# VOTE HERE - Your thoughts on printing WHITE



## Printzilla (Mar 22, 2007)

Vote here and post up your reasons for why you voted the way you did!


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## Printzilla (Mar 22, 2007)

I use it for runs of less than 6 shirts and one off retail sales.


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## GRH (Apr 25, 2007)

I voted (I used it at one time, but now only use it for testing and personal shirts.) but this is not accurate I still have it in the machine and will only print dark shirts if I am forced to. My real thoughts are a combination of the last 3 lines on the pole. My main complaints are the inconstant pretreatment methods and the very high cost of printing white ink make it very difficult to make a profit.


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## zoom_monster (Sep 20, 2006)

I use mostly for small runs that would be cost prohibitive otherwise (screens, separations, time... etc.) . Will use on larger runs if my hourly rate and costs are taken care of. It'll never be "screenprinting" or be as profitable on larger runs(as it stands now), but if you can sell what it "is", Direct to Garment with white is a very viable option. There is most definately a market out there.


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## Gunslinger (Aug 3, 2007)

As a T-Jet 3 user for 4 months now, I voted "It is great, and can be used in a production enviroment!"

But you really need to add a poll option, like um ... "Yes, I use it all the time, but it is a pain in my arse!" ... would have been more appropriate for me. I burnt a lot of shirts during the bad batches of white ink fiasco, and consistency is a problem. But, yes it does work ... yes, it can affect your bottom line ... yes, someone needs to make a better mousetrap.


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## Printzilla (Mar 22, 2007)

Gunslinger, what size dark shirt runs are doing?


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## zhenjie (Aug 27, 2006)

Where is the "I use it because I have to but its a nightmare sometimes"


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## Printzilla (Mar 22, 2007)

lol! I guessed I missed an option!


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## zhenjie (Aug 27, 2006)

I voted for the small runs < 6. I also do one-offs at high margins which is great when those sort of orders come in.

I once did 500 black, two-sided prints with white ink. Worse. Week. Ever!! I've learnt my lesson now and stick to small runs


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## Printzilla (Mar 22, 2007)

zhenjie said:


> I once did 500 black, two-sided prints with white ink. Worse. Week. Ever!! I've learnt my lesson now and stick to small runs


WOW - I would have been looking for razor blades and rat poison.


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## zoom_monster (Sep 20, 2006)

Gunslinger said:


> As a T-Jet 3 user for 4 months now,............ I burnt a lot of shirts during the bad batches of white ink fiasco, ........


Ok GunSlinger, I have to ask....you've had your machine for 4 months and you've had a "fiasco" already? . Who sold you "bad batches" and what is this about?


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## treadhead (Jul 26, 2006)

Having our T Jet II for a little over 3 months, we're still "riding" the learning curve a bit. I voted that 2 dozen or less for white ink moving forward. I am currenly in the middle of a 175 shirt order on sport grey with white ink but only because they needed shirts by Tuesday when they placed their order on the previous Friday. Of course, nobody else would touch it and there was no other way to get them shirts that quickly.

It has since resulted in another 300 shirt order that we are going to use plastisol transfers for.

We have gotten better with the pretreatment consistency but still have too high a fallout (scrap) from various "glitches" and occasional pretreatment. The main issue really is it is just too slow when you consider the time it takes to pretreat two sides and then print two sides of the shirt.

But, I think it is very valuable for lower quantities and a much better option when printing on whites or lights that don't require any pretreatment. Basically, we use DTG or vinyl for lower quantity stuff and start to consider plastisol transfer for anything over 2 dozen shirts unless it is just a white shirt. If we get above say 500 shirts, then we start to consider contracting out to a screenprinter at least until I get some time to start to play with our screenprinting equipment.


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## kriscad (Dec 18, 2006)

i was at SGIA show and saw this guy sleeping while he waited for 1 black shirt to get printed 










lol


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## Justin Walker (Dec 6, 2006)

As I sit here posting, I am in my shop at my desk, watching dark heather shirts come out of the tunnel dryer one at a time. They have been doing this for the past 16 hours, and this will continue until about Wednesday of next week, without interruption. Of course, my guys are printing with my Kornit.... Slowly. This run is 600 shirts, front AND back print (oversized). Is it my favorite thing to do? No. Can I do it? Yes. Do I mess up shirts? Yes. Do I make money - hell yeah!

And now for the 1 million dollar question..... Can you make money with an Epson based machine using DuPont white ink......?


































YES! (Wow, I bet you didn't see THAT one coming, Pink). The industry is evolving, and the process is getting better. I have a black shirt in my shop right now printed by Dan Salgado that has LITERALLY changed my life.  It is phenomenally vibrant, soft, and I CANNOT SCRATCH OFF THE INK! It really made me reconsider my views on the DuPont ink. Even if it cost $4 in ink alone to print, I can make money off of that. A LOT of money.

The trick is learning how to do it. It is like making high quality process screens in traditional printing - you don't buy some screens and emulsion and make a masterpiece your first day - it takes TIME. Most shops have entire rooms dedicated to making screens - entire DEPARTMENTS. If I ever switch to DuPont ink, I would develop and entire department JUST for pretreating shirts. I already have a room in my shop being built just for that.


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## zhenjie (Aug 27, 2006)




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## Fluid (Jun 20, 2005)

they are not up to par as of yet and too expensive for the hassles. I personally will wait another year or two until they get them working better.


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## PinkFreud (Mar 8, 2007)

Hey Justin good to hear from you....not surprised that you know that the standard machines can print successfully on black....I thought you were doin it with your Flexi....what really surprises me is that you are using that expensive Kornit for such a low profit job....explain to me how you can make any money printing a 600 shirt job....2 sides....on a dark shirt...and you say the job will take over a week? Seriously dude what am I missing? Why not have this job screenprinted and keep your Kornit open for the smaller high profit jobs which digital printing is meant for...even the Kornit....Although knowing you.. maybe you want to do this job just so you can prove to yourself that you can do it....If thats the case I am not at all surprised.


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## Fluid (Jun 20, 2005)

> .explain to me how you can make any money printing a 600 shirt job....2 sides....on a dark shirt...and you say the job will take over a week? Seriously dude what am I missing? Why not have this job screen printed and keep your Kornit open for the smaller high profit jobs which digital printing is meant for...even the Kornit...


 A job like that could be screen printed in about 5 hours tops running at a slower index 

What would the ink consumption be for a job that size?


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## Printzilla (Mar 22, 2007)

Believe it or not, there are people out there that just do not want screen print. We have a customer whose model allows him to pay the extra couple of bucks to have it done digitally. he likes the hand and the much higher quality image. We have done several orders that size, and done them profitably. Not to mention we can change the size of the print in about 2 minutes to scale it for varying sizes of garment


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## Justin Walker (Dec 6, 2006)

PinkFreud said:


> Hey Justin good to hear from you....not surprised that you know that the standard machines can print successfully on black....I thought you were doin it with your Flexi....what really surprises me is that you are using that expensive Kornit for such a low profit job....explain to me how you can make any money printing a 600 shirt job....2 sides....on a dark shirt...and you say the job will take over a week? Seriously dude what am I missing? Why not have this job screenprinted and keep your Kornit open for the smaller high profit jobs which digital printing is meant for...even the Kornit....Although knowing you.. maybe you want to do this job just so you can prove to yourself that you can do it....If thats the case I am not at all surprised.


Printzilla actually got to this one before I did, and he is 100% correct. This particular client asked for sizes ranging from Youth S to Adult 3XL. As such, he wanted the artwork resized for EVERY major size increase of the shirt, both on the FRONT and on the BACK. Also, the front image is a tall image, and would therefore require new screens (couldn't gang it on the back image most likely). So let's see - taking into consideration 4 resizings, on an 5 color front and an 8 color back, you do the math. That would be what? 32 screens for the back and 20 for the front? Even if you COULD fit some of the fronts on the back screens, you are still out of control with screen setup up costs, time, registering and setting up every single resize on the press, etc.

Our prices are listed on our website (soon to be completely revamped, btw). We charged this client $7.50 for the printing alone, and we threw in the resizes for free, as well as the oversized print charges. We also charged the front print as a "pocket" print, even though it was much much taller. We did this only because of volume.

I do not have a problem discussing what we charged them, because our prices are published for the industry. So that is $4,500 before ink and labor. Even if it took a full week, we are still doing pretty good. As it is turning out (we are on day 2, and we almost have most of the fronts done right now), it will not take us as long as I anticipated because I adjusted the settings on the printer. And to cap it all off - my plans involve ultimately having multiple printers that will enable me to get jobs like this done in a day. I am just making sure business continues to stay consistent before I dive right in.

Oh, and as I posted on SPU this morning..... I am rounding the corner to 10,000 prints as we speak. If 70% of those are darks, I have SAVED about $21,000 in ink and pretreatment costs in the past three months by having a Kornit. Imagine where I will be in a year or two? Well, who knows if I will still be using Kornits or any some machines, but I can assure you I will be on the cutting edge.


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## Justin Walker (Dec 6, 2006)

Making money, one dark shirt at a time.


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## Printzilla (Mar 22, 2007)

270 views and only 12 votes. Kinda surprising. Both in the voter turnout and the results of the poll so far.


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## Gunslinger (Aug 3, 2007)

Printzilla said:


> Gunslinger, what size dark shirt runs are doing?


The largest was a 200 shirt run for a local rock station for our annual Motorcycle Jamboree. LOL, unfortunately, it was the worst week of my life, as it was during that run that we discovered we had two bottle of bad white ink. I burned 50 plus shirts, and about a third of the successful prints had inconsistent underbases, so the some prints were off a bit color wise. But, I have heard that this print is the only shirt one of the DJs ever wears to work ... that guy REALLY loved it.

Right now, I am only printing blacks and colors (depends on the design) for the retail side of things. And for retail, I am staying away from whites (for DTG, maybe dye sub), until I can figure out some way to avoid that initial fade on the first wash. My colors don't do that.


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## Gunslinger (Aug 3, 2007)

zoom_monster said:


> Ok GunSlinger, I have to ask....you've had your machine for 4 months and you've had a "fiasco" already? . Who sold you "bad batches" and what is this about?


Honestly, I am not real clear on the details, but there were about four batches of white ink that was causing a lot of problems printing the expected underbase for some of us (T-Jetters). It really didn't matter who the seller or dealerwas, but the folks at US Screen Print eventually figured it out, and replaced the bottles. Didn't help all the ruined prints or shirts, but what's done is done.


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## kriscad (Dec 18, 2006)

Fluid said:


> A job like that could be screen printed in about 5 hours tops running at a slower index
> 
> What would the ink consumption be for a job that size?


I can do it in less time, if you GIVE my People *SOME AC*!

hahah

its soooooo hot!!!!


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## Justin Walker (Dec 6, 2006)

Under 5 hours with no less than 4 sets of 8 screens, plus the front resizes??  I bet alot of shops can, actually.  I know a couple shops with 8+ autos just rocking and rolling 24/7.


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## treadhead (Jul 26, 2006)

kriscad said:


> i was at SGIA show and saw this guy sleeping while he waited for 1 black shirt to get printed
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
I just busted out laughing when I saw this!!!!!  

I am here alone at our store at 11 pm...printing sport grey shirts on two sides with white ink.... This one just hit home!!!


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## kriscad (Dec 18, 2006)

treadhead said:


> I just busted out laughing when I saw this!!!!!
> 
> I am here alone at our store at 11 pm...printing sport grey shirts on two sides with white ink.... This one just hit home!!!



lol 

true story... last year at SGIA -we were at *Scott Fresner*'s Booth... and watching the rep in the booth print a design on black... he hesitated to do a new one from the start, but we pushed the issue and he did. By the time the shirt was done, we were all sitting down waiting for it to finish.

I think for one off's they are great... or your like the guy above who has all the time in the world to print out a large order of them... go for it. _(by the way, I have never... ever, ever had a client tell me they want a different sized print for each shirt size. - that's a new one for me.)_


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## zoom_monster (Sep 20, 2006)

Justin Walker said:


> "........Oh, and as I posted on SPU this morning..... I am rounding the corner to 10,000 prints as we speak. If 70% of those are darks, I have SAVED about $21,000 in ink and pretreatment costs in the past three months by having a Kornit. Imagine where I will be in a year or two? Well, who knows if I will still be using Kornits or any some machines, but I can assure you I will be on the cutting edge.


So Justin, you really feeding that beast 160+ prints a day? On this particular job, what's the throuput per hour? Fronts and backs?


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## PinkFreud (Mar 8, 2007)

I will be on the cutting edge. :D[/quote said:


> ....wise guy!
> 
> Look I never heard of a request for different sized prints for each size either but I will take Justins word on that one although I prefer the customer insisting on the soft hand of digital printing better...anyway what I cant get my mind around is printing 10,000 shirts in 3 months especially on a new machine with a learning curve but hey who am I to count Justins shirts?.....The point is that it would cost me around $21,000 in white ink alone to print 7,000 shirts....I cant argue that the Kornit machine offers low ink costs and along with the automatic pretreatment application it is a very impressive machine but realistically only a 24/7 maniac like Justin could ever hope to break even on a Kornit before the current technology is obsolete....I hope the ink prices come down and the white ink technology advances...but ultimately...whether you have a standard DTG or a Kornit the end product is pretty much the same....I wish all of us much success but I dont think printing 600 shirts a week on a $175,000 machine is the answer....
> 
> ...


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## Justin Walker (Dec 6, 2006)

My machine has not seen a day where it has not printed. Well, a NIGHT anyways. I usually run print shifts at night - 6 hours has been about average for the first couple of nights. The first few weeks were DEFINITELY alot of testing, but those printed shirts HAVE to be considered when calculating your ink consumption. I've printed HUNDREDS of sample shirts alone, before even printing a single client file.

Before I adjusted the printer settings, I could do about 25 dark garments per hour. That was about 150 garments per day on a 6 hour printing shift. For lights, we were at about 210 per day on the same shift. We are now running almost 24/7. Of course, it would be NICE if this was a permanent shift, but it is probably going to settle out in about two weeks. But even as I sit here and my employees work their butt's off, I have had a half dozen small orders come in today alone. That puts us even further out on our production schedule.

I think one problem, Pink, is that you focus only on the purchase price of the machine itself. I got my machine installed in April (which actually puts me at about 4 months), and I have already saved $21,000 in ink. By this time next year, I will have saved $84,000 in ink cost alone, if I NEVER increase my 4 month production rate. If I continue to get busier, that number could easily double - or more. How long have you had your T-Jets? How much could YOU have saved at this rate?

Of course, there are arguments for both sides. The Kornit has its troubles like any other machine. Right now, my guys are cleaning the heads on the machine to keep the white ink from fogging. Personally, I do not think we should have to do this so often to keep the machine behaving well. Of course, I HAVE been abusing it more recently. I could see myself adding a few small format machine in an embroidery style format to create a much much higher combined hourly output possibility for both light and dark garments, increase my prices $1 per shirt, and still make fantastic money contract printing. Who knows what the future holds? Hell, one of my biggest upcoming clients is promising more than 4,000 dark shirts per MONTH, and is more than happy to pay an additional $1 for their garments. They are all onesies and twosies, so 100% consistency would be much less of a problem.

Oh, and at YOUR suggestion Pink.... I am doing a Route 66 car show in a few weeks and charging $35 per shirt to put people's car on t-shirts for them.  I am very excited about this possibility...


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## Printzilla (Mar 22, 2007)

It's more like 1200 a week on a 100k machine. Still maybe not the answer, but a little different.


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## PinkFreud (Mar 8, 2007)

Well you guys whatever it is...it is what it is....regardless of the cost the bottom line is you guys own the real "cutting edge" machine in this industry....I have yet to see a compelling reason to invest in a Kornit at this time but I appreciate having a dialogue with the few people who have one...I think we can all agree that regarding digital garment printers it is your business model that is most important, not the machine....I have yet to see any concrete evidence that the business model where bulk wholesale printing on all colors is viable.....I feel that screenprinting has this market covered. The t-shirt market is growing everyday...and it is evolving....Starbucks sells one cup of coffee at a time...they dont wholesale to other coffee distributors (ok maybe they do but humor me)....I feel that there is a huge and growing untapped niche market in tshirt printing...we are not talking about screenprinter's bread and butter...schools, churches, sport teams,corporate accounts, promotional etc....to me servicing such customers is an "old school" business model better suited for screenprinting....The business model for a digital printers are designers, artists, photographers, small business and the multitude of people all over the world who would love 1 or 2 custom shirts for themselves or their friends....I look at each black shirt I create as a work of art and although I am able to charge top dollar almost as important is the look of joy on a customers face when he sees his artwork...his original design or the faces of his children on a garment.......To me this is what Digital printing is all about...
Justin let me know how many hugs of joy you will get when the customers sees his car on a shirt...oh and hands you $35 bucks.....careful my friend you might get hooked on retail


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## Fluid (Jun 20, 2005)

PinkFreud said:


> Well you guys whatever it is...it is what it is....regardless of the cost the bottom line is you guys own the real "cutting edge" machine in this industry....I have yet to see a compelling reason to invest in a Kornit at this time but I appreciate having a dialogue with the few people who have one...I think we can all agree that regarding digital garment printers it is your business model that is most important, not the machine....I have yet to see any concrete evidence that the business model where bulk wholesale printing on all colors is viable.....I feel that screenprinting has this market covered. The t-shirt market is growing everyday...and it is evolving....Starbucks sells one cup of coffee at a time...they dont wholesale to other coffee distributors (ok maybe they do but humor me)....I feel that there is a huge and growing untapped niche market in tshirt printing...we are not talking about screenprinter's bread and butter...schools, churches, sport teams,corporate accounts, promotional etc....to me servicing such customers is an "old school" business model better suited for screenprinting....The business model for a digital printers are designers, artists, photographers, small business and the multitude of people all over the world who would love 1 or 2 custom shirts for themselves or their friends....I look at each black shirt I create as a work of art and although I am able to charge top dollar almost as important is the look of joy on a customers face when he sees his artwork...his original design or the faces of his children on a garment.......To me this is what Digital printing is all about...
> Justin let me know how many hugs of joy you will get when the customers sees his car on a shirt...oh and hands you $35 bucks.....careful my friend you might get hooked on retail


 agree 100%


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## zoom_monster (Sep 20, 2006)

Justin, 
for perspective only, On our M&R automatic, with 2 operators and one at the end of the dryer,with Setups (charging "cost" on 6 setups X front and back... and having a second double set up for the kiddies....24 total), I see where I could charge $6 and still have about a buck a shirt left for the retirement fund at the end of the DAY(less than a day)after paying lease, labor and overhead. Understand this would be a bid price not the normal margin even on a wholesale job. Labor has got to be your biggest factor and you are spreading this over a week? I applaud you for testing the waters, but I think you should get that extra buck or 2 or three. By the way, a "normal charge" for one of our clients that does 10K or more a month would be $6.90, (3.90 on their dropshipped shirts) including the screens on this particular set up ( not nessasarily the seps). I'm saying all this with total respect. I've also taken a couple of 100+ print orders just to see where the economies of scale lie, but at least for time being, my direct to garment machine will work where its strengths are.


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## Justin Walker (Dec 6, 2006)

PinkFreud said:


> careful my friend you might get hooked on retail


I sure hope so...


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## Alastair (Jun 22, 2007)

I'm a bit confused by this post. I assume that anyone that buys or leases a DTG has some sort of business sense - and therefore would do the math _before purchasing. _There's not much point in spending your kid's dinner money then realising your calculator was broken. Justin obviously had the work, did the math, got the Kornit, makes money, hooray. We did the same over in the UK with a Kiosk and we do at least 50 dark prints a day for $12 a shirt (isn't the exchange rate marvellous........). If my arms were long enough I'd pat myself on the back.


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## TahoeTomahawk (Apr 12, 2006)

I voted for production use, although I don't agree it's "great".
It would be nice to make MORE $$ with it, but it still can be done.


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## Printzilla (Mar 22, 2007)

Thanks for vote the alastair. At the rate of at least a thousand dark shirts a month, I would classify you as an upper level user! Always glad to hear from other successful users.


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## Justin Walker (Dec 6, 2006)

Alastair said:


> I'm a bit confused by this post. I assume that anyone that buys or leases a DTG has some sort of business sense - and therefore would do the math _before purchasing. _There's not much point in spending your kid's dinner money then realising your calculator was broken. Justin obviously had the work, did the math, got the Kornit, makes money, hooray. We did the same over in the UK with a Kiosk and we do at least 50 dark prints a day for $12 a shirt (isn't the exchange rate marvellous........). If my arms were long enough I'd pat myself on the back.


I am actually confused by THIS post. Are you referring to mine, or the main post with the poll? Be aware, that MOST people who own these machines do not print white ink. This is because, whether they do apt homework or not, there are unscrupulous salespeople out there who lie about white ink printing and make it out to be much easier and more reliable than it really is. Also, cheaper. I was on the phone with Fred the other day (from IProof - programmed the RIP for most DTG and Flexi machines, as well as others), and he did a 12x12 square of printing to figure out the actual cost of ink, and it reported around $3 worth of ink (it was just under $2.90 actually). Then you have to factor in about .50 for pretreatment, at LEAST 30% more for purges, head cleanings, and other Epson proprietary waste, etc. And this is not even taking into consideration wasted shirts and ink from inconsistency, etc.

Therefore, it is important for people to understand that you CAN make money with the white ink as it currently stands, but you need to be prepared with facts and numbers BEFORE you get into it, and distributors will not always give you those real numbers and facts. I think this was one of the main focuses of this post. I am a huge believer in truth in advertising. Lately, I have even been pushing KORNIT to change some of their claims regarding the machine, due to their inaccuracies. I think that no matter what machine you buy, you need to be given the straight scoop, not some sales spin.


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## JPD (Nov 8, 2006)

I couldn't vote, as there was no real choice for us. Add something that says, "White ink printing is possible, but I choose not to at this point until the process (ink, pretreatment, etc) is perfected" (the 4th choice comes close, but i don't believe it is terrible).

That being said, Justin is dead-on about the honesty part of the sales pitch. I was recently at the Printwear show in Long Beach and was standing next to a salesperson who was rattling on about how their machine could print 40 dark shirts an hours (using white ink underbase). He then went on to say that the machine was printing slow right then because it was "just warming up"!  Luckily, the person he was trying to sell to called him on his BS and walked away (if it was anyone from here, post up some details).

IMO, white ink printing works, but it takes time to do it right. Be aware of the time, charge accordingly and you'll be fine.

Eric


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## Printzilla (Mar 22, 2007)

JPD said:


> He then went on to say that the machine was printing slow right then because it was "just warming up"!



LOL! ROTFLMAO! Spill the beans...who was it?


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## zoom_monster (Sep 20, 2006)

......Well said Justin. For anyone who gets into this business (or any other), there is the optomistic best case and perhaps a realistic "real world" scenario. People who try to get you to buy, will always put the sizzle in the steak, but the only way to find out for sure what is "real" is to get in there yourself. I can see the method behind the "published" price for ink per shirt, it's not lying per se... but untill you quantify it in your world (your designs, your clients), you could be easily be giving it away on some jobs or working for free. Do not follow this stuff verbatim. The numbers can be way off depending on so many things. If I were to give someone a rule of thumb, I would say double it (published ink cost/shirt) and build your biz model around that. When you get your machine, document Labor, ink usage, waste, etc. and adjust your model from there. As you learn and become more efficient, you'll know how to price jobs for your profit.


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## Gunslinger (Aug 3, 2007)

Printzilla said:


> LOL! ROTFLMAO! Spill the beans...who was it?


LOLOLOL ... hmmm, could it have been the ... ummm ... T-Jet 3?!?!

The wife was there, as well. She had an annoying encounter with a T-Jet dealer. Not the sales person, who nodded in agreement that the machine had problems. Then, called the tech over, who "snippedly" stated the without taking the training classes in Arizona ... we would continue to have problems. Which is freakin' hilarious, since following the manuals and video training aren't even accurate, anymore, since the T-Jet 3 came out.

BTW, I finally solved my whites and lights fading after the first wash. They simply want two coats of paint. No messy, watered-down pre-treatment that doesn't work ... I can bang these out all day.


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## visionsp (Aug 1, 2007)

Does anyone do fulfillment wholesale on black on onsie, twosie, orders? What method would the best way to do black if you want to print on demand?


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## Rodney (Nov 3, 2004)

> Does anyone do fulfillment wholesale on black on onsie, twosie, orders?


"fulfillment wholesale" and "onsie, twosie orders" are sort two totally different animals.



> What method would the best way to do black if you want to print on demand?


Probably Direct to Garment if you liked the quality of how it looked. I would suggest checking out samples to see if it's something you would want to sell. For many people it is, for others it's not.


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## JPD (Nov 8, 2006)

I think gunslinger hit the "bullseye"!! 

Eric


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## visionsp (Aug 1, 2007)

Can you explain the difference for me please? 
Also if I could have you call me at some time Rodney or Jack to help educate me a little on DTG and Thermal transfer I would appreciate it.


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## zoom_monster (Sep 20, 2006)

Rodney said:


> "fulfillment wholesale" and "onsie, twosie orders" are sort two totally different animals


 
"fulfillment wholesale" my definition would be a stock design or a specific garment printed a set way that people order one by one from a company store or website. Normally on a "fullfilment program" a client come to me and says " I will sell 5000 shirts over this year, but I do not want them all at once. So I as a contract printer look at the job and say I'll deliver 400 shirts a month at a slightly higher price than if you had done them all at once. wether DTG would be good for this would depend on the number$ and the specific designs. It's _always_ cheaper to buy and print in bulk, but if a certain design doesn't sell well enough to pay for set-ups, screens and minimum charges... a direct to garment machine could be the ticket, because you don't have to committ to having dozens of a certan size printed and sitting on the shelf. 

A "onsie twosie" order to me would be one guy coming in to do a "gag" shirt or a grandma getting a picture of her G-kids, where there is only one set up for one shirt that may never get repeated. Inkjet printers, along with photo transfers are fantastic for this.


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## Rodney (Nov 3, 2004)

zoom_monster said:


> "fulfillment wholesale" my definition would be a stock design or a specific garment printed a set way that people order one by one from a company store or website. Normally on a "fullfilment program" a client come to me and says " I will sell 5000 shirts over this year, but I do not want them all at once. So I as a contract printer look at the job and say I'll deliver 400 shirts a month at a slightly higher price than if you had done them all at once. wether DTG would be good for this would depend on the number$ and the specific designs. It's _always_ cheaper to buy and print in bulk, but if a certain design doesn't sell well enough to pay for set-ups, screens and minimum charges... a direct to garment machine could be the ticket, because you don't have to committ to having dozens of a certan size printed and sitting on the shelf.
> 
> A "onsie twosie" order to me would be one guy coming in to do a "gag" shirt or a grandma getting a picture of her G-kids, where there is only one set up for one shirt that may never get repeated. Inkjet printers, along with photo transfers are fantastic for this.


Ian pretty much summed it up there 

The only thing I would add: another way to think of fulfillment is if you wanted to sell a particular t-shirt design (or designs) and you have an online store all setup, but you didn't want to store the printed t-shirts in your home or office. You didn't want to handle the shipping of the shirts or the customer service.

A fulfillment only company could warehouse the product and when you send them the order details, they would pull the printed t-shirt from your stock and ship it to where you say ship it.

A printing and fulfillment company would print the t-shirts as well as do the warehousing/fulfillment. Depending on the printing method they used, they would either print them on demand as you sent them orders (possible with DTG) or you would order the shirts and sizes to be printed in advance and they would store the printed t-shirts on the shelves (screen printing).


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## visionsp (Aug 1, 2007)

Thanks guys really appreciate it. Makes sense I just wasn't thinking cleary about the fulfillment. 

I am interested in someone who will print 1 or small quantities on demand for a reasonable wholesale price. This way we could offer more extensive designs and not have to inventory product and cash resources. 

Do you know of anyone who has a large stock of individual designs that we can use or that has a large variety of pre printed shirts on hand already that we can sell wholesale to our retail website? 

I would like to start doing something like Cafe Press. But I want it to our website, branding, and customer retention, etc. 

This is a great site, Rodneyk, thanks for all your help.


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## Rodney (Nov 3, 2004)

> Do you know of anyone who has a large stock of individual designs that we can use or that has a large variety of pre printed shirts on hand already that we can sell wholesale to our retail website?


You may want to try posting your questions as a separate thread. This thread is about printing DTG with white ink, so to keep it on topic and to get better responses for your question, it really should be its own thread.

You should also use our search features, so you can find answers to your question without having to post and wait for an answer.
http://www.t-shirtforums.com/search.php
http://www.t-shirtforums.com/tags/


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## YoDan (May 4, 2007)

Hello All
I vote yes as :
I have been printing/testing with White Ink for quite some time now and I honestly believe that if you go the extra effort with the maintenace you will enjoy the great results that I get 
*"HAPPY PRINTING"*


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## Printzilla (Mar 22, 2007)

Hello Dan - Welcome to this forum! Glad to see ya over here.


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## YoDan (May 4, 2007)

"THANKS"
*"HAPPY PRINTING"*


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## Hansca (Feb 5, 2007)

Justin Walker said:


> The trick is learning how to do it. It is like making high quality process screens in traditional printing - you don't buy some screens and emulsion and make a masterpiece your first day - it takes TIME. Most shops have entire rooms dedicated to making screens - entire DEPARTMENTS. If I ever switch to DuPont ink, I would develop and entire department JUST for pretreating shirts. I already have a room in my shop being built just for that.


 

Well put Justin, we print black/dark shirts regularly and have no real problems. It only took hours and hours and hours, research, practice, patience, learning etc. on and on..... And yes the production time is cut 3 fold, but worth it. We have a fully dedicated room for treatment as it all adds up to time with an organized shop willing to print production on dark garments. What I find interesting is when I quote a client what is a reasonable price for a print and they come back saying they can get it for half the price! I say go for it then, I know my real costs and times, and am not greedy. The guy printing at cost just to get the job won't be around long. 

Hansca


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## Printzilla (Mar 22, 2007)

The issue with pricing has changed now that the Kornit is out. The white ink is less than half the Dupont. That is why for runs over 12 shirts, that is what we use.

The guy printing at cost, even if he is around, will not be able to keep up with the advances in equipment.


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## Hansca (Feb 5, 2007)

That is what I was wondering... I would like to know the real costs on a Kornit, as we expand that may be the way we go. Of corse there will be a few more advances in the tech. I am sure in a year's time. At least that way I can ask the client if he knows the brand being used and know whether or not I have a chance to compete realistically. The client I had that response from was a 10" X 12" full color back print on black, 500 shirts. Nothing on the front. I quoted him $6.00. Him supplying the shirt. I think that is a fair price. Getting it done for $3-$3.50?

I don't see it happening....


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## Printzilla (Mar 22, 2007)

Kornit 100-125k depending on options. ours was in the middle.


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## Gunslinger (Aug 3, 2007)

Hansca said:


> That is what I was wondering... I would like to know the real costs on a Kornit, as we expand that may be the way we go. Of corse there will be a few more advances in the tech. I am sure in a year's time. At least that way I can ask the client if he knows the brand being used and know whether or not I have a chance to compete realistically. The client I had that response from was a 10" X 12" full color back print on black, 500 shirts. Nothing on the front. I quoted him $6.00. Him supplying the shirt. I think that is a fair price. Getting it done for $3-$3.50?
> 
> I don't see it happening....


More than a fair price, we charge $8.40 (anything over 200).


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## Justin Walker (Dec 6, 2006)

$3.00-$3.50? I am one of the lower priced digital printers out there, and I would not likely dip below $5 (not including garment) on any quantity for darks.


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