# Recommendations on a good cheap printer



## xnaku0 (Oct 15, 2016)

I would like to get into Sublimation I need a little help deciding on which printer to get I was leaning towards Ricoh But I'm not sure if I have to use sawgrass ink What seems to be really expensive I was wondering if I could use a refillable cartridge and cheaper ink Hoping to spend around $300 for the printer Any advice would be great thanks in advance


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## Dekzion (May 18, 2015)

Check the forums for problems with Epson, then check the forums for problems with Ricoh.
Check how many Epsons there are that might work with sub ink and work out which one you feel safe with, With Ricoh it's a case of do you want A3 or A4 size print.
When you buy any desktop printer it has those scabby small carts in that run out the same day, and you are then trapped in a cycle of buying CISS etc. and trying to find decent ink and profiles and paper that the ink doesn't slide off of or fade within the month.
Ricohs are built for sublimation. they do the job properly, no-one can dispute that. The starter carts have to lose 25% to fill the lines initially but that is a one time deal and doesn't effect further carts. You will be able to put through at least 500 sheets A4 and at least 300 Mug wraps for a set of carts. Just adding £1 per A4 as the cost of printing to your job will return at least 300% profit on using the best inks that have been designed for sublimation, in a printer that is just about bullet proof.
Or you could try something else.


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## PatWibble (Mar 7, 2014)

Many of the smaller Epsons use the same print head technology as the wider format inkjet printers (42"+), and there is plenty of ink formulated for them.

The Epson 1430 uses DX5 MicroPiezo printheads, that is compatible with various Inktec Sublinova inks. The most easily available ( in the UK at least ) is the Inktec Sublinova Smart at £60 per litre (Sawgrass is £1300 litre, when bought by the cartridge).
There are also cheaper inks available.

You will need to get a custom ICC profile made, although your ink supplier could have something generic for you to use.

With the Epson you will need to do some experimenting until you get comfortable with the colour reproduction. On the other hand, the Sawgrass printers have the 'power driver' that (anecdotally) gets the colour right first time, onto a variety of substrates.

A lot will depend on what you anticipate your customer base to be. If you envisage mainly fast turn around 'one off' sales - picture of the family dog on a mug or single shirt orders - then the Sawgrass solution should get it right first time, with out the need for a test print.

If you are hoping for slightly larger production runs then it is viable to do a test print to get the colours precise. You can get 50 - 60 test logos onto one sublimation t-shirt, so the cost isn't going to kill you.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

xnaku0 said:


> I would like to get into Sublimation I need a little help deciding on which printer to get I was leaning towards Ricoh But I'm not sure if I have to use sawgrass ink What seems to be really expensive I was wondering if I could use a refillable cartridge and cheaper ink Hoping to spend around $300 for the printer Any advice would be great thanks in advance


Non-sawgrass sublimaton Inks and refillable carts are available for Ricoh.

See this post

http://www.t-shirtforums.com/dye-sublimation/t694658.html#post3716146


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

Dekzion said:


> Check the forums for problems with Epson, then check the forums for problems with Ricoh.
> Check how many Epsons there are that might work with sub ink and work out which one you feel safe with, With Ricoh it's a case of do you want A3 or A4 size print.
> When you buy any desktop printer it has those scabby small carts in that run out the same day, and you are then trapped in a cycle of buying CISS etc. and trying to find decent ink and profiles and paper *that the ink doesn't slide off of or fade within the month*.
> Ricohs are built for sublimation. they do the job properly, no-one can dispute that. The starter carts have to lose 25% to fill the lines initially but that is a one time deal and doesn't effect further carts. You will be able to put through at least 500 sheets A4 and at least 300 Mug wraps for a set of carts. Just adding £1 per A4 as the cost of printing to your job will return at least 300% profit on using the best inks that have been designed for sublimation, in a printer that is just about bullet proof.
> Or you could try something else.


You don't know your Epson printers nor do you know the products available in the US.

All Epson desktop work with sub inks.

_Desktop_ Epson 125 mL carts no CIS Maybe 4x the capacity of Ricoh carts. _And we now have refillable tank printers factory from Epson._

https://www.cobraink.com/store/#!/C...lled-Sublimation/p/71993398/category=20940123

Epson Surecolor printers (13 x 19) have very large carts. The P800 can go 17 wide is cheaper than the tabloid size Ricoh and you can get 80 mL carts, no CIS. 

Ricohs were not built for sublimation. They are pigment printers just like Epson. Sawgrass retrofit those printers.

I have printed reliably from Epson's since the beginning of inkjet sublimation. 

Ricoh's have that firmware feature which prints a trickle amount of inks at timed intervals. A nice feature but you can accomplish with Epson using a free or cheap utility. Or just print every few days or just do a nozzle check ever day or so. Ricoh makes this feature convenient is the difference.

The smaller Ricoh is far less risk, but the larger Ricoh at about $1500 you are getting close to the cost of a much larger professional Epson.

I can buy 7 Epsons for under $1500 with the same warranty and 13 x 19 out of the box. And with that my ink costs are 1/5 of what SG inks are.

That larger Ricoh math doesn't work, nor does the ink math either unless all you do is low volume small items like Unisub and mugs. Paying £1 per A4 you are getting hammered. 

The smaller Ricoh is too small for tshirts.

And yes we have decent inks and profiles, don't have to look very hard here in the US.  No inks "sliding off" or fading within the month. Seriously where do you hear this stuff?


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

PatWibble said:


> Many of the smaller Epsons use the same print head technology as the wider format inkjet printers (42"+), and there is plenty of ink formulated for them.
> 
> The Epson 1430 uses DX5 MicroPiezo printheads, that is compatible with various Inktec Sublinova inks. The most easily available ( in the UK at least ) is the Inktec Sublinova Smart at £60 per litre (Sawgrass is £1300 litre, when bought by the cartridge).
> There are also cheaper inks available.
> ...


The OP didn't mention where he is located but in the US we have sublimation ICC profiles for Epson desktop printers. It isn't necessary for anything custom to be made, although that option is available as well.

Once you are set up you can get it right the first time without a test print.

I'm not aware of the Inktec inks being marketed here (at least not for desktop).

Also to note ... Sawgrass has abandoned the Epson desktop market, the only current model being supported is the 1430.


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## jfisk3475 (Jan 28, 2011)

xnaku0 said:


> I would like to get into Sublimation I need a little help deciding on which printer to get I was leaning towards Ricoh But I'm not sure if I have to use sawgrass ink What seems to be really expensive I was wondering if I could use a refillable cartridge and cheaper ink Hoping to spend around $300 for the printer Any advice would be great thanks in advance


We bought the wf7610 and converted ourselves with cobra ink. Took about 20 minutes. Under 225.00. 

Sent from my LG-H901 using T-Shirt Forums


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

jfisk3475 said:


> We bought the wf7610 and converted ourselves with cobra ink. Took about 20 minutes. Under 225.00.
> 
> Sent from my LG-H901 using T-Shirt Forums


What mugs are you using? Nice top to bottom coverage you are getting, and wraps or press?


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## jfisk3475 (Jan 28, 2011)

These are heat press with conde mug11. We use a couple tricks to get that coverage. 

Sent from my LG-H901 using T-Shirt Forums


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## jimc (Jan 31, 2007)

Dekzion said:


> Check the forums for problems with Epson, then check the forums for problems with Ricoh.
> Check how many Epsons there are that might work with sub ink and work out which one you feel safe with, With Ricoh it's a case of do you want A3 or A4 size print.
> When you buy any desktop printer it has those scabby small carts in that run out the same day, and you are then trapped in a cycle of buying CISS etc. and trying to find decent ink and profiles and paper that the ink doesn't slide off of or fade within the month.
> Ricohs are built for sublimation. they do the job properly, no-one can dispute that. The starter carts have to lose 25% to fill the lines initially but that is a one time deal and doesn't effect further carts. You will be able to put through at least 500 sheets A4 and at least 300 Mug wraps for a set of carts. Just adding £1 per A4 as the cost of printing to your job will return at least 300% profit on using the best inks that have been designed for sublimation, in a printer that is just about bullet proof.
> Or you could try something else.


"Ricohs built for sublimation?????
As for £1 for A4 sublimated ..WHY? Using Sublinova in Epson 1500/1430 the ink cost is pennies and superior print
I've used both Ricoh and Epson in the past but abandoned the Ricoh after first carts as it couldn't match the quality of Epson.


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## Dekzion (May 18, 2015)

and if you'd read it properly I wrote adding £1 as the cost of printing to your job i.e. the cost to the customer. Nice mugs there Jfisk.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

jfisk3475 said:


> These are heat press with conde mug11. We use a couple tricks to get that coverage.
> 
> Sent from my LG-H901 using T-Shirt Forums


I'm using Cactus but these mugs are a bit curved at the bottom to get "full bleed".

I'll try those on my next mug purchase. I have both wraps and mug presses.

I'm impressed you can get full bleed using a press and not a wrap.


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## jimc (Jan 31, 2007)

Dekzion said:


> and if you'd read it properly I wrote adding £1 as the cost of printing to your job i.e. the cost to the customer. Nice mugs there Jfisk.


 And if you added £1 as the cost of printing using Epson and Sublinova think of the extra profit you would make.

Work it out. Sublinova = approx. 8p per mil
Ricoh per mil.?


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## jfisk3475 (Jan 28, 2011)

mgparrish said:


> I'm using Cactus but these mugs are a bit curved at the bottom to get "full bleed".
> 
> I'll try those on my next mug purchase. I have both wraps and mug presses.
> 
> I'm impressed you can get full bleed using a press and not a wrap.


Sent you a pm on how we do it. Only because you helped us on a tip or two.

Sent from my LG-H901 using T-Shirt Forums


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## xnaku0 (Oct 15, 2016)

Thank you for the replys this is a great community


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## PatWibble (Mar 7, 2014)

mgparrish said:


> The OP didn't mention where he is located but in the US we have sublimation ICC profiles for Epson desktop printers. It isn't necessary for anything custom to be made, although that option is available as well.
> 
> Once you are set up you can get it right the first time without a test print.
> 
> ...


Inktec list an American division on their website, so I assumed that they were available there. The Sublinova Ink isn't marketed for desktop here either, only for wide format printers (which is the point I made at the start of my post), hence the need for a custom profile. Most ink suppliers will provide a profile for more popular Epsons, but at only about £20 for a custom profile you would have to assume that it is worth getting one for for your own printer/paper combination.

I don't often print single prints, or items other than garments, so I would always do a test print before first production, in the same way I would for screen printed items. I'm sure that it is not necessary, we all have our own ways.

The price quoted for Sawgrass ink was for their own brand printers, to illustrate the difference between the ink costs of Epsons over Sawgrass. Sorry if you assumed I was implying that they offered ink for an extended range of Epsons.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

PatWibble said:


> Inktec list an American division on their website, so I assumed that they were available there. The Sublinova Ink isn't marketed for desktop here either, only for wide format printers (which is the point I made at the start of my post), hence the need for a custom profile. Most ink suppliers will provide a profile for more popular Epsons, but at only about £20 for a custom profile you would have to assume that it is worth getting one for for your own printer/paper combination.
> 
> I don't often print single prints, or items other than garments, so I would always do a test print before first production, in the same way I would for screen printed items. I'm sure that it is not necessary, we all have our own ways.
> 
> The price quoted for Sawgrass ink was for their own brand printers, to illustrate the difference between the ink costs of Epsons over Sawgrass. Sorry if you assumed I was implying that they offered ink for an extended range of Epsons.


Your mention of Inktec sparked my interest. I saw they had a US division but the link is dead, so was maybe a sales office or a rep.

Anyway, I do see a few on US Ebay selling both 100mL bottles and liters.

It appears that the Sublinova "Smart" is the specific ink that would cover most or all of the the desktop printers.


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## PatWibble (Mar 7, 2014)

mgparrish said:


> It appears that the Sublinova "Smart" is the specific ink that would cover most or all of the the desktop printers.


It's about the only 'branded' sublimation ink that is easy to get hold of in the UK, for the desktop user, if you don't deal with a wide format supplier. That's why it is 'officially' only sold by the litre, although you can get 100ml 'samples' from most suppliers.

There is plenty of ownbrand/unbranded Chinese stuff flying around, but you never really know what you are getting, and Sublinova 'Smart' is cheap enough.

The problem in the UK/EU is that the sublimation ink market only opened up about 18 months ago. Maybe the patents lasted longer here? Most of the main suppliers still push Sawgrass pretty hard - at £39 for 29ml Virtuoso ink you can see why!


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## jimc (Jan 31, 2007)

PatWibble said:


> It's about the only 'branded' sublimation ink that is easy to get hold of in the UK, for the desktop user, if you don't deal with a wide format supplier. That's why it is 'officially' only sold by the litre, although you can get 100ml 'samples' from most suppliers.
> 
> There is plenty of ownbrand/unbranded Chinese stuff flying around, but you never really know what you are getting, and Sublinova 'Smart' is cheap enough.
> 
> The problem in the UK/EU is that the sublimation ink market only opened up about 18 months ago. Maybe the patents lasted longer here? Most of the main suppliers still push Sawgrass pretty hard - at £39 for 29ml Virtuoso ink you can see why!


Apart from the fact that there's more profit for the suppliers selling the Sawgrass ink, from what I've heard they are tied into long term contracts to sell only Sawgrass inks. I've noticed that the ones selling Sublinova now didn't sell Sawgrass previously.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

PatWibble said:


> It's about the only 'branded' sublimation ink that is easy to get hold of in the UK, for the desktop user, if you don't deal with a wide format supplier. That's why it is 'officially' only sold by the litre, although you can get 100ml 'samples' from most suppliers.
> 
> There is plenty of ownbrand/unbranded Chinese stuff flying around, but you never really know what you are getting, and Sublinova 'Smart' is cheap enough.
> 
> The problem in the UK/EU is that the sublimation ink market only opened up about 18 months ago. Maybe the patents lasted longer here? Most of the main suppliers still push Sawgrass pretty hard - at £39 for 29ml Virtuoso ink you can see why!


The Sawgrass patent expired here on September 2014


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## PatWibble (Mar 7, 2014)

mgparrish said:


> The Sawgrass patent expired here on September 2014


I think that was when it expired here. It was only last summer that ink suppliers have been advertising non SG sub inks on their websites. There was some debate on if SG's other patents were dependent on the one the expired.

Sublinova has been available on ebay as 100ml 'samples' for 42"+ printers for several years, and so has chinese ink.
I know of only one supplier that sells Sawgrass and non Sawgrass ink alongside each other, so maybe Jim is right about the long term contracts.

To (sort of) keep the thread on topic and in reply to the OP's original question, we have all got to be thankful for Epson's printheads!


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## Dekzion (May 18, 2015)

mgparrish said:


> I'm using Cactus but these mugs are a bit curved at the bottom to get "full bleed".
> 
> I'll try those on my next mug purchase. I have both wraps and mug presses.
> 
> I'm impressed you can get full bleed using a press and not a wrap.


You can do that on Europeans too, easy enough.


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## 34Ford (Mar 19, 2010)

mgparrish said:


> All Epson desktop work with sub inks



All? Could you give a few Epson models you prefer.

What is these Virtuoso printers I see so many dealers pushing?


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

34Ford said:


> All? Could you give a few Epson models you prefer.
> 
> What is these Virtuoso printers I see so many dealers pushing?


You want to find a model that your sublimation vendor supports with ICC profiles. Then you decide if you want 4 colors, 6, 8 etc, and if you want any scanner or other features.

I'm using a WF7110 and Cobra inks.

Virtuoso printers are re-branded Ricoh printers that Sawgrass markets.


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## jfisk3475 (Jan 28, 2011)

34Ford said:


> All? Could you give a few Epson models you prefer.
> 
> What is these Virtuoso printers I see so many dealers pushing?


We have WF7010 and now WF7610 from Cobra. Love the WF7610. Wireless and dead on color. Scanner is a plus. 

Sent from my LG-H901 using T-Shirt Forums


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## Desweaver (Nov 15, 2015)

Good input, looking to branch out into sublimation eventually.


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## sinGN (Oct 12, 2016)

Hi,
Epson is the best printer for sublimation.


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## sinGN (Oct 12, 2016)

Hi, 
so many of here preffer Epson for sublimation and am also using Epson printer.


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## 34Ford (Mar 19, 2010)

Oh lord, I already have 3 Epsons here. WF645, 1400 and a R3000.

So after what you guys are saying Im leaning towards a wf-7610. What about a used one? Can the pigment ink be flushed out satisfactory?


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

34Ford said:


> Oh lord, I already have 3 Epsons here. WF645, 1400 and a R3000.
> 
> So after what you guys are saying Im leaning towards a wf-7610. What about a used one? Can the pigment ink be flushed out satisfactory?


The small mount of pigment inks that are still residing in the print head would be completely displaced out once new carts are installed and detected by the printers firmware.

Once the new carts are recognized the printer will do ink charging and also do a automatic head clean. Once that happens old ink is purged out completely. There are no ink lines in that model, the carts sit directly over the print heads.


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## 34Ford (Mar 19, 2010)

Thanks Mike.

Well I just found that Epson has the 7610 refurbs for $120 shipped with a 1 year warranty. Seems the way to go.


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## Shinjinami (Oct 23, 2016)

Hi all. I'm also new to this and banging my brain with choosing a printer. I have a HP Pro200 but I know that won't work so have been looking at Epson. Anyone know the Epson L1300 printer? It's A3 with ink tank system. Any comments on the L range for sublimation? Also probably a stupid question, but can you still print everyday documents when using sublimation or should you rather have another printer for that? Thanks. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## PatWibble (Mar 7, 2014)

Not as good a printer as the price would suggest You are paying a lot for the ink tanks.
I was looking at one of the new Epsons with the ink tank in a store in the Uk. It was nearly £300 - right next to it was a virtually identical conventional printer for £80. I lifted the lid of both and the inside was the same on each.
Maybe in a year or two the price will even out, but now those printers are too much.

In the UK an A3+ Epson 1500w(1430 artisan) is less than £200. The A3 with tanks is £600 (list) for 4 colour printing.


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## JSISIGNSCOM (Apr 19, 2012)

what process did you have to do to covert your wf7610 to sublimation inks?


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

PatWibble said:


> Not as good a printer as the price would suggest You are paying a lot for the ink tanks.
> I was looking at one of the new Epsons with the ink tank in a store in the Uk. It was nearly £300 - right next to it was a virtually identical conventional printer for £80. I lifted the lid of both and the inside was the same on each.
> Maybe in a year or two the price will even out, but now those printers are too much.
> 
> In the UK an A3+ Epson 1500w(1430 artisan) is less than £200. The A3 with tanks is £600 (list) for 4 colour printing.


To your point, those tank printers they are padding in the lost ink revenue into the price of the printer upfront.

Epson was basically giving away printers before and gouging us on the inks, so we get cheaper inks now but more expensive printers. The "eco tank" printers in the US the same thing, the design comes from an existing cartridge type printer except for the tank modification.

It is still cheaper to add your own CIS on a traditional printer.


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