# DTG Printing Quality



## locs32 (Jul 18, 2010)

Hello everyone
I Have a question about DTG Printing.
Does it matter how the graphic you get printed on the shirt is..
becuase awhile back i got a design DTG printed on a white shirt and the black didnt come out as black sorta look faded
i made the design on photoshop CS3
300 DPI
and RGB
does it matter how it is like RGB or CMYK 
and if it does whats the best way to go so that the black comes out almost pure black thanks!


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## FatKat Printz (Dec 26, 2008)

Yes, it all matters..Photoshop is a raster based program and to get vibrant colors from a bitmap the printer would need to make changes in their software to let RIP (printer software) know that its not a vector format. Many of us use PS andhave mastered how to fix these problems.. but now we have light garment and poly pretreat options to help with the faded colors going onto white shirts. Or we have the option to double pass the color which will cost more simply because its like we are doing a black shirt.


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## spiderx1 (Oct 12, 2009)

RGB is better because it has a wider color spread. Black can be handled different ways on different color shirts. On a black shirt you can use black ink or the color of the shirt.


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## FatKat Printz (Dec 26, 2008)

spiderx1 said:


> RGB is better because it has a wider color spread.


RGB looks better on screen for sure. EVERY printer prints in CMYK, no RGB bags/bottles/printheads are available that i know of. When creating art for print it's better to create it in CMYK. There's alot or RGB colors that cannot be recreated in CMYK and vice versa. There are alot of greens and blues that are out of range for CMYK. I've tried leaving the art in RGB and sometimes it works and looks ok. Usually CMYK is exactly as on the screen. So showing a customer RGB artwork is just waiting for disappointment. RGB Blacks at any setting never print as well as CMYK set to C:60 M:40 Y:40 K:100. Vector art prints better than raster in our experience.

Since, Photoshop is the mass appeal software to create artwork you are left with limited options to create smooth, clean, and matching colors from the screen to the shirt. 

Photoshop is for photo editing and when transferring to DTG you are forcing a RGB raster artwork to print with a CMYK printer. 

Sure it looks great on the screen its suppose to cause that's what the software is suppose to do..the transition to the DTG printer is a different story. 

I am not saying go out and buy Illustrator or Corel Draw but understand that you are creating bitmaps, jpegs and pngs not true vector artwork that can be (resized, color adjusted and match how you want your design to look on a shirt) 

Even importing vector artwork into Photoshop it automatically converts it to raster because it doesn't work with vector artwork. Same goes with Illustrator, if you combine a bitmap and vector artwork and save as an eps format. Doesn't make the bitmaps vector until you vectorize them. 

Every DTG printer(end user) is different on how they handle Photoshop but it does take some time to get the file to match how you want it. Sometimes, its too dark or too light sometimes it right on. 

So the way to make sure black will print true black would be to use the CMYK settings, that I mentioned. Or ask your printer for a sample to see how they print black. We use a different combination of things depending on the file. 

Also, the washability of the black is another thing it may look good the first day but could wash out faster if proper curing isn't followed.


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## binki (Jul 16, 2006)

what we have done is to create the black in vector rgb black and convert to a bitmap at 300dpi and then print at 200 dpi with 2 passes using a pretreat. we get really black blacks. 

for quality of shirts, rignspun are really good. american apparel and gildan softstyle work good.


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## FatKat Printz (Dec 26, 2008)

binki said:


> what we have done is to create the black in vector rgb black and convert to a bitmap at 300dpi and then print at 200 dpi with 2 passes using a pretreat. we get really black blacks.
> 
> for quality of shirts, rignspun are really good. american apparel and gildan softstyle work good.


That would be good if the OP has a vector program but we are discussing Photoshop.. 

So if Photoshop is the only way this shirt can be created then 2 passes and pretreat will probably have to do. 

But, Binki remember when you print its gonna eventually print CMYK so are you converting to a CMYK bitmap?


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## vinyl signs (Dec 26, 2007)

RIP stands for Raster image printing! 

So what every RIP does is make every thing you send to the printer a raster image, now as far as colors it all depends how the RIP is set up. They all do some sort of converting. Below is a representation of the color problems when doing computer art. All monitors display in RGB and most printer print in CMYK.


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## FatKat Printz (Dec 26, 2008)

vinyl signs said:


> RIP stands for Raster image printing!


You are close (Raster Image Processor) because to print vector from a vector its additional charge at least through (RIP Pro from iproof) because of copyright issues. 

Yes, there is a conversion from the graphic software to the printer. But what the OP is asking is that he had a problem with his blacks coming out true black. This is not his fault and he shouldn't have to do anything to change it because in the end its the DTG printer who should ensure that the black is truly black. 

Using Photoshop, which has been mentioned before is a Raster based program but that doesn't mean his particular design will come out truly black if the printer doesn't make the necessary changes to fix it. 

If there is a RBG color code that anyone knows of that is not
R 0 G 0 B 0 that can print true black without double pass and pretreat.. please share 

The CMYK code I mentioned comes out a true black but looks better with a double pass and pretreat much better than our original C 0 M 0 Y 0 K 100.

**note these are at 720 x 720 color settings ** 

When you start vector and have RIP PRO convert it for print it looks much better then starting off with a raster especially with pixalation. Don't get me wrong 70% of the artwork I deal with is raster and print it the best we can but when you have junk there is nothing you can do but warn the customer..


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## binki (Jul 16, 2006)

FatKat Printz said:


> But, Binki remember when you print its gonna eventually print CMYK so are you converting to a CMYK bitmap?


RGB bitmap. it works for us.


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## vinyl signs (Dec 26, 2007)

Sorry Fatkat Printzbut you are incorrect, *RIP is Raster Image Print*. This is a standard in the graphics industry. This is why you can take a raster image and just drop into Rip Pro and it processes!


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## DAGuide (Oct 2, 2006)

I think you are arguing over whether it is a print or a processor. In my opinion, a RIP is the software device used to send information to the printer with greater control than a traditional driver. I have seen RIPs that will allow you to import a vector image, but I believe it will rasterize it immediately.

I think if you ask most printing software companies that specialize in fabric printing, they will recommend the majority of people to print using RGB over CMYK. The reason is not necessarily color accuracy (because you can get color loss from the conversion of RGB to CMYK), but because the higher saturated colors in the RGB color mode look better on a garment than when the artwork is printed out of CMYK color mode. This is an issue I am dealing with right now with the Brother RIP that is in development. Only a % of users will be able to understand that color reproduction and what looks good are not always the same thing.

As far as how to get the best black, there are so many variables (i.e. what graphic software program you are using, color mode, rendering intent, working space, color engine, what was the artwork originally created / saved in,...) that it is almost impossible to have one standard way. Not to mention that color is subjective and you could get three different opinions as to what is the best color from three different people (especially in males that have a higher rate of color blindness). For all the people that I have worked with, I always tell them to print color charts out for all the different settings you use. Yes, this means that the black on a white shirt may be different than a black printed on a white underbase on a colored shirt.

In the end, fully understanding color is a difficult task. I have been at it since 2006 and I still think I have only scratched the surface. Just my quick thoughts.

Mark


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## allamerican-aeoon (Aug 14, 2007)

DAGuide said:


> I think you are arguing over whether it is a print or a processor. In my opinion, a RIP is the software device used to send information to the printer with greater control than a traditional driver. I have seen RIPs that will allow you to import a vector image, but I believe it will rasterize it immediately.
> 
> I think if you ask most printing software companies that specialize in fabric printing, they will recommend the majority of people to print using RGB over CMYK. The reason is not necessarily color accuracy (because you can get color loss from the conversion of RGB to CMYK), but because the higher saturated colors in the RGB color mode look better on a garment than when the artwork is printed out of CMYK color mode. This is an issue I am dealing with right now with the Brother RIP that is in development. Only a % of users will be able to understand that color reproduction and what looks good are not always the same thing.
> 
> ...


Mark is not my favorite poster in forum but I am agreee on his posts this time. Man~, I admire him sometimes.


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## vinyl signs (Dec 26, 2007)

Mark I have to agree with you on color management! The one thing with the RIP's for DTG is you do not get a consistant enough material to have a reason to create your own profiles, so we are all stuck using the ones the Rip developers are packaging with the software! From what I understand most RIPs use LAB for doing their conversions which throughs another color space into the process.


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## vinyl signs (Dec 26, 2007)

Mark all I was saying about RIP is there is a definition of the acronim.


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## FatKat Printz (Dec 26, 2008)

vinyl signs said:


> Sorry Fatkat Printzbut you are incorrect, *RIP is Raster Image Print*. This is a standard in the graphics industry. This is why you can take a raster image and just drop into Rip Pro and it processes!


once again you are close.. 

Raster image processor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

*What is PostScript and why do I need a PostScript RIP?*
PostScript is a programming language optimized for printing graphics and text. A PostScript RIP (*Raster Image Processor*) converts the output from your application into an image allowing you to utilize a non PostScript printer for high quality color and sharp, legible type.
-http://www.iproofsystems.com/support/faq.htm

*WHAT IS A RIP?*

In its simplest form, a RIP (*Raster Image Processor*) interprets the data from your image file into a form that your printer can understand. This translated information tells your printer how to lay down dots of ink to reproduce your image on the printed page. Most RIPs available today can process raster data (bitmap or photo), vector data (design elements created in a graphics application), and text.
Wasatch Computer Technology, LLC - Wasatch RIP Software


*Let 'er RIP*
In desktop publishing, RIP — *(raster image processing* [verb] or raster image processor [noun] — is the process and the means of turning vector digital information such as a PostScript file into a high-resolution raster image. That is, the RIP takes the digital information about fonts and graphics that describes the appearance of your file and translates it into an image composed of individual dots that the imaging device (such as your desktop printer or an imagesetter) can output.

RIP - Raster Image Processing - What it is, Errors that occur, How to fix RIP errors

*Definition of: RIP *

(*Raster Image Processor*) The hardware and/or software that rasterizes an image for display or printing. RIPs are designed to rasterize a specific type of data, such as PostScript. As desktop computers became more powerful, software RIPs became more appealing than specialized hardware RIPs. Software can be 
upgraded more easily, and the operation is always speeded up by installing a faster CPU

RIP Definition from PC Magazine Encyclopedia


I know you can take a raster image and drop it into RIP, you can also take a vector image and drop it into RIP both will print. I am not arguing that it can't do it but as Mark mentioned there are several different way to interpret colors. Every DTG printer is different, its very hard to match up someone else's work because of the many processes one takes to get a DTG print. 

But the conversion from RGB to CMYK (to print) can cause the print to be dramatically different then what's on the screen. This is where customers get frustrated because Photoshop is accepted in the digital world as a creator software but it doesn't always produce what you see on the screen. 

Not everyone can be an Vector artists, I know graphic artists that use Illustrator and send me an .ai file with half bitmaps and half vector. Back to the OP, the interpretation of your image can vary by the printer and the printer processes. 

Take for instance this post :

http://www.t-shirtforums.com/direct-garment-dtg-inkjet-printing/t146849.html

He created his art with Gimp software saved it in a format for Photoshop and the DTG printer could not reproduce the print to satisfy the customer.


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## allamerican-aeoon (Aug 14, 2007)

FatKat Printz said:


> once again you are close..
> 
> Raster image processor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> ...


Is it husband or wife? I am confused who is posting. I think youy guys using same ID in here. Suggest make different ID as same as my son and me. It is getting deep, I want to know who is deep.


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## FatKat Printz (Dec 26, 2008)

allamerican said:


> Is it husband or wife? I am confused who is posting. I think youy guys using same ID in here. Suggest make different ID as same as my son and me. It is gettiong deep, I want to know who is deep.


Mainly its me, Carla ..but Pat chats it up in the background but if he posts he will add his name. 

So its joint effort.. sometimes


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## vinyl signs (Dec 26, 2007)

OK Carla I will eat my words! But telling someone to use CMYK is not the correct way, color management is and knowing your software! The problem with most artwork received from customers is this artwork has been through so many different ICC profiles that no one knows what the original profile was used. How many people in this field have their monitors calibrated let a lone their whole systems?


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## FatKat Printz (Dec 26, 2008)

vinyl signs said:


> OK Carla I will eat my words!






vinyl signs said:


> But telling someone to use CMYK is not the correct way, color management is and knowing your software! The problem with most artwork received from customers is this artwork has been through so many different ICC profiles that no one knows what the original profile was used.


We aren't discussing color profiles.. the OP wanted to know what the best way to get pure black RGB or CMYK..I gave my personal experience on CMYK pure black, binki gave his personal experience, Mark gave his.. true many chose RGB but I prefer the CMYK output of black 



locs32 said:


> does it matter how it is like RGB or CMYK
> and if it does whats the best way to go so that the black comes out almost pure black thanks!



So in the end there no correct answer.. plus we all know that we need to double pass and pretreat so no matter what one pass on a white shirt unless at a higher resolution other than 720 x 720 you are probably not going to generate a pure long lasting black onto a white shirt.


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## allamerican-aeoon (Aug 14, 2007)

I am pretty drunk. But it is good thread. I will keep reading until fall in sleep in couch.

After I lost big time on golf game today and starting to drink right after game. mis-spelling all over. But I did not forget to open TSF. I wish TSF does have auto spelling like Microsoft. Well I hit more than 100 today sucks.


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## spiderx1 (Oct 12, 2009)

FatKat Printz said:


> We aren't discussing color profiles.. the OP wanted to know what the best way to get pure black RGB or CMYK..I gave my personal experience on CMYK pure black, binki gave his personal experience, Mark gave his.. true many chose RGB but I prefer the CMYK output of black
> 
> 
> 
> ...


WOW, kinda blew up there didn't it.

Composite Black in RGB is R47 G43 B51.

I agree in the RIP Pro software, known under other names as well, a Vector prints much better than a raster file, although they both get run thru the RIP.

Approx number of colors available in cmyk is 1 million.
Approx number of colors available in RGB is 16 milliion.

RGB files will print with CMYK which is really CMY.

Most find better results if design in RGB and print with an RGB color profile such as Adobe RGB.

If you print using SWOP CMYK profiles you may find your colors muted. This is a common complaint in DTG printing and just one of the reasons.

Some RIP software designers have begun to remove the possibility of even using a cmyk piece of art and insist that it is RGB or will ignore it. This is done, one of the reasons, to maintain the best color reproduction first time out of the chute. 

But Carla has a lot of experience with this and has developed some great tech that work well. 

And we will leave additive and subtractive color methods for anothor year.


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## DAGuide (Oct 2, 2006)

allamerican said:


> Mark is not my favorite poster in forum but I am agreee on his posts this time. Man~, I admire him sometimes.





allamerican said:


> I am pretty drunk. But it is good thread. I will keep reading until fall in sleep in couch.
> 
> After I lost big time on golf game today and starting to drink right after game. mis-spelling all over. But I did not forget to open TSF. I wish TSF does have auto spelling like Microsoft. Well I hit more than 100 today sucks.


Justin (Peter's son), make a mental note that your dad is vulnerable when he losing a golf game and gets drunk. 

Mark



allamerican said:


> I wish TSF does have auto spelling like Microsoft. Well I hit more than 100 today sucks.


Peter,

Try using FireFox as your internet browser. It has a spell checker built in it. 

By the way, I printed the quote out above. Now I just need to impress Don C., Mark B./Brett Q., Harry O., Jeff B. and Chase R. ... then I will have accomplished my goal.

Mark


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## cavedave (Dec 5, 2006)

RGB vs CMYK
The great debate, they both have a lot to offer. A good place to start the education is
Should You Design in RGB or CMYK

But this doesnt really help to much as it doesnt mention direct to garment which is its own world of color.

First of all there is no definitive answer to this question, if you look at that link it says inkjet RGB (for desktop inkjets). It says this becuase all Windows drivers (that is those that are not PostScript) only support RGB input. So if you have CMYK in a document it gets converted to RGB when sending it to the driver.
CMYK input is only supported if you have software that is PostScript or PDF compatible or it has been specifically written to support CMYK bitmap data such as PSD, Jpeg or TIF.

So first of all check with the company that provided the software.

WYSIWIG (What You See Is What You Get)
Does that mean you have to design in CMYK (certainly not)
In most design programs there is an option to proof your colors, for example look in the PhotoShop View menu and you will see Proof Colors, turn this on and it will display the colors as if you were in CMYK. NO if you are really smart you can also select View - Proof setup and go and select the ICC output profile you RIP uses and then it will proof the colors as they wil be printed with your RIP and output color space.
In fact even if you want to work in CMYK you should setup the CMYK working space as the ICC output profile of your RIP to get correct WYSIWIG colors.

For black shirts I would always recommend RGB as its a much better color space for calculating the underbase, its impossible to do in CMYK correctly because you dont know what formula was used for K generation. You will only ever see problems in dark color shadow areas, but it will happen where a dark red might print but dark green will just be black.

Vector / Bitmap colors should be able to print exactly the same output color (when they are the same) and when they dont its most likly down to some color managment related issue. For example using different input profiles (and this is so important and always overlooked)
Everyone goes on about output profiles, but there are two side to every story. When ever you print RGB or CMYK the color managment (which as someone says worksing in Lab) has to have two ICC profiles. An input profile and the output profile.
The Input determines how the input color is converted from its space to Lab (eg RGB or CMYK -> Lab) and the output profile converts it from Lab to CMYK (the device space of the printer).
So its the SWOP ICC input profile that causes the CMYK colors to look muted (and that because on prepress they are), but its quite possible to have a CMYK input that doest.
Similarly you can have a CMYK input that gives you the same black out put for 100,100,100,100 as 0,0,0,100 as an input.

Vinyl Signs hit the nail on the head, understand color managment.

I prefer RGB, but in realty you have to deal with what the customer gives you and for that you need to understand how to manage both and dont under estimate what difference changing the input profile can do for you.

Best regards

-David


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## red514 (Jul 21, 2009)

vinyl signs said:


> Sorry Fatkat Printzbut you are incorrect, *RIP is Raster Image Print*. This is a standard in the graphics industry. This is why you can take a raster image and just drop into Rip Pro and it processes!


FatKat was correct
Raster image processor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Resolute DTG (Jun 27, 2010)

Its raster image processor, nuf said.


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## FulStory (Jun 5, 2013)

binki said:


> what we have done is to create the black in vector rgb black and convert to a bitmap at 300dpi and then print at 200 dpi with 2 passes using a pretreat. we get really black blacks.
> 
> for quality of shirts, rignspun are really good. american apparel and gildan softstyle work good.


hi mostly of my image that I thought is clear is only 96dpi. How come. So can the dtg print out the image of 96dpi?


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## FulStory (Jun 5, 2013)

FatKat Printz said:


> RGB looks better on screen for sure. EVERY printer prints in CMYK, no RGB bags/bottles/printheads are available that i know of. When creating art for print it's better to create it in CMYK. There's alot or RGB colors that cannot be recreated in CMYK and vice versa. There are alot of greens and blues that are out of range for CMYK. I've tried leaving the art in RGB and sometimes it works and looks ok. Usually CMYK is exactly as on the screen. So showing a customer RGB artwork is just waiting for disappointment. RGB Blacks at any setting never print as well as CMYK set to C:60 M:40 Y:40 K:100. Vector art prints better than raster in our experience.
> 
> Since, Photoshop is the mass appeal software to create artwork you are left with limited options to create smooth, clean, and matching colors from the screen to the shirt.
> 
> ...


Hi, the image should be in 300dpi? How to create such big dpi image since most the image i found is only 96dpi?


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## Smalzstein (Jul 22, 2008)

More than 200 dpi is unnessecary in DTG. Some images in 72 or or 96 dpi can be procesed without the problem if they have high resoluton in pixels.


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## FulStory (Jun 5, 2013)

Smalzstein said:


> More than 200 dpi is unnessecary in DTG. Some images in 72 or or 96 dpi can be procesed without the problem if they have high resoluton in pixels.


hi thanks for reply.

by the way, can you help me to see this type of design, see can it print by dtg?


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## Belquette (Sep 12, 2005)

> by the way, can you help me to see this type of design, see can it print by dtg?


Yes.
If you email us the original image we would be happy to print a sample one for you on a black and white tee to judge.
Most DTG printers today can handle just about anything you can throw at it.
Having a little Photoshop experience can go a long way depending on the image.


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## dazzabling (Sep 21, 2011)

http://www.t-shirtforums.com/graphics-design-help/t231689.html

Mark probably has the license to print this for you.


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