# Versacamm Owners? Should I sell My DTG?



## Kwelp68 (Oct 25, 2007)

Sorry to keep starting threads, but I'm really confused on what I should do. I have a DTG Kiosk 2 with White ink and the Wims system. On light colored shirts, the thing is simply amazing. Even though I never have white ink issues (clogs and problems getting a thick underbase), I'm not very happy with the finished result. Laundering is not that great. Also, the pretreatment process sucks. I'm not in a position to own both a Versacamm and a DTG, so should I sell my Dtg and buy just a Versacamm. I run about 100 to 200 shirts a day, and I don't know the speed, quality, and cost of the Versacamm for this. Somebody who uses their versacamm consistantly for shirts, please speak up and sell me on it. Do shirts end up looking cheap because of the vinyl feel? What do your customers think? What is a real cost for small 5" by 3" simple color text prints? Are the prints vibrant? I really need some help deciding on this, so please fill me in??


----------



## Cutting_Edge (Jun 30, 2006)

You really should give ScubaSteve a yell......he has great info on the VersaCamm.....

I would suggest you get a print from a VersaCamm, so you can feel the 'hand' of the print on the shirt.....

I, too, have a DTG (no white ink here).....and invested in the VersaCamm a couple months ago......one thing I have found w/ the VersaCamm on printing for shirts (I use the printable shirt vinyl from Imprintables) that small lettering is pretty tricky to cut around w/ the VersaCamm w/o having problems...the shirt vinyl is pretty thin, so I sometimes have problems w/ the lettering.....and also, watch the type of fonts you use on the shirt vinyl....a simple block type font is fine, but something pretty skinny or fine, you can have problems w/.

Hope this helps you some.
Margaret
Cutting Edge


----------



## ino (Jan 23, 2007)

200 shirts on an 8 hour shift would give a production time of 2.40 minutes per shirt.
It would be interesting to know if you could print,weed ( if needed) cut and press in the same time.
You might also have to consider the extra costs, vinyl and electrics, plus the fact that some people might not like the plastic feel on the shirt. Just my opinion.


----------



## Kwelp68 (Oct 25, 2007)

hmmm, this is something to think about. Alot of the designs we do are as small as 4" wide by 2" in height, and mostly lettering. I wonder if I can change some of the designs to work around that problem. I've really got to solve the printing on black issue, as it just doesn't cut it in quality. Josh from imprintables is sending me some samples, but now I'm a little worried about how small some of our designs are. I'll hit up Scuba Steve and see what he thinks. My plan is once I get an order to print all the designs and cut them in one run for all the shirts, then weed them. I figure it would balance in time with the DTG because of pretreatment, switching shirts? Thanks alot for this info. This is really a hard decision without running one for awhile. We offer over 300 designs, and currently have quite a few customers. I don't want to invest in the Versacamm, sell the DTG, and end up screwed. Thanks a lot for this info you two. If anyone else has some advice, please please tell me.


----------



## joeshaul (Mar 1, 2008)

Kwelp68 said:


> hmmm, this is something to think about. Alot of the designs we do are as small as 4" wide by 2" in height, and mostly lettering. I wonder if I can change some of the designs to work around that problem. I've really got to solve the printing on black issue, as it just doesn't cut it in quality. Josh from imprintables is sending me some samples, but now I'm a little worried about how small some of our designs are. I'll hit up Scuba Steve and see what he thinks. My plan is once I get an order to print all the designs and cut them in one run for all the shirts, then weed them. I figure it would balance in time with the DTG because of pretreatment, switching shirts? Thanks alot for this info. This is really a hard decision without running one for awhile. We offer over 300 designs, and currently have quite a few customers. I don't want to invest in the Versacamm, sell the DTG, and end up screwed. Thanks a lot for this info you two. If anyone else has some advice, please please tell me.


If you are dealing with one-two color designs, the Eco-Film line from Imprintables and just a regular vinyl cutter may be a better cheaper solution and is easier to weed and transfer. Basically you just cut it mirrored, weed, and press. Weeding is pretty easy as they use a strong mylar tape that holds your lettering on quite well. 

Solutions opaque you have to print, let cure (to prevent edge lifting on small letters/etc), send back through to cut, mask, then transfer. I usually let my solvent prints cure for 12 hours before cutting. Sometimes getting the material to pull away from the backer with mask is a pain on solution's opaque as well. 

I offer DTG on lights/whites with a Brother GT541, for dark colors I utilize both Eco-Film and Solutions Opaque, although I charge quite a bit more for the darker colors because the process is quite longer than DTG. Most of my customers just want onesie twosies.


----------



## Kwelp68 (Oct 25, 2007)

joeshaul said:


> If you are dealing with one-two color designs, the Eco-Film line from Imprintables and just a regular vinyl cutter may be a better cheaper solution and is easier to weed and transfer. Basically you just cut it mirrored, weed, and press. Weeding is pretty easy as they use a strong mylar tape that holds your lettering on quite well.
> 
> Solutions opaque you have to print, let cure (to prevent edge lifting on small letters/etc), send back through to cut, mask, then transfer. I usually let my solvent prints cure for 12 hours before cutting. Sometimes getting the material to pull away from the backer with mask is a pain on solution's opaque as well.
> 
> I offer DTG on lights/whites with a Brother GT541, for dark colors I utilize both Eco-Film and Solutions Opaque, although I charge quite a bit more for the darker colors because the process is quite longer than DTG. Most of my customers just want onesie twosies.


Thank you soo much for getting back to me! I feel like my head is spinning. The reason I was thinking the Versacamm is simply because it eliminates the steps of print, then take to cutter. Because I'm printing quite a few shirts a day, I could print all of them and then cut all, then weed. Does this Eco-Film work on the Versacamm? Why do you say it is good for one to two color instead of more? What exactly is the difference between solutions opaque and Eco-Film? Can they both be printed on?

I think my biggest concern now is that a lot of our designs are small text. Do you think I'll run into issues working vinyl with small text? 

Again thank you soo much. All this info is really helping me.


----------



## Kwelp68 (Oct 25, 2007)

Hey Joe, ultimately, I wish I could do what you're doing (keep the DTG for lights, and use the versacamm for darks) Unfortunately, I only have the funds to have one of these machines. Would you feel confident using just the Versacamm for all your shirt designs on all colors and sizes if you didn't have the Brother?


----------



## joeshaul (Mar 1, 2008)

Kwelp68 said:


> Hey Joe, ultimately, I wish I could do what you're doing (keep the DTG for lights, and use the versacamm for darks) Unfortunately, I only have the funds to have one of these machines. Would you feel confident using just the Versacamm for all your shirt designs on all colors and sizes if you didn't have the Brother?


There is a light version of Solutions Opaque called solution's clear, I'm unsure how different it is. If there was a way to get it to weed and mask easier, I could possibly utilize it for shirts full time. 

Is garment decorating going to be your specific trade? If so, then I'd say go either DTG or learn screen printing (especially if you're doing bulk orders 60+ of a single design). 

However, if you're looking at producing things such as banners, posters, vehicle decals, and signs, then the Versacamm is a very worthwhile investment and will open up a wide variety of opportunities outside of the garment world as well. The way I see it, is the Solutions line opens up the possibility to produce t-shirts for sign shops that probably already have the equipment without having to purchase anything extra other than a heat press. There are some individuals that may use it solely for garments and it may work for some target audiences, but I'd guess the majority of the users are probably sign companies that are expanding the products they make.


----------



## Kwelp68 (Oct 25, 2007)

joeshaul said:


> There is a light version of Solutions Opaque called solution's clear, I'm unsure how different it is. If there was a way to get it to weed and mask easier, I could possibly utilize it for shirts full time.
> 
> Is garment decorating going to be your specific trade? If so, then I'd say go either DTG or learn screen printing (especially if you're doing bulk orders 60+ of a single design).
> 
> However, if you're looking at producing things such as banners, posters, vehicle decals, and signs, then the Versacamm is a very worthwhile investment and will open up a wide variety of opportunities outside of the garment world as well. The way I see it, is the Solutions line opens up the possibility to produce t-shirts for sign shops that probably already have the equipment without having to purchase anything extra other than a heat press. There are some individuals that may use it solely for garments and it may work for some target audiences, but I'd guess the majority of the users are probably sign companies that are expanding the products they make.


I actually sold my screen printing equipment to buy the DTG, lol! I wasn't very good at it though, and the equipment was cheap. I could do one color designs and that was about it. 

Right now, I am solely a shirt printer. We wholesale shirts to different companies and rarely sell retail. I like the idea of using the Versacamm for both shirts and stickers, banners, car wraps, etc. The world outside of shirts is completely new to me though, and I would have to learn how to market the banners and other things. The Versacamm seems much more versatile for this. Right now though, I have to keep my customers happy with the shirts, and I'm afraid to trade machines and then the Versacamm doesn't work for shirts like the DTG. I ultimately have to solve this problem of Dark shirts looking like crap after 3 washes. I never know what I'm going to get in an order, so getting plastisol transfers won't work as minimums are high and it cuts into cost quite a bit. Sometimes I have an order for 2 shirts of one design. I don't see outsourcing to screen printing as a possibility because it would cut way too much into cost because we wholesale. I could try and learn to screen print, but we offer so many designs, burning all the screens just seems like it would cost tons, and take a long time to master. 

I wonder if I can lease the Versacamm for just a month to see if it will do alright. I think the quality will be fine, but I'm still worried about not being able to weed small text designs. I've seen some examples on this forum of people who have weeded out tiny detail, but I get the impression that it took a long time. None of our stuff is that intricate, it can just be very small.


----------



## mrbigjack50 (Jun 9, 2008)

Are you printing your own designs or doing contract printing?
DTG and a Roland is not like comparing apples to apples.. ie: DTG is far cheaper to do shirts than a versacam and it is a far faster process.
A good transfer is pretty costly per sq ft and time to print/weed ect. is ridiculous 
I do contract work and got my Brother for Shirts and Roland for Digital printing, case closed.
I don;t do darks and will never because to time consuming and not profitable if you base yourself as contract printing for other people.


----------



## scuba_steve2699 (Nov 15, 2006)

Kevin,
Quite the choice between the two. I can try to shed a little light on the subject. The DTG will have advantages over a versacamm in some areas, and the versacamm will be better in others. From a strictly t-shirt point of view, I think they are about even. You will be able to do the exact amount of detail on both for light shirts as the versacamm has clear solutions material that has the ability to print and adhere to almost anything with little weeding if you design your cutlines properly. The solutions clear has much better expandability than anything else I have seen printed onto a garment, including screen printing! We have samples in our shop printed on spandex material and challenge customers to "stretch to thier hearts content" and it comes back to its original form beautifully. 
From a dark garment point of view, there are pluses and minuses to both. The DTG will win on garments that have fine detail and/or small lettering. The versacamm will have to be weeded to remove unwanted areas and can be time comsuming on that. If you make your design with this in mind and work around those areas, you will have less of a problem. The versacamm would be tedious at best trying to make a design with paint splotches or a distressed look. The flipside is durability! The versacamm wil win hands down in this category. The prints look amazing and the wash and wear great! There are several different materials to work with that also include special effects that cannot be done with a DTG. You have several different thicknesses of materials to work with also that can change the "hand" or feel of the garment. You really need to see and feel the materials to get a good grasp of it. In dark garments I would give the thumbs up to a DTG for fine detail and small lettering or distressed designs, and a thumbs up to everything else on the versacamm.
For everything else, the versacamm rules! I understand that you are running alot of shirts. If you wanted to do anythng else, the DTG is useless. This is where the versacamm really shines! You can do everything from banners, decals, signs, magnets, car wraps, etc on the versacamm. It really pays for itself! If you can, I would talk to Josh at Imprintables and see if they are willing to sponsor you out to the training I give at my shop. It is a 1 or 2 day course that covers everything on the versacamm and has a hands on section where you will make all of the different shirts using the versacamm! We also make banners etc. over the two days so you can really get an idea of what is possible in your shop.
To address the quantity of shirts produced in a day, I would say that they are about even. We have done huge orders of over 300 shirts in a day using the versacamm and I would say it goes faster at some points as you can streamline production a bit. I can run some prints and be weeding them while the next set is printing, then have another person pressing while the first two steps are going. If you are using a DTG, you have to wait for each print to finsh prior to starting the next. We usually set prints up this way to maximize work flow.
I hope all of this helps. Let me know if there are any other specific questions that I might be able to help with.


----------



## scuba_steve2699 (Nov 15, 2006)

Joe - You can set up opaque solutions for a one shot quicker process. In versaworks, setup the print but perform a cut only and have it return to orgin. then print the design. It will make all of the cuts, then return to the beginning and print everything. You do not need to le tthe print sit overnight and cure to have it cut. By cutting first, you de stress the material and prevent it from curling after printing. I do this almost every day inour shop and it works like a charm!


----------



## Kwelp68 (Oct 25, 2007)

First of all, I really really have to thank everyone on this forum who has been absolutely gracious to me with all the advice and help. I wouldn't have made it this far with out you all. I love you guys! Major props to all of you, especially Peggy, Josh, and Steve. 

Mr Big Jack. You say that the Versacamm is more expensive to print shirts? I heard that ink cost was around 22-26 cents per square foot, and that vinyl cost was relatively low. I've just heard it's more expensive from some, and less expensive from others. 

I just recently went through my closet and pulled out all my printed shirts that I've bought over the years. One of the shirts I have is definitely a vinyl transfer. The vinyl on this shirt feels awesome, though I don't know what type it is, as I bought the shirt on ebay years ago. There's tons of tiny detail, and it looks like whoever made it must have weeded the hell out of it. The vinyl itself looks as nice as the day I bought it (no cracks, nothing) when the black cloth is faded after many many washes. My screen printed shirts, though still looking nice, are somewhat cracked. 

I'm still really torn here. I'm going to go see the Versacamm in action on Monday at a local dealer here. From what I've heard on the forum, the vinyl that Roland supplies for shirts is pretty crappy, but at least I can get an idea of the prints. Josh and Peggy are also sending me some samples with good vinyl, so I think this will really help me see what is possible. I can't thank you two enough for your graciousness in doing this for me. 

We go back to market in September, and I'm hoping I can have this issue resolved and decide whether or not to keep the DTG, or sell it and go with the Versacamm.


----------



## mrbigjack50 (Jun 9, 2008)

22 cents a sq ft LOL. ah I laugh myself to sleep on that, yea 22 cents if you printing at 360 by 520 for high speed banner mode, try closer to 55 cent (atleast for 720x720) and add cost of $2 to $3 sq foot on material and don't forget waste you'll have on sides of material and towards end of roll.
Than there is part were takes a few minutes to set it up to cut right way if you don't got Flexi sign software.
also gotta take time to align properly and bam there goes thoughts of it costing you a dollar to whatever imaginary number you come up with, with factors I set into play


----------



## scuba_steve2699 (Nov 15, 2006)

mrbigjack50 said:


> 22 cents a sq ft LOL. ah I laugh myself to sleep on that, yea 22 cents if you printing at 360 by 520 for high speed banner mode, try closer to 55 cent (atleast for 720x720) and add cost of $2 to $3 sq foot on material and don't forget waste you'll have on sides of material and towards end of roll.
> Than there is part were takes a few minutes to set it up to cut right way if you don't got Flexi sign software.
> also gotta take time to align properly and bam there goes thoughts of it costing you a dollar to whatever imaginary number you come up with, with factors I set into play



Sean, I agree that it is not 22 cents a square foot (although they are pricing just ink at that price) but more like 40 to 50 cents a square foot for ink alone. As for the substrate you are printing on, 2 to 3 dollars is not far off for some garment materials. For other materials like banner or decal vinyl, you will be down to 20 cents or less a square foot. I really do not see eye to eye with you on the flexi comment. I have flexi and think that it sucks, and use Corel and versaworks to do everything. There are no problems aligning anything with versaworks and no need for extra software. For garment material it will cost 2.50 and up per square foot but the cost per print can be much less than that as you can fit multiple designs into a square foot.


----------



## MotoskinGraphix (Apr 28, 2006)

Steve,

On 100% cotton shirts after wash does the vinyl bind around the edges like heatpress vinyl does? Simply stated the rest of the tee is going to shrink a bit but the transfer is holding the material in place so it doesnt shrink. With heatpress vinyl you end up with a bit of puckering or wrinkling around the design. This happens with texty as well. I stopped using 100% cotton and switched to 50/50 simply for that reason mentioned.

What do you not like about flexi?


----------



## mrbigjack50 (Jun 9, 2008)

Flexi has its ups/downs, The rip on it ain't to shabby but ain't greatest either, I just like ease of use and one click to make a contour cut because I am soo lazy Ha.
I been having issue of it freezing up when opening larger files or cutting and pasting certain types of files.

I ain't a guru on transfer but I know Roland stuff is hated by alot of folks but imprintables seem to have a nice stretchy material


----------



## MotoskinGraphix (Apr 28, 2006)

I have flexi and love it and just wondering about Steves issues with the app. as well as the feel and wash results of the Versas vinyl tee printing.


----------



## scuba_steve2699 (Nov 15, 2006)

David - it does bind a bit more with the opaques solutoins than other materials. I use Quickprint the most which has a slightly heavier hand than opaques solutions but you do not see any wrinkling with it!
Flexi seems to be cumbersome but it could also be that I am very familiar with Corel and can do most stuff very quickly there.

Sean - Roland could do everyone a favor and stop selling their heat transfer material! It sucks!


----------



## acca (Jun 25, 2006)

Scuba,

Does the quickprint have a matte finish to the material and do your customers mention how heavy the hand is with the quickprint? I love the thinness of the solutions opaque and stretchability but the glossiness and puckering after washing using 100% cotton shirts are a turn off.

Thanks


----------



## scuba_steve2699 (Nov 15, 2006)

acca said:


> Scuba,
> 
> Does the quickprint have a matte finish to the material and do your customers mention how heavy the hand is with the quickprint? I love the thinness of the solutions opaque and stretchability but the glossiness and puckering after washing using 100% cotton shirts are a turn off.
> 
> Thanks


You can get a matte finish to both Quickprint and Opaque by pressing it again with a craft paper to dull the finish. The hand is slightly heavier than opaque but our customers seem to like it!


----------



## theflowerboxx (Mar 26, 2007)

I know this is a somewhat old thread, but I was wondering for you guys who have a versacamm. Does the printed vinyl have a thicker hand then say a single layer of Thermoflex Plus?

I am in the market for an SP-300V and was wanting to also use it for printed shirts along with my sign side of my business. Also how well does it hold up to washing?


Thanks


----------



## Kwelp68 (Oct 25, 2007)

theflowerboxx said:


> I know this is a somewhat old thread, but I was wondering for you guys who have a versacamm. Does the printed vinyl have a thicker hand then say a single layer of Thermoflex Plus?
> 
> I am in the market for an SP-300V and was wanting to also use it for printed shirts along with my sign side of my business. Also how well does it hold up to washing?
> 
> ...


I agree with you. I want to hear what others have to say. I just did my first shirts using white eco film and was amazed at the quality. It was a light light feel and looked awesome. Not only that, but weeding was easy, and I was able to cut many at one time and then press them all. It didn't take near as long as I thought it would. If the Versacamm can make printed vinyl that feels and looks as good as the single color, than I think I'm sold.


----------



## raise (Apr 11, 2008)

theflowerboxx said:


> I know this is a somewhat old thread, but I was wondering for you guys who have a versacamm. Does the printed vinyl have a thicker hand then say a single layer of Thermoflex Plus?
> 
> I am in the market for an SP-300V and was wanting to also use it for printed shirts along with my sign side of my business. Also how well does it hold up to washing?
> 
> ...


Only suggestion I'd make there is get the 54 inch. If I had it to do over, I'd purchase a VP540 vs my VP300.

I'm not familiar with Thermoflex plus I can say that QuickPrint feels very much like heavy white ink printing from a DTG. In fact, I was commenting to my team that the QuickPrint felt like someone had printed a white underbase 3 times and there was a lot of agreement.

The major difference though is that the vinyl does not breath at all. A large DTG back print with white underbase will still feel more comfortable than a large vinyl print according to our informal in-house tests. 

That being said, vinyl does print well and have a comparable feel to the fingertips as DTG when demoing the product to our customers.


----------



## theflowerboxx (Mar 26, 2007)

Thanks raise, BTW why would you say you'd go with a 54" as opposed to your 30" unless you're planning to do car wraps? I am just trying to cover all my bases before I make the leap.


----------



## raise (Apr 11, 2008)

theflowerboxx said:


> Thanks raise, BTW why would you say you'd go with a 54" as opposed to your 30" unless you're planning to do car wraps? I am just trying to cover all my bases before I make the leap.


The larger size just gives you options you don't have with the smaller format printer.

Granted if you don't have the space or capital, then upgrading to the 54 inch is not going to be an option (assuming a solvent printer already matches your business plan and goals).

That caveat aside, you can always buy smaller rolls and fit them to the 54 inch but the first time you get a request for a 3ft x 6ft banner you will have to turn down the job. We found the aforementioned size to be very popular. _(edit: I am referencing printed banners. Since you already do signs I know you can cut the text/graphics for larger banners on the 30 inch but we only do printed product so the 54 inch would be our only option.)_

We found that once we had gotten the hang of printing on the Versacamm, we decided would be disadvantageous not to offer additional items to go along with our garment decoration services. The printer is already there, may as well upsell a $80.00 banner to go with the 48 pieces shirt order. Add decals and you are now a potential one stop shop for a sports team and its boosters.

Funny you should mention the car wrap bit. We never have intended to enter that business but one of our shirt clients is a car shop and we were asked to provide fleet decals at a wholesale rate for them. We agreed and now it has expanded from simple door decals and contour cut window decals to full window coverings and partial wraps. Literally at this moment, I'm trying to figure out how I'm going to get a 30 inch tall window decal printed which would not be an issue if I had a 54 inch printer.

The banner requests and the car vinyl are just two examples that have come up recently as to why the added flexibility of a larger printer/cutter is worth the long term investment. For months when shirts are slow, we still get banner and decal reprints or new print business. We could capitalize on more of those opportunities if our printer could accommodate them. Instead we have to turn down the larger print requests.


----------



## raise (Apr 11, 2008)

Kwelp68 said:


> I agree with you. I want to hear what others have to say. I just did my first shirts using white eco film and was amazed at the quality. It was a light light feel and looked awesome. Not only that, but weeding was easy, and I was able to cut many at one time and then press them all. It didn't take near as long as I thought it would. If the Versacamm can make printed vinyl that feels and looks as good as the single color, than I think I'm sold.


Eco-film rocks.

If it weeded itself and cut hairline thin, I'd never offer DTG for single color prints again lol.

For all of our single color jobs, we immediately look to see if eco-film can be used as it has always been well received.


----------



## theflowerboxx (Mar 26, 2007)

raise said:


> The larger size just gives you options you don't have with the smaller format printer.
> 
> Granted if you don't have the space or capital, then upgrading to the 54 inch is not going to be an option (assuming a solvent printer already matches your business plan and goals).
> 
> ...


 Thanks raise, yeah I guess I never thought about 36" wide banners. Those are my most popular selling banners too. Maybe I will have to re-evaluate my situation. This is great info provided and I hope more people chime in with ideas/advantages.


----------



## theflowerboxx (Mar 26, 2007)

raise said:


> Eco-film rocks.
> 
> If it weeded itself and cut hairline thin, I'd never offer DTG for single color prints again lol.
> 
> For all of our single color jobs, we immediately look to see if eco-film can be used as it has always been well received.


 raise since you use eco-film how much thicker is printed heatpress vinyl then eco-film. Thermoflex is a little thicker then eco-film.


----------



## Kwelp68 (Oct 25, 2007)

theflowerboxx said:


> raise since you use eco-film how much thicker is printed heatpress vinyl then eco-film. Thermoflex is a little thicker then eco-film.


I agree, I want to hear more about the printed quality of shirt transfers. As of now, all of our black shirts, one and two color designs, are done with eco film. It holds up better than DTG white ink, and I think it looks better. Eco film looks like it almost melts into the fabric a little, so it doesn't look like you stuck a sticker on the garment. Right now, I'm very pleased using it instead of the DTG for dark shirts. We do use the DTG for all of are light colored shirts though; pink, grey, and white. 

I'm curious to see what the printed quality looks like, and if you can get close to the feel of DTG or Screen print with the Versacamm. If this were the case, I could use vinyl print transfers for the light garments, as well.

I did get sent a printed transfer from a very very nice lady on this forum. It was printed with the Versacamm. One thing that I noticed was that the color wasn't as vibrant as I thought it would be. This could be due to the artwork, or she could've printed it at a low DPI. I'm not sure. Another thing was that if I pressed the transfer too long, it will burn the ink and discolor it. 

If anyone can, will you post pictures of shirts you've done with printed vinyl transfers? I'd love to see some different examples. So far, I'm very pleased with vinyl, and if I can get a good look with printed vinyl, it could really be beneficial.


----------



## scuba_steve2699 (Nov 15, 2006)

First - I could not agree with raise more! I started with the 30 inch versacamm abd have always said to anyone that will listen "GO WITH A 54!" you will always use the extra space. I too started getting wraps not to long after we got the machine and let me tell you, wrapping a econoline 350 van is not easy with a 30 inch machine. 9 panels per side but the job got done! To see some pictures, I can point you to another website garmentua.com. there is a picture player on there with many pictures of gament material. You can also do a search for versacamm on this forum and look at some of the posted pictures. If you are looking for even more, shoot me a pm and I will give you acess to my flickr account where there are tons of pictures to see. Hope this helps!


----------



## scuba_steve2699 (Nov 15, 2006)

Kwelp68 said:


> I agree, I want to hear more about the printed quality of shirt transfers. As of now, all of our black shirts, one and two color designs, are done with eco film. It holds up better than DTG white ink, and I think it looks better. Eco film looks like it almost melts into the fabric a little, so it doesn't look like you stuck a sticker on the garment. Right now, I'm very pleased using it instead of the DTG for dark shirts. We do use the DTG for all of are light colored shirts though; pink, grey, and white.
> 
> I'm curious to see what the printed quality looks like, and if you can get close to the feel of DTG or Screen print with the Versacamm. If this were the case, I could use vinyl print transfers for the light garments, as well.
> 
> ...



the garment might have been printed with the wrong settings. I teach a class on the versacamm and a lot of the time people are not using the right profile or color settings and get very dull prints.


----------



## rbonamarte (Oct 25, 2008)

*GREAT forum topic, I am so glad I found it!!!! I have lots to put in here:*

I am in the middle of a deal to sell my DTG printer with white ink capacity. My printer will be going to a new home Mid July. I am looking at replacing it with the Versacamm to print shirts as well as expand into all of these other items (banners, stickers, cut vinyl, car graphics, magnets, etc.) I will still outsource dtg prints to the new owners when the versacamm is just not right for the shirt prints.

One reason I'm selling my DTG - white ink prints take forever and percentage of screw ups is high for me. Pretreatment is an acquired taste (never acquired it) and ruining shirts by not getting pretreatment right is no fun. Too much treatment and the print actually comes out great, but then the print falls off of the shirt on the customer and you get that bad phonecall. Since we were getting more white ink prints than anything else, it was hard to turn a profit and higher percentage of unsatisfied customers.

I noticed several comments that maybe DTG prints for darks was cheaper, but I don't agree. White ink is expensive, and full size images can use a solid $3 or more in just white ink. Factor in the time to pretreat, 5% average throw aways, time to print the 2 layers, 120 seconds of curing time per shirt, it really starts to add up. My average was only 10 shirts per hour darks compared to 35 shirts per hour lights.

I do want to mention that my DTG printer had versatility, some said that DTG only does shirts. I already did art canvas, ceramic tiles, sand dollars, and couple other things on my DTG. But I see that Versacamm will give me more options (and outdoor durability).

SO, My main reason for posting: Sounds like I need to fork up the money for the 54", and don't buy the materials from Versacamm. I have Corel and I guess versaworks comes with the printer? Please respond with comments and suggestions for our transition into this with your experience and lessons learned.


----------



## rbonamarte (Oct 25, 2008)

Oh, and One BIG point that was touched on is that you limit yourself with DTG to cotton or mostly cotton apparel. There are DTG owners that will print 50/50, but the inks aren't designed for it and durability of print is extremely questionable. When I did orders for the names/numbers on sports jerseys, the material was always 50/50 or 100% poly so DTG was out and I had to use basic transfers.

Can I get some estimates on startup costs for the Versacamm (printer plus materials plus inks plus whatever else needed to start taking orders).


----------



## Fuzz (May 7, 2007)

Would love to hear see some startup costs on the Versacamm also.

Also, does anyone think i need to cut my teeth on a cheaper cutter before laying down the money on a Versacamm?


----------



## raise (Apr 11, 2008)

RE: Eco Film

Just by holding the materials I have and not looking up the actual thicknesses of each vinyl I'd say from thickest to thinnest is:

Quick Print
Ecofilm
Solutions Opaque
Solutions Clear / Airtech

Solutions Opaque pretty much sticks to everything and is incredibly thin but it also likes to lift from the carrier and can be a bear to weed on the carrier. A lot of times we have to mask and weed from the mask which isn't a big deal but is definitely more effort than pulling the excess from the carrier as you have to be careful not to crease the mask.

Quick Print would be the perfect garment vinyl imho if we didn't get so many rolls that seem to have issues with them. By issues, I mean sometimes the vinyl just doesn't want to stick to the mask. Prints from a different roll of Quick Print do stick to the same mask but sometimes the stuff just doesn't want to cooperate. We also found that the same vinyl that doesn't want to stick to the mask doesn't like to stick to the garments either. Fabric softener also seems to be the bane of the adhesive used as we have had several shirts returned when pressed with Quick Print all of which had only 1 thing in common, fabric softener during the wash cycle. Temperature, inside out, different detergents all didn't seem to matter but since we don't use fabric softener in our home, we never tested for it and shirts came back with vinyl falling off when washed with the fabric softener.

Still, Quick Print is good enough that 95% of our printed garment vinyl goes on it and we do have happy customers.

I think the biggest downside to using a Versacamm for garment decoration is simply gradients. If you have a lot of designs with splatters, gradients or fades you might be able to replicate a decent image with a Versacamm and your choice of vinyl but it will always be at the expense of the wearer's comfort or your cost in labor for weeding.

In another post someone mentioned that Cut Studio and Versaworks are not able to cut extremely small diameter circles. This same limitation prevents a lot of fine line and curve cutting and in turn limits the types of shirt prints you can do. Sure you can just print a large graphic with all of the effects you want and match the background image color to the shirt but then the customer is wearing 1/2 cotton and 1/2 vinyl siding. In our market where it is pretty warm, that is just not going to be popular.

Eco film is great, not that thick and fast to weed and press. Pretty much if it could be cut easily enough to be weeded faster, I'd never look for another product to do single colors.


----------



## scuba_steve2699 (Nov 15, 2006)

Again,.. Raise has it pretty dead on! I would really have to think and work up a list for startup costs but I know oyu can get startup packages from Imprintables for 11,000 on an sp-300 up to 21,000 for the vp-540. these include everything oyu need to get started. I would contact one of the sales guys there to see what they can do for you.


----------



## Fuzz (May 7, 2007)

Scuba, what do you think about a screen printer who exclusively uses photoshop, with zero vinyl experience, jumping into vinyl on an sp-300?


----------



## scuba_steve2699 (Nov 15, 2006)

Fuzz - there will be a learning curve and you will have to use either corel or illustrator to get cutlines etc set up but it will help you out tremendously with intricate graphics prints and even short run 2 or 3 color graphics prints. I like the sp-300 as a starting point ( I started there) but if you can, always go for the bigger machine even if it is slower so you will never have to turn down a job base don size.


----------



## Fuzz (May 7, 2007)

I got one more question for you and im not sure how easy it is to answer...

On the average shirt design, 10x10" with some text and a mascot with minimal weeding within the design, can someone expect to be able to completly setup the art, print,cut,weed and press a dozen shirts within an hour? And/or how many average designs do you beleive can reasonably be done within an hour from start to finish?


----------



## scuba_steve2699 (Nov 15, 2006)

we run more than that in an hour. once the design is setup you can be running the job while pressing the previous batch. we get kind of an assembly line going and can really crank them out! I would sya the max I have done in an hour is 45 or so. That is with the same graphic, setup once and then printing, cutting, weeding and masking by myself. I would run about 6 of them at a time on the versacamm and then while the next set was printing and cutting, I would weed, mask and press the first group. It its easier once oyu have done the first set.


----------

