# Digitizing question



## Louie2010 (Feb 26, 2010)

I have read that when you send off a name and logo to a professional digitizer you should specify what garment and fabric you will be embroidering on.

My question is what if it will be a variety? What if you might be selling them shirts and caps? Or later on want to try and follow up with selling them a different shirt, or a jacket, or bag or something else?

I have read where caps need to sew from the center out, is that always best for shirts? How big a problem with caps is it if it sews left to right?

From what I have observed most places only charge a customer a one time digitizing fee and the keep it on file. I don't expect a customer would want to keep paying additional fees, and it wouldn't be very profitable for me to eat the cost of additional fees.

How do others deal with this issue? What am I missing?

Thanks in advance for your help.


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## ShirlandDesign (Nov 29, 2009)

Ideally, densities and approaches are best suited to a specific garment or substrate. If you think about the larger corporate runs, say 1,000 Cutter and Buck jackets with a wholesale price tag of 15K to 20K or more, the $6o to $70 dollars to digitize for them specifically, to ensure optimum quality, is not a large part of the price tag for the run. 
In practice nearly everybody wants to use the same digitizing on all of the garments they buy. So the sewing shops usually have software to "tweak" the design if necessary. You can run a design on a synthetic brief case that doesn't need backing and will support the stitches just fine. Try and put the same thing on a towel and it just won't look very good. As far as the center out approach to hats, it is industry standard so there must be a good reason for doing it. In my own experience (12 years doing contract work) it works about half the time. I can't imagine not being able to adjust on the fly in order to achieve reliable and consistent results. Every piece you sew is a "one off" in a way. 85% of what a shop does to achieve a quality product or service is formula. The last 15% is done on the fly by feel.  83.675% percent of all statistics are made up on the spot.


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## Louie2010 (Feb 26, 2010)

ShirlandDesign said:


> Ideally, densities and approaches are best suited to a specific garment or substrate. If you think about the larger corporate runs, say 1,000 Cutter and Buck jackets with a wholesale price tag of 15K to 20K or more, the $6o to $70 dollars to digitize for them specifically, to ensure optimum quality, is not a large part of the price tag for the run.
> In practice nearly everybody wants to use the same digitizing on all of the garments they buy. So the sewing shops usually have software to "tweak" the design if necessary. You can run a design on a synthetic brief case that doesn't need backing and will support the stitches just fine. Try and put the same thing on a towel and it just won't look very good. As far as the center out approach to hats, it is industry standard so there must be a good reason for doing it. In my own experience (12 years doing contract work) it works about half the time. I can't imagine not being able to adjust on the fly in order to achieve reliable and consistent results. Every piece you sew is a "one off" in a way. 85% of what a shop does to achieve a quality product or service is formula. The last 15% is done on the fly by feel.  83.675% percent of all statistics are made up on the spot.


Thanks so much for the help. So what is the best way to start? I am new to this, what do I do when ordering logos from a digitizer that will probably be used for shirts and caps but the orders will be small?

I purchased a Brother PR-650 and did buy their digitizing software, PE-Design 8. I figured I would use it when creating text only jobs. I have no idea how to "tweak" a professionally done logo as you mention. I am sure I would mess it up rather than improve on it.

I guess I am asking is what do most people do when they don't know anything about digitizing? Is there a safer way of starting? Specify digitizing for shirts, and then hope it works out for caps? Or specify for caps and hope it works out OK for the shirts?

One more question if you don't mind. You mentioned density. I have noticed on the PE-Design I can adjust density. What exactly does more or less density mean, and when should I adjust it to more or less?

Sorry for so many beginner type questions, there is much to learn.


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## JAF (Oct 12, 2008)

IMO and if you don't want to tweak designs, I would go for caps and pique. 
Density is how close (dense) the stitches are. A delicate linen hankie would need less density. While a towel would need more density. Embroidering towels is a whole different subject. Don't depend on density to solve your stitching issues in this case.
I feel that you need to learn how to make some adjustments to your designs. If your customer wanted this design on nylon you would need to cut back on your pull comp, perhaps the underlay and probably on the density. It will save you time and money if you can do this yourself.
Most digitizers will tweak designs for a small fee. It is always good to have your designs digitized in your native language. ie...I have Pulse and if I use a digitizer I would what my files digitized in .pxf, that way I can adjust my "outline" file and save it to .dst for use on the embroidery machine.
I hope I haven't confused you with my explaination.


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## 24hours-digitize (Mar 28, 2010)

Louie2010 said:


> I have read that when you send off a name and logo to a professional digitizer you should specify what garment and fabric you will be embroidering on.
> 
> My question is what if it will be a variety? What if you might be selling them shirts and caps? Or later on want to try and follow up with selling them a different shirt, or a jacket, or bag or something else?
> 
> ...


 Dear friend,
I can manage your problems properly,not so complex ,just send me your logo and where you want it to be ,or simply tell me the size you hope it to be ,then I can deal with it properly,If you trust me ,just contact me [email protected] Waiting for your reply.


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## ShirlandDesign (Nov 29, 2009)

If you rely on other people to simplify things, you will always be reliant on other people. And unfortunately most people are given what the client wants sewn, so there is no controlling that. It's not really all that complicated. Even so after years of doing it you will probably still learn something new regularly. 

The two things that fairly often need tweaking are push pull compensation and density. If you have a good digitizer the "tape" will work most of the time on most things.

Push pull is the tendency for the sewing to elongate "push" when stitches are placed next to one another like in a fill, and pull means the stitches shrink "pull" because a stitch is actually a knot being pulled tight. On stock lettering I generally always add 20% column width just to get a normal look to the letters. The columns pull in and make the letters look to skinny otherwise. So the problem comes when you have a fill bordered with a running stitch or a column. Lets say you have a perfectly round circle of fill on the screen bordered with a column around the outside of it. If not compensated for push and pull the two won't line up right. Density is expressed by a number denoting the distance between stitches. The lower the number, the less distance between, or the more stitches in a given area. For really small letters you don't need as many stitches to make the letter, and too many will cause the design to load up with thread and cause thread breaks and other problems. I imagine their are tons of Yuotube videos that could teach it better than I can explain it. 
Finally, center out digitizing for hats. Even if you get the circle with the outline to sew perfectly on a polo, it may loose registration on a cap. This is due to the play a cap has in it when sewing. Think about starting a line of text on the far left side of the cap and sewing for 4 inches in a straight line across the the cap. As the presser foot moves across the cap it will force a bulge of material to accumulate in front of it as it goes. When the bulge hits the middle of the cap it will typically jump and straighten out, leaving a gap in between letters or words. If you start the line in the center and move out to the side of the cap it usually helps. For me stableizing the material of the cap works more reliably. usually. 
Problem designs usually need to be adjusted at the time for a given situation. Again with a good digitizer, most designs will work on most things.

We usually take a design from the digitizer and do a sew out. Watch how it sews and why things work or don't work. Adjust the few small things when needed and learn as you go. The folks here are eager to advise when something doesn't.  p.s. hope I didn't sound to long winded or full of myself.


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## Prinsz (Oct 6, 2008)

great comment there John!


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## lizziemaxine (Nov 14, 2007)

ShirlandDesign said:


> If you rely on other people to simplify things, you will always be reliant on other people. And unfortunately most people are given what the client wants sewn, so there is no controlling that. It's not really all that complicated. Even so after years of doing it you will probably still learn something new regularly.
> 
> The two things that fairly often need tweaking are push pull compensation and density. If you have a good digitizer the "tape" will work most of the time on most things.
> 
> ...


Excellent information. Great explanation. Thanks for posting.


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## Louie2010 (Feb 26, 2010)

ShirlandDesign said:


> If you rely on other people to simplify things, you will always be reliant on other people. And unfortunately most people are given what the client wants sewn, so there is no controlling that. It's not really all that complicated. Even so after years of doing it you will probably still learn something new regularly.
> 
> The two things that fairly often need tweaking are push pull compensation and density. If you have a good digitizer the "tape" will work most of the time on most things.
> 
> ...


 
Thanks for such a detailed answer. When you say that _"Again with a good digitizer, most designs will work on most things."_ do you mean work on say both caps and polo's? or do you generally have to order digitizing for caps separate? 

Do most people have to pay for two digitizing cost in order to fulfill an order for shirts and caps?


Thanks again to everyone who has answered. I appreciate it.


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## ShirlandDesign (Nov 29, 2009)

With caps any design over 2.25" inches tall or 4.5" wide is kind of pushing the limits of the substrate. Also doing letters under 1/4" tall on a cap starts getting problematic. Having said that over the years I have done a lot of the same designs on both caps and flats. Most clients hate to pay for the same design twice and just don't understand that a piece of embroidery is a 3 dimensional construct, not a 2D print. The underlay is designed like the foundation of a house, to support the structure on top, and that different fabrics are like different soils that require different considerations. Over all, unless it is a "problem or tricky" piece of sewing, provided it will fit the cap usually it will work. Clients hate maybes. The larger sales outfits we sewed for usually wanted a piece sewn to get an o.k. first anyway. The bad news was when a design you knew was pushing it for a cap sewed great. In a production run things vary. You might just have gotten lucky, but the client will expect that piece to be comparable to any in the run. Today's miracle is tommarows status quo. The the two things that differentiate between a good digitizer and a $10 no matter what offshore production mill, is that a good punchers got your back. The one we used I don't think ever gave us something that wouldn't work and work in a production friendly way. Offshore typically gives you what you ask for even if you ask for something you shouldn't. Penny wise and pound foolish. And production friendly can't be over emphasized. Walking with a running stitch from place to place instead of trimming. No more color changes than necessary. Thoughtful underlay. Using a stitch proximity filter to cut down on thread breaks. Using different angles of fill to model the light in 3 dimensions (that's a real art to do well). Asking if you really want 6 point Times Roman sewn with a running stitch, and then being able to pull it off if you insist. And lastly giving you a voice of absolute authority so that when your clients ask, and they will, for something that won't work you can say "my digitizer has 12 years experience designing for national accounts and ad agencies, it's his or her recomendation that we make these modifications in order to have a clean production run. We will do exactly as you ask if that is what you want, be we take no liability for the results"
When I first started doing this in the mid 90's I was young (for my age), dumb and had the courage of my convictions. A really unfortunate combination. The upside was a complete lack of the kind of angst you are experiencing. The upside for you is that you want to benefit from others mistakes. You'll learn so much quicker than I did.


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## Prinsz (Oct 6, 2008)

Nicely said,
So the next question is who is your digitizer?

greetings from the Netherlands


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## Louie2010 (Feb 26, 2010)

ShirlandDesign said:


> With caps any design over 2.25" inches tall or 4.5" wide is kind of pushing the limits of the substrate. Also doing letters under 1/4" tall on a cap starts getting problematic. Having said that over the years I have done a lot of the same designs on both caps and flats. Most clients hate to pay for the same design twice and just don't understand that a piece of embroidery is a 3 dimensional construct, not a 2D print. The underlay is designed like the foundation of a house, to support the structure on top, and that different fabrics are like different soils that require different considerations. Over all, unless it is a "problem or tricky" piece of sewing, provided it will fit the cap usually it will work. Clients hate maybes. The larger sales outfits we sewed for usually wanted a piece sewn to get an o.k. first anyway. The bad news was when a design you knew was pushing it for a cap sewed great. In a production run things vary. You might just have gotten lucky, but the client will expect that piece to be comparable to any in the run. Today's miracle is tommarows status quo. The the two things that differentiate between a good digitizer and a $10 no matter what offshore production mill, is that a good punchers got your back. The one we used I don't think ever gave us something that wouldn't work and work in a production friendly way. Offshore typically gives you what you ask for even if you ask for something you shouldn't. Penny wise and pound foolish. And production friendly can't be over emphasized. Walking with a running stitch from place to place instead of trimming. No more color changes than necessary. Thoughtful underlay. Using a stitch proximity filter to cut down on thread breaks. Using different angles of fill to model the light in 3 dimensions (that's a real art to do well). Asking if you really want 6 point Times Roman sewn with a running stitch, and then being able to pull it off if you insist. And lastly giving you a voice of absolute authority so that when your clients ask, and they will, for something that won't work you can say "my digitizer has 12 years experience designing for national accounts and ad agencies, it's his or her recomendation that we make these modifications in order to have a clean production run. We will do exactly as you ask if that is what you want, be we take no liability for the results"
> When I first started doing this in the mid 90's I was young (for my age), dumb and had the courage of my convictions. A really unfortunate combination. The upside was a complete lack of the kind of angst you are experiencing. The upside for you is that you want to benefit from others mistakes. You'll learn so much quicker than I did.


 
Thanks once again for such a helpful answer. It sounds like finding the right digitizer when starting out can make all the difference in the world.


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## oneill (Mar 6, 2008)

Louie2010 said:


> Thanks once again for such a helpful answer. It sounds like finding the right digitizer when starting out can make all the difference in the world.


You are absolutley correct, when it comes to digitizing it's not about price, it's about quality. Don't worry about making money on the digitizing, if you embroider a great sewout you'll keep making money on repeat orders. Customers won't leave unless you miss a deadline or sell them shady work. Insure Quality then Turnaround Time then Price will be justified.


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## ShirlandDesign (Nov 29, 2009)

Also a digitizer who does production friendly work will pay for themselves in the amount of time you save. It is amazing how the cost of inefficient sewing adds up. The same goes for all those annoying little snags in a slightly out of tune machine.


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## Prinsz (Oct 6, 2008)

Ok but does this all mean there are no good digitizers overseas?
No disrespect just want to learn.
But there is a lot embroidered there probably more than anywhere else.So they must have some good digitizers?


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## JAF (Oct 12, 2008)

Years ago I have tried a couple from overseas but I wasn't happy. Although, I'm sure that there are some very good digitizer. I just never found one.
I've been told that some digitizing companies, in the US, will use overseas digitizers. Now, after years in the business, I realize that I would prefer to use a company that is not only based in the US but uses US digitizers.


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## Prinsz (Oct 6, 2008)

I understand if all of us did that there was less recession I believe.
But 20 Us per 1000 stitches is a lot of money.
I don't mind but my customers do.
And I understand the money a digitizer has to make per hour is a lot higher than in Asia.
So again no disrespect


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## ShirlandDesign (Nov 29, 2009)

I'm sure there are plenty of good punchers overseas, its a big place But I'm not sure if you can count on getting the same level of care every time, differant punchers, and sew on (excuse the pun). Also they tend to follow your requests verbatim. I always feel like an as trying to qualify my time time doing this but I have spent years doing contract work, lots of clients, lots of sales reps per client, lots of companies per rep, lots of designs per company, lots of Dalco, Stahls, DaKota Collectibles, not to mention I have been facory trained (years ago) and have spent some time punching myself. Overwhelmingly the outfits that tried to pinch pennies by using bargain punching had poor results and lost customers. There are three ways to learn 1) because someone like me said so (the worst way) 2) inference, the stove looks hot, the hamburger is cooking on it, I bet if I put my hand on the stove it would cook also, and 3) experience, what you get when you don't get what you want. The very best, most expensive teacher. I've always tried to pinch pennies there. I read this forum everyday and thank the powers that be for it. P.S. if I did come off sounding like a know it all kind of as I apologize in advance.


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## Prinsz (Oct 6, 2008)

haha clear!


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## Louie2010 (Feb 26, 2010)

Thanks again for every one's advice, it has been very helpful.


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## ShirlandDesign (Nov 29, 2009)

One last thing, specifically for Rene in the Netherlands. What I said does not take into account currency exchange rates. I have no idea what it would be between your country and mine. It might make buying U.S. digitizing cost prohibitive for the Dutch. Also Europe has a long tradition of crafting we would struggle to compete with. I would bet Amsterdam has digitizers as good as anywhere in the world. I am promoting buying somewhat local as opposed to the larger production mills. Sorry for not taking this in to consideration earlier.
We try to be politically correct here in McAmerica, but damned if we (I) don't see the world through American eyes. Oddly enough half of my family is eastern European (Latvian). P.S. my Grandfather sailed a small boat from Hamburg to the Netherlands during the war and bought penicillin on the black market to save my grandmother from a terrible infection. In a way I guess I owe the Dutch for my life.


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## zoom_monster (Sep 20, 2006)

Prinsz said:


> Ok but does this all mean there are no good digitizers overseas?
> No disrespect just want to learn.
> But there is a lot embroidered there probably more than anywhere else.So they must have some good digitizers?


I've seen some very good, efficient stuff come from the far east, I've also seen really horrible designs. If you understand what good digitizing is, you can find good stuff at a wide range of prices. If you have a good digitizer, they can also steer you into a set-up that is cost effective for you and your customer. People buying just on price because a customer will walk if they have to pay a $50 set-up are not finding the right solution. Because, someone will work for a lower wage, doesn't make it right for me to employ them... especially if I'm a person who is trying to compete on quality. You can really set yourself appart from most of your competition if you employ local when possible(wherever you are) and pay a little extra for quality. Sometimes you have to show people what quality is.

Ian


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## Prinsz (Oct 6, 2008)

I sent a logo to a price winning famous digitzer in the US.
costs 175 USD. I sttched it looks good.
I sent the same logo to Asia costs 10 USD stiched it looks good
Who in their right mind would pay the difference.
This not a little difference where you could say ok I like to employ people in my own country and they probably are better to talk to.
This difference is to big for a logo that looks good from both digitizers.
My customers would all think I am a thief when other shops would offer the asian logo and it looks good as well.
No disrespect but hey!


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## Liberty (Jul 18, 2006)

Noone should pay that big a difference but you should also consider the logo and design complexity before deciding who gets the job.

I digitize in house but I probably only do 75% of our digitizing. There are some things that just make sense to outsource. The same is true for the embroidery, or the screen printing or the engraving or the applique cutting or payroll processing or whatever task it is. I make business decisions everyday to maximize my profitability AND to maximize my marketability.

Lets face it, the overwhelming majority of the jobs we do on a daily basis do not mandate absolute perfection and they are _not that complicated_. It is equally important that you consider pricing in your marketing strategies. If you tell every customer that calls that you need to see the art to quote a digitizing fee or to quote the final shirt cost, you'll be dead in the water on most jobs.

Look at what the big guys do. Take Lands End or 4 imprint for example. Flat fee or "free" digitizing and one price out the door for the shirt with logo. 4imprint now advertises no stitch count hassles, if it fits in the designated embroidery area, it is stitched for the same price. If you are going to play those games you must control your costs and the best way to do that on a day-in and day-out basis is through outsourcing to an off shore digitizer. It is just a fact of life these days. Labor and overhead costs are what they are.

I personally have several digitizers I outsource to. One is a US broker for off shore punchers. I get an english speaking contact that answers the phone or e-mail during US business hours and to date they have been responsive to every issue. They do reasonable quality work at a reasonable flat fee and I get overnight turnaround. If I have an "ordinary" logo, I send it to them if I don't do it myself.

I have another US digitizer that gets anything with fins, feathers or fur. Not cheap by any stretch but if the logo calls for it I quote the options to the customer. I may go months and never need his services.

I have another that is remarkable on caps. Best running cap digitizing anywhere. Now though, the price pressures on caps are incredible and more and more we send the entire job offshore. Thanks FedEx...

And yet another that gets really elaborate jacket backs or something that requires complex artistic treatments. Again, months go by where we don't need them.

One thing I have decided is that I will rarely send vector artwork to the offshore shops. I know, I know it does make things easier but it also adds a crutch that I feel is too often leaned upon. If I wanted point and stitch digitizing and auto TTF conversions, I'd do it myself. I may be wrong with this but I also think that when I send vector art, the design can easily go to the less experienced digitizer. When I send good raster art it likely needs someone with just a tad more experience. Again, just my observations.

One other thing that I think is absolutely a deal breaker... I punch and edit in wilcom and when I send something out for digitizing, I want a native wilcom EMB file so that any editing I need to do is easier AND so that I can see how things were done. This is an absolute must for me. If you are using Pulse, I feel your should look for pulse files etc....

And please, don't ask me who I use. No offense to anyone but I'm protective of my digitizing sources, especially in a public forum. We all sell the same shirts, same thread, same backing, same or simliar machines etc. The one thing that can set you apart from your competitors is your digitizing. No way I'm telling my competitors what has taken me years to get a handle on. Sorry. We just had a great thread that showcased a number of digitizers. Experiment away...



Prinsz said:


> Who in their right mind would pay the difference.
> quote]


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## Prinsz (Oct 6, 2008)

great reply but you said :''Lets face it, the overwhelming majority of the jobs we do on a daily basis do not mandate absolute perfection".
But in my case this was a logo with gradient/fountainfill and with BOTH digitizers it looked great.
I understand a lot of overseas digitizer are not good enough but what is considered a superb digitizer in the US didn't make a greater job than the one abroad. So that makes the choice easy considering the 150 usd the priced.
Just want to say there are very good digitizers out there that will work cheaper.
I understand a digitizer in the US needs to ask more money but that is not always based on quality at all but on the paycheck one needs to earn in the US.
Again if the difference wasn't this big I wouldn't go abroad and would let them earn what they are titled to But it is a huge difference in money and no difference in quality in this case so...


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## ShirlandDesign (Nov 29, 2009)

I don't think I got what it was that was digitized for $150 US. If it was a typical left chest 3-4 color 4500-6K stitch design it was priced at least 3 times higher than I would pay for a quality piece of digitizing. I think (having been humbled on the "overseas" aspect, and rightly so) that maybe it's all about having a relationship with the puncher.


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## Prinsz (Oct 6, 2008)

Left chest 8700 stitches 5 colors I chose the gold option they offer for high quality and super detail. Just to see what woul be the difference. So I am not angry at them or anything but it was once and no more


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## gnizitigid (Jan 23, 2007)

Less price do not mean less quality, i charge 10 usd per design with top qtality


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## Prinsz (Oct 6, 2008)

I am beginning to think you are right.
Expensive does not always mean better quality and cheap does not always work of course.
just have to look good.


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## stitch27 (Dec 1, 2010)

There are some very nice digitizing companies located overseas, Very few put their own address in the fist place so dont go by the made in USA label. and the best way to identify them is by the quality of their sew outs,In 100 companies you will find only 10 who provide you with a sewout, In those 10 there will be 1 or at most 2 who will even bother to sew out an edit request, Web testimonials can never be relied on, Talk to the person & see his sew out that way you will be able to identify any good oversees digitizer.


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## gnizitigid (Jan 23, 2007)

stitch27 said:


> Web testimonials can never be relied on.


Agree with you....but if you read good things on forums, it means work is good of that digitizer.....


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## Riph (Jan 11, 2011)

Louie- My advice is to learn to digitize. Yes I know that sounds daunting. 

I am small, started out this year, much like you. To learn to embroider without controlling how the design is digitized, well, I can't see how you are really learning that much. So, no disrespect to the professional digitizers, but I think a guy running his own shop has to understand digitizing. 

Maybe down the road, you will be so busy that you need to subcontract it, but at the beginning, I would say learn to do it yourself. It's a harder road, but you'll be a better embroiderer for it.

Once you know the basics, you will be able to communicate much better with subcontractors as well.

Of course, I'm a control freak. 

best of luck.

Randy
Lookout Mountain Logowear


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## skits (Jun 24, 2009)

Hi Riph,

Sorry no disrespect but my opinion says otherwise.

We are a large commission embroidery company which started over 25 years ago....during the time of paper punched tapes.....we are based in Kenya and our machines came from the UK. We were recommended to use a UK digitizing house for our digitizing needs.....we didn't have a software then so we were sending artworks by courier to the UK, they made the design and punched the tape and sent it back to us by courier at our cost...at that time the cost of digitizing we paid was £8.00 per 1000sts with delivery that took 2 weeks.....it was extremely expensive but since we were the first setup in the country we recovered our cost.....

but I have to say that being new to the industry and seeing how the UK digitizer made the designs and seeing them run on the machine, it taught me so many things which otherwise I would never have known. Yes we were lucky that they were good digitizers which is why I learnt and picked up a lot of secrets as opposed to poor quality designs.

So in my opinion I would suggest a newbie to look for a good quality digitizer and study their designs (the way they run, densities used, underlays used, etc etc)...and then learn to digitize by themselves.

Advantage is the newbie will learn the tips and tricks of digitizing and by outsourcing the newbie will atleast stand a chance to win orders by providing good quality designs whereas if a newbie started digitizing themselves, Im sure the quality of the finished embroidery will not be as good hence you will loose out on the order. so looking at the bigger picture I would rather spend that few extra $$ by outsourcing good quality designs and atleast get my machines working and start getting an income and building a reputation for good quality designs and service.

Disadvantage is that initial outsourcing will cost money. But is that money worth spending is something that will depend on how much you pick up from outsourcing.

Hope this makes sense.


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## gnizitigid (Jan 23, 2007)

skits said:


> We are a large commission embroidery company which started over 25 years ago....
> 
> Disadvantage is that initial outsourcing will cost money. But is that money worth spending is something that will depend on how much you pick up from outsourcing.
> Hope this makes sense.


Hey Rish......me Steve here....was not known that you are so much old in business...its nice to know..

I agree that first thing is reputation among your community....and that come through good business practices and services...


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