# Kornit machines Versus Epson based machines



## ROYAL SAVAGE

Streamline73 said:


> I guess I have my two choices finally figured out for our first used DTG machine. We are going to go with a ANA-JET or a Brothers. They seem to have the best user friendly systems.
> 
> If we can get our manual equipment sold soon I hope to purchase one some time this summer.


I think the Kornit system in the Breeze is about as user friendly as it gets. I have bigger machines but it is an awesome entry level machine and you don't have to pretreat off the machine. In the DTG custom t-shirt world thats huge. How many pieces per month do you think you would print? THe Kornit Equipment is so versatile in the pre-press area and that is critical. I'd be real cautious buying used unless it's factory certified. THere are a lot of horror stories in the forum.


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## VBGrafx

*Re: What DTG machine do you own and how did you make your decision on it *

Ya, what's the price tag on the breeze? Is it around $60K?


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## ROYAL SAVAGE

*Re: What DTG machine do you own and how did you make your decision on it *



VBGrafx said:


> Ya, what's the price tag on the breeze? Is it around $60K?


 its around $55K and has the lowest ink costs. The problem now is that the machines with the higher ink cost combined with significantly higher apparel prices will price some people out of the custom t-shirt market. I'm hard pressed to justify droping $4-6.00 worth of ink on a shirt before adding any of your fixed expenses.
Lets say you Have a $3.00 shirt with $5.00 worth of ink on one side - thats $8.00 , what are your fixed costs associated with the order - machine payment, rent- salary- utilities etc. per shirt. You need to know your daily fixed costs ( 20 work days per month) and break those costs down to hourly operating costs. 

If your hourly operating cost are say $30.00 per hour and you can only pretreat and print 10 finished shirts per hour your fixed costs per shirt are $3.00 . Your price equation now becomes $3.00 (shirt) + $5.00 (ink) + $3.00 ( fixed costs) or $11.00 per shirt for a one sided print. How much can you sell a one sided shirt for. Based on this hypothetical calculation a two sided shirt with full size print would cost YOU not your customer $19.00 to produce. Fixed costs per unit can only decline as yield per hour increases . In DTG this number has a flat line. Smaller images are mor profitable. You need real accurate ink costs and yield per unit. You can only get these numbers based on printing experience. It gets tricky - oh yeah don't forget pretreat! This is only a hypothetical example - doing it based on what you know about your shop.


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## TahoeTomahawk

*Re: What DTG machine do you own and how did you make your decision on it *

We wouldn't be able to sell any of the prints coming off the Breeze, we usually throw those out as rejects. I wouldn't even buy one for 10k.


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## VBGrafx

*Re: What DTG machine do you own and how did you make your decision on it *

WOW, I take it that in your oppenion, the Breeze ain't worth the money...?

So, Adam, what are you printing on? and why? Thanks....


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## ROYAL SAVAGE

*Re: What DTG machine do you own and how did you make your decision on it *



TahoeTomahawk said:


> We wouldn't be able to sell any of the prints coming off the Breeze, we usually throw those out as rejects. I wouldn't even buy one for 10k.


Fabulous contribution to the forum. Outstanding analysis of the Breeze.

What is the point of bashing people's gear. Let's start over -what contructive point can _you_ make that will enhance the forum users experience?


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## TahoeTomahawk

*Re: What DTG machine do you own and how did you make your decision on it *



ROYAL SAVAGE said:


> Fabulous contribution to the forum. Outstanding analysis of the Breeze.
> 
> What is the point of bashing people's gear. Let's start over -what contructive point can _you_ make that will enhance the forum users experience?


It's a piece of equipment, I'm not bashing anyone personally.
I've given my opinion on the Breeze several times, probably in this thread, but I will re-post.

In my opinion, the Kornits are fast not only because of the print speed, but the built in pre-treat process. The built in pre-treat is actually why I feel like the prints are not good. Because the pre-treat is only wiped down and not heat set, filibration is visible on every single sample that I've seen. I first notice this when seeing it in action in Long Beach. The white comes out grayish in areas with filibration, the prints overall are very grainy. Those type of prints we throw out as rejects, customers expect crisp, vibrant, detailed prints from DTG machines.

A work around might be to take it out and heat-press the pre-treat.. but then why pay 60k for a printer?


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## TahoeTomahawk

*Re: What DTG machine do you own and how did you make your decision on it *



VBGrafx said:


> WOW, I take it that in your oppenion, the Breeze ain't worth the money...?
> 
> So, Adam, what are you printing on? and why? Thanks....


I don't think so.. I mean paying 60k for prints that are 'good enough' - 'sometimes'. That's not the type of business we are running here. It may work well for events or shirts that are intentionally distressed .. we just don't have that type of clientele.

We print with the MOD1 and still have a few older Kiosks. IMO, they both produce much crisper, vibrant prints than the samples I saw come off the Breeze from the show.

The Breeze is fast though.. if that makes a difference.


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## ROYAL SAVAGE

*Re: What DTG machine do you own and how did you make your decision on it *



TahoeTomahawk said:


> It's a piece of equipment, I'm not bashing anyone personally.
> I've given my opinion on the Breeze several times, probably in this thread, but I will re-post.
> 
> In my opinion, the Kornits are fast not only because of the print speed, but the built in pre-treat process. The built in pre-treat is actually why I feel like the prints are not good. Because the pre-treat is only wiped down and not heat set, filibration is visible on every single sample that I've seen. I first notice this when seeing it in action in Long Beach. The white comes out grayish in areas with filibration, the prints overall are very grainy. Those type of prints we throw out as rejects, customers expect crisp, vibrant, detailed prints from DTG machines.
> 
> A work around might be to take it out and heat-press the pre-treat.. but then why pay 60k for a printer?


I go to many shows per year. The Kornit gear is the only gear that runs from the moment the show opens until it closes. I've seen that machinery run several times under the worst conditions. It performs beautifully. The best part is soft hand instead of the hard heat pressed transfer feel.


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## TahoeTomahawk

*Re: What DTG machine do you own and how did you make your decision on it *



ROYAL SAVAGE said:


> The best part is soft hand instead of the hard heat pressed transfer feel.


And the worst part is the final print.


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## VBGrafx

*Re: What DTG machine do you own and how did you make your decision on it *

Heck no, don't hold back. Tell it! If you have experience with a machine, shoot me straight. ITS MY FLIPPIN 60K!

How long have you been using the MOD1?

What are the negatives?

We need a clean printing machine. We are a custom graphic design shop. So I am not going to spend a lot of time on artwork only to turn around an have a 60K machine muddy the print. 

I also need to justify the cost vs. screen printing.... There are pros and cons for both...


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## BestBordados+

*Re: What DTG machine do you own and how did you make your decision on it *



TahoeTomahawk said:


> It's a piece of equipment, I'm not bashing anyone personally.
> I've given my opinion on the Breeze several times, probably in this thread, but I will re-post.
> 
> In my opinion, the Kornits are fast not only because of the print speed, but the built in pre-treat process. The built in pre-treat is actually why I feel like the prints are not good. Because the pre-treat is only wiped down and not heat set, filibration is visible on every single sample that I've seen. I first notice this when seeing it in action in Long Beach. The white comes out grayish in areas with filibration, the prints overall are very grainy. Those type of prints we throw out as rejects, customers expect crisp, vibrant, detailed prints from DTG machines.
> 
> A work around might be to take it out and heat-press the pre-treat.. but then why pay 60k for a printer?


Hello.. so, what is in your opinion that DTG machine that gives Crisp, vibrant, detailed prints???
Thanks


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## ROYAL SAVAGE

*Re: What DTG machine do you own and how did you make your decision on it *



TahoeTomahawk said:


> And the worst part is the final print.


 Do you own Kornit Equipment? Have you owned it?


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## TahoeTomahawk

*Re: What DTG machine do you own and how did you make your decision on it *



BestBordados+ said:


> Hello.. so, what is in your opinion that DTG machine that gives Crisp, vibrant, detailed prints???
> Thanks


Laying the fibers flat. No filibration.


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## TahoeTomahawk

*Re: What DTG machine do you own and how did you make your decision on it *



ROYAL SAVAGE said:


> Do you own Kornit Equipment? Have you owned it?


No .. I'm pretty sure I just wrote a few posts back that my opinion is based on watching them at the Long Beach show 2 years in a row. I was not impressed by the final prints because of what I described.


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## TahoeTomahawk

*Re: What DTG machine do you own and how did you make your decision on it *

Here is a simple test anyone with an Epson based DTG can do to simulate the quality that I saw coming off of the Kornits.

Pre-treat a shirt and let it air dry overnight.
Do not press the shirt, and print your image on it.

Now pre-treat, heat press a second shirt and print as normal. Compare the 2. One will be crisp and detailed and the other will be grainy because of filibration.


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## ROYAL SAVAGE

*Re: What DTG machine do you own and how did you make your decision on it *



TahoeTomahawk said:


> Here is a simple test anyone with an Epson based DTG can do to simulate the quality that I saw coming off of the Kornits.
> 
> Pre-treat a shirt and let it air dry overnight.
> Do not press the shirt, and print your image on it.
> 
> Now pre-treat, heat press a second shirt and print as normal. Compare the 2. One will be crisp and detailed and the other will be grainy because of filibration.


We run multiple Kornits and have for years. We do not experience the problems you refer to. We print _thousands_ of pieces per week. Most of our product is licensed goods. These clients ended up as clients because they feel that the hand of heat pressed shirts has an awkward stigma with the consumer. Over 90% of what we print is on black or dark shirts including sweatshirts.

What I do have are extremely skilled operators and an art room full of talent that has been doing screen print seps for over 20 years. Heat pressing shirts after pretreating to tamp down fibers is not a strategy that would work for us. So our solution is that we print with Kornit machines to save time and labor.

There is no reasonable argument that can be made by anyone of sound mind that denies the fact that Kornit machines are the only industrial grade machines on the market. You simpley cannot compare a MODified desktop office printer to KORnit printers. It's unreasonable if you talk about durability and speed of production. I own machines that have hundreds of thousands of prints on them and we have never changed a print head. There are no machines that can outprint the full size production machines.

I dont dis anybody's product. If it's not for me it's not for me. I don't have to bad mouth anything because I found what suits my needs. Many people that hate Mercedes , or BMW's or Cadillacs don't have the money to buy one. I can tell you this - Kornit has the most willing techs I've encountered and I've owned MR, TUFF, Antec, Happy , Barudan , Tajima and on and on. I've been buying industrial printing equipment for well over 20 years.

They make a good product. It may not suit everyones budget or mindset. It is a serious investment for those who are serious about their business. I'm very serious about my business. Good luck with your decision on buying.


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## TahoeTomahawk

*Re: What DTG machine do you own and how did you make your decision on it *

Kevin,
maybe you should help the Kornit folks out so they stop producing grainy prints at the shows.

One thing I am happy about is all the customers who come to us looking for a better quality print because their current printer uses a Kornit.


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## Dono

*Re: What DTG machine do you own and how did you make your decision on it *

Half-time Summary:


Kornit Breeze $55,000
- Lowest ink costs
- Prints faster w/ integrated pre-treat
- Industrial grade machine: Tops in durability & speed
- Filibration: grayish whites, grainy, not as vibrant (possibly company representatives are simply not trained to use the equipment properly at tradeshows and/or Adam is crazy )


Belquette MOD1 $15,000 (I think)
- Decent ink costs
- Slower prints due to separate pre-treat and garment pressing steps
- No filibration: crisper, more vibrant results



> I own machines that have hundreds of thousands of prints on them and we have never changed a print head. There are no machines that can outprint the full size production machines.


Okay, but to be fair, how many Epson printer heads can we buy for $40,000? Speedwise, is one Breeze faster than purchasing 3 MOD1's (since you can afford to do so)?



> I dont dis anybody's product. If it's not for me it's not for me. I don't have to bad mouth anything because I found what suits my needs. Many people that hate Mercedes , or BMW's or Cadillacs don't have the money to buy one.


This appears to imply that if you hate it, you don't have the money to buy it. So you're not dis'ing the machine, just anyone that decides it's not for them.



> They make a good product. It may not suit everyones budget or mindset. It is a serious investment for those who are serious about their business. I'm very serious about my business. Good luck with your decision on buying.


This sort of suggests that non-owners aren't as serious about their business.

I think many people believe that a slower production process tends to result in a better finished product. Short of seeing both machines in action, most of us may never know. 


All in all, great info, thank you both.


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## ROYAL SAVAGE

*Re: What DTG machine do you own and how did you make your decision on it *



TahoeTomahawk said:


> Kevin,
> maybe you should help the Kornit folks out so they stop producing grainy prints at the shows.
> 
> One thing I am happy about is all the customers who come to us looking for a better quality print because their current printer uses a Kornit.


I have six shirts in my office from a customer who got bad product from one of the biggest dtg printers in the country who uses the same gear you have. People who are bad printers are bad printers. Thats generally just the way it is. Bad printers are not brand specific.


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## TahoeTomahawk

*Re: What DTG machine do you own and how did you make your decision on it *



ROYAL SAVAGE said:


> I have six shirts in my office from a customer who got bad product from one of the biggest dtg printers in the country who uses the same gear you have. People who are bad printers are bad printers. Thats generally just the way it is. Bad printers are not brand specific.


Totally agree with you, except I didn't generalize my opinion. I gave you very specific reasons why in my opinion the final prints aren't that good. Grainy prints due to filibration. You keep replying, but won't address the specifics.


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## ROYAL SAVAGE

*Re: What DTG machine do you own and how did you make your decision on it *



TahoeTomahawk said:


> Totally agree with you, except I didn't generalize my opinion. I gave you very specific reasons why in my opinion the final prints aren't that good. Grainy prints due to filibration. You keep replying, but won't address the specifics.


I've been waiting for you. 

In order to dispell the myth that the white base is grainy and grey I have attached a picture of our white base. Grainy and grey? - let the forum users decide for themselves. I can send more if you like. woould you like to see the finished print ? Would you like other images. We have a ton of pics. Let me know.


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## FatKat Printz

*Re: What DTG machine do you own and how did you make your decision on it *



ROYAL SAVAGE said:


> Would you like other images. We have a ton of pics. Let me know.


Please send another one.. I had to wipe my screen because I wanted to make sure what I was seeing. I don't wanna judge just yet but the wetness sure isn't impressive no matter how much time it saves. Plus, there is unevenness in the letters unless that was the flash. 

I did see the Breeze at ISS in Orlando this year, my opinion has nothing to do with price whether or not, I can afford it or not. It just too much for one machine. Being a control freak, I would rather control my pretreat /curing process. True it takes more time but I can continue printing if my pretreat gun or machine goes down. Its not dependent on my machine. If this takes more time so be it, at least I know if there was a problem with a shirt where the problem could be. 


Here is my white coverage with a Kiosk 2...


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## ROYAL SAVAGE

*Re: What DTG machine do you own and how did you make your decision on it *



FatKat Printz said:


> Please send another one.. I had to wipe my screen because I wanted to make sure what I was seeing. I don't wanna judge just yet but the wetness sure isn't impressive no matter how much time it saves. Plus, there is unevenness in the letters unless that was the flash.
> 
> I did see the Breeze at ISS in Orlando this year, my opinion has nothing to do with price whether or not, I can afford it or not. It just too much for one machine. Being a control freak, I would rather control my pretreat /curing process. True it takes more time but I can continue printing if my pretreat gun or machine goes down. Its not dependent on my machine. If this takes more time so be it, at least I know if there was a problem with a shirt where the problem could be.
> 
> 
> Here is my white coverage with a Kiosk 2...


 LOL. If you can't see 100% white coverage in that pic You'll never see it! How much does your ink cost? I don't know that equipment you have . How many of those shirts can you do per hour?


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## TahoeTomahawk

*Re: What DTG machine do you own and how did you make your decision on it *



ROYAL SAVAGE said:


> I've been waiting for you.
> 
> In order to dispell the myth that the white base is grainy and grey I have attached a picture of our white base. Grainy and grey? - let the forum users decide for themselves. I can send more if you like. woould you like to see the finished print ? Would you like other images. We have a ton of pics. Let me know.


Are you serious? Myth?? I gave my opinion based on what I saw at the show. Like I said, if you are doing something different perhaps you should train the Kornit folks. 

We were discussing the Breeze with the built in pre-treat station that simply wipes the fibers down, they don't stick like a heat-pressed pre-treated shirt does.

Yea, users can decide for themselves at the show by going around to different DTG vendors and watching them print in real time. Inspect the shirts close-up.


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## BestBordados+

*Re: What DTG machine do you own and how did you make your decision on it *

Guys... the thread is interesting.. but i think there could be in a new thread... if you go to the first post... you can see what is the pint here and how people should post their opinion. following the question / answer form.
Thanks


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## FatKat Printz

*Re: What DTG machine do you own and how did you make your decision on it *



ROYAL SAVAGE said:


> LOL. If you can't see 100% white coverage in that pic You'll never see it!


Really??? I think I should be able to see it. 



ROYAL SAVAGE said:


> How much does your ink cost? I don't know that equipment you have . How many of those shirts can you do per hour?


Woah!! I am not here to argue about production and ink costs. I simply agree with your statement _"People who are bad printers are bad printers. Thats generally just the way it is. Bad printers are not brand specific"
_

But I can't see the white coverage because either the flash on the camera or what. I mean even coverage is even coverage and I should see it. I clearly see the wetness.. 

I have DTG K2 with Belquette Inks (same as the Mod-1). I will admit that my printer is slow, no denying it. But here is the thing.. my printer was plagued with starvation issues, air getting into the ink system, constant maintenance, poor prints, refunds to customers etc etc. The engineers (not the distributors or sales people) the engineers at Belquette made a conversion kit, Adam started the trend and its a work in progress. 

So now all I pay for is ink and pretreat.. this kit changed my printer with a simply change of the ink delivery system not just the white the entire system. Since my conversion over a year ago I have changed *1 capping station* on my first K2 and in July my second K2 will be on the same path after its conversion a year ago. This kit made my white coverage how you see it the picture.. How Adams looks in his thread..http://www.t-shirtforums.com/dtg-brand/t122078.html. Before this change there is no way we could do this on a K2. 

So this kit isn't gonna change the bad printers, because usually bad printers (don't listen, tinker, think they know it all and don't ask questions) but for those that want to be the opposite of a bad printer this kit is for them. 

Being a control freak and not having to worry about my printer being constantly down, doing test prints everyday and taking 2 hours sometimes to get started in the morning now , I focus on being a better printer (pretreat, curing, new methods, etc etc)

I don't agree that because we have a slower printer that it produces better results. I am not saying my machine is any better than yours. But thinking we are "haters" cause we don't like it because we can't afford one.. sorry you are wrong. 

If the Kornit, was cheaper to maintain -I still wouldn't buy it. If the Kornit was in the same price range as many other printers-I still wouldn't buy it. If Kornit gave it to me I would sell it and have a nice vacation.. hell I might give it away. 

My opinion..


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## loloxa

So do we know how much the ink for the breeze is?


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## ROYAL SAVAGE

loloxa said:


> So do we know how much the ink for the breeze is?


 $180.00 per liter is the current cost.


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## loloxa

ROYAL SAVAGE said:


> $180.00 per liter is the current cost.


So they finally stuck to the Kornit general ink price? I was under the impression or better put, I was told at the show that the price was going to be higher for the breeze. I really fell in love with the small footprint of the machine but quality perceptions aside, I have to say that a machine that requires a 3 phase 8 Kv dryer worth 12.000$ to properly cure a t-shirt was a bit beyond my small shop idea of business. Although if they finally got it running printing white and color in one pass that's a nice advantage to have.

I agree that some prints are coarser in the kornit, but calling kornit prints rejects is like calling epson printers pieces of sCrap, it is just BS,and I have the samples too.


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## TahoeTomahawk

loloxa said:


> I agree that some prints are coarser in the kornit, but calling kornit prints rejects is like calling epson printers pieces of sCrap, it is just BS,and I have the samples too.


Wow you guys are really sensitive about a bunch of metal and plastic.

Go back and read what I said.. it has everything to do with the pre-treat process on the Kornit not being able to press the fibers down and -keep- them down, which is why I feel like the prints are grainy. Filibration. It's the simple truth.. although some people don't seem to care. Our customers do, thats why we reject them.

The samples I personally saw were what we throw out as rejects. They are too grainy. Not clear, not crisp, not detailed enough because of filibration.

Do you think I can use your argument on my customer who complains about the same thing? Should I tell them they are BS?


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## ROYAL SAVAGE

loloxa said:


> So they finally stuck to the Kornit general ink price? I was under the impression or better put, I was told at the show that the price was going to be higher for the breeze. I really fell in love with the small footprint of the machine but quality perceptions aside, I have to say that a machine that requires a 3 phase 8 Kv dryer worth 12.000$ to properly cure a t-shirt was a bit beyond my small shop idea of business. Although if they finally got it running printing white and color in one pass that's a nice advantage to have.
> 
> I agree that some prints are coarser in the kornit, but calling kornit prints rejects is like calling epson printers pieces of sCrap, it is just BS,and I have the samples too.


 
THe issue raised regarding courseness is not a valid argument. If you lay heavier whites the hand is heavier if you lay less white the hand is softer. Some heat press tees are like cardboard. The bottom line is if you want plug and play machines you can buy them. If you want machines that give you total technical control over the printing process you are better off with a Kornit.


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## TahoeTomahawk

ROYAL SAVAGE said:


> THe issue raised regarding courseness is not a valid argument.


In your opinion, but to other people it is.


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## allamerican-aeoon

I am pretty sure few Kornit owners submit Battle Royale Contest. We all will see the quality from Rodney's judgement post. Last day 2 hours left. you still can print few. Need todays stamp.


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## ROYAL SAVAGE

allamerican said:


> I am pretty sure few Kornit owners submit Battle Royale Contest. We all will see the quality from Rodney's judgement post. Last day 2 hours left. you still can print few. Need todays stamp.


 You're right! We are too busy doing industrial DTG printing on heavy volume orders - come on laugh a little you were wide open for that.


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## loloxa

TahoeTomahawk said:


> Wow you guys are really sensitive about a bunch of metal and plastic.
> 
> Go back and read what I said.. it has everything to do with the pre-treat process on the Kornit not being able to press the fibers down and -keep- them down, which is why I feel like the prints are grainy. Filibration. It's the simple truth.. although some people don't seem to care. Our customers do, thats why we reject them.
> 
> The samples I personally saw were what we throw out as rejects. They are too grainy. Not clear, not crisp, not detailed enough because of filibration.
> 
> Do you think I can use your argument on my customer who complains about the same thing? Should I tell them they are BS?


if one fiber a reject makes I agree with you, but I do not agree on that first part do, fibers can happen.

see my post for sample pictures,and please enlighten us whith some embeded images so we can see why would you consider a certain print a reject.

I could not care less about kornit, the reason I did not buy their product was on a human basis, the guys did not inspire me any confidence since they seem to deal best with non technical buyers, so I spent the same money elsewhere. 



ROYAL SAVAGE said:


> THe issue raised regarding courseness is not a valid argument. If you lay heavier whites the hand is heavier if you lay less white the hand is softer. Some heat press tees are like cardboard. The bottom line is if you want plug and play machines you can buy them. If you want machines that give you total technical control over the printing process you are better off with a Kornit.


 I know you are a kornit evangelist, but are you serious? plug and play vs total technical control? have you used any other machine apart form your kornits? software wise there is nothing the epson printers cannot do that yours can, NOTHING! and from a hardware perspective the price tag on this things gives you an idea of how much will it cost to fix them when the time comes, and is not that much more versatile ( name one factor over any other printer that gives you better control on the kornit?). And my pressed prints are silk smooth, send me a pm and I'll send you a sample of that basketball kornit print done with mine.

out of here.


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## ROYAL SAVAGE

loloxa said:


> if one fiber a reject makes I agree with you, but I do not agree on that first part do, fibers can happen.
> 
> see my post for sample pictures,and please enlighten us whith some embeded images so we can see why would you consider a certain print a reject.
> 
> I could not care less about kornit, the reason I did not buy their product was on a human basis, the guys did not inspire me any confidence since they seem to deal best with non technical buyers, so I spent the same money elsewhere.
> 
> 
> 
> I know you are a kornit evangelist, but are you serious? plug and play vs total technical control? have you used any other machine apart form your kornits? software wise there is nothing the epson printers cannot do that yours can, NOTHING! and from a hardware perspective the price tag on this things gives you an idea of how much will it cost to fix them when the time comes, and is not that much more versatile ( name one factor over any other printer that gives you better control on the kornit?). And my pressed prints are silk smooth, send me a pm and I'll send you a sample of that basketball kornit print done with mine.
> 
> out of here.


 I have owned other gear and thats why I own what I own. Our previous gear could not take the beating we give equipment 60 - 80 hours per week and the print quality was not there. I've been doing this since 2006. I'm no evangelist - I'm a guy with 23 years experience doing high volume production on t-shirts. I need certain qualities in my machinery. What's interesting is that our clients do not want smooth heat pressed goods. They want goods that look and feel more like screen printing because that is what their consumers want. The glass finish of heat pressed goods wood be rejected out of hand immediately as tranfers in the eyes of the consumer. That type of printing is fine. There is nothing wrong with it if it fits your market. That's not our market.

How many of you guys are screen printers by trade? How many own multiple automatics? Does anyone own any 15 head embroidery machines? I'm asking for the simple reason to see who is in the high production biz on tees. It's germain to this conversation.


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## allamerican-aeoon

You don't want to debate with TT and LOLOXA. Tuff cookies. 
They have their own religion. haha
Peace!! beers are on me. I really wish to see your print through Contest. What should I do to make this happen? My UPS next day air account number?


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## ROYAL SAVAGE

allamerican said:


> You don't want to debate with TT and LOLOXA. Tuff cookies.
> They have their own religion. haha
> Peace!! beers are on me. I really wish to see your print through Contest. What should I do to make this happen? My UPS next day air account number?


 nice one my man


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## loloxa

My dipers were changed next to a manual 4 color press that we still operate. plastic feel you say? have you heard of parchment paper? Let me tell you on thing there is nothing wrong with plastisol transfers , they last longer and are lighter than some kornit demos I've seen. And is next to screenprinting as the founding elements of this industry. ( How I miss pressing Iron Maiden shirts)

And relevant to this conversation? this thread started with a breeze pitch, not exactly the highest output of the bunch wouldn't you say? is a machine that was badly though out to compete with machines 40.000 $ cheaper. C'mon the next model up is just 15.000 $ more expensive.


----------



## ROYAL SAVAGE

loloxa said:


> My dipers were changed next to a manual 4 color press that we still operate. plastic feel you say? have you heard of parchment paper? Let me tell you on thing there is nothing wrong with plastisol transfers , they last longer and are lighter than some kornit demos I've seen. And is next to screenprinting as the founding elements of this industry. ( How I miss pressing Iron Maiden shirts)
> 
> And relevant to this conversation? this thread started with a breeze pitch, not exactly the highest output of the bunch wouldn't you say? is a machine that was badly though out to compete with machines 40.000 $ cheaper. C'mon the next model up is just 15.000 $ more expensive.


Actually the thread isn't about the breeze anymore. You need to slow down when you type . I can't follow what your saying


----------



## allamerican-aeoon

I LOVE TSF especially when I am not in the middle. Cheers!!!!


----------



## FatKat Printz

allamerican said:


> They have their own religion. haha


Oh Peter.. 

I really wouldn't associate - 2 of our 5 physical senses being part of a religion.. that being sight and touch that's just reality.


----------



## loloxa

ROYAL SAVAGE said:


> Actually the thread isn't about the breeze anymore. You need to slow down when you type . I can't follow what your saying


Aha, so what is it about now? highest output? 15 head embroideries? or UPS overnight accounts?

don't worry, which part do you not understand? I C A N S P E L L I T F O R Y O U I F N E E D E D.

And please, it would do good to address the points which you pride KORNIT of being unique in, for the sanity of the conversation.


----------



## allamerican-aeoon

FatKat Printz said:


> Oh Peter..
> 
> I really wouldn't associate - 2 of our 5 physical senses being part of a religion.. that being sight and touch that's just reality.


Now we have all here. FatKat is here too. OMG!! in good way, this thread will be great one. 
Whoelse we are missing here. German13? DAguide?


----------



## loloxa

allamerican said:


> Now we have all here. FatKat is here too. OMG!! in good way, this thread will be great one.
> Whoelse we are missing here. German13? DAguide?


I'm not missing you.

you really were calling for it.


----------



## allamerican-aeoon

loloxa said:


> Aha, so what is it about now? highest output? 15 head embroideries? or UPS overnight accounts?
> 
> don't worry, which part do you not understand? I C A N S P E L L I T F O R Y O U I F N E E D E D.
> 
> And please, it would do good to address the points which you pride KORNIT of being unique in, for the sanity of the conversation.


RS,
I warned you, didn't I?


----------



## allamerican-aeoon

loloxa said:


> I'm not missing you.
> 
> you really were caling for it.


I did not say anything to upset you and all. Please. I did put in humor way. Not have any opinions on this thread. I will stay out. Ten-Four over and out.
Chicken out. As I said I do not want to stay otherside of you.


----------



## FatKat Printz

allamerican said:


> Now we have all here. FatKat is here too. OMG!! in good way, this thread will be great one.
> Whoelse we are missing here. German13? DAguide?


then it would be Brother, Kornit and Epson.. oh vay!!

I would like to hear from some other Kornit owners.


----------



## loloxa

allamerican said:


> I did not say anything to upset you and all. Please. I did put in humor way. Not have any opinions on this thread. I will stay out. Ten-Four over and out.


Don't worry peter, not upset in any way, it is all fun and no work now in here, so contribute with your commentator puns, you are slowly becoming the "voice OFF" of TSF. ( in a strange way)

regards and out too ( the point was long lost)


----------



## ROYAL SAVAGE

loloxa said:


> Aha, so what is it about now? highest output? 15 head embroideries? or UPS overnight accounts?
> 
> don't worry, which part do you not understand? I C A N S P E L L I T F O R Y O U I F N E E D E D.
> 
> And please, it would do good to address the points which you pride KORNIT of being unique in, for the sanity of the conversation.


YOU ASKED And please, it would do good to address the points which you pride KORNIT of being unique in, for the sanity of the conversation

Here you go - The contracts in our filing cabinet for major licensed product companies and entertaiment events we deal with that would not have looked twice at us if it had not been for our capabilities that the Kornit afforded us.


----------



## VBGrafx

Well, I'm here... not posting. I'm too busy crackin up at ya'll going back and forth. 

So, tell me how you really feel... and please don't hold back!

I wish that some of you would put your names on your profil so I can get a good visual of you snapping your fingers and wipping your head back and forth! 

So far I think this has been a great discussion.... please keep it up!


----------



## allamerican-aeoon

Silence before the storm. Wait for any moves.


----------



## 102557

I smell ink fumes and see fuzzy prints... Oh thats not an epson I could be just dizzy from looking at the 1200 dollar print head costs of the non epsons..


----------



## allamerican-aeoon

german13 said:


> I smell ink fumes and see fuzzy prints... Oh thats not an epson I could be just dizzy from looking at the 1200 dollar print head costs of the non epsons..


OMG!! 
You too Brutus? (Julius Ceasar).
call security!!!!! haha


----------



## Justin Walker

*Re: What DTG machine do you own and how did you make your decision on it *



ROYAL SAVAGE said:


> There is no reasonable argument that can be made by anyone of sound mind that denies the fact that Kornit machines are the only industrial grade machines on the market.


There sure are a lot of unreasonable former owners, then!


----------



## Justin Walker

german13 said:


> I smell ink fumes and see fuzzy prints... Oh thats not an epson I could be just dizzy from looking at the 1200 dollar print head costs of the non epsons..


$1,200? You WISH the Kornit print heads were that cheap..... lol Three times more, easy.


----------



## 102557

Justin Walker said:


> $1,200? You WISH the Kornit print heads were that cheap..... lol Three times more, easy.


 maybe that was the brother heads i was thinking of?


----------



## FatKat Printz

So learning more about the Kornit because no one else has gotten on to share their experiences. If I was a customer who wanted to research more about a Kornit Breeze (*entry level printer*) and looked into the information (doing research) some interesting facts about this machine makes it more unappealing... 

Richmond Graphic - Product - Kornit 921 Breeze

Supports: Windows XP (can someone confirm that you can run Vista or Win7)
Weight : 2,900 pounds (woozer)
Resolution: 600x600, 600x1200 dpi. (hmmm.. interesting)

printheads on sale here $2,250..Spectra Nova Printhead JA 256/80 AAA - $2,250.00 : Printheads online - Spectra 128, Nova, Skywalker,, Konica Minolta KM512, Xaar 126/128


----------



## 102557

I would love to see some pictures of the kornit drive system/guts/internals etc..

I would like to see what the industrial grade qauility is! Is the weight of the machine? the frame? the motors materials used? spectra heads? lets see what industrial grade is!!!

post some credentials that support the indusrial grade!! so we can see if it indeed is!!


----------



## ROYAL SAVAGE

german13 said:


> I would love to see some pictures of the kornit drive system/guts/internals etc..
> 
> I would like to see what the industrial grade qauility is! Is the weight of the machine? the frame? the motors materials used? spectra heads? lets see what industrial grade is!!!
> 
> post some credentials that support the indusrial grade!! so we can see if it indeed is!!


 I use KOrnit INdustrial grade printers. I do not own a breeze. This is terrific talking to you guys. I just got a call from my factory that production for the day was done. 6:30 am - 8:30 pm. We printed nearly 1000 shirts,half of the job. THat number is strictly DTG. That is industrial production. Make all the snide remarks you like but I bill alot of money using the brand you all love to hate. You know those are big numbers, industrial if you will. You have to admit we do have fun in this forum.


----------



## allamerican-aeoon

So 14 hours of work = 1000 shirts/half= 500shirts = 36 shirts/hour.= every 100 second/1 shirts on dark? 
What is your everage image area? 
I watched countless time of Kornit working at show but I do not remember see that fast unless image is fairly small. Maybe Kornit had a upgrade?
Are here any Kornit users who will/can put nose in?


----------



## allamerican-aeoon

"kenscott" is surrendering his Kornit on TSF Classified. I read many his posts. His posts could give us some idea on Kornit. I invite him to read our exciting thread. Let see whoelse will join our party. Many serious loud voices are already here to firing.


----------



## loloxa

ROYAL SAVAGE said:


> YOU ASKED And please, it would do good to address the points which you pride KORNIT of being unique in, for the sanity of the conversation
> 
> Here you go - The contracts in our filing cabinet for major licensed product companies and entertainment events we deal with that would not have looked twice at us if it had not been for our capabilities that the Kornit afforded us.


That's not KORNIT, we should change the name of the thread to "I have a good sales rep." and give credit where ... you know how the saying goes.

Because you also do Screenprinting you might be used to work for marginal benefits per garment, and that could be why your clients are happy with your quotes( the only thing we know for sure, is that the inks are cheaper) but I don't market my DTG as "screenprinting with more colors"

For high volumes, I believe not even the kornit can compete with that, price or quality wise, even a 6 or 8 color process can be done a lot cheaper in an auto at the expense of the added printing time for a 1000 T's. Even the added cost of the extra time, another operator, color separations and screen setups becomes cost effective. And the ROI is the same or less, since you can get a nice auto with a dryer for less than 60K.

If your Humongous clients do less than 100 units per design and you have 10 or more designs, that is a good scenario for your setup, but following along many of the production environments of people in this forum.

Anyway everyone enjoy their machines, because threads like this show how vigorous this sector has become. I'm out to print.


----------



## TahoeTomahawk

ROYAL SAVAGE said:


> I do not own a breeze


Then what was your point asking me if I even owned a Breeze for having an opinion about it? I guess it's ok to say good things about the printer if you don't own one, but not bad things.

If an epson based printer had a built in pre-treat sprayer similar to the Kornits, I guess that would be the brand I love to hate also.


----------



## ROYAL SAVAGE

loloxa said:


> That's not KORNIT, we should change the name of the thread to "I have a good sales rep." and give credit where ... you know how the saying goes.
> 
> Because you also do Screenprinting you might be used to work for marginal benefits per garment, and that could be why your clients are happy with your quotes( the only thing we know for sure, is that the inks are cheaper) but I don't market my DTG as "screenprinting with more colors"
> 
> For high volumes, I believe not even the kornit can compete with that, price or quality wise, even a 6 or 8 color process can be done a lot cheaper in an auto at the expense of the added printing time for a 1000 T's. Even the added cost of the extra time, another operator, color separations and screen setups becomes cost effective. And the ROI is the same or less, since you can get a nice auto with a dryer for less than 60K.
> 
> If your Humongous clients do less than 100 units per design and you have 10 or more designs, that is a good scenario for your setup, but following along many of the production environments of people in this forum.
> 
> Anyway everyone enjoy their machines, because threads like this show how vigorous this sector has become. I'm out to print.


 
If you specialize in creating continuos tone art, screen printing will not work. Our larger customers only print CMYK continuos tone images with us so we don't compete between screen printing and DTG. Average runs on bigger stuff are 300 -500 units. Selling the continous tone capability of DTG is an important with certain customers. We don't use it for basics.


----------



## allamerican-aeoon

I guess it's my turn. Kornit is leader of mass production is no doubt. I do have lots of respect for the company. First one who came out to aim big production. Now there are few mfg's are following their steps. I believe we shall see least couple this year. Brother was second attempt and we do not know how successful they are. DAguide maybe.
Kornit vs Epson
Price: $150,000-55,000 Plus Dryer vs. $20,000-12,000 8 times- 5 times.
Speed: Kornit Should 5-8 times faster than Epson base. 
Output Quality: Individual's opinion. This is big argument point but it will be endless. Even between Epson's are big deal.
Maintanance: Parts cost? Ink cost? Labor? Longevity? 
Reliablity: In case Printer(s) malfuction: Will 5-8 machines stop at once?
What % of printers (people) can come up with that kind of price tag? 5%>? Let's make vote.
Depreciation value: As a car, used market tells how good car is. What is resell value? % wise. If we see many are on the market = not a good news.
Any voice to hear?


----------



## ROYAL SAVAGE

allamerican said:


> I guess it's my turn. Kornit is leader of mass production is no doubt. I do have lots of respect for the company. First one who came out to aim big production. Now there are few mfg's are following their steps. I believe we shall see least couple this year. Brother was second attempt and we do not know how successful they are. DAguide maybe.
> Kornit vs Epson
> Price: $150,000-55,000 Plus Dryer vs. $20,000-15,000 8 times- 5 times.
> Speed: Kornit Should 5-8 times faster than Epson base.
> Output Quality: Individual's opinion. This is big argument point but it will be endless. Even between Epson's are big deal.
> Maintanance: Parts cost? Ink cost? Labor? Longevity?
> Reliablity: In case Printer(s) malfuction: Will 5-8 machines stop at once?
> What % of printers (people) can come up with that kind of price tag? 5%>? Let's make vote.
> Depreciation value: As a car, used market tells how good car is. What is resell value? % wise. If we see many are on the market = not a good news.
> Any voice to hear?


How many people do you need to run 8 machines? I like machines that can crank out a lot of product and combined with a return feed dryer its a no brainer for labor. Lets say that you have an average of 25 prints per hour over a 2080 work year - thats 52,000 prints per employee directly involved in printing. Thats one guy - one. As a screen printer I believe that DTG is more profitable in many ways than screen. The problem is you need too many machines to do the same piece volume.


----------



## allamerican-aeoon

loloxa said:


> I'm out to print.


I am  this much happy when I see someone works hard and have many works to do. 5am to start? I hope you had nice big coffee cup in your hand. Beers are on me, always. Cheers!!


----------



## allamerican-aeoon

ROYAL SAVAGE said:


> How many people do you need to run 8 machines? I like machines that can crank out a lot of product and combined with a return feed dryer its a no brainer for labor. Lets say that you have an average of 25 prints per hour over a 2080 work year - thats 52,000 prints per employee directly involved in printing. Thats one guy - one. As a screen printer I believe that DTG is more profitable in many ways than screen. The problem is you need too many machines to do the same piece volume.


I put "Labor" as your favor point. My post was all questions not "it is". If my writing was sound that way my appology. 
Run 5-8 Epson printers will need 2-4 persons. While you may can do by 1.
But,
Now I am going to say "it is" not questions.
I think 8 Epson will give you much more production than what you have. Further more NeoFlex 2 ea will match your production with 1 operator. It is bold address but I will not hasitate to try next to next.


----------



## ROYAL SAVAGE

allamerican said:


> I put "Labor" as your favor point. My post was all questions not "it is". If my writing was sound that way my appology.
> Run 5-8 Epson printers will need 2-4 persons. While you may can do by 1.


I asked because I honestly would not know how many people you would need. Its kind of like having 4 6 head embroidery machines versus 2 12's. Less people is better. Spend less make more - sometimes!


----------



## DAGuide

ROYAL SAVAGE said:


> I asked because I honestly would not know how many people you would need. Its kind of like having 4 6 head embroidery machines versus 2 12's. Less people is better. Spend less make more - sometimes!


Could be true in some cases, till you have an issue with the equipment and production comes to a stop. There are pros and cons with both methods. There are a ton of shops with multi-head embroidery machines that do the same job on hundreds of items. There are also many shops that have multiple single heads that do hundred of items with different artwork on each one. One benefit of multiple single heads versus a single multi-head is the minute the multi-head stops because of a thread break... all of the heads stop. So some big shops have done their research and determined that for their business model a software system that is designed to queue multiple single heads is best for them. Melco's embroidery business model is based off of this concept. 

The same concept can be applied to dtg printing. Just another alternative way to look at things.

Mark


----------



## allamerican-aeoon

You here too!! Good to see you here I was waiting for you. Mention your name couple times. So? tell us some ---.


----------



## DAGuide

Peter,

What do you want me to tell you or the rest? Should we talk about the garment you made for Barry at the Austin show?  Just kidding... that unforgettable moment can stay between the three of us.

Mark


----------



## 102557

Is this the kornit that is 60,000?

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTPo1wdqykc[/media]


----------



## FatKat Printz

german13 said:


> Is this the kornit that is 60,000?:eek


Someone was talking about this same one.. here is the thread

http://www.t-shirtforums.com/kornit/t103792.html

Press Release from Kornit

Kornit Digital unveils the New Kornit 921 Breeze Entry Level Printer


Favorite line:

_“Customers tell us they want a high quality direct-to-garment printer that is easy to handle and at an affordable price,” says Sarel Ashkenazi, VP of Marketing & Business Development at Kornit... this new entry-level product that delivers this and more, to an expanding customer base who are very conscious of cost but require investment in the high-end hardware which is our specialty"_


----------



## 102557

At that price!! you could by three awesome commercial epson dtgs!! or 2 and a pretreat machine!! etc..

Wow! pretty much a no-brainer to me.. you would have machines working at all times regardless of any issues.. print time doesnt look like it warrants the cost to me.. must be made from kryptonite


----------



## DAGuide

Don't forget about the ink cost. Upfront investment can be offset with a much lower variable cost if you have the print jobs to justify it.

I am not for or against either concept... as they both have their place in the market and I know people that are successful with both. You just need to find the one that fits your business model.

Mark


----------



## 102557

DAGuide said:


> Don't forget about the ink cost. Upfront investment can be offset with a much lower variable cost if you have the print jobs to justify it.
> 
> I am not for or against either concept... as they both have their place in the market and I know people that are successful with both. You just need to find the one that fits your business model.
> 
> Mark


Unless im missing something the ink costs are nearly the same when you buy dupont/ t-print from aftermarket suppliers? 

kornit at about 180 a liter for ink

epson dupont inks 150 a liter and 200/230 for white.. based on dtginks.com pricing and t-print products pricing...

however prebagged would be more for the epson.. this is way to small of a difference to count IMHO..


----------



## DAGuide

The viscosity of Kornit is significantly higher than the Epson-based dtg inks. So you can't really compare one ML to the other. You also have differences in the cost of the Epson-based pretreat fluids compared to the Kornit wetting fluid. It was also already mentioned about the difference in labor cost above. There are other things (i.e. cost of electricity or natural gas to run the dryer for the Kornit printers,...) that also need to be considered. Differences in color gamuts and what it takes to process the artwork file should also be considered. Lot of factors to consider.

Again, I am not promoting one method over another. Just need to look at all the factors and what works best for you.

Mark


----------



## FatKat Printz

@ 2,900 lbs thats insane.. Brother GT-782 is like what 500+ 

How is that entry level? I still want confirmation that you run other OS besides Windows XP on the Kornit.


----------



## kevrokr

Our largest customers (i.e. large industrial printing companies) have replaced their Kornits with Epson based printers. With output at up to 15,000 dark garments per day, I think that speaks for itself.


----------



## 102557

DAGuide said:


> The viscosity of Kornit is significantly higher than the Epson-based dtg inks. So you can't really compare one ML to the other. You also have differences in the cost of the Epson-based pretreat fluids compared to the Kornit wetting fluid. It was also already mentioned about the difference in labor cost above. There are other things (i.e. cost of electricity or natural gas to run the dryer for the Kornit printers,...) that also need to be considered. Differences in color gamuts and what it takes to process the artwork file should also be considered. Lot of factors to consider.
> 
> Again, I am not promoting one method over another. Just need to look at all the factors and what works best for you.
> 
> Mark


Are you saying a kornit lays down less ink because of the higher viscosity of the ink? Just trying to figure out why we cant compare ml to ml.. wouldnt the viscosity only mean one could run a thicker ink? but does it mean it uses less? and has anyone tested this theory?

additionally wouldnt a higher viscosity mean larger nozzles and in effect a lower DPI print capability!!

wetting agent vs cured epson pretreat on dark wouldnt the kornit require more ink because its being absorbed by the shirt sort of like printing white shirts with an epson? alot of unanswered variables.. I think!!


----------



## DAGuide

Jeff, 

I think you can prove that the higher viscosity inks require a lower amount of ink used on dark garments. Just look at the amount of white ink used compared to CMYK ink for an average dark garment. Most Epson-based RIPs will show that you use 8 to 10 times the amount of white ink as color ink. If you run the same artwork through the GT driver, you use 4 to 5 times the amount of white ink as color. I have not played with a Kornit since they brought out their own RIP (called QuickP). Not sure what the general ratio is for the Kornit. 

But I am pretty confident that the higher viscosity white inks don't require the same amount of white ink as it does for the Epson printers based on these numbers. The logic is that it would require the same amount of TiO2 particles to block out the color of the garment - no matter what viscosity the ink is. Remember that the fluid part of the ink is actually made up of pigments and carrier fluid. The carrier fluid is what burns off when you cure the ink. The higher viscosity inks are able to apply more Ti02 particles on the garment in a single fire of the print head compared to a lower viscosity ink that requires additional carrier fluid to thin the ink out. I have talked to a couple of ink manufacturers that have confirmed that it is much easier to thicken an ink up then to thin it out. So I think it does make sense, but I am not a fluid engineer. If anyone else has some basic logic that they would like to apply, I am more than willing to listen. 

Mark


----------



## DAGuide

kevrokr said:


> Our largest customers (i.e. large industrial printing companies) have replaced their Kornits with Epson based printers. With output at up to 15,000 dark garments per day, I think that speaks for itself.


Absolutely, but I also know of another company that has several Kornit 931 printers and even a GT-782 printer. That is exactly what I am trying to say. For some companies, multiple printers allow for more single, one-off designs to be done. This is because the time it takes the computer to RIP a job and send it to the printer adds up. But there are other companies that sell larger runs that make it more advantageous to have less printers and less employees. 

Just have to find what works best for your business model.

Mark


----------



## 102557

Sure would be nice to see an ink estimate on both with the same image/size..


----------



## DAGuide

german13 said:


> wetting agent vs cured epson pretreat on dark wouldnt the kornit require more ink because its being absorbed by the shirt sort of like printing white shirts with an epson? alot of unanswered variables.. I think!!


It all comes down to the chemical reaction between the wetting agent and the white ink particles. I am not a chemist, but I will say if you feel an average Kornit print (not the ones done at a show, because they are not average) to an average Epson-based printer, the Kornit seems to me to have less of a hand. I fully understand that there are ways to decrease the hand (i.e. amount of white ink and removing the color of the garment), but I am talking about average print. 

I think if you go to SGIA or another show and touch / feel a design you provide from each printer, you will probably come to the same conclusion. Again, this is just my opinion based on what I have seen from clients, prints on the trade show floors and the samples that I have sent to me.

And yes, there are a lot factors that are not typically discussed. Most of the time, sales people don't want to talk about the factors because it extends the sales process and can easily confuse people from making a buying decision.

Mark


----------



## 102557

Most of the time, sales people don't want to talk about the factors because it extends the sales process and can easily confuse people from making a buying decision.

Mark

UNDERSTATEMENT OF THE YEAR!!!!...... or..... possibly leading them to the path to purchasing the better printer!!!


----------



## DAGuide

german13 said:


> UNDERSTATEMENT OF THE YEAR!!!!...... or..... possibly leading them to the path to purchasing the better printer!!!


I guess it is all about your perspective. 

Mark


----------



## 102557

Its the making of stuff like this (epson/s) [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJCyDHG1_4g[/media]

that make me think what could ever even possibly come close to this type of production for the price..

It would take something massively impressive to beat this unit.. watching this in anticipation!!


----------



## allamerican-aeoon

I can't agree more to Mark's comments. All printers have their own nitch and market. 
It is all depends on individual choice. Same as restaurant menu.
What is your most important list?
1. Price can afford?
2. Output quality? 
3. Service and parts?
4. Production rate?
5. Economical? Justify their investment?
6. Does it fit to market they want to go in?
7. Longevity?
8. Company reputation? Character.
9. Warrantee.
There are more than above lists but with this choices there will be 362880 choices.9x8x7x6x5x4x3x2=362880 different scores will come out.
This is why I cannot agree more to his point. HAS OWN MARKET!!!!
Someone will say "8" is most important someone will say "3" is and go on.
My guess on German is 5,1,4,6,3,9,7,8,2 (maybe) Kevin thinks 8,9,5,2.4,6,7,3.1(same). Mine is ???????? if your guess is right free machine will follow,haha. What is yours?


----------



## brice

*Re: What DTG machine do you own and how did you make your decision on it *



TahoeTomahawk said:


> Yea, users can decide for themselves at the show by going around to different DTG vendors and watching them print in real time. Inspect the shirts close-up.


I visited the Belquette booth at ISS in Orlando and their expert printed a very colorful shirt. Unfortunately it was like an offset print where one or more colors shifted. You could see where certain colors were not aligned properly with the image. Then I watched him spend 15 minutes trying to tune the driver while the Belquette guy and him were muttering about what the right solution was. If the "expert" and the vendor were trying to figure it out, I decided then and there to wait on a DTG purchase. ANY DTG purchase.


----------



## allamerican-aeoon

*Re: What DTG machine do you own and how did you make your decision on it *



brice said:


> I visited the Belquette booth at ISS in Orlando and their expert printed a very colorful shirt. Unfortunately it was like an offset print where one or more colors shifted. You could see where certain colors were not aligned properly with the image. Then I watched him spend 15 minutes trying to tune the driver while the Belquette guy and him were muttering about what the right solution was. If the "expert" and the vendor were trying to figure it out, I decided then and there to wait on a DTG purchase. ANY DTG purchase.


Your post is off the topic but has very good point for choose right printer and company. Find right printer to fit you well in futue. 
Often exhibitor says "shipping damage""show place is too dry to print" "electric is blabla""somebody savataged""come back later""refuse to print your art work you bring to show"
You know what they are all BS. If they cannot create best image and running machine well at show which they prepared days before the show. Then how can you do well as beginner? 
This is not the first time I heard. LB,ISS show xxxx company were yelling each other at the show to blame each other between owner and workers. Please go to the show before spend Hard Money you earned. Touch and see and ask. Sample collection is also a must.


----------



## brice

I don't think it was off topic at all. If a vendor, any vendor, can't make their product work properly, every time on the third day of a show, the technology doesn't work. 

Let's get a fair comparison going. Set up your video camera and film first print of the day start to finish. Getting your image prepped to print, tweaking the RIP, whatever. Soup to nuts. Then film mid day production of the same thing. New image soup to nuts, pretreat, cure, everything. Finally, document ink usage, maintenance performed during the day, final production counts. Doesn't matter if you have 1 Kornit v 2-3 Eposon printers. Just video your production operation and document costs (ink, maintenance, labor) etc. Then post your results here, including properly photographed shots of the of the finished shirts. No need to comment, make excuses, or explain what's being shown beyond, perhaps, the documentation of the steps. 

That's all we need to do here. Then open the discussion to comment on the FACTS. 

Of course, I believed in Santa until I was 7.


----------



## FatKat Printz

DAGuide said:


> I think you can prove that the higher viscosity inks require a lower amount of ink used on dark garments. Just look at the amount of white ink used compared to CMYK ink for an average dark garment. Most Epson-based RIPs will show that you use 8 to 10 times the amount of white ink as color ink. If you run the same artwork through the GT driver, you use 4 to 5 times the amount of white ink as color. I have not played with a Kornit since they brought out their own RIP (called QuickP). Not sure what the general ratio is for the Kornit.


Here is what I found on the Kornit website

Spectra Nova AAA Print Heads 
Kornit uses high-performance Spectra® Nova 256/80 AAA Printheads. With 256 nozzles and an 80 pico-liter drop volume, Kornit’s Spectra printheads deliver 300% more ink per drop than systems using Epson heads. At average print resolutions, this lets you achieve greater color vibrancy with ½ the number of drops! Thanks to the large diameter nozzles, Spectra Nova AAA heads are better able to handle highly pigmented inks with less clogging and maintenance.

all for $2,250.. Does the Kornit use one or two printheads?? I am sure its 2...

Spectra Nova Printhead JA 256/80 AAA - $2,250.00 : Printheads online - Spectra 128, Nova, Skywalker,, Konica Minolta KM512, Xaar 126/128

I don't know why this link won't work.. http://printheads-online.com/


----------



## DAGuide

*Re: What DTG machine do you own and how did you make your decision on it *



allamerican said:


> Often exhibitor says "shipping damage""show place is too dry to print" "electric is blabla""somebody savataged""come back later""refuse to print your art work you bring to show"
> You know what they are all BS.


Well Peter, I have done at least half the amount of shows as you have and have seen plenty of times when equipment is either damaged by the freight or material handling companies. I have also seen things work properly one day of the show and come in the next morning and something that would not naturally happen...did happen (i.e. 4 print heads have scratches going in all different directions on the bottom of them, an air bladder that had what looked like a perfectly straight cuts in them,...). I have also heard things like the equipment got lost on a train. I will not put names or brands to any of these events or comments, but I do think some of the things were not complete BS.

Mark


----------



## DAGuide

FatKat Printz said:


> Does the Kornit use one or two printheads?? I am sure its 2...


All depends on which Kornit printer you are talking about and whether you are talking about CMYK or white inks. 

Mark


----------



## allamerican-aeoon

brice said:


> I don't think it was off topic at all. If a vendor, any vendor, can't make their product work properly, every time on the third day of a show, the technology doesn't work.


Belquette never present all of us. Nor none of us will tell you they cannot do it so we cannot too. Actually/maybe/probably the other way around.
You will have a right to say "technology is not here yet" after check all others. Then it is fair and squire.
Why I said off the topic was you make this BQ vs ALL. We are talking about Kornit vs. Epson modified Printers.
As I said "you have great point". Nothing against any. Matter of fact I am glad to see there are many of you out there with Eagle eyes. Thank you.


----------



## 102557

One missprint with digital printing and the technology doesnt work?

This was stated by the screen printer i think.. so i guess you have never had any screens come out bad..etc? does this mean that technology doesnt work? 

I think anyone you ask will give you an honest answer that there are misprints and errors occasionally with all methods of decoration.. same with screenprinters..

Horses were once the main stream travel method also.. now we drive cars!!! welcome to the digital age its only going to get better!!


----------



## FatKat Printz

*Re: What DTG machine do you own and how did you make your decision on it *



DAGuide said:


> but I do think some of the things were not complete BS.


things happen.. just because something is faulty at show doesn't mean the machine or company faulty. 

You gotta remember they are traveling with these machines and equipment and have a makeshift printing area.They are usually shipped before they get there and we all know how shipping items are. Its a 3-4 demo show, not a print production contest. Jerid admitted to something that was going on and maybe Kevin knows what happened at the time you were there. 

Not trying to make excuses but these printers sit out in the open for 3-4 days at a time in an open area with no protection (locked doors, booths, etc) Many DTG printers are not traveling printers- I could hardly see anything bigger than a Anajet or kiosk being a mobile event printer. Maybe there are some bigger ones but I am sure they were specially designed for that particular mobility (in a vehicle or mobile trailer)

If it was the first day or last day.. it doesn't matter. I went to several DTG booths and saw problems. Not to call you out Peter, but Justin was showing me a rhinestone machine and something got stuck he explained what could have happened and within 5 mins it was up and running. _Peter had all of his machines running during the entire time I was there. (sure FESPA liked that electric bill _ but what I am trying to say is it happens.

The Kornit booth only brought the Breeze ..why proly because it was the easiest to travel with. 

Since Belquette is local to you, Brice call them up and schedule a demo. If you were really interested in DTG, you would have come back and asked what the "solution" was.. what happened? why did it happen?


----------



## 102557

DAGuide said:


> Peter,
> 
> What do you want me to tell you or the rest? Should we talk about the garment you made for Barry at the Austin show?  Just kidding... that unforgettable moment can stay between the three of us.
> 
> Mark


Maybe this was a misprint aswell no?

things happen!! It happens to us, at LEAST once a day!! no masking the truth here..


----------



## FatKat Printz

DAGuide said:


> All depends on which Kornit printer you are talking about and whether you are talking about CMYK or white inks.
> 
> Mark


I was just going off the Breeze information.. I wasn't sure. 

In the Specs:

Print Heads : Piezoelectric drop on demand ink jet heads. 
5 colors,6 print heads, 256 nozzles per head.


----------



## allamerican-aeoon

*Re: What DTG machine do you own and how did you make your decision on it *



DAGuide said:


> I will not put names or brands to any of these events or comments, but I do think some of the things were not complete BS.
> Mark


Correction: 
1: Yes we did have shipping damage. this is why AA bring extras to not to waste attendees effort to come to see. all vendors should for respect customers.
2. Sabotage: Lowest class human being will do that however we cover all after the show. sometimes taping around the booth. Come in early and check all and be ready to Visitors. all vendors should cover their booths.
3. Lost or delay: AA had a show in EU. Folklift driver put in wrong Ship where it goes to India. We air all to Full Booths again. Phoenix Int' never pay me a dime. Cost me more than show itself. all vendors should. Not to disappoint visitors.
Bottomline is we as vendors should be ready for any
circumstanses instead of excuses.
Be ready to showtime = Respect visitors.


----------



## 102557

brice said:


> I don't think it was off topic at all. If a vendor, any vendor, can't make their product work properly, every time on the third day of a show, the technology doesn't work.
> 
> Let's get a fair comparison going. Set up your video camera and film first print of the day start to finish. Getting your image prepped to print, tweaking the RIP, whatever. Soup to nuts. Then film mid day production of the same thing. New image soup to nuts, pretreat, cure, everything. Finally, document ink usage, maintenance performed during the day, final production counts. Doesn't matter if you have 1 Kornit v 2-3 Eposon printers. Just video your production operation and document costs (ink, maintenance, labor) etc. Then post your results here, including properly photographed shots of the of the finished shirts. No need to comment, make excuses, or explain what's being shown beyond, perhaps, the documentation of the steps.
> 
> That's all we need to do here. Then open the discussion to comment on the FACTS.
> 
> Of course, I believed in Santa until I was 7.


 
If only... In a perfect world.. this would be a great achievement.. Highly unlikely due to truths be shown...

After we accomplished this feat we will shoot for world peace and reincarnating the beatle members so they can reunite..


----------



## FatKat Printz

*Re: What DTG machine do you own and how did you make your decision on it *



allamerican said:


> .
> Bottomline is we as vendors should be ready for any
> circumstanses instead of excuses.


Very true, but somethings are out of your control like the shipping it was out of your control.

But just because you saw one incident and then go an rule out all DTG means to me you really weren't that interested anyway. 
I went to every DTG, and I do support Belquette because of how it changed my printer. But to be fair to "everyone" I went and look and all of them. 

As this thread is about, Kornit vs Epson.. I didn't care for the way Kornit operated and the prints were not up to par. Other Epson printers, were impressive and some did exceed my expectations. 
Some distributors and their "experts" , had some problems but it was to be expected because its a demo show and its not perfect.


----------



## loloxa

brice said:


> I don't think it was off topic at all. If a vendor, any vendor, can't make their product work properly, every time on the third day of a show, the technology doesn't work.
> 
> Let's get a fair comparison going. Set up your video camera and film first print of the day start to finish. Getting your image prepped to print, tweaking the RIP, whatever. Soup to nuts. Then film mid day production of the same thing. New image soup to nuts, pretreat, cure, everything. Finally, document ink usage, maintenance performed during the day, final production counts. Doesn't matter if you have 1 Kornit v 2-3 Eposon printers. Just video your production operation and document costs (ink, maintenance, labor) etc. Then post your results here, including properly photographed shots of the of the finished shirts. No need to comment, make excuses, or explain what's being shown beyond, perhaps, the documentation of the steps.
> 
> That's all we need to do here. Then open the discussion to comment on the FACTS.
> 
> Of course, I believed in Santa until I was 7.


If you don't mind I'll wait for you to be first.


----------



## 102557

.............as the kornit folks, sit back and laugh in amusement at the epson format representatives taking personal jabs where an opportunity exits.. rather than supporting there company's mission with facts....


----------



## allamerican-aeoon

*Re: What DTG machine do you own and how did you make your decision on it *



FatKat Printz said:


> I went to every DTG, and I do support Belquette because of how it changed my printer.


I was the one who said "off the topic" didn't I? It is time to R kick in.
I bet my bottom $$$ to you. Any ink bag will change your Printer (DTG, SWF). 
I may will starting to make by Monday even though it is not fit to NeoFlex but it will to my future Baby. Ink first and Machine later. Will you try my ink? 100% DuPont. Same bag, same line, same ink, same process but cheaper. Then will you support me too? Joke.


----------



## jim55912

Has Kornit changed art prep requirements for dark shirts? Do you still have to create the under-base in photoshop?


----------



## FatKat Printz

*Re: What DTG machine do you own and how did you make your decision on it *



allamerican said:


> I was the one who said "off the topic" didn't I? It is time to R kick in.


Yes, you said it was off topic but the Mod is an Epson based printer.. the thread started off with a DTG Epson OWNER and Kornit OWNER. I am a DTG Epson OWNER and have been to several ISS shows and don't expect everything to be perfect. 



allamerican said:


> I bet my bottom $$$ to you. Any ink bag will change your Printer (DTG, SWF).


Not any bag.. properly degassed and micro-filtered bag. 



allamerican said:


> I may will starting to make by Monday even though it is not fit to NeoFlex but it will to my future Baby. Ink first and Machine later. Will you try my ink? 100% DuPont. Same bag, same line, same ink, same process but cheaper. Then will you support me too? Joke.


Which part is a joke?? Are you serious about starting ink bags? 

My meaning of support > excellent customer service,prolonging the life of my printers, supportive with a printer that they don't even sell. Yes, the bags have changed my printers I have expressed this many times. 
Did it speed up my production even though its a Kiosk 2? 
Yes, we have less down time and better prints. 

I do not have a MOD or anything else besides inks and ink lines from Belquette. So whatever happened at the show they will have to address this. But I do know that I don't expect a show to show me perfection, I expect my questions to be answered, I expect the truth and I expect if its not the solution for me that they tell me right away instead of talking me out of my request and into something else.


----------



## allamerican-aeoon

german13 said:


> Maybe this was a misprint aswell no?
> 
> things happen!! It happens to us, at LEAST once a day!! no masking the truth here..


Nope! it was NOT a print mistake. 
I try so hard not to happen on my book especially at show. You come and see. Our TIGERS(tech team) are very discipline and well trained. They are proud of be #1.
It was perfect Sequin transfer letter "B" (My new machine sells more than DTG). I transfer upside down to Barry's(One of Brother big Boss) hometown team. It was funny and he want to keep it because it is unique.


----------



## JeridHill

At both Orlando and Atlantic City ISS shows we were using a new beta demo for our RIP. Maybe it was a poor choice to try something new at the show without first trying it out in full back at our shop, but we always are willing to print other peoples files on the spot. We have never shied from it and sometimes the art we get needs prepped to get it to print right. Add the uncertainty of some new features of the rip and this can easily happen. We don't try to hide anything and are always willing to accept the challenge. The bottom line is when we train new customers, we walk away and they are able to operate their equipment with confidence and continued repeatability and of course success.


----------



## loloxa

*Re: What DTG machine do you own and how did you make your decision on it *



FatKat Printz said:


> I do know that I don't expect a show to show me perfection, I expect my questions to be answered, I expect the truth and I expect if its not the solution for me that they tell me right away instead of talking me out of my request and into something else.


I have to say that seeing a machine miss registration is like going to buy a car and have the car not start at the dealership, is one of those eery moments were you go "ffffffffffffffff".

I really think that some companies should really hire operators (us in this thread for example) to go at the shows to do the demos, company technicians build the thing ,try it and ship it, sales people are not up to the task of running the machine , they are good at coming up with margins and discounts, but operators with a passion would make a better impression on possible buyers, and we attend this contraptions every day in sickness and death, we care because we love the machines to work, not exclusively to be sold.


----------



## FatKat Printz

*Re: What DTG machine do you own and how did you make your decision on it *



loloxa said:


> I have to say that seeing a machine miss registration is like going to buy a car and have the car not start at the dealership, is one of those eery moments were you go "ffffffffffffffff".


Here is the thing.. If it were any other company I would agree but as you can see Jerid explained what happened. I knew he would step up to the plate and explain what happened. He took ownership of the problem. Call it what you want.. but I knew it wasn't a big deal. 

Now, I wasn't implying that missing registration is ok what I meant was I don't expect everything to be perfect while at a show. If I were really serious about purchasing a DTG printer, I would travel to them and see them in a controlled environment. If I knew then what I know now, I may have purchased a different printer because I was not knowledgeable about my K2 purchase. I went to SWF but not knowing all the problems and this forum wasn't has vocal as it is now. I probably wouldn't have purchased..but now with everyone asking how to run their machine and getting answers. I have more knowledge about a company and its printers.

So if I decide to purchase another printer, trust me its not gonna be at an ISS show its gonna be at their main office.


----------



## JeridHill

*Re: What DTG machine do you own and how did you make your decision on it *

As for misregistration, it's a matter of fine tuning the settings. Every machine is different and sometimes we don't have the time required before the show to get it where it needs to be. We are working on correcting this, for example by going in a day earlier then we used to. If it is in registration for one print at the correct setting then it will be for other prints. Where you should cringe is when a machine prints inconsistently from one print to another regardless if the design changes or not. This I can 100% guarantee didn't happen. If there was a misregistration problem it would have been consistent until we had time to fix it. After that, there isn't a problem. When we install a printer, we have the same issue until we get it into registration because every printer is different in the way the choke works. If this wasn't the case, this forum would be riddled with unhappy customers stating their misregistration issues, something you simply don't see.


----------



## allamerican-aeoon

JeridHill said:


> At both Orlando and Atlantic City ISS shows we were using a new beta demo for our RIP. Maybe it was a poor choice to try something new at the show without first trying it out in full back at our shop, but we always are willing to print other peoples files on the spot. We have never shied from it and sometimes the art we get needs prepped to get it to print right. Add the uncertainty of some new features of the rip and this can easily happen. We don't try to hide anything and are always willing to accept the challenge. The bottom line is when we train new customers, we walk away and they are able to operate their equipment with confidence and continued repeatability and of course success.


 
If Fred from iProof (RIP writer) read your post here. What will he say? It is "deja vu" all over again. Remember Flexi time? "PIXEL don't lie" was Fred's famous word. I like to take responsibility on my shoulder than point some where else. Well that's just me.
Please let's get back to main Thread. 
I guess Kevin(BH) does not working today. I want to hear him and other Kornit owners.
I sacrified my golf today because my favorite customer is visiting us. He said Saturday is only day he could come. But hey! customer is the KING!!!! 
Two TIGERS and Me are here to welcome him.
Beers are on me, always. Cheers!! Lunch arrived. Philly Cheese Steak with Customer.


----------



## allamerican-aeoon

allamerican said:


> As I said "you have great point". Nothing against any. Matter of fact I am glad to see there are many of you out there with Eagle eyes. Thank you.


Jerid: 
"If this wasn't the case, this forum would be riddled with unhappy customers stating their misregistration issues, something you simply don't see".

Our job is make them happy and deliver our promise. Not hide.


----------



## FatKat Printz

allamerican said:


> If Fred from iProof (RIP writer) read your post here. What will he say? It is "deja vu" all over again. Remember Flexi time? "PIXEL don't lie" was Fred's famous word. I like to take responsibily on my shoulder than point some where else. Well that's just me.


Off subject Peter.. but I can say Jerid is correct. 
Honestly, I do know they are working a new beta version of RIP..because you have to constantly be changing your RIP software otherwise you can't print some of these crazy outrageous prints customers want now and days.Plus, white ink is still fairly new in the DTG market but graphic artists imaginations are off the charts. Its like with cellphones.. my god its hard to keep up. We have RIP V04 and the latest version, it does have limitations but there isn't any new updates that will be done to this software in the near future.So, I asked Belquette about their RIP not realizing it was iproof and that RIP software is still being developed out there not necessarily for my printer but others out there so software is still growing and developing with time. If this is a negative for Epson (I don't think it is.. ) its developing software which is great. 

baby steps.. I don't think Jerid is taking the blame for anything. He stepped up to the plate and explained what was going on. Even though he didn't have to but its an explanation. 

Just like Justin did when your rhinestone machine got stuck.. he gave me a clear understanding of why it happened, he took responsibility for your company and product. 

Really, this post has nothing to do with Fred it was about the comment that was made that because of a registration error a potential customer is refusing to buy DTG from anyone including you. 




allamerican said:


> Please let's get back to main Thread.
> I guess Kevin(BH) does not working today. I want to hear him and other Kornit owners.


Please back on track.. I am waiting for other Kornit Owners past and present..


----------



## allamerican-aeoon

FatKat Printz said:


> Honestly, I do know they are working a new beta version of RIP..because you have to constantly be changing your RIP software otherwise you can't print some of these crazy outrageous prints customers want now and days.Plus, white ink is still fairly new in the DTG market but graphic artists imaginations are off the charts...


FatKat, You know I do carry respect to you but you left open end here.
If BETA is not good as original they should not bring to the show. They believe that was the best of they have that is why they brought to show. Am I wrong? Will you do that? You save best and bring 2nd to the show? So, it says it was worse than people saw with Eagle eyes. Is that what you mean? Can you agree with murderer if he is your son? I am not. You seems agree with everything if starts with B. I am really done here with off subject unless you come up with open end again.


----------



## FatKat Printz

allamerican said:


> FatKat, You know I do carry respect to you but you left open end here.
> If BETA is not good as original they should not bring to the show.


HaHaHa.. Oh Peter- I didn't say anything about who was right or wrong. Jerid said it was a bad idea. why harp on it when he admitted it was wrong. I just know there isn't any BS in his statement that they were testing a BETA version.. that is all. 

I don't own a MOD but I use their inks and if my inks aren't jiving with my RIP software trust me they will be the first to know. 
I am not defending their actions because I wasn't there and I didn't see any of the problems that were mentioned. 

But, I do know that every DTG printer probably had some sort of problem or another not just Orlando but other shows, as well. Whether or not someone choose to complain on here that's thing. 

If Belquette lost a potential customer because of this problem, then let them handle it.. I just know that unlike other DTG companies don't address problems their printers are having (after ownership) and they are stuck with a paperweight. 

Those sort of situations should be addressed at the shows..like "hey when I get a fatal error what do I do" or "are you gonna leave me high and dry once my warranty is up" ..I see many people complaining about this or that on the forum why are you answering other people questions but not your products problems.. 

Have you seen that lately??? I sure have.


----------



## allamerican-aeoon

FatKat Printz;884176]HaHaHa.. Oh Peter- I didn't say anything about who was right or wrong. 

I hope you can say no to me with your right hand on your heart. Aren't you agree/right 99% of everything if anything start with B? I want to call me BAA then instead of AA. 

Those sort of situations should be addressed at the shows..like "hey when I get a fatal error what do I do" or "are you gonna leave me high and dry once my warranty is up" ..I see many people complaining about this or that on the forum why are you answering other people questions but not your products problems.. 

Our after service is last as long as BAA is in business and our product last. We have been here 26yrs and service all the machines we sold except Flexijet. At last we will buy back when life is over. I am sure you know BAA is only company offers money back guarantee. Our TIGERS will be here strong after I am long gone. Take it to bank. I never heard my products problems. Please let me know when and if you read.

Have you seen that lately??? I sure have.
No. As you well aware if I see wrong thing I cannot pass it. PM me please if you think I will be interest in. Thank you. FK
quote


----------



## brice

It was a poor decision. Leaves one to wonder:

1) what was so wrong with the original RIP they felt it better to use the beta
2) my visit was on the last day of the show. They never mentioned they were beta testing s RIP and did it really take all 3 days to get it right?

I'm not bashing this machine in favor of anything else, it just further points out that this technology remains inconsistent at best. I think this vendor is on the right track at a great price point. The machine o saw has some very nice features once the technology matures. I've been looking at DTG for 2 years and nothing has made me want to take the dive yet. 

The point here is that while you folks argue the big picture, no ones stepped up to explaining the details and do a thoroughly documented apples to apples comparison. I visited several DTG vendors at ISS and all of the salesmen, with the exception of the Belquette continued to they and pull the wool over my eyes about ink costs, print times, pre-treatment, etc. At least Jerid and Belquette were straight up with me on the added costs and realistic print times. If it weren't for the print issues, I may have moved forward on a purchase. They are right down the road from me and will be the first visit I make when I see fewer posts about the problems with the technology and more post comparing trouble free printers.


----------



## JeridHill

Brice I need to clarify it wasn't so much a rip issue as it was choosing the correct choke settings. The beta version of the RIP was a very large improvement on the handling of colors as well as printing designs like the flaming guitar with accurate colors and the white generation layer. It is still made by the same guys who made our original RIP but there were some excellent improvements and we felt it was worth using it.

Now as for taking several days, at the Orlando show, it was nonstop the entire time. After the show every day, they pretty much kick you out right away and don't want the vendors hanging out after the show. If what you saw was only between the white layer and the color the fix is really just the right amount of time to set it up. The next show in Atlantic city we didn't have this problem. We went in a day earlier and made sure they were set up right. I know in Orlando we tried to set them up in between prints but continuously were pulled away because of how busy we were. Maybe it's not the best excuse but it is what happened and helped us to see how we had to tighten our belt a little more. 

Now if there was misregistration with doing a double pass with color layers only, then it really would be a machine issue, something we just don't have problems with. Another way to look at it is a screen printer has to register colors and does a poor job you notice. This is the same. The great thing with DTG is you register the white layer to the color layer one time per resolution settings and you don't have to do it again. The original setup can be time consuming because you must print the white layer then color afterwards to see your accuracy. If it's off, rerip the job and print. Most of the time the numbers are pretty close from machine to machine but sometimes they are a little more off. The interesting thing about the beta rip is there seems to have been some great things done under the cover that corrected some things with the choke. I was getting a crash course in choking once again. The good thing is it was easier to understand but I wasn't 100% familiar with it because it was somewhat new to me at the show. I don't know if it was me you witnessed this from, but once it's right, it's right. Again the AC show was much different because we had an extra day to setup with no interruptions.


----------



## brice

Thanks for the explanation Jerid. That was pretty clear about what was going on.


----------



## FatKat Printz

JeridHill said:


> Now as for taking several days, at the Orlando show, it was nonstop the entire time. After the show every day, they pretty much kick you out right away and don't want the vendors hanging out after the show.


I _disagree_  with this statement Jerid.. because at 5:02 when I was at the FEPSA show I wasn't allowed back into ISS. We had to go out the other doors.. 


JeridHill said:


> The good thing is it was easier to understand but I wasn't 100% familiar with it because it was somewhat new to me at the show. I don't know if it was me you witnessed this from, but once it's right, it's right..


I _disagree_  again, why?? I don't know figured I gotta disagree with something when it comes to the "B-word" but wait you are owner of Screener's Choice.. so really I am agreeing with SC. 

So there Peter  .. I disagreed


----------



## allamerican-aeoon

FatKat Printz said:


> I _disagree_  with this statement Jerid.. because at 5:02 when I was at the FEPSA show I wasn't allowed back into ISS. We had to go out the other doors..
> 
> 
> I _disagree_  again, why?? I don't know figured I gotta disagree with something when it comes to the "B-word" but wait you are owner of Screener's Choice.. so really I am agreeing with SC.
> 
> So there Peter  .. I disagreed


You are really piece of work god create!!!
I love you!!!!
I can't wait to see you and take a big hug!!!!
First time I'm in love with enemy!!!!
Bpeter


----------



## StoneEyes

*Re: What DTG machine do you own and how did you make your decision on it *



VBGrafx said:


> We are a custom graphic design shop. So I am not going to spend a lot of time on artwork only to turn around an have a 60K machine muddy the print


 
Preach On, Preach On!! I hear you loud and clear. 

Worst thing is having a custom design with good detail and having it blasted because the printer cant perform the primary function of what its supposed to do and that in a nutshell is print that jaw dropping head turning graphic!


----------



## chobay

*Re: What DTG machine do you own and how did you make your decision on it *

Yikes, how this thread has degenerated.. Since this is a Kornit vs. Epson thread, i'll throw in my story. A customer wanted some samples for a large shirt order. They sent me some shirts to print on, which already had sample prints of their designs from someone else. 

The hand was very soft and stretchy. However, the feel was very bumpy and the print was dark. When I say bumpy, it was similar to when you get some extreme goosebumps on your skin.. 

I asked out of curiousity, what brand printer printed the samples, they said Kornit. I was really amazed that the imfamous Kornit printed such a poor quality print, IMO, not sellable. Some people may prefer that kind of feel, to each his own. The color was WAY off from the original art as well. Needless to say, I won the job with my Velocijet, all before even discussing pricing or turnaround..)


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## chobay

*Re: What DTG machine do you own and how did you make your decision on it *

Yikes, how this thread has degenerated.. Since this is a Kornit vs. Epson thread, i'll throw in my story. A customer wanted some samples for a large shirt order. They sent me some shirts to print on, which already had sample prints of their designs from someone else. 

The hand was very soft and stretchy. However, the feel was very bumpy and the print was dark. When I say bumpy, it was similar to when you get some extreme goosebumps on your skin.. 

I asked out of curiousity, what brand printer printed the samples, they said Kornit. I was really amazed that the imfamous Kornit printed such a poor quality print, IMO, not sellable. Some people may prefer that kind of feel, to each his own. The color was WAY off from the original art as well. Needless to say, I won the job with my Velocijet, all before even discussing pricing or turnaround..)


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## FatKat Printz

*Re: What DTG machine do you own and how did you make your decision on it *



chobay said:


> The hand was very soft and stretchy. However, the feel was very bumpy and the print was dark. When I say bumpy, it was similar to when you get some extreme goosebumps on your skin..


Did it seem as though the fibers weren't laid down correctly?
I know they came to you, but was their initial reaction to the print.


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## chobay

*Re: What DTG machine do you own and how did you make your decision on it *

I don't remember whether there was any fibrilation. Wish I still had the samples, would have taken a pic..


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## ROYAL SAVAGE

FatKat Printz said:


> Off subject Peter.. but I can say Jerid is correct.
> Honestly, I do know they are working a new beta version of RIP..because you have to constantly be changing your RIP software otherwise you can't print some of these crazy outrageous prints customers want now and days.Plus, white ink is still fairly new in the DTG market but graphic artists imaginations are off the charts. Its like with cellphones.. my god its hard to keep up. We have RIP V04 and the latest version, it does have limitations but there isn't any new updates that will be done to this software in the near future.So, I asked Belquette about their RIP not realizing it was iproof and that RIP software is still being developed out there not necessarily for my printer but others out there so software is still growing and developing with time. If this is a negative for Epson (I don't think it is.. ) its developing software which is great.
> 
> baby steps.. I don't think Jerid is taking the blame for anything. He stepped up to the plate and explained what was going on. Even though he didn't have to but its an explanation.
> 
> Just like Justin did when your rhinestone machine got stuck.. he gave me a clear understanding of why it happened, he took responsibility for your company and product.
> 
> Really, this post has nothing to do with Fred it was about the comment that was made that because of a registration error a potential customer is refusing to buy DTG from anyone including you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please back on track.. I am waiting for other Kornit Owners past and present..


Boy you guys were busy burning it up over the weekend. I was waxing my boat getting ready to fish.
One thing we don't have on Kornits over here are registrantion errors. We could fix the ourselves due the the clever registration wizzard in the machine. As for difficulty with the rps, we have so many options open to us we don't have to worry about that.


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## JeridHill

ROYAL SAVAGE said:


> Boy you guys were busy burning it up over the weekend. I was waxing my boat getting ready to fish.
> One thing we don't have on Kornits over here are registrantion errors. We could fix the ourselves due the the clever registration wizzard in the machine. As for difficulty with the rps, we have so many options open to us we don't have to worry about that.


We don't have registration issues either once the machine is set up, as I said before, it just takes time. I assume someone is required to set your machine up, my guess is, they deal with it upon install.


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## ROYAL SAVAGE

JeridHill said:


> We don't have registration issues either once the machine is set up, as I said before, it just takes time. I assume someone is required to set your machine up, my guess is, they deal with it upon install.


It is factory pre-set and checked at installation. The new Kornit registration system takes only a short time to adjust in the event of a problem. There is a lot of fore thought in this improvement.


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## JeridHill

ROYAL SAVAGE said:


> It is factory pre-set and checked at installation. The new Kornit registration system takes only a short time to adjust in the event of a problem. There is a lot of fore thought in this improvement.


So factory preset means they already set it up in the system before you see it. I'm sure it's the same difference, they just do it there before shipping.


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## ROYAL SAVAGE

How do you know if you have the right ammount of pretreat on a shirt for Epson printers ?


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## chobay

My eyeball? Like with any repeated physical task, when you do it enough times it becomes second nature.. Some folks also use pretreat machines, although I find this a waste of money..

Forgot to mention I use a special technique to lay down fibers and reduce fibrilation.


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## vinyl signs

chobay said:


> Forgot to mention I use a special technique to lay down fibers and reduce fibrilation.


What is this "SPECIAL TECHNIQUE"?


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## Theedge

Just saying....

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiUsfEkVRDY[/media]


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## Pvasquez

Just saw the thunder in a live environment let me just say "WOW" I am impressed. My opinion don't really matter but I have Epson based model


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## ROYAL SAVAGE

Pvasquez said:


> Just saw the thunder in a live environment let me just say "WOW" I am impressed. My opinion don't really matter but I have Epson based model


Those are industrial production machines that you can run 24/7. Your opinion does matter - you own Epson gear. Thanks for being honest. When you see the gear run in a production environment all day you see the difference. Not knocking anyones gear but there IS a difference and it's huge


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## Pvasquez

ROYAL SAVAGE said:


> Those are industrial production machines that you can run 24/7. Your opinion does matter - you own Epson gear. Thanks for being honest. When you see the gear run in a production environment all day you see the difference. Not knocking anyones gear but there IS a difference and it's huge


I don't need it for production, the one I have suits my needs. Besides I need to be able to print 22"x40". It defenitly would be nice.


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## TahoeTomahawk

ROYAL SAVAGE said:


> Those are industrial production machines that you can run 24/7. Your opinion does matter - you own Epson gear. Thanks for being honest. When you see the gear run in a production environment all day you see the difference. Not knocking anyones gear but there IS a difference and it's huge


In a production environment do the fibers lay down better than they do in the show? Are the prints less grainy due to filibration? I'm not knocking your gear, I'm just wondering.


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## Pvasquez

TahoeTomahawk said:


> In a production environment do the fibers lay down better than they do in the show? Are the prints less grainy due to filibration? I'm not knocking your gear, I'm just wondering.


I don't have one but I seen this so third part answer take it however you want.

I had seen the issue your talking about at another place but they just run the straight edge of a ruler after the pre-treatment before it prints and this takes care of the fibers issue.

On the new thunder I saw today it looks like they added that feature but in auto mode so it's not done by hand. Picture this the shirt goes in to pre-treat and comes out, a blade drops down and flattens the fibers as the pallet comes out then it picked up the shirt goes in and starts to print. It was part of the process so it's seconds. 

After, yes, I didn't see any fibers poking thru it printed really nice, very impressive it did a double pass of white and color in 2 minutes that's just sick.


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## JeridHill

Pvasquez said:


> it did a double pass of white and color in 2 minutes that's just sick.


As can Epson based systems. This is a prototype, but it shows the possibilities.....

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJCyDHG1_4g[/media]


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## jim55912

We have been in embroidery since 1983, with 60 Tajima Heads. We started screen printing about 10 years ago, we run 6 color automatic. We owned Kornit serial number 12, a Flexi-jet and currently run 2 Brother 541's. 

Our experience with Kornit is probably irrelevant, as it was a few years ago. I assume the new machines have improved. We are currently holding off on the whole white ink thing until the bruises heal up.

One of our Brother machines has 70,000 prints, the other 30,000, never had a service call, original heads. When we are busy we run them 8 - 12 hours per day. I sometimes have to grab a new white shirt to run a test print because we no longer have misprints to grab. The ONLY misprints we get are operator error...ever. The first shirt Monday morning is perfect. We spend 10 minutes a week on maintenance.

I like the fact that financial risk of buying a new brother printer is akin to that of buying a used car....not a house. If one pukes out (never has) the other keeps going. 

One more thing... the idea that Epson does not make an industrial printer is pure hogwash. Epson is the gold standard in the digital industry everywhere but textile. I know Brother is not Epson...just sayin.

Use the machine that works for you.


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## allamerican-aeoon

Hahaha, I love TSF. All are disappeared when Jim made big statement with soft convincing voice . It was most popular post on forum with 5 stars. I was away to have meeting with customer who came from Phillippine
My view is little different than Jim's. 
If there are wheels why don't we use it? But make sure wheels are in good orders. Then there is no Jim like who has bad exprience with Epson base machine. I may sold to him too. I will take part of responsibilty if Jim claims. If wheel is not in good aliment then Epson modify machine is in trouble. If good mechanism and good electronic added on best Wheel(Epson) by certified people then we can save money and have good performance never less than Brothers.
Jim, thing are changed. I understand that why you are scream at rope because you had exprience of biten by the snake.
Do we know how many other printers out there are using Epson printhead?
Endless textile printers and solvents. Too long to list here. all using a same wheels.


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## sunnydayz

ROYAL SAVAGE said:


> How do you know if you have the right ammount of pretreat on a shirt for Epson printers ?


Here is a thread that discusses some of the best pretreatment methods on an epson based machine, or any of them for that matter  http://www.t-shirtforums.com/dtg-pretreatment/t52278.html


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## DAGuide

sunnydayz said:


> Here is a thread that discusses some of the best pretreatment methods on an epson based machine, or any of them for that matter  http://www.t-shirtforums.com/dtg-pretreatment/t52278.html


BobbieLee,

Since there are so many different posts with different variations that people use when doing their pretreatment process, I started this post to try and consolidate them - http://www.t-shirtforums.com/dtg-pretreatment/t148669.html. This should make it easier for people to find the different tips / tricks and determine which one works best for them. Feel free to copy your information into this post as well if you like.

Mark


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## allamerican-aeoon

kornit vs Epson modify is become Pretreat vs Everybody's way. It alway end up with different way as Jim said.


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## WholesalePrint

What amazes me is that not that its a under 2 minute print but that the image is clearly NOOOOOT a 10x12 image anyhow great engineering by Mark.
Next Epson may or may not be gold standard who cares. What is known is they have the capability to create printheads of many different GRADES. So to say because the create a high level grade printhead for the saaaaay the Gs6000 it don't mean they have a top grade printhead FOR DTG INKS in everyday paper printers. SO PLEASE lets not confuse the 2. Ask epson if they like the money from the printhead revenue? You better believe it. Ask them why not create a DTG printhead and thats a different story. THEY CAN cause they already make a printhead that can handle Titanium Oxide but my money is they like it things just the way they are.


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## brice

YOU TOO can combat fibrilation:

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmWEeDRJURU[/media]


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## JeridHill

WholesalePrint said:


> What amazes me is that not that its a under 2 minute print but that the image is clearly NOOOOOT a 10x12 image anyhow great engineering by Mark.


A 9"x9" design in 1 minute and 18 seconds isn't that bad either. Clearly a 10"x12" design could easily be achieved in well under 2 minutes. And again, this is an Epson based prototype.


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## WholesalePrint

lol its a epsonssss mean 2 prototype lol But anyway I like Marks work


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## allamerican-aeoon

I saw same thing in my booth 5 years ago but disappeared. called Dual. remember? Never see the Sun. Concept only it was.


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## WholesalePrint

> Never see the Sun. Concept only it was.


 Yes Obi One lol

Wuuuuzzzzupp Peter! I don't why but I think peter is a pretty honest guy.


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## allamerican-aeoon

WholesalePrint said:


> Yes Obi One lol
> 
> Wuuuuzzzzupp Peter! I don't why but I think peter is a pretty honest guy.


I following up your post often too. I feel the same.


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## FatKat Printz

Is there any more kornit users out there? I just want confirmation on XP OS requirements..does it work on newer OS? Also how long does a 2k printhead last?


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## PPop

IMHO It all comes down to what you need the machine for. The Kornit "might" be better for a $5 million/year T-Shirt T-Shirt Shop like Royal Sav's, due to production speeds, ink costs, operator efficiency and auto pretreat, where the Epson definitely "might" be better for a smaller company like me who relies 100% on Image Clarity, but only needs 20-30 shirts per day.

BIG decision points for me are:
1. The Quality of the Printed Image 
2. Repairs, & Down Time
3. The costs of the Heads

I agree with Adam in that the Kornit Samples I've got from shows and seem dull and grainy.

I thought that the Brother Prints I was getting last year were the bees knees, but now that I've seen 1st hand, the Epson Production Print Quality and Brightness of Whites, I think the quality of the Epson Prints are the BEST! So far the prints We've done lately on the Epson DTG are the brightest, most vibrant, best looking far and above the Brother 782's... (We've only printed a few samples of our designs on the Kornit at ISS a year ago and they really were dark, grainy, lacked pop, etc, and they really didn't wash well, which is why we contract printed with the Brother Machine)

So now that 4th Generation DTG if here (hallelujah!), I still feel that the Kornit is King (in it's world), but the Epson is waaay better for me. Besides, I just don't have a spare $35k in my pocket to fix the Kornit!


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## TPrintDesigner

An e-mail received from a customer this morning..

hi dean

yes i used 3 companys so far. for DTG so far the your Quality is the best for color and resolution.
the JPG is from company called ****** they do all my hoodies. they use a kornit printer
16x17 the print resolution is not bad the thing that lets them down is the color is very dull.


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## JeridHill

TPrintDesigner said:


> An e-mail received from a customer this morning..
> 
> hi dean
> 
> yes i used 3 companys so far. for DTG so far the your Quality is the best for color and resolution.
> the JPG is from company called ****** they do all my hoodies. they use a kornit printer
> 16x17 the print resolution is not bad the thing that lets them down is the color is very dull.


Once upon a time, I needed a print and used someone on these forums who had a Kornit. I screen printed a large volume of shirts but they only wanted 1 dozen on black. So instead of making an additional screen I subbed it out. They drop shipped them directly to my customer and guess what, my customer called me and asked if I had seen the shirts. I told them no and then they told me I never would have approved the quality. It was banded real bad, the shirts looked different from print to print. So I told them to do whatever they wanted with the shirts and of course I did not charge them.

So there are stories on both sides. Kornit most likely has come very far since then, but you don't know what other dtg printers were used. We get customers all the time who are just absolutely wowed at the prints they receive (or print themselves) on an Epson based system. We have more than one customer who sold their Kornit printers and replaced then with Epson based.

When you really get down to it, the print quality on an Epson based system is far superior to a Kornit, simply for the fact the resolution of the printhead is much greater.


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## brice

And you used? 



TPrintDesigner said:


> ... your Quality is the best for color and resolution.


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## Rodney

*Thread note:* some off topic posts have been moved out of this thread. Let's keep this professional please. Everyone is going to have their own different opinions but there's no reason why folks can't have a _friendly_ discussion (I hope )​


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## JeridHill

TPrint, I just reread what you wrote and realized I must have read it wrong the first time! I see you are saying your print was better than the Kornit print. I think this is consistent from person to person I've talked to. I'm assuming you are using a 782?


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## TPrintDesigner

The print that I sent him was from a GT-782

The reason I posted part of his email was to show you Kornit feedback from a customers perspective, after all, these are the guys who are buying the shirts and paying our bills. It wasn't to put anyones machine down.


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## brice

Didn't think you were trying to put anyone down at all. Good information and perspective. Thank you. 



TPrintDesigner said:


> The print that I sent him was from a GT-782
> 
> The reason I posted part of his email was to show you Kornit feedback from a customers perspective, after all, these are the guys who are buying the shirts and paying our bills. It wasn't to put anyones machine down.


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## PPop

I've thought a lot about this...

The Epson DTG Machine is GREAT if you need 20-30- maybe 40 shirts a day (Like I do)...

But... If you need to print 350+ shirts of 1 to 50 different designs, with white ink, = 5 CASES of 72 Shirts total, then ... it just plain sucks. 

This is what the Kornit, maybe the Brother 782 is MADE for.

It's like using a bit**en brand new Chevy or Ford 2 ton pickup Truck to move mountains of rock, like those massive Mining trucks do...

It's not the pretreatment, as we pretreat 40 shirts in advance, IT's THE TIME IT TAKES to PRINT 350 Shirts!!!

IMHO


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## cavedave

Doing volume is all about the correct work flow configuration, Zazzle have 30+ Epson based prints, each machine is setup to do 3 shirts at a time and one PC drivers 2 machines and 1 operator.
A separate person pre treats all the shirts for all the machines and collects them when they are printed and dried.

You are not going to do as many t-shirts on one Epson as one Kornit, but if you but multiple Epson based printers you certainly can and you can buy multiple Epson printers for the price of a Kornit.

Zazzle started with Kornits and switched to Epson, it suited there business and work flows better.

I think you have to find the machine that fits your business needs and work flow / resources available.

Best regards

_David


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## ROYAL SAVAGE

PPop said:


> I've thought a lot about this...
> 
> The Epson DTG Machine is GREAT if you need 20-30- maybe 40 shirts a day (Like I do)...
> 
> But... If you need to print 350+ shirts of 1 to 50 different designs, with white ink, = 5 CASES of 72 Shirts total, then ... it just plain sucks.
> 
> This is what the Kornit, maybe the Brother 782 is MADE for.
> 
> It's like using a bit**en brand new Chevy or Ford 2 ton pickup Truck to move mountains of rock, like those massive Mining trucks do...
> 
> It's not the pretreatment, as we pretreat 40 shirts in advance, IT's THE TIME IT TAKES to PRINT 350 Shirts!!!
> 
> IMHO


Your right on this about the time. the Kornit will outprint the Epson model on dayily yield. The best thing about the Kornit is that there is no pretreat in advance and no heat pressing. Load, Print, Conveyor Dryer, Box, Ship. The bigger machines are like minining trucks.


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## DAGuide

FatKat Printz said:


> Is there any more kornit users out there? I just want confirmation on XP OS requirements..does it work on newer OS? Also how long does a 2k printhead last?


I had a friend ask about this when he was at the ISS Columbus Show. He was told that it would work on any of the operating systems. Not sure if that includes 32-bit or 64-bit though.

I would imagine the differences in the range on the print heads are the same as they are with an Epson. So that would be too hard to answer.

Mark


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## jim55912

We like our setup, 2 brothers through a conveyor drier. We get as much production as we did from our more expensive machine, plus they are maintenance free. We have just over $30,000 in the two.


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## ROYAL SAVAGE

jim55912 said:


> We like our setup, 2 brothers through a conveyor drier. We get as much production as we did from our more expensive machine, plus they are maintenance free. We have just over $30,000 in the two.


 
Thats all that matters. If it works in you place that's the way to go.


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## brice

jim55912 said:


> We like our setup, 2 brothers through a conveyor drier. We get as much production as we did from our more expensive machine, plus they are maintenance free. We have just over $30,000 in the two.


But you aren't printing black shirts with that investment are you? Aren't the 752's more like 50G+?


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## jim55912

brice said:


> But you aren't printing black shirts with that investment are you? Aren't the 752's more like 50G+?


No black shirts yet, just two 541 machines.

We have owned a couple white ink machines in the past, just not happy. The current white ink machines may be just fine... we are not ready to jump yet.


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## loloxa

jim55912 said:


> We like our setup, 2 brothers through a conveyor drier. We get as much production as we did from our more expensive machine, plus they are maintenance free. We have just over $30,000 in the two.


How long is your conveyor?

regards


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## ROYAL SAVAGE

jim55912 said:


> No black shirts yet, just two 541 machines.
> 
> We have owned a couple white ink machines in the past, just not happy. The current white ink machines may be just fine... we are not ready to jump yet.


 
You don't print black tees? That's unusual in this day and age. All we print is black tees. we got an order for 300 white tees this month and thats the only good order on white this year! DTG is about black tees in full color.


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## jim55912

Nope, no black tees... 

Dryer... keep in mind we run an auto screen print machine. We have a 24 foot dryer, 8 load, 8 heat, 8 unload. 500,000 btu.


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## JeridHill

jim55912 said:


> We have a 24 foot dryer, 8 load, 8 heat, 8 unload. 500,000 btu.


Nice.......


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## DAGuide

ROYAL SAVAGE said:


> You don't print black tees? That's unusual in this day and age. All we print is black tees. we got an order for 300 white tees this month and thats the only good order on white this year! DTG is about black tees in full color.


It might be for your market with your printer, but dark garment dtg printing is not for everyone. In fact, I have no problem stating that more of what is being printed is light garments (no white ink) than dark garments right now. For most dtg owners, light garment printing is easier and more profitable. This might be different for someone that owns a non-Epson based dtg printer because there are differences in equipment and ink chemistry. But to say that not printing dark garments is unusual for most dtg printers is inaccurate based on my experience.

Mark


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## loloxa

jim55912 said:


> Nope, no black tees...
> 
> Dryer... keep in mind we run an auto screen print machine. We have a 24 foot dryer, 8 load, 8 heat, 8 unload. 500,000 btu.


thanks for mentioning the screen printing setup, cuz a 24 foot dryer for 2 brothers would seem like an overkill for me.

thanks again.


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## WholesalePrint

> Thats all that matters. If it works in you place that's the way to go.


Yesssss All day


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## allamerican-aeoon

Getting bored here. DAguide said all along over and over. Fit to theirs. Why keep coming back with SameO? Are you just reading last page?


----------



## JohnL

*Re: What DTG machine do you own and how did you make your decision on it *



TahoeTomahawk said:


> We wouldn't be able to sell any of the prints coming off the Breeze, we usually throw those out as rejects. I wouldn't even buy one for 10k.


Ouch that is pretty harsh. I do believe that the standard has begun to rise in the DTG industry. The trend seems to be that the customer base is becoming more and more quality savvy. with 15+ years in retail, once a new standard is set it is very difficult to sell a lesser product unless the price is drastically less.

Interested to see what the end result will be.


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## TahoeTomahawk

How is it harsh, it's the truth. Most of our customers are artists and designers who created their own artwork, Grainy prints like the ones we saw coming off the breeze would not fly. If we have any hint of filibration or incomplete coverage of white ink, we have to discard it as a reject.


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## allamerican-aeoon

TahoeTomahawk said:


> How is it harsh, it's the truth. Most of our customers are artists and designers who created their own artwork, Grainy prints like the ones we saw coming off the breeze would not fly. If we have any hint of filibration or incomplete coverage of white ink, we have to discard it as a reject.


Adam, I or maybe all of us want to see your acceptable print. Now we heard what is your reject is cuz we saw many Kornit prints. You said your print is very good or at least much better than Kornit. Post some pictures here and let us can download same image (without this we do not know what is original look should be). Then many who have disagreed with you will surrender or will challenge. Talk is cheap. Isn't it? 
I am not for Kornit or for Epson in this post. I just want to see the man who is good for word or just keep talking. I am not talking about you here Adam. Many in this thread. All day long blablabla only.
Now you have chance to end it in peace.


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## TahoeTomahawk

I already explained what I mean and anyone who owns an Epson based DTG printer can try it.

Pre-treat and air dry your shirt, Pre-treat and press your shirt.
Then print them both.. the one you pressed obviously will be a smoother crisper print. The one that was not pressed will be grainy and have filibration.

And in my opinion, since the Breeze simply wipes down the fibers and does not heat press them, they come back up in an unacceptable way.

Here are some prints that we've done awhile back on our Kiosk, even these are pushing the limit .. some of the prints have a few fibers here and there.

http://www.t-shirtforums.com/dtg-brand/t122078.html

And to clear the record, I'm saying the prints I witnessed printed at the show on the Breeze by the Kornit operators were very grainy. If someone wants to show off some prints that are not grainy and explain how they did it, by all means do so, but don't attack me because I'm not impressed by the quality.


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## TahoeTomahawk

Here is more little to no filibration

http://www.t-shirtforums.com/belquette/t121824.html

Many other DTG users have prints that are just as good, but not as grainy as the ones from the Breeze.


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## allamerican-aeoon

TahoeTomahawk said:


> but don't attack me because I'm not impressed by the quality.


Adam, I sell Epson base. Why should I attack you? I hope you are not talking about me. Did you ever see any soldier shot own soldier/team? OK If you would not do it I will tomorrow.


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## TahoeTomahawk

Not you Peter, there were several comments made to me by over-sensitive people. Going back to my original post, I was comparing the print quality based on the pre-treat being dried and pressed vs not.


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## allamerican-aeoon

TahoeTomahawk said:


> Not you Peter, there were several comments made to me by over-sensitive people. Going back to my original post, I was comparing the print quality based on the pre-treat being dried and pressed vs not.


Somehow you always make me sweat!!!!


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## VBGrafx

TahoeTomahawk said:


> I already explained what I mean and anyone who owns an Epson based DTG printer can try it.
> 
> Pre-treat and air dry your shirt, Pre-treat and press your shirt.
> Then print them both.. the one you pressed obviously will be a smoother crisper print. The one that was not pressed will be grainy and have filibration.
> 
> And in my opinion, since the Breeze simply wipes down the fibers and does not heat press them, they come back up in an unacceptable way.
> 
> Here are some prints that we've done awhile back on our Kiosk, even these are pushing the limit .. some of the prints have a few fibers here and there.
> 
> http://www.t-shirtforums.com/dtg-brand/t122078.html
> 
> And to clear the record, I'm saying the prints I witnessed printed at the show on the Breeze by the Kornit operators were very grainy. If someone wants to show off some prints that are not grainy and explain how they did it, by all means do so, but don't attack me because I'm not impressed by the quality.


OK, you are heat pressing the Pre-treatment.... Question, do you have to cure the print by heatpress or can you run them through a belt dryer?


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## allamerican-aeoon

VBGrafx said:


> OK, you are heat pressing the Pre-treatment.... Question, do you have to cure the print by heatpress or can you run them through a belt dryer?


Answer is both.
Most Epson modified DTG owners are in small business = less production = do not need major dryer = small space.
This dryer do DuPont ink or any ink
light shirts: 1 minute / 6 draws = 10 sec every shirt
Dark : 3 minute /6 = 30sec. Faster than gas belt dryer. Much cheaper. Small space, less utility only 6000-8000 watt 3ph.
Please do not look down Epson DuPont ink users. Perefect wash test.









Video
http://s899.photobucket.com/albums/ac191/mp19134/?action=view&current=dryer003.mp4


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## chobay

Wow, that's pretty cool.. I love the stack of 4880's in the background too...)


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## Pvasquez

allamerican said:


> Answer is both.
> Most Epson modified DTG owners are in small business = less production = do not need major dryer = small space.
> This dryer do DuPont ink or any ink
> light shirts: 1 minute / 6 draws = 10 sec every shirt
> Dark : 3 minute /6 = 30sec. Faster than gas belt dryer. Much cheaper. Small space, less utility only 6000-8000 watt 3ph.
> Please do not look down Epson DuPont ink users. Perefect wash test.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Video
> [media]http://s899.photobucket.com/albums/ac191/mp19134/?action=view&current=dryer003.mp4[/media]


Where can you get that dryer?


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## Pvasquez

VBGrafx said:


> OK, you are heat pressing the Pre-treatment.... Question, do you have to cure the print by heatpress or can you run them through a belt dryer?


I tried drying in both gas and electric dryers but can't seem to find the sweet spot for darks any suggestions ? For darks only, lights are not a problem

Forgot to mention that a heat press for darks is the only way I get good washability..


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## allamerican-aeoon

Some posts are give us impression that Epson Printer owners are low class bunch. I may have wrong feeling but I just want to show to those people what multi Epson modified owners are doing. 
This dryer owners are maybe never visit here but they are hugh.
This dryer dark 3min perfect cook. never burn cuz hot air. Take away water in a heart beat. Belt dryer: lose temp every where Should be sealed to have perfect temp', big space & $$$$. Air flow is the key. Hot air flow is better than direct heat contact to ink.
One point Kevin said touch (screen print) can be create by hot air oven.


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## TahoeTomahawk

We dry both our Pre-treat and final print using a Vastex conveyor dryer. We run the darks through at just about 3 min, then do a final press for 35-45 seconds. I'm sure the final press helps with washability, but it also helps with making the print softer. The dryer tends to make it more crispy, not sure why.


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## Justin Walker

That's an impressive looking dryer unit, Peter! Considering how much energy it requires to run multiple heat presses, that could be a very economical option for curing the shirts..... What's the price point look like?


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## allamerican-aeoon

TahoeTomahawk said:


> We dry both our Pre-treat and final print using a Vastex conveyor dryer. We run the darks through at just about 3 min, then do a final press for 35-45 seconds. I'm sure the final press helps with washability, but it also helps with making the print softer. The dryer tends to make it more crispy, not sure why.


Adam, that is double work. Heat press only is faster since you like faster (not sxx please). You should find the sweet spot.
I think increase by 200% (6 min) to start if you need 45sec (actul time is more than 45. load and unload) to insure by heat press. 
Where/what is your sweet spot? 
Good to have friends --- haha


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## allamerican-aeoon

Justin Walker said:


> That's an impressive looking dryer unit, Peter! Considering how much energy it requires to run multiple heat presses, that could be a very economical option for curing the shirts..... What's the price point look like?


I will pm you the details. Save tons on energy 1500W (normal heat press) in 110V X 10 press = 15KW watts with many labor (biggext cost). Think about wires runs like spider web. 110V is charged as home use. 220 3PH is industrial rating we pay 1/4 of 110V (when we see KW on bill). All different by the states. Some state elect' is cheaper to run than a gas.
10 heat presses = $13750 = with big utility, space, labor.
1 Sahara = will keep up 10 hand press = $8995 printer(person) can do it while printer(machine) prints. Save bunch ROI in few months. Perfect dry. With 6-8KW at cheaper industrial rate.


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## Pvasquez

TahoeTomahawk said:


> We dry both our Pre-treat and final print using a Vastex conveyor dryer. We run the darks through at just about 3 min, then do a final press for 35-45 seconds. I'm sure the final press helps with washability, but it also helps with making the print softer. The dryer tends to make it more crispy, not sure why.


I need to try to avoid the heat press its a pain, still testing different dryers.


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## Pvasquez

allamerican said:


> I will pm you the details. Save tons on energy 1500W (normal heat press) in 110V X 10 press = 15KW watts with many labor (biggext cost). Think about wires runs like spider web. 110V is charged as home use. 220 3PH is industrial rating we pay 1/4 of 110V (when we see KW on bill). All different by the states. Some state elect' is cheaper to run than a gas.
> 10 heat presses = $13750 = with big utility, space, labor.
> 1 Sahara = will keep up 10 hand press = $8995 printer(person) can do it while printer(machine) prints. Save bunch ROI in few months. Perfect dry. With 6-8KW at cheaper industrial rate.


Pm me too if you have a price. Thanks


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## allamerican-aeoon

Pvasquez said:


> I need to try to avoid the heat press its a pain, still testing different dryers.


How many heat presses do you have? How many printers?


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## Pvasquez

allamerican said:


> How many heat presses do you have? How many printers?


The good thing it's not for production I just don't like doing it like this when I do demos on the machine, I want it to be as user friendly as possible and have good washability without having to heatpress.


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## allamerican-aeoon

Pvasquez said:


> The good thing it's not for production I just don't like doing it like this when I do demos on the machine, I want it to be as user friendly as possible and have good washability without having to heatpress.


Are you a Epson modifier like me? I hate to read here often someone said "I am a Manufacturer in USA or where" when they are only doing modifying. I cannot digest well who loves/crazy with big titles. I don't remember when I had business card says "President or CEO or owner. Actually my business title is Tech Sales. Don't you too? All you need is turn on 10-15 minutes before the demo. How many do you want? 
I should study on you. I never did cuz I don't care about others. hehe
I think it is perfect fit to Kornit owners. Few unit owners


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## TahoeTomahawk

We mainly use the press just to get back the soft DTG feel. I wonder if the unpressed one will be soft after washing. I don't know.


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## Pvasquez

allamerican said:


> Are you a Epson modifier like me? I hate to read here often someone said "I am a Manufacturer in USA or where" when they are only doing modifying. I cannot digest well who loves/crazy with big titles. Don't you too? All you need is turn on 10-15 minutes before the demo. How many do you want?
> I should study on you. I never did cuz I don't care about others. hehe
> I think it is perfect fit to Kornit owners. Few unit owners


I'm not a modifier just trying to keep up with technology, always learning. Everytime I print something new it blows me away. Using a 3 year old machine and it prints just as good as new.


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## allamerican-aeoon

I'm not a modifier just trying to keep up with technology, always learning.

Why and what for? What is your beef?

Everytime I print something new it blows me away.

You like blows away things? New such as what?

Using a 3 year old machine and it prints just as good as new.

Like my cars. Show us some pics which is better than Kornit. If not forget it. 
Thank you.


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## allamerican-aeoon

allamerican said:


> Some posts are give us impression that Epson Printer owners are low class bunch. I may have wrong feeling but I just want to show to those people what multi Epson modified owners are doing.


Was it just my feeling? or anybody felt same?
Flog in the well thinks sky is only a quarter (25cents) size.


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## rndubow

After scanning all of the comments concerning Kornit versus Epson, I figured I should add a couple of words to the topic. we have been successfully producing both white and dark garments on our original 931 Kornit printer for over 5 years. We purchased our second 931 printer about 3 1/2 years ago and just purchased the new 951 Avalanche this month. 

I don't think there is a right or wrong decision in which machine you think you want to own, or eventually buy, it is the right decision for you. Those that work hard at what they do, learn the nuances of their piece of equipment have a successful business model for what they purchased their equipment for will succeed. Those that sit back, want it all, and expect it to be easy, will end up failing and blaming it on equipment or someone else. 

Fortunately,we have worked hard and been very successful in the digital print market. It hasn't always been easy, and yes, I cringe when I have to replace a $2300.00 print head, but that the cost of doing business and it works for me.

By the way, for those of you that care and have an open mind about where the future of digital print is, our 951 Avalanche is able to produce up to 60 full size images on black garments, start to finish in an hour. That is a true commercial workhorse.


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## Justin Walker

rndubow said:


> By the way, for those of you that care and have an open mind about where the future of digital print is, our 951 Avalanche is able to produce up to 60 full size images on black garments, start to finish in an hour. That is a true commercial workhorse.


What is the price point on the Avalanche printer?


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## rndubow

It is somewhere north of $250,000.00 and south of $300,000.00 depending on what options and pallets you choose to add.


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## allamerican-aeoon

rndubow said:


> Fortunately,we have worked hard and been very successful in the digital print market. It hasn't always been easy, and yes, I cringe when I have to replace a $2300.00 print head, but that the cost of doing business and it works for me.


Great story and you sounds polite than others. You can say you are fortunate all day long cuz many Kornit users are gave up Kornit operation which we found those machines most of them in Brazil. I think I know who you buy from, they are good supplier in MW. 
But that is wrong racial. All Kornit owners have to be success 100% with normal skill and average knowledge and without unlimited fund and hugh investment. I heard and read, in real world success rate is not as high as Epson owners.


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## allamerican-aeoon

rndubow said:


> It is somewhere north of $250,000.00 and south of $300,000.00 depending on what options and pallets you choose to add.


18 Epsons? plus few dryers? Do you know how many 18 Epson can produce per minute in Kornit quality? 
Mine is 6 per minutes others I don't know while Kornit gives you only 1 and pay $300,000.00 = life time saving if lucky.


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## Pvasquez

allamerican said:


> I'm not a modifier just trying to keep up with technology, always learning.
> 
> Why and what for? What is your beef?
> 
> Everytime I print something new it blows me away.
> 
> You like blows away things? New such as what?
> 
> Using a 3 year old machine and it prints just as good as new.
> 
> Like my cars. Show us some pics which is better than Kornit. If not forget it.
> Thank you.


I'm complementing the technology, I'm not knocking it. 

man I hope I don't get into truble


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## Pvasquez

One more that's it.


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## allamerican-aeoon

Pablo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! VIVA!!!
Great Print!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Kornit cannot produce same!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thank you So much for raise Epson side hands. Can you upload image here so Kornit owners download and print and post? 
Do you think high nose persons will get reeled in for challege? My bet is Never!!!! Dog with tails in. You did too good. I can be wrong as usual but let see. I was going to do but I am not a end user.
Why are you going into trouble? Never!!! You show what you believe. We respect you.


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## rndubow

allamerican said:


> 18 Epsons? plus few dryers? Do you know how many 18 Epson can produce per minute in Kornit quality?
> Mine is 6 per minutes others I don't know while Kornit gives you only 1 and pay $300,000.00 = life time saving if lucky.


I am happy to pay the one time cost of purchase compared to the recurring labor cost it would take to produce as many finished garments on an Epson based printer.


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## allamerican-aeoon

rndubow said:


> I am happy to pay the one time cost of purchase compared to the recurring labor cost it would take to produce as many finished garments on an Epson based printer.


In order to keep up 1/min shirts.
You need minimum 2 labor on production line Printer + end of belt.
In order to run 18 Epson is you need 3 labor on production. All 3 printers(person) will keep feed dryer and taking off when it buzz.
Hello I am not Einstein!!!!! or CPA. with 6 times more production? Kidding? 
Kornit 2 labor / 1 min / 1 shirt
Epson 3-4 labor / 1 min / 6 shirt. I have customer who run 18 printers with 4 labor all day long. AXX in haddonfield, PA.
I am scraching my head.


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## VBGrafx

What do you like about the 951 over the 931? Why not another 931?


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## allamerican-aeoon

Hit wide reciever. 95 yards down the road. Same goal to Epson base. Man he is getting old, see the wrikles?


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## rndubow

Speed is primary. The rest of the technology is the same.


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## rndubow

allamerican said:


> In order to keep up 1/min shirts.
> You need minimum 2 labor on production line Printer + end of belt.
> In order to run 18 Epson is you need 3 labor on production. All 3 printers(person) will keep feed dryer and taking off when it buzz.
> Hello I am not Einstein!!!!! or CPA. with 6 times more production? Kidding?
> Kornit 2 labor / 1 min / 1 shirt
> Epson 3-4 labor / 1 min / 6 shirt. I have customer who run 18 printers with 4 labor all day long. AXX in haddonfield, PA.
> I am scraching my head.[/QUOTE
> 
> I am happy you think so. Tell my 2 staff members who run all 3 machines they can't keep up. If you have the greatest equipment on earth, why do you fi
> Nd it so necessary to knock others? As I said earlier be happy with your decision, work hard and make money.


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## Pvasquez

allamerican said:


> Hit wide reciever. 95 yards down the road. Same goal to Epson base. Man he is getting old, see the wrikles?


That looks good except for the sequence..whats up with that???


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## allamerican-aeoon

rndubow said:


> Speed is primary. The rest of the technology is the same.


It is not SAME. If you want to try print this I will upload image here. But I am sure you will/can not. Bye


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## allamerican-aeoon

Pvasquez said:


> That looks good except for the sequence..whats up with that???


how about this? I sell sequin machines too. sorry.
[media]http://i899.photobucket.com/albums/ac191/mp19134/mail.jpg[/media]


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## Pvasquez

allamerican said:


> how about this? I sell sequin machines too. sorry.
> [media]http://i899.photobucket.com/albums/ac191/mp19134/mail.jpg[/media]


It was a joke...Sequence on a Football player? Get it? Anyway it looks good and I will try to print this image.


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## allamerican-aeoon

I was thinking on what is $300,000 is to normal population and business.
If anyone has best credit 2.9% is loan amount: 60month pay back: $5377/month. Lease is often 10% plus. $6500. In order to make profit bigger than this after pay labors plus. 2person x $500/wk= $4200/month. Utility plus space requirs 1500sq' ($10/sq'/yr) = $2500. + ink (monthly max production 9600/$0.50 (not sure)/ shirts $4550 + maintenace cost since head is $2500 it is fair to say $1000. = Grand total: $18750 is cost to run this monster. Now always add 10% is safe for investment: $21,000/month. if job is never run out, if machine never stop, when all show off at work but in real world is it possible? Your call.
Output per day is 480 shirts if so. x 20days/month = 9600 shirts.(much less but)
$21000/9600= $2.18 profit required to make even but there are supporting labors. Acct', shipper, etc. Now, depreciation is waiting. Give 10yrs is generouse number in any equipments = $2500/month/9600shirts 
So $3.50 minimum profit on shirts will make him/her barely EVEN before insurance. In real business world numbers never right 99% is more than your plan.
Well now they are contract printer (most kornit owners) = Much less profit than retailers (most Epson user) = major Epson owner does not have big tags to worry about job maybe stop coming in.
There never be unlimited job supply. Period! More job meaning work for cheap. Never wrong on this formular. But above scenario is base on all are Perfect in 10years.
Most of us are business people and understand basic is never change.
Makes me wonder that this maybe the reason why many operation were shot down or suffer with cash flow.
If anyone can fill in ink cost it will be more accurate. And I'd like to see different scenarios from both end.


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## TahoeTomahawk

So it's more like an Avalanche of debt?


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## chobay

I wonder why CafePress replaced all of their Kornits with DTG Brand, then Belquette printers? I'm going to take a stab and say they print 5k garments a day with epson printers?

Bottom line is each has its role and depends on the business model. Epson = low to medium run, print quality is priority. Kornit = industrial production runs, quality not so important.


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## allamerican-aeoon

chobay said:


> I wonder why CafePress replaced all of their Kornits with DTG Brand, I'm going to take a stab and say they print 5k garmentimportant with epson printers?
> 
> Bottom line is each has its role and depends on the business model. Epson = low to medium run, print quality is priority. Kornit = industrial production runs, quality not so important.


I took B word out on your quote.
We did not know CP changed machines until the fact that B keep saying "we sold to biggest printer in the world"
Cafe press is brave enough to eat up the loss and big enough not to get fold. I said this in other post in here "without unlimited fund" how many will stand still without this? Side income such as screen print, emb, deco trim could keep them going in order to meet demands. I hope this is the chance to them look into their PL sheet.
Since no Kornit owners are coming back and re-figure my estimate it must be darn close. I believe ink cost is much higher than $0.50 on dark. Then picture gets uglier.
However, as Mark esquire says all day in here. Fits to all.
I just raised my voice cuz I had a feeling that Epson owners were miss treated by few people here. Especially from Adam. You did it man~


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## rndubow

American, it is pretty obvious that even if you were given real numbers, that disproved your theory, you would find some way to bash reality. Because of that, enough said, back to work for me.


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## allamerican-aeoon

rndubow said:


> American, it is pretty obvious that even if you were given real numbers, that disproved your theory, you would find some way to bash reality. Because of that, enough said, back to work for me.


Yes, you better get back to work to keep up with Epson owners. Watch your PL is maybe best advise to you ever. I will watch closely on your business health. Good luck!! Medicine never taste good.


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## Pvasquez

Hypothetical question, what if there was a white that did not need pre-treatment how many washed does it need to pass? 
Not sure if I should post this here.


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## DAGuide

Pvasquez said:


> Hypothetical question, what if there was a white that did not need pre-treatment how many washed does it need to pass?
> Not sure if I should post this here.


I don't think the number changes. In the end, the wash test is done to satisfy the customer. Customers for the most part don't care what you have to do to make the garment. They want it to look good and hold up in the wash. So the number (which will vary depending on who your customer is) in my opinion does not change.

Mark


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## Pvasquez

DAGuide said:


> I don't think the number changes. In the end, the wash test is done to satisfy the customer. Customers for the most part don't care what you have to do to make the garment. They want it to look good and hold up in the wash. So the number (which will vary depending on who your customer is) in my opinion does not change.
> 
> Mark


If it stands for a year would that be acceptable or 50 washes before it starts looking bad? What are the expectations? I mean I have printed DTG and washed countless times it's craked but overall looks good, what's the printers expectations? Again all this is hypothetical


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## DAGuide

I don't think there is a general answer to this. Some people are printing high-end garments and selling them for $40+ dollars. These are the ones that want the 25+ washes. Others are selling basic t-shirts for $5.00 (plus garment) and are looking for 5 washes. Just depends on who is the user / customer, what is being charged for the garment and what the expectations are.

Mark


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## TahoeTomahawk

Pvasquez said:


> If it stands for a year would that be acceptable or 50 washes before it starts looking bad? What are the expectations? I mean I have printed DTG and washed countless times it's craked but overall looks good, what's the printers expectations? Again all this is hypothetical


I have several name brand store bought shirts that were screen printed that cracked after 10 or so washes. I have water-based screen print shirts that cracked and faded.
I've had others that lasted years and still look great.

I've had vinyl shirts that puckered and peeled, I've had others that lasted years.

Same experience you can have with DTG, I've had some that cracked, and others that I printed 2 years back that still look good.

In the end, it's a T-shirt. If it lasts awhile and doesn't wash out after the first few washes, most customers are going to be happy.


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## allamerican-aeoon

Pvasquez said:


> If it stands for a year would that be acceptable or 50 washes before it starts looking bad? What are the expectations? I mean I have printed DTG and washed countless times it's craked but overall looks good, what's the printers expectations? Again all this is hypothetical


Off the subject again, nothing strange  in TSF.
50 washes are still exist in most commercial field. Big Name brands. I was so worried about R's Royale wash test also cuz that is most scare parts to me always. Whenever we submit samples to big players. We just submit sequin transfer samples to Reebok/Adidas and biting my finger nails until 50 washes done.


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## JohnL

I've had shirts with no print on it last 5 washes.


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## Pvasquez

JohnL said:


> I've had shirts with no print on it last 5 washes.


That's too funny but I understand what you mean


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## RedRider83

brice said:


> I don't think it was off topic at all. If a vendor, any vendor, can't make their product work properly, every time on the third day of a show, the technology doesn't work.
> 
> Let's get a fair comparison going. Set up your video camera and film first print of the day start to finish. Getting your image prepped to print, tweaking the RIP, whatever. Soup to nuts. Then film mid day production of the same thing. New image soup to nuts, pretreat, cure, everything. Finally, document ink usage, maintenance performed during the day, final production counts. Doesn't matter if you have 1 Kornit v 2-3 Eposon printers. Just video your production operation and document costs (ink, maintenance, labor) etc. Then post your results here, including properly photographed shots of the of the finished shirts. No need to comment, make excuses, or explain what's being shown beyond, perhaps, the documentation of the steps.
> 
> That's all we need to do here. Then open the discussion to comment on the FACTS.
> 
> Of course, I believed in Santa until I was 7.


Ha ha, you raise some great points Brice. I would like to add that many of these companies talk of making HUGE profits, even on one-off shirts. The reality is, this can be done ONLY if the business owner knows how to figure setup costs/etc into the final price of the shirt. If you think you're going to sell a one-off shirt for 10 bucks and make a profit, you're out of your mind. No matter what, volume is your best friend (to a certain point, which is different for every business owner). 

It's been great reading this thread, I've been considering an iDot or a Melco machine. Still making up my mind, but I've already come to the conclusion that an epson-based printer is the way to go.

-Rick


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