# Copyrighting a "saying"?



## BAD311 (Nov 17, 2007)

So I am launching a new t-shirt brand/company... I have my business license, my t-shirt printer, my graphics, and an online website secured by SSL and other security methods... Using Authorize.net for CC orders, etc...

Being a web designer for 7 years you learn a lot, haha.

Now, my issue is: I have nearly 20 designs, ALL ORIGINAL AND UNIQUE. The thing I am worried about is having Joe Blow steal my "saying" and putting it on a t-shirt with a different design/font, etc... If I get a copyright on each "design" does it apply toward the "saying/tagline" of the shirt? Or just the design of the tagline?

Would something like "My mother eats fried bananas" could I copyright this and only I have rights to it? Prevent it from being used by other t-shirt folks, etc...? Or does just the design I use apply?

Thanks all!


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## Solmu (Aug 15, 2005)

BAD311 said:


> Would something like "My mother eats fried bananas" could I copyright this and only I have rights to it?


Nope, too short and trivial to copyright. You'd need to try and trademark them, but in order to do that you'd need to show they were an intrinsic part of your brand... which you won't be able to do for all twenty.


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## BAD311 (Nov 17, 2007)

So someone could grab my ideas and pretty much post them all over bustedtees.com, phatrags.com, tshirthell.com, sell them at flea markets, Wal-Mart, Target, anywhere they wanted if they had a buyer?


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## Solmu (Aug 15, 2005)

Pretty much. You could certainly try and sue them, but the law as it is written (which is not always as it is practised) is not intended to protect short phrases. Copyright is intended to protect substantial works, not ideas; a few words can scarcely constitute more than an idea.


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## HulaArt (Nov 14, 2007)

bad311, I don't know how to create a link to another thread yet, so heres a copy&paste of my post from a topic called "trademarking a slogan".Do search for trademark and you'll find much info.

Aloha! 
I'll add what I understand as well:

The biggest confussion always seems to be "What do we trademark and what do we copywrite?"

The difference is simple really. 

A *" trademark "* is used to register ownership of a specific symbol, as a word or shape etc. that represents a brand or business doing business. Nike is a great example. They have NIKE (in a certain font and in all capitol letters), the "swoosh" and "Just Do It", all as their trademarks. 
3 different types of symbolic representation of that "brand" or shoe manufacturer. The key to trademarking a sloagan such as "Just Do It" is, the sloagan must be an obvious representation of the source, or"brand".
i.e. That particular phrase or sloagan (Just Do It), was used so much in advertising, that it became known as "that NIKE phrase""Just Do It". An obvious representation of the source. Had they not used that phrase in advertising so much so, that pretty much everyone knew you meant NIKE, they would not have been able to trademark "Just Do It". (commonly used words)

A *" copywrite "* is used to register ownership (most often creatorship as well) of original creations of art, photographs, music, lyrics, poems, literature, screenplays etc. not to mention _Graffic design Artwork_!
_However_, though a copywrite will cover say, a short poem, it will not cover a "short phrase" of commonly used words. (basicly, all words in the english lanuage are considered commonoly used words)

So, if you take a sloagan and by free hand or computer software create an artistic version of that sloagan, such as specific fonts and/or arrangement of words and letters, shape, shadow, outline etc. you can copywrite that as you would a song or a painting. The sloagan will only be protected by copywrite if is the exact version of that one piece of work. You own the design, not the phrase, or sloagan.

So, what you can do is, spend some time creating every possible way to print that sloagan. In every font, shape, arrangement, color etc. that you have time for. Then you submit them all as one "work", on one form for $35.
Then if someone copies any of those "works" exacty or closely enough, you _MAY_ have legal recourse. (which of course means "Get a lawyer". )

All of these forms and general instructions can be found online, and it is possible to file yourself. They have phone #'s to call with questions and are usually quite helpfull. (from my experience) Copywrite forms are easy to do yourself, (as you know) but trademarks can be tricky especially with sloagans.

_More Helpful Info..._

What many people don't realize, is that for copywrites, the creator of that original "work" becomes the owner of that "work" immediately upon creation. _Unless of course_, that "work" was created as a work for hire. Then, the employer who pays the artist owns the copywrites, in whatever percentage is agreed upon by both parties.

We file for "copywrite" to regisister with the federal government, to publicly declare and be acknowledged of our ownership. 

Without this, proving the authorship of a disputed "work" in court usually becomes difficult if not imposible in the event of plajurism.

As someone very nicely put it in another thread, trademarks and copywrites are more like knives than shields. They can't keep it from happening, but can give you legal recorse. (i.e. cease and desist, lawsuits etc)

Therefor, even without a copywrite filed on a "work", if one _could_ prove their authorship in a court of law, it would be the same thing. Only more difficult. (i.e. Get a better lawyer. )

Technicly, you could create something that you could both copywrite AND trademark. But theres no reason to, as both do the same thing within the guidelines of the law as it is writen, to the best of my knowledge.

I hope this helps! demarking a slogan"


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## BAD311 (Nov 17, 2007)

Gotcha, thanks man, you've been a great help! Kinda sucks that anyone can steal my ideas... But, what can ya do... Sue? Yea, possibly.


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## HulaArt (Nov 14, 2007)

P.S. Even an original graffic design of a slogan could be deemed as too common or un-original to deserve copyright protection. Lots of gray area. 

You would be wise to copyright all your designs, but that's no gaurantee you'd get help from a judge in court. Alot is determined by just how original the design is.
Remember, we can't own a short phrase, but we can own an original artistic version or portrayal of that phrase. i.e. the design. Unless of course, it is deemed too generic, common or un-original.


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## slicebo (Oct 5, 2007)

Not a lawyer... but I have been granted trademarks with one of my bizs and with one of the others I deal with copyrights. You can/should retain an "intellectual property" attorney if you wish to persue this but I tend to agree with the above poster... 
you are probably looking @ trademarks... but again consult an attorney...
Adios...

I've sent "cease and desist" letter as well...


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## T-BOT (Jul 24, 2006)

ImageIt said:


> The long answer is that i doubt that you have invented any new saying so clever and unique as for it to be an issue.
> 
> fred


I often wonder about that. How much really new and unique is out there that has NOT been done? by some one before.

Allow me to share this with you all:

My dear friend back home, has been making one of a kind shirts for people from everywhere for the last 30 plus so years. Believe it or not, he sketches the shirt and their slogan/design on a sales order paper and writes the persons name and tel. # on it.

Ask him to through away a room full of boxes with a gazzilion little papers (in this case small size sales orders) from all the shirts he has made for people and he will BITE you.  

man this guy has heard/seen it all let me tell you. All from everyday people that come up with the coolest slogans etc... i guess thats where *I'm with Stupid* came from. An unknown person off the street.

He also collects all the transfer makers catalogs and their supplements going back to the transfer-cave-days.  

Made sure it all comes to me..... already . Yes im 1st on the bidding list. 


sorry, i'm not a legal type person so i can't really contribute to the topic much.

Would a little paper with a sketch of a design (as mentioned above) be sufficient or have any weight in a (c) case? 

of course this original design belongs to the persons name and tel# on the sketch paper/sales order.


:


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## Comin'OutSwingin (Oct 28, 2005)

American copyright law says that the work must be registed BEFORE a case can be brought to court.


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## Solmu (Aug 15, 2005)

Comin'OutSwingin said:


> American copyright law says that the work must be registed BEFORE a case can be brought to court.


Whereas Canadian law most likely doesn't (I don't know though). As far as I'm concerned the requirement for registration was just the US government creating a loophole out of their international treaty obligations. The treaty requires signatories to provide automatic protection, but the way the US registration system works nullifies that by making the automatic protection provided there close to worthless.

That said, registration systems are great - it's only the compulsory nature of them that's a problem.

Would the purchase order sketches be useful in a court case? Probably. Proving copyright without a registration is going to be a pain, but if you can show meticulous records, it's going to be a good start.


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## Skyler Francis (Nov 15, 2007)

One thing that you can do to at least show that you had a design at a certain time, is to get the design notarized. A lot of people think that you can mail a letter to yourself containing invention ideas and the such, but you could just leave the envelope unsealed and put something in it later (that is why they dont allow it).

With a notarized copy you will have it on record you will also have witnesses and a notarized date and time.

So if you are using a slogan and you dont have a copyright or a trademark but someone else starts using it later BECAUSE your design is selling you would at the very least have a date and time that you created the slogan or design which then the Judge would determine who started using it first.


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## karlking85 (Sep 26, 2007)

That's not a bad idea, but I wonder if it would hold up in court.


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## BAD311 (Nov 17, 2007)

You could always send them a cease and desist (excuse my spelling) with a copy of the notary? Good idea, I like it. Notary is free (banks, etc...)


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## Skyler Francis (Nov 15, 2007)

karlking85 said:


> That's not a bad idea, but I wonder if it would hold up in court.


The reason you would go to court would be if they were blatantly using the same design or slogan that you are knowing full well that it will help them boost sales. BUT as you can see there are trends.... Heraldry and Coat of arms images are really popular right now in shirts. (A lot of my creations use them) the first company that started that trend cant sue everyone else saying "well I did it first".

But if for instance i use a phrase but it isnt SO detrimental to my company that i am at the point in trademarking it, and someone notices that my shirts sell with this crazy phrase on it so THEY start doing it too.

If you were to have a notarized copy of all your designs which include this phrase, the judge would be more apt to make the other company stop using it based on the fact that they are copying you.

But as was stated before.... if you have something that is so IN THE NOW that everyone wants to copy you, get it trademarked and use what ever statistics you have IE (shirts sold with this phrase on it, website slogan, used in advertising etc etc) and also a notarized copy of your design to get a trademark in place (in case they need more reasons).

Notarizing things are also good for if a big company like NIKE does use a similar design or phrase and have the big man lawyer power to trademark, you could show that you had the design first. Without that paper in hand, you would lose because no one is going to believe the little fish.

This is all my speculation and my opinion.

-Skyler


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