# Sticky  Before you get into DTG, things you need to know



## binki

DTG printing is the most exciting thing to happen to the garment industry since automatic screen machines and dyesub. There are, however, things you need to know.

1) the ink has a shelf life. the longer it sits around the bigger the chance you will have bad ink.

2) production times are nowhere near screen printing. while you can print short runs profitably, longer runs need much better control of costs to be competitive.

3) printing a single shirt can take 4 minutes or more from start to finish.

3) this is a complicated piece of equipment with close tolerances. not paying attention to that fact will yield nothing but frustration.

4) these machines like to run. the more you run it the happier it will be. the less you run it or the longer it just sits around the more chance you will have for problems like head clogs. 

5) the ink is expensive.

6) pressing the shirts after printing adds to the time to print, consider a tunnel dryer like screen printers use. 

7) color matching is a big issue. make sure you understand how colors work on a pc, how that are translated in the rip, and how your machine treats them. 

8) unlike screen printing or embroidery, bitmaps (raster images) are your friend. imo this is one huge advantage over other forms of decorating. 

did i miss anything


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## fdsales

The cost to print a shirt remains fairly constant, whether you print 1 or 1,000 of the same design, so you really can't offer much of a quantity discount on larger orders...possibility consider using traditional screen-printing for big orders.
Make sure you get the correct price for your work to cover your ROI (return on investment). 
Also most models need to be in a climate controlled environment.
Also need a separate area for pretreatment, and if not done correctly, can cause print quality issues.
Need to have a separate, dedicated electric circuit.
Most all the models using white ink will need DAILY maintenance; if not done correctly you'll have head clogs & other print issues.
Don't be the first to purchase the "new" model; wait a bit & see how this model works out.
Understand that this industry is changing rapidly; the machine model you purchase today will probably be out of production within 1-2 years, and parts availability may become an issue.
Most models have the ability to print other items, such as coasters, mouse pads, etc.
DTG in NOT a replacement for traditional screen printing.
Take the time to read thru the threads on this forum; there's lot's of really good info on most of the popular mfgs, both good & bad; go to a show & see them in action before making a purchase.
I'm sure there's more......


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## vctradingcubao

Thanks, Fred and Brian. I need all the infos I can get before I take the DTG plunge. What printers are you using, and do you do black shirts?


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## abmcdan

There seems to be a few new people on the board lately so I thought it was worth bringing this topic back to the top.

Andy


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## Don-ColDesi

Pretty sage wisdom when you look back 15 months! I'd like to add another thing or two:

1. You can buy the best direct to garment printer on the market and if you don't have a plan to keep it busy, it won't make you any money and will sit idle, causing atrophy issues

2. Consider all aspects of owning a direct to garment printer before buying one - cost of supplies, cost of consumable parts (printheads, capping stations, dampers, cartridges etc), warranty information as well as training options and costs. 

3. Set realistic pricing for your output - don't undercharge in order to start your business up, it is a tough reputation to overcome!


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## cavedave

I would like to add,

Research the dealer / manufacture you buy the machine from, these machines are all high maintance compared with most other inkjets and good support from the manufacture / dealer can be worth a fortune and defintly worth paying a little extra for in the long run.
Check the details of the warrenty (on site vs return to manufacture) (3 months vs 12 months) and what extended warrently will cost once the initial warrenty expires.

I never buy warrenty on desktop printers or PC's, but if I was buying a DTG machine I would certainly want it.

Best regards

-David


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## zoom_monster

abmcdan said:


> There seems to be a few new people on the board lately so I thought it was worth bringing this topic back to the top.
> 
> Andy


Thanks Andy, Perhaps Rodney should put this in the "highlighted threads" area. The wisdom here is a "must see" for any newbie. We still see alot of people make the same mistakes.


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## abmcdan

You should also get some training in basic artwork stuff. Adobe Photoshop is a good software that will be compatible with most any files you will receive. There are people here that also use Corel.

Things you should know about artwork (Off the top of my head, chime in if I'm incorrect or left something out):

1.) DPI - Most importantly know that graphics off of the internet are usually 72 dpi and typically you need a 150 dpi image or better for the highest print quality. Just because it looks nice on screen doesn't mean it will print nice. Garbage In = Garbage Out

2.) Know the difference between the common file types: .jpg, .gif, .psd, .png, .eps

3.) Basic image manipulation: Since what is shown on screen might be different than the printed image you may need to change the image to get the correct output. Lighten and Darken, etc.. 

It would be great if someone that has a DTG printer but started out with very limited computer skills and new to the printing industry would give us a list of what they found difficult or had to learn.

Andy


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## Fun-Ts

I think I can help in that department Andy.
I know a lot about the workings of a computer, even built one from scratch once. But graphics, didn’t know squat.  I have learned much about graphics via the net and now consider myself a fairly good graphics manipulator (no way calling myself an artist).
DTG printers in general, the more knowledge you have before buying, the better off you’ll be. They can be your best friend when they work right but when things go wrong (and they will) it makes you yearn for a gallon of gas and a match. 
I had to learn EVERYTHING about this industry, knowing zip when I started looking. Boards like this one are great as they give you other brains to pick. I have learned a lot since reading this board, too bad I found it after I purchased a printer. There is always something new to learn, whether it’s graphic design or picking up a tip from someone else. Probably the most important piece of advice I would give anyone who wants to enter this industry is *do your homework*!


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## princessracer

Alright.. keep the tips coming..


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## Don-ColDesi

A thing that I would add to the list that wasn't was much of an issue 15 months ago as it appears to be now. The marketplace for used machines had grown significantly in the past 12 months (in part due to the economy - some businesses going under and others trying to save a dime). If you have not used a direct to garment printer before (or have good experience with other specialty printers like large format eco-sol printers) - the savings you realize in the purchse of a used machine from an individual may not be worht the hassles you will experience after the fact. I would suggest that, if buying a used machine from an individual, that you do so only if you are able to see the unit in operation OR have gotten such a good deal that the potential expenses you may incur won't make it a bad deal.


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## mk162

good call Don, some of these machines are probably being unloaded too because they aren't working. Insist on seeing it in production, not just cleaned and ready to go. You could be buying a boat anchor. I would say paperweight, but who uses those anymore?


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## Don-ColDesi

> You could be buying a boat anchor. I would say paperweight, but who uses those anymore?


Who can afford a boat anymore?


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## MisTeeTiny

Wow! Thanks for re-posting this! I am one of those newbies and was looking into DTG but I figured I should start out with Plastisols first! Trying to bring my cost down from screen printing since I don't move my inventory very fast, plus my wholesale profit margin is really tight.


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## BSB

You say do your homework...Where do you look for that homework? The more I read the more confused I get. I do small jobs and want to trade my screen print machine in for a DTG printer so I can offer more options and 1 ups but I am confused on which one to buy.


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## zoom_monster

BSB said:


> You say do your homework...Where do you look for that homework? The more I read the more confused I get. I do small jobs and want to trade my screen print machine in for a DTG printer so I can offer more options and 1 ups but I am confused on which one to buy.


 BSB, If you're here, your doing part of your homework. if you know the difference between 4 color process and spot color, you know a lot more than many people getting into this. DTG is great for short runs, less screens, less waste.... etc. but if you are a small opperation and the reason you are not moving mechandise is price, DTG may not make things better. The niche is a little different that the typical screener doing athletic type stuff. Cotton/high cotton blends is the norm. You can pop in web art and make this work without separations, but if you have photoshop skills, you can really do yourself some good. Just like screenprinting the curve for learning is there and you will need to really understand how the process works to exploit the subtlties. Ask your self:
1)who are your customers?
2)what type of artwork do they need me to do? (Size, color, placement)
3) what prices will they buy at? 

If you have examples of what(art, colors) you hope to do, someone here can give you some real world feedback on wether it's practical or a pipe dream, or get you started on more questions to ask. At that point, you can decide what machine to buy, or if you even want to go this way.

Ian


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## BSB

Thanks for the info..I think my prices are fine. My thought in this is I have more small job customers then large and they don't always want as many shirts but because of screen charges they get more shirts so they don't have to pay the screen charge and they do one color because of price. I want to be able to offer, you can get as many as you want plus many colors for a lower cost..Also there is a few potential customers that are going elsewhere for shirts because they are getting pictures of the things on shirts that I can't offer at this time but could with a DTG. Plus alot of 1 ups that I could make money on.I work with corel draw and I learn something new on it all the time. I am in know means a graphic artist by I do like learning as much as I can and I love doing what I do but want to offer so much more which I am thinking I can do with a DTG.


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## Mistewoods

You will need a suitable work environment for a direct to garment printer: 
Temps between 68F and 80F are preferred for the inks to flow properly.
Humidity above 50% will assist proper ink flow and reduce clogging dramatically. 
Mount an inexpensive hygrometer near the printer to measure humidity and temp.
Lint, dust , etc. in the air are attracted to the ink and can cause clogging- the cleaner room the better.
Locate heat press far enough from the printer to avoid drastic temp changes for the printer.

I think a bulk ink system is a very good choice economically, but it may require a little more maintenance, so keep that in mind when choosing a printer.

Direct to garment has less caustic chemicals and less messy cleanup than some decorating methods making it ideal for a home business ( but it needs to be used and maintained daily)

If you don't need white ink it is an awesome decorating method in my opinion for short runs or single prints. If you do, it is still pretty good but offers much more opportunity for frustration.


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## jbab

I cannot tell you how much I appreciate this information. I am trying to educate myself with the DTG industry and this has been the single most helpful post out of a lot of different websites and forums. I am looking at doing a startup and like to know all of the things the company's don't tell you. To them, it is as easy as 1,2,3. Thankfully, I have been around a little and know better.
I am looking at a small startup that I can grow slowly and effectively. I am trying to write a good business plan, but I am having a little trouble finding realistic numbers to analyze my true financial potential. I know that it won't be easy and I know that I will have troubles, but I also know that it is possible.
Again, thanks for all of your information. Please keep it coming as I am very new, like a lot of folks out there.
Thanks,
Jesse


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## CoorsDTG

One thing that I wanted to really stress in this old forum is how important it is to concentrate on selling your shirts and service. Most of the talk on this website (at least the direct-to-garment area) is about which printer does what the best. Regardless of which printer you decide to buy, you need need NEED to spend some time proactively marketing your business. No garment printer, regardless of price or functionality, is a magic wand. Simply buying one is not going to bring business to your doorstep unless you already have a list of current clients that you can offer the new service to.


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## equipmentzone

Here is some general information on starting up a direct to garment business - 

What do I need to start out?:

Hardware: First things first: you need a direct to garment printer. Next, you need a computer. You also need a heat press. These components are the basics of any direct to garment business.

Software: Adobe Photoshop is more or less an essential tool in the graphic design world today. Not only will it allow you to create your own art, it will allow you to fix your customer's artwork as well. Don't worry, you don't need to spend a lot to get Photoshop CS 4, the latest and greatest version. Version CS 2 offers a great balance of value and features. Plus, it's much cheaper than CS 4 and compatible with Windows Vista.

Knowledge: Now may be the time to invest in a how-to book about running your own business, or to take a course at a community college.

If you know how to run a business already, the other piece of knowledge you need is how to work with graphics. Remember that old term, photo-ready art? That denotes artwork that's optimized to the proper size and quality and ready to print. It's the rare customer that will bring you photo-ready art, so it's up to you to prepare the customer's artwork for printing.

Usually, you will need computer graphics knowledge to optimize or fix a customer's artwork.

If you aren't proficient with Photoshop or another graphics program already, this might be the time to learn. But the easiest route might be hiring an experienced graphic designer, a local college student, or finding a freelance designer at a website like Elance.com to help set up your artwork.

Once you have a finished and optimized piece of artwork, printing out a design on a direct to garment printer is easy.


Now what do I do?:

It's time to purchase your hardware. Take your time researching who to purchase your machine from and which machine to purchase. How long is the machine under warranty? How easy is it to get support? Remember, this is the company that you're going to be calling for support in the future and the machine that you'll be using day in and day out.

How easy is it to use the RIP software that comes with the machine? That's the essential piece of software that translates between the computer and the printer. The easier the software and the printer are to use, the easier it will be to have employees do the printing in the future.

Getting a machine with one or two timesaving features or a fast print speed can make a big difference over time. You'll be printing thousands of shirts with this machine, so make sure it's robust and reliable.

Different direct to garment printers have different resolutions. Some can only print 600x600 dpi, providing less detail than printers which can print up to 1440x1440 dpi.

Some direct to garment printers can only print on white or light shirts. In some areas, dark shirts are preferred much more than light shirts, in which case you want to purchase a printer that has white ink to print on dark shirts.

Once you've purchased your printer, you need to learn how to use and maintain it. If you don't know how to print, you won't be able to make a profit. 


What can I print?:

You can print virtually anything you can see on the computer screen. That includes photographs, drawings, vector graphics, and bitmap graphics.

Remember that you may need computer graphics knowledge to tweak the colors or quality of the graphic that you want to print.



What can I print on?:

Your most popular item will likely be t-shirts. 100% cotton shirts will work best, though with today's advanced ink formulations you can print on some polyester and 50/50 garments.

We've found that Hanes Tagless shirts print very well. These can be found for a reasonable price, about $2 per shirt. More expensive shirts like American Apparel, geared for upscale markets, generally work well too. You will be able to see a major difference in print quality between a cheap shirt and a quality shirt.

Don't forget that you can print on many other goods, like sweatshirts, towels, and even painter's canvas. Mouse pads will print well. You can even make a direct to garment print, then embroider on top of it.



Where can I buy shirts and other printables?:

Purchase shirts and other printables from a national distributor like Bodek and Rhodes or Alpha Shirt Supply. Not only will these distributors have better pricing and availability, their shirts will also be free of the chemicals you can find on some blank department store shirts. However, you will usually have to purchase at least a case at a time. A case contains 72 shirts.



What should I print on?:

Whatever you can print profitably. While you're in the business of printing great looking apparel, you're also in the business of making money. Unless you see an unprofitable job bringing you profitable business in the future, you may need to just say no.



How much should I sell my shirts and other products for?:

Putting a selling price on your products can be difficult. Look at what shirts sell for at other local retailers, including department stores. Generally, you'll want to charge between $12-$30 for light shirts, and $15-$40 for dark shirts. Depending on your geographic area or target demographic, you may charge more or less.

Because you're direct to garment printing and not screen printing or heat pressing, you can charge more than average. That's because you're able to print shirts with sharp detail, with thousands of colors, and with personalized designs. That's something that other processes can't match.

Charge more for personalizing designs and less for stock art. Charge more for larger designs, because they take more time and use more ink. Charge less for orders in quantity, but only if there is little or no personalization involved.



More profit-making tips:

Find a screen printer that you can trust. You may be able to find someone local, or you can look online. Employ them as a contract printer. That means that, whenever a customer comes in with a job that isn't suitable for direct to garment printing, you can contract out that job to the screen printer. You won't make nearly as much profit, but you'll keep the customer and keep the customer satisfied.

If you're really lucky, the screen printer will employ you as a contract printer for sampling or for its small jobs.

You'll also want to purchase a set of heat pressable numbers and letters. Sometimes, all a school or sports team wants is some simple numbers on t-shirts or team jerseys. It's simpler to heat press these than to print them with a direct to garment printer.

When you deliver these simple shirts, include a sample of what you can do with your direct to garment printer. For example, print a picture on a shirt and tell the coach that you can print the team's photo on t-shirts or even print individual pictures of the players on shirts for their parents to wear. This could turn into a nice marketing opportunity and, since the team changes every year, a chance for regular business.


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## binki

It has been 2 years since I wrote this and we have spent an enormous amount of time and money with this printer, much more so than we have with a comparable investment of embroidery, and I have to say that there are not a lot of good things I can say about dtg printing. 

First off, the initial purchase price is just the entry into the product. Plan on double that investment to get a real production going. 

Second, we can do about 4 shirts an hour on this thing if we are doing full front and back on whites and less than that with the white ink on 'darks'. And by darks I mean anything not white. 

The pricing on anything over one-offs and very short runs does not make up for the amount of work you have to put into these things. 

We also ripped the entire thing apart and re-did the ink delivery with the equipment zone ink delivery system and that made things a lot better but not perfect. Good job for ez to get that right but $400 is a little much for some plastic bottles, tubes and $20 in ink carts. 

The ink is still really expensive and the white ink is prohibitively expensive. 

Add to that the pre treatment and unless you are selling $20 shirts it isn't worth the cost of admission. 

Now for light garments there is a new pre treatment for them as well and it is $100 a gallon. It does make a big difference in the quality of the prints but unless you are just printing on whites you will not be satisfied. Even on light colored garments if you want your colors to look good you need white ink. 

Here are things that can and do go wrong:

1) Ink clogging in the lines. The original ink delivery system sucked. We have eliminated that problem.

2) White ink viscosity. You need to baby this stuff like it was nitro. If you don't it will blow up in your face. 

3) You don't know what you will get until you print one. Well, if you are doing a one-off then guess what, you have to print it at least twice to find out. 

4) You don't know what it will cost until you print one. Well, even worse, with our software we found out that the price shown per print didn't change if we printed one pass or 2 passes. Huh? 

5) You will be blamed by the vendor for not maintaining your machine when it stops working even you didn't know about the maintenance because it wasn't in the training or the documentation you got with the machine. Oh wait, the documentation wasn't complete or accurate or helpful at all. And by the way, the training was done from hand written notes on a yellow legal pad. And the 1 day training was only half a day. 

6) Print heads are considered consumables. What? $300 or more for a consumable every 6 months? Better figure that into your price. 

7) No training on how the thing really works so you can fix problems. You better know how to change the following:
a) print head
b) ribbon cable
c) capping station
d) print head carriage

If you don't plan on being down for a week while you wait. 

8) The RIP software license is NOT transferable if you sell the machine! 


Now on to what is good about this product. 

1) You can do a single shirt and charge $20 and get it. $40 is s stretch. I don't know of any market around here where I can get $40 for a dtg printed dark shirt. After all, I am not selling Ed Hardy shirts!

2) You can print on canvas and make a lot more for less work and not have to worry about washability. We started doing canvas photo prints and can charge $40 for those and it is really less work than doing shirts and the results are good enough to get you by without all the hassles of shirts. 

3) Doing t-shirts brings in other business such as uniforms, embroidery, rhinestones, vinyl and so on. 

Finally we have to look at the bottom line. We need to cover the monthly nut and t shirts are not where it is at with dtg at this point. For production runs we make next to nothing on these things. We keep doing it because we bring in other business as a result. 

One thing for sure, we will get into screen printing and do that before we commit to any more dtg equipment. Other than photo printing and other one off types of things it just doesn't compute to spend as much or more than what we would for a screen print setup to get such frustrations.

The dtg market will continue to make innovations and push the right buttons here and there but when you look at getting into this market plan on double your investment or more to make this work. If we had known this from the beginning we would have put $30K into a large format dyesub setup or solvent print setup and not done tshirts at all. 

My adviCe is to stay away from the table top machines and look a little higher end if you really want to do this. You need something that can demonstrate *before the sale* a real production rate that can sustain itself before you plunk down good money. *AND GET YOUR TRAINING COMMITMENT IN WRITING AHEAD OF TIME*.


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## IYFGraphics

binki said:


> It has been 2 years since I wrote this and we have spent an enormous amount of time and money with this printer, much more so than we have with a comparable investment of embroidery, and I have to say that there are not a lot of good things I can say about dtg printing.
> 
> Second, we can do about 4 shirts an hour on this thing if we are doing full front and back on whites and less than that with the white ink on 'darks'. And by darks I mean anything not white.


I'd be curious to know which DTG printer you own? I can see where it would never be profitable if you can only produce 4 white shirts a hour and less with darks as you stated.


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## binki

IYFGraphics said:


> I'd be curious to know which DTG printer you own? I can see where it would never be profitable if you can only produce 4 white shirts a hour and less with darks as you stated.


dtg kiosk ii


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## bornover

I have had pretty much the exactly same experience that binki has had with his Kiosk II with my Fast T-Jet 2 (which is like the original Kiosk). I know the new machines print faster, but the cost of the ink is still a huge factor, and all the touches you have to do to the garment (like: press before pretreament, pretreament, dry pretreatment, print 4 to 5 min., cure 3 min.) make per piece production costs high. I shut mine down for three main reasons. First I could not charge what I needed to charge and keep customers happy with their per piece costs. Second, because the per piece cost was perceived as too high by my customers, I could not get the volume I needed to keep the machine printing enough of the time to have it make a profit. And thirdly, no matter how I controlled the environment, I had huge white ink clogging problems.

I have no real market for white garments, I need to print an underbase on 90% of my garment product. I built a reputation for high color large digitally painted images so my print needs require the full printing size capability of the T-Jet 2 at about a 75 to 80% ink coverage of the print area. The print mode I use is Photo 1440 underbase, 720 color high speed mode. I still have 4 to 5 minuet printing times. This consumes a lot of ink and a lot of time which makes for an expensive garment when competing against screen printing. 

I have been waiting for improvements and gains in the ink technology to possibly fire the machine back up and try again to make DTG services a profitable part in my over all product and service offering. Some new inks look promising and BelQuette's degassed bagged ink system looks interesting as well. 

The good thing about my DTG is that it got me started in this industry, and in the beginning while I was running it often and fulfilling orders I was able to build a customer base. What I had to do to keep those customers and continue to grow was to change and offer screen printed product to my customers instead of DTG printed product. I needed to be able to offer a better per piece price and know the machine would likely not be a factor in causing delays in getting orders out.

I possibly see a place and a market for DTG printing in my company and its higher per piece prices, but it would only work if I can eliminate the white ink clogging problems I had while diligently controlling the environment (dust, temp, humidity). Even though I did not have a DTG print job every day, I would print a sample, and as mentioned, controlled the environment and the thing still had white ink clogging problems.

I know others have a business model that makes good profit with reliable DTG printing and I commend them for their success. I have yet to make it work for my company but I have not completely given up on this technology. I need to work out the combination that works for my company.


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## cuush.com

binki said:


> One thing for sure, we will get into screen printing and do that before we commit to any more dtg equipment. Other than photo printing and other one off types of things it just doesn't compute to spend as much or more than what we would for a screen print setup to get such frustrations.


If you're screen printing anything but one color designs... 
then this process has many similar issues you must deal with.

White ink is a nightmare... 

Screen coating, drying, burning, washing, drying and taping, is very time consuming unless you have seriously large (expensive) equipment... 
and even then, it takes 20 minutes per screen... multiply that by 6 colors, and you're looking at two hours setup (that's with premium coating/drying equipment AND if the design washes out properly so you don't need to re-do the screen).

Now you get to start aligning the screens registration marks...
then loading the press with shirts, printing (the shortest part of the entire process), unloading, curing... 
and finally, folding and packaging.

Alright, after all that, you've just printed one full color design...
now you get to clean everything up, let it dry, and start working on that second shirt design.

Screen printing really isn't much better, it's got it's own set of issues... 
all of which can be overcome with lots of money for the proper equipment (to shorten the setup time)... 
and ultimately, time invested in research and hands-on experience.

Like anything in the printing industry, it's expensive and not easy... 
which is exactly why there's an "industry" for it.

I'm reading this thread because I'm researching DTG printers (again)... 
your post is very insightful (particularly because you came back and followed up a couple years later), thanks for that... 
I had hoped the DTG process had evolved further in this period of time, but it seems it hasn't.

There's never an easy way...


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## Printzilla

The process has gotten much better, but it is just like everything else, the better, faster equipment costs more. Also, like everything else, you have to know the machines strengths and weaknesses, and market it accordingly.


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## cuush.com

Printzilla said:


> The process has gotten much better, but it is just like everything else, the better, faster equipment costs more. Also, like everything else, you have to know the machines strengths and weaknesses, and market it accordingly.


Of course, I didn't mean to imply that DTG evolution was stagnant... 
just that it's still not ideal... very expensive, for a lot work.

IMHO, the idea of DTG was to easily print full color shirts... 
but by reading the various DTG forums over the years, it really doesn't seem like it's doing that yet.

Being a retailer, I was hoping to print full color / made-to-order shirts, so we could customize the shirt colors... 
but the DTG buy-in + learning curve (and potential future downtime)... really dampers the option.

Particularly the idea that a DTG machine breaks very easily, almost by itself it seems!!
It's like buying a Mercedes that you _know_ won't start if you don't drive it one day...


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## binki

here is the support part. the guy that was supposed to demo the brother 541 had so many excuses as to why he couldn't make appointments we gave up on him. we had 2 appointments made and broken for simple but stupid reasons so we felt support would not be there. so we purchase local only to find out everything runs on central time with our vendor so we are still screwed unless we support ourselves which we pretty much do now.

we made the decision today today to add screen printing in house to do the best process for the job and offer a competitive price on it. what the h3ll, we have learned embroidery, dtg, vinyl, sublimation and whatever else to stay in this biz and we are currently bidding on enough jobs to triple our monthly gross so we really need to do this and offer the best product for the job.


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## cuush.com

binki said:


> the guy that was supposed to demo the brother 541 had so many excuses as to why he couldn't make appointments we gave up on him.


See now, that's just plain wrong... at least Mercedes is there in an Armani suit to sell you the car (despite it's perceived quality)... 
but if they can't be bothered to show up for the pre-sale, their company (Brother, or whoever the reseller was) has some serious issues beyond the product itself... you probably saved yourself *even more* headache by NOT dealing with them.

It's just a shame, DTG is a very innovative idea... so close, yet so far.

Although, if DTG actually becomes effortless... 
everyone will be buying them to print their own shirts... 
and the print industry won't be $pecialized anymore.

So in a way, it's simply another custom printing process that requires education and skill... 
just like all the other methods.

In that light, I suppose it has it's place... 
it's still a tease tho!


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## jayarrsteiner

It's official. I've been scared off of buying a DTG printer. *backs away from computer slowly*


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## cuush.com

jayarrsteiner said:


> It's official. I've been scared off of buying a DTG printer. *backs away from computer slowly*


Hehe, well... at least if you want to print on darks...
I think the majority of problems stem from using White ink.

But then again, that's generally an issue with all the printing methods...
and to think, there's still millions of people out there that think printing is an easy way to make money. LOL!


----------



## Stitch-Up

Reading this thread, I think I would have been put off too!

I've been watching the DTG printer market for several years. Several years ago, probably more recently too, white ink problems were a nightmare. However, since the developments in inks and ink delivery systems, DTG printers have come a long way.

Two months ago i purchased my first DTG printer, a Neoflex. Yes, the learning curve is steep but I knew this would be the case. I've come a long way in 2 months, I've learned a lot and now I'm able to produce some good printed shirts both black & white. I still have a long way to go but I'm really enjoying it.

Since owning my printer I've not had any issues with white ink clogging or even a bad nozzle check  I carry out daily maintenace - it's no hardship! It's early days but I'm glad I took the plunge.


----------



## binki

let me put this into perspective. i have purchased over $100,000 in equipment and do dyesub, dtg, embroidery, promo products and have the ballstars system. i have a retail store and do all kinds of crazy jobs. 

the single most profitable investment in equipment is a $400 24" vinyl cutter. we do about 25 yards a week in apparel vinyl and just ordered 150 yards to complete our orders for the rest of this month. we compete with screen printing with this thing and the dtg printer just sits there. we have NEVER had a vinyl job come back because of quality and i cannot say that for dtg.

if you can make a choice, select, in order: vinyl cutter, embroidery, screen printer, everything else. 

that said, i like dtg and we have had some success with it but for the time involved and the headaches with it, maybe it just isn't time. i have heard a lot of good things about brother but time will tell with these things.


----------



## cuush.com

binki said:


> the single most profitable investment in equipment is a $400 24" vinyl cutter. we do about 25 yards a week in apparel vinyl and just ordered 150 yards to complete our orders for the rest of this month. we compete with screen printing with this thing...


Unfortunately, this method doesn't fly in the retail market... I only wish it did... 
the feel of plastic layers on a t-shirt just doesn't impress, it's too much like stickers.

Which is great for sports teams and pizza places, but try selling custom art shirts online using vinyl... 
I guarantee your eBay ratings will plummet as people "out you" for not screenprinting.

It's too bad really, there's some interesting options (and benefits) in vinyl... 
but even heat transfers are frowned upon these days... the t-shirt fans are wise to the game... plastisol or bust!

Personally, I bought a really expensive t-shirt from the UK about 8 years ago... 
when it finally arrived, my heart sank as I felt the plastic layers. 

I didn't even know what vinyl was at the time, but I knew it wasn't what I was expecting... 
I felt burned, and at that moment, all the vinyl dealers instantly lost a customer for life 
(and they probably don't even realize it, since this is the first time I've ever spoken about it).

I realize, it's a totally different story for a print shop... but in retail, it's a no-no... 
my point, be careful you're not losing repeat customers by using cheaper methods of printing.

Not everyone complains, most just won't come back.


----------



## binki

cuush.com said:


> Unfortunately, this method doesn't fly in the retail market... I only wish it did...
> the feel of plastic layers on a t-shirt just doesn't impress, it's too much like stickers.


our customers hate screen printing and love vinyl. we have a retail storefront. 



cuush.com said:


> Which is great for sports teams


that is where the money is. there is very little profit in doing 100 tshirts but 100 jerseys is golden. 



cuush.com said:


> I guarantee your eBay ratings will plummet as people "out you" for not screenprinting.


we dont sell on ebay 



cuush.com said:


> Personally, I bought a really expensive t-shirt from the UK about 8 years ago...
> when it finally arrived, my heart sank as I felt the plastic layers.


we have samples of all processes in the shop so the customers can touch and feel them. if they want screen printing we will do it. 

our average customer who comes in for printing starts out with 'i don't want that plastic feel of screen printing'. when we show them apparel vinyl it is an instant sale. 

i guess it is just preference. 

we dont sell on ebay
we dont sell mail order
all of our customers are walk in
we specialize in team uniforms which is more profitable than just doing t-shirts. 
we do a lot of one offs at $15-$25 each
we have a number of repeat customers for vinyl

i guess we are different than most here. we dont have a tshirt line, we dont sell online, we do have a brick and mortar store and work in it 6 days a week


----------



## ROYAL SAVAGE

I don't think there is more to say than has already been said. 

However, my words of wisdom on the subject are simple. If you are a really good screen printer you have a chance at being a really good DTG printer. If you are a bad screen printer you will be a _really bad_ DTG printer. 

DTG is a thinking mans game. Look around your shop. If your gear is dirty and not maintained PLEASE do not by DTG equipment you will be sorry you did.


----------



## Printzilla

How about if your neither?


----------



## ROYAL SAVAGE

You'd better do some research! It's a larger learning curve for non printers


----------



## kevrokr

I agree with the cleanliness statement, but as for being a good screen printer versus a good digital printer, they're two different animals.


----------



## ROYAL SAVAGE

Not entirely. I have been printing for 23 years. My experience in four color process printing is what has made the difference in our approach to DTG. We do not view DTG as press the button and go. Our knowledge of true process color seperations for darks in screen printing cut the learning curve.

But what I was actually saying was - a good printer is someone that really cares about the product that leaves the shop. So if you are a good screen printer you probably will be a good DTG printer. If you are a bad screen printer - someone who doesn't care about delivering a great product - your DTG will suck too. DTG is not an easier softer way to success if you don't care.


----------



## Mabuzi

The main limitation for me is that at 51 units you loose all economies of scale and cannot offer 1000 units at bigger discounts.
The obvious issue is down time. My direct competitors spend more time delaying or cancelling jobs as their Kornits choke...


----------



## ROYAL SAVAGE

maybe your competitors are bad DTG printers like the ones complaining in all of the other DTG forums!!
THats good for you!


----------



## vctradingcubao

ROYAL SAVAGE said:


> My experience in four color process printing is what has made the difference in our approach to DTG. We do not view DTG as press the button and go. Our knowledge of true process color seperations for darks in screen printing cut the learning curve.


Thanks Kevin @ROYAL SAVAGE. Care to share some specifics?


----------



## ROYAL SAVAGE

vctradingcubao said:


> Thanks Kevin @ROYAL SAVAGE. Care to share some specifics?


Sure. Using basic seperation knowledge leads to better prints. We create hundreds of pieces of art per year that are painted in Photoshop. Every file is prepped in the exact same way as a screen printing sep would be. WE have some proprietary actions we use but the two mediums require exactly the same approach. Remember ink is ink the only difference is the delivery method. Are you a screen printer by trade like I am?


----------



## JeridHill

ROYAL SAVAGE said:


> Not entirely. I have been printing for 23 years. My experience in four color process printing is what has made the difference in our approach to DTG. We do not view DTG as press the button and go. Our knowledge of true process color seperations for darks in screen printing cut the learning curve.
> 
> But what I was actually saying was - a good printer is someone that really cares about the product that leaves the shop. So if you are a good screen printer you probably will be a good DTG printer. If you are a bad screen printer - someone who doesn't care about delivering a great product - your DTG will suck too. DTG is not an easier softer way to success if you don't care.


I agree with this. I've seen some really bad screen prints and dtg prints and the printers think they are really good.

It's always puzzled me as to what people think quality is and isn't.


----------



## vctradingcubao

ROYAL SAVAGE said:


> Are you a screen printer by trade like I am?


unfortunately, I'm not. We are an embroidery shop, using laser and vinyl transfers, and added a Mimaki DTG with discharge fluid and now waiting for our Kornit 932-6.

Do you mean to say, you do file preparation/color separation exactly the same as you do them for screen printing? Kinda still use half-tones and stuffs even though you are to print them in your Kornit?


----------



## ROYAL SAVAGE

vctradingcubao said:


> unfortunately, I'm not. We are an embroidery shop, using laser and vinyl transfers, and added a Mimaki DTG with discharge fluid and now waiting for our Kornit 932-6.
> 
> Do you mean to say, you do file preparation/color separation exactly the same as you do them for screen printing? Kinda still use half-tones and stuffs even though you are to print them in your Kornit?


Halftones are a function of output to convert continuous tone to a printable form for screen printing or offset exposures. DTG prints continous tone which means there is no interuption by halftone dots. However some of our special effect look like halftones. THere is in our opinion viable reasons for utilizing our screen experience in DTG


----------



## Mabuzi

I am not a DTG naysayer.

2 things: Yes I do agree on the user treating the machine like a tractor!
Personally I would love to have my own DTG but a partnership is the way I am proceeding. A Brother it is!!!

Cant wait as I have soo many designs ready to go!!!


----------



## ROYAL SAVAGE

Mabuzi said:


> I am not a DTG naysayer.
> 
> 2 things: Yes I do agree on the user treating the machine like a tractor!
> Personally I would love to have my own DTG but a partnership is the way I am proceeding. A Brother it is!!!
> 
> Cant wait as I have soo many designs ready to go!!!


Good Luck!


----------



## vctradingcubao

and I'm thinking, maybe one of those reasons is so that you could readily "switch" to screen printing if a certain design (initially printed in your Kornit) gets a volume order. Maybe making a design "DTG and Screen Printing compatible" is (at times) a great idea...


----------



## ROYAL SAVAGE

vctradingcubao said:


> and I'm thinking, maybe one of those reasons is so that you could readily "switch" to screen printing if a certain design (initially printed in your Kornit) gets a volume order. Maybe making a design "DTG and Screen Printing compatible" is (at times) a great idea...


So True my man


----------



## happycolt

I've been screen printing for a couple of years now, and have just recently been considering switching over to DTG.

The information in this thread has been invaluable and I want to thank everyone that's posted their experiences with DTG!! I've still got a lot more research to do, but this has given me great insight as to some of the complications with DTG.

Thanks again!!


----------



## ROYAL SAVAGE

happycolt said:


> I've been screen printing for a couple of years now, and have just recently been considering switching over to DTG.
> 
> The information in this thread has been invaluable and I want to thank everyone that's posted their experiences with DTG!! I've still got a lot more research to do, but this has given me great insight as to some of the complications with DTG.
> 
> Thanks again!!


Switching is not the answer. Learning how to marry the decorating disciplines you have is. I am a long term scree printer, embroidery and DTG printer. Having both mediums is very usefull.


----------



## happycolt

That's pretty much the conclusion that I've drawn. Though now I'm leaning more towards not even messing with DTG since it seems the only real benefit I would get out of it would be printing one off's

Which in that case, I'd rather just find a DTG printer to partner up with and work out a deal to have them print the small stuff for me.


----------



## Instacopy

Whew, these 4 pages had a lot of information!

What if a sheet fed printing co. wanted to get into DTG? I have the software and the graphics knowledge and have been dealing with ink, halftones, cont. tones, spot colors and solids for the last 17 years. I have a really good customer base for shirts and all have expressed interest if I proceed. I see paper-based reproduction as a dwindling market. I want to diversify by getting into a market that isn't going to be replaced so easily (Unless nudity gains wild popularity), but not replace our printing on paper (the equipment is well maintained and paid for).

DTG (Neoflex) is what we are considering, but this thread has made me question if this is the right move. 

For those of you offering both (DTG and Screen Printing), at what quantity does DTG become more expensive (Say at 1 or 2 Colors)?


----------



## spiderx1

Thats the thing 1-1000000 colors same for DTG. It does not care. Now white shirt vs dark colored. Dark requires white ink (pita). 
You really can only get about 8-10 shirts per hour on a dtg a few more if white shirt no white ink. 
I draw the line at 50 shirts for a simple 1-2 color. Full million color requiring 6 screens at 100-150


----------



## QuadGear

Instacopy said:


> For those of you offering both (DTG and Screen Printing), at what quantity does DTG become more expensive (Say at 1 or 2 Colors)?


We found that One-Color, light garments (no white) the break even is 30 shirts, dark colors is 5 shirts. 

On white, 2 colors - 150 shirts, 3 colors - 700 shirts.
On dark, 2 colors - 11 shirts, 3 colors - 19 shirts.

Clearly a big difference! By the way, this includes labor cost, since we have employees. The numbers are different if you don't want to calculate labor. 

We basically have a big excel sheet that tells us which is faster and which is cheaper, based on our values for production times, ink costs, etc. (Sometimes the deadline is a bigger factor than money!)


----------



## ROYAL SAVAGE

Instacopy said:


> Whew, these 4 pages had a lot of information!
> 
> What if a sheet fed printing co. wanted to get into DTG? I have the software and the graphics knowledge and have been dealing with ink, halftones, cont. tones, spot colors and solids for the last 17 years. I have a really good customer base for shirts and all have expressed interest if I proceed. I see paper-based reproduction as a dwindling market. I want to diversify by getting into a market that isn't going to be replaced so easily (Unless nudity gains wild popularity), but not replace our printing on paper (the equipment is well maintained and paid for).
> 
> DTG (Neoflex) is what we are considering, but this thread has made me question if this is the right move.
> 
> For those of you offering both (DTG and Screen Printing), at what quantity does DTG become more expensive (Say at 1 or 2 Colors)?


This is not complicated. The market you sell to will dictate your decision. I do a lot of licensed product. We also print volume. I am a 23 year veteran of screen printing. The two mediums are unrelated in many ways. We do not generally print spot color on DTG mahines. Our DTG machines are primarily for full color printing on black and dark goods with continuous tone. There is a learning curve to all of this. You have a slight edge as a printer but you don't know this substrate. I would encourage a ton of research and don't go cheap on DTG gear if you are a commercial printer. Here is some additional perspective for you. READ my latest article in Impressions Magazine.


----------



## Instacopy

Great information! That is exactly what I was looking for!

I have read a lot about this process requiring pretreatment with DTG, but the 2 machines that we have looked at in detail (Anajet and Neoflex) seem to mention that no pretreatment is required.

What exactly is pretreatment and why (or why not) would it be required?


----------



## JeridHill

spiderx1 said:


> You really can only get about 8-10 shirts per hour on a dtg a few more if white shirt no white ink.


It depends on the machine. I just did 35 shirts, the image was 8.5"x15" on dark and I averaged 15 per hour.


----------



## JeridHill

Instacopy said:


> Great information! That is exactly what I was looking for!
> 
> I have read a lot about this process requiring pretreatment with DTG, but the 2 machines that we have looked at in detail (Anajet and Neoflex) seem to mention that no pretreatment is required.
> 
> What exactly is pretreatment and why (or why not) would it be required?


Every DTG machine needs pretreatment for white ink. You have to spray the pretreatment on the garment in order for the white ink to sit on top of the fabric instead of absorbing into it. It also binds the white ink together so you have to use a pretreatment that is compatible with your ink.


----------



## QuadGear

Instacopy said:


> Great information! That is exactly what I was looking for!
> 
> I have read a lot about this process requiring pretreatment with DTG, but the 2 machines that we have looked at in detail (Anajet and Neoflex) seem to mention that no pretreatment is required.
> 
> What exactly is pretreatment and why (or why not) would it be required?


You will always have to pretreat if printing white ink on a shirt, which is required for darker shirts to have colors on them. (Kornits for example however, do print the pretreat themselves). Some machines that do not print white ink advertise that you can print on grey, yellow, light blue, light pink shirts, etc. We have tried this, but found the colors do not look vibrant, and printing a light white underbase significantly improves vividness. 

Some also pretreat white shirts with a special pretreat to get the colors to last through more washes. 

But, pretreating is a very important part of printing on shirts, and also the most challenging, which is why there are many printers out there who will only use white shirts to keep from this challenge. As a company having success with pretreating and using white ink, we have gathered referral business from those who don't use it.


----------



## Instacopy

Is pretreatment something that the printer lays down?

Or is it done by hand from a spray bottle, or?

Is it visible after the image is cured?


----------



## QuadGear

Is pretreatment something that the printer lays down?
*Not unless you buy a Kornit*

Or is it done by hand from a spray bottle, or?
*Usually done by one of two ways:
1) Paint sprayer by hand. You have to practice and test wash shirts to be sure you are laying down the right amount.
2) Pretreat machine, usually available for $4-5,000
Some people do use other methods such as a spray bottle or a paint roller, and some do the roller or brush in addition to a paint sprayer. *

Is it visible after the image is cured?
*The goal is invisible.... If it is visible, you did it wrong (either too much pretreat, or too much heat).*


----------



## DAGuide

Instacopy said:


> I have read a lot about this process requiring pretreatment with DTG, but the 2 machines that we have looked at in detail (Anajet and Neoflex) seem to mention that no pretreatment is required.


In my opinion, all the dtg manufacturers / distributors need to do a better job explain the steps in detail to pretreating before the purchase. This is why I recommend people interested in dtg printing to go a training class (even if you have to pay for it) before making a purchase. As mentioned by QuadGear, there are too many people that get sucked into the belief that they have to print white ink... but don't realize what the pretreating part (which is a major part) entails and all the other factors that go into white ink printing. Coming from someone that does plenty of trade shows, it is not always as easy as it looks when you get it back into your shop.

Just my opinion,

Mark


----------



## spiderx1

JeridHill said:


> It depends on the machine. I just did 35 shirts, the image was 8.5"x15" on dark and I averaged 15 per hour.


Thats smoking Jerid!! 3 min for white and cmyk. Loading and unloading on 1 machine. You doing 720x720 both underbase and color??
The Mod 1 is awesome. Thats the one I would love to have.


----------



## ROYAL SAVAGE

DAGuide said:


> In my opinion, all the dtg manufacturers / distributors need to do a better job explain the steps in detail to pretreating before the purchase. This is why I recommend people interested in dtg printing to go a training class (even if you have to pay for it) before making a purchase. As mentioned by QuadGear, there are too many people that get sucked into the belief that they have to print white ink... but don't realize what the pretreating part (which is a major part) entails and all the other factors that go into white ink printing. Coming from someone that does plenty of trade shows, it is not always as easy as it looks when you get it back into your shop.
> 
> Just my opinion,
> 
> Mark


In order to get the most consistent results day after day your pretreat needs to be the same everytime. We rely on being able to adjust our pretreat application in 1% increments during production. By pretreating at the machine level, we can see live what is happening on the shirt as the ink and the pretreat come together. So if the pretreat needs to be adjusted we can doing on the spot. Pretreating in advance does not give you that opportunity. I am partial, but effeciency in this area cuts waste.


----------



## Instacopy

Is there a pretreat machine out there for less (Significantly less) than $4500 - $5000?


----------



## spiderx1

ROYAL SAVAGE said:


> In order to get the most consistent results day after day your pretreat needs to be the same everytime. We rely on being able to adjust our pretreat application in 1% increments during production. By pretreating at the machine level, we can see live what is happening on the shirt as the ink and the pretreat come together. So if the pretreat needs to be adjusted we can doing on the spot. Pretreating in advance does not give you that opportunity. I am partial, but effeciency in this area cuts waste.


I believe your machine is a rather unique dtg. But point is taken that a pretreat machine or in your case automated pretreat within the machine. Allows for more consistant results. However thru practice you can achieve good results without the automation. Same as painting a car by a hand sprayer vs robot at factory. Both can be satisfactory but one is the same over and over. Guess it really comes down to $$$ and what level you want to be at.


----------



## ROYAL SAVAGE

spiderx1 said:


> I believe your machine is a rather unique dtg. But point is taken that a pretreat machine or in your case automated pretreat within the machine. Allows for more consistant results. However thru practice you can achieve good results without the automation. Same as painting a car by a hand sprayer vs robot at factory. Both can be satisfactory but one is the same over and over. Guess it really comes down to $$$ and what level you want to be at.


spiderx1
This is a great post. You said it as good as anyone could have said it. 

"Guess it really comes down to $$$ and what level you want to be at."

That attitude is what can actually make DTG printers a community. I don't care what you use. I just love the process. I've printed millions of t-shirts over the years with screens - DTG is more fun. I just like hangin with people that print t-shirts. It's a brutal, but fun business and truthfully there are not that many of us when compared to office workers on the man's clock.

My business runs at a certain level and I run in different circles than you may but we are just DTG printers! This is my latest article in Impressions. It will give you an idea of why I say the things that I say. I am seriously committed to direct-to-garment printing as a means to make a living and I hope that everyone makes money as well. We haven'y even scratched the surface of the possibilities. 

Good common sense post. It's better than the sniping that goes on!


----------



## tropictsandthing

First month in---we are trying to use a treated paper once we lay down ink to cure. The paper is sticking to the print. Have tried lower (325) and higher (335) temps with the same results. 3 minute press time. HELP!


----------



## abmcdan

There are 2 kinds of paper make sure you have the right one. For a quick test go buy parchment paper at a grocery store and see if that fixes your problem.


----------



## equipmentzone1

tropictsandthing said:


> First month in---we are trying to use a treated paper once we lay down ink to cure. The paper is sticking to the print. Have tried lower (325) and higher (335) temps with the same results. 3 minute press time. HELP!


You're probably not using the right type of paper. Curing paper needs a non-stick coating so it doesn't stick to the ink (usually either silicone, Quilon or Teflon). You can feel the difference between plain paper and paper that has been coated. Your pressure could also be too high on the heat press. You're looking for light pressure when curing.

-Alex


----------



## spiderx1

Try this light or hover for first minute. 
Then medium for last 2 min. This should improve your colors as well. 
The first minute is critical. Keep in mind that many use a tunnel dryer with good results. I.e. No pressure.


----------



## CreativeInk

Hi, I'm totally new to this and was pretty set on purchasing the Anajet mp5. I think i'll do a little more homework now  thanks so much for the info.


----------



## CreativeInk

I'm starting to feel a bit scared after reading all this. So if not DTG then what? I want to be able to take custom orders but i want to be able to design my own for retail sale. AHHH Help!!
Cilya


----------



## binki

binki said:


> DTG printing is the most exciting thing to happen to the garment industry since automatic screen machines and dyesub. There are, however, things you need to know.
> 
> 1) the ink has a shelf life. the longer it sits around the bigger the chance you will have bad ink.
> 
> 2) production times are nowhere near screen printing. while you can print short runs profitably, longer runs need much better control of costs to be competitive.
> 
> 3) printing a single shirt can take 4 minutes or more from start to finish.
> 
> 3) this is a complicated piece of equipment with close tolerances. not paying attention to that fact will yield nothing but frustration.
> 
> 4) these machines like to run. the more you run it the happier it will be. the less you run it or the longer it just sits around the more chance you will have for problems like head clogs.
> 
> 5) the ink is expensive.
> 
> 6) pressing the shirts after printing adds to the time to print, consider a tunnel dryer like screen printers use.
> 
> 7) color matching is a big issue. make sure you understand how colors work on a pc, how that are translated in the rip, and how your machine treats them.
> 
> 8) unlike screen printing or embroidery, bitmaps (raster images) are your friend. imo this is one huge advantage over other forms of decorating.
> 
> did i miss anything


over 3 years since i wrote this, here is an update. 

a) pretreat all garments, light and dark. 

b) learn how the machine works and how to replace every part that can go bad.

c) never work on the machine while it is plugged in (fried motherboard)

d) clean the machine often. it will run better. this includes the encoder strip and wheel, capping station, wiper assembly, ink delivery system and any place else dust will accumulate

e) keep enough spare parts, 2 of everything that costs under $100 and maybe one of other critical elements. this includes encoder strip, ribbon cables, printhead carriage, print head and capping station/wiper assembly. 

f) when your machine won't print don't assume it is the print head. the capping station may be dirty or not seating the print head or your lines may be a little clogged. learn how to clean the capping station or just replace it. learn how to flush your lines with cleaning solution. 

g) know your costs so you can price affectively. 

h) offer different products such as portraits that can command a higher price. 

i) get intimate with your rip software and understand how it works and what each option is for. contact the developer company if you have to (if your vendor doesn't know or won't tell)

j) do your homework, make sure you go to the vendor and bring some artwork with you to see the entire process before you buy. you need to know all the steps and see it in action as you would have to do with someone just walking in with a picture and wanting it printed on a shirt. 

good luck and enjoy your printing!


----------



## beanie357

On the money. Yes, pretreat them all. Yes figure out tunnel conveyors. Yes buy spares. Yes become intimate with the machine. Our staff has learned to say hello to it in the morning, and offer it lunch. Then make sure it's happy at 5pm.


----------



## spiderx1

Happy Turkey Day. Good advice right on target. Thanks for the post.


----------



## Loroman

cavedave said:


> I would like to add,
> 
> Research the dealer / manufacture you buy the machine from, these machines are all high maintance compared with most other inkjets and good support from the manufacture / dealer can be worth a fortune and defintly worth paying a little extra for in the long run.
> Check the details of the warrenty (on site vs return to manufacture) (3 months vs 12 months) and what extended warrently will cost once the initial warrenty expires.
> 
> I never buy warrenty on desktop printers or PC's, but if I was buying a DTG machine I would certainly want it.
> 
> Best regards
> 
> -David


Thank you David and everyone in here for this vital info. The warranty on these DTG machines had me questioning.


----------



## crazymickey

but how do you find the wash and wear? I got 4 or 5 samples (white and black shirts) from different dealers (different makes) of dtg printers, and they were all terrible. Showed serious signs of wear or fade after 5 or 6 washes.(washed in cold, inside out) Especially the white shirts. Whats up with that? They claim 60-80 washes on their websites. I was all ready to buy one, but now.. Im not sure. Repeat business was gonna be a big part of mine, and with poor results like that, I wont get it.


----------



## GaryLivingston

abmcdan said:


> You should also get some training in basic artwork stuff. Adobe Photoshop is a good software that will be compatible with most any files you will receive. There are people here that also use Corel.
> 
> Things you should know about artwork (Off the top of my head, chime in if I'm incorrect or left something out):
> 
> 1.) DPI - Most importantly know that graphics off of the internet are usually 72 dpi and typically you need a 150 dpi image or better for the highest print quality. Just because it looks nice on screen doesn't mean it will print nice. Garbage In = Garbage Out
> 
> 2.) Know the difference between the common file types: .jpg, .gif, .psd, .png, .eps
> 
> 3.) Basic image manipulation: Since what is shown on screen might be different than the printed image you may need to change the image to get the correct output. Lighten and Darken, etc..
> 
> Andy


Hey, I'm new here. Just started reading through this great thread. 

Taking a quick break to correct this statement cause my 15 years of experience and training in digital imaging is making me unable to let this go...haha.

1) DPI/PPI refers to image resolution. It tells a person/machine that for every inch there are X amount of dots/pixels. 

In order to determine what the resolution is you MUST have the dimensions in inches (or some other measurement of length). 

Saying xDPI or xPPI without those dimensions is meaningless. 

You determine the actual image resolution by multiplying the DPI/PPI by the number of inches in each dimension. 

Watch: 
I need to print my graphic on a shirt. I want it to be 8x10 inches. It is a photo realistic image and I know I need to have at least 300ppi in order for it to look sharp (not blurry). How many pixels do I need to print this correctly?

8 inches x 300ppi = 2400pixels
10 inches x 300ppi = 3000 pixels

My graphic must be 2400x3000pixels

Also, when you look at an image on the computer screen you are not looking at images that are 72dpi. 

Not every monitor is set at the same resolution. Not every monitor is the same dimensions physically.

While some monitors may be smaller physically they have more tiny pixels/dots packed into them (new retina screens by Apple for example).

My 22 inch NEC monitor has a resolution of 1,920×1,080 pixels. My 15 inch MacBook Pro has a resolution of 1440x900.

If I look at the same image on both my monitors the image will not be the same size physically across the screen in inches. This is because there are different numbers of pixels on each monitor and different physical dimensions for those pixels to fit into.

Therefore, the image can not be 72dpi just because you are looking at in on a computer monitor. If that were the case, the image would never change physical size when viewed on different monitors. Remember, DPI/PPI must have dimensions in inches attached to it or it is meaningless.

What you are looking at on a computer monitor can only be accurately described in its actual pixel resolution. Ex: 500x400 pixels. 

PPI/DPI really only comes into play when you are outputting the image. Mainly into print. This is because you have a controlled medium to output to. 

Computer monitors used by typical consumers is not a controlled medium. It's all over the place. Just ask web designers about what they deal with to optimize the sites they create for users with no set resolution, OS, browser, or anything else standardized. 

**Bonus asshole comment** Everything we deal with in the computer is pixel based. Nothing in this digital realm is a dot. So, DPI is the wrong term to use. It's still used because of old print types having a hard time understanding and adopting pixels into their vocabulary. It's fine to use it as long as you know the difference. Everything we output from our printers are dots though. DPI means something here. We're printing dots, not pixels. That said, it's very important to know the difference between the two and how they work. You can print an image at 8x10 at 300PPI AND at 1440DPI. The image resolution in pixels tells the printer how many inches it is and how many "pixels" to replicate per inch...it is also telling the printer how many dots to lay down in that inch as it replicates those pixels in the form of dots. That's probably super effing confusing to first think about. But, you'll hopefully understand this already if you've been printing for a while and if you're new, you will understand as you print more and can see the settings and how printing works.

2) Good advice

3) This is referring to color management. If you want some insight on what color management is and how it works, this is a fantastic read:
http://www.xrite.com/documents/literature/en/l11-176_guide_to_cm_en.pdf

It helps you understand how devices talk to each other about color. Once you start to understand that, it gets lot easier to know WHY you are making certain adjustments and how you can better control your output.

Ok, back to reading through this thread.


----------



## JoeLongtin

Paul Green just published a vendor-agnostic article in Printwear's 2012 D2 Report that attempts to capture the top 5 most important things you should do before you invest in direct to garment. 

It's business-oriented and repeats and reinforces much of what has been said here. Before the expert technicians on this thread snicker in derision , the intent is to set realistic expectations for someone who is outside this industry, a noob. If you're already a DTG magician there's nothing new here for you. 

I’ll summarize the highlights:

Have a marketing plan. Never assume that customers are going to line up for your company or that the business will grow organically. The better developed your marketing database and growth plans, the faster you will grow it.
(Attend or) complete product training. Too many DTG owners enter the industry with not a lick of hands-on training. Or they fail to leverage tools. Spending a little time and/or money on learning will pay off big time.
Create a dedicated shop environment. You wouldn’t bring a newborn baby home and THEN start to set up a nursery, right?
Invest in graphics training. You are going to be a graphics production department, by proxy. Learn the software that you will use to optimize customer graphics NOW.
Establish a learning curve. Last but not least, don’t schedule orders for fulfillment the day you get the printer.
The supplement also has a few other great articles by other industry experts.

One of our field techs also recommended that we mention a few other critical bits of knowledge:



Use 100% cotton rather than 50/50 blends – it’s water based ink


The weight of the shirt – 6 oz, 5.5 oz, 5 oz, etc. – and the weave – ringspun, slub knit, etc. – will all have a significant effect on pre-treatment volume and ink adhesion – so test and practice with every variety of shirt you sell

Along the lines of software learning: This is vital because your customer’s graphics will sometimes look great on a screen but often be terrible for printing purposes. Too many DTG owners blame the printer when they have not prepped a source graphic first. You will often need to convert graphics to RGB values. If you don’t, you will see a difference in quality. The goal is to achieve the best possible image fidelity.


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## humvee908

It’s quite frustrating to hear that in spite of controlling the environment (20 to 27C, >50% Humidity), limiting the dust, and running a dark shirt print (at least) every but day still DTG has to face clogging issues? I never had one yet but I thought these kind of things if consistently done will avoid you to be in trouble with the DTG.

I have my concern as well, what do you think about the machines made out of outsourced Epson Print head? Chinese made DTG’s are also using Epson printhead. Are they all the same considering that they brandish the same print heads? What will happen to these DTGs if suddenly Epson stops manufacturing your type of printhead, such could put one in a predicament of not finding one to replace his printhead? That worries me as I don’t like my 20k (6k in Chinese made J) machine idle in the corner and collect dust. 

It has been mentioned in this thread also that the printhead is considered consumables? If that is the case is it predictable? Under a careful run would a certain printhead last only for an X amount of prints?

I am actually researching and planning to buy DTG Kiosk.


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## JoeLongtin

humvee908 said:


> It’s quite frustrating to hear that in spite of controlling the environment (20 to 27C, >50% Humidity), limiting the dust, and running a dark shirt print (at least) every but day still DTG has to face clogging issues? I never had one yet but I thought these kind of things if consistently done will avoid you to be in trouble with the DTG.
> 
> I have my concern as well, what do you think about the machines made out of outsourced Epson Print head? Chinese made DTG’s are also using Epson printhead. Are they all the same considering that they brandish the same print heads? What will happen to these DTGs if suddenly Epson stops manufacturing your type of printhead, such could put one in a predicament of not finding one to replace his printhead? That worries me as I don’t like my 20k (6k in Chinese made J) machine idle in the corner and collect dust.
> 
> It has been mentioned in this thread also that the printhead is considered consumables? If that is the case is it predictable? Under a careful run would a certain printhead last only for an X amount of prints?
> 
> I am actually researching and planning to buy DTG Kiosk.


No, you're right - if you have a good quality machine, running a dark shirt every day should mitigate clogging in that environment. Digital apparel printing technology has come a LONG way in the past 7 years, and ink recirculation, a relatively airtight delivery system, combined with good humidity, good maintenance and daily use is sufficient to preserve the print head(s). An occasional white line flush doesn't hurt either.

Stainless steel heads can last indefinitely with proper care and use. 
As far as clogging, it mostly depends on just one thing: are you leaving white ink in the lines without using it for several days in a row? This is a common user error. We train against it, we blog and publish articles warning against it, but people still do it. 

TSF owners of d-t-g printers - including competitors - know what I am talking about: an owner who refuses to understand the machine, puts ink in and walks away. Vendors should take their licks from customers if their equipment fails, but it goes both ways. 

I own a pre-SPRINT FP-125 now - 1900 head on an 1800 chassis - and I only load white ink when I have a batch of dark shirts to print. Otherwise I flush and leave those channels idle with cleaning fluid. I leave CMYK and auto-maintenance running in a 45 RH environment. Sometimes I go a week without running a print, just a nozzle check. I factory-refurbished it after buying from a 3rd party. I have never had a clog. Not a product plug, just a fact. 

As far as the supply of print heads, this is where having a company with demonstrated engineering savvy is key. You can go with purely vertical companies who make their nut on consumables. Expect to pay through the nose for their inks and supplies. Or you can go with a company that outsources some components, assuming they have covered their bases and have sufficient backing to retroactively engineer improvements.

In either case, if your key worry is the idea of repairing or replacing a couple thousand bucks worth of equipment once every year or two, you might want to take another look at your business plan.

No matter what technology you choose, there will be a "getting familiar" curve of weeks or possibly months -- and definitely consumption of equipment and supplies -- that doesn't directly drive profit. This is to be expected and planned for. The same is true of screen printing, embroidery, dye-sub and other technologies.


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## spiderx1

Print heads for the Kiosk 1/2 are no longer produced a few are around but on the last few. Prices will sky rocket!!!


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## humvee908

Thanks Joe for the information,

@ Spider, what would you think owners of Kiosk 1&2 will do if thier heads suddenly runs out of stock now? Is the manafacturer (DTG) mitigated this already?


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## Taparrabo

Awesome information! I bought my DTG printer (T-Jet 2) about 5 months ago and I can tell you that frustration is part of me now. While reading all this, I see light at the end of the tunnel. Many things that have been going wrong have been caused by my ignorance. 

Sure it is harder than they said, way harder, but it sure can be fun. Pre-treat and t-shirt quality are key to a better looking garment. So mastering pre-treatment is going to take a while, but is critical. And don't try to save a lot buying cheap tees...go with good quality cotton. 

Thanks for the info and time, it's been really helpful!


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## sandb

Thank you everyone for all the great info, I've learned so much from this thread.

I do have one question which was never really addressed. Everyone's advice has to do with what to know from the printing side of things - what about when the shirt lands in the customers hands? To point:

*I have read that the biggest drawback for DTG printed shirts is that they fade very quickly, faster when washed frequently and in warm/hot water. Is this still true, or have advancements been made in the technology that this is not an issue?*

I want to offer my customers quality that will not fade overtime. After all, why return to my store and buy my shirts if they don't hold up? Thanks in advance to anyone that can shed some light on this.

Edit: Just to be clear, I have been reading around the forums and this is definitely an issue, often dealt with by finding the right curing time and what not. Still, those posts are all from several years ago and I am curious if there have been significant improvements. Thanks


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## equipmentzone1

sandb said:


> Thank you everyone for all the great info, I've learned so much from this thread.
> 
> I do have one question which was never really addressed. Everyone's advice has to do with what to know from the printing side of things - what about when the shirt lands in the customers hands? To point:
> 
> *I have read that the biggest drawback for DTG printed shirts is that they fade very quickly, faster when washed frequently and in warm/hot water. Is this still true, or have advancements been made in the technology that this is not an issue?*
> 
> I want to offer my customers quality that will not fade overtime. After all, why return to my store and buy my shirts if they don't hold up? Thanks in advance to anyone that can shed some light on this.


Direct-to-Garment printed shirts, when cured properly, can hold up just as well or better than a shirt decorated with another method. Turning a shirt inside out and washing it in cold water will extend the lifetime of a garment decorated with any technology; washing in hot water will similarly shorten the lifetime of any decorated garment. 

It's important to dry the shirts properly to get good wash results. Also, if the shirt requires pretreatment, it needs the right amount. Too much pretreatment will affect washability.

One plus with direct-to-garment is that you're unlikely to see any cracking in the garment over time, assuming the shirt was cured and pretreated properly. In fact, on light colored shirts, cracking is impossible since the ink "soaks" in to the fibers of the shirt.

-Alex


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## binki

We eat our own dogfood here. We print on shirts and wear and wash them and they are as good as screen printing. We we have found is our customers are either taking their shirts to a dry cleaner or going to a laundry mat or even worse, washing them with rock (I made that part up but the shirts look like they did that)

We just went through this with apparel vinyl that looks like they beat the crap out of them. 

None of my shirts have these problems. I was cold only but dry for 70 minutes at high heat. No problems in the last 5+ years. None. Ever. 

The 'fading' is a result of the shirt breaking down. This is less of an issue with ringspun shirts but it will happen. The shirt is the problem, not the print. Screen printed shirts will have exactly the same problem.

By the way, I started this post 5 years ago. I am glad someone still reads it. 

And by the way, The print heads are still available from about 300 on ebay to 400-500 other places.


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## sandb

Thank's to both of you for the quick response. So it sounds like pretreatment and curing can keep the fading issue from happening.

On a side note, I had a shirt digitally printed by Uberprints to see the quality (white shirt printed with pink and blue). After washing once (warm water - I didn't know), visible fading happened. Do you think Uberprints, as a large custom shirt place, just doesn't care about taking the time to make sure everything was pretreated and cured properly to make the lousy $25 I paid?

P.S. binki - Besides the fact that this post is pinned to the DTG section, I find it in poor taste when people start threads without reading around a site, so of course people are still reading your post! Thanks again!


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## binki

sandb said:


> ...
> P.S. binki - Besides the fact that this post is pinned to the DTG section, I find it in poor taste when people start threads without reading around a site, so of course people are still reading your post! Thanks again!


Thanks for the kind words. A lot has changed in 5+ years, I have lost a lot of hair! Besides that I have a very intimate relationship with my dtg printer so I think I can speak from an unbiased eye since we do screen printing, embroidery, awards, engraving, vinyl, signs and banners. It has been an adventure for sure.


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## fetfreak

Hello guys. I'm new here and I was thinking of buying a used dtg printer.
I'm not aiming at anything huge and I've read this thread and few parts of the forum.
Basically what I'm interested is, have things changed by the year 2013? This thread was started years ago and I'm simply wandering do heads still clog often? Is ink still expensive and prone to issues? And so on.

Also, my aim is to create designed ****s (I'm a graphic designer) very fashionable on different shirt models, something unique. I know I can pull that off and I would charge them around 30$. I would be satisfied by selling 50-100 shirts a month (my country has a different standard). I'm wondering what would be the best printer to buy for this endeavor?

Thanks, this forum is really helpful!


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## blzpowr

The "best" can be a very general question. Part of the answer would depend on where you are located. We have outstanding results and reliability with our Mod1 by Belquette.

Do you plan on including dark color garments which would require white ink capability? The Mod excels as does Belquette quality, support and responsiveness.

As you have surveyed this forum re: dtg, I'm sure you've repeatedly read threads about pretreat, machine maintenance, curing, drying, etc. which seem intense to one not actually yet in the mix themselves. They are all critical to a successful outcome and I don't think that has changed a bit, and probably won't.

As with any technical undertaking whether it's dtg, screen, embroidery, sublimation, or painting cars or finishing furniture for that matter, to achieve a positive durable outcome requires a level of training first, quality equipment and a continuing dedication to refining operator technique in addition to quality and correct input product such as the design, the garment, pretreat and yes, the inks. This need not be overwhelming. It is an ongoing adventure in continuing education in the end. In the beginning it is only a caution to dig, ask questions, make notes, check out the people you are dealing with and their track records, study your market and your resources, examine your level of commitment and then proceed.

As with many industries, some people come to the shore thinking the technology is a 'one button' college degree and whatever they throw at the wall will turn out great because of the sophistication of the technology. Dtg is a great and advancing tech. But like virtually all technology it is a "garbage in, garbage out" situation. You want to be fully prepared and then use the equipment as a tool, not the solution.

Good luck with your endeavor. You've started in the right place by digging in and asking. You can and will do well with sharp focus.


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## equipmentzone

fetfreak said:


> Hello guys. I'm new here and I was thinking of buying a used dtg printer.
> I'm not aiming at anything huge and I've read this thread and few parts of the forum.
> Basically what I'm interested is, have things changed by the year 2013? This thread was started years ago and I'm simply wandering do heads still clog often? Is ink still expensive and prone to issues? And so on.
> 
> Also, my aim is to create designed ****s (I'm a graphic designer) very fashionable on different shirt models, something unique. I know I can pull that off and I would charge them around 30$. I would be satisfied by selling 50-100 shirts a month (my country has a different standard). I'm wondering what would be the best printer to buy for this endeavor?
> 
> Thanks, this forum is really helpful!




All these printers work best when they are used frequently. If you are only planning on printing 50 shirts a month you may want to consider contracting out the printing to a company that already owns a direct to garment printer and having them do the printing for you. If you see that your print numbers grow then you can look for your own printer.


_


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## fetfreak

I thought as much. Thanx for the reply!

What is an optional monthly run for the machine to be happy?


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## equipmentzone

At least 100 or more spread out throughout a month. 


_


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## JoeLongtin

fetfreak said:


> Hello guys. I'm new here and I was thinking of buying a used dtg printer.
> I'm not aiming at anything huge and I've read this thread and few parts of the forum.
> Basically what I'm interested is, have things changed by the year 2013? This thread was started years ago and I'm simply wandering do heads still clog often? Is ink still expensive and prone to issues? And so on.
> 
> Also, my aim is to create designed ****s (I'm a graphic designer) very fashionable on different shirt models, something unique. I know I can pull that off and I would charge them around 30$. I would be satisfied by selling 50-100 shirts a month (my country has a different standard). I'm wondering what would be the best printer to buy for this endeavor?
> 
> Thanks, this forum is really helpful!


What's different in 2013? I can tell you that the expectations of customers for user-friendly DTG printers has forced manufacturers to simplify and speed up the maintenance routines, automate more processes and make sure that ink flows evenly and smoothly with fewer and faster daily preparation steps.

Depending on the manufacturer, more expensive, but more durable stainless steel heads are available that allow industrial strength production, but without the $50K-$250K price tag that is only feasible for the $1M and up shops. 

An underrated improvement is in RIP software. You should expect a RIP software to deliver extremely high color fidelity, plus fine control of drop size, speed, saturation and white underbase. 

Some RIPs enable a lot of flexibility in color and background manipulation. A few enable instant transparency for whatever color you choose. No RIP means that you need to refine your source image and create transparencies in PhotoShop/Illustrator/DRAW or in the print dialogue.

White ink itself hasn't changed (other than incrementally) but with non-Epson-based printers, you can expect to see white ink clogging dealt with in different ways. It also doesn't stop owners from being extremely profitable when they understand their equipment, understand graphic design, and are proficient in their target markets.

The technology that has had to improve is agitation and recirculation. There are a few manufacturers that have agitation features. 

That said, don't buy a DTG printer until you're certain you have the time and interest in giving it daily or almost daily TLC.


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## sandmanbjj

As a new owner, if I could interject a bit of advice I am quickly learning. 
The t shirt business is a deadline driven industry! Nobody plans ahead for what they need. They walk in on Wednesday and want it by Friday. Or the event they have is in 1 week etc. 
That was told to me and I ignored it, now I realize, that means I'm jumping when orders come in.


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## fetfreak

JoeLongtin said:


> White ink itself hasn't changed (other than incrementally) but with non-Epson-based printers, you can expect to see white ink clogging dealt with in different ways. It also doesn't stop owners from being extremely profitable when they understand their equipment, understand graphic design, and are proficient in their target markets.


So I take it you don't recommend epson?


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## JoeLongtin

fetfreak said:


> So I take it you don't recommend epson?


Well-made Epson-based DTG printers can handle white ink and run without clogging when carefully maintained, especially w/r/t humidity and controlling for exposure to air, and the white ink is used daily. Look up higher in the thread where I comment on the Epson-based printer that I own and run with white ink.


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## equipmentzone

All direct to garment printers, no matter what type print engine they use or their cost, require having the proper environment (especially humidity levels of at least 50%). They also all require a regular maintenance schedule to avoid issues. This applies equally to Ricoh, Epson, Brother, or Kornit platforms.

_


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## ROYAL SAVAGE

What you need to do is calculate your costs.

If you buy a machine and the cost to you is $300.00 (low end price) per month and you do 100 shirts the machine costs you $3.00 per shirt + plus ink + rent + plus utilities + plus labor + credit card processing fees +++ learning curve. 

Gildan g200 $2.50
machine $3.00
ink per side $
pretreat $
labor $
rent $
utilities $
card fees $
EST. COST $

Lots to calculate. 100 shirts is a tough sell to buy equipment. You'd be better off creating as many designs as you can and getting samples


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## equipmentzone

Kevin gave you a great breakdown, Have some of your designs printed up by an outside printing company and see how sales go for 2 or 3 months. Once you have an idea of what you might expect in monthly sales you can then plug in the numbers and see if you have the profit potential to make money with your own printer.

_


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## dicedesignPHILLY

Great thread.


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## Ghingis876

Great thread


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## equipmentzone

The more you know before going in to this greatly increases your ability of being successful with it.

_


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## wade4916

Subcontracting the jobs to others until you have steady flow of business. Most of my customers having DTG printer problem is lack of usage.


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## Print1Shirt

BSB said:


> You say do your homework...Where do you look for that homework? The more I read the more confused I get. I do small jobs and want to trade my screen print machine in for a DTG printer so I can offer more options and 1 ups but I am confused on which one to buy.


BSB, 

Here an honest opinion and you might need to answer first prior to looking into DTG. If you are prepared to do daily maintenance, getting problems daily or on a weekly basis and it is something you would like to reduce as part of your operation? You might not be ready for a DTG. Does a DTG work well when working? The answer is yes. Does it cover areas I would not do in screen printing or heat transfer? The answer is yes. Will it take time for maintenance, troubleshooting and learning something new in the DTG behavior, likes and dislikes? The answer is yes. Does the environment have to be controlled? The answer is yes.

So, if you are still ok with what's ahead of you base on the questions, then go and spend the money.

Lastly, does it take time to prep garment prior to printing? The answer is yes. Are you limited on the type of garment to print on? The answer is yes unless you have the correct pallets to use and have tested many kinds of garments, the right pretreat prep and amount, pressing time, etc. Would you need time to create profiles, template layouts, etc? The answer is yes other than what the manufacturer have already provided. Will you be spending money on both actual testing and learning? The answer is yes. Will you be spending money when the machine has issues and just takes a dump in between production, the answer is yes. Does the manufacturer have documentation on lots of the quirkiness of DTG? Probably not.

DTG is a hybrid machine that is desk jet type, which has its own issues, then put together inks that has to be maintained a certain way, and a machine that is either new engineering or repurposed, plus all the other extras you have to do on the garment then thrown in a bowl and mixed. This what you would expect.

I guess this is base on a mid level DTG. Not sure how the higher end or lower end DTG is. I would like to get my hands on those for testing as well as pretreat machines.

You can send test print to all the DTG companies and you probably get great samples. You can even read awesome DTG specs as far as speed, etc. You can even go to all the shows and see it for yourself how well it prints and you will be amazed. But if you are not comfortable with the questions I asked, you may not be ready for DTG.

Do I like our machine? The answer is yes. Does it print well. The answer is yes and it is awesome! Do I wish I had time testing a machine prior to spending a large sum of money or interviewed someone who will provide a real honest opinion and experience instead of just reading from the web or viewing it from shows? The answer is yes. Because all of those you only see the front side of the machine. Once you own one then you see what goes on behind the scene. Do I have to remind myself on what to expect from the machine and where DTG is today now that we own one. The answer is yes. If I don't, I will take the machine and drop it from the tallest building.

If there is a way for you to try pretreatment manually prior to experience it, you should.


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## wade4916

Well said. I totally agreed.


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## Diligence

Reading this thread was like attending my first Fight Club meeting which, according to the rules of Fight Club, I should not be talking about lol. Got punched in the face with all the information but at the end I needed it. 

Thank you once again for this thread. Glad it was created. I was looking for the "hidden" costs of DTG and found more than I expected. I am glad I did. Never knew I would need a hygrometer or even a humidifier. Time to read some more lol.


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## binki

I started this in 2008, glad to see it is still alive. While we had our problems with DTG and eventually sold the machine after 5 years of constant use I can say that on light garments we always made money, not so much on darks but we did get some amazing prints. I am actually wearing one now that still looks pretty good. 

While we have watched the advancements in the industry and think they are great it just isn't for us today. We have replaced it with a Versacamm which works pretty well for our market which is mostly sports teams and one-offs.


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## Diligence

Thanks for responding. I really do appreciate it. If you don't mind me asking what were exact reasons you decided to leave the DTG behind? Was it just too troublesome or did it just not fit your business model?


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## spiderx1

Well things have changed so much in just the last year. New pretreatment without window of application.wash durability is great, new printers with very little or virtually no clogging issues, ink prices at all time low.


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## Diligence

spiderx1 said:


> Well things have changed so much in just the last year. New pretreatment without window of application.wash durability is great, new printers with very little or virtually no clogging issues, ink prices at all time low.


That is encouraging to hear. Should I search throughout the forums for information on these advancements or is there a industry magazine or website I can read. I am also starting to research which DTG printer I should get right now.


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## wade4916

Go to the trade show like SGIA. or regional shows like ISS. You will find lots of new idea and products.


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## binki

Our market pretty much changed. We do a lot of sports teams and leagues so the Versacamm is a better option for us. We still do t's with it but our main T market is women so that is mostly rhinestones and glitter vinyl.


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## Betoris

Hi everyone!

This forum has been a great deal of help, I am starting a T-shirt business in Brazil where I currently live. If anyone could help me out with some questions I still have:

1. Preparing the garment. I have seen the outcome of the T-shirt (100% cotton) after receiving the pre-treatment (so the ink "holds" on better) and direct print...it simply hardens the garment, requiring -somehow- a previous wash before wearing it. Do all pretreatments harden the cloth like this? Do retailers simply sell this way and let customers wash and then wear? Or am I getting something wrong? Because, as far as I have read, you could perfectly "do without" the pre-treament on light colors, but the durability of the image isn't as good. Correct?

2. Brazil is a humid place, tropical weather year round...does this affect the printer in any way? Or is dry air the only issue?

Thanks for the help!


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## woohooguy

Betoris said:


> Hi everyone!
> 
> This forum has been a great deal of help, I am starting a T-shirt business in Brazil where I currently live. If anyone could help me out with some questions I still have:
> 
> 1. Preparing the garment. I have seen the outcome of the T-shirt (100% cotton) after receiving the pre-treatment (so the ink "holds" on better) and direct print...it simply hardens the garment, requiring -somehow- a previous wash before wearing it. Do all pretreatments harden the cloth like this? Do retailers simply sell this way and let customers wash and then wear? Or am I getting something wrong? Because, as far as I have read, you could perfectly "do without" the pre-treament on light colors, but the durability of the image isn't as good. Correct?
> 
> 2. Brazil is a humid place, tropical weather year round...does this affect the printer in any way? Or is dry air the only issue?
> 
> Thanks for the help!


Hi friend,

1. Pretreatment does affect the garment in someway. It does make it does look like it requires wash. but i dont think you need to do that, because it will go away by itself. If you show your product right after you print it, then the customer will ask some questions and you need to do some explainings.
Pretreatment makes the prints look better but not necessary. but you must make sure to use Light Garment pretreatment.

2. we live in the same hemisphere, my country (indonesia) is also very humid all year round. Make sure you buy a humidity monitor to control the humidity level of your working area.

I left DTG 2 years ago. but hopefully, it helps.


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## ceesiren

Betoris said:


> Hi everyone!
> 
> This forum has been a great deal of help, I am starting a T-shirt business in Brazil where I currently live. If anyone could help me out with some questions I still have:
> 
> 1. Preparing the garment. I have seen the outcome of the T-shirt (100% cotton) after receiving the pre-treatment (so the ink "holds" on better) and direct print...it simply hardens the garment, requiring -somehow- a previous wash before wearing it. Do all pretreatments harden the cloth like this? Do retailers simply sell this way and let customers wash and then wear? Or am I getting something wrong? Because, as far as I have read, you could perfectly "do without" the pre-treament on light colors, but the durability of the image isn't as good. Correct?
> 
> 2. Brazil is a humid place, tropical weather year round...does this affect the printer in any way? Or is dry air the only issue?
> 
> Thanks for the help!


Pretreating is crucial, in my opinon, even for white shirts. Without it the ink doesn't look as bright and the image isn't as sharp... and the washability is very iffy without it (the images fade rapidly with repeat washings... and I mean 2 or 3, not dozens)... I'm fairly new to the biz and for months I thought these problems were something I was doing wrong since I was told no pretreat was necessary for light shirts (unless you were printing white ink), then I found Image Armor light pretreat and it was like a lightbulb turning on! (The one drawback was that you can't air-dry the Image Armor pretreated shirts and you have to heat press them dry, which is hugely time-consuming and inconvenient... but, again, I thought the results were worth it.)

I had never really had much of a problem with dark shirts and how they looked because, of course, I always knew to pretreat them. Just remember that the light shirt pretreat is different than the dark shirt pretreat and, frankly, as much as I love the results, it's a pain in the butt and a major time suck to pretreat every shirt AND to have to keep switching the pretreat in my sprayer. 

But just this week a new universal pretreat has come on the market by a company called Firebird that works for either light OR dark shirts... and you use it whether you are printing with white ink or not to enhance your images. Even more remarkable, this new pretreat works on both polyester blends AND 100% polyester (they say it will even print white ink on poly blend dark shirts!). YAY, no more switching pretreats all the time! 

I haven't used this new pretreat yet, but I've heard from sources I trust that it is excellent!

BTW, after I pretreat shirts I do not wash them to get rid of the stiffness (and I doubt anyone does), but I do mention that I've used a pretreat and that the stiffness will go away after the first time it's washed. I let then know it will extend the life of the image and make it sound like a bonus I'm throwing in.

Regarding humidity... I live in a fairly humid area too, but still have to use a humidifier to keep it above 55% (usually 65-70%) and I've never had any issues with the machine because of it... but I do have to heat press the shirts for 20 seconds or so just before I print on them to make sure there is no moisture in the fabric.


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## willydeyro

fdsales said:


> The cost to print a shirt remains fairly constant, whether you print 1 or 1,000 of the same design, so you really can't offer much of a quantity discount on larger orders...possibility consider using traditional screen-printing for big orders.
> Make sure you get the correct price for your work to cover your ROI (return on investment).
> Also most models need to be in a climate controlled environment.
> Also need a separate area for pretreatment, and if not done correctly, can cause print quality issues.
> Need to have a separate, dedicated electric circuit.
> Most all the models using white ink will need DAILY maintenance; if not done correctly you'll have head clogs & other print issues.
> Don't be the first to purchase the "new" model; wait a bit & see how this model works out.
> Understand that this industry is changing rapidly; the machine model you purchase today will probably be out of production within 1-2 years, and parts availability may become an issue.
> Most models have the ability to print other items, such as coasters, mouse pads, etc.
> DTG in NOT a replacement for traditional screen printing.
> Take the time to read thru the threads on this forum; there's lot's of really good info on most of the popular mfgs, both good & bad; go to a show & see them in action before making a purchase.
> I'm sure there's more......


I think that a good point to consider..thanks pals for that enlighting ideas that helps.


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## goodtogo

Thank you for a very open and informative thread. Great to have users give their experience with honest and open minds. Living in South Africa I suppose is ideal from a humidity and weather point of view. I have been watching the dtg industry with interest. One of my concerns regarding dtg is the voltage. Ours here is 220V. and I think the voltage in the States is 110v, so I would need a transformer should I venture into the kaleidescope of American made dtg. I think barring a few makes, most newer printers are much of a muchness. The difference would be the support that printer has in a specific area. And that would be another concern. What kind of support can one expect in another continent (another planet almost) and another time zone


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## sowtsof

Hello,
I tested the firebird FBX100, thought that would be my salvation in ahorrao much money and time to change the fluid in my sprayer, but with my experience has not been good in black shirts all ok, but in the white shirts there is a problem, if you give them the sun before his first washed out yellow spots all over the shirt, anyone else have this problem?


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## DTGPRINTERPARTS

sowtsof said:


> Hello,
> I tested the firebird FBX100, thought that would be my salvation in ahorrao much money and time to change the fluid in my sprayer, but with my experience has not been good in black shirts all ok, but in the white shirts there is a problem, if you give them the sun before his first washed out yellow spots all over the shirt, anyone else have this problem?


What printer do you have Dario and have you tried any other brand of Pretreat?


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## sowtsof

I have the kiosk 3,i am in Europe and I use is called pretreated FATBRIGHT but is very expensive and not just behave well in the wash, which pretreated recommend?


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## DTGPRINTERPARTS

There's other pretreatments out there like Image Armor and DuPont. PM me if you are interested in concentrated forms


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