# Do you dilute your pre-treatment for dtg?



## sunnydayz (Jun 22, 2007)

Here is a question that I have searched the forums for and cant find an answer to, how many of you using dtg printing dilute your pretreatment? Do you dilute just for lights or both lights and darks? I am trying to figure out whether I should dilute. If you do dilute, what have you found to be the best mixture measurement? Thanks so much for your input. I am still learning my machine and have not wash tested yet, although I think I will today and see how they have come out, I have been using full strength pre treatment so far, but I was reading posts where people have had issues with peeling and such and was just curious.
Thanks so much

Bobbie


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## zoom_monster (Sep 20, 2006)

sunnydayz said:


> Here is a question that I have searched the forums for and cant find an answer to, how many of you using dtg printing dilute your pretreatment? Do you dilute just for lights or both lights and darks? I am trying to figure out whether I should dilute. If you do dilute, what have you found to be the best mixture measurement? Thanks so much for your input. I am still learning my machine and have not wash tested yet, although I think I will today and see how they have come out, I have been using full strength pre treatment so far, but I was reading posts where people have had issues with peeling and such and was just curious.
> Thanks so much
> 
> Bobbie


 I only use on garments that get white ink. When I got mine I was using about a 60/40 dilution as per the instructions but I was having a problem with staining on pastels and lighter colors, so I went to 50/50. I do believe that on lighter colors that still use white I could either use less of the mixture(lighter coat) or just a more dilute version of it. You just need to experiment and work it out to your technique of doing things. From what I've seen, too much does no good and the peeling is caused buy using too much ink and not having it contact the fiber and pre-trear coating (ink on Ink)


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## jki540 (May 29, 2007)

A timely question, Bobbie. I just got a DTG and am in the process of refining my pretreat methodology as suggested by Ian and the others who have a lot of experience with this. I also have not done my wash tests yet. It will be interesting to compare our results with one another.

For my first test, I used 1 part pretreat and 2 parts water. There was no 'box' and the print quality was decent. Not perfect, but decent. If it doesn't wash out, i think this set-up will be sufficient. My best result with this formulation was when i sprayed the shirt thoroughly (3 passes with my sprayer). If I only make one pass with the sprayer, the white ink doesn't have enough to adhere to.

My second test is to use a spray bottle to lay down a base of water, and then come back over it with 100% pretreat solution. After that, i blot the solution into the fabric using both a squeegee and sponge (2 different tests).

I'm testing three different dark colors: brown, black and navy blue. I'll post my results as soon as the shirts dry and I can print on them.

My suspicion is that it's all a balancing act between: box effect, strength of white, fabric quality, washability, and fabric color. I'm not sure a single formulation will acheive perfection in all categories, so it becomes a matter of where you're willing to tradeoff. Personally, I hate that box effect, so I'm willing to sacrifice on that hardcore white color in order to eliminate the box.

My $0.02.


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## DAGuide (Oct 2, 2006)

The other key thing to consider is what device you are using to lay the pretreatment down and how much of this solution is layed down. For example, if you an HVLP sprayer that gives you a good mist, you might use a solution that is more pretreatment than distilled water. If you use a sprayer that lays down much more than a fine mist, you might want to increase the amount of distilled water in the solution. This is why most people say that printing white ink is an art and you have to practice / test. You will also find that the amount of pretreatment in the solution might change depending on what fabric you are printing on and what color the garment is. Lots of variables and the only way to find out is to run some test (print and wash test).

One of the best recommendations I have heard is to create a log of your different tests. Use some different pretreating techniques (i.e. different % of pretreatment solution, apply it using different types of devices, blot with towel vs. use a sponge brush, let it air dry vs. heat press to dry,...). Write on the tag of the shirt a number or letter that will cooridnate with your log. Use both the front and back of the test shirts to save some money.

Hope this helps.

Mark


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## zoom_monster (Sep 20, 2006)

What JKi just explained is an excellent study. Another piece to add is the weight of the fabric. As Pink pointed out several weeks ago, lighter wieght dark shirts print much better than fat hairy ones. Get reject shirts, pre-treat, print cure, wash and keep notes. throw these in your wash repeatedly. Put multiple prints on the same shirt using different techniques and or settings. The time you spend now will allow you to be more succesful later.


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## sunnydayz (Jun 22, 2007)

Thanks so much for you input, this is giving me a good idea as things to try. So far I have printed just using full strength but am going to try different dilutions. The reason I asked this question is because I notice the square after curing the pre treatment is very noticable and I was thinking it might be too much. I have not washed them yet, will do tonight to see what happens. Your input is greatly appreciated. I have noticed where people have problems they ask what causes them and usually it is either pretreatment or curing of the ink. so I figured I would ask now and try a few different things to see what works best from the start instead of figuring it out later . Thanks again

Bobbie


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## jki540 (May 29, 2007)

Hey bobbie...Please post the results to your testing to this forum. I'll do the same, and hopefully we can learn from each other!


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## Printzilla (Mar 22, 2007)

Bobbie - please call me.


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## zoom_monster (Sep 20, 2006)

sunnydayz said:


> "........ so I figured I would ask now and try a few different things to see what works best from the start instead of figuring it out later . Thanks again
> 
> Bobbie


Even when we have the best teachers, one still has to make it work in their own world. I've taken bits and pieces of what I've learned in this forum as well a how I was trained. The big thing is the feedback that you get when you observe what you do and see how it affects the final result.


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## sunnydayz (Jun 22, 2007)

Printzilla said:


> Bobbie - please call me.


Mark, I called but you didnt answer so I left a message, you can call when you get a chance.

Bobbie


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## sunnydayz (Jun 22, 2007)

jki540 said:


> Hey bobbie...Please post the results to your testing to this forum. I'll do the same, and hopefully we can learn from each other!


I am wash testing my first shirts right now, and I will try to post the results soon.

Bobbie


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## treadhead (Jul 26, 2006)

My typical procedure was to use 50/50 on colors and 100% on dark and black shirts. On light shirts with white ink, I would use the FastBright to avoid staining.

However, I have run a couple recent small jobs using 50/50 on black shirts which seemed to work pretty well. I made sure I got a good coat of pretreatment on the shirt using several passes and rolled it into the fibers with a small paint roller. Logically it make sence...if you are diluting by 50% but spray double the amount on the shirt.....you are effectively putting the same amount of pretreatment down but with more water to help spread pretreatment and saturate the shirt.

This also seemed to reduce the box and any staining...although you still have to watch the lime green shirts I noticed. 

I then put down two coats of white underbase at 1440 HS. I know many of you are getting a nice white underbase with only one coat but I just seem to always need 2 on colors or darks. This is true even with 100% pretreatment.

Anyway...just my thoughts.


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## jki540 (May 29, 2007)

Has anyone ever printed onto a dark shirt while the pretreatment was still wet? And if so, what effect did this have?

I notice that when I print white, some of the ink gets absorbed by the dryness of the fabric, and the coating of ink is not even. I'm wondering if a small bit of moisture on the fabric will allow the ink to lay down more 'wet' and thus provide a more even coating of white.

Any thoughts on this experiment?

Also...How do you get your printer to lay down 2 coats of white ink? I can't figure that out, but i think it's a great experiment, because my basecoat of white isn't always thick enough for the color to go on top of.


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## sunnydayz (Jun 22, 2007)

jki540 said:


> Has anyone ever printed onto a dark shirt while the pretreatment was still wet? And if so, what effect did this have?
> 
> I notice that when I print white, some of the ink gets absorbed by the dryness of the fabric, and the coating of ink is not even. I'm wondering if a small bit of moisture on the fabric will allow the ink to lay down more 'wet' and thus provide a more even coating of white.
> 
> ...


I dont know if this is correct but I would think printing with the garment wet you would have a chance of the pretreatment clogging your printhead as it is a starch like substance, I was told by the vendor never to get the wet pre treatment anywhere near my machine. As for laying two white layers it depends on your software you are using but you should have a setting where it asks how many passes you want on your settings. Usually for doing a dark shirt it will say something like-Color_1 pass, and then-White_1 pass, on my program they are in the advanced settings menu one right below the other, this is where you would change the number of how many passes you want. hope this helps


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## jki540 (May 29, 2007)

yikes! Thanks for the warning, bobbie. I guess there's a reason for those rules!

OK...i'll look in my settings to see if there's a similar option for my printer.

Thanks!


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## sunnydayz (Jun 22, 2007)

jki540 said:


> yikes! Thanks for the warning, bobbie. I guess there's a reason for those rules!
> 
> OK...i'll look in my settings to see if there's a similar option for my printer.
> 
> Thanks!


I see you said you have a dtg printer, is it the hm1, if you go to your control panel on you comp and click on printers, then go to your hm1 printer, right click on properties, then click printer preferences, down on the right hand side of the screen you will see advanced, click advanced it will take you to the advanced menu. Once there go down to I think it is printer features and you should see where it tells how many passes, on there you can change the white pass to 2 instead of 1 and then click ok and it should work.


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## jki540 (May 29, 2007)

hi bobbie...Nope...I don't have an HM1. I actually just got an Anajet. I'm still getting adjusted to it, but so far, i like it. I was deciding b/t the HM1 and Anajet. I thought the costs of the machines were similar (HM1 higher upfront; Anajet higher inks), but i liked the simplicity of the anajet. I eventually need to train others on how to use the anajet, so simplicity was more important to me than super duper print quality.

but i'm very curious abt your results as they become avail. right now, i think i have a good pretreatment technique figured out. the prints look pretty good, so it's off to wash-testing.

i'll keep posting as i make progress. so far, my printer has only clogged once and i got it cleared pretty fast. the routine maintenance is kind of a pain, but i'm used to it from some other equipt (non-tshirts) we use.

thanks again for all your help! happy printing!

p.s., another problem i have...after i print, i put the shirt (ink still wet) under the heat press. i put a teflon sheet on top. after 30 seconds, i open up the press and pull the sheet up. the sheet always sticks to the ink! Do you ever have the problem? If so...any hints?


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## zoom_monster (Sep 20, 2006)

jki540 said:


> ...p.s., another problem i have...after i print, i put the shirt (ink still wet) under the heat press. i put a teflon sheet on top. after 30 seconds, i open up the press and pull the sheet up. the sheet always sticks to the ink! Do you ever have the problem? If so...any hints?


try Backing off on the pressure. When Pressing on/near seams or collars, I'll keep it all off contact and increase the dwell time a little.


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## sunnydayz (Jun 22, 2007)

zoom_monster said:


> try Backing off on the pressure. When Pressing on/near seams or collars, I'll keep it all off contact and increase the dwell time a little.


Thats what I was going to say, You only cure your ink for 30 seconds? hmm that is a short period. it sounds like it is sticking because it hasnt fully cured.

Bobbie


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## jki540 (May 29, 2007)

oh really? i'll try lowering pressure and increasing the dwell time. i'll see if that helps with the sticking factor.

thanks again for your input!!!


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## jki540 (May 29, 2007)

thanks guys...i tried your suggestions and it helped a lot. so, the longer the dwell time, the more the ink cures, and the less sticking should occur, right?

is there a point at which the shirts will all start to scorch because the dwell time is too long? i want to ensure zero stickiness (a great way to ruin a perfect print!), but i also dont want to char the shirts.

thanks in advance for any help!


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## zoom_monster (Sep 20, 2006)

jki540 said:


> thanks guys...i tried your suggestions and it helped a lot. so, the longer the dwell time, the more the ink cures, and the less sticking should occur, right?
> 
> is there a point at which the shirts will all start to scorch because the dwell time is too long? i want to ensure zero stickiness (a great way to ruin a perfect print!), but i also dont want to char the shirts.
> 
> thanks in advance for any help!


 What temp are you using?


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## jki540 (May 29, 2007)

i've got it at 335 degrees F.

i've lightened up the pressure like you said, and increased the dwell time to 60 seconds. i also allow 10-15 sec after opening the press and removing the teflon sheet. so far, the results have been much better.

but tonight i'll do my first wash test, and we'll see if the process works from start to finish.


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## Lbloves24 (Jul 2, 2007)

Thanks for those tips, getting ready to take my new DTG out of the box and get started. Love the input.


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## zoom_monster (Sep 20, 2006)

jki540 said:


> i've got it at 335 degrees F.
> 
> i've lightened up the pressure like you said, and increased the dwell time to 60 seconds. i also allow 10-15 sec after opening the press and removing the teflon sheet. so far, the results have been much better.
> 
> but tonight i'll do my first wash test, and we'll see if the process works from start to finish.


At 335F, you need to cure at 90 seconds. If you go up to 356F then you can press for 35 to 40 seconds. These are the temps in your manual and depending on your humidity and type of garment you may be able to vary a little from this. Your experimentation and testing will help you with this


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## treadhead (Jul 26, 2006)

jki540 said:


> Has anyone ever printed onto a dark shirt while the pretreatment was still wet? And if so, what effect did this have?


You will run the risk of permantley clogging your head if it contacts a pretreated shirt whether it is dry or wet. Perhaps a higher risk if it is wet but a large risk either way.

If you try to print while the pretreatment is still wet the ink will bleed into the fabric causing your image to blur at the edges. I've done this before by accident.

Hope this helps....

John


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## jki540 (May 29, 2007)

thanks everyone for your input. i'm in cal, so it's fairly dry here. my preference is to keep the heat lower and increase the dwell time. i've scorched a couple of shirts already, so i want to prevent that as much as possible. i think decreasing the pressure was really great advice. thx for that. i would have yanked all the hair out of my head if it weren't for that helpful advice!

for the sake of disclosure, i'm printing onto american apparel shirts. they're very soft and thin. they print rather well (in case you're interested). even with a full coating of pretreatment, there's very little "box effect".

man...i'm SOOO glad i asked about printing on the wet shirts before doing it. Talk about learning from the experience of others!


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## sunnydayz (Jun 22, 2007)

jki540 said:


> thanks everyone for your input. i'm in cal, so it's fairly dry here. my preference is to keep the heat lower and increase the dwell time. i've scorched a couple of shirts already, so i want to prevent that as much as possible. i think decreasing the pressure was really great advice. thx for that. i would have yanked all the hair out of my head if it weren't for that helpful advice!
> 
> for the sake of disclosure, i'm printing onto american apparel shirts. they're very soft and thin. they print rather well (in case you're interested). even with a full coating of pretreatment, there's very little "box effect".
> 
> man...i'm SOOO glad i asked about printing on the wet shirts before doing it. Talk about learning from the experience of others!


Where are you at in cali? I live in san pedro

Bobbie


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## jki540 (May 29, 2007)

i'm in san francisco...is that close?


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## sunnydayz (Jun 22, 2007)

jki540 said:


> i'm in san francisco...is that close?


No your futher north, Im in southern cali

Bobbie


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