# Which desktop printer and inks should I buy to start doing dye sublimation on dog tags, license plates, etc



## Paulax2 (Oct 10, 2012)

Hi everyone, I know there is a lot on here about printers but it's kind of confusing if you are just starting.What I need to know is a printer and that is good to start with,I want to do dog tags,license plates and tiles.Thanks in advance for your help


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## uncletee (Feb 25, 2007)

look for old epson c-88 or wf1100. refillable carts . 4 color printers work best for sub. good luck uncletee.


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## Riderz Ready (Sep 18, 2008)

If you are just starting you will really need a vendor to hold your hand during the learning process. 

Unfortunately due to the simple fact that one company completely controls the entire desktop market you really have no choice as they have stopped supporting the Epson printers. You are really stuck with using over priced Ricoh printers and grossly over priced Sawgrass ink. Being that the industry is a monoply that in my opinion includes price fixing it really does not matter where you buy the printer or the ink - it will cost virtually the exact same from every vendor.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

Paulax2 said:


> Hi everyone, I know there is a lot on here about printers but it's kind of confusing if you are just starting.What I need to know is a printer and that is good to start with,I want to do dog tags,license plates and tiles.Thanks in advance for your help


If you are only doing small sublimation legal size or smaller then Sawgrass does support the WF30 and that printer is still in production and available.

Sawgrass isn't supporting any new Epson 13 x 19 printers but the WF30 is current and supported, it can do legal size transfers.

If you want to use a current production Epson 13 x 19 model like the WF7010/7510/7520


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## jimc (Jan 31, 2007)

Sawgrass are now supporting the new Epson 1500 which is the replacement for the 1400. I believe this printer is known as the 1430 in the US.
Uses the same carts and easyflow system as the 1400

Jim


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## jimc (Jan 31, 2007)

Here's a link from Sawgrass (Europe)
Sawgrass Europe Ink Differently Newsletter - October 2012

Jim


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

jimc said:


> Sawgrass are now supporting the new Epson 1500 which is the replacement for the 1400. I believe this printer is known as the 1430 in the US.
> Uses the same carts and easyflow system as the 1400
> 
> Jim


As you mention the 1430 is the 1400 replacement from Epson but so far no indication of US Sawgrass support for any Epson Tabloid currently in production. 

Unless their US website is not up to date SG US is not supporting the 1430. They had supported the 1400 before but although the 1400 and 1430 carts are common, Powerdriver (if using SubliJet IQ) has always been printer specific since it is a driver that speaks to the printer. One could use Artainuim inks and 1400 hardware on the 1430 and use the 1400 profile, but SG wouldn't support that.


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## jimc (Jan 31, 2007)

The Newsletter on their Europe site is for October, had a look on the US site and it's for September, so maybe it will be announced when it is updated.
I would find it odd if they supported it in Europe but not in the US.

Jim


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## jemmyell (Jan 26, 2010)

Hi,

Workforce 1100 printers can still be obtained. The Artainum.com (Sawgrass) website still shows a bulk system and ink available for this printer.

ArTainium - ArTainium UV+ for the Epson WorkForce 1100 System

-James


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## jemmyell (Jan 26, 2010)

mgparrish said:


> As you mention the 1430 is the 1400 replacement from Epson but so far no indication of US Sawgrass support for any Epson Tabloid currently in production.
> 
> Unless their US website is not up to date SG US is not supporting the 1430. They had supported the 1400 before but although the 1400 and 1430 carts are common, Powerdriver (if using SubliJet IQ) has always been printer specific since it is a driver that speaks to the printer. One could use Artainuim inks and 1400 hardware on the 1430 and use the 1400 profile, but SG wouldn't support that.


Hi Mike,

Do you have any Sawgrass instructions that show the actual print driver being disabled? I DO NOT believe 'Powerdriver' is a device driver but rather a relatively smart ICC profile management utility. For it to be a true driver it would also have to be a RIP with the necessary RGB to CMYK conversions and such.

-James


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

jemmyell said:


> Hi,
> 
> Workforce 1100 printers can still be obtained. The Artainum.com (Sawgrass) website still shows a bulk system and ink available for this printer.
> 
> ...


The WF1100 would be my recommendation if they are actually still stocked anywhere. 

Once the printer was discontinued they were going for higher than suggested retail prices on Ebay and Amazon and some 3rd party e-tailors.


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## jemmyell (Jan 26, 2010)

mgparrish said:


> The WF1100 would be my recommendation if they are actually still stocked anywhere.
> 
> Once the printer was discontinued they were going for higher than suggested retail prices on Ebay and Amazon and some 3rd party e-tailors.


Hi Mike,

Yes, these printers have been GREAT for me. I bought three when they were cheap and my spare is still in the box as a backup. BTW, I am not mentioning this as it being possibly for sale. No way! So, everybody that wants one should search online.

They ARE proving their worth in the aftermarket! There are 3 on Amazon for $385 or more. Lots of refurb units on eBay.

ALL cost quite a bit more than the typical $99 in the heyday of WF1100 sales.

-James


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

jemmyell said:


> Hi Mike,
> 
> Do you have any Sawgrass instructions that show the actual print driver being disabled? I DO NOT believe 'Powerdriver' is a device driver but rather a relatively smart ICC profile management utility. For it to be a true driver it would also have to be a RIP with the necessary RGB to CMYK conversions and such.
> 
> -James


The actual printer driver is not disabled, you print to powerdriver just like it was a printer. 

You can see the attached screen shot, I don't know if the Power driver is the "middleman" between the graphic app and Epson printer driver but you print to powerdriver from Photoshop or Corel.

I don't use it but all the color correction associated with Power Driver is included when it is installed.

So I don't know if it meets the definition of a true RIP, but for sure you print to it.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

Just now seeing on SG website (US) that the WF7010 is being supported. 

Haven't seen it in any email blasts from vendors but I was mistaken about the 13 x 19 Epson support. SG is supporting it. Most have been very very recent when they updated. Don't see anything about it on Conde's site yet.

Sawgrass Technologies - SubliJet IQ Sublimation Inks for the Epson WorkForce 7010


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

jemmyell said:


> Hi Mike,
> 
> Yes, these printers have been GREAT for me. I bought three when they were cheap and my spare is still in the box as a backup. BTW, I am not mentioning this as it being possibly for sale. No way! So, everybody that wants one should search online.
> 
> ...


Hindsight is 20/20 but imagine the investment potential if you scooped up a bunch of them before they went EOL.


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## jemmyell (Jan 26, 2010)

Hi Mike,

Yes, that pretty much confirms what I was saying. A true RIP includes actual device driver functionality so it can control the printer channels and ink flow. The Powerdriver apparently switches the current ICC profile in use and acts as a 'shell printer' ultimately sending the output to the Epson driver. Nothing very sophisticated going on. It does MOSTLY isolate the user from the details of color management, but in doing so it creates yet another Sawgrass 'lock'.

It is really better overall if a user learns to use an ICC profile directly from their favorite print application. This will also open the gateway to other non-Sawgrass ink usage.

You MUST own a large format printer to buy these inks, but I haven't seen anywhere that the printer has to actually work...

It also appears that the ink vendors will just take your word that the ink is for a wide format printer.

So, bulk ink, refillable cartridges and custom ICC profiles (many vendors for these) are the gateway to full control and vastly lowered ink costs.

-James


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

mgparrish said:


> As you mention the 1430 is the 1400 replacement from Epson but so far no indication of US Sawgrass support for any Epson Tabloid currently in production.
> 
> Unless their US website is not up to date SG US is not supporting the 1430. They had supported the 1400 before but although the 1400 and 1430 carts are common, Powerdriver (if using SubliJet IQ) has always been printer specific since it is a driver that speaks to the printer. One could use Artainuim inks and 1400 hardware on the 1430 and use the 1400 profile, but SG wouldn't support that.


 
My info is "dated" Sublijet IQ inks for the WF7010 is showing on SG US website.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

jemmyell said:


> Hi Mike,
> 
> Yes, that pretty much confirms what I was saying. A true RIP includes actual device driver functionality so it can control the printer channels and ink flow. The Powerdriver apparently switches the current ICC profile in use and acts as a 'shell printer' ultimately sending the output to the Epson driver. Nothing very sophisticated going on. It does MOSTLY isolate the user from the details of color management, but in doing so it creates yet another Sawgrass 'lock'.
> 
> ...


Agree on the SG "lock".

Conde has been offering ICC profiles for use with Sublijet inks as an alternative to Power Driver.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

jemmyell said:


> Hi Mike,
> 
> Yes, that pretty much confirms what I was saying. A true RIP includes actual device driver functionality so it can control the printer channels and ink flow. The Powerdriver apparently switches the current ICC profile in use and acts as a 'shell printer' ultimately sending the output to the Epson driver. Nothing very sophisticated going on. It does MOSTLY isolate the user from the details of color management, but in doing so it creates yet another Sawgrass 'lock'.
> 
> ...


In the install procedure for Power Driver they are still instructing to install the native Epson driver, so it appears that it is how you describe.


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## Paulax2 (Oct 10, 2012)

mgparrish said:


> If you are only doing small sublimation legal size or smaller then Sawgrass does support the WF30 and that printer is still in production and available.
> 
> Sawgrass isn't supporting any new Epson 13 x 19 printers but the WF30 is current and supported, it can do legal size transfers.
> 
> If you want to use a current production Epson 13 x 19 model like the WF7010/7510/7520 I can PM you an alternate sub ink source with profiles and support for those.


Thanks that woud be great.This is all a litte confusing.Sounds strange that someone monopolizes the ink business.I just want to be able to buy a printer and print.I know sublimation is a different ball game but is that hard?


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## Riderz Ready (Sep 18, 2008)

Paulax2 said:


> Thanks that woud be great.This is all a litte confusing.Sounds strange that someone monopolizes the ink business.I just want to be able to buy a printer and print.I know sublimation is a different ball game but is that hard?


It is surely not as simple as hooking up a standard inkjet printer. There are many factors in dye sub the effect the quality of print. 

That is why as much as the Sawgrass monoply disgust me I still would recommned to someone new to purchase everything from one vendor during the learning process so if things do not go a s planned you have one single number to call.

Once you get comfortable than you can start looking at ways to lower your cost. If doing tags, cups etc. ink cost is not really going to matter anyways.


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## GordonM (May 21, 2012)

I'm no fan of how Sawgrass has conducted themselves vis-a-vis Epson printers and their patents, but one thing to keep in mind is that the high cost of the inks has raised the barrier to entry in the sublimation provider market. When the main patent does expire, and other sources of inks open up, you'll see a flood of subbers, all competing for the same customers and dollars. If you enjoyed a good price point for your sub products, expect to be undercut -- in some cases significantly -- as a lot more people enter the market and try to compete.

IMO, the logjam has never really been Sawgrass (again, I'm no fan or apologist for them). It's more the relative dearth of sublimatible blanks. I hand it to Unisub, LRI, Vapor, and the others who produce blanks, but when more players come to the field, we'll need a 2X to 3X increase (minimum) in the variety of sub-ready products. The days of making money just selling subbed licence plates and mugs is almost over...


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

Paulax2 said:


> Thanks that woud be great.This is all a litte confusing.Sounds strange that someone monopolizes the ink business.I just want to be able to buy a printer and print.I know sublimation is a different ball game but is that hard?


Yes, it may be a little confusing. I'll give it my best effort to sort thru the confusion and explain your choices.

Sawgrass holds a patent for a sublimation ink formulation so they control the market. Besides the ability of Sawgrass to control the market only certain types of inkjet printers can be used to print the inks, so printer selection is further narrowed. For the desktop this means an Epson or Ricoh model. 

_There is also an excellent choice outside of Sawgrass which will allow you to get your printer, inks, papers, subtrates, profile, setup instructions and support all from one source. The alternative will save you a lot of money upfront and in on-going print costs. You will still have the necessary startup and on-going support that you will need. This also offers more choices on your printer selection from Epson models and more flexibilty on how the inks go into your printer._ 

Going back to your original question ... you should determine what is the largest item that you are going to print as printers vary in paper size capability. Keep in mind that what you intend to print now may not be what you ultimately end up printing as you move forward.

If you are planning to ever do tshirts the smaller models can only print up to legal size paper. Printing the larger size tshirts then a letter or legal size transfer looks too small on the shirt unless it is like a logo in the pocket area or just some logo in the top middle of the shirt. 

Another consideration is your heat press, the 13 x 19 size transfers or 11 x 17 trasnfers are too big for a 15 x 15 press, so the next step up in press size is 16 x 20 for the tabloid size transfers. If you are only doing mugs then you can buy a mug press or use "wraps" and a small oven for those.

Since you are just starting out you must understand that no matter what sublimation printer you end up with you have to print frequently so that the nozzles don't clog up. Doesn't mean you have to heat press something, but you must print something or run nozzle checks to keep ink fresh in the printhead chamber.

For the Ricoh models when they first came out they were touted as being able to be used less often without clogging problems, this however has proven to be false as the printers experienced catastrophic failure if you didn't use them often. There are many posts here on that topic. Most (but not all) of the Ricoh users that had these failures were not using them very often.

Epsons clog as well, but usually these clogs can be cleared, sometimes easily, sometimes not so easily. Printing regularly is the best way to avoid serious clog problems. 

Sawgrass on the desktop forces Epson desktop users to 2 choices for the ink cartridges, CIS or prefilled. The Ricohs from Sawgrass come with prefilled carts, there is no CIS option for those and by and large a CIS is not necessary for those due to the larger size of the cartridges.

The Epsons that Sawgrass supports on the desktop were not designed to have large ink volumes in the cartridges, so Sawgrass uses a CIS system and the inks come in larger "bulk bags". Larger ink volume means that you don't have to add more inks as often. 

If you are printing tshirts that is more of a factor as tshirts and some other items require more ink coverage per page than some other items like mugs and small Unisub items do. 

Sawgrass sells prefilled (non-fillable) carts for _some_ Epson models, however these carts are crazy expensive if you figure out the true ink costs per page. It can be as high as $6 per page. Avoid any prefilled Sawgrass carts for Epson they are not economical. For the WF30 Epson model Sawgrass offers prefilled carts but don't fall in that trap. The carts are initially lower in cost upfront to purchase, but ongoing the cost per page is _nothing short of theft_.

The prefilled carts Sawgrass supplies are not designed to be refillable and Sawgrass doesn't support refillable carts on the desktop. If you are doing small items like mugs and such a CIS really isn't needed and those systems add complexity on an Epson and often cause ink delivery problems to the printhead, so some maintanance for CIS exists beyond what you would need for a cartridge only system. 

So in this respect the Ricoh is more "plug and play", however, the alternative choice I have mentioned sells and supports refillable cartridges which are a better choice than CIS if you are only doing small items. Certainly you can still print tshirts or larger items with refillable carts but CIS is more convenient. 

There is now an Epson choice that comes with large carts and not a CIS, the CIS is not necessary in this case. The printer is designed for heavy office use and is now supported with sublimation inks by the alternative choice to Sawgrass. It is only avaible currently in printer size that is letter or legal size. 

EPSON WorkForce Pro WP-4020 Inkjet Printer - Product Information - Epson America, Inc.

The aftermarket refillable carts from the alternative supplier holds *4oz of ink* in a cartridge and is not a CIS, *this blows away any Ricoh model*. There are also other similar printers in this "family" now from Epson and supported with sublimation from the alternate supplier. 4 ounces = 118.29 milliliters. This printer is designed for heavy office usage like a laser printer. 

Just my speculation but I doubt Sawgrass would ever support this model as it would cannablize any of the smaller Ricoh printer sales, and it's half the price or less of the Ricoh. You now how an Epson choice that is designed from the factory to have much larger carts than Ricoh and no need for a CIS.

*************** 
*So as of now your choices for current desktop models from Sawgrass ...*

*Epson *

WF30 Epson letter/legal size.
WF7010 up to 13 x 19 out of the box. Less than $200 if on sale.

Both Epson printers you really must use Sawgrass CIS system, no refillable carts from Sawgrass if choosing Sawgrass. The alternative supplier offers CIS or refillable carts.

*Ricoh*

e7700n 11x17 out the box (about $1300 just for the printer) the multi bypass tray to print 13 x 19 is optional and costs about $140. Near the price of a complete 13 x 19 Epson.

SG3110DN letter/legal size.

**************

If you are just doing small size things like mugs the Sawgrass cost per print really won't matter, however, startup costs, ink delivery options, and available Epson models supported are huge factors. While the alternative suppliers 5x less ink costs on a mug may not matter on a single mug, the entry cost factor and flexabilty of ink delivery and printer choices are huge factors. In either case of a Sawgrass supplier or the alternative you can get your inks, printer, papers, profiles and support all in "one stop shopping".

While it is possible to go Sawgrass now ($$$) and then later learn your setup well enough to switch inks and ink delivery it may not be so simple as switching inks and carts and profiles. Depending on the business you establish going forward you might have re-order customers that you establish so when you change inks you may have to go and retweak art files for the new inks. Certainly this is possible, but it can be tedious and time consuming if your art is bitmap based, so you want to keep the re-order stuff looking the same. 

In this respect if you choose Sawgrass now while you are going thru the learning process and then look for alternatives later, then you have a form of "lock-in" just due to repeat orders if you change inks later. If the reason for choosing a Sawgrass dealer is for the belief that this is the only way to get started with equipment and support _all from one source_ then there is a real alternative to that beyond Sawgrass all from one source..

Check your inbox.


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## Riderz Ready (Sep 18, 2008)

GordonM said:


> I'm no fan of how Sawgrass has conducted themselves vis-a-vis Epson printers and their patents, but one thing to keep in mind is that the high cost of the inks has raised the barrier to entry in the sublimation provider market. When the main patent does expire, and other sources of inks open up, you'll see a flood of subbers, all competing for the same customers and dollars. If you enjoyed a good price point for your sub products, expect to be undercut -- in some cases significantly -- as a lot more people enter the market and try to compete.
> 
> IMO, the logjam has never really been Sawgrass (again, I'm no fan or apologist for them). It's more the relative dearth of sublimatible blanks. I hand it to Unisub, LRI, Vapor, and the others who produce blanks, but when more players come to the field, we'll need a 2X to 3X increase (minimum) in the variety of sub-ready products. The days of making money just selling subbed licence plates and mugs is almost over...


Gordon - I think the viability of desktop sublimation as a business has always been nothing more than a dream. It is vendors that convinces people at trade shows and seminars ( I include myslef in this group) that desktop dye sublimation is a great way to make good money. Just call a church, a school, etc etc and money will start flowing in. Very few realize that the ink cost is prohibitive and in reality in most cases it makes no difference to the success or failure of a company as the amount used in mugs, license plates, etc is minimal. In my opinion the days of making money selling subbed license plates, mugs, etc (desktop market) has been long gone for years. 

What percent of dye sublimation desktop users can truly make a living at this? I would guess it is under 5% and that would be people with a specialized product. 

In looking at it I do not see the dramatic drop in ink price changing much in the desktop market except bringing the Cartel down to their knees as they try to explain why they were charging $2,000 a liter for ink for the past 10+ years. I say this becuase the cost of creating a mug, license plates, etc is not going to really drop because not much ink is going to be used. Shirt crushers are still going to have to buy expensive shirts thus their cost may drop a couple bucks but never enough to compete with screeners. 

I just personally do not see how the dramatic drop in ink cost in the desktop market will open the gates to a flood of new people trying to make a buck. If it does they will fall off the cliff very quickly as the ink price does not appear to open new markets that do not exist today.


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## GordonM (May 21, 2012)

Just so people don't think there's some secret illuminati society going on here, anyone can go to eBay and purchase authentic unexpired ArTanium brand ink in 125ml bottles for less than half the going price. I think Mike has mentioned this resource a number of times, and it's how I learned about it. 

I'm not sure where the notion came from that there's something underhanded about the sale of these inks. I think it's pretty well established that the Sawgrass patent doesn't extend to Epson printers, which don't require any formulation to prevent premature activation. But that hasn't stopped their lawyers from getting involved. I think it's just good policy not to feed that machine.

I will also say that when the patent expires, the real winners will be companies like Conde. I guess they might be considered part of the "cartel," as they are a Sawgrass reseller, yet when the barrier to entry is lowered because of an inflow of much cheaper inks, you can bet their sales will skyrocket. So will the likes of anyone else in the biz of selling printers, blanks, heat presses, and other supplies.


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## paintersspouse (Jul 26, 2012)

I am one of those people that went with the "other" ink. I am a small home based business and cost per print makes a difference. What makes even more of a difference is the initial costs before production.

I have been printing Giclees for several years with a large format Epson. I understand how the cost of ink makes a big difference in cash flow for a small business. Small businesses production rates are much less and a huge investment in ink that takes many months to use just because you are running a desktop printer is unfair and bad for business. Add to that paying a premium for a printer that has know problems adds to those bottom line costs.

I don't need as much support from my supplier because I have already done the work in learning color management but what help I did need was wonderful.

I print my husbands artwork and I needed to go with a full system so I could be responsive to my wholesalers. For me every penny saved makes a huge difference to our small business.


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## Rodney (Nov 3, 2004)

*Thread note:* some off topic posts have been moved out of this thread. If you want to argue back and forth, please do it off the forum, as posting an argument in public doesn't help anyone. 

Also, please keep the relevant industry information in the forum or keep Private Messages private 

If you need to send a Private Message, just send a PM. No need to post in the forum to ask someone to check their PM (they get a notification) or no need to post in a thread to ask someone to PM you (just PM them privately). That way people that aren't in on the PM don't feel like they are missing out and people who are reading the thread later at 3am when they have a similar issue can find all the relevant information they need without having to contact people privately and not feel lost with missing bits of information. 

If it's so secret that it can't be posted, then please don't post about it and ask people to contact you directly about it. If you have any questions about this, please contact me directly so this thread can stay on the topic of trying to get help with dye sub printers ​


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