# Blacks - ArTainium vs Sublijet



## rusty (Feb 9, 2007)

I've always read that the main difference between ArTainium and Sublijet is that ArTainium has better colors and Sublijet has a better black. I use Sublijet and have a good black, and I've read from a lot of others using ArTainium that they are having trouble getting a good black.

But when I was talking to my Conde rep recently, he said I had it backwards and that ArTainium has a better black than Sublijet. He sent me a sample coaster and it does look pretty black.

Just wondering if anybody else has heard this, or if this is just somebody trying to sell his product (they carry ArTainium and not Sublijet).


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## charles95405 (Feb 1, 2007)

Doesn't make much difference who you talk to ...sawgrass owns both sublijet and artainium!... I just switched to artainium and the colors do seem a bit better...is it because of artainium or the fact I have new printer (1400) and new bulk system..guess time will tell


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## rusty (Feb 9, 2007)

If a company sells one ink but not the other, then it does make a difference who you talk to. The fact that Sawgrass owns both is pretty much irrelevant, because they are marketed and sold as 2 different inks. I'm just asking about the blacks. I've always heard Sublijet has a better black, and never once heard anybody say that ArTainium has a better black, until my Conde rep said it.


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## vkbrown (Aug 5, 2007)

I've used both Artanium and Sublijet. I started with Artanium and wasn't happy with the black, so I switched to Sublijet and liked the black even less. I've ditched my Subliject bulk ink system and have gone back to Artanium and a 4800 printer. Neither of the blacks is perfect, but I prefer the Artanium.


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## rusty (Feb 9, 2007)

vkbrown said:


> I've used both Artanium and Sublijet. I started with Artanium and wasn't happy with the black, so I switched to Sublijet and liked the black even less. I've ditched my Subliject bulk ink system and have gone back to Artanium and a 4800 printer. Neither of the blacks is perfect, but I prefer the Artanium.


What's the difference between the blacks?

Is it easy to switch from one ink to the other using the 4800?


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## DAGuide (Oct 2, 2006)

Getting a good black really comes down to having more than one ink or another. Your artwork matching your profile settings, your printer and the printing software (driver vs. RIP) will all have an impact. The common rumor is that CMY are the same, but the Ks are different. The difference in the blacks will have an effect on how the colors print since it uses some black when making colors. Thus, if you have a darker black, your colors will come out warmer (and possibly not as bright). 

I know that some people have a hard time understanding this concept, but great prints go well beyond ink. I am a Ripley's Guy - I had to see it with my own eyes. After seeing it (for dye sub, inkjet transfers, DTG,...), it really is a combined effort.

Hope this helps.

Mark


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## DAGuide (Oct 2, 2006)

rusty said:


> Is it easy to switch from one ink to the other using the 4800?


The recommended way is to get some cleaning cartridges and clean the lines first. However, I know several people that pull the old cartridges out --> put the new ones in and run a couple of head cleanings to get the old ink out. The two inks are compatible. The key is getting the right profiles for the ink you have installed and setting your color management correctly as well.


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## charles95405 (Feb 1, 2007)

Mark is right on getting the profiles correct. It took me about 2 hours to finally get my profile correct with the new artainium system


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## BigBear (Aug 15, 2007)

Greetings Folks,

I thought I might add a few pertinent comments. Because they are based on multiple prior posts, I will begin them with the relevant quote-

“I've always read that the main difference between ArTainium and Sublijet is that ArTainium has better colors and Sublijet has a better black.”

That is true, to a certain extent. Actually, in years past, the most noticeable difference was in subtle shades of gray with Sublijet inks. That is less true today, although black continues to confound and confuse. The brighter ArTainum colors were as much the profile as it was the ink. At that time, the Power Driver color management system was based on the sRGB color space and the ArTainium ICC profiles are based on the aRGB color space (Adobe RGB 1998).

The color space for Adobe is much larger than that for sRGB because it includes more blues and greens, which also brightened reds.

“Getting a good black really comes down to having more than one ink or another.” “but great prints go well beyond ink” 

True, and for other colors as well.

“The common rumor is that CMY are the same, but the Ks are different” 

I’m not sure that I agree with that rumor. Sublijet inks are based on “emulsion” technology and ArTainium ink is based upon “dispersant” technology. Chemically, there is quite a bit of difference between the two.

As further testimony, Sublijet inks are still not being offered for the 1400. Since it was offered for the 1280 (also a dye based printer) I would have to logically conclude that the main problem is because of the extremely small Pico liter size of the 1400 print heads. The ink won’t go through it.

“However, I know several people that pull the old cartridges (sic the 4800 and Sublijet) out --> put the new ones in (sic ArTainium) and run a couple of head cleanings to get the old ink out.” 

That can be done with the 4800, provided the lines are dumped with the formal Epson 4800 line purging procedure. If the lines are not dumped, there will be numerous problems, with the inks mixing.

In the old days of the Epson 3000 it was much worse. In fact actual cleaning cartridges had to be used to totally clear the lines. The 4800 must be much more effective and efficient in clearing the lines than the 4800. With the 3000 there must have been a considerable amount of residue left in the lines. Without cleaning cartridges the two inks would mix together and plug the print head tighter than a wine cork.

“It took me about 2 hours to finally get my profile correct with the new artainium system”

If you are referring to the 4800 profile, I understand. We also were not enthused about the output with the current ArTainium inks/profile. That is why we developed our own. Too many of our clients are not that sophisticated in color management.


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## BRC (Mar 27, 2007)

Jack

Nice to see you are showing up here. I agree with everything you have stated here, but after all it is hard to disagree with one of the people who wrote the book on dye sub. For those of you who have never been to the Apha Supply websites, you will find they are well worth the time you will spend there.


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## charles95405 (Feb 1, 2007)

Jack my 2 hours was with a new 1400 and bulk artainium system...I had to go through more steps to get my profile correct than I did...or think I did...several years ago with sublijet bulk system. I was happy with sublijet but with a 1280 going out of style and need new ink refills on all colors.. Buying a 1400 with bulk system at Long Beach was cheaper than just the ink for the sublijet.sooo cheap me went with the 1400...so far so good and I have not had one clogging issue...knock on wood


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## BigBear (Aug 15, 2007)

Greetings Terry,

Thank you, for the kind comments. I've got to admit I sometimes feel older than dirt, when I think about making my first sublimation print in 1981 but at least one does pick up a bit of experience along the way.

Have a great day!


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## BigBear (Aug 15, 2007)

Greetings Charles,

As I stated, the two inks are quite different. You should not have any clogging issues. As I stated before, there are differences between emulsion and dispersant ink technology.

What little bit of "clogging" that most refer to is usually print heads that have slightly dried out and pulled air up into the nozzles.

Your color comments about the 1400 was interesting. I'm not sure if you were referring to the profile setup or color output after your setup.

If your comment was based on the setup, then yes, you would have had more detail to attend to with an aRGB ICC profile than you would have with the sRGB based Power Driver.

Hopefully, the increased color gamut made those efforts worthwhile.

If your comments were based on tweaking color output, then we understand that too.

We also developed an additional, optional profile and printer parameters for our clients using the 1400. We felt the output was a bit oversaturated and leaned too much towards the cool blue side. I should note that this analysis/opinion was not shared by other ArTainium distributors.

Nonetheless, with two profiles a client has a choice.


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