# Water-Based Ink Screenprinters & The Future



## tdeals (Dec 13, 2006)

Over the past month, I've been on a mission to find water-based ink screenprinters, moreso in my area or within a couple of hours driving distance. I have found a handful across the US but most of the companies I have found did not openly advertise they can print with water-based inks. This is a bit confusing to me. 

What is happening in my search experience is that I'm asking plastisol screenprinters if they also print with water-based inks. A few have said they actually do, _only if asked_, but had nothing on their site that pointed this out in advance.

I'm wondering, where's the future in water-based ink screenprinting? Is anyone here currently using the water-based ink screenprinting method for 100% of your apparel? 

Are there any water-based ink screenprinters here that would like to chime in on this question?

Thanks.


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## Solmu (Aug 15, 2005)

We're at an interesting point where an extremely high proportion of highend printing (i.e. $35+ t-shirts) is done using waterbased inks or similar non-plastisol techniques. Likewise new/young premium brands (Oddica, Threadless Select, et al) are more likely to use waterbased. I'm also seeing a growing trend of consumers who talk about plastisol in much the same way as they talked about heat transfers a few years ago.

I think it's a little early to predict whether this is the beginning of a lasting trend, or just a temporary one (like so many other fashion trends), but personally I think it's the way the market is headed. On the other hand, with the advent of PVC free Plastisol... who knows?

It's coming from a lot of angles though. More women are wearing t-shirt prints, and with tight-fitting garments the softer hand is important. Waterbased creates a better looking more feminine print. Then there's the environmental angle that some come at it from. Then there's the vintage angle. Then there's the small scale production angle (home printers are more likely to be waterbased, home based businesses are becoming increasingly popular in the market place, so...). All of that comes together to make it an increasingly popular choice.

Like I said, I think it's at an interesting point, because there's more consumer demand than there is market supply. But more and more big brands are making the switch.

On the other hand in two years the bubble might have burst.


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## Fluid (Jun 20, 2005)

I see it a lot in the big brands yet I also still see way more plasticol prints than waterbased. There is no way waterbased printing will take the place of plasticol inks. The general screen priting market (Corporate, etc.) is stuck on the old skool way of printing, especially the athletic market using high opacity inks. I just dont see it happening at elast in my lifetime.

Waterbased printing is a whole nudder ball bamge and most printers start out printing plasticol. Switching to a new medium is always tough as most printers have a hard enough time getting plasticols down. To take on a new process is rare these days


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## RichardGreaves (Nov 7, 2006)

To look for water based ink printers, ask water based ink companies where they sell their ink. You don't tell us where you live except the Southeast.

Start with Nazdar SourceOne in Atlanta. 

The Plast-O-Meric division of PolyOne make waterbased inks and they are based in Atlanta: 800-326-0226.

Union ink makes an air dry ink called AeroTex and represent the Pavonine line of inks. Pavonine phthalate free and PVC free ink

Call Jeff Proctor of Union Ink who lives in the Atlanta area: 866-770-4657

There will always be a market for water based inks. It has not changed in 30 years.

Tell us why you want water based inks. 

In the past it was for soft hand prints, but since the 80's, plastisol inks can be made and printed so you can't feel them.

WB inks cannot be made as opaque as plastisol. I have not seen a WB white ink that is soft.

WB inks do not flash as well as plastisol because they are more than 80% water. Plastisols are 100% solids, nothing evaporates.

WB inks dry in the screen.

WB inks require that you flood the screen at the end of the print stroke. With the overall industry change from clam shell presses to complete heads that are parallel to the platens, this is no longer a problem.

WB inks should not go down the drain. They have practically the same resins and pigments as plastisol. 

WB inks take lots more heat and curing time to first evaporate all that water from the ink films before they can start a race with plastisol to cure. The ink film will not go above 180 degrees if there is still water in the ink. Infra-Red panel ovens do not do this very well compared to gas fired hot air 'dryers'.

Ohhh... you wouldn't want to drink any WB ink with all the humectants, mildacides, formalahyde etc. that goes into them. I would have no fear to eat a spoonful of plastisol. I wouldn't like it, but it's better than WB components.

The reason to use WB inks (as I have for since 1980) is because in a large shop with bulk purchases and a 'Hill' homogenizer mixer you can make a gallon of ink for $5.

It really does't effect consumers very much which ink you choose, it effects the printer.


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## tdeals (Dec 13, 2006)

Hi Richard-

Thanks for the tips and resources. That's a great approach for me to inquire with the ink selling companies. 

I'm located in NC (North Carolina) and here are my reasons for wanting to use water-based inks for screenprinting:

-Desire a human and animal "healthy" ink on apparel
-Desire an ink that's environmentally-friendly
-Desire an ink that allows the fabric to breathe
-Desire a complete, soft-hand feel
-Desire an ink that will allow the customer to iron the apparel (if needed)
-Don't desire an ink that will crack
-Don't desire an ink that sits on "top" of clothing 
-Don't desire an ink that has an odor/chemical smell/or that will cause any respiratory issues

That about sums it up.

Thanks again!


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## Fluid (Jun 20, 2005)

> In the past it was for soft hand prints, but since the 80's, plastisol inks can be made and printed so you can't feel them.


From the posts I see here and in other Industry forums, the lack of knowledge is the biggest reason I see people wanting waterbased prints. As you mentioned plasticol prints can be just as soft with little to no hand as waterbased prints. Also most printer just scoop inks from the bucket and start priting.


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## tdeals (Dec 13, 2006)

Fluid said:


> From the posts I see here and in other Industry forums, the lack of knowledge is the biggest reason I see people wanting waterbased prints. As you mentioned plasticol prints can be just as soft with little to no hand as waterbased prints. Also most printer just scoop inks from the bucket and start priting.


I appreciate your response also Fluid.

With that, are you implying that plastisol inks will satisfy all of my needs mentioned in the last post?

If so, help me understand what I'm missing about plastisol screenprinting so that I can move past the point of having a lack of knowledge.


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## Fluid (Jun 20, 2005)

I wasnt directing that you hand lack of knowledge just most in general. I see a lot of people asking how was this done it feels so soft and the first reply is waterbased.

I have to bolt but will try to get some stuff together tonight for you.


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## tdeals (Dec 13, 2006)

Fluid said:


> I wasnt directing that you hand lack of knowledge just most in general. I see a lot of people asking how was this done it feels so soft and the first reply is waterbased.
> 
> I have to bolt but will try to get some stuff together tonight for you.


Cool, thanks a bunch!


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## instrumental (Dec 28, 2006)

that is the holy grail, and is not feasible at the moment, unless you want to take it back to ancient india and get into print/dying methods from natural plants, and all the inks that are achieving those type of things are expensive and people dont want that cost added to their production, but i did talk to willflex about some inks like that, like i said...expensive...waterbased discharge without the formaldahyde and pvc/phthalate free...supposedly...are getting closer to what you want... but people at trade shows say alot of things





AdriaticBlue said:


> Hi Richard-
> 
> Thanks for the tips and resources. That's a great approach for me to inquire with the ink selling companies.
> 
> ...


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## RichardGreaves (Nov 7, 2006)

AdriaticBlue said:


> Thanks for the tips and resources. That's a great approach for me to inquire with the ink selling companies.
> 
> I'm located in NC (North Carolina) and here are my reasons for wanting to use water-based inks for screenprinting:
> 
> ...


Your points ARE the classic request and are not necessarily answered with WB inks. Don't be seduced into specifying WB inks. Specify the points you made above.

WB requires nastier internal chemicals than plastisol - and they all go into the air.

Plastisol soft hand does breath and can be ironed and can't crack because if it was a film on top of the shirt, it wouldn't be soft-hand.

If ANY ink has an odor after initial washing, IT IS NOT CURED.

I read your posts on bamboo shirts this afternoon. You are in very good hands with Eric Henry at T.S. Designs.

Plan on going to the Charlotte Printwear Show June 7-9. Alas, I will not be doing my usual seminars because I will be a the FESPA show in Berlin. I will have Denise Breard substituting for me. Denise has been a screen printer for more than 20 years, is an Academy of Screen Printing Technology member, works for the SGIA part time and not one of those nasty boys that won't help you.

In Charlotte make sure to visit the Nazdar booth and Union booth with your questions.

I _will_ be in Kings Mountain, NC on May 17-18 for the much smaller and intimate Texsource Open House. Jeff Proctor from Union ink and I will be there giving seminars. Welcome to Texsource!


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## instrumental (Dec 28, 2006)

RichardGreaves said:


> WB requires nastier internal chemicals than plastisol - and they all go into the air.
> 
> Plastisol soft hand does breath and can be ironed and can't crack because if it was a film on top of the shirt, it wouldn't be soft-hand.
> 
> If ANY ink has an odor after initial washing, IT IS NOT CURED.


 

yes...everyone is seduced into water based being eco friendly...


if you visit the union ink booth talk to joe caddlezone, he is a great help


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## RichardGreaves (Nov 7, 2006)

instrumental said:


> if you visit the union ink booth talk to joe caddlezone, he is a great help



Joe Catizone is the Sales Manager at Union Ink. [email protected]


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## Solmu (Aug 15, 2005)

Fluid said:


> There is no way waterbased printing will take the place of plasticol inks. The general screen priting market (Corporate, etc.) is stuck on the old skool way of printing, especially the athletic market using high opacity inks. I just dont see it happening at elast in my lifetime.


I don't really see it happening in those markets either (and those markets are going to make up the majority of clients for most printers). But the fashion tee, and even the web based tee, I could see turning around (well, the fashion tee already has for now). I think plastisol will start to be seen as a sign of an athletic or corporate tee, so people in other fields will want to distance themselves from that.


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## Solmu (Aug 15, 2005)

re: eco friendly...

The argument being presented here is one of WB ink vs. plastisol ink... I thought the reason WB was considered better for the environment wasn't the ink itself, but because it cuts down on the solvents required to clean up after yourself.


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## tdeals (Dec 13, 2006)

RichardGreaves said:


> Your points ARE the classic request and are not necessarily answered with WB inks. Don't be seduced into specifying WB inks. Specify the points you made above.
> 
> WB requires nastier internal chemicals than plastisol - and they all go into the air.
> 
> ...


All points taken Richard, and from everyone else chiming in here. Classic request huh? Didn't know I was such a classic chic! 

I'm open and willing to learn about safe plastisol inks being an option. As you can see, it was very easy for me to believe that water-based inks were "the way" to satisfy my points. 

I came to this belief by the contacts I've made and by reading claims on the company sites I've found who print with water-based inks. I'm not an expert by any stretch to say they are false claims. But I will say to you all, thanks for opening my eyes and telling me to learn what else is available. I need to be well educated about the printing process decision I will eventually make.

Also, I enrolled myself and business partner for the Printwear Show in Charlotte last weekend which I know will be a wealth of info. I have noted the booths/companies everyone has advised me to visit.


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## RichardGreaves (Nov 7, 2006)

Solmu said:


> re: eco friendly...
> 
> The argument being presented here is one of WB ink vs. plastisol ink... I thought the reason WB was considered better for the environment wasn't the ink itself, but because it cuts down on the solvents required to clean up after yourself.


It's bad business to rinse perfectly good ink down the drain. If I scrape all the ink back into the bucket it should only take a few squirt sprays of a clean up chemical to clean the screen regardless of the ink. Water is cheaper than any plastisol cleanup chemical. 

BUT

80% of every gallon of WB ink has to be heated and evaporated into the environment. It takes longer and needs a larger dryer. Plastisol is 100% solids and does not evaporate anything.

In bulk, a large screen printer can make a gallon of ink for $5 vs what ever you paid last week for a gallon of plastisol is the strongest reason to use WB inks.


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## Fluid (Jun 20, 2005)

> 80% of every gallon of WB ink has to be heated and evaporated into the environment. It takes longer and needs a larger dryer. Plastisol is 100% solids and does not evaporate anything.


So now more energy is required and one has to ask does this compensate for the minimal chemical use?


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## Greg Hamrick (Jan 25, 2007)

And as for the future...take a water based printed tee and a pastisol printed tee, put them in the ground and dig up the remains in ten years and you'll find a pastisol print. The water based ink is in the ground, killing all those poor little critter-varmits and us folks that eat them.


.


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## aust1025 (Mar 1, 2007)

I actually started using water based ink, i ordered a gallon of opaque plastisol
but havent tried it yet. The company i used to work for used plastisol on everything though.


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## Mr.4ColorProcess (Dec 5, 2005)

Ahhhh, the classic argument from design, yet we're not talking about religion, we're talking about WB inks -vs- Plastisol based inks. And all of the information in this post is a case point in regression. 95% of people who want water based inks are thinking that they're helping the environment somehow. What about the pre-press chemicals and reclaiming the screen you just used? All of this requires highly concentrated chemicals that wash down the drain at some point and right into our precious ocean. And all of this happens in the exact same way a plastisol transfer works. What about all of the greenhouse gasses and energy consumption a screen shop uses to create the water based design? O.k, I'm getting away from myself here...

The real reason water based inks are not the ink of choice for screen printers trickles down to a couple of reasons.

1. Water based inks are not cheap. This is a common misunderstanding on the consumers part.

2. Screen shops are designed and geared towards plastisol inks. Changing production techniques costs money. Plain and simple. Have you ever tried to keep water based inks in a screen? They splash all over your equipments and are very hard to use in hi-production lines.

3. Water based inks are very unreliable and they haven't yet achieved the solid color status of plastiol based inks. White is very hard to print and absorbs the colored garment for a dull look.

4. Water based inks do not last as long on the garment as plastisol inks. 

In the licensed printing business which I am in, I've only run across a couple of companies that want water based inks. Patagonia is one of them and guess what? They're a eco-friendly company. They think they're helping the planet with water-based inks! What about all of the heavy industry that created all of the fabric they use in their garments? It's a joke and don't get sucked in to it. Because water-based inks help the environment about as much as my girlfriends aerosol hair spray does. 

Sorry about my Thursday morning rant,

-- Jimmy


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## Fluid (Jun 20, 2005)

Jimmy your right on


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## Rodney (Nov 3, 2004)

Just looking at this from the outside, it seems like some screen printers are very "anti" water based inks. 

Makes me wonder why such hard feelings for the process when some printers work with it just fine?

I think some of the water based ink technology has to have changed or something, because I have a few shirts printed with water based inks and they seem plenty opaque and durable.

I don't think it helps to try to "talk someone out of" trying to help the environment.


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## RichardGreaves (Nov 7, 2006)

Rodney said:


> I don't think it helps to try to "talk someone out of" trying to help the environment.


How do water based inks help the environment? I believe every post I have made is to remind printers that WB inks need just as much care and disposal as plastisols.

I love WB ink.

Just because they are water based, that doesn't mean the solids in the ink are any safer or less toxic. Mmm. Formaldahyde, ammonia and mildewcide.

If people think they are somehow safer, they will be more casual with how they dispose of them.


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## Mr.4ColorProcess (Dec 5, 2005)

When the techniques of water based ink printing are improved, not just on small scale manufacturing but large scale manufacturing too, maybe then the process of water based inks will catch-on on a larger scale. But this kind of printing has been going on for over 20 years now. It's never really evolved from a manufacturing stand-point. Plastisol ink, and now PVC-free inks are more attractive to screen printers for their reliable, consistent, time-proven qualities that customers demand. And the techniques of this kind of printing has evolved not just with direct printers but even more with indirect printers. It's kind of like discussing the rotary engine -vs- the cylinder engine. 

Nowadays we have a move toward eco-friendly products. Water based inks are simply a misconstrued mention of the "every little bit of change helps" philosophy. That's why it doesn't sell with printers. Because it's BS. If water-based inks were of any improved quality maybe printers would use them. And the ink manufacturers know this too. That's why there's very few ink distributers who actually market water based inks. You have to attend a trade show to actually catch an ink distributer marketing them. 

Some printers have a market for water based ink clients, and a lot of those printers are swamped with work, but it's a small market and it's an even lesser known trade. And this isn't because pvc ink printers want to destroy the world with our poisonous inks.



-- Jimmy


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## tdeals (Dec 13, 2006)

Rodney said:


> Just looking at this from the outside, it seems like some screen printers are very "anti" water based inks.
> 
> Makes me wonder why such hard feelings for the process when some printers work with it just fine?


You've pretty much summed up what's been going on in the back of my mind. It's no secret that I'm new to the screenprinting industry and have a lot to learn but, keeping an open mind as well.  

I've recently read about Formeldahyde-free water-based inks and one screenprinter I've contacted uses this. I'm excited though about speaking with ink manufacturers (water-based and plastisol) to learn just what makes up the ink they sell and who they sell it to. 

*Has anyone ever asked a screenprinter what brand of ink they use and have you seen proof of it in a factory tour?* It's very easy for me to continue reading claims of what ink is being used on web sites but how much of it can be trusted when I'm in NC and they're in WA?

This is another reason why I'm hard pressed about working with at least 1 primary screenprinter within driving distance to get a plan tour and see what they use. I've already done this with TS Designs who was very open and welcoming. Their REHANCE process is ideal, just not feasible for me starting out, but I'm keeping it in the fold so that when I do all of my fee comparisons with the printer I plan to give my business to, I'll know for certain. 

There's another local shop I've reached out to for a tour. Let's see if they are willing to give me one.


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## Rodney (Nov 3, 2004)

> How do water based inks help the environment? I believe every post I have made is to remind printers that WB inks need just as much care and disposal as plastisols.


My point was actually that if someone is trying to help the environment and trying to learn, telling them that all the other parts of the production will still mess up the environment doesn't seem helpful. 

The feeling I was getting from reading the posts was "water based ink sucks", "plastisol ink is the best no matter what you say"  I'm here learning as well and I may have read too much into the posts so far.



> Some printers have a market for water based ink clients, and a lot of those printers are swamped with work,


That's the part I didn't understand from previous messages. I know there's a market for water based ink printing. Lots of big fashion brands are using it. The previous posts seemed to be hinting that *nobody* does it and nobody wants to do it.

Also some of the posts about how it doesn't last as long or isn't opaque enough haven't been my experience with the water based ink printed shirts that I've seen.

It would be really interesting for me to be able to see the same design printed with water based inks and with plastisol inks that have been made to give the water based feel (soft or zero hand).

I haven't seen a multi color design on a dark shirt printed with plastisol inks ever have a really soft hand. But I'm the first to say that I don't know it all and haven't seen it all


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## Rodney (Nov 3, 2004)

> t's very easy for me to continue reading claims of what ink is being used on web sites but how much of it can be trusted when I'm in NC and they're in WA?


I'm not sure why any reliable business would lie to you. That just doesn't make good business sense.


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## swkowboy (Jan 23, 2007)

I really don't care if it is better for the enviroment then plasitsol or not. If we're talking about high fashion tees, people want that vintage feel. I have tried to have designs printed with plastisol with high mesh, one hits, and the vibrance is compromised. ALL of the trendy clothing stores carry tees with WB inks. American Eagle, Gap, A and F, urban outfitters, Buckle...ect THey obviously are selling that type of tee for a reason.


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## Solmu (Aug 15, 2005)

Rodney said:


> Just looking at this from the outside, it seems like some screen printers are very "anti" water based inks.


Very true. There are a lot of myths about waterbased ink - the best advice is not to believe everything you read (positive or negative). Not everything in this thread is true for example (some of it is clearly a complete load of crap to anyone with *any *experience with waterbased inks - for example "Have you ever tried to keep water based inks in a screen? They splash all over your equipments").



Rodney said:


> I think some of the water based ink technology has to have changed or something


I suspect so. I get a real 70s vibe when I hear a lot of what people have to say about waterbased inks. I just don't have enough experience to know where they're coming from though, and (most importantly) to separate fact from fiction.

I've been told a lot of things that contradict other things I read. I am 100% positive that not everything I'm told is true, and equally positive that not everything I read is true. The difficult part is figuring out which is which.

I know a couple of ex-printers who won't go anywhere near plastisol. They still print with waterbased, but they hate plastisol. So while I'm influenced by their opinion, I just don't know who to believe.



Rodney said:


> Also some of the posts about how it doesn't last as long


This is a particularly good example. I've been told the *exact opposite* by fans of waterbased ink. Each "camp" claims they have the longest lasting product. One or both of them has to be wrong. I have no idea which it is (which is why I've largely tried to stay out of this thread - there are a lot of myths, but I don't have the knowledge to dispel them).

For anyone who wants to learn the facts though, it is incredibly frustrating.


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## Solmu (Aug 15, 2005)

AdriaticBlue said:


> *Has anyone ever asked a screenprinter what brand of ink they use and have you seen proof of it in a factory tour?* It's very easy for me to continue reading claims of what ink is being used on web sites but how much of it can be trusted when I'm in NC and they're in WA?


Maybe I'm just too trusting, but I can't imagine anyone bothering to lie about this. They might refuse to answer, or not have an answer (because they vary their brands), but if they give you an answer I think it's probably the truth.


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## tdeals (Dec 13, 2006)

RichardGreaves said:


> Joe Catizone is the Sales Manager at Union Ink. [email protected]


For some reason, this email address is bouncing back to me. Therefore, I sent a detailed email of my questions about their ink options to [email protected] and awaiting an email reply or phone call, as I left my number.

Another ink company I was referred to that I've already contacted immediately told me to talk to one screenprinter about my needs. That was not the answer I was seeking but it's okay. Actually, I had already contacted the printer they referred me to and they primarily do one type of screenprinting.

I replied back to this same ink company stating that I need to be educated on *all *of their applicable ink types for what I'm trying to satisfy (of my list mentioned earlier in this thread). Waiting for another response...


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## RichardGreaves (Nov 7, 2006)

AdriaticBlue said:


> ... this email address is bouncing back to me. Therefore, I sent a detailed email of my questions about their ink options to [email protected] and awaiting an email reply or phone call, as I left my number.


I apologize. The proper address is [email protected] 

The rep for the south is Jeff Proctor. These discussion are beyond the ability of forums. Call him on 866-770-4657. 




AdriaticBlue said:


> Another ink company I was referred to that I've already contacted immediately told me to talk to one screenprinter about my needs. That was not the answer I was seeking but it's okay. Actually, I had already contacted the printer they referred me to and they primarily do one type of screenprinting.
> 
> I replied back to this same ink company stating that I need to be educated on *all *of their applicable ink types for what I'm trying to satisfy (of my list mentioned earlier in this thread). Waiting for another response...


Don't be scared. Which ink company.


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## Mr.4ColorProcess (Dec 5, 2005)

AdriaticBlue said:


> *Has anyone ever asked a screenprinter what brand of ink they use and have you seen proof of it in a factory tour?* It's very easy for me to continue reading claims of what ink is being used on web sites but how much of it can be trusted when I'm in NC and they're in WA?
> 
> This is another reason why I'm hard pressed about working with at least 1 primary screenprinter within driving distance to get a plan tour and see what they use. I've already done this with TS Designs who was very open and welcoming. Their REHANCE process is ideal, just not feasible for me starting out, but I'm keeping it in the fold so that when I do all of my fee comparisons with the printer I plan to give my business to, I'll know for certain.
> 
> There's another local shop I've reached out to for a tour. Let's see if they are willing to give me one.


Each individual ink, water-based, soy, uv, plastisol or inkjet have a particular quality to them that is distinguishable from the other. You can't lie about what kind of inks you use. You just can't.

As for wanting a tour of the print shop, sometimes it's not always a good idea to bring people in your work area. Look at the other side of the problem. What happens if you fall over something on the ground while you're walking around in my shop? Maybe you get ink on your nice pants as you walk by a 5-gallon ink bucket. If you're worried about me lying about something as obvious as a particular ink, then I'm worried about you suing the crap out of me for getting ink on your $200 dollar jeans.

But don't get me wrong, at least once a week I'm taking a customer on a tour of our shop, showing them the step-by-step processes of production. And these people fall in to two categories; the person who's relatively new to the business and the business owner or owners of a company who want to tour our shop to validate our manufacturing capacity. 

Just give your printer a weeks notice before asking to stop by and check the work area out. Not only does it give them time to clean the area up, but it gives them time to schedule an honest amount of time with you while you're actually there.


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## tdeals (Dec 13, 2006)

Mr.4ColorProcess said:


> As for wanting a tour of the print shop, sometimes it's not always a good idea to bring people in your work area. Look at the other side of the problem. What happens if you fall over something on the ground while you're walking around in my shop? Maybe you get ink on your nice pants as you walk by a 5-gallon ink bucket. If you're worried about me lying about something as obvious as a particular ink, then I'm worried about you suing the crap out of me for getting ink on your $200 dollar jeans.
> 
> But don't get me wrong, at least once a week I'm taking a customer on a tour of our shop, showing them the step-by-step processes of production. And these people fall in to two categories; the person who's relatively new to the business and the business owner or owners of a company who want to tour our shop to validate our manufacturing capacity.
> 
> Just give your printer a weeks notice before asking to stop by and check the work area out. Not only does it give them time to clean the area up, but it gives them time to schedule an honest amount of time with you while you're actually there.


I completely respect and understand this. Thus far, I've visited two facilities to sit down and talk about their printing options, pricing and to see samples of their work in person. Both times, I did not go unannounced or without an appointment. It was only after I got to the facilities did I ask at that time if I could take a walk through their plant, as I've never seen a screeprinter shop and I'm new to this industry. Both were kind enough to oblige.

AB


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## bund tees (Apr 28, 2007)

I am using water based inks as a small time printer - I have been tinkering with moving over to plastisol becuase my screens keep getting clogged even though I wash then thoroughly after each print - I try and use turps etc to unclog the fine print areas of my screens but with no joy. Aftr a few months I need to expose a new screen because the fine print areas are beginning to clog up again.
Is there something out there that can help me clean paint build up in the finer print areas of my screens?


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## markthenewguy (Mar 17, 2008)

can you cure waterbased inks with a heat press?


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## RichardGreaves (Nov 7, 2006)

markthenewguy said:


> can you cure waterbased inks with a heat press?


Yes. The shirt and ink both have to reach 300°F to 320°F to cure the water based resin.

You can also put them in your Moms oven.


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## lancelot (Jun 1, 2007)

There have been alot of realy great points made in this thread,in my opinion re. WB & the future, is nothing will change, because at the end of the day Plastisol is so forgiving, and printers just want jobs to run as simple as possible.
I printed with WB for years (untill I could afford a flash cure and heat tunnel ). We had it down to a fine art, but still stuffed up shirts hear and there.
your labourour needs to be fast and know exactly what to do.
The job needs to be in register strait away,cause chasing rego is enough to cause a dry in, you need to spray a fine mist of 50% water and 50% reducer after each print (but not to much that it will bleed through(this happens alot)) If it is a long run WB does this horrible Ink thickening thing (due to water evaporation from hot plattern)and you have to scrape it out, remix it in the tub and refresh. 
I have found that the retarders do next to nothing,and are very expensive and toxic.
And heaven help if your squeegee falls in to the Ink, you need to clean your hands or you have to use the dry cleaning gun, when you get back to the carousel all your fine lines have dried in, and WB does not clean like solvents ,you have to scrub .
By the time she is clean the other screens are dry and need to be cleaned! This will probably take about 1 litre of water a screen and 2-3 large rags ( you can use the shirts you stuffed up last run ).
It is very hot in Australia and a workshop can realy heat up ,this has its own set of problems. 
As stated in a previous post WB is not good on dark unless you give it 2 coats(print flash print) there goes your soft hand argument .
I apologise if I have come across as verbose, but I suppose I would like to highlight the problems encountered by printers using this Ink . 
There is such a small profit margin, most printers just want an easy job.
Also everyone wants Plastisol transfers so they can heat press from there home.

my thrupence haypenny

Dyslexics of the world untie


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## staned (Feb 25, 2007)

welcome brother, i'm dyslexic, left handed and a medical marijuana user. stan - DDAM (mothers against dyslexic dopers) poster boy. left on bro! screw righty!


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## taasmas (Feb 13, 2008)

Solmu said:


> re: eco friendly...
> 
> The argument being presented here is one of WB ink vs. plastisol ink... I thought the reason WB was considered better for the environment wasn't the ink itself, but because it cuts down on the solvents required to clean up after yourself.


Infact WB inks use solvents... Plastisol inks do not contain any solvents at all...


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## tullawulla (May 3, 2008)

ok, ,, I'm learning loads here about WB v Plastisol. Ultimately WB is probably less environmentally friendly, but gives the 70's vibe. Plastisol is open to argument on the environ thing and has a greater density therefore not so soft. With this in mind and I kind of agree, what does a newbie choose for a home one screen setup (walk b4 i run)?


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## LitPrinter (Apr 25, 2008)

Hello to All,
At firts sorry for my english, because it is not my native language.
At second I also would like to say only my opinion about water base inks. So, printing with water based inks about ten years and will print in the future (of corse sometimes I am printing with plastisol also). In my opinion advantages of water based inks are:
1. Eco friendly, because in East Europe we printing for world clothing brands, which have very high requirements (Oeko-Tex, Eco-Labelling and etc.)
2. Better price comparing with plastisol (in East Europe)
3. Soft Hand, because couple of last years we printing mainly with discharge on dark and pigment pastes on light knitwear. So, I don't remember when I last time switched on my flash units, all prints going wet on wet (for simulated process also printing without underbase, just remaking chanels in photoshop after FastFilms separating them).
4. More easy and quick to wash screens after work, because washing with water.

Thats all for this time an it is only my opinion and I don'n have anything against plastisol, because as I said sometimes we printing plastisol (especiallly on workwear, nylon).

Thank You


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## staned (Feb 25, 2007)

hi litprinter, what brand of ink are you using?


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## LitPrinter (Apr 25, 2008)

Hi,
We use discharge ULF range from Magna Colours (UK) if customer do not want wash garments after printing (in USA You know this stuff as Wilflex Oasis discharge, because Wilflex only sell this product in USA under its own brand) and usual discharge which must be washed off after printing from CHT (Germany). 
Sometimes, when it is imposible to discharge dark fabric we using lacquers (covering water based pastes) also from Magna Colours and Manoukian-Argon (Italy).
For light fabric it is we prefer to print with pigment pastes from CHT or Magna Colours(it is non covering paste mixed with pigments for printing wet on wet. It is not very important which producers paste to use, because all them are almost the same (butadienic or acrilic binder, water and thickener).


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## tullawulla (May 3, 2008)

hi lit printer

thanks for your info although no one has really defined what is eoclogical about WB inks. Many people believe they are just as bad as plastisol, you seem to be very experienced in this area- could you explain the ecological tag to WB? 

i'd like to print on darker garments and denim is this economical/economical with WB inks?


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## LitPrinter (Apr 25, 2008)

Talking about ecological things regarding WB inks the main thing is that almost all WB inks are biodegradable and also printer use much less harmful chemicals (of corse it is not imposible not to use chemicals at all, especially in pre-print process). 
Many peoples in this forum talking that it is difficult to work with WB inks even if they have automatic printing lines. It is not true (only my opinion), just it is a little bit diferent in details, but all main things are the same
Talking about economical things, as I said in previous topic, it is cheaper to print with WB in East Europe, but it is important to have automatic press and long dryer with air recirculation, because with manual machine You will be wash creens after each round and You will loose time and runability. Actually we using manulal machine only for sample printing. 
If You want to print with WB on dark cotton I suggest to made some trials with discharge or covering lacquers. For denim it is special shemicals and they work almost the same as discharge, but it is possible to dilute with water and then You can not to print , but spray on garment with airgun (sorry, but I do not know how to call sraying tool in English)


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## tullawulla (May 3, 2008)

thanks litprinter

I get the general idea. The WB maybe a little bit more involved for me as I would be using a manual printer for limited runs. I think you mean spray gun (jets of water) for cleaning screens or airbrush for direct painting of colour. Thanks for your time in helping explain this matter


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## LitPrinter (Apr 25, 2008)

You're welcome Thanks for explaining, in prievous topic I mean airbrush


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## johnblaze (Apr 3, 2009)

Hi Im new here and interested in starting an at home biz with a two color manual press...I've been readying these WB vs Plastisol posts for a while now...from some of the posts I've gathered is that the soft hand of WB is unmatched and this is what most fashionable companies are using now (Guess, Ed Hardy, Parasuco,etc...) But I have also heard some people say that Plastisol can achieve this soft hand. Im a designer and I am interested in creating two color large fashionable prints that resemble high quality shirts.... What should I purchase - WB or Plastisol?

I know that there are some issues with WB on darker fabrics but if Im to go with Platisol what are the techniques to get an extremely soft hand like WB. Im interested in the soft hand feel that feel like the ink is part of the fabric... 

Ive been looking at some of my own shirts and was wondering how do you know that difference between WB and Plastisol on a fabric besides the soft hand because as some mentioned that soft hand can be achieved with Plastisol aswell?

Im also thinking of purchasing 2 - 110 or 156 screens, is there a recommendation for either WB or Plastisol or can I use both screen types for either ink?


thanks for your help in advanced....


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## Solmu (Aug 15, 2005)

johnblaze said:


> I've been readying these WB vs Plastisol posts for a while now [...] What should I purchase - WB or Plastisol?


You've read the threads - you tell us 



johnblaze said:


> if Im to go with Platisol what are the techniques to get an extremely soft hand like WB.


Add reducer to the ink, use a high mesh count.



johnblaze said:


> Im interested in the soft hand feel that feel like the ink is part of the fabric...


Plastisol will never be part of the fabric; it's a layer of PVC that sits on top of it. It can be such a thin layer it's not noticeable.



johnblaze said:


> Ive been looking at some of my own shirts and was wondering how do you know that difference between WB and Plastisol on a fabric besides the soft hand because as some mentioned that soft hand can be achieved with Plastisol aswell?


Sometimes it's just not that obvious. There are things like if it's shiny, it's plastisol. If it has absolutely no hand at all, it's not plastisol, etc. As a printer you can somewhat get a feel for the difference. But at the end of the day, it won't always be possible to know the difference.



johnblaze said:


> can I use both screen types for either ink?


All equipment and most supplies are interchangeable between plastisol and waterbased printing. Plastisol requires some extra chemicals for cleanup (whereas with waterbased you use water), and some emulsions aren't water resistant (but some can handle both plastisol and waterbased).

Most of the time it's the same techniques and equipment for both inks though.


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## Georgies (Jul 30, 2008)

we print with wb every day, no problems here... we make our own colors(base,pigments,mixing,filtering) and have no problems whatsoever...but weve been doing it for 25 years lol


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## johnblaze (Apr 3, 2009)

thanks for your responses....Im thinking Wb ink maybe the way to go at the moment for the look I would like (although I may try a sample of both WB and Pastisol, maybe a black print just to see the differences)...but I wanted to know if there are metallic WB inks aswell. Im interested in creating a large backdrop print and then a metallic gold linage print above it.

Solmu, in terms of high mesh count would 156 mesh be subtable enough for WB or a thinned out Plastisol ink? or should I go higher? (my graphics have a reasonable amount of detail, mostle scrolls and linage art)

P.s. Im in Toronto Canada do you guys have any suggestions on where to get some quality ink here. Im currently looking at inks at Lancer Group but was wondering if there were any others to compare.

P.s.s. I noticed some people mention WB clogging a lot in the screen should I be worried about this if Im only going to be printing maybe 10-15 shirts at a time? any tips to avoid clogging screen with WB? Can I also use a heat gun/iron to cure/dry WB inks, I believed I heard someone mention this but I just wanted to make sure. Mind you this setup will be in my basement so I wont have a drying oven or anything like that...what would be the best way to cure/dry WB inks for a person with a small setup?


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## Solmu (Aug 15, 2005)

johnblaze said:


> I wanted to know if there are metallic WB inks aswell.


Yes, there are.



johnblaze said:


> Im interested in creating a large backdrop print and then a metallic gold linage print above it.


Depending on the look you're after, you might be better off doing the gold in foil.



johnblaze said:


> Solmu, in terms of high mesh count would 156 mesh be subtable enough for WB or a thinned out Plastisol ink? or should I go higher?


It'd be decent, yeah. Normally a beginning printer would start lower, but you can go even higher - so it's a reasonable midground. Once you start doing some test prints you might be surprised just how much detail you can get out of even a 110. By the time you're looking at a t-shirt from outside of someone's personal space, you can't see _that_ much detail


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## Solmu (Aug 15, 2005)

johnblaze said:


> P.s.s. I noticed some people mention WB clogging a lot in the screen should I be worried about this if Im only going to be printing maybe 10-15 shirts at a time?


No.



johnblaze said:


> any tips to avoid clogging screen with WB?


Mist with water. Work quickly. Add retarder.



johnblaze said:


> Can I also use a heat gun/iron to cure/dry WB inks


Yes.



johnblaze said:


> what would be the best way to cure/dry WB inks for a person with a small setup?


Heat press.


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## Adam Becker (Mar 22, 2009)

johnblaze said:


> thanks for your responses....Im thinking Wb ink maybe the way to go at the moment for the look I would like (although I may try a sample of both WB and Pastisol...


Totally, it's all about your preference or the preference of your client



johnblaze said:


> would 156 mesh be subtable enough for WB or a thinned out Plastisol ink? or should I go higher?


yeah, I think 156 is awesome, and I even use up to 230 for dark colors on light garments, although you have to be more conscious of ink drying in the screen because of the finer mesh. Keep in mind you may have to use different emulsion for WB as opposed to plastisol. Some aren't formulated for WB.



johnblaze said:


> P.s.s. I noticed some people mention WB clogging a lot in the screen should I be worried about this if Im only going to be printing maybe 10-15 shirts at a time? any tips to avoid clogging screen with WB?


 Sometimes I have trouble when doing runs of like 10-15 shirts as test prints. I just got a sample of this stuff about two months ago, and it's awesome -->Water Based Screen Opener and Cleaner For WB Inks. .... If the ink starts to dry in your screen in between flash curing and/or loading a new shirt or something, you can spray it on the screen and it will keep it open; as long as you use it judiciously. I like it better than ink additives because it can be used separately from the ink in varying amounts. No problem with detail bleeding out either, in my experience. 



johnblaze said:


> Can I also use a heat gun/iron to cure/dry WB inks, I believed I heard someone mention this but I just wanted to make sure.


Flash dryers are ubiquitous for a reason. You need to pay a lot of attention when you're using one with water based inks because they will heat up your platen and could cause ink to dry in the screen, but they are awesome if you're careful.


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