# Dye Sublimation easier than screen printing?



## kc6789 (Mar 28, 2010)

WTF!? Someone explained this process to me awhile ago and I just watched a video about it- TOTALLY different procedure. 

So u just print your image, color and all, lay the image on the shirt and heat press it for a minute? R u freaking kidding me??????

Wait... What about white ink?

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?xl=xl_blazer&v=Z3g-KaoqPmI


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## BroJames (Jul 8, 2008)

heat transfers is easier because from the computer, print to transfer paper, then heat press. And that's about it. No color sep, no screens, no emulsion or coating, no exposure, no squeegee ... nothing in between the printing on transfers and the heat press. It is convenient and fast. Dye sub is for polyester fabrics or polyester blends only.

And yes, no white inks.

But it has a different market. It is not as soft as screen printing can be. It is not as durable. Must be washed carefully without bleach nor conditioners and cannot be heat dried.

Read more.


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## D.Evo. (Mar 31, 2006)

Dye sublimation, as Angel said, is for polyester and poly-blends. 

The higher % of cotton is in the blend - the more washed out print you will get because sublimation ink doesn't bond with cotton. That is a main draw-back of sublimation, as far as general public goes. 

While there are performance polyester t-shirts that look and feel like cotton (and more comfortable to wear than cotton, because they wick away sweat, not absorb it) - it is difficult at times to overcome old-fashion views that polyster is "hot and uncomfortable".

With sublimation the design gets permanently dyed into the fabric - while screen printing and heat transfers sit on the surface of the fabric. There is no feel to the print, you can use unlimited amount of colours and one-off prints are not a problem.


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## BroJames (Jul 8, 2008)

Hot, uncomfortable, here, polyester is also viewed as "cheaper"


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## Riderz Ready (Sep 18, 2008)

BroJames said:


> Hot, uncomfortable, here, polyester is also viewed as "cheaper"


Not sure where "here" may be but HERE in the states dye sublimation/performance team sportswear is the high end of the market. A CHEAP cotton t-shirt with a team logo printed on it will, fade, crack and be very uncomfrotable in the hot humid weather and maybe sell for $15-20. I dye sublimated full custom shirt made from moisture wicking fabric will go from $40 - 60. Compare the margins - guess which we chose? The day of the old cotton silk screened shirt is just about long gone here in states for performance sportwear. If you want a cheap cotton shirt we have Walmart.


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## jdoug5170 (Sep 8, 2010)

BroJames said:


> But it has a different market. It is not as soft as screen printing can be. It is not as durable. Must be washed carefully without bleach nor conditioners and cannot be heat dried.
> 
> Read more.



Hold on, I call for a penalty. Sublimation is far different feeling than ANY other decorating system out there as there is NO FEEL! The ink totally absorbs into the material....the feel is like ink on paper....

Sublimation is durable for all the things that you say it is not....the only thing that will remove sub ink from a shirt is sunlight....leave your shirt outdoors for a few months in Arizona and the color will fade out.

But, sublimation must be done on white or very light colors and they MUST be polyester...

Doug


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## kc6789 (Mar 28, 2010)

So for someone who does mostly DS, what do they do when they get a customer who wants a dark shirt with white or light colored ink?


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## jdoug5170 (Sep 8, 2010)

kc6789 said:


> So for someone who does mostly DS, what do they do when they get a customer who wants a dark shirt with white or light colored ink?


If it is a couple of faces with plum lips we do it in cut vinyl. You have to have more tricks in your bag these days.

Doug


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## w2csa (Aug 3, 2007)

Sawgrass has Chromoblast inks for 100% cotton, still have to use light colored shirts.


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## D.Evo. (Mar 31, 2006)

kc6789 said:


> So for someone who does mostly DS, what do they do when they get a customer who wants a dark shirt with white or light colored ink?


If design allowes, I do an all over print.
If the quantity allows I do a batch of custom cut and sew shirts.

The prints done on t-shirts below are all-over printed white shirts. 
T-shirt with a girl - band shirt, 50 printed for a concert.
Clowns - one-off prototipe for racing boat crew. 

The singlet - cut-print-and sew job for a local brand.


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## D.Evo. (Mar 31, 2006)

BroJames said:


> But it has a different market. It is not as soft as screen printing can be. It is not as durable. Must be washed carefully without bleach nor conditioners and cannot be heat dried.


Missed this one. Not sure if we are talking about the same process - there is nothing more durable or softer than sublimated print. Since it's dyed into the fabric you can't feel it.
All garments must be washed without bleach if they are decorated.
You don't need to heat-dry poly shirts - the ones I' working with ( for example) dry in 15-20 min and about 10 min on the hot summer day.


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## jdoug5170 (Sep 8, 2010)

Tania...you do these shirts with a Epson C88 printer and a 15X15 press!!!!! I'm impressed! Who knew you could get into sublimation and do such great looking stuff for less than $200! Sign me up!

Doug


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## bigmike666 (Feb 2, 2011)

Hi

I am thinking of investing in a sublimation system, is it ok to get any continuous ink system and fill it with sublimation ink? I get asked to do short runs of fairly complicated and designs and have had to turn them away because of cost constraints, so I'm assuming from what I've seen that this system would be ideal?

Thanks for any help


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## kc6789 (Mar 28, 2010)

Yeah I'd love to do this process too. It's really cool.


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## D.Evo. (Mar 31, 2006)

jdoug5170 said:


> Tania...you do these shirts with a Epson C88 printer and a 15X15 press!!!!! I'm impressed! Who knew you could get into sublimation and do such great looking stuff for less than $200! Sign me up!
> 
> Doug



Hmm. Where did this info come from? Never said I had this kind of set up 

It's done on a Monti Antonio heat press (1,3 x 0,9m platten, twin shuttle) with Roland wide format printer.


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## jdoug5170 (Sep 8, 2010)

Tania...it came because you showed examples of full coverage, print and sew, that realistically cannot be done with anything less than several thousand dollars with no explanation. 

Doug


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## jdoug5170 (Sep 8, 2010)

bigmike666 said:


> Hi
> 
> I am thinking of investing in a sublimation system, is it ok to get any continuous ink system and fill it with sublimation ink? I get asked to do short runs of fairly complicated and designs and have had to turn them away because of cost constraints, so I'm assuming from what I've seen that this system would be ideal?
> 
> Thanks for any help


You can do this with your choice of many of the Epson printers but I wouldn't myself. My experience with the Epson printers is that unless you print frequently, you are going to fight with clogs.

Personally, I'm still a fan of the Ricoh printers for desktop and you cannot use a CIS with these, stuck with the high priced carts from Sawgrass.


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## bigmike666 (Feb 2, 2011)

Cost is going to be the main problem here as I am also investing elsewhere, due to me subbing out and losing money I have decided to bring a couple of processes in house. I can see the sublimation systme being used quite often though


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## kc6789 (Mar 28, 2010)

So DS can lay down all colors at once except white. 

Besides DTG, is there any other system that can lay down every color at once?


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## jdoug5170 (Sep 8, 2010)

Inkjet heat transfer and laser heat transfer... can do dark with proper transfer paper but it has a heavy hand.


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## texasjack49 (Aug 4, 2008)

BroJames said:


> Hot, uncomfortable, here, polyester is also viewed as "cheaper"


 You have really been misinformed about Sub printing. In the Texas summer heat a large screen print design does heat up but sublimation does not. Screenprinting will never have a softer hand than Sub printing. I wash my sub shirts in hot water and hot dryer, they hold up better than Screened T's. Nothing against screen printing, when it comes to dark shirts, larger runs and cost of product, nothing beats it.
Just my opinion.


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## kc6789 (Mar 28, 2010)

So inkjet heat transfers can do white ink?


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## lben (Jun 3, 2008)

kc6789 said:


> So inkjet heat transfers can do white ink?


DTG has white ink. Screen printing has white ink. Dye sub and heat transfers do not have white ink. White is the background color. Just like you wouldn't need a pen with white ink to write on white paper... The white of the shirt is the white in the images. The only drawback of dyesub is the cost. The ink for a C88+ is about $370 and you will need special dye sub paper too. It doesn't last long so you would not want to do large images with dye sub unless you have a lot of money to burn for the ink. Go to conde's webpage and view all the different things you can make with sublimation.


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## kc6789 (Mar 28, 2010)

lben said:


> DTG has white ink. Screen printing has white ink. Dye sub and heat transfers do not have white ink. White is the background color. Just like you wouldn't need a pen with white ink to write on white paper... The white of the shirt is the white in the images. The only drawback of dyesub is the cost. The ink for a C88+ is about $370 and you will need special dye sub paper too. It doesn't last long so you would not want to do large images with dye sub unless you have a lot of money to burn for the ink. Go to conde's webpage and view all the different things you can make with sublimation.


I want to print on BLACK shirts, therefor I need white ink. 

I'll just stick with plastisol even tho I can only print on cotton and 50/50.


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## BroJames (Jul 8, 2008)

On-line Jerseys said:


> Not sure where "here" may be but HERE in the states dye sublimation/performance team sportswear is the high end of the market. A CHEAP cotton t-shirt with a team logo printed on it will, fade, crack and be very uncomfrotable in the hot humid weather and maybe sell for $15-20. I dye sublimated full custom shirt made from moisture wicking fabric will go from $40 - 60. Compare the margins - guess which we chose? The day of the old cotton silk screened shirt is just about long gone here in states for performance sportwear. If you want a cheap cotton shirt we have Walmart.


"Here" is below my avatar-Philippines. I am referring to regular t-shirts where poly-cotton blends are considered cheaper shirts here. Sportswear are polyester + lycra?





jdoug5170 said:


> Hold on, I call for a penalty. Sublimation is far different feeling than ANY other decorating system out there as there is NO FEEL! The ink totally absorbs into the material....the feel is like ink on paper....
> 
> Sublimation is durable for all the things that you say it is not....the only thing that will remove sub ink from a shirt is sunlight....leave your shirt outdoors for a few months in Arizona and the color will fade out.
> 
> ...





D.Evo. said:


> Missed this one. Not sure if we are talking about the same process - there is nothing more durable or softer than sublimated print. Since it's dyed into the fabric you can't feel it.
> All garments must be washed without bleach if they are decorated.
> You don't need to heat-dry poly shirts - the ones I' working with ( for example) dry in 15-20 min and about 10 min on the hot summer day.


Sorry for the foul, lol. My mind must have drifted to regular heat transfers.


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## love4tshirt (Jan 28, 2011)

I love the look of those sublimation t-shirt prints. I really like the first t-shirt design (and not because of the woman  ) and the vest design. The colours look great and the way it is printed all over the t-shirt, even the hems, looks great. It's definitely a process I'm going to consider offering. 

But it is a long lasting quality print if looked after correctly ?


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## BroJames (Jul 8, 2008)

We sold just a few dozens of children's shirt and shorts last christmas. But I kept 2 or 3 designs - for my kid. Color is wonderful. After weekly wear, or about 7 or 8 washes, so far there is no sign of any fading. Looks like it'll stay that way for a long time. I am not sure how much harm sunlight will do to dye sub but we hang the clothes to dry indoors.

So far, all I've seen are all over prints.


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## D.Evo. (Mar 31, 2006)

love4tshirt said:


> I love the look of those sublimation t-shirt prints. I really like the first t-shirt design (and not because of the woman  ) and the vest design. The colours look great and the way it is printed all over the t-shirt, even the hems, looks great. It's definitely a process I'm going to consider offering.
> 
> But it is a long lasting quality print if looked after correctly ?


The design in dyed into the fabric, it will last as long as the garment itself. 
Sportswear and swim-wear are usually decorated by sublimation, probably no other garments are exposed to sunlight more than that. 
If you are planning to use poly/cotton blend the design will look washed out.


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## BroJames (Jul 8, 2008)

I use to have pictures printed, not developed, before photographic inkjet papers became common. They're printed using expensive dye sub printers(???). I "think" the dye sub is in a sheet of film. Now, almost anybody with rudimentary computer skills and the relatively small amount of cash for the equipment can do dye sub transfers. I am wondering what the difference with this photographic dye sub and the transfer dye sub are? One prints on top of paper and the other penetrates through fabric.


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## elhines33 (Jan 28, 2011)

BroJames said:


> I use to have pictures printed, not developed, before photographic inkjet papers became common. They're printed using expensive dye sub printers(???). I "think" the dye sub is in a sheet of film. Now, almost anybody with rudimentary computer skills and the relatively small amount of cash for the equipment can do dye sub transfers. I am wondering what the difference with this photographic dye sub and the transfer dye sub are? One prints on top of paper and the other penetrates through fabric.


As far asI know, dye sub ink is not used for photo prints. The ink does print on top of the sub paper, then when heated the ink becomes a vapor and penetrates the fabric.


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## jdoug5170 (Sep 8, 2010)

So much misinformation floating around lately.

You cannot print with white ink unless you do screen printing. You can lay down a layer of white ink with dtg and then go over it with your cmyk inks.

With ink jet or laser transfer, you can purchase special paper for darks that you print on the "white ink" layer and then heat press it to the shirt. Heavy hand because the white layer and your ink layer are just sitting on top of the shirt.

If I'm doing less than 10 shirts I certainly look at doing heat transfer of one type or the other rather than all of the prep work required to cut a screen, press, and then clean up for screen printing. Time is money and money is what the customer MUST give me to cover my time!


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## bigmike666 (Feb 2, 2011)

I understand how it works and what and what it won't print on, is it worth the investment? I personally feel that it is, however as with most things there is a tremendous amount of choice. What are peoples experience of using epson printers, if used regularly?


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## jdoug5170 (Sep 8, 2010)

bigmike666 said:


> I understand how it works and what and what it won't print on, is it worth the investment? I personally feel that it is, however as with most things there is a tremendous amount of choice. What are peoples experience of using epson printers, if used regularly?


I have done sublimation for over 8 years and you ask, is it worth the investment. Yup, for me it sure was. I started with the old Epson 3000, a workhorse of a printer with which I had little trouble. A little known secret, ignored by many, is humidity control is big in sublimation. If you room has little humidity, you WILL have big clogging issues with Epson desktop printers. I live and work in the PNW and we all know, it rains here 366 days a year so our humidity is pretty high.

I started doing sublimated tiles and mugs. Doing the tiles in a multiple layup (mural) format sold very well for a few years. I strayed from the focus of printing to building frames in which to mount the tiles for a few years, but I'm back now.

Our sublimation is mostly mugs and the bulk of the orders are for multiples. They require very little sub ink, half sheet of transfer paper and of course, a coated mug. I purchase my mugs by the pallet which keeps the freight costs down and I MAKE MONEY on mugs!

Now, we also have cut vinyl capabilities and offer ink jet/laser heat transfer and we have a solvent ink printer that we can do transfers with. Between all of these processes, and sublimation, we are able to meet most of our apparel needs and only occasionally do we find that we need to sub out a screen printed job. We don't find screen printed garments or the volume to be really profitable so we let others do that stuff. We would make more money pressing mugs in the time needed to make a large garment run so we STAY WHERE THE MONEY IS, for us.

As for desktop printers, Epson, not for me today. I have Ricohs and they have been very good to us. We have a mobile setup that we drag out to races 7 months of the year and they are exposed to hot, cold, dry, damp and just plain work! Someday I will have a wide format for in the shop but until then, Ricoh for me.

Doug


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## BroJames (Jul 8, 2008)

elhines33 said:


> As far asI know, dye sub ink is not used for photo prints. The ink does print on top of the sub paper, then when heated the ink becomes a vapor and penetrates the fabric.


I just know the call it dye-sublimation. How do they get the colors? Any info if such process is used on fabrics or vice versa, using "sub paper" on shirts?


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## D.Evo. (Mar 31, 2006)

Maybe this will shed some light:

Dye-sublimation printer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yes, you can print fabric rolls using dye sublimation method. For that you would need a wide format printer and a rotary/roller heat press.

There some printers out there for direct to fabric dye sublimation - the design is printed directly onto fabric and then goes through a heating element. Some of them have an option of printing paper as well.


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## BroJames (Jul 8, 2008)

So they print 1 color at a time like screen printing. Google turns out a Ricoh GX7000 but seems to print on transfer with DTG ink.


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