# what exactly do I need to trademark and copyright to do slogans and designs on t-shirts?



## cetchdawg (Aug 23, 2011)

First of all is like to say thanks ! I've searched this site many times without being a member. I have found some very helpful info! So Thx ! 

Now my question (s) 

I have searched for weeks and read pages upon pages of info about copyrighr and trademark ! With that said I've read so much that now I'm so confused that what I thought I knew to be factual I'm not even sure ????? 

So I'm looking for folks that have done what I'm looking to try and maybe you can atleast point me in the right direction ? 

My idea is to create a tee shirt / decal company. I have a slogan, name, logo (whatever you want to call it) and I want to have my logo on the from of all my tee's . And I want to use different art work on the backs and on some sleeves ? 

My questions are where do i start ? I know the best answer is a lawyer. But I know with some assistance from folks who have done it on their own i can do it ? 

I plan to have a written agreement with a friend and purchase his artwork . But to claim my name and logo I have no clue where to start on the trademark site ? There are many choices to choose from ? Also what if any would be copywritten ? 

So if anyone has completed the task that I'm about to tackle PLEASE !!! Any info is greatly appreciated. 

Thx 
Chaz


----------



## jkern24251 (Aug 9, 2011)

Chaz, 
I have not started my business yet, but I have been doing a considerable amount of learning. I would recommend you start with a trademark search. I have been entering various names into Google to see if anything close even comes up. However, I plan on using LegalZoom.com to do an official trademark search so I may register my trademarks. I would also consult an attorney concerning your entity structure, intellectual property, taxes, etc. just to be sure everything is legal and legit. IMHO. Best wishes with your plans and your business.
Johnny


----------



## kimura-mma (Jul 26, 2008)

Start by writing a business plan and determining a target market for your brand and products. Then get some shirts and decals made and start selling them. The important thing right now is to create cash flow and prove that your creative ideas can be developed into a sustainable business. Don't get yourself hung up on copyrights and trademarks. If you have a big enough budget to register your IP, then consult an attorney. If not, just start selling and make some money. The legal stuff can be done later on.


----------



## Rodney (Nov 3, 2004)

:: edited thread TITLE to be more descriptive  ::​


----------



## GN (Aug 1, 2011)

There are certain things you cannot trademark. (such as words and phrases) but you can trademark logos. The EASIEST thing you can do right now is add "TM" to your logo. This begins the process. Any image that has that means either the logo is in the process of being trademarked or IS already trademarked. 

It will cost you 325$ to trademark.. but you can certainly do it yourself. Start here:

Trademark Process

read all you can...

then go here to start the application (mid way down)

Trademark Electronic Application System (TEAS)


Also, if the name of your business is the same name as your logo, you can protect that by incorporating either LLC or Corporation and thus no need to trademark. (two birds- one stone)


----------



## kimura-mma (Jul 26, 2008)

GN said:


> There are certain things you cannot trademark. (such as words and phrases) but you can trademark logos.


Words and phrases actually can be trademarked. However, they need to be distinctive and represent a source of goods and services. Basically, the word or phrase needs to be a brand name (aka trade name).



GN said:


> The EASIEST thing you can do right now is add "TM" to your logo. This begins the process. Any image that has that means either the logo is in the process of being trademarked or IS already trademarked.


Using the ™ symbol does not start the trademark process. It can be used even if you never submit a trademark application. Using the symbol just means that you are _claiming_ ownership of the mark. But it does not actually have any legal value at all. It does not mean a mark is registered or in the process of being registered.

The proper way to start the trademark process is to use the mark is commerce or submit an intent-to-use application.

When a mark is federally registered as a trademark, the owner can start using the ® symbol. That is an official symbol that alerts others that the mark is registered.



GN said:


> Also, if the name of your business is the same name as your logo, you can protect that by incorporating either LLC or Corporation and thus no need to trademark. (two birds- one stone)


This is not true at all. A business registration and a trademark registration are separate processes and do not have the same protection or legal recourse.

Registering a business name with your state protects the name from being registered as a business within that same state. This does not protect against the use of the same name when used as a trademark (aka trade name, brand name).

Registering a federal trademark protects the name from being used in any state in association with the same goods and services as listed on the application. This does not protect against the use of the same name when used as a business name (aka corporate name).


----------



## cetchdawg (Aug 23, 2011)

Thanks for all the info ! I assume I'm on the right path ! I plan to create a catchy logo for the front of the shirts and hopefully if it goes as planned the stickers will sell as well ? I have the idea and have ran it by all my friends and family for honest opinions and so far it sounds and looks good ! But then again nobody plans for failure right ? So I'm gonna go at it head first with all I got and hope for the best !


----------



## GN (Aug 1, 2011)

kimura-mma said:


> Words and phrases actually can be trademarked. However, they need to be distinctive and represent a source of goods and services. Basically, the word or phrase needs to be a brand name (aka trade name).
> 
> 
> Using the ™ symbol does not start the trademark process. It can be used even if you never submit a trademark application. Using the symbol just means that you are _claiming_ ownership of the mark. But it does not actually have any legal value at all. It does not mean a mark is registered or in the process of being registered.
> ...



Nike's Just do it is a phrase that is trademarked.. however, unless you have Nike's bank account to trademark a phrase it's not going to happen. I was being a bit more realistic instead of making a blanket statement that words and phrases CAN be trademarked. Trademarks are generally for logos (such as the swoosh). 

And yes adding the TM signals that the process has been started even if no paperwork has been filed. I didn't say putting the TM means it has been registered or filed... it DOES mean that you are in the process which means - to say the least- you are going to start the process at some point. It says right there on the website that this is advised to do if you ever even _plan_ to register your trademark. As far as legal value it does give you some recourse in the same way that as soon as you post literary work it's "copyrighted"... whether or not you would win is a different story, but the tables are in your favor if you have the TM and can prove you had the design published first such as time date stamps. Now,, of course if you have paid the $325 and started the process then you have much more legal prowess.

And your last comment was what I meant.. it protects someone from stealing the name (if it's the same as the business) to use as thier business name. I just wasn't as clear on that- so thanks.


----------



## cetchdawg (Aug 23, 2011)

So none of it really matters if my idea is actually a flop, goes knowwhere and falls on its face ? All of this only matters if it truly does well. ??


----------



## GN (Aug 1, 2011)

cetchdawg said:


> So none of it really matters if my idea is actually a flop, goes knowwhere and falls on its face ? All of this only matters if it truly does well. ??


yeah pretty much. It's great protection if someone steals it and makes millions and you take them to court and it's a deterrent from someone stealing your logo.


----------



## kimura-mma (Jul 26, 2008)

GN said:


> Nike's Just do it is a phrase that is trademarked.. however, unless you have Nike's bank account to trademark a phrase it's not going to happen. I was being a bit more realistic instead of making a blanket statement that words and phrases CAN be trademarked. Trademarks are generally for logos (such as the swoosh).


Trademarks are generally for logos *and* brand names. If the brand name is a phrase, it can easily be trademarked. I know this because I have several registered brand names, and none of them are logos.

That said, trademarking a phrase that is not used as a brand name is very challenging. As you said, it often takes plenty of time and money to accomplish it. But the USPTO does offer a supplemental register for such instances.



GN said:


> And yes adding the TM signals that the process has been started even if no paperwork has been filed. I didn't say putting the TM means it has been registered or filed... it DOES mean that you are in the process which means - to say the least- you are going to start the process at some point.


The ™ symbol is simply a non-official claim. It has no relevance to the actual trademark process, whether at present or in the future.

Which means you can use the symbol even if you have no intention of ever attempting to register the mark.

If you see someone using the symbol, you should assume they are willing to protect the mark through legal action. But it does not mean the process has started or will ever start.

I think you are putting way too much emphasis on the use of the symbol. "Use in commerce" is a much more effective way of starting the trademark process. The symbol is just an aesthetic.



GN said:


> It says right there on the website that this is advised to do if you ever even _plan_ to register your trademark.


Yes, people should use the ™ symbol any time they want, especially of they plan on registering the mark. I'm not arguing that at all. But using it does not have any relevance to the actual registration process. Does it serve a purpose? Yes. Does it actually/legally mean anything? No.



GN said:


> As far as legal value it does give you some recourse in the same way that as soon as you post literary work it's "copyrighted"


No, it is not the same as copyrights at all.

The use of the ™ symbol is at the discretion of the user. Which means the mark has not been searched, approved by an examining attorney, published for opposition, etc. You really think the law grants recourse because someone chooses to use the ™ symbol? Do you have any proof of that? Sorry, but it just doesn't make sense.

To my knowledge, the law grants recourse for registered trademarks and common law trademarks, not the use of the ™ symbol.



GN said:


> whether or not you would win is a different story, but the tables are in your favor if you have the TM and can prove you had the design published first such as time date stamps.


I agree regarding common law rights. But not the use of the ™ symbol.


----------



## kimura-mma (Jul 26, 2008)

cetchdawg said:


> So none of it really matters if my idea is actually a flop, goes knowwhere and falls on its face ? All of this only matters if it truly does well. ??


If your business flops, are you really going to spend the time and money to take legal action against infringement? Probably not.

But if your business succeeds, then that's a different situation.

It's definitely important to protect your IP. But unless you are prepared to take legal action, then trademarks and copyrights don't mean anything. So yes, it probably only matters if your business does well.


----------



## GN (Aug 1, 2011)

kimura-mma said:


> Trademarks are generally for logos *and* brand names. If the brand name is a phrase, it can easily be trademarked. I know this because I have several registered brand names, and none of them are logos.
> 
> That said, trademarking a phrase that is not used as a brand name is very challenging. As you said, it often takes plenty of time and money to accomplish it. But the USPTO does offer a supplemental register for such instances.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure but I think we might be going back and fourth yet agreeing on the same things??

By putting a TM on your logo you are starting the process whether you decide to file or not. I think we both have said that. 
However, I disagree with your statment: 

" But using it does not have any relevance to the actual registration process. Does it serve a purpose? Yes. Does it actually/legally mean anything? No."

Because of this:

Page 9 of the FAQ Trademark Lawbook Guide

How do I establish my “use in commerce” basis?
• Provide the date of first use of the mark anywhere and the date of first use of the mark in
commerce.
• Submit a specimen (example) showing how you use the mark in commerce. See the “SPECIMEN”

page 10.
What is the difference between the “date of first use anywhere” and the “date of 
first use in commerce”?
The date of first use anywhere is the date on which the goods were first sold or transported or the
services were first provided under the mark even if that use was only local. The date of first use in
commerce is the date on which the goods were first sold or transported or the services were first
provided under the mark between more than one state or U.S. territory, or in commerce between
the U.S. and another country



So unless I am understanding this incorrectly, by putting the TM on (without filing) you are establishing a date of first use in commerce which is what you will need (the date and proof of use) when someone DOES file. And that is why i said once you put the TM on take a date stamp of when it was first used. You can't establish "Use of Commerce" without the TM symbol, which is why I recommended he start using the TM symbol. 

And yes I agree.. the law will not grant recourse if the user was using the TM and the person never looked it up to begin with or did thier homework. I agree with you there..but if a person does thier homework, begins using the TM symbol to establish use of commerce and then someone comes along and steals the logo, the person can use the time date in a court of law. And as I pointed out, it will not hold near as much weight as having an official TM.


----------



## kimura-mma (Jul 26, 2008)

GN said:


> So unless I am understanding this incorrectly, by putting the TM on (without filing) you are establishing a date of first use in commerce which is what you will need (the date and proof of use) when someone DOES file. And that is why i said once you put the TM on take a date stamp of when it was first used. You can't establish "Use of Commerce" without the TM symbol, which is why I recommended he start using the TM symbol.


Where in that FAQ info does it reference the use of the ™ symbol?

When it mentions "the use of the mark in commerce," it is referring to the brand name or logo. So what they are saying is, using the brand name or logo in commerce establishes first use.

So to clarify, you do not need to use the ™ symbol to establish use in commerce. You just need to use the brand name or logo in commerce.

The ™ symbol does serve a purpose. But it is not legal proof or a part of the registration process.


----------



## Rodney (Nov 3, 2004)

> have the idea and have ran it by all my friends and family for honest opinions and so far it sounds and looks good !


Be careful about the advice of friends and family. Sometimes their "honest" opinions are "polite" opinions and not unbiased


----------



## cetchdawg (Aug 23, 2011)

Rodney said:


> Be careful about the advice of friends and family. Sometimes their "honest" opinions are "polite" opinions and not unbiased


Thanks, diffinetly taking that into consideration !


----------

