# Where to get custom ICC profile made?



## jasonsmith (Mar 30, 2011)

I was looking to get a custom ICC profile made for sublimation. Recommendations on who is the best to do this?

Thanks


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## bratdawg (Jul 17, 2012)

If someone has his contact information, I would recommend Bill Leek. After he closed his distribution business, he is a contributing writer for A&E Magazine as well as others. There are others as well, but Bill is one of the best. Good luck, I hope it works out.


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## jasonsmith (Mar 30, 2011)

bratdawg said:


> If someone has his contact information, I would recommend Bill Leek. After he closed his distribution business, he is a contributing writer for A&E Magazine as well as others. There are others as well, but Bill is one of the best. Good luck, I hope it works out.


Can you send out a printed sub paper? I've read that the ink can get too dry on the sub paper and not transfer well. As I know some profilers have you mail the printed sub paper to them and they press it themselves.


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## bratdawg (Jul 17, 2012)

Yes, I do believe Bill has you mail the transfer of a color chart. but you would have to check with him to be sure. I hope someone has a way to contact him. Your transfer would be fine if you mail it.

Edit to add this e-mail you can try: [email protected] HTH, good luck.


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## GordonM (May 21, 2012)

I'd recommend a google search and then finding someone who has availability, and a good price. These guys seem to come and go. 

It's not too useful to send back a printed but unpressed transfer sheet. Ideally you want to color balance your entire process, which includes your most common substrates, pressed with YOUR heat press. Just pressing for 10-15 seconds longer or shorter can cause color shifts, and you need to be in full control of the process, end-to-end.

Obviously, it's harder and more expensive to create profiles for tile, but FRP, aluminum sheet, and poly fabric are fairly inexpensive. I recommend also doing one for mouse pad, if you are offering that. The grayish background of the mousepad (because of the black rubber) can influence the colors. 

Not all profilers can take arbitrary substrates. You may be limited in what they can scan, depending on their scanner. Some ink sellers, like Inkjetcarts and Cobra, offer profiling for their customers. I don't know the cost or process of either.

Consider renting the color profiling equipment. Try the online photographic equipment outlets. At least two offer the ColorMunki, which is a medium-grade color profiler for both display and printer. I did quite a number of profiles for the week that I had the mechanism, and it cost me $88 total, including shipping and insurance. Understand that you may need to re-rent it once or twice a year, in case of changes in inks, paper, or substrates. 

Because of the way the device works, some of your profiles may need to be further re-processed using photographic content of the kind you tend to use. Don't expect a perfect profile the first pass. Sometimes it takes two or three additional passes. Of course, all this uses up substrate. This isn't something you can do on a tight budget.


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## GordonM (May 21, 2012)

Read again: These guys seem to come and go. I wouldn't have written that if I could have given you a quick name.

You're going to have to do your homework. No one who offered profiles when I started is still in the game. But since most of the ones I see listed as still available guarantee their work, so is it really a big gamble?

When you find someone who rents X equipment, do a search for that brand in the photography forums, where making color profiles is common. I already told you what I used. Don't expect to be able to rent a $20K spectographic scanner. Ain't gonna happen.


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## jasonsmith (Mar 30, 2011)

GordonM said:


> Read again: These guys seem to come and go. I wouldn't have written that if I could have given you a quick name.
> 
> You're going to have to do your homework. No one who offered profiles when I started is still in the game. But since most of the ones I see listed as still available guarantee their work, so is it really a big gamble?
> 
> When you find someone who rents X equipment, do a search for that brand in the photography forums, where making color profiles is common. I already told you what I used. Don't expect to be able to rent a $20K spectographic scanner. Ain't gonna happen.


I guess I'll look at renting that Colormunki. As I guess it's the best available for rent.

I think the price comes out a little more than having someone else do the profile. At least with renting it, I can do several different profiles.

I may have to get a large sheet of sublimatable metal. So I can do a profile for white metal.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

GordonM said:


> Read again: These guys seem to come and go. I wouldn't have written that if I could have given you a quick name.
> 
> You're going to have to do your homework. No one who offered profiles when I started is still in the game. But since most of the ones I see listed as still available guarantee their work, so is it really a big gamble?
> 
> When you find someone who rents X equipment, do a search for that brand in the photography forums, where making color profiles is common. I already told you what I used. Don't expect to be able to rent a $20K spectographic scanner. Ain't gonna happen.


Gordon,

Bill Leek did the ICC profiles for TOG sublimation inks and for ATI laser subtoner, I made and supplied all the target files for ATI subtoner for him and helped test new products on occasion for him as well. He is now retired but at one time was a sublimation vendor who also had his own pigment ink brand (with his own profiles), substrates, and his own transfer paper brands.

_He worked from printed target transfers sent to him and is a foremost expert at sublimation and sublimation profiles._ 

He didn't just come and go. 

BTW, Steve (Bratdawg) is a well established long time sublimation vendor, he too is an expert like Bill Leek. 

http://www.dye-sublimation-products.com/


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

jasonsmith said:


> I guess I'll look at renting that Colormunki. As I guess it's the best available for rent.
> 
> I think the price comes out a little more than having someone else do the profile. At least with renting it, I can do several different profiles.
> 
> I may have to get a large sheet of sublimatable metal. So I can do a profile for white metal.


Jason,

I highly recommend Bill Leek. I know you had asked me before if I knew anyone, but I didn't have Bill Leek's contact information anymore since he retired.


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## jasonsmith (Mar 30, 2011)

Will that Colormunki work for sublimation? As I know the colors change from the transfer paper when pressed.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

jasonsmith said:


> Will that Colormunki work for sublimation? As I know the colors change from the transfer paper when pressed.


The difference between a sublimation ICC and a hardcopy paper ICC is that the target file for sublimation is scanned back into the computer from a heat transfer of the same target file pressed on a substrate. 

Hardcopy ICC's for paper printing are printed on the specific paper then scanned back in from the same hardcopy printed paper.

The scanning from the optical equipment looks at the error in the printing (or pressing) then adjusts the colors accordingly and stores that info into the ICC file.


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## jasonsmith (Mar 30, 2011)

How do you turn off ALL color management in Corel Draw X6 and Photopaint X6?

I know when you print you can go into the advanced tab and set it to ICM, and then check Off (No Color Adjustment). But I think there can still be some color management going on as you can still go into the Color tab when printing and change the profile and what coverts the color (Corel or Printer), etc.

I did read somewhere that there always is some color management going on with Corel.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

jasonsmith said:


> How do you turn off ALL color management in Corel Draw X6 and Photopaint X6?
> 
> I know when you print you can go into the advanced tab and set it to ICM, and then check Off (No Color Adjustment). But I think there can still be some color management going on as you can still go into the Color tab when printing and change the profile and what coverts the color (Corel or Printer), etc.
> 
> I did read somewhere that there always is some color management going on with Corel.


Adobe now provides a free utility to print targets w/o color managent since they hosed that feature in later versions of Photoshop.

No Color Management option missing | Printing | Photoshop CS5


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## jasonsmith (Mar 30, 2011)

mgparrish said:


> Adobe now provides a free utility to print targets w/o color managent since they hosed that feature in later versions of Photoshop.
> 
> No Color Management option missing | Printing | Photoshop CS5


I don't use photoshop. I use Coreldraw X6 and Photopaint X6. Just need to know how to turn the color management all OFF with Corel.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

jasonsmith said:


> I don't use photoshop. I use Coreldraw X6 and Photopaint X6. Just need to know how to turn the color management all OFF with Corel.


It works outside of Adobe. You don't need PS installed. It is a stand alone utilty. It prints tiff files w/o color management. You need to turn off color adj. in the Epson printer driver before you print is the only thing you have to do to make a printed target once you have the vendors source target file.

This is what everyone uses now to make targets. See the readme file in the zip


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## jasonsmith (Mar 30, 2011)

mgparrish said:


> It works outside of Adobe. You don't need PS installed. It is a stand alone utilty. It prints tiff files w/o color management. You need to turn off color adj. in the Epson printer driver before you print is the only thing you have to do to make a printed target once you have the vendors source target file.
> 
> This is what everyone uses now to make targets. See the readme file in the zip


Is that the ICM-OFF?

Though I just looked and found I had Photoshop elements 7. I think it came with something. But noticed it had a setting when you print to turn color management off. Then when you open the printer driver the ICM-OFF is already done for you as well.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

jasonsmith said:


> Is that the ICM-OFF?
> 
> Though I just looked and found I had Photoshop elements 7. I think it came with something. But noticed it had a setting when you print to turn color management off. Then when you open the printer driver the ICM-OFF is already done for you as well.


Yes, ICM in the Epson driver needs to be OFF.

Your Epson driver settings are only "sticky" if you set them thru Windows control panel without having your graphics app open. 

If you set the Epson driver thru your graphic apps those settings are only applicable while you still have the graphic pgm open. Once you close they revert back to whatever they were set to before.


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## GordonM (May 21, 2012)

mgparrish said:


> He didn't just come and go.
> 
> BTW, Steve (Bratdawg) is a well established long time sublimation vendor, he too is an expert like Bill Leek.
> 
> dye sublimation products, blank imprintables and accessories - Paramount Services


I'm sorry, are you saying this site offers a profiling service? Is that mentioned somewhere? And what is the URL for Bill Leek's site where he promotes his service?

Do a Google search and find several people currently in business to do the work. Be sure they offer a guarantee, then go for it. Really, it's not that hard.


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## GordonM (May 21, 2012)

jasonsmith said:


> Will that Colormunki work for sublimation? As I know the colors change from the transfer paper when pressed.


I used a ColorMunki to make sublimation profiles, as I said. So I guess the answer to that would be yes.

To make a target using any system, you print it, transfer it to the substrate, then scan it.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

GordonM said:


> I'm sorry, are you saying this site offers a profiling service? Is that mentioned somewhere? And what is the URL for Bill Leek's site where he promotes his service?
> 
> Do a Google search and find several people currently in business to do the work. Be sure they offer a guarantee, then go for it. Really, it's not that hard.


 No in this thread Steve (Bratdawg) who mentioned Bill Leek and added that Bill Leek would work with a printed transfer.

If you go back and actually read I stated Steve is a long time sublimation vendor and he knows his stuff. *The link is to his website. *

You were stating to just go ahead and print AND press the target on his heat press... that would be a big non-no to send a finished heat transfered target for someone like Bill Leek. Jason was asking if he accepted just a printed transfer. The answer is YES and for a reason.


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## bratdawg (Jul 17, 2012)

GordonM said:


> I'm sorry, are you saying this site offers a profiling service? Is that mentioned somewhere? And what is the URL for Bill Leek's site where he promotes his service?
> 
> Do a Google search and find several people currently in business to do the work. Be sure they offer a guarantee, then go for it. Really, it's not that hard.


Hi Gordon, I don't think Mike meant to imply that at all, nor did I. As Mike mentioned, Bill is semi-retired, but is still active in the industry with consultation and as a contributing writer to many of the trade magazines.

Although I have not spoken to Bill since last year, I believe he is still doing profiles. Since Jason asked for someone good to do profiles, I simply offered a suggestion for someone who is indeed an expert. I listed his email and folks can choose to contact him if they wish, or do a search as you suggested.


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## bratdawg (Jul 17, 2012)

GordonM said:


> I'm sorry, are you saying this site offers a profiling service? Is that mentioned somewhere? And what is the URL for Bill Leek's site where he promotes his service?
> 
> Do a Google search and find several people currently in business to do the work. Be sure they offer a guarantee, then go for it. Really, it's not that hard.


Hi Gordon, I don't think Mike meant to imply that at all, nor did I. As Mike mentioned, Bill is semi-retired, but is still active in the industry with consultation and as a contributing writer to many of the trade magazines.

Although I have not spoken to Bill since last year, I believe he is still doing profiles. Since Jason asked for someone good to do profiles, I simply offered a suggestion for someone who is indeed an expert. I listed his email and folks can choose to contact him if they wish, or do a search as you suggested.


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## GordonM (May 21, 2012)

Bill Leek's Web site is a parked page with ads to other sites. So forgive me if I consider this another case of someone who has "come and gone" (from offering a profiling service at least).

And I said it is better to send a transferred substrate for scanning (obviously to those services who accept it), and I explained why. If you don't have full control of the process end-to-end, you're guessing at half of it. This is a recommendation from someone who HAS ACTUALLY DONE his own profiles. I'm not saying mine is the only way, but it's the way I have found works best.


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## GordonM (May 21, 2012)

mgparrish said:


> If you go back and actually read I stated Steve is a long time sublimation vendor and he knows his stuff. *The link is to his website. *


Ah, I see. I was confused why you added the Web site URL. (I know the site, the products, and admire both.) The way you phrased it, it seemed like you were suggesting the site offered a profiling service.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

GordonM said:


> Bill Leek's Web site is a parked page with ads to other sites. So forgive me if I consider this another case of someone who has "come and gone."
> 
> And I said it is better to send a transferred substrate for scanning (obviously to those services who accept it), and I explained why. If you don't have full control of the process end-to-end, you're guessing at half of it. This is a recommendation from someone who HAS ACTUALLY DONE his own profiles. I'm not saying mine is the only way, but it's the way I have found works best.


Gordon, go back and actually read pleeeasssee.

It was mentioned Bill Leek is retired, yes his website is gone.  It's not known if he will still make ICC's or not. I referred someone to him a few years back after he was "retired", but I idn't have his email anymore, Steve was able to dig it up. Bill Leek is no longer a sublimation vendor but he was still doing work after he closed his business.

The context was Bill Leek and if he could work with a preprinted transfer.

You assume that the substrate being pressed is suitable for profile target scanning then the person with the equipment receiving the pressed target can reliably make a file from it. Garbage in and garbage out if it is not. Or that if it was transfered correctly or not. Garbage in and garbage out if it is not. 

We were not talking about those you sought out, Jason's question was would Bill Leek would accept a printed transfer. 

You advised it was best he (Jason) used his own press and own substrates for the target without knowing _anything _about the person who was suggested to make the profiles ...


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

GordonM said:


> Ah, I see. I was confused why you added the Web site URL. (I know the site, the products, and admire both.) The way you phrased it, it seemed like you were suggesting the site offered a profiling service.


Sorry for any confusion, I listed Steve's URL directly under the line where I mentioned that Steve was a sublimation supplier.


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## GordonM (May 21, 2012)

Silly me for thinking someone who's retired and with no active Web site still wants to do regular business doing profiles! 

I've been doing plenty of reading. I gave my opinion why it's better to send the target pressed to the substrate you intend to use, pressed with equipment you actually have. Whether someone offers a service that discourages such a thing is irrelevant to my opinion or the advice I gave. 

To say so-and-so is an expert so his profiles are perfect may be wholly accurate. But they're accurate only in isolation. You can't ignore that the profile still has to work on someone else's equipment. It it better, in my opinion, to close that gap from the get-go, and have the profile based on a process that only involves the user's specific equipment, and no one else's. You're paying for a custom profile. Why not make it custom all the way.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

GordonM said:


> Silly me for thinking someone who's retired and with no active Web site still wants to do regular business doing profiles!
> 
> I've been doing plenty of reading. I gave my opinion why it's better to send the target pressed to the substrate you intend to use, pressed with equipment you actually have. Whether someone offers a service that discourages such a thing is irrelevant to my opinion or the advice I gave.
> 
> To say so-and-so is an expert so his profiles are perfect may be wholly accurate. But they're accurate only in isolation. You can't ignore that the profile still has to work on someone else's equipment. It it better, in my opinion, to close that gap from the get-go, and have the profile based on a process that only involves the user's specific equipment, and no one else's. You're paying for a custom profile. Why not make it custom all the way.


Go back and read again pleeeassee, Steve mentioned that he thought Bill may still be around in the industry and was active writing.

Gordon, the only way to achieve what you are describing is for Jason to get his own profile equipment and completely DIY. Sorry your dog don't hunt.

You can't close that gap you are talking about remotely thru a 3rd party. FUGITABOUTIT 

Many substrates are not suitable for targets, only the person making the profile can make that determination.

Again the context was Bill Leek, the context was "accurate in isolation", you took the conversation to a far far away galaxy out of "isolation".


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## sben763 (May 17, 2009)

GordonM you are so right if you are wanting the best results possible target need to be presses on the actual substrate. When I had my profiles done I sent back and forth several different substrate and shirts. The first one they did was ok but after them reading from my substrates and me pressing the results are were much better. I never thought about the press as being a variable I just thought it was the substrates that made a difference 

On a side note when my first printer gave me a few issues I switched to a different 1400 and although the results were satisfactory when I repaired and went back to the 1400 where all the targets were printed from they worked much better. 

Wow I didn't know you could rent that equipment. Will have to check that out if I decide to start printing my own dye sub transfers again.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

sben763 said:


> GordonM you are so right if you are wanting the best results possible target need to be presses on the actual substrate. When I had my profiles done I sent back and forth several different substrate and shirts. *The first one they did was ok but after them reading from my substrates and me pressing the results are were much better. I never thought about the press as being a variable I just thought it was the substrates that made a difference *
> 
> On a side note when my first printer gave me a few issues I switched to a different 1400 and although the results were satisfactory when I repaired and went back to the 1400 where all the targets were printed from they worked much better.
> 
> Wow I didn't know you could rent that equipment. Will have to check that out if I decide to start printing my own dye sub transfers again.


 
The only way to achieve this "utopia" being referred to is to have your own equipment and DIY. Again, not all surfaces can be accurate or practical targets.

By the time you sent all this stuff and all your various subtrates back and forth and back and forth best to either buy your own equipment or rent it. 

Any good 3rd party doing this would charge you a lot of $$$$$$.


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## GordonM (May 21, 2012)

mgparrish said:


> You can't close that gap you are talking about remotely thru a 3rd party. FUGITABOUTIT


Time to get a new dog. This is EXACTLY what I did when first starting out. I wanted a profile for matte FRP. Bought a 12x24 panel, cut it in half, and sent in two pressed targets. 

I don't know where you get the idea you can't send in pressed substrates to profilers, but it's not true. Most couldn't do a mug, but they can do gloss tiles. A good scanner or scanning table can work over any flat surface large enough for the target. Some can be used manually, like this one:

X-Rite: EO2PHO : i1Photo Pro 2

Other than a mug or other obvious non-flat shape, fill me in on your list of "many substrates that are not suitable for targets." The much cheaper ColoMunki, made by the same company, handled EVERY substrate I printed on, including already washed t-shirts. So phooey. 

If you send in a printed transfer sheet for someone else to press onto some arbitrary substrate using an arbitrary press and settings, you're not getting back a custom profile. I don't care who is doing it. THAT is the context. 

What you WILL get back is a generic profile, hopefully a good one, but no better than your ink supplier could (and should) give you in the first place.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

GordonM said:


> Time to get a new dog. This is EXACTLY what I did when first starting out. I wanted a profile for matte FRP. Bought a 12x24 panel, cut it in half, and sent in two pressed targets.
> 
> I don't know where you get the idea you can't send in pressed substrates to profilers, but it's not true. Most couldn't do a mug, but they can do gloss tiles. A good scanner or scanning table can work over any flat surface large enough for the target. Some can be used manually, like this one:
> 
> ...


Gordon, you are making my point. First of all I NEVER STATED YOU CAN"T SEND IN A PREPRESSED TARGET. Whether you should or not should be up to the person making the ICC, only he could determine what is suitable FOR HIM or HIS EQUIPMENT or not.

To get this utopia you are referring to GET YOUR OWN EQUIPMENT AND DIY 100%. You just stated you did it yourself with the ColorMunki? Why didn't you stay with the 3rd party you used originally?

Again, you are in another galaxy. I can't fathom a 3rd party suggesting to use washed tshirts as a target or fabric material that has a lot of space in the weave like a screen mesh. Definelty not THAT 3rd party I was referring to.

You would use a puzzle for a target? Those surfaces are about as unique as you can get beyond the cuts.

By the time you sent all this stuff out to to a competent 3rd party it would cost a fortune.


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## paintersspouse (Jul 26, 2012)

Richard @ Cobrainks will do custom profiles.

.:: Cobra Ink Systems::. This is where the term CIS began


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

paintersspouse said:


> Richard @ Cobrainks will do custom profiles.
> 
> .:: Cobra Ink Systems::. This is where the term CIS began


It's not mentioned in this thread, so you would not know otherwise, but I had suggested that offline. The OP is using the "stock" Cobra profiles currently.


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## paintersspouse (Jul 26, 2012)

There are new profiles as of yesterday as well.


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## GordonM (May 21, 2012)

mgparrish said:


> Whether you should or not should be up to the person making the ICC, only he could determine what is suitable FOR HIM or HIS EQUIPMENT or not.


No. The *customer* determines what's best. If the person making the custom profile wants to use his own substrates and press, find another profiler. You're not getting a custom profile otherwise.



mgparrish said:


> Why didn't you stay with the 3rd party you used originally?


I have four printers to profile. Do the math!



mgparrish said:


> I can't fathom a 3rd party suggesting to use washed tshirts as a target or fabric material that has a lot of space in the weave like a screen mesh.


Back it with the same white fabric as the t-shirt, of course. No different than a photographer would do to profile canvas or other cloth-based papers. (This is even in the instructions for high-end papers.)

Really, I'm done with this. If you'd like to actually try your own profiling, then you'd see how straightforward it really is.


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## paintersspouse (Jul 26, 2012)

Gordon

I think Parrish knows how straight forward it is. It is still a big chunk of money that most beginners do not understand. I think that is what he is getting at. Color management is not something most start ups understand until they start getting bad results.


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## GordonM (May 21, 2012)

mgparrish said:


> It's not mentioned in this thread, so you would not know otherwise, but I had suggested that offline.


I mentioned Cobra being able to do custom profiles in my post #5. I also mentioned the guy at Inkjetcarts says he'll do them, and he has the X-Rite equipment I linked to.


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## GordonM (May 21, 2012)

paintersspouse said:


> It is still a big chunk of money that most beginners do not understand.


I'll just point out it's not a big chunk of money. The first profile I had done cost something like $30 or $35, not really a lot of money when I think back at the wasted material and hours of frustration. And as I said, I rented the equipment so I could profile four printers. Cost me $88, complete. One of my better investments.

I agree newcomers may not understand the need for color management at first, but I don't think that's the same thing as making it out as voodoo, or coming up with reasons why something won't work, when groups like photographers have been doing it for years.


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## jasonsmith (Mar 30, 2011)

I was looking at going with subliflock or sublicloth for sublimation. Need to do some testing. So I was going to profile whichever one of those works out. As I didn't like 100% poly shirts.

And I probably would need to get some sheets of white sublimatable metal so I can do a profile for metal.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

GordonM said:


> I have four printers to profile. Do the math!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Again you are referring to DIY. even with one printer there are so many substrates that anyone can argue would be best to have a profile for each substrate. 

Good for those that need to split their hairs so fine they need to profile a washed tshirt. Sounds crazy to me but to each his own. For those that need these things I say get your own equipment and split all these hairs you like.

Do you have a source for someone to make an ICC that the original post was asking for or not?

Otherwise you are not really being helpful. 

My suggestion would be to follow the the advise of the person doing the profiles or just DIY 100%.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

jasonsmith said:


> I was looking at going with subliflock or sublicloth for sublimation. Need to do some testing. So I was going to profile whichever one of those works out. As I didn't like 100% poly shirts.
> 
> And I probably would need to get some sheets of white sublimatable metal so I can do a profile for metal.


Yes ... suggest to get some sample of the flock or cloth before you profile. Determine if the material is durable enough or the hand is acceptable ... that would be the first test before you invest time and money into profiling it. 

Getting better color doesn't mean much if the material itself is not what you expect. For now just sub on it with what you have and test it out.


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## paintersspouse (Jul 26, 2012)

I don't see the economics of spending the 88.00. You would have been better off to just purchase the system. I print sublimation but I also print fine art prints on canvas and several other papers. I have to calibrate everything from my screens to my scanner and substrates on a regular basis. Paper formulations change. My monitor wanders off its mark. A printer profile is only part of the solution.

No one is saying it is Vodoo. They re saying that there are several solutions and sometimes the simplest one is not the most cost effective or time saving in the long run.


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## GordonM (May 21, 2012)

mgparrish said:


> Do you have a source for someone to make an ICC that the original post was asking for or not?


Yes, post #5. Right there I mentioned Cobra and Inkjetcarts.

I also recommended the OP do his own research on Google to find additional sources. It's what I did, and the results were fine. What's wrong with making that suggestion if it worked for me?

It's not splitting hairs to profile the result of printing on a shirt, and that includes what happens after a wash or two. It's common sense. It's a waste to profile a fresh JPSS pressing for example, unless you expect your customer to never launder his or her clothes.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

GordonM said:


> Yes, post #5. Right there I mentioned Cobra and Inkjetcarts.
> 
> I also recommended the OP do his own research on Google to find additional sources. It's what I did, and the results were fine. What's wrong with making that suggestion if it worked for me?
> 
> It's not splitting hairs to profile the result of printing on a shirt, and that includes what happens after a wash or two. It's common sense. It's a waste to profile a fresh JPSS pressing for example, unless you expect your customer to never launder his or her clothes.


Gordon, then why not profile for what happens after 10 washes? As usual you are in another galaxy the topic is sublimation. My point was that we mentioned another source for the ICC, you were contradicting the experts requirement and advising against it NO NO NO.


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## GordonM (May 21, 2012)

paintersspouse said:


> I don't see the economics of spending the 88.00. You would have been better off to just purchase the system. I print sublimation but I also print fine art prints on canvas and several other papers. I have to calibrate everything from my screens to my scanner and substrates on a regular basis. Paper formulations change. My monitor wanders off its mark. A printer profile is only part of the solution.
> 
> No one is saying it is Vodoo. They re saying that there are several solutions and sometimes the simplest one is not the most cost effective or time saving in the long run.


I don't understand your comments. Are you saying you should or should not invest in a profile or system if you feel the need, whether it's one-shot, rent, or buy? 

You admit there are several solutions, but somehow my solutions aren't counted. For custom profiles on the first page of this thread I suggested Cobra, Inkjetcarts, an honest Google search, and rental. Buying a system is obvious, so I didn't bother with that one. 

Look, if you don't find it worthwhile to rent for 1/6th the price of buying then fine. Rental isn't for you. It obviously was a viable option for me, under my budget and needs. 

I am the type of person who suggests what he actually has tried out for himself. I try to keep the unfounded guesswork to a minimum. I'm sorry my opinion doesn't match yours, but I give the opinion after actually having done what I suggest.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

GordonM said:


> I don't understand your comments. Are you saying you should or should not invest in a profile or system if you feel the need, whether it's one-shot, rent, or buy?
> 
> You admit there are several solutions, but somehow my solutions aren't counted. For custom profiles on the first page of this thread I suggested Cobra, Inkjetcarts, an honest Google search, and rental. Buying a system is obvious, so I didn't bother with that one.
> 
> ...


Then why argue against what the 3rd party that was mentioned requires? You have tried his service out yourself?


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## GordonM (May 21, 2012)

mgparrish said:


> Gordon, then why not profile for what happens after 10 washes? As usual you are in another galaxy the topic is sublimation. My point was that we mentioned another source for the ICC, you were contradicting the experts requirement and advising against it NO NO NO.


Don't try to twist things Mike. I only mentioned washed fabric as proof your rules and regulations are nonsense about what can or can't be profiled.

No experts have been cited in this thread. One person "believes" a certain expert, now retired, can take a printed transfer. 

Let's assume that's so. What you'll get back is a generic profile for a given printer and ink. Fine, but hardly worth the money. If you're going to pay for a custom profile, then it should match everything in your process, not just the first half.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

GordonM said:


> Don't try to twist things Mike. I only mentioned washed fabric as proof your rules and regulations are nonsense about what can or can't be profiled.
> 
> No experts have been cited in this thread. One person "believes" a certain expert, now retired, can take a printed transfer.
> 
> Let's assume that's so. What you'll get back is a generic profile for a given printer and ink. Fine, but hardly worth the money. If you're going to pay for a custom profile, then it should match everything in your process, not just the first half.


2 experts have been cited, one expert (Steve) cited Bill Leek, another expert. You jumped in and contradicted what Steve said, my money says you saw he only had a few posts here not knowing who he really is and thought you would jump all over it. 

And 2 people here believe that said expert is an expert. Forgot what you think of me, Steve has more sublimation experience that 25 of me and you.

Rest assured, Bill Leek is an expert. I sent him targets before and never needed it to be "customized" for my press, he knew exactly what he was doing. In my galaxy such things are not necessary.

Did you bother to ask Jason if he knows if his press is at the proper temperature? 

If it isn't is he really in your sublimation utopia land since his inks would not be optimized if pressed 15 degs low? Sure he could consitantly repeat the results, but the results are not as good as they should be. Then later gets a accurate press and then the profile results are skewed because his old press made a less than optimum target?


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## GordonM (May 21, 2012)

In my galaxy Mike, my press has a different recovery rate than yours. Or the next guy's. I'm sure you know operating temperature is just one (easily correctable) factor. 

In my galaxy, I have preferred ways to press -- with or without Nomex pad, with or without conductive pad, with and without Teflon, etc. These are some things which I've found through trial and error work best for me, and change the characteristics of the pressing. Other people will find different things that work for them. It's plainly naive to think that all presses and pressings are the same.

In my galaxy, if I'm paying for a custom profile -- or taking the time to make them -- I want to fine-tune them for the processes that *I* use. Why should anyone pay for something that's sold as custom that isn't really customized for them.

In my galaxy, I try to optimize my toolset with the workflow. It's not just about correcting a flaw in the tools or workflow, but making everything work better together.

I stand by my statement that "Ideally you want to color balance your entire process, which includes your most common substrates, pressed with YOUR heat press." I'm not arguing what you say is valid for a building a generic profile, but this thread is about making a custom profile.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

GordonM said:


> In my galaxy Mike, my press has a different recovery rate than yours. Or the next guy's. I'm sure you know operating temperature is just one (easily correctable) factor.
> 
> In my galaxy, I have preferred ways to press -- with or without Nomex pad, with or without conductive pad, with and without Teflon, etc. These are some things which I've found through trial and error work best for me, and change the characteristics of the pressing. Other people will find different things that work for them. It's plainly naive to think that all presses and pressings are the same. Frankly, I'm surprised you'd think so.
> 
> ...


Then this goes back to my statement. If one thinks they need all this hair splitting fine, then it makes sense to DIY, sending out to split all these hairs is economic insanity.

You take simple things and make them as complicated as can be. I take complicated things and make them simple as can be, that's where we differ.

No need to have things customized to your heat press. But to each his own Gordon  If I change my presses later makes no sense to redo all the profiles since they would no longer be "custom".

If I do change them later rest assured life is not over for me without those "custom" profiles.


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## GordonM (May 21, 2012)

Ordering, paying for, and getting a custom profile is not complicated.

You've been referring to third party generic profiles, and calling them custom. That makes the discussion complicated.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

GordonM said:


> Ordering, paying for, and getting a custom profile is not complicated.
> 
> You've been referring to third party generic profiles, and calling them custom. That makes the discussion complicated.


Yes Gordon, as I have stated you take simple things and make them complicated. 

Gordon, call them what you like. At some point this is utter nonsense. I have 3 flat heat presses, one cap press and 2 mug presses. 

So then after a few years I need a new printer ... then I gotta go and get "custom" profiles all over again for all my various substrates and each press I have?

If you are claiming one should be getting "custom" profiles because they need the profile married to the press to get proper color ...  CACA

Makes more sense to me to use the pressure adjustment and then the heat adjustment then adjust each press as needed, The press is not "locked in" to settings, but profiles are locked. Bass ackward to me to do any other way.

If someone can't make a simple adjustment on their heat press for temperature and pressure parameters along with dwell time, they have no business sublimating.

I get by fine with a few "stock" profiles and a couple of paper types for 90% of the stuff I do, anything outside that I rely on my skills to make adjustment to my art where the profile may not be so good for the substrate. 

For those that demand "custom" profiles and all this insane hair splitting suggest that they buy or rent equipment and DIY. 

If someone needs a "custom" profile due to a specific subtrate, or the inks they have, by all means get one made, it's not complicated. If you think it must be truly "custom" because it can't get good results and good color unless it's "made just for your press" that's not complicated either, it's insanity.


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## GordonM (May 21, 2012)

mgparrish said:


> I get by fine with a few "stock" profiles and a couple of paper types


Then I have to wonder why you're even participating in this thread, if it's something you don't even do.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

GordonM said:


> Then I have to wonder why you're even participating in this thread, if it's something you don't even do.


Your argument is a logical fallacy. 

I don't drive a truck either but if someone asks where they might find a reputable dealer for one, and I know of one such place, it would be beneficial to the person asking the question to have an answer.


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## Riderz Ready (Sep 18, 2008)

Jason - your head must be spinning. Let me give you a prosepctive from someone who does this for a living and have been successful at such.

We have a single profile - not even a custom one. We got ours from Marcello at Junkyard dog who happens to have the same printer and ink as we do. This whole talk about getting a profile for a specific individual press and indivual printer is almost laughable. 

We print mostly on bulk fabric but also press on SubliDecal, Vapor shirts, fleece, aluminum. etc. Is there a need for a profile for each one - not at all.
Use a quality ink, paper and profile and you are set. If you took all the time trying to figure out color profiles and spent it on marketing and selling your goods you would end up with a lot more revenue in your pockets. Leave the profile jibberish to the techies and spend your time selling.

In some regards dye sub is very forgiving. Time pressing can vary 10 seconds, temp can vary 10 degrees and to the naked eye there is no difference.

Dye sub does not have to be as complicated as some make it out to be but if you are just learning there is a curve.

Best of luck


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

Riderz Ready said:


> Jason - your head must be spinning. Let me give you a prosepctive from someone who does this for a living and have been successful at such.
> 
> We have a single profile - not even a custom one. We got ours from Marcello at Junkyard dog who happens to have the same printer and ink as we do. This whole talk about getting a profile for a specific individual press and indivual printer is almost laughable.
> 
> ...


98% correct. I agree he should not need so many profiles, nor is it critical it has to be for his exact exact printer, and/or press.

I would think your RIP has different options that allow you to use it more precisely for this application or that application without changing around papers or profiles? 

But with the status quo here with his inks and profile, as presented, really needs 2 papers, the TexPrint HR paper has too much release for hardgoods and the DyeTrans paper for hard goods is too weak on most fabrics. This I know because I am using the same inks, not because I like to waste time splitting fine hairs.

In this case it is what it is, could be a single profile and single paper combination could be made that covered most everything, seems very possible, but in this case that just isn't available out of the box. 

Other inks that are available such as Artainium I get by with one paper and 1 profile by and large.

Most users on either Artainium or Sublijet just use what is "stock" for color managment, some maybe use a fabric paper and a hardgoods paper.


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## Riderz Ready (Sep 18, 2008)

I guess my point is that this is not anywhere near as difficult as being made. If your ink provider cannot provide you a professional ICC profile - find another ink vendor. To have to go out and profile is a waste for 99% of people.

As far as a RIP - use the same settings regardless of what we do - 

I figured out all this talk about ICC profiles for hard substrates and soft substrates was more talk than fact when back in the desktop days I used specific profiles as one test and then used each of the specifics on the opposite substrate and could tell zero difference. In theory I would guess, and only guess, that soft substrate profiles drop more ink but again could tell no difference on the profiles.

I cannot even tell the difference of using tacky paper versus non tacky paper on high gloss items.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

Riderz Ready said:


> I guess my point is that this is not anywhere near as difficult as being made. If your ink provider cannot provide you a professional ICC profile - find another ink vendor. To have to go out and profile is a waste for 99% of people.
> 
> As far as a RIP - use the same settings regardless of what we do -
> 
> ...


Just to remind you that on the desktop the other option with support and color managment is Sawgrass or Sawgrass.

I'm not convinced there is any thing wrong with the profile he has, I think he needs to just setup correctly and have been working with him on that. But he doesn't seem to be able to get it nailed down yet. 

I suppose I could take some time and experiment with all the paper brands around and find a universal fit, till then I'm OK using a couple of papers and 2nd profile, but not profiles for each substrate and each heat press. For the quality I get and the cost not a big inconvenience.

I helped someone with the same exact inks and printer as the OP has, as with many starting out the most common mistakes were made initially by the another person having trouble on the same platform, and once we worked thru those out he was able to get these results on a tag ...

I can stretch similar results I get pretty far on my system without jumping thru so many hoops.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

Riderz Ready said:


> I guess my point is that this is not anywhere near as difficult as being made. If your ink provider cannot provide you a professional ICC profile - find another ink vendor. To have to go out and profile is a waste for 99% of people.
> 
> As far as a RIP - use the same settings regardless of what we do -
> 
> ...


Here is what is stated for the 2 papers in question ...

"Beaver TexPrintXP™ -HR Paper is a semi-high release paper that works on everything except some ceramic mugs. Recommended for soft things such as shirts and products made from mousepad material. While this paper will work on hard substrates, the extra ink release is wasted on them and could cause an over saturation of the image should transfer parameters (time/temp/pressure) aren’t just right. 
Note that this paper will work fine on glass"

"DyeTrans general purpose sublimation paper works on everything except textured glass cutting boards, coasters and textured-faced clocks. This paper is recommended primarily for hard things such as FRP, hardboard and metal. This is a good paper for start-ups as this frees the newcomer of trying to remember which paper to use. DyeTrans Multi-Purpose is cheaper and more forgiving in offering wide dwell time windows and helping to prevent ghosting. "

Using these 2 papers I find the statements to be true.

With Artanium I always use a paper that I got locally from Starline Pacific, they are no longer in Phoenix so I just order it online now, it worked on everything, it was a "house" brand so not sure who really makes it, but it is not the same as the other 2 brands above.

I think that Cobra should have used a more universal paper such as this I use for Artanium, or whatever you are using, but ended up with some "split".


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## jasonsmith (Mar 30, 2011)

What substrates are you guys using to do your sublimation profiles with?

I've got alot of Vapor apparel fabric. But I think the weave is too loose to get an accurate reading from as it would be measuring alot of white in the color if you were to put a white shirt underneath.

I'm thinking you'd need something solid and smooth. Was thinking of getting some sublimation sticker sheets or something that would give a nice solid color for the profile.


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## mags1892 (Mar 31, 2012)

I know this is an old thread but If you want some profiling done I am happy to look at this for you. I have all the kit for profiling and have been doing it years. The comments on here about profiling of some materials with a wide weave are quite correct anything with a gap showing white will cause problems, id suggest using a tight weave or a flat material close as possible to the image you need. Id also press this to whichever settings you chose then profile, ideally a length of time for the ink to settle in is best and even after one wash.

I can come to you but costs may be prohibitive or send your printed stuff to me.

Ken


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