# The Holy Grail???



## DrivingZiggy (Apr 24, 2017)

Well, I've seen several threads about it. Most--if not all--of them degenerate into something quite contentious and don't end well. If they end at all. It seems to be a continuous debate.

But I got a link to Sawgrass today with the following:


Sawgrass said:


> The Holy Grail in Sublimation
> 
> 
> Gone are the days when you could have any color you like as long as it’s white! Sawgrass and Siser® are launching a new solution in June that means customers need never be limited to light-colored polyester garments again.
> ...



This is in partnership with Siser and they call it _Siser® EasySubli™_. Some more information:


Sawgrass said:


> With Siser® EasySubli™ matte heat transfer material and the Sawgrass specially formulated Siser® EasySubli ink set, the door is thrown open to a world full of color and cotton. This unique combination unlocks the potential of sublimating on colored polyesters, cotton, rayon and more.



Link to the "article."

Link to older article.


Is this a solution to the oft-asked questions or will this, too, bring up a semantics-oriented fist fight?


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## proworlded (Oct 3, 2006)

Try it. We've had great test results.


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## Lnfortun (Feb 18, 2006)

Prepare yourself for being ridiculed. I was when I posted the Uscutter video.


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## webtrekker (Jan 28, 2018)

"The EasySubli transfer vinyl and ink set are perfect for customised garments..."

VINYL!!! 

At the risk of being shot down again this is NOT sublimation as I know it. 

Let's have some more details. Does the transfer have absolutely no 'hand?' How does it stand up to machine washing? 

Too little information for me to put this into the 'Holy Grail' category.

(Update) - In what way can this be compared with sublimation?... 

https://youtu.be/r3M6GDzyAMc

Answers on a sheet of vinyl please.


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## NoXid (Apr 4, 2011)

Cool. I'm sure it will be the right tool for certain situations.

But it is mom fornicating vinyl. That means a cutter. And weeding. Some designs just aren't practical/possible to weed.

If the vinyl is available in a fairly light weight, it will probably establish itself well in the marketplace--being lower investment and fuss than DTG.

If it was self-weeding, it really would be revolutionary!


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## PatWibble (Mar 7, 2014)

I have tried several sublimatable vinyls or papers and all washout after a few washes. Is this any better?


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## proworlded (Oct 3, 2006)

Pat. We have had excellent results through several washings. Results will always depend on the settings being used, the image, colors, detergents, etc., etc.


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## webtrekker (Jan 28, 2018)

proworlded said:


> Pat. We have had excellent results through several washings. Results will always depend on the settings being used, the image, colors, detergents, etc., etc.


What is the hand like? Can you do a full chest design with no hand (as in 'real' sublimation), or does it feel just like any other transfer eg. Jet-Opaque?


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## into the T (Aug 22, 2015)

it is 220 microns thick and easyweed is 90 (chemica hotmark is 50-60um)


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## 1ArmBandit (Jan 24, 2018)

into the T said:


> it is 220 microns thick and easyweed is 90 (chemica hotmark is 50-60um)


220!? no bueno


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## tshirtsrus (Jun 6, 2007)

I'll prefer a print and cut system, a lot cheaper ink and no re-feeding of the printout, yes a bigger investment is required but you can do a lot more with it giving you a huge potential of ROI.

To me, this solution of the sublimated vinyl is more suited for the hobbyist.


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## TABOB (Feb 13, 2018)

webtrekker said:


> 'This unique combination unlocks the potential of sublimating on colored polyesters, cotton, rayon and more.'
> 
> No it doesn't. That's a nonsense. The sublimation is NOT done directly to the cotton. In the UK I'd report this misselling to Trading Standards!


 To be fair, it says "*on*", not "of".


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## TABOB (Feb 13, 2018)

tshirtsrus said:


> I'll prefer a print and cut system, a lot cheaper ink and no re-feeding of the printout, yes a bigger investment is required but you can do a lot more with it giving you a huge potential of ROI.
> 
> To me, this solution of the sublimated vinyl is more suited for the hobbyist.


 That's exactly what it is indented for. Hobbyists and small custom t-shirt sellers.
Print and cut is expensive, and requires a lot more skill and equipment, AND it is still limited to polyester fabric. 
Screen printing is the best way to decorate cotton, followed by DTG.


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## pisquee (Jan 8, 2012)

Surely it's better to sublimate white poly to be whatever colour you want it to be - background and design, and then cut/sew into the product, than try and find workarounds to sublimate over a dark dyed fabric?
It's certainly not the holy grail for us, though does seem a way SG are trying to more ways to sell their overpriced inks!


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## tshirtsrus (Jun 6, 2007)

TABOB said:


> That's exactly what it is indented for. Hobbyists and small custom t-shirt sellers.
> Print and cut is expensive, and requires a lot more skill and equipment, AND it is still limited to polyester fabric.
> Screen printing is the best way to decorate cotton, followed by DTG.


I'm not sure at what print and cut system are you referring to, but the Roland's are actually the most versatile in terms of variety of material that can be decorated with the right media.

And as hobbyists go, you can decorate in the same way with media already in the market using a lot cheaper inks like the Jet-Opaque transfer with pigment inks. I agree with the others as with the terms they are using has been misleading.


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## Signature Series (Jun 11, 2016)

tshirtsrus said:


> I'm not sure at what print and cut system are you referring to, but the Roland's are actually the most versatile in terms of variety of material that can be decorated with the right media.
> 
> And as hobbyists go, you can decorate in the same way with media already in the market using a lot cheaper inks like the Jet-Opaque transfer with pigment inks. I agree with the others as with the terms they are using has been misleading.


Roland eco print cut printers are very expensive but well worth it if you have a market. We have the small Roland BN-20 and it has been bullet proof for almost 5 years. Not one thing has every gone out on it and compared to printing then moving to plotter to cut - it's a dream. Also the poster may be using print cut for cut and sew, but just a guess.

The only dye sub on cotton I have seen that actually has a market is some recent post on repurposing blue jeans. Not sure how they do it and the quality of the images suck but as repurposed piece it has a vey cool vintage vibe. The other unique dye sub that I have seen is dye sub leather -real leather not faux. Wow, I again have no clue how they do it but it is crystal clear graphics.


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## TABOB (Feb 13, 2018)

tshirtsrus said:


> I'm not sure at what print and cut system are you referring to, but the Roland's are actually the most versatile in terms of variety of material that can be decorated with the right media.
> 
> And as hobbyists go, you can decorate in the same way with media already in the market using a lot cheaper inks like the Jet-Opaque transfer with pigment inks. I agree with the others as with the terms they are using has been misleading.


 Sorry... my bad. I always confuse "print and cut" with "cut and sew" as this is the only sublimation I do  
Still, the cheapest Roland costs $8,000.

Many people just want to print just a few shirts per year, and the Jet-Opaque transfers are nothing like Vinyl.


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## Signature Series (Jun 11, 2016)

TABOB said:


> Sorry... my bad. I always confuse "print and cut" with "cut and sew" as this is the only sublimation I do
> Still, the cheapest Roland costs $8,000.
> 
> Many people just want to print just a few shirts per year, and the Jet-Opaque transfers are nothing like Vinyl.


It has always amazed me how much the Roland BN 20 was to buy considering the carriage width but we did not have a lot of options and for us we mostly use it to print on vinyl not intended for apparel. 

I am not sure if I would chose dye sub for casual use. So many things can go wrong and so many issues can pop up, never the less you really need to run dye sub printers or at least have ink passing through the head on almost a daily basis. Heck we have been doing this for almost 15 years as a business and at least twice a year I want to order a roll off and throw everything in it and take it to the dump.


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## seacookie (Apr 29, 2015)

So, do you guys know, if you sweat like pig under the t-shirt if you have big design made with ''The Holy Grail'' or you don't?


Or should seller market those t-shirts as: Sweat T-shirts for loosing weight - custom sauna to go?


Just wondering.


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## TABOB (Feb 13, 2018)

seacookie said:


> So, do you guys know, if you sweat like pig under the t-shirt if you have big design made with ''The Holy Grail'' or you don't?
> 
> 
> Or should seller market those t-shirts as: Sweat T-shirts for loosing weight - custom sauna to go?
> ...


Same thing with most large vinyl, plastisol, and DTG designs.
Still... Much better than wearing smelly plastic (polyester).


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## splathead (Dec 4, 2005)

TABOB said:


> No worries... One of the moderators will soon delete all this nonsense.


Irrelevant posts removed. This thread is about the new Siser/Sawgrass print method using sublimation inks. Take your fiber odor chit-chat, and any other subject, to the lounge or create a new thread.​


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## PatWibble (Mar 7, 2014)

proworlded said:


> Pat. We have had excellent results through several washings. Results will always depend on the settings being used, the image, colors, detergents, etc., etc.


'Several Washings' is pretty much the same as ' a few washes'. Settings and colour and image etc etc are a factor in every printed image.



If the customer can't launder it on a usual cool wash ( 30/40c) with standard detergent then the product is only really suitable to use for party wear.


There are plenty of sublimatable garment films that have a short life. The question has to remain - is this any different?


If it isn't any different then it isn't the 'Holy Grail' of sublimating for dark garments. 



The 'Holy Grail' would need to be a sublimatable vinyl that had the same life as a regular unprinted HTV shirt, or the life of a solvent printed shirt.


Sublimation ink doesn't wash out of polyester fabric and mugs are dishwasher safe, so there is no reason why our expectations of a sublimated HTV garment print should be any less.


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## PatWibble (Mar 7, 2014)

pisquee said:


> Surely it's better to sublimate white poly to be whatever colour you want it to be - background and design, and then cut/sew into the product, than try and find workarounds to sublimate over a dark dyed fabric?
> It's certainly not the holy grail for us, though does seem a way SG are trying to more ways to sell their overpriced inks!


 I understand your perspective on this, and on that basis I agree.


However there is a lot of scope for being able to apply a full colour, intricate chest logo onto dark fabric for workwear or sportwear. At present the only transfer technology that can do that with any durability is solvent/ecosolvent print and cut. 

The ability to be able to do that with a desktop printer has to be seen as a 'Holy Grail', and would be a game changer.


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## sublial (Mar 24, 2011)

Those pictures from Sisser are a very nice Applique. 
This is like printing onto a white decal, cut it and press it onto a dark mug.
AL


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## DrivingZiggy (Apr 24, 2017)

After watching this video, I have to wonder if it's worth all of that time and work just to be able to call something subli. Are the colors that much more vibrant than using JPSS?


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## proworlded (Oct 3, 2006)

Bryan. Have you tried it? We are getting excellent feedback and our testing has shown it be a very desirable product for several reasons. A much different product than JPSS.


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## DrivingZiggy (Apr 24, 2017)

I have not tried it. Alas, I'm still a piker having trouble making ends meet so have not yet bought any equipment at all despite being here on the forum for over 2 years now. But watching Betsy use the stuff sure makes it look like a lot of work. And time consuming! Especially with that "hovering" portion taking up so much time.

Obviously it works. And the colors look magnificent on Betsy's dachshund. But couldn't we get (nearly) the same result using other, cheaper, quicker product(s)?


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## Signature Series (Jun 11, 2016)

DrivingZiggy said:


> After watching this video, I have to wonder if it's worth all of that time and work just to be able to call something subli. Are the colors that much more vibrant than using JPSS?


I am with you. The amount of time to make one single shirt is insane. Add to that the person had issues weeding a very simple graphic file. For an occasional one off maybe but you could never compete against DTG in a commercial marketplace. To much time and too many places where an error could occur.


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## proworlded (Oct 3, 2006)

Vinyl is not meant to compete with DTG. Is for smaller quantities and the profit margin can be much greater since you are offering a custom design that will demand a higher cost.


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## Signature Series (Jun 11, 2016)

proworlded said:


> Vinyl is not meant to compete with DTG. Is for smaller quantities and the profit margin can be much greater since you are offering a custom design that will demand a higher cost.


This is not simple single color vinyl you slap on a $1.00 cotton shirt. Any full color process competes with each other in some areas. This solution and DTG are both done for mostly full color small runs. Again fine for a home hobbyist but if you are competing out in the real world this is a time consuming expensive process. I realize many doing this at home do not count their time as cost but in the real world it is the biggest cost.


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## 1ArmBandit (Jan 24, 2018)

cameo is gonna need a new cutting strip


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## seacookie (Apr 29, 2015)

DrivingZiggy said:


> I have not tried it.


to bad, cause you sure have enough of knowledge to pull this.


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## sublial (Mar 24, 2011)

First of all this is not the Holy Grail that it is being marketed as by some very well endowed Marketeers.
THIS IS A DECAL SYSTEM ONLY.

I am amazed how some on the forum talk about how great the DTG system is for Dark Cotton shirts.From what I have read and heard from so many owners is the cost of the white ink per shirt, the maintenance to repair it, the pretreat cost and application and mot of all the up front cost of the equipment. It will take 15,000 to 20,000 shirts at $1.00 each added to your cost to pay down only the DTG printer. DTG is not a production process Screen printing is.
There are less costly applications for printing onto dark cotton shirts then spending this amount of money because it seems easier. Decals is is know where even close to sublimating onto cotton shirts. Lets start getting realistic.
AL
atttransfer.com
____________


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## webtrekker (Jan 28, 2018)

Well, that makes sense.

Also, sublimation will NEVER work for cotton as there's simply no way the inks can penetrate and stay inside the cotton fibres. The best that can be achieved is some kind of layer ON TOP OF the cotton that can, in turn, be sublimated. However, as mentioned above, that's a DECAL and not sublimation in the true sense.


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## PatWibble (Mar 7, 2014)

Irrespective of the semantics of decals/cotton/sublimation, my issue will always be the washability of the decal. 



The ink doesn't wash out of any other substrate. If it washes out of this product then it isn't truely sublimating into the substrate ( in this case the decal). As such the product isn't any different to any of the other 'sublimatable' vinyls on the market.

If the ink doesn't wash out, then it is sublimating correctly. In that case then it may not be the holy grail, but it will be a usable product.


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## DannyBoye (Sep 17, 2018)

This is just my two cents. 

I got some easy subli the day everyone started shipping it. I’m blown away at the hand. It feels soft. I don’t know how to explain it because while it may be technically thick at 220 microns, it does not even feel that thick. 

I’m using it with an Epson WF-7210 with inks from cobra ink. The new sublimation ink that does not need a color profile with the epson printers. So i don’t have an expensive setup. $250.00 tops. 

I’ve printed several designs all full color. A few detailed designs that have the full color spectrum in them. I’ve given them to friends and asked them to wash it normally and not have a care about washing temp so or detergents used. 

I’ve kept several shirts and have been wearing them often and washing them often. I’ve washed the shirts I’ve kept over and over and have not seen a drastic change in the colors. I have easily washed some of the shirts upwards of 25-30 times. Putting them in the laundry every time someone is doing laundry and not paying any attention to settings. They have been dried on normal temp cycles. Using dryer sheets and fabric softener. I have not seen any major change in the color. 

My friends that I gave shirts too report the same. 

I personally love this product. It’s a bit expensive but when you buy it by the roll it gets cheaper. And I think it’s coming out to be about the same cost or slightly cheaper than DTG. Time and years will tell how it’s going to hold up. But I have so far had nothing but’s praise for this product. As I’ve said it’s been washed more than a few times and still looks great.


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## webtrekker (Jan 28, 2018)

OK. I was willing to bite the bullet and give this a whirl, from UK supplier Grafityp.


However, ................ have you seen the price of this stuff?


I don't think I can make it wothwhile at almost £2 for an A4 sheet of the stuff. I struggle to make a profit on dyesubbed 100% polyester and that only costs me around 20p for a printed A4 sheet.


I'll wait until the price comes down or until more bulk buying options are available before giving it a go.


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## DrivingZiggy (Apr 24, 2017)

I just got an e-mail from Sawgrass to invite me to their webinar that's coming up on Thursday. In case you guys don't get the same e-mails that I do, here you go:


Sawgrass said:


> Webinar:
> Expand Your Creativity with EasySubli Inks
> 
> 
> ...


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## PatWibble (Mar 7, 2014)

webtrekker said:


> However, ................ have you seen the price of this stuff?
> 
> 
> I don't think I can make it wothwhile at almost £2 for an A4 sheet of the stuff.



But if you can get 6 breast logos out of a sheet they are only costing you 35 - 40pence per application. Or two 3.5 x 10" logos will cost you £1 each. The printer and cutter do 95% of the work so there is still good profit to be made for very little work.



To me any form of vinyl based printable media is primarily for logos on workwear or sportswear, not for large fashion prints.
If there is a sublimation based media that removes the need to invest in a £7k-£15k solvent printer then for me that will be a game changer.
But before we can call it a game changer or the Holy Grail then it needs to be proven to work as well as the best solvent media. As things stand none of the existing sublimatable vinyls perform anywhere near as well as solvent media, in terms of image sharpness,washability or the ability to tumble dry. 

It is up to Siser to prove that their product is any better. What concerns me about the image that Siser use in their video is that it contains few bold colour blocks or sharp lines.


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## PatWibble (Mar 7, 2014)

DrivingZiggy said:


> I just got an e-mail from Sawgrass to invite me to their webinar that's coming up on Thursday. In case you guys don't get the same e-mails that I do, here you go:


 Just had a look on the Siser Italy website at the Easy Subli. *Not a single mention of Sawgrass or special EasySubli inks* - you can use this with any sublimation ink. There is absolutely no need to have a dedicated printer with special inks just for this product.
Looks like you guys in the US are being subjected to/stiffed by an exclusive ditribution deal for Sawgrass to keep you buying their inks and Virtuoso printers. Nice work if you can get it.



Here is a link to the Siser web page in Europe - not a mention of Sawgrass.

https://www.siser.com/digital-printing/easy-subli/


Compare it to the North American page -


http://www.siserna.com/easysubli/



I have attached Sisers tech specs pdf. Again no mention of Sawgrass.


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## splathead (Dec 4, 2005)

PatWibble said:


> Just had a look on the Siser Italy website at the Easi Subli. *Not a single mention of Sawgrass or special EasiSubli inks* - you can use this with any sublimation ink. There is absolutely no need to have a dedicated printer with special inks just for this product.
> Looks like you guys in the US are being subjected to/stiffed by an exclusive ditribution deal for Sawgrass to keep you buying their inks and Virtuoso printers. Nice work if you can get it.



I had originally figured as much when the Siser page said you didn't need any special version of the Sawgrass ink. What you already had would work. 

Not sure what percentage of the U.S. dye-suib market Sawgrass has, but you would think Siser wouldn't handicap themselves by inferring this technique only works with Sawgrass.


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## Signature Series (Jun 11, 2016)

PatWibble said:


> But if you can get 6 breast logos out of a sheet they are only costing you 35 - 40pence per application. Or two 3.5 x 10" logos will cost you £1 each. The printer and cutter do 95% of the work so there is still good profit to be made for very little work.


Why do people always worry about ink cost when again in this example the ink, even Sawgrass, is going to cost less than the paper. If you are doing small logos as mentioned above ink cost means zero.


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## PatWibble (Mar 7, 2014)

splathead said:


> Not sure what percentage of the U.S. dye-suib market Sawgrass has, but you would think Siser wouldn't handicap themselves by inferring this technique only works with Sawgrass.


 If it is anything like the European market then much of it will be at the hobbie/home producer end of the market.You have to assume that the Siser Italian parent co. thinks it is more profitable to have Sawgrass pick up the marketing tab for the US and Asian subsidiaries. They don't seem interested in letting Sawgrass get involved in their 'home' European market.


I just hope that not too many people who already have dye sub printers will get dupped into buying easysubli packages unnecessarily, when a simple profile will probably do.



It all shows why forums like this are important.


Now I know that this will work with other inks I will try some to see how it stacks up.


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## sublial (Mar 24, 2011)

It is still a DECAL that is sublimated onto and stuck onto a substrate being Cotton, polyester, ot wood.
AL


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## PatWibble (Mar 7, 2014)

sublial said:


> It is still a DECAL that is sublimated onto and stuck onto a substrate being Cotton, polyester, ot wood.
> AL
> atttransfer.com
> _____________


 Yes it is a decal. A SUBLIMATED decal.


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## sublial (Mar 24, 2011)

Yes not a sublimated cotton shirt
AL


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## webtrekker (Jan 28, 2018)

This is like watching a tennis match. 

'Your ball, PW!' 

😉


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## PatWibble (Mar 7, 2014)

sublial said:


> Yes not a sublimated cotton shirt
> AL
> atttransfer.com
> ___________


I think that was established on the first page of the thread.


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## seacookie (Apr 29, 2015)

come on guys, calm your *splathead would censor that and I would get a warning again *.


He already deleted bunch of posts at start if my mind doesn't play with me. No need to get him here to delete some more again.


You never know when he will come to see what is happening in this thread -.-


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## seacookie (Apr 29, 2015)

I see few posts were deleted. Damn this was fast lol


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## webtrekker (Jan 28, 2018)

This is turning into Monty Python And The Holy Grail!


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## seacookie (Apr 29, 2015)

webtrekker said:


> This is turning into Monty Python And The Holy Grail!


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## sublial (Mar 24, 2011)

I still prefer white toner as my base with the Image Clip for darks paper.


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