# Copyrights and/or Trademarks?



## BEHG (Dec 1, 2009)

So, like everyone else and their mother, I am trying to start a clothing line. I had a logo professionaly designed and am working on getting my site put together as well. My concern is having some of my ideas stolen or used without permission. Mainly my logo and what it means. An example of what I am talking about would be something like: 

IDEA: Individuals Doing Everything Allowed 
(not my company, just created an example out of thin air)

Is this a trademark issue or a copyright issue? I am very ignorant to the legal aspects involved here so any insight would be greatly appreciated. 

Thank you


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## kimura-mma (Jul 26, 2008)

Copyrights are for works of art, designs, etc. Trademarks are for logos, brand names, etc. So I'd say you would be looking to trademark your logo. If you are creating an acronym, I would suggest contacting an attorney to understand if you are protecting the actual acronym and its meaning or just your logo.

Just keep in mind that registering your logo doesn't automatically prevent anyone from stealing and using it. It will be up to you to protect the mark by sending cease and desist letters and/or suing those who infringe on your mark.


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## BEHG (Dec 1, 2009)

I guess my issue is, it's both an acronym, it's meaning, and a graphic all comprised in my logo... What would give me protection for all of that? or would I need both a C and TM? 

For a mere example: 







What would be copywritten or trademarked? and would one or the other cover everything? Let's add that the eagle said USPS in it's eye or something to throw the acronym in there too.


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## kimura-mma (Jul 26, 2008)

BEHG said:


> I guess my issue is, it's both an acronym, it's meaning, and a graphic all comprised in my logo... What would give me protection for all of that?


Sorry, I'm not really sure if trademark protection would cover both elements. I think your best bet is to consult an attorney.



BEHG said:


> or would I need both a C and TM?


You definitely don't need a © since copyright doesn't apply here. A ™ can be used even without registration, it is just an indicator that you claim ownership. A ® is what you will get when federally registered.



BEHG said:


> What would be copywritten or trademarked? and would one or the other cover everything? Let's add that the eagle said USPS in it's eye or something to through the acronym in there too.


Since copyright doesn't apply, I believe trademarking is the way to go. But only an attorney can tell you if trademarking will protect both the logo and the acronym and its meaning.


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## BEHG (Dec 1, 2009)

figures... lol (that I need to consult an attorney I mean) 

just like yesterday, thank you again for your help.


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## kimura-mma (Jul 26, 2008)

No prob. After thinking about it for a few more minutes, the original example of IDEA is a bit different than the second example of USPS. For USPS, they would trademark both the full name and the acronym. But the IDEA example is different because its more of an original acronym as opposed to just being an abbreviation of the full brand name. So if your brand is closer to the USPS example, you would trademark both the full and abbreviated versions. But if your brand is closer to the IDEA example, then you should contact an attorney to understand how to fully protect it since it is an original concept. Hope this makes sense.


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## PositiveDave (Dec 1, 2008)

Unless you can afford to protect your trademark/copyright in a court then there isn't much protection.
If you do go to court, even if you win it's difficult to collect from a small company, they vanish and reappear with a similar name.


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## BEHG (Dec 1, 2009)

So are you saying it would be a waste of money?


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## kimura-mma (Jul 26, 2008)

If you can easily afford to trademark, go ahead and do it. But if you are on a limited budget, there are more important areas to spend your money on, like marketing and production. So don't sacrifice those important areas just to spend money on legal if you are just starting out.


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## PositiveDave (Dec 1, 2008)

The man said it! 
It's low priority for most real life scenarios.


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## Nikelover (Nov 6, 2009)

BEHG said:


> So are you saying it would be a waste of money?



maybe its a waste of money, coz even if you win in small companies its still hard to get any amount from them they will just close and re operate in the matter of time.


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## hostingdiva (Mar 31, 2006)

Ninety percent of new businesses fail within the first year. Spend the money you would spend on an attorney and the trademarking process to make sure you don't fail within the first year. Then, come back to this issue in the second year


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## Austin300 (May 24, 2009)

Here is my opinion on it and it's worth about 2 cents.


If you have a service mark or trademark that is
new and unique and you feel deep down inside 
that it is going to be the anchor for your business
and it's identity then I strongly suggest
that you take the time to get the federal 
trademark or service mark.

The fee may be high to some but if you are
truly in this for the long haul then you should
build your foundation with strong walls. Your
business name is everything and to have it
protected will give you a sense of pride like
owning land for the first time.



You can file for a federal trademark yourself and
it costs $375 dollars. You don't need an attorney
but some strongly suggest it.

The terminology used in the electronic form that
you file may be confusing to some and there is
about a 4 to 5 page application that you fill out.

If you do a search on the trademark database 
you will see the product description. Clothing
is one separate class and you will pay for
each additional classification that you add.

If you have sporting goods, leather good & clothing
then you will have a fee added for each line of 
goods.

It takes about 3 to 6 months for the trademark
attorney to look over your application and you
need to stay on top of this. They will review it
and decide if the mark can be trademarked and
give you suggestions on your application but
they are by no means going to stay on top of
your application and quickly move on to the next.

You need to stay in contact with them and
ask questions if anything isn't understood.

If they decide that your mark can't be given
a federal trademark for one reason or another then
you are given the opportunity to have it registered
on the Supplemental Register.

This will allow you to use the (R) registered trademark
logo and offers more protection than a simple TM.


A federal trademark or service mark allows greater
protection and gives warning to all that the mark
is protected. You are also given protection when
it comes to people duplicating your mark overseas
and trying to import copies of your work.


The question I think everyone needs to ask themselves
is the idea or mark you have so unique that
you want to protect it from the beginning.

I thought long and hard about the service mark
that I discovered was not being used and it was
unique. I kept the idea in a small circle of friends
and they were all shocked that the mark wasn't
being used at the time.

Was the service mark that important to me to
go over numerous trademark pages to learn how
to file the form, pay the $375 dollars, go back
and forth with the attorney and stay on top
of it after thinking it would be declined?

You bet your wallet it was worth it to me.



I filed my application in April of 09 and after
numerous emails back and forth and finally
a call to the attorneys "boss" I was given the
proper terminology they requested for my app.
and it was completed and approved at the
end of November 09.


If you go through an attorney then you can
expect to pay well over $1000 dollars for their
assistance and that does not include the filing
fee.




--------------------

This is from the Trademark office. If you search Cabelas you will find out
what the description looks like. Its pretty much that simple.






*Word Mark **CABELA*'S*Goods and Services*IC 016. US 002 005 022 023 029 037 038 050. G & S: printed matter, namely, catalogs. FIRST USE: 19910701. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19910701 IC 025. US 022 039. 

G & S: clothing, namely, parkas, coats, jackets, shirts, hats, vests, rainwear, and coveralls (regular and camouflage). FIRST USE: 19940601. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19940601 IC 035. US 100 101 102. G & S: retail store services and mail order services in supplying sporting and related goods, namely, clothing, metal goods, hand tools, firearms, camping, archery and fishing goods, leather goods, paper goods and printed matter, glassware, clocks and foods. 


FIRST USE: 19910701. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19910701


----------------------------------------


Unlike many U.S. Govt. offices I can say that the Trademark office 
answers the phone and will help you with any questions. I had
a numerous questions and the people that I spoke with helped
me more than the attorney did. They can pull up your file and 
review it and give you more information that you can add to
your application.


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## Nancy G (Mar 14, 2010)

Curious what you ended up doing? I am doing same thing- an acronym like your "IDEA". Don't know if I should sell a few first to see if they are saleable, then go for a copyright or trademark..
thanks.


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## kimura-mma (Jul 26, 2008)

Registering your trademark won't add any value to your brand. It just gives you a legal leg to stand on if you catch someone knocking off your brand. So unless you are prepared to start filing lawsuits, you are better off spending your money on other areas of your startup. If you can easily afford to register, then go ahead. But if you are on a budget, spend on production and marketing instead. And register your trademark when you can afford to.


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## EnergyJenny (Mar 5, 2010)

I work with bands and our over priced lawyer said it doesn't matter what you do whom ever is first to commerce is the winner of the name, so if you want to use something ( I am going to use a funny example) Like wwf. Which was used by both wrestling and the world wildlife fund. Wildlife was to help endangered animals and Wrestling sued them for the use of the WWF logo, well the animals had it first and Vince Mc Mann paid a lot because his brand had the global copyright well tough the animals were the first to commerce that is why the wrestling is now WWE.


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## skip77 (Mar 11, 2010)

I'm a newbie too but understand that every tshirt printer faces these same questions sooner or later. To the posters that say trademarking is not a top priority for fledgling business on shoestring budget: What if you are certain your logo has good potential to take off and become a household word at least in it's field - if you put trademark on back burner and start pumping out shirts with the logo is it possible that someone else will see your product and apply for the trademark themselves, because it is available and you did not go for it? Could they then stop you from making your own logo? According to EnergyJenny whoever sells the logo first owns the trademark whether they file for it or not?

On this same topic - can anyone speak from experience on using a web based company like the following to file your trademark registration? Will they scam clients for more money or is it straight up and legit? http://www.directincorporation.com/


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## kimura-mma (Jul 26, 2008)

skip77 said:


> I'm a newbie too but understand that every tshirt printer faces these same questions sooner or later.


The issues in this thread are more about t-shirt brands, not t-shirt printers. Print shops face their own issues regarding trademarks and copyrights, but they are different than the ones being discussed here.



skip77 said:


> To the posters that say trademarking is not a top priority for fledgling business on shoestring budget: What if you are certain your logo has good potential to take off and become a household word at least in it's field


There are no certainties in this business unless you have purchase orders in hand. If you don't have the PO's or the budget to register your trademark, then you shouldn't spend the money on it. If you have the PO's or the budget to register, then you should. It is bad business practice to spend money based on potential. If the idea is so great, you'll have the money in no time to spend on trademarks.



skip77 said:


> if you put trademark on back burner and start pumping out shirts with the logo


It's all relative. A few seconds ago you described the business as fledgling with a shoestring budget. But now there's money to pump out shirts? Again, I stand behind my previous opinion of... If you can afford it, register. If you can't, don't.



skip77 said:


> is it possible that someone else will see your product and apply for the trademark themselves, because it is available and you did not go for it? Could they then stop you from making your own logo? According to EnergyJenny whoever sells the logo first owns the trademark whether they file for it or not?


Unfortunately, it is possible someone can apply for the trademark before you. If it's not in the USPTO database, someone can file an application. Then it's up to the examining attorney to look into it. Maybe they find your company and deny the application, maybe they don't find it and approve the application. If you find out about the application in time, you can oppose it and get it denied right away.

But no, they can't make you stop using your own logo if you were using it first. Once it gets to the point that the two companies make claims to the mark, it will go before a judge and the two sides will prove their case. At the end of the day, whoever used it first, will most likely win (I say most likely, because it's possible there are exceptions to the rule, but I'm not an attorney, so I'll leave it at that).



skip77 said:


> On this same topic - can anyone speak from experience on using a web based company like the following to file your trademark registration? Will they scam clients for more money or is it straight up and legit? Incorporations, Trademarks, Websites and Startup Services • Direct Incorporation


Sites like this are legit. They do charge to file the application, so it's more expensive than doing it yourself. But these sites do not offer legal advice, nor make it more likely that your application will be approved. They simply fill out the forms and submit them. They do exactly what you would do, only they do it for you and charge you for it.


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## skip77 (Mar 11, 2010)

thank you kimura - very helpful insights.


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