# Is DTG technology changing?



## ROYAL SAVAGE (Feb 18, 2009)

It appears that the landscape on DTG equipment may be poised for both competition and change. Do you feel it? 
Up until now there has been a relative degree of parity in the machine world with the exception of the higher end, higher priced gear. Many existing DTG machines are built on similar platforms relying on software tweaks to separate themselves from each other. Certain brands like Brother and Kornit have relied on more proprietary technology to create their brand identity and capture their respective market share. It looks like there are new guys on the block. Where’s this going? What do we need to make this industry better?


----------



## Liberty (Jul 18, 2006)

I agree, it looks like the technology may be hitting the maturity point where it can be counted on to work more often than not and can be handled in a production environment by an employee with something less than a degree in engineering.

I'm anxious to see what unfolds in the next few months. I personally have held off moving to DTG after years of failed digital processes going back to the old Seiko ribbon printers with the latest being the Natura Printer that ended up being a very nice boat anchor.

I would like to see a more integrated package where pretreat is incorporated and there is less of a concern over maintaining the humidity levels in the shop. (not an easy task in blustery Ohio this time of year) (ink solutions but integral in the process)

And the bottom line is that the price vs throughput ratio has to get just a little bit better. And maybe the advent of some of the new printers will drive costs down on current models to make them the attractive purchase?


----------



## Belquette (Sep 12, 2005)

_Yes!
2012 will finally put to rest many of the concerns you mention._


----------



## allamerican-aeoon (Aug 14, 2007)

Belquette said:


> _Yes!
> 2012 will finally put to rest many of the concerns you mention._


I cannot agree more on what you said. Beautiful mind creates peace. Evil mind will destroy themselves. Leopard spots never change. foolish people thinks they are bigger than themselves. Needle stealer become a horse stealer without guilt. Life will bring fairness to all. I sleep good every night. Cheers!


----------



## zoom_monster (Sep 20, 2006)

ROYAL SAVAGE said:


> It appears that the landscape on DTG equipment may be poised for both competition and change. Do you feel it?
> Up until now there has been a relative degree of parity in the machine world with the exception of the higher end, higher priced gear. Many existing DTG machines are built on similar platforms relying on software tweaks to separate themselves from each other. Certain brands like Brother and Kornit have relied on more proprietary technology to create their brand identity and capture their respective market share. It looks like there are new guys on the block. Where’s this going? What do we need to make this industry better?


Kevin, 
Looks like you might be getting that cheaper ink you've been looking for. Happy Holidays!!

Personally I'm excited about more robust platforms and machines that will be manufacture friendly rather than geek/craftsman friendly. Perhaps all the dues of the early investors will pay off. Next 2 years should be interesting.


----------



## DTG Digital (Oct 8, 2007)

allamerican said:


> I cannot agree more on what you said. Beautiful mind creates peace. Evil mind will destroy themselves. Leopard spots never change. foolish people thinks they are bigger than themselves. Needle stealer become a horse stealer without guilt. Life will bring fairness to all. I sleep good every night. Cheers!


You guys are amusing


----------



## Don-ColDesi (Oct 18, 2006)

Belquette said:


> _Yes!_
> _2012 will finally put to rest many of the concerns you mention._


Did you all finally get the automatic behind-wiper thing working on the new printers Mark?


----------



## YoDan (May 4, 2007)

Don-ColDesi said:


> Did you all finally get the automatic behind-wiper thing working on the new printers Mark?


 Interesting 
Dan
*"HAPPY PRINTING"*


----------



## abmcdan (Sep 14, 2007)

Don-ColDesi said:


> Did you all finally get the automatic behind-wiper thing working on the new printers Mark?


It's great when people think outside the box... increasing production by decreasing bathroom time.. genius. 

Also add an exhaust hood and cigarette lighter so my guys don't go outside every half hour to smoke.


----------



## ROYAL SAVAGE (Feb 18, 2009)

abmcdan said:


> It's great when people think outside the box... increasing production by decreasing bathroom time.. genius.
> 
> Also add an exhaust hood and cigarette lighter so my guys don't go outside every half hour to smoke.


At least my guys time the print, run outside and smoke until the shirt is done. Crazy. Rain, snow, sleet, minus zero, hail, tornados, they are out there!


----------



## Belquette (Sep 12, 2005)

Don-ColDesi said:


> Did you all finally get the automatic behind-wiper thing working on the new printers Mark?


_Yes Don...the "automatic behind-wiper' thing is very gentle and does a good job at keeping that area clean...
I can wrap one up just for you in time for Christmas and program it to wipe very very often lol.
_


----------



## Belquette (Sep 12, 2005)

abmcdan said:


> It's great when people think outside the box... increasing production by decreasing bathroom time.. genius.
> 
> Also add an exhaust hood and cigarette lighter so my guys don't go outside every half hour to smoke.


Missed that feature, thanks Andy!
Now I'm thinking that we should include a food warmer, chiller in addition to the auto-wiper an operator would never need to leave the machine for breaks....now there's a productivity increase!
What next?


----------



## Don-ColDesi (Oct 18, 2006)

Belquette said:


> _Yes Don...the "automatic behind-wiper' thing is very gentle and does a good job at keeping that area clean..._
> _I can wrap one up just for you in time for Christmas and program it to wipe very very often lol._


Be careful that you ship the right part when a customer orders a "wiper" for their printer.


----------



## Liberty (Jul 18, 2006)

Well this thread sure deteriorated quickly... I've suddenly developed an itch. Must be a defective wiper thingy...


----------



## Don-ColDesi (Oct 18, 2006)

Liberty said:


> Well this thread sure deteriorated quickly... I've suddenly developed an itch. Must be a defective wiper thingy...


Sorry Mark, end of year slap-happiness I guess.

To seriously answer the question. Yes, 2012 will be an exciting year for direct to garment. As many of the bigger players are moving forward from the Epson-based arena we will see screen printers and other large scale decorators beginning to accept the technology. With Epson trudging forward with their technology it will (already has) become more difficult to re-purpose their machines and parts will begin to get scarce for the earlier Epson units. We will no doubt see in 2012 that the Epson- based units are indeed - on the clock.


----------



## ROYAL SAVAGE (Feb 18, 2009)

Don-ColDesi said:


> Sorry Mark, end of year slap-happiness I guess.
> 
> To seriously answer the question. Yes, 2012 will be an exciting year for direct to garment. As many of the bigger players are moving forward from the Epson-based arena we will see screen printers and other large scale decorators beginning to accept the technology. With Epson trudging forward with their technology it will (already has) become more difficult to re-purpose their machines and parts will begin to get scarce for the earlier Epson units. We will no doubt see in 2012 that the Epson- based units are indeed - on the clock.


Not to scare Epson based owners to much Don. Epson has produced millions of machines. Those machines will continue to suck Epson OEM ink for quite some time. Epson will keep those machines running for the forseeable future with parts. Epson makes no money because DTG people scavenge there technology to make t-shirt machines. They, like the major DTG manufacturers are in business to sell comsumables to the market for which the printer was developed. The third party ink manufacturers that service the graphic arts proofing and photo print industries have already developed work arounds to some of the new "Epson only" security built into the newest versions of the printers.


----------



## Don-ColDesi (Oct 18, 2006)

Kevin,

I'm not trying to scare anyone, simply stating truth. Remember, we still sell some Epson-based solutions. The reality is that the 2100, 2200, 2400, 1800, 1900 & 4800 are all discontinued and are on the clock for parts. ANd, yes, there are chip crackers out there working on busting the Epson technology. That being said - the cracks that have come for the "newer" Epson technology are not 100% - evidence the 1900 where the machine does a purge every time a chip is reset and there has yet to be a "full set" resetter made. Couple this with smaller Epson cartridges which mean more frequently needed resets and I think you will begin to understand why I say what I do. Epson has already told those of us who are "partnered" with them not to pursue the new 10 channel heads (4900 type) as they are going to lock down those heads - likely requiring that the printer be sent to a service center for the head to be replaced.


----------



## ROYAL SAVAGE (Feb 18, 2009)

Don-ColDesi said:


> Kevin,
> 
> Epson has already told those of us who are "partnered" with them not to pursue the new 10 channel heads (4900 type) as they are going to lock down those heads - likely requiring that the printer be sent to a service center for the head to be replaced.


I've heard that and I've heard information to the contrary. Why do you think that Epson does not want you "partnered" with them on new machines?


----------



## Don-ColDesi (Oct 18, 2006)

Good question Kevin. My understanding is that Epson is not worried about direct to garment as you surmised, but are concerned about aftermarket machines that use their heads - large format types that are springing up outside of their traditional partner chain (Roland, Mutoh, Mimaki, Stork) that require the heads. That is the full reason behind the requirement of a serial number to get heads for current units. It is also important to understand that Epson does make money on their "re-purposing partners" such as ourselves as we pay above retail price for the printers from them to make up for the subsequent loss of ink revenues to the manufacturer.


----------



## 102557 (Mar 6, 2010)

Don-ColDesi said:


> Good question Kevin. My understanding is that Epson is not worried about direct to garment as you surmised, but are concerned about aftermarket machines that use their heads - large format types that are springing up outside of their traditional partner chain (Roland, Mutoh, Mimaki, Stork) that require the heads. That is the full reason behind the requirement of a serial number to get heads for current units. It is also important to understand that Epson does make money on their "re-purposing partners" such as ourselves as we pay above retail price for the printers from them to make up for the subsequent loss of ink revenues to the manufacturer.


 the m2 still uses the dx5 head? doesnt that still put you in the epson category? Unless you partnered with one of the "traditional partner chains"?


----------



## Don-ColDesi (Oct 18, 2006)

The M2 does indeed use the DX5 head. And we are indeed partnered with a traditional partner as you have ascertained. THe M2 is not a re-purposed Epson, there is a huge difference - as you know from your extensive experience on this side of the industry. 

By the way - the DX5 head is the head of choice in the vast majority of large format eco-sol printers. When not encumbered by the limitations placed on it by page-printer firmware - it is a great print head.


----------



## loloxa (Sep 5, 2007)

Would anyone be surprised to hear that Epson are already developing an in house dtg? I wouldn't.


----------



## 102557 (Mar 6, 2010)

Don-ColDesi said:


> The M2 does indeed use the DX5 head. And we are indeed partnered with a traditional partner as you have ascertained. THe M2 is not a re-purposed Epson, there is a huge difference - as you know from your extensive experience on this side of the industry.
> 
> By the way - the DX5 head is the head of choice in the vast majority of large format eco-sol printers. When not encumbered by the limitations placed on it by page-printer firmware - it is a great print head.


I agree, i think the dx5 head and epson for that matter has the tech advantage.. just curious on the connection there, it looks as if the firmware is designed for the machine itself? looking at the m2 i see alot of advantages with the side by side platen.. I was thinking on the level of waste ink in a two for one deal however if its machine specific firmware and you have control over the purge/ spit, its kind of moot.. looks to be a winner!!


----------



## Don-ColDesi (Oct 18, 2006)

loloxa said:


> Would anyone be surprised to hear that Epson are already developing an in house dtg? I wouldn't.


I would be surprised as they have not seriously pursued other markets that are much more viable like sublimation or eco-sol print and cut. We all see the direct to garment market as huge, but in comparison it is small compared to sublimation & eco-sol print & cut and microscopic in comparison to paper printing.


----------



## loloxa (Sep 5, 2007)

well, I can say they are definitely INTERESTED in producing garment decoration solutions for the end user, VERY much so indeed, and this will be a huge game changer in the market ( 18-24 months?).

Also Espon has many machines where it makes money from the hardware itself, all the 5000$+ printers, and I think that's where they will go with their subli solutions and dtg.

don't take my word for it.


----------



## ROYAL SAVAGE (Feb 18, 2009)

Don-ColDesi said:


> Good question Kevin. My understanding is that Epson is not worried about direct to garment as you surmised, but are concerned about aftermarket machines that use their heads - large format types that are springing up outside of their traditional partner chain (Roland, Mutoh, Mimaki, Stork) that require the heads. That is the full reason behind the requirement of a serial number to get heads for current units. It is also important to understand that Epson does make money on their "re-purposing partners" such as ourselves as we pay above retail price for the printers from them to make up for the subsequent loss of ink revenues to the manufacturer.


Epson's revenue stream on ink is all they care about. If they can make money off DTG they will. 

Don do you have a dollar value on DTG sales for the industry?


----------



## allamerican-aeoon (Aug 14, 2007)

I was in Aeoon office all day and tomorrow also. Yes, technology is changing rapidly. I saw 400/hour speed 13"x 17". Omg. 
When it comes Dtg all 3 should speed up in same time.
Hardware, software and chemical. One missing all dead meat. Chemical seems always last one catching up. Price of hardware and chemical are keep coming down. I don't know about Kornit ink price but new inks are plus minus $100/liter. Now finally can print dark shirts at reasonable price and speed. Less than 50 cents?? 30% of DuPont? Aeoon has project 36 printhead in line. Crazy faster Than screen print!
Surely things are changing. No champs are forever.
Cheers! Beers are on me always.


----------



## Belquette (Sep 12, 2005)

Liberty said:


> Well this thread sure deteriorated quickly... I've suddenly developed an itch. Must be a defective wiper thingy...


As Don said it's the time of year!
But all joking aside, we are very serious about improving the technologies for this industry and have spent the last 2 years developing and manufacturing solutions that will allow this industry to grow in multiple directions that involve many disciplines. There are many factors that must be addressed to achieve a viable yet affordable solution.
Like I said 2012 will uncover what this industry really needs and have been waiting for.

 HAPPY HOLIDAYS!


----------



## DTG Digital (Oct 8, 2007)

Belquette said:


> As Don said it's the time of year!
> But all joking aside, we are very serious about improving the technologies for this industry and have spent the last 2 years developing and manufacturing solutions that will allow this industry to grow in multiple directions that involve many disciplines. There are many factors that must be addressed to achieve a viable yet affordable solution.
> Like I said 2012 will uncover what this industry really needs and have been waiting for.
> 
> HAPPY HOLIDAYS!


Thanks Mark -  i look forwad to seeing what you have been brewing for the last few years

Merry Xmas
Steve


----------



## allamerican-aeoon (Aug 14, 2007)

Politicians, many promises and bla bla but never deliver. This industry have too many of them. They should find job in Washington DC where all the cheating, stealing, betray are going on 24/7.
Just look into politicians past. Never deliver any promises in past will show you he will never deliver in future too. True DTGian like Steve quite but show new things with surprise. Lots of luck to you Steve.
Cheers! Beers are on me always.
Steve, drop me a email or some. Happy holidays to you.


----------



## allamerican-aeoon (Aug 14, 2007)

Anajet M and DTG M are game changer in major small business field so far without delivery yet. Few are working on to be on the this list.
Kornit, brother and Aeoon are industrial larger business changers.
I see brother will be front runner pretty soon when they finalize their new printhead. Money talks, brother has more money than anyone in Dtg industry. They just move so slow. Kornits total sales was not impressed me for 6 years. Aeoon smallest company with great concept and speed. I hope AA is riding right horse at least until brother catching it up. If Epson get into this market which is prox $50-70 million per year (I get this number $20,000/ machine average x 2500 to 3000 per year and supplies.) then game will be changes upside down. Exciting world to us but not to giants. Its chunk of changes to them.
Cheers! Beers are on me always.


----------

