# Printing With White Ink



## GRH (Apr 25, 2007)

I am not posting this with any particular manufacture in mind but the industry as a whole.

I am posting this for prospective buyers and for those that are already printing white ink so that they will take a look at what they are doing.

IMHO the sub $30,000 printer manufactures and their ink manufactures have figured out how to print with white ink. They have not figured out how to do it at a level that is acceptable and or profitable for most people.

Yes, with these printers you can get a nice looking print that is reasonably wash fast if you can put up with the pretreatment square that may go away after a couple of washes.

The pretreatment process is absolutely unacceptable, it is time consuming and inconsistent. If you plan on buying one of these machines plan on scraping 50 shirts and several hundred dollars in ink trying to figure out the pretreatment process. The price of pretreatment is insane at $100 per gallon.

Ink costs for printing white ink are astronomical. You can figure $2 to $6 per print averaging $3 to $4. You can double this figure if you are printing 2 sides of the shirt.

Most of these printers will print white shirts using CMYK inks only at a rate of about 20 to 30 per hour. If you are doing the same print with white ink production drops to about 6 or 7 shirts per hour or 1/2 that if you are printing 2 sides.

If you don't count your labor and other overheads, and you sell at retail you can trick yourself into thinking that you are making money printing with white ink.

The manufactures seem to be happy with the situation as it stands at this time. I have heard no rumors that a new improved process is in the works. Everyone needs to understand that the process of printing white ink with these machines as it is today is totally unacceptable. Yes, you can do it but why would any one want to work for free (best case) or at a loss. I can get all the free work I want with out spending $20,000 on a printer.

I am not very smart because I have been printing with white ink now for over a year and just recently figured out that I am slowly loosing money doing it. I feel like I am slowly sinking into a *white ink hole.*


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## Justin Walker (Dec 6, 2006)

Well said!  I don't suppose you have any pictures of dark garments you have printed?


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## zhenjie (Aug 27, 2006)

I agree with you 100% GRH.

I dont think the manufacturers are really concerned with white ink developments as much as they should be. They aren't like us who rely on these DTG machines working and printing efficiently in the real world. I think the main thing they care about is selling the machines and promoting all of its benefits and few if any of their disadvantages (such as white ink). Its akin to a cars salemens trying to sell a fast sports car by promoting all its 'cool' stuff but not mentioning it needs a service every day and has poor gas milage.

Sometimes I feel sorry for people who have recently bought DTG and not realising how much of an issue white ink printing is. I hope one day White ink will progress to a point where pretreating is no longer neccessary or at least more consistent.

Its disappointing to hear that the only white ink development is one that is more settle resistant (read: it still settles but at a slower rate). I think pre-treatment should be the biggest issue at hand the ink and DTG manufacturers should tackle.


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## binki (Jul 16, 2006)

I would say the biggest problem is less the ink/pretreat but the training that you get is really not up to par. One day to learn everything, and not even a full day, we started after 8am and finished at 2pm with a 1 hour lunch in the middle. IMO it just was not enough nor was it comprehensive. Even the training video isn't complete which is a shame.


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## vctradingcubao (Nov 15, 2006)

Given the very high cost of printing white inks, May I ask what machine will give you the lowest cost when printing white inks? I noted that the Kornit, DTG, and the Mimaki use different process to do this.


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## zhenjie (Aug 27, 2006)

vctradingcubao said:


> Given the very high cost of printing white inks, May I ask what machine will give you the lowest cost when printing white inks? I noted that the Kornit, DTG, and the Mimaki use different process to do this.


In terms of ink cost I think Kornit would be the lowest. All the other DTG brands use Dupoint white ink which has NOT reduced its pricing like R&H has recently. 

Mimaki uses discharge printing so not very comparable to white ink and I'm not sure of the cost of discharge though. Could be fairly cheap if its similar to screenprinting.


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## GRH (Apr 25, 2007)

Justin,

I made this post to give the manufacture reps a little slap on the chin and to get them to understand that all is not well in the white ink world. Their sales of these machines are going to slow down when the word gets out that it is very difficult to make a profit running these machines printing white ink.

I will try to post a picture or two in the next day or so.

zhenjie,

What you say is true. The new less-settling white recently released by one of the manufactures was a complete failure. It has sense been discontinued and the old formula ink is being reinstated.

Binki,

The pretreatment process as it stands today is an art form. Unfortunately it requires trial and error and can't be taught in a one day class.

vctradingcubao and zhenjie,

Yes, most of these printers use Dupont ink and this could be the problem. Dupont is a giant company and garment printer ink is just a drop in the bucket to them. They, like General Motors in the 1970's are probably arrogant and will tell the customer what they are going to buy. I would like to see the printer manufactures throw their apples into another basket. Find a company that will work with them and develop an inking system that works, is affordable and constant. As long as the printer people can sell machines I doubt that anything will change as far as white ink goes although there is a door open for one of the printer manufactures to jump way ahead of the pack (a white ink system that works and is affordable).

If Dupont has lowered the price of ink I haven't seen it reflected by my suppliers of ink in the last year or so.

Regards,
GRH


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## zhenjie (Aug 27, 2006)

Ooops, I was meant to say Dupoint has NOT reduced its white ink pricing like R&H.


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## GRH (Apr 25, 2007)

zhenjie,

Sorry I misread your post.

Regards,
GRH


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## zoom_monster (Sep 20, 2006)

GRH, 
I understand the frustration. I got into this, fully informed, reading between the lines knowing full well that this dark thing was the great holy grail, that white ink is still a iffy prospect price wise. I did not believe the prodution costs as I was quoted. The cost projections always seem to fall short onpaying the opperator... I had to see for my self. I print lights, price according to my costs, I print Darks according to my costs. My customer makes a choice based on price. I spent the first month of my machine ownership, just running experiments, Measuring ink, time and PITA factors. In a lot of ways I'm still figuring out. I print a job, evaluate and adjust, as each day brings new challanges. I try to steer people towards what I know will work for them and give them afordable choices. I totally agree, it's too expensive, takes too long, it's a pain, but I can offer my clients other options if they want to pay the price. I'm starting where I can, with an relatively inexpensive machine (can't afford the Kornit yet), but I also have faith that the people that make these machines are looking for better solutions, so they can one-up the other guy. You see it at the show with all the prototypes. Perhaps Dupont is too big to care. I think you will see smaller chem companies, or even machine manufactures who will get into that arm of the business. Look what Kornit has done. I know I'm just a dreamer, but I'm not the only one (sorry it just came out.....) I'm sticking it out, because it's just so darn fun.


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## vctradingcubao (Nov 15, 2006)

Ian, what type of printer are you using?


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## zoom_monster (Sep 20, 2006)

Byron, I'm using an Anajet.


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## GRH (Apr 25, 2007)

zoom monster,

Keep the faith. When they figure out the white ink process the the world will truly *be one. *

Regards,
GRH


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## zhenjie (Aug 27, 2006)

I think another issue with white ink development is that Kornit already have a patent on the process they use. So IF they find that the DTG competitors are closing in on their process & technology they might start using that patent right to their advantage.


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## csquared (Sep 8, 2006)

zhenjie I have read about this "patent" but do you know exactly what it entails?


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## zhenjie (Aug 27, 2006)

csquared said:


> zhenjie I have read about this "patent" but do you know exactly what it entails?


This is the patent that has been approved Kornit Patent



> Abstract
> 
> A method and apparatus for color printing on a dark textile piece, the method including the steps of digitally applying a white ink layer directly onto a textile piece, optionally curing the white ink layer, and digitally printing a colored image on said ink layer.



According to a press-release, they have a few more patents pending which my guess is to do with the more mechanical side of things.


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## zoom_monster (Sep 20, 2006)

zhenjie, 
Thanks for posting that. It would be interesting to hear one of the manufaturers or ink makers response to this. This is very interesting.


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## csquared (Sep 8, 2006)

from my understanding the Kornit does not cure the white ink before the color is applied. 

Odd how you can patten something that is as obvious as that and that has been used in screen printing for who knows how long. It would be interesting to see them actually try and stop someone with that patten.


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## zoom_monster (Sep 20, 2006)

Those slick B-tards patented not the underlay but the fact that is is being printed via inkjet.....which _is_ the "new" concept. In the the text of the patent, I also see where they are mensioning the concept in relation to transfers as well as direct to garment. I wonder what will come of all of this....royalty payments to Kornit by the ink manufaturers....by the Inkjet "modifiers" and/or worse: cease and desist orders from Kornit.


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## csquared (Sep 8, 2006)

or b. none of the above


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## zoom_monster (Sep 20, 2006)

csquared said:


> or b. none of the above


Amen to that.... but it does sound like they have better lawyers... so THATS why their machines are more...


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