# The Right Printer to start



## thatguy66 (May 3, 2011)

Hey all! I've been thinking about getting into dyesub, strictly mugs at the moment. 11oz. and 15oz. etc. 

Thinking about going with the Artainium Inks

But the main concern is the printer I should start with. 

The workforce 30 caught my attention because of it affordability. However, you get what you pay for and I have some concerns. 
- do these clog easy
- are they durable
- how do they print 
ETC.

So in short, the workforce 30? stylus c88?

Will they give me what I need to get started and with good results?

Also, I seen a bunch of comments on getting the color profiles dialed in a what not...how are you supposed to set these up to get quality, bright, consistent prints? 

Looking forward to the responses! 

Thanks,
Anthony


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## Riderz Ready (Sep 18, 2008)

Just keep in mind printers do NOT clog. How many times has your desktop printer clog? Personally I have never had a desktop printer clog using standard ink.

There is only one thing that causes a printer to clog - poor quality ink. Unfortunately you have few choices just starting out - Ricoh or Epson. Doesn't matter which one you purchase you will still have to print at least a test print everyday to reduce the clogging caused by Sawgrass ink.


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## thatguy66 (May 3, 2011)

Thanks for the info Riderz, never thought about that. What do you think about the printers though and what are some other ink choices?


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## Riderz Ready (Sep 18, 2008)

thatguy66 said:


> Thanks for the info Riderz, never thought about that. What do you think about the printers though and what are some other ink choices?


You really do not have choices as a desktop user. It is either Ricoh or Epson and Sawgrass. You just need to burn a little ink each day to keep their ink from damaging printers. The other thing I would suggest to any new dye sub person is to find a vendor you like. Johnson Plastics and Conde post quite a bit on this forum. Dye sub is part science and part art. You will really need some hand holding for awhile.

Best of luck


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## pisquee (Jan 8, 2012)

Sawgrass inks (Artanium, Sublijet, Rotech) are not the only options when it comes to feeding inks into an Epson inkjet printer. There are other manufacturers making better quality inks. There are plenty of reports of how Sawgrass' own brand inks are not good quality and prone to clogging issues.


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## thatguy66 (May 3, 2011)

I stumbled upon Conde's website and will probably get the supplies through there. As far as the other ink manufactures go, who are they and what kind of prices are we talking cartridge wise?

Will the workforce 30 or C88 be ok to start out with? Or should I save up for say the stylus 1400?


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## Riderz Ready (Sep 18, 2008)

There is few that are as anti Sawgrass as I am. The issue is very simple. Being new to dye sub you are going to have issues, it is part of the learning curve. You are going to need a Johnson Plastics, Conde, or ??? during this process to create professional results. Going out on ebay and piece mealing a dye sub system together almost insures failure or at least a much longer and costly learning curve. 

To be frank for people doing mugs the cost of ink is nothing. It is not even a factor unless you are doing 1000's. 

Being new I would buy everything from one vendor and let them assist you in learning process. You start piecing a system together you basically will have no where to turn when issues arise. Once you have a solid understanding of the process venture out and look for ways to cut your cost.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

thatguy66 said:


> Hey all! I've been thinking about getting into dyesub, strictly mugs at the moment. 11oz. and 15oz. etc.
> 
> Thinking about going with the Artainium Inks
> 
> ...


Epson printers and Ricoh printers even with OEM (factory) pigment inks can and do clog if you don't print frequently. Pigments are particles "suspended" in a fluid, these particles can clump. 

If you don't print frequently with these printers no matter if using Epsons inks or somebody elses inks you will get banding and clogs, guaranted.

I have had Epson C86, C88, C88+, WF40, R2400, and a Stylus Pro 4880 and ran Epson OEM pigment ink in all these. They can and will clog with infrequent use. I also had a Ricoh G500 using only Ricoh inks and it would band and clog as well if you didn't print frequently.

I had a older model Epson OEM dye based 4 color printer many years ago and didn't have any clogs or bands if I didn't print for a few weeks. Same with HP, Canon, and Lexmark dye based ink printers I have in the family for casual printing. But none of these sat for months and months without printing. Dye inks are 100% water soluble and no particles like pigments. 

Sublimation inks are also particle based and will clog desktop printers if not printing frequently.

I agree that you should at least buy your inks, papers, and substrates from somewhere that you can get a profile, graphic application setup support, pressing instructions etc. if you are starting out. 

However, I recommend you educate yourself first on what printer that _you_ want to buy ... and don't go ask a Sawgrass vendor first "what printer should I buy" before you have decided what you need. Based on the numerous Ricoh horror stories here it is my opinion that some of the dealers have done a *poor* job of matching users to systems.

Next you need to decide if you want a CIS or do refillable carts and buy your inks in bulks. Most of the Sawgrass vendors don't offer the refillable carts option, even though you can still get Artanium inks in bulk and refill your own carts. 

Sawgrass does not offer refillable carts, they would rather you pay $5 - $6 *per page* using their _prefilled_ but not refillable carts, or buy their CIS ink bag system.

So decide what printer and how you wish to deliver your inks into that printer _first_, then find a good vendor. 

You don't have to buy your printer and ink delivery system from where you buy your inks, papers and substrates to get setup for your profile and graphic apps. And this setup info and profiles are readily available on the Sawgrass website as well as the various mainstream vendors. 

Setup and profile support and ink deliver support does not have to come from a single place, many of us don't use the limited Sawgrass ink delivery options. But you would need to learn to refill your own inks or CIS from a different vendor if you don't buy a "canned" Sawgrass solution. 

Large format sublimation makes more sense for 1 stop shopping, the problem with desktop "1 stop shopping" is that many of the Sawgrass vendors hardsell you (sometimes scare you) on what _they_ want to sell you ($$) and how _they_ wish for you to do your ink delivery. 

You can get an Epson on sale direct or at Staples etc much cheaper than from a Sawgrass dealer in most cases. And some of the aftermarket ink dealers that don't sell sublimation inks have a wider variety of carts and CIS much better than Sawgrass, and at much lower prices.

I suggest that you avoid sublimating with more than 4 colors, it is all you need for good quality and more colors just means more expense, ink waste, and more possibility for banding and clogs since there are more print heads involved.

CIS has advantage of less refilling than refillable carts, however, they are more complex than carts and can be more problematic at times. You can always upgrade your printer later to CIS. Refillable carts are very inexpensive and you can buy a backup set as well. Keep in mind starting out you are not likely to print as much as you think you will until you are established.


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## spiderx1 (Oct 12, 2009)

Great post and right on. Yes Virginia printers do clogg!


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

Forgot to add my WF1100 to my Epson list, great printer BTW.


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## Riderz Ready (Sep 18, 2008)

Being new I strongly suggest you buy from one place. It makes zero sense not to as most important the products they all offer are basically the same as are the prices. Being that you are doing mugs there is very little if any you can save by flopping to one place for ink, one place paper, etc. When you buy ink from one place, paper from another, substrates from another and have issues being new who are you going to call to resolve your issues? Once you have experience venture out and experiment.

As far as large format - anyone with any knowledge knows that not only does it make zero sense for large format users to one stop shop it is virtually impossible.


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## Bigbaby (Mar 3, 2008)

I had a lot of problems with the epson. I flushed a lot of money down the drain because of the clogs I was also using the harvey head cleaner which would run a minimal print every day automatically and I still got clogs with the epson. Now I just use my epson as a regular printer and it works fine. I just recently ordered the ricoh so we'll see how this goes. It should be here in a couple of days.


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## Malpeque (Dec 21, 2011)

You do not need the 1400 unless your planning on printing items larger then 8.5 x 14.I was using a 1400 put have just switched back to a C88 because it was cheaper for me to buy the printer and refillable carts & 75 mil of ink each colour then just to buy ink alone for the 1400


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

Riderz Ready said:


> Being new I strongly suggest you buy from one place. It makes zero sense not to as most important the products they all offer are basically the same as are the prices. Being that you are doing mugs there is very little if any you can save by* flopping to one place for ink, one place paper*, etc. *When you buy ink from one place, paper from another, substrates from another and have issues being new who are you going to call to resolve your issues?* Once you have experience venture out and experiment.
> 
> As far as large format - anyone with any knowledge knows that not only does it make zero sense for large format users to one stop shop it is virtually impossible.


I didn't suggest as you stated that one starting out buy inks and papers and substrates from different places. I stated that printers and ink delivery systems don't have to come from one place. It is cheaper to buy a desktop printer from a traditional source and then if you want a desktop refillable cart option then Sawgrass dealers don't offer those by and large.

my quote

*"I agree that you should at least buy your inks, papers, and substrates from somewhere that you can get a profile, graphic application setup support, pressing instructions etc. if you are starting out." *

That does not state get your papers from one place, your inks from another, your substrates from another place.  *That dog don't hunt.*

I do know that for large format Conde and some others sells offer everything you could need to do large format as one stop shopping. >42 inch printer, RIP, paper, inks, substrates, support, larger presses ... everything, unless you are sewing, not all large format users are cut and sew, so it may be virtually imposssible for you. *So that dog don't hunt either.*


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## Riderz Ready (Sep 18, 2008)

mgparrish said:


> I didn't suggest as you stated that one starting out buy inks and papers and substrates from different places. I stated that printers and ink delivery systems don't have to come from one place. It is cheaper to buy a desktop printer from a traditional source and then if you want a desktop refillable cart option then Sawgrass dealers don't offer those by and large.
> 
> my quote
> 
> ...


You know next to zero when it comes to large format. The number one advantage to large format is the ability not to buy Sawgrass ink. I know it and even you know it. The vast majority of large format businesses operate in a production environment and buy from multiple sources, in many cases direct from the manufacture, as they do not need the hand holding a Johnson Plastic or Conde offers. 

When speaking of large format you need to keep your dog on the porch as your information is without experience or knowledge. It would be like a large format telling you how to sell mouse pads to friends and family.


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## jpkevin (Oct 22, 2007)

You make very good points. However, a beginner and someone that has a lot of sublimation and printer experience need to go at it differently in my opinion. If someone is just starting in sublimation and needs technical support, it is very hard to accomplish that with piecemeal setup. As you know through your own experience, to diagnose problems, you have to break down all the variables. Ink, printer, cartridge or bulk system, software, environment. For example, we have all the equipment we sell, set up and running in our office, so that we can try to duplicate symptoms and problems our customers may be having to problem solve them. That would be impossible with a mixed system, so the person would need to be self supported.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

Riderz Ready said:


> You know next to zero when it comes to large format. The number one advantage to large format is the ability not to buy Sawgrass ink. I know it and even you know it. The vast majority of large format businesses operate in a production environment and buy from multiple sources, in many cases direct from the manufacture, as they do not need the hand holding a Johnson Plastic or Conde offers.
> 
> When speaking of large format you need to keep your dog on the porch as your information is without experience or knowledge. It would be like a large format telling you how to sell mouse pads to friends and family.


But you said it is virtually impossible, so now it is virtually impossible unless you buy Sawgrass inks? 

Always morphing your argument when you can't defend it.

There are no large format vendors that sell non Sawgrass inks that offer everything you need? Printers, RIPS, Non SG sub inks, papers, substrates?

I know several.

Dye Sublimation Ink, Paper, Printers, Support and Training

Graphics One - Your Imaging Partner

Sublimating with large format printers = printers, inks, paper, software, substrates, heat presses.

Sublimating with desktop printers = printers, inks, paper, software, substrates, heat presses.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

jpkevin said:


> You make very good points. However, a beginner and someone that has a lot of sublimation and printer experience need to go at it differently in my opinion. If someone is just starting in sublimation and needs technical support, it is very hard to accomplish that with piecemeal setup. As you know through your own experience, to diagnose problems, you have to break down all the variables. Ink, printer, cartridge or bulk system, software, environment. For example, we have all the equipment we sell, set up and running in our office, so that we can try to duplicate symptoms and problems our customers may be having to problem solve them. That would be impossible with a mixed system, so the person would need to be self supported.


Kevin, I respect you but your opinion is biased to the fact that you are a dealer.

You only sell "Sawgrass approved" ink delivery, you would rather someone buy your ink delivery products so you make the sale and not someone else, and from a support side you would rather not have to deal with someone elses ink delivery system that you can't support.

Yes all sub users starting out need support, but if your inks are clogged it's not because of your software or your press dwell time. If someone is not smart enough to figure that out they should not be sublimating.

Setting up for color and graphic apps and diagnosing a clog problem are not really related.

Most people are smart enough to figure out that if you heads are clogged it's not a profile problem or a Photoshop problem or a dwell time problem. Same reason I don't have to go to the car dealer when I need tires. If my radiator is leaking I don't go to the tire dealer or blame him either for the leak.

Sorry but I stand by my statement that all users should educate themselves first before purchasing anything from a Sawgrass dealer, that's why we have forums. I'm not saying don't buy from a Sawgrass dealer, I am saying you have limited options if you do, and you should know and understand what other options are available to you. SG dealers don't inform users of ink delivery options outside their offerings.

Just because for the most part they _have to_ buy Sawgrass inks due to a monopoly doesn't mean they have to be forced to buy a Sawgrass CIS, or a $5 - $6 per page print cost from those prefilled carts, or a Ricoh were they have to say their prayers every night hoping the motherboard doesn't fry.

One can buy a Cobra CIS or refillable carts setup and get the same good level of support that you and JP offers. And they can count on you for color problems in their graphic app, pressing, and substrates problems if they buy your inks paper, software, presses and substrates.


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## Riderz Ready (Sep 18, 2008)

jpkevin said:


> You make very good points. However, a beginner and someone that has a lot of sublimation and printer experience need to go at it differently in my opinion. If someone is just starting in sublimation and needs technical support, it is very hard to accomplish that with piecemeal setup. As you know through your own experience, to diagnose problems, you have to break down all the variables. Ink, printer, cartridge or bulk system, software, environment. For example, we have all the equipment we sell, set up and running in our office, so that we can try to duplicate symptoms and problems our customers may be having to problem solve them. That would be impossible with a mixed system, so the person would need to be self supported.


100% Dead On


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## Riderz Ready (Sep 18, 2008)

mgparrish said:


> But you said it is virtually impossible, so now it is virtually impossible unless you buy Sawgrass inks?
> 
> Always morphing your argument when you can't defend it.
> 
> ...



You know zero about large format and large format companies. Your continued attempts to prove otherwise are laughable. Please you only continue to embarrass yourself trying so hard to continue this "I know everything about everything". It is ok to defer to others that actually have experience on a subject that you have no experience or knowledge. Just as an FYI - the majority of large format users are not dealing with your substrates. They are dealing with fabric. Are there a couple t-shirt crushers only out there? Maybe - but I do not know of them. Another FYI - unlike those that make mouse pads and mugs for family and friends when you are in a production environment cost is everything. We reduced our cost 50%+ by sourcing products needed in the process. The difference is I come at this from a day to day business stand point and you thrive on simply trying to find the exception to the general rules businesses are ran. Stay on the porch.


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## Riderz Ready (Sep 18, 2008)

mgparrish said:


> Kevin, I respect you but your opinion is biased to the fact that you are a dealer.
> 
> You only sell "Sawgrass approved" ink delivery, you would rather someone buy your ink delivery products so you make the sale and not someone else, and from a support side you would rather not have to deal with someone elses ink delivery system that you can't support.
> 
> ...


For those of you that do not know Kevin at Johnson Plastics and have not dealt with him professionally let me say that he is one of the stand up guys in this business. His customer service and knowledge is over the top.

Kevin, on several occasions, has actually pointed out products or methods to accomplish tasks that in fact took a few dollars out of his pockets. 

I would highly recommend anyone looking to jump into this market to talk to Kevin. He understands that by serving his customers needs that he serves the needs of Johnson Plastic.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

Riderz Ready said:


> You know zero about large format and large format companies. Your continued attempts to prove otherwise are laughable. Please you only continue to embarrass yourself trying so hard to continue this "I know everything about everything". It is ok to defer to others that actually have experience on a subject that you have no experience or knowledge. Just as an FYI - the majority of large format users are not dealing with your substrates. They are dealing with fabric. Are there a couple t-shirt crushers only out there? Maybe - but I do not know of them. Another FYI - unlike those that make mouse pads and mugs for family and friends when you are in a production environment cost is everything. We reduced our cost 50%+ by sourcing products needed in the process. The difference is I come at this from a day to day business stand point and you thrive on simply trying to find the exception to the general rules businesses are ran. Stay on the porch.


Your ad hominem attacks fail. Your arguments are always expanding into area that are not related to the discussion.

When you state ... 

"It is ok to defer to others that actually have experience on a subject that you have no experience or knowledge."

It is you that lack experience and knowledge on the desktop, otherwise your statement 

Quote 

"Just keep in mind printers do NOT clog. How many times has your desktop printer clog?"

proves just that.

I have a 4880, that may not be a 42 inch printer but it is not a desktop, it operates very much like larger Epson printers do, in fact Epson calls my 4880 a "wdie format". It is Sawgrass that calls "wide format" >42.

I'm not doing "wide format" sublimation, however, your ad hominem argument is that because I don't have "wide format" printer that I have zero knowledge. You have not pointed to a specific thing about wide format that I have stated and shown it to not be true. 

You make claims that I only print mousepads for friends and family to try and discredit me, even if that was all I ever did (and it's not) that doesn't disprove anything I have stated. 

Point to a a single thing that I have stated about wide format and disprove it. Point by point.


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## jpkevin (Oct 22, 2007)

I certainly work for a dealer, but my opinion is based on over 4 years as a customer starting out in sublimation followed by 7 years doing technical support. I approach everything I do from a Technical Support viewpoint before a sales standpoint. If I only did sales, it would be very easy to detach myself from the real world and just CLOSE THE SALE no matter what. And I am sure lots of people in my line of work do just that. The HUGE difference is that I will be working the support side of it the next day, and will be taking the phone call from the people that bought the equipment.

_"Yes all sub users starting out need support, but if your inks are clogged it's not because of your software or your press dwell time. If someone is not smart enough to figure that out they should not be sublimating."
_
_There are all kinds of people and all kinds of sublimators. It doesn't make them wrong or bad people. They just need a little more help._
_ 

Setting up for color and graphic apps and diagnosing a clog problem are not really related.

Most people are smart enough to figure out that if you heads are clogged it's not a profile problem or a Photoshop problem or a dwell time problem. Same reason I don't have to go to the car dealer when I need tires. If my radiator is leaking I don't go to the tire dealer or blame him either for the leak."_

Again, there are all kinds of people. You would not believe what people think or assume or believe every single day. Sometimes, they just need a little help. I have had people start by saying one thing is happening, and come to find out in the end, it is something totally opposite.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

jpkevin said:


> I certainly work for a dealer, but my opinion is based on over 4 years as a customer starting out in sublimation followed by 7 years doing technical support. I approach everything I do from a Technical Support viewpoint before a sales standpoint. If I only did sales, it would be very easy to detach myself from the real world and just CLOSE THE SALE no matter what. And I am sure lots of people in my line of work do just that. The HUGE difference is that I will be working the support side of it the next day, and will be taking the phone call from the people that bought the equipment.
> 
> _"Yes all sub users starting out need support, but if your inks are clogged it's not because of your software or your press dwell time. If someone is not smart enough to figure that out they should not be sublimating."_
> 
> ...


Kevin, no doubt folks need help. I'm merely stating that anyone doing this understand all their options before purchasing anything. Trust me, not all sales people in this business have your good ethics.


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## Riderz Ready (Sep 18, 2008)

mgparrish said:


> Your ad hominem attacks fail. Your arguments are always expanding into area that are not related to the discussion.
> 
> When you state ...
> 
> ...


Your a joke - remind me of a college professor I had in marketing spewing his vast knowledge on topics he had never accomplished or done in the real world. 

FYI - I have NEVER had a desktop printer clog - period. I also did not say you only did mouse pads I said "those". Hey if Epson says you are a wide format printer then hey you must be a wide format printer - lol! Please no more post - I cannot stand anymore fun for the day.


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## jemmyell (Jan 26, 2010)

RiderzReady:

Do you know how small it makes you look to insult somebody in every other post? Are you so insecure that you must belittle other people to make yourself feel good?

You should learn to conduct a civil conversation with adult arguments and posts instead of your constant insults and arrogant sneers.

-James


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

Riderz Ready said:


> Your a joke - remind me of a college professor I had in marketing spewing his vast knowledge on topics he had never accomplished or done in the real world.
> 
> FYI - I have NEVER had a desktop printer clog - period. I also did not say you only did mouse pads I said "those". Hey if Epson says you are a wide format printer then hey you must be a wide format printer - lol! Please no more post - I cannot stand anymore fun for the day.


Just because you claim that you have never had a 
desktop printer clog doesn't mean they don't clog. And your ever changing statement was originally

_"Just keep in mind printers do NOT clog. How many times has your desktop printer clog?"_

You insinuated about the mousepads. And again more ad hominem BS. Your only argument is to try and smear someone.

Whether or not you believe I have or haven't accomplished anything is not an argument, it is only your distraction as your arguments fall apart.


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## thatguy66 (May 3, 2011)

Well, I must say, that was a lot to sift through lol I accept and fully understand that when I start this venture, I will run into some issues. 

I'm still having a problem choosing a printer. 

Can I use the mulit-purpose mug paper from Conde with a Richo printer, with good results. I was watching a video they have they have special paper for the Richo so the ink dries faster. From what they said the Richo puts down more ink than an Epson? idk 

Lets say I purchase a C88 from officedepot, can I just buy new dye sub ink cartridges and pop them in? If so where can I get them?


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## jemmyell (Jan 26, 2010)

thatguy66 said:


> Well, I must say, that was a lot to sift through lol I accept and fully understand that when I start this venture, I will run into some issues.
> 
> I'm still having a problem choosing a printer.
> 
> ...


The ink cost for the small cartridges is horrible. Get an Epson workforce 1100 and the Sawgrass CIS and use Artainium. The initial cost will be higher but the per print cost will be MUCH lower. In addition you can print up to 13" x 19" in the future. For now the WF1100 will do anything the C88 will do at a much lower cost.

-James


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## Riderz Ready (Sep 18, 2008)

jemmyell said:


> RiderzReady:
> 
> Do you know how small it makes you look to insult somebody in every other post? Are you so insecure that you must belittle other people to make yourself feel good?
> 
> ...


Thanks mom. Not sure who you are to judge but you have your opinion.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

jemmyell said:


> The ink cost for the small cartridges is horrible. Get an Epson workforce 1100 and the Sawgrass CIS and use Artainium. The initial cost will be higher but the per print cost will be MUCH lower. In addition you can print up to 13" x 19" in the future. For now the WF1100 will do anything the C88 will do at a much lower cost.
> 
> -James


I would also add that in the Artanium inks set the WF1100 inks are improved vs. C88 (or any other 4 color), and from Artanium "bulk" inks in the bottle. 

The WF1100 black inks are not "eggplant" color black like the other 4 color EPson offerings. SG is calling these new inks "Jet Black". 

It may just be they just substituted the Subli-Jet black ink that they always had in the Subli-Jet products but just my guess.

They haven't offered the new black for other 4 color Epson printers yet, or if they will in the future I don't know.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

Bigbaby said:


> I had a lot of problems with the epson. I flushed a lot of money down the drain because of the clogs I was also using the harvey head cleaner which would run a minimal print every day automatically and I still got clogs with the epson. Now I just use my epson as a regular printer and it works fine. I just recently ordered the ricoh so we'll see how this goes. It should be here in a couple of days.


You didn't mention if your Epson was dye based originally or if it was pigment based. You also didn't mention if you had a CIS with the sub inks and the your regular printing was switched back to OEM Epson carts.

I use refillable carts with both sub inks and pigment inks. I print reliably because I understand what is required to do so. Frequent printing, using a good ink delvery method, and I never leave a Epson printer unplugged or keep the power button off for any period of time. Using inks that are good quality are necessary as well, but that alone is not enough to print reliably.

With a Epson _pigment_ based printer, even using Epsons original ink, you must print often enough or you will get clogs. If you go a long enough time not printing you will lose your printer and can't recover it doing head cleans anymore.

Refilling carts (done properly) or OEM carts have a lot less potential to have issues than CIS because there is less complexity ... air bubbles in the lines, position of the tanks and ink lines, how much minimum ink fill is required to keep good ink flow. 

I'm not against CIS, just stating that like all things you have a have a well designed one to start with AND know how to maintain it.

Every Epson I have owned has a Head Cleaning function built into the printer driver software, _it's there for a reason._

I'm not saying that _some_ sub inks are not the cause of clogging, however, for someone else to state that "Printers don't clog" it is simply not true.


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