# Pretreatment for Black shirt with red lettering?



## nabs (Apr 14, 2007)

Hi Everyone,

I have been reading the posts beforing posting this to try to find out as much as possible about pretreatment. I have printed on the Kiosk fine and sold white shirts but now I have a black hoodie order... YIKES!! 

I read someone's post that they only pretreat when they are using WHITE? Is that accurate and is that even possible? I'm not even going to even attempt such a thing before asking. 

As far as pretreatment. I have read the info about it and will try it out on a inexpensive t-shirt first, put it through the wash, etc, before even attempting a hoodie. 

Thanks,
Nabs


----------



## TahoeTomahawk (Apr 12, 2006)

Nabs,
You will need pre-treatment for Black and Dark shirts because the printer will lay down a white underbase first in order to reproduce the correct colors. The only time you would not need pre-treat for Black / Darks is if you were going to print a solid black image on there (which sounds crazy, but I have had customers ask for it).


----------



## nabs (Apr 14, 2007)

Thanks Adam..

Wow, what exactly does that look like? I can't wait for them to ask me for that? LOL

Well, I guess I have to go try to do my first pretreatment... YIKES!! I'll go ruin 20 shirts now. LOL


----------



## TahoeTomahawk (Apr 12, 2006)

IMO it looks really bad because you can't see it unless you are about 3 ft away from it. Since the black ink does not entirely match the black cotton, you can still make out the print, but just barely!

Good luck on your print job. Here are some tips.
* Heat press the shirt using medium pressure for about 15 seconds to get the fibers to lay down.

* Use your sprayer to apply an even amount to the shirt. When it looks like a "Fog" has covered the print area, that should be enough.

* Wipe it down with a foam brush to get it even.

* Put it in the heat press and use parchment paper. Do a very light press for about 20 seconds. - Very light so the press hardly even touches the shirt.

* Open heat press and let the steam escape for about 20 seconds.

* Do a second heat press for about 20 seconds, but this time light pressure so that the fibers lay down better.

* Wait for about 2 minutes or so before printing on it. (Sometimes I pre-treat all of them ahead of time, but you may want to practice on 2-3 before you pre-treat all 20 )


----------



## nabs (Apr 14, 2007)

You have to do what the customer wants, whether you like it or not, doesn't matter. 

Thanks so much for all the tips in the pre-treatment process. I really appreciate it. I checked out your site and the t-shirts you printed look wonderful. Some time and I pray to be at that point. 

Thanks again. I'll get to work now and let you know how it goes. Nabs


----------



## nabs (Apr 14, 2007)

HELP, PLEASE! I have tried two black shirts. I have read the instructions in the kiosk manuel and the tips you gave me Adam but with my first shirt the red ink printed but you couldn't see it at all on the red shirt. 

So, with the second shirt I thought maybe I had the press pressure too heavy so I made the pressure on the pressure much lighter and tried again. The same thing happened again. I couldn't see anything on the shirt. 

My setting are as followings: Print Quality: 720x720 When I change to 1440x720 it errors me out and says there is a problem? Why?

I"m doing one pass. 
Media Type: Black Cotton, Right?

Anyting else I'm forgetting to do? Does anyone know why I this isn't working for me. 

Thanks


----------



## sunnydayz (Jun 22, 2007)

Are you printing a white layer first? I know it sounds like a stupid question but do you see the white on your garment before printing the red? make sure you are setting your rip for color layer and automask when you go to print.

Bobbie


----------



## nabs (Apr 14, 2007)

Hi Bobbie,

Thanks for the reply. I did check and I did NOT have the layer type color layer auto mask selected. I just did that. What do you mean by printing a white layer first? I'm I supposed to print a white print of the red letters first?

Nabs


----------



## sunnydayz (Jun 22, 2007)

When you choose color with auto mask it will print a white layer exactly like your color layer first because with the color you need a white base to make the color show. That might have been why you were seeing an error also because you didnt have the media type set correctly to the print type. you should be able to change the dpi now also once you have selected the color and auto mask. Let me know if you need any more help. If you have to push the load button to print you will now have to do it twice as you are now printing two layers, one white and one color. automask is simply telling the printer to print a layer of white like the color.

Bobbie


----------



## nabs (Apr 14, 2007)

Awww, I get it now!! = ) Thank you so much. I'm going to try it again. 

Nabs


----------



## nabs (Apr 14, 2007)

Hi Bobbie,

I did everything you recommended. I printed out which is a big accomplishment...yeah!! but the red I could hardly see on the shirt...please see the image attached. When I tried to select up to 1440 and not 770 quality it still gave me an error so I kept it at 770 when I printed.

Any ideas why the red is so light? The white is somewhat ghosty but I'm thinking because I was testing it on a stretchy shirt? Maybe?

THanks.

Nabs


----------



## TahoeTomahawk (Apr 12, 2006)

Nabs,
first thing is that it looks like overspray. You should try to get the shirt as close to the print head as you can without it touching it.
Second, do a nozzle check, use some clear plastic so you can see if all the nozzles are firing correctly.

Next, are you using Rip Pro? If so go down towards the bottom and select color layer auto mask like Bobbie suggested, then there is a spot that says "White layer resolution" or something similar, it may be set to "same as color" change that to 1440. I also set the number of white passes to 2 to ensure good coverage.

You also mentioned that you rarely do white ink? If so how long has your machine been sitting with white ink but not being used? I wonder if it has settled.


----------



## sunnydayz (Jun 22, 2007)

definately looks like you are too far away from the printhead, if you have the gap sensor on your machine go up till the laser warns you then go down just a little to make the gap light go off. Also I agree with Adam that your white may have settled, try doing several head cleans first before printing to get your white mixing in your lines, you may want to also lift the white ink bottle and just swirl it a little to mix it. Wait to print for awhile after swirling the ink so you dont get air bubbles in your white ink lines. On your rip pro software if you go down to white layer and set it to either medium or heavy and see if that makes your white layer heavier. With the color, in your rip pro settings where is says color and white and gives you the choice of 1 or 2 copies put 2 on the color and see if this gives you better coverage on your color. If your white doesnt print heavy enough with medium density you can also select to do 2 copies on white also. hope this helps. Let us know.
Bobbie


----------



## nabs (Apr 14, 2007)

Hi Bobbie and Adam,

I can't tell you how much of a help you have been. Bless you!! 

You were right about being too far from the print head. The day before I was printing on a hoodie for my nephew and never moved it. After moving the printhead the result is as follows without doing anything else. I probably should have followed some of your other suggestions but I got excited about possibly fixing the issue.

It printed well I think, see the result it's attached. Although, after I washed it I noticed that the red turned pink (but then when I looked at the original picture it looked pink from the start) and there was almost a boxed white flaky ghosty think around the image (probably from the pretreatment). 

I"m guessing that I put too much pretreatment solution. I just don't know how much is too much and how little is too little?

Also, I think when my red ink blended with my white ink it made very light red...pink? Possible?

Thanks,
Nabs


----------



## nabs (Apr 14, 2007)

Do you thin out the pretreatment before spraying? I read in another post that that may help in allowing the shirt not to stain?

Nabs


----------



## sunnydayz (Jun 22, 2007)

What I do with the pretreatment is I spray a light mist of water on the garment before I spray the pretreatment. just to where is mists up on the shirt, this helps with the staining issue. I know some dilute the pretreatment but I just spray a little distilled water first.

Bobbie


----------



## TahoeTomahawk (Apr 12, 2006)

The reason I don't spray water first is because unless you have 2 sprayers it will be uneven. When I tried t his, I only had a spray bottle for the water, then I used the normal sprayer to spray the pre-treat. When it was done, if you look close enough you can see the large dots of water after the print.
The white underbase does not go on as even on the areas where the large dots of water.
I'm sure it would have better results if I used 2 sprayers, so I just cut the pre-treat down to 50/50.


----------



## nabs (Apr 14, 2007)

Thanks, great things to think about from both of you. I don't have two sprayers only a water bottle. 

Do you know why my red turned out more like a pink? See my previous post before the last question. 

I'm thinking I need two passes of the color like Bobbie suggested or two passes of white like Adam suggested...  . So much to think about. 

I might try both and see what happens. As you can see from my second image, it didn't turn out too bad except for the extra pretreatment on my black shirt.

Nabs


----------



## sunnydayz (Jun 22, 2007)

nabs said:


> Thanks, great things to think about from both of you. I don't have two sprayers only a water bottle.
> 
> Do you know why my red turned out more like a pink? See my previous post before the last question.
> 
> ...


You will learn the most from experimenting and seeing what gives you in particular the best results. I can say that for the red, you might want to try a second layer. it looks like your white layer is ok.

Bobbie


----------



## TahoeTomahawk (Apr 12, 2006)

Nabs, I've never had to do 2 layers of color on a dark / black shirt with the white underbase. I use Photoshop, convert images to RGB and apply the ICC profile "Colormatch RGB". For the red lettering you can then make sure they are the color "FF0000" that will give you a nice bright red color.

I would strongly suggest getting a wagner HVLP sprayer from lowes or home depot, we bought ours for around $80.


----------



## sunnydayz (Jun 22, 2007)

I also use the wagner and it works great, I also never have to do a double layer but it looks like either your color profile is not correct or you are not getting a high enough dpi on your color. My first thought was that your printer is not seeing the graphic as red so it is not printing it as red, instead it is printing pink. I would do like Adam suggests and change the red color on your graphic as this might be your problem.

Bobbie


----------



## TahoeTomahawk (Apr 12, 2006)

Good point Bobbie, Nabs also ensure your image is 300dpi, if it's isn't you can always convert it to 300dpi. Converting it to 300dpi will never be as good as artwork that starts at a higher resolution, but it should print better than 72.

Also, you can try to use Photoshop or Corel, select the red area, knock it out and use a paint bucket or similar tool to redraw it with pure red. If the image has been converted to jpg, back and forth a few times, it will be pixelated so in some spots it might try to put a lighter red than others giving an overall print that looks pink. If you need help send it over to me
[email protected]


----------



## nabs (Apr 14, 2007)

I do have a Wagner sprayer. I just tried doing the 50/50 solution on the shirt....no stain. I'm printing now and I'll see if I get the bright red. I did want you suggested with the RGB in Photoshop, thank you!! 

We will see what happens once it is done printing and after I get it out of the wash. 

THanks again,
Nabs


----------



## nabs (Apr 14, 2007)

I have been testing, practicing and testing some more. I can't seem to get a very smooth print of white but attached is the best I was able to do of printing red on black. How good is it?

Nabs


----------



## sunnydayz (Jun 22, 2007)

nabs said:


> I have been testing, practicing and testing some more. I can't seem to get a very smooth print of white but attached is the best I was able to do of printing red on black. How good is it?
> 
> Nabs


You could even try putting another layer of color to make it brighter.

Bobbie


----------



## nabs (Apr 14, 2007)

Bobbie,

I will do that. Dot like look is okay when you get very close? It's not cracking or peeling after I washed it... it's just dottie like if that makes any sense...

Nabs


----------



## sunnydayz (Jun 22, 2007)

nabs said:


> Bobbie,
> 
> I will do that. Dot like look is okay when you get very close? It's not cracking or peeling after I washed it... it's just dottie like if that makes any sense...
> 
> Nabs


Its definately looking much better, What density are you printing the white and is it just one layer?

Bobbie


----------



## nabs (Apr 14, 2007)

I have printed over ten shirts today. Went back to the drawing board and the Kiosk manuel said to do either two passes of white at 720 or one pass at 1440 dpi. So I did one pass at 1440 dpi on this last one and two passes of color at 720. Also, I tried the 50/50 diluted pretreatment for the first few shirts. It just didn't work. I had a lot of cracking, peeling of the paint. I went back to the regular treatment for the black shirts and plan to use the 50/50 for the light garments when they use white. I didn't throw it out or anything. It seems to work for me for the time being. I think I just need a LOT of practice.

Nabs


----------



## sunnydayz (Jun 22, 2007)

nabs said:


> I have printed over ten shirts today. Went back to the drawing board and the Kiosk manuel said to do either two passes of white at 720 or one pass at 1440 dpi. So I did one pass at 1440 dpi on this last one and two passes of color at 720. Also, I tried the 50/50 diluted pretreatment for the first few shirts. It just didn't work. I had a lot of cracking, peeling of the paint. I went back to the regular treatment for the black shirts and plan to use the 50/50 for the light garments when they use white. I didn't throw it out or anything. It seems to work for me for the time being. I think I just need a LOT of practice.
> 
> Nabs


Yep I agree Nabs, it really is a science to printing with these printers. I tell my husband my machine has a personality and I can tell when it is happy because it prints great  I agree with the not diluting pretreatment. I tried this also in the beginning and was not happy with the results. It does work well if you just slightly mist the shirt with distilled water first, for me this got rid of the issue of seeing the pretreatment on the shirt. Those settings sound like they should be good, again it could be something as simple as another adjustment in your graphics program on the red color as sometimes what is looks like on your program might not be the same color your printer sees, just remember what red you use once you find the best one.

Bobbie


----------



## Hansca (Feb 5, 2007)

if I am printing white on light colors I use a cut pre-treatment and just mist very lightly, I usually do this hours before I print and by the time I am printing the treatment has dried and I don't need to cure the shirt/treatment before printing. This saves time/money. When I print dark colors ad black I use full concentrate and ppress firmly to lay down fibers as the shirt dries. We don't use the cheap wagner sprayer that was provided with the machine as this is just a waste of treatment and inconsistent application. We use a auto paint gun that really puts a nice smooth controlled layer of pre-treatment preventing too much treatment on stain sensitive shirts such as purple and hunter green etc. This will just take practice to know what it takes. I hope this helps.


----------

