# Plastisol vs. Discharge Printing on dark tees & more...



## rockwell (Aug 5, 2006)

I've always worked with printers who screen printed tees with Plastisol inks, but my new printer uses Discharge printing. The designs were printed on black tees, and I have to say I'm disappointed in the end result. I wanted the colors to really pop, and thought a white underbase would be best. But my printer said no white underbase was needed because they were going to be printed via Discharge, but the colors turned out pretty dull and the white ink turned out almost cream colored? I'm not so much worried about the hand, as I am having a lively print. 

Are these issues normal when printing on black tees via Discharge printing? 

Would Plastisol ink with a white underbase give the colors more pop?

Are there any other printing methods that can be used to get great colors using dark tees?

Thanks.


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## allgooddc (Jun 22, 2008)

i also started to print with discharge inks for my personal line. its pretty tricky to get those colors to pop on dark garments. then again i aim pretty new to the discharge method. I also wanted a brighter white then the cream color i was getting on black or dark tees. i used an ink from Union Ink called "plasticharge" i think thats the name. its 250am and im upstairs, but give that a shot for a nice bright white with a soft hand. see if your guys will sample that for you. Union ink has great customer service. tell them what your looking for.


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## spreadingink (Feb 10, 2008)

Yes, getting specific different colors can be almost impossible with discharge inks too - a red ink that looks really good will fade to a pinker color after washing, but discharge should be washed prior to wearing too - it is a skin irritant.

If you are not concerned about hand then there is really no good reason to do discharge and yes, plastisol with an underbase will pop.

Dave


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## rockwell (Aug 5, 2006)

allgooddc said:


> i also started to print with discharge inks for my personal line. its pretty tricky to get those colors to pop on dark garments. then again i aim pretty new to the discharge method. I also wanted a brighter white then the cream color i was getting on black or dark tees. i used an ink from Union Ink called "plasticharge" i think thats the name. its 250am and im upstairs, but give that a shot for a nice bright white with a soft hand. see if your guys will sample that for you. Union ink has great customer service. tell them what your looking for.


Thanks for the feedback...being new to Discharge printing, I wasn't sure if a bright white was even possible on a black tee or if it was the ink or what?


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## rockwell (Aug 5, 2006)

spreadingink said:


> Yes, getting specific different colors can be almost impossible with discharge inks too - a red ink that looks really good will fade to a pinker color after washing, but discharge should be washed prior to wearing too - it is a skin irritant.
> 
> If you are not concerned about hand then there is really no good reason to do discharge and yes, plastisol with an underbase will pop.
> 
> Dave


...yeah the white came out cream and the red came out almost orange?

I actually prefer colors with a lot of pop and the ink to have a glossy look...so Plastisol right? Is a white underbase definitely necessary when printing light inks on a dark tee with plastisol? My printer said they don't usually do white underbases....maybe that's because they're always using the Discharge method?


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## rockwell (Aug 5, 2006)

Also, is shrinkage an issue with Discharge printing? My logo came out about a 1/2 in smaller than the file? Never had that problem with Plastisol.


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## Unik Ink (Nov 21, 2006)

rockwell said:


> Also, is shrinkage an issue with Discharge printing? My logo came out about a 1/2 in smaller than the file? Never had that problem with Plastisol.


That might be your printer using vellum for positives. Vellum shrinks.


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## spreadingink (Feb 10, 2008)

No underbase for discharge inks - not required. Light color plastisol on dark garments, underbase unless you want a very muted look.

Dave


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## Steelheader100 (Jan 18, 2007)

If you want brighter colors and still have a softer hand on dark shirts you can use a discharge underbase and print with reduced/ultrasoft plastisol inks on top of it. This way your basically turning the image area of the shirt from dark to light and using the same softer inks you would use on light shirts. Discharge should not have nothing to do with a smaller logo. I think they probably just output the film at a smaller size.


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## rockwell (Aug 5, 2006)

Unik Ink said:


> That might be your printer using vellum for positives. Vellum shrinks.


Is that normal for a printer to use vellum? Why would you want to print a design smaller than what the customer gave you?


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## rockwell (Aug 5, 2006)

spreadingink said:


> No underbase for discharge inks - not required. Light color plastisol on dark garments, underbase unless you want a very muted look.
> 
> Dave


That's what I thought, but my printer said he doesn't like to print with Plastisol because it's not as good quality and eventually cracks. He also said that he doesn't like to print with a white underbase because the ink spreads and it's hard to align with the colors on top or something like that...are these legit issues or am I with the wrong printer for my needs?


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## screenprinter1 (Jan 5, 2008)

Sounds like he is struggling with both processes. I've seen really bright discharge, and we have no problems with plastisol underlays. I would suggest shopping around a little more and see if you can get someone with more experience. You were asking if he should be adding an underlay with discharge. If you did that then it would completely defeat the purpose of discharge because you would lose the softhand. I sounds like he is just using straight discharge ink for his white areas instead of using a white discharge ink. When you just use clear discharge, then it just removes the dye from the shirt and the original color of shirt is usually a cream or grey color. So if the discharge has no pigment in it, then it doesn't work.


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## rockwell (Aug 5, 2006)

screenprinter1 said:


> Sounds like he is struggling with both processes. I've seen really bright discharge, and we have no problems with plastisol underlays. I would suggest shopping around a little more and see if you can get someone with more experience. You were asking if he should be adding an underlay with discharge. If you did that then it would completely defeat the purpose of discharge because you would lose the softhand. I sounds like he is just using straight discharge ink for his white areas instead of using a white discharge ink. When you just use clear discharge, then it just removes the dye from the shirt and the original color of shirt is usually a cream or grey color. So if the discharge has no pigment in it, then it doesn't work.



Mmm...the printer actually does a lot of high end printing and is respected here in town. Maybe it's just a case of a bad fit, not a bad printer. 

Really, I could care less about a soft hand. The discharge printing was not even my idea, but he said it would produce a much better quality print. And the print quality is good, it's just that the colors are really dull and the white is cream. I'm sure it would look great for some vintage looking designs, but I want a bright, glossy look, which I guess leads me to Plastisol which is an ink he doesn't like to use. Damn, nothing is easy...

Also, don't you have to have reactive dye tees for discharge printing to even work properly?


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## screenprinter1 (Jan 5, 2008)

not necessarily, I've done it with several different brands and it works pretty well. I would say that plastisol is the way to go for you. I have never printed as bright with discharge as is possible with plastisol. In my opinion, a lot of printers print their whites too thick with plastisol. You can get pretty good softhand and good white brightness at the same with plastisol. Definitely not as soft as discharge though.


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## spreadingink (Feb 10, 2008)

Agree on all counts - both with the plastisol being brighter than discharge and also discharge has the best hand, but that doesn't mean by any means at all that plastisol should have a bad hand. It is all in how you treat it and how you apply your knowledge and skills to the job and materials at hand.

Dave


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## allgooddc (Jun 22, 2008)

rockwell said:


> Mmm...the printer actually does a lot of high end printing and is respected here in town. Maybe it's just a case of a bad fit, not a bad printer.
> 
> Really, I could care less about a soft hand. The discharge printing was not even my idea, but he said it would produce a much better quality print. And the print quality is good, it's just that the colors are really dull and the white is cream. I'm sure it would look great for some vintage looking designs, but I want a bright, glossy look, which I guess leads me to Plastisol which is an ink he doesn't like to use. Damn, nothing is easy...
> 
> Also, don't you have to have reactive dye tees for discharge printing to even work properly?



i would really suggest using the "plasticharge 1001" from union ink. its a mix of plastisol and dishcharge that gives a great bright white, and can be used as a base that will give you a nice soft hand. with that bright white lay down you should get the colors popping like you want them.


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## rockwell (Aug 5, 2006)

screenprinter1 said:


> not necessarily, I've done it with several different brands and it works pretty well. I would say that plastisol is the way to go for you. I have never printed as bright with discharge as is possible with plastisol. In my opinion, a lot of printers print their whites too thick with plastisol. You can get pretty good softhand and good white brightness at the same with plastisol. Definitely not as soft as discharge though.


But is it possible to get really bright whites with discharge too like some others have mentioned or will Plastisol beat it everytime? Also, do you think my whites turned out cream because of the ink he used or because it was a discharge print with white on a black tee?


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## rockwell (Aug 5, 2006)

allgooddc said:


> i would really suggest using the "plasticharge 1001" from union ink. its a mix of plastisol and dishcharge that gives a great bright white, and can be used as a base that will give you a nice soft hand. with that bright white lay down you should get the colors popping like you want them.


Thanks for the info about the ink. Now, telling an experienced printer what ink to use will be another issue.


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## rockwell (Aug 5, 2006)

spreadingink said:


> Agree on all counts - both with the plastisol being brighter than discharge and also discharge has the best hand, but that doesn't mean by any means at all that plastisol should have a bad hand. It is all in how you treat it and how you apply your knowledge and skills to the job and materials at hand.
> 
> Dave


What about the issue of the Plastisol cracking? That could be years and years down the road right?


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## spreadingink (Feb 10, 2008)

If plastisol cracks and it has not been years down the road it was most likely not cured fully.

Dave


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## Robert H (Mar 27, 2007)

spreadingink said:


> No underbase for discharge inks - not required. Light color plastisol on dark garments, underbase unless you want a very muted look.
> 
> Dave



Does anyone know about using plastisol on dark colored ringspun shirts like the Alstyle 1701? My printer is using plastisol to print orange on a brown shirt but it is really splotchy with the fabric "hairs".

Is this normal? Is there a better method?


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## Dan K (Nov 15, 2006)

First off your printer should under base it to minimize the fibrillation.

Second and probably more important is that ringspun cotton shirts fibrillate MORE. The reason for this is that the weave of the cotton is tighter, and the cotton is finer, so at the end of the day, you have MORE fibers with the potential to protrude and show through the final print color, and it can be tricky even for the best printer to totally eliminate it on certain garments... At our shop we tend to print a discharge under base rather than a plastisol under base when printing plastisol (top colors) on dark ringspun garments.


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## Robert H (Mar 27, 2007)

My printer uses an under base already although, I cant say I am 100% happy with the turnout due to fibrillation. *Is there any other way around it besides discharge?*

With discharge my printer (and most others) have a really hard time keeping the colors consistent from shirt to shirt. Having the color POP! and keeping it the same on every shirt is very important.


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## rockwell (Aug 5, 2006)

I switched back to Plastisol, and the colors are much brighter. I had an issue with one design though...it was a 2 color print with a white underbase...after one washing a large amount of plastisol came off. We recured the design at 425+ deg and the plastisol still came off, but not as much as the first time. My printer said he had never seen that happen before? Any ideas?


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## out da box (May 1, 2007)

If the white is overcured when flash, it can prevent the top colors from ahdering properly. It'll look and feel cured, but will wash out.


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## rockwell (Aug 5, 2006)

out da box said:


> If the white is overcured when flash, it can prevent the top colors from ahdering properly. It'll look and feel cured, but will wash out.


Not sure what overcuring is, but the ink washes out all the way through to the tee, not just to the white underbase layer.


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## out da box (May 1, 2007)

You only want to gel your underbase, not fully cure it. If the white is cured, the whole image may wash out.


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## Robert H (Mar 27, 2007)

My printer is telling me I have to go plastisol instead of water based if the ink is not darker than the shirts. What colors turn out best on darker shirts? Can you use water based ink on black or navy? HELP! Plastisol turns out horrible on my ringspun shirts.


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## Dan K (Nov 15, 2006)

Envy: Water base can be printed on dark shirts no problem, black and navy included. If your printer is telling you it can't be done, they probably don't know how to print with water base or don't want to.

If you print a discharge underbase with plastisol colors on top you can effectively get vibrant colors and matches.

Rockwell: The plastisol washing off is definitely an issue with the curing, whether it is not cured enough or cured too much. 425 degrees is way too much.


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## Robert H (Mar 27, 2007)

Dan,

Thank you for the reply. My printer does not do discharge because they are "Eco Friendly". Is that why I cannot get bright colors?


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## Dan K (Nov 15, 2006)

Robert,

I'm assuming that it's the printer who considers their shop eco friendly, and that discharge is not eco friendly?

Regardless, there is debate whether or not water base (discharge is a water base) is more eco friendly than plastisol... The fact is that neither one are completely eco friendly and we feel that being eco friendly is more in the way that the shop handles the ink and waste than anything else... Plastisols contain PVC and phthalates which are not eco friendly. Some discharge contains formaldahyde which again is not eco friendly... Many plastisol ink manufacturers are phasing those things out of thier inks, but the fact remains that plastisol inks are basically plastic once cured, therefore there is environmental impact, so I don't really understand that statement (assuming that they think that plastisol is more eco friendly than water base and discharge). Most discharge manufacturers are phasing out formadahyde in their discharge formulas for environemental reasons and because it stinks (not that it sucks, the stuff that still has formaldahyde really smells)...

If your printer is going to offer water base, it seems to me that they should also offer discharge because not only is it used as an underbase in many applications, but it is also used as an activator in pigmented water base inks to make the colors pop on darker colored garments. We (anyone if they're willing) can get bright opaque colors using water base and discharge on dark colored garments. We do it all the time on 90% of our orders... It all depends on what the customer wants...


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## studog79 (Jul 13, 2006)

You can get bright colors using discharge including whites. We actually have 3 different white discharge bases we use depending on the actual color desired. The most important item in colors with discharge is the shirt being printed on. It has to be a first run die shirt. Some companies will die a shirt for example yellow, not sell enough and then redie them black. Also royal shirts just do not seem to discharge well. As for having to wash them before wearing depends on wether you use Flormaldyhide (sp?) in your discharge or not. Truthfully I would want to wash any shirt before I wear them. Its amazing what you find in boxes of shirts shipped from some third world country. Lastly if you trully are looking for colors that POP use plastisol ink. Yes use a white underbase on dark shirts. For a softer hand find someone with an automatic as opposed to a manual press. You can use a much higher mesh count screen on an auto which gives you a softer hand but still does the job great.


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## Robert H (Mar 27, 2007)

Thank you for the feedback. 

There is no problem when printing plastisol besides the fibrillation.

I prefer water based but was told I could not achieve the same colors. I just love how it feels so soft ;-) It seems that I may have to look for another printer as many people are printing waterbased on darks; even whites, reds and yellows. I was told those were near impossible (Black Hole Sun by collisiontheory - Shirt of the day winner for September 26, 2008)

I appreciate you taking the time to reply, very useful. It just seems that my printer may not offer all that I need or may not have the experience.

With printing water based on darks, can you get a consistient color on every shirt? or close to it?


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## Dan K (Nov 15, 2006)

The link above (the sunburst design) is an all over print. If this is what you are asking the questions about, it seems like it would be printed with water base regardless - all of the companies I have spoken to that print all over print them water base only.

Although it is harder and most of the time not possible to get exact pantone matches with a water base ink mixing system, the prints and and should be consistent in color shirt to shirt to shirt within the same run on the same color garments and very close pantone matches are possible depending on the color garment they are printed on...


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## Robert H (Mar 27, 2007)

So when using water based ink on dark garments you typically used discharge to bleach (remove color from) the shirt and then print over the discharged area with a water based ink once dried?

If there is a place in the forums that explains this please forgive me as I was unable to find one that explains the process. 

I just want to make sure I understand the process in case I have to contract and out-of-state printer so I don't end up with dull water based printed shirts!


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## Robert H (Mar 27, 2007)

bump

Through some research I have found the best way to get a really soft hand of bright colors on dark garments is to lay a discharge base and overlay soft hand plastisol (chino base) to prevent fibrillation on ring spun shirts.*

Has anyone had a good experience with this?*


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## Dan K (Nov 15, 2006)

EnvyApparel said:


> So when using water based ink on dark garments you typically used discharge to bleach (remove color from) the shirt and then print over the discharged area with a water based ink once dried?


In essence, yes, and you can also "charge" water base colors with discharge and avoid printing an under base, then the color on top.



EnvyApparel said:


> Through some research I have found the best way to get a really soft hand of bright colors on dark garments is to lay a discharge base and overlay soft hand plastisol (chino base) to prevent fibrillation on ring spun shirts.*
> 
> Has anyone had a good experience with this?*


Yes. It works well.


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