# Is this an acceptable print?



## fapwear (Nov 18, 2009)

We just had some shirts printed locally and I'll admit I'm not an expert but the quality of the print seems questionable 

I thought I'd ask the experts before I brought it to the printers attention just to make sure I'm not out of line.

What do you guys think? Sure seems like alot of "noise"...other shirts we've had printed don't look like this but they don't have yellow ink either.


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## RSG (Dec 17, 2009)

In my shop I would say no. I have seen a lot worse. Check your off contact and screen tension.


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## wonubee (Oct 2, 2007)

I'm only a garage shop with cheap equipment and I wouldn't send that. I mean maybe one or two might get by but I wouldn't print that or send that. Sometimes I get the fibers like in the bottom image when I print large white areas but I never get the holes like in the top two images.


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## alan802 (Mar 24, 2008)

The hairy fibers in the last pic are common and if you ever look at t-shirts in the grocery store and mall kiosks, you'll see that on damn near every shirt. It used to happen in our shop a lot years ago when our underbases weren't sufficient in matting the fibers. A long-bodied ink works better for matting the fibers but short-bodied whites seem to be the norm out there these days. They are easier to print and most of us like that instead of the gummy, stretchy whites that matt down better. It's a catch 22, and I guess you can't have it all.

Out of all the prints I've seen and done, I don't think I've ever seen a print with that many tiny holes in it like the first couple of pics.


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## mariuszb79 (Mar 3, 2009)

no, that print is not good. Why would they print Yellow on top of Blue, what they should have done is not print underneath the yellow, it would look much better and the graphic wouldn't be as heavy. This shirt print looks really heavy. I would bring it back.


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## fapwear (Nov 18, 2009)

RSG said:


> In my shop I would say no. I have seen a lot worse. Check your off contact and screen tension.


We did not print these ourselves so unfortunately its not something we can adjust.

We had shirts printed by another shop prior and none of them had this amount of fiber or any of the holes. The entire design is covered in this on ALL the shirts.

If this is considered just "OK" quality then we definitely need to send these back. That's not acceptable for a shirt that retails at $23 IMO


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## snackdaddy185 (May 17, 2008)

Did they use high opacity ink with no underbase? Print is so thick.


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## DanielJay (Jan 14, 2009)

In the 3rd pic, that is how my prints are coming out as well. It is really starting to annoy me as I dont know how to fix it and obviously cant sell a shirt that looks like that. I really cant do anything about screen tension becausee I buy my screens already stretched. Should I maybe be checking and rechecking the off contact?


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## Skiddem (Apr 11, 2009)

That printer used the wrong ink. They printed yellow multiple times with no underbase in order to achieve the color without making two screens. Long story short, they cut corners. No underbase is fine if you have the proper yellow that doesn't require it but apparently they didn't.


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## snackdaddy185 (May 17, 2008)

What mesh are you using? Are u using an underbase?


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## red514 (Jul 21, 2009)

i agree with Skiddem, looks like no underbase and they layered on the yellow ink. Poor quality printing.
This would not be acceptable to me for a shirt that retails at 23$.


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## fapwear (Nov 18, 2009)

Skiddem said:


> That printer used the wrong ink. They printed yellow multiple times with no underbase in order to achieve the color without making two screens. Long story short, they cut corners. No underbase is fine if you have the proper yellow that doesn't require it but apparently they didn't.


Would printing these using water based ink yield better results?


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## snackdaddy185 (May 17, 2008)

If you can't have them re printed you can try to put them in a heat press to make them look and feel smoother.


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## Rodney (Nov 3, 2004)

fapwear said:


> Would printing these using water based ink yield better results?


Quick question: What specific results (look and feel) are you looking to achieve with the prints?

Did you communicate those specifics with the printer before the order to see if they could produce the quality you want?


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## fapwear (Nov 18, 2009)

We were just looking for a standard screen printed design. We didn't get into specifics about look and feel. My only real issue with the shirts are the amount of fiber and holes in the print.

The reason I mentioned water based ink was because of the comments about the lack of underbase and thick design. We were not expecting a water based ink feel initially if that's why you're asking...


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## thutch15 (Sep 8, 2008)

snackdaddy185 said:


> If you can't have them re printed you can try to put them in a heat press to make them look and feel smoother.


I agree, if you have them put these in a heat press that will probably fix the problems... HOWEVER I would request that the printer do this and if they do not look perfect after that then they should be giving you the shirts for free or reprint.

I to think that if an underbase was used then it could have been a lot thinner of a print. I sometime will have a random shirt that will have fibers showing or not get the screen cleared which will cause a little hole, but on those random shirts I will just press and they turn out great.

Good luck!


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## oldbox (Apr 25, 2010)

I have to admit I've sold a lot worse, but like said, it's not a quality job and tell that to printer - shirts are not throw away bad, but some discount or something would be in place ...


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## Rodney (Nov 3, 2004)

fapwear said:


> We were just looking for a standard screen printed design. We didn't get into specifics about look and feel. My only real issue with the shirts are the amount of fiber and holes in the print.
> 
> The reason I mentioned water based ink was because of the comments about the lack of underbase and thick design. We were not expecting a water based ink feel initially if that's why you're asking...


Thanks for the clarification 

From your waterbased question, I thought you might have been expecting a print with less feel.

Have you talked to the printer yet about the fiber and holes? What did they have to say?

I think I've ordered t-shirts before that came out like that, but I didn't realize that there was something wrong with them. That was before I learned about all the different ways a screen printed t-shirt can look. I sold them just fine (and had reorders). 

I don't think most "end customers" would know there's something wrong with the print. As mentioned above, there are many t-shirts in stores that look like that (or worse). I think as designers (and printers), we may see things that actual end user customers don't see or care about.

As long as the print doesn't fade, crack, wash off, most end customers are delighted with it. More savvy customers may take a second look at the print.


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## fapwear (Nov 18, 2009)

Haven't spoken to them yet, will though. I wanted to get opinions of those familiar with the process first as we are new to the t-shirt world.

And I'm sure the shirts will sell as is and the customer might not notice or care but I don't know that I would be willing to back a product that is not up to my own personal expectations.

I will bring up what was mentioned in this thread and see what they have to say.

Thanks guys.


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## TshirtGuru (Jul 9, 2008)

That is a bad print period. I've never ever seen a shirt with holes like that. Curious, did you go with this printer because of they offered the lowest price?


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## fapwear (Nov 18, 2009)

TshirtGuru said:


> That is a bad print period. I've never ever seen a shirt with holes like that. Curious, did you go with this printer because of they offered the lowest price?


yes that and they promised a faster turn around time

the printer actually has a line of their own and supposedly prints for 35 other brands so I figured we'd be fine


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## OTFINC (Mar 24, 2009)

Im using all single color prints with no underbase. none of my prints come out looking like that. Im not sure how they are printing. It almost looks like they are not clearing their screen properly. Which could be from improper off contact. And the fibers explained to me when i had the problem: "is called fibrosis and is caused by pressing to hard when you pull the ink"


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## TshirtGuru (Jul 9, 2008)

Lesson to be learned here, cheapest and fastest is not always best. And as for them printing 35 other lines, bs.


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## TshirtGuru (Jul 9, 2008)

OTFINC said:


> Im using all single color prints with no underbase. none of my prints come out looking like that. Im not sure how they are printing. It almost looks like they are not clearing their screen properly. Which could be from improper off contact. And the fibers explained to me when i had the problem: "is called fibrosis and is caused by pressing to hard when you pull the ink"


fibers that usually puff up after a wash is called fibrillation.


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## OTFINC (Mar 24, 2009)

ya but these hairs are happening before wash.


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## contractprinter (Jan 5, 2006)

fapwear said:


> We just had some shirts printed locally and I'll admit I'm not an expert but the quality of the print seems questionable
> 
> I thought I'd ask the experts before I brought it to the printers attention just to make sure I'm not out of line.
> 
> ...


a lot of people answered your question. i have a question that i am curious about. what kind of printer did this? do they have a business license. do they have a reputation? do they guarantee their work?


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## fapwear (Nov 18, 2009)

it is a successful brand which also owns a print shop and prints for several other lines

we didn't get into the legalities of it all. they are a local brand so that is how we connected.


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## out da box (May 1, 2007)

Bad flash technique.... too hot/ too long.


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## RRC Tees (Jun 5, 2007)

You need to check the fabric you are printing on as well. Thickness would be a personal judgement and you would have to inspect it personally. Pics give false impressions. Quality of the print depends on the customer, we have customers who would love some things and others that nit pick at the jobs. It is a given that you can achieve, a thin even coated print. I did see that the fabric of the shirts doesn't help, it seems pretty fuzzy to me. There should have been a communication between the printer and customer concerning the fabric and the print outcome that would achieved. You can do a number of things to correct the grain that you see in your prints. I have seen BAD prints that sell for way more than the 23 dollars you are asking for your tees. Just my two cents


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## contractprinter (Jan 5, 2006)

fapwear said:


> it is a successful brand which also owns a print shop and prints for several other lines
> 
> we didn't get into the legalities of it all. they are a local brand so that is how we connected.


If they are that reputable, go talk to them. I will always try to make the customer happy. if you paid them for a quality shirt and print, thats what you should get


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## fapwear (Nov 18, 2009)

so we spoke to them...basically since we did not discuss the finish we were looking for beforehand they will not fix the shirts. apparently we have to specify that we don't want holes and mass amount of fibers in our print 

they did re-do our tags though since the first time around they cut the manufacturer tags instead of removing them.

question though...would anyone be willing to fix these? if so, what kind of risk would we be taking by having them run through a heat press as suggested?


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## mikelmorgan (Nov 1, 2008)

I would say cut you losses. Find a reputable printer and demand quality. If your printer will not stand behind his work find another one, period. It is shame that local printer will produce quality like this and be satisfied with it. Most customer don't know the difference and keep these guys in business. Demand better and don't settle for anything less. If your printer is OK, with this quality find someone else. Mind you it may cost a little more. You get what you pay for.


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## red514 (Jul 21, 2009)

i never understood that excuse and still don't 
"well you didn't ask for a good quality print". 
really? that's the excuse?!?! come on, take pride in your work people!


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## Almond_Blossom (Jun 2, 2010)

I have a question here based on some of the above comments. What is the "right ink" or "wrong ink". Does a high opacity plastisol always require an underbase? Is there a good guide somewhere to "ink selection"?


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## mikelmorgan (Nov 1, 2008)

Everything is relevant to everything else. Shirt quality, mesh count, under coat, ... It all depends on what look your looking for.


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## thedeadpress (Mar 12, 2009)

Maybe they do print for many other lines and normally supply quality work but they were busy and you pushed too hard on price and timescale that they either did'nt have time to fix any issues or thought f%ck it as they weren't making any money anyway.

I'm not justifying the quality as you should always be able to stand behind the work you put out and this is obviously below par but customers can put you under alot of pressure to meet unrealistic deadlines for silly prices.


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## Markolis (Jun 10, 2010)

That's certainly not acceptable. They may have layered on several thick coats of yellow and possibly did not flash properly between coats because I've seen like colors done with no underbase and while it was a less than optimal result IMO sans undercoat, it wasn't as bad as those pics.


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## LKent (Jun 25, 2007)

I did prints with wilflex super drake red with no underbase on dark shirts and came out pretty good. wasnt fuzzy like that....nice smooth feel with no fibers sticking up.


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## foot print (Jun 2, 2010)

i can't believe they told that you didn't specify what quality you wanted..my rule of thumb is..If i won't wear it neither will my customer.


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## LKent (Jun 25, 2007)

how about taking a sample of what you do want to the printer and show them thats what a standard print looks like


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## fapwear (Nov 18, 2009)

vuego100 said:


> Maybe they do print for many other lines and normally supply quality work but they were busy and you pushed too hard on price and timescale that they either did'nt have time to fix any issues or thought f%ck it as they weren't making any money anyway.
> 
> I'm not justifying the quality as you should always be able to stand behind the work you put out and this is obviously below par but customers can put you under alot of pressure to meet unrealistic deadlines for silly prices.


they are the ones that promised a faster turnaround time and cheaper price...we certainly did not pressure them FYI. 

from my business partner that was actually at their shop...he said normally they print on heavyweight tees and with us bringing in american apparel, they may have just been inexperienced with a lightweight tee. he said the heavyweight tees they printed on looked just fine.


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## foot print (Jun 2, 2010)

ok i will give them just a tad bit of credit..for some odd reason American Apparel does print a little fuzzy..the AA sweatshirts are a real pain..but i have found that if you soften the white and print is with a 200 mesh count screen the results are actually nice...


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## Markolis (Jun 10, 2010)

vuego100 said:


> I'm not justifying the quality as you should always be able to stand behind the work you put out and this is obviously below par but customers can put you under alot of pressure to meet unrealistic deadlines for silly prices.


I agree on both counts. It is true that customers sometimes put vendors under pressure to meet unrealistic goals (which doesn't seem to be the case here). Still, if the job is not doable, the vendor should say no rather than do a bad job.


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## gilberto (May 15, 2007)

I would say no but if you have a heat press, you can try that. I've done it before with success but only on none detailed prints. It's worth it if you can save a few.


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## whimsywhit (May 25, 2009)

We print on a lot of the American Apparel and Alternative tees, and you really have to thin the ink down and use a thin underbase. If you have white that shows in the art, use a white highlight screen. The worst kind of tees are those really cheap ones from overseas... I can't remember the name of them for the life of me. I've seen this type of print a lot, and have actually printed tees that look like this after the customer requested that the yellow be as bright as possible but didn't want to pay for the underbase. They then complained about the thickness of the ink, so we printed the yellow just once (maybe twice, I don't remember), which of course didn't produce the "pop" they were looking for, and again I suggested an underbase, which they didn't want to pay for. On the third setup, I printed the underbase anyway, without telling them or charging them, and getting the result they wanted. To this day, they don't know I used an underbase, but after printing their job three times, I had already lost all profit on the job and just wanted them to be happy and go away. 
As far as the holes go, that just appears to be printing too fast with not enough pressure, and the ink not drying between swipes. And the ink is too thick.


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## PrintsCharming (Jan 21, 2009)

snackdaddy185 said:


> Did they use high opacity ink with no underbase? Print is so thick.


seriously. looks like they flashed the yellow a bunch of times on a low mesh count. so much that it looks like hi density ink. that fiber look happens alot when printers avoid using an underbase. Or off contact is off.


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## msneat13 (Jun 17, 2010)

I am new to the business, only been in business since April 2010 and I would never let that come out of my shop. You need to talk to the printer and let them know you are not happy.


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## LKent (Jun 25, 2007)

maybe consider automatically including underbasing in the price for dark shirts would be better. i learn when you give people too many options they tend to get all screwy..just choose for them and charge accordingly. also keep a sample of one without and tell them this is the results of being a cheapo..


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## fapwear (Nov 18, 2009)

LKent said:


> maybe consider automatically including underbasing in the price for dark shirts would be better. i learn when you give people too many options they tend to get all screwy..just choose for them and charge accordingly. also keep a sample of one without and tell them this is the results of being a cheapo..


I would prefer this as a customer actually. Just tell me what needs to be done to get it the way I want it and how much.


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## whimsywhit (May 25, 2009)

It is more with a regular customer of ours, who has ordered several times. He wants a soft hand, but wants the colors bright. Is there really a middle ground to achieve both? Bc I haven't found it yet.


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## alan802 (Mar 24, 2008)

whimsywhit said:


> It is more with a regular customer of ours, who has ordered several times. He wants a soft hand, but wants the colors bright. Is there really a middle ground to achieve both? Bc I haven't found it yet.


It's all so subjective so there are basically so many different ways to analyze a print. My middle ground might not be even close to another printers just down the street. And then add customers who don't have any idea what goes into printing shirts and an award winning print can get a not so warm reception. Over the years I have seen some of the best prints that have come out of our shop get criticized by a dumb customer who has no idea what they are looking at. Then we've had to print things that weren't condusive to screen printing on a tee shirt that looked like hell and the customer loves them. It's a crap shoot and just when you think you have found that middle ground, and everything looks perfect, the customer will refuse them.


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## cardege1 (May 12, 2010)

Yeah that is not acceptable from my shop. It looks like they put on 2 or 3 coats of ink. They should have used a underbase and then printed on top of that. It seems as they are new to the business. I would definately send these shirts back. Print looks real heavy.


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## cardege1 (May 12, 2010)

This would not be acceptable from my shop. Looks like they did not use a underbase for this project and just printed and flashed several times. The holes most likely happened as he was printing then flashed and not giving the design enough drying time and then printed right on top making it stick to the screen. that happens when you cut corner and dont make the second screen with the under base. Let us know if we can help.


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## Almond_Blossom (Jun 2, 2010)

What is the difference between an underbase followed by print and a double print with flash in between? Are you just concerend about white-yellow rather than yellow-yellow? If the yellow was a high opacity ink (and yellow is already pretty light) should this even matter?


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## mikelmorgan (Nov 1, 2008)

Almond_Blossom said:


> What is the difference between an underbase followed by print and a double print with flash in between? Are you just concerend about white-yellow rather than yellow-yellow? If the yellow was a high opacity ink (and yellow is already pretty light) should this even matter?


This is something you need to experiment for your self to see the difference. There is a difference.


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