# Can owners of SWF Dtg Viper VS. M&R iDot give opinions.



## Relik Apparel (Jul 10, 2009)

Hello, I am new to this business and are leaning between a SWF Dtg Viper and a M&R iDot.

I would appreciate the input of the knowledgeable people out there in regards to differences, if you copy and paste the questions and answers would be great as i have not found any other thread out there specificaly comparing these units.

I understand the Viper has a new type of ink tips which is made of some kind of porcelain instead of plastic like most of the other ones. 

*Do the inks cost the same for both machines?

Does either machine spend more ink than the other on a comparable design?

Is one software better than the other?

Which company has better customer service SWF or M&R?

Any other opinions or important facts that i did not list and should be brought up.*

Thanks, with your cooperation this should be a great thread. I am new to the business and do not want to make an early mistake, but i am so very glad i join this forum. In a couple of weeks i have learned what would have taken me countless trips and meetings with different reps and manufacturers. Once again , thank you to all of you out there that share your experience and hard earned knowledge with novices like me. *THANK YOU.*


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## Alex M (Apr 23, 2009)

*re: Can owners of SWF Dtg Viper VS. M&R iDot give opinions.*

I would appreciate the input of the knowledgeable people out there in regards to differences, if you copy and paste the questions and answers would be great as i have not found any other thread out there specificaly comparing these units.

I understand the Viper has a new type of ink tips which is made of some kind of porcelain instead of plastic like most of the other ones. 

*Do the inks cost the same for both machines?

The inks for the machine are the same, so it just depends on where you buy it on how much it costs. Some companies charge more for white ink and some don't. I have a list of pricing from some companies and would give it to you if you PM me.

Does either machine spend more ink than the other on a comparable design?

No, the print heads are the same. It depends on what resolution you print in that varies the ink usage. Also the cost will vary per print on how much you spend on your ink.

Is one software better than the other?

I have used both softwares from both companies. I owned a t-shirt shop that used a DTG and got hired out of there to work for the manufacture of the i-dot.

Which company has better customer service SWF or M&R?

I am biased to this one as I work for one of the companies. But I have seen good out of both of them.

Any other opinions or important facts that i did not list and should be brought up.*

*GET TRAINING!!! If you are new to DTG printing no matter which printer you buy training is the most important thing! On how to pretreat, cure, set up art work. Once you learn how it is all very simple to do. Just know that there is about a 2 week learning curve with any printer. (also varies on how much you use it and time you put in)*
Thanks, with your cooperation this should be a great thread. I am new to the business and do not want to make an early mistake, but i am so very glad i join this forum. In a couple of weeks i have learned what would have taken me countless trips and meetings with different reps and manufacturers. Once again , thank you to all of you out there that share your experience and hard earned knowledge with novices like me. *THANK YOU.*

I HAVE POSTED THIS THREAD IN BOTH THE SWF DTG PAGE AND ON THE M&R PAGE.[/QUOTE]


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## Don-ColDesi (Oct 18, 2006)

*re: Can owners of SWF Dtg Viper VS. M&R iDot give opinions.*

Dee,

When comparing any valid direct to garment machines a lot will come down to the actual distributor/dealer that you will be relying on for support. Both machines you are looking at have a solid backing at the top level DTG Digital/M & R, but support will mostly be handled by the actual company you purchase from - ie - SWF East or Mesa in the US for DTG or the local M & R distributor for the i-dot. The question becomes - how well are they equiped to support he machine you are buying? Do they have a bank of experienced, dedicated direct to garment techs, are they relying on other technical personel to learn the process or do they have any dedicated direct to garment support personel at all. As Alex related, training is very critical. We find that 80% of our tech support calls come from the 20% of the customers who do not attend training (even though we offer it for free).

I hope you find this helpful!


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## Alex M (Apr 23, 2009)

*re: Can owners of SWF Dtg Viper VS. M&R iDot give opinions.*

I agree, and the training on the i-dot is free as well. But the one thing that I disagree with you on is the tech support for the i-dot. We do train our dealers very well on the i-dot and they are very versed on the technical aspect of the machine. But I prefer that they call our company directly. This ensures us that they would get consistent assistance as our service department works on the machine daily. The i-dot service department is also separate from our graphic/textile service departments and they specialize in the i-dot/i-screen.


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## Relik Apparel (Jul 10, 2009)

*re: Can owners of SWF Dtg Viper VS. M&R iDot give opinions.*



Alex M said:


> *
> Is one software better than the other?
> I have used both softwares from both companies. I owned a t-shirt shop that used a DTG and got hired out of there to work for the manufacture of the i-dot.
> *


[/quote]

not to sound redundant on the same issue, but based on your experience which one would you recommend to a newbie like me. thanks


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## Alex M (Apr 23, 2009)

*re: Can owners of SWF Dtg Viper VS. M&R iDot give opinions.*

I would recommend testing both of them out and seeing which one you like best. Or sending a file of yours and have each company print them on a white and black shirt and then send them to you. If you don't have a file to send then I will print one of ours for you and send it out to you. Where are you located? I will let you know who is around you that you can get in-contact with about our printer.


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## Relik Apparel (Jul 10, 2009)

*re: Can owners of SWF Dtg Viper VS. M&R iDot give opinions.*



Don-SWF East said:


> Dee,
> When comparing any valid direct to garment machines a lot will come down to the actual distributor/dealer that you will be relying on for support.


thanks don, your input is well appreciate it as i known you as an active member of these forums and have found that are indeed very knowledgeable about your product.

my whole intention when i started this thread was to kind of differentiate between apples and apples. in your opinion would the idot be comparable to the viper or the hm1?


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## Relik Apparel (Jul 10, 2009)

*re: Can owners of SWF Dtg Viper VS. M&R iDot give opinions.*

hey alex, i didnt recognize you in the forum, you already did, just today i met with your international rep in miami, BY THE WAY I MET WITH *LUIS PEREZ*, EXCELLENT, EXCELLENT SERVICE, I AM VERY PLEASED HE HAS A TON OF EXPERIENCE ON THE BUSINESS AND SUPERB CUSTOMER SERVICE, HOLD ON TO HIM!!! YOU HAVE AN EXCELLENT SALES REP RIGHT THERE


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## Alex M (Apr 23, 2009)

*re: Can owners of SWF Dtg Viper VS. M&R iDot give opinions.*

I am glad you had such a good experience it is always a good thing to hear. Like I said earlier I work with the i-dot everyday so if you need any questions answered specifically about that machine just write and e-mail and I will be glad to help.


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## Don-ColDesi (Oct 18, 2006)

*re: Can owners of SWF Dtg Viper VS. M&R iDot give opinions.*



> But I prefer that they call our company directly. This ensures us that they would get consistent assistance as our service department works on the machine daily.


I'm not questioning whether you train your dealers well, I have a lot of respect for M & R and know they would not lack in training. Ultimately it is a difference of opinion. We were one of the earliest dealers for the T-Jet for US Screen. We chose to pursue our own product line because of the disconnect with our customers that came from having US Screen providing support (or, often times, failing to provide support). I would hope that the dealers you set up have at least one tech who works with the printer consistenctly as well.

In regards to the software questions. The DTG dealers in Europe and Asia sell the Kothari software with their machines (Kothari is the software sued by M & R). North and South America use the RIP Pro software developed by iProof Systems. We used the Kothari software in the early DTG days, but chose to port to RIP Pro because of ease of uses and versatility.


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## Don-ColDesi (Oct 18, 2006)

*re: Can owners of SWF Dtg Viper VS. M&R iDot give opinions.*

Dee,

The i-Dot and Viper are based on the same print engine, meaning they will print the same width of print (basically slightly under 17"). The Viper will print a longer image (29") than the i-Dot and comes with our exclusive WIMS (White Ink Management System) that circulates and filters white ink. The HM-1 does the same but is of a smaller format (12.5" x 18""). 

The Viper represents the true third generation of DTG brand direct to garment printers, while the i-Dot is still a first generation machine. We (DTG) have taken the 4+ years of experience we have in the direct to garment field and applied it to the Viper. Just as I would not expect a new entry into the automtic screen print press marketplace to build a machine as well thought out as an M & R automatic, I don't think that any first generation machine in the direct to garment marketplace can be as wel thought out and designed as the Viper.


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## Relik Apparel (Jul 10, 2009)

*re: Can owners of SWF Dtg Viper VS. M&R iDot give opinions.*

i think it would be great if owners of both machines commented on their personal experiences with both companies.

*to deviate a little from the subject, i have a technical question and would appreciate the input of experienced printers out there , Alex's and Don's input would be greatly appreciated:
* 
my understanding is that when printing on dark, one should usually expect better results when using 100% cotton. because the white ink will not adhere to polyester well, however CYMK will, right? 

now what kind of results could i expect on dark 50/50 garments , is it even an accepted business practice to print on dark 50/50 garments or should i just stay away from it completely?

*machine vs. machine*

once again my knowledge and experience is very limited, i understand that both machines are based on the same Epson 4800 head, does that include the ink tips/nozzles?

i think the Viper has some kind of new "porcelain tips" (what are they called?) does the idot have the same kind of ink nozzles.


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## Don-ColDesi (Oct 18, 2006)

*re: Can owners of SWF Dtg Viper VS. M&R iDot give opinions.*

You are correct in assuming that white ink printing is a cotton specific process. Anything over 10% polyester becomes a "try it and see" proposition. 

If you want feedback from Viper users, check this thread:

http://www.t-shirtforums.com/dtg-brand/t85734.html

as well as others in the DTG section of the forums. 

One difference between the i-Dot and the Viper would be the warranty - the Viper has a 2 year warranty.


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## socalfmf (Jan 9, 2007)

*re: Can owners of SWF Dtg Viper VS. M&R iDot give opinions.*

dee,

I am a user of the I dot...after many many hours of deep research I chose thd I dot.

I did this because of a few key elements that was lacking in the other machines.

#1. M&R is a manufacturer of machines...they do this all in house. They know the PRINTING industry. they do not sell embroidery machines, plotters, ect...they are also not a distributor they are the people who make the machines.

#2. 24/7-365 support. M&R has tech support 24 hrs a day 7 days a week. I enjoying having this piece of mind knowing if something did go wrong then I would have a person to call whether it was 2 am or 2pm.

#3. The machine training was very in-depth. We tore the machine down to replace everything in the event that it might have and issuse(so far since january my machine has worked great)

#4. the white inks....this is the biggest sticking point with a lot of people. We print about 90% on darks and the I-dot has been great. Pretreatment takes a little getting use to but once you have it shirts will look killer.

#5. M&R is a 20+ year business that has always stood behind their products and has great customer service.

I would go to the training and get the knowledge to run the machine and then go back and print print print.

Any questions you can contact me at sam at palomarprinting dot com.

hope this helps a little from a real user

sam


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## sunnydayz (Jun 22, 2007)

*re: Can owners of SWF Dtg Viper VS. M&R iDot give opinions.*

Just a note here 

It is great for the distributors to give their input on both machines, however keep in mind Don and Alex are going to give you information for their machines that leans towards their machines, as they are distributors. 

So to the distributors, please keep in mind the self promotion rules here on the forums, and stick to facts about the machines, without going into asking for contact from the poster.

It would also be great if we could get more opinions from actual users, that use these machines with their business models. This is the best info you can get, as it is real world opinions based on daily use, and the business model it fits.


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## sunnydayz (Jun 22, 2007)

*re: Can owners of SWF Dtg Viper VS. M&R iDot give opinions.*



socalfmf said:


> dee,
> 
> I am a user of the I dot...after many many hours of deep research I chose thd I dot.
> 
> ...



Hi Socal 

Hey I was wondering if you could do me a favor and reply in this post also http://www.t-shirtforums.com/direct-garment-dtg-inkjet-printing/t41520.html, its basically a question thread on each printer, and it would be great if you could add your info on your Idot there as well. Thanks


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## Alex M (Apr 23, 2009)

*re: Can owners of SWF Dtg Viper VS. M&R iDot give opinions.*

Don and Alex are going to give you information for their machines that leans towards their machines, as they are distributors. 

I am not a distributor. I work for M&R.


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## sunnydayz (Jun 22, 2007)

*re: Can owners of SWF Dtg Viper VS. M&R iDot give opinions.*

I guess my point was that Don of course if going to have more positive info for dtg machines, because he works for DTG, and you are going to give more positive info on the Idot as you work for M & R. It was not meant in a bad way, it is just the way it would work with each of your jobs surrounding each machine. I was merely stating the fact that a person who only owns or the other, in a business setting using it on a daily basis for their particular business model, is going to be able to give more of a real life opinion based on how it works for their particular business


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## Alex M (Apr 23, 2009)

*re: Can owners of SWF Dtg Viper VS. M&R iDot give opinions.*



sunnydayz said:


> I guess my point was that Don of course if going to have more positive info for dtg machines, because he works for DTG, and you are going to give more positive info on the Idot as you work for M & R. It was not meant in a bad way, it is just the way it would work with each of your jobs surrounding each machine. I was merely stating the fact that a person who only owns or the other, in a business setting using it on a daily basis for their particular business model, is going to be able to give more of a real life opinion based on how it works for their particular business


I totally agree with you! Sorry if I sounded like I was coming down you. That was not my purpose at all it was just to clarify. And if you need any references we have them available. Every time we sell one of our units we asks the customer if it is okay for others to contact them about our machine. Obviously some say yes and some say no. But the ones who are open to talking about out machine we have the contact info for and would gladly send people it in a PM or e-mail.


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## Don-ColDesi (Oct 18, 2006)

*re: Can owners of SWF Dtg Viper VS. M&R iDot give opinions.*



> It would also be great if we could get more opinions from actual users, that use these machines with their business models. This is the best info you can get, as it is real world opinions based on daily use, and the business model it fits.


Great point Bobbielee, let's start with you. What brand of direct to garment printer do you use, and are you satisfied with it?


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## stix (Feb 3, 2008)

*re: Can owners of SWF Dtg Viper VS. M&R iDot give opinions.*

Come on play fair.. She has an HM1 but it was before the IDOT arrived on the scene. Hopefully both will be at the Bmore Printwear show. I will provide a file that I expect both machines to produce on the spot with NO tweaking. I will post the results on the forum.


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## sunnydayz (Jun 22, 2007)

*re: Can owners of SWF Dtg Viper VS. M&R iDot give opinions.*

I do have the HM1 and yes it was before the idot. I Have not seen the idot in action as I did not make it to the last show due to having surgery. I am hoping to see it at long beach. I am very happy with my HM1 and have had it now for 2 years. I only had a couple of little things that were fixed right away, so I have to also agree that tech support is 50% as important as the machine itself. I have always gotten fast support from Mesa in placenta, they have been wonderful to me.

I think I am probably one of the longest HM1 owners out there, as I got it fairly soon after they came out. Of course now they have the new ink circulation system on them, but I have been fine without it  I don't think its unfair to ask what printer I have, as I am also just a member and machine owner here as well. I dont own the viper so I cannot give feedback on it, but it does look like a great machine. Hopefully it will also be at the long beach show, so I can see both it and the Idot  I am sticking with my HM1 though.


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## Don-ColDesi (Oct 18, 2006)

*re: Can owners of SWF Dtg Viper VS. M&R iDot give opinions.*

The Printwear shows have become quite small as of late. I know that M & R was not at the Indy Printwear show and we only had a 10 x 10 booth (single head emb mach and HM-1) as did Hirsch and Barudan. I doubt that M & R will be at Baltimore, at this time we are not scheduled to do it. Best bet to see them both in action will probably be next month in Schaumburg at the ISS show. It's in M & R's backyard and we have an office in Schaumburg, so it's a fair bet that both machines will be there.


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## Don-ColDesi (Oct 18, 2006)

*re: Can owners of SWF Dtg Viper VS. M&R iDot give opinions.*



> Come on play fair.. She has an HM1 but it was before the IDOT arrived on the scene. Hopefully both will be at the Bmore Printwear show. I will provide a file that I expect both machines to produce on the spot with NO tweaking. I will post the results on the forum.


It is not always practical to print files on demand at the shows. We get this request probably 3-4 times oper show and can generally do so about half the time - based on the number of folks attending the show. Early on the first day and anytime on a Sunday at a show are generally the slowest times and best times to get custom work done.

Maybe I'll see you in Schaumburg!


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## stix (Feb 3, 2008)

*re: Can owners of SWF Dtg Viper VS. M&R iDot give opinions.*

Last year Nazdar had the IDOT at their booth.


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## Don-ColDesi (Oct 18, 2006)

*re: Can owners of SWF Dtg Viper VS. M&R iDot give opinions.*

Maybe so - not certain. Attendance at the show in Indy was so low that I doubt we can justify the expense of the Baltimore show - costs us about $10-15,000 by the time it is all said and done to do a 10 x 10 booth with two employees and a couple of machines. Hard to justify when you end up with only about 30-40 leads from a show. We'll be in Springfield Mass in November.


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## Relik Apparel (Jul 10, 2009)

*re: Can owners of SWF Dtg Viper VS. M&R iDot give opinions.*



dee305 said:


> _*my understanding is that when printing on dark, one should usually expect better results when using 100% cotton. because the white ink will not adhere to polyester well, however CYMK will, right?
> 
> now what kind of results could i expect on dark 50/50 garments , is it even an accepted business practice to print on dark 50/50 garments or should i just stay away from it completely?*_
> 
> ...


I appreciate all the input, we deviated a little from the subject and i would like to restate the 2 questions above.

The reason I ask Don and Alex to join the post is because I believe they are both very knowledgeable about their machines. These are questions I would be asking reps from each respective company anyways.

And of course we have to respect the forum's rules, but on a personal level I dont mind self promotions as I am a buyer and are looking for a machine now. Thank you.

_Also, i would very much like to have more end users involved here but dont know how to accomplish that. Maybe a more descriptive title or key words. Or maybe both machines are very new and not many owner out there. dont know_


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## sunnydayz (Jun 22, 2007)

*re: Can owners of SWF Dtg Viper VS. M&R iDot give opinions.*



> my understanding is that when printing on dark, one should usually expect better results when using 100% cotton. because the white ink will not adhere to polyester well, however CYMK will, right?


The dupont ink that these machines use is not made to print on polyester. It is made to print on natural fabrics, so the higher content cotton the better the print you will get with the white and cmyk, they basically both work the same, aside from having to pretreat the dark shirts for white ink.



> _*now what kind of results could i expect on dark 50/50 garments , is it even an accepted business practice to print on dark 50/50 garments or should i just stay away from it completely?*_


You can try to print 50/50, however because of the statement in the previous answer, the ink will only bind to the cotton fibers, therefore a 50/50 shirt is not going to be as vibrant as a 100% cotton shirt. It will look faded compared to a 100% cotton shirt. This is because the inks are again not meant for poly 



> _*once again my knowledge and experience is very limited, i understand that both machines are based on the same Epson 4800 head, does that include the ink tips/nozzles?*_


The print head itself is going to be the same, as they are basically epson parts, and the heads themselves are not modified. What will be different is how the Rip software works and what settings each has. This is going to determine alot about your prints.

It may be that printhead might have a porcelain surface? I am not sure and have not heard of this. Maybe Don or Alex can clarify this. 



> And of course we have to respect the forum's rules, but on a personal level I dont mind self promotions as I am a buyer and are looking for a machine now. Thank you.


Some may not mind self promotion, but the rules are the rules  They are here for a purpose, and it keeps the forums a place where users can learn from other users, and not be bombarded with sales posts. This also keeps it easier to find things, if you are not having to sift through tons of sales posts. 

It is not a problem for them to answer questions about the machine if someone is asking those questions. We just do not allow the vendors asking members to contact them and such. This way it keeps the forum running smooth with tons of helpful info for other users 



> _Also, i would very much like to have more end users involved here but dont know how to accomplish that. Maybe a more descriptive title or key words. Or maybe both machines are very new and not many owner out there. dont know_


It is very possible that the owners of both of these machines is more limited as they have not been out in the market for that long


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## sunnydayz (Jun 22, 2007)

I edited the title to make it more descriptive and also moved it to the general Direct to Garment Printing section, maybe this will help to get more users opinions


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## marksie (Jan 10, 2008)

I have had a blazer for 14 months,,and i like it,,it is a machine and needs care,,but works well for me,, use it everyday,, and it is really fun to print,,clients seem always happy


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## Don-ColDesi (Oct 18, 2006)

Some clarifications on the Viper - it is based on the Epson 4880, not the 4800. Print quality on the valid direct to garment printers on the market that use the same engine should be pretty similar, especially when using similar inks and RIP software. The issue that most potential buyers seem to concern themselves with is maintenance/white ink flow issues. The Viper has a circulation system that helps to limit these issues. The system circulates the white ink, stirring it as well in the resevior as well as filtering it every loop through the system. The cover to the Viper is wide and easy to open to facilitate the daily maintenance that should be done to minimize down time.

Hope this helps to clarify some things!


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## cavedave (Dec 5, 2006)

Don, you should change your signiture to "I ink, therefore I drink".

Best regards

-David


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## Don-ColDesi (Oct 18, 2006)

Dave,

There are, for sure, days that I feel that way. Sort of like trying to push a rope uphill!

Take Care,


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## Relik Apparel (Jul 10, 2009)

Don-SWF East said:


> Some clarifications on the Viper


Ok, maybe I m all wrong here , but the "ink nozzles" on the Viper, are they the same as the ones on the kiosk, hm-1... or are they different on this 4880. I had heard that they where coated or something so less ink would stick to them?


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## cavedave (Dec 5, 2006)

The Epson 1800, 1900 and 4800 heads are all the same except that the serial numbers which you use to dial the head into the machine.
So you can swop these heads about and they will work, but the serial number which is used to deal with certain alignment when fitting a new head wont work.

The 4880 head I havent tried swopping, but suspect would also work as it is the same head as the 4880 but with a new coating which is meant to make it more robust (less likly to scratch), so more likely to survive if it touches a shirt.

I think the 4880 head will work in a 4800, but dont know that for sure.

Best regards

-David


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## Don-ColDesi (Oct 18, 2006)

Dee,

Any direct to garment printer that is based on the Epson 4880 or 1900 will have the coated heads you are describing. The Viper and the current HM1-C models we are selling have this coating (the Viper is based on the 4880 and the HM1-C has 2400 engine with the 1900 head unit). 

Hope this helps to clarify things!

By the way, Dave, the 1800 & 1900 are not the same head, the 1900 is newer and has the "coating", but you are correct about the serial numbers.


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## Relik Apparel (Jul 10, 2009)

COOL ! Another technical question, how about printing on spandex? I ordered a sample of a shirt 95% cotton / 5% spandex, is that as bad as poly ? or is it printable ?


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## Don-ColDesi (Oct 18, 2006)

Spandex is printable.


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## WholesalePrint (Sep 23, 2008)

> HM1-C has 2400 engine with the 1900 head unit


Don I thought you said the HM-1C has a 2400 head?


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## sunnydayz (Jun 22, 2007)

My Hm1 has the R2400 printhead.


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## Don-ColDesi (Oct 18, 2006)

> Don I thought you said the HM-1C has a 2400 head?


Yes I did, but, the latest version (within the past 3 weeks), now comes with a 1900 head. It was a decision made based on several factors, one being the coating on the head. Everything else in the Epson part of the printer is the same, just the printhead itself is different.


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## DizzyBella (Nov 8, 2010)

I Agree oo


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