# How does Crooks & Castles get away with ....



## 151

How does Crooks & Castles get away with taking other peoples logo's (Chanel, Versace etc ....) changing them alittle, and then printing them? 

Do they actual license everything?

Thnx in advnc


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## ravagenrumble

peace I am not 100% on this BUT!

in the hip hop arena.. on the underground level.. many times kids use samples and since they are not selling over 10,000 units or making a lot of noise.. they get away with sampling classic material (michael jackson, beatles, whatever) and remaking beats and putting music out.. 

no sample clearance.. NADA

MF DOOm for one.. used the Doctor Doom image of marvel comics and release VOLUMES of CDS with that image on it.. Mavel Comics.. finally caught it and simply sent a cease letter..like stop using the image or ur gonna be sued.. 

the thing is.. the remaining CDs that were still on shelves were being sold anyways..and the income comes back.. still!

i think it may be the case.. it's all about putting the idea out and i think since it's not so so huge.. castles and crooks is getting bigger though..but since it's so small like like millions of sales.. i think it's kinda like the hip hop thing.. they beast on the idea and get it out .. all over until someone's like STOP!

if nobody says.. stop..they are gonna keep going

i may not be 100% correct but i know for sure..in the hip hop world.. on the underground level.. it works like that

;-)
peace


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## Rodney

151 said:


> How does Crooks & Castles get away with taking other peoples logo's (Chanel, Versace etc ....) changing them alittle, and then printing them?
> 
> Do they actual license everything?
> 
> Thnx in advnc


It's hard to know without knowing the insides of their business dealings. 

But it if they don't have permission, it usually boils down to:



Solmu said:


> The usual story:
> Some do whatever they want and wait for the cease and desist letter (and hope the company doesn't skip over it)
> Some can afford lawyers to defend on the basis of parody, etc.
> Some are in the process of getting sued and losing
> Some are in the process of getting sued and winning
> Some are just lucky and not getting caught
> Some are just lucky and not getting caught... yet
> Some will plan to settle out of court
> Some are ignorant of the law and don't realise the world of hurt that is coming
> Some are carefully staying on the right side of the legal divide
> Some are carefully staying on the right side of the legal divide, but will be sued anyway, and unable to afford an adequate legal defense even though what they were doing was theoretically legal.
> In other words, some are getting away with it, some aren't.


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## ravagenrumble

Rodney said:


> It's hard to know without knowing the insides of their business dealings.
> 
> But it if they don't have permission, it usually boils down to:


 
ur the illest!
thank u sir!


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## 151

Thank you both for ur replies.


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## Unik Ink

If this is what you're talking about, I think there is enough difference not to be in violation of copyright

Chanel

















Versace?


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## ravagenrumble

151 said:


> Thank you both for ur replies.


totally random question for Unik Ink, Rodney or whoever has insight:
judging from the first image Unik Ink posted.. 
what size do u think that screen is???????

i know this one printer can print 11 X 17 but i am curious.. do u think that's a 11 X 17 screen for the below image..


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## corradomatt

I used to own a clothing company and our most popular shirt was a rip off of the Jack Daniels logo. I'm sure everyone has seen a rip off of their logo out there somewhere.

I printed the shirts for a couple of years and mostly gave them away to friends. I also had a website with my products on display. I went out of business a while back, but left my website up with pictures of the JD logo tee on there. After a while, a girl emailed (and then called) about the shirt. She told me that her boyfriend loved Jack and wanted a tee.

I sent her one and used paypal to have her pay for the shipping. Then, a couple of days later I got a certified letter saying I was being sued on behalf of JD. They wanted to settle right away and have me pay them $4500!

Since I never sold any shirts and I'm a broke college student I told them to "go pound sand". The girl threatened with a lawsuit and wage garnishment. I told her that she was crazy. Even if they took me to court, they would pay far more in court and lawyer costs than they would ever be awarded. I told her that if they did get any judgment against me, I would file for bankruptcy (probably easier said than done). 

My thought on the whole deal is that they definitely have the right to come after anyone who is making money using their copyright logo. In fact, it's their duty. Considering that I never made any money off these shirts, and they were all given away to friends and family, they had no case.

It is something that people should consider before trying to market a knock off or rip off of someone else's logo or design. Definately communicate with the owner and work something out first.....
....but sometimes even _bad _publicity is _good _publicity!


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## ravagenrumble

dude..thank u for that insight!

wow!


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## KCINNV

Useful info. SOme of my shorts are similar to popular companies. I'm hoping it's different enough to pass the "parody" exception rule. I'm considered talking to a lawyer.


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## corradomatt

KCINNV said:


> Useful info. SOme of my shorts are similar to popular companies. I'm hoping it's different enough to pass the "parody" exception rule. I'm considered talking to a lawyer.


I would, especially if you can get some free advice on the subject. Colleges are a great source of free law advice. Sometimes, if you talk to some law students (preferably someone close to graduation) they might be able to help, or ask or put you in touch with their professor.


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## 151

Unik Ink said:


> If this is what you're talking about, I think there is enough difference not to be in violation of copyright
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> Chanel
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> Versace?


Check their website Crooks & Castles


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## percival

i heard the same thing about the copyrights, that if you keep the quantity under 10000 or something that its cool... i personally dont like parodies that much! especially when it is all a company has got

crooks have a design with the versace medusa symbol with a bandana over the face and a chanel logo made with gold chains, those are the closetest things i've seen from crooks... so even if they made over 10000 i think they'll pass because you only have to change a logo about 10% give or take to get away with it....

heaps of streetwear labels do it... like FUCT, OBEY, FRESHJIVE and more

personally its a bit of a cop out, i mean i agree they're fun to do! they mock the corporate but maybe they just want to get noticed by borrowing such recognisable logos... and getting sued for this is a great publicity stunt!!! all of a sudden your a badass mother for receiving a letter


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## Rodney

> i heard the same thing about the copyrights, that if you keep the quantity under 10000 or something that its cool


That's not true at all.


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## percival

so if they get away with it, they're just plain lucky?


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## Rodney

percival said:


> so if they get away with it, they're just plain lucky?


Read my post above


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## percival

fair enough.... that pretty much covers everything


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## Solmu

percival said:


> you only have to change a logo about 10% give or take to get away with it....


 Just wanted to point out that this bit isn't true either.



If I were Crooks and Castles I would be operating on a combination of waiting for a cease and desist (fingers crossed they don't skip it) and using a parody defense if it goes all the way to court (which may or may not work).

In my (non-lawyer) opinion parody used to be a bit more solid than it is now. I think a lot of companies (especially in the urbanwear market) are operating on out of date information. We'll see what happens with that, but I won't be shocked if a few of them get hit, while the majority run away and hide: think whack-a-mole.


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## corradomatt

percival said:


> so if they get away with it, they're just plain lucky?


Pretty much. There is no set number of shirts you can make or dollar amount you can stay under (as far as profit or income go) that will keep you safe from being sued. There is also no percentage that a logo can be "altered" to keep you safe either.

It's really up to the lawyers and the courts to figure out the details of the case. Each situation is going to be different. Just because you changed the logo a little, doesn't mean that you are safe. 

As a designer, I create logos with the idea that they can be altered slightly (by the original owner) for different needs. Things like changing colors, adding or moving different elements but keeping the main elements the same.


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## karlking85

percival said:


> personally its a bit of a cop out, i mean i agree they're fun to do! they mock the corporate but maybe they just want to get noticed by borrowing such recognisable logos... and getting sued for this is a great publicity stunt!!! all of a sudden your a badass mother for receiving a letter


Yea, absolutely. A badass mother without a business to run or a penny in the bank.


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## the funk

Im not an attorney, but mine said there is no parody rule meaning if you can still tell what it is, then thats what it is. 

hope that made sense.


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## Schizm

Hey. That CROOKS site is down, no? I get nothing.


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## karlking85

Yea, seems to be. I actually just went to it last night, maybe they are having technical difficulties.....or.....all this bad publicity is getting to them.  haha


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## Solmu

the funk said:


> Im not an attorney, but mine said there is no parody rule


Parody is what the judge makes of it. There is no parody rule, no reliable fair use on that basis, etc. - it's just a defence that some people have successfully used in a court of law, and others have attempted to use unsuccessfully.


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## nativegraphics

As a designer of many designs I've had a few ripped off. Basically the law states that it cannot resemble the original copyrighted material. I finally got fed up and contacted a federal officier who looked thru my copyright certificate and other paperwork from the copyright office. We walked down to a booth at a show and the federal officier and other officiers confinscated the knockoffs which became my property and confiscated their RV and everything in their booth including their booth and took them into custody. Guess I won that battle. So beware of folks who actually exercise their rights.


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## karlking85

Exactly. I worry about all these folks that are ripping designs and hiding behind comments like "They'll never find me, I'm just a little guy, and even if they did, they wouldn't waste their time on a guy with a card table at a flea market." That's the kind of behavior that gets you into hot water quickly.


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## eclektik

nativegraphics said:


> As a designer of many designs I've had a few ripped off. Basically the law states that it cannot resemble the original copyrighted material. I finally got fed up and contacted a federal officier who looked thru my copyright certificate and other paperwork from the copyright office. We walked down to a booth at a show and the federal officier and other officiers confinscated the knockoffs which became my property and confiscated their RV and everything in their booth including their booth and took them into custody. Guess I won that battle. So beware of folks who actually exercise their rights.


wow
what did you do with all the rippoff stuff


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## dancethoughts

I second that wow. It's nice to know you had recourse for someone stealing your stuff. And what DID you do with the stuff?


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## jiarby

about 10 years ago I used to sell stuff at an outdoor flea market (computer stuff). There used to be some guys there selling cd's of microsoft & adobe software for ridiculous prices. I asked them... "how can you do this, you know it's illegal..."

They said:
"we're just a couple of guys selling cd's at a flea market... no way they care about a small potato like us.."

about 6 years later the FBI swooped down on them like they were Osama Bin Laden and hauled them off. They were fined a coupel zillion dollars and have done jail time. 

You are not too small to get noticed. 

It just takes ONE customer to get a funny feeling and then the hounds are after you! 

Do the right thing and build a business that doesn't rely on exploiting other people's intellectual property, trademarks, or copyrights.


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## paulo

I hope this helps...

Small business - Small Business and Intellectual Property - U.S. Patent and Trademark Office - USPTO Stopfakes.gov


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## punkb0ner

I think many of the previous posts have more or less done a good job of clearing up the question of copyright/parody of another company's logo/trademark.

Point is, C&C has deep pockets to hire lawyers in the event of a legal dispute. They may be "underground" but have money and tons of experience from previous clothing lines they've started. They know EXACTLY what theyre doing, and the dangers of doing this kind of designs.

Its all about flying under the radar to make a buck.

As far as licensing goes, theres no agreement with them to use the CHANEL logo or Medusa. Just wouldnt make sense to change an established logo or mark, and then sell it as another brands design/art. its dumb on the Licensor's part.


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## bogie

corradomatt said:


> I printed the shirts for a couple of years and mostly gave them away to friends. I also had a website with my products on display. I went out of business a while back, but left my website up with pictures of the JD logo tee on there. After a while, a girl emailed (and then called) about the shirt. She told me that her boyfriend loved Jack and wanted a tee.
> 
> I sent her one and used paypal to have her pay for the shipping. Then, a couple of days later I got a certified letter saying I was being sued on behalf of JD. They wanted to settle right away and have me pay them $4500!


I wonder - did this person actually work for Jack Daniels? Be interesting to see if any less than reputable attorneys or other induhviduals are wandering around looking for folks to intimidate...


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## punkb0ner

Yeah, they do. Bigger companies have legal teams assigned to investigate "brand intergrity" or infringement. I've worked in many organizations that have some of the most aggressive stance on such things. 

Its personal with some of these guys.....


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## karlking85

Generally speaking, it's just not the kind of water you want to jump into without a good life preserver, and in my opinion, shouldn't be swimming in to begin with!


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## rwshirts

I've got customers stopping in and calling for me to make Ohio State shirts. I just won't back myself into a corner.....OSU has plenty of "shoppers" out there, looking for unlicenced apparel.

Funny thing.....most of their apparel seems to come from China, with the low prices to match. OSU want's you to support their program, but can't seem to want to have apparel made in the US.


RW


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## hobby

It is possible that those people aren't even associated with Ohio State. They could sue you under the notion that they were associated with Ohio State. I was selling something on Ebay once and someone contacted me and wanted to know where I obtained the picture being used. I really thought that they were going to try and get me for some type of copyright violation but I had taken the picture myself.

What if I created a shirt only for myself. Would this be ok if no orders were taken and no profit was made?

I have another question. What if you want to print another version of an Ohio State product. How do you go about getting their permission to pay royalty fees?


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