# Phoenix Phire 16 x20 anyone?



## DynamicDesigns (Jan 23, 2008)

Hey all,
Thinking of the Phoenix Phire 16 x 20.
Anyone have any experience with it?
Goods?
Bads?

Thanks


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## plan b (Feb 21, 2007)

That press is the same press as the 16x20 hotronix,just private labeled, its a good press, top notch.


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## DynamicDesigns (Jan 23, 2008)

Thanks Roger,
I did some searching before I posted, and it didnt work.
Since then, I got it to work, and found some good reading.
Appreciate the info.

More info will be welcome too!

Thanks


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## knox harrington (Nov 30, 2007)

top notch love mine


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## Air Art Girl (Mar 29, 2007)

Love my Phoenix Phire, use it more then my Geo. Knight. Backed by a company that can tech support and get you replacement parts.


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## Moo Spot Prints (Jul 16, 2006)

I have had a 16x16 for over a year now. The platens did not meet evenly and I had to shim it to fix it. I had decided it was easier to do it myself than it was to replace the unit. My shocks wore out after 8 months and imprintables sent out a replacement set that have been working out fine. They redesigned them (or at least changed manufacturers) so hopefully they won't fail again. Other than that, no problems.

My only concern with a 16x20 is the extra juice that it uses. You will want a dedicated 20A circuit (15A might be ok). Not sure if you can easily convert to 220.

Overall I am happy with my press. The auto-open is a must have. The only time I wish I could turn it off is when I'm sublimating. The release bumps the press and causes ghosting. I would get the 16x20 if I was starting over.


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## scuba_steve2699 (Nov 15, 2006)

The new one has both the auto opening and a pressure sensor! You don't know how much you need that until you use it and get very consistent print. It is awesome!


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## amv101 (Jul 16, 2007)

The Pheonix Pfire does resemble the Hotronix. My question is, why would someone pay the same price for something private labeled? Wouldnt you just get a Hotronix?

I thought the purpose of private labeling was to bring the price down, so they can sell more units, and drive competition, therefore buy more units.


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## Moo Spot Prints (Jul 16, 2006)

amv101 said:


> The Pheonix Pfire does resemble the Hotronix. My question is, why would someone pay the same price for something private labeled? Wouldnt you just get a Hotronix?


It's all about marketing. They're the same except for the paint job. I imagine that having the private label gives it a sense of exclusivity... "You can buy a Hotronix *anywhere". You can only get the PP from us!" 

It probably also frees them to have someone else manufacture the line in the future if hotronix goes under or they have a falling out.


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## plan b (Feb 21, 2007)

I talked to Ben Robinson director of operations at Stahls Hotronix,, thats how I found out that the phire was private label, now it may have some extra goodies that I am not aware of but it seems its just private label.

R.


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## DAGuide (Oct 2, 2006)

Here is a little secret that some people know. Imprintables Warehouse (who sells the Phoenix Phire), Transfer Express and Stahls are owned by the same one company. Hotronix heat presses were made in the same exact building as Imprintables when I visited there about 14 months ago. I know they were adding on to the building, so I am not sure where they are located right now.

I think the main reason for companies to private label an item is to develop a brand name for a specific product. I have seen this work where someone that was right next to a Hotronix distributor purchased from Imprintables that was farther away. I give props to Imprintables for creating such a great brand name.


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## amv101 (Jul 16, 2007)

Actually the reason to create private labeling is to drive competition, create demand, and build more supply. Same with clothing, automobiles and pretty much all consumer goods.

Its an inherit human condition where if one isnt happy with a brand, for any reason, they will buy the opposite, marketed brand, just because. Think about Sprite and Coca-Cola... same company, produce 2 different brands, and compete against eachother. Pizzahut, Taco Bell, and KFC... all one company.

The other reason for private labeling is it reduces marketing overhead. The manufacturer markets to distributors (100s) , then the distributers market and advertise to the consumer (1000s). They offer private labeling so it ceates competition between distributors. Competition drives the economy.

My question is why buy the Pheonix Phire if its the same as a Hotronix? Stahl is the manufacturer of its own brand "Hotronix" and I dont think the company itself, is going anywhere. Hotronix is not a private label made by someone esle.

GroupeSTAHL Heat Transfer Printing

Stahls' Hotronix


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## lgiglio1 (Sep 29, 2006)

I have the 16X20 phoenix phire and I absolutely love it! Great product!


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## Air Art Girl (Mar 29, 2007)

Moo Spot Prints said:


> The auto-open is a must have. The only time I wish I could turn it off is when I'm sublimating. The release bumps the press and causes ghosting. I would get the 16x20 if I was starting over.



This is when I use my Geo. Knight because it lowers straight down and I have to manually open it. I use the Phoenix Phire for all my thermoflex and only some dye sub items.


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## DAGuide (Oct 2, 2006)

amv101 said:


> Think about Sprite and Coca-Cola... same company, produce 2 different brands, and compete against each other. Pizzahut, Taco Bell, and KFC... all one company.


The above examples are really not the best comparision since they are competing products, but they offer different things. The Phoenix Phire and the Hotronix presses are exactly the same except for the color of the presses. I have seen the production line and all the parts come from the same location. The only difference comes up when the items are powder coated and a different name on the press and owners manual.



amv101 said:


> My question is why buy the Pheonix Phire if its the same as a Hotronix? Stahl is the manufacturer of its own brand "Hotronix" and I dont think the company itself, is going anywhere. Hotronix is not a private label made by someone esle.


You already answered this question with these two quotes:


amv101 said:


> Its an inherit human condition where if one isnt happy with a brand, for any reason, they will buy the opposite, marketed brand, just because.


and



amv101 said:


> Actually the reason to create private labeling is to drive competition, create demand, and build more supply. Same with clothing, automobiles and pretty much all consumer goods.


You are correct that Stahls is going to be around for a long time. Stahls also owns companies in Europe and Australia as well - possibly Asia also. Hotronix has had a great name for years and has been sold through Stahls and has private labeled presses for other distributors for a long time. Now, there is another brand (Phoenix Phire sold through Imprintables) that has created a great name. Now, Ted Stahls (owner of all the Stahls companies) has two lines of heat presses with great names and they come from the same one production line. There is more than enough demand for heat presses with the introduction of dtg printing and the continuing growth of digital transfers.

The one thing that has not been touched on is the customer might have a better relationship or relate better with a sales rep from one company compared to the other. I am not saying that there is anything wrong with either company. I have some good friends at both of the companies. Geographically speaking, things are different from St Clairs (outside Detroit) to Masontown (south of Pittsburgh).

I presonally think the concept is genius. This allows the Stahls group to test market some products under one name before releasing it to all the different companies. The two companies also sell different items - especially when it comes to films.



Air Art Girl said:


> This is when I use my Geo. Knight because it lowers straight down and I have to manually open it. I use the Phoenix Phire for all my thermoflex and only some dye sub items.


Two options to prevent this. Option #1: stand over the press like you would if there was no auto open and just hold the handle down. When the press releases, you hold it down and slowly open it. Option #2: get some ProSpray from Conde. It turns your transfer paper into a post it in a way. This way when the press opens up the transfer sticks to the blank imprintable. It also makes removing the paper a lot easier as well.


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## plan b (Feb 21, 2007)

This style of marketing and sub marketing is really nothing new, its a chapter taken from procter gamble products which owns every laundry detergent on the market and then some, there are tons of companies doing this, its just 101.

R.


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## thinkworksdan (Mar 16, 2007)

have a phire. It works well, was very happy with it until recently. My dtg machine has a 16 x 24 print area, so I sought out a cheap press with an impression area of this size. My thinking is that I would only use it when the print wouldn't fit in the 16 x 20 phire. Although it is definetly a cheaper, less well made machine, it heats up A LOT quicker (maybe 5 mins. as opposed to 20 mins. for phire.) I've now made it my main press, even though it doesn't auto open. I got tired of the loud "BANG" every time the press opens. If I had a client in my shop when that thing opens, it never fails to make them jump. I did have an issue with the gas struts not functioning properly (making the press open to fast- even more violence and noise!) imprintables sent out replacements and they've worked flawlessly.


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## amv101 (Jul 16, 2007)

DAGuide said:


> The above examples are really not the best comparision since they are competing products, but they offer different things. The Phoenix Phire and the Hotronix presses are exactly the same except for the color of the presses. I have seen the production line and all the parts come from the same location. The only difference comes up when the items are powder coated and a different name on the press and owners manual.
> 
> You are correct that Stahls is going to be around for a long time. Stahls also owns companies in Europe and Australia as well - possibly Asia also. Hotronix has had a great name for years and has been sold through Stahls and has private labeled presses for other distributors for a long time. Now, there is another brand (Phoenix Phire sold through Imprintables) that has created a great name. Now, Ted Stahls (owner of all the Stahls companies) has two lines of heat presses with great names and they come from the same one production line. There is more than enough demand for heat presses with the introduction of dtg printing and the continuing growth of digital transfers.
> 
> ...


Well I was just using extreme examples so you could understand the basics of the marketing mechanisms used by large companies. If you want something more simple, take GM (General Motors) and compare the Pontiac Grand Am to the Oldsmobile Alero... same exact car... different marketing approaches... you happy? lol... Pontiac is marketed to the younger, more hip crowd, where Oldsmobile is marketed to the older, mature crowd. And as fat as the consumer is concerned, Pontiac does compete with Oldsmobile. All GM cars are like that.

Also, as already mentioned, this concept is genius, but is not the brainchild of Stahls. This marketing concepts has been around since the late 1800s. And they dont "need" to test market the Hotronix brand. It has been around for many years. Testing is done as its is one the most succeful heatpresses out there. They are only expanding thier product reach and developing new private line relationships.

And actually Stahls already had 2 lines, Hotronix and Mighty Press.


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## DAGuide (Oct 2, 2006)

amv101,

I understand that there are several other companies that have used this marketing / business strategy in the past and I never stated that Stahls created this concept. I am only commenting on how they have instituted this strategy successfully. Ben Robinson and his team have done a great job at Hotronix bring along the heat press market. They were the first to release the auto-open concept and they are the only clamshell press with a digital pressure guage.

My statement as to Stahls having two great heat press lines (Hotronix and Phoenix Phire) was a comment based on two presses that compete head-to-head. The Mighty Press line was released because it is an economical line of heat presses. But to be technical, Stahls has those three lines and the lines that are private labeled as well. Either way you cut it, Hotronix is doing a great thing in my opinion.


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## vctradingcubao (Nov 15, 2006)

I'm very happy with my Phire/Hotronix. Its a 16x20 that I ordered from Josh at Imprintables. I ordered originally ordered the Phire but since it was out of stock, Josh suggested that he'll order the Hotronix which is the same thing, only the colors and sub-brands were different. Been using it for almost a year now, no problems at all.


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## clayclayworth (Oct 31, 2007)

Hi Forum,

I'm still in the planning stages of a small scale, custom design t-shirt business I want to start-up using my own artisitic work, but I have no experience yet with the actual process of printing onto apparel. I want to do sublimation printing. I realize that a heat press is probably the most important, expensive, and irreversable investment I will make. I've been doing my homework, and the Stahls Phoenix Phire presses appear to offer an additional level of assurance for accuracy and consitency by providing a digital pressure level readout, so I'm leaning toward one of them at this point. 

Can anyone tell me if this feature can be a true asset for a novice like myself and if it can yield significant improvements in consistency once I gain some empirical knowledge about the process in order to justify the added expense of that press, or if you deem it as just an uneccesary frill? No offense intended toward Stahls. I plan eventually to be purchasing one or another of their presses exclusively, since they appear to be the best line of presses available on today's market. 

That aside (and I'll appreciate any response to the query) my core question is at this point: With regard to t-shirt printing, what might be the advantage of a 16" x 20" press over a 15" x 15"? I have encountered some examples where on-line sellers explain they have abandoned the smaller size for the larger one. Before I leap into the fray, I'd like to get some advice from experienced printers as to why those people might be opting to increase the size.

Thanks for your forum,

Clay


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## paulo (Dec 13, 2006)

I like my PhoenixPhire over Hotronix I like the clean white color.


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## Moo Spot Prints (Jul 16, 2006)

The pressure scale will help you early on. It only gives you a 1-8 level so I consider it vague. The good news is that if you practice and spend some time learning how to press, you will quickly develop a feel for it and won't need to rely on it.

In the end, it's just a heat press. Pretty much any one of them will do. $1300 is not a lot of money considering this will be the primary piece of equipment in your new venture. 

...and it's not irreversible. It's not like you're getting a limb amputated for pete's sake! If you find that you don't like it you can always put it up on the classifieds or on craigslist. You'll recover at least (if not more) half of your investment.


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## Moo Spot Prints (Jul 16, 2006)

clayclayworth said:


> I want to do sublimation printing.


I missed this the first time around. 

If you are sublimating I would NOT recommend the phoenix/hotronix (or any other clamshell for that matter). The auto open feature becomes a detriment as it pulls the paper off the substrate slightly and can cause ghosting. Yes, you can hold the lever down but you'd be paying for a feature you won't be using.

Clamshells also do not apply equal pressure. It's close, but it gets worse the thicker you go. I use foam under my shirts when I sublimate and I have to shim my lower platen to get them to close close to parallel. This can lead to heavy press lines if you're not careful.


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## clayclayworth (Oct 31, 2007)

Thanks for the responses, especially Moo's sage advice about avoiding a clamshell press for sublimation printing. I'm now planning to buy a Hix Swingman 15 x 15 to get me into the mix. By the way, I wasn't expecting to lose an entire arm or leg on the investment, but I'd just hate to spend $1,400 on a new press that I might get $700 back on craigslist if it didn't work out for the type of printing I want to do. You saved me a bundle Moo! 

Thanks again,

Clay


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## Moo Spot Prints (Jul 16, 2006)

Go bigger. 

Once you discover how cool sublimation is, you'll be tempted to do graphics that cover large areas. It will be much easier to do this with a bigger press. I just bought a wide format printer to do just that.


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## clayclayworth (Oct 31, 2007)

Hey Moo,

Thanks for your advice. I agree, bigger is always better, but I've got a bare budget to bleed for this bit. I've got faith, but don't want to splurge unnecessarily on something that just might not work out. If it is a success (wish me luck) and I eventually buy a bigger one, I figure I could use the press at car shows or street fairs to produce products on-site (I've read where that's an attraction for customers).

By the way, I visited your website to see what you're producing. Can't say that I fully understand it though. And I checked into your upcoming events; they appear to be bonafide bacchanalias. If I was thirty years younger I'd probably try to sign-up up for one. These days I'd be better off viewing from afar using a pair of infra-red binoculars. Good luck and don't catch anything.

Clay


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## Moo Spot Prints (Jul 16, 2006)

What's there not to understand? 

You:

Drink beer.
Run.
Repeat.



It's eerily like a cult, but unlike a lot of those, nobody's pretending to be the messiah. We just have lots and lots of fun. 

You're never too old to hash. LA has guy who's 86 and he still shows up every week to run & have a few beers. He falls down a lot but he always makes it to the end. 

As far as the press goes, I totally understand. I was in the same boat when I started. I ended up getting a 16x16 phoenix. It's served me well but I would have been better off spending the extra money up front. I'm now contemplating upsizing to a bigger press. 20x25 sounds about right.


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## clayclayworth (Oct 31, 2007)

Hi Moo,

Allow me to clean that up. It was the member's monikers for your upcoming 'Betty Ford' event that led me to fantasize that there was more to it than running, drinking beer, and repeating. Sounds like you have a lot of fun. Your messiah is Jim Morrison no doubt. Mine too. Ever read his biography?

Clay


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## Moo Spot Prints (Jul 16, 2006)

Oh, there's a lot more to it than that, but that's the basic gist of it. We all have nicknames. Some are pretty raunchy.


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## clayclayworth (Oct 31, 2007)

Hey Moo,

Back to business, can I ask you a question about sublimation inks? Which Sawgrass inks do you use, and do you use a bulk system or the cartridges? Any information will be apreciated.

Thanks,

Clay


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## charmthepi (Sep 10, 2008)

Moo Spot Prints said:


> It's all about marketing. They're the same except for the paint job. I imagine that having the private label gives it a sense of exclusivity... "You can buy a Hotronix *anywhere". You can only get the PP from us!"
> 
> It probably also frees them to have someone else manufacture the line in the future if hotronix goes under or they have a falling out.


the BIG difference is the floating top platen which the phoenix phire has! no more pinching!


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## gmille39 (Oct 18, 2006)

Yep, I have the Hotronix and it's a very good press.


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## Karen Souza (Apr 1, 2007)

Got a Phoenix Phire 16x20 in July at the Providence ISS show from Imprintables. Finally cracked it out of the box 3 weeks ago to do a bunch of plastisol test samples. It's very easy to use, love the auto open & digital readout. (yeah, it made me jump the first few times too) I too liked the clean look of it. So far I'm really pleased.
Karen


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## COEDS (Oct 4, 2006)

I think the phoenix phire is the premier heat press on the market. I think there is a more advanced press.but it cost more than double the price of the Stahls press'. Cliff Hix engineering has a press with a cantilever platen. .... JB


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## gmille39 (Oct 18, 2006)

Karen Souza said:


> Got a Phoenix Phire 16x20 in July at the Providence ISS show from Imprintables. Finally cracked it out of the box 3 weeks ago to do a bunch of plastisol test samples. It's very easy to use, love the auto open & digital readout. (yeah, it made me jump the first few times too) I too liked the clean look of it. So far I'm really pleased.
> Karen


Yes, it's woken me up several times when it's popped open. It's also hit me in the chin a couple times. Yes, I've actually fallen asleep during the 30 secon press time. Heck, I've fallen asleep during the five second preheat time.


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## lgiglio1 (Sep 29, 2006)

I have one and love it. I wouldn't ever buy anything else. Great machine!


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## charmthepi (Sep 10, 2008)

Karen Souza said:


> Got a Phoenix Phire 16x20 in July at the Providence ISS show from Imprintables. Finally cracked it out of the box 3 weeks ago to do a bunch of plastisol test samples. It's very easy to use, love the auto open & digital readout. (yeah, it made me jump the first few times too) I too liked the clean look of it. So far I'm really pleased.
> Karen


 well i just ordered mines today, they said it should be here before the weeks out! i'm excited but not sure which way i want to go as far as printing is concerned. i dont fully understand the whole printing process yet. trying to decide between sublimation and plastisol transfers. i just dont want the box thats seems to be present on alot of transfers. also i'm thinking of useing sub and then also putting a heat transfer over the top of that. any suggestions or insight will be much appreciated...thanks


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## lgiglio1 (Sep 29, 2006)

I use heat transfers and do a lot of the school sports teams. It keeps me busy enough. I don't have the box around transfers and you won't if you use plastisol. if you use transfer paper, you may have some if you don't cut close enough to the transfer image. I only use the paper occasionally. Most of the time I use plastisol. It has been great. I learned everything I could from reading these boards and the awesome people on here. Ask, ask, ask and you will figure it out. Good luck!


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## charmthepi (Sep 10, 2008)

lgiglio1 said:


> I use heat transfers and do a lot of the school sports teams. It keeps me busy enough. I don't have the box around transfers and you won't if you use plastisol. if you use transfer paper, you may have some if you don't cut close enough to the transfer image. I only use the paper occasionally. Most of the time I use plastisol. It has been great. I learned everything I could from reading these boards and the awesome people on here. Ask, ask, ask and you will figure it out. Good luck!


when you use plastisol, do you have to send your artwork to a screen printer or can you use plastisol through your printer?


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## lgiglio1 (Sep 29, 2006)

When you use plastisol you send your artwork or you pick artwork from a company that does plastisol transfers. Companies like First Edition, transfer Express, Versatranz, Ace Transfer, Howard sportswear Graphics Express. They screen it onto a special sheet of paper and then send you the design. You then press it onto your garment.


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## JCregan (Jul 29, 2017)

Moo Spot Prints said:


> I have had a 16x16 for over a year now. The platens did not meet evenly and I had to shim it to fix it. I had decided it was easier to do it myself than it was to replace the unit. My shocks wore out after 8 months and imprintables sent out a replacement set that have been working out fine. They redesigned them (or at least changed manufacturers) so hopefully they won't fail again. Other than that, no problems.
> 
> My only concern with a 16x20 is the extra juice that it uses. You will want a dedicated 20A circuit (15A might be ok). Not sure if you can easily convert to 220.
> 
> Overall I am happy with my press. The auto-open is a must have. The only time I wish I could turn it off is when I'm sublimating. The release bumps the press and causes ghosting. I would get the 16x20 if I was starting over.


Hey MooSpot - I'm a complete noob so bear with me ...

I've got a line on what should be a bargain - used Phoenix / Hotronix / Stahls 16" x 20" Auto Open Clam Heat Press with integrated stand / caddy for $500. I saw you wrote about possible issues with electricity overload (needs "dedicated" 20 amp / "maybe" 15 amp) - is that a real, everyday concern if I'm using at flea market (from the wall 110v)? What about with generator (for outdoor events)?

I appreciate any input you might have - specific examples of overload problems wit unit? - anyone else have a comment / input?

I need advice because ... 

I'm returning PNR PressNRelease 15x15 "auto-open" - others may like it but mine? "Auto-open" doesn't work, "Emergency Stop" doesn't work, platen is a biatch to align - way too complicated for a newbie.

Thanks - Joe


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## JCregan (Jul 29, 2017)

Hey folks - I'm a complete noob so bear with me ...

I've got a line on what should be a bargain - used Phoenix / Hotronix / Stahls 16" x 20" Auto Open Clam Heat Press with integrated stand / caddy for $500. I saw something written by MooSpot about possible issues with electricity overload (needs "dedicated" 20 amp / "maybe" 15 amp) - is that a real, everyday concern if I'm using at flea market (from the wall 110v)? What about with generator (for outdoor events)?

I appreciate any input anybody might have - specific examples of overload problems with unit? - anyone else have a comment / input?

I need advice because ... 

I'm returning PNR PressNRelease 15x15 "auto-open" - others may like it but mine? "Auto-open" doesn't work, "Emergency Stop" doesn't work, platen is a biatch to align - way too complicated for a newbie.

Thanks - Joe


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