# Heat transfer Adhesive Problem



## jimhack3 (Jan 23, 2007)

Dear T-shirtForum Friends,

I had a major transfer maker produce transfers for me, and was asked by them If I wanted adhesive added to make the transfer adhere better, and last longer. I agreed, and paid extra for It.

I got the transfers in and there were quite a few things wrong with the transfers, registration, adhesive in places that didn't have ink in the area, incorrect number of transfers ordered, but I'll just focus on the adhesive for now. 

First I wasn't aware that the somewhat clear adhesive would just be a cover over ink/ artwork. I thought that the adhesive would be beneath the artwork, basically inbetween the t-shirt and the plastisol.

Secondly when I washed the test shirt, on delicate cycle, in cold water, and then air dried It, it came out with this translucent, tiny air bubble looking film over the artwork. (The adhesive).

Is there any way that I can prevent this from happening. I don't want to sell the shirts, and have dissapointed customers after they wash the garment.

Contacted the printer about this. Some of the transfers were incorrect, they left out some of the artwork by mistake, and I paid for more transfers than I actually got. They told me that there a 3% over/ under run. 

I'll let you know how this thing play out.



Thank you Much,
Jim


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## COEDS (Oct 4, 2006)

Jim, I'm sorry to hear of your problem. I have not heard of this extra adhesive before. I hope you get it all worked out. Let us know if the vendor makes it right with you. If they don't we need to know that too. I would not deliver a product I wan't proud of either. Good luck and please keep us up to date on the outcome. ..... JB


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## jimhack3 (Jan 23, 2007)

Thank you Adam, for your remedy for removing the adhesive from areas that do not have ink, I'll have to work on each one of the transfers to remove It. Now how can I prevent the translucency, or cloudiness from appearing in the black ink areas, after the garment has been washed? It's not a good look. I can send pictures If you need to see it.


Thank you,
Jim


[snipped full emails]

Basically AET is sending me 10 0r 12 transfers to remedy the problem. I asked for a remedy for the bubbles in the artwork, but no reply, as of this second day


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## jimhack3 (Jan 23, 2007)

Sorry for the jumbled post above, but basically they're sending me 10 or 12 extra transfers to compensate me for "THEIR" screwup(*s*)! 

AET has not sent me any info in regards to how to prevent the translucent effect, or addressed other concerns that I e-mailed them, nor the registration of my transfers.

Jim


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## MotoskinGraphix (Apr 28, 2006)

I am a bit confused about the bubbles and transl. finish. If you are holding the transfer in your hand and see the adheasive then everything is as should be since that is the surface that adhears to the shirt. The idea that you have to scrape excess glue off everytime you print is just stupid. The company should re-do the entire order correctly and look into thier production problems.


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## COEDS (Oct 4, 2006)

I agree with David. You should demand they make this situation right. You can tell them you have posted on athe forums and people are concerned with the outcome. I don't know if will help, but it can't hurt for them to know they have potential customers waiting to see how they handle their mistakes. Good luck ......JB


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## Fluid (Jun 20, 2005)

Not trying to start anything yet I would be careful of posting emails from others. I belive an email is copyrighted material and warrants approval to publically post.

Jus tnot a good business practice.


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## MotoskinGraphix (Apr 28, 2006)

I would leave the threats and bad pub out totally. If they are a large transfer company they will fix the problem or refund the cash.


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## jimhack3 (Jan 23, 2007)

> Not trying to start anything yet I would be careful of posting emails from others. I belive an email is copyrighted material and warrants approval to publically post.
> 
> Jus tnot a good business practice


"The following are basic limitations on copyright:

• Facts, concepts and ideas are not protected by copyright. How the fact, concept and/or idea is expressed via tangible creation is protected. 

• Works not protected by copyright are considered in public domain and belong to the public for free use. Works with an expired copyright are free use. 

• Fair use exceptions are allowable for such purposes of teaching, research, news reports, parodies, and critiques provided that the value of the copyrighted material is protected."

Thanks Rich, I think that I'm safe.

Bless,
Jim


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## jimhack3 (Jan 23, 2007)

> I agree with David. You should demand they make this situation right. You can tell them you have posted on athe forums and people are concerned with the outcome. I don't know if will help, but it can't hurt for them to know they have potential customers waiting to see how they handle their mistakes. Good luck ......JB


Thanks JB and David. Monday I'm going to call them and see If they can correct the problem. I will keep you updated on the outcome. I plan to mention that I found their information on the T-shirt Forum, and I feel obligated to inform my fellow shirt decorating members of the outcome of this situation.

Bless,
Jim


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## jimhack3 (Jan 23, 2007)

MotoskinGraphix said:


> I am a bit confused about the bubbles and transl. finish. If you are holding the transfer in your hand and see the adheasive then everything is as should be since that is the surface that adhears to the shirt. The idea that you have to scrape excess glue off everytime you print is just stupid. The company should re-do the entire order correctly and look into thier production problems.


 
Dave please see attachment. It's a Pic of the adhesive after washing in cold water, and air drying in clothes dryer. It's also a pic of the adhesive placed in areas where no ink is present. The shirt color should show through that area, not the adhesive.

Bless,
Jim


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## Fluid (Jun 20, 2005)

Jim, check these out.
Email and Copyright
http://www.out-law.com/page-7768
UNE Copyright Pages Email

These are just a few of many.


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## Mr.4ColorProcess (Dec 5, 2005)

jimhack3 said:


> Dear T-shirtForum Friends,
> 
> 
> First I wasn't aware that the somewhat clear adhesive would just be a cover over ink/ artwork. I thought that the adhesive would be beneath the artwork, basically inbetween the t-shirt and the plastisol.


Jim, the adhesive is layed down last after every color has been printed. If the adhesive was beneath the artwork, then the adhesive wouldn't have anything to hold on to. Adhesive must be applied as the last color in your design. 

Did you follow the heat-press specs that your transfer manufacturer sent you? 

Is your heat-press a reliable and consistant heat-press? 

What kind of heat transfers did you order? You know, specialty inks? Flock? Etc...

There's many different avenues you could pursue here.


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## jimhack3 (Jan 23, 2007)

Mr.4ColorProcess said:


> Jim, the adhesive is layed down last after every color has been printed. If the adhesive was beneath the artwork, then the adhesive wouldn't have anything to hold on to. Adhesive must be applied as the last color in your design.
> 
> Did you follow the heat-press specs that your transfer manufacturer sent you?
> 
> ...


Yes I followed the manufacturers heat press settings, and I'm aware of how the adhesive is applied to the plastisol ink, now, but initially when I thought of adhesive, I thought of a solution that helps a substance stick to another, not on top of a substance, but I'm fine with how the adhesive is applied, and works.

My problem was that the adhesive, (see thumbnail above), bubbles after washing, and reduces the richness of color beneath it. I noticed this especially on the black color. It, (the adhesive), was transparent when I initially presses the transfer.

My other concern was that they put the adhesive in areas where ink wasn't present. (see thumbnail above)

I have a brand new Hix 16X20 Swingman 20D press, so It's definitely not the press.

I've tried to contact the manufacturer about this, via e-mail, with no reply, so I'll have to contact them via phone, to resolve this problem.

Thanks for your input, I appreciate It.

Bless,
Jim


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## Rodney (Nov 3, 2004)

jimhack3 said:


> Thanks JB and David. Monday I'm going to call them and see If they can correct the problem. I will keep you updated on the outcome. I plan to mention that I found their information on the T-shirt Forum, and I feel obligated to inform my fellow shirt decorating members of the outcome of this situation.
> 
> Bless,
> Jim


I think that working this situation out with the company is the best way to handle it. If it doesn't get handled to your satisfaction, then you can post in the thread where you heard about them that you wouldn't recommend them.

No need to tell the company you are going to "post about them", as that shouldn't factor into their customer service duties or your business dealings with them.


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## AET graphics (Mar 26, 2007)

Hi Jim,

This is our first post on a forum. It was brought to our attention by a good and loyal customer that frequents this forum. 

I want to address the two issues – the number of transfers and the adhesive problem.

1. The whole image had a distressed effect and had two colors that needed to be registered to near hair line perfection, so it was a little tricky especially on transfer paper. Towards the end, the line with your band was taped off by accident as they taped off a pin hole that developed during printing. As a result, we were one short. You notified us it was two, so we immediately sent out 5 the next day. 
2. The adhesive issue. Hot splits do not need adhesive, unlike cold peel. However, we have found that some (1% of our customers) do have issues with bubbling if there is no adhesive. We believe the bubbling results from a combination of temperature or pressure issues (generally not enough of one or a combination of both), not whether or not a heat press is new. As a result, we offer a free coat of liquid adhesive for hot splits. Customers who have chosen to have an additional adhesive on their hot splits have not had an issue at all till this past week. I am sorry it had to be you and apologize for the inconvenience. When the film was created for the adhesive, the artist covered the whole artwork with a 2 point covering the whole image. As you know, we have already agreed to redo the whole job and rush it to you before the week is over so you do not have to trim it (I agree that would be ridiculous). Screen printing has always been an art and not an exact science. The clear areas should have been knocked out. The bubbling should be taken care of if you follow what I told you this morning and increase the temperature/time/pressure. Heat presses do vary in real temperature, so some initial experimentation is often necessary so each customer can find what works best with his/her press. That is why we have a suggested range on the time, and temperature values. Just because a transfer looks fine after transferring, doesn’t mean it has adhered to the fibers of the shirt like it should. That is why we also recommend wash testing the transfers to make sure you are getting the result you want.

There is a quick option for you – you can choose not to have adhesive and use the standard hot splits like everyone else. Since we do not have a proprietary ink (we use the standard Wilflex hot split inks), I would recommend you do that and not have the adhesive issue. If this is acceptable to you, call us. I hate to have to resolve issues like this in public, since other forum members do not know everything that transpires over phone and email. They only get bits and pieces of a story. Over the phone, you seemed pleased with my proposal to fix the job ASAP and redo the job completely to your satisfaction, so this thread has come as a complete surprise to me. Again, I regret having to address this in public. 

Again, I wish to express how sorry we are to have caused you such inconvenience.

With best regards,

Allan


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## MotoskinGraphix (Apr 28, 2006)

Well done Allan and AET graphics...welcome to T-Shirt forums. I thought you would take care of the customer as you have offered to do. It would be great if you could give advice every now and then on plastisol transfers as many folks new to them are having different problems. It is always good to have the knowledge from someone who actually makes the damned things. Could you tell me what the difference between adheasive coating and the adheasive crystals?


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## AET graphics (Mar 26, 2007)

MotoskinGraphix said:


> Well done Allan and AET graphics...welcome to T-Shirt forums. I thought you would take care of the customer as you have offered to do. It would be great if you could give advice every now and then on plastisol transfers as many folks new to them are having different problems. It is always good to have the knowledge from someone who actually makes the damned things. Could you tell me what the difference between adheasive coating and the adheasive crystals?


Hi Moto,

Not to derail this thread but it is on topic so...

The adhesive crystals are for cold peel. They are those darn gritty things that you get. Personally we are not too crazy with those but are industry "standard". It is just easier because after printing the transfers, they are simply run through the power and run through the dryer but they get everywhere. If they are pressed too long, it make the image a little blurred.

We prefer the liquid adhesive - these you have to burn an extra screen, need an extra film and print as another color. It is what it sounds like - a liquid adhesive that gels in heat. it dosn't rub off and is better in my opinion. Well in "our" . We have been doing that to make sure our customers get the best transfers -we do not charge different prices for hot and cold peel - to make it simple for our custoemr to price their stuff but hot split have traditionally been eaiser - not traps, no powder etc - except we went the extra mile and applied the extra coat to hot split. We cannot afford to do that anymore as we did that for a year to test the results. The good thing is the liquid is more forgiving on the image and lets it stay sharper and also more importantly less messy with gritty glue crystals all over your finger nails (not good for eating sandwiches afterwards, I heard)

Prior to that, when the hot splits when applied incorrectly - I don't mean in a negligent way by the printer (you), but when the heat is inconsistent or is not really what it says it is - they will bubble because it has not adhere to the fabric completely. The liquid adhesive compensates for that. That is why I found it strange that the adhesive is bubbling.

I am sure Jim is folowing the instructions the best he can but most times, it is cinch for our customers but once in a while, they have to learn to dance with their heat press. I am not trying to blame the presses but if it bubbles, it's one of the two, temp or pressure.

Are there any questions regarding adhesives or transfers in particular you would like to know? I will try my best to answer them.

Peace

Allan

note: we will have other alternative soon to the current digital and screen print transfers we offer. There are many things to consider like number of colors, the registration factor, what color garment it is going onto, how many etc. Some are better than others depending on those variables.


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## T-BOT (Jul 24, 2006)

welcome and thanks for posting Allan.  

We to prefer to use the screen printed adhesives also.

But

Here is a problem we found with them a few years back. 
This is to give the heads up for t-shirt graphic designers that are planning to use adhesives.


For some strange reason when using adhesives on a BLACK outline of a design and the design/transfer is printed on a black shirt, after the first wash the Black outline becomes glossy like and noticeble against the Black color of the shirt.

So, as a solution we try not to add adhesive to that area (the black outline) of the design.


Have you or any other member encountered this problem ? ...a fix for it would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance.


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## MotoskinGraphix (Apr 28, 2006)

Allan,
I use several different stock transfers from Airwaves, Wildside etc all being Hot-split or Hot-Peel. I hear a lot of talk about adheasives, stretch formulations, special inks for shorter dwells and various other special ingrediants for different purposes. I print on primarily black tees and purchase transfers that will generally print on all colors. To your knowledge do these major stock transfer companys use adheasives or special formulations to produce the transfers they market in mass. The stock transfers work quite well and if I am ordering custom Hot-split or Hot-peel do I need anything out of the ordinary for printing on lites and darks?


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## Rodney (Nov 3, 2004)

> This is our first post on a forum. It was brought to our attention by a good and loyal customer that frequents this forum.


Hi Allan, I just wanted to welcome you to the forum and thank you for posting such great information about the process. It's nice to have more knowledgeable members with plastisol transfer printing experience.

Hope this job works out for all involved.


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## jimhack3 (Jan 23, 2007)

> There is a quick option for you – you can choose not to have adhesive and use the standard hot splits like everyone else. Since we do not have a proprietary ink (we use the standard Wilflex hot split inks), I would recommend you do that and not have the adhesive issue. If this is acceptable to you, call us. I hate to have to resolve issues like this in public, since other forum members do not know everything that transpires over phone and email. They only get bits and pieces of a story. Over the phone, you seemed pleased with my proposal to fix the job ASAP and redo the job completely to your satisfaction, so this thread has come as a complete surprise to me. Again, I regret having to address this in public


Hello Allan,

I'm pleased that we've worked this out. I think that AET has great customer service, and is customer oriented. You patiently listened to my concerns, and clearly addressed all of the issues that I had, and solved them. 

I apologize for jumping the gun. I wish that I could have spoke to you in the beginning. It was my understanding from the information that I recieved prior to spaeking with you, that my concerns weren't going to be properly addressed. This is why I called AET Monday morning. After speaking to you Allan, I felt that there would be a positive outcome. I Thank you for all Allan.
And you have a customer for Life!!!

I actually have more to say about your service @`AET, but I must retire for tonight. I will let all t-shirtforums.com members know that If you want great transfers with great customer service, go to AET first!

I hope to one day visit your plant, and sit down and have some fufu, or banku with you.

GOD Bless,
Jim


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## AET graphics (Mar 26, 2007)

T-BOT said:


> welcome and thanks for posting Allan.
> 
> We to prefer to use the screen printed adhesives also.
> 
> ...


I have not had that come to my attention in particular - just that when you use adhesive, you get a glossier look instead of the rougher texture you would with "traditional" hot-splits where the texture is due to ink splitting. The adhesive gels and allows for a smoother finish and refracts light differently.

That would be my guess.

We have a glossy paper for high gloss effect and essentially, the very thin coating allows for a smoother finish - which is from light refraction.

A solution for you would be not to apply adhesive behind the black. Yo have to make a judgement call on adhesive versus the longevity. But nothing last.


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## AET graphics (Mar 26, 2007)

MotoskinGraphix said:


> Allan,
> I use several different stock transfers from Airwaves, Wildside etc all being Hot-split or Hot-Peel. I hear a lot of talk about adheasives, stretch formulations, special inks for shorter dwells and various other special ingrediants for different purposes. I print on primarily black tees and purchase transfers that will generally print on all colors. To your knowledge do these major stock transfer companys use adheasives or special formulations to produce the transfers they market in mass. The stock transfers work quite well and if I am ordering custom Hot-split or Hot-peel do I need anything out of the ordinary for printing on lites and darks?


I wouldn't know exactly what they do but you names a few, the stretch additive, adhesive etc.

The stock transfers produced en mass are usually offset printed. That is why there is a 500 piece minimum. The inks are usually hot splits. For darks, there is a puff base and an adhesive. That causes a very pixillated effect/halftone. It is usually process unless they want to play around with simulated process.

We offer different solutions and in that case, our partners in China will print those process transfers for us. The resolution is out of this world. it is magazine quality. We have stuff for lord of the rings, and ice age etc. But the turnaround time is a little longer. We want to speciallize in the fast customized part in the US office.

If you are printing on lights AND darks, then order transfer as thought they are for darks. They would either put a puff base to make it more opaue or an underbase or print on a white base etc. 

Unless they are making their own inks which is possible but I cannot be sure, we get our inks for hot splits from pretty much the few manufacturers of ink out there.

All companies would like to have/develope a competitive edge so they many use a combination of techniques, additives, adhesives etc to stand out. It's normal and should be encourage to do so. Screen printing is an artform. As such, no one company can satisfy ALL customers. Some like a glossier feel, some like more textured, some want it to last longer and otehr want a softer feel and don't care how long it last etc.


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## AET graphics (Mar 26, 2007)

Rodney said:


> Hi Allan, I just wanted to welcome you to the forum and thank you for posting such great information about the process. It's nice to have more knowledgeable members with plastisol transfer printing experience.
> 
> Hope this job works out for all involved.


 
Thanks for the welcome.

Peace 

Allan


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## AET graphics (Mar 26, 2007)

jimhack3 said:


> Hello Allan,
> 
> I'm pleased that we've worked this out. I think that AET has great customer service, and is customer oriented. You patiently listened to my concerns, and clearly addressed all of the issues that I had, and solved them.
> 
> ...


Don't worry about jumping the guns. It's your business and you need to worry about stuff like that.

Just be patient with us. I wish we were omnipotent but unfortunately we make mistakes and are not perfect.

Take care, Jim. You will be taken care of.

Peace

Allan


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## UncleCrack (Nov 3, 2008)

To me it looks like they used a clear underbase but didnt knock out those spots and sprinkled the adhesive on the underbase layer. Thats how I make mine but they didnt make the underbase screen correctly.


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