# Tell me about it .... [Embroidery]



## T-BOT

Anyone making good money with emb. these days ?
What makes emb. biz click in 2006/07 ?


----------



## vctradingcubao

*Re: Tell me about it ....*



T-BOT said:


> Anyone making good money with emb. these days ?
> What makes emb. biz click in 2006/07 ?


I think a good retail set-up would be to have a small leased space at the mall, have 1 or 2 single head machines there, and the embroidery shop should be able to digitize on its own (not outsource it), have shirts and other garments available at the shop, and (most importantly) have more or bigger machines available at home,or off site so you can do the volume orders. (WORKS FOR ME) 

Later on, the shop could be expanded to include heat transfer services, or DTG printing. (I HOPE THIS WORKS ALSO)


----------



## T-BOT

*Re: Tell me about it ....*



vctradingcubao said:


> I think a good retail set-up would be to have a small leased space at the mall, have 1 or 2 single head machines there, and the embroidery shop should be able to digitize on its own (not outsource it), have shirts and other garments available at the shop, and (most importantly) have more or bigger machines available at home,or off site so you can do the volume orders. (WORKS FOR ME)
> 
> Later on, the shop could be expanded to include heat transfer services, or DTG printing. (I HOPE THIS WORKS ALSO)


that makes a lot of sense. 

why pay high rents at the mall ? a nice setup like that can bring in big sales too. 

I wonder, do a lot of clients ask for heat transfers ? can they be sold at retail level along with emb. ?


----------



## John S

*Re: Tell me about it ....*



T-BOT said:


> I wonder, do a lot of clients ask for heat transfers ? can they be sold at retail level along with emb. ?


I added photo's on T-shirts, Sweatshirts and tote bags to my emb. business for Christmas this year. I'm adding custom vinyl and youth team uniforms in January. 

People have been asking for it for 4 years. I don't have the sales numbers in, but it was a pretty good start. A T-shirt with an 8x10 photo was $19.99


----------



## Rodney

*Re: Tell me about it ....*



> why pay high rents at the mall ?


Because the foot traffic volume more than makes up for the price of a booth. It's a great return on an investment.


----------



## T-BOT

*Re: Tell me about it ....*



Rodney said:


> Because the foot traffic volume more than makes up for the price of a booth. It's a great return on an investment.


why pay high rents at the mall ? a nice setup like that can bring in big sales too. 

sorry Rod, that was not a question really. I was asking and answering my own question.  

But yeah, a small kiosk/booth in a high traffic mall is ideal. You can generate retail sales and also take orders for large jobs. Unless of course the Lease Agreement does not allow you to make stuff outside the leased space from sales generated there.  ..... always check the fine print or better yet always use a lawyer with Big Mall Leases.

btw John, photo t-shirts at 20 a pop is good. All emb. places should provide that in Malls i think.

But overall, where is the big money in emb. today ? is it making patches for bike clubs, fashion stuff... where ?


----------



## Rodney

*Re: Tell me about it ....*



> But overall, where is the big money in emb. today ? is it making patches for bike clubs, fashion stuff... where ?


I think it's mostly for corporate clients who want polos/hats/vests/jackets done.

That's a big chunk of business. But there's also baseball team caps, company merchandise, etc.

Then there's also the personalization market. People's names on caps, t-shirts, vests, visors, polos, etc.


----------



## MotoskinGraphix

*Re: Tell me about it ....*



T-BOT said:


> why pay high rents at the mall ? a nice setup like that can bring in big sales too.
> 
> sorry Rod, that was not a question really. I was asking and answering my own question.
> 
> But yeah, a small kiosk/booth in a high traffic mall is ideal. You can generate retail sales and also take orders for large jobs. Unless of course the Lease Agreement does not allow you to make stuff outside the leased space from sales generated there.  ..... always check the fine print or better yet always use a lawyer with Big Mall Leases.
> 
> btw John, photo t-shirts at 20 a pop is good. All emb. places should provide that in Malls i think.
> 
> But overall, where is the big money in emb. today ? is it making patches for bike clubs, fashion stuff... where ?


I am going to make a wild guess but I think probably 99.5% of all products sold in large malls (food excluded) are manufactured off site. A good 50% of the Kiosks in our mall are from foriegn countries doing Christmas business. They come in November and set up for the holiday season sell out and leave...no refunds or exchanges. I talked with several folks from Israel and Turkey selling jewelry and leather products as well as the Hickory Farms folks who were basically sold out. Three of the Kiosks were shut down a good three shopping days early because they had sold out of available stock.

I may head in this direction for one of those 8 week holiday lease deals next year....need to check on the numbers once again.

I saw no embroidery this year, I did seen perfume, 3d imaging on trinkets, leather goods, Hickory farms, calanders, massage, cell phones and acc., t-shirts, creams and lotions, wooden toy puzzles, sunglasses, wireless and cable companies.


----------



## T-BOT

*Re: Tell me about it ....*

I understand what you are saying David. I was speaking more about "Custom" type biz not off the shelf ready made stuff.

In Mall Lease Agreements there is a very important part that is under " Terms and Conditions of Use ". This is where what you can and can not sell etc. is spelled out and agreed upon by you and the Landlord.

An example where this may occur would be if there is anothe retailer that also makes "custom" shirts for example, where it is in their lease agreement that no other retailer would be allowed to make bulk orders off site (the mall kiosk etc.).

But yes, for the month of December its a good idea to go into malls and set up a cart or something. High rents but with the right product money can be made.


----------



## Coyote

*Re: Tell me about it ....*

Yeah, the people flow in a Mall is great. But rent is ASTRONOMICAL. I've been on a Mall cart for 5 months (since August) at a medium-sized mall in a midwest city. Rent for Jan-Oct is $1000/mo. Nov-Dec is $5000/mo. That's $20,000/year.

Read all of the fine print too. There are a lot of limitations in there. I had to get permission to add T-shirts to my vinyl sticker sales, for example.

...Mat


----------



## T-BOT

*Re: Tell me about it ....*



Coyote said:


> Yeah, the people flow in a Mall is great. But rent is ASTRONOMICAL. I've been on a Mall cart for 5 months (since August) at a medium-sized mall in a midwest city. Rent for Jan-Oct is $1000/mo. Nov-Dec is $5000/mo. That's $20,000/year.
> 
> Read all of the fine print too. There are a lot of limitations in there. I had to get permission to add T-shirts to my vinyl sticker sales, for example.
> 
> ...Mat


thanks for sharing Mat.
Yeah, good advice... do read the fine print.
One to read real close (with a magnify glass) is the Percentage Rent Part in most Mall Lease Agreements. Most malls will want to include this in the Lease "Percentage Rents". 

What it means is that if your gross sales exceed a certain precentage (7% of the sales is the norm here in Canada) where the 7% of your gross sales is a larger amount than the rent you are paying, you will pay the extra balance amount. 

Again, this come into play when doing big jobs off-site. You need to report these sales on a monthly basis to the landlord. What do you do then ?


----------



## MotoskinGraphix

*Re: Tell me about it ....*



Coyote said:


> Yeah, the people flow in a Mall is great. But rent is ASTRONOMICAL. I've been on a Mall cart for 5 months (since August) at a medium-sized mall in a midwest city. Rent for Jan-Oct is $1000/mo. Nov-Dec is $5000/mo. That's $20,000/year.
> 
> Read all of the fine print too. There are a lot of limitations in there. I had to get permission to add T-shirts to my vinyl sticker sales, for example.
> 
> ...Mat


The rents are high for sure and reading any lease agreement is number one with a bullet.
Can you share your experiences with the board on how your kiosk is doing on a per month basis and as an 8 week holiday crash course. I dont really need you to reveal actual numbers but an overall sense of how its working for you. How do you handle employees? How are you doing the t-shirts...custom vinyl or transfers or just stock images? Are you competing against Hot Topic or other t-shirt type vendors? Is your kiosk near a solid draw as far as other stores in the mall go? What kind of shirt numbers are you actually selling on Monday through Thursday during the non holiday months?

Really anything you would like to share would be very interesting to me as well as other folks interested in such a venture.

There are no custom shirt shops in our mall or in our surrounding area.


----------



## binki

*Re: Tell me about it ....*

It pretty much works that way here but the % is not fixed. If you are in a high cash business like an arcade your rent could be as much as 50% of the gross. It all depends on what your landlord wants. Retail space outside of a mall runs about $2/sq.ft. here and C/I space runs about 70c/sq.ft. You can also buy your space for around $100/sq.ft. in some of the larger locations. All prices are including CAM.


----------



## vctradingcubao

*Re: Tell me about it ....*



T-BOT said:


> Again, this come into play when doing big jobs off-site. You need to report these sales on a monthly basis to the landlord. What do you do then ?


You don't need to report & give the landlords a percentage of the volume/bulk off-site jobs. Only the "actual" sales done in your mall leased space.  
This is the main point of getting small spaces in different malls, and having more/bigger machines at home or off-site for embroidery, printing, etc. You need the mall for exposure, doing 1 off pcs, retail sales for small groups, and for sampling your products. Rodney is right when he says the real money comes from corporate clients, company giveaways, i.e. the bulk orders, which you do at home/off-site and be deliverered straight to the clients office/headquarters. Of course, it doesn't hurt when your Mall spaces also makes more that enough money to pay for the rent, salaries, etc. i.e., your mall space operation should be self sustaining, as in the case of John, who now adds printing to his mall space because of customer requests. (I hope John could show me his retail set-up, the services offered at his Mall shops, etc.)


----------



## T-BOT

*Re: Tell me about it ....*

thanks Byron,

yeah, that is the way to do it. Im sure a lot of off-site revenue can be generated from the mall walk by traffic that wants company shirts. For emb. and other like transfer sourcing etc....

I wish some more emb. peeps would step up and tell us how they do it. 

btw. what John is doing running 2 locations is not easy. The whole custom thingee with kiosk type deals in a small chain set-up (10-50 locations) is acctually very hard to do and most that attempt it dont last long (10-50 locations etc). I think the main problem is having staff that does not screw up shirts and .......pocket cash sales. 

I think it works better as owner operator, easy to sell these types of franchises too.


----------



## John S

*Re: Tell me about it ....*



T-BOT said:


> But overall, where is the big money in emb. today ? is it making patches for bike clubs, fashion stuff... where ?


Where is the big money? I wish I knew!

We have a mix of retail and Corp. or Business customers. Profit margins are higher on one item. $10 to sew a name on a customer's stocking. You can only sew out so many stockings in an hour because of the time for setup, hooping, sewing time etc. If you do a 144 left chest logos, you get $3 for the sew out. You can hoop them faster, but your machine takes 10 min. to sew out, That's 24 hours on a single head machine. I have a contractor with 3 - 6 head machines for the large orders if the customer is in a hurry. 

Patches don't pay off. Better to outsource if you can sell enough. Most people just want a few. 

Fashion could work, but most people are not willing to pay for the labor/machine time it would take to create something unique.


----------



## John S

*Re: Tell me about it ....*



vctradingcubao said:


> This is the main point of getting small spaces in different malls, and having more/bigger machines at home or off-site for embroidery, printing, etc. You need the mall for exposure, doing 1 off pcs, retail sales for small groups, and for sampling your products. Rodney is right when he says the real money comes from corporate clients, company giveaways, i.e. the bulk orders, which you do at home/off-site and be deliverered straight to the clients office/headquarters. Of course, it doesn't hurt when your Mall spaces also makes more that enough money to pay for the rent, salaries, etc. i.e., your mall space operation should be self sustaining, as in the case of John, who now adds printing to his mall space because of customer requests. (I hope John could show me his retail set-up, the services offered at his Mall shops, etc.)


BTW: I'm not in a mall, I'm inside the world's largest retailer. 

Good comments, but your missing the Christmas factor. 

There is a 5 week window where sales are dependent on production. If you can't sew it in 3 days, you can't sell it. You must have more staff hours to handle the customers, more staff hours to design and sew out the garments. Every sale is unique, and must be done perfectly. No mistakes by any of the 3 or 4 people who handle the order in the production process. 
Sales volume doubles, then doubles again, then starts to double again. Everyone is on overtime and near overload. Didn't get much sleep last night? tough. You make a mistake on this garment, you'll have to buy a new one for the customer. Of course they bought it on clearance, you'll have to check 4 different stores to see if you can find one more.
Were are you corporate customers? They show up to. 26 Carhart jackets. Full back logo, left chest logo, unique name on each jacket. Talk about machine time. Over 1 hour for each jacket.

Your sales staff don't have to know how to sew, but they have to know how to guide the customer through all the 25 fonts, 50 colors, placement, size, pricing, can we even sew it were the customer is wanting it? etc.....
Everything must be clearly defined and spelled correctly. No two items are the same. 

You may say, just add more equipment. Each machine is about $17,000 each, and you don't have more space in your store for a 3rd machine. Add more staff? It takes about 3 months to teach a smart person how to do all the jobs in the production cycle. What happens to all your staff on December 26 when you can't find a customer if your life depended on it. 
You won't have enough sales in January to break even with just one person in the store. 

I added the photo t-shirts to the mix because it didn't require a lot of equipment capital. I put one system in place to produce the sales from 2 stores. I put the equipment in my home office so I could do the production after hours and didn't have to add more staff or office rent.

I have thought about adding a mall location. That person would have to well trained. You can't take a body and fill that position. Most malls kill you on 4 or 6 month kiosk leases. No one is buying until the week before Thanksgiving. I already have the machines running 16 hours a day. I could hire a few people to sew from midnight to 6 am. (If they know how to sew and are good at it , they have a day job.)

Sorry, long post. More to say on the topic. Can you tell I just went through another Christmas?


----------



## vctradingcubao

*Re: Tell me about it ....*

Point taken. I guess there are some little differences in our business set-up and of course in the way you do things in the US and here in my country.

We have a wholesale/retail store in a mall, we sell fabrics, threads, sewing notions (buttons, zippers), materials needed by tailors, modiste and garment sewers, manufacturers. When I added a single head embroidery machine, my thinking is to just add a complimentary service to the customers we already have. Not sure then if i'll have enough embroidery work to keep the machine busy for the whole mall hours. My plan then is to do special patches when there's no order. Patches that you can sell retail in the store.

After a few months, new customers came in wanting embro service on their stuff, so that the there's no more idle time for the machine, and no time to do the patches, which also became a good sell. Waiting time for the customers went up from 3 days to 1 to 2 weeks, but they wait, guess because there's not much alternative yet. The thing went from just an "add-on" service to a "separate business" for us.

To make the long story short, we now have a 20 head, two 6-head, and a 4-head machine at home/off site. We now do our digitizing in house, and have also added a laser cutting/engraving machine to do appliques, and other cut/engraved items to be sold at the store. The volume customers are still waiting, but we're able to cut the wait time to 3 to 7 days, (still bad service in my opininon). As for the special patches, we're still unable to do it on a regular basis, and now I just added another 1-head machine to do the patches. I'm now planning to add heat transfer and hope to get the same "problems" in my embroidery work. BTW, we operate only at daytime, on-site and off-site. Also, during the christmas, we are able to price our service higher, law of supply & demand works here.

Of course, I also do get your real problems; staff training, mistake on garments, high cost of equipment (procurement & maintenance). As for the corporate customers with unique names on each jacket, I'd do the common designs on the multi-head and do the unique names on the single head, cuts some production time, but charged differently (higher) because each jacket is "unique".


----------



## John S

*Re: Tell me about it ....*

Good for you Byron. You have the right kind of problems!

I have McDonalds resturants 20 feet from my stores. People are conditioned here that you get your food in 120 seconds or less. Many come into my shops and say "Now do I wait for it or should I come back in an hour?" I even here this at Christmas when I have 4 people climbing over each other trying to keep 2 single heads running and taking orders from a crowd of customers. 

I also have several embroidery shops with in a few minutes of my store plus all the women who buy a home embroidery machine and print up signs for business. They stick their signs on the entry way of my parking lot, trying to snag some of my customers. I you don't take care of the customers, someone else will!

Isn't business fun!!

Good to hear your story, good luck growing your business.


----------



## T-BOT

*Re: Tell me about it ....*

btw. I really appreciate the fact you 2 emb. heads  jk are taking the time to give this Emb. forum some activity and most importantly sharing your day to day biz stuff. That means a lot to me since im trying to learn how you people inside the Emb. biz are working it. 

Thanks a lot.  ... and wish you guys the best. Anything I can do for you (like leases, franchise info etc.), let me know.


----------



## dzine

*Re: Tell me about it ....*

Hi John...I actually refer emb customers with onsie type orders to the franchise local to me that you are involved with. I think the owners are great people...and I just tend to think that there's enough biz to go around. I'd probably shake down any home machine embroiders trying to steal their business in the parking lot! That's crazy. I'm actually a fellow emb biz owner that would defend YOUR store! 

I know very personally the brother & one-time salesman of the H-T group. I've never asked him---but are you required to charge pricing set by corporate? $3 for a left chest logo that takes 10 mins to sew out seems really low! That's got to be around 10000 stitches, right? The only reason I ask, is that some of the customers I referred to the local store have told me what they were charged, and even though I never comment on the amount to them, sometimes it actually seems high to me. I think the hard part about having that franchise within the other store is that you don't always profit on the garments if the customer is bringing in items from the store itself. 

(For others, many of the items we embroider have a higher profit margins when we take them from wholesale to retail pricing)

Yet along with EmbroidMe, the emb franchises are really growing. I personally do not feel that is threatening to my business. Do you do marketing towards local businesses? I have some great ideas if you'd like me to share with you. I can see how the onsie-twosie orders can get tedious & demanding. The corporate & local businesses are the money makers, so maybe you should go out & pursue them more? I think the clearest benefit there is that you can get them to order apparel from your store, since the chances of them getting the amounts or special items they need from the "other" store are not as good. I know many who charge minimums on customer supplied goods, beyond the thread count. I just don't know how far you are held to the corporate structured pricing. I think the "cherry pickers" as we call them (those that expect cheap prices on cheap goods) who come into your store would frustrate the heck out of me! I feel for you! But the best of luck to you! 

I also know a few people who do rent kiosks at the malls around the holidays, but they also continue that type of revenue after the holidays setting up at trade shows & special events, which start brewing mid-January. Some travel quite extensively & make quite a good living at it. They do spruce up their marketing efforts in accordance to what type of show or event it is. (like camo hats & gear for sportsman shows) And even when the pricing of booths go up & up each year, they continue to do well, even if the other vendors do not. I think people just love hand-chosen or personalized items! Tshirts are big for heat press, and caps for embroidery. Those that do dye sub do really well too, adding mugs, plaques, golfballs, etc. One person I know staffs a year-round full timer who he sends to do the tradeshows. He also gives him a commission, which he feels keeps his worker motivated to keep sales up. This is really smart, as he stays home to work his corporate & business embroidery clients. He says that if he didn't spend years on the road himself, it may not go as well as it does, yet he does pick up many leads from the shows as well. His business never hits a lull! 

There are so many facets to garment decorating....some who chose niche markets do really well if they pursue them properly. Sometimes it takes being clever, sometimes just being lucky. But mostly, I feel it requires keeping an open mind towards new opportunities & the willingness to take a risk once in a while.


----------



## John S

*Re: Tell me about it ....*



dzine said:


> but are you required to charge pricing set by corporate? $3 for a left chest logo that takes 10 mins to sew out seems really low!


We set our own pricing. $3 is if you are doing 144 pieces. It's $10 if you do one piece. 



dzine said:


> ..you don't always profit on the garments if the customer is bringing in items from the store itself.


About 2/3rds of our embroidery sales are on outside garments. I have no shipping, overhead, old stock. It's really not a bad way to keep the machines running. Little orders sometimes lead to big orders.



dzine said:


> Yet along with EmbroidMe, the emb franchises are really growing.


I have about 3 EmbroidMe's in my area, 2 of them are for sale. There are 4 of my flavor in Atlanta, 1 is for sale.



dzine said:


> Do you do marketing towards local businesses? I have some great ideas if you'd like me to share with you.


I do, but can always use good ideas!



dzine said:


> I can see how the onsie-twosie orders can get tedious & demanding. The corporate & local businesses are the money makers, so maybe you should go out & pursue them more?


I'm not convinced that the 'big' sales are the only way to go. When a customer places a large order with my garments, I have very low markup's. I think the key is to have cake AND ice cream. 



dzine said:


> But mostly, I feel it requires keeping an open mind towards new opportunities & the willingness to take a risk once in a while.


You got that right. It is hard to learn the 'right' lessons and stick with them while being open to change.


----------



## dzine

*Re: Tell me about it ....*



John S said:


> We set our own pricing. $3 is if you are doing 144 pieces. It's $10 if you do one piece.


Gosh John, those prices still seem really low! I'd give 'em a break on the garments, but not that low on the emb! The high volume decorators charge those prices, but they have many multiheads...and then it's hard to keep the quality control that I'm sure you are great at, as well, they also make customers pay for an overage of 3-5% in case there are mistakes. I've dealt with a few customers that have gone to volume decorators, and they have been willing to pay more for a better job. 




John S said:


> About 2/3rds of our embroidery sales are on outside garments. I have no shipping, overhead, old stock. It's really not a bad way to keep the machines running. Little orders sometimes lead to big orders.


I'm sure you do very well!



John S said:


> I have about 3 EmbroidMe's in my area, 2 of them are for sale. There are 4 of my flavor in Atlanta, 1 is for sale.


That's definitely why you will continue to do well! I think folks that get into embroidery who are totally new to are very surprised at the complexity of it. But then again, many businesses fail...so I'm sure there are many reasons.



John S said:


> I do, but can always use good ideas!


I spent years in marketing, and actually used to sell advertising. I think that doing mass mailers is fine if you've got a lot of capitol, but I prefer ordering custom postcards (cheap, from VistaPrint...com) and targeting certain businesses per mailing. Like one week, or month, I will hit just restaurants, then gyms, etc...the ones I would think could use embroidery services. The small businesses seem like the gravy, as they tend to order higher end gear, and there too, usually don't order in big amounts so you don't feel obligated to discount as much. 



John S said:


> I'm not convinced that the 'big' sales are the only way to go. When a customer places a large order with my garments, I have very low markup's. I think the key is to have cake AND ice cream.
> 
> You got that right. It is hard to learn the 'right' lessons and stick with them while being open to change.


I hope so!


----------



## John S

*Re: Tell me about it ....*



dzine said:


> Gosh John, those prices still seem really low! I'd give 'em a break on the garments, but not that low on the emb!


(Try tellling that to some of my customers  )

I am charging more than some of my market. 
I have a contractor w/ multiple 6 head machines. He charges me a little less which gives me a little room to send things out when I get backed up.



dzine said:


> ... I prefer ordering custom postcards (cheap, from VistaPrint...com) and targeting certain businesses per mailing.


I was working on that very plan last year at this time. Then I got side tracked from a few outside sources that kept me from making it happen. Thanks for the wakeup call!

Have you heard the Brain Brew program on NPR? They are big on direct mail postcards. The website is .... http://www.800brainbrew.com/


----------



## vctradingcubao

IMHO, If it's possible to get a 4 por 6 head, it could be a great help, so that you'll have the whole pie and not share it with your contractor, especially during your peak seasons(you said the work doubles, & doubles, & doubles). The key is to think of some products you could sew during the non-peak season and offer to some other market in your areas, for example, school patches, patches for the skateboard fans, pillows with generic designs (great on valentine), etc. If you needed to subcontract at some point, then getting an additional machine (set-up off-site) is justified.

Do you do digitizing in-house? If so, a good marketing plan is to digitize the logos of the small businesses in your area, sew a sample on a shirt, a cap, or just make a patch (with double adhesive, so that they could just iron/heat press it to their garment), and send it along with your postcard. They'll love it and will definitely not go anywhere else because only you have their design.

Just my two cents worth here. But I'm sure you're doing fine, if not great. You're just being modest about it.


----------



## vctradingcubao

p.s., looking at it in a different way, the high price of the industrial machine (& software) could be an advantage for us because it becomes difficult for a newcomer to just enter the embroidery business. But for those of us already inside, we already know that it works, that's why we have more than 1 single head machine. You already know that it works, that's why you have more than 1 shop, plus your home office. Adding heat transfer service is a great idea, and I'm also working on that. We should take advantage of the "economies of scale", before the "law of diminishing returns" steps in.


----------



## dzine

Byron---you're right about the price of industrial machines...but I also know a woman who has a home emb machine that cost nearly 10,000! ONE NEEDLE! She doesn't do corp work, mostly work for other quilters, but I asked her why she didn't at least look at the Brother multi-needle machine, and she said it seemed too intimidating! Hm...but then again, not many folks realize that we can't sew a zipper on our machines either!

Thanks for the BrainBrew link John...as if my brain needs to brew anymore! Ha. 
I actually have a store like yours about 3 miles from me & I don't consider them competition, but then again, I think I fly under the radar to a lot of my competition...and much of my business comes from word of mouth. I believe my pricing must be competitive, but I really don't question it...I just go by the norm or what seems fair to me. I'm sure I could be making more money too! I've found myself doing a lot of competing against some of the big uniform companies lately, and easily outbid them...they are usually the ones who scare the bejeebs out of customers because of thread counts or color changes. As if we don't jump up & down when a customers logo is as simple as red & blue, and they are not picky about Pantone colors! One thing I try to tell them is that basically, we get the same case pricing as the big boys, yet where they discount by volume, we can discount at the same price level on 10 pcs or 100. The only reason that came up recently though, is in bidding on a client w/ a large order...100 coats, 100 hoodies, 500 golf shirts. He is used to getting price breaks on large quantities only, so I told him that if he hires on a new guy, I will extend him the same prices for 5 of each item, just the same as his initial order. He also said he could go with a one-color logo, when the original had only 3, to save money. I could understand color changes, possibly if it was metallic gold, fushia & seagreen...but red, white & blue? It kind of exposes the uniform company, but if they cared to get his business, he would have heard from them at least once since his last order in August 05! All's fair, right? 

So I guess when it comes down to it, if your product is great, your service is great and your attitude towards your customers are great, then basically you get the business because of who YOU are. Maybe it is my area (Cleveland, OH) but I find it easy to compete with others pricing...and in most cases, I think others are high. I would never outbid someone & cut my own throat to give dirt cheap prices though. Actually, those that do just lessen the professionalism of our business, if you ask me. 

So good luck to both of you!


----------



## T-BOT

dzine said:


> I actually have a store like yours about 3 miles from me & I don't consider them competition, but then again, I think I fly under the radar to a lot of my competition...and much of my business comes from word of mouth!


is word of mouth enough for a full time emb. biz ? 

....full time meaning at least $ 100k/yr. in sales revenue.


----------



## dzine

Ugh. What a thorn.


----------



## T-BOT

well, i can speak for the Transfer/Screen Print Biz and word of mouth sure has brought jobs well over 100k/yr. Not big/qty jobs but specialized ones. 

These jobs are for the Advetising/Marketing and Branding firms. 
Im sure that emb. is also something that can be a specialized type thing and when the big budgets come looking they may prefer word of mouth i would think. 
Is is not the case in any trade ? .... emb. Included ?


----------



## vctradingcubao

Yep, 100K and above a year is very much possible in the emb. business, but you really need multi-head machines off-site so that so that you could operate 24/7 if you want. If you're in a mall, you could only operate your machines during mall hours. You need the mall though to show the stuffs that you can do, and therefore generate "word of mouth" advertising. So far we're not doing any paid advertising, only "word of mouth".

I imagine this is also possible in the heat transfer industry, showing and doing small qty orders in the mall, and doing the volume orders off-site (specially with the help of the new "auto-open" heat press, (3 heat presses & more than 1 printer)). Then, if you get orders with less than 4 or 5 colors, you can suggest screen printing, or plastisol transfers to your customer, outsourced of course.


----------



## John S

T-BOT said:


> well, i can speak for the Transfer/Screen Print Biz and word of mouth sure has brought jobs...


I like the people that show up and say "I'm here because X sent me..."

I am amazed at how far someone will travel to do business with you because of a referal. (Most of my business is within a 10-15 minute drive of the store).


----------



## T-BOT

John S said:


> I like the people that show up and say "I'm here because X sent me..."
> 
> I am amazed at how far someone will travel to do business with you because of a referal. (Most of my business is within a 10-15 minute drive of the store).


you know John, 
Talk about word of mouth.
One time a Lady (newspaper journalist) came into one of our retail stores on College street ( a real food/chef/restaurant known area), she was there to do a story on a restaurant. 
Anyway, she spent 20 minutes in the store, looked around etc....

A few weeks later, the fashion editor for this MEGA national news paper decided to do a story on the custom thing, guess what, the lady told her about our store so we got included in a 2 page full article written by the "Fashion Editor". 

That little word of mouth turned into a big bost. 

I know i come across as the "Queen of Mean" (great book btw.  ) sometimes or some may feel im bragging, but its the truth. Word of mouth pays off big time. 

People in high places really appreciate sincere humble peeps. Why ? because most of them started with nothing like you and I. So, they know all about it. 

I honestly believe that the emb. biz is not different from any other custom trade. When you make something from nothing is a special thing that is in a class of its own and you will get noticed for what you make. So give them something to talk about and it will grow. 

Who knows, may be the next trend around the corner could be started by an emb. guy/gal in a mall that made one little job for 1 Customer. Is this not possible ? ....


----------



## John S

T-BOT said:


> When you make something from nothing is a special thing that is in a class of its own and you will get noticed for what you make. So give them something to talk about and it will grow.
> 
> Who knows, may be the next trend around the corner could be started by an emb. guy/gal in a mall that made one little job for 1 Customer. Is this not possible ? ....


Have you read Purple Cow by Seth Godin? 

I have it in que for a second read, it's that good.


----------



## T-BOT

John S said:


> Have you read Purple Cow by Seth Godin?
> 
> I have it in que for a second read, it's that good.



 lol .... Im sold on it.

"Obviously, this approach is applicable to just about any idea-based product, whether it's consulting or clothes. Find the core market. Discover their otaku. Make it easy to sample. Make it easy to share. Hope that it hits critical mass."


----------



## Rodney

> is word of mouth enough for a full time emb. biz ?


Sure it is. With the right word of mouth and service to back it up, you can get sales in just about any business. With the right words and the right sales, 100K could come pretty quickly


----------



## MotoskinGraphix

I would rather hear experiences from actual emb. players and not some folks who are wondering whats happening. I dont mean to rain on the parade but what exactly is happening in the emb. world?


----------



## John S

MotoskinGraphix said:


> I would rather hear experiences from actual emb. players and not some folks who are wondering whats happening. I dont mean to rain on the parade but what exactly is happening in the emb. world?


I have 2 retail locations with 2 Tajima 1501 in each store. Been at it 4 years.

What do you want to know?


----------



## MotoskinGraphix

locations and honest numbers!!!


----------



## John S

Send me a PM with your sales figures (rounded) and I will reply with mine.

I don't want to hang my laundry out on a public forum.


----------



## MotoskinGraphix

No secrets here...we share and share alike which is what makes all of us sane and in the same difference. I dont do emb. but am interested just like you dont do vinyl or heatpress but are interested!!!! Simple trade of info..no problem no foul!


----------



## John S

MotoskinGraphix said:


> No secrets here...we share and share alike which is what makes all of us sane and in the same difference. I dont do emb. but am interested just like you dont do vinyl or heatpress but are interested!!!! Simple trade of info..no problem no foul!


I do vinyl and heat press, that's what brought me to the forums. 

I'll be happy to answer your questions about embroidery.


----------



## T-BOT

MotoskinGraphix said:


> I would rather hear experiences from actual emb. players and *not some folks who are wondering whats happening*. I dont mean to rain on the parade but *what exactly is happening in the emb. world*?


Hello David, i think you are wondering what is happening too.


----------



## dzine

T-BOT said:


> Hello David, i think you are wondering what is happening too.


No, I think David is just trying to get the thread back on track once again. 
Thanks David. 

I can't speak for actual numbers on embroidery alone because my business is not solely based on embroidery. Embroidery is where I began my business, but it continues to grow in other directions, which is where I wanted to take it from the start. As in many upstarts, I focused on corporate & business accounts, thus why I can speak from that frame of mind, and such clients do account for much of my business still. There is a tremendous amount of viable income available in the embroidery industry, no matter if one tries to hit a niche market or sticks with the commercial side. That's the true beauty of it--there's no limit as to what you can do or for whom, and I've known many to hit a niche from a single word-of-mouth client. 

$100K is an attainable target to reach when you do your research & focus your marketing efforts accordingly. There's a pretty decent learning curve, especially in undertaking the digitizing inhouse, but in my personal opinion, it's worth it. Though digitizing is not an overnight learning process by any means, there is a decent living in that end of it as well. And then there are those who create stock designs, and those that specialize in certain ones with great skill. As with any creative thing that any of us does in life, sometimes our skills take on a life of their own. And diversity is the best way that each of us can assure continued success in our endeavors.

....And the reason why we mingle here.


----------



## Rodney

> No secrets here...we share and share alike which is what makes all of us sane and in the same difference.


Actually, sales figures can be seen as a "secret". I don't expect anybody to post their sales numbers in a public forum. 



> No, I think David is just trying to get the thread back on track once again. Thanks David.


There seems to be a lot of tracks in this thread , but it is very enlightening. Thanks to all who are sharing their experiences. I look forward to reading more.


----------



## T-BOT

hey guys, how about selling pre-made emb. patches ? perhaps even licensed rock stuff etc....top sellers at retail level. 

They would not take up too much sqf. (for rent sake) to display and sell and would generate extra sales revenue, add-on sales etc. Is this being done or not ?


----------



## John S

T-BOT said:


> hey guys, how about selling pre-made emb. patches ? perhaps even licensed rock stuff etc....top sellers at retail level.
> 
> They would not take up too much sqf. (for rent sake) to display and sell and would generate extra sales revenue, add-on sales etc. Is this being done or not ?


I've done a few patches in-house and a few large jobs via a contractor. 
In-house doesn't pay well because of the extra labor and material required to produce. It is much faster to hoop a garment and sew it. When someone asks about patches, they are often looking for one patch with a custom shape and design. They faint when I add up the cost.

I don't see a lot of my customers wearing patches, I don't think stock patches would be a hot seller in my locations. If I did flea markets and biker events, patches would be a no-brainer.
I do sew biker vests. I put the lettering between the rows of patches and pins.


----------



## vctradingcubao

As i've mentioned on my previous posts, patches are a life saver for us. It's what brought us to embroidery in the first place. During the lean months when there's not much custom orders, we do patches. It's even possible to operate 24/6 (or 24/5, or 12/7) for the whole year because we have many designs specially made for patches.

They are 
1.easier (we just use our border frames and set the machine to do repetitions),
2. cheaper (we could use the 20 or 6 or 4 heads,and scrap fabrics) and 
3. safer (there's no chance of destroying a customer garment because you're not using any)
for us to produce.

Some bestsellers are: sports patches (basketball, baseball, football), racing patches (car, motorbike, cycling), Extreme sports (skateboard, etc.), Hobby (hunting, fishing, guns), Rock/band patches, girly design patches (flowers,etc), police, military, and EMS patches; and some nearby school & company patches.

We could make the patches "iron ready" by using double adhesive sheets. We put them on individual plastic packaging and into desktop racks. The sports shops, bike shops, gun shops, car accessories stores, music records stores could have their own desktop rack (on consignment if needed) with their "industry specific" patches.

IMHO, to be able to do this efficiently, an embroiderer should have multihead machines off-site, and have his own digitizing software.


----------



## Solmu

vctradingcubao said:


> IMHO, to be able to do this efficiently, an embroiderer should have multihead machines off-site, and have his own digitizing software.


To be blunt it also helps if they can ignore intellectual property law. Some generic patches are going to do well, but I'm guessing the majority of the sports patches, band patches, etc. would need to be specific to sell, and so would be illegal in the US (or Australia, or England, or Canada).


----------



## vctradingcubao

Yes, this could and should be done using only generic designs. For those designs that are covered by IP rights, of course, they should be licensed (as stated by Lucy). The US, Australia, England and Canada aren't the only countries who follows and respect the Intellectual property rights of individuals and companies.

You could get ideas for the generic designs from magazines, advertisements, etc. Common sense will dictate you on what designs are OK to use and need not be licensed.


----------



## Solmu

vctradingcubao said:


> For those designs that are covered by IP rights, of course, they should be licensed (as stated by Lucy).


The only problem being those can be impossible or extremely expensive to obtain (which doesn't mean it's not worth trying). 



vctradingcubao said:


> The US, Australia, England and Canada aren't the only countries who follows and respect the Intellectual property rights of individuals and companies.


Yeah, it wasn't really meant to be an exhaustive list 



vctradingcubao said:


> You could get ideas for the generic designs from magazines, advertisements, etc. Common sense will dictate you on what designs are OK to use and need not be licensed.


So it sounds like you've also had more success than I might have supposed with non-licensed stuff? People don't just want official logos, etc. as I perhaps incorrectly assumed?


----------



## vctradingcubao

Solmu said:


> The only problem being those can be impossible or extremely expensive to obtain (which doesn't mean it's not worth trying).
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, it wasn't really meant to be an exhaustive list
> 
> 
> 
> So it sounds like you've also had more success than I might have supposed with non-licensed stuff? People don't just want official logos, etc. as I perhaps incorrectly assumed?


I'll just stop and let you have the last say on this one. You're the one with the BLACK SHIRT and the title anyway.


----------



## Solmu

vctradingcubao said:


> I'll just stop and let you have the last say on this one. You're the one with the BLACK SHIRT and the title anyway.


Sorry, I'm not trying to have the last say. It sounds like I made a few incorrect assumptions that I shouldn't have, so I was trying to clear the air.


----------



## gmille39

*Re: Tell me about it ....*



T-BOT said:


> I understand what you are saying David. I was speaking more about "Custom" type biz not off the shelf ready made stuff.
> 
> In Mall Lease Agreements there is a very important part that is under " Terms and Conditions of Use ". This is where what you can and can not sell etc. is spelled out and agreed upon by you and the Landlord.
> 
> An example where this may occur would be if there is anothe retailer that also makes "custom" shirts for example, where it is in their lease agreement that no other retailer would be allowed to make bulk orders off site (the mall kiosk etc.).
> 
> But yes, for the month of December its a good idea to go into malls and set up a cart or something. High rents but with the right product money can be made.


I did my business plan on starting an embroidery business, then adding the screenprinting and heat press. When my wife realized the cost of the machine, we went the other way. A market report I purchased, and could probably send to you, stated that most of your business will come from 1. local businesses for corporate logo wear, etc. 2. Schools and organizations. I was planning on going after the corporate logowear, school/booster type wear and golf courses for their embroidered shirts, hats, and towels. I don't want to do any retail. Another good way to go is to get solely involved with the Promotional Products Distributors. Most outsource the embroidery. I read an article where a lady did needlepoint and other crafts for fun, then got into embroidery when friends kept asking for certain things. She now only sells to PPD's, has a big building, many heads, and does a couple million a year in sales to only PPD's.


----------



## Rodney

> You're the one with the BLACK SHIRT and the title anyway.


we're all equal here  Black shirts, white shirts, brown shirts...we can all get along


----------



## gmille39

Rodney said:


> we're all equal here  Black shirts, white shirts, brown shirts...we can all get along


Yep. when I mix all my tees in the drawer I never hear a peep out of them. You would think that since blue is my favorite color, all the other colors would get jealous but nope, they don't.


----------



## dzine

Solmu said:


> The only problem being those can be impossible or extremely expensive to obtain (which doesn't mean it's not worth trying).
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, it wasn't really meant to be an exhaustive list
> 
> 
> 
> So it sounds like you've also had more success than I might have supposed with non-licensed stuff? People don't just want official logos, etc. as I perhaps incorrectly assumed?


For whatever exact reason (? ), the copyright police are quite the heavies with embroidered logos. We've heard many horror stories, even about a well-known ice cream business going after not only it's own (one) franchise owner, but the embroiderer as well for not getting permission to reproduce the logo on their store shirts! I upped my insurance premiums just to protect myself against such situations where the business owner says it's ok to digitize a logo, when really it isn't without permission first. 

The also went after many Ebayers who were reproducing & selling licensed designs (such as Disney, Betty Boop. etc), or selling them on clothing. 

I've heard one of the most heavily protectant of their logo is Harley Davidson...and when you think of how much revenue they get from their merchandise, it's certainly understandable! 

...you know what I mean John??? After I read your post about doing motorcycle jackets, it reminded me of a guy who kept hounding me, and hounding me, and hounding me to get the HD logo digitized for whatever it would cost just so he could dress up the leather jackets he already had before he became a "Harley" man. It was tragic. I think belonged more on a big yellow bus, if you know what I mean. LOL

But I do know a few other embroiderers that do acquire licensing from local colleges, and that is not too high of a fee, and it brings them great business. The only downside is that some colleges require a higher liability amount on your business insurance. 

So I guess licensing all depends on the potential business it could bring.


----------



## Solmu

dzine said:


> For whatever exact reason (? ), the copyright police are quite the heavies with embroidered logos.


Maybe there's a good payment recovery rate? (i.e. if they sue and win, they actually get paid?)


----------



## John S

It is a challenge to stay on the right side of the law with licensed products (LPs). 
We sell LPs that some one else produced lawfully, we just add a name to personalize. 
Many customers come in and want to put College X on a garment. Then they ask about just putting just the name of the school on a polo, then they want to add a generic paw print above the name. Highschools often use logos that are LP identical with different colors. 
We have several local business that are using a 'look and feel' knock off of college logos. It's already on their signs, trucks and business cards. They come in and want to do a corporate package of shirts.


----------



## vctradingcubao

My apologies Sir Lewis. The question marks on your sentences made me misinterpret it. Anyway, you are correct and have good points on your posts 99.9% of the time, the way you say and write them sometimes is the problem. But we already have Super Rodney, so we also need a Solmu to add flavor and complete the mix.


----------



## custom tshirts

I have done ok but only because i have been able to find a company off shore to do the digitizing cheap. That gives me the ability to do small quantities without a big set up. It has been a good selling point.


----------



## vonemb

I am an embroiderer. I have been doing embroidery for 7 years. For the first 4 years I worked out of my home and I also had a full time job. Three years ago we opened a retail store. We have over a 1000 sq feet of retail space. We do alot of single piece jobs for walk-in customers, and we do alot for local businesses including small & large businesses. Last year we bought a vinyl cutter to cut the thermoflex for garments and that has really taken off. At the end of last year we added a screenprint system. Embroidery is still our #1 source of income. About 65% of the orders we receive is for embroidery. We do our own digitizing so that helps. We only have the one head at this time (which I have been trained in the maintenance of it, so it runs like when I first bought it  ), so there is long hours specially at christmas. usually at christmas I can make 1000 - 1500/week, but the downside is I dont get any sleep. Usually the week of Christmas is the worst. Everyone has waited till the last minute, so we have to charge a rush fee, and there is no discount on there quantities. During this week there is no sleep at all. I usually dont get any sleep for 4 - 5 days before Christmas. It is hard, but worth it. We dont have employees. It is just me, and my two kids that are 13 & 10. MY husband works full time. The kids are out at christmas for break so they are really great helpers. We are trying to keep this business in the family.


----------



## vctradingcubao

That's a nice set-up vonemb. Ever thought of adding a 4 head machine?


----------



## vonemb

We would love a four head or another single head, but we buy a piece of equipment and pay it off one at a time. That way we dont have to worry with too many payments, but we hope to add another head here in the next year.


----------



## vctradingcubao

Well, if the demand is there, and you have the market, WHY WAIT?


----------



## MLchanged

T-BOT said:


> Anyone making good money with emb. these days ?
> What makes emb. biz click in 2006/07 ?


Embroidery can make you ALOT of money - just depends on how you advertise. I suggest buying a used singlehead machine, that way, if you don't think embroidery is for you, you have not wasted a ton of money! They are small, but produce commercial quality work. I have a couple for sale, if you are interested, let me know - I can give you a good deal. (just email me!)

SUGGESTION - if you can get some hats or t-shirts at wholesale prices, go ahead and go around to local businesses and collect their business cards. Then, take their logo from the card, scan into your computer, digitize, and put it on a hat/t-shirt. Deliver it, free of charge. Bets are, they will order more for the others that work there! And if not, they will at least tell people who did the work! I got that idea from a customer of mine, and it works great!!

Good Luck either way!!


----------



## chluo

You can start your embroidery business with 1 set of embroidery machine and then buy more. If you couldn't do the embroidery digitizing work yourself, outsource it.


Linda


----------

