# another lame loser idea...



## aggrovated (Dec 14, 2006)

So...I have another possibly lame idea.
I have lots of ideas about how i could start a t-shirt company. and I have tried and failed several times through the years, mainly due to the fact that I never have the capitol to do so...and partners come and go before I can even start.
I've been designing t-shirts for twenty years.
i'm fed up with struggling and I want to make money.
I've been laid off several times from a nice salary base employment...and have worked freelance off and on through the years.
Currently as a freelancer, over the years I have built a solid base of just a few clients that I have continually worked with. the resort industry is a seasonal industry...and I can ride the waves..but lately it's running dry.

Here's my idea...

Instead of trying to create a t-shirt company (with lots of overhead) and instead of offering my designs to each client (t-shirt manufacturers) exclusively while waiting for approvals (which could be months), I'm thinking I could offer my designs to everyone on the internet under a limited licence agreement so I would retain ownership of my designs, but buyers could use them as they wish. But they would have non-exclusivity with my designs (i'll resell them to others).....so i'd probably lose the interest of my current client base (which has been nil lately anyway) but build the possibility of lots of income from a much larger client base. The issue is: reselling my designs..and competing manufacturers would have the same design. and also, how to market my site so everyone can see it. 
Obviously, my target market is T-shirt Manufacturers and I have a plan to email all the sales reps in the industry (which know me and my art very well) and they will probably be up in arms about this and this idea will either blow the industry upside down or be a big giant fail again...but that's as far as I've gotten.

BTW: this idea is something I generally would hold a secret..but I just don't care anymore....I have nothing to lose...i'm broke and I'm tired of being under the hand of the industry...Ive been in it for so long, thats it's all I know...and I know it well.


----------



## kimura-mma (Jul 26, 2008)

aggrovated said:


> I'm thinking I could offer my designs to everyone on the internet under a limited licence agreement so I would retain ownership of my designs, but buyers could use them as they wish.


Generally speaking, if you're going to offer a license, it should be a proven commodity. You're asking someone to essentially 'rent' your graphics when they can simply buy them from literally thousands of designers out there. If you are licensing NFL graphics, or Star Wars graphics, etc, then I could see the value. But are your graphics that much better than anyone else's that it is worth licensing them as opposed to buying them or buying from someone else?



aggrovated said:


> But they would have non-exclusivity with my designs (i'll resell them to others)


This is gonna be a problem. If someone sees the value in your designs so much that they want to purchase a license, one of the greatest values they can get is exclusivity. So that they can truly capitalize on the value they see. But if anyone else can sell it as well, it dramatically decreases the value. Could you at lease offer exclusivity for a certain time frame... 6 months or a year?



aggrovated said:


> The issue is: reselling my designs..and competing manufacturers would have the same design.


Yes, big big BIG issue.



aggrovated said:


> and also, how to market my site so everyone can see it.


Another big issue. It takes money to market something. Whether it is t-shirts, cars or laundry detergent. So if not having enough money was an issue with your clothing brands, it's going to be an issue with your licensing business.



aggrovated said:


> Obviously, my target market is T-shirt Manufacturers


Don't they already have sources for designs? Either they have their own designers, or outsource them to design firms or freelancers, chances are any existing t-shirt brand is already getting designs from somewhere. So it's the same question as before... are your designs that much better? And if they are, why license them? Just sell them?



aggrovated said:


> and I have a plan to email all the sales reps in the industry (which know me and my art very well)


Couldn't you have done that with your own clothing brand? Why would this be any different? Oh and I thought sales reps sold product to retail buyers. There are reps that would sell your designs to t-shirt brands? Or are you just thinking that the reps have contacts to these brands?



aggrovated said:


> and they will probably be up in arms about this and this idea will either blow the industry upside down or be a big giant fail again...


It's definitely an outside the box creative idea. Which usually, sales types just don't get. But in their defense, if they have a good thing going doing what they do, why turn it upside down and take risks? It would need to be highly lucrative for them to take the risk. And when I say highly lucrative, I mean you have to PROVE it to them, not just explain the idea. Have you seen the show Shark Tank? They don't invest in anything unless you can prove that there is money to be made in the business.



aggrovated said:


> BTW: this idea is something I generally would hold a secret..but I just don't care anymore....I have nothing to lose...i'm broke and I'm tired of being under the hand of the industry...Ive been in it for so long, thats it's all I know...and I know it well.


You really seem to be a creative person. I understand things can be frustrating, but keep at it.

Have you ever thought of approaching a department store or clothing brand about a private label idea? This way you sell the idea - or licensing of the idea - but that company uses its resources to produce and market the brand, saving you needing the capital. You would just get paid royalties.


----------



## aggrovated (Dec 14, 2006)

Thank you kimura-mma...to answer your questions...

yes, my designs are good...usually in the top ten every year. My designs are proven in the industry. Sales reps have known me and my designs for years. My intent to email the sales reps is only that of pushing the designs to the manufacturers. I am the source for their designs. I've contacted reps with my previous t-shirt company attempts...and they're behind me 100%, but I cannot produce or deliver product to them. The cost is too much for me initially, even when I try to outsource contract printing through personal friends in the industry. It's just too much...I cannot get started. This is why i'm thinking about this idea....I've already been selling designs exclusively to my clients for years...i'm tired of selling them outright for a single fee...when they are making millions off of my designs. I want royalties/residuals off of my designs (I deserve it...frickin!! 20 years!!! and I've got nothing.)...my clients are unwilling to negotiate. and yes, i am currently in talks about a private label with one of my clients....but I need money now...not net/90. so i'm thinking I could do both...offer designs exclusively to my existing clients...while offering different licensed designs as well...and maybe my private label will pan out someday.


here's the reasoning behind this idea..
My ex girlfriend is making a "killing" off of selling digital downloads of design templates to her target market in photography. Why can't I do that with my designs to my target market?


----------



## sunnydayz (Jun 22, 2007)

There are several places that do exactly what you are talking about such as great dane graphics, Go Media and T-shirt factory. If your designs are unique and people like them you can do good, several companies do. It just comes down to is what you design, what is current in the market? One thing to think about when making these designs on licensed use is to make them vector, with easily separated elements, as alot of times people will buy these designs and take them apart and use only certain elements. Just a few things to think about


----------



## kimura-mma (Jul 26, 2008)

It seems like you have the connections and experience to give it a shot. It does seem like a good idea, and as BobbieLee mentioned, there are companies that do it. I guess it's finding the right client that sees the value and willing to pay you royalties rather than the flat fee. You said your current clients are unwilling to negotiate, maybe test it out with any new clients. They may be more willing if this payment structure is being used from the beginning.


----------



## aggrovated (Dec 14, 2006)

Yeah, I tried the vector art packs idea...didn't work out so good..but thats probably because I didn't think it out thoroughly....thanks Sunnydayz and kimura-mma for the suggestions.
I guess I need to rethink this idea.


----------



## aggrovated (Dec 14, 2006)

ok...my vector clip-art pack site is now functioning offering raster and designs as well


----------



## red514 (Jul 21, 2009)

site is looking good.
for the raster images, i'd suggest putting in info regarding size and resolution. Allot of our artists use clip art sites and one of the biggest complaints is that more often then not raster clipart is of poor resolution and we can't use it for what we intended.


----------



## aggrovated (Dec 14, 2006)

Thanks for the suggestion Red514!

now to get people to go to my site!!!

I have done the countless hours of free search submit
and i'm ready for google ads and facebook ads as soon as I can allot money towards the pay per click thingy.
and I plan on emailing everyone I know in the industry too.
went on a few forums as well. 


Sadly, not one purchase yet.
any other ideas would be greatly appreciated!


----------



## odil1372 (Aug 15, 2009)

I hope you don't take this offensively, but if you feel that your idea is a 'lame loser idea' then you probably won't be successful with it.

I don't know who the author is, but there is a saying "The man who thinks he can and the man who thinks he can't are both right".

Good luck!


----------



## aggrovated (Dec 14, 2006)

I agree...and normally I subscribe to that ideal.
It's just that when I first posted this topic I had a different idea in mind...and trying over and over again for years to establish my own company...and getting beat down every time, I start to get contemptuous about my own endeavors. 
I feel good about what im doing now....and my hopes are high.


thank you for you reminder!


----------



## freeblazer (Sep 25, 2009)

Some of the designs have multiple images. Maybe break it down into single images. One turtle, shark, etc. You would probably end up with alot more designs than you think. Price it out per image. There is a growing market for these guys getting digital printers. They need high quality full color images. Also sign guys might be interested in some.

Good luck


----------



## sjidohair (Apr 9, 2008)

I went to your website,, and I like what you are trying to do,, I would have no problem buying a vector pack for $10.00 or more, if it had what I needed to do my designs, 
How about putting a suggestion button on the site, so we can suggest what we need?
good work, go for it,, 
MMM


----------



## edward1210 (Nov 7, 2009)

sjidohair said:


> I went to your website,, and I like what you are trying to do,, I would have no problem buying a vector pack for $10.00 or more, if it had what I needed to do my designs,
> How about putting a suggestion button on the site, so we can suggest what we need?
> good work, go for it,,
> MMM


 I'm new on this field, and I have a question about this vector pack and his designs, can I use them to do t-shirt with sublimation (heat press)
Thank you


----------



## aggrovated (Dec 14, 2006)

yes you can!...assuming you can digitally print these out onto your heat transfer paper.
it's actually easier to do that than to have someone manually separate the design out with 4 color process or spot colors.


----------



## edward1210 (Nov 7, 2009)

aggrovated said:


> yes you can!...assuming you can digitally print these out onto your heat transfer paper.
> it's actually easier to do that than to have someone manually separate the design out with 4 color process or spot colors.


Ok that sound good for me, because I'm not a designer, just give me some time and I will buy some from you.

Do you have any christian or religious design?


----------



## Catbox (Oct 3, 2007)

Your artwork is really great... put up a facebook fan page... It only takes a couple of minutes and i will spread the word on my facebook personal page... and i imagine others will also...

Also if sales are slow and your motivation is low... Re-invent yourself...
Use your feelings to think of an idea to explain how you feel about the economy and life challenges... and use the ideas for tshirt design. 
Maybe some pics of people rising above their troubles... or optimistic shirt designs that people can wear and relate to... and most of all... don't give up


----------



## Visceral (Feb 12, 2009)

Hey man,

Since you have been designing t-shirts for 20 years you should team up with a manufacture so you dont have any overhead cost. WOOO!

-Adam


----------



## edward1210 (Nov 7, 2009)

Visceral said:


> Hey man,
> 
> Since you have been designing t-shirts for 20 years you should team up with a manufacture so you dont have any overhead cost. WOOO!
> 
> ...


----------



## sunilbrahmavar (Sep 16, 2009)

I saw your website and I agree, your designs are wonderful. Have you heard of the power of FCF (Free cash flow), which means money derived from your profits are invested to create additional inventory. I would suggest you to buy and print your designs only on as many tees as you can afford and sell them for atleast 2x your cost (both fixed and average variable). Now with the money you get by selling these tees, you are able to generate 2x the tees in your first run. So there is a multiplication factor involved in this abd this FCF concept can actually fulfill your dream of starting up your own firm.


----------



## ghanes14 (Dec 20, 2009)

I know the feeling, I am interested in trying to start up a t-shirt line, I know it's a challenging field but seems interesting. My challenge is I have not found anyone interested in being a partner yet, friends don't want to waste time "trying".

Since you seem to know your stuff with 20 years experience, why not attempt selling your own designs "again"? If your designs are that good, you should be able to sell your own product as well as sell your design to others.

http://back2lifedesigns.com/home/affiliate?as=1


----------



## darque (Dec 21, 2009)

if it was easy everyone would be rich! 

1) ideas 2)time & 3)costs... you pretty much get two out of three in any combination. You might be the best creative soul but it seems you lack one of the following...marketing ..... sales... money (the capital to float those brilliant ideas) 

The people making millions on your ideas have spent millions getting their brand out; that is worth its weight in gold (TIME) they also fail many more times than you do! 

no disrespect but what have you been doing the last 20 years if you were one of the best designers you should have saved some scratch? bought a home or ??? 

Your girlfriend, has a better idea. a direct to garment machine is not something everyone has laying in their living room, to buy your downloaded t. All humans have a printer and your gfs photos to download are only going to be printed on a laser printer... no real problems there. Dump your idea, and help make your gf's idea successful... why re-invent the wheel when you have a perfectly good wheel in your lap. 

Marry your girl...change your world. 

heheheehe good luck


----------



## aggrovated (Dec 14, 2006)

@Edwards -I'm sorry, I do not have any.

@Catbook I allready have a group fan page on Facebook.. 'artistofdesign'

@Visceral - Agreed - apparently no manufacturer agrees with me yet.

@sunilbrahmavar - I wish I could start off with just a few shirts, but the problem lies in the target market I do my designs for..'resort industry' it's what I do best....and requires a lot more than a few shirts, it requires custom namedrops and also a timely turnaround. using industry reps...the orders are so random....it could be 3 dozen all the way to multiple gross orders. 

@ ghanes14 - I know...I should! but easier said than done.

@ Darque - you hit the nail on the head...Im very bad at management....I need a partner to help me with that...and it's to late about the ex-girlfriend. but your right...her idea is better...obviously...she's making a lot of money from it...but her nitch market isn't mine...I'm not a photographer. heh maybe I should be.....but I am following her primary business model..and offering direct downloads for my designs....(woo!..no overhead!)...hopefully I can harness a nitch market too!


thanks guys for all your suggestions...they are very much appreciated.


Happy holidays to you all!


----------



## ghanes14 (Dec 20, 2009)

A bunch of things are easier said than done, but the only way to succeed is to push through the failed times and keep trying right? If you decide to give it a try my site has the "open store" link in the bottom right corner. It's only been live a few days and already have almost 200 views. I think the profiled descriptions on products helped out on the SEO or something...

Good Luck


----------



## Jason's_Place (Nov 1, 2009)

i really like the site and your artwork. I wish you much luck!!


----------



## Visceral (Feb 12, 2009)

I was actually going to team up with a manufacture that did stuff for obey and volcom, but I decided the deal wasn't for me and I started my brand with 5 grand and now I am going to be in Metropark in the Spring. The law of averages are that if you knock on enough doors someone will say yes. Read some cold calling/sales books because believe it or not they really help. Once you make the product get a sales representative/showroom as well, once you have gotten all your products completed and have a line sheet.

-adam


----------



## Theedge (Jun 11, 2008)

You have some nice looking designs there. The one thing I don't care for is the contact tab. Why not include your e-mail address? Phone? Cell Phone? Heck, let me send you smoke signals if I want.

I've gotten some decent phone calls on my cell phone on Sundays. And during a year like 2009, I was not annoyed.


----------



## Paulie73 (Jul 24, 2009)

Ok heres a bit of critiscism(?). You wont sell those palm tree rasters for $25. Why? Because you can get them for free. Secondly, your skulls are great maybe try selling all of them on istockphoto.com,vectorstock.com or fotolia.com. With the licencising you could make a heap of money ...Im sure about that. Your other designs are perfect for these sites
goodluck
.


----------



## aggrovated (Dec 14, 2006)

@ TheEdge - Thanks you for your suggestions..I have made adjustments to my website and added more ways to contact me...although maybe you aren't annoyed by spam as much as I am. 

@Paulie73 - Thank you for the stock image site suggestions... although they take a significant percentage from sales, I still might consider submitting to them.
As for your statement about my not being able to sell my Raster Palm Tree art pack? Please tell me where you can find a raster art pack of palm trees like what I have to offer!?!?
I haven't been able to find anything, let alone for free.
I sincerely believe I can sell them, especially at that low price....if I colored and shaded them to be full color, id have to charge a significantly higher price.

BTW, I haven't sold a single item on my site yet.
but I'm not deterred, I have confidence that they will sell eventually. I know my artwork is good, I used to have many sales reps tell me so up until the economy fell.


----------



## HHRSEGT (Nov 15, 2009)

Your designs are great. I think that many people will find that your work is superior to some of the crap that is out there. I want to make clear that this is not to be personal only to give my $.02. I would change some things with the website.
1) The second paragraph starts with the " depressed economy" I would eliminate all that info. It makes you sound desperate, not an established professional with 20 years behind you. Change this to something that makes people feel you are the bestand getting the best regardless of the times.
2) The designs are very specific about resort related, to me this will only be of interest to very few people. If you had some more designs from generic ideas this might be of more interest. You could use the resort idea as a sub section i.e. Atheletics, Automotive, Animals, Bikers etc.. appeal to more groups of people. When i looked at the site the first time i felt i needed to be the owner of a business looking for some one to do my design, not a print company looking for a design to use and alter. The designs had specific names of resort areas, needs to be clear that threse can be altered to have your own city name instead of ones showing. Most people don't own A.I. or Corel, unless its a printing or sign shop, this is limiting individuals from downloading for their own use.
3) In the About area i found you keep repeating you will do custom designs. This should be a larger section on the home page. Be proud of your work of doing custom work. Custom work = big profit!
4) The vector images are great, but any print shop or sign shop has something similar to these designs already. My shop has hundreds of skulls, hibicus and scroll/ leaf designs already. If i was a new shop i could buy some artwork in a package for same type of money for more designs.They may not be as good, but good enough to get by. Too many free sites for people to borrow images. Come up with some things that we haven't seen that we have to have. 20 years experience should have something that is different.

I don't want to be seen as being critical. It looks like to me that a lot of specifics with your site and designs have to fall in place for you and the site to be sucessful. My company started out selling window decals only, it was great. We started in the spring when guys were getting out working on their cars, sold a ton of decals, then winter came and we had nothing. We were limited to a small group of people. Today we have expanded into screen printing clothing and full service sign shop. In this economy we need to appeal to more people to keep the work flowing. I wish you well with you endeavours. I am glad to have found your site, i may have someone interested in some designs. Good Luck!


----------



## stickerguynyc (Apr 18, 2008)

i like your design looks good.. do you do design for auto market? like car racing,auto stuff? I actually need some design for it. But i need some simplest design no fade color only solid color since i do heat transfer. pm me if got something about cars


----------



## darque (Dec 21, 2009)

i think your talking to me ? darque right yes the answer is yes....


----------



## lewiswharf (Oct 1, 2008)

Heads-up, I can't read any of the text/nav. Text blends in with background.


----------



## aggrovated (Dec 14, 2006)

Thanks HHRSEGT! I am taking some of your sincere advise!


----------



## HHRSEGT (Nov 15, 2009)

aggrovated, hope i haven't been to critical. I want to see anyone who has an interest in this business to succeed. It would be a shame for you not to be successful with your quality of work. I am by no means as well off as i would like, but i continue to try new things and to listen to advice to grow and improve my business. Good Luck and keep on striving to make your dreams reality.


----------



## aggrovated (Dec 14, 2006)

Welp...I finally sold a bunch of designs after I emailed everyone I know in the resort industry. Whew!


----------



## Yarzan (Dec 17, 2009)

Hi aggrovated. I’ve read through your thread with great interest and I think I can relate to your situation. I’m new to these forums and this is my first post so I’ll introduce myself briefly: I’m a t-shirt artist and color-separator. I’ve worked exclusively in screen printing for last ten years (alternating between freelance and in-house employment). The vast majority of my work is done for a very local beach resort market but my total experience also includes many designs for major licenses.

Alright, enough talk about me. Instead I will now ramble on with whatever thoughts come to mind 

Your post is titled “another lame loser idea”. I’m sure that is meant as a joke since this is an informal message board. Still, it’s worth cautioning you not to kid that way in your professional dealings. Never depreciate yourself (“loser”) or your ideas (“lame”). A friend will give you the benefit of the doubt but not a client – especially not in our business where we expect people to PAY for our ideas. Your customer will show you no more respect than what they see you showing toward yourself.

Licensing your work is a sensible idea but, as you are beginning to see, it is challenging. It will require a very large degree of finesse on the part of your negotiating skills. Kimura made some excellent comments, especially about how licensing will be perceived by your buyers. I took a class in copyright law way back in art school. I’ve read the rules and I’m fully aware of the rights artist are entitled to. You have a legal right to negotiate the use of any work you create as freelancer and to resell it within compliance of that agreement. Unfortunately, the screen printers who don’t understand this might see you as trying to tick or confuse them with a lot of legal terms. The ones who do understand it, often see it as a time consuming headache. Both types will be resistant but not impossible. You just have to be prepared for the challenge. There is a third type by the way: the ones that think they know about copyright but have their facts wrong – those are the ones to watch out for (but again, not insurmountable). As Kimura pointed out, most screen printers know they can get (and often expect) the equivalent of complete copyright transfer from any one of their other artists (most of whom do not themselves know what they are giving away). So this is what I mean by finesse… being able to take care of your own interests while understanding and accommodating your customer. Not easy but not impossible.

It’s important to understand both sides of the situation. I think you already know this but I’m going to write it out just to be clear. The printer has a very large investment. Both in terms of production overhead and sales/marketing effort. They’ve done all this leg work to bring the end-buyer to the table before there’s any promise of payment. If they’re lucky, the buyer will place enough orders to cover this plus the expense of production and delivery. Then there’s you, a talented artist who’s invested a lot of time to become an expert in this very specialized field. The printer knows they can’t land a client or sell a shirt without the art so they see you as another “expense”. This is a misconception on their part. You’re work is not an “expense” – your work IS the product. Everyone hopes for a design to take off and when it does, the printer finally makes real profit from the reorders. Read that again: when the DESIGN takes off, the PRINTER profits. Understand that this is good and it is fair. Now we ask what is fair for the artist?

Think about it for a minute.

Are you ready for the answer?

Here it is:

The artist deserves no more and no less than what they agreed to when they made the deal with the printer. I know that sounds like a let down but cheer up. The point is, you may feel entitled to royalties on your successful designs – and rightfully so – but you have to arrange such a deal upfront (perhaps beginning with the next job you do). Something along the lines of, “pay me this much on the first run and then so much on each reprint”.

I’m not saying I do this myself but I should. One of the problems you run into is how do you know what quantities they are running (if you want so much ¢ per shirt) or when they reprint. One solution – and this is literally right off the top of my head – is to charge them $XXX to print the design for one year, at which point they can pay another $XXX to renew their “limited ownership”. They can choose not to renew with the understanding that you will dismantle and resell the artwork in any way you see fit (excluding trademark logos and slogans, of course). This way you can keep track of payment yourself. If you try this idea, please let me know how it works – I’m liking the sound of it as I type.

If you’re wondering how to introduce this new policy to your old clients, here is a suggestion: First, never ever use the word “policy”. It makes you sound inflexible. Second, just explain to them that you have people interested in using parts of your work; that you want to protect everyone’s interests (your client's and your own); and that this way the client only pays for what they plan to use. Also be sure to mention that you are a proven talent for them and you like working together.

Bottom line: Licensing (copyright negotiation) is a demanding area that requires knowledge, creativity, effort and great interpersonal skills. It separates the seasoned professional from the amateur. It is not the key to a fantasy life of “free money”. On the other hand, it may unlock the earning potential and sustainability of your career.

I looked at your site by the way and your designs are very good. If I didn’t think your work was strong enough to make use of it I wouldn’t have bothered to give so much input. I can see that you combine photos and hand drawn elements. How about the sea life and the girls? Do you draw those yourself?

Another question I have is that your design packages indicate front/back print, document size and spot color suggestions. What do you mean by suggestions? Do you do the color-separation yourself?


----------



## aggrovated (Dec 14, 2006)

Yarzan,
Thank you for taking the time to comment on my predicament.
I have to agree with what you said....It boils down to what I think my self worth is and how I can eloquently negotiate a contract to clients. Confidence is key. Each client is different, and usually is professional enough to accommodate a successful negotiation were both parties are happy with. But like you said...I need to be up front with my negotiation before a contract is made.<<<---so important, a lot of people make the mistake where-as if the dedicate themselves with hard work and loyalty...they might get a decent promotion.....only to find out years later how disappointing all the effort was. 

I like your idea about a limited licence agreement...I will investigate it further.
Right now I have a few simplified set criteria's for pricing upon my design work. One set is an up front fee for buying a design outright...with all copyrights included. The other is basically half that amount, but with a royalty of $XX per shirt, starting with the first sale. NOT a % (asking for that is too vague and scary for both parties).

Perhaps I haven't clarified what I'm really after...I want a partner to help start my own t-shirt business with.
You mentioned that "The printer has a very large investment." and that (along with not finding a suitable partner) is one of the many reasons why I cannot get a business off the ground.

I have a a few "failed" sites that I made, but I don't have the capitol to get started. Blue Reef Bay is one of them.
What I do have is: an arsenal of seasoned industry reps, progressive designs, 20 yrs experience and decent garment sources behind me.

some may argue to "start off small"...but what they don't realize is that this industry is very demanding. I have to have the means of turning around a lot of product when demand hits. And demand hits!! There are many other variables that I wont get into now but all play a crucial role in balancing a successful company.

To answer your questions:
I do *NOT* use photos for any of my designs. I illustrate all aspects of my designs. My designs vary from 1 to 8 colors...and I depict spot color pantone #'s in the suggested order. I do not separate my designs, as it takes too much time away from my designing and it's usually too dependent on the clients in-house capabilities.

Thanks again for the valuable insight! Yarzan. very much appreciated.


----------



## HA (Jan 9, 2010)

I'd be willing to pay commissions off of sales, Most artist want flat rate. Too risky and I can see that. Is this what your talking about here? Or do you charge a flat rate and want %'s off your designs. I've also been at it for 20 yrs and it is frustrating but that's why this site is so awesome so you can help and get help. I think if it works for your girlfriend, then it can work for you, especially if your as good as you say you are. I could always use a good artist. The problem I have is finding one that understands Hawaiian culture and art and also has a bigger vision than piece work and wants to invest and build a brand. If you know of one let me know, I'd like to check em out. Good luck!-Jeff


----------



## Yarzan (Dec 17, 2009)

Thank you for starting this thread, Aggro. It has really got the gears turning for me. I meant to comment on your t-shirt business ambitions before but there's only so much I can fit into one post 

If I understand, you want to start your own t-shirt line and you want to be able to print it under your own roof. Is that right? That would be the surest way to retain ownership and earning potential for your work. I think a lot of us (artists) have thought along similar lines. Most never end up doing it because of the money it takes. Actually, most don't do it because they don't fully develop a plan (the money is just the first big block and that's where they stop). Others, by some combination of work and luck actually do it. I think you nailed it when you identified the need for a partner. I live in a beach town and of the small number of shops that operate here, the best ones were started by an artist - someone who wanted to make the art AND print it. One of them managed to launch a fishing t-shirt line that brings them steady work with name-drops and such. Another shop was literally founded on the wild success of their line in the 80's. All of them do small local gigs too. All are what I'd call mid-sized printers and none are nationally known. It's small town stuff but they make enough to do what they like and be happy.

Once in a while though, someone somewhere makes it big. I'm thinking of someone like Rick Reitveld: An artist and his buddies start making t-shirts as "Maui & Sons" and then it just blows up. How does it happen? Connections? Luck? Probably. But also, Reitveld isn't just a great artist - he brought something to t-shirts that no one had seen before.

Am I getting way off target here?

I'm no great business man so I can hardly advise you on how to make it happen but I do know it can be done. I had a "failed" site too. In 2005, my website featured a pretty large catalog of vector images pulled from my designs. It had a shopping cart, instant downloads upon payment and everything. It was my own clip-art company. But I hadn't put any thought into promoting it. There were other problems too but needless to say, I never fixed them.

There are few other things I want to say but I'll have to get back to you.

And I apologize for suggesting that you used photographs. You are a very good illustrator. Take my mistake as a compliment and evidence that even another artist can make a clumsy comment about art.

More later.


----------



## aggrovated (Dec 14, 2006)

@ HA...PM Sent

@ Yarzan...Some of the things you said in your last post have hit home closer than you probably realize that
I'm not going to comment on other than that....You are not off target.
but I have to say that I appreciate the brutal reality that you are conveying. 

In truth, my clip-art idea will probably fail like yours because of a few reasons, not only because... like you said "I hadn't put any thought into promoting it. There were other problems too but needless to say, I never fixed them." but because I don't put the _love_ into it as I do my T-Shirt designs. Loving what you do is a very important part in any endeavor! I find Clip-Art packages are very tedious to set up too. I haven't sold any yet either.

I'm focusing on what I do best! and that is t-shirt design.
Money, promotion and a detailed plan is also very important. At least I have a plan and a key promotional avenue (Sales Reps) once I have product to move. My realistic intent is to be national and I almost have the means to do so.


----------



## Yarzan (Dec 17, 2009)

Right on Aggro. I couldn’t agree more about the heart is takes be exceptional at something. This is easily another long thread in itself but I’ll save that rant for another time.

The third and final point I’d like to make about your (and I might as well say “our”) situation has to do with creative drive. Some might call this a “work ethic” but to me that sounds misleading. It’s not so much about the hours you put in (although that is important). It’s more about your general level and diversity of creative energy and how that energy applies to earning a living. Here is what I mean:

At one time I was enrolled in a master’s degree program in illustration. Three times a year we would convene in a different US city for one week. Working illustrators – about two per day – from that area of the country would conduct workshops and generally talk to us about the mechanics of their career. What became clear to me through all these introductions was that the living these people make is pulled from a number of different sources. Their niche might be book covers but they also do advertising work, write articles, books, teach workshops, enter art shows and so on. So yes, they earn their living as a freelance artist but that living is diversified. I’m not talking about doing everything for everybody – I’m talking about doing everything you can for yourself. Their art style remains personal and identifiable. It’s how they source it that varies.

Diversifying was just my own observation. What was specifically taught to us, however, was the importance of initiating your own projects. Seek out commission work *and* develop your own project. The two reinforce each other in terms of promotion. You can see how this would apply to t-shirts.

Add it all up – skill development, networking/promoting, commissioned art and developing your own brand – and you basically have a recipe for 365 day work year. So you better love it!

I really don’t mean for these “realities” to sound “harsh”. They’re more like… just things that surprised me when I encountered them. So, yeah, they can be harsh if you’re not ready for them. Also, readers should remember what I said in my second post. There is nothing wrong with keeping it small if that's what fits your life better.

There are two books I would recommend to you. Both might be at your library. Do they still have libraries?

Legal Guide for the Visual Artist by Tad Crawford – you don’t have the read the whole thing at once. Just go through the table of contents at reference the info as needed.

Graphic Artist’s Guild Handbook Pricing and Ethical Guidelines – A very informative collection of going rates in the commercial art biz. I’m not a Guild member and I think their writing can sometimes be a little over zealous. Nevertheless, no book does a better job of compiling this info.

The most valuable part of both books is the model contracts they provide in the back.
Nothing would please me more than to see you succeed, Aggro. If you can make it, maybe I will too!


----------



## darque (Dec 21, 2009)

like professional sports their is a cap in this industry 1200-1500 per design max~(from an outside client not used to industry pricing) seems to be the exception not the rule. 

if you can get percentages on a t-shirt then, you better trust your client... bigger companies need more and more sales to keep their job, and you would be surprised which companies have stolen designs from me. proof of sales, honesty, then getting the actual check? good luck. that is why most spec work is payment in full... better for me anyway. 

joe plumber wants a bad *** t but only wants 72 pieces the first run, so he bocks at the 500 bucks his bad *** design would sell for in a different industry. He takes it or he doesnt a lot of times he just takes the design supplied by the printer as a freebe.

what do you want ? to be rich? so does everyone else! work ? sounds like your still working count your blessings! do you want jesse james success ? no sheeet that would too be interesting... the world order in its purest form is simple... if you cant achieve or have not achieved a desired goal yet, re-evaluate goal; 

a. be specific ? i still have no idea why were still talking about this thread. maybe you have never actually thought about your goal beyond the term success ? success is a big word.

b. maybe your not carrying the correct set of tools or skill set. most great tshirt artists use this industry as a stepping stool ... 

c. maybe you are asking the wrong questions and cant see the forest through all those trees....

d. do what you are truly afraid of; SALES ! cold calls, ewwwwwww.... follow through with each client.... one nickel at a time.... when the economy is down get in more peoples faces with a clever idea and beem success. model your desires from others tha have succeeded? 

if you build "it" they will come. 

but what is it?


----------



## Yarzan (Dec 17, 2009)

darque said:


> i still have no idea why were still talking about this thread.


And yet here you are eager to join in. Tell us more about the "world order".


----------



## darque (Dec 21, 2009)

Not "world" order~ Universe. 
The deeper we search the simpler things are 

It was not meant as a critique or judgement ~ more of a place card statement for "what does this creative individual really want ! 

and 
there...


~


take that!


----------



## darque (Dec 21, 2009)

And if i seem harsh or brash its because sometimes brutal honesty is shocking and at initial read appears overtly cruel. 

people can fight or flight cream rises and if he is on his correct path he will figure it out. 

see simple


----------

