# Sublimation Ink w/Chromablast Paper on 50/50 shirts-results?



## LB

I was told by a very reputable source at Johnson Plastics that by using sublimation ink on Chromablast paper and pressing to a 50/50 shirt, very good results could be obtained. I do not doubt my source but I am wondering if others have tried this and how successful is it? I can't test it myself at this time because I don't have the Chromablast paper. The theory is that the sub ink bonds to the poly fibers and the paper causes the ink to bond to the cotton. I am also wondering about the durability in the wash.


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## Riderz Ready

What some people consider great results others will look at it as garbage. Simply ask JP to send you a sample and see how it wouks for you.


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## Conde_David

Chromablast paper is a good inkjet transfer
paper. So you could use it with other inks but
the Powerdriver or our ICC profile is tuned
for using the two together. 

I am not sure about dye migration after washing.

Let me know what you learn.


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## conde tech

Chromeblast is not for sublimation. If you are trying to sublimate to a 50/50 blend shirt, the poly fibers will sublimate, but the cotton will be very faded.


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## LB

Riderz Ready said:


> What some people consider great results others will look at it as garbage. Simply ask JP to send you a sample and see how it wouks for you.


OK, JP is sending some paper. We'll test this out and see what happens.


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## rawbhaze

I'm interested in the results. Assuming that the wax, alkaline and water compositions are in line with each other, my speculation is that the experiment image will look the same but possibly last longer than the intended use. A longer press time with possibly less pressure may be needed for the disperse dye to penetrate both the wax and binders.


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## LB

OK, I got the paper from Johnson Plastics for the test. I printed this on my Ricoh 3300 with no special settings using the Sawgrass Sublijet R inks on the Chromablast paper they sent. We tore the edges of the paper and used a teflon pillow in between and a teflon sheet on top. Prepressed for 10 seconds, then 375f for 45 seconds with a heavy setting (8) on Hotronix Swinger. 
The shirt is a Gildan 50/50 shirt from Walmart, about $3.00. 

I think the results are excellant. This has not been washed, so that will be the next part of the test to see how it holds up, but initially it looks as good as dye sub on poly. It has a little more hand than dye sub though, but still nice and soft.


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## Riderz Ready

That is pretty cool - someone was thinking over there at JP. Just curious - what was your motivation to try this? Did you have a client who wanted a 50/50 shirt or looking to be able to sublimate using less expensive t-shirts or ???

Let us know the wash results.


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## D.Evo.

Yes, please - do a wash test and post some pictures!


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## Progrfx Dave

I have used this for over 1 year now using 50/50 shirts and 100% cotton shirts. I have one of my test shirts on right now and it still looks good a little faded but it has been washed a lot. Works pretty good but i have found better color transfer with less temp. I run now about 360 Deg C. ALso now got into screen printing litte messy but a lot cheaper for what i am doing. still use sublimation for some jobs. 

Dave
www.promotablegraphics.com


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## headfirst

Quite interested in the wash test as well


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## Progrfx Dave

Here i pulle it off and took a picture. Remember this is a very heavy worn shirt washed about 30 - 50 times. Hope this worked new to this.

Dave
www.promotablegraphics.com


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## headfirst

Progrfx Dave said:


> Here i pulle it off and took a picture. Remember this is a very heavy worn shirt washed about 30 - 50 times. Hope this worked new to this.
> 
> Dave
> www.promotablegraphics.com


That's a 50/50 shirt?


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## Progrfx Dave

Yes that is a 5/50 Gildan shirt


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## LB

Riderz Ready said:


> That is pretty cool - someone was thinking over there at JP. Just curious - what was your motivation to try this? Did you have a client who wanted a 50/50 shirt or looking to be able to sublimate using less expensive t-shirts or ???
> 
> Let us know the wash results.


That someone is Kevin Lumberg at JP. The reason I tried it was that I have a potential client (that really doesn't know) telling me he want's Chromablast on cotton. Well, I have a sublimation setup and not a Chromablast setup, so in today's economy, you try to find ways to use what you have. I figured I could sell him on the 50/50's because they are better than cotton in my opinion and now the price is probably less than cotton. These would be small quantities of shirts for a local client.


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## Riderz Ready

Kevin is top notch - thanks for sharing.


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## rawbhaze

Please update with post wash pics, LB.


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## LB

AND I THINK WE HAVE A WINNER! Washed this in warm water and dried it on normal settings. I can see very little fading or migration in the result. Trust me..they are different photos, they are so close it's hard to detect the difference.


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## Riderz Ready

That is really cool. Props to Kevin at Johnson Plastic.


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## LB

Riderz Ready said:


> That is really cool. Props to Kevin at Johnson Plastic.


I think it gives us sublimnators another product to offer that's not as pricey as polyester. Lots of folks don't really like polyester too. True enough, the paper is .75 a sheet for a 8.5 x 11 but the shirts are way less than polyester.
Kudus to Kevin at JP.


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## mgparrish

conde tech said:


> Chromeblast is not for sublimation. If you are trying to sublimate to a 50/50 blend shirt, the poly fibers will sublimate, but the cotton will be very faded.


But the polymer of the Chromablast should sublimate. 

This concept is "prep paper" and has been around as long as sublimation has been around. The long term washing quality will depend upon the polymer of the paper remaining on the shirt long term. Some papers are excellent, others are NG.


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## mgparrish

LB said:


> AND I THINK WE HAVE A WINNER! Washed this in warm water and dried it on normal settings. I can see very little fading or migration in the result. Trust me..they are different photos, they are so close it's hard to detect the difference.


I haven't tried Chromablast but looks to be good to me. Additional tests should be done without washing, just keep a transfered shirt around without washing for 2 -3 weeks and see if any migration. Without any of the paper poly getting reduced by the washing process the shirt unwashed may still have "active" sublimation dye.

For those that ship finished shirts to customers this could be a problem since they are not likely to be washed immediatly, so further testing is required, but I have found some 50/50 "prep" transfers will not migrate.

100% cotton is usually a problem for migration though, but as I mention I haven't tried Chromablast.

Also, if you adopt this suggest to not ship or give customers shirts folded and stacked on each other. 

You can get "ghosting" on the back of the stacked shirts unless washed so need to place in plastic bags individually. Advise the customer to wash before stacking on other shirts, or keep seperate from other shirts until then.

Thanks for posting your pics. This gives others options if they only have a sublimation system and no pigment ink system.


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## rawbhaze

Here are my test results thus far. Unfortunately I had no idea that my pics were so grainy until after the fact, dammit. I will take better pics of the after shots and upload at a later time. I tried my best to match the lighting and angle that the pics were taken.

Here is the sample image. I chose it because of the color grid, the intensity and the highlights rely mostly on white.









I used the same 50/50 White Gildan blank as LB.

I used the same heat press settings as LB for pressing the Chromblast. I do not have the exact same press so my heavy setting may not match his. I used my normal press settings for the sub transfer.

I used a WF1100 for printing both. I used the ICC profile supplied by my ink vendor for printing both transfers.

I did not trim the Chromablast paper.

I don't remember where I read it but somewhere along the line was the suggestion to stretch the Chromablast transferred image after pressing in an effort to reduce hand. I did. I have never not done that so I can't make a comparison.

Side by side comparison before wash. Sub ink/Sub paper on left. Sub ink/Chromablast paper on right. The transfers are literally right next to each other, not photo edited that way. Followed by the results after one wash:

















Chromablast Before/After:









Sub Before/After Not sure why Photobucket resized the Before:









You can see the box from the Chromablast transfer if you really look for it. I assume that the darker the shirt the more noticeable it will be. I can see using a feather tear, as LB did, easily working on the majority of white garments. Perhaps mgparrish could make an educated guess as to whether the fabric content percentages would have different results based on their blend when it comes to the box transferring.

There is hand but man is it minimal. The average layman would have no idea, that's for sure. If you firmly pinch it from both sides and drag your thumb and finger you can feel the grain. It's easier to feel when the sub transfer is right next to it for comparison. Going slightly off topic, I l know that as a designer I am in the minority here but I don't know about you guys- I think a large part of the "no hand" hoopla is sales pitch. Being a runner and formerly doing BMX, I 110% understand the need for very little or no hand when it comes to sportswear. But as far as fashion goes, I'll sublimate a dress and not hesitate for a second to then add damn near 3 pounds of rhinestones to it. So much for no hand, eh? 

The wife is going to the spa today and taking the test with her for feedback from the ladies. After that I'll put it through another dozen washes. Then make adjustments as needed with my press. Then go on to explore results of other percentage blends and colors.


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## rawbhaze

Argh, those pics are so grainy and dark. I'm sorry guys. If the pics take too long to load and clog down the thread then I can move them to a separate post so that discussion can continue without disruption.

LB, have you done any other testing?


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## LB

rawbhaze said:


> Argh, those pics are so grainy and dark. I'm sorry guys. If the pics take too long to load and clog down the thread then I can move them to a separate post so that discussion can continue without disruption.
> 
> LB, have you done any other testing?


Not as of yet. My wife is the washer..I am the requester..if you know what I mean. We will most certainly continue to wash it as it is worn.


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## texasjack49

EXCELLENT post LB and all who contributed. It's been a while since I have seen some really useful info that applies to my business and opens up another possibility with existing equipment. Sometimes"can you sublimate on black" and "can you sublimate on 100% cotton" gets old.
Last time I talked to Kevin was in person and he was no longer with JP, I guess he went back. Good move on JP's part.


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## LB

Jack,
Thanks, I am always looking for things that make my life and hopefully others easier. I am with you with the redundancy of posts. So many new people coming in looking to strike it rich in the shirt business. Most of them don't realize the size of this forum and the thousands of posts that come into it. They also don't realize how many people they are already in the shirt business. 
Yes, Kevin is at JP, I spoke with him personally about the paper I used for this. He is alive and I hope well.


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## brice

rawbhaze said:


> You can see the box from the Chromablast transfer if you really look for it. I assume that the darker the shirt the more noticeable it will be. I can see using a feather tear, as LB did, easily working on the majority of white garments. Perhaps mgparrish could make an educated guess as to whether the fabric content percentages would have different results based on their blend when it comes to the box transferring.


I'm not sure the box you see isn't in the image. The background of the fruit is not pure white at it's whitest. I think that box is the off color / gray of the print, not a box from the paper. 

I'd really be interested in seeing the after after 10-20 washes. Tell your wife to get busy.  Good luck with that. ha ha.

Frankly I can't see much difference between sub ink/sub paper and sub ink/chroma paper in your examples because of the quality of the photos. Can you send me the originals I can run through photoshop to lighten them up... 

In the mean time I'm going to print sub ink / sub paper and press a 50/50 shirt. Are you suggesting only 45 seconds for that configuration? 

Clarification, did you press the sub/sub and sub/chroma on the same shirt at the same time?


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## mgparrish

rawbhaze said:


> *MGPARRISH Note - Some Photos and text trimmed from original quote.*
> 
> You can see the box from the Chromablast transfer if you really look for it. I assume that the darker the shirt the more noticeable it will be. I can see using a feather tear, as LB did, easily working on the majority of white garments. *Perhaps mgparrish could make an educated guess as to whether the fabric content percentages would have different results based on their blend when it comes to the box transferring.*
> 
> There is hand but man is it minimal. The average layman would have no idea, that's for sure. If you firmly pinch it from both sides and drag your thumb and finger you can feel the grain. It's easier to feel when the sub transfer is right next to it for comparison. Going slightly off topic, I l know that as a designer I am in the minority here but I don't know about you guys- I think a large part of the "no hand" hoopla is sales pitch. Being a runner and formerly doing BMX, I 110% understand the need for very little or no hand when it comes to sportswear. But as far as fashion goes, I'll sublimate a dress and not hesitate for a second to then add damn near 3 pounds of rhinestones to it. So much for no hand, eh?
> 
> The wife is going to the spa today and taking the test with her for feedback from the ladies. After that I'll put it through another dozen washes. Then make adjustments as needed with my press. Then go on to explore results of other percentage blends and colors.


Not really an educated guess .. but I would think the polymer of the transfer being transparent would be the key to success. So seems that fabric content would not matter since the transfer sits on top of the shirt. But could be possibility some paper/fabric reaction occurs if there are chemical differences shirt brand to shirt brand (i.e. sizing chemicals). 

So the only way to know IMO is to test on a variety of brands and make sure temp and dwell are consistant brand to brand.

Another paper candidate to test would be the "Clearsoft" "Iron-all for Lights" "Inkflex for lights" or "Translution" (IYA light paper).

My opinion is that the IYA light paper and it's various brands are not very good for a long lasting pigment based transfers (based on my extended wash testing) but since it is supposed to only bond to the shirt fibers it might be OK for using as a prep on 50/50. Would be interesting to compare that papers "box".

There is another recent thread here where one of the suppliers made this paper suggestion.


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## rawbhaze

brice said:


> I'm not sure the box you see isn't in the image. The background of the fruit is not pure white at it's whitest. I think that box is the off color / gray of the print, not a box from the paper.


You are correct that the image has it's own border but there is a separate border from the Chromablast paper. 



brice said:


> I'd really be interested in seeing the after after 10-20 washes. Tell your wife to get busy.  Good luck with that. ha ha.


The shirt has been washed and dried 12 times now. Neither of the images has lost any noticeable color since their state after the first wash. The border from the Chromablast is still visible if you hunt for it. I do believe that that's actually a good thing, however. It seems to indicate to me that A.) the dye sub ink reacted with the medium and B.) the medium is going to bind the ink to the cotton fibers past a dozen or so washes.



brice said:


> Frankly I can't see much difference between sub ink/sub paper and sub ink/chroma paper in your examples because of the quality of the photos. Can you send me the originals I can run through photoshop to lighten them up...


That's due to my dumbass using an iPhone for pics. They looked great when viewed on the phone. Uploaded to the PC... yeah... not so much. I will either do it all over again or at least take pics of what they look like now with a proper camera.

I know that all of the pics are grainy but the "grain" from the camera is black/darker. Look at all of the Sub/Sub pics and you'll see white specks that have nothing to do with the quality of the pics. The white specks are where the dye sub did not interact with the cotton fibers.



brice said:


> Clarification, did you press the sub/sub and sub/chroma on the same shirt at the same time?


Next to each other on the same shirt but not pressed at the same time.


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## big frank sports

LB - You said that you feel the border if you look for it - what if you ran the paper through a cutter before applying it to a shirt - could reduce that border you feel or see.

Frank


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## LB

big frank sports said:


> LB - You said that you feel the border if you look for it - what if you ran the paper through a cutter before applying it to a shirt - could reduce that border you feel or see.
> 
> Frank


I don't think I said that. Mine did not show any polymer window at all that I could tell. Please read that post again. We tore the edges of the paper and put a teflon pillow inside the shirt when we pressed it. I did state that it had a little more hand than what you would get on a 100% polyester shirt, which is true. 

But yes,to answer your question, if you cut it out that would do the job, but might be an overkill though.


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## rawbhaze

@LB tore the border to feather the transfer coating which is what I will be doing as well for production pieces. I was just curious as to whether it even needed to be feathered in the first place so I pressed the transfer as is. I had read that stretching the image after pressing would help reduce the window so I did. If I were to press an image that was nearly border to border then I would be comfortable with pressing the sheet as is rather than risk tearing the image by feathering. I suppose that if it were still an issue and this were a regular production garment then one could make a sort of guide jig that would allow you to tear quickly and consistently. Would likely be a faster option than running through a cutter.

But honestly that's overkill. Especially for white garments. My report was not a complaint, I was just trying to be as accurate as possible. For me to say that there was no window would have been hype. It was there but you really had to hunt for it.

I'm just about committed to Chromablast now. The sales pitch for r-trans in the other thread has me intrigued. It is significantly cheaper than Chromablast. I'd like to see/hear/read independent reviews of it being used as we are intending as well as get a sample sheet or two.


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## LB

Robb:
That's a 10-4 on the cost of the CB Paper.. JP is .75 a sheet. Between that and the ridiculous cost of Sawgrass ink for my Ricoh I flinch at the cost in general.


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## rawbhaze

I price checked the Chromablast paper with various vendors and they all had it priced exactly the same. I don't know if that's an arrangement with Sawgrass or what. The only way to save money from one vendor to the next is to take advantage of what shipping breaks, discount codes, promos, etc. that the individual vendors are offering.


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## freebird1963

You can use Epson matte paper also to sublimate. but its to expensive to be used daily. I had to to it in a pinch.
Really tho isn't what is needed is a paper to allow the ink to sit on top of it without running and smearing when printed. And not cost a arm and leg ?


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## LB

rawbhaze said:


> I price checked the Chromablast paper with various vendors and they all had it priced exactly the same. I don't know if that's an arrangement with Sawgrass or what. The only way to save money from one vendor to the next is to take advantage of what shipping breaks, discount codes, promos, etc. that the individual vendors are offering.


You know, in today's world, with information readily available to anyone that wants to look at a price, it's hard to scream "price fixing". However, when I can shop for a product in the sublimation industry and I find 10 vendors with the same prices on the same products, something just doesn't set well with me. I grew up in a world where price fixing on commercial products was illegal, apparently not so anymore. People used to go to jail over things like this.


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## rawbhaze

freebird1963 said:


> You can use Epson matte paper also to sublimate. but its to expensive to be used daily. I had to to it in a pinch.
> Really tho isn't what is needed is a paper to allow the ink to sit on top of it without running and smearing when printed. And not cost a arm and leg ?


In the traditional sense, yes. We're trying to get over the cotton hurdle with papers that have polymer based coatings that will both sublimate to the coating and then adhere to the fabric. Sublimation paper does not have that type of coating.

Someone please correct me if I am wrong but I believe desktop sub paper coatings is mostly wax based to achieve exactly as you have described.

Imaging Sublimation outside of the desktop and large (PC) format printer world is either printed on butcher/freezer paper or direct to fabric. A carrier is not required for disperse dyes to sublimate. Carriers are only needed when determining how to get the disperse dye to the desired location. AFAIK, none of the carriers used in other methods require the use of another chemical or additive in order to negate any alterations that the carrier made to the pH balance. The dye to carrier ratio would have to be adjusted accordingly so that a white carrier didn't turn the red dye pink or whatever.

I do not know the exact make up of sublimation ink or paper coatings but I believe the same applies. I adhered a 13x19 piece of polyester to contact paper and ran it through a WF1100. To my amazement, it printed perfectly until the last 1 1/2" where it streaked off of the roller. Perhaps a different knit or weave would absorb the ink better. Perhaps a slower printer setting would help. I only did it once so I don't know that the results would have been the same over a run. If so then it may be as simple as doing an image max size of 13x17. I was more curious than anything and didn't pursue it as I don't have a need for 13x19 cut'n'sew. =D That and sub paper is relatively cheap to begin with.

Anyway, I put a Teflon sheet over the fabric and pressed it on the normal settings. It sublimated, passed the wash test, etc. at 100% the same results as printer->paper->garment.


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## SweetExpression

I haven't tried this method yet, but I am very intrigued by the idea that dye sub ink can be used with good results. The cost of using the dye sub ink and the CB paper is offset by the ability to use less expensive blanks--50/50 shirts run several dollars less per piece compared to 100% poly shirts. Has anyone tried this method on a 50/50 hoodie?


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## brice

What I don't get is a white cotton T being under $2 and a white 50/50 being under $2 (and usually less than 100% cotton), but a 100% polyester being over $6. It just doesn't make sense. It's marketing. The can sell it as performance/moisture wicking so they jack up the price.


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## LB

brice said:


> What I don't get is a white cotton T being under $2 and a white 50/50 being under $2 (and usually less than 100% cotton), but a 100% polyester being over $6. It just doesn't make sense. It's marketing. The can sell it as performance/moisture wicking so they jack up the price.


IMHO it should be cheaper. Most people I run into hate the 100% poly. They want to sell it as new and improved but it is still hot and clingy looking to me. I have also found that the few Vapor Apparel garments we have bought run small in size. I hope our pursuit of this method with 50/50 pans out, coz I very frankly can't stand the stuff. (100% poly)


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## freebird1963

LB said:


> IMHO it should be cheaper. Most people I run into hate the 100% poly. They want to sell it as new and improved but it is still hot and clingy looking to me. I have also found that the few Vapor Apparel garments we have bought run small in size. I hope our pursuit of this method with 50/50 pans out, coz I very frankly can't stand the stuff. (100% poly)


Then you don't play sports. The shirts made of 100% poly are lighter, move sweat much better and don't start to have a heat activated stink to them after wearing them in hot weather for a short time.
I think your stuck in the Leisure Suit Larry times when it comes to the poly shirts. I sell and wear the Vapor Phenoms and they run right for size. 
And in the cooler weather the poly are warmer has they don't stay wet as long as the cotton shirts do. 
For fashion I don't know really but for athletics they can't be beat.


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## LB

freebird1963 said:


> Then you don't play sports. The shirts made of 100% poly are lighter, move sweat much better and don't start to have a heat activated stink to them after wearing them in hot weather for a short time.
> I think your stuck in the Leisure Suit Larry times when it comes to the poly shirts. I sell and wear the Vapor Phenoms and they run right for size.
> And in the cooler weather the poly are warmer has they don't stay wet as long as the cotton shirts do.
> For fashion I don't know really but for athletics they can't be beat.


Right. I'm not a sports guy. My experience with the stuff is with selling some to women (that also don't play sports). To each his own, like I said, IMHO. Thanks for educating me.


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## brice

I wear a poly polo just making calls on my clients and the stuff is clingy and heaven forbid it be hot out because I bake in the thing. It's ridiculous the vendor selling calls it moisture wicking performance apparel. NOT! I wear a cotton t under the damn thing and it's quite comfortable. 

I still think that a $5-6 wholesale t-shirt is ridiculous.


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## LB

brice said:


> I wear a poly polo just making calls on my clients and the stuff is clingy and heaven forbid it be hot out because I bake in the thing. It's ridiculous the vendor selling calls it moisture wicking performance apparel. NOT! I wear a cotton t under the damn thing and it's quite comfortable.
> 
> *I still think that a $5-6 wholesale t-shirt is ridiculous.*


*
* 
Me too. Probably sewed in a sweat shop too (and their probably not wearing them to wick up the moisture)


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## rawbhaze

I did some testing with Chromablast and the Rave X4 hairspray on 100% cotton white Hanes undershirts. All have been washed once. One of which I am very surprised and eager to see how it looks after another dozen washes. Still no luck in obtaining r-trans samples.

Guide: Ink used/transfer paper used/additives used. Comments on appearance are based on one wash/dry cycle.

Sub/sub/hairspray-
Followed the directions per the other thread. Use butcher/freezer paper the size of your upper platen. No problems with the pressing. Did not have success like the ladies reported the had. Mine looks about like the result of sublimating to a 50/50. Has a grainy hand. I jokingly say that there's not a border. I sprayed all over so if there were to be a border it would be be the size of the platens. I won't be pursuing this further for the time being. I am interested in the idea of spraying sub sheets and then pressing to 50/50 and may try that later.

Sub/Chormablast/hairspray-
Common sense should have told be that this was a bad idea. The binders from the transfer and spray made the transfer damn near possible to remove from the shirt. Some is still left on the shirt. Not that it matters but it too is grainy.

Sub/Chromablast/none-
Used my normal settings as if it were Sub/Sub. My results match those of the same combination used on 50/50 that I posted earlier in the thread. I'm surprised. It takes significant stretching of the shirt to show the white ribs of the fabric. That tells me that the ink is adhered at a "lower level" (for lack of better term) and not just sitting on the surface. If that's the case, it should extend the wash fastness of the image. I will give it another dozen laundry cycles and see how it goes.

The majority of my work at this time is boutique quality blouses. Women's clothing is rarely 100% of one fiber. Most blends consist of one natural and one synthetic. The percentage make-up is all over the board. It appears as though Sub/Chromablast/none very well could be my new go to method.


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## brice

I was provided a way to oversaturate the images in Corel and it had a modest improvement of sub on subaper for 50/50 shirts. Still not great.


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## eagleact

The chromablast or rtrans would just print on lights?
I print to 50-50 white and lights with what I consider great results already.

Would there be a paper for darks that I could try this process?
Print sublimation to Some type of paper and press to dark 100% cotton would be incredible.

I am searching for some type of dark solution.

Thanks.

Brent


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## brice

Brent, it's never going to happen. when you add color (sublimation) to color, you get black. Now, if they ever come up with some kind of material you could sublimate onto and then press onto a shirt, that might be possible... But if you are doing that why not buy a solvent printer and print onto the currently available and soft hand printable materials?


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## LB

Have not tried this product, so use this at your own risk, but here is a site that has a product said to do what your looking for Sublimation Paper, dye sublimation paper, sublimation transfer paper
I also found this article and it speaks of "dye sub dark" -check it out Dye sublimation training


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## mgparrish

brice said:


> *Brent, it's never going to happen*. when you add color (sublimation) to color, you get black. *Now, if they ever come up with some kind of material you could sublimate onto and then press onto a shirt, that might be possible...* But if you are doing that why not buy a solvent printer and print onto the currently available and soft hand printable materials?


Already happened a long time ago ... 

Air Waves Store "The World Leader in Heat Applied Graphics".



Any white polymer can sublimate if it can withstand the heat press near 400 degs. Even white toner can sublimate (weedfree) ... but I can't let that cat out of the bag yet.


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## Conde_David

Can you please clarify your post?
Are you saying the white toner turns into
a sublimation gas? Or that you sublimate into the
white toner?


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## mgparrish

Conde_David said:


> Can you please clarify your post?
> Are you saying the white toner turns into
> a sublimation gas? Or that you sublimate into the
> white toner?


White polymer can be sublimated to in it's various forms.


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## Wynpotter

I was wondering if plastisol white ink screened on cotton would allow sublimating? Maybe something on a transfer sheet or a trans reversal sheet. Just throwing out ideas.
Is there a laser printer that has a white toner? I just can't get the reversing order in my head so the white goes to the shirt first
Wyndham


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## mgparrish

Wynpotter said:


> I was wondering if plastisol white ink screened on cotton would allow sublimating? Maybe something on a transfer sheet or a trans reversal sheet. Just throwing out ideas.
> Is there a laser printer that has a white toner? *I just can't get the reversing order in my head so the white goes to the shirt first*
> Wyndham


Why would the white have to go to the shirt first?


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## brice

There is no value to sublimate onto a surface and thenress that surface to a shirt. A lower cost solution exists, solvent print onto heat press vinyl.


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## eagleact

I actually have a Roland versacamm.
We find the print-cut-weed process to be very cost ineffective. Also you have art limitations like having small art elements on back grounds.

We also are facing a difficult time finding a good soft feel material now. In the past we ran siser evolution. We have had a few issues with it recently. 

All other materials that I have seen do not feel as soft. They feel plastic or paper like. My customers and I do not like it.

I would love to hear about any new materials that you consider the best new soft material out there.

We just love sublimation. Print it and hit it. Out the door and total "retail" quality.

I am looking for a dark solution that is a more of a print and hit solution. The only thing I have found so far is magic paper but is cost prohibitive for my markets. Other laser papers either do not feel nice or have visual problems, etc...

I will check into the darks solution in a couple if the other posts. I have looked into those web sites but something held me back.

Thanks.

Brent


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## eagleact

Brice--- you mentioned no value to sublimate to transfer paper due to cost. With wide format sublimation I would think the cost sublimation and then transfer paper would be cheaper than Roland materials.

Especially if you consider the time involved to print-cut-weed-mask Roland transfer.

Or I am missing something? I did check out the air waves site. It is certainly expensive...

Thanks.

Brent


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## mgparrish

eagleact said:


> Brice--- you mentioned no value to sublimate to transfer paper due to cost. With wide format sublimation I would think the cost sublimation and then transfer paper would be cheaper than Roland materials.
> 
> Especially if you consider the time involved to print-cut-weed-mask Roland transfer.
> 
> Or I am missing something? I did check out the air waves site. It is certainly expensive...
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Brent


The airwaves 2 step opaque hand is heavy, it will not crack though. Not sure how it compares to vinyl since I don't have a cutter. I thought that around the forums (this and others) some posters mentioned it could be cut. I just used it as a rectangle shape transfer.


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## brice

eagleact said:


> Brice--- you mentioned no value to sublimate to transfer paper due to cost. With wide format sublimation I would think the cost sublimation and then transfer paper would be cheaper than Roland materials.
> 
> Especially if you consider the time involved to print-cut-weed-mask Roland transfer.
> 
> Or I am missing something? I did check out the air waves site. It is certainly expensive...
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Brent


I agree, that's why I'm saying neither approach is really a volume cost performer. I've never tried it, but I'm told if you transfer paper you can sublimate it will leave a hand where ever the paper is and I'm not going to spend time manually cutting around a design to reduce that hand. Time is money.


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## eagleact

I just called Air Waves. It is essesntially not volume production piece by any means. The gentleman acted like it did not work very well in the first place. Also you have to cut it or use rectangle shapes. 
Brutal.
Someone is going to to get rich when they invent a "true" way to sublimate to cotton and darks...without the weeding, hand, hassle, etc... I am a firm believer it will happen. Actually it doe not have to be sublimation...any process. Laser seems to be the closest but either the cost or the hand or the quality is an issue with all of them I have inspected.

Mparrish was hinting at a solution in an earlier post. Maybe he is on to something!

Brent

Thanks.

Brent


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## mgparrish

brice said:


> I agree, that's why I'm saying neither approach is really a volume cost performer. I've never tried it, but I'm told if you transfer paper you can sublimate it will leave a hand where ever the paper is and I'm not going to spend time manually cutting around a design to reduce that hand. Time is money.


Papers like Chromablast and JPSS, Iron-all for lights, etc have virtually no hand after washing. The issue is how much "box" effect is still showing after the transfer. Some papers do really well on whites and can only detect the "box" if you look very very close. I don't trim JPSS on white garments.


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## freebird1963

eagleact said:


> Someone is going to to get rich when they invent a "true" way to sublimate to cotton and darks...without the weeding, hand, hassle, etc... I am a firm believer it will happen. Actually it doe not have to be sublimation...any process. Laser seems to be the closest but either the cost or the hand or the quality is an issue with all of them I have inspected.


Since all darks in dye sub start out white why don't you just go the cut and sew route ?


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## eagleact

Most people do not want to pay for the cut 
and sew method. I am currently searching for suppliers to 
achieve a price level my customers would utilize.

I have a 40x44 heat press so I just need the cut and sew portion.

Thanks.

Brent


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## eagleact

mgparrish said:


> Papers like Chromablast and JPSS, Iron-all for lights, etc have virtually no hand after washing. The issue is how much "box" effect is still showing after the transfer. Some papers do really well on whites and can only detect the "box" if you look very very close. I don't trim JPSS on white garments.



I sublimate to white, lights, khaki, etc... 
50-50's without any extra steps. While it does not pop like poly it looks just slightly vintage or washed out. We are selling it like crazy.

I just need a solution for darks to produce in house.

Thanks. Brent


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## 34Ford

I gotta ask. I have a 100% cotton Gilden t-shirt on now that has a image I put on with JPSS and a r1900 with pigment ink. Been washed more times than I can remember, and still looks ok other than a little lighter, feels soft.

Im sure all of you have used JPSS.

So how is this Chromablast and sub ink better than pigment ink for white cotton t's?


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## LB

34Ford said:


> I gotta ask. I have a 100% cotton Gilden t-shirt on now that has a image I put on with JPSS and a r1900 with pigment ink. Been washed more times than I can remember, and still looks ok other than a little lighter, feels soft.
> 
> Im sure all of you have used JPSS.
> 
> So how is this Chromablast and sub ink better than pigment ink for white cotton t's?


That's not the issue with the thread. The significance of this is that if you own a sublimation system and that is all, your system can be used on a less expensive or maybe a more desirable garment (50/50 etc) without changing printers and ink. JPSS is a good paper and with pigmented inks does a great job, but requires just that, pigmented inks and a printer capable of printing with them.


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## 34Ford

So theres no difference in the final outcome on the shirt, unless you want 50/50 blend, or mugs, coasters, etc.

I thought if there was a significant difference in vibrancy or longer life I wouldn't have a problem owning both printers.


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## LB

34Ford said:


> So theres no difference in the final outcome on the shirt, unless you want 50/50 blend, or mugs, coasters, etc.
> 
> I thought if there was a significant difference in vibrancy or longer life I wouldn't have a problem owning both printers.


That remains to be seen. There are some participants in this thread that have stated they have been doing this for years. If you will look back on some of the first pages, there are photos posted of a shirt that is 50/50, done with sub ink and still looks good after many many washes. 
Now, if you own a sub system, and apply it to 100% polyester, that is hard to beat from an appearance and longevity standpoint. The cost is now the issue. This is the issue here, the cost and availability of the garments.


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## GEORDIEBOY

Hi,

I am a belated comer to this forum/thread and a bit of a novice with shirts but not sublimation (So some of my statements may appear a little naive). I have very recently tried using Chromoblast paper with sublimation inks (Sublijet IQ) printed on white 50/50 shirts and white cotton shirts and find (a) that the ink sits "heavily" on top of the paper, even seeping slightly into other colours or into the margin (powerdrive setting = high quality). The prints on both 50/50 and cotton are very good and washability to date (less than 12 washings in cold water and shirt inside out) is also very good. I have also printed with the powerdriver setting = high speed with crisp printed images i.e. no excess ink and surprisingly good imprint images on the shirts.
Can anyone tell me if (a) is there any solution to the ink sitting heavily on the chromablast paper (b) have anyone experienced dye migration since your last postings and (c) which shirt will reduce the chances of dye migration - 50/50 or cotton.

Many Thanks.


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## Riderz Ready

You should never have that much ink sitting on the paper. It should be virtually dry coming out of the printer. Maybe black will remain slightly wet but that is it. If your ink is that wet you are dropping way too much ink. Remember when you get a profile from people who sell ink it really is not in their best interest to create profiles that use the least amount of ink possible. Think of the numbers - even if a profile uses as little as 20% more than it needs to a vendor sells 20% more ink without lifting a finger. Although not practical for most desktop users this is one of the key reasons wide format uses RIPS. You can dial back your ink until you start to see a loss of quality. 

A real life example for those wondering how much can one save in ink cost by switching to wide format. You will first save on the cost of the ink. For us switching to wide format was dramatic. Our ink today is 1/10 the price we paid when desktop format. Add to that we use 40% less ink using a professional profile versus the profile provided by the desktop vendor. A couple other cost savings by not having to use poor quality ink from Sawgrass is you have no clogs thus no waste and you eliminate having to replace heads which Sawgrass inks chews up.

To me there is a big potential market for a small scaled back RIP if it was affordable to the dektop market. Even for us the RIP is really nothing more than a tool to control the ink useage. We use maybe 10% of what Wasatch can do simply becuase it targets so many markets outside of dye sub. If someone created a RIP that controlled ink at a low cost desktop users would be shocked, as we were, how much ink they are wasting day after day. The Sawgrass Cartel would be spinning trying to figure out how to make up for all the lost ink sales they would soon be experiencing.


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## GEORDIEBOY

Hi Riderz Ready,

Many Thanks for your contribution. Wide Format is something I must research etc. I suspect the ink problem has much to do with the Chromablast paper i am using as it is somewhat "foreign" to the inks I am using.


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## Riderz Ready

GEORDIEBOY said:


> Hi Riderz Ready,
> 
> Many Thanks for your contribution. Wide Format is something I must research etc. I suspect the ink problem has much to do with the Chromablast paper i am using as it is somewhat "foreign" to the inks I am using.


From your description you are simply dropping too much ink on the paper. I would guess has little to nothing to do with the paper itself.


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## mrpintor

how about we all rally together and get those big companies to stop selling DTG printers at such ridiculous prices and offer something we could all afford. 

how cool would it be to print a full color image onto one black tee if thats all a client wanted? and no screen set up or cleaning after. no fear of a heat transfer peeling or cracking. no trying to explain why we cant sublimate the image for them on a black shirt....or telling them why we have to charge so much for a 100% poly shirt that they may not even like after washing due to the shirt getting tiny lint balls all over it (anybody else have that issue with the vapors?)?. 

would any of you agree to screen print a full color image (ed hardy-ish as an example) on one black tee if a client asked you to? if so..how much would you charge that client? probably alot more than if you were to use a DTG printer right? i dream about having a DTG..but for now the only way thats gonna ever happen is if i sell my car.


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## Riderz Ready

mrpintor said:


> how about we all rally together and get those big companies to stop selling DTG printers at such ridiculous prices and offer something we could all afford.
> 
> how cool would it be to print a full color image onto one black tee if thats all a client wanted? and no screen set up or cleaning after. no fear of a heat transfer peeling or cracking. no trying to explain why we cant sublimate the image for them on a black shirt....or telling them why we have to charge so much for a 100% poly shirt that they may not even like after washing due to the shirt getting tiny lint balls all over it (anybody else have that issue with the vapors?)?.
> 
> would any of you agree to screen print a full color image (ed hardy-ish as an example) on one black tee if a client asked you to? if so..how much would you charge that client? probably alot more than if you were to use a DTG printer right? i dream about having a DTG..but for now the only way thats gonna ever happen is if i sell my car.


First - you are totally lost in understanding dye sub or the entire industry as a whole. You think cheap DTG is the answer? First go look at the number of used DTG machines pop up in the classifieds? Why is that? Maybe becuase there are so many people fighting for the same business that it is difficult to make a living at it. Maybe it is because the maintenace on them is incredibly high? There is no single answer - whether it be screen printing, DTG, dye sub, dye sub cut and sew, embroidery you have to understand the technology and how to apply it to a specific market. You are looking for the perfect system that does everything for little money - it does not exist. 

Your issues with Vapor shirts is again one of not being educated. If you mix things like towels or other like material in the wash with any synthetic material all the shedding from the towels will embed in the shirt. 

It gets frustrating at times reading post after post of what dye sub cannot do when there is so much more it can do and with alot higher margins if you know how to be creative and do something other than a t-shirt.


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## mrpintor

well...like i said..i dont know too much about dtg..but from what little i have read about it..it just seems to be the way to go if you want to be able to print short runs of full color images on tees..especially black. you say its "cheap"...what exactly do you mean? ive seen shirts printed this way and i like the quality and feel. you also mentioned the high cost of the machine and the maintenance..well that was exactly my complaint. why are they so much? even a used one is out of my reach. and you mentioned the high cost of maintenance..also has me asking why? ive seen diy dtg that work pretty well..and seem to put out the same quality as the big machines yet they do not seem too complex so im guessing maintenance on one of those would be relatively inexpensive. my question to you is..if these big companies decided to bring thier prices down to lets say under $1000..and kept the cost of maintenance pretty low by not charging so much for parts and ink..wouldnt it be as close to the "perfect" printing method as there could be? if no why not?

as for the polyester shirts..you are right. since i do not do the washing here i just never knew other garments would have that effect on them. but it seems im not alone in my ignorance since ive had a couple of clients complain about the small lint balls. 

i do understand how much you can do with sublimation..but my thing is shirts and only shirts. so its not a question of getting creative and printing mousepads and plates and tiles and so on. it just sucks that i cant print one or two black tees with a nice full color image because i dont like the feel of transfers for darks and i certainly dont wanna deal with setting up and cleaning up screens for only two shirts. so in my mind it was "dtg to the rescue!!" hahaha. oh well..ill just stick to my original idea and sublimate distressed vintage designs using 50/50 shirts. they seem to sell pretty well.


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## texasjack49

mrpintor said:


> well...like i said..i dont know too much about dtg..but from what little i have read about it..it just seems to be the way to go if you want to be able to print short runs of full color images on tees..especially black. you say its "cheap"...what exactly do you mean? ive seen shirts printed this way and i like the quality and feel. you also mentioned the high cost of the machine and the maintenance..well that was exactly my complaint. why are they so much? even a used one is out of my reach. and you mentioned the high cost of maintenance..also has me asking why? ive seen diy dtg that work pretty well..and seem to put out the same quality as the big machines yet they do not seem too complex so im guessing maintenance on one of those would be relatively inexpensive. my question to you is..if these big companies decided to bring thier prices down to lets say under $1000..and kept the cost of maintenance pretty low by not charging so much for parts and ink..wouldnt it be as close to the "perfect" printing method as there could be? if no why not?
> 
> as for the polyester shirts..you are right. since i do not do the washing here i just never knew other garments would have that effect on them. but it seems im not alone in my ignorance since ive had a couple of clients complain about the small lint balls.
> 
> i do understand how much you can do with sublimation..but my thing is shirts and only shirts. so its not a question of getting creative and printing mousepads and plates and tiles and so on. it just sucks that i cant print one or two black tees with a nice full color image because i dont like the feel of transfers for darks and i certainly dont wanna deal with setting up and cleaning up screens for only two shirts. so in my mind it was "dtg to the rescue!!" hahaha. oh well..ill just stick to my original idea and sublimate distressed vintage designs using 50/50 shirts. they seem to sell pretty well.


I agree 100%, DTG printers should sell for $1000, new cars should sell for $1500 and nice homes should sell for $3,000. Of course T shirts would then sell for .05 cents each and our pay would drop to .25 cents an hour so they could still make a profit at the new price structure.
Just think if 8 out of 10 people in this country owned a DTG printer, how much could you sell your T's for?


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## freebird1963

I had gotten a email from ACP Technologies about their paper being able to do dye sub on 50/50. They will send a sample out.
Here' s the link to the newsletter.
[media]http://acp.com/newsletter.pdf[/media]

I got some and printed to a 50/50 and did pretty good. Tho I have not tried any other paper with dye sub ink and cotton containing shirt.
THere was a hand when pressed and seemed to have it somewhat after washing but never felt it while wearing the shirt. And after wearing it all day at work for 10 hrs there is even a less of a hand.

I printed a all black image from a civil war battle and a collage I did in Photoshop of my nephew playing football.

Overall good detail in the images and after only one wash looks pretty good. 

If you get some when pressing use some pressure. First one I did I didn't and the middle of the image did not press.

Good Luck
Mark


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## GEORDIEBOY

Not sure if you received my thanks mark but here goes. I have had good results (to date) with Sublimation inks and Chromablast paper as long as I print with High Speed; If i use High Quality I get way too much ink on the paper. My concern is the possibility of dye migration "down the road`.

Many Thanks.


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## aranthorn

This may be the post I've been waiting to read my entire life... I'm going to give it a try


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## jemmyell

freebird1963 said:


> I had gotten a email from ACP Technologies about their paper being able to do dye sub on 50/50. They will send a sample out.
> Here' s the link to the newsletter.
> [media]http://acp.com/newsletter.pdf[/media]
> 
> I got some and printed to a 50/50 and did pretty good. Tho I have not tried any other paper with dye sub ink and cotton containing shirt.
> THere was a hand when pressed and seemed to have it somewhat after washing but never felt it while wearing the shirt. And after wearing it all day at work for 10 hrs there is even a less of a hand.
> 
> I printed a all black image from a civil war battle and a collage I did in Photoshop of my nephew playing football.
> 
> Overall good detail in the images and after only one wash looks pretty good.
> 
> If you get some when pressing use some pressure. First one I did I didn't and the middle of the image did not press.
> 
> Good Luck
> Mark


This is the Fab-U-Trans paper right? Was there a noticable 'box' aorund the image? Did you try heather grey or baby blue shirts, maybe pink?

-James


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## freebird1963

jemmyell said:


> This is the Fab-U-Trans paper right? Was there a noticable 'box' aorund the image? Did you try heather grey or baby blue shirts, maybe pink?
> 
> -James


Yes on paper.
No box that I recall.
No on colors. Just white.

Mark


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## aranthorn

So here's what I am trying:

Ricoh GX7000 printer using SubliJet ink is my sublimation setup, I am not going to change that.

I have ordered ChromaBlast media from Conde _*and*_ Digi-Coat Clear Sublimation Coatingfrom digicoat.com (actually, from transfersupplies.us as I am in the US and digicoat is in England)

I am going to try a 50/50 cotton/poly blend shirt first with the same graphic using both products. I'll post results when the materials arrive.

FYI, here is the info I received from DigiCoat:


> ----- Original Message -----
> _<personal info snipped out>_
> Sent: Friday, 2 December, 2011 3:41:41 PM
> Subject: Form submission sent
> 
> You have received a submission from The Digi-Coat contact form.
> _<personal info snipped out>_
> Message: I am looking for product that improve the transfer of sublimation to a 50/50 cotton/poly blend shirt. I saw your company mentioned on t-shirtforums.com but there's no details on the product the person used. Do you have anything I can try?
> 
> 
> 
> ----
> 
> Hi
> www.transfersupplies.us
> 
> Digi Coat Cotton
> 
> Spray the area of the T Shirt you wish to image with Digi Coat Clear
> 
> Place t-shirt under heat press at about 200c degrees for 1 minute to dry coating. Do not close the lid of the press keep it about 1 inch away from the shirt
> 
> Place sublimation transfer on t shirt and sublimate at 180c for 50 seconds with Teflon sheet
> 
> Result is a very very good transfer that does quite well in the wash tests we have done.
> 
> -----
> 
> Paul Hirst
> Octi Tech Limited
> Octi-Tech - world leader in sublimation
> 
> Tel +44 114 245 4494
> 
> Paul@paul-Hirst.Com
Click to expand...


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## jemmyell

freebird1963 said:


> Yes on paper.
> No box that I recall.
> No on colors. Just white.
> 
> Mark


Thanks!

I just requested samples.

-James


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## RecreationalTees

I know this is an older post but it contains the information i have been looking for. I am going to try this and I will post my results on a separate new thread.


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## LB

RecreationalTees said:


> I know this is an older post but it contains the information i have been looking for. I am going to try this and I will post my results on a separate new thread.


I posted it originally. My wife had on the shirt yesterday. Considering the number of times it has been washed since the original post it looks pretty good. Not to say it hasn't faded some but nothings perfect.


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## 102557

Has anyone tried the poly pretreat thats used to pretreat cotton/poly prior to printing with a dtg??? Im a dtg guy and have tried alot of things but dont have the sublimation ink for testing.. After reading these posts its very intriguing to say the least!! (at least for the white /light shirts) I will be talking to the manufacturer regarding my question aswell, if someone doesnt try it/test it i may bite the bullet and get some dye sub inks for testing myself.. Im also interested in poly pretreat/and direct printing dye sub ink results.. we make our own dtg machines so this isnt a big risk..
Finally can someone reccomend the best sub inks/profiles and where to buy? whats the typical maintenace requirements with dye sub inks and epson based printers? Any helpful tips would be appreciated with the dye sub end of things..


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## printimpression

LB said:


> That someone is Kevin Lumberg at JP. The reason I tried it was that I have a potential client (that really doesn't know) telling me he want's Chromablast on cotton. Well, I have a sublimation setup and not a Chromablast setup, so in today's economy, you try to find ways to use what you have. I figured I could sell him on the 50/50's because they are better than cotton in my opinion and now the price is probably less than cotton. These would be small quantities of shirts for a local client.


That's really interesting - did you get a 'window' around the design? 

I have 2 A3 richo's one with chromablast ink and one with sublimation ink - I have been disappointed with the chromablast ink & paper as it leaves a window around the image and is not at all like sublimation printing and am currently looking for ways to over come this. Your input would really be appreciated!

Thanks Teresa


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## LB

Teresa,
Look back on the first page of this thread to my post with photographs on July 7 of 2011. You be the judge.


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## 102557

Has anyone tried this product (poly pretreat coating)? Polyester Coating- T-shirts Dye Sublimation Ink - Set | eBay


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## jemmyell

Hi,

Yes, we tried it. It was a real mess, the dye sub ink bled and it washed out. It was also stiff and scratchy, not what you want from sublimation at all.

-James


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## turbo123

Can anybody put up some sample pictures of tshirts they have printed on are are 50/50 ?


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## captbob1957

Hi Everyone, I am new to the site and would like to share my experiences sublimating various kinds of apparel... Needless to say Vapor works perfect but it's a bit on the expensive side. I have a client that needs 100 T-Shirts for an event and I ordered Gildan 50/50 shirts and also for the first time I am going to try the DyePress Poly TC Coating for White and Light Gray T-Shirts... I will post my results and pictures for all to see and benefit (or not) from.... I tried the Chromablast paper and it works OK but just the trimming and weeding of every sheet is not worth it money wise...


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## zerozerobit

Hi Everyone,

we try the SubliJet HD ink with chromablast paper, printing with Virtuoso SG800. But the print is not sharp, seems the printer put too much ink on paper.

Any advice on the settings we must use to have a crispy image? 

Thank you so much!

here the photo of the print: [media]http://i68.tinypic.com/ehkivc.jpg[/media]


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## eccustoms

360 Deg C?? That's 680 Deg F!! Do you mean 360 Deg F?


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