# Pringles Potato Chip Embroidery



## myfinishingtouch (Nov 21, 2009)

I seem to be having difficulty embroidering 3-4" circular (100%) fill logos on frifit polo shirts. The one I'm working on now is 3.5". It is 23,000 stitches with a complete Tatami base in several wedge shaped segments with a 1/2" tatami ring on the outside with a satin border on the outer edge of the ring. I'm embroidering on two layers of heavy weight cutaway and the design ends up coming out liked a warped potato chip. The next thing I'm going to try is an underlay of the entire logo first in the color of the shirt prior to starting the logo itself with the separate underlays for each component. 

Any other ideas on how to get this thing to lay flat?

Thanks,
Dave


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## ShirlandDesign (Nov 29, 2009)

Darn things a study in *****y punching.
Hoop as tight as you can on the backing without stretching or distorting the shirt. Slow down the speed, sometimes a faster machine will tighten up the fills. Make sure the densities are not loaded up. Loosen up the primary tensioners. Use the smallest hoop you can. Shoot I'm going to watch this one to see what other people think will work. Good luck, I am looking forward to seeing the resolution on this one.


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## waynee (Aug 1, 2008)

I have fought this pringles effect many times, it can be a combination of so many variables:

Digitizing, you need a good underlay in the right direction for the particular shirt you're working with. I'm not familiar with the brand shirt you're doing and can't be more specific. What I've found is a 70° angle is a good starting point. Density on the underlay should be spaced about 1/8" and the the stitches should be about 3mm long.

The stitch directions of your design also matter, keep them as uniform as you can to avoid pulling the fabric in multiple directions unnecesarily. The base underlay does not negate needing underlay on these segments, you still need to have underlay there as well.

Density on your fills should be enough to look good, but no more, and the stitch length should be just right, play with both a bit and get to that golden spot.

It looks like the black section of fill on the outside where the text goes overtop is a circular fill, those are terrible for puckering and will almost always guarantee a pringle chip effect. Instead, go with a solid fill in one direction and then if you must have that "look" do it with a light fill overtop, but personally I would leave it off.

When embroidering, make sure your tensions are perfect (2/3rds thread, 1/3rd bobin), believe me this makes a difference.

What type of thread are you using? Polyester will stretch more before breaking, you might have some of that occuring that would give your design tension when hooped but pucker when unhooped. If you're using polyester play with the tensions a bit to make sure it's not causing a problem.

Hoop the backing with good tension but the top fabric should not be stretched. Use solvy even if you wouldn't normally it will help keep the top fabric in place during embroidery. For the backing, I'd recommend a cutaway piece followed by a layer of capbacking tear away. The tear away will support the fabric during embroidery but not add any hand to the garment when you're done.

Make sure your needles are causing any damage. Are they new? This sounds like a knit, use ballpoint and the smallest size you have 70/10 if you have them.


My experience tells me that this problem is 90% digitizing and 10% machine. Good luck, if you post a DST I might be able to give more advice.


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## bungy (Aug 24, 2006)

The pringle effect you are experiencing is called "cupping"
Can you post a pic of one of your samples? Or post a dst file, then others on here can run a sample and offer suggestions on how to fix it.

If you do post the file, please indicate what garment it is going on so we can do our sample on the same material.

"Cupping" is generally caused by too many stitches in the design for the garment it is being stitched on, along with the garment not being hooped properly.

As has been suggested in other posts above, check your hooping.
Reduce stitch count by using a combination of longer stitches and less density.
You may need to do a couple of samples to get it right.
Depending on the software used, for example, if your stitch length is currently 4.0mm or less then try 4.2 or 4.5mm.

I agree with the suggestion of a layer of cutaway and layer of tearaway behind the garment. If this is a pique knit polo (a knit) or a garment which is "stretchy", then also consider a hooping a layer of solvy on the top.


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## myfinishingtouch (Nov 21, 2009)

Here's a previous "chip" logo. The background tatami runs top to bottom and is spaced at .38mm and the stitches are 4.0 mm. There is a full tatami underlay running left to right spaced at 3 mm with a stitch length of 4 mm. I'll attach a .dst file (I had to put it in a compressed file) and a picture of the embroidered logo on a SanMar K459 shirt. I hooped it with 2 layers of the no-show backing (which I don't use any more).


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## bungy (Aug 24, 2006)

myfinishingtouch said:


> Here's a previous "chip" logo. The background tatami runs top to bottom and is spaced at .38mm and the stitches are 4.0 mm. There is a full tatami underlay running left to right spaced at 3 mm with a stitch length of 4 mm. I'll attach a .dst file (I had to put it in a compressed file) and a picture of the embroidered logo on a SanMar K459 shirt. I hooped it with 2 layers of the no-show backing (which I don't use any more).


If it was digitized using Wilcom, I would drop density to .40mm and lengthen tatami to 4.2. You should still get coverage at those settings. and you will lose a couple of thousand stitches.

I will run a sample from your file and post a pic of the result.


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## myfinishingtouch (Nov 21, 2009)

Here's the Wilcom file. Thanks for looking at my issue. I'm hoping that I don't have to add underlay under the entire design prior to stitching the logo as I'm afraid the underlay stitches might show through the top stitches. Although this isn't really an issue with this design since I didn't have to flatten anything but I have other designs where I can remove areas of the base circle by flattening and the top stitches are white and a blue underlay (blue shirt) might show through...if you understand what I'm trying to say.

Changing to .4/4.2 saved 742 stitches.

Dave


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## tfalk (Apr 3, 2008)

For each section, you will probably find that instead of increasing the stitch density, you are much better increasing the underlay at a 90 degree angle. The push/pull from each layer will even out and you will need less total stitches.


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## Liberty (Jul 18, 2006)

Rather than laying down a base of tatami underlay at 90 degrees to the fill, try this. Do a quick edge walk with a relatively short stich, around 1.5MM then instead of a pretty tatami underlay, do it by manually punching a randome series of stiches. Just a bunch of lines going different directions to tie the substrate down to the backing. It will look like an old school manually digitized base of stitches but by making it random you won't induce the curl.

On your design with a tatami ring around the three different triangle shapes, I would path it out so that the tone on tone underlay of the entire shape goes down, then the tatami ring, then the three triangle shapes and I would make the stitch angle different on all four areas. You've got a nice satin border to clean it all up. Then go in with the details.

And I can't imagine a need for more than one piece of backing on a design like this? And make sure you're not overstretching the substrate when you hoop.

Cupping is a beast when trying to put down large fills like this. Random stitch angles and a really weird looking underlay make all of the difference.

I'm surprised you didn't do this as an emblem rather than direct embroidery?


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## myfinishingtouch (Nov 21, 2009)

I hadn't been doing edge run on component parts of a design but have been wondering about that lately and if that would help stabilize the fabric. Wilcom has a function called Stipple --see attached picture. How about an edge run followed by a stipple fill and then maybe a regular tatami underlay?

We do the USAF logo on items using the USAF logo digitized by someone the AF paid and they digitized this logo with first an edge run and then two layers of very tight zigzag underlay before the top layer of tatami...doing this design had me wondering about using more edge run...which is right in line with your thought.


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## Liberty (Jul 18, 2006)

The curling is basically caused by the same effect as push, as you lay down the stitches, you push the substrate ahead of you. When the fill area is done, you've basically stretched the material out in the area of the stiches while the surrounding area is not stretched. The result can take all kinds of shaprs, like a pringle or concave like a contact lens. Laying down a large area of tatami is a lot like using a rolling pin on cookie dough and always rolling in one direction.

The key to preventing the curling is to avoid stitches that exagerate the push. Breaking large areas up into segments helps, the edge run helps, pathing the design differently helps, shorter stitches help (but not too short). It all adds up.

I've never used stipple stitch for this? It still kinda works from one side to the other but might be worth a try.



myfinishingtouch said:


> How about an edge run followed by a stipple fill and then maybe a regular tatami underlay?quote]


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## myfinishingtouch (Nov 21, 2009)

How short do you make your stitches? Wilcom default is 4.0 and I tend to run at 3.8 although I can't remember why. When you advise to avoid stitches that exaggerate the material push, what do you mean? 

Thanks,
Dave


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## Liberty (Jul 18, 2006)

Dave,

What I mean is to avoid long long columns and fills. It is always best to start/stop in the middle. If you look at the way wilcom does lettering it may help to visualize. Rarely do you do a letter l for example in one long column, it pushes too much. So you drop a couple stitches at the bottom, lay down underlay, go up to the top and start your column coming down, then at the halfway point you run down to the bottom and bring the bottom half of the colum upwards to meet in the middle. This will limit the push.

The same is true when laying down fills. It is sort of the opposite of how you path a cap design, instead of bottom up, center out, try doing outside in. The underlay becomes important so you avoid those little bunches of material that can develop sometimes.

stitch length, it depends, if I'm putting down a tatami with no other details coming back over then 3.8 to 4 might be OK. I will go down to 3.0 in cases where I'm coming back over top with small lettering or details to help minimize the fills pulling open. running stitches rarely over 2.0 to 2.5.

Stitch length is more of a pull issue though and I think this curling like this is a push problem.

This conversation is great for making us think about what we're doing! Love it! And can you imagine how the autopunch programs handle this? They don't, they just ignore it. 

Send me your EMB file for the design without the details, just the fills and sating border. I wouldn't mind playing with it a bit. mark at libertysportswear dot com

Mark


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## myfinishingtouch (Nov 21, 2009)

Mark,
I sent you the files. Thanks for looking at them. 

I watched the View-Slow Redraw of the A9 logo and the interior of the logo has three components Top, middle and bottom. The sewing order is top, bottom and then middle. It was interesting that Wilcom essentially did what you suggested and pathed the sewing of the different wedges on the top and bottom portions. It would sew most of the tatami fill and then run down to the bottom and finish the fill by sewing back upwards. 

Dave


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## myfinishingtouch (Nov 21, 2009)

OK, so I was trying to figure out why the wedges would sew out the way they did...sew from top to most of the way down and then down to the bottom and finish in the middle. What I discovered was that it was because of where I put the start and stop points of the different objects. I've always placed the start/stop points to minimize runs between objects but by placing the object exit point half-way up the object I force Wilcom to essentially path the object and sew from the outside in and perhaps helping to minimize the push/pull effect.


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## bungy (Aug 24, 2006)

Ok, I have run a sample. File attached is of design as run in pics.
Sample was stitched on a piece of standard jersey knit T-shirt material. I didn't have any interlock around, best I could do to match the San Mar Polo.

Two layers of cutaway, one layer of solvy on top.










To begin with, I think a lot of the problems stem from the fact that the big fill area (blue) is made up of vertical stitches.

I made the following changes:
Changed fill from 90deg to 4deg.
Changed fill stitch length to 4.5mm
Changed underlay to double tatami.

Rest of design just some pull comp changes.
Sorry about image quality, iPhone and not the best light.
But they show the results.


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## myfinishingtouch (Nov 21, 2009)

Steve,
I wasn't able to open the emb file...we have Wilcom ES2006. Is your version newer? Wilcom is offering an update to current for $650 and I'm toying with the idea of taking them up on their offer. But I'm able to digitize with what I have and am not sure what the benefits are of the newer version.

Anyway. First question. Solvy? I've never used solvy (we tend to think of it as gold) on a logo like this that is 100% coverage. What do you think it's doing for you?

Stitch angle. I agree the vertical stitches has to be what's cupping the shirt, but shouldn't you be able to work through this with the proper underlay? But truth be told, I was surprised your design didn't cup in the other direction. 4 degrees is practically horizontal. What stitch length and spacing did you use on the underlay? (questions that I could answer myself if I could open the design.) it's hard to tell from the picture but the underlay doesn't seem spaced too close together.

Thanks,
Dave


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## bungy (Aug 24, 2006)

Sorry about that, here it is in 2006 format.

Underlay - 4.5mm length 4mm spacing, one at 45deg the second tatami at 135deg

The solvy allows me to hoop the garment without having to "tease" out the shirt as much as without it.
Normally, when you hoop a garment, you then pull it to get it tight in the hoop, this can also over stretch the garment if you are not careful. So, by using the solvy (on lightweight and stretchy fabrics) you can get away with less pulling of the garment.

I am using Wilcom ES 1.5e, for what I do Level 1 is all I need for now. What version/level do you have now? I would seriously consider the update they offer they have at the moment, $650 sounds like a good deal. Especially if it is like for like, say from the old ES45 to ES1.5e Level 2.

I just had ES21L (lettering) when Wilcom had an upgrade offer a couple of years ago. For $1000 I could upgrade to ES1.5e Level 1. Great deal for me, saved a couple of thousand.

Before that I was using Capital Automation-EDS Imagine Mobile (which I still have) spent nearly $17,000 on that over the years. $10k initial purchase, $5k upgrade to next level, $2k for update to next version (version 6 to 7)


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