# A newbie sharing his tale and asking for help



## Dark Elf (Nov 25, 2006)

HOWdy All,

Thank you everyone for all the welcome posts and I cant tell ya how glad I am that I found this forum. I know the value of sharing information and how precious it is when you find a forum like this where professionals are taking an active part in the discussions. So in advance, from the heart Thank You one and all. 

I want to do iron-on transfers, heat transfers, Ink Jet T-shirt transfers and not have the silly thing to crackle upon the first wash or sometimes when you first pull the paper off. (I could write a whole expose` on the above terms and how misleading they really are)

To continue a discussion that I started with John S up in Introductions... 

After failing time and time again with off the shelf paper from your local Staples store, after purchasing commercial grade Transfer Jet paper from well known supplier over the net and then after going through several t-shirts that are now rags, I finally came to the conclusion that I either needed to quit altogether or get serious. (I am a little slow on the uptake...snicker) 

About two months ago I decided I wanted to try my hand at creating just the graphics and then printing them on commercial grade paper and selling the transfer on ebay. Didnt want to sell t-shirts with the transfer already on the shirt. Just the paper and let the customer worry about doing the actual transfer. This idea comes from countless failures at actually getting a finished product that I would spend "my money" to buy. I got back into this because of needing to write the instructions that go with the transfer. I wanted to make sure that what I was telling the un-suspecting buyer to do, was something I could do myself. Its a character flaw I realize but bear with me a sec.  

After much more in-depth research, coming to grips with the terms heat transfer and iron-on transfer, cold peel and hot peel, commercial grade papers and your local store bought paper, Durabrite pigmented inks versus Vivera dye based inks, 
cotton and cotton/polyblend t shirts, temp settings on irons versus temp settings on heat press, going out an actually purchasing an Epson C88+, trying the same cool peel paper from the same Staples store and (you guys are going to laugh at this next one) taking a meat thermometer and measuring the heat on my iron...discovering that it will get to over 400 F at its highest setting, scorching heaven and earth, I have yet to create a t-shirt that will not crack after the "first" wash. 

This has long since gone from wanting to create t-shirts for my 14 grandkids or wanting a little "side business" to keep me happy and in new toys. This is now a matter of personal pride. (small amount of ego involved as well...chuckle) 

I have looked at the sparkling new heat press professional grade for anywhere from $269-$365 and UP plus shipping and handling. I have drooled! 

I think it was Lou that mentioned in the threads talking about a startup for business and spending $675 for a heat press. While I understand what he is saying and where he is coming from...my wife...well lets just say that she didnt really give me a "serious" answer and leave it at that.  

Ok so where do I start. I have re-ordered on paper, Transfer Jet II and will have it in about a week. I have given up on the cool peel from Avery. (my Staples store may never recover from the loss of revenue...teeeeheeee) 
I have browsed thru and read about the half the posts on heat press and heat transfer. I have done a lot more research than from a year ago when I first got this whole idea of t shirt transfers. I understand the difference between the inks...Durabrite and/or pigment based inks versus dye-based inks for ink jet printers. BTW it wasnt the idea of pigment based ink as much as it was that Durabrite inks claim "water resistant" that got me started in that direction. I knew enough to try to make the connection between the two but I still dont understand the process. 

I mean what are we transfering, just the inks or something else to the fabric. (speaking of light color or white transfers only) The idea of laying down a substrate for dark transfers first and then applying the transfer makes more sense to me...but here again... this speaking from my vast storehouse of knowledge (zip, nada, nothing)  If I could beg a second question in this post...Is it possible to do with just an iron and not a heat press or am I just wanting to go "bear huntin" with a switch? I mean as a newbie, advertisments tend to leave you with the impression that, "Sure!" "Just fire up your iron and follow these simple instructions and presto, change-o and you too can create these amazing transfers that last forever, through countless washes..yadda yadda yadda!

BTW I went through the video tuts mentioned here and I was so impressed (hope rises again) at the whole process of having a heat press. Excellent job! Outstanding! I have written many tutorials on graphics and I know that great deal of time goes into doing these tuts. And sometimes very few "attaboys" make it back to the creator. I just want to say, I enjoyed them and would reccommend them to anyone who doesnt understand heat transfers as a "must view"! God! He makes look so simple! 

Thanks for reading! I know this is long and I apologize in advance

der Elf


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## T-BOT (Jul 24, 2006)

John,

We have been using a Xerox Lazer Copier and Xerox Digital Transfer paper media, we print the transfer on a "No Name Brand" opaque material. We print it on shirts and they DO NOT CRACK. The colors etc... will LAST A long time. Guaranteed.  ..... this is the truth. 


As for Plastisol Transfers, there are transfers that are simply good quality for ALL types of purposes.

Both of the above can be applied with a Home Hand Iron (as long as they are not huge in size) or a Heat Press Machine.

So, dont give up.


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## Dark Elf (Nov 25, 2006)

Lucy, 

Thanks for the reply and still yet something else to consider. I had long long time ago using copiers for transfer black and white drawings for appliques for later hand painting. Matter of fact, the corporation I worked for started taking a dim view of its employees using the copiers for personal use. Most people dont understand that these copiers had a duty cycle that forces the tech to do maint. procedures...both timely and costly. Of course thats changed now most everything is throw-away and its like getting a new machine when you change toner cartridge. 

I refuse to give up. I love graphics too much and have spent a ton of money over the years on computers, graphics cards, programs, monitors and printers not to mention the time spent on the learning how to use these programs. Its always been a hobby of course. I have no professional training in graphical arts. I have just spent time behind the monitor. Most of the stuff that I have done is 8x10 or business card size. 

Now I want to see my work in print. Its time to recoup some of those years, time and money. That's it. Totally selfish motives.  When I actually do my first transfer that doesnt crack, you will hear me hoop and holler and you wont have to strain your hearing either.  

Thanks Lucy.

John


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## T-BOT (Jul 24, 2006)

Dark Elf said:


> Lucy,
> Matter of fact, the corporation I worked for started taking a dim view of its employees using the copiers for personal use. Most people dont understand that these copiers had a duty cycle that forces the tech to do maint. procedures...both timely and costly.


To make a long story short. When a major player in the Lazer Copier world came from the USA here to our place, to figure out how we could afford a $ 65k machine when only making a few thousand copies/month (according to the copy reads we had to give them on a monthly basis), and after spending a week at the shop watching the equipment in action (making transfers for t-shirts), soon after all Photo Copy places were now able to make t-shirts too.  ...but yes, the problem was that running transfer material thru these machines done by photo copy place employees, there were too many paper jams and shirt screw ups, hard to traine, supervise, employee turn over etc.. So that was the end of that. Of course with operator/owner places there was not a problem. 




> When I actually do my first transfer that doesnt crack, you will hear me hoop and holler and you wont have to strain your hearing either.
> 
> Thanks Lucy.
> 
> John


serious, like i said in my previous post. There are transfers that are hard TO crack.  

Good luck.

typo edits:::::::::


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## Dark Elf (Nov 25, 2006)

(smile) 

Sounds like you been havin fun! I wouldnt want your headaches, but at the same time, sincerely, I appreciate your replying to my posts.  

No I ain't runnin away. The new paper wont be here till later part of next week. When it gets here, by then hopefully I will have a better understanding of what I am doing. 

One of posts here on a different thread was talking about educating the customer and not give your stuff away. That the customer simply does not understand what all has to transpire to get the finished product...time is money...etc etc. I think that's where I am at. I have already learned so much just from going the threads here. Things I wouldnt have thought of "like cold spots" on the heat press platen because of the way the coils are laid in the platen itself. That is a question I would not known to even ask or research if you and others like you hadnt bothered to hold our hands and walk us thru this. 

Thanks bunches!

John


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## Jasonda (Aug 16, 2006)

Dark Elf said:


> I mean what are we transfering, just the inks or something else to the fabric. (speaking of light color or white transfers only)


When you apply a transfer for light shirts, part of the paper (the coating that the ink is soaked into) also comes off and attaches itself to the shirt. That's why if you don't trim your paper around the printed design, you will see a transparent "wax" window around the design when it is transfered. Some papers have a less noticable window than others.

For opaque transfers, the window is opaque and white instead of transparent. So if you don't trim it you will have a big white box around your design.



Dark Elf said:


> If I could beg a second question in this post...Is it possible to do with just an iron and not a heat press or am I just wanting to go "bear huntin" with a switch? I mean as a newbie, advertisments tend to leave you with the impression that, "Sure!" "Just fire up your iron and follow these simple instructions and presto, change-o and you too can create these amazing transfers that last forever, through countless washes..yadda yadda yadda!


Honestly, I really don't think you will be able to achieve consistent, professional results with a home iron, and neither will your customers (if you are planning to sell printed transfers on eBay). There are too many uncontrolled variables - mainly temperature and pressure.

If you are really serious about this, do some market research to find out if your designs will sell, ask your wife for a heat press for Christmas, and start printing those tees.

Hope this helps!


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## basenji (Sep 6, 2006)

Your story sounds so familiar to me!! I started out trying to make shirts as a fund raiser for a project I'm on -Avery transfers from Staples and my little iron.
Results? I have 50 unsellable shirts on a shelf tucked away in my closet for future testing and practice. Didn't get anywhere until I broke down and bought a heat press and commercial grade transfers. Members of this forum were very kind and patient with my " can I heat press over transfers that I've already ironed on? type questions. I went with the Mighty-Lite 11" X 15" press. On the one hand, I find that what folks say is true and I already wish I had invested in at least a 15" X 15". But on the other hand - I am now producing shirts that I'm proud to sell! So I found that no matter what I tried, only a heat press could produce shirts that won't crack. I'm pretty happy for now with my Epson C88+ inkjet transfers. You sound very determined to make this work - my advice is to invest at least in the minimum it takes to produce quality shirts and upgrade when you can. Worked for me!
Lynn


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## Dark Elf (Nov 25, 2006)

Thanks Jasonda,

I havent done a whole lot of market research basically because I wanted to linger along edges where its nice and safe...(giggle) No, I have done some but not to the extent that I really feel comfortable. I made one t shirt for my daughter. It still cracked horribly but she wanted anyways. She wore it to school and 10 of her friends liked it, 8 of them want one, 2 said their parents would shoot them if they bought one. Beyond that it been family and friends and that prone to tell ya what you want to hear.

As for my wife, I must honest here. She puts up with "a lot" from my adventures. So she is always a little more level headed than I am. But I wrote Santa Claus a letter and it come back she had moved and left no forwarding address.... 

I think you are absolutely right about the hand iron and here is a scary thought. Lets suppose that I had not found this forum. Lets further suppose that I just started dumping transfers without really testing them. I can tell you from the customers side, I would never depend on t-shirt transfers from "anyone"...pro or amateur. 

Thanks for the explanation on the transfer. I suspected something like that, but honestly have never seen the clear window that describe since I always trimed my attempts done to 1/8". 

Thanks again.

John


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## Dark Elf (Nov 25, 2006)

Thanks Lynn for the reply. 

Thank goodness I bought in bulk and not your local craft store pricing. 

The jury is still out on the heat press. I think I can justify one of the less expensive units just because of all the grandkids I got. (smile) Whether or not I ever sell a transfer or a t-shirt, its not like I am paying the rent here. So I can afford the luxury of time and just save up till I can buy outright. If I do go retail then I want to do it right or not at all and if that is what its going to take....


Happy Holidays

John


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## T-BOT (Jul 24, 2006)

Dark Elf said:


> (smile)
> 
> Sounds like you been havin fun! I wouldnt want your headaches,
> 
> John


there are no headaches.  

i was trying to explain the fact that at one time you were not allowed to feed High End Lazer Copy machines with nothing but normal paper. Feeding transfer paper thru a Lazer copy machine at the time (90's) was a no-no.

But after we tested it out and help establish the new posibility that these machines could be used to make t-shirt transfers, it open the door to a NEW billion dollar industry.

Hope this makes it a little more clear.


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## Dark Elf (Nov 25, 2006)

OK,
The paper came today!!! A few days ahead of schedule! I followed the directions to the tee that came with the paper. BTW this is Transfer Jet...not Transfer Jet II as I mistakenly typed in an earlier post. 

Printed the transfer out, followed the instructions for using an iron. Nothing. Totally disappointed in the result. It cracked, and not all the ink transferred to the shirt. 

Now somewhere out there, there might be someone who has the exact temperature iron and uses the exact amount of pressure for the given amount of time and produce a transfer that doesnt crack. But as for me....we're done! I couldnt posssibly sell transfers on ebay and claim that you can iron them on with a home hand iron and "not" crack. I have yet to see it done. 

As for the temp on the iron...if I crank it up it will scorch the shirt and the transfer both. BTW I using cotton/poly blend shirts with epson durabrite inks. OEM. 

Conclusion. I will save my money and buy an entry level heat press. I am tired of ruining shirts and transfers. I am not saying you cant get "some" of the ink to transfer and I am not saying that "some" people may be satisfied with what they get. But to approach professional level transfer with a home iron...good luck! 

Thank all of you for all your replys and good information. I have learned bunches here and as soon I as I can afford a heat press, I will be back. 

Thanks

John


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## T-BOT (Jul 24, 2006)

John, 
its not the iron that makes the transfer crack. Cheap transfer crack even with the Golden Heat Press Machine.  

there is a rumour going around that Spielsberg is working on a new YouTube feature film application documentry that will proove you wrong. 
du-no about digital transfers, but good plastisol transfers dont crack.

Also, Like i said before, Xerox Lazer copy Transfers with the famous No Name  opaque backing, DO NOT CRACK my friend.


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## Dark Elf (Nov 25, 2006)

Lucy,
I humbly bow to the experience! 

But I am not talking about plastisol transfers and I am not talking about lazer copier transfers on opaque material. As for cheap transfer paper, this is Transfer Jet paper from BestBlanks.com, which is supposed to be a commercial grade transfer paper. 

My point being and you just made it again, if I have to jump thru hoops to make this work then what is the unsuspecting (namely me) person who believes in what he reads and what "everyone" is advertising (present company excluded of course). 

What I am going to do is take my design to a professional and have them run it up for me on a heat press. Right now I have nothing tangible to compare what I am getting... OR if someone wants to jump on this I will pay for someone to run the design up for me. Just let me know what its going to cost and where to send it!  And I am talking a heat transfer on white shirt and I will even supply the shirt or the paper or both or none. I will send the printed transfer OR I will send the CD and you can print it out on your own paper and your own inks. Not trying to be a smart so and so, just want to see it professionally done so I have a known quanitity.  

John


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## Jasonda (Aug 16, 2006)

Dark Elf said:


> OR if someone wants to jump on this I will pay for someone to run the design up for me. Just let me know what its going to cost and where to send it!  And I am talking a heat transfer on white shirt and I will even supply the shirt or the paper or both or none. I will send the printed transfer OR I will send the CD and you can print it out on your own paper and your own inks. Not trying to be a smart so and so, just want to see it professionally done so I have a known quanitity.


John,

Once you have 15 posts you can put a "Service needed" ad in the Classifieds section. You will get a lot more replies that way. I am sure someone around here would be happy to print something up for you.


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## T-BOT (Jul 24, 2006)

Dark Elf said:


> Lucy,
> I humbly bow to the experience!
> John


John, please.  

You are right. I think what you want as far as quality, durability etc. it may be beyond the transfer paper you have. What you have on hand gives you a low cost alternative to print multi-color graphics on shirts. But it has its quality factor issues.

As for asking peeps here to provide you with proof of such high expectations you have for this paper, I honestly dont think anyone will come forward. Thats because there are different transfer paper media for different purposes at different levels of tradesmanship. I think you want a Cadilac but you are testing a Toyotas. lol 
cheers.


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## badalou (Mar 19, 2006)

Well Hi John.. how did I miss this... This is Lou the old guy who did the video's. By the way I think my wife must be tired running between your house and mine.. At least she sound like my wife. My thing here is to beg you to please don't get an "Entry level" machine.. first in the long run you won't get that look from your wife that says' see what happens when you try to save money...(yep, it happen) If your going to do it.. do it right.. I learned the hard way. Every answer I give here is not because I have been doing this a long time because I have not.. but because I made mistakes and I like to help people not make those mistakes.. because as our wives will tell us.. you should have listened. Please feel free to contact me for any assistance.. OK 14 grandchildren.. that is not 14 tee shirts.. that's 14 billboards walking around with your work.. always, and I mean always, look for the marketing angle.. I am mentoring several people here on the forum.. so jump on board.. remember that people like Lucy and Lewis and Rodney and jasonda and a hundred more will give you info that is very, very valuable.. Just keep asking.. Remember Rome was built one toga at a time. (badlouism 632345)


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## Dark Elf (Nov 25, 2006)

Hi Lou,
Just a quick note then I gonna go count some sheep. Appreciate what your saying. I need to get a plan of action going and stop trying to do this the hard way. Re-inventin the wheel just a waste of time. 

I do want to see one of my designs done by a pro and heat transfer at that. As for the entry level...well that's frustration talking more than anything else I think. 

The best transfer I have managed to do so far was for my 15 year old daughter and people are asking about it and wanting to know how they can get one. (chuckle) I hear ya on the angle thing. 

I holler at you tmr and we talk some more

Thanks Lou

John


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## Dark Elf (Nov 25, 2006)

T-BOT said:


> John, please.
> 
> You are right. I think what you want as far as quality, durability etc. it may be beyond the transfer paper you have. What you have on hand gives you a low cost alternative to print multi-color graphics on shirts. But it has its quality factor issues.


Lucy
I stumbled by accident onto the The Mountain shirts. Blew me away!!! The artistry captured on canvas (t-shirt) would just drop your jaw and stare. Of course, it was all silk screen along with a pricetag. I understand what I am asking. So far, I have made all the mistakes. Mistakes are not a bad thing. The old adage, "you can learn more from your mistakes than you ever can from your successes" is true! Now with that perspective, "Damn, I am learning a lot!"  

I dont care whose paper is the best, or whose ink is the best. Those are quality control issues about durability and production issues. What I am after is trying to get the transfer to stay on the shirt and look like before it was pressed on. I have seen pictures of shirts with photo attached to them using heat transfer. There is nothing more difficult than to transfer the subtle shades of skin tone. I dont care if its raster or vector graphics and I do understand the difference between the two. 

I used to have a darkroom...developed and print my own 35mm bulk color film. Want to drive yourself nuts in a little row boat, "screamin at the top of your lungs"...They're coming to take me away, ha ha! They're are comin to take me away, ho, ho!  

The color changes from bulk roll to bulk roll so much so you must take test shots against an 18% grey background. The paper changes so much in color that again you must proof each new package so that you can obtain the latest control numbers for exposure not only on your camera but your enlarger as well. Age on either will change the results. 

This whole heat transfer process better be way way short of that, or I dont want anything to do with it.  

Hugs

John


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## Dark Elf (Nov 25, 2006)

Thanks Jasonda,

I probably can get it done here locally. We used to have a store here in our local mall that used to do transfers and silk screening. But wouldnt you know that when I want them, they have moved. (chuckle) I got to go tip-toeing thru the yellow pages today. 

John


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## Solmu (Aug 15, 2005)

Dark Elf said:


> This whole heat transfer process better be way way short of that, or I dont want anything to do with it.


Heh. It will be way short of that, but there are potentially problems like colour shifting under heat, transfers not adhering the same as last week due to humidity, etc. - nothing like the same level as your darkroom woes, but never headache free of course


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## Dark Elf (Nov 25, 2006)

Hey Lewis
Top of the morning...or evening as it were! 

Not a problem, I can live with that. I like woodworking as well and may end up sellin the shop equip to go for the t-shirts. So I comfortable with humidity problems. 

Colour shifting can be pain in the.... But like you say nothing is headache free.

thanks

John


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## MotoskinGraphix (Apr 28, 2006)

I think you really should be looking into Dye-Sublimation printing and transfers for light colored shirts. No paper transfers only the inks which bond molecularly with the polyester molecules in the garment. The shirts you can use are Vapor apparel or Hanes soft link. There is no hand to the printing and no worrys about cracking etc. You will need a heatpress as the temps are 400 degrees min. I am sampling some Vapor gear right now and looking very hard at this system.

I do auto events and have customers ask for pic t-shirts all the time. I want no part of trimming transfers as time is money. I already do vinyl transfers for custom shirts and the weeding involved. I use stock plastisol transfers to have a faster turn time and point of sale items. Dye-sub is my next goal for full color custom designs without the worries of cracking shirts. Only drawback is the non use of dark or black shirts.


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## Solmu (Aug 15, 2005)

Dark Elf said:


> Top of the morning...or evening as it were!


It's 2am here at the moment, so I don't know what that counts as  



Dark Elf said:


> I like woodworking as well and may end up sellin the shop equip to go for the t-shirts.


That would be a shame, but I guess we always have to choose/make sacrifices.



Dark Elf said:


> So I comfortable with humidity problems.
> 
> Colour shifting can be pain in the.... But like you say nothing is headache free.


Yup, and while they're some of the things that _can_ happen, I don't get impression they're that big a deal (I don't generally use heat press myself, so I mostly know what I've picked up secondhand).


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## Solmu (Aug 15, 2005)

MotoskinGraphix said:


> Only drawback [to dyesub] is the non use of dark or black shirts.


No, that's very much 1 of 2 drawbacks. The need to use polyester garments is a _huge_ drawback, both because the blanks cost more (and are harder to find, and restrict your options) and because many potential customers will hate the idea of polyester garments.

I don't mind the one Vapor shirt I have, and in general I think dyesub is worth seriously considering, but never the less it's a big drawback that needs to be considered (digital transfers aren't much good at handling dark shirts in general anyway, so the other drawback isn't just a dyesub specific problem anyway).


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## Dark Elf (Nov 25, 2006)

Mornin David,

I looked at it briefly. Remember, I really didnt want to get into a business. This started out as wanting to be just a hobby...(elf rolls his eyes). But I found some silk screen shirts that just blew me away. If I had a goal in all of this I would probably be headed in that direction. The only problem with silk screening is the number of colors...so dye sub could definitely be a stopping place. 

The epson will do dye sub with the bulk inker. So I may give it a shot later on.

John


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## Dark Elf (Nov 25, 2006)

Hey Lewis,
I used to run two graphic forums and we had people from all over droppin in at odd times. Two of them lived Australia and we used to converse all the time. One is a designer now the other does web sites professionally. One has a degree and dont remember if Alli has a degree or not. But they started same as I did. 

Well the shop started back before the "spotted owl" and before gas got up to $3 a gallon. Both have taken their toll on the industry and these big CNC machines can Ronco-matic out furniture like there is no tmr. Cheap stuff but I cant compete with them. People just dont want to spend the money or can't for real wood. It takes a lot of time and great deal of money to keep a shop open. Neither of which I have an over abundance...chuckle. So, I turned to just piddly around with it and now most of the equip needs to be re-calibrated before anything serious could take place. We are also getting the Phoenix effect here...humidity for irrigation. Humidity has climbed 20% in the last two years and I live in the desert. 

Add to that the idea of setting in a climate controlled atmosphere with no dust ....hey...I could get used to this, X number of feet from the ice box. LOL!!!

Later

John


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## MotoskinGraphix (Apr 28, 2006)

Dark Elf said:


> Mornin David,
> 
> I looked at it briefly. Remember, I really didnt want to get into a business. This started out as wanting to be just a hobby...(elf rolls his eyes). But I found some silk screen shirts that just blew me away. If I had a goal in all of this I would probably be headed in that direction. The only problem with silk screening is the number of colors...so dye sub could definitely be a stopping place.
> 
> ...


As a hobby and if you just want to sell transfers on e-bay then custom plastisol is perfect. You design the art etc understanding the color limitations, process etc. Place an order with a well know transfer company and have them print the gear.

There are transfers all over e-bay. For an idea of what is possible go look at x-it online, Wildside, Airwaves etc. The transfers give the results similar to screenprinting(basically the same inks). You get them on release paper, store them, sell them or print them.

Yeah I know this isnt really what you want as a do it yourself deal but qulity is king for selling anything and Plastisol transfers, screen printing and dye-sub are all good quality.


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## Dark Elf (Nov 25, 2006)

David,
When I started this idea of selling on ebay, I liked the idea of keeping the designs on CD and print when needed. Less overhead and stocking problems. The ability to be able to adjust directions in the graphic end. But my understanding of Plastisol is that you still have the same considerations as I have now...time, heat and pressure of a heat press versus that of home hand iron. Only now I have added a 3rd party to the picture and increased my turn around time for a viable product. I can see in textile printing business that plastisol would be an advantage...but I hate the limits it has at this point. 

Remember I know squat when it comes to all this. So my perspective is very narrow at this point. 

John


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## MotoskinGraphix (Apr 28, 2006)

Dark Elf said:


> David,
> When I started this idea of selling on ebay, I liked the idea of keeping the designs on CD and print when needed. Less overhead and stocking problems. The ability to be able to adjust directions in the graphic end. But my understanding of Plastisol is that you still have the same considerations as I have now...time, heat and pressure of a heat press versus that of home hand iron. Only now I have added a 3rd party to the picture and increased my turn around time for a viable product. I can see in textile printing business that plastisol would be an advantage...but I hate the limits it has at this point.
> 
> Remember I know squat when it comes to all this. So my perspective is very narrow at this point.
> ...


I agree that your perspective is narrow and visually imagine you hanging onto that hand iron like a false golden idol which it is. You want to sell pro transfers you have to open up to pro gear. The tools dont have to be super expensive just the right tool for the right job as with anything.

I like the idea of doing in house production, I like screenprinting best of all but I dont have the equipment or experience to produce the quality I would buy let alone sell. I can do heatpress vinyl all day long for car clubs etc but there is more in me than the simple limitations vinyl offers.

At events I can only produce so many heatpress vinyl shirts in a certain amount of time. Well that becomes a wall for income so you look into another avenue of shirt sales and ideas. I went with stock plastisol transfers in the styles that I liike and think my market would buy. I can take them from event to event and print on demand. Customer looks at my display and Cat. chooses a design, a minute later the shirt is in their hands and the cash in mine. Point of sale to compensate for the custom vinyl that is being cut on the plotter for the custom shirt.

Now I have the customer who wants a pic of their car on a shirt but I detest digital transfers and dont want to do any more cutting around an image. I already have to weed the vinyl so transfer paper isnt going to solve my time and production problem. What to do? I am looking into adding Dye-Sub as another means to an end and the end is the greatest production and profit I can achieve within the given amount of time at the event.

Obviously I didnt hang onto my narrow way of thinking which by the way started with just vinyl graphics only...my false golden idol if you will. 

Hang onto that iron if you want but it will take you exactly nowhere. By the way a 15x15 heatpress will press your clothes as well.


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## Dark Elf (Nov 25, 2006)

Hi David,

I went to a local pro shop and ordered the shirt with my design. Be done by Friday. I got to meet one of the graphic designer who checked my work and all was ok. Then they took back into the shop. (drool drool). Lot of equipment I have no idea what it does but got to look at the heat press. Not a name brand that I would recognize which supprised me. But then I turned and looked around the shop. One guy was operating a big silk screen machine and I drooled some more. (chuckle) The girl told me that they do more silk screening than anything else. 

The next thing that impressed was the size of the equipment. HUGE!! I can appreciate having lots of room for this stuff. But again they do a lot of sign work so room was definitely a plus. It was late in the day and everyone looked pretty busy, so I didnt want to press them too much with too many questions. I am looking forward to Friday.

I have been looking and reading for the better part of two weeks. The textile printing business is as varied as was my woodshop. You find your niche. And then you fill that niche with what ever it takes. Even after two weeks and learning some of the buzz words. I still need a lot of hand holding and I feel like a kid in a candy store and my eyes way too big for my stomach. (grin) 

Here is my point. Listening to you guys and your logic behind what it is you do is as critical to me right now than anything that I could get. Most of you have faced the problems that I dont even have any of the questions (smile). I started with hot press transfers and I am kinda stuck on it right now. I suspect I wont be for long. As for the iron, I would melt it down and sell it for a boat anchor if my wife would let me. (chuckle) I give up on the idea of doing this with an hand iron yesteday. 

I will know more on Friday by being able for the first time to actually be on the same page as everyone else. I can judge the quality for myself, I will know the price range for the type of work I want to do, and I will get first hand knowledge of my competition if thats the way I want to go. 

At this point, I havent ruled out too much of anything. 

Thanks for the info and talk to you soon. 

John


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## Dark Elf (Nov 25, 2006)

Lou,
I sent you email today. Just lettin you know. If you got it thats fine. I use filters on my mail like most people today and I know how things can get buried and deleted. Answer whenever you get the chance. No problems here. Or better yet, send your wife over and mayber she can convince my wife...on second thought...bad idea, bad idea. LOL!!!!!!

later

John


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## Solmu (Aug 15, 2005)

Dark Elf said:


> I feel like a kid in a candy store and my eyes way too big for my stomach. (grin)


 Excellent.



Dark Elf said:


> Here is my point. Listening to you guys and your logic behind what it is you do is as critical to me right now than anything that I could get.


Logic's all well and good (and ultimately necessary to run a business), but don't forget the kid in the candy store  (a lot of people do after a while)


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## Dark Elf (Nov 25, 2006)

Mornin Lewis,
No I am looking at all of it. Trying to get a feel for how much work, mark up, inventory, warehousing...etc. But mostly where 'my graphics" fit in to the whole system. My days of having to do something to pay the rent are over. This is and is gonna be fun time or I will find something else. I want to enjoy the "whole" process as a "whole" or its "off with my White's metal detector and the beach." 

I talk about my wife as major obstacle but in reality she is much much more. We have been married for over 20 years and I couldnt find a better partner. The other thing is that I am finally old enough to understand that no matter what I want to do, it still affects the entire family. So, we bounce things off each other and we "both" have to get on board. Right now she is draggin her feet and I am doing the leg work. But after its all said and done...we will both commit or not at all. 

Lucy has some excellent points with the Xerox Laser Printer. David makes his case with the dye sub and vinyl. You and others all make your case and justify how you approach what you do and the environment that drives you to it. That's priceless! That literally is the kid in the candy store trying to decide which color gum drop he wants. (smile) Time is on my side, so why not avail myself of it and look at all the colors.


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## T-BOT (Jul 24, 2006)

well John, its the kid in you that will make it all worth it.
Myself joing this board is a way of giving back all that i have experianced. I'm too young to retire and was lucky to reach financial security at 20. So, it is the kid in me that keeps wanting to explore further. May be I will move on to something else in the future but right now this whole imprint evolution is what i find interesting.


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## Dark Elf (Nov 25, 2006)

Morning Lucy,

I think thats the neatest thing. I have friends that are retired and complain about being bored. I am anything but! Not enough hours in the day for me. 
I ran two graphic forums for awhile and thought that was the greatest thing to be able to give back some of what you have learned thru experience. 

But now forums seemed to be more and more stuck with the "lurkers" that are afraid or just wont participate in any discussion. I have closed one forum and I am still the AM on another but seldom post now. You cant pry people fingers off the mouse long enough to type anything. (chuckle) 

My printers are giving me fits the last couple of days. The color space is all wrong and this new LCD monitor, I just love it to pieces. I finally had to go thru each and every monitor (two) and each computer (3) and the two printers, reset default and then reboot and then change everything to sRGB and then reboot and finally what I am getting is better but still not totally the same between monitor and printer. I can live with it ...but its frustrating as all get out. The only thing I know to do at this point is write a profile for each printer in PhotoImpact as an action and before the final save...apply the profile for that particular printer. YUCK!!!

Later.


John


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## Twinge (Apr 26, 2005)

T-BOT said:


> I think you want a Cadilac but you are testing a Toyotas. lol
> cheers.


 ...The Toyota would outlast the Caddilac, though 




Dark Elf said:


> I stumbled by accident onto the The Mountain shirts. Blew me away!!! The artistry captured on canvas (t-shirt) would just drop your jaw and stare. Of course, it was all silk screen along with a pricetag.


The Mountain shirts are great. Of course, to do that kind of quality, you're looking at 4-color process screen printing, which will probably require several thousand shirts of the same design to be printed at the same time, hehe.



Solmu said:


> No, that's very much 1 of 2 drawbacks. The need to use polyester garments is a _huge_ drawback, both because the blanks cost more (and are harder to find, and restrict your options) and because many potential customers will hate the idea of polyester garments.


 In addition to the blanks being more expensive, the ink is too. Also, the press time is much higher for dye sub, so you probably don't save as much time as you might think (but it still will likely be a bit faster than digital transfer or vonyl in most cases).




Dark Elf said:


> People just dont want to spend the money or can't for real wood.


I respective the craftmanship in real wood furniture, but I sure can't afford it. I look at the prices for real furniture (non-particle board) and cringe! Furniture like that is currently on my list of stuff not worth buying new, alongside cars =)



Solmu said:


> Logic's all well and good (and ultimately necessary to run a business), but don't forget the kid in the candy store  (a lot of people do after a while)


 I wish I could call on that more easily, though. I tend to get very into any new project I get involved with for a while (anything - work, games, whatever) but then I just kind of lose interest halfway through, hehe.

...Wait, maybe I'm just TOO in touch with the kid part, and have no patience or self-control... d'oh.



Anyway, as far as irons go -- I have, believe it or not, produced shirts that look decent and don't crack with a home iron. I made some up before I ever thought about starting a shirt business. Just used the Avery paper which worked pretty well (the Office Max transfer paper did NOT work that well when we tried it).

I think the main key when using an iron is to provide HEAVY pressure. Press down with both hands, from a position above the iron, to make sure you press the transfer in good. When my mom tried pressing this was her problem, and they didn't turn out that well.

Not to say you shouldn't get a heat press by any means, just saying that you can do "decent" shirts with an iron. I still wouldn't sell ironed shirts, but they work well enough for hobby/personal use. (One other note on the comparison -- takes 3 minutes to press a shirt with an iron, and 20 seconds with a heat press =)


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## T-BOT (Jul 24, 2006)

Twinge said:


> ...The Toyota would outlast the Caddilac, though.


I think you missed the point Twinge....  



> The Mountain shirts are great. Of course, to do that kind of quality, you're looking at 4-color process screen printing, which will probably require several thousand shirts of the same design to be printed at the same time, hehe.


*If you are Talking about the Rock Band Mountain (Mississippi Queen Mountain). You dont ..... about Twinge. We made a FEW full colour Mountain T-Shirts with their live CD graphics for the Drummer and Guitarist.  *

http://www.mountaintheband.com/corkylaing/corkylaing.htm


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## Rodney (Nov 3, 2004)

> If you are Talking about the Rock Band Mountain (Mississippi Queen Mountain). *You dont know what you are talking about Twinge.* We made a FEW full colour Mountain T-Shirts with their live CD graphics for the Drummer and Guitarist.


Easy there folks  Let's keep it professional.

Twinge is talking about the popular "The Mountain" t-shirts as featured here:
http://www.themountain.com/gallery.htm


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## Dark Elf (Nov 25, 2006)

Hi Gang,

Well last friday I picked up my t-shirt that was supposed to be a heat transfer on a small adult white t-shirt. I wont tell you what I really think, but just say that they used vinyl...big 8x10 piece of vinyl. I wanted a heat transfer and I got one. Not the one I wanted...but I got one. 

I was disgusted when I got home. The color was all off. But hey...an education is an education. 

My wife and I sat down over the weekend and discussed this entire subject of going into the t-shirt business. We lined up our goals and what we expected to achieve and decided to buy a new JP-12 heat press. Our reasoning consisted of several things...mostly the limitations of space and other equipment on hand. It will be here a week from today or sooner.

We decided that this press would best fit our needs at this time and probably for all eternity. But if we need to expand then let the "business" dictate that expansion and pay for it. Instead investing time and money on something we are not sure of at this point. 

This press will give me a chance to tinker and play with some ideas that I have and still produce a quality product worthy of selling if I so choose. 

The biggest issue was our main goal in all of this. After long discussions, I wanted an outlet for my grahpics...be it transfers, greeting cards, dye sub up to a point. I dont want to become involved in working for someone else. I want my designs on my product the way I want them and not some 8 to 5 job that I have to please everyone else except myself.  I dont have to do that anymore and certainly am not gonna start that all over again. 

We think we have found a niche locally, so we are going to approach in that fashion. 

I want to thank everyone for all your input. Believe me it was and is greatly appreciated and I hope by taking the time to post here...that someone else can garner some food for thought as well. 

Thanks bunches,

John


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## T-BOT (Jul 24, 2006)

John, I for sure enjoyed your post.


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## Buechee (Dec 22, 2005)

This is a tale. Did you stop to breath. Don't feel bad. I bought the paper before I asked and got cheap paer myself. Not that cheap, but cheap. THey last about a good 5 or so washes. Just stay at it. Find out whats good and march on. I just take it as a paid for lesson.

"$675 for a heat press", I'd say that is about right for a good starter. Note starter. I paid about $625-$650 for mine. I'd have to look to see for sure. But check out the store that give the members of this forum a discount. If not, I got mine from coastal business. They're preety cool. Free shipping. Or it was for me when I got mine. But I think they ship for free.

This post is if you have not found one yet. I did not know I was going to be on page 5.

Welcome to the forum.


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## reginammp62 (Jul 4, 2008)

Dark Elf said:


> HOWdy All,
> 
> Thank you everyone for all the welcome posts and I cant tell ya how glad I am that I found this forum. I know the value of sharing information and how precious it is when you find a forum like this where professionals are taking an active part in the discussions. So in advance, from the heart Thank You one and all.
> 
> ...


 
I thank you for this great post! I'm bookmarking it as a favorite! I hope things have been going well since your first post. All the best!
-regina


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