# Business Ethics Issues :(



## airraidapparel (Jul 6, 2007)

Hey guys, I have a problem that I'd like some insight on from my buddies here at TSF. 

Well, I primarily just do printing and clothing-related work. A local business consultant who works in a business program at my college started meeting with me about my business (because it's his job to) and noticed that I do graphic design. He then asked if I'd be interested in doing graphic design for him and some of his clients. I agreed and he gave me a few jobs to do. Two of these jobs were for his own business, and took 4-5 hours of work to complete. When we agreed upon all the changes made to the image, we set up a meeting today to finalize everything. In my head, "finalizing" things meant delivering the product and receiving payment. We did not discuss any terms before I started the work (which is my fault); but he assumed for some reason that the work for him would be free. He basically said that he wanted to see how I worked and if I was responsible enough (which I understand), but that the work would be complimentary? 

So I had a slightly heated discussion with him about the issue and how I didn't know that it was supposed to be for free; and he says that he doesn't want to take advantage of me and he'll pay for it if he has to, but that would harm our business relationship. Simple explanation: If I make him pay for the work I did for him, he won't give me any more work. 

This strikes me as manipulation and seems very unfair and unethical. I understand the "long term benefits" of working with him, I guess, but time is money and I worked insanely hard on the work I did for him. 

What do you guys think I should do? Demand money and harm the business relationship? or sit back and let him keep my work for free and maintain the business relationship (which I think was damaged by the arguement and my newfound mistrust of him)? Be honest though guys, this thing's got me really down. 

Thanks everyone


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## paulo (Dec 13, 2006)

airraidapparel said:


> So I had a slightly heated discussion with him about the issue and how I didn't know that it was supposed to be for free; and he says that he doesn't want to take advantage of me and he'll pay for it if he has to, but that would harm our business relationship. Simple explanation: If I make him pay for the work I did for him, he won't give me any more work.


In the long term do you really want to be conducting business with someone that conducts business the way he has?


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## airraidapparel (Jul 6, 2007)

paulo said:


> In the long term do you really want to be conducting business with someone that conducts business the way he has?


That's a really good point. I don't know if all of his business is conducted like that, but thus far I really don't feel like I can trust him.


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## paulo (Dec 13, 2006)

Oh BTW...can I get a free design...

If he doesn't pay you...who knows if he will even bring you more business...


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## airraidapparel (Jul 6, 2007)

paulo said:


> Oh BTW...can I get a free design...
> 
> If he doesn't pay you...who knows if he will even bring you more business...


Haha, I don't work free - but I do work inexpensively. He has a couple of jobs that I've been working on with little insight. Even with the little work I have from him, I'm still not making enough to cover my time with all the revisions. He goes to me for "budget" work, and I'm better than that.


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## Rodney (Nov 3, 2004)

> If I make him pay for the work I did for him, he won't give me any more work.


It doesn't sound like he's "giving" you anything. Except an opportunity to do free work for him.

What exactly is in this for you?



> We did not discuss any terms before I started the work


I would just let this deal go and move on.

In the future, ALWAYS discuss ALL terms and get it in writing before doing any work.

Never ASSUME.


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## sunnydayz (Jun 22, 2007)

I would not let someone manipulate me in that manner. If he does it now and gets away with it he will not respect you and you will not respect yourself. I would tell him you do not work for free and offer him a discounted rate maybe just as a show of faith that you are interested in future work with him but let him know this is a one time deal, with this discount and that because of the misunderstanding that all terms in the future would be discussed before work is made. That is just what I would do though  

Bobbie


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## airraidapparel (Jul 6, 2007)

Rodney said:


> It doesn't sound like he's "giving" you anything. Except an opportunity to do free work for him.
> 
> What exactly is in this for you?
> 
> ...


Yeah Rodney, you know what they say when we assume... 

But relating to the work I did, I still think I need to be compensated for it. Even though we didn't agree to any terms, no one should assume that anything is free unless it's agreed upon before it's done. Do you have any insight on this?


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## airraidapparel (Jul 6, 2007)

sunnydayz said:


> I would not let someone manipulate me in that manner. If he does it now and gets away with it he will not respect you and you will not respect yourself. I would tell him you do not work for free and offer him a discounted rate maybe just as a show of faith that you are interested in future work with him but let him know this is a one time deal, with this discount and that because of the misunderstanding that all terms in the future would be discussed before work is made. That is just what I would do though
> 
> Bobbie


Thank you so much for your reply Bobbie, it means a lot that people actually want to put their opinions in this and help me out. I think that's a really good way to go about it. What percentage of a discount would you offer?


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## Rodney (Nov 3, 2004)

> But relating to the work I did, I still think I need to be compensated for it. Even though we didn't agree to any terms, no one should assume that anything is free unless it's agreed upon before it's done. Do you have any insight on this?


You have two (or 3) choices: 

give him the work for free.

charge him for the work.

don't give him anything.

Of course you should be compensated for the work you've done. If he doesn't want to do that, then don't give him the designs.

If he thinks they should be free, then he should find another free designer.

Or, you can ask him to do work for you for free. Maybe an actual exchange that benefits both equally. Nothing wrong with an actual barter.


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## airraidapparel (Jul 6, 2007)

Rodney said:


> You have two (or 3) choices:
> 
> give him the work for free.
> 
> ...


I made the terrible mistake of letting him decide for me, he has one of the high res. files already. I know I should've thought it over, but people like that can be intimidating.


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## sunnydayz (Jun 22, 2007)

Rodney had a good point of bartering something from him. You just cant let people take advantage of you because once you do they will have no respect for you as a business person, stand up for yourself and you will have more self respect and most people will respect you more because you do. Alot of people will do first time discounts for future business from the customer, figure out something along those lines and because of the miscommunication it may benefit you both. 

Bobbie


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## Majestic Leper (Jun 24, 2007)

This guy is YOUR business consultant? Fire him if you pay him (hard to tell from what you said in your original post) if you don't value him as a contact.

BUT be aware that the only thing you spent was time, and that doesn't mean money, it's a bit different. He must be able to do something for you in return... maybe something that would require HIS time.

This could be a chance to get ahead. Piss him off: bad word of mouth. Please him: good word of mouth.

-MJ


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## Solmu (Aug 15, 2005)

airraidapparel said:


> This strikes me as manipulation and seems very unfair and unethical.


Exactly right. He tried to exploit you, and now he's trying to manipulate you. I don't believe this will lead to a mutually beneficial business relationship - he will continue to exploit you until you cut him loose, at which point he'll find another student and exploit them. He's a predator.


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## AustinJeff (May 12, 2007)

airraidapparel said:


> A local business consultant who works in a business program at my college started meeting with me about my business (because it's his job to) ....


This is a conflict of interest. He is abusing the power of his position. I can't imagine that any reputable college would want to have this guy on the payroll of a program that is supposed to be teaching students the right way to run a business. 

If it were me, this would be my fantasy scenario:

I write a letter to his supervisor at the college explaining exactly what happened. No opinions, just facts. That should be plenty. I would print it out on some nice paper, and also print a bill for the first order, as well a purchase order for a second larger purchase.

I would meet with him and give him the letter. When he reads it, as he nears the end, I would hand him the bill and the purchase order and tell him that I expect immediate payment and for him to sign the p.o. or I will send the letter.

He would hem and haw, but eventually agree. I would stick his check in my pocket, rip up the purchase order and tell him that I would never do business with him again. And that I had already mailed the letter before coming to the meeting.

And I would live happily ever after.

In the real world, I have found that although fun, it is a colossal waste of time and energy to try to humiliate or teach a lesson to someone who has wronged you.

I would probably just take the payment for the order, send the letter, and be done with it.


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## Solmu (Aug 15, 2005)

I definitely disagree with the above concessions people are recommending.

1) Don't offer him a discount, he doesn't deserve one. Either stand up for yourself and he'll respect you as a professional (proving he's not a predator) or he'll get angry (proving he is). If you give an inch, he'll make you give a foot. Stand firm.

2) Do not barter with him. That would be completely valid if this was just some business guy you'd met, but he's not. He's a consultant with your school, and he's meant to be doing a job. The job he's already meant to be doing is what he would barter to you in return for the designs that you don't owe him. He has nothing to barter with. Plus barter works better with peers, not authority figures who have a proven track record of trying to exploit you (and will vastly overvalue their own work while undervaluing yours).

To be blunt you were an idiot for not arranging payment terms up front (even other than this what happens when he says $50 and you say $150?), but that's behind you and not important any more. It was one mistake, it's not who you are. He's trying to intimidate you into compounding that mistake.


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## airraidapparel (Jul 6, 2007)

Solmu said:


> To be blunt you were an idiot for not arranging payment terms up front (even other than this what happens when he says $50 and you say $150?), but that's behind you and not important any more. It was one mistake, it's not who you are. He's trying to intimidate you into compounding that mistake.


I normally wouldn't have done business that way, I'm smarter than that. I assumed (this being the misjudgment - I wouldn't call myself an idiot, though.) that being a professional and working WITH the school that he'd have more integrity than he did; but once you start assuming that people are better than they are, that's when they truly prove that they aren't. I obviously see this as a huge mistake, and I'm still trying to decide what to do. 

From all the amazing feedback I've gotten from you guys, I'm thinking of basically doing the following:

I want to contact him and let him know that after thinking things over, I must be compensated for my time as I do not work for free. Upon receiving payment, I would assume contact to be lost between us; probably for the better. 

As suggested in an earlier post, if he's pulling things like this so early in the game, what true value does his partnership offer? The possible (if any) work he could give me is outweighed by the headaches and anxiety that working with him will cause. 

What do you guys think of this decision?


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## sunnydayz (Jun 22, 2007)

I must have missed that in the beginnings that this is through a school situation, in that situation he is definately taking advantage of his position and I would not give him the work without payment, although if I remember correctly you already gave him a file. I would promptly bill him for the work he has recieved let him know that if he expects to get other work you have done for him he will not recieve it without payment first. You are better to be done with this situation as quickly as possible and remember to take the lesson with you when you go. Remember that the best way about learning business is from experience and you just learned a very valuable lesson, never do work without a written agreement of what is expected on both sides.

Bobbie


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## Solmu (Aug 15, 2005)

airraidapparel said:


> I normally wouldn't have done business that way, I'm smarter than that.


I agree - you're not comfortable with how it turned out, and you're here to get support on what to do next - that shows you are smarter than that.



airraidapparel said:


> (this being the misjudgment - I wouldn't call myself an idiot, though.)


Just this once, we all do it sometimes 



airraidapparel said:


> I assumed being a professional and working WITH the school that he'd have more integrity than he did


You're right; we'll amend "idiot" to "naive" 



airraidapparel said:


> What do you guys think of this decision?


Makes sense. Whether or not you work for him in future probably depends on him more than anything (unless you just don't want to deal with him anymore, which would be fair); if he does just make sure you do something like get a deposit up front and balance on delivery, since you wouldn't want to trust him anymore.


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## TripleT (Apr 29, 2007)

Hi, Drew - The guy is a first class jerk, and he's using his position of authority to get some "free" artwork from you - truly a classless act. He will use you as long as you allow him too.

You do not have a business relationship with him, so there's nothing for you to lose. Forget about future jobs with him - unless you want more of the same. Do not give him any more artwork, and take the 4-5 hours of time you already wasted on him as a lesson.

I definitely would not write a letter, but I would document what happened. You didn't say, but if this "business consultant" is in a position to negatively influence your class grade - then I would take it up with your instructor (with the documentation) and ask him/her what your next step should be.

I would sum it up by saying: Forget about it, put it behind you and move-on. Good Luck!


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## prometheus (Oct 19, 2006)

I think you need to file a complaint with someone about him. I know that is hard to do. In the future, you need to really work out the details beforehand. And also not be afraid to stand up for yourself. If you don't , then this won't be the last post of someone walking all over you.


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## binki (Jul 16, 2006)

report him to the college for unethical behavior. that will get his attention.


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## Rodney (Nov 3, 2004)

AustinJeff said:


> This is a conflict of interest. He is abusing the power of his position. I can't imagine that any reputable college would want to have this guy on the payroll of a program that is supposed to be teaching students the right way to run a business.
> 
> If it were me, this would be my fantasy scenario:
> 
> ...


I like this fantasy option


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## JPD (Nov 8, 2006)

I vote for the fantasy option as well... 

But... I would make him pay and treat this as the best lesson any "business consultant" could ever teach you. He just showed you how cut-throat some people will be.

1) Give him a bill. If he pays you, make a copy of the check and frame it so you never forget what might happen.

2) Report him so it doesn't happen to someone else down the line.

3) Never, ever, work with him again.

4) See #3.

Let us know how it works out!!

Eric


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## TripleT (Apr 29, 2007)

The fantasy answer is great fun, but as AJ points out: 



> _In the real world, I have found that although fun, it is a colossal waste of time and energy to try to humiliate or teach a lesson to someone who has wronged you._


How true. There's not a snowball's chance in hell that this guy will do the right thing. Even if he pays out of fear of reprimand, he'll find a way to get even. It's not worth it.


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## airraidapparel (Jul 6, 2007)

TripleT said:


> The fantasy answer is great fun, but as AJ points out:
> 
> 
> 
> How true. There's not a snowball's chance in hell that this guy will do the right thing. Even if he pays out of fear of reprimand, he'll find a way to get even. It's not worth it.


I emailed him earlier this morning and basically told him that I re-evaluated the situation and that I can not justify working for free without agreeing to those terms before beginning the project. I gave him an exact amount to pay and said that I would be holding off on all other projects until this one is resolved. What he doesn't know is that I won't be taking work from him anymore, as I do not appreciate his ways of doing business and I find them to be more harmful than beneficial. I also spoke to the instructor that hired him, who became absolutely infuriated by the situation and wants to have a private meeting to get all of the facts - unbiased, of course. 

All in all, I never had a good feeling from this guy; he's been very condescending from the start and chalks himself up to be more than he really is. His cockyness is probably what fuels his assumed "power". I think I did the right thing. If he decides not to pay, so be it - but he's not going to use that artwork (without legal reprimand). I'm not afraid of possible slander from him, as I think it's a common opinion that he's pretty ingenuine. 

I guess all things happen for a reason, and this particular thing helped me learn about important business principals. Thanks for all your help guys, I really do appreciate the concern that you all have shown.

Drew


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## TripleT (Apr 29, 2007)

Good for you. It sounds like you've made an informed, rational decision about dealing with this mess. I'm glad to hear you told your instructor about it - that's the key to keep this on a professional and not an emotional level. Best of Luck!


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## Solmu (Aug 15, 2005)

airraidapparel said:


> I think I did the right thing.


You did.



airraidapparel said:


> If he decides not to pay, so be it


It sounds like at this point if he decides not to pay there's a decent chance he'll be fired (which he might be anyway), which would probably be some consolation at least.


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## karlking85 (Sep 26, 2007)

I certainly hope that it all works out for you, this guy is a class act, that's for sure. You did the right thing, and I hope that this doesn't happen to you again. I don't believe it will, as others may try the same, but you will be better prepared.

Do as the others said and just chalk it up to a lesson learned. 

Good luck to you man.


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## Buechee (Dec 22, 2005)

All money ain't good money. Don't work with him. If he did it once, he'll do it again.


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## peteVA (Nov 11, 2007)

Austin got it right.

He's taking advantage of his position.

How many others has he taken advantage of over the years? 

Contact your adviser at the college and let it play out. If you don't get satisfaction there, push further or contact the school or local newspaper, or the "on your side" TV guides who are always looking for scandal.

The guy is a worm, grind him under your heel. If you don't get paid when it all washes out, let us know, we'll take up a donation.
.


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## airraidapparel (Jul 6, 2007)

peteVA said:


> Austin got it right.
> 
> He's taking advantage of his position.
> 
> ...


After I told him that I wanted to be paid for my services, he sent me a long email (maybe I should post it!) telling me that now for some reason, he can't justify paying me. So, I'm pretty screwed now. Lots of hard work gone to waste I suppose, but a necessary lesson in business.


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## peteVA (Nov 11, 2007)

Forget the money.

Forget the excuses.

He took advantage of you. If he'd have grabbed you in an unappropriate place you'd turn him in. Well, he did, he grabbed you in your wallet.

He preyed on you, just as a adult would a child. Don't let him get away with it and move on to the next victim.

Turn him in. Forget the money, it's beyond that.

And if you turn him in they will probably make him pay you.
.


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## prometheus (Oct 19, 2006)

airraidapparel said:


> After I told him that I wanted to be paid for my services, he sent me a long email (maybe I should post it!) telling me that now for some reason, he can't justify paying me. So, I'm pretty screwed now. Lots of hard work gone to waste I suppose, but a necessary lesson in business.


Forward it to the school.


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## rmsigns (Oct 28, 2007)

drew, 
reread your second to last paragraph where it says it 'feels' like manipulation, that it's unfair and unethical. sounds like those are NOT qualities that you adhere too, i think that's your answer.
good luck 
m


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## sunnydayz (Jun 22, 2007)

prometheus said:


> Forward it to the school.


I totally agree Robert, forward the email to the school and explain what he did to you. If anything he will at least be put on notice so it doesnt happen to others.


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## Inever (Nov 19, 2007)

I feel your pain. Unfortunately over the years I have had to deal with several of these types of clients that feel that their time, company, profit margins somehow take precedence over ours. It has been my experience that standing firm for what is right has always paid off in the end... Demanding fair compensation for services rendered is your right and often will result in the client not only paying you but results in additional business as well. It's as if now all of a sudden you are seen as an equal instead of a "mark" to be preyed upon... 

Good Luck with this, you have gotten a lot of great advise and support here in the forums.

Best Regards,

Lee Shatto
http://www.inf-inet.com


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## Inever (Nov 19, 2007)

PS: I agree with forwarding all relevant information to the school, or initially divulging your intent to do so which may persuade him to reconsider compensating you for the work.


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## airraidapparel (Jul 6, 2007)

Thanks for all the help guys, I really appreciate it. Looks like I'll need to sell some extra tee's to make my time back.


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## HulaArt (Nov 14, 2007)

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the issue of copyright ownership here. If he never paid you, you still own the copyrights and designs. Even if you've never filed. 
If he had paid you, he would then own the designs.

I would submit a copyright form for the designs in the file you gave him. Then I would inform him that he is not permitted to use the designs because you own them, and request that he return the file.
Otherwise, if he intends on using the designs, he may file for copyright first, and then your options are deminished if not eliminated.


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## karlking85 (Sep 26, 2007)

Damn, that's true. Maybe I was too busy reading the thread to actually think of this, but I would definitely go for it, if you want legal recourse.


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## peteVA (Nov 11, 2007)

There are actually two different threads going on here.

One has to do with the money. 

The other has to do with the fact that he feels like he can manipulate you. And probably others, either in the past or in the future.

If you handle the advisor / student relationship with the school I'll bet the money will come.

Should you press for just the money with ot without using your copyrights, you may get your money, but he will still be in a position to prey on future students. 

If you concentrate fully on the money you may get paid, but you will allow him to go unpunished for his treatment of you (and possibly others). 

If you bring his taking advantage of a student while in an advisory position, you will probably get your money and also knok him down a few pegs. 

You can always get money, but retribution could be fleeting. Get it while you can.


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## Inever (Nov 19, 2007)

peteVA said:


> The other has to do with the fact that he feels like he can manipulate you. And probably others, either in the past or in the future.
> 
> If you handle the advisor / student relationship with the school I'll bet the money will come.
> 
> ...



VERY Good Points!


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## TripleT (Apr 29, 2007)

If you want to fight with a snake, you have to get down in the dirt and fight it out on their level. The 4 or 5 wasted hours will turn into 40 or 50 wasted hours, and in the end, this guy will not pay anyway, period! 

You can not grind these kind of people under your heel - they love this stuff! (That's what the long email is all about.) It's now a "He said, He said" issue.

Drew, if you post his email, he will turn this whole thing around and come after you. ("Oh poor, me - Look at what has happened - I tried to help this student and look at how he treated me - This is the thanks I get for trying to help...") 

Send the email to your instructor and to the administration at the school if you want - it is now part of your academic record. If they want to take action against him, they will. If they don't, then you know you would have lost anyway.

Sometimes, "you gotta know when to hold 'em and when to fold 'em." Everyone gets burned in business at one time or another. Good Luck!


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## peteVA (Nov 11, 2007)

If everyone always folded (also referred to as turning tail and running) there would be no justice.

There are times when people have to take a stand, and having a "trusted adviser" taking advantage of a student under him is one of those cases.
.


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## printandprint (Sep 24, 2007)

You don't stand to benefit from this person. Don't fall for his hooks about his prospects for you. (Bunch of bull)

Send him a bill and carry on. I doubt he will pay that, but by sending the bill, you demonstrate to him how you are a professional. That is what he wanted to know, right?


If you went to your local grocer and stole a candy bar, and they detained you; Would they let you go if you threatened to never shop there again for your regular groceries if they prosecute you? "If you give me this candy bar for free, then I'll keep shopping here." Cut this guy loose.


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## TripleT (Apr 29, 2007)

peteVA said:


> If everyone always folded (also referred to as turning tail and running) there would be no justice.
> 
> There are times when people have to take a stand, and having a "trusted adviser" taking advantage of a student under him is one of those cases.
> .


 
Relax. It's business, it's not personal. Sure, an injustice has been done, and the school should take action against the creep, but if they do or not is really up to them. 

The guy was sent a bill and he said he would not pay. In the over all scope of an education, 4 or 5 hours is not a big deal! A far more more valuable lesson has been learned. 

If it was so easy to get justice as you imply, we would (thankfully) need far fewer lawyers.


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## cimarronsp (Nov 21, 2007)

I was a production manager for a company about 17 years ago which hired a "business consultant" a.k.a a Bullshxxer. Some people can make a living telling other people what they want to hear. Our shop morale was at an all time low when they knew how much the owner was paying him. The morale was very high after the boss fired the "consultant" when I informed my boss that it was either him or me on the payroll, but not both. Good businessmen don't expect anything for free


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## spankthafunk (Apr 9, 2007)

whoah, this guy sounds like a great consultant! look how much you have already learned from dealing with him. lol. you still got his number? )

ps - so what was the final outcome?


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## justq (Jun 28, 2008)

Dude there is no bussiness ethics here. If he could do that to you in the first place what is he going to do when you want to build a sound bussiness relationship me personaly will cut him off he is taking advantage of you and he has violated some clauses of his job by doing what he done to you. He is a member of staff and he has used his job for personal use.

Charge him for your time and tell him to go where the sun dont shine. He is just manipulative and not a future bussiness associate. 

Hash words but the truth


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## justq (Jun 28, 2008)

spankthafunk said:


> whoah, this guy sounds like a great consultant! look how much you have already learned from dealing with him. lol. you still got his number? )
> 
> ps - so what was the final outcome?


Let us know what happened


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## CUSTOM UK (Jun 28, 2008)

*Hi. Sadly there are many 'two legged rats' around, that* *will try to exploit others.*

*There isn't a 'magic solution' to the situation, so you just have to put it down to experience, move on and next time clarify the terms before you undertake any work.*

*We learn from our mistakes.*


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