# Thinking of buying a DTG printer. Read first!



## bertie2000

If you fall into one of the 2 following categories please read the rest of my posting before you spend thousands of pounds on a DTG printer.

1, An existing screen printer who sells T Shirts.
2. Someone thinking they can make a living from selling a couple of T Shirts every day on E Bay or Gumtree.

a. They are phenomenally expensive for what they actually are which is basically a repackaged A3 ink jet printer. The equivalent price for that A3 printer would be in the region of £200. Where the whole 10 grand bit comes from escapes me. (It's not difficult to see who really makes the money out of DTG)

b. The guys who sell DTG printers are brilliant at convincing you that you will make a living and they all know someone who is so busy who now needs three...... hmmmm. oookay.... All of their examples are purely anecdotal.

c. The quality of DTG is absolutely nowhere near that of a screen printed one. NO amount of waffle in here will ever change that. I have screen printed T shirts that are still being washed and worn from over a decade ago. My DTG ones are crap in compariosn.

d. The colours on DTG are NOT as good as screen print. Not even a bit. They are wishy washy, take ages and the white on black is very often grey (unless you put so much down it's like cardboard).

e. Inks are ABSURDLY expensive. I worked with dyes and titanium dioxides for years so please don't try to tell me that your mark up isn't through the roof at the prices you charge. I used to buy it in by the ton it was so cheap.

f. Wait until you need a new print head! Get your wallet out. Think of the profit on 100 T shirts puts it into perspective!
(Plus labour)

g. The suppliers of these machines purposely make them obsolete by constantly bringing out new 'models' which are basically the old one in a new casing but which automatically devalues your model. 

h. You will need to print and sell HUGE numbers of T Shirts to even cover the purchase and running costs of these ink jet printers. Forget all that nonsense you hear about making £10 on each T shirt. You won't. You'll make around a fiver and probably have to pay for the postage, packaging and inks out of that as well. 

i. If you intend selling DTG T shirts on E Bay the number you will have to print, sell and post will have to be in the hundreds per week to cover the cost of the machine, the inks, the packaging, the post, the maintenance of the machine etc etc. You will see some of the BIG players doing this and their margins are tiny. The one man one DTG printer businesses appear briefly, start to sell their shirts for under £6 in desperation and then fold.

j. You will rarely get a day where there isn't a 'problem' with them. They are doing what they are not designed to do so expect it.

k. People want printed T shirts for next to nothing. And I mean next to nothing. Forget all the drivvle you will hear about 15 and 20 quid. Where are they selling these cotton T shirts that they bought for £1.50 and printed a picture on the front for that? Knightsbridge? A quick search on E Bay will find you thousands of funny T bespoke T Shirts for under 8 quid.

l. Vinyl is easier, cheaper and lasts for ever. You can pick a cutter up for £300 and a heat press for £200. There - get going for £500 and try it before you give a salesman 10 grand.

m. It is not straight out of the box despite what they say. It will take you ages to get to grips with it.

I hope this helps. It's a LOT of money and hard work and only a tiny percent make it pay let alone cover itself. 

If you work on the basis of advertising, printing, selling and posting approximately 5 T-shirts a day just to cover your costs you won't be far wrong. You will be working hours a week just to keep the DTG salesmen and ink sellers in work. Don't forget you've got to source your T Shirts which is all time and money.

Are you ready for all the ink suppliers and DTG printer salesmen to try to convince you that this is written by a screen printer (I'm not) a seller of Vinyl equipment (I'm not) or an importer of pre-printed T shirts (I'm not).

Ask them why there's ALWAYS at least 10 second hand DTG printers for sale on E Bay and elsewhere. If they were such a money spinner you wouldn't get hold of them for love or money.


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## crazymike

A lot of truth there bertie2000.

You really need to print 5,000 shirts a year to make it
profitable and to keep the ink flowing.

It is not a part time business.


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## marzatplay

All very good points although I know some that are making money with it. The truth is that for every 1 that is making money with it, there are 5 that are not.

Which DTG printer did you get burned with?


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## Smalzstein

Disagree on the whole quality thing. Yes DTG will EXCEED the quality of scree printing both in detail and durability. The only draw back is you cannot reproduce certain spot colors (but their are not that many).

And you can make money with it. I know a lot of people who do. Both big print houses and small businesses run out of the room. In fact most of the neflexes belong to small busineses.


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## bertie2000

Not me personally but someone very close to me - it was was an R Jet.

They lost about £7 grand plus inks plus spares that ran into hundreds plus about 10 hours a day for 12 months of their lives. I thought about doing a specific historical cash flow to highlight the absurdly low gross profit / net profit ratios of buying into DTG printing. It would be shocking. 

I have been with this individual when they have looked at imported printed T shirts being sold at a fiver in a local market and they commented they would barely break even at that figure. I once did '*** packet' maths and timed the whole set up and print $ post exercise based upon a tenner retail for the T shirt (which was a generous figure!) and I worked out they weren't even making minimum wage even if the machine was running 8 hours a day (which would be a miracle). 

It would be bad enough some poor s0d working all hours (setting up web sites / selling on E Bay/ working on the laptop / wrapping T Shirts going to the Post Office / talking with suppliers etc) just to watch them make about 3 quid an hour but then to take ten grand off them and charge them absolute stupid money for the inks and any labour costs is just taking the P.

I cannot believe these DTG guys are still in business. I've yet to meet anyone who, hand on heart, can stand up and say; " I bought a dtg printer for ten grand, pay 5 grand a year for consumables and inks, work around 8 hours a day and earn around £15k a year from it".

If you can't do that sort of money buy a burger van. It's easier. 

A guy has set up in the indoor market a few miles up the road from me. He's got his laptop , his dtg printer, his stall all set up. I bet he ain't there in 6 months just like the small shop in the arcade that was there last year doing the same.

If you are in two minds about what route to go down and are reading this. Listen carefully -

1. Learn to screen print. The quality is unsurpassed. Go on a course. Put a big shed in the garden and do it in there. It's dirty and a new skill but a screen print T shirt is in a league of its own.

2. Learn how to do sub printing and buy a printer that can do sublimation confidently for about 500 quid. Buy a GOOD swing away heat press (300 quid), You can only do light garments but the print quality is very good and it is a low risk venture to start. If you don't carry on and you flog it all for about £250 what you lost about 4 or 5 hundred? You can also sub print other goodies like mats, flags, lighters, phone cases - all sorts of things to add to your portfolio.

3. Buy a vinyl cutter to go with the heat press - it will cost you about 300 quid and will pay for itself quite quickly if you have to start selling cheap (5 quid) T shirts to compete.


Ask yourself why they don't rent DTG printers out. I can rent numerous printers for example lasers running up to 30 thousand quid at retail but when it comes to DTG they will only enter into a 'lease'. No mention is ever made of renting one to you. Could it be that after a few weeks into it most people realise it's a bum steer and that a minimum lease term and charges makes them a tidy profit even when you realise the whole set up is expensive and crap.


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## bertie2000

Smalzstein

Wow!  perhaps you could clarify and provide us all with a list of these 'lots' of people making all this money out of DTG printing?



Do you have specific turnover / profit figures to run against their overheads or are we all just wasting time reading yet more anecdotal waffle about the sums that can be made on DTG forums? Could you even provide how many shirts a day they turn out of their machines and what they pay for the blanks. Do that and I'll provide the net figures for you. I can assure you unless they run 24/7 it will not be 'a lot'.

As for the quality comparison. You reveal to us all that you are not a screen printer that you must sub it out to someone else.
If you were you wouldn't even consider saying that the quality is the same.

It's not. It's a mile off.


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## bertie2000

Oh my God I just read where you said DTG print is more durable than screen printed garments!!!!

How ridiculous.

To anybody reading this forum PLEASE ignore that statement - it is absurd. 

It' s as ridiculous as saying a smart car is as good off road as a Land Rover.

I also read you are based in Poland - do you have any idea what overheads we pay in Western Europe for just about anything???? And that these overheads come out of profits??


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## Smalzstein

bertie2000 said:


> Oh my God I just read where you said DTG print is more durable than screen printed garments!!!!
> 
> How ridiculous.
> 
> To anybody reading this forum PLEASE ignore that statement - it is absurd.
> 
> It' s as ridiculous as saying a smart car is as good off road as a Land Rover.
> 
> I also read you are based in Poland - do you have any idea what overheads we pay in Western Europe for just about anything???? And that these overheads come out of profits??


Yes I know because I have both political science and economy degree and I travel a lot through Europe.

And yes I have also automatic screen printing machine. 

I see that you are under informed. Please read other sections of the forums. Read the sucess stories. Read about the new advances in ink and pretreatment technologies. Printer and ink prices dropped also significantly. Our current avarage cost per print is about 1.00 - 1.50 $. Cheapper then vinyl. 

And I will say it again DTG is as durable as screen printing now. And screen printing quality will always be lower then DTG resolution and detail wise. 

You are making all this fuss with history of only guy as an argument.


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## BrianHahn

I really like the posts by bertie2000. One tid bit I would like to add is that most of the DTG printers do use a good quality Epson (or equivalent) print heads. The print head alone is very expensive. Whether it is for a DTG printer or for a solvent ink printer the head is usually in the $1000 range as an OEM cost. Epson (or equivalent brand) ends up making the money here. For a while, in China, they were disassembling cheaper Epson printers that cost less than 1k to just get the printer heads out of them for use in larger printers. The printer needs to be modified to adapt to printing on a shirt which requires some special parts. These special parts will be procured in much lower volumes than parts for say a standard inkjet printer. I agree that DTG printers are more expensive than they should be however, there are reasons that they can't be as inexpensive as say a Ricoh sublimation printer which can use standard inkjet heads. If there is an issue with the printer and for some reason a new Epson print head is required to correct the problem then that warranty cost (1k per occurrence) also needs to be added into the mix. I think eventually we will see good quality DTG printers in the 3.5 - 4k range.


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## Smalzstein

BrianHahn said:


> I really like the posts by bertie2000. One tid bit I would like to add is that most of the DTG printers do use a good quality Epson (or equivalent) print heads. The print head alone is very expensive. Whether it is for a DTG printer or for a solvent ink printer the head is usually in the $1000 range as an OEM cost. Epson (or equivalent brand) ends up making the money here. For a while, in China, they were disassembling cheaper Epson printers that cost less than 1k to just get the printer heads out of them for use in larger printers. The printer needs to be modified to adapt to printing on a shirt which requires some special parts. These special parts will be procured in much lower volumes than parts for say a standard inkjet printer. I agree that DTG printers are more expensive than they should be however, there are reasons that they can't be as inexpensive as say a Ricoh sublimation printer which can use standard inkjet heads. If there is an issue with the printer and for some reason a new Epson print head is required to correct the problem then that warranty cost (1k per occurrence) also needs to be added into the mix. I think eventually we will see good quality DTG printers in the 3.5 - 4k range.


Well this is the main problem. People see DTG printers as plug and play like desktops. They are not. They requre maintance. Most of the horror stories came from user error and lack of maintance. 

And the avarage Epson head cost is not 1000 it's 500 - 600 USD.


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## bertie2000

I'm informed enough to realise you're trying to tell everyone in here that those of us that live in Western Europe can make as much money out of a dtg machine as you can in a country where the minimum wage is £2 an hour, income tax runs at 18% ;where the average wage for someone working in legal is under 5 quid an hour and you can buy a 2 bedroomed apartment in the capital for £50k. 

Good luck bringing your dtg printer over here and trying to make a profit.......

By the way my Economics hons degree was from Manchester. I'm shocked you didn't factor in disparate fixed and variable costs - where did you say you got yours from? 

I repeat (as will 99%) of others who have tried dtg -

1. The result is NOT as durable (Don't listen to Smalzstein- he's a silly man). Screen printings is, has always been and will always be FAR better. That's why the big industrial manufacturers of printed products use it (and thermal foils) and not dtg.

2. Unless you churn out about 200 shirts a week (or live in a country like Poland where your overheads are virtually non existent) you will NOT make money worth talking about. 

You will hear all sorts of tosh from people who have connections to the suppliers or who know someone who knows someone who knows someone who is making lots of money from a dtg..... yeah sure.....

Smalzstein - do us a favour and let us know what you think 'good' money is will you?

The following figures are based on 20 shirts a day which is going pretty flat out for one man one machine (if they were lucky enough to be that busy!!) to pre-spray, print, organise and post.

Let's do some sums for our well travelled Polish Economics 'graduate' shall we?

Fixed cost - £12000 (call it £18000 with interest)
Variable costs on machine - £1000 (conservative estimate)
Costs of inks (estimated over 3 years) - £6000
Total thus far £25000 over a 3 year pay back term.

T Shirt blanks @ approx £1.20 each = £34 per day = £170 per week = £8500 per annum = £25500 over the 3 years.

Total fixed + variable costs so far = £50,500.

That equates to total costs of £16800 pa (approx)

Thats £323 per week total costs to include pretty much everything including the interest charges on the purchase price.

20 shirts a day @ £5 profit each - £500 profit a week

After overheads of £323 a week = £170 a week profit (approx)

Conclusion?

£170 a week is just shy of UK national minimum wage for all the stress and hassle of trying to build a business. It is also based upon doing 20 shirts a day which, trust me, you won't do. I haven't even factored in waste. If I did that you would barely make as much as a paperboy.
Like I said earlier the only people making money out of DTG are dtg resellers, dtg consumable sellers and companies who produce vast quantities at tiny margins and who only pay sub minimum level wages (as in Eastern Europe or Asia)


I have no doubt there are some simplistic flaws in my 5 minute beermat maths but we all get the gist.

Smalzstein - £170 a week might get you a bijou residence in Warsaw and an enviable lifestyle but over here mate it will barely pay for a weekend in a YMCA.


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## thedigiguy

DTG printing is a different business model than silk screening. DTG equipment does have a unique set of problems that you don't find with other imprint options.
That being said, I am one of those who over the years has made a lot of money printing and selling DTG prints. Its not for every application or customer, but I have found it served a significant need in my customer base.
I have had as many as five DTG printers in my shop at one time.
The DTG market is growing and will continue to grow as new and larger companies enter the market. Epson is in the market with their own printer. During SGIA I was fortunate enough to see Belquttes new printer based on the Gen 5 head. Many if not all the printer companies are hard at work making improvements to their platforms or new models. 
DTG isn't for everyone. Dtg is growing, getting better everyday, and its here to stay.


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## utero

I'm sorry but I can't agree with a lot of this.

- Yes most DTG printers around the £10k mark will use Epson print components but to think they are simply Epson printers with a different casing around them is wrong. The print engine is different as you are not just laying CYMK down to paper. These printers are also not mass produced for the home market therefore there are more costs involved in aftercare sales etc, when you buy an A3 printer from PC World do they come out and install it and then come out and fix it under warranty should anything go wrong - no.

DTG prints are not as good as screen prints - not true. Whilst screen print will always have an advantage in terms of production times, spot colours and ink costs, no screen printer not running from their shed is really going to be interested in producing a 10+ colour print for an order of 2 t shirts without charging set-up for the screens etc. There are some crappy DTG printers out there and it's up to any buyer to really do their homework. 

I am now on my third brand of DTG printer to find a company that actually know what's what, back up their products. I had a previous dtg supplier tell me to clean out a damper with tap water! I have many customers that are very happy with the printed results from DTG. 

The price tag of ink may look expensive and if you're looking to knock out shirts for a fiver then I guess it is, but that's not the printers fault - that's running a business where you're not making a mark-up that will put you in profit. I have sold shirts on Ebay for a number of years using DTG each one has a tidy mark-up after all costs are considered. The cost of CYMK prints on shirts with DTG is pence rather than pounds. I may spend £175 on a litre of white but with that litre I'm making a minimum of three times that amount off it and more.

Vinyl is not cheaper, if someone comes in with a vector with a lot of intricate detail, am I going to spend all my time hunched over the vinyl weeding it out - no.

Let's be honest here. A decent screenprinting operation is going to set you back £15k minimum for the carousel, the screen set-up materials and the curing etc.

I could waffle on and on but there is a learning curve to any print method and for every person that has been burned by DTG there will be 10 who are happy with their machines and make a healthy living from it. I currently use an R-Jet and yes there have been a few issues with it but everyone of those issues has been dealt with promptly and beyond my expectations.


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## MetroMan

This just looks like a flaming thread.

You have the attitude in your typing of a person that has just bought a DTG printer, didn't look after it and just came here to rage about it when he had to pay for fixing.

You said, go into the garden blah blah. I live in Central London (Shoreditch). Maybe you should visit, there are like 1/1,000 homes that have a garden. Please rethink your garden idea.

A lot of people use DTG in conjunction with other methods, as was said earlier it is not for every customers needs, but neither is any of the printing methods.

I have not even set up my business yet, I am still researching properly, but you my friend seem a little bit hostile towards a method that you claim not to have even tried!!!

This thread can inform people, (not much though). As I said, this is just a flaming thread! 
I encourage people to see through the rage and to not listen to just one person. If you do your research properly then you will see what is best for you and your business plan. Not all businesses cater to all audiences/the same audiences.

Kind Regards
Thomas


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## EricDeem

Someone on here has been EXTREMELY misinformed on the current state of DTG. A lot of screen printer's have blinders on when it comes to DTG. I always refer back to how the paper printing industry went digital many years ago. A lot of offset printers thought that digital would never take market share from analog (offset). Guess what?!?! I was at one of the largest printing shows in the country (not apparel) and can you imagine how many manufacturers where showing off their new offset printer? Zero. Zip. Nadda. It's not a matter of if this change will happen with the t-shirt printing business it's a matter of when.

With machines like the Aeoon and Kornit Avalanche, DTG is right on the heals of production speed for many screenprinters but the output quality is WAY better. Can your screen printing equipment print 2500 *different* full color prints in one 8 hour shift? Trying to compare screen printing to DTG is like trying to explain why someone would buy a Bentley over a Vauxhaull...both have 4 wheels, brakes, steering wheels right? Both do the same thing but are in totally different leagues.


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## 23spiderman

Boguslaw, Chuck, Tony, Thomas, and Eric all beat me to it with some great input. i, too, completely disagree with the original poster. my first DTG printer was an AnaJet FP-125 and i made money with it, even with AnaJet's high ink prices (2008). i now run a NeoFlex, and not only to i bust out beautiful, detailed prints, i still make money on it. 

i won't ramble on regarding the initial post, but just a couple of notes..."Greyish" white ink isn't a failure of the DTG industry; it's a failure of that user. R-Jet printers are good printers that can put out some really nice looking prints. they definitely have the capability of printing bright white. most of the other complaints are the result of that particular business structure. we've done as few as 1 shirt and as many as 1,500 in a single order. is the pricing structure different from screen printing? yes, but mainly due to the time it takes to print as opposed to the consumable costs.

in my shop i screen print, use heat-press vinyl, and DTG. i can make or lose money on any of them, but the result will be my failure, not the industries as a whole.


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## MetroMan

23spiderman said:


> in my shop i screen print, use heat-press vinyl, and DTG. i can make or lose money on any of them, but the result will be my failure, not the industries as a whole.


But I bet you make more money as a result of not having to turn people away. 

More variety of kit means more variety of jobs to accept.
Different rates you charge and speed of delivery.

This is why DTG is an essential part of printing today. Not the focal point, but definitely essential.


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## bertie2000

Thomas (aka Metroman) you haven't even had / used a dtg and yet you think I'm wrong....oookay....

You may see mine as 'flaming threads' - I see yours as totally uninformed and purely hypothetical. It takes b alls to come onto a forum of which you have no experience to judge those who have. Pop back in here in 12 months when you're ten grand down and give us feedback won't you? And as for the soundbites like ''DTG are an essential part of printing today" - I'm only guessing here but have you been to a sales pitch/ read a brochure? 


23spiderman saying that dull whites are a failure of that user - erm even when the engineer did it?

The way some of you throw phrases around about 'business structure' pricing policy' and 'business model'. You print T shirts for God's sake. Too much watching the Apprentice? I attended Institute of management lectures for years and I've never heard such pretentious waffle in my life. 

I understand that some of you have bought into a very expensive failure and that you have committed. I also understand that, even despite that huge investment, you still can't do full front printing on T shirts thereby making you effectively compared to these guys -


ELVIS LION - FULL FRONTAL PRINT


I also understand that you probably don't have any other means of earning a living so you HAVE to stick with it and pray to God it works out but how about a little honesty once in a while? If more of you that promoted this dreadfully poor quality, totally unsuitable technology was more transparent the price would plummet and a genuinely fit for purpose product would probably appear on the market to fill the void. 

You won't though; and you'll all end up the 'betamax' clothing producers of the 21st century very soon. Desperately trying to recoup your investment from an obsolete means of production.

Just watch.

To anyone reading in two minds about DTG.... Don't.

I'm not alone in this belief and unlike the 9 success stories and 1 failure quoted out of hand by an earlier poster I fear the numbers may be more the other way around. It's just that those who wise up early on don't discuss it ad nausea on forums like this to try to bolster their own confidence.

However if you fancy what is commonly called a 'vanity business' by all means go for it. (Just don't tell your accountant)


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## lkt1954

What I find real interesting in all this "BS" is-1) bertie 2000 doesn't even own a dtg machine- someone close did. Does close mean in distance or relationship?? 2) Has 6 post and they are all to rant about dtg.

My guess is dtg is cutting into his business and he has his "knickers" in a knot.


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## 23spiderman

easy there, Bertie, i didn't attack you outright. i simply pointed out that some of the things you were complaining about are not "industry" issues.

my post was to simply show that i do make money with DTG. i've been in the garment industry since the mid 1990's. am i a full-fledged expert at everything i do? of course not. i'm still learning today. have i made a net profit on every item i've touched? of course not. there will always be failures in any business. but my business, as a whole, is not a failure. i have a net profit in each of my processes. i've been doing DTG since 2008, so i'm not a beginner there either. you put out the challenge; i simply responded that it is possible to earn a living with DTG, and i'm one who is doing just that.

oh, and i too have an Economics degree, though i'm not sure that it has anything to do with my DTG printer. maybe it does have something to do with my overall business. a little bit less of your hostile rhetoric, and more constructive discussion would be welcomed.


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## utero

If it was a betamax tech as you put it then why have Epson jumped on board and produced their own DTG printer.

I've had crap white prints from doing screenprinting, down to the fact that I was inexperienced. The fact that you can't do an all over print with DTG is mute, you couldn't do it screenprinted as standard either without suitable plattens and set-up to make the screens. 

Should I have just took £10k and set light to it instead? - no because my investment in the machine I have now is well on the way to being recouped with just one print customer.


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## EricDeem

Aeoon speed - YouTube

/end thread

It sounds like somebody was "sold" on a DTG printer without doing their homework and now they want to blame the "industry" for the issues that have obviously affected them. I can assure anyone reading this that DTG is not a fad nor is going away. I actually have no problem with you being scared of the emerging DTG industry...leaves more money on the table for DTG shops to take from screen printers who refuse to accept reality. The margins being made via screen printing are just penny's per shirt whereas DTG margins are dollars per shirt. It amazes me how close minded some old time screen printers are to new technology. Get on board or get left behind....there are several major blank garment manufacturers working on developing blanks specifically for the DTG industry what does that tell you?


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## killroy

To say you can't money with DTG is ridiculous. I'm a screen printer at heart but love what DTG can do.
We're always getting the 1-12 shirts orders with full color front and back that we just kick down the road. If one of my regular customers want full color on small orders we just bite the bullet. The price we charge for variable data is sometimes really high, so high that we rarely do them. DTG can fill that gap. Also when designing for screen printing we're bound by colors and resolution. We're always battling this when we're designing, especially on simulated process jobs. Having both in a shop can be very rewarding. One can compliment the other. People that run out and only get DTG will be at a disadvantage if they are bidding against a screen printer on certain jobs. If I'm biding on a 300 shirt job that's all static a DTG guy can't beat me. My ink and labor cost are so cheap, something that a DTG guy has to really look hard at. We'll lose jobs over cents to our competition. I stay away from small orders and variable data in screen printing, something a DTG will eat me up on. To be able to run all static with screen printing and than run all variable data on DTG opens many doors for me. The small orders with full color will never be turned down again or better put "Kicked down the Road". Also if a customer gets his order and there were holes in a couple shirts that we didn't catch or some type of print error, we can set those up DTG and send them out. I hated when a job has been tore down and a customer would call saying someone forgot to order and now they need 5 shirts. Depending on how often they order dictated how that was handled. Those are common situations that we run into all the time. DTG can solve all of those problems for us. Also to say that you can get a better looking print with screen printing is ridiculous as well. If your getting better looking prints with screen printing than you need to fire your artist. Being able to design with 2880x1440 in mind is huge for a screen printer. That's crazy!! Your artwork should dictate that. Now if your designing simple text work that's 2 or 3 colors or some simple clipart, that's different. Sounds like your friend bought into DTG and didn't have the right market for it. You can't blame DTG for that.


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## MetroMan

I apologize that I am reading into many areas before I jump neck deep into this industry.

I am not willing to throw cash at something that I have not properly researched. Maybe you are, maybe that's why your so anti-DTG. Everybody knows that old "my friend" chestnut.

Whatever happens, I wish you the best of luck with your business. I hope you prosper from the customers that you get and learn from the ones that you lose.

But I must say to you. Your reply to me just shows how childish you actually are. We are not trying to be on your back like turtle shells. We just have a difference of opinion.

You may be good at screen printing but I think you are maybe somewhat of a narrow minded person.


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## bertie2000

Wow you guys have seriously bought into the whole £300 Epson-converted-into-a-£12000-DTG-with-a-couple-of-hundred-quids-worth-of-tweaks thing haven't you?

Do any of you want to buy a bridge or maybe some Polly Peck shares?

There are none so blind as those that won't see. I'll leave you clothing magnates to try to recoup your £10 - £12 Grand 'investment' plus ridiculous running costs and even more ridiculously over-priced printer consumables from a rapidly shrinking market with increased competition from overseas that offers up gross profits of about a fiver per unit from a machine that can only produce about 20 items a day. ( And, let's be honest here, isn't really made for either endurance or industrial use is it?)

As I said before I bet you wish were all making as much as the dtg resellers, retailers and ink sellers 

Back to huddling up and your evangelising about DTG guys. Now all you need to do is convert the customer that can buy your products for a fraction of the price you're having to sell them at using dtg 


10 to 12 grand and obscene running costs? No thank you very much. Buy an ice cream van chaps. You'll make more in two hours flogging whippy ice creams out of one of those than you will in a day trying to flog low quality 'funny' T shirts that wash out after 5 washes on E Bay (with the other 3000 sellers) for 8 quid a chuck. 

DTG as good quality as screening......loool!! 

Psssst - Just because you've been told that by the dtg sellers and that's what you say on your web sites and E Bay shops doesn't actually make it true you know


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## EricDeem

Wow somebody doesn't have a clue about profit margins and what can be made via DTG. 

1. I have made over $12,000 in a single week doing DTG printing.
2. I have shirts with 30-50 washes on them that look as good as screen printed shirts with equal wash cycles.
3. Screen printing CAN NOT replicated the resolution quality that is DTG. Even the finest mesh screen can't create the same droplet size/variation as a digital printer.
4. How much does a 15 color automatic cost these day?
5. You can NOT compete with DTG on setup times
6. You can NOT compete with DTG on required shop size
7. You can NOT compete with DTG on low run customized orders

You sell hamburgers while DTG sells steaks! If you haven't figured that out yet..you never will. Good luck in your screen printing business. Now go troll somewhere else!


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## 23spiderman

bertie2000 said:


> Wow you guys have seriously bought into the whole £300 Epson-converted-into-a-£12000-DTG-with-a-couple-of-hundred-quids-worth-of-tweaks thing haven't you?
> 
> Do any of you want to buy a bridge or maybe some Polly Peck shares?
> 
> There are none so blind as those that won't see. I'll leave you clothing magnates to try to recoup your £10 - £12 Grand 'investment' plus ridiculous running costs and even more ridiculously over-priced printer consumables from a rapidly shrinking market with increased competition from overseas that offers up gross profits of about a fiver per unit from a machine that can only produce about 20 items a day. ( And, let's be honest here, isn't really made for either endurance or industrial use is it?)
> 
> As I said before I bet you wish were all making as much as the dtg resellers, retailers and ink sellers
> 
> Back to huddling up and your evangelising about DTG guys. Now all you need to do is convert the customer that can buy your products for a fraction of the price you're having to sell them at using dtg
> 
> 
> 10 to 12 grand and obscene running costs? No thank you very much. Buy an ice cream van chaps. You'll make more in two hours flogging whippy ice creams out of one of those than you will in a day trying to flog low quality 'funny' T shirts that wash out after 5 washes on E Bay (with the other 3000 sellers) for 8 quid a chuck.
> 
> DTG as good quality as screening......loool!!
> 
> Psssst - Just because you've been told that by the dtg sellers and that's what you say on your web sites and E Bay shops doesn't actually make it true you know


thank you for posting this! this proves that you really don't know much at all what you are talking about. except for flogging whippy ice cream. i know nothing about that, so i can't say whether or not you are an expert.

anyway, 20 shirts a day? really? what size is the artwork?

i've had my NeoFlex for over 3 years and she's still going strong. industrial? yes. based on an Epson 4880 that rides along a single drive screw that moves the printer over the substrate. she prints all day long without fuss.

i guess we could go back and forth forever, but it's clear that you are not well informed in the DTG industry. you've proved that with your comments. i don't care whether or not you ever use DTG again, but i do care when truth mixed with fallacy is shared as fact.


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## MetroMan

Thank you my friend. 

I think that was the nail in the coffin for the DTG hater.

I guess he is going out of business through a competitor with a DTG printer looool.

No beer and no tv makes homer *something* *something*


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## tusa

Bertie,

You should make your own DTG machine and DTG inks. And then sell it to us for $200 for the machine and $1 per gallon. Also make sure you provide customer support and warranties.

Thanks!


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## djque

One question so why does sublimation out last DTG and is cheaper on inks. lol most of you DTG people dont even have a clue. I use to work for kodak and epson dont believe what they tell you. they just want your money. as dtg was blowing up so they said wait a guy on t-shirtforums made this printer with our head from a cheap printer. 

we need to get on that boat and make a different head and fool them to think its a better head. and sell these units for $10k plus.

the inks are very very cheap and im not go even tell you where its brought from.

now I do like DTG prints but im damn show not go pay $10k plus for a epson 4000+ printer that is turned into a DTG . look at sawgrass patend for sublimation ink. they **** was hella expensive now you can get sublimation in 180m for $15 before it was damn near $500 to buy. these companys are a rip off. 

go make a t-shirt and ask Tom Ford or MK to sell it with there tag on it. how much did you spend to make that shirt yes. $1.60 ($1.50 for the shirt .10 for the ink) now they go sell it for $100 cause it says Tom Ford or michael kors on a name tag we make.


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## TUANISAPPAREL

You haters are 100% right. DTG is horrible do not get into it you will only loose money it's a total scam. Prints wash out after 3 washes. Now excuse me while I go make my $2,000 daily deposit from my DTG business. We don't need anymore DTG business in the market so trust me when I say you will loose money ;-)

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using T-Shirt Forums


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## djque

im not a hater i actually like it. But know first hand how these company run. didnt say u cant make money with dtg as i see american apparel do it everyday


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## MetroMan

You guys digress, back to DTG being part of future printing and not a waste of money.


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## andreas2000

Just finished an order of 1500 t shirts with around 20 different colors printed try that with screen printing


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## CanarianDrifter

I think this post was put here to dissuade people to purhase DTG printers because of failure of some one with their printing experience. Because a friend is not making money. That's not reason to put down a whole industry because of it. Many other business ventures fails but is not as much about the equipment but the structure of the business, ability of the owners to make it work and markets where they operate.

I have heard here more positive about DTG than against it. Obviously OP is upset and demoralized with a business model that he or his friend have failed.

DGT is not for everyone, if you only print with DTG it can be a daunting task. If you business is garment printing, a DTG and Screen Printer is the way to go. Both serves an important part in the business and will allow you to serve your market properly. Small full color runs and large spot and full color work. Quality wise on full multicolor process work DTG will achieve the best result, resolution, detail and overall look.
Screen printing, spot colors and limited high resolution process work on large runs is more cost effective and good quality. It all depends on the ability and knowledge of the operator regardless of what method you use. You can have a Ferrari and it will not guarantee you will win the race, you can have a Pinto and it you know what you are doing you may win that race.

I also disagree with most of the arguments and conclusion the OP posted here.

CD


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## Remark

Bertie2000 may be my new favorite forum member! We went the DTG route. Bought what I believed, and still believe, to be the best machine on the market. Customer service was outstanding, the "Family" was quick to help and extremely knowledgeable. Prints were great. But was I recognizing 50 shirts an hour? 40? 30? Nawww man. 20 whites. An hour. Double pass and what-not. We are a quality first shop. Went through ink, swabs, cleaners, wipers, rags...kind of like owning a Jaguar. Looks great, does cool stuff, not for us. This industry requires work trucks, not fancy whips. Now I know there's folks doing well with it. My man Larry, who purchased my 2 units (I was sold 2, you know, for backup) is sharp as a knife and apparently has a proper business model. Fact of the matter is I can come in my shop and crack out 1000 shirts off my press, clean up and turn off the lights. Pantone colors aren't a problem. Good luck DTG printers. I'll send work to Larry whenever I pick it up. But for ME and MY shop...Plastisol, water based and discharge inks only. Need less than 12? I got vinyl by the yard Scooter.


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## lee bromfield

bertie2000 regardless of whether i agree with you or not do you really have to be so offensive and patronising to smalzstein? we are all on here for a common reason and you may disagree with each other but don't be so rude to other people


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## Emortal

Buying a DTG is no different from any other industry. If you go in blind, a salesman is going to take advantage of you. After that, it comes down to business sense. Do you have a customer base already? Do you know how to acquire one? Or are you just planning to sell your funny t-shirt ideas on Etsy? DTG doesn't fail. People fail.


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## identityprinting

Hey Bertie
You made some interesting points, however, i cannot help thinking that perhaps in future when they write about the print revolution of 00`s they may use your comments to give a example of a "Luddits " point of view.

Through out history when change comes you always will have your detractors and people who do not embrace change.

I think the best example is the Industrial revolution in Lancashire England when they introduced the "Spinning Jenny" into the Cotton Mills, there were riots and deaths !
but nothing stopped in the way of progress.

With anything new there is a cost. look at DVD Machines, Computers etc when they all first came out they were a ridicules price compared to what they are now.
The same will happen with DTG, market forces will make it find its own level.

As regards making a living today ? you need to look at you marketing.
It is a shame you did not state some of the advantages with DTG always good for a well structured argument !
No screens or set up, Customer service " yes as many colours as you like sir, no problem"
sample in 5 mins,and the best of all,for a online retail business print on demand so no WASTE stock.

Myself and Business Partner started with DTG about 4 years ago with one machine we now have 11! 

I think Screen printing equipment will be on the Antiques Road Show before the DTG Machines,lol.

Seriously stick with it mate.

Kind Regards


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## bigtshirtfactory

Hey All

There seems to be two haters of DTG in this world, screen printers and people who's DTG business hasn't worked out for them.

Screen printers, like yourself, hate it because something has come along that is new and scary and screen printers generally don't invite change!. I also don't know anyone out there that suggests that DTG produces better prints than screen printing, on many levels it doesn't but you are really missing the point all together. If I am given some artwork with an untold amount of colours in it then I can have that sampled in 15 minutes, a screen printer would just laugh! We know that for spot colours then screenprinting is the best way to go. In fact if I get a job come in for 50 dark shirts and one or two colours then it's off to the screen printers with it. Which brings me on to my second point. Sometimes businesses just don't work. Whether that be marketing, timing, bad luck or laziness, sometimes it just doesnt happen, you can't blame DTG printing for it, thats just an uneducated generalisation.........from a screenprinter! 

Nobody ever said the printing game was easy, it takes a lot of hard work, dedication and very thick skin. I should know, I was screenprinting before I got into DTG, however, I couldnt use screenprinting for what I wanted to do, DTG was the only way forward. Fair enough it's not for everyone but you can't lambaste it just because it didn't work out for one person.


Am I slightly agitated by Bertie, I think I may be!


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## j3rkface

I'm pretty much with Bigtshirtfactory and some others on this one. I spotted the original post looking for DTG information, doing research myself since I have not committed to the purchase. I original read the post and thought "man, glad I read that before committing to buy". A little ways down in the thread I switched to being angry after focusing on the fact that Bertie2000 doesn't even own a DTG printer and his information comes second hand, almost like a passer-by.

Anyways, simple economics applies, these DTG printers are not engineered for the masses like your average ink or laser printer. Their target consumer is much more refined and minuscule in comparison, yet these machines require even more engineering than a standard printer. It's just like t-shirts, the more of a single design you print, the less your overhead is for setup and operations. If you spend the time to setup a complicated shirt run with a crazy design/colors, then you only print one or two shirts, those shirts will cost a ton more than if you printed a thousand of the same design. I don't think it makes any sense to hate on the price. Obviously the costs will come down as the market becomes more competitive.

It also doesn't makes sense to knock the process. Every other post from a reputable member on this forum has stated that these things require maintenance. As much as 10-15 minutes to turn on and get ready, and an equal amount of time to shutdown. Clearly shops doing really limited quantity shouldn't have this as their primary means to do business. I personally am looking at this as a supplement for business. There are definitely pros and cons to DTG, sadly the original post was all about the negative, a lot of which seemed pretty objectionable. 

Lastly, there are some decent Youtube vids from other forum members showing their DTG printing in action. Most are of designs that make sense for DTG and some of which are from companies that push serious product. Obviously it is working for a lot of shops.

I would have a better taste in my mouth if Bertie would have made this post from the perspective of an owner. Clearly DTG isn't for everyone but there is no need to try and taint our opinions and basically call the other forum members (who say they do well with it) liars. A little people skill goes a long way, but that's just my opinion. For now I find value in some of the rebuttal in this thread and will consider that in part of my purchasing decision.

Cheers


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## Jmelwak

TUANISAPPAREL said:


> You haters are 100% right. DTG is horrible do not get into it you will only loose money it's a total scam. Prints wash out after 3 washes. Now excuse me while I go make my $2,000 daily deposit from my DTG business. We don't need anymore DTG business in the market so trust me when I say you will loose money ;-)
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using T-Shirt Forums


this made me laugh


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## Marc101

DTG printing is the future for a few reasons, but here is 1.

I am 30 years old, and my market of customers is even younger. This group of customers want designs on shirts that require so many colors and detail it would make a screen printers head spin.

The biggest problem DTG printers have is coming into the game with a screen printers mind frame. I personally have never screen printed a shirt, and never will because my customers do not want basic vector 3 color images, they want full color ARTWORK.

I have a niche market of customers that are willing to pay top dollar for top quality prints on a real Epson DTG printer.

DTG printing is barely 10 years old, I dont even want to imagine the level it will be at when it reaches the age screen printing is at now, and I am not going to compare apples to figs.


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## crazymike

You have to realize that most of the shirts printed in the US are 1-3 color vector art.

Like you said yours is a niche market. 20 years ago they were saying that embroidery
was going to take over screen printing but it only made a bigger total market.

You need to take your blinders off and see the big picture.

Also there are many items that can't be printed on a DTG.

And I have been screen printing for 24 years and printing with a DTG printer
for over 9 years.


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## Marc101

I found within the last 10 years that more young people are getting into computers, images are getting larger, and they contain way more colors and detail now. I also found people want them on shirts.

Small DTG units are not made for printing 1000 shirts a day with 1 simple color, I know this, but this is exactly why I use strictly DTG printing. I am not trying to print 500 units a day at a profit of $1 per shirt, I am trying to print 30 shirts a day at a profit of $20...

I am not trying to argue screen printing vs DTG, I like them both, and I know they both have a place. I am simply pointing out that I found DTG printing can make you a nice profit, if you know your target market, and how to get them.

If you come into DTG printing with a screen printers mind frame, you will be doomed, but I can see DTG printing compliment a screen printing business perfectly, exactly like embroidery can.


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## crazymike

I'm finding that people in our area are going back to the simple basic designs. Things
keep changing back and forth.


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## killroy

crazymike said:


> I'm finding that people in our area are going back to the simple basic designs. Things
> keep changing back and forth.


Same here. We do a lot work for Fraternities and Sororities all across the US and most them usually order 1-4 color stuff. Not having the capability to produce a low cost shirt really narrows your Market. I know the mind set is different for screen printers and DTG. If I only had 1 option on the table, I'd def go the screen printing route. It really depends on the route your going to take. If you want to take the traditional route and sell to your local Market like schools and local Businesses your going to have a hard time competing with a screen printer. Most of your Schools, non-profit, local Businesses, and anybody wanting to raise money with t-shirt sales need a low cost shirt. Low cost doesn't mean it has to be a simple 1-3 color vector design. Google "Simulated process", "4 color process", "Index process" for screen printing. Take a look at some these shirt that were produced with the above methods. They are anything but simple vector work. These jobs are created with raster images "just like DTG". A 4 color process uses the same CMYK that a DTG uses "transparent ink". A screen printer has the ability to add spot colors on top. That's a really nice option if you can't adjust it on the press or computer. The 4 color process a screen printer does is usually done on a 305 mesh screen, lower resolution than DTG, but with some amazing results. We're limited to very light garments for the 4 color process, and will do a simulated or Index process for dark garments. A good screen printer can do some amazing prints with any of the above methods. One thing a good screen printer knows is his limits with resolution and colors. We're bound by this. When we push this to the limit, some great looking shirts will follow. 

I'm fascinated with the technology behind DTG. I love the variable data aspect of DTG. Maintaining our inventory on our showroom floor can be done easier with DTG for those items I sell at higher price points, so DTG would be a good fit. When inventory was low on certain design we would wait till we had a certain amount before we restocked. Not with DTG. The money we probably lost because it wasn't in stock could more than make up for the extra cost of DTG. 

DTG and Screen printing can be profitable. You just need to know which direction you want to go. Both have strong and weak points. Knowing your hard cost of producing a shirt is a must.


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## Marc101

killroy said:


> Same here. We do a lot work for Fraternities and Sororities all across the US and most them usually order 1-4 color stuff. Not having the capability to produce a low cost shirt really narrows your Market. I know the mind set is different for screen printers and DTG. If I only had 1 option on the table, I'd def go the screen printing route. It really depends on the route your going to take. If you want to take the traditional route and sell to your local Market like schools and local Businesses your going to have a hard time competing with a screen printer. Most of your Schools, non-profit, local Businesses, and anybody wanting to raise money with t-shirt sales need a low cost shirt. Low cost doesn't mean it has to be a simple 1-3 color vector design. Google "Simulated process", "4 color process", "Index process" for screen printing. Take a look at some these shirt that were produced with the above methods. They are anything but simple vector work. These jobs are created with raster images "just like DTG". A 4 color process uses the same CMYK that a DTG uses "transparent ink". A screen printer has the ability to add spot colors on top. That's a really nice option if you can't adjust it on the press or computer. The 4 color process a screen printer does is usually done on a 305 mesh screen, lower resolution than DTG, but with some amazing results. We're limited to very light garments for the 4 color process, and will do a simulated or Index process for dark garments. A good screen printer can do some amazing prints with any of the above methods. One thing a good screen printer knows is his limits with resolution and colors. We're bound by this. When we push this to the limit, some great looking shirts will follow.
> 
> I'm fascinated with the technology behind DTG. I love the variable data aspect of DTG. Maintaining our inventory on our showroom floor can be done easier with DTG for those items I sell at higher price points, so DTG would be a good fit. When inventory was low on certain design we would wait till we had a certain amount before we restocked. Not with DTG. The money we probably lost because it wasn't in stock could more than make up for the extra cost of DTG.
> 
> DTG and Screen printing can be profitable. You just need to know which direction you want to go. Both have strong and weak points. Knowing your hard cost of producing a shirt is a must.


You got the right idea!

I believe it is all about knowing your target market, and what each one can do for you. Either can work perfectly well on there own, and even better with each other as well.

A person can now start up a website and have thousands of different designs up, yet never have anything in stock but blank shirts, because the minute a order comes in for any shirt they simply print on demand. This is something that was unheard of before, and almost impossible with screen printing because you would have to have 1000s of shirts pre made, and not be sure they will all sell.

Now you can simply add a product up and when it sells, MAKE IT, where screen printers can simply sell on a wholesale level unless they pick and choose what they want to pre make wisely.


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## ghostofmedusa

bertie2000 said:


> c. The quality of DTG is absolutely nowhere near that of a screen printed one. NO amount of waffle in here will ever change that. I have screen printed T shirts that are still being washed and worn from over a decade ago. My DTG ones are crap in compariosn.


I think you have that one backwards, Home Slice... Silk screened tees with half-tone photo realistic images look like sheer poop next to well printed DTG images... And an 8yo Silk screened Tee will crack and fade like a 76 year old sun-bather's face, if washed 20x a year.

I have a multi-colored (and I mean around 200 identifiable colors) batch of shirts that are going on their 200th wash, and still look incredible. And it is ridiculous what I do to destroy shirts. Those were done with DuPont ink though..

The bottom line is this: Lets say you have 100 hours to devote to DTG-ing once you purchase *any* machine. You should divide your time like this:
- 20hrs to DTG machine RIP and maintenance/ and 80hrs to researching *HOW TO CURE YOUR INK*

...Cause most salesmen don't have a clue when it comes to the correct way to curing ink. All printed shirts look great at trade shows. Most come out of the first wash looking like chopped liver (ugly), which would cause any nay-sayer to vomit DTG untruths (not saying you) on a given DTG forum.

Correct curing is the difference between cracked prints and long lasting vibrant prints. Bottom line: T-shirts are a consumable, imperfect commodity. And no-one should ever buy one with the expectation that it will last forever.. Like Car tires. Most t-shirts are made from plant material, and most seams will unravel with time

Hope this helps.
.


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## ghostofmedusa

TUANISAPPAREL said:


> Now excuse me while I go make my $2,000 daily deposit from my DTG business...



$2000/day? Holy Crap-oly
I need to come buy your place and take notes...


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## ghostofmedusa

All I had to see was a couple videos where Threadless, Red Bubble, and Cafe Press (all multi-million dollar shirt printers) were using DTG to print shirts quickly, and successfully...

Ya, DTG Sucks


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## William Guan

partly wrong,partly correct,it depends on who handle it


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## Cart110

When I registered on this site I said I was looking at a DTG printing system that has never been applied to t-shirts. I have a 20 year background in paper printing and frankly looking at t-shirt printers that print one or two shirts at a time did not look very profitable based on the volume produced. 

Now reading this thread I am finding even more problems then I knew with current DTG printers. No installation service, little training, print location different on every shirt, slow warranty service. 

The printer I want to purchase is fully guaranteed for labor for one year and lifetime replacement of parts. The service people will install the printer and will train us in the operation for up to a month. I can extend the warranty but the computer, print head driver and print head are large and users report excellent reliability. I will wait to see if it is needed.

I have several options to maintain color vibrancy and durability. My production manager has 25 years experience with digital printing and when he saw the samples from the machine said we can match multiple colors anywhere in the image.

The components on this printer have been supplied for the last 15 years by the same companies making the oversize ink jet printers. The only improvement needed over those years is the print head is now up to 1440 DPI. My early career included multiple color screen printing and this printer samples are better than I have seen in screen printing.

Now for the most profitable part of this printer. It will print up to 36 t-shirts every 15 minutes. They are printed in 12 shirt groups so by the time the last shirt is printed the next 12 will be ready to begin. I will be able to insert any size t-shirt in any group ahead of the print head. 

I expect problems in printing on t-shirts but the equipment has been used successfully to print cotton fabric that was made into dresses.

Can you imagine how I feel living on social security while my associates are under employed or unemployed and being told I have no credit history or debt and as a result no credit score so I cannot obtain a business loan. While the government has excellent training in business operation they are next to useless in finding funding. I have tried crowd funding, a large waste of time since all you do is try and get friends and relatives to contribute to your goal just to give the web site owner 15% to 20% of it to them. 

The number of internet funding sources are unending and totally unregulated as a result they are mainly scams to take your money or to take over your business if you are a success. The latest one would provide a credit card for the full amount if I transferred two high balances to that card. The rest is simple they squeeze you by reducing the credit limit and increase the interest rate on the entire balance. They take over you business and sell it for anything they can auction it for. I have had several call on the phone asking for a fee of $500 or more and they will search for a funding source. They literally do nothing except to ask for another $500 fee because they are so close.

I believe I am on to the future of DTG printing that is why I am still working to make this happen.


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## Smalzstein

36 shirts in 15 minutes with white ink?


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## iChris

I have to agree. I spends thousands on a DTG printer and it just sat around for years. The maintenance is very high once you put ink in it and use it. I often wondered why the costs were so high for a ,printer'


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## Cart110

Not sure of white ink coverage question but because of the print head size it can put more ink down per pass. The competitive manufacturer has his own proprietary ink formula that not only covers in one pass but is fast drying, He prints color right behind the white in the same pass so that machine would not loose any time. Until I can actually print from my own machine I will not know for sure but I could buy ink from that other company. Then there is the question of better pigment possibly added to the white ink. My hope is that ink problems will be a minimal delay in getting up to production speed.


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## keepontruckin

it sounds to me like Bertie messed up because he bought the machine and then realised he didnt know how to sell tshirts

next time generate orders first, get someone to drop ship, then when you have enough volume, buy the equipment, learn how to use it properly and scale up 

never mind £10,000 spent on a machine you should have got a refund on your economics degree mate


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## StormJetPrinter

very nice topic and its helpful.


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## k77lem

This was an interesting read... 4 years on from Bertie's original post, I am curious if everyone feels the same or if they feel DTG has moved forward at all and improved??


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