# Diary of a new Brother GT-782 Owner



## Printzilla

I have been tossing around the idea of purchasing a 782 since the Atlanta show. Initially, I did not think I could justify the price of the machine in combination with the high ink costs. After further investigation, and follow up with Brother, I learned of different pricing levels based on usage. This new information, in combination with interviewing four current owners as to their solutions to the waste issues, changed my opinion. 

On Thursday of last week I contacted four distributors for quotes. I contacted Nazdar, Conde, Axiom, and SewingMachine.com. I never heard back from Nazdar, so obviously they had no shot. The other three were very responsive, and helpful. In the end I choose sewingmachine.com. They had the best overall price for the package I wanted, but not by much. The real deciding factor was the delivery options and time frame, as well as the excellent customer service. 

My delivery is scheduled for Monday. I have 500 blanks in various colors, brands, etc.....ready for test printing. I have decided to stick with manual pretreating to start with. I will be using heat presses, as well as my Vastex scrubbed air conveyor dryer. 

I will update this thread as I have more info, as well as adding pictures of the install, prints, etc.....

Zilla


----------



## rramirez

Zilla, price doesn't always mean you'll receive the best training or support. The guys over at SewingMachine.com are great for both and you'll be in good hands. Also, remember to check about your brand of heat press, we have sold in the past certain air driven units and had major issues. Good luck with your purchase.


----------



## Printzilla

Who is we?


----------



## rramirez

non of the dealers on your side of the country. West coast dealer if you need specifics send me a PM.


----------



## Printzilla

I bought hotronix, and have always had great results with them.


----------



## binki

we have 2 hotronix presses and like them. better than the dk we have


----------



## HPS

I am very interested in following your diary. I would love to know the daily maintenance cost and white ink loss. I do not have the volume of many users but have only been in business with dtg for a few months and we have not really advertised due to health reasons but my health is improving and my screen printers are sending me lots of work and word of mouth from people we have sold to has been a big driver. i am investing in an epson platform soon, like any day. I am hoping we can get enough light and dark tee work to get the 782, I love my 541. i will be watching this closely. Congrats on the buy and wish you great success. Would love to see how the 782 compares to epson prints and get a handle on daily upkeep and waste costs.

i don't really have space for this unit but if we can grow with the 541 and the epson unit we are buying I would love to add this to the mix at some point. Happy for you and can't wait to see how this runs for you and what the real costs of ink are for print and waste and what type of production you are able to achive hourly/daily with dark and light garments.

Best regards


----------



## Printzilla

I plan on a very exacting log on all of the parameters, waste, ink usage per design size, speed of printing on lights and darks with various size designs, pretreat methods, different curing methods, etc.......


----------



## VBGrafx

I would be interested in updates also, thanks.


----------



## Printzilla

My 782 left Bartlett today. Scheduled for delivery Monday.


----------



## Stitch-Up

Printzilla said:


> My 782 left Bartlett today. Scheduled for delivery Monday.


For someone who's been involved in DTG for as long as you have, you still seem excited


----------



## Printzilla

I am. I really love this industry. I have been a t-shirt junkie for over 25 years, since I printed a shirt in the scouts. I hope I never lose that passion.


----------



## Stitch-Up

Printzilla said:


> I am. I really love this industry. I have been a t-shirt junkie for over 25 years, since I printed a shirt in the scouts. I hope I never lose that passion.


That's inspirational


----------



## JLob

I can't wait to read your diary 
I am researching for a dtg printer so its going to be very help full
thank you


----------



## vctradingcubao

thanks for sharing, looking forward to your updates.


----------



## Printzilla

Finally got a return call from Nazdar. The sales rep was on vacation until today, so that is why I did not hear from them. The install tech just called, and we have an install time set for Monday at noon.


----------



## IYFGraphics

Congratulations Marc, I'm really looking forward to your viewpoints on the Brother and some unbiased/real world figures on the ink usage and true costs....

Good luck.


----------



## Justin Walker

IYFGraphics said:


> Congratulations Marc, I'm really looking forward to your viewpoints on the Brother and some unbiased/real world figures on the ink usage and true costs....
> 
> Good luck.


I second that!


----------



## Printzilla

It's here! We have unloaded it, and are installing the heads.


----------



## Printzilla

Filling with ink. So far my install tech is great!


----------



## Stitch-Up

Keep 'em coming


----------



## IYFGraphics

Printzilla said:


> Filling with ink. So far my install tech is great!


Damn Zilla...you use a roll-back to get it in the door...LOL!


----------



## Printzilla

Better than my back! 

First impressions. This unit is very fast. Easily 6x faster than my kiosk. The brother ink is substantially thicker than the dupont. Great feel and durability. The amount of pretreatment required is much higher. I really am laying it on. At this early stage it seems the white ink does not lay down as smooth as it does on the Epson. This may be a product of me still learning the proper pretreating procedures by hand. I may end up with an automatic pretreater way before I thought. The only real weakness so far is large solid area of colors. The brother simply does not lay down the ink as cleanly as the epson. Obviously this has to do with ink thickness, droplet size, interlacing, and resolution. 

I am taking a break to watch DA BEARS. I will update later this evening after the game. 

Zilla

Ps-remember all of my coments are based on two hours use, and 25 prints.


----------



## TahoeTomahawk

How soft is the hand with the thicker ink and extra pre-treat?
Is it comparable to the Dupont?


----------



## Printzilla

I actually think it is softer to the touch, not as plastic feeling, especially after washing. However it is thicker.


----------



## PPop

Printzilla said:


> I am. I really love this industry. I have been a t-shirt junkie for over 25 years, since I printed a shirt in the scouts. I hope I never lose that passion.


Congrats! I've never lost that passion either. 

I'de love to be able to pull the trigger and buy a 782. I've been having my shirts printed on the 782 for 9 months now, and I think it is the best, by a long mile for many reasons, except for the cost and the ink cost.

Once you get going, I'de like to know your cost of ink per month, and how many (Black) Shirts printed with that ink cost...


----------



## Printzilla

I will keep you updated for sure. I plan to keep this post running. Do you have one of your shirts printed on the 782 that has a decently large area of solid white? If so, could you post a close up picture of the white?


----------



## Printzilla

Here is a video of the Great Dane Surf Shark. Sorry for the shaking, shot it on my phone.

[MEDIA][media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45y4Q37Z2DE&feature=youtube_gdata_player[/media][/MEDIA]


----------



## Printzilla

Well I obviously do not know how to embed the youtube video on this forum. Any tips?

I put the link up.


----------



## acca

Can you compare the print quality and cost of the brother machine vs an epson based one using the same shark image?


----------



## IYFGraphics

Zilla,

If you wrap the URL with the media tags you'll get an embedded video like below...just click the blue M on the right side of the post/edit window and drop the URL in between. 

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45y4Q37Z2DE&feature=youtube_gdata_player[/media]

Hope this helps.


----------



## Printzilla

The cost is very close if you base it on buying Brother ink in bulk quantities. The issue is the money made up in speed. I can do more shirts in an hour with the gt782 than with six of the slower epsons, or two of the faster 1800 based models. Of course for the price, I could buy three of the mod 1's, or six used kiosks retrofitted with bagged inks. The next advantage is the cure time being 4-6 times as fast, depending on whose guidelines you use for dupont ink. I also prefer the feel and washability of the brother inks. 

With all of that said, the epson put out way better detail, and much smoother lay down of the white ink, because it's over four times thinner. The Dupont ink also has a much brighter white point than the Brother. So far my experience is that the Brother ink has a slight tint of blue. When used in designs that have larger solid blocks of white, my prints on the epson look better because of the brighter white. I am hoping that after I learn the intricacies of the Brother and it's pretreat that will change. Anywhere there is cmyk over white the Brother prints look great.


----------



## Printzilla

After another full day, I have learned even more. The prints are getting better and better. The method of pretreating with a spray bottle and wiping with the brush/roller/sponge produces poor results. Eliminating the brushing stroke actually helped produce a better print. Switching back to the Wagner type (sigh) improved the print. 

I will be printing most of the evening, so I will keep the posts coming. I'll have pics later as well. 

Zilla


----------



## WholesalePrint

Want solid white? print 5/5 and wheeeew thats bright!


----------



## Printzilla

I don't have 5/5 I have 5/3..... Am I missing something? And when I print on 5/3 I do get a thicker brighter white, but it seems to be splotchier. I am sure it is just my pretreatment technique not being up to par. I am currently deciding on which direction to go for an automatic pretreater.


----------



## WholesalePrint

Zilla you will notice different name brand shirt for some reason will also make your print look more caked to the point you can use less ink. For Example G2000 And 5250 print almost Identical but we can use a a lighter setting for G200 for some reason


----------



## Printzilla

I have noticed this. It is just like the Dupont ink in that regard. I get much better results on ringspun t-shirts.


----------



## loloxa

Printzilla said:


> I don't have 5/5 I have 5/3..... Am I missing something? And when I print on 5/3 I do get a thicker brighter white, but it seems to be splotchier. I am sure it is just my pretreatment technique not being up to par. I am currently deciding on which direction to go for an automatic pretreater.


5/3 does not produce better prints ( in my experience usually worse, puddles chance of under-curing and way to much hand ( more ink less adhesion to the garment)), a solid even T-shirt ( ringspun 5.6 oz and if possible with 3 to 5% spandex for consistency and smoothness, is the best I print ) and even pretreating is what makes a world of a difference.

The one thing I have not questioned buying was the autopretreater, I would probably would have given up on printing on darks with the brother where not for it, the few instances where I have used the provided roll for pretreating I could not believe anyone would be actually using it, quality is horrible and lets not forget the wasted time ( the VIPER auto can pretreat one shirt in less than 6 seconds with consistent results).

Next on my list is another press because I'm finding that curing a whole bunch of pretreated t-shirts in a row can bring my temps down a few degrees.


----------



## Printzilla

I agree. The best prints for me seem to be 3/1, using the power sprayer. However, I am for sure getting a pretreatment unit. Hand pretreating is much more difficult with the Brother fluid. 

I have three heat presses. One auto for pretreat curing. Because of the pressure needed, using a manual gets old fast. The other two are manual for final cure with light pressure. It is very easy for them to drop temp on a white shirt run, where you are really pumping out the shirts.


----------



## islandtees

Hi Marc,we are joining you on the 782 band wagon.Just put in our order for one along with the Viper pretreat.We have a 541 so we have a headstart.If you dont mind I would like to post some of our results with ink and printing in your diary.


----------



## Printzilla

Feel free. The more info the better!


----------



## Printzilla

I just printed on a couple of shirts that came from Brother. Significantly better than the results I have gotten by hand pretreating. I am ordering my pretreater in the morning!


----------



## stix

which one are you going to order? Just curious.


----------



## JLob

Great diary
now what pretreater do you like and why
thank you


----------



## Printzilla

The Viper XPT. I will give a complete review of it after I have put it through the paces.


----------



## TPrintDesigner

You won't go wrong with the Viper. The only learning curve is getting the volumes right for different coloured shirts. The rest is plug and play.

You will save $$ on pretreat as well as time.


----------



## Printzilla

I am very concerned about the electric motor and pump continuing to deliver at the same rate over ann extended period of heavy production...i.e...will it flow the same a year from now after 25000 cycles, as it does day one out of the box? I guess I will find out.


----------



## Smckee21

This is a great thread and I hope your new machine works well for you, I have been running the GT-782 for 2 months now and it really impressed me as well. We are using a manual pre-treater with a digital scale and are having great results, I truly believe that the automatic pre-treaters are a waste of money. I am also using the Hotronix Heat presses as well and these have always worked great for me.

Steve


----------



## Brian Walker

PrintZ - We have a customer using the Viper who actually has 2 GT-782's and is getting a third shortly. They are running 5-6 days a week at 8-10 hours a day. 

Do the math. Even if they are only doing a 30% ratio of dark shirts that need pretreating - that's around 18,000 - 48,000 shirts sprayed in a 12 month period. Obviously depending on their ratio of white to black. That's only 30%. It could be as high as 45,000 - 65,000 sprays.

The biggest thing is keeping the Viper clean - sort of like changing the oil in your car - it usually runs better (same with the 782 - maintenance is utmost important!). The rest is just printing and making money.


----------



## WholesalePrint

> I truly believe that the automatic pre-treaters are a waste of money


I disagree. Are they overpriced HELL YES! but once you get full production of 250 shirt a day minimum and you do not want to hire a second person they come in haaaaandy boy


----------



## Printzilla

Here are some shirt pics.

http://picasaweb.google.com/n2o2He/DropBox?authkey=Gv1sRgCLvI5KDst8f62AE&feat=directlink

I cant figure out how to embed links in this forum software, so just click on the link.

All of these were taken with a cell phone, so keep that in mind.


----------



## IYFGraphics

Printzilla said:


> I cant figure out how to embed links in this forum software, so just click on the link.


That's a tough one Zilla, I tried all my usual things to embed your photos but none work...must be a google thing, maybe Rodney would have a suggestion.

BTW nice prints.


----------



## Printzilla

Here is a print I did for another thread about how the printers handle different opacity.


----------



## Printzilla

My Viper will be here on Monday. I will give a thorough review early next week. I plan on running several different color and weights of shirts.


----------



## Brian Walker

A gerenal starting point for fluid lay downs on the Viper. 

The heaVier the shirt the more fluid lay down. 
The lighter the color the shirt, use less fluid. 

With that said i am mseeing people use an extremely wide range of settings. 

For example, on black heavyweight G2000 shirts a general good starting point would be around 55-65 setting on the Viper. Roughly this would be around 25-30 grams. I know in Atlanta we were spraying around 52'is for all the colors. Utilizing an pneumatic heat presss will greatly increase your imprints for several reasons. One is you will get a much more solid, consistent pressure and even cure of the pretreatment. Two it will force pretty much all the fluid out of your garments. Three, it can make really cool sounds when curing (sometimes it will sing to you). 

However, I have some users who are spraying at around a setting of 24 which is about 12-14 grams on a black heavyweight and they claim they are experiencing little difference. The whites would not be nearly as bright, but it depends on the look you are going for. 

Some of the previously problematic colored dyes like light orange, some powder blues, etc require the lower amounts of pretreament - which would be about the 24. Setting on the Viper and give you around 14-15 grams. 

Less pretreatment will give you a less visible pretreated area. However, as the shirt sits around and re-absorbs moisture it become pert much a moot issue for most people. But less pretreatment will result in more likely a lesss optically bright white. 

The great thing about the Brother pretreatment is it has a relatively generous range of functionality. You can apply too much pretreatment and you can apply too little pretreatment. However, therre seems to be a relatively wide "window" of usage. 

Let me know how it all goes. Pretreatment has been the big "secret" amongst users. In the beginning there was a lot of trial and error and the information was not given up easily. I am sure PrintZ, as usual, you'll help disseminate more and better Info...


----------



## loloxa

Brian Walker said:


> The great thing about the Brother pretreatment is it has a relatively generous range of functionality. You can apply too much pretreatment and you can apply too little pretreatment. However, therre seems to be a relatively wide "window" of usage.


Indeed, because I'm 1 part of pretreat/ 2 of water spraying at 21 and I'm seeing perfect results, using a high pressure manual press, on 6oz t.shirt. So yes your millage may vary, the only problem I have had is with temps and undercuing the pretreatment, apart from that the only issue I'm having with the viper is that some nozzles fire later on the first shirt I pretreat and leaves a gap in the beginning of it's path, so sometimes I have to pretreat some shirts twice.


----------



## Brian Walker

The other big thing with pretreating is the following:

Make sure your heat press is back up to temp before curing the next pretreated shirt.

Many heat presses (manuals and depending on voltage and recovery rate) will drop 15-20 degrees. Of course this depends on the total pretreatment applied and how much moisture the heat machine has to evacuate. 

Trying to heat press to quickly with a temperature that is too low will result in not so good pretreated shirts. And bad prints.... and...and...and..

A good 230V good recovery press should allow you to keep up with the Brother in sync - i.e. pretreating while heat setting and printing and curing the shirts if you have a heat press dedicated to the pretreat curing and one for the curing of the t-shirts.


----------



## islandtees

With a air operated press and Brother pre treat are we talking about 60lbs pressure or do you have another suggestion.


----------



## Brian Walker

Try 80 psi.... It sounds like a lot, but that's what I recommend. You might even experience better results with the final prints... Helps cure and get all the moisture out...


----------



## Printzilla

loloxa said:


> Indeed, because I'm 1 part of pretreat/ 2 of water spraying at 21


Are you mixing 1/3 pt and 2/3 water? Or half and half? Just wanted to clear up the one part PT, two part water statement.


----------



## Brian Walker

For the Brother pretreatment the easiest way is to do this.

Mix into an empty container.....

Take one gallon of distilled water, dump it into your pretreatment container.

Then fill that empty gallon jug with 1 gallon of pretreatment and dump that into your pretreatment container.

Then take another gallon of distilled water and dump that into the pretreatment container. 

Mix/Shake well and serve chilled with a nice wine and cheese (just kidding for those - don't consume the pretreat - it might cause constipation or worse). Actually, it shouldn't be chilled either - temperature causes a difference in spraying too, but room temperature is good.


----------



## Printzilla

So 2 parts water to one part PT is your suggestion? I wondered if that would work. I was trained to do 1:1.


----------



## Brian Walker

You can actually do either....they both work, but I think you'll find that the 2:1 will not discolor some of the "problematic dyes" as much. Plus you get a little more mileage and it works the same...


----------



## islandtees

The 2 parts water 1 part pretreat.I guess your talking about the Brother Pre treat concentrate and not the premixed version .


----------



## Brian Walker

Yes. The Brother concentrate only. You cant get the premixed anymore..... and if you do get it, it is probably a couple months old....  I don't think the premix is available at all and it was a one to one solution.


----------



## loloxa

As Brian said 1 jug of pretreat 2 of distilled water, no olive.

As a testimony of my viper I'll say that I did not clean the machine for 4 months and was still running top notch until I realized that it also had a maintenance procedure I had to follow. 

I just love that it is an electric motor machine without the compressor, so quiet.

Also I only run into the delayed nozzle issue when spraying under 20, over 21 I guess there is enough liquid pressure to spray. 

Fanboyism ends.



Brian Walker said:


> A good 230V good recovery press should allow you to keep up with the Brother in sync


I'm looking at another press because mine cannot keep up, but I wonder if any press can. 

The pretreat is pretty wet and my press can take 3 shirts in a row but after that I'm down to 338 from 365, it does not drop beyond that but I bet those 27 degrees matter. So I'm trying to find something that will hold the temp at 365 no matter what. any suggestions forum? trying to stay away from compressors so manual preferred, also auto release would be a plus.

OT: To the issue of edibility, I don't know what might happen if you drink the pretreat but it has this very sweet smell, I think it smells like banana, not that it matters much, but when you are around chemical vapors all day long it just nice that they do not smell like poison.


----------



## WholesalePrint

Briaaaaan Wassup!!!


----------



## Brian Walker

The air driven heat press will do a better job, but the manuals suffice. The print quality will be better though, just bear that in mind.

Some people devote 2 heat presses to the Pretreatment so as to keep the temperature up and keep things moving...

A good 230V will/should heat better and faster....

and......

WASSSSUUUUPPPPP!!!!!?!?!??!


----------



## Printzilla

I am glad to hear 2/1 works so well. I have an auto air press arriving on Monday along with my Viper. My manual presses drop about 1 degree every 3 seconds, both brands (hotronix, knight).


----------



## Printzilla

The more I print with this machine, the more I come to realize how similar to screen printing it is, and how dissimilar it is to epson/dupont printing. The lay down of the white base on this printer is so similar to the under base in screen printing. For those of you not familiar with screen printing, the white under base on a dark shirt with simulated process is actually much closer to gray than a bright white. This allows the shading and detail to work properly. The Brother is much the same. All of the designs I print that were built for screen printing simulated process on dark garments, look incredible on the Brother. The designs that are created with a solid or nearly solid ultra white backgrounds look good, but not incredible. 

As an example, the Great Dane art prints awesome. It was originally designed for process screening on dark garments. A flat vector ai/corel type design, does not print as well. The color gamut of the cmyk inks is less than the dupont, but this is largely due to the darker blacks and yellows, which are among the most common colors in garment decoration. This creates a trade off of excellent results from a couple of the most popular colors, at the cost of a more difficulty in replicating pink and purples. 

Overall I am extremely happy with the 782 so far. I think this machine holds true the tenant that you have to understand the strengths and weaknesses of your equipment, and use that to your advantage. I know when the cheerleader team calls and wants pink lettering on a black baby doll, the 782 is not the piece of equipment for the job. However, when I can show them a rocking sweet multicolor design for not much more than a standard pink lettering job, I am likely to convert them. This leads to other teams seeing the design and in turn more business for me. 

Zilla


----------



## loloxa

Printzilla said:


> I am glad to hear 2/1 works so well.


By all means try it out first. Use a smaller container to do the mix, since the viper allows for two inputs of pretreat you could use one for 1:1 and the other more diluted and see the results for yourself.


----------



## Brian Walker

Just a heads up. If you are looking to do a lot of cool fade outs on shirt colors other than black, I wrote an article about it here. 

Black fade outs for flames etc are a cinch. Other colors require a little thought and work (sort of like screen printing - just like you said PrintZ)

I think you'll find this to be a good starting point to help you create some other really killer designs. It is mainly focused on when you want to fade out any color in a multi-color/simulated process print. You'll get the drift though as you read through it.


----------



## crewchief97

How is the maintenance on the 782 compared to a 541? Also thanks for starting this tread very informative.


----------



## Printzilla

The maintenance is slightly more involved, but so far works perfectly. I have the luxury of having my shop on my property, a hundred feet from my house. This allows me to split my printing up through out the day and night. This helps keep the ink flowing and curbs any issues. 

It is early in my ownership, and I will have more to report as time goes by.


----------



## acca

Printzilla said:


> A flat vector ai/corel type design, does not print as well. The color gamut of the cmyk inks is less than the dupont, but this is largely due to the darker blacks and yellows, which are among the most common colors in garment decoration. This creates a trade off of excellent results from a couple of the most popular colors, at the cost of a more difficulty in replicating pink and purples.


This is the part that is most interesting for me. I think most dtg printers do a fine job of printing photos and images with a lot of different colors and gradations. What is difficult especially with our current machine is printing images with large areas of solid colors without banding, we would have to run a head clean every 3 or 4 shirts to fix the problem. Our customer base is an even blend of people who want a photo on a shirt to those who want vectored designs, so a machine that can handle both tasks equally well will probably be our next machine.

Our business model is based on lower volume with higher profit per garment so using the 782 which is built for production, may not be right for our company's needs at this time. If one can't take advantage of the bulk ink prices then the cost of printing becomes perhaps prohibitive? Thanks Zilla, I guess we are now leaning away from the 782 and towards an epson based printer. But it's hard because I love the hand and washability of the 782 prints. I am hoping once we get our samples with the dupont inks, the prints will hold up reasonably close to those of the brother machine.


----------



## islandtees

This is why we just purchased the Brother 782.We were not happy with the wash results from the Epson Based printers compared to the 782.


----------



## Printzilla

Perhaps my previous post was a little misleading. I have a vector design done entirely in illustrator that looks awesome. However, it is made with shading and gradient fills. These look fantastic. The big blocks of color, those that would look great if done in vinyl, are the ones that do not look as stellar. In my opinion, those designs should just be done in heat press vinyl, or traditional spot color screen printing. Vinyl for low quantity and one offs, and screen print for medium to large runs. Remember, you have a tool box for producing shirts. While a hammer can drive a screw into wood, it isn't the best tool in the box for the job.


----------



## Printzilla

Uploaded some more pics. A pink shirt withe Great Dane Turtle, and a black and white photo on a black shirt, using the shirt for the black. 

Picasa Web Albums - Marc Bryan - Drop Box


----------



## Printzilla

The Viper just arrived. I have put the stand together, which was very easy. I will write a quick review tonight after using it for a few hours.


----------



## Printzilla

I had a small snag setting up the Viper. I could not get the PT to fill. I called Viper and left a message. They called me back in just a few minutes to walk me through the issue. Turns out that I had a hose not properly inserted. Took about 5 seconds to fix it. Kudos for the quick return call to Brian Walker. It took several prime cycles to get the air out of the lines, and get a smooth fluid lay down. 

I put it through a mini workout. I pretreated 12 full backs, and on the fronts of those 12 shirts I used the selectable nozzle patterns, and spray options to do left chest, right chest, middle chest, etc......it performed great. I had smooth, even pretreat that printed great. 

I then ran the cleaning sequence. It took about six minutes to run through the sequence. I really like the fact that the Viper pulls the pretreatment out of the line and returns it to the original container. I also think this unit wastes less PT, because of the multiple nozzles, and the ability to have those nozzles much closer to the shirt. 

This unit has a lot more to go through before getting my complete stamp of approval, but as of now, I really like it, and so far, I am happy I went this route.


----------



## WholesalePrint

Welcome to the darkside


----------



## Printzilla

I also got an opportunity to use my new heat press. I love it. It is nice to just hit two buttons and let the air do the work, instead of my back. I will never buy another manual press. Once my manuals need replacing, it will be with an auto air swinger!


----------



## BritchesnStitche

Printzilla, thank you for such a great thread. I have been looking at the 782 for almost a year. But, I don't have it in the budget to get one. So, for now, I need to contract those services out. But I am going to earmark this thread for later use. You have a lot of useful information in this thread, both from you and from others. Now if I could only find a reasonable DTG printer that does great work.....


----------



## Printzilla

I like to think I am both reasonable and good at what I do....


----------



## Printzilla

I am doing my first weekly maintainence as I type this. It takes about 15 minutes per line, so a total of an hour. It is amazing how clean it gets the lines. They look like they are brand new.


----------



## sealove

Could you PM on how much you paid for your DTG and Viper? Thanks


----------



## stix

Seaoflove,

I think a better angle would be to contact 3 vendors as Printzilla did and work your best deal with vendor you select.


----------



## islandtees

That is what we did for the best price.


----------



## sealove

Could you recommend me some good vendors?


----------



## Smckee21

I bought mine through Nazdar, I was really pleased with the service and price I received.


----------



## stix

Direct2Shirt (Brian Walker)
Nazdar
Axiom America
Stich City

It will all depend on your location.. Where are you located?


----------



## sealove

I am located in Japan but will be moving to South America soon and want to buy some tech to take with me on the way there. And I want to buy in the US coz of good exchange rate now.


----------



## Stitch-Up

Would be intresting to compare the price here in the UK with you guys in the US. As we have little competition between suppliers, I guess it will cost us considerably more.


----------



## Printzilla

Just finished my morning printing. The Viper fired right up, and laid down a smooth pretreat. The indicators for the white ink level dropped to the half way mark. I have printed 178 prints. Most of them at least 10x12, and several larger, and lots of coverage. So far I feel pretty food about the ink usage.


----------



## TPrintDesigner

Printzilla said:


> The indicators for the white ink level dropped to the half way mark.


You took that pretty well 

After 541 ownership and getting used to the ink levels dropping very slowly I thought the 782 was broke when it dropped straight from 100% to 50%.


----------



## TPrintDesigner

Ink prices are now the same as the U.S. The pretreat, cleaning solution and other consumables are much higher.





Stitch-Up said:


> Would be intresting to compare the price hear in the UK with you guys in the US. As we have little competition between suppliers, I guess it will cost us considerably more.


----------



## Stitch-Up

TPrintDesigner said:


> Ink prices are now the same as the U.S. The pretreat, cleaning solution and other consumables are much higher.


What about the Viper pre-treater - I'd love one 

I haven't been able to find carts of Dupont inks for my Epson 4880 DTG in the UK.


----------



## sealove

Sounds like one print on the Brother on darks will be costly? I saw that one cartridge of 500mls ink will cost about 350bucks.
Sorry for the typo. It was supposed to be a 3 and not a 2


----------



## Brian Walker

White ink bought by the cart is $300. CMY is $350 and black is $330 but you have to purchase two cleaning/wiper kits at $30 each. 

FAILURE TO CLEAN YOUR MACHINE WHEN USING THE LARGE BLACK INKS WILL EVENTUALLY CAUSE YOU ISSUES! A lot of people just clean it once or forget to clean it. With the 500cc black ink carts you have to clean it when you change the cartridge out, and then half way through usage. 

Don't forget. Don't think you can get away with it..... you'll find you have a bigger mess, literally, than you will want to deal with.


----------



## Brian Walker

When the art is designed correctly, most people can get away, including pretreat, white ink, cmyk usually around $2.50 - $4.00 a print. Depends on how you do the art. I've done stuff that is about $1.50 but I made great use of negative space....


----------



## sealove

Can you use compatible inks? Or replace inks and refill the cartridges yourself?


----------



## Brian Walker

sealove said:


> Can you use compatible inks? Or replace inks and refill the cartridges yourself?


The problem with doing third party inks would be the possibility of intercoatal adhesion between the white ink and the CMYK... that might be one issue. Besides, unless you have a professional refilling station, debris and air could cause issues in the system. 

Anytime you mix white ink, cmyk and the pretreatment combinations you can run into big issues.


----------



## Printzilla

That seems about right, based on my experience so far. If I have used half my ink for around 170 shirts, that would be around $3.00, based on buying the white ink in bulk 10 cart cases.


----------



## Brian Walker

Pkus remember that the tube lines for the GT-782 are a LOT longer than for the 541, and there are 4 white ink carts, so you are having to fill the lines with white ink that is "in limbo" from the ink cart.... i.e. you will use it but it has to be there first before you can print....

So, there's a fair number of shirts there too that can be accounted for with the initial ink introduction.


----------



## Printzilla

I spent most of today recording information about the pretreatment. After experimenting all day with different levels of pretreatment, I have dialed it in to a point where I am happy with it. Running the Viper on a fluid lay down level of 25 deposits 14-15 grams of fluid. I find this to be acceptable on light shirts (pink, sand, light blue, etc..). Calculating the way I mix my fluid, and figuring in a safety net of 20%, this costs me around $0.25. For dark color shirts, I run the Viper with a setting of 45. This deposits 25-26 grams of fluid, which costs me $0.45. For dark shirts that have large areas of exposed white in the print, I get slightly better results in the white if I run the Viper at 65. 

Zilla


----------



## bob emb

Printzilla I thought you died and went to FLA. Sold my KORNIT to another Kornit guy and we are partnering up. If you get a hance give me a call 973-764-3840.

Glad to see you did not expire like old ink.

Bob
Contract dtg


----------



## vctradingcubao

bob emb said:


> ..Sold my KORNIT to another Kornit guy and we are partnering up..


what happened Bob?


----------



## islandtees

Printzilla,how are you mixing your pretreat?(ratio wise)


----------



## Printzilla

Right now, I am mixing it 1.5 to 1. I will continue adding more water as I proceed with my testing. Brother recommends 1:1, and I know some users are doing 2:1.


----------



## DAGuide

Printzilla said:


> Brother recommends 1:1, and I know some users are doing 2:1.


You might want to double check this. Last I heard, it was 2 parts water and 1 part concentrated pretreatment. I could be wrong. Ask your distributor.

Mark


----------



## Brian Walker

Officially the Brother pretreat can be mixed anywhere 1:1 or 1:2 (pretreat to water). There is not much of a difference between the two except milage, and better results on the lighter/more difficult dyed shirt colors where you get better results the hier the ratio within those limits. 

I know most people I am familiar with are all doing the 1:2 with great results.


----------



## Printzilla

DAGuide said:


> You might want to double check this. Last I heard, it was 2 parts water and 1 part concentrated pretreatment. I could be wrong. Ask your distributor.
> 
> Mark


I was told by my installer, and then we mixed it together at 1:1 for use during the install and training.


----------



## jamesnaisang

I am currently looking at the 782 and Viper DTG. In my opinion, the whites on the 782 are not as bright as the Epson white. What are your thoughts on this? Do clients comment on this?


----------



## loloxa

Printzilla said:


> I spent most of today recording information about the pretreatment. After experimenting all day with different levels of pretreatment, I have dialed it in to a point where I am happy with it. Running the Viper on a fluid lay down level of 25 deposits 14-15 grams of fluid. I find this to be acceptable on light shirts (pink, sand, light blue, etc..). Calculating the way I mix my fluid, and figuring in a safety net of 20%, this costs me around $0.25. For dark color shirts, I run the Viper with a setting of 45. This deposits 25-26 grams of fluid, which costs me $0.45. For dark shirts that have large areas of exposed white in the print, I get slightly better results in the white if I run the Viper at 65.
> 
> Zilla


65? truly this machine gives the word "versatile" a whole new meaning, I run my darks at 21-25 at 1:2 and my results are very satisfactory (white looks perfect an even). I would imagine that at 65 once cured your t-shirt feels pretty rigid as cardboard, for the sake of empiricity I'll try this setting to see if I can achieve better results.


----------



## Brian Walker

I went digging through my emails to help settle the matter of the ratio mix. Here is what I found directly from Brother, April 22nd, 2010:

_*New instructions label will be ‐ "Please dilute PRETREATMENT (CONDENSED
TYPE): GC‐51P2L in the range of 1:1 ‐ 1:2 with distilled water either by
measuring weight or volume. Then stir well and use up promptly."*_

_Volume: 48L (52kg)
=> 16L (20kg) CPT + 16L (16kg) distilled water + 16L (16kg) distilled water_

There might still be some labels out there that don't have this, but I would say that would be a rarity. I hope this helps.


----------



## Printzilla

loloxa said:


> 65? truly this machine gives the word "versatile" a whole new meaning, I run my darks at 21-25 at 1:2 and my results are very satisfactory (white looks perfect an even). I would imagine that at 65 once cured your t-shirt feels pretty rigid as cardboard, for the sake of empiricity I'll try this setting to see if I can achieve better results.


I think the important thing is grams of fluid, not the viper setting. Do you have a scale that measures in grams? Can you measure a shirt pre spray, them post spray on 25 and see how many grams it adds? This would tell the true story.


----------



## Printzilla

jamesnaisang said:


> I am currently looking at the 782 and Viper DTG. In my opinion, the whites on the 782 are not as bright as the Epson white. What are your thoughts on this? Do clients comment on this?


 There is no question. The dupont white is much brighter. This is not only my opinion, but backed up by my spectrophotometer. I choose better hand and washability, and more speed. The only place anyone notices is large blocks of solid white.


----------



## TPrintDesigner

If I run 65 then the shirt gets soaked. My lights are 25-35 and darks 50.

Mix ratio is 2-1


----------



## Printzilla

So......I printed some shirts last night, but did not cure them, I just let them air dry. When I cured them this morning they held really bright reds and blues. It goes to show how important it is to evaporate the water, while leaving the pigments behind. I have not cranked up my dryer yet, but that is scheduled for tomorrow.


----------



## vctradingcubao

Printzilla said:


> So......I printed some shirts last night, but did not cure them, I just let them air dry. When I cured them this morning they held really bright reds and blues. It goes to show how important it is to evaporate the water, while leaving the pigments behind. I have not cranked up my dryer yet, but that is scheduled for tomorrow.


Interesting... are they dark shirts with white ink?


----------



## Printzilla

Yes they were.


----------



## Printzilla

I took a 144 piece order today. The design had about 25% solid white in a large section. I printed a sample and took it to him. He liked it and placed the order on the spot. This is a full back and front pocket. I will be printing them next week and will write a post about the 782 and viper on a production run.


----------



## WholesalePrint

What was the quote?


----------



## PPop

Brian Walker said:


> When the art is designed correctly, most people can get away, including pretreat, white ink, cmyk usually around $2.50 - $4.00 a print. Depends on how you do the art. I've done stuff that is about $1.50 but I made great use of negative space....


Plus - Never forget that it costs $50 per day on a $52,000 Machine. So if you print 25 shirts per day, that = $2 per shirt more...

I've concluded, with nods by insiders, that it costs $5 per print for the Brother 782 on Black for approximately 9x12 prints.


----------



## Printzilla

That has certainly not been my experience thus far. Where in the world do you get $50/day? So far mine has been less than that. I think it is closer to $15 for me up to this point. I will of course have better numbers after a few more weeks. I know that when my white carts hit half way, I had done around 160 prints, over 90% 12x10 or larger, some even full platen, along with a weekly line clean. I purposely printed large art to get a realistic feel for cost. Coverage varies of course, but it is a lot of great dane art, and poster type prints. Half of my white ink carts is a cost of $450. Divide that by 170 shirts and you get less than $3.00 per print, and that includes head cleanings, initial fill, and weekly maintenance. Add in $0.50 for pretreat and I am still under $3.50.

Even the most expensive full coverage big prints are costing less than $6.00 all in, based on bulk ink purchasing. I cannot remember my most expensive print, but I think it was around 12cc. I will RIP one tomorrow that is just a full square at 14x16 to see what it would cost. 

If Brother could reduce the ink by about 1/3, and devise a way to reclaim all of the ink used in daily/weekly maintenance, they would really have a great machine. 

This may not hold up over the next few weeks, but it will surprise me if it varies greatly. I can say at this point that I would bet a rather large amount that a 12x9 print does not cost $5 in ink. Maybe if you factor in power, labor, PT, machine wear and tear, waste, maintenance, ink, and lease payment (if you have one).


----------



## GraphicDisorder

Printzilla said:


> That has certainly not been my experience thus far. Where in the world do you get $50/day?


 
Just Guessing but he may be talking about cost to finance the machine. That figure has to come into play somewhere even if he isn't talking about that.

Unless you were bold enough to pay cash for it, if so bravo!


----------



## jamesnaisang

GraphicDisorder said:


> Just Guessing



Great point! People who don't own the 782 are just guessing. 

Thanks for your work, Marc!


----------



## GraphicDisorder

jamesnaisang said:


> Great point! People who don't own the 782 are just guessing.
> 
> Thanks for your work, Marc!


Ya people that dont own the 782 would in no way know anything about cost to own something, you know simple math. /end sarcasm. 

Which has nothing to do with your point, which would be cost to run it which yes only a 782 owner would really know.


----------



## islandtees

This diary would be better posted by owners of 782's to give those looking at one some owner thoughts.Those that dont own them shouldnt speculate what they dont know about the costs.


----------



## sealove

I think 50 bucks a day was meant to say what would cost to repay the 54k you paid for the printer in about 3 years. Like having your initial investment back into your pocket.


----------



## WholesalePrint

I agree unless you own one your really not qualified to claim what costs are . I know cost per isn't $5 but becude of potential customers o refuse t discussactual numbers.


----------



## Brian Walker

Wow... not enough coffee this morning sir I know i tca n bet oug hin the mornings...


----------



## Don-ColDesi

I do not own a 782 - but - the machine costs somewhere around $55,000. If you want recoup the machine costs over, say, a three year period that would translate into 750 "work" days (50 weeks at 5 days per week for 3 years). That number (without any financing costs figured in) comes to $73.33 per day for the cost of the equipment (not including any supplies, consumables or power consumption numbers). I'm not bashing the machine or its abilities, but the numbers are the numbers, and the number I use above is based on "cash up front" or 0% financing over 3 years - neither of which are realistic for most end users so you would need to figure some level of finance expense. Even when the entire purchase amount is written off at a 33% tax rate the daliy (work days) cost of owning a 782 is $48.91 when spread over 3 years. 

Can these costs be justified? That must be evaluated on a case by case basis. I am certain that there are cases where they can. You have to do your own numbers to confirm.


----------



## sealove

Why do people always choose a 3 year period as basis to get the initial investment back? Sounds like the darn thing will explode after 3 years of use and become useless....


----------



## Don-ColDesi

Digital technology does generally have a shorter lifespan than analog equipment. I doubt that the 782 will "explode" in three years. Brother makes a good product. The challenge is more in conjecturing about what will be the current state of direct to garment printing in 36 months. Odds are that the technology will continue to mature during that time - so the benefits of a machine purchased today for operation today will not be the same benefits 3 years from now.


----------



## Brian Walker

I agree Don. Depending on the user and their business model, it definitely is not for some people. 

However, at the numbers you gave, and we'll be generous and round it UP to $100 a day cost of ownership.....

A printed shirt finished ($2.50 shirt + $4.00 ink, etc + $ 1.00 for cost of ownership) = $7.50 cost

Selling price? Let's say $9.50 a shirt = $2.50 net per shirt

You need to print a 100 shirts a day and still make $250

Or, going off your $48.xx change amount - only 50 shirts a day. 

To run 50 shirts on the GT-782 if it is one complete run you could do it anywhere, depending on the design, in 2.5 hours to 1 hour (20-50 shirts an hour).

So, making $250 an hour wouldn't be too bad. But I don't know what PrintZ or Wholesale is charging. But, I would bet money on it they are doing fairly decent on the profit side inspite of the $50,000+ price tag.

In the end it isn't the price tag, it is what you end up making. That's the whole thing people forget about. THe printer is just a tool to produce wealth. But you have to know how to wield that tool to effectively make money. 

Spend $50,000 to make $300,000? 

But, let me say this. If you are only printing 25 shirts a week, the 782 is definitely NOT the machine for your shop.


----------



## Don-ColDesi

Thanks Brian,

Volume and margin are the important factors here. Also, you forgot the pre-treatment cost per shirt (I've heard 50 cent to $1 per full front or back), we also didn't calculate in the cost of a pretreatment machine over that period which would add another $7-10 per day for cost of ownership.

How many folks are actually printing (or turning away) 100 dark shirts per day? That becomes the main question to answer. Point being - virtually all machines in this market can make a lot of money for the user. The trick is to have a business plan in place that works and justifies the cost of the machine.


----------



## Brian Walker

That's what I always ask people - what is your business, business model, or plan? Some machines are for certain users, others are not. Depends on the who's, the what's and the how muches..


----------



## GraphicDisorder

Brian Walker said:


> I agree Don. Depending on the user and their business model, it definitely is not for some people.
> 
> However, at the numbers you gave, and we'll be generous and round it UP to $100 a day cost of ownership.....
> 
> A printed shirt finished ($2.50 shirt + $4.00 ink, etc + $ 1.00 for cost of ownership) = $7.50 cost
> 
> Selling price? Let's say $9.50 a shirt = $2.50 net per shirt
> 
> You need to print a 100 shirts a day and still make $250
> 
> Or, going off your $48.xx change amount - only 50 shirts a day.
> 
> To run 50 shirts on the GT-782 if it is one complete run you could do it anywhere, depending on the design, in 2.5 hours to 1 hour (20-50 shirts an hour).
> 
> So, making $250 an hour wouldn't be too bad. But I don't know what PrintZ or Wholesale is charging. But, I would bet money on it they are doing fairly decent on the profit side inspite of the $50,000+ price tag.
> 
> In the end it isn't the price tag, it is what you end up making. That's the whole thing people forget about. THe printer is just a tool to produce wealth. But you have to know how to wield that tool to effectively make money.
> 
> Spend $50,000 to make $300,000?
> 
> But, let me say this. If you are only printing 25 shirts a week, the 782 is definitely NOT the machine for your shop.


If you are doing that rough math. Dont forget the pretreat machine. That machine costs how much? 

I agree the 782 looks like a nice machine, I enjoy this thread, I am still of the opinion that DTG (all flavors) isn't there yet. Don's point that in 3 years the DTG market and machines will look different is correct in that respect, I would probably say much different. Just look at 3 years ago, DTG was hit and miss at best, today its much better. 

Also aren't your numbers for 1 sided prints? Many if not most shirts in the world today are still 2 sided. This would change your time estimate a lot. Thats one thing that drives me nuts about companies selling DTG machines, they often do all price/cost/time estimates off a 1 sided shirt. While there are customers out there that want that, its not all.


----------



## loloxa

Whoever buys a 782 probably has already a working business plan in effect ( like people who are already making it with the 541 and wish to upgrade). 50.000 dollars is not a hobby, but a hefty sum to toy with. If you are right now not making money printing t-shirts, why would you jump in with 4th most expensive machine on the market?. I have 5000 prints in 4 months, so I'm probably at the low end of production, but I charge accordingly, there is not a single shirt that I sell where I only make 2.50. If you are looking for bigger runs and smaller margins a silkscreen auto press costs the same ( around 50.000$ for 6 to 8 colors with dryer and flash curing) although you will not easily operate it with only two hands.


----------



## Brian Walker

I agree. I only used the $2.50 range as a starting point. For those doing contract printing it is a whole different animal from retail where you can really make out well.... nicely.

And, some shirts are front and back, others arent. I wasn't making a blanket statement, just noting speeds, etc.


----------



## Stitch-Up

This is a very interesting thread with some good points raised.

I didn't pay $55,000 for my DTG printer, I paid much less than half of that and one of the things I did consider was, could I recoup my costs & make a profit, before progress in DTG printing technology rendered my printer redundant.


----------



## Printzilla

Let me shed a different light on the subject. First, I paid cash for my printer, and I own my shop, so keep that in mind. 

I will use $60,000 as initial investment. This would include a pretreater, 782, and heat press.

Assuming I could safely get 7% on my money(which is very debatable), that $60,000 would get me $4200. Divide that by 250 working days, and you get just under $17.

Lets assume it costs $20/day to run the 782(it doesn't, but lets be conservative), add that to the $17 and you get $37.

Add $18 for one hour of labor, electricity, and misc consumables (such as parchment paper). Add that to the $37 and you get $55.

At $3 profit per shirt, I need to produce just over 18 shirts per day to break even with just letting my money sit. Lets bump it up to 20/day.

Lets say that I do the shirts myself and save the $15/day labor. Combine that with the $17/day per day I calculated I needed to match the 7% interest rate, and we have $32/day. Multiply that by 250 working days and we get $8000/year, or just at 13% return on my money. Of course we have depreciation of the equipment to factor in as well. Using the Brother 541 as a basis, lets calculate 50% value decrease over 5 years. We now have $30,000 worth of equipment and have collected $40,000 in profit for a total of $70,000. If we could earn 7%, our $60,000 would have grown to over $84,000 if we reinvested the interest.

Lets add $1 in profit per shirt to the equation (remember, this is average profit per shirt, some will be as high as $15, some maybe as low as $2). Over five years that is an additional $25,000. Then add just five extra shirts per day, and you tack on another $25,000. So now we are up to $120,000 in five years, at only an hours worth of printing a day! For me it was a no brainer.

What Brian and Don posted rings very true. Everyone's situation will be completely different. If you have to add a 10% equipment lease and $1000 a month rent to the equation, now you need an extra 25 shirts a day.

Also, ask yourself, is it better for me to give up $2-4 per shirt ,save the $60,000, and just have Printzilla print them?  LOL


----------



## Printzilla

Also, on the front/back issue, I do not see much of a profit difference. I make sure I charge accordingly.


----------



## Diver86

sealove said:


> Can you use compatible inks? Or replace inks and refill the cartridges yourself?


*DO NOT use 3rd. party inks in the GT-782. The chemistry involved in the PT/White and the intercoat adhesion of the W & CMYK has been designed by chemical engineers at Brother to be 100% compatible.
DO NOT use 3rd. Party PT fluid for the same reason.

I have personally tested GT-782 White ink with other PT fluids like: Viper Venom WHITE, Dupont and other 3rd, Party manufacturers and they are NOT COMPATIBLE.

In addition, the Generic Sawgrass ink cartridges for Brother GT-541 will not fit in the GT-782*


----------



## Don-ColDesi

> *Add $18 for one hour of labor*, electricity, and misc consumables (such as parchment paper). Add that to the $37 and you get $55.
> 
> At $3 profit per shirt, I need to produce just over 18 shirts per day to break even with just letting my money sit. Lets bump it up to 20/day.
> 
> *Lets say that I do the shirts myself and save the $15/day labor*.


Zilla - you're worth more than $3 an hour, I'd easily go $5


----------



## Printzilla

Lol - it is actually about $15. With the 782 I could pretreat, print, and cure the 20 shirts in under an hour on a 10x12 design.

Then add the $3 per shirt profit, and I am at $75.

But if you want a shirt off my 782, I would do it for FREE.


----------



## Justin Walker

Don-SWF East said:


> Digital technology does generally have a shorter lifespan than analog equipment. I doubt that the 782 will "explode" in three years. Brother makes a good product. The challenge is more in conjecturing about what will be the current state of direct to garment printing in 36 months. Odds are that the technology will continue to mature during that time - so the benefits of a machine purchased today for operation today will not be the same benefits 3 years from now.


So profoundly true...... I left the Epson printing game to move over to the only "real" solutions at the time, Kornit (and then Brother); after pursuing that road for about 2-3 years (total for those two machines), I went to take a look at Epson machines again and the technology had taken huuuuuuge leaps and bounds forward..... I certainly wouldn't consider tying myself into payments that would extend further than that, for a machine that could potentially be obsolete before I am done making payments on it.

Of course, the 541 went strong for several years as Brother's flagship DTG printer, but even then it could be argued that the Epson technology had edged up with its superior print quality and improvements in ink and machine reliability...


----------



## Printzilla

I would bet that the 541 is still in the top three in units sold per month, and probably number one.


----------



## Justin Walker

GraphicDisorder said:


> Ya people that dont own the 782 would in no way know anything about cost to own something, you know simple math. /end sarcasm.
> 
> Which has nothing to do with your point, which would be cost to run it which yes only a 782 owner would really know.


This sounds like criticism I used to get, before I bought a machine..... When I was comparing "print speeds" and "ink cost" to what manufacturers and distributors would claim, the rebuttal was often "if you don't actual own a machine, your opinion doesn't matter"; now, 6 machine brands later and many of my original evaluations still hold true today...

Just because someone doesn't physically own "Brand X" printer, in their shop, it is foolish to assume that they don't have first hand knowledge or experience on that particular machine, or countless connections with actual owners to provide a wide array of feedback - often, this wide array of actual owner feedback can help people form very educated opinions by giving them a pulse of how a large test base is doing with the machine. Heck, even among ACTUAL MACHINE OWNERS there is debate back and forth about how much it costs in their environments to run the machine (see loloxa and wholesaleprint discussing this, in another thread)...... Is one more right that the other, because they both own machines to validate their positions?

If I wanted to buy a Ferrari, which I don't currently own (in case you didn't guess)  I bet you I could go do a little work and get a very accurate feel for what the monthly and yearly maintenance would cost, long before I ever owned the car........


----------



## Justin Walker

Printzilla said:


> I would bet that the 541 is still in the top three in units sold per month, and probably number one.


Highest number of sales certainly doesn't equate to "top machine"..... My point was, that a few years ago I was convinced that the Brother printer was the best option for light-garment-only printing; skip forward a bit, and my current printer choices would blow it out of the water with print quality, and with our new closed ink systems we have been having almost ZERO issues with the ink - what held true three years ago does NOT hold true, today. Who knows where we will be in three more years....... Under $1 in ink, for dark shirts???? No pretreatment for darks???????


----------



## Printzilla

I was making the point that five years later the 541 is still selling well enough that obviously it is not outdated equipment 5 years later.


----------



## Stitch-Up

Stitch-Up said:


> This is a very interesting thread with some good points raised.
> 
> I didn't pay $55,000 for my DTG printer, I paid much less than half of that and one of the things I did consider was, could I recoup my costs & make a profit, before progress in DTG printing technology rendered my printer redundant.


I didn't want, or intend to sound critical of anyone spending $55,000 on a DTG printer, that certainly wasn't my intention!

In Printzilla's case, he already has an established market and years of experience and has probably printed more shirts in one day than I've printed in the past 10 weeks! Our business models are completely different.

I also paid for my equipment up front and don't have to make monthly payments to any finance house.


----------



## IYFGraphics

Justin Walker said:


> Just because someone doesn't physically own "Brand X" printer, in their shop, it is foolish to assume that they don't have first hand knowledge or experience on that particular machine, or countless connections with actual owners to provide a wide array of feedback - often, this wide array of actual owner feedback can help people form very educated opinions by giving them a pulse of how a large test base is doing with the machine. Heck, even among ACTUAL MACHINE OWNERS there is debate back and forth about how much it costs in their environments to run the machine (see loloxa and wholesaleprint discussing this, in another thread)...... Is one more right that the other, because they both own machines to validate their positions?


And to add to Justin's post a little, informative threads like this one with real users sharing their experiences also adds to the validity of a non-users opinion.

JMHO


----------



## GraphicDisorder

Printzilla said:


> I was making the point that five years later the 541 is still selling well enough that obviously it is not outdated equipment 5 years later.


Depends on how you look at it. I would suggest that any printer today that can't print on black shirts is outdated, that doesn't mean though that you cant sell a ton of lighter color shirts with it and make money. For sure you can and people do it all the time.


----------



## Justin Walker

Printzilla said:


> I was making the point that five years later the 541 is still selling well enough that obviously it is not outdated equipment 5 years later.


This is true... Not being the "latest and greatest" does not necessarily indicate something has become outdated.


----------



## Printzilla

Or that you can't make good money with it. I bet I could make 50k a year with a heat press and an original tjet with no white ink.


----------



## allamerican-aeoon

All I want to say is best ROI is Small in Big out or Small in and get same money out as Big in guys or more. Am I wrong? Marc calculation: I think any DTG owners can do that if they have job to print. Problem is having job to print or not. Math is only on paper. Money in the pocket counts. Never same.
If same we all are very RICH by now.


----------



## Printzilla

I agree Peter. I think people spend more time researching printers, and less time learning about sales. The best advice I ever received.....nothing in life happens without a sale being made, it may not be money for product, but a sale is always made. 

Personally, if I was just starting out, and had less than $30,000 in my budget, I would spend it on something besides a printer. Spend it on marketing materials, advertising, samples, etc....the things that actually make money. Then once you have a large enough clientele to justify not only a printer, but someone to run it(because you still need to be making sales), then research and buy a printer. 

But hey...what do I know?


----------



## vctradingcubao

Printzilla said:


> If Brother could ..... devise a way to reclaim all of the ink used in daily/weekly maintenance, they would really have a great machine.


this must be on top of the wish list of every DTG and wide format printer owner for a long time now...


----------



## Diver86

*This thread seems to be drifting off base from the original intent.

Zilla, get us back on track with the diary..... you are doing such a great job, I was feeling like I was in your shop the whole time.

........... what happened on October 7....did you press the two buttons on the heat press, or spray the Viper, or print a shirt? 

We're gonna start a new reality show with you: "Housewives of the DTG printer" *


----------



## Printzilla

Ok...I have some ink waste info. I have had the printer for 10 days. During that 10 days I have printed over 200 shirts. I have collected 656 grams of waste in the white waste tank. Included in this is waste is 300 grams of maintainence fluid, that leaves 356 grams of white ink. One gram of water is equal to 1ml of water. I am sure that the brother white ink weighs more than 1 gram per ml, because of the pigment, however I will be using the 1:1 ratio for this discussion. 

356/10=35.6ml per day

35.6ml *.45=$16.02 per day in ink that goes down the tube. This figure includes one weekly tube cleaning. 

Disclaimer: this is my experience, in my environment, on my 782. YMMV!


----------



## islandtees

Are you retrieving every day or every few days?


----------



## dragonknight

Justin Walker said:


> Who knows where we will be in three more years....... Under $1 in ink, for dark shirts????


I am waiting for that day also, just like an old day with screen printing (low ink and material cost compare with DTG)


----------



## loloxa

Printzilla said:


> Ok...I have some ink waste info. I have had the printer for 10 days. During that 10 days I have printed over 200 shirts. I have collected 656 grams of waste in the white waste tank. Included in this is waste is 300 grams of maintainence fluid, that leaves 356 grams of white ink. One gram of water is equal to 1ml of water. I am sure that the brother white ink weighs more than 1 gram per ml, because of the pigment, however I will be using the 1:1 ratio for this discussion.
> 
> 356/10=35.6ml per day
> 
> 35.6ml *.45=$16.02 per day in ink that goes down the tube. This figure includes one weekly tube cleaning.
> 
> Disclaimer: this is my experience, in my environment, on my 782. YMMV!


So you got yourself the rechargeable set up for the white ink? ( since at .45¢ cc you are way below the .60¢ a cc from the carts), would you mind sharing a picture of the contraption? how long does the ink last in the bigger container( caducity date)? is there a mechanism that will shake the ink while is kept on the jar/container? thanks


----------



## DAGuide

loloxa,

I can tell you a little bit about the bulk white ink system for the Brother, but I don't have any pictures to share. It is really two parts: the machine (reminds me of a microwave type machine) and the bulk bottle / stand. There are two lines that go from the machine to/from the bulk bottle. The bulk bottle is molded at the bottom of it to funnel into the bottom line to prevent settling from happening. (The bottom of the bulk bottle is not flat and needs to sit in the special stand to stay upright. The bottom line then goes to the machine where the ink is degassed and fills the cartridge. There is a slot in the front of the machine that you can slide your cartridge into. The other line goes from the machine to the bulk bottle and is used to automatically recirculate the white ink periodically to keep it mixed up. The only real maintenance that I have heard you need to do is once every 5 days or so is it is recommended to manually shake the bulk bottle for approximately 30 seconds. Other than that, it is pretty simple machine / process.

Mark


----------



## loloxa

Mark,I'd thank you twice if I could. I cannot believe how hard it has been to get some details about this.It is still to no avail outside the US, so I'll have to wait until it is tested and finally brought outside of north america. Now if anyone can share a pic that would make my day. 

Whithout trying to flame, but in all the numbers( costs) where the ink comes from the refillable source and hence cheaper, for the sake of accountability the costs of the rental should be added to the ink and then divided by the usage, then we would get better cost per CC , in the end IMHO that cost belongs to the white ink. 

regards


----------



## Belquette

> Now if anyone can share a pic that would make my day.


We have a large mod 1 customer that did use a Brother refill machine, It was next to the mod1' ink. 
It did need a bit of care from what I recall.
I do have a pic but that should would be better from another source, sorry.


----------



## Diver86

*Commercial users can buy full cases of white ink at a discount. 
Although the cost savings are better, don't forget that the white ink has an expiration date.
Users have 3 choices of buying white ink. Single carts, carts in qty and bulk ink filling. 

Ask your Dealer*


----------



## WholesalePrint

Mark, I bit care how ? Please explain cause ee have one and i want to know your customer means by a bit care.


----------



## Printzilla

I do not have the refill station. I am buying bulk carts. The refill station would only lower the cost about $0.04/ml once you add the $200 lease, at the volume I plan on using starting out. It was not worth it to me.


----------



## loloxa

Printzilla said:


> I do not have the refill station. I am buying bulk carts. The refill station would only lower the cost about $0.04/ml once you add the $200 lease, at the volume I plan on using starting out. It was not worth it to me.


 At What quantity is your buy considered bulk?


----------



## Belquette

> Mark, I bit care how ? Please explain cause ee have one and i want to know your customer means by a bit care.


The bulk ink needs to be shaken like all white ink does, no different then any other.
From what they told me the care was keeping crust form forming since the container that holds the ink to be filled is open to atmosphere.
There where also some filters that needed to be addressed frequently.
This information is just from their maintenance staff since I have no experience with that unit, but since they have both Mod1's and 782's I know all about their own diary...with both.


----------



## allamerican-aeoon

_"35.6ml *.45=$16.02 per day in ink that goes down the tube"_

. Man~ you are the rich man. With one month waste you can have my machine (even though you do not want it even free) and change left for good family dinner. If pro spend that much how about starter?

good luck!!

Will you ever come to my shop? I want to pick your Brain. One time you post my RIP does not have preview of white layer so you are were not happy to see it. and you said $5.00 waste. If you waste (chance is slim to none, auto layer by image. But working on it because my goal is make happy all) it could be depends on size but never will reach to $5.
Compare $16(must) vs $5(slim to none) is night and day.
20 shirts/day printed with Brother machine. It sounds sweating me. You maybe also have Job shortage. It should run 24/7 with that much investment. At least 8 hours. Any printer should give users around 100ish dark print per day(depends on size). 
Here issue will be does printer will keep up. This is why people spend so much time to hunt right PRINTER.


----------



## loloxa

allamerican said:


> _"35.6ml *.45=$16.02 per day in ink that goes down the tube"_
> 
> . Man~ you are the rich man. With one month waste you can have my machine (even though you do not want it even free) and change left for good family dinner.
> 
> good luck!!


Unless your printer is 480$ (and you include dinner for 4) your statement is a flat out lie and false advertising if I have ever seen any, or I don't get why you come and write stupid jokes in this thread.

Moderator please.


----------



## Printzilla

allamerican said:


> _"35.6ml *.45=$16.02 per day in ink that goes down the tube"_
> 
> . Man~ you are the rich man.


Peter - if I had your money, I would burn mine.........


----------



## rramirez

Case pricing is based on purchasing 10 white cartridges at a time. For some people the Bulk makes sense and for others cartridge makes sense. Talk to your dealer before deciding which option works best.


----------



## vctradingcubao

Printzilla said:


> Peter - if I had your money, I would burn mine.........


May I ask what's the name of Peter's machine?


----------



## allamerican-aeoon

loloxa said:


> Unless your printer is 480$ (and you include dinner for 4) your statement is a flat out lie and false advertising if I have ever seen any, or I don't get why you come and write stupid jokes in this thread.
> 
> Moderator please.


I am not kidding. Serious. Around $400 is right number. (depend on your credit rate). $80 for dinner? No dvertising at all. $480 payment/month because $480 is wasting.
And I am not stupid joke teller to compare to many. 
I can not write here because Rodey will stop me. Contact me anytime. I want to show you I am not stupid as many think.


----------



## IYFGraphics

Neo-Flex....

Digital Printers

Hope this helps.


----------



## Printzilla

rramirez said:


> Case pricing is based on purchasing 10 white cartridges at a time. For some people the Bulk makes sense and for others cartridge makes sense. Talk to your dealer before deciding which option works best.


When we did the numbers, we determined you need to be doing over 500 dark shirts a week to justify refilling over buying bulk carts. So I probably will not consider it until I am actually doing over 600 on a regular basis.


----------



## Printzilla

Here is an image with some pricing info. I know some owners are scared to put costs up in a public forum, however, any body with two brain cells can call and get ink pricing from a Brother dealer, or send them an image and ask how much it would cost to print. My prices are my prices, and if they do not think it is fair, they are welcome to invest $60,000 in equipment to save a couple of bucks per print.

This design is 12" x10" - It costs about $2.50 to print, including pretreat. There is a lot more than the ink and pretreat that goes into the shirt, like daily waste, power, labor, etc.....but this is just pure cost of one print.


----------



## Printzilla

Here is another print. I am printing a dozen of these on thermal/long john shirts for a female fitness competition. 

8"x15"
$2.00 ink/pretreat


----------



## WholesalePrint

The thread has OFFICIALLY BEEN HIJACKED


----------



## Justin Walker

loloxa said:


> Unless your printer is 480$ (and you include dinner for 4) your statement is a flat out lie and false advertising if I have ever seen any, or I don't get why you come and write stupid jokes in this thread.
> 
> Moderator please.


I read Peter's post to mean you could buy a Neoflex for around $480 per month, which is actually right about spot on; I don't know why you would jump to calling him a lier who is false advertising, before first asking for clarification to this statement.

I don't believe Peter made any sort of joke, nor did he insult anyone or any product; in fact, all he did was point out that with the money you waste in a month on ink with the Brother, you could be making an entire payment on another machine.... Rightfully so.


----------



## Printzilla

Here is a video from start to finish, including pretreat, on the fitness fairy print.
[MEDIA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEBLIQPZhqw[/MEDIA]


----------



## Brian Walker

Nice video.... Next time you'll have to show the process of it printing in sync with both platens.... while trying to keep up pretreating and heat setting, and....eating a taco all at once....


----------



## islandtees

This thread is a diary on a 782.Not a plug for Neoflex.These companies should stay out and not hijack the tread. Peter is trying to advertise his machine at a certain payment.I dont know how J. Walker thinks Peter is right in doing this.Keep this on track for those who want to know about the 782.If you want to know about other machines go to thier treads.


----------



## sharktees

Zilla,I was told by someone at Brother corp. that your business needs to print 2000 darks a month to make the GT-782 a viable purchase,what are your thoughts on this?His main concern he said was to keep the machine running and the ink flowing to avoid the white ink blues.


----------



## zoom_monster

Brian Walker said:


> ...... and....eating a taco all at once....


Hardly enough time to enjoy a taco... can I make it print slower 

I notice on these videos that about 3/4 through the print, there is a little pause. What's up with that?

Nice thread 'zilla


----------



## Brian Walker

The pause is a routine that the GT does to wipe of excess ink from the printheads and keep it clean and printing correctly. It usually happens at the 10.5" or 11" mark in a design. 

That's normal and keeps things cooking like they should.


----------



## Printzilla

I guess it depends on your business model. If you only do retail, and profit $15 per shirt, I think you could get by with only 5 a day, if you printed them over the course of the day to keep the ink moving. 

If you only make $3 a print, you need to print 25 a day, just to make costs, if you leased. I think 2000 a month is a gross overstatement, especially without the specifics of the model. 

I think all of the printers need to run, regardless of brand.


----------



## Printzilla

I was inspired by Mark @ Belquette to post these. He printed this on the Mod1 and it looked great, so I wanted to give it a shot on the 782.


----------



## islandtees

Marc,did these pics you posted come from the Brother or are these the Mod 1 pics.If the Brother,what color shirt?


----------



## Printzilla

782 on a white shirt. I am printing a black one as well.


----------



## vctradingcubao

islandtees said:


> This thread is a diary on a 782.Not a plug for Neoflex.These companies should stay out and not hijack the tread. Peter is trying to advertise his machine at a certain payment.I dont know how J. Walker thinks Peter is right in doing this.Keep this on track for those who want to know about the 782.If you want to know about other machines go to thier treads.


sorry, but I also think Peter's comment is an acceptable and valid point for discussion on this thread also. I'll let Printzilla answer or ignore Peter's comment as he wishes but I don't think it's right to shoot down Peter's comment just like that.


----------



## PPop

Printzilla said:


> That has certainly not been my experience thus far. Where in the world do you get $50/day? .


That $50 per day would be just for the Lease payment.

50k/4yrs = 12k/yr. 12k/12mos = 1k per month. Add 8% interest on the lease and you get $1,400 per month payment.

$1,400/28 days (since we all f-bomb work 6-7 days a week) is....

$50 per day to pay just the lease.

Then add ink at $2k per gallon Inks, Print Heads at 1k each, pretreat, Labour, etc, and you get...

BTW, I personally think the Brother 782 is the best DTG out there, and would get one if I had 1/2 a chance, but, the 2x ink cost and the 3x machine cost make it unrealistic for me.


----------



## PPop

Brian Walker said:


> THe printer is just a tool to produce wealth. But you have to know how to wield that tool to effectively make money.


Unfortunately, as with everything in this "current" corporate culture, the machine does not produce wealth for anybody, except for the corporation making the tool and selling the inks...

Imagine a basic hammer for a carpenter that costs $200 a day, while the carpenter makes $200 per day... 

This is why I farm out my printing, and have waited for the $52k machine to be $25k and the ink to be $1-3 per shirt on Black...


----------



## PPop

Justin Walker said:


> If I wanted to buy a Ferrari, which I don't currently own (in case you didn't guess)  I bet you I could go do a little work and get a very accurate feel for what the monthly and yearly maintenance would cost, long before I ever owned the car........


This whole thread is GOLDEN!!!

One of my very 1st conclusions for the "T-Shirt" Industry waaay back in 1988 or so, when I got my 1st T-Shirt Catalog Printed ...

was that People who printed T-Shirts ALWAYS had 10 year old crappy cars with Plastisol stains on the seats, while the guy who had the Heildelberg offset press had the Ferrari!

Unuf Said!!


----------



## Stitch-Up

PPop said:


> This whole thread is GOLDEN!!!
> 
> was that People who printed T-Shirts ALWAYS had 10 year old crappy cars with Plastisol stains on the seats, while the guy who had the Heildelberg offset press had the Ferrari!
> 
> Unuf Said!!


I've got an Ariel Atom & no Plastisol stains on the seats - my daily drive  keeps me young!


----------



## GraphicDisorder

PPop said:


> That $50 per day would be just for the Lease payment.
> 
> 50k/4yrs = 12k/yr. 12k/12mos = 1k per month. Add 8% interest on the lease and you get $1,400 per month payment.
> 
> $1,400/28 days (since we all f-bomb work 6-7 days a week) is....
> 
> $50 per day to pay just the lease.
> 
> Then add ink at $2k per gallon Inks, Print Heads at 1k each, pretreat, Labour, etc, and you get...
> 
> BTW, I personally think the Brother 782 is the best DTG out there, and would get one if I had 1/2 a chance, but, the 2x ink cost and the 3x machine cost make it unrealistic for me.


If you missed it he said he paid cash for his, so he doesn't have that cost and bravo to that. I think adding in lease cost to that machine makes it more difficult to profit on thats for sure. 

Lease payment and waste ink alone would be like $70 a day almost. Just to turn it on, if I am reading it correctly. I am not bashing the machine, I do think its currently one of the nicer machines out there. I do find its out of reach price wise for a lot of people though. 

This thread is awesome though, I love to see real world numbers, Brother I doubt would tell us half this. 

I think the DTG market will change drastically going forward. Machines will become cheaper, white ink on blacks will improve even more, quality of print/machines will go up, and ink costs over all will come down. Just look at the DTG market 3-4 years ago. Then look at it today.


----------



## loloxa

Justin Walker said:


> I read Peter's post to mean you could buy a Neoflex for around $480 per month, which is actually right about spot on; I don't know why you would jump to calling him a lier who is false advertising, before first asking for clarification to this statement.
> 
> I don't believe Peter made any sort of joke, nor did he insult anyone or any product; in fact, all he did was point out that with the money you waste in a month on ink with the Brother, you could be making an entire payment on another machine.... Rightfully so.


C'mon you really don't see his sales pitch in his comment?

English is not by FAR my mother tongue, but When I read peter saying "with one month waste" not "with your monthly waste" it just looks like he is advertising that his machine cost is 480 bucks, hence why I asked why was he joking. Also all the references in his post about pros and beginners, is not hard to read between the lines that he is trying to make the case that the brothers is for pros only and his is better suited in case you are reading this thread do not want to spend 50.000+ and are looking for a machine. Sorry I offended the lot but I see peter doing a shameful badly covered plug of his machine where he even says, his has almost no waste ( would be a first) and felt like calling it out, this is no house of commons or senate, so not seeing eye to eye and slaps on the hands are all over the place.. I can be rude, but his style is weak,manufacturers who have a strong product should not have o resort to buy mine look how bad theirs is, sorry to all the offended souls.

782: Before the first print of the day ( if you have not retrieved the ink) or after being idle the machine procures a strong head clean where ink is ran through the lines for 4 seconds, if instead before printing,you do a manual normal head clean of all the heads ,where ink only runs one second, the waiting time and waste will be shorter. I have been doing this for 2 weeks and have not seen any adverse effects.


----------



## Brian Walker

If you do a fair amount of printing the day before you can skip a day's ink retrieval and just go right to printing the next day, providing you are going to be printing. That will help avoid wasted ink on the retrieval. I wouldn't do that every day, but you can skip a day or so. But never skip the weekly cleaning.


----------



## jamesnaisang

I have a question about registration on the 782. In this post, the owner was having issues with the machine having random registration issues midway through their print cycle. Zilla, have you experienced this during your first 2 weeks of printing?


----------



## loloxa

jamesnaisang said:


> I have a question about registration on the 782. In this post, the owner was having issues with the machine having random registration issues midway through their print cycle. Zilla, have you experienced this during your first 2 weeks of printing?


no to preempt zillas answer but check the picture in post 182 in this thread. You can see the white underbase in the left part of the ellipse, so I guess he is also dealing with registration.


----------



## Brian Walker

I helped another user about a week ago that had some "registration issues" with their 782. Here's what some people experience. 

Since the pretreatment is designed to help the white ink stay on top of the shirt and also bind to the shirt AND because it is a wataerbased product that is cured and to be completely dry when printed on this sometimes can cause an issue. 

Here's some factors that play into this:
- the weight of the shirt. A lighter weight shirt will be affected more
- the dimensional stability of the fabric being printed on
- the total image area of the white ink and its density when being printed
- if there is CMYK being printed on top of the white ink
- the amount of pretreatment applied to the garment. 

Because the pretreatment is "dry" and the white ink is "water based" the natural tendency of the pretreat is to swell as it comes into contact with the white ink and absorbs some of the water/ink. On dimensionally unstable fabrics (all fabrics are to some extent as we are talking strictly about garments here) the white ink will cause the shirt to then swell and physically (though very slightly) move on the platen.

When the CMYK is then printed the registration can be sometimes seen. This is part of the reason there is a choke for the white under base on the GT 782 print driver. However, sometimes due a combination of large white ink areas in the print as well as unstable fabrics (and depending on how much white ink and how much pretreatment were iapplied) you can run into a "misregistration" issue.

Most people will refer to this misregistration issue as a machine issue. In reality it is not true. It is just the combination of factors building up to the printed shirt. 

*The solution?* Take the platen off the printer and lightly spray it with a spray tack adhesive mist like is used for screen printing. This will help hold the shirt in place as the white ink is printed. 

Whamo! Issue resolved. 

I told a very high volume user about this as they asked me why their machine was doing this same exact problem. They followed the Rx and haven't had that issue since.

Simple physics...


----------



## jamesnaisang

Brian Walker said:


> *The solution?* Take the platen off the printer and lightly spray it with a spray tack adhesive mist like is used for screen printing. This will help hold the shirt in place as the white ink is printed.
> 
> Whamo! Issue resolved.



782 owners who have had registration issues, does this resolve your issue with registration?


----------



## islandtees

Brian,I would think 2 sided sticky paper used in screenprinting would also work.Less messy.


----------



## loloxa

Slow day at the shop today



Brian Walker said:


> *The solution?* Take the platen off the printer and lightly spray it with a spray tack adhesive mist like is used for screen printing. This will help hold the shirt in place as the white ink is printed.
> Whamo! Issue resolved.


Are you proposing that we do this to every shirt? hope not.

I will not argue if it's the machine or the t-shirts fault ( the hen or the egg? ) but it happens in an environment where these printers are involved.

I have no clue if other printers also have these problems or have accounted for them and implemented some sort of solution to ease on the operator the burden to account for the "Unexpected Moisture Expansion/Shrinkage Effect". IMO brother did not worry about this too much, or did not test this machine in a real world usage scenario or would have been mentioned somewhere in the literature that you have to fix the t-shirt to the platen. Now we are giving brother the feedback and now they know.

On an informative note, this has happened and NOT happened ( that is where my frustration lies) in all kind of substrates from thin tees to 6.1 oz to hoodies, in the same batch of multiple prints and one offs so there is something beyond fiber composition and thickness that affects registration. But I have to say that the percentage of this happening is around 2% and the missregistration is pretty small albeit a white streak always stands out.

One thing I can say is, I see it/mind more than my clients.


----------



## JeridHill

loloxa said:


> Are you proposing that we do this to every shirt? hope not.


In screen printing, the adhesive can hold 200+ shirts but that is with pressure from the sqeegee. I would imagine you could spray less adhesive and with no pressure, you should be able to hold the same amount of shirts.


----------



## DAGuide

islandtees said:


> Brian,I would think 2 sided sticky paper used in screenprinting would also work.Less messy.


Yes, many companies use the double-sided platen tape or similar products. Marc will have his on Tuesday.

Mark


----------



## Printzilla

loloxa said:


> On an informative note, this has happened and NOT happened ( that is where my frustration lies) in all kind of substrates from thin tees to 6.1 oz to hoodies, in the same batch of multiple prints and one offs so there is something beyond fiber composition and thickness that affects registration. But I have to say that the percentage of this happening is around 2% and the missregistration is pretty small albeit a white streak always stands out.
> 
> One thing I can say is, I see it/mind more than my clients.


I agree completely. I have seen it it happen about 2%. I also agree that it isn't enough to worry about. I believe in quality work, but this is a tshirt, not the Sistine Chapel. 

That print of cavezilla was one of three (on different color shirts) that my client picked from. He never said a word about it. We definitely see it more than the client. 

All of my prints have been just using the Brother platen. I have some double sided tape in route.


----------



## Printzilla

Here is the mad hatter picture on a black and then a pink shirt.


----------



## Printzilla

BTW, the black shirt was printed with no black ink, which saved a ton of white ink as well. The pink shirt was printed with black ink, and cost about $2 more to print because of the extra white, as well as black. This print is a perfect example of designing your art for the best results, as well as the lowest ink usage. 

I also just printed a huge 100% coverage, with tons of bright colors(requiring more white), all over 14x16 print using black ink. It required 12.31cc of white, and 2.54cc of cmyk. It would have cost about $8 including pretreat to print this garment! Prior to this, I had printed lots of big designs, and none had cost over $6 to print, and most had been under $5. This just shows what proper art creation can do to help costs.


----------



## GraphicDisorder

Printzilla said:


> BTW, the black shirt was printed with no black ink, which saved a ton of white ink as well. The pink shirt was printed with black ink, and cost about $2 more to print because of the extra white, as well as black. This print is a perfect example of designing your art for the best results, as well as the lowest ink usage.
> 
> I also just printed a huge 100% coverage, with tons of bright colors(requiring more white), all over 14x16 print using black ink. It required 12.31cc of white, and 2.54cc of cmyk. It would have cost about $8 including pretreat to print this garment! Prior to this, I had printed lots of big designs, and none had cost over $6 to print, and most had been under $5. This just shows what proper art creation can do to help costs.


What is the max print area of that printer?


----------



## Brian Walker

Please note that yes, double sided platen tape used in production will also work. 

If spraying, no you don't have to do it every shirt. Just enough tack to hold it in place usually helps that out. 

Everyone also forgets that you can choke your under base down more which helps. 

Good luck with the continued testing PrintZ. Hope you have fun this weekend.

Just trying to provide some good information for anyone who's reading... And hopefully help solve some issues for them along the way.


----------



## Printzilla

GraphicDisorder said:


> What is the max print area of that printer?


16x18 with oversize platens.


----------



## Printzilla

Production run numbers:

50 black shirts
1 sided
12x10
Total time from first push of pretreat button to final press = 1 hour 44 minutes

I averaged almost one shirt every two minutes. It seems 12x10 is just about the perfect size for no pause production. I had one spot in production with about a 20 second pause where I had nothing to do. The 782 does a head clean every 22 shirts that eats up a couple of minutes, or I would have been able to produce one shirt in just under two minutes once both platens were in use.


----------



## GraphicDisorder

Printzilla said:


> 16x18 with oversize platens.


Ever printed something that large? Just curious what ink costs would be on something like that?


----------



## raise

GraphicDisorder said:


> Ever printed something that large? Just curious what ink costs would be on something like that?



It all depends on the art.

I have used the 16 x 18 platen because the design had elements that went out to the edges and used no more than 4cc of ink due to large amounts of blank or black space inside of the design. Printing on black shirts without black ink will often reduce your ink usage drastically. We saw similar results to Printzilla's previous example (ink volume doubling or tripling) printing the exact same design on non-black t-shirts.


----------



## Printzilla

GraphicDisorder said:


> Ever printed something that large? Just curious what ink costs would be on something like that?


Full coverage? Probably $10 if buying bulk ink.


----------



## PPop

Printzilla said:


> BTW, the black shirt was printed with no black ink, which saved a ton of white ink as well. The pink shirt was printed with black ink, and cost about $2 more to print because of the extra white, as well as black. This print is a perfect example of designing your art for the best results, as well as the lowest ink usage.


The White Pass on the Brother on a Black Shirt is a Work of Art in itself. 

The Brother 782 is the only printer I have seen that uses the Black of the shirt in computing the final CMYK on the design. The Dupont Machines on the other hand, print a solid white, even under dark colors. After bringing this up at NBM Long Beach, I was shown a photoshop Rube Goldberg way to perform this on the Dupont RIP...

Technically superior!!! Which is why I like the 782 best.


----------



## 102557

PPop said:


> The White Pass on the Brother on a Black Shirt is a Work of Art in itself.
> 
> The Brother 782 is the only printer I have seen that uses the Black of the shirt in computing the final CMYK on the design. The Dupont Machines on the other hand, print a solid white, even under dark colors. After bringing this up at NBM Long Beach, I was shown a photoshop Rube Goldberg way to perform this on the Dupont RIP...
> 
> Technically superior!!! Which is why I like the 782 best.


i just recently started printing as far as dtg go,s... i use a version of ek rip... and i noticed it puts a lighter white in certain portions of the image.. so im assuming this is what you are talking about... you can see this in the dark shirt i did in the vid... so it looks to me to be blending lighter spots of white per the image... the ends of the flames where a lighter white..etc like i said im a rookie but if this is the case it would be avail on epson based machines with this rip....

so this must be the programming in the rip itself which im still learning the functions of when printing to dark...


----------



## Printzilla

@ PPop - That's not accurate. Rip Pro for the Epson printers does this.


----------



## vctradingcubao

I think the Kornit QuickP Rip can also do that.


----------



## kevrokr

PPop said:


> The White Pass on the Brother on a Black Shirt is a Work of Art in itself.
> 
> The Brother 782 is the only printer I have seen that uses the Black of the shirt in computing the final CMYK on the design. The Dupont Machines on the other hand, print a solid white, even under dark colors. After bringing this up at NBM Long Beach, I was shown a photoshop Rube Goldberg way to perform this on the Dupont RIP...
> 
> Technically superior!!! Which is why I like the 782 best.


I believe all iProof RIP software has had this capability for a while. I use this function often to keep white ink usage/print costs down. Nothing Rube about it.


----------



## JeridHill

kevrokr said:


> I believe all iProof RIP software has had this capability for a while. I use this function often to keep white ink usage/print costs down. Nothing Rube about it.


Right, and when you say awhile, that means years.....


----------



## TahoeTomahawk

Yes, I've used that feature with one of the original releases of Rip Pro v03 about 3 years back.

The iProof Rip ever since I've used it never put down a solid underbase for a colored pixel, it has hard and soft layers, gradients and the ability to ignore all white pixels or all black pixels.


----------



## GraphicDisorder

Printzilla said:


> Full coverage? Probably $10 if buying bulk ink.


A lot of coverage ya. The reason I ask is we recently upgraded our print size here to 15x19, thats my standard print size now. We can print as high as 16x24 on that press and I just wondered how much something like that would cost on a DTG. My clients tend to like large prints. Thanks!

Is the brother the largest print area these days?


----------



## DAGuide

GraphicDisorder said:


> We can print as high as 16x24 on that press and I just wondered how much something like that would cost on a DTG.


Don't forget that you also have to be able cure the designs as well. So you will need to use a heat press that is 17" x 25" in size or use an ink that can be cured with a conveyor dryer. I have never been a fan of trying to heat press a dtg design multiple times as it always affects the washability or the colors in my opinion.

Mark


----------



## GraphicDisorder

DAGuide said:


> Don't forget that you also have to be able cure the designs as well. So you will need to use a heat press that is 17" x 25" in size or use an ink that can be cured with a conveyor dryer. I have never been a fan of trying to heat press a dtg design multiple times as it always affects the washability or the colors in my opinion.
> 
> Mark


Yes, but we dont use DTG currently so no worries there, we screen print and use a conveyor dryer. 

I was just curious of his rough ink cost on something at his max size.


----------



## Printzilla

It is probably at least 10x as much. I have never run a per shirt ink cost based on my screen printing. And i never printed anything that large on my press. What does it cost you in materials (ink, emulsion, chemicals, etc.....) to do a print that large?


----------



## GraphicDisorder

Printzilla said:


> It is probably at least 10x as much. I have never run a per shirt ink cost based on my screen printing. And i never printed anything that large on my press. What does it cost you in materials (ink, emulsion, chemicals, etc.....) to do a print that large?


Not exactly sure honestly. It wasn't a drastic jump from when I was printing smaller at 13x16. Someday I need to look at it closer.

If you have screen printed before you know you could print whole jobs often for just a few bucks in ink. Thats what makes DTG such a wild jump for my shop. I am completely internet based and have almost bought a DTG a few times. But I am holding out for even better machines at lower prices and lower ink costs. I think time will bring this all to the market. 

Again I think this thread is awesome. People should be aware of what costs are involved in running a machine like you have so I love seeing this feedback. I think most DTG manufactures aren't very well informing the public about it.


----------



## Brian Walker

Here we go. The pricing game of dtg vs screen print. Most people don't think of all the costs associated with setting up, prepress, films, clean up, reclaiming, not to mention the actual printing. Multiple out screen costs x number of colors and you can easily have $100 wrapped up before printing even begins. That's a lot of ink on dtg shirts. 

And why your business model matters and what you are trying to accomplish.


----------



## GraphicDisorder

Brian Walker said:


> Here we go. The pricing game of dtg vs screen print. Most people don't think of all the costs associated with setting up, prepress, films, clean up, reclaiming, not to mention the actual printing. Multiple out screen costs x number of colors and you can easily have $100 wrapped up before printing even begins. That's a lot of ink on dtg shirts.
> 
> And why your business model matters and what you are trying to accomplish.


Well I wasn't trying to make it about that. Just wanted to consider what cost would be to print at his max size which is about my regular print size in my shop. Seemed like a fair comparision for someone like myself that may one day want to get into the DTG market as it matures some more.

Rather not make this thread about screen print vs DTG. Most of us here know the pros and cons of each type as far as that goes. I just wanted a quick comparision for myself.


----------



## Printzilla

Well you asked about a full coverage all over platen print. After looking at your site, I see the vast majority of your designs have lots of negative space, this could cut the cost by as much as 70-80%. If you would like to send me a specific design, I would be glad to tell you how much it would cost.


----------



## zoom_monster

GraphicDisorder said:


> Well I wasn't trying to make it about that. Just wanted to consider what cost would be to print at his max size which is about my regular print size in my shop. Seemed like a fair comparision for someone like myself that may one day want to get into the DTG market as it matures some more.
> 
> Rather not make this thread about screen print vs DTG. Most of us here know the pros and cons of each type as far as that goes. I just wanted a quick comparision for myself.


 On Brian's site there is a comparison: https://www.direct2shirt.com/dtg/does-inkjet-garment-printing-make-financial-sense/

I don't agree with all the data( it will vary from shop to shop and specific process) but it does a good job of illustrating a couple of case histories and does not even take into consideration the time it takes and the supplies for making separations.

OK....back on topic


----------



## GraphicDisorder

Printzilla said:


> Well you asked about a full coverage all over platen print. After looking at your site, I see the vast majority of your designs have lots of negative space, this could cut the cost by as much as 70-80%. If you would like to send me a specific design, I would be glad to tell you how much it would cost.


A lot of what on my site is very outdated, forgive me there. 

I will PM you with a example of more current stuff. I dont wanna tie up your thread.


----------



## GraphicDisorder

zoom_monster said:


> On Brian's site there is a comparison: https://www.direct2shirt.com/dtg/does-inkjet-garment-printing-make-financial-sense/
> 
> I don't agree with all the data( it will vary from shop to shop and specific process) but it does a good job of illustrating a couple of case histories and does not even take into consideration the time it takes and the supplies for making separations.
> 
> OK....back on topic


Not bad, a little one sided there, I mean most shops dont have 20-40 in screen costs every job, screens can be reused. Then you can look at roller frames as well. 

A more complete picture there would be maybe to include total equipment costs on both as well.


----------



## jamesnaisang

One factor that is difficult to put a price tag on is "ease of use". For some, like myself, screen printing, even though it may be less expensive, is not an option because of the process required to print a shirt. Because I print out of my home, screen printing just wouldn't work because of all the clean up and prep required.

A DTG machine opens other doors for me not available through screen printing.


----------



## PPop

GraphicDisorder said:


> ... and have almost bought a DTG a few times. But I am holding out for even better machines at lower prices and lower ink costs. I think time will bring this all to the market.
> 
> Again I think this thread is awesome. People should be aware of what costs are involved in running a machine like you have so I love seeing this feedback. I think most DTG manufactures aren't very well informing the public about it.


Same here. DTG is not cheap on a per **** overall cost...

It might be possible tho, that the Mod-1 is that "next machine" 17.5k Price, and Ink Costs half the Bro Price... Ink Delivery system FIXED!!! Plus, Finer Detail and color gradiations than the Brother.

My major worry now is that the Dupont Print "degrades" after "only" 10-20 washes, while the Brother Ink lasts 20-25 washes...

BTW the Silkscreen vs DTG argument is old hat. DTG is better for "Photographic, or Continuous Tone designs, and for the "Print on Demand" capabilities of 1 to 200 per design "on demand". Silkscreen is better and cheaper if you print over 150 shirts per design and you like to inventory them.


----------



## Printzilla

Brother ink is not twice as much as Dupont. It is 50% more for medium volume printers that print at least 500 shirts per month.

I agree that the Epson does better detail and gradients, but not way better. I have not had a single print evaluated by any of my customers, family, or friends that they didn't think looked awesome. See the pictures posted earlier by me of the mad hatter. If that is not satisfactory detail, I don't know what would be. And for your type of designs PPOP, i can't see where the Epson would be any better than the Brother. 

I also agree that the Mod1 is by far the best Epson based machine on the planet.


----------



## islandtees

We also thought the Mod was a good printer,however we were not satisified with the wash results.Thats why we went with the Brother.


----------



## Printzilla

Feel of the print, excellent washability, print size, and speed. That is what pushed me over to the Brother.


----------



## PPop

Printzilla said:


> Brother ink is not twice as much as Dupont. It is 50% more for medium volume printers that print at least 500 shirts per month.
> 
> I agree that the Epson does better detail and gradients, but not way better. I have not had a single print evaluated by any of my customers, family, or friends that they didn't think looked awesome. See the pictures posted earlier by me of the mad hatter. If that is not satisfactory detail, I don't know what would be. And for your type of designs PPOP, i can't see where the Epson would be any better than the Brother.
> 
> I also agree that the Mod1 is by far the best Epson based machine on the planet.


Quickly, because this Quality difference should be the subject for another thread...

1. The Epson / Dupont, DTG Prints for a continuous tone, photographic quality image (on darks) is clearly better in the critical details on the highlights, and in the shadows.

2. It's like comparing a 2010 Color Xerox on Cardstock, to a 2010 Epson Giclee print on Velvet Fine Art Paper. One is good, but the other is better. Those who know better would pick the superior one.

3. The Brother 782 prints on Dark Shirts tho, are "Spot On" and look extremely Professional or "Good to Go". Mostly they can be replacements for a silkscreen print. 

4. Due to the Ink Costs on the Brother, I do have a real problem with the guy who prints my shirts on his 782, as he tries to possibly save ink or cleanings or something. The shirts are sometimes not up my level of perfectionism, or the level the machine can produce if ink cost was not a consideration...


----------



## Printzilla

PPop said:


> 2. It's like comparing a 2010 Color Xerox on Cardstock, to a 2010 Epson Giclee print on Velvet Fine Art Paper. One is good, but the other is better. Those who know better would pick the superior one.


Which is why you don't print business cards on the velvet fine art paper, they are business cards, not giclee prints. This pretty much sums up how I feel about tshirts, they are just that.....tshirts, not fine art giclee prints. Obviously you feel like you are giving up large amounts of quality just to get more durable prints, and I don't see it that way. I believe I am giving up minor quality versus the Epsons, and remember I have both. 

I have asked before, and I will ask you again....can you post some pictures of shirts printed on the brother with your designs? Both prints you feel are good, and those you feel like your printer did not do as good of a job on.


----------



## Printzilla

Also, do you have the same design printed on both types of printers? Can you post upma pic of that? I would like to see the difference you mare posting about. 

Thanks - Zilla


----------



## TahoeTomahawk

Marc,
what Epson based machine(s) did you keep?


----------



## Printzilla

I still have my kiosk. It has yet to sell, a couple of offers, but I am firm on my price. I print a shirt on it everyday, just to keep it moving.


----------



## TahoeTomahawk

I'm glad you're posting your experience.
I plan to keep one Kiosk until we finish moving approved Kiosk artwork over to the MOD, hopefully the MOD2 will be out by then and I will post a similar thread that you've done here.

Keep up the good work.


----------



## raise

PPop said:


> ...
> 4. Due to the Ink Costs on the Brother, I do have a real problem with the guy who prints my shirts on his 782, as he tries to possibly save ink or cleanings or something. The shirts are sometimes not up my level of perfectionism, or the level the machine can produce if ink cost was not a consideration...


Is your contract printer using a machine to pretreat or is he doing it by hand?

Most often we see variance in print results not by ink volume but in pretreatment quality and preparation.

The second most common issue is mishandling the ink by letting it get too warm (over 91F) or not agitating after 24 hours of sitting. This is probably where if an owner is trying to save money by avoiding the retrievals the biggest issues show up. After 24 hours we find that the ink in the lines starts to separate and causes the prints to go dull. The problem is compounded if un-agitated ink is added to the line from the carts; it is easy end up printing a run of grey-ish prints vs white prints.

Third major cause of white ink issues is a dirty or misfiring head (run a print job and notice banding or streaking or overall lightness in white blocks) which is quickly resolved by a second head clean.

Other owners will probably have different orders of frequency due to environment, tolerance for stretching maintenance requirements and workflows but these are the things I look for when something looks off with a white ink print.


----------



## Printzilla

I just did another measurement of ink waste after three days of usage. I have not done the second weekly line cleaning, this is due tommorrow. This info is based on printing and head cleanings only. It came out to $10.16 per day. One of these days included a run of 100 shirts. In total it was around 164 shirts printed, or $0.31 per shirt. This is to high in my opinion, however, I am not up and running full steam yet, so I am getting less shirts per clean. I would like to see that number get down to $.15. I order to do that, I would need to print around 50 per day. Since my plan calls for 100 per day, I may be able to get it it slightly lower.


----------



## Printzilla

I now have 368 prints on the 782. I have replaced the 4 white ink cartridges one at a time as needed over the last dozen or so prints. These are the original cartridges that were used to load the machine, as well as train me on ink loading/retrieving/cleaning etc. Of the 368 prints, the vast majority of designs were over 12x10. So if I remove some of the small prints needed for machine alignment, some of the left chest testing, and some of the smaller prints I did along the way, I still believe I could have easily gotten 275 average 12x 10 prints out of the set. I even printed several very large full platen designs that cost $4-$6. That puts my average white print at 3.25 including all waste from cleanings, retrieves, weekly maintainence, etc....I believe that I will get better yield from the next set as I learn more about the machine.

With all of that said, I do believe the Brother is costing me about 30% more per print than my Epson based printer was. This is due to the excess waste and the more expensive ink. I had not counted on so much waste ink when doing my projections. I truly believe that this machine needs to be in a shop with the business to print at least 300 shirts per week if doing wholesale/contract work. Now if just doing retail, I say you can get by on 75 shirts a week.

I plan on posting ink costs examples on the same design between the Epson and the Brother later today.


----------



## Printzilla

Ok here are some examples of the same file printed at the same size on the 782 as well as my Epson based DTG with Dupont bagged inks at Belquette liter pricing. Print was done on green shirt with black ink. Brother white settings of 3,1. Epson white ink layer slider set at default of 50 in RIP, and ink output levels of 100 on all three white channels, and all cmyk channels.

Great Dane Graphics exploding baseball design @ 12x12 90%+ coverage:

Epson - 9.02ml of white ink @ .28 per ml = $2.52 1.55ml of cmyk @.28ml = $0.43 Total = $2.95

Brother - 4.19ml of white ink @ .45 per ml = $1.88 .78ml of cmyk @.60ml = $0.47 Total = $2.66

Hmmmmm rather interesting. The dupont ink is much cheaper, but uses waaaay more. Once we factor in waste however, the Brother becomes more expensive.

The Negative Camber car design was provided by http://www.graphicdisorder.com A big thanks to them for allowing me to share this.

This file was printed @ 12"x14" on a black shirt, with no black ink from either printer. Same settings as previous example.

Epson - white ink 5.87ml or $1.64 cmyk ink 1.86ml or $0.52 Total = $2.16

Brother - white ink 2.31ml or $1.04 cmyk ink .35ml or $0.21 Total = $1.25

The big difference in the Brother CMYK price is its use of the white in low volume to create the grays, were the Epson mixes CMYK to accomplish the greys.

A considerable price difference. I was fairly shocked at this result. Pretty inexpensive for a 12x14 design. Once again, a great example of using negative space to create the design However, once you add in the waste, the Brother starts to get more expensive. Also on non-black shirts, the Brother is much closer in price per print due to the fact that the black ink MUST have white under it, where the Epson black does not require it. Any design on a non black shirt, with lots of black in it, will cost more. This image on a green shirt with black in the design would cost around $4 I would guess. I need to run it and see. 

Zilla


----------



## Printzilla

The previous design on any color other than black, but keeping the black in the design would have cost $4.38.


----------



## TahoeTomahawk

Marc, 
I wonder if Freds Rip will allow the Brother to print black without the white underbase?

Also, since on a colored shirt it prints a white underbase for the black, does it have a heavy hand to it?


----------



## Printzilla

It's not the rip, its the fact that brother ink will not adhere to the brother pretreatment.


----------



## GraphicDisorder

Great info on tge price differences Marc, no problem on the use of the artwork. Looks like it printed nicely! When you say epson you are talking about your kiosk right?


----------



## Printzilla

The colored shirt would have more ink, therefore a heavier hand. However, after washing the Brother inks just feel amazing, and the extra ink is not an issue.


----------



## Printzilla

Correct. Epson = DTG Kiosk 2 with Belquette bagged inks.


----------



## GraphicDisorder

Printzilla said:


> Correct. Epson = DTG Kiosk 2 with Belquette bagged inks.


Is that the one your selling as well? I didn't notice it was. "2" in the ad.


----------



## Printzilla

Yes it is. Hmmmm missed that. Thanks for the heads up!


----------



## FatKat Printz

Printzilla said:


> Correct. Epson = DTG Kiosk 2 with Belquette bagged inks.



I call it the K2 Mod...


----------



## GraphicDisorder

Printzilla said:


> Yes it is. Hmmmm missed that. Thanks for the heads up!


No problem at all, dumb luck I saw that.


----------



## Brian Walker

Mark,

Question for you. Since you are doing a good side by side comparison, what is the waste with cleanings, etc on the Epson printer you are using in comparison to the Brother. 

I was jiust telling the guys here this is the best way to do the comparison is with the two machines side by side.


----------



## Printzilla

Brian, that is a loaded question. Once I switched to the bagged inks, my waste went down considerably. Also, waste from auto head cleans would depend on how frequently the board is programmed to execute the cleanings. Waste from an open container vulkmsystem would be higher than a bagged system. I do know it is considerably less on a bagged ink Epson than the Brother. My Epson has printed one shirt a day after a 5 second ink fill, and done a head clean every six hours for the last 17 days, and it has produced less than 200ml of waste. So about $2-3 per day.


----------



## PPop

Brian Walker said:


> Mark,
> 
> Question for you. Since you are doing a good side by side comparison, what is the waste with cleanings, etc on the Epson printer you are using in comparison to the Brother.
> 
> I was jiust telling the guys here this is the best way to do the comparison is with the two machines side by side.


In a side by side comparison with your main DTG Printers in house, the Brother seems to win in most categories, except for cost.

With the 52k machine purchased with "last decades Profit", Please tell me if the daily ease of use, speed, and repeatability of your Brother's high quality prints would clearly outweigh the daily ink, and maintenance costs?


----------



## Printzilla

PPop said:


> In a side by side comparison with your main DTG Printers in house, the Brother seems to win in most categories, except for cost.
> 
> With the 52k machine purchased with "last decades Profit", Please tell me if the daily ease of use, speed, and repeatability of your Brother's high quality prints would clearly outweigh the daily ink, and maintenance costs?


On the cost side, it does not cost more to print on the Brother. It costs much more to maintain the Brother. 

And to answer your question......100% yes. If the printer continues to perform as flawlessly as it has up to this point, I would not hesitate to buy another, as long as I had the volume of business to justify it.

If Brother finds a way to curb the daily waste costs to under $5, and to keep the machine from using $3.00 in ink every 22 shirts for automatic head cleans, they have a huge winner IMHO. 

For me the 782 has two issues that could use work. 

1. White ink coverage is not as bright or as smooth as Dupont. However, it is still very good. 

2. $10-$20 per day in waste is ridiculous. This must be addressed. I wonder how they came up with the magic number of 22 prints as they catalyst for a clean? Is it just to sell ink? I have yet to notice a degradation in print from 16-22, would I see it from 22 to 40? I wouldn't mind a nickel a print for cleans, but three to four times that is a little much. 

The cost of the ink is actually cheaper than the dupont based on volume necessary to achieve a good print, so I would be ok with the ink price *IF* it didn't waste so damn much.


----------



## raise

At least that means if Brother were to review their cleaning defaults and find a more tolerable cleaning cycle, we could possibly see a large increase in cost savings by nothing more than a firmware update.


----------



## GraphicDisorder

Printzilla said:


> On the cost side, it does not cost more to print on the Brother. It costs much more to maintain the Brother.
> 
> And to answer your question......100% yes. If the printer continues to perform as flawlessly as it has up to this point, I would not hesitate to buy another, as long as I had the volume of business to justify it.
> 
> If Brother finds a way to curb the daily waste costs to under $5, and to keep the machine from using $3.00 in ink every 22 shirts for automatic head cleans, they have a huge winner IMHO.
> 
> For me the 782 has two issues that could use work.
> 
> 1. White ink coverage is not as bright or as smooth as Dupont. However, it is still very good.
> 
> 2. $10-$20 per day in waste is ridiculous. This must be addressed. I wonder how they came up with the magic number of 22 prints as they catalyst for a clean? Is it just to sell ink? I have yet to notice a degradation in print from 16-22, would I see it from 22 to 40? I wouldn't mind a nickel a print for cleans, but three to four times that is a little much.
> 
> The cost of the ink is actually cheaper than the dupont based on volume necessary to achieve a good print, so I would be ok with the ink price *IF* it didn't waste so damn much.


So by automatic you cant make the machine do it when you want, in other words you cant change how offen it cleans the print head? 

I think you nailed it, if they can curb the waste they have a home run in that respect.


----------



## islandtees

You can do it when you want,you just cant stop the every 22 print clean cycle.


----------



## GraphicDisorder

islandtees said:


> You can do it when you want,you just cant stop the every 22 print clean cycle.


So that would be firmware controled then. 

Maybe some feedback to brother would cause them to relook at this.


----------



## Printzilla

I am sure they would say that during development it was discovered that 22 was the number that kept the heads running smoothly and clog free on the most consistent basis.


----------



## vctradingcubao

Printzilla said:


> I am sure they would say that during development it was discovered that 22 was the number that kept the heads running smoothly and clog free on the most consistent basis.


 and so the ultimate solution is still to lower the ink prices...


----------



## Printzilla

vctradingcubao said:


> and so the ultimate solution is still to lower the ink prices...


Or devise a method to reclaim most of the white ink waste.


----------



## jamesnaisang

What is the shelf life of Brother white ink?


----------



## Brian Walker

Shelf life depending on when you get it. It should be about 60 days from receipt but varies. The shelf life is way shorter than the cmyk. 

So if you buy bulk you better be going through it.


----------



## Printzilla

Just finished my first order of white shirts. I couldn't even come close to keeping up with the printer. It was printing faster than I could cure the pretreat or the final print. With one final cure heat press, I did 38 10x10's in an hour. If I had an extra final cure press running, I could have done a lot more., instead of standing around waiting on the heat press. Or if I just pressed without the hover, I would have been able to keep up, but the results with the hover are worth the extra time to me.


----------



## zoom_monster

Is conveyor drying an option?


----------



## Printzilla

I hav eyet to crank that up for the Brother, but it is on my list of things to test.


----------



## raise

Printzilla said:


> Just finished my first order of white shirts. I couldn't even come close to keeping up with the printer. It was printing faster than I could cure the pretreat or the final print. With one final cure heat press, I did 38 10x10's in an hour. If I had an extra final cure press running, I could have done a lot more., instead of standing around waiting on the heat press. Or if I just pressed without the hover, I would have been able to keep up, but the results with the hover are worth the extra time to me.



You hover for CMYK as well?


----------



## Printzilla

Yep. I get better colors.


----------



## islandtees

Marc,how long are you hovering the white shirts.Have you hovered on the black shirts yet?


----------



## Printzilla

I do the same routine for both. 35 second hover followed by 35 seconds press.


----------



## raise

Printzilla said:


> I do the same routine for both. 35 second hover followed by 35 seconds press.


Bleh slowing me down!! Now I gotta see how much better it is lol.


----------



## WholesalePrint

Brian W

whats the spray for keeping the shirt till?


----------



## Brian Walker

It might be late, and I might be in Vegas, but...... What? I didn't understand. Sorry.


----------



## Brian Walker

If talking about shelf life of a PT'd shirt, i would recommend using as soon as possible. Varies with mfgr and the longer it sits it will collect more moisture so you'd have to re heat to get rid of moisture. 

Some say a week or two. I recommend using immediately/within 24 hours. Sort of like milk sitting out. How long do you let that go before using it or putting it back in the fridge ?


----------



## Printzilla

In my opinion the reds, oranges, and other bright colors seem to look better after hovering. I had to do it to get good results on the Dupont ink, so it was just natural to do the same here.


----------



## loloxa

Printzilla said:


> I do the same routine for both. 35 second hover followed by 35 seconds press.


so effectively you cure your t-shirts for 70 seconds?


----------



## Printzilla

Correct. I was curing my Dupont for 35 seconds longer than recommended as well, if you include the hover. 

I see the best results printing as soon after PT as possible. If i wait, i always repress before printing.


----------



## Printzilla

I really like the double sided tape on the platens. It gives me piece of mind about garment movement. It is a little more difficult/time consuming to place the shirt, but I know it will not move, and thus eliminates one issue.


----------



## Printzilla

I weighed an empty cartridge today. The used cart weighs 561 grams less than a full cart. I plan on weighing 10cc of ink to get an idea of what 1cc weighs in grams. This will give me an accurate portrayal of how many cc's I actually get to use out of the cart, and how much is wasted/thrown out.


----------



## WholesalePrint

> double sided tape


Will any tape do?


----------



## islandtees

_I think he is talking about 2 sided sticky sheets that cover the whole platen._


----------



## Printzilla

islandtees said:


> _I think he is talking about 2 sided sticky sheets that cover the whole platen._


Yep. It comes on a 16" roll. If want more info, PM DAGuide on the forum, he hooked me up.


----------



## TPrintDesigner

DA Guide, will you post up the info?


----------



## 102557

HEY..MARC

great info great thread!!

what is the brothers head configuration 4 color channels 4 white channels on separate carriage unit? and does it print bidirectional?


----------



## 102557

additionally it appears the ink is thicker than a dupont? or epson based ink- is this your belief aswell...?

and has anyone tried a different brand ink with the brother machine and recieved the same print results?

im not convinced this a complete water base ink! are you?

i have also read that the kornit 931 used a waterbase -solvent propreitary ink!!! whats your thoughts on this!!!
*Kornit 931D*


*Printing Method*Direct Printing: Computer to Textile.*Ink Type*Proprietary pigmented solvent and water based ink*Printing Heads*Piezoelectric drop on demand ink jet heads. 5 colors, 6 Print heads, 256 nozzles per head.*Image Print Size*Standard: 16" x 20". Variable to 20" x 28" (508 x 609.6 mm)*Colors*4 - CYMK Process colors for white color garments. White ink for dark color garments.*Resolution*363x363, 450x450; 540x540 636x636, 363x636 dpi.*Printed Substrate *Textile, Cotton, Cotton-Polyester blends, Lycra, Viscose and more. Rigid & Flexible materials optional.*Operating System*Windows XP.*Image Data*Bitmap, TIFF, EPS, PDF, JPEG and others*MODE**Light color garments**Dark color Garments**Throughput (Shirts/Hour):*
Depend on resolution, quality mode and image size.Fast:
Normal:
Best:
Super:295
295
221
172100
80
60
35*Interface*Network, CD.*Power Requirements*Electrical supply: 400/208 VAC, 50/60 Hz, 3Ph*Recommended*
*Accessories*ONYX and Wasatch RIP for Kornit. Densitometer Eye1*Operating Condition*Temperature 18oc-30oc, Humidity 15%-95%*Dimensions*3m x 1.9m x 1.6m*Number Of Operators*
__________________


----------



## Printzilla

german13 said:


> HEY..MARC
> 
> great info great thread!!
> 
> what is the brothers head configuration 4 color channels 4 white channels on separate carriage unit? and does it print bidirectional?


That is exactly how it is setup. I always print bidirectional.


----------



## Printzilla

They are water based, with color pigment. 

Also check this link. 

[media]http://brother-usa.net/PressReleases/Oeko-Tex_Press%20Release_final%20legal%2012-21%20(2).pdf[/media]


----------



## 102557

Printzilla said:


> They are water based, with color pigment.
> 
> Also check this link.
> 
> [media]http://brother-usa.net/PressReleases/Oeko-Tex_Press%20Release_final%20legal%2012-21%20(2).pdf[/media]


 
that is good info, however i didnt see anything about waterbased in the release...

just that they complied... additionally neo flex uses a solvent on one of there printers so i would assume that would comply aswell... 

im not sure what the criteria is for compling is it no lead? or what... harmful substances are allowed in most cases for all epa standards just at a certain level...

not sure regarding this!!


----------



## Printzilla

It would certainly NOT comply. The solvent ink is not used in any way on garments. It is in a totally different printer, not just a different head, a totally different printer. 

The CPSIA is a very complex set of regulations that I will not dissect in this thread, but it involves more than just lead. Things like phthalates, formaldehyde, etc.....once that is addressed, you then must get certification to combine approved products. Very complex to say the least. 

With that said, I am only taking Brothers word for it. It could have cyanide, arsenic, and anthrax for all I know, as I have not run it through a mass spec.


----------



## 102557

Printzilla said:


> It would certainly NOT comply. The solvent ink is not used in any way on garments. It is in a totally different printer, not just a different head, a totally different printer.
> 
> The CPSIA is a very complex set of regulations that I will not dissect in this thread, but it involves more than just lead. Things like phthalates, formaldehyde, etc.....once that is addressed, you then must get certification to combine approved products. Very complex to say the least.
> 
> With that said, I am only taking Brothers word for it. It could have cyanide, arsenic, and anthrax for all I know, as I have not run it through a mass spec.


LOL...

I,m not saying its not...just seems a thicker ink to me?

Its got me very curious regarding the law... it seems if solvents wouldnt comply there would be no screen printers!!!

this plastisol goes on shirts everyday!!! i will have to dig in and see what these requirements are..

thanks a million!!!

i looked into this site a bit... Initial certification - Welcome to Oeko-Tex.com

it looks to me as a bought certification... sorta like an iso 9000 standard..

i see nothing in regards to solvents.. mostly lead and formaldehyde.. in regards to children...

Im always amused by some of the testing standards aswell (my day job deals with epa mandated equipment for process lines) this includes metal plating shops, food process lines, pharm, medical etc.. we make equipment that rids pollution.. most of there testing proceedures are a joke!!!! like chromium (chrome plating) one of the worst things on the planet... its allowed to be emitted out the stacks in so many ppm.. 

these factorys are usually on the outskirts of town...

i know its prolly unrelated but paid certifications make me laugh questions to be asked-->what are the standards? who,s are they? what are the limits? whats being tested? how are they being tested, any long term effect tests, wheres the data.. etc etc.. just because its got a smiley face on the label doesnt constitute its not present (harmful chems) it just meets what standards are in place!!! im not advocating harmful substances by any means-i have a father with cancer! just look beyond the label...


----------



## Printzilla

The ink is 4x as thick as Dupont is what I have been told. 

On the no screen printers comment....do some research. Look into why most ink companies are changing their formulations to comply with the CPSIA, and to just be more Eco friendly. This involves becoming phthalate free. 

It is not the Oeko Tex certification that is so important, it is the fact that the certification comes with a verification of compliance with the CPSIA, which you cannot "just buy" from the government. 

I agree that sometimes "certifications" do not mean much. However, in this instance the CPSIA compliance that comes with it is very important.


----------



## 102557

Printzilla said:


> The ink is 4x as thick as Dupont is what I have been told.
> 
> On the no screen printers comment....do some research. Look into why most ink companies are changing their formulations to comply with the CPSIA, and to just be more Eco friendly. This involves becoming phthalate free.
> 
> It is not the Oeko Tex certification that is so important, it is the fact that the certification comes with a verification of compliance with the CPSIA, which you cannot "just buy" from the government.
> 
> I agree that sometimes "certifications" do not mean much. However, in this instance the CPSIA compliance that comes with it is very important.


awesome info Marc...

I know a little bit about plastic... i fabricate it every weekday..lol

phthalate is an ester of phthalic acid- used most often for softening poly vinyl chroide (PVC) or vinyl..

bad i agree!!! however what it is softening is much worse when heated- PVC or vinyl.. its not bad in its solid form..its bad when being manufactured or its heated to a high temp which releases the bad...

so my question is how many heat presses come down on a vinyl material every day? at 300 plus degrees how many shirts go thru a dryer releasing the same? 

its all bad


----------



## Printzilla

In this day and age it's hard to find anything not bad for you......


----------



## 102557

Printzilla said:


> In this day and age it's hard to find anything not bad for you......


 If it tastes good, or works good.. its bad..lol

AWESOME THREAD MARC..LOOKS TO BE AN AWESOME MACHINE!!!

i was wondering what the sound is in the video when the head moves.. they seem to all make this distinct sound (brother) kornit seems similar aswell.. is this a motor? sounds like a screw drive moving the carriage? lol


----------



## Printzilla

Yep. Drive motors.


----------



## 102557

Printzilla said:


> Yep. Drive motors.


Marc, is it a belt driven carriage like the epsons or a screw drive?


----------



## DAGuide

TPrintDesigner said:


> DA Guide, will you post up the info?


Based on the testing that I have been involved with, a commercial grade double sided tape seems to minimize the need for a choke on large designs with white ink. When applying the amount of white ink fluid to a garment, the fibers in the garment will begin to spread out and requires more choking. The tape keeps this from happening. The tape also minimize the chance for the shirt moving / shifting during the moving process. During this testing, I had to find a source for the double-sided tape and Marc is one of the people that are now using it.

Hope this explains the discussion on the tape.

Mark


----------



## Printzilla

After measuring out and weighing 20cc's of ink it appars that the gram to cc ratio of brother white ink is just a fuzz(real scientific I know) over 1:1. 20cc fluctuated between 20-21 grams on my scale. 10cc stayed dead on 10 grams. 

This is good news, because, it appears I am getting over 550cc's out of a cartridge.


----------



## 102557

Here is a perfect example of looking past the certifications...lol
this explains the better wash test and thicker ink!! the solvent is in all four of there colors "water based ink" i wasnt able to find the white msds..yet! 

if you are using there "wash liquid" this according to the msds on brians site contains 60% weight volume of the same solvent!!!!
this is the data provided on the msds sheet on brother inks (magenta) from brian,s website.... 


1.)proprietary pigments
2.) propreitary organic materials
****3.) diethylene glycol at 45-50% by weight(ODORLESS SOLVENT)****
4.) water for the balance

*Diethylene glycol* (*DEG*) is an organic compound with the formula (HOCH2CH2)2O. It is a colorless, practically odorless, poisonous, viscous, and hygroscopic liquid with a sweetish taste. It is miscible in water, alcohol, ether, acetone and ethylene glycol.[1] DEG is a widely used solvent


Toxicology
Despite the discovery of DEG’s toxicity in 1937 and its involvement in mass poisonings around the world, the information available regarding human toxicity is limited. Some authors suggest that minimum toxic dose is estimated at 0.14 mg/kg of body weight and lethal dose between 1 and 1.63 g/kg of body weight,[5] while some suggest that the LD50 in adults is of ~1 mL/kg,[1] and others suggest that this is the LD30.[3] Because of its adverse effects on humans, diethylene glycol is not allowed for use in food and drugs. The U.S. Code of Federal Regulations allows no more than 0.2% of diethylene glycol in polyethylene glycol when the latter is used as a food additive.[6]
Diethylene glycol has moderate acute toxicity in animal experiments. The LD50 for small mammals has been tested at between 2 and 25 g/kg, less toxic than its relative ethylene glycol but still capable of causing toxicity in humans. It appears diethylene glycol is more hazardous to humans than implied by oral toxicity data in laboratory animals.

P.S*** all the info was read from the msds. sheets and wikipedia


----------



## Printzilla

My 1000th post. Ooooohhhh a black shirt.


----------



## raise

Printzilla said:


> My 1000th post. Ooooohhhh a black shirt.


Congratulations!


----------



## 102557

german13 said:


> Here is a perfect example of looking past the certifications...lol
> this explains the better wash test and thicker ink!! the solvent is in all four of there colors "water based ink" i wasnt able to find the white msds..yet!
> 
> if you are using there "wash liquid" this according to the msds on brians site contains 60% weight volume of the same solvent!!!!
> this is the data provided on the msds sheet on brother inks (magenta) from brian,s website....
> 
> 
> 1.)proprietary pigments
> 2.) propreitary organic materials
> ****3.) diethylene glycol at 45-50% by weight(ODORLESS SOLVENT)****
> 4.) water for the balance
> 
> *Diethylene glycol* (*DEG*) is an organic compound with the formula (HOCH2CH2)2O. It is a colorless, practically odorless, poisonous, viscous, and hygroscopic liquid with a sweetish taste. It is miscible in water, alcohol, ether, acetone and ethylene glycol.[1] DEG is a widely used solvent
> 
> 
> Toxicology
> Despite the discovery of DEG’s toxicity in 1937 and its involvement in mass poisonings around the world, the information available regarding human toxicity is limited. Some authors suggest that minimum toxic dose is estimated at 0.14 mg/kg of body weight and lethal dose between 1 and 1.63 g/kg of body weight,[5] while some suggest that the LD50 in adults is of ~1 mL/kg,[1] and others suggest that this is the LD30.[3] Because of its adverse effects on humans, diethylene glycol is not allowed for use in food and drugs. The U.S. Code of Federal Regulations allows no more than 0.2% of diethylene glycol in polyethylene glycol when the latter is used as a food additive.[6]
> Diethylene glycol has moderate acute toxicity in animal experiments. The LD50 for small mammals has been tested at between 2 and 25 g/kg, less toxic than its relative ethylene glycol but still capable of causing toxicity in humans. It appears diethylene glycol is more hazardous to humans than implied by oral toxicity data in laboratory animals.
> 
> P.S*** all the info was read from the msds. sheets and wikipedia


 
someone must have a comment to this!


----------



## sharktees

I don't think this belongs in the diary of a 782 owner you should start a new thread.


----------



## 102557

sharktees said:


> I don't think this belongs in the diary of a 782 owner you should start a new thread.


oh ok sorry... i thought this ink went in the 782.. this is a discussion that marc and i were having earlier in the THREAD above... I was under the impression it was a non biased thread-with people asking questions and getting answers in relation to the printer (as seen throughout the thread) the ink is part of the printer is it not? looks to me that we have two biased brother owners, according to the two responses that said i should start another thread (both brother owners) 

I like the brother machine and i am in search for a better ink that includes solvent myself!! its obviously better! no negative displacement implied or intended.. I guess Im not entitled to ask questions and provide info here as others have? I will start a new thread, so that it doesnt interfere with marcs testing!!! 

BEST OF LUCK MARC... CONGRATS ON YOUR 1000 ALSO it would be nice if you acknowleged the inks included this per our previous conversation above!! i know your a stand up guy!!! 

SORRY AGAIN!!


----------



## sharktees

The ink does go in the 782 but IMO your posts have nothing to do with Marcs experience printing and running his business with the 782.


----------



## islandtees

I agree with Sharktees,your posts have nothing to do with the diary.Start another thread.Just a side note to his responce:I dont own a 782 yet,its on order.


----------



## vctradingcubao

Printzilla said:


> My 1000th post. Ooooohhhh a black shirt.


congratulations...
and again, great thread you have here...
i'm now debating with myself if i'll start a Kornit 932-6 Diary, but I don't think I could do it...


----------



## kevrokr

Printzilla said:


> After measuring out and weighing 20cc's of ink it appars that the gram to cc ratio of brother white ink is just a fuzz(real scientific I know) over 1:1. 20cc fluctuated between 20-21 grams on my scale. 10cc stayed dead on 10 grams.
> 
> This is good news, because, it appears I am getting over 550cc's out of a cartridge.


Something must be up with your scale if you're getting 550mL's out of a 500mL cartridge. At $600-$700 per liter of ink, I'm pretty sure they're not over-filling their cartridges by 10%.


----------



## DAGuide

kevrokr said:


> Something must be up with your scale if you're getting 550mL's out of a 500mL cartridge. At $600-$700 per liter of ink, I'm pretty sure they're not over-filling their cartridges by 10%.


Actually, the numbers are very conservative being that Brother is a Japanese company and their legal dept requires them to use a lower number. But people should remember just like any other cartridge, not all the ink will come out of it. This is one of the reasons why most of the cartridges used in any type of printer are over-filled.

Mark


----------



## kevrokr

Fair enough...if you're getting 10% more out of the cartridge before there is some left in there. Approximately how many mL's is usually left in their carts when retired?


----------



## DAGuide

I will let Marc answer the question that is specific to him, but my experience is the amount will vary from one printer to another depending on several factors - altitude being one of them. Again, this applies to all printers (i.e. dye sub, solvent, dtg,...) except for the Ricoh Gel Sprinters as they have a bi-chamber ink delivery system that sucks out all the inks in the cartridge.

Mark


----------



## islandtees

Where is $600-$700 coming from?If my math is correct 1 litter is 1000 ML.You can get 500ML carts for $225.00 when buying the 10 pack.That comes out to $450.00 per litter.Please correct me if Im wrong.


----------



## kevrokr

islandtees said:


> Where is $600-$700 coming from?If my math is correct 1 litter is 1000 ML.You can get 500ML carts for $225.00 when buying the 10 pack.That comes out to $450.00 per litter.Please correct me if Im wrong.



The PAS Store - Parts, Accessories and Supplies


----------



## DAGuide

Gary, 

The numbers that Kevin is talking about is if you buy 1 white ink cart at a time. The cost of a white 500 cc cart is $300. Thus, the amount would be $600.00 per a liter. If you buy 10 white carts at a time (i.e. case of white ink), the cost drops down to $225.00 a cartridge. Thus, you number of $450.00 per a liter of white ink would be correct. The cost per white ink can go even lower if you go with the bulk white ink container, but that amount will depend on the number of containers you go through in a month.

Hope this clarifies things.

Mark


----------



## kevrokr

Brian Walker said:


> Shelf life depending on when you get it. It should be about 60 days from receipt but varies. The shelf life is way shorter than the cmyk.
> 
> So if you buy bulk you better be going through it.



If you can use 10 carts in that time frame.


----------



## DAGuide

The majority of the GT-782 owners do go through ink that fast. The cost of the printer is basically a barrier of entry for companies that have a low print count. But the ones that buy the printer, usually have a large enough customer base that it is not an issue from what I have seen.

Mark


----------



## islandtees

I agree with Mark.If your not going thru 10 carts in 60 days this is not the printer for you.


----------



## Printzilla

kevrokr said:


> Something must be up with your scale if you're getting 550mL's out of a 500mL cartridge. At $600-$700 per liter of ink, I'm pretty sure they're not over-filling their cartridges by 10%.


My scale, although not a scientific scale, is accurate to within one gram at 1000g. This was tested with a known weight. 

You would be correct about them not over filling by 10%. On the four carts I have used up it was closer to 20%! I was able to use 561g of ink before replacing, and I was able to retrieve 34cc of leftover ink when I cut the bag open. 

As to your link to the PAS store, that only lists what the cartridge is called. Nowhere does it state that there is only 500cc's of ink in the cartridge. 

If you would agree to pay for the cartridge, I would be more than happy to bring one down and we could open it up together, cut the bag open, pour out the ink and weigh it. I am sure you guys have very accurate scales that you use in your ink bag filling division.


----------



## kevrokr

They do describe it as a 500cc cartridge. But true...ink is filled a little more in a cartridge. I just did not think by that much. When filling our PrintsRite Bags (500mL or 250mL), we go about 10mL over to give the benefit of doubt. Guess the extra makes up for the cleanings you have to do.

As for opening up a cartridge....I'd rather we open a couple of beers.


----------



## jamesnaisang

I know this is not directly about the 782, but what type of scale do you all use to weigh your shirts?


----------



## Printzilla

The one on the left looks almost exactly like mine.


----------



## Brian Walker

Anyone home?

Just seeing how things are going here Mark.... It has been quiet, must mean you are printing like crazy.


----------



## Printzilla

Everything is running well, I have just been busy updating my site, (my price list is now in a table form as requested by several of you) and doing sample shirts, plus a mailer, plus some local marketing, and so on ......

However, I will have some very interesting information regarding ink usage, actual volume of ink in the carts, etc....by the end of next week. 

I also have an issue with my dark greens showing some banding, when they are in large solid blocks. I printed a run for a lymphoma cancer benefit for a local girl. The ribbon for lymphoma is a lime green. I shaded the bottom of the ribbon, and got some banding. I will post up a picture when I get the chance.


----------



## jamesnaisang

Printzilla said:


> I also have an issue with my dark greens showing some banding,


Can you please explain what you mean by "banding". Thanks!


----------



## Printzilla

When you look at a print you can see were the "print bands" are from each pass of the print head. The Brother has such thick ink, that it does not spread as smoothly as thinner ink when it hits the garment, especially on solid dark colors.


----------



## zoom_monster

So Zilla, you’re not missing any nozzles (Yellow, Cyan, Black), just seeing the lines themselves? Does the Brother head interlace at all, or is it: Pass, full index, pass etc.? Do you send the file as RGB or do you send CMYK? I would assume that black is a really low percentage in this scenario and you might be able to “see” the lines. Is that what you believe to be happening?


----------



## Printzilla

I have yet to have any nozzle issues. I run a nozzle check every morning, and all eight channels are perfect every time. I ran one immediately after the first green ribbon came off the printer, and it was perfect. 

The printer interlaces. This is a very rare issue, that I have only seen on a couple of designs.


----------



## zoom_monster

Interesting. I would imagine if dark green was say 100% yellow, 100% cyan and then black is added at a very small amount, there might be a threshold at which the black would not file (5% or less?). If you know what your CMYK values are, or their RGB equivlents, You may be able to enter a number that has less of a greying component (in this case Magenta) and raise the black component....If you get my drift


----------



## loloxa

Printzilla said:


> I have yet to have any nozzle issues. I run a nozzle check every morning, and all eight channels are perfect every time. I ran one immediately after the first green ribbon came off the printer, and it was perfect.
> 
> The printer interlaces. This is a very rare issue, that I have only seen on a couple of designs.


I Had a very annoying banding issue with blue that was fixed after a head replacement, afterwards all was OK, I had my 541 on hand when they installed the 782 and requested to swap the cyan heads to see where the issue might originate and bingo the new blue head was at fault since the old one was working and the new one they sent got this fixed. If you want you can send me or post a picture of the banding to see if it relates to the issue I was having, also remember that you can program the nozzles shooting sequence and if there is small gap it might show.

regards


----------



## Printzilla

Here are a few pics demonstrating the issue with the banding. The crazy part is that it only bands in certain parts of the image. Both the white underbase and the color layer are banding. However, I believe that the banding in the color layer is a consequence of the banding in the underbase. It only does it on certain images, and only in certain spots. This leads me to believe it is an issue with the Brother print driver, and how it deciphers images for the underbase. All nozzle checks look perfect. I can print a different large full coverage design, immediately before and after either of these images, and it comes out perfect. 

Maybe I have a "Ghost in the Machine"!


----------



## Printzilla

For those wondering about the stretchability of the Brother ink.

And also how small of a line it can register with the underbase.


----------



## vctradingcubao

is there some form of an "interlace" print mode in the Brother that you can use to eliminate the occassional banding?


----------



## loloxa

I'm possitive the white is starving, do you get this in designs with large white coverage? does it always happen as the printing progresses ( as shown in the pictures) or does it occur at the beginning of the design too? if you only get this result beyond a certain point and not evenly when printing, it could mean white ink starvation ( we saw something similar int he forum with Justin's yellow head) I would certainly have brother look at the heads if it becomes a recurring issue, you are still under warranty for the next few more months.

Hope it gets fixed, also if you want to post an arp so we can try I would not mind running it on my machine.

regards


----------



## Printzilla

I can print a different large full coverage design, immediately before and after either of these images, and it comes out perfect, so it would seem it is not starvation. Also, it starts in different places on different designs. However, just to test your theory, I will print one that is only 25% as large as the original, and see what happens. Thanks for the input and the offer. I will post up an .arp.


----------



## brb66

Or you could just rotate it 180 deg and see what happens.


----------



## kornitguy

I'm late to the party but thanks for this diary. Lots of useful info here.

I just read through all 22 pages and would like to add a couple things.

I think that time frames of ROI tend to coincide with tax applicable write offs for equipment degradation. I think that seeing as digital printers are closest to office equipment that they fall into the same category.

Someone else pointed this out but I think it needs further beating with a hammer: There are many factors contributing to your margins. 

-Overhead (Rent, power, people, insurance, ect)
-Blank shirts
-Shipping in and out
-Ink
-Pretreat
-Waste
-Preventive Maintenance
-Repair Maintenance
-Downtime
-Training

That is obviously missing stuff and ignores a staff, with hiring and turnover.

The important thing to keep in mind is that you can minimize all of those categories to improve margins. Don't get too caught up on any one. Obviously grab the low hanging fruit first but simple things like multi-tasking can make dramatic cuts. Or slowing down a bit to reduce misprints.

As Marc pointed out, sales, is more important than the equipment. No sales, no need for equipment. Further, low sales, less optimization of the equipment. More dry starts, more down time, less opportunity to multi-task doing multiple jobs.

Finally, for those who are small shops where, like Marc, the owner is still active in developing production procedures and or actual day to day printing. Do due diligence in developing your procedures. Use Marc's diary as a guide. He has shown a great deal of insight into tests that can get you over the learning curve and into streamlined production with any new printer. But you need to do the leg work. Every piece of equipment is different and everyone has different expectations.

Again, Great work Marc and thanks!


----------



## Printzilla

Sorry about the gap in posting. I have been extremely busy this week. I have some cool things to post about that we are currently testing in the coming weeks. 

I am awaiting arrival of my bulk ink refill station, so I will have pictures and a thorough review of that as soon as it arrives.

I also plan on releasing a video showing exactly how much ink comes inside the Brother cartridges. In the video, I am opening a new sealed cart, cutting the interior bag open, and dumping the ink into a measuring container!  

There are some more exciting things on the horizon for the 782, that at this time I have to keep under wraps, but as soon as I am able, I will post up. 

Printzilla


----------



## HPS

What are the major benefits of the refilling station? does it reclaim the waste ink from daily maintenance? If so does it filter or clean it so there is no contamination? whats the break even cost or time on return for break even of the station?


----------



## Printzilla

It does not reclaim the ink. Once ink has been jetted, the properties are altered, thus making reusing it difficult at best.

The benefit to me will be about a 15% reduction in ink cost. If you are printing around 125 or more dark shirts a week, it starts giving you a better return than the carts.


----------



## markstarnes

Marc,

Thanks for posting all of your experiences with your new machine!

I have always been under the impression that if you invest much higher dollars on a "production" machine the payoff is in lower consumables cost. Please correct me if I'm wrong but it doesn't see to be the case with the Brother 782.

Mark


----------



## diveloper

Printzilla said:


> Ok here are some examples of the same file printed at the same size on the 782 as well as my Epson based DTG with Dupont bagged inks at Belquette liter pricing. Print was done on green shirt with black ink. Brother white settings of 3,1. Epson white ink layer slider set at default of 50 in RIP, and ink output levels of 100 on all three white channels, and all cmyk channels.
> 
> Great Dane Graphics exploding baseball design @ 12x12 90%+ coverage:
> 
> Epson - 9.02ml of white ink @ .28 per ml = $2.52 1.55ml of cmyk @.28ml = $0.43 Total = $2.95
> 
> Brother - 4.19ml of white ink @ .45 per ml = $1.88 .78ml of cmyk @.60ml = $0.47 Total = $2.66
> 
> Hmmmmm rather interesting. The dupont ink is much cheaper, but uses waaaay more. Once we factor in waste however, the Brother becomes more expensive.
> 
> The Negative Camber car design was provided by http://www.graphicdisorder.com A big thanks to them for allowing me to share this.
> 
> This file was printed @ 12"x14" on a black shirt, with no black ink from either printer. Same settings as previous example.
> 
> Epson - white ink 5.87ml or $1.64 cmyk ink 1.86ml or $0.52 Total = $2.16
> 
> Brother - white ink 2.31ml or $1.04 cmyk ink .35ml or $0.21 Total = $1.25
> 
> The big difference in the Brother CMYK price is its use of the white in low volume to create the grays, were the Epson mixes CMYK to accomplish the greys.
> 
> A considerable price difference. I was fairly shocked at this result. Pretty inexpensive for a 12x14 design. Once again, a great example of using negative space to create the design However, once you add in the waste, the Brother starts to get more expensive. Also on non-black shirts, the Brother is much closer in price per print due to the fact that the black ink MUST have white under it, where the Epson black does not require it. Any design on a non black shirt, with lots of black in it, will cost more. This image on a green shirt with black in the design would cost around $4 I would guess. I need to run it and see.
> 
> Zilla


First off, thanks for this great thread, so informative.

How do you know exactly how much inks were used?

How has 782 prints held up in the wash? Any data on this?

(I also sent you a few PM's)


----------



## jamesnaisang

Brian Walker said:


> Officially the Brother pretreat can be mixed anywhere 1:1 or 1:2 (pretreat to water). There is not much of a difference between the two except milage, and better results on the lighter/more difficult dyed shirt colors where you get better results the hier the ratio within those limits.



Do you know if the Viper Pretreatment can be mixed 1:2 ratio?


----------



## Brian Walker

The Viper pretreatment should be mixed one to one with distilled water. The concentrated ships where you just finish filling up the container to make it the correct mixture.


----------



## JohnL

Printzilla; said:


> Great Dane Graphics exploding baseball design @ 12x12 90%+ coverage:
> 
> Epson - 9.02ml of white ink @ .28 per ml = $2.52 1.55ml of cmyk @.28ml = $0.43 Total = $2.95
> 
> Brother - 4.19ml of white ink @ .45 per ml = $1.88 .78ml of cmyk @.60ml = $0.47 Total = $2.66
> 
> Hmmmmm rather interesting. The dupont ink is much cheaper, but uses waaaay more. Once we factor in waste however, the Brother becomes more expensive.
> 
> The Negative Camber car design was provided by http://www.graphicdisorder.com A big thanks to them for allowing me to share this.
> 
> This file was printed @ 12"x14" on a black shirt, with no black ink from either printer. Same settings as previous example.
> 
> Epson - white ink 5.87ml or $1.64 cmyk ink 1.86ml or $0.52 Total = $2.16
> 
> Brother - white ink 2.31ml or $1.04 cmyk ink .35ml or $0.21 Total = $1.25
> 
> The big difference in the Brother CMYK price is its use of the white in low volume to create the grays, were the Epson mixes CMYK to accomplish the greys.
> 
> Zilla


This is a great thread i think it is the first of its kind that i have seen. A direct side by side comparison, something the community has been anxious to see for quite some time. 

I think the Epson should be changed to the specific printer + rip combination you are using. The combination will have a large bearing on the final output values. 

Looking forward to seeing more as we go along throughout the year. A simple update once in a while should be sufficient. Just to let everyone know how things are going.

Best of luck to you and your new investment.


----------



## TahoeTomahawk

Did you ever get the Banding / Starvation issue worked out?


----------



## Walter T

Thanks for your very intresting dairy! Very learnfull.

But how are things now? Over half a year since your last post...

Still printing that much, still happy with the GT782?


----------



## PPop

vctradingcubao said:


> thanks for sharing, looking forward to your updates.


http://www.t-shirtforums.com/tf-classifieds/t154933.html

It looks like he SOLD it for a $20,000 loss...

Happy Happy Joy Joy...

Changing his "Business Model" - Probably bought a Mod-1 or two!


----------



## Brian Walker

Actually, I believe he had to move back up north to attend to some family things so he had to sell everything and move..... but he'd be the one to fill you all in.


----------



## allamerican-aeoon

PPop said:


> http://www.t-shirtforums.com/tf-classifieds/t154933.html
> 
> It looks like he SOLD it for a $20,000 loss...
> 
> Happy Happy Joy Joy...
> 
> Changing his "Business Model" - Probably bought a Mod-1 or two!


His choice was NeoFlex.


----------



## WholesalePrint

> His choice was NeoFlex.


Proove it !!!!!!


----------



## stix

I believe Peter..


----------



## stix

I'm quite sure most of his printing came from retail sales and not wholesale printing. He is a very smart man and I highly doubt he would take a 20k loss. He may have sold it 20k less than what he paid for it.. Two different things!


----------



## allamerican-aeoon

I don't want to say who's PM it was and have many more. Privacy is important. I regret I post about his choice. I am so sorry but too late.
_"I want $35000. I am excited about joining the NeoFamily if it works out. Sent from my using Tapatalk"_
_Lots of luck to Mark. I hope all are going well with him. Nicest guy. _
_I will apology to him when we meet. I will obey consequence._
_Not my day._


----------



## allamerican-aeoon

stix said:


> I believe Peter..


Thank you Chris. My heart will stay with you. It is hardest thing to trust someone without evidence. But you said I am not a liar. But I was wrong and too late to take back. My personal invitation to Long Beach or Philly. Do you have a time? That is all you need. Thx my friend. I will stand by you ever.


----------



## WholesalePrint

Interesting if he did ditch his 782 at a loss for a neoflex. And yes a loss cause I don't care who you are, 782 can't be sold under a certain price regardless of what dealer sells it. Any loss would be on the dealers part and their commission is nowhere near 20k. I'm just curious cause HE raved about how great everything was. I don't like to think for anybody else so it would be nice if he said something, not speculators. Though I can understand buying epson first than moving up but spending that much and moving down to a converted machine I would like to hear direct or maybe everything he said wasn't always what it seemed.  Nontheless I wish him the best in any road he takes.


----------



## 102557

It would be interesting to here marks review on the brother vs.. I was following the classified ad on his listing for the 782 and he had said it was to large for a mall kiosk setup http://www.t-shirtforums.com/tf-classifieds/t154933.html#post923459

the neoflex is the same size? or at least takes up the same space, curious for the inside story on this one!!


----------



## allamerican-aeoon

His final choice was NeoFlex. We did not follow through all the way. Sent XX formal quotation with request. XX PM (tsf) "Thanks for the quote"(copy paste). And XX PM(tsf) me "How much will the 4900 upgrade cost?"(copy paste). I said "not much than now and when? I don't know". Last conversation was he will be back after he take care some business. It was about month minus plus and I forgot about him(age?). And same time I was abandoned from TSF which was our main communication chanel 9 (my bad, hot blood, about month) and took vacation(?) for while. I didn't want to bother him (honestly forgot, spoiled with ---) even I have a his cell number. I strongly believe he will contact me sooner. When he comes back I will offer him a never happened deal in history with my apology. I will contact him today myself. I am not afraid of his blame maybe he will not mad as I think. I learned again at my age.(will ever done?) 
Cheers, beers are on me always!
See you at Long Beach!


----------



## Don-ColDesi

I can confirm that Mark was indeed looking to change his business model - he contacted me about the M series machine. The timing was not right for his move. I too have know Mark for a long time - I've sold him something like 4-5 printers over the past 5 years. He is a very good user and a valuable resource for this industry. I'm sure he will emerge once again and the truth will be known.


----------



## JeridHill

I can say the same thing. He contacted me multiple times since the Mod series was introduced. It never worked out because of timing issues. If someone inquires about a product, that doesn't necessarily mean they've "picked" that one machine. When they actually make the purchase, that's when the choice has been made.


----------



## allamerican-aeoon

Jerid, Don, You all right. I cannot debate until $ is in. I admit my too fast again. But honestly when I read "probably mod one or two Mod" My lips slipped. If it was Viper I probably wouldn't. When I realized it was too late Wholesale reply with my post as quote. Well %#&@ happens.
Cheers! Beers are me always.


----------



## JeridHill

allamerican said:


> Jerid, Don, You all right. I cannot debate until $ is in. I admit my too fast again. But honestly when I read "probably have one or two Mod" My lips slipped. If it was Viper I probably wouldn't. When I realized it was too late Wholesale reply with my post as quote. Well %#&@ happens.
> Cheers! Beers are me always.


Peter, IMO, the bottom line is what's best for the customer. Honestly, I don't care what the customer has as a printer just as long as it fits their business model.


----------



## Don-ColDesi

I was simply trying to confirm that authenticity of Marc changing directions in his business model. He contacted me about the M series because of the vidoe that appeared up here and we discussed the potential of the machine but he made no commitments. He has been looking for new machinery in the past two months though as Peter & I can confirm.


----------



## 102557

I notice a dramatic increase in folks selling off dtgs? especially on ebay i have been following this closely. even andy is selling off his mod1 at half price there dtg printer | eBay

Also some manufactures have resorted to selling on ebay.. i wonder whats going on? economy? epson changes? cost of use? moving to screen printing exclusively? Its very strange but you can find about every brand printer for about half price that are fairly new and it seems to be increasing! maybe a subject for another thread...


----------



## JeridHill

In fairness, that ebay post looks like from Andy McDaniels who has one of the original Mod1 printers from 3 years ago, outside of that, I've not seen a Mod1 for sale from an end user.


----------



## 102557

JeridHill said:


> In fairness, that ebay post looks like from Andy McDaniels who has one of the original Mod1 printers from 3 years ago, outside of that, I've not seen a Mod1 for sale from an end user.


Im saying in general, not brand specific. i have seen almost every brand forsale there increasing recently and this is newer machinery.. and you are correct this is the first mod1 i have every seen forsale on ebay and i have been keeping a log of the models on auction for a bit now for my own research


----------



## allamerican-aeoon

Hey, we had lots of fun. TSF can use some(not many) this kind post once a while so our heart jumping little. Let's move forward. I emailed to Marc. 
How about them Eagles? Just received season ticket sales call.
Salud! a la salud, al dinero, a la mujer. Siempre!


----------



## JeridHill

german13 said:


> Im saying in general, not brand specific. i have seen almost every brand forsale there increasing recently and this is newer machinery.. and you are correct this is the first mod1 i have every seen forsale on ebay and i have been keeping a log of the models on auction for a bit now for my own research


Haha, you're a man of many faces..... And I need to stand corrected as well, it was about 2 1/2 years ago, not 3. Andy was one of our first customers.

Andy, if you sell your Mod, you can have the person contact us and we can upgrade it to the newest model as well to get them up to date.


----------



## allamerican-aeoon

Jerid, Jeff --
Off the subject again here. Time to Rodney jump in.


----------



## 102557

allamerican said:


> Jerid, Jeff --
> Off the subject again here. Time to Rodney jump in.


I guess kinda sorta referring to the diary and the machine being sold off, it seems we just got to read thru the diary preamble.. I guess the diary ends as SOLD for undisclosed reasons... If i had to guess the contact printing business model didnt work out and its prolly not the best machine for retail with its purchase price/ink costs.. Seems mark eluded to this early on in the diary and justified the purchase buying bulk ink.. i would love to here a straight forward conclusion from mark here...


----------



## allamerican-aeoon

Movie without ending is sick but beauty is in many times. Let it be ---.


----------



## zoom_monster

Actually guys, Marc does state his reasons (in his own words by the way... Go find it FCOL and stop speculation. this issue is done. Elvis has left the building!


----------

