# Epson water test with pigment and dye inks



## badalou (Mar 19, 2006)

As some of you know I was an Epson product demo rep for a period of time. Part of our demo was to place a picture into a glass of water to show how the pigment inks differ from dye inks. As we have countless questions brought up here about that I thought I would duplicate this demo. Now this is not a scientific test so use it at your own discretion. I have 2 printers and they are both epson but in one I placed dye inks and in the other I place pigment inks. I must tell you the pigment inks come from Coastal and not from Epson. The fact is it is a pigment ink.
The first and second picture shows the prints I did with 4 colors. Then I place the prints into a clear glass of water for about one minute. Then i removed the prints and set them out for you to see the difference. i believe the pictures speak for them selves. Notice the glass of kool Aid. The other glass is a lot clearer and that of course is the pigment ink. I hope this helps explain the differences. Lou


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## ms411 (Sep 9, 2005)

*Re: Epson water test with pigment and dy inks*

Would you mind revealing your source for the dye ink??? Thanks.


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## badalou (Mar 19, 2006)

*Re: Epson water test with pigment and dy inks*

No big deal I bought it at Office max. It is their brand. I have also used inkquick and I was told that it was pigment. I always felt some did not know what they were talking about as you can see from this test. I had the same results from their ink as well. Lou By the way I made a spelling error in the subject I said dy instead of Dye.. sorry about that.


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## natashatee (Jan 9, 2007)

*Re: Epson water test with pigment and dy inks*

Fantastic! very useful..... thanks very much for your time and effort. it is much appreciated.


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## Nester (Jan 7, 2007)

*Re: Epson water test with pigment and dy inks*

Wow, if I didn't know better I'd say you were MAGIC! Thanks! Slowly but surely I am getting the hang of this.

That was VERY helpful. Thanks again Lou!

Lisa


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## prometheus (Oct 19, 2006)

*Re: Epson water test with pigment and dy inks*

It looks as if the Pigment Inks are brighter as well.


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## Solmu (Aug 15, 2005)

badalou said:


> By the way I made a spelling error in the subject I said dy instead of Dye.. sorry about that.


Looks fine to me... maybe you're just going crazy.


(okay okay... I fixed it )


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## cewinn (Jan 12, 2007)

I see where it looks like the pigment inks run a tad bit also even though they are brighter than the dy inks. Now the Epson C88 I'm confused are they pigment or dy inks? Everyone is telling me to switch to the C88 that the inks don't run at all with them like they do with the HP inks.
Cynthia


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## Rodney (Nov 3, 2004)

> Now the Epson C88 I'm confused are they pigment or dy inks? Everyone is telling me to switch to the C88 that the inks don't run at all with them like they do with the HP inks.


The epson c88 (or c88+) comes with pigment inks (durabrite from epson). You can also buy third party pigment inks to go in the printer.


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## prometheus (Oct 19, 2006)

So do some Epsons come with dye based inks then?


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## badalou (Mar 19, 2006)

> I see where it looks like the pigment inks run a tad bit


That was because I used just regular paper. On photo paper that would not have happened. And like I said the pigment ink comes from Coastal and not Epson.


> So do some Epsons come with dye based inks then?


Epson makes printer for Pro photographers and they like the dye inks for picture quality. The durabrite inks tend to dry darker on paper. The Epson durabrite printers are designed for general photo people who will take pictures and put in the photo album


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## kemoi_kyarah (Mar 6, 2008)

Banolou if I have a 1280 or 14oo epson printer can I replac the ink with a bulk pigment ink system? HOw compatible is the pigment ink with these printers will it cause the the printers life to be shortened.


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## prometheus (Oct 19, 2006)

kemoi_kyarah said:


> Banolou if I have a 1280 or 14oo epson printer can I replac the ink with a bulk pigment ink system? HOw compatible is the pigment ink with these printers will it cause the the printers life to be shortened.


Yes you can through a CIS (Continual Ink System). There are quite a few places that sell them with pigment ink. Not sure about the lifespan though.


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## Girlzndollz (Oct 3, 2007)

It's a good idea - when starting to look for CIS or bulk ink systems - to do a search for your printer model and find out what bulk systems and inks other folks are running in the same printer trouble free.

Also, I've seen some more experienced folks here suggest that one should buy the bulk system and ink from the same supplier to avoid possible compatability issues that can arise there, though they have been successfully bought seperately.

Pigment ink is compatible with those printers, and every printing heat transfer papers usually switch to some kind of pigment ink for printing for bet results, unless they go dye-sub.

Here's a thread regarding 1280 and magic mix:http://www.t-shirtforums.com/heat-press-heat-transfers/t1079-3.html#post34846

Read that and you will learn alot. Best wishes.


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## josephfrancis (Apr 18, 2008)

Hello do you need a color profile of you use Pigment Inks?

Cheers

Joe


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## StayStrong (May 13, 2008)

i jus learned somethin new pgiment ink is the way to go so jus to be clear pigment inks dont come with the epson 1400


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## CUSTOM UK (Jun 28, 2008)

*Interestingly enough, I have recently been experimenting with transfer papers for dark fabrics. The inks were flaking off big style, which I put down to me using dye based inks, in my Canon printer.*

*Last week I purchased some unbranded paper from an EBay powerseller, just to prove conclusively that the dye based ink was the problem, before I looked at buying pigment ink. *

*After several trips through a punishing hot wash cycle, there has been no flaking, or fading. It would suggest that chemical reaction between ink and substrate can have a significant impact, which doesn't necessarily negate the use of dye based inks.  *


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## sid (Oct 6, 2007)

Where can you get bulk pigment ink for an Epson 2200? Toner and World has a CIS for it but it appears to be dye not pigment.


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## Girlzndollz (Oct 3, 2007)

Will, dye ink won't cause the flaking, that is the paper itself. Dye ink will just wash out faster if the paper can't handle dye ink, like JPSS. JPSS handles most dye inks well, whereas dye ink will wash out of Ironall for lights. 

Sid, there are alot of threads on cis and refill carts on the forum. If I was you, I would do a search on your model printer and bulk ink or cis. Like this "2200 bulk ink" or "2200 cis". Another search could be "2200 ink supplier". Good luck to you, and if the site you find isn't clear, call them to verify what type of ink it is.


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## CUSTOM UK (Jun 28, 2008)

*Thanks for your input on the dye inks Kelly.  *

*It's really hard to tell when you still have what 'appears' to be the paper still attached to the shirt and tiny flecks of what 'appears' to be ink in your hand.*

*Surprisingly, the dye ink hasn't faded at all, despite my best attempts to make it do so. **You know I have this thing about 'destruction testing' with vicious wash cycles... LOL  *


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## Girlzndollz (Oct 3, 2007)

Maybe I misunderstood what was on your hand... . 

I'm also one for tough, tough wash tests. If it can handle that, we have a winner! That's why I tossed bleach onto the dye shirt with JPSS, it wasn't fading with regular wash tests, so I raised the bar in the name of testing. I also started bleaching the pigment shirt for kicks as well, and the pigment shirt isn't fading either. I chalk that up to the JPSS paper, as my shirts are different mfg, and the ink is different. I am really interested in the paper you are using bc it's for darks, right?


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## CUSTOM UK (Jun 28, 2008)

*Think we're both destined to go to tee shirt hell, for what we do to those poor shirts and transfers.  *


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## leisure (Mar 3, 2007)

Has anyone tried the compatible inks for the durabrite and if so how did they work.There much much cheaper.Thanks


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## CUSTOM UK (Jun 28, 2008)

*Hi. I ONLY ever use compatible inks. Original inks are way too expensive to use commercially. *

*My Epson printer gives outstanding results with compatible inks. You do need to ensure you stick with the same brand of compatible inks though, so you get consistent quality.*

*Using compatibles can invalidate your printer warranty, but no more so than fitting the bulk ink systems that so many of us use nowadays.*

*Hope this helps.*


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## leisure (Mar 3, 2007)

DREAMGLASS said:


> *Hi. I ONLY ever use compatible inks. Original inks are way too expensive to use commercially. *
> 
> *My Epson printer gives outstanding results with compatible inks. You do need to ensure you stick with the same brand of compatible inks though, so you get consistent quality.*
> 
> ...


Do you mind saying where you purchase your from


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## CUSTOM UK (Jun 28, 2008)

*Hi. I buy mine in the UK, where I am based.*

*I don't know if they are available brands stateside, but I use Inktec and Xprint.*

*Compatibles have really improved over the last few years, to the point where both Epson and Hewlett Packard have taken manufacturers to court, claiming the formulation is virtually identical to their own. I really don't know if you can get a better recommendation that that?  *


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## badalou (Mar 19, 2006)

DREAMGLASS said:


> *Hi. I buy mine in the UK, where I am based.*
> 
> *I don't know if they are available brands stateside, but I use Inktec and Xprint.*
> 
> *Compatibles have really improved over the last few years, to the point where both Epson and Hewlett Packard have taken manufacturers to court, claiming the formulation is virtually identical to their own. I really don't know if you can get a better recommendation that that?  *


The word compatible refers mostly to the cartridge not the ink. meaning the cartridges fit the printer but you in fact may be getting dye ink. At one time, before Epson law suit, Several office stores here in USA were selling their own compatible inks for the Epson. I challenged the store on the inks and asked if was dye or pigment. he did no know but called me the next day and told me they were dye. Since the Epson law suit the office stores have dropped the selling of these cartridges. Lou


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## CUSTOM UK (Jun 28, 2008)

*Hi. The only truly certain way to ensure what ink is going into your printer, is to either buy refillable cartridges, or invest in a bulk feed system.*

*Like Lou, I had the same problem with most suppliers unable to answer the question, as to whether it was pigment or dye based ink inside the cartridge.*

*I once read somewhere , that the ink in original cartridges, worked out fifteen times more expensive, than the best Bolinger champagne.  *


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## tdeals (Dec 13, 2006)

Will:

Do you have pics to show your dye-based ink outcome and which Canon printer model are you using?


(The additional questions I had about Canon printers I will start in a new thread, as this one was about Epsons.)


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## CUSTOM UK (Jun 28, 2008)

*Hi. You'll find picture of the results, under another one of my postings entitled Are there transfers for dark materials that wash well?*

*The Canon printer is just a spare I use alongside my Epson printers. It is a small Pixma iP3000 model. I use compatible cartridges with dye based ink, that is a close formulation to the original Canon inks.*

*Hope this helps.*


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## spankthafunk (Apr 9, 2007)

great post


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## Traceyt (Aug 15, 2008)

Girlzndollz said:


> Maybe I misunderstood what was on your hand... .
> 
> I'm also one for tough, tough wash tests. If it can handle that, we have a winner! That's why I tossed bleach onto the dye shirt with JPSS, it wasn't fading with regular wash tests, so I raised the bar in the name of testing. I also started bleaching the pigment shirt for kicks as well, and the pigment shirt isn't fading either. I chalk that up to the JPSS paper, as my shirts are different mfg, and the ink is different. I am really interested in the paper you are using bc it's for darks, right?


Hi Kelly,
I have another question to clarify. I want to sell shirts that wash well. I am looking at investing in a Epson 1800 printer. It comes with Pigment based inks in it's regular cartridges. That is what you have found to wash well, with JetProsoftstretch Paper? Basically with this paper I will not have to buy a chromoblast system for the Epson 1800
is that correct? I am getting confused from all these posts. 

Thank you
Tracey


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## FAT DADDY (Sep 4, 2008)

hi where can i get compatiable in for epson 1400 
and what brand would give me the best results for graphics life
thanks


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## moffett8 (Jun 26, 2008)

Epson C88, R1800 and R1900 and some of the other epson printers us pigment ink. The Epson 1400 uses dye based in. I have a DTG printer I made and I can print with epson inks that are pigment and the colors don't run or fade. I've a attached a picture...not the best because I tool it with my cell phone

Philip



cewinn said:


> I see where it looks like the pigment inks run a tad bit also even though they are brighter than the dy inks. Now the Epson C88 I'm confused are they pigment or dy inks? Everyone is telling me to switch to the C88 that the inks don't run at all with them like they do with the HP inks.
> Cynthia


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## Lnfortun (Feb 18, 2006)

FAT DADDY said:


> hi where can i get compatiable in for epson 1400
> and what brand would give me the best results for graphics life
> thanks


InkJetCarts Home Page
Ink Cartridges ~ Inkjet Refill Kits ~ Fine Art Paper ~ Pigment Inkjet Ink ~ Laser Toner ~ Bulk Feed Systems ~ CFS ~ CIS ~ Accessories : Inksupply.com
Inkjetfly.com - Best Selling CIS for Professional Photographers

Inkjetcarts.us sells pigment ink for heat transfer. I use it in CX5000 with great result. The company also sells pigment ink for 1400. I have not tried it in my 1400 since the ink set I have is only 4 colors.


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## Girlzndollz (Oct 3, 2007)

Traceyt said:


> Hi Kelly,
> I have another question to clarify. I want to sell shirts that wash well. I am looking at investing in a Epson 1800 printer. It comes with Pigment based inks in it's regular cartridges. That is what you have found to wash well, with JetProsoftstretch Paper? Basically with this paper I will not have to buy a chromoblast system for the Epson 1800
> is that correct? I am getting confused from all these posts.
> 
> ...


Sorry for the delay, Tracey... bad week left me backlogged on older threads... 

Yes, pigment inks wash well with JPSS/Jetprosofstretch, and you would not have to change inks with the r1800. 

For only JPSS paper, I also had excellent wash results with regular Canon dye ink, so, JPSS paper has different properties than other inkjet heat transfer papers for lights. Other papers will wash out with dye, but JPSS does not.

If you use the r1800 and pigment ink, you should not have any troubles with any of the papers for dark and light shirts. 

Always do a wash test on the combination of shirt, paper and ink that you choose - to make sure they give the results you want. 

I have found each one (shirt, paper, ink) can make a difference in the end result. 

Best wishes and good luck to you.


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## Girlzndollz (Oct 3, 2007)

moffett8 said:


> The Epson 1400 uses dye based in.


The 1400 uses Claria ink, and it is not touted as a regular photographic dye ink, it called by Epson a Hi-Definition "water resistant" dye, and that seems to make it different from regular photographic dyes that run/bleed in water. 

Some folks are using a variety of papers with Claria and Claria compatable inks with success. It's a new thing, and a wash test is warranted, but it is working for some members here, whereas regular photographic dye inks are failing. 

Just thought I'd mention it since you said it's a dye, and I just post dye bleeds/fades/runs. There is a difference with Claria.



> I have a DTG printer I made


Wow, I haven't seen many folks posts that! Did you build it from the thread here "I made my own DTG..." or did you build it on your own? How is it working??? Thanks! 



> and I can print with epson inks that are pigment and the colors don't run or fade.
> 
> Philip


Yes, the pigments don't run, they have a very high degree of success with this process. The shirt on the left looks great, is that on the DTG board?


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## Traceyt (Aug 15, 2008)

Girlzndollz said:


> Sorry for the delay, Tracey... bad week left me backlogged on older threads...
> 
> Yes, pigment inks wash well with JPSS/Jetprosofstretch, and you would not have to change inks with the r1800.
> 
> ...


Thank you very much. I really appreciate it. All this info. can cause migraines in Newbies. I will get one of these printers.


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## Girlzndollz (Oct 3, 2007)

Traceyt said:


> Thank you very much. I really appreciate it. All this info. can cause migraines in Newbies. I will get one of these printers.


 
... you're welcome, Tracey. I remember the feeling. Sometimes I felt like a puppy chasing my own tail... as I thought I had it straight, something would come along and rock the boat and I'd have to get back and recheck what I "thought" I already "learned." 

Luckily there was another new girl learning at the same time I was, and we used to compare our newbie notes and come back out with more questions, lol... 

Good luck to you, Tracey... once you are rolling along, it is amazing how easy the whole thing really is, just those first few weeks are hard. I think picking your products is probably one of the more confusing things. If you need any help, just post in a thread, we'll be here for you.


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## COEDS (Oct 4, 2006)

I just want to say you newbie girls, sure taught the rest of us a bunch !!!!! .... JB


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## Girlzndollz (Oct 3, 2007)

COEDS said:


> I just want to say you newbie girls, sure taught the rest of us a bunch !!!!! .... JB


 
Cutter time is coming soon, JB... I'll be a "newbie girl" all over again! I haven't forgotten what Tracey is going thru, so I kind of dread starting a new process all over again. But I have to say, knowing you guys now, and knowing who is here to help -- certainly makes me feel a whole lot more confident heading into the vinyl world... thanks for that!


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## leisure (Mar 3, 2007)

Lnfortun said:


> InkJetCarts Home Page
> Ink Cartridges ~ Inkjet Refill Kits ~ Fine Art Paper ~ Pigment Inkjet Ink ~ Laser Toner ~ Bulk Feed Systems ~ CFS ~ CIS ~ Accessories : Inksupply.com
> Inkjetfly.com - Best Selling CIS for Professional Photographers
> 
> Inkjetcarts.us sells pigment ink for heat transfer. I use it in CX5000 with great result. The company also sells pigment ink for 1400. I have not tried it in my 1400 since the ink set I have is only 4 colors.


I've been thinking about the refillable for my cx5000 so I went to Inkjetcarts could you explain these two things for me please
1-This Kit includes a aingle refillable chip/cart set that enables automatic chip resetting
(not sure what that means)
2-UFO Damper or just Damper
(not sure what that means either)
thank you for any help


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## Lnfortun (Feb 18, 2006)

Hi leisure,

The UFO refillable cartridge is a brand new product that inkjetcarts.us sells. I am not sure what the single chip means because CX5000 does not have a ganged refillable cartridge unlike the one used in C120. I don't think UFO is made for CX5000. You need to call Ross about the UFO cartridge.

Here is the link for CX5000 Heat transfer kit:

Fabric PrintersKit T0691-T0694 Epson CX5000 Refillable

That is the cheaper version of the heat transfer kit. The kit I bought included 3 sets of refillable cartridges, 32 ozs. of CMYK inks, 16 ozs. of cleaning solution and two sets of four syringes. You have to call n for the model of your printer. So that it matches with your printer. Inkjetcarts.us put one together for my CX5000.

Here is the link:

Ultima Fabric Printers Kit T0601-T0604 for Epson C CX 32oz Heat Transfer Pigments Refillable

The kit in the link shows cartridges for another model but inkjetcarts.us will put one together for for your printer.


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## Fooliard (Oct 18, 2011)

Question, can pigment ink be used for sublimation? And can I get refill inks for an epson c86 printer from office max? 
Many thanks!


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