# What's the latest on Stahls Cad-Cut Premium Plus material??



## treadhead (Jul 26, 2006)

It's late and maybe I'm just tired but I can't seem to find any recent information on the status of Stahls Cad-Cut Premium Plus material and the cutting / weeding issues that folks were having with the material when it first came out.

Has there been any resolution to those isues??

Can't seem to find anything...please help.


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## Blue92 (Oct 8, 2010)

My experience so far is that it is very rubber like making weeding a bit more difficult if the design has multiple small objects. The backing is very low/no tack and after an object pulls loose while weeding it can not be placed back in position.

Ran into that while cutting black drop shadows for a design with white text @ 1" tall.

Look and feel of the finished product is good.


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## charles95405 (Feb 1, 2007)

I think that you don't see much about it that is an almost mistake.....maybe a vinyl before it's time. You absolutely need a very sharp blade..cut very slowly and peel carefully. I jumped on and bought three rolls.....never did get my sample!...right now I only use it for large designs without delicate details or small text. I certainly will not order more


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## acca (Jun 25, 2006)

We really like the lower heat requirements, makes pressing onto Sports performance shirts safer. Much less chance of having the dreaded permanent heatpress mark.


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## Blue92 (Oct 8, 2010)

charles95405 said:


> .....never did get my sample!...


Same here. Requested a sample, never received it.

We needed 5 yards of black for a project and thought we'd try the Premium Plus.

I agree that you don't want to use it for anything with a lot of detail work.


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## treadhead (Jul 26, 2006)

Blue92 said:


> My experience so far is that it is very rubber like making weeding a bit more difficult if the design has multiple small objects. The backing is very low/no tack and after an object pulls loose while weeding it can not be placed back in position.
> 
> Ran into that while cutting black drop shadows for a design with white text @ 1" tall.
> 
> Look and feel of the finished product is good.


 
I had the same experience. Been off the forum for a while and was hoping to find some progress being made on the resolution of these issues as I loved the feel and price of the product.


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## treadhead (Jul 26, 2006)

charles95405 said:


> I think that you don't see much about it that is an almost mistake.....maybe a vinyl before it's time. You absolutely need a very sharp blade..cut very slowly and peel carefully. I jumped on and bought three rolls.....never did get my sample!...right now I only use it for large designs without delicate details or small text. I certainly will not order more


Yeah...me to Charles. I bought several rolls and only use them for non-detailed work. Some colors cut fine...others were terrible. The good ones seemed to have a higher pull force required when weeding (tackiness of backing was the same however) which leads me to believe that the adhesive between the vinyl and backing played a roll. A weaker adhesive would allow more movement of the vinyl during cutting resulting in the issues we all experienced. I asked Josh and Nick several times about this and never got an answer.

The fact that there is so much silence about these issues now...after such fanfar during the launch....I think suggests that they know there is a problem but don't have any resolution to it. 

I'm still hoping they come up with a resolution...but we'll just have to wait and see.


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## cornpopps (Jan 8, 2010)

I have less then 8mos expierience with my cutter but I have gotten pretty good results with P+. I ordered a premium blade which I only use for the P+. Small detail I have to weed carefully but I was able to get a script font at 2.5 in tall. I can peel the white film hot but the others so far I do have to wait to cool a bit. Registration on two color have been a issue at times but I just cut the design and position. I like the soft hand low temp and dwell so far just used on Cotton and for Nylon/Poly Canvas type material with success.


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## Blue92 (Oct 8, 2010)

cornpopps said:


> Small detail I have to weed carefully but I was able to get a script font at 2.5 in tall.


The pieces we had an issue with were drop shadows @ 3/8" long and 1/8" wide.

Had no issues with other products at that size. In fact we had secondary orders for some of the items and I used black Thermo Film for those with no problems.


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## stix (Feb 3, 2008)

I ordered some 15 yards based on Josh recommendation. I had nothing but issues because the team end up calling about the numbers and letters falling off. I called their customer service and basically stone walled me. They didnt offer to make it right.. They just wanted me to order more. Here on out I will go back to ordering Thermoflex because I never had an issue.


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## JoshEllsworth (Dec 14, 2005)

Just reading this as I was out at the SGIA trade show. CAD-CUT Premium Plus is being considered/trialed for modifications based on feedback and recommendations. The current product continues to sell very well with most of the business being repeat orders. As soon as we have a changed product to report, I know who has tested this and will certainly send out beta samples. Right now, the only thing we have is the product that you have used. The goal of a revised version is to allow for better detail without comprising the soft feel that everyone seems to like. Will keep you all posted...

As an FYI we've recently lowered the pricing on our Sportfilm Lite product which can accommodate better detail. Sportfilm Lite is now the same price as Premium Plus so it is a good choice until we have new news.

@stix not sure what type of response you received from customer service but when we spoke by the phone I told you we would make it right, if that didn't happen, I'm sorry. If you'd still like to address I'd like to talk with you directly to arrive at a solution. We've had no issues with adhesion of product, only the complaint about cutting fine detail that others are referring to.


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## analandry (May 23, 2011)

I too just bought small samples to try and threw the white away b/c it was just about impossible to weed and pulled away. Moved on to the Sport Film Lite & it was excellent. Good adhesive backing.


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## jean518 (Sep 23, 2009)

Maybe I am the exception to the rule but I have very little trouble with it. I did buy the specialty 45 degree blade and use extra weeding lines. No problem with adhesion. Yes, it is a little particular about some areas but overall not a problem. That is not to say a little more tack would not be appreciated.


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## DBurke (Nov 9, 2011)

i like this product i use more pressure than usual on my plotter to cut sports film lite ..but thats the key to this one. It reminds me of rubber balloon material.Its great for all blends of tshirts. But.... Im working on a bar and grill using stahls sports film lite vinyl and one of the girls actually ripped the vinyl in the chest area..Ive tried 100% cotton and 100% polyester ...the letters also ripple. They request that all the shirts on the girls are tight fitting and they all have different size chests!. Any one know what do i do?


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## jean518 (Sep 23, 2009)

I think they have a stretch vinyl. Might check the website. I think one of them is recommended for stretch situations.


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## DBurke (Nov 9, 2011)

im thinking to try v necks? maybe its not the vinyl its the shirt?


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## ltmccord (May 21, 2010)

I hope someone can help me. I am having Premium Plus peel up after it is down. I have watched every video I can find, reread the instructions sheets, tweaked my settings, am using a Hottronix Heat Press, all to no avail. I am doing exactly what they say to do. Any thoughts? I am making 2 color karate shirts and have completely lost my *** on this deal.


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## JoshEllsworth (Dec 14, 2005)

ltmccord said:


> I hope someone can help me. I am having Premium Plus peel up after it is down. I have watched every video I can find, reread the instructions sheets, tweaked my settings, am using a Hottronix Heat Press, all to no avail. I am doing exactly what they say to do. Any thoughts? I am making 2 color karate shirts and have completely lost my *** on this deal.


Is it peeling up after laundered or when removing the backing? Also, what fabric is the karate shirts and do they have any protective coatings/treatments?

If you need an urgent response feel free to call me directly as well at 724-583-0309 and we can post a resolution here after we arrive at it.


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## dancebling (Jul 14, 2009)

Any news? I brought rolls of the material before conducting a t-shirt forum research and I am having similar issues.


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## sudrust (Dec 4, 2012)

I did some soccer team practice jerseys (A4) with it, and nearly every one failed after 2-3 washes. I re-applied a few, only to have them fail again. Switched out to SportFilm, so far so good. Turned my rolls in to Stahl QC for review (and account credit) and haven't heard a word in two months.  I HAVE used PP on 50/50 tees with fine results.


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## stix (Feb 3, 2008)

As I mentioned years ago in this thread.. It failed.. I lost a client and user error (me) was blamed..
I did get an offer for a discount to retry... laughable


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## drdoct (Jul 26, 2011)

I am slowly working through mine. I like having every color and it's helped that I'm not too deep in it (sheets, not rolls). I did some pink the other day and noticed that I had to peel cold instead of hot. I'm hoping it doesn't come back after a few washes and that it was just the peel right after. I've never encountered that before with PP so hopefully it sticks. I love the feel of it but weeding is the problem. It's always been the problem. I guess they can't get whoever makes it for them to change over to a sticky backing. Chemica makes an easy weeding vinyl that if anything, is softer and more pliable (thinner) than PP and it's on a sticky backing which makes it great. Who knows why they won't switch. I've been pretty let down by what I view as indifference towards real help on this. If they really cared about the customer then they would quit listing it as pressure sensitive backing on their website AND post a little warning about doing detailed cutting with it. I think it's cool and everything that some of their people are here to help out and promote their products, but a very small percentage of people who buy from them are members here. I only hope that google searches turn up the problems with premium plus and educate people before they buy without the knowledge of the problems surrounding this product. 

I think they'd sell less if they made changes to their website, but I bet they wouldn't have as many ticked off (one time) customers too.


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## Nick Horvath (Feb 26, 2010)

sudrust said:


> I did some soccer team practice jerseys (A4) with it, and nearly every one failed after 2-3 washes. I re-applied a few, only to have them fail again. Switched out to SportFilm, so far so good. Turned my rolls in to Stahl QC for review (and account credit) and haven't heard a word in two months.  I HAVE used PP on 50/50 tees with fine results.


Please PM me with your account info and I will look up all of this for you.


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## Nick Horvath (Feb 26, 2010)

drdoct said:


> I am slowly working through mine. I like having every color and it's helped that I'm not too deep in it (sheets, not rolls). I did some pink the other day and noticed that I had to peel cold instead of hot. I'm hoping it doesn't come back after a few washes and that it was just the peel right after. I've never encountered that before with PP so hopefully it sticks. I love the feel of it but weeding is the problem. It's always been the problem. I guess they can't get whoever makes it for them to change over to a sticky backing. Chemica makes an easy weeding vinyl that if anything, is softer and more pliable (thinner) than PP and it's on a sticky backing which makes it great. Who knows why they won't switch. I've been pretty let down by what I view as indifference towards real help on this. If they really cared about the customer then they would quit listing it as pressure sensitive backing on their website AND post a little warning about doing detailed cutting with it. I think it's cool and everything that some of their people are here to help out and promote their products, but a very small percentage of people who buy from them are members here. I only hope that google searches turn up the problems with premium plus and educate people before they buy without the knowledge of the problems surrounding this product.
> 
> I think they'd sell less if they made changes to their website, but I bet they wouldn't have as many ticked off (one time) customers too.


Some colors will peel warmer than other colors. This does not effect the final application, so do not worry.

I am sorry that you feel we have shown indifference towards this product, but that is not the case. We have determined that you need to slow your machine down, and use a sharp blade due to the "rubbery" nature of the Premium Plus. Also we list line thickness recommendations on all of our tech sheets. 

For high detail cutting I would recommend Fashion Film, Super Film or Sports Film Lite.

Please let me know how we can help you.


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## Knehmer (May 6, 2007)

Seems crazy that we should have to use different settings...cutting or pressing...for different colors of the same product. I love the way this stuff looks and feels but I just cut, successfully a design in white. Tried to do same design, same cutter, in black and it won't cut...this is bizarre.


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## Blue92 (Oct 8, 2010)

Knehmer said:


> Seems crazy that we should have to use different settings...cutting or pressing...for different colors of the same product. I love the way this stuff looks and feels but I just cut, successfully a design in white. Tried to do same design, same cutter, in black and it won't cut...this is bizarre.


Same issue I had last fall.

Had about 12 yards of black with 6" and 8" numbers and lettering that was not useable. 

Red and white cut fine.


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## Knehmer (May 6, 2007)

Funny, that's exactly what I am cutting...can't get any simpler but it won't work on black


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## treadhead (Jul 26, 2006)

Knehmer said:


> Seems crazy that we should have to use different settings...cutting or pressing...for different colors of the same product. I love the way this stuff looks and feels but I just cut, successfully a design in white. Tried to do same design, same cutter, in black and it won't cut...this is bizarre.


This is exactly the problem I found....some colors would weed fine...then I would switch colors...perform the test cut....then run the exact same design on a different color and it would weed terrible. I can't remember which colors were bad / good anymore as it was over a year ago...would have to go back a look at my notes.  So, no disrespect intended to Nick or Josh but to say you provide recommended settings is a bit unhelpful when the results vary so drastically from one color to another.


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## Nick Horvath (Feb 26, 2010)

No disrespect taken. 

If you are unhappy with the product, we are happy to take a return and offer you one of our vinyls that has a tacky backing such as Fashion Film. 

Depending on how long you have had the product we would need to talk about it, but I'm sure we could come to some type of discount on new product.

It's all about preference and some people just do not like working with a rubbery product with a non tack backing. Some customers love it and keep ordering and some like yourselves do not like it. We understand, and just want to help make you happy with us.


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## Knehmer (May 6, 2007)

Nick, you missed the point...having to change settings for the same design, same cutter, same product, but DIFFERENT color is the issue.


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## dancebling (Jul 14, 2009)

I experienced the same "different results with different colors". The white PP performed wonderfully - BUT the item has only been laundered once - so here is hoping...

the black - different experience - the weeding is horrendous. BUT I have not re-cut a design (as Nick suggested) using recommended settings and a brand new blade - so the jury is still out. My current blade is less than 5 months old, with limited use. I do hope that using the recommended settings produces different results because I agree with everyone else - the look and feel of this product is great. But I am very reluctant to offer it to customers with current product instability

Nick... if I still experience a problem after I re-cut according to recommendations - I will contact you.

The glitter flake is absolutely fantasic. Cuts and weeds well as well as retains look and glitter after several launderings


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## Knehmer (May 6, 2007)

Nick, I get the feeling you are overlooking our posts regarding the different procedures for different colors we have discussed recently on this thread. Why? Sincerely hope it's not intention, but sorry to say, I believe it is. I'd like to see why it should be "justifiable" that in a production environment we should have to change things up for a certain color...I definitely undertand changing for an entirely different product, but having to change things for a different color is completely bizarre.


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## Nick Horvath (Feb 26, 2010)

Knehmer said:


> Nick, I get the feeling you are overlooking our posts regarding the different procedures for different colors we have discussed recently on this thread. Why? Sincerely hope it's not intention, but sorry to say, I believe it is. I'd like to see why it should be "justifiable" that in a production environment we should have to change things up for a certain color...I definitely undertand changing for an entirely different product, but having to change things for a different color is completely bizarre.


I assure you that no posts are being overlooked. Previously to Premium Plus we have always recommended a test cut when changing colors of the same material. It is not uncommon for different colors of the same material to behave slightly different in regards to cutting and weeding.

That said we have always been willing to accept material back for testing if it seems like it is defective. With the Premium Plus we even had (and still have to some extent) a money back guarantee.

We realize that not everyone will love Premium Plus. Many people do, however. We have many other products to offer. If a tacky carrier is important to you for instance, we have Fashion Film and Sports Film Lite.


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## Knehmer (May 6, 2007)

I'm willing to bet you don't have this issue, amongst colors, with any other materials...and I have never heard of it with any companies brand of materials either. You also indicated, and I have experienced, that the "peel" time might vary as well. How is someone supposed to work in a production environment with these variables??? I KNOW that I don't have to buy your product...I'm just trying to figure out how a company can justify these hair-pulling variables within a specific product line and still sell it. I like Stahl's and buy many of your products... But I have never heard of such variables within a specific product.


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## stix (Feb 3, 2008)

It my case... it was nothing to send back, I used all of the product on the jerseys.. Like I said I lost out all the way around.


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## treadhead (Jul 26, 2006)

Nick Horvath said:


> It is not uncommon for different colors of the same material to behave slightly different in regards to cutting and weeding.


Nick...I'm sorry but I have to agree here. Just read your response. What is being described here is not SLIGHTLY different behavior differences between colors. I did the test cuts.....they were good....but when you tried to cut the material...especially in sharp corners....it was HORRIBLE on certain colors while it weeded GREAT on others. And I did all the settings recommended...changed the blade, speeds, forces, cutting strip, angles, offsets, how far the blade projected and nothing seemed to help much. Yes....your recommendations worked better and made marginal product "workable". But lets face it...the real problem is not settings or operator error in most cases...it is the material.

Why do you guys keep "covering" for the obvious deficiencies in this product? Either you guys are completely clueless....and I honestly don't believe that because I truly believe you and Josh are smart and innovative guys OR this is a political cover for somebody who staked a lot on the success of this product. I've seen this way too many times in my past career as a product development engineer / quality engineer and project engineer.

Listen...I won't pretend to know your product or process but it seems obvious to me that the adhesion between the stretchy material and the backing is insufficient to keep the material in place during the cutting process. I don't really think it has much to do with the tacky backing talked about because I noticed there to be a large difference in the amount of effort required to pull the material from the carrier during weeding between the good and bad performers. The good performers required more effort to release the material from the carrier.....the bad performers released quite easily which explains why the material moves during cutting. In both cases....the tackiness of the carrier appeared to be the same. I've mentioned this to you before with no response. I didn't expect one with all that you were dealing with but I also didn't expect the problem to not be resolved to this day. 

Maybe the material coming out now is better and much of this discussion is regarding old batches of material. But who is going to take the risk of trying new material once burned and with the vague and irrational explanations we are getting? I have no confidence that this problem has been resolved.

Nick...again....I mean no disrespect towards you and Josh but whether you admit it or are at liberty to admit it this material has not lived up to the hype. Just the fact that it is dubbed to be a pressure sensitive carrier with no warning of the many problems seems suspicious. There is a big disconnect between what the "hope" was for this material and the reality. Perhaps the realities of production constraints and material properties make resolution of this problem impossible without spending lots of $$$. 

If SportsFilm Lite is so similar and now at the same cost...why not offer it in the same variety of colors as Premium Plus and get rid of Premium Plus and all the headaches and move on? You've got many awesome products and you can't always hit a home run. But you can get back in the batters box and try again.


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## jasonsmith (Mar 30, 2011)

Why not make some samples of the premium plus with a good tacky carrier to see if this helps solve the problems of it not cutting right, or having to have special settings and dedicated blade?

I like a tacky carrier as it makes weeding small detail easier as less chance of something pulling up and ruining a cut.


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## treadhead (Jul 26, 2006)

I agree Jason...I prefer the tacky feel personally..just lots easier when things pull up.


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## JoshEllsworth (Dec 14, 2005)

Thank you all for the feedback on this product. We obviously realize that we've missed the mark for a lot of users with Premium Plus. We are and have been in active conversations about how to address the problem. Currently we are weighing the options. Those using Premium Plus successfully are utilizing Roland GX-24 cutters or better with premium blades (carbide) or using laser cutting equipment. I understand not everyone owns this type of equipment and consequently we have to address the issues. While a tackier carrier provides moderate improvement it has not addressed the issue in full which is why we haven't launched or beta tested it. 

The Sportfilm Lite or the Fashion Film are still our best solutions and come at similar prices with the features desired. We are currently experimenting with a slight tackier Sportfilm Lite, called Sportfilm Extra in Europe. So far the feedback is good. Once I have a US direction or samples to beta test, you all will be the first to know. In the meantime, sincere apologies and thanks for your continued interest. 

Good suggestion on more colors in Sportfilm Lite. Once we decide on a long term version of it, that is a great option. It is not as matte of a finish and as stretchy as Premium Plus, but then again that seems to be the issue for some. Many sportswear manufacturers are using Premium Plus successfully. While the reorder rate is relatively low comparatively speaking, those using it successfully have generated many, many invoices across a wide range of colors. No excuses, we're honestly trying to figure it out and suggest alternatives the best we can to address everyone's needs. 

For those interested in a sample of Fashion Film, I will have an online sample link up within the next couple days for you to request a sample sheet to cut and weed. It is very tacky, thin and matte.

Sincere apologies and thanks for all of the suggestions.


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## Blue92 (Oct 8, 2010)

Josh,

I'm one of the folks that had issues with the Premium Plus black. Had no problems with white and red we did at the same sitting.

We do use a fair amount of SportFilm Lite (I actually prefer the tackier backing) but for some of what we do this is a killer:

From the Application Tips:
*SportFilm Lite is not recommended for two-color application.*

We were doing about 150 of these....


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## JoshEllsworth (Dec 14, 2005)

Blue92 said:


> Josh,
> 
> I'm one of the folks that had issues with the Premium Plus black. Had no problems with white and red we did at the same sitting.
> 
> ...


Yes, totally understand. We are working to correct this or isolate it to a few colors that are having the multi-color issue with air bubbles.


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## Knehmer (May 6, 2007)

Good to hear from you Josh...I personally felt that Nick answers were not taking responsibility but yours do! I feel much better now!


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## JoshEllsworth (Dec 14, 2005)

Knehmer said:


> Good to hear from you Josh...I personally felt that Nick answers were not taking responsibility but yours do! I feel much better now!


Thanks the comment. In fairness to Nick, he has been doing his best to respond with the information he has. His lack of taking responsibility I'm sure isn't intentional...its just my job to communicate our overall direction to you as I'm having those conversations with management. Appreciate you sticking with us. Plan to be more frequent and fast with updates.


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## JoshEllsworth (Dec 14, 2005)

To all interested, here is the sample request link for Fashion Film: CAD-CUT® Fashion-FILM Sample Request 

You will receive a sample sheet to cut, an applied sample and a brochure detailing our current price promotion.


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## treadhead (Jul 26, 2006)

Josh.....thanks for the response and feedbback. I still have some Premium Plus that has worked very well for me.....I will have to go back and check the colors. When the product worked....it was AWESOME...everything it was supposed to be. 

My big frustratioin was when changing colors and it was the worst stuff I've ever used. That seemed to suggest to me process variation....maybe something not even related to the color of the product rather than which color happened to be running when the variation occured in the process. 

I still believe it is highly likely that you've resolved this variation and that the difference between colors (batches) only exists on old stock which may still be in the system. Of course...I don't know this which is one of my hesitations of reordering any more material...even the current colors that are working well......as stated above....it may not actually be color dependant.

I continue to be a fan of Stahls product and just recently ordered some Glitter Flex material...and will be ordering more soon. One thing...off topic...I would like to get is a sample swatch of the different colors for the Glitter Flex. i've got every other product but that one which doesn't seem to be an option in the drop down menu on the website.

Again...it was good to see you responding and updating on the progress of this material.


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## oneeyedjack (Mar 7, 2007)

Hi,

We are doing dancewear orders with 95/5 cotton/spandex and was going to use Premium plus until I started reading on here that there are some issues with it. What is the latest info on the Premium plus, are the problems worked out. Appreciate any info. Thanks.


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## JoshEllsworth (Dec 14, 2005)

oneeyedjack said:


> Hi,
> 
> We are doing dancewear orders with 95/5 cotton/spandex and was going to use Premium plus until I started reading on here that there are some issues with it. What is the latest info on the Premium plus, are the problems worked out. Appreciate any info. Thanks.


Premium Plus will work just fine for that application. Would recommend staying away from fine detailed images and dedicating a sharp blade to cutting. We have many active, long term users of the product.


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## animarket (Jul 8, 2010)

JoshEllsworth said:


> Premium Plus will work just fine for that application. Would recommend staying away from fine detailed images and dedicating a sharp blade to cutting. We have many active, long term users of the product.


I wanted to give a December 2013 update of premium plus. There is still a slight difference in Black and White, for example, but I am not using much black, so I will address what I know.

I ordered 25 yards of white in early December. I filled a bunch of orders early on, and then ordered another 20 yards. I will say, for the designs I am cutting, the White PP has been fantastic! I was using Siser Easy Weed before and will say the Easy Weed is good for intricate designs (due to the sticky backing), and it has a nice soft hand. 

However, my designs are mostly large text and minimal graphics, and when you have to fulfill a lot of shirt orders in a day, the Siser easy weed would be impossible. It is so sticky that it slows the process way down when you are trying to get orders out quick, and cut down production time.

The White PP did not pull up at all on my designs, and was easy to weed. It also looked very nice on the shirts.

Now, after all that, my most recent batch of 25 yards (White) was different. So, before I reserve judgment, i will wait to hear back from Stahls on that. I bragged so much about the ease of doing those December orders, that I will wait and see on the recent roll I ordered and used. 

I will keep you posted.

Oh, and BTW, I respect Josh and all that he has to offer in this business. I have watched a couple dozen of JEllsworth instructional videos early on. But as far as blades and cutting, etc. I just use a little old USCutter GC721. It's a chinese cutter I bought on eBay a couple years ago. I hated the Signblazer software it came with, and had initially had problems with the cutter. But once I figured it out, it is still working like a champ.

I set the blade (in the digital settings) to a setting that works, depending on the thickness of the vinyl. I have been through one blade, and am on my second. No problems at all. It cuts anything I need. So, I am not saying that blade issues, and cutting depth are not a problem. But with this cutter. It's kind of 'set it and forget it'. I will upgrade to a Roland before long...but I am waiting on the tires to go flat on this UScutter.

BR


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## animarket (Jul 8, 2010)

Oh and by the way Josh. For this new lil t-shirt gig I have going with the white vinyl, I really would like to give Spectra Eco a try. On Imprintables, the shipping is about $6 more (25y x 15" vs. 25y x 20") and per square foot, the vinyl is more than PP. You guys have any wholesale pricing or discount pricing by chance? It's also hard to beat Stahls 2nd day free upgrade if I need the vinyl quick. Just checking.

Thanks,

BR


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