# vapor apparel and press marks - shiny box on backcountry colors



## Susie (Oct 19, 2007)

Is anyone dye-subbing Vapor Apparel tees?

I have been using the burnt orange and grey Backcountry tees and there is a shiny box where the platen covers the shirt. I cover my tee on top with paper.

Some people say light pressure, lower temp, longer time. Some say less time, higher temp, more pressure.

If I don't press hard enough or long enough or hot enough, most of my ink stays on the paper and the image is dull, especially on large dark areas.

Is there any way to get more of the ink on the shirt and not get the shiny box?

Thanks - waiting for help, before giving up with these!!


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## Lnfortun (Feb 18, 2006)

Susie said:


> Is anyone dye-subbing Vapor Apparel tees?
> 
> I have been using the burnt orange and grey Backcountry tees and there is a shiny box where the platen covers the shirt. I cover my tee on top with paper.
> 
> ...


Sublimation dye needs long dwell time for the chemical to sublimate in the polyester fiber. It is normal to see most of the ink on the release paper. The ink you see in the paper is just the carrier dye. Make sure you use good quality release paper. Plain paper is not the best for sublimation. There is a soft pad made by Vapor Apparel to eliminate the effect of press mark as claimed by Vapor Apparel. The Paper Ranch sells the soft pad.


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## Susie (Oct 19, 2007)

Thanks for the input! I don't have press lines, but the whole press shape is definitely lighter and shinier than the rest of the shirt. I use a high release paper recommended by Sawgrass and sold through Starline. I'm not sure which brand it is though. The bigger darker areas look "patchy" as if some of the ink never got to the shirt. When I did large dark areas on Vapor hoodies I simply pressed them for a long time and if the print ended up "patchy" I just pressed it again and it was fine, but then that material is much thicker and can withstand it.

If I use a longer dwell time do I need a lower temperature then? These thin, coloured shirts are kind of frustrating.

Thanks.


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## plan b (Feb 21, 2007)

If you are having this problem one thing you can do and it works great is raise the image so that the platen doesn't touch the fabric or if it does there is little to no pressure on it.


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## plan b (Feb 21, 2007)

Whoops Luis I didn't see that in your reply,, I'm with Luis on this one


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## Lnfortun (Feb 18, 2006)

Susie said:


> If I use a longer dwell time do I need a lower temperature then? These thin, coloured shirts are kind of frustrating.
> 
> Thanks.


I would say yes. When you raise the dwell time it would be better to lower the temp just enough that the ink will still sublimate. Cut up the release paper in small pieces especially the problimatic image and test each small piece with different setting on a scrap shirt.

Please let us know when you find the solution. Good luck.

Planb, it is alright by me. I do it sometime then find out that it was already covered.


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## D.Evo. (Mar 31, 2006)

Suzie, you didn't mention what are the settings you are currently using that give you this shiny square?

From my experience printing on Vapor: excessive pressure and temperature are the biggest causes of shine because the fabric's texture gets altered - flattened too much or scorched. 

If you have some ruined shirts I'd suggest cutting them into pieces and using for tests - print out several copies of the same design and press them onto the swatches one at a time with various temperature, time and pressure variations. Write down the result and find that combination of settings that works for you the best.

I'm pressing the BackCountry shirts at 195 C, medium/light pressure for 60 sec - with no shine. I'm using a Teflon pillow insert and Teflon sheet over the print.

For micro performance shirts I'm dropping temperature to 180 C and increase the dwell time.

These setting work for me perfectly every time, but other people printing on Vapor will give you different numbers - i.e. common practice is 200 C for 45 sec on medium pressure. 

With dye sub you'll have to be prepared to experiment a little as different substrates and fabrics may require some tweaking of your settings to achieve the best results. 
To me, it's not a reason to give up, more like having fun perfecting my skills


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## Susie (Oct 19, 2007)

I used a couple of different settings, pretty much what D.Evo mentioned. I usually put a piece of paper on top of the tee but I didn't use a teflon sheet on top with this particular type of shirt. I used to use teflon on top - maybe I'll try that again with these Backcountry shirts.

Yeah, it almost looks like it can't take the heat. I tried it at 200 for 50 secs on the front and 195 on the back for 50 secs. I don't have this problem with Hanes and the hoodies. Probably they're just way thicker and can handle the pressure and heat.

Maybe I need to have hardly any pressure at all. I know the dark ink takes longer to set, but I'm afraid if I do it too long, I'll just scorch the thing.

What I did is I ordered some white Vapor basic tee fabric by the metre to test on. I did test with different settings and it seemed to work perfectly. But that fabric seems thicker than the Backcountry ones. Or maybe white is just more forgiving because you simply can't see any lighter box. I'll have to do some more tests with the Backcountry stuff.

Thanks everyone. By the way, my customers just love that Backcountry collection - I do too. I think they're super comfy to wear and work in.

Susie


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## jpkevin (Oct 22, 2007)

Hi Susie,

Vapor has a foam kit available. You get 13.5 square feet of the foam, and three practice shirts. They suggest lowering the temp to 380-390 degrees F, and press for 45-50 seconds. With the foam you don't have to use very much pressure, as the foam keeps the shirt pressed against the transfer paper..


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## Susie (Oct 19, 2007)

Thanks for the tip Kevin. I placed my last order with Johnson Plastics and I was extremely pleased with the service and product. Very helpful people.

I will order that kit from JP. (I suppose you have it). 

I was wondering as far as press lines go - why don't heat press manufacturers round off the edges of the platen and round the rubber pad on the bottom away from each other. Wouldn't that help?


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## jpkevin (Oct 22, 2007)

That is what the foam allows you to do. You cut the foam edges at an angle. It will make sense when you get the kit. The instructions with it are very good, and it is nice to get the three practice shirts also. Thanks for the kind words. We do appreciate your business. Feel free to call if you have questions.


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## azballbusters (Jan 8, 2008)

Susie,

I will be curious if you figure it out as we always had the same issue with the Vapor Tera Mesa color shirt. It has nothing to do with the print lines as you stated in fact we used a 14 x 24 press and used 17x26" paper to rid ourselves of press lines but the shine we never resolved. We just do not offer the Tera Mesa shirt anymore.


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## Susie (Oct 19, 2007)

That's exactly it Azball. 
It seems to be the Vapor Terra Mesa color shirt that does this. I don't really have "presslines" per se. The heat seems to affect the dye or whatever in this particular shirt and turns it lighter than all the rest of the shirt. Even at 190 with hardly any pressure you get a light coloured box. Not just an outline - the entire shape of the press is visible.

I'll keep trying though, because I like this colour but it's not something that I could give to a customer at this point.

I appreciate everyone's input. This forum is great!!!


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## azballbusters (Jan 8, 2008)

I have tried everything and had little luck and agree it is a great color and a unique color. The issue is the results looks like a heat transfer because of the change in fabric in the rectangle shape of the heat press.

Keep me posted if you have success.



Susie said:


> That's exactly it Azball.
> It seems to be the Vapor Terra Mesa color shirt that does this. I don't really have "presslines" per se. The heat seems to affect the dye or whatever in this particular shirt and turns it lighter than all the rest of the shirt. Even at 190 with hardly any pressure you get a light coloured box. Not just an outline - the entire shape of the press is visible.
> 
> I'll keep trying though, because I like this colour but it's not something that I could give to a customer at this point.
> ...


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## DAGuide (Oct 2, 2006)

FYI - Chris from Vapor Apparel wrote an article in this month's Printwear Magazine that talks about removing press lines and a couple of other sublimation tips. Here is the link to the digital magazine - Printwear - August 2008. Page 78 I believe. Hope this link works.


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## Susie (Oct 19, 2007)

Just an update,

I have to order more backcountry shirts but I did wash and dry the Terra Mesa a couple of times and the shiny box area doesn't go away after laundering.


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## azballbusters (Jan 8, 2008)

Susie said:


> Just an update,
> 
> I have to order more backcountry shirts but I did wash and dry the Terra Mesa a couple of times and the shiny box area doesn't go away after laundering.


I would guess this is a known issue since none of the distributors or Vapor has chimed in with an answer.


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## Susie (Oct 19, 2007)

Yeah, I was kind of thinking there was some magical trick with these, but I think this colour is simply unsuitable for heat applications.

Has anyone else out there actually successfully printed a Terra Mesa Vapor tee? 

By the way, does the green do the same thing? I haven't tried it yet, but just wondered if that was the same story.

Thanks for your input.


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## guest29928 (Mar 30, 2008)

azballbusters said:


> I would guess this is a known issue since none of the distributors or Vapor has chimed in with an answer.


Isn't Johnson Plastics a distributor? They replied.


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## Susie (Oct 19, 2007)

BareApparel said:


> Isn't Johnson Plastics a distributor? They replied.


 
Yes, but I'm not sure they know the quirks of that particular colour.

I have a couple more in stock now, so I'll try again, I guess.


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## Susie (Oct 19, 2007)

I've done some testing on the Backcountry "stone" colour (or whatever it's called - like a light beige).

I was still getting the shiny box, though not as noticable as it is a lighter colour, but it is there.

It seems obvious to me now that this is a heat issue - I suppose that makes sense! More pressure and a longer dwell don't make a shiny box but the temperature sure does.

I put the temp down to 190 and the shiny box is just barely visible but I have to press it a long time - like twice as long but the image isn't as vivid as it could be because of the lower temp. (and I can't use too much pressure). 

It does make a passable product in general but I like _perfection. _But then again, perfection and sublimation don't really go together, at least not for me yet


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## D.Evo. (Mar 31, 2006)

Hi Susie and Mark, I’ve “chimed in” with a few general suggestions earlier in this thread as a printer and distributor of Vapor Apparel 

I’m sorry I can’t offer you an immediate solution on how to avoid shine and discoloration on Terra Mesa because I never had these issues.

I have printed quite a few Terra Mesa t-shirts - for clients and for myself (in my household they are the boys' favourite and I wear them too occasionally). 
I also successfully print on green, blue and all the other Back Country colours. The only shine issue I ever had with Vapor was too much pressure on micro performance shirts.

As I suggested earlier in this thread I would recommend to sacrifice a shirt, cut it into pieces and experiment some more with settings. 

A couple of things to consider:
- Sometimes platen could be hotter/colder than it shows on temperature indicator - digital thermometer is a good tool to check it.
- What paper are you using? From my observations, under the same pressure thicker transfer paper “compresses”/flattens the fabric more than the thinner kind. When you press the design – is your paper same size/bigger than the platen? Try cutting your image very close and see if there is any difference. 
- Teflon sheet is important.


Susie, how long is your dwell time when you drop the temperature down?

Don’t worry, perfection will come with practice   Just stick to it and it will happen!


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## Susie (Oct 19, 2007)

I did cut up a some yardage of basic white Vapor tee material and tested first but I always cut it smaller than the press and of course, wouldn't see any "box". Especially on white. It's not so much about a box really - I would say it's a big SHINY area. It's definitely shiny compared to the rest. I'll try Terra Mesa again as soon as I have it available.

But I do suspect my platen temperature is not accurately represented by the gauge. I should get a thermometer and test it out. I'm kind of curious. Although when I do the Hanes tees at 204 for 40 seconds they come out beautifully, but that doesn't really tell me the temp. but that is the recommended setting so I thought, it can't be TOO far out....

The paper I am using seems quite thick (although it's the _only _dye sub paper I've ever seen). The name says it's "Star" brand distributed by Starline Pacific and endorsed by Sawgrass. I'm using an Epson 7800 with Evolution RIP and need a high release paper I'm told. Maybe you know what the best (or most suitable) brand is for that type of setup. Is there like, the BEST paper ever to use?

I've heard of Beaver Pads but I don't know what they are.

When I press my designs, sometimes I cut around them, sometimes not - depends on the complexity. In this particular case I cut around the design and there were no paper marks of any kind. I could probably use some more pressure maybe. I've rounded off the rubber pad on the bottom of the press. Press marks weren't much of an issue in this case as I hardly used any pressure.

I try to use only as much paper as I need (appeals to my environmental senses). I do have the wide format printer and could easily use the roll but it's so darn wasteful and I just can't stand doing that! 

I'm using a 15 x 15 press. Half the time the designs are quite small - maybe I need a little tiny press for those as well. I'm frequently doing logos and such, less than 6 x 6. It would make sense to have a small press for small things.

Initially, I started using a teflon sheet on top but found that eventually it gets creased (it didn't long for that to happen) and then the creases are pressed into the shirt and never come out. So I just put a similar sized paper on top to prevent blow-through to the platen. 

I'm going to order the Vapor foam kit on my next order. I was using a mousepad - which is great for thick stuff. But I realized on thinner fabric, the mousepad heats up and makes the whole thing signifcantly hotter - which would be ok if I knew HOW much hotter, then I could adjust. 

On the Terra Mesa, eventually I tried 180 for 120 seconds which gave a passable result, though the black doesn't pop out much but they're ok. 

Sorry about the long-winded speech...
I do appreciate everyone's help.

We'll get this thing going somehow!


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## JYA (Jun 2, 2008)

Suzie,

I initially had the same problem. Use a 1" border around your design and most certainly purchase the Vapor Foam Kit. I noticed a HUGE difference in quality!


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## Susie (Oct 19, 2007)

Whee hee for the Vapor Foam Kit! I finally got the kit. (don't be cheap - it's TOTALLY worth it).
I followed the instructions that came with it and voila it was a huge improvement.(imagine that!) 

Although, I haven't tried it with the Terra Mesa, but I did do November White and they were good. (I'm doing photos on those tees for a client so there is no room for iffy quality). But I suspect that it will work just as well on Terra Mesa - I'll post a follow-up when I get around to doing the orange shirts.

Thanks everyone for your input.

By the way, Mark - have you tried it with the foam? Just wondered how it's going...

Susie


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