# Start Up DTG Printer - New and Need Advice



## the.blue.knight (Jul 27, 2010)

_Hi,

I'm new to this forum. Looking to invest in a DTG printer. This will be out of the home and small runs and small jobs for the most part. Probably will want to print on white and darks. I'm very familiar with traditional screen printing and I was a graphic designer in my past. DTG is new to me and I've been out of the graphic design business for 20 years. I'm seeing some older postings but this technology is changing weekly it appears so I'm attempting to get the latest and most updated info. 

1) What is a good start up (dependable) printer for home use and small runs? A good heat press that is reputable would also be needed I imagine to set the ink.

2) I'm not familiar with inkjet DTG printing to any extent. Is it dependably applied and able to endure washings like traditional screen printing? Does it hold up with the garment when done correctly?

Any information or upcoming DTG printers/technology ideas would be welcome. I'm coming in ground level and I'm seeing a lot of positives and negatives on different printers which in many ways makes it confusing. One guy says he loves the HM1 while another guy says it sucks.

Some of you may know of new DTG equipment about to be introduced to the market and maybe I should hold off a few months? Not sure. I'm not interested in spending a fortune, maybe up to 15K since it's just a start up and a supplement income business. 

Thanks. Look forward to all of your insights

Jeff_


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## FatKat Printz (Dec 26, 2008)

Jeff-

15K is very reasonable..but I can save you alot more especially starting up in a home based business

Here is what you need to look into 

-used/refurbished DTG Kiosk2 or T-Jet2 (fraternal twins) $4k-$7K
~~ w/ RIP V.O4 software not sure actual cost if not included
-preferably a newer Digital Knight DK20 with auto-pop-up $1200
-in conversion...seriously any ink you get from these first ad's throw away immediately.. 
-Wagner Spray gun if not included $60-70
Here are some for sale

http://www.t-shirtforums.com/tf-classifieds/t126869.html (I don't know the history but it has a majority of everything you need)

http://www.t-shirtforums.com/tf-classifieds/t127025.html (same here don't know history)
*
http://www.t-shirtforums.com/tf-classifieds/t125497.html 

(this would be your best buy because after you receive any other used printer this is what you need to do to achieve the best results) *

I know Adam and we eventually converted to this system and seriously tripled our business. We start in our home with a brand new K2 and lost money everyday after the switch we added a 2nd one and moved into a shop with 5 months of having this system. 

You don't need WIMS (*W*aste *I*nvestment *M*oney *S*ystem or Bulk Ink (nothing against Bulk Ink just never wanted it)

read my posts , Printzilla and Adam "Tahoe" Tomahawk..this what we are doing and its working for us..


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## zoom_monster (Sep 20, 2006)

_Jeff, See below......_

_Hi,_

_I'm new to this forum. Looking to invest in a DTG printer. This will be out of the home and small runs and small jobs for the most part. Probably will want to print on white and darks. I'm very familiar with traditional screen printing and I was a graphic designer in my past. DTG is new to me and I've been out of the graphic design business for 20 years. I'm seeing some older postings but this technology is changing weekly it appears so I'm attempting to get the latest and most updated info. _

_1) What is a good start up (dependable) printer for home use and small runs? A good heat press that is reputable would also be needed I imagine to set the ink. I would recomend looking at positive and negative through this group and use the info to ask the right questions of the people you may plan on buying from. If you were very familliar with inkjet, I would say you may be able to get a used unit, but since you are new, expect and budget to pay more for training and more service as you are going through the learning curve. I've had an Anajet for the last 3+ years and it was a great fit for me. Your location may help you to deside on getting a more local provider. Most of the Major MFGs have good machines and training. Some machine are more advanced, and others are tried and true._

_2) I'm not familiar with inkjet DTG printing to any extent. Is it dependably applied and able to endure washings like traditional screen printing? Does it hold up with the garment when done correctly? If you are familiar with 4 color process in screenprint, you may already understand enough to get a good start. If you are thinking in terms of spot colors.....learn that CMYK is a totally different animal. It's very cool to take an idea direct to a t-shirt, but you will never get the "athletic" or spot color look from CMYK on a t-shirt. White ink is a new thing to inkjet, so expect to spend a lot of time and money perfecting "it". If you can follow instuctions and take steps to conquer your variables, The process is very dependable in producing high resolution artwork in shirts that are marketable. If you plan on doing this "at home" make sure you know that in order to have the printer profitable, you have to feed it enough work to keep the ink moving. Idle printers cost wasted ink and clogged printheads._

_Any information or upcoming DTG printers/technology ideas would be welcome. I'm coming in ground level and I'm seeing a lot of positives and negatives on different printers which in many ways makes it confusing. One guy says he loves the HM1 while another guy says it sucks. It boils down to understanding the process. Most people who become unsatified either lacked the committment, didn't have the capacity or didn't do enough homework to make a good choice in the begining. It's the same whether you by screening equipment or an embroidery machine.....8 out of 10 people may fail_

_Some of you may know of new DTG equipment about to be introduced to the market and maybe I should hold off a few months? People have been saying this for years. I would still take your time, to go to shows, get printing done by existing "wholesalers" and vendors using your artwork. If it does what you expect, and you think you can make a plan to make your money back in 24-36 months, then jump in at that point. Stuff is improving all the time, but there are people out there that have 4 and 5 year old machine that are doing better than people with new ones. The technology is simple....the operators are the ones that make it work._

_Not sure. I'm not interested in spending a fortune, maybe up to 15K since it's just a start up and a supplement income business. _

_Thanks. Look forward to all of your insights_

_Jeff_


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## spiderx1 (Oct 12, 2009)

What fatkat said. But some have had problems getting enough white with only 3 channels. I have both 3 and 4 channels machines. A tjet2 and tjet3. I have to turn down the white on the tjet3. U can find a tjet 3 for under 3k but unless you want to tinker everyday stay a way. The tjet2 is a workhorse and same as the kiosk. Use the bagged ink system to reduce hassles. If u got the money u can look at velocity jet and mod1. But i never see these used. RIP software is around 800-900$. But u have to have it. Multirip gp is great with good support. Ek rip just added support for the 2200 based machine (tjet2 and kiosk). Ez artist is the new fast artist. U must have a rip.


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## chobay (Aug 4, 2009)

I would definitely recommend seeing some of these in action. Go to a trade show, or find someone local that is willing to give you a tour. Come armed with a list of questions.


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## spiderx1 (Oct 12, 2009)

Bring a file and ask that they print it. Realize the files they demo are tweeked perfect. Like buying a car. Great idea I know there is one in atlanta in sep.


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## FatKat Printz (Dec 26, 2008)

zoom_monster said:


> _The technology is simple....the operators are the ones that make it work._
> 
> _N__f_


basically that's what it boils down.. you will have to separate the screen print and DTG businesses... 

You are not going to be able to price the shirts the same.

Ink costs
Pretreat costs

So going out and purchasing a brand new 15k printer and you will get frustrated because you won't make the money back fast enough..you are not gonna be happy camper. 

I can not compete with any screen printers in my area.. You can't print on 50/50 darks shirts with screen print results

Guess what.. you want 25 different colors on one shirt I can do it ..but its gonna cost you.
not because I want to overcharge it because i am gonna charge because it quality. 

I don't agree with the trade shows visit because the bigger machines are what they are gonna want to sell you. Being home based the smaller and the better. 

Where are you located??? find someone first off "happy" with their Kiosk..there is so much negativity trust me I had my share..but I throw away my ink delivery system and couldn't tell you how happy we are. 

check this post out... 

http://www.t-shirtforums.com/direct-garment-dtg-inkjet-printing/t126346.html

save your money for your learning curve and upgrading your print software.. and basically being able to still pay the bills in case you have a slow month


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## Printzilla (Mar 22, 2007)

You don't need to go to any shows. I have been printing with DTG's longer than 99.999999999% of people on the planet, and that includes the people selling them at shows. 

Take it from me, I know what I speak of.......whatever you do, make sure the system you buy will work with the belquette bagged inks. If you start with that, the rest can be learned much easier. I'm not saying that other machines don't work (I have had six different brands over the years) it's just less frustration with bagged degassed ink. 

If new interests you, then go with the Mod 1. If used then a Kiosk like FatKatz suggested. Feel free to PM me if you would like more info. 

Zilla


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## HPS (May 13, 2010)

FatKat Printz said:


> Jeff-
> 
> 15K is very reasonable..but I can save you alot more especially starting up in a home based business
> 
> ...


What is the cost to take a unit like this and convert to the bag system from belquette? do they do or is it an end user upgrade/conversion job?

Thanks


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## FatKat Printz (Dec 26, 2008)

HPS said:


> What is the cost to take a unit like this and convert to the bag system from belquette? do they do or is it an end user upgrade/conversion job?
> 
> Thanks


it depends on your current setup... what kind of printer do you have?? do you have the bulk ink system? no this is something you need to do yourself..

this is a conversion kit ~you are not adding anything more than what you needed in the first place.. 

I consider it an upgrade even though all I changed was my ink lines, dampers and added a cable chain that's about it. So if you machine is due for this since K2 and Tjet's need to change all this over time..basically you are doing it maybe sooner or at the right time.

Here is my current set-up..we added the lab jack with a metal sign that I currently had bolted to the side. But you can do whatever you want as long as the bags lay flat.

Marc- do you have pics??


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## HPS (May 13, 2010)

No white ink unit, was looking at ms one, mod 1 and velocijet, also thinking about getting 2 of the refurbished t jets from EZ for redundancy and to increase my white shirt output, just happened to be looking at one of the printers you listed and when I read about the conversion to the bagged ink I thought I would ask how much something like that was and if it required a tech or was a user upgrade. I have a brother gt-541 and have been trying to add a dark garment unit for a few months but everythim I think i have made up my mind I read something else or think about other options. i have studied this to no end and just can't pull the trigger, have buyers remorse and have not even bought yet.

the 3rd link you showed with the bag upgrade, what is a fair market price on a unit like that, he did not have a price listed but said to make offer, what is the going rate for a used unit like that?

Thanks


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## spiderx1 (Oct 12, 2009)

Ok as fatkat says just bag it! no you do not need to go to a trade show. But as long as you understand that half of what you here is bs. It is a great place to see a lot of different options. I would not buy there. But it can provide an education across the dtg spectrum. Every bit of knowledge helps. If taken with a grain of salt. I would not spend a lot of money but if one is close!


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## JeridHill (Feb 8, 2006)

With the bagged ink system, you only pay for the ink.


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## Printzilla (Mar 22, 2007)

HPS said:


> the 3rd link you showed with the bag upgrade, what is a fair market price on a unit like that, he did not have a price listed but said to make offer, what is the going rate for a used unit like that?
> 
> Thanks


I would think between 6-8k, depending on how many platens, how much ink, when some of the user replaceable parts were serviced (capping station, wiper blade, etc.....). 

Where are you located?


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## FatKat Printz (Dec 26, 2008)

HPS said:


> the 3rd link you showed with the bag upgrade, what is a fair market price on a unit like that, he did not have a price listed but said to make offer, what is the going rate for a used unit like that?
> 
> Thanks


I am not sure... he has 2 kiosks and a Mod right now. All of them are bagged..so you know it works if he keeps using them. 

PM he is on the forums all the time..he may even get on this one I will shoot him the link.


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## binki (Jul 16, 2006)

the.blue.knight said:


> _...__This will be out of the home and small runs and small jobs for the most part. Probably will want to print on white and darks... _
> 
> _1) What is a good start up (dependable) printer for home use and small runs? ..._


The equipment is sensitive to temperature and humidity as well as dust. 

Low volume will tend to = problems. These machines like to run so they need to run daily or you need to mothball them while not in use. 

The white ink needs near daily agitation. 

Buy an extra or 2 of everything that can break as well as supplies, including but not limited to:

encoding strip
capping station
wiper
print head
ribbon cable
carriage
cleaning carts
cleaning towels (lint free)
cleaning fluid
Even the smallest of these things take up a fair amount of room and are heavy.


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## FatKat Printz (Dec 26, 2008)

The white ink needs near daily agitation. 

With the bags, a good shake is enough


encoding strip
capping station
wiper-comes with capping station @ dtginks.com
print head
ribbon cable
carriage
buy all parts at Welcome to DTGInks.com best prices
cleaning carts
cleaning towels (lint free) (Viva paper towels are the best)
cleaning fluid (Windex w/ammonia) _full strength or diluted with distilled water_


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## spiderx1 (Oct 12, 2009)

A kiosk just popped up on the for sale. Sounds like its been taken care of. Stored with cleaning fluid etc.


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## sabrina (Mar 4, 2008)

Another good place to buy OEM parts for the Kiosk such as print head and other parts is Compass Micro. Their print head is cheaper than the link above. Not by much though. For the Kiosk 2 just search F138040 for the print head.


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## IYFGraphics (Sep 28, 2009)

binki said:


> The equipment is sensitive to temperature and humidity as well as dust.


While true with the right ink delivery system and a little TLC it's not as big a deal as one might think.



binki said:


> Low volume will tend to = problems. These machines like to run so they need to run daily or you need to mothball them while not in use.


I have to disagree, low volume is exactly what DTG printers are all about (unless you own a Kornit), with the proper maintenance and prep most of the printers are happy and produce wonderful prints. I will agree the more often you can run the machine the better but if you flush the print head you can go a long time between prints with no problems. 



binki said:


> The white ink needs near daily agitation.


Yeah...maybe, depends, if our printer is sitting we might do it every day or every third day...really it's a 30 sec deal not like you have to stand there for 20 min shaking the bottles.



binki said:


> Buy an extra or 2 of everything that can break as well as supplies, including but not limited to:
> 
> encoding strip
> capping station
> ...


We are now at 14 or 15 months owning our DTG, it came with a couple extra encoder strips, we are still using the original, the capping station has been changed once and is about due to be changed again, the print head is original (thousands of prints!) we have never had to change anything but our capping station, and this is with the EZ bulk ink system.

Like a lot of folks I never expected any DTG to be plug and play, we are meticulous about keeping everything as clean as possible, I keep the print head flushed out if it's going to sit for more than a couple days, and really the amount of time it takes to do what is required is IMHO very minimal.

JMHO...your mileage might be different.


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## jbrian (Aug 6, 2010)

Hey all. Just wandering what your views are of the Neoflex.We currently have a Brother but want a white ink option. I understand there is a learning curve for printing white in and we're prepared for that. We are planning on going to Atlanta next month to see the neoflex in action and just wanted some opinions.
Thanks
Brian


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## TahoeTomahawk (Apr 12, 2006)

sabrina said:


> Another good place to buy OEM parts for the Kiosk such as print head and other parts is Compass Micro. Their print head is cheaper than the link above. Not by much though. For the Kiosk 2 just search F138040 for the print head.


Agreed, Compass Micro is a great place to get OEM parts, nice people to work with too.


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## WholesalePrint (Sep 23, 2008)

> unless you own a Kornit)


 AAAAAH Not true but hey.


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## binki (Jul 16, 2006)

You don't need spare parts until something breaks or stops working on Friday at 5pm and everyone is closed for the weekend and you have to deliver by Monday. A few hundred for a print head and less than $100 for the rest is worth the agrevation you will have when you don't have the parts you need. 

All it takes is bumping the encoder strip and it jumps out of the slot and you don't see it and the next thing you know your print head zips across and snaps the encoder.


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## WholesalePrint (Sep 23, 2008)

Maybe try outsourcing to build client than buy a used machine


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## IYFGraphics (Sep 28, 2009)

WholesalePrint said:


> AAAAAH Not true but hey.


Yes I know.. I was speaking generally..and I meant you no disrespect I know you guys have Brothers and are cranking out production, but for the average user here on TSF I think most are happy producing 20, 50 or 100 shirts a week. Again no disrespect intended IMHO there is a place in this industry for both large producers and small producers not everyone wants to be a Zazzel or Cafe Press, much less have all the headaches that go along with that type of operation.


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## WholesalePrint (Sep 23, 2008)

IY I know you meant no harm  I just felt left out Hahaha


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## matt51776 (Aug 24, 2010)

Lots of good information here. Thanks to all who added


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## IYFGraphics (Sep 28, 2009)

matt51776 said:


> Lots of good information here. Thanks to all who added


:welcome:We're glad to have you aboard!


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## skdave (Apr 11, 2008)

Read every word on this Forum. Then read it again.


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## binki (Jul 16, 2006)

> ...low volume is exactly what DTG printers are all about ...


I don't remember that in the sales pitch. 



IYFGraphics said:


> not everyone wants to be a Zazzel or Cafe Press, *much less have all the headaches that go along with that type of operation*.


what, like making money?


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## FatKat Printz (Dec 26, 2008)

binki said:


> what, like making money?


you are doing this for money... hahaha this just a hobby for us.

a 12 hour 7 day a week hobby.. I mean why would we want to 

make money... its for the birds


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## binki (Jul 16, 2006)

FatKat Printz said:


> you are doing this for money... hahaha this just a hobby for us.


We had a visitor from the forums that is in this biz out of his home and I give him the tour of the shop and the first thing he says is 'Wow, a REAL business!'

I was confused about that until he said I was the first he saw that actually was not working out of the house. 

So yeah, we have a monthly nut to make.


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## FatKat Printz (Dec 26, 2008)

Yeah, we finally got a shop and have had some return customers come to the shop and they are all amazed ..

Its nice but now you gotta work twice as hard..


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## IYFGraphics (Sep 28, 2009)

Morning Folks...



binki said:


> I don't remember that in the sales pitch.


What I meant was orders of less that 1000 shirts, we all know how long it takes to do 100 shirts (both sides) with a Kiosk or T-Jet compared to a screen printer with an auto that's very low volume....DTG is always compared to screen printing by our customers.

Now don't get me wrong if I had a customer who wanted 1000 shirts and said we could deliver them in lots of 100 and charge a DTG price per shirt I would be all over the order. LOL!



> what, like making money?


Nothing wrong with making money it's why we all get up in the morning and go to work, but for some of us size does matter, with every step up the ladder of success the rungs get narrower and the steps further apart, the chance of falling becomes greater and the costs associated with each step grow exponentially while the return becomes less for each step....it becomes a volume based business where you have to have a certain amount of production every hour of every day to make a profit because of the overhead.

There is a "sweet spot" for every business as far as growth, go past that spot and everyone involved is at risk from forces outside of your control...it's not a fun place to be.

JMHO


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## binki (Jul 16, 2006)

Yes, we would take a dtg job for 1000 shirts. It would take a month of constant printing but we would do it.

Only 5% of all businesses ever gross $1 Million a year. Just remember, average people are always at their best.


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## TahoeTomahawk (Apr 12, 2006)

Oh man, we did an order of 600 shirts front and back on a single Kiosk. Took us about 3 weeks 2 shifts. I pulled a lot of all-nighters for that order.


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## FatKat Printz (Dec 26, 2008)

TahoeTomahawk said:


> Oh man, we did an order of 600 shirts front and back on a single Kiosk. Took us about 3 weeks 2 shifts. I pulled a lot of all-nighters for that order.


don't scare me like that.. I have a potential order like that .. luckily we have 2 K2's and we are bagged but hopefully it will only take a week and half.. 

maybe I can rent a Mod for the week.. lol


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## TahoeTomahawk (Apr 12, 2006)

FatKat Printz said:


> maybe I can rent a Mod for the week.. lol


You guys live close enough to Belquette, just show up at their door and say you'd like to Demo a MOD1 or MOD2. Then ask them for a dolly so you can bring in all of the boxes of "test" shirts.


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## FatKat Printz (Dec 26, 2008)

sounds like a great idea.. 

I will say I just wanna "check it out" before making the plunge..


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## WholesalePrint (Sep 23, 2008)

600 shirts last week end for a university. Started Saturday mourning early till 11pm Also on Sunday same shift


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## binki (Jul 16, 2006)

We we just wrapped up a 2 color 200 shirt order in vinyl for a family reunion. We typically do one color orders with vinyl but they are getting larger and larger. Our avg. order beyond the one-offs is getting to be around 100 but we have quite a few orders over that amount coming in now.


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## TahoeTomahawk (Apr 12, 2006)

We used to do batch orders with Vinyl, now if there are too many and it's complicated to weed we do screen print transfers.


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## kevrokr (Feb 26, 2007)

FatKat Printz said:


> sounds like a great idea..
> 
> I will say I just wanna "check it out" before making the plunge..



Tell them you want to see it in "production"...oh, wait you're talking about us...


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## FatKat Printz (Dec 26, 2008)

Yeah, we are having some slight issue with the new Hover and I asked Pat to ask you.. 

it was funny he said.. they haven't used it an entire day like we have so for the 5 mins they use it ..they love it.

the press is great and easy to handle just some odds things waiting on Hotronix to call back.


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