# The Sticky World of Internet Advertising



## monkeylantern (Oct 16, 2005)

Evening all.

Our new site will be up and going in a few weeks, and so we're gradually lurching towards the inevitable marketing phase.

Previously, I've sold to boutiques and on our old site (taken down last year as I was emigrating to Australia from the UK....yes, being easily able to emigrate meant we sold very well  ). This time I'm aiming even higher, and so the whole marketing beast now has to be faced.

I'm planning this time to launch as an eBay store (a damn swanky eBay store though, not you run-of-the-mill vile rubbish, as I'm a long time HTML fiddler). We did a test run a few months ago, and sales, from the get-go, were superb.

However, I also have a sizable marketing budget to splash around. What are your top tips for marketing spending? I know many of you purchase space and list on Rodney's site. How has that altered click-through/sales? Any noticable difference if you creep up the list? (Obviously, you have to be polite about tshirtcountdown.com, else Rodney will smack you.)

Any other recommended places? Anyone have experience with the various Adwords programs? What gives the biggest bang-for-your-buck?

I've been screenprinting and selling tshirts for many years....I'm an internet advertising virgin.


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## monkeylantern (Oct 16, 2005)

I should add: my main worry is all of the 5 or 6 main t-shirt listing sites seem to be flooded with very specific types of shirts: simple sentence humour, the shock value rude, relgious shirts, and political shirts.

Our work is far more the Threadless style of arty-surrealism, for which there doesn't seem to be much of an advertising base through sites (even though it's one of the best selling niches)


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## Solmu (Aug 15, 2005)

monkeylantern said:


> I know many of you purchase space and list on Rodney's site. How has that altered click-through/sales? Any noticable difference if you creep up the list? (Obviously, you have to be polite about tshirtcountdown.com, else Rodney will smack you.)


At the risk of offending people, I'm going to be completely honest about my opinion of T-Shirt Countdown. I've never advertised on the site, and I have no idea how useful it is for sales. My experience with T-Shirt Countdown has only been as a potential customer, and do bear in mind that my opinion reflects only that. Also, all my complaints are about the content of the sites on there, which Rodney is not responsible for - I am not addressing the mechanisms of the site he has put in place. I also have no intention of pointing fingers at specific sites.

People who don't like a site tend to leave without saying anything, so you never know what people don't like about a site. So for once I'm not going to do that. Two things to bear in mind 1) I am only one type of customer, and for some of you I am not your target customer. 2) Don't dismiss what I have to say too quickly though, because I definitely represent a certain t-shirt buying demographic. With that out of the way...

When I first came to T-Shirt Countdown, it was because I wanted to buy more t-shirts for myself. I knew people interested in getting into the business, but didn't think I would be one of them. So there was no ulterior business motivations - I was _only_ a (potential) customer.

On that visit, I found T-Shirt Countdown to be pretty much useless for my needs. I have a good memory for brands and websites, and only one stuck in my mind as being worth remembering - paperplain.com. They were one of only a very small number of sites that was actually professional and selling a quality product (they didn't close a sale with me because 1) They don't have my size, 2) They might be a little _too_ plain (I'm still undecided). I still think of them as a good company and visit from time to time to see if anything's changed).

I found almost all the sites fell into one of three categories in my mind:

1) Anti and Pro Bush shirts. Mostly specifically Bush related rather than just political in general. Some of these were well done, but most weren't.
2) Really twee religious shirts. Some of these had good messages and ideas, but I didn't like the design of any of them.
3) Really, really crude shirts. I wasn't offended by them, but they simply weren't funny. Add to that the fact that they were all very badly drawn and they didn't capture my interest.

The sites that didn't fall into one of those three categories (e.g. paperplain) were the ones I was most likely to visit. I have no interest in group 1 or 2 from that list, and 3 needs to be clever (not just offensive for the sake of it) to attract my interest.

Personally I was looking for clever slogans or nice graphic design. Crude or geeky humour, random elements, etc. Or for something to take me by surprise - I would never go looking for a site like paperplain, but I did visit. I buy a pretty wide range of shirts, but T-Shirt Countdown featured a very narrow choice.

One of the results of this was that I paid extra attention to the paid advertisements. Normally I would ignore them astutely, but I was there because I wanted to buy t-shirts and those in the countdown just weren't doing it for me. I remember literally feeling desperate to get off the site, but wanting to leave with _something_. Sites people had paid money to advertise were generally a lot better, so I paid more attention to those ads.

As a potential advertiser, I think this is actually a good sign for you. People come to T-Shirt Countdown because they want to buy a t-shirt - and yet there's nothing there worth buying. Advertise something worth buying and you can have a monopoly.

So that was then, what about now? Has the site changed *in my opinion*? I went and had another look, stopping at 220 (I always stop around 200, how long does it go on for?).

Yes and no. There are a lot more dedicated websites, and less people running CP Shops. There's a lot more people selling screen printed t-shirts. To me those are both big plusses. In general the calibre has raised quite a bit, but I'm still a t-shirt buyer and I still didn't buy anything. There have been improvements, but the problems I mentioned about only being a narrow range of genres are still present.

Most of the humour is either related to penises or feces, more often than not combined with sexism or bigotry. I didn't find that funny when I was six, and I certainly don't now. There are a lot more graphical shirts, I wouldn't buy any of them but it's good to see some diversity.

There are a few companies who I think are doing a decent job, some were there before, some weren't (some examples: parachutemonkey.com, catch23.com, ptees.com). I'd buy a couple of catch23 shirts if they didn't have their url on them, and I'd buy parachute's scurvy shirt if they weren't using AA. I might buy a couple of ptees shirts if they carried my size (I've liked that site ever since the owner first posted a message about it on these forums).

Others are flawed, but raising the quality standard, e.g. cracksmokingshirts.com, sackwear.com - I'm not a fan of either, but they're better than a lot of other sites doing the same thing. grooveking.com - a site that is a great example of why you shouldn't use flash to design an eCommerce site, but they look professional and have some nice tees (the website looks good, but it's very annoying to actually _use_).

In general I'd say the standard has raised, but there's still plenty of room for someone better to come along. Sites like Threadless & Busted Tees would blow any of these out of the water. I buy a lot of different webcomic t-shirts and most of those sites are run better than pretty much anything on T-Shirt Countdown (and often the t-shirts are just a sideline for them).

One piece of advice for those submitting t-shirts to the T-Shirt Countdown voting: if you have a good shirt printed on a colour (i.e. not black or white) then use that one. Colour attracts the eye more, but more importantly colour is one of the many subtle signs of a higher quality product (most of the shirts I end up buying are black, but I never start off looking for black).

Obviously the content will only improve as better sites start seeing it as a viable advertising outlet. I'd say in the short term it's worth considering because of the big-fish-small-pond scenario, and in the longer term as the quality raises everyone who survives will benefit. At the moment there's no reason for a customer to return to T-Shirt Countdown. After going once and finding very little worth your time, why would you go back? If it was full of vibrant submissions it would be worth returning to to check for updates.

Having had a quick look over the T-shirt Countdown advertising rates I'd say it's worth seriously considering. Obviously it'll be interesting to see what anyone here who has actually tried it has to say, but the rates do seem very affordable.


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## monkeylantern (Oct 16, 2005)

An excellent review....and pretty much sums up my first feelings for both tshirtcountdown.com and the other half a dozen similar sites.

I also only was really drawn to the advert block, half-way down the menu on the left. If I ever consider using them, it will probably be there.

I also worry about de-valuing my brand....I really don't want to be sandwiched between an iron-on "Bush is Satan!" and cafepress "Smell my Beaver!" shirt on the actual listing.

To me, that's what happened to those companies you pointed out. They have some excellent stuff....but I think are sullied in that company.

What I'm most distressed about is that you've discovered another t-shirt company involving monkeys........NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO (in my best James Earl Jones voice)


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## Solmu (Aug 15, 2005)

monkeylantern said:


> I also only was really drawn to the advert block, half-way down the menu on the left. If I ever consider using them, it will probably be there.


It's funny you should say that - that was the one I probably noticed least. The one I noticed most was the square on the top right, followed by the rectangle on the very top of the page.



monkeylantern said:


> I also worry about de-valuing my brand....I really don't want to be sandwiched between an iron-on "Bush is Satan!" and cafepress "Smell my Beaver!" shirt on the actual listing.
> 
> To me, that's what happened to those companies you pointed out. They have some excellent stuff....but I think are sullied in that company.


That's a very good point I hadn't entirely considered (and obviously it applies to wherever you advertise).

Ultimately though I don't think it'll do you any harm. Someone sensitive enough to let it tarnish your reputation would presumably not be at a site they don't like - so they wouldn't ever see the ads in question. If they tried to play the guilt by association game it would implicate themselves.

A paying customer is a good customer, so it doesn't really matter where they come from.

Which also leads into price. If they've come from an environment of low prices and low quality, they may not be willing to purchase items from your site if you don't have a similar pricing structure, even if you offer superior quality.



monkeylantern said:


> What I'm most distressed about is that you've discovered another t-shirt company involving monkeys........NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO (in my best James Earl Jones voice)


I have plenty more where that came from. If that distresses you I suggest you don't check out this site 

Thanks to monkeys being the big cool thing on the internet before the switch to pirates and ninjas there are rather a lot of apparel sites with monkey themes (ThinkGeek lists Monkeys as their first topic in "navigate by interest" for example).

With Peter Jackson making the King Kong remake, maybe we'll see a resurgence in interest in our simian brethren


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## DickTees.net (Apr 5, 2005)

monkeylantern said:


> I also worry about de-valuing my brand....I really don't want to be sandwiched between an iron-on "Bush is Satan!" and cafepress "Smell my Beaver!" shirt on the actual listing.


Don't assume that every offensive, rude or subversive shirt is a cheaply made piece of crap. We sell shedloads of our high quality screen printed offensive shirts printed on Hanes Heavyweights. Personally I prefer to wear a Threadless style shirt in my normal life. However, there are always meaningful opportunities to wear a shirt that mixes things up. Don't discount the importance of well made offensive merchandise.


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## Twinge (Apr 26, 2005)

Surprisingly, people do actually go into the lower ranks... I have a shirt that gets about equal hits from categories and the main list, and since I dind't ask anyone to vote for it this month its only got 1 vote (in the high 300s/low 400s). 

I think my biggest annoyance with the countdown is that votes/rankings have nothing to do with actual shirt popularily and everything to do with how many friends you want to bug to vote for you/how often you want to change your ip and vote for yourself. I can't think of anyway to really make it any better, though. I'm just tired of seeing 'these rims don't spin' at the top, I guess


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## DickTees.net (Apr 5, 2005)

Twinge said:



> Surprisingly, people do actually go into the lower ranks... I have a shirt that gets about equal hits from categories and the main list, and since I dind't ask anyone to vote for it this month its only got 1 vote (in the high 300s/low 400s).
> 
> I think my biggest annoyance with the countdown is that votes/rankings have nothing to do with actual shirt popularily and everything to do with how many friends you want to bug to vote for you/how often you want to change your ip and vote for yourself. I can't think of anyway to really make it any better, though. I'm just tired of seeing 'these rims don't spin' at the top, I guess


Wurd. This topic came up a few months ago. I think the vote system is completely pointless, since everyone (including Rodney) agrees that "Joe Visitor" to the countdown.... DOES NOT VOTE!!! A more accurate measuring stick would be click throughs.


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## Rodney (Nov 3, 2004)

Hi folks, thanks for the feedback on t-shirtcountdown.com, but that's not really the purpose of this topic (I don't think  )

If anybody has any other feedback for t-shirtcountdown, feel free to send me an email or post it in the Feedback forum. However, I would like to clear up a few things:



> I think the vote system is completely pointless, since everyone (including Rodney) agrees that "Joe Visitor" to the countdown.... DOES NOT VOTE!!!


I don' think I've ever said that "joe visitor" to the countdown does not vote. Actually, a lot of "joe visitors" do vote. They vote when the voting link is on one of their favorite t-shirt sites and when people come via search engines looking for t-shirts, they also vote (both by clicking "Buy this shirt" and by actually clicking on "vote for this t-shirt").



> I know many of you purchase space and list on Rodney's site. How has that altered click-through/sales? Any noticable difference if you creep up the list? (Obviously, you have to be polite about tshirtcountdown.com, else Rodney will smack you.)


I'll be the first to say that t-shirtcountdown doesn't work for *all* types of t-shirts. I can say for a definite fact that it *does* work for many types. And by work I mean sending targeted traffic and more importantly, *actual sales*.

Not all t-shirts are suited for t-shirtcountdown, and not all t-shirts will get added sales by being listed. I try to make it easy. Go ahead and signup for free and if you promote your voting link and the site works for you, great, you've just got some free sales. If it doesn't, you've lost nothing. If you like what you see and want more, you can upgrade.



> I should add: my main worry is all of the 5 or 6 main t-shirt listing sites seem to be flooded with very specific types of shirts: simple sentence humour, the shock value rude, relgious shirts, and political shirts.


I think this is mostly because these are the most popular types of t-shirt subjects at the moment (judging by sales and keyword searches).



> Our work is far more the Threadless style of arty-surrealism, for which there doesn't seem to be much of an advertising base through sites (even though it's one of the best selling niches)


How would you categorize these types of t-shirts? What would you search for (as a shopper) to find your style of t-shirts? This could mean that I need to add another category to the site 



> Obviously the content will only improve as better sites start seeing it as a viable advertising outlet. I'd say in the short term it's worth considering because of the big-fish-small-pond scenario, and in the longer term as the quality raises everyone who survives will benefit. At the moment there's no reason for a customer to return to T-Shirt Countdown. After going once and finding very little worth your time, why would you go back? If it was full of vibrant submissions it would be worth returning to to check for updates.


I appreciate your honest feedback, solmu. It gives me some ideas for improving the site (although I would hardly call you our "typical" visitor  )

I can say that we do have a high return visitor ratio and that we do send a good number of sales to the sites that are listed. Not just the top 50, but even to the number 1000 and below (I guess people are using the search more often than I thought). Obviously, as you get nearer to the top of the list, the more exposure you'll get and the better chance the sales will increase.

I actually get calls from customers (t-shirt buying customers) when they like (or don't like) a site on the list or when they are trying to buy a t-shirt from one of the companies there (or if they can't get a hold of a company they bought a t-shirt from)



> I also worry about de-valuing my brand....I really don't want to be sandwiched between an iron-on "Bush is Satan!" and cafepress "Smell my Beaver!" shirt on the actual listing.
> 
> To me, that's what happened to those companies you pointed out. They have some excellent stuff....but I think are sullied in that company.


I think you may have it backwards  If your shirts are of that great quality and superior design, then being listed next to designs of "lesser quality" would only make your designs stand out even more.

I wouldn't worry about being "sullied" by being next to a design you feel is inferior. If you're listed in Google or Yahoo (or eBay), you are already next to a wide variety of merchandise that is of varying quality. I don't think it is a point that your customers would care about too much. They just want to buy a cool t-shirt, they don't care how they found it.

But back to the topic of the original post, I would say that aside from the niche directories and lists like t-shirtcountdown, another method of online advertising would be to try Google Adwords, Blogads, or just find sites that you think your customers would visit and ask if they would like to be sponsored by you (you pay them for a text or banner link on their site).

Just like offline advertising...try to think of where your customers are, what they read, what they click on, what movies they see, and then get your product in front of their eyes.

I haven't seen your shirts (or maybe I have  ) or I might be able to be more specific, but there are lots of opportunities to advertise creatively online.


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## monkeylantern (Oct 16, 2005)

DickTees.net said:


> Don't assume that every offensive, rude or subversive shirt is a cheaply made piece of crap. We sell shedloads of our high quality screen printed offensive shirts printed on Hanes Heavyweights. Personally I prefer to wear a Threadless style shirt in my normal life. However, there are always meaningful opportunities to wear a shirt that mixes things up. Don't discount the importance of well made offensive merchandise.


I certainly wasn't attacking your store. Your advert-block in the menu was one of the main ones that caught my eye. They look very professional, and very well branded (I only just got your name's pun.....  ). I think you'd do very well on t-shirtcountdown.com. You have the right audience, and the best product in your range.

But, as I'm sure you know, it's a very full niche. This can work with you or against you. Clearly, you're near the top of the pile of a big market. But people may have also been burnt, as there are many cowboys in your market area, and the dread of getting another iron-on transfer is just too great.




Rodney said:


> How would you categorize these types of t-shirts? What would you search for (as a shopper) to find your style of t-shirts? This could mean that I need to add another category to the site


To be honest, I'm not very sure. Although we're not in any way the same as Threadless, we are in simliar niches. How you you define a Threadless shirt? Generally they are nice pieces of art. An art category? I doubt people would look there for them. Maybe retro.......but again, not exactly descriptive, and already means something else. Everyone describes their shirts as "Cool", even if they're "Dance for Jesus!" shirts. 

It's a problem. It's a very clear "style"....you know when you see one....but I'm not sure how you would name it.




Rodney said:


> I think this is mostly because these are the most popular types of t-shirt subjects at the moment (judging by sales and keyword searches).


To be honest, I think this is often due to the way people look for different t-shirts. Those looking for political/rude shirts are a very different beast to those looking for a Threadless, and I think they search differently too. The former would use sites like yours (because there are so many, and it no doubt does well in Google because of it), keyword searches for "rude", "offensive" etc.

The Threadless crew are buying more of a fashion item than a novelty item. I think they get known through word-of-mouth, people seeing the shirts on the street, "famous" connections, and a generally more underground sort of method. People would google "Threadless", not "cool shirt". They are a true brand.



Rodney said:


> I think you may have it backwards
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm certainly not saying they are the finest t-shirts on the net  . But I do get the feeling that those great sites, such as the ones Solmu listed, the ones which are less slogan and more quality art and surreal, get dragged down on the countdown. But it's all so subjective. Those sites which I feel sell the better goods, from those Solmu cherry-picked, are also those which have the most professional image. I don't think they can be compared to Cafepress, and it just seems a little sad that they're buried. They also have the "niche" problem. None are easily definable but easy to recognise. How do you categorise them?

And it's all to do with positive feedback. The more slogan shirts listed there, the better shopping experience it become for slogan shirt, and the more are listed. And the grain is buried even more by the chaff.

The only solution I can think of sounds very elitist. Some sort of alternative list for the pro-end, "fashion" shirts, where entry is by invitation and selection. A place for shirts like those of Threadless, La Fraise etc.



Rodney said:


> I haven't seen your shirts (or maybe I have
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Maybe you have. 

We were once unbranded. Most sales were through a range of stores in London, and select store across the UK, Although we also had a test-run on eBay and sold very well.

We're sort or arty minimalist. Our biggest seller (which funded this computer, and being able to live in Australia, and being able to eat) was the Extistentialist Prawn. You'd know it if you saw it . . A few weeks and we'll be back. Don't expect internet gold, but they're not bad.



Solmu said:


> I have plenty more where that came from. If that distresses you I suggest you don't check out this site


Damn those internet kids! I was monkey focused when they were still using a ZX Spectrum!


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## monkeylantern (Oct 16, 2005)

Self-censored for being grumpy and rude.

I'm sorry.

I'm out of coffee.

This is what happens.

Send me coffe.

Thanks.


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## SpacemanFL (Jul 1, 2005)

I hope that my brand of humor will eventually find a market. I am selling a few now but know it will take time to grow. My stuff is text only and PG-rated at most. Most of my jokes are based on things that people can identify with and I think that is the key to great humor.


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## monkeylantern (Oct 16, 2005)

SpacemanFL said:


> I hope that my brand of humor will eventually find a market. I am selling a few now but know it will take time to grow. My stuff is text only and PG-rated at most. Most of my jokes are based on things that people can identify with and I think that is the key to great humor.


Humourous slogans are a huge marktet. Trying something like Rodney's site will probably be a good move for your niche.


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## Twinge (Apr 26, 2005)

monkeylantern said:


> To be honest, I'm not very sure. Although we're not in any way the same as Threadless, we are in simliar niches. How you you define a Threadless shirt? Generally they are nice pieces of art. An art category? I doubt people would look there for them.


Artistic is something at least a few people look for, and it is already a category on the countdown. I've still got a long way to go before I show up very much in search engine results, but I have at at least 1 or 2 people find me searching for 'artistic t-shirts' =)


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## monkeylantern (Oct 16, 2005)

Twinge said:


> Artistic is something at least a few people look for, and it is already a category on the countdown. I've still got a long way to go before I show up very much in search engine results, but I have at at least 1 or 2 people find me searching for 'artistic t-shirts' =)


True, but what sort or "artistic" are they actually looking for? Van Gogh prints?


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## Rodney (Nov 3, 2004)

> But is that worthy of the "Best t-shirt on the 'net"? Or does she have the most friend's spamming vote buttons?
> 
> How can that be said to be "Best on the 'net", when it's probably sold 5 copies to various creepy old women with cat fetishes, whereas *any* threadless shirt has sold 5 or 6 thousand times the amount, and a totally different level of quality?


Since you have no idea how many shirts a store has sold, it's sort of unfair for you to categorize that site as "less worthy". Your idea of "quality" could be horrible to someone else, so it's not that easy to just say "threadless shirts are better than cat shirts". It's relative. 

It has the most votes, so it is on top. That makes it the best. 

If a t-shirt you like has less votes, vote for it. Get your friends to vote for it. Make a change in the t-shirt landscape by voting your favorites to the top. 

Your comments about that site and its potential shoppers are pretty rude. Let's try to keep the feedback *constructive*. Remember, no company bashing allowed (that means individual stores as well).

Let's keep this thread about "Internet Advertising" and not just about one particular site. If it's just a feedback thread about t-shirtcountdown, then it needs to be moved to the feedback forum (or taken off board).


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## Solmu (Aug 15, 2005)

Rodney said:


> Hi folks, thanks for the feedback on t-shirtcountdown.com, but that's not really the purpose of this topic (I don't think  )


I'd say it's part of the purpose, but yeah... only a small part. Still, this stuff is all very important (if potentially sensitive for all of us since it hits so close to home) and I think it's wending its way in and out of a few important issues.

While I often use specific sites for examples I'm generally talking about more general issues - most criticisms I level at T-shirt Countdown are about the industry as a whole for example.

That said, my lengthy first reply does seem to have hijacked the thread somewhat (sorry!). If anyone has any advertising experience, don't forget to chime in with it.



monkeylantern said:


> How you you define a Threadless shirt? Generally they are nice pieces of art. An art category? I doubt people would look there for them. Maybe retro.......but again, not exactly descriptive, and already means something else. Everyone describes their shirts as "Cool", even if they're "Dance for Jesus!" shirts.
> 
> It's a problem. It's a very clear "style"....you know when you see one....but I'm not sure how you would name it.


The majority of shirts on Threadless are Emo.

The only problem with that is that even when you tell loyal Threadless customers that, a lot of them are horrified. Most Emo kids don't realise they're Emo 

More seriously, Emo as a movement has changed and grown a lot in the last five years. It has a bad reputation amongst some people (who are still thoroughly in your target market) and it's somewhat contentious what is and isn't Emo.

Personally I'm partial to using the word "Mod" to describe some things in my every day life - I'd like to see the term come back into vogue. I think I'm relatively alone in that. Likewise I often call things "Geeky" because they are and I consider that a positive thing - using that word in the wrong marketplace will be Retail Death though.

There is the option of calling it something like "Mod / Emo / Rockabilly", indicating how hard it is to pin down but covering some of the relevant ground. "Stylish & Fashion" is another one.

This is a very definite "can't please all of the people ... " scenario though.




monkeylantern said:


> The Threadless crew are buying more of a fashion item than a novelty item. I think they get known through word-of-mouth, people seeing the shirts on the street, "famous" connections, and a generally more underground sort of method.


Someone has to be at ground zero to get that word-of-mouth virus spreading though, which is why I go to indexes. Most of the time I'm the "word-of-mouth" guy amongst my friends, so I'm looking to make my life easier (i.e. I want to find more stuff with less effort).




monkeylantern said:


> The only solution I can think of sounds very elitist. Some sort of alternative list for the pro-end, "fashion" shirts, where entry is by invitation and selection. A place for shirts like those of Threadless, La Fraise etc.


I like that idea, but given the subjective nature of it I can see why a webmaster may balk at it.



monkeylantern said:


> We're sort or arty minimalist. Our biggest seller (which funded this computer, and being able to live in Australia, and being able to eat) was the Extistentialist Prawn. You'd know it if you saw it.


You know that definitely rings a bell. Perhaps I saw it on a reseller's site?



Twinge said:


> Artistic is something at least a few people look for, and it is already a category on the countdown. I've still got a long way to go before I show up very much in search engine results, but I have at at least 1 or 2 people find me searching for 'artistic t-shirts' =)


As monkeylantern said, when I think of the genre "Artistic T-Shirts" I think of either reproductions (Van Gogh's Starry Night, Munch's Scream, etc.) or originals, generally of an airbrushed style image (faeries on toadstools, wizards on dragons, kittens playing with yarn, etc.).

Whereas when I think of a t-shirt which is artistic, I think of modern contemporary art. Things that take advantage of the medium. Post-modern iconography, packed to the gills with self-referentiality or other strange and/or unexpected bits of humour.

Basically the noun Artistic T-shirts and the way I use the adjective artistic are two different things to me.


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## monkeylantern (Oct 16, 2005)

Rodney said:


> Your comments about that site and its potential shoppers are pretty rude. Let's try to keep the feedback *constructive*. Remember, no company bashing allowed (that means individual stores as well).


I entirely agree. That was written while grumpy and low on coffee. I've edited out the message. Sorry. Don't hurt me.



Back to internet marketing.....

I know I've used Google Adword links to go to products....but I've never known anyone who actually uses them to sell.

Anyone any idea what the "bidding price" for a word like "t-shirts" would be? I imagine enormous.


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## Solmu (Aug 15, 2005)

Rodney said:


> Let's keep this thread about "Internet Advertising" and not just about one particular site. If it's just a feedback thread about t-shirtcountdown, then it needs to be moved to the feedback forum (or taken off board).


I agree with you 100% about the need to keep comments from being rude, and I know I myself often skirt on the wrong side of that issue.

But personally I do have to wonder why you keep trying to get us to stop discussing T-Shirt Countdown. Why move it to the private feedback forum that we can't see the posts in? And why move it off board where this group of people discussing the issue... isn't?

T-Shirt Countdown is part of the T-shirt business, and it's relevant to us here. By discussing it specifically we can also learn more about the business in general.

I can understand you being sensitive to unfair criticism of it (and feel free to call me on that if I am doing that), but I don't think it's reasonable to get us to stop discussing it completely.


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## monkeylantern (Oct 16, 2005)

Solmu said:


> But personally I do have to wonder why you keep trying to get us to stop discussing T-Shirt Countdown. Why move it to the private feedback forum that we can't see the posts in? And why move it off board where this group of people discussing the issue... isn't?
> 
> T-Shirt Countdown is part of the T-shirt business, and it's relevant to us here. By discussing it specifically we can also learn more about the business in general.
> 
> I can understand you being sensitive to unfair criticism of it (and feel free to call me on that if I am doing that), but I don't think it's reasonable to get us to stop discussing it completely.


I agree

Given its Wall Street Journal endorsement, and Wall Street's impressive Googability, it's central to the business (I only found it, and this site, through a link in the Wall Street Journal).

But I don't know how I'd handle it, if I was a webmaster of both "here" and "there". These forums are a little like the Union of T-Shirt Makers. t-shirtcountdown is part of "the Establishment". Tricky, and a thin line to judge.






Solmu said:


> You know that definitely rings a bell. Perhaps I saw it on a reseller's site?


Quite possible. I'm disappointed you didn't buy.  It'll be back in the new range, so you have a second chance 


EDIT: Given I'm mid-way through a Masters in English Lit, my grammar is spelling are shocking. It's all typos, I promise. Ahem.


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## Rodney (Nov 3, 2004)

> Anyone any idea what the "bidding price" for a word like "t-shirts" would be? I imagine enormous.


The key is to not bid on generic words like "t-shirts" because of the high competition. That's why I was trying to narrow down what exactly people who like your t-shirts would search for. Those are the terms you would need to go for. Is it "fashion t-shirts", "emo t-shirts" or something completely different. 



> But personally I do have to wonder why you keep trying to get us to stop discussing T-Shirt Countdown. Why move it to the private feedback forum that we can't see the posts in? And why move it off board where this group of people discussing the issue... isn't?


If the discussion is specifically about t-shirtcountdown and needs my feedback or input, then putting it in the feedback forum or via email is the best way to get my input on it. All the people who are in this thread dicussing it would be able to see it in the feedback forum. But feedback about a site (directed towards the webmaster) is meant to be a private thing, not a public one (unless the webmaster asks for public feedback).

If the discussion is just about t-shirtcountdown and it's merits and downfalls in general, then I have no problem with that. But when the posts start asking for my feedback on the matter or address me, then that's when it becomes private feedback.



> T-Shirt Countdown is part of the T-shirt business, and it's relevant to us here. By discussing it specifically we can also learn more about the business in general


I agree 



> I can understand you being sensitive to unfair criticism of it (and feel free to call me on that if I am doing that), but I don't think it's reasonable to get us to stop discussing it completely.


I don't mind criticism of the site and my intention certainly isn't to stop folks from discussing it completely. 

But rather than have a back and forth in a public forum about a site (like the kookietees thread), I think it is more constructive to have that type of topic "off board".

If folks want to discuss the site in general and how it has failed them or worked for them or things like that, that's cool with me. But when it becomes apparent that they are looking for my feedback or want my input on a specific issue, that's when it becomes something that needs to be taken off board.

I hope that clears things up 



> The only problem with that is that even when you tell loyal Threadless customers that, a lot of them are horrified. Most Emo kids don't realise they're Emo


That being said, I think I may add a category or 2 to to test the waters.



> If anyone has any advertising experience, don't forget to chime in with it.



I think someone here mentioned they had pretty good results by advertising in Rolling Stone. Now if your target market doesn't read rolling stone, then you may want to find another rag to put your ad in.

I noticed that threadless advertises in a few magazines, so maybe you want to advertise where they advertise (similar markets).

While You Were Sleeping magazine was one and I think Skratch Magazine was another.


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## Rodney (Nov 3, 2004)

> t-shirtcountdown is part of "the Establishment". Tricky, and a thin line to judge.


That's interesting. I always thought I was helping "the little guy" (including myself). Oh well, I guess we all see ourselves differently than others do


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## DickTees.net (Apr 5, 2005)

Rodney said:


> ...so it's not that easy to just say "threadless shirts are better than cat shirts". It's relative.
> 
> It has the most votes, so it is on top. That makes it the best.


Yeah, but... Threadless shirts are better than cat shirts. It was easy, I said it and it just plain feels good.  I also took a vote around the office and Threadless shirts won hands down over "the cat shirt". So I guess it's official... relatively speaking of course... Threadless shirts really are better.


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## monkeylantern (Oct 16, 2005)

Rodney said:


> That's interesting. I always thought I was helping "the little guy" (including myself). Oh well, I guess we all see ourselves differently than others do


Once you're the benchmark for t-shirt commerce in a Wall Street Journal piece, you're The Man, man. You're not the little guy any more! 

The Rolling Stone idea seems very promising. I imagine their advertising rates would be enormous though. Any links to example price break down anyone knows of?


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## monkeylantern (Oct 16, 2005)

DickTees.net said:


> Yeah, but... Threadless shirts are better than cat shirts. It was easy, I said it and it just plain feels good.  I also took a vote around the office and Threadless shirts won hands down over "the cat shirt". So I guess it's official... relatively speaking of course.


Shhhh! I took down my post about the cat shirt! We're not allowed to slam the cat shirt!

Hmmmm....cat shirt is No.1......Rodney defends the cat shirt.....Miss Marple would suspect perhaps cat shirt reached No.1 through ....ahem.... unprofessional means


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## Solmu (Aug 15, 2005)

Rodney said:


> I hope that clears things up


It does.



Rodney said:


> That being said, I think I may add a category or 2 to to test the waters.


If you're planning on re-jigging the categories I did find it a little strange you didn't have a Geek category (although there are computing and gaming categories, so there are appropriate categories for much of that stuff).

You and/or your customers may not be interested in that category, but I thought I'd mention it if you do plan on changing things and wanted to consider it.



Rodney said:


> I think someone here mentioned they had pretty good results by advertising in Rolling Stone.


I'm pretty sure that was sackwear of sackwear.com. (just did a quick search: here's the thread)

It was very interesting. If I remember correctly the advertising was quite expensive, and the orders and conversion rates went way up. Basically one of those things where having the capital to take the risk with is difficult, but if you have that and a solid site design it'll probably pay off.


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## monkeylantern (Oct 16, 2005)

Thanks for that link Solmu. In my scouring of the site, I somehow missed it.

A mention of 3k for an ad in thestore? That seems like a bargin to me. A little beyond my reach at this point (as we need to get the cobwebs out of the system first), but very interesting, and quite possibly a 6 month goal.

I was also wondering about their web ads.....can't seem to find the information on their website.

The Rolling Stone demographics are, let's face it, perfect.

We'll have to wait until our main site is up though. We're having a soft-relaunch as an eBay store. In our test run, the clickthrough was truely impressive. Obviously if we go the Rolling Stone route, it would have to wait until our webstore launch.


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## Solmu (Aug 15, 2005)

monkeylantern said:


> probably sold 5 copies [snip], whereas *any* threadless shirt has sold 5 or 6 thousand times the amount


It's only somewhat relevant, but I thought I'd clear it up: Threadless aren't as big as a lot of people think.

If what you said was true (insufficient coffee notwithstanding) that would mean sales of 25,000-30,000 copies for every design they print.

Their bestselling design was Regrowth: Katrina, which sold about 7,500 copies (give or take a few dozen).

Obviously they are a heavy hitter in the business, but they don't sell *that* kind of quantity.


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## monkeylantern (Oct 16, 2005)

Solmu said:


> It's only somewhat relevant, but I thought I'd clear it up: Threadless aren't as big as a lot of people think.
> 
> If what you said was true (insufficient coffee notwithstanding) that would mean sales of 25,000-30,000 copies for every design they print.
> 
> ...


I was being generous wth the 5. It depends on the size of her immediate family...

And check below. Even though it's a charity t, any site that can sell $25,000 worth of product in 24 hours is, indeed, huge.

http://www.threadless.com/news/8707/UPDATE!_Regrowth:_Katrina


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## Twinge (Apr 26, 2005)

Solmu said:


> If you're planning on re-jigging the categories I did find it a little strange you didn't have a Geek category (although there are computing and gaming categories, so there are appropriate categories for much of that stuff).
> 
> You and/or your customers may not be interested in that category, but I thought I'd mention it if you do plan on changing things and wanted to consider it.


2nd. A Geek category might be a good idea. Then maybe the poker guys could keep the Gaming category


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## monkeylantern (Oct 16, 2005)

Twinge said:


> 2nd. A Geek category might be a good idea. Then maybe the poker guys could keep the Gaming category



Agreed. I was considering having a Geek category. It's just such a broad market. It's not all l33t and Warcraft puns.....although, against my brand and better judgment, I may have a Warcraft pun.


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## Rodney (Nov 3, 2004)

> 2nd. A Geek category might be a good idea.


Actually, my "geek" category is called "computer t-shirts". So if you have geek related tees, that's where you should go. 

If you search google for geek t-shirts, that's the category you'll find  Not sure why I selected computer over geek for naming, but I'm sure there was some grand scheming behind it (or it could have been one of those "sounded good at the time" things).


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## Twinge (Apr 26, 2005)

Well, not all geek stuff is computer based. E.g. my 'Potion of Invisibility' shirt which is more for roleplaying geeks (though it seems to be liked by non-geeks as well)... doesn't fit in computers and only kind of fits in 'gaming'.


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## Solmu (Aug 15, 2005)

monkeylantern said:


> Even though it's a charity t, any site that can sell $25,000 worth of product in 24 hours is, indeed, huge.


They actually sold $12,500 worth of product (they raised $25,000 for charity, but their turn over was $12,500). In more useful measuring terms, it was 1,250 t-shirts. Regrowth is an incredibly unusual case though. While other companies were trying to ride the publicity of *cough* generously offering 5% of their net profits to help the Red Cross, Threadless were donating 200% of their turnover. It's not surprising that news spread like wildfire - even a much smaller t-shirt company could have done pretty huge turnover if they'd had the money to make that kind of offer (admittedly the fact that they did have the money says a lot about their size).

But Regrowth is a very special case. In the space of a few days it outsold their best selling (and most often reprinted) design, which has been a massive favourite ever since its creation a year and a half ago. Even for Threadless Regrowth was incredibly unusual.

Anyway, it's obvious to anyone that Threadless is huge - my only point was that they're not as big as people sometimes think.



Twinge said:


> Well, not all geek stuff is computer based


I agree. I think of computing as being very specific, geek a lot broader. Geek also covers engineering, science, etc. (and as you said D&D / RPG). There isn't really a category for those sort of things, and they do sit comfortably alongside each other. That said, there may not be enough of them to justify a category (or too many to put them all together), I wouldn't have a clue.


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## Rodney (Nov 3, 2004)

Twinge said:


> Well, not all geek stuff is computer based. E.g. my 'Potion of Invisibility' shirt which is more for roleplaying geeks (though it seems to be liked by non-geeks as well)... doesn't fit in computers and only kind of fits in 'gaming'.


I understand that, that's why it's a broad category (that fits both computers and geek stuff). When customers come from search engines looking for geek stuff, that's the category they go to (so that's what category you'd want that design listed in if you want to be seen by people looking for geek stuff)


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## angryred (Jul 12, 2005)

Oh dear - this whole geek debate is far too close to the bone. We sell tshirts with Grim Reaper designs and scary looking women and apparently this is geeky even though there is no technology involved. We also created a very simple 'stealth geek' tshirt because we floated the idea around a few friends and they liked it. But if I was going to advertise my site to a specific 'geek' market I would actually redirect to a geek specific selection - pushing certain shirts higher with a separate url but hidden under the domain name. I think that as someone (Rodney?) said earlier, the key to advertising online is using very targeted keywords but backing that up with what they see when they get there. So If I wanted to push the poker shirt that we do (Dead Man's Hand - seems to be our bestseller) I would make sure that that was clearly visible on the page that adword linked to. I'm testing google adwords at the moment so I'll let you all know. Most of our sales come from ebay though. Just out of interest, we think there's something (things?) wrong with our site but we're just too close to it so if anyone else has any opinions, I'd be gald to hear them.


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## martin (Aug 4, 2005)

*What size **** does Solmu wear?*

I just want to know what size shirt Solmu wears?


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## Twinge (Apr 26, 2005)

angryred:

Well, for starters you need to look at your website in more browsers than just IE (IE is now at most 85% of the market now; I've had closer to 65% for my own site). It isn't horribly broken in Firefox, but it does have a horizontal scrollbar even at 1024x768 (ideally, there should not be one at 800x600) and the 'add to cart' button is mangled.

The rest of the framework doesn't line up right in Firefox either.

Having the search results section display, empty, on the front page is confusing and messy.

I don't think the minimize/maximize buttons are really needed, and they add extra complexity (and extra places people could get confused) to the website.

Your contact and FAQ should be a single click, instead of a dropdown with only one item.

Sometimes you have as many as 3 search boxes on the screen at a time. Again, confusing.

You should have a larger zoom in available for each shirt (this is one I need to do better on my own site still).

The default size should not be XXXL 

'Dr. Death's Self Diagnosis' is kinda funny, but had nothing to do with t-shirts, and probably serves to add more clutter to the site more than anything.

Your page is FAR too large. It will take someone on dialup a whopping 4 minutes just to load your front page! That's going to take an overhaul all around, but I'd start with your horribly large images; compress them to an 80 or 85 % quality jpeg, by their sizes I'd estimate they're at 95-100%. Use Irfanview (www.irfanview.com) if you don't have anything better - Photoshop is really bad at saving jpegs.

That's about all I've got for now. So in summary, you've alienated people on alternative browsers, people using 800x600 resolution, and people on dialup. That's quite a hefty chunk of potential customers right there! 

Your turn, Solmu.


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## Solmu (Aug 15, 2005)

Twinge said:


> Your turn, Solmu.


Heh, critique tag team eh?

The first thing I should mention is that I haven't had enough sleep, so I'm not thinking very clearly right now. I overlooked a lot of what Twinge said when I looked at the site - I don't know if that's because I'm tired, or just puts me closer to what the "average" customer would be looking at (it's not like most customers go to your site to tear it apart, they just sub-consciously take in a few things and judge the company on them).

I didn't find the search results thing confusing, but agree that it is messy. The horizontal scrollbar I didn't notice, because while the bar is there it only scrolls 1mm for me - it essentially doesn't do anything. Twinge is right that you should get rid of that if you can, but those 'scrollbars that don't really scroll' are common enough on websites at the moment that I often don't even notice them.

The biggest thing I'll add a "me too!" onto is the filesize. Each shirt thumbnail is about 20k - that's certainly not much individually, but when you have so many of them it does add up. There's not a lot to the thumbnails, so you should be able to get the filesize down some more.

I think it would be worth considering creating a standard left box for your company information (i.e. faq, privacy statement, etc.). At the moment you have things spread all over the page, and I found it relatively difficult to find the FAQ.

When I did find it, I was frustrated that because of the way it's coded I couldn't right click on it - I like to browse tabbed, so I wanted to open it in a new tab so that the main page could remain open. When I did load it, I was surprised to see 1) Only four questions, 2) That they weren't displayed. Clicking on a question to read makes the whole page load again. It's all much too slow and involved. The FAQ is one of the most important pages on a commerce site - it's where a lot of customer confidence is built, and a lot of decisions made. You also haven't run the FAQ through a spellchecker.

When you click on a link in a menu it should take you to that page - clicking on the "Contact & FAQ" page brings you to the FAQ page, you have to click again to get to the contact page.

Personally I don't like the futuristic silver look, but I'm not your target audience so take that with a grain of salt.

I do like the fact that your product information fits on one screen (sure there is a scrollbar in both directions, but I don't actually need to move them to see everything).

I didn't see a sizing chart.

I don't think the "Top" / "Print" buttons are at all needed. They sometimes clutter the page, and they frequently don't line up against each other properly.

I do like your company logo with the woman staring, though you do need to clean up the "diddy shade" text (it could afford to be sharper).

I think you have a consistent product that provides a clear company focus, with the one exception of the "stealth geek" shirt. It's your only text shirt, and it doesn't seem to mesh with the other ideas. It's obviously something you like and it's not a huge problem or anything, but it's the one thing that stands out in a "one of these things is not like the others, one of these things just doesn't belong" kind of way.

Overall I'd say the site is decent, but there are some things that need changing.


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## angryred (Jul 12, 2005)

Hey Solmu and Twinge - I think these are all valid points so thanks. This site is an experiment with a DNN store (see www.dotnetnuke.com if you want to have a look at it) which is very modular and we've not got it right yet. I asked for an appraisal because I've been staring at this too long and just becuase I know how to navigate it doesn't mean that anyone else does. 

I agree with the FAQ bit, I haven't completed that yet. As for 'you've alienated people on alternative browsers, people using 800x600 resolution, and people on dialup' - err I'm using mozilla firefox beta 1 and it seems ok at 1024*768 and I don't get the scrollabr appearing so I'm going to check that out. If you don't mind having a look at round two when its ready, I'd be happy (masochistic?) enough to submit to another barrage but I'm working from the assumption that all criticism is constructive. 

off to cry in a corner now,


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## monkeylantern (Oct 16, 2005)

angryred - don't you dare cry...that was one of the most positive pair of reviews I've seen here. This forum can be harsh. But it's nearly always true. And therefore useful.


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## angryred (Jul 12, 2005)

Hey I'm not disagreeing - this forum is brilliant for decent feedback. Beats your mates saying 'great' without really considering it. Am in my happy place.


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## Rodney (Nov 3, 2004)

Seeing as how this thread is starting to become a "request for critique" thread and has veered way off the original topic, I'll zip it up for the moment.

I would suggest that new requests for website critiques be posted in the E-Commerce Site Design forum:
http://www.t-shirtforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=9

Each request should have its own thead (so it gets the attention it deserves).


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