# Just tried dye sub for the first time! Thoughts + questions



## Tufflaw (Oct 4, 2008)

I just tried dye sub for the first time after doing plastisol heat transfers for a few years, and I'm very impressed!

First I have to give props to fellow forum member skdave. He sent me some free samples using my own artwork to try this out. When I got the samples I was a little concerned, since I was only used to plastisol transfers. These seemed flimsy and the colors looked washed out. Plus I couldn't feel the ink like I'm able to with plastisol transfers.

I picked up a 100% poly workout shirt at Walmart pretty cheaply and tried it out. I pressed at 400 degree for 40 seconds per Dave's rec.

Holy crap! I was amazed at how bright and vivid the image was! This was the same artwork I had used to make a bunch of shirts with plastisol transfers and this came out looking even nicer. Dave's prices are ridiculously low with same day turnaround so I'm sure I'll be going with him in the future.

Some problems I had due to inexperience. I pressed the back of the shirt, and the dye went through the shirt and a faint outline can be seen on the front. I probably should have put a piece of paper or something in the middle. Question: Can I use any kind of paper? I don't think I can use teflon due to problem number two:

When I pressed I put a piece of teflon paper over the transfer just in case, and the dye came through the back of the transfer and imprinted on the teflon! So I can't use that teflon any more. I realized then when I flipped the shirt over to press a logo on the front, and covered it with the same piece of teflon I had used on the back, and the ink came off the teflon and imprinted on the front of the shirt! ACK. So teflon is out.

To prevent the bleed through to the back of the shirt, I put a regular piece of paper in the middle of the shirt, which prevented any ink coming through, but I noticed something else - on the other side of the shirt, where the paper was, there's a faint outline on my graphics. To try to explain, here's the layout:

Teflon sheet on the platen of my press. Shirt on top, with the back of the shirt which had the artwork already sublimated touching the teflon. In between the shirt layers is a piece of paper. On top of the shirt is my transfer sheet with logo. On top of that is another teflon sheet.

It seems like only the places where the paper was inside the shirt ended up with these "ghost" lines - any thoughts on that?

But anyway, other than my own screwups, I was very pleased with how everything looked. Attaching an image of the main graphic, and a close up of this ghosting effect.

EDIT: I tried attaching the photos a few times and every time it failed  So please look at them here:

http://is.gd/xRpsma
http://is.gd/qTR999
http://is.gd/MHopJb


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## martinwoods (Jul 20, 2006)

why can't you wipe off the teflon? we do that all the time when there is ink on it from dye sub or dtg.


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## Tufflaw (Oct 4, 2008)

martinwoods said:


> why can't you wipe off the teflon? we do that all the time when there is ink on it from dye sub or dtg.


Didn't know I could do that  Will give it a try - hopefully save me a few bucks on new teflon!


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## cbslanger (Feb 9, 2012)

hhmm, I am not using teflon at all any longer as I found it a pain to clean every time and if you missed a tiny bit the next shirt is stuffed. I dont know what size press are you using. Can you pull the Shirt over? or is it a big press? When we use our "pullover" press (15*18) I use a piece of ofcut sublimation paper (100gsm) and put it onto the palett and also another one on top of everything and replace that paper with every shirt. Normal printer paper would do to. its just that we print on 60in paper and got lots of unprinted area which we use as cover sheets. Re-using has stuffed to many shirts over time.
In regards to the press mark. If you can pulover it want be there, if not make sure the paper in the middle is bigger than the pallet. Also play with the pressure. You dont need heaps of pressure, just enough to close the press and a little more. The trouble with polyester is that it is deformable under heat and therefor takes on the imprint of the paper which can not be removed again. You will find the same on your front image if you actualy cut it to a shape smaller than your pallet. We let our paper always hang out of the press, means we always alow lots of space around the print. Much fun.


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## Tufflaw (Oct 4, 2008)

cbslanger said:


> hhmm, I am not using teflon at all any longer as I found it a pain to clean every time and if you missed a tiny bit the next shirt is stuffed. I dont know what size press are you using. Can you pull the Shirt over? or is it a big press? When we use our "pullover" press (15*18) I use a piece of ofcut sublimation paper (100gsm) and put it onto the palett and also another one on top of everything and replace that paper with every shirt. Normal printer paper would do to. its just that we print on 60in paper and got lots of unprinted area which we use as cover sheets. Re-using has stuffed to many shirts over time.
> In regards to the press mark. If you can pulover it want be there, if not make sure the paper in the middle is bigger than the pallet. Also play with the pressure. You dont need heaps of pressure, just enough to close the press and a little more. The trouble with polyester is that it is deformable under heat and therefor takes on the imprint of the paper which can not be removed again. You will find the same on your front image if you actualy cut it to a shape smaller than your pallet. We let our paper always hang out of the press, means we always alow lots of space around the print. Much fun.


I was actually just reading in another thread someone mentioned they use butcher paper instead of teflon, I might give that a shot.

I guess you can't gang prints if you always have enough paper to hang out of the press.


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## cbslanger (Feb 9, 2012)

you can gang, just depending how big your printer and press is. You just need to be really carefull to avoid any contamination. You may not see it on the paper but you will see it on the shirt. Even if it is just blue fluff from a different shirt. Butcher paper should work fine. What type of press and paper are you using? watch out for gost images. Happens when the press opens to quickly, your transfer shifts on the still hot garment and leafs a gost image.


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## coastalbusiness (May 9, 2006)

We use kraft paper between shirts when we're doing wide format sublimation to make sure the ink doesn't bleed - it works incredibly well. Plus, you can get huge rolls and just tear off the size that you need.


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## Tufflaw (Oct 4, 2008)

cbslanger said:


> you can gang, just depending how big your printer and press is. You just need to be really carefull to avoid any contamination. You may not see it on the paper but you will see it on the shirt. Even if it is just blue fluff from a different shirt. Butcher paper should work fine. What type of press and paper are you using? watch out for gost images. Happens when the press opens to quickly, your transfer shifts on the still hot garment and leafs a gost image.


Interesting comment about the ghost image - that's something I noticed about this paper is that it doesn't have to be peeled off like plastisol transfers, maybe that's what cajused the ghosting.

I'm using a Swingman 15x15 and no idea what kind of paper, they're samples I got from a forum member.


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## Riderz Ready (Sep 18, 2008)

Tufflaw said:


> Interesting comment about the ghost image - that's something I noticed about this paper is that it doesn't have to be peeled off like plastisol transfers, maybe that's what cajused the ghosting.
> 
> I'm using a Swingman 15x15 and no idea what kind of paper, they're samples I got from a forum member.


Ghosting is caused by several things but one of the main reasons is poly fabric shrinks when heated. Some shrink more than others. When the fabric shrinks it will ghost regardless how careful you lift the press. This issue is another huge plus for wide format users as it is totally 100% eliminated with tacky paper which is still not available for the desktop market. Everyone who does fabric in wide format use tacky paper. Beaver used to have the corner on tacky paper but we have recently been approached by another vendor offering tacky paper as well. The other plus with Beaver tacky paper is the ink will never bleed through the paper to the top platten. When you use cheap, light weight paper you will have this issue as well which will require another layer of paper to cut, place, dispose. 

The alternative to tacky paper for desktop users is tacky spray (repostioning spray) which you can get at Walmart or hobbie stores for about $4.00 but this stuff is messy if you are doing a lot of shirts. 

As you can see there are a lot of little pieces to printing a professional looking t-shirt. The more of those pieces you can remove the less time and cost you will incur. The number one way to eliminate alot of this is usig quality tacky paper. If I was looking at outsourcing printing to a company I would insist they provide the prints on tacky paper. The money you will save in time and elimination of ghosting errors will be substantial. 

Continued Success


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## skdave (Apr 11, 2008)

always use paper that is larger than your press The second the press is open yank out the paper and you will not have to worry about ghoasting again..

Tack paper as Mark likes to talk about works most of the time BUT it does not tack to some fabrics.

Yack out , non tack paper .


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## cbslanger (Feb 9, 2012)

shrinking fabrics should be a thing of the past more or less. The few we got we just pre-press/pre-shrink. Really bad is chlorine proof lycra. shrinks 10%.
In regards to yanking out the paper, you can also use some weights on a clip and clip it to the sublimation paper which hangs out of the press, once the press is closed. As soon as you open the press it will drag out the paper from under the press. Especialy if you got an automatic opening press and you are not standing whit the press the whole time or get interrupted.


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## skdave (Apr 11, 2008)

CB just said "drag the transfer out" and I say, snap it out PDQ. Some shirts print through and some don't. 
I use brown kraft paper when I have shirt bleed through. 
Also we use 3 pieces of kraft paper under the shirt and 0ne over the transfer to protect the heat press. We change the top one of the three each press and the one on top of the transfer. This is easy once you get the hang of it.


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## cbslanger (Feb 9, 2012)

agree with skdave in regards to changing paper every time. Absolutely paramount, keep it clean.
With "draging" it out I mean, depending on the weight (can easily be 500grams) of your clip the paper will be pulled out fairly quick and fall onto the floor. If you dont want to use a weight you also could use a bungy attached to somewhere and than tightened and clipped onto the paper and will be pulled out really quick once the press opens


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## Tufflaw (Oct 4, 2008)

Thanks for all the tips, I just ordered a few samples of Vapor Apparel from Conde to try out my remaining dye sub samples.

Just to clarify, when you say to snap the paper away, won't any remaining dye "smear", so to speak, if I do that instead of lift it right off?


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## Riderz Ready (Sep 18, 2008)

skdave said:


> always use paper that is larger than your press The second the press is open yank out the paper and you will not have to worry about ghoasting again..
> 
> Tack paper as Mark likes to talk about works most of the time BUT it does not tack to some fabrics.
> 
> Yack out , non tack paper .


The reason I like to talk about tacky paper, especially to new people, is it works 100% of the time. There is no special technique to use. It works on virtually any fabric especially fabrics the typical desktop market will ever use. Furthermore it eliminates the need to purchase, cut, use and dispose of a top barrier sheet. Ink will not bleed through Beaver tacky to the top platten. 

We have no stake in this as we do not offer printing services. Our only stake is to educate noobies on the easiest and fastest way to create products.

Using tacky eliminates ghosting 100%, eliminates all the cost associated with top bleeder paper and increases production time not having to deal with buying, cutting, placing, disposing of this additional bleeder paper.

There is no down side to the paper.


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## Tufflaw (Oct 4, 2008)

Riderz Ready said:


> The reason I like to talk about tacky paper, especially to new people, is it works 100% of the time. There is no special technique to use. It works on virtually any fabric especially fabrics the typical desktop market will ever use. Furthermore it eliminates the need to purchase, cut, use and dispose of a top barrier sheet. Ink will not bleed through Beaver tacky to the top platten.
> 
> We have no stake in this as we do not offer printing services. Our only stake is to educate noobies on the easiest and fastest way to create products.
> 
> ...


Interesting - good stuff! Thanks for the info. I don't have my own printer but am considering getting one to maybe do one-offs or very small orders and getting larger orders elsewhere (most likely from skdave!)


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## cbslanger (Feb 9, 2012)

good morning, no there will not be any "smear" as the ink itself is not wet. The gosting comes from gas which is trapped between the paper and the shirt. Once you open the press air flows into this sandwitch and the paper might move just a fraction and resettle in a different location keeping the gas trapped. since everything is still hot the gas now got the time to settle into the fresh piece of fabric. If you get the paper instantly you dont give the gas enough time to settle anywhere. As said before it needs to be quick. Agree to the tacky paper, thats what we use to. But there are some fabrics which don't take the stick and , at least our paper, only sticks in the printed area. so if I got, lets say text, just text than I got very little tack. On our big press we got a big screen going over everything which keeps everything down when the press pops open its just our little hydrolic press pops open really quick and because the hotplate sits flat on the paper and creates a vacum when it opens it is more likely the paper stays on the hotplate and not on the shirt as it easier for the air to go between shirt and paper than hotplate and paper. thats when the second piece of paper on top makes the differenc.


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## Tufflaw (Oct 4, 2008)

cbslanger said:


> good morning, no there will not be any "smear" as the ink itself is not wet. The gosting comes from gas which is trapped between the paper and the shirt. Once you open the press air flows into this sandwitch and the paper might move just a fraction and resettle in a different location keeping the gas trapped. since everything is still hot the gas now got the time to settle into the fresh piece of fabric. If you get the paper instantly you dont give the gas enough time to settle anywhere. As said before it needs to be quick. Agree to the tacky paper, thats what we use to. But there are some fabrics which don't take the stick and , at least our paper, only sticks in the printed area. so if I got, lets say text, just text than I got very little tack. On our big press we got a big screen going over everything which keeps everything down when the press pops open its just our little hydrolic press pops open really quick and because the hotplate sits flat on the paper and creates a vacum when it opens it is more likely the paper stays on the hotplate and not on the shirt as it easier for the air to go between shirt and paper than hotplate and paper. thats when the second piece of paper on top makes the differenc.


Cool, thanks for the info, I'll keep it in mind when I get my stuff from Conde to press. 

Question: When I'm using plastisol transfers and I do a double-sided shirt I always use a teflon sheet on the bottom when I do the other side to prevent the ink from coming off onto my platen. Do I need to do that for my dye-sub shirts? That is, once the ink is in the shirt, can it transfer to another surface under extreme heat? Would it be better if I wait some time for the shirt to cool before flipping it? Thanks!


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## skdave (Apr 11, 2008)

Tufflaw said:


> Cool, thanks for the info, I'll keep it in mind when I get my stuff from Conde to press.
> 
> Question: When I'm using plastisol transfers and I do a double-sided shirt I always use a teflon sheet on the bottom when I do the other side to prevent the ink from coming off onto my platen. Do I need to do that for my dye-sub shirts? That is, once the ink is in the shirt, can it transfer to another surface under extreme heat? Would it be better if I wait some time for the shirt to cool before flipping it? Thanks!


Use kraft paper on top and under the shirt.
Flip it hot but don't get burnt.


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## cbslanger (Feb 9, 2012)

no need to wait before flipping but definitely out a protective paper over your platen and do not re-use this paper. Sublimated fabric will release inck once it goes over 100 celsius. and put a protective paper inside it in any case. single sided print or double sided. You can never have to much fresh protective sheets/paper when doing sublimation. Keep it clean, clean, clean. not so much of a drama with full on prints but with lots of white remaining you will see any little piece of inkspluter or dust from other polyester fabrics


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## skdave (Apr 11, 2008)

Riderz Ready said:


> The reason I like to talk about tacky paper, especially to new people, is it works 100% of the time. There is no special technique to use. It works on virtually any fabric especially fabrics the typical desktop market will ever use. Furthermore it eliminates the need to purchase, cut, use and dispose of a top barrier sheet. Ink will not bleed through Beaver tacky to the top platten.
> 
> We have no stake in this as we do not offer printing services. Our only stake is to educate noobies on the easiest and fastest way to create products.
> 
> ...


 
There are a couple of down sides Mark ,one is Beaver cost 3 times what others charge .Another is you can't see through Beaver which often causes crooked prints which when you are new at all this, can get expensive.
I buy my kraft paper to fit my press and that takes out a full step in the process.
I agree with you on the other points but alot of Fisher's fabrics do not stick to Beaver.


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## Tufflaw (Oct 4, 2008)

skdave said:


> There are a couple of down sides Mark ,one is Beaver cost 3 times what others charge .Another is you can't see through Beaver which often causes crooked prints which when you are new at all this, can get expensive.
> I buy my kraft paper to fit my press and that takes out a full step in the process.
> I agree with you on the other points but alot of Fisher's fabrics do not stick to Beaver.


Dave when you say you buy kraft paper to fit the press do you mean that it holds down the transfer so it avoid ghosting? I just bought a roll of white butcher paper that will fit my press in order to attempt this.


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## Riderz Ready (Sep 18, 2008)

skdave said:


> There are a couple of down sides Mark ,one is Beaver cost 3 times what others charge .Another is you can't see through Beaver which often causes crooked prints which when you are new at all this, can get expensive.
> I buy my kraft paper to fit my press and that takes out a full step in the process.
> I agree with you on the other points but alot of Fisher's fabrics do not stick to Beaver.


Not sure where you are getting your pricing for Beaver paper but in typical wide format people are buying by the pallet and the pricing for a pallet of 400' paper is very cost effective. When we have Beavers competitors contact us they are never more than 15% less. 

If you are buying 400' rolls of paper for $28 I am all ears especially if it is tacky paper.

Not real familiar with Fischers stuff as they are way high unless one is looking for a speciality fabric. If you are buying fabic in 1000+ yds you can buy direct and easily save 35% over Yarrington, Fischer and Vapor for standard fabrics. For unique fabrics we need for special projects we still use Jackson at Vapor. 

I guess to each his own but the hassles and the lost products prior to tacky paper were a headache. With tacky there is no losses incurred and no bleader paper to worry about. It has had a positive effect on production time and losses all which add on to the bottom line.


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## skdave (Apr 11, 2008)

Mark, If you want my paper I can sell you a 38" roll of non tack for $40 but mine is 500 feet long. 20% more. Most Beaver is only 328 feet long, I have never seen 400 footers.
If you want tack I have a different supplier that is 1/2 the cost of Beaver per square foot. It works great.
My paper requires a lot less ink as well as high transfer value. Of course you would need to program a new profile which is always a pain.

I will contact your fabric supplier, thank you.


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## kwt1955 (Nov 3, 2011)

I use a teflon sheet on the bottom to protect the bottom cover from any bleed-thru. I then use a piece of uncoated butcher paper over the the teflon or inside the shirt to protect bleed-thru to the other side of the shirt. I rarely use the same piece of butcher paper twice as the colors will transfer onto the next shirt. You also have to use a foam pad that is larger than your design and smaller than the paper. The pad is used to raise the shirt so the platen only touches the area to be pressed. The edges of the paper should hang over the pad so you do not create a permanent paper outline on the shirt.


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## Tufflaw (Oct 4, 2008)

There's a tip I saw in one of the Conde videos where he rips the edges of the paper on all four sides and before pressing and it eliminates the paper marks. It seems that would eliminate the need for foam - although wouldn't foam also be useful to eliminate the edges of the platen? Or is that unnecessary if the pressure is low enough?


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## kwt1955 (Nov 3, 2011)

Tufflaw said:


> There's a tip I saw in one of the Conde videos where he rips the edges of the paper on all four sides and before pressing and it eliminates the paper marks. It seems that would eliminate the need for foam - although wouldn't foam also be useful to eliminate the edges of the platen? Or is that unnecessary if the pressure is low enough?


Ripping the paper softens the edges. My experience is the edges will still show up, especially on a lightweight shirt. It is best to experiment before trying on a new shirt


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## Tufflaw (Oct 4, 2008)

OK so I got my vapor apparel from Conde and pressed the remaining skdave samples using all the advice above, and they came out great! Yanking the transfers out as I lift the press eliminated the ghosting. I ripped the edges and reduced the pressure significantly and eliminated paper lines. 

Thanks!


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## cbslanger (Feb 9, 2012)

another job well done !


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## skdave (Apr 11, 2008)

The reason we print on larger paper is so you don't have to Deal with foam, tearing paper,and light pressure. 
We give you 18x21 paper for 16x20" press and 18" x 16" paper for 15x15" press. Remember to QUICKLY pull out the transfer the second the press opens and you will not have goasting.


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## Tufflaw (Oct 4, 2008)

skdave said:


> The reason we print on larger paper is so you don't have to Deal with foam, tearing paper,and light pressure.
> We give you 18x21 paper for 16x20" press and 18" x 16" paper for 15x15" press. Remember to QUICKLY pull out the transfer the second the press opens and you will not have goasting.


I ended up having to do some ripping because when I sent you the designs I didn't realize how different I'd have to treat this from plastisol and I put all my images next to each other.


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## skdave (Apr 11, 2008)

I understand. Always place the art where you want it to print in the press inside the 16x20 or 15x15 box .
We have paper up to 54" for larger presses.


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## jfisk3475 (Jan 28, 2011)

Home Depot brown painter paper works great.

Sent from my SGH-T679 using T-Shirt Forums


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## nakirfa (Aug 2, 2010)

hey guys i recently tried sublimation on mugs and noticed that the colors on the mug once sublimated are much lighter than the original picture say for example the RED is pinkish on the mug and black is faded or charcoal grey please help am using coreldraw x4. initially am thinking of using darker shade of the color so once i sublimate i get the color i want say maroon to get red say on a mancherster united footbal club logo how do i set coreldraw to get correct colors .
the printer is epson p50.
which is better to use adobe photoshop or coreldraw esp for the color issue


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## Cathy91722 (Feb 26, 2010)

I've done some shirt sublimation and haven't had any issues (yet) that I've been reading about on this thread. As far as the transfer moving would it cause problems to use the heat tape to 'tack' a corner or two down. I always use fresh butcher paper below, above and in the middle of any shirt I'm working on. I then put it in a bin for the kids to draw on or whatever.


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## jfisk3475 (Jan 28, 2011)

You contact the printer coompany a get color profile. Change that and you are good to go.

Sent from my SGH-T679 using T-Shirt Forums


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