us will continue "keepin it real"....incidentally do you know what the #2 selling product is on the internet? ...Well #1 is computers and accesories.....and #2???...............
.......T-Shirts!!!!!!


----------



## PinkFreud (Mar 8, 2007)

....oh and regarding CafePress successfully doing black shirts???....They still list black shirts as "beta" and therefore cannot guarantee prompt delivery....additionally if you look in the CafePress discussion forum you will see many customers unhappy with the quality of the printing on black shirts....Im tellin ya....large volume digital printing on dark is not ready for prime time right now...
.....To offer a quality durable color print on a dark shirt you must take the time to apply the pretreatment one shirt at a time....sponge the stuff into the fibers...
press and dry it and THEN let the machine apply the white underbase and color...
...until proven otherwise I am holdin on to my 200 grand


----------



## Justin Walker (Dec 6, 2006)

You continue to underestimate the sheer volume of short run on darks that are being ordered every single day in my shop, as well as so many others, and as long as you continue to do this, I will be a happy camper because it means I will continue to have less competition.

Also, people are always throwing out the $180k Kornit printer when doing comparisons. The 932D models have been outselling the 931D (at least in my market) 5 to 1 in the past several months since the new model has been released, and it is only $75k for the machine itself. $75k is a much more reasonable investment for something that will save your $39,000 per year on consumables alone in a mid-volume shop. Imagine what it can do for a BUSY shop. And remember, I defined mid-volume earlier as 50 shirts per day - which is ONE short run per business day of the week.

One last thing about washability - I do not know if you have seen this thread yet, Pink - http://www.t-shirtforums.com/direct-garment-dtg-inkjet-printing/t21487.html
All the Kornit samples there have been washed several times. The difference between the new pretreatment / ink combo and Dupont's solution is this - with the Kornit, the pretreatment is primarily water. At LEAST 75% water. Its primary purpose is to saturate the shirt, and its SECONDARY purpose is to act as a bonding agent. For the Dupont pretreatment, its PRIMARY purpose is to act as a bonding agent, and thus must be applied very carefully and consistently in order to be effective. Hence the 5 part process to just get the shirt ready to print on. Whereas, with the Kornit pretreatment, it simply saturates the shirt and prevents the ink from settling in, and then it evaporates out as the ink cures. It is completely different approach, and is highly effective. No "brushing" or "sponging" is required, and the wash tests are awesome.


----------



## Rodney (Nov 3, 2004)

> ..additionally if you look in the CafePress discussion forum you will see many customers unhappy with the quality of the printing on black shirts....Im tellin ya....large volume digital printing on dark is not ready for prime time right now...


You will also find many people happy with the quality of the printing on black shirts.

I can tell you right now, if cafepress had a high levels of poor customer satisfaction on the black garments, they wouldn't still be printing them and expanding the line.


----------



## Justin Walker (Dec 6, 2006)

^^ Agreed.


----------



## PinkFreud (Mar 8, 2007)

Rodney.....CafePress clearly states that the black shirt option is BETA...as you know this means it is still in the testing phase and prompt delivery is not guaranteed...under normal circumstances I would agree with you that the amount of unhappy customers would be unacceptable.

Justin....Most of us who are manually applying the pretreatment have found that saturating the shirt with water works best ...so chemically speaking I dont think there is any difference.....What is obviously different is the automatic application which is very impressive...however...from my experiance, the pretreatment must be dry before applying the underbase for maximum durability....However I have no reason to doubt that Kornit has pulled it off....In the meantime I am happy for you to be the guinea pig.....I would be interested in the results of an extended time wash and wear test....Incidently my best seller is 10 black shirts for $99 but in this case I only double my money....The real profit comes from selling shirts at retail for $20-$30....Good luck contracting out black shirts


----------



## Justin Walker (Dec 6, 2006)

I don't contract out black shirts. People contract them out to me.


----------



## zoom_monster (Sep 20, 2006)

Pink, 
How long does it take you to print your $99 special? On my pre-treatment, I'm finding that slightly damp can print and wash fine. I trying various adjuvants to see if I can streamline the pretreatment process and increase the economy of it. Personally, I cannot see selling a "black" shirt for that much, unless we're talking a small or sparse print.


----------



## treadhead (Jul 26, 2006)

I'm actually enjoying this "back and forth" on this subject by two people who have obviously been "around the block" with this technology and aren't afraid to share their experiences and knowledge.  

As someone who has just purchased a T Jet II and is struggling through the learning curve of doing dark shirts w/ white ink......I'm just trying to figure out how to make a quality shirt....especially trying to keep the same design looking consistent across various colors. 

I am doing the whole pretreat routine (spray..sponge..etc.) but need to figure out the whole underbase control process. Once I figure that out...I guess I'll worry about how to make money doing it...


----------



## vctradingcubao (Nov 15, 2006)

treadhead said:


> I'm actually enjoying this ...
> I am doing the whole pretreat routine (spray..sponge..etc.) but need to figure out the whole underbase control process. Once I figure that out...I guess I'll worry about how to make money doing it...


I also do....
I hope it will not take so long, and you will keep us posted on your progress. I'm currently thinking "hard" if I will proceed with a DTG purchase.


----------



## GRH (Apr 25, 2007)

vctradingcubao,

Ah what the heck, jump in there and buy the machine. You can definitely make good money printing white and light shirts. The question is, is printing white ink profitable. I personally think that printing with white ink is a marginal. It depends on if you count labor and miscellaneous overheads. With a true business accounting I think printing with white ink on these smaller low volume machines is marginal at best but you can make money with these machines. 

This technology is like computers in the 1990's it will change every 6 months. What is high tech now will be trumped in a few months. If you wait on the sidelines you will be waiting for a long time.

Best Regards,
GRH


----------



## Justin Walker (Dec 6, 2006)

treadhead said:


> I'm actually enjoying this "back and forth" on this subject by two people who have obviously been "around the block" with this technology and aren't afraid to share their experiences and knowledge.


lol. Thanks! Pink and I have been going round and round with each other for well over a year now. We just recently made it to this board.  We are both very passionate about this technology, and neither of us pulls any punches when talking to each other.


----------



## PinkFreud (Mar 8, 2007)

Hey...I think I like the crowd on this forum.....glad you appreciate the back and forth...Me, Justin and a few others have been chasing each other from one forum to the other for over a year now....we enjoy debating the finer points of digital garment printing.....yes we may disagree on some points but one thing we agree on is that we are passionate about what we do and dont mind learning, experimenting and shariin our experience in this new and quickly evolving industry....we dont work for any particular brand of printer but we dont mind giving our opinion about the machines and what works for us...I will say its hard to keep up with Justin sometimes....he may be a vampire or he may be Batman with insomnia!!!....(insert laughing smiley face here)

Zoom.....If I multi-task with the same image I can easily do 10 black shirts in an hour or less depending on the size of the print....$99 too much for 10 black shirts full color?...I dont think so especially when you consider I sell 1 shirt for $25....additional shirts are $15...so suddenly 10 shirts for $99 starts looking good to the average customer....who is the average customer?....Pet owners....grandmas....artists...photographers...rock bands .
...golfers....salons...bars etc etc.....I also have a retail store in a tourist town as well as a kiosk in a mall
We print photos directly off of teenagers cell phones and yo...did I mention MySpace???

Tread....If you are using the new version of FastArtist you dont have to worry about the underbase and highlight settings as much....I prefer my pretreatment mixture flat and dry

Vctrading I agree with GRH......Just jump on in!!!!..


----------



## PinkFreud (Mar 8, 2007)

Wow Justin I just read your last post.....very similar sentiments I must say


----------



## treadhead (Jul 26, 2006)

Justin Walker said:


> lol. Thanks! Pink and I have been going round and round with each other for well over a year now. We just recently made it to this board.  We are both very passionate about this technology, and neither of us pulls any punches when talking to each other.


Yes...I recognize both of you from a few other forums I check out now and then.  

The passion...and respect...actually shows through in the debates.

I'm very new to all of this but trying to absorb as much info as humanly possible.

Keep up the good work guys (and gals)!!


----------



## treadhead (Jul 26, 2006)

PinkFreud said:


> Tread....If you are using the new version of FastArtist you dont have to worry about the underbase and highlight settings as much....I prefer my pretreatment mixture flat and dry


Yes...that is what I am using. I'm in the process of "playing around" with the variouis settings in the underbase wizard (strength, dark / light area control, highlights, etc).  

As I told to Justin....keep up the good work. The back and forth is totally relevent to what I am currently living with my purchase. 

I am having no issues with whites and lights and knew about the white ink problems before buying the machine. So, I went into it with my eyes wide open based on this forum and others. I feel that this machine can pay for itself doing just whites & lights if marketed correctly (which I am also working on... ).


----------



## tomtv (Feb 6, 2007)

I guess it is good to see that some things never change!

tag, your it pink.

tom


----------



## Rodney (Nov 3, 2004)

> Rodney.....CafePress clearly states that the black shirt option is BETA...as you know this means it is still in the testing phase and prompt delivery is not guaranteed...under normal circumstances I would agree with you that the amount of unhappy customers would be unacceptable.


I know that CafePress has the black shirts in Beta. I'm very familiar with their business.

I also know that if the beta wasn't going well and if they were getting a high level of bad customer reports, they wouldn't be continuing the beta and adding more garment colors to choose from.



> We just recently made it to this board.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I hope that you'll both keep it professional on this forum.

I don't want previous debates and issues spilling over on this forum


----------



## oldkush (Jun 25, 2007)

*Re: Kornit Purchase. Do you lease or buy?*



GRH said:


> IMHO printing white ink with the smaller machines is just a novelty. If you count your time at minimum wage rates and sell at retail you can make a few bucks doing it. The process of printing white ink on these smaller machines has not evolved to the point you can make serious money doing it. I would guess that if the average user of these machines were to do a true accounting of costs including labor they would find they are loosing money printing with white ink.


I have looked at DTG printers for two years now and in all honesty, I'm not sold on any of the white ink printers .... but then maybe its just me.

Bob


----------



## bob emb (Apr 5, 2007)

*Re: Kornit Purchase. Do you lease or buy?*

Tahoe-

this is bob emb in nj i just got a kornit and am associated with tom tv printzilla and justin. any of them will tell you that the kornit white ink on black shirts or for that matter any shirt is top shelf better than anything out there. we do not have a lot of wasted shirts becasue of bad pretreat or lack oh white opacity.yes the machine is expensive but is a cinch to do maintainence on( if maintainence is not easy as it wasnt on the flexi you may tend to not do it, i always did the maintainence but i have heard and seen hooror stories) keep it clean and it will outlast any 15-20,000 dollar printer 3 times over and do white ink at a fraction of the cost. the epson and other machines have prints that have a flat look even if the color is great. look at the KORNIT it looks liked it was screened it has such depth. enough said i have no complaints about the price tag. you want to play big you got to pay big.

bob emb


----------



## bob emb (Apr 5, 2007)

tahoe

this is bob in nj. the price of the kornit will outlast any epson 4800 printer 3 times.

the print that is produces is in a class all by itself and is sort of like a 4 color process that a silk screener would do. i printed a great dane file on my flexi( which was sold) and printed the same file after ripping on the kornit and a customer could not believe it. the depth of color and texture that the kornit prints cannot be copied.

so yes it is expensive but to play big you gotta pay big.

also most people doing white ink on dtg printers have a least a 20-25% waste factor, and i think it is higher. there is no wate on the kornit.

bob


----------



## TahoeTomahawk (Apr 12, 2006)

I think the point I was trying to make was, yes printing with white ink CAN be profitable with most DTG printers. This thread has shown that using a Kornit can be MORE profitable, however I still don't agree that you must use a kornit to be profitable.


----------



## bob emb (Apr 5, 2007)

hi again tahoe-

you are correct you can make money with white ink but as you have read it seems to be a nightmare except for a handful like PINK et al. it is so simple with the kornit no mess no fuss no wondering if the pretreat will hold. but it seems like Pink can run shirts and make money that is great.

as justin said most people use the big kornit to make the comparison we are all using the 932D v ery succesfully.

regards,

bob


----------



## TahoeTomahawk (Apr 12, 2006)

Bob, most of us do realize that the kornit is more solid than a regular single head DTG printer. I'm guessing that's why the price tag is from 75-200k (or more) right?

Thanks for reiterating though.


----------



## GRH (Apr 25, 2007)

Pink doesn't count because it is known that he can print a white stripe on the back of a black cat as it walks by his T-Jet.


----------



## bund tees (Apr 28, 2007)

Holy biscuits I don't know what to do now - I am a hare's breath away from purchasing a TJet3 - it is affordable for my business and will hopefully do everything I need.

Most of my prints are on black tees but are one colour - so I assume 2 passes of white and 2 passes of the colour - my sales aganet reckons $3 max a t-shirt - which when I sell a tee for $25 is pretty good - works out about $15 profit a tee - 8 tees and hour.....$120 an hour...I can handle that.

To save money on the pretreatment paper just go to you local supplier of restaurant goods and buy a big roll of baking paper - does the same job.

So does anyone want to talk me out of a TJet 3 for a small time opertaor who want to print about 200-300 tees a week ?

I am all ears


----------



## DAGuide (Oct 2, 2006)

This is an easy one. Your prints are 1 color, why not use a vinyl? Much cheaper per a shirt, will last longer, faster time to produce, less of an investment, easier to learn, cutter will allow you to do other things (i.e. sign banners, windo clings,...) ... Just something to consider.

I would also be careful with a cost $3.00 per shirt for 2 passes of white and 2 passes of color. Seems a little low, but could be right depending on the size of the design.


----------



## vctradingcubao (Nov 15, 2006)

I wonder what process bund tees is using now to produce the shirts? With DTG, he/she will be able to print multiple colors.


----------



## GRH (Apr 25, 2007)

bund tees,

If you can sell 200-300 shirts a week at $25 plus you can definitely make money with a T-Jet 3. Most people buying these machines don't have that market. Many like me are forced to take small production runs to pay for the equipment. This is where you get into trouble. You start taking 20 shirt orders for $12 and many trick themselves into thinking they are making money at this rate.

If you master the pretreatment process I think you will find that you can do most prints with one pass white and one pass color. With one pass 1440 white and one pass 720 color the average ink cost per print will be about $3 to $4 each (large prints with a solid underbase can cost $5 or $6).

Restaurant supply houses are an excellent place to buy parchment paper.

With a T-Jet 2 I can get 6 to 8 prints an hour on dark shirts. The T-Jet 3 should be faster.

Regards,
GRH


----------



## ChameleonPrints (Apr 7, 2007)

While i have a T-jet 2 I don't use it for one colour artwork, especially on Dark shirts. It's faster and more profitable to cut, weed and press vinyl. $25 a shirt would be profitable although i think your cost estimate may be a little low if you are doing 2 passes white and 2 passes colour, I just think that unless you are planning to start offering more complex artwork designs then spending the money for a T-jet may not be the best solution for you. However, I have no desire to talk you into or out of anything... You know what your business is and only you can decide if a T-jet3 fits into that business.


----------



## bund tees (Apr 28, 2007)

I am using normally screen printing methods with water based opaque paints. this is going to seem a little naive but I dont' know what vinyl and cutting is.

We want to be able to offer customers custom tees in as any colours as possible. Even if it costs $4 a tee it still works out at a good profit margin - plus if printing on white tees or light tees only costs a $1 - I guess your tees on average cost $2.50 to print.

I just need to get cheaper tees of the excellent quality I have now - that would be much better for my bottom line


----------



## vctradingcubao (Nov 15, 2006)

Well, if you're already a good screen printer, and you already have a steady market, I guess a DTG will be a good additional option for your customers. Just don't forget that screenprinting will always give you the best quality at the lowest cost.


----------



## Justin Walker (Dec 6, 2006)

Just keep an eye out for your bottom line, and be realistic. If you do this, you will be fine. Expect $3-$4 for a single pass, medium-heavy coverage print on darks. Add .50 for the pretreatment. Then add $2 for the t-shirt. So your base total per dark garment will be hanging out in the neighborhood of $6.50.

Don't forget to factor in misprints, failed shirts that were not pretreated correctly, electrical overhead for whatever curing method you use, etc. Once you do this, divide your desired hourly NET profit by how many shirts you can do per hour ($80 / 10 shirts per hour?) and add that to the cost as well. As long as you can sell shirts for this price all day long (in this case, $14.50 per shirt) then you are in business! Remember you will rarely get your max production per hour, REGARDLESS of what machine you have, you will waste a ton of ink on simple cleaning procedures and startup (ghost expenses that we did not account for in this example), etc.

I personally think that if you get really good with the white ink, and you are patient, and you have such an awesome market, roll with it! Just be realistic, and be honest with yourself.


----------



## bund tees (Apr 28, 2007)

Cheers Byron - I guess it is the frustration of being able to do limited colours with screen printing - especially using water based as opposed to plastisol paints. Not to mention screen clogging etc.

Plus we make tees to order so by the time I set the screen up, get the paint etc, print the tee, clean the paint up then clean the screen it has taken the same amount of time as it would with a DTG.

We will keep using the screens for the designs we have now and the machine for new designs and custom tees.

I just hope the TJet3 is the right buy - but I guess one will never know until they try - also the TJet3 is on sale at the moment $14 995 US for any US people that are looking at buying.

Cheers Byron


----------



## bund tees (Apr 28, 2007)

Hmm thanks for the breakdown Justin - we are looking at selling the tees for about $25 each - problem is the tees we get here in Australia are closer to the $5 mark if you want excellent 205gsm tees.

Still though that is about $15 a tee worse case scenario - but more if we start selling more light tees - hell we might even up the price to $30. $30 isn' very much when you see people pay $60 - $90 a tee nowdays
Thaks a tonne for your help Justin


----------



## Justin Walker (Dec 6, 2006)

bund tees said:


> $30 isn' very much when you see people pay $60 - $90 a tee nowdays


That settles it - I am moving to your area. THAT sounds like a prime market!


----------



## kamikaze cabbie (Apr 3, 2009)

is it possible to silk screen the white first then print over that?...


----------



## vctradingcubao (Nov 15, 2006)

kamikaze cabbie said:


> is it possible to silk screen the white first then print over that?...


Yes, it's possible. But, you might want to screen print everything anyway.


----------



## Don-ColDesi (Oct 18, 2006)

> is it possible to silk screen the white first then print over that?...


We have experimented with it, it is difficult to get consistent registration between press and printer, though we have developed some ways to do it. Another concern is the different cure rates of plastisol and water based direct to garment inks.


----------

