# Proving a proof



## rms21040 (Apr 13, 2015)

Hey guys, do you provide a proof before or after a down payment? For me I have no way to provide one until I recieve a down payment because either way im going to have to pay my designer to provide me one so I need to be 100% sure that the order will go threw. How do you guys handle this?


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## DigitalMayhem (Aug 4, 2007)

From a customers point of view I don't think I would put down a deposit before seeing the design. 

Sent from my 831C using T-Shirt Forums


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## Mtnview (Nov 5, 2009)

By the sounds of your post you are doing custom artwork. I don't do artwork or send a proof until I get paid up front for that. I make it clear what is being included with the artwork service. You can separate your jobs into two parts. Artwork design and printing. Artwork is paid first then the printing services once the design is approved.


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## rms21040 (Apr 13, 2015)

Thank you both for the response. I agree that from the customers perspective this does not seem preferable but what am I to do? I cannot risk $100 or more on a job that is only potentially happening


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## Mtnview (Nov 5, 2009)

DigitalMayhem said:


> From a customers point of view I don't think I would put down a deposit before seeing the design.


If these are custom designs for the customers you need to educate the customer to the fact that you are creating something unique to them and that costs money. Time is money. They need to understand that designers (whether yourself or someone on the payroll) need to be paid for their time and talents.


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## rms21040 (Apr 13, 2015)

I also agree that splitting the printing service and design service into seperate jobs is most logical. How often do you guys have someone come to you with artwork already in a format you can work with? What formats do you accept artwork in?


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## rms21040 (Apr 13, 2015)

And yes these are generally people who come to me with drawings that then need to be vectorized. I dont have much experience with people who already have artwork


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## Mtnview (Nov 5, 2009)

rms21040 said:


> I agree that from the customers perspective this does not seem preferable but what am I to do? I cannot risk $100 or more on a job that is only potentially happening


If the customer was any good with designing themselves and had the tools & talent they wouldn't be going to someone else to do the work. Do they expect to have their oil changed at their favorite lube shop for only the cost of the oil? Hopefully from your interaction with the customer you can estimate the cost to produce artwork for their project. Depending on the project size (dollar size) you can let them know that the artwork fee will be credited to the order total.


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## Printor (Apr 16, 2015)

Never had a job turned down due to design. I do our graphics, but if I don't get a deposit for a print job, I get a deposit for graphics. I usually give them a few layout doodles to see what rout they want to go, then real design, then changes if needed. Graphic design and printing are really 2 different jobs as far as I'm concerned. They don't receive a usable vector file until the art is paid for, just a jpg proof if emailed. Is your designer an employee or are you outsourcing it. I wouldn't have much faith in a designer that needs full payment before they will start to draw. To me that sounds like their designs get rejected regularly. JMO.


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## Mtnview (Nov 5, 2009)

rms21040 said:


> How often do you guys have someone come to you with artwork already in a format you can work with?


Actually most of the time my customers have their logos somewhere in a format I use. We usually work with vector art. Once in awhile someone comes to me with only a business card or web graphic. In those instances they pay to have them converted into usable art.


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## splathead (Dec 4, 2005)

If you are paying others for your design work, then you should be getting that fee upfront from your customer. Don't come out of pocket for something that's not a sure thing.


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## Mtnview (Nov 5, 2009)

Printor said:


> Never had a job turned down due to design. I do our graphics, but if I don't get a deposit for a print job, I get a deposit for graphics.


Same here. I do our graphics and can't think of a time I outsourced. Then again I got familiar with Corel Draw in the mid to late 90s and taught myself how to do everything. Ok, maybe not everything. I still learn new things. If you are going to break away from depending on someone else for artwork you need to jump in and learn to do it yourself. Sure that's a scary thought but you have so many options to learning how to do things between Google, Forums and Youtube. There is a tutorial for anything you need. I didn't have Youtube when I started out but there were plenty of tutorials on the internet.


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## Printor (Apr 16, 2015)

I didn't really start leaning the puter till I started my own shop. I was always printing for owners who did their own graphics. They'd pull me from the shop when they needed a hand drawn look they could scan and color. I knew what perfect seps should end up like but didn't know what buttons they were pushing to get there. When I was started my shop I was going to rely on a awesome company I had experience with for seps and film, and they discontinued that service right when my biz plan was about to start sending them checks Talk about a crash coarse. I just started pushing buttons to see what happens Got a long way to go. I use Adobe. I was talking to and ex Adobe programmer a while back, and he said he would be surprised if there were 5 people in the world who actually know every last thing that Adobe is capable of. That made me feel a little better


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## rms21040 (Apr 13, 2015)

Thank you all so much for the feedback. I understand that a lot of you probably dont outsource your designing but I outsource mine to a childhood friend who's skills far exceed mine. To those who take care of the graphic work themselves, do you provide this upfront just because you dont need to physically pay someone else to? Shouldn't you consider your time the same way you would consider spending money to outsource?


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## Mtnview (Nov 5, 2009)

rms21040 said:


> To those who take care of the graphic work themselves, do you provide this upfront just because you dont need to physically pay someone else to? Shouldn't you consider your time the same way you would consider spending money to outsource?


Not sure what you mean by "provide up front". I hope you don't mean doing it for "free" just because I don't pay someone else. I get paid for my artwork service. If it is just a matter of 10 minutes of clean up I don't charge that. If I am creating something new that I will spend some time on I get paid for that by charging the customer. If I am working on graphics for a customer then that means I am not spending my time making money in other areas of my business. The customer will pay for that time. Bills still have to be paid.


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## Mtnview (Nov 5, 2009)

Here is an example. This past spring I was approached by the future owners of a new ice cream shop to design there logo. After discussing their needs with them I gave them a figure for designing the logo. The price included 3 revisions (not 3 start from scratch do overs) of what I presented them. I did present them with a couple different logos but the revisions would apply to one. I told them the fee was paid in advance and they accepted. A couple weeks after I delivered the final version they signed off on they decided not to pursue the ice cream shop as the cost of the build out were exceeding their planned budget. I think they were hoping I would refund the graphic fee. While I would have like to oblige them I spent time doing work for them.


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## splathead (Dec 4, 2005)

rms21040 said:


> Thank you all so much for the feedback. I understand that a lot of you probably dont outsource your designing but I outsource mine to a childhood friend who's skills far exceed mine. To those who take care of the graphic work themselves, do you provide this upfront just because you dont need to physically pay someone else to? Shouldn't you consider your time the same way you would consider spending money to outsource?


You shouldn't be providing camera-ready artwork to your client in your proofs. 

If they send you a sketch and want to see how it would look on a particular garment, take the sketch, place it on the garment mock-up, and send it back to them. No charge.

If they want you to take their sketch and create art from it for a mock-up, get money up front.


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## Mtnview (Nov 5, 2009)

rms21040 said:


> I agree that from the customers perspective this does not seem preferable


It is not a sin to make a profit in your business and you shouldn't feel guilty about making money from your services.


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## Biverson (Oct 20, 2014)

It also helps when you have a portfolio, whether it's on your website, Facebook, pictures, or production samples. If you start getting known for quality artwork (whether you did it it not) people will pay for it, and don't feel bad having people pay. 

My policy is 50% down on the order or full payment for graphics before works begins. Only exceptions are for schools sports.

I'm not the best at following this. 

I got a neat logo from a guy and bid out his apparel. Smaller order. The graphic was really neat so I went ahead and vectorized it as a challenge. I sent graphic mockups twice and then didn't hear anything for 5 days. I was pissed at myself for wasting time thinking he was going to go someplace cheaper. I sent a follow up email and luckily he was just behind on things.


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