# Resolution comparison Dtg/screenprint (4 color process)



## 102557 (Mar 6, 2010)

This post might not be in the right place however i cant find alot of info on the subject.. I thought i may get some answers from folks that use or have used both processes..

What is the maximum resolution/dpi that can be achieved with screen print doing a 4 color process plastisol?? I have seen some vids on youtube that look really nice with this process..

Im having a hard time grasping/understanding the calculation for this for different mesh sizes, i have seen 4.5/ mesh to achieve the LPI?Can someone explain this in dept? regards to mesh/lpi/angles and dot type? and for those that dtg aswell what is your opinion on the finished product between the two..

I have an inquiry on a larger order, full color image on a black shirt and i thought i may save some time/money by using the four color screen print process but it needs to look nice I would be using accurip/ corel draw and 156-200 screens any recomendations info would be appreciated..


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## JeridHill (Feb 8, 2006)

Jeff, the 4.5 divided by the screen mesh will tell you what halftone frequency to use. If your mesh count is too low in relation to your halftone, you will get a moire pattern.

A high halftone frequency for a commercial printer is 133. For screen printers, 65 would be high. So the halftone dot is larger, and you can see how you begin to lose detail. You can achieve really good halftones, but a lot of high end companies use a stochastic dot instead. You are using more of a spot process instead of process colors, so you need to have more colors per print, but the end result can be a lot more defined than using 4 color process.

A 4 color process on a white shirt can have really good results. On a dark shirt, adding a white underbase usually isn't the solution. The colors shift too much and 4 color process is not the ideal way to go. A good quality full color print using a screen printing method on darks, you really need a bare minimum of typically 8 spot colors (more is always better.). You can imagine then, your registration has to be spot on.


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## 102557 (Mar 6, 2010)

JeridHill said:


> Jeff, the 4.5 divided by the screen mesh will tell you what halftone frequency to use. If your mesh count is too low in relation to your halftone, you will get a moire pattern.
> 
> A high halftone frequency for a commercial printer is 133. For screen printers, 65 would be high. So the halftone dot is larger, and you can see how you begin to lose detail. You can achieve really good halftones, but a lot of high end companies use a stochastic dot instead. You are using more of a spot process instead of process colors, so you need to have more colors per print, but the end result can be a lot more defined than using 4 color process.
> 
> A 4 color process on a white shirt can have really good results. On a dark shirt, adding a white underbase usually isn't the solution. The colors shift too much and 4 color process is not the ideal way to go. A good quality full color print using a screen printing method on darks, you really need a bare minimum of typically 8 spot colors (more is always better.). You can imagine then, your registration has to be spot on.


Thanks Jerid, 

At what shirt count do you think it would be beneficial to go the screen route.. the time/ cost on a dark for dtg adds up quick!! above 50 shirts?


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## zoom_monster (Sep 20, 2006)

I agree 65 lines is the usual max(305 to 355 mesh?). You have to burn the small (5%) and the large ( 95%) dots. On higher end printing you will see printers that use "stochastic" dots and as Jerid noted "more colors". The stochastic dots are 200 dpi but all the dots are the same size, so if you can resolve one you can resolve them all. This gives you more detail than you get in a traditional screened 4CP and they are opaque rather than trasluscent colors. printing 4CP in DTG has a much wider gamut because finer dots mean more detail and more color posibilities.


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## red514 (Jul 21, 2009)

zoom_monster said:


> The stochastic dots are 200 dpi but all the dots are the same size, so if you can resolve one you can resolve them all.


this sounds like Index. I 've never dealt with stochastic half-toning before but i thought it was the same concept as halftone patterns, using different sized dots, only the dots where dithered rather then a set pattern.

with Index, the dots (actually squares) are all the same size depending on the ppi of the image. i do most of my work using 180ppi so they can be easily exposed on 280-300 mesh counts. 200ppi gives a finer detail but you need to use higher mesh counts. The lower the ppi, the more stippled the image looks.

anyone know of a RIP that has the stochastic halftoning feature?
just found this http://www.grafcoast.com/GRAFCOAST NEW ENGL/retino stocasticoengl.html. seems interesting


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## JeridHill (Feb 8, 2006)

german13 said:


> Thanks Jerid,
> 
> At what shirt count do you think it would be beneficial to go the screen route.. the time/ cost on a dark for dtg adds up quick!! above 50 shirts?


It depends on your setup. Some companies have auto presses with awesome registration systems. They are making screens consistently on a daily basis. So to set up an 8 color job, burning with registration and everything could be an hour or less. When doing it on a manual set up without the registration systems, a 4 color tight registration job could take an hour to register.

It really depends on how good you are at registration and how quick you can work. Personally, I would do a 50 shirt 4 color job in screen printing, but I would charge more for it. It was a discouragement for customers to order, they typically went the smaller color jobs.

DTG and advancement in opaque inkjet materials has led to high end printing with short runs. If you think the DTG route may take too long, consider finding someone who specializes in soft opaque transfers.


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## JeridHill (Feb 8, 2006)

red514 said:


> this sounds like Index..


Same thing. Index creates a stochastic pattern.


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## allamerican-aeoon (Aug 14, 2007)

Jeff,
Wrong place. Go to Screen Printing area will get more help. I will be sad if some one told me I am no good on 4PS or Spot color process. I made great living with doing this many years ago. Mark C is my mentor. Mesh chosen, dot shape, % of dot are easiest part of what you want to achieve. It starts from color separation from computer, film process, thinkness of emulsion coating, angles, enhance or reduce opacity each colors inks, tension of mesh, off contacts, squeegee selections for each color --- endless. There were few people who could create actual skin tone. I was one of them. If anyone could teach you here to you to use in your project by posting here and if it take you to near to dtg quality I will donate NeoFlex for free to him or by cash. Need years of experience and many screw ups will make you go near there. Stick with what you know well is my advise. Sorry I am always positive person but this time I am belong to other side. Send shirts to AA. You can use my demo machine for free in Philly except inks. Welcome to Cheese Steak.
Cheers! Beers are on me always.


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## 102557 (Mar 6, 2010)

allamerican said:


> Jeff,
> Wrong place. Go to Screen Printing area will get more help. I will be sad if some one told me I am no good on 4PS or Spot color process. I made great living with doing this many years ago. Mark C is my mentor. Mesh chosen, dot shape, % of dot are easiest part of what you want to achieve. It starts from color separation from computer, film process, thinkness of emulsion coating, angles, enhance or reduce opacity each colors inks, tension of mesh, off contacts, squeegee selections for each color --- endless. There were few people who could create actual skin tone. I was one of them. If anyone could teach you here to you to use in your project by posting here and if it take you to near to dtg quality I will donate NeoFlex for free to him or by cash. Need years of experience and many screw ups will make you go near there. Stick with what you know well is my advise. Sorry I am always positive person but this time I am belong to other side. Send shirts to AA. You can use my demo machine for free in Philly except inks. Welcome to Cheese Steak.
> Cheers! Beers are on me always.


I posted the question in the screen print forum aswell, didnt get any replies

Appreciate the input/Advice... I have had very good results with screening the simple 1/3 color stuff on the larger orders along with more profit (on black or dark shirts) I see a benefit to both decorating methods..The cost of the pretreat/white ink is a killer on the larger orders with dtg..

Also of late i have had different results with new pretreat it seems it doesnt have the same "stickiness" it had before? I read that theres a different formula now? the stuff i have doesnt seem to give the results i have achieved previously, is there two different pretreat formulas from dupont? and if so who has the original stuff?


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## zoom_monster (Sep 20, 2006)

red514 said:


> this sounds like Index. I 've never dealt with stochastic half-toning before but i thought it was the same concept as halftone patterns, using different sized dots, only the dots where dithered rather then a set pattern.
> 
> with Index, the dots (actually squares) are all the same size depending on the ppi of the image. i do most of my work using 180ppi so they can be easily exposed on 280-300 mesh counts. 200ppi gives a finer detail but you need to use higher mesh counts. The lower the ppi, the more stippled the image looks.
> 
> ...


Yes. Index refers to the color selection. "stochastic" refers to the FM dots rather than AM dots. The best way to think of it is look at a GIF image at the pixel level. You have a limited color palette and a dithered pattern that fools the eye into seeing more colors than are really there. The color mixing is in your brain rather than on the shirt.

You can do stochastic/index right in photoshop and force it to use a specific set of colors. You don't even need a postscript printer or RIP.


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## allamerican-aeoon (Aug 14, 2007)

As I keep saying DTG wins when image is complicated and small orders (1-200). You want to do complicated design. Set up the machine only took me all day some time two days if final looks is not acceptable. It is night and day different with 1-3 spot color and process printing. If all designs are like that dtg will lose it's market place. We all have to collect our ball and go home for dinner.
Cheers! Beers are on me always.
We have not a problem with pretreatment. You can use my pretreat machines too. I do not even know there are other brands. And don't want to. If it is not broke why fix?
My offer is only good next 24hours. lol joke. Let me know.
How many shirts are large order to you? Sounds like you have dark shirts order.
PS: The reason why no one respond to your post in screen printing section is most of them are think as same as I am. Trying to learn this over posting is next impossible. Sorry~


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## 102557 (Mar 6, 2010)

allamerican said:


> As I keep saying DTG wins when image is complicated and small orders (100-200). You want to do complicated design. Set up the machine only took me all day some time two days if final looks is not acceptable. It is night and day different with 1-3 spot color and process printing. If all designs are like that dtg will lose it's market place. We all have to collect our ball and go home for dinner.
> Cheers! Beers are on me always.
> We have not a problem with pretreatment. I do not even know there are other brands. And don't want to. If it in not broke why fix?
> My offer is good next 24hours. lol joke. Let me know.
> ...


What caught my eye were a few vids on youtube.. these guys are obviously good or have good equipt.. the second vid toward the end shows cmyk on black.. I dont have to have a da vinci just something close..lol

CMYK PROCESS SCREEN PRINTING ON T-SHIRTS - YouTube

CMYK 4 Color Process Screen Printing on T-Shirts - YouTube

In regards to the pretreat several people have said dupont has two versions/formulas of the pretreat, the new stuff/ formula is subpar IMHO to the older stuff which is "stickier/tackier".. I will find where i can get the original, i dont care much for this new formula..

a large order for me on darks is over 50 pieces with a dtg, I have someone that i have done work for in the past looking for 200 + on dark (gentlemans club) ... just looking at different print options to maximize profits on darks at the larger numbers......


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## red514 (Jul 21, 2009)

zoom_monster said:


> Yes. Index refers to the color selection. "stochastic" refers to the FM dots rather than AM dots. The best way to think of it is look at a GIF image at the pixel level. You have a limited color palette and a dithered pattern that fools the eye into seeing more colors than are really there. The color mixing is in your brain rather than on the shirt.
> 
> You can do stochastic/index right in photoshop and force it to use a specific set of colors. You don't even need a postscript printer or RIP.


right, i should have said Index uses diffusion dithered pattern. that's the method i most often use. it seems like diffusion dither is a form of stochastic from the definition i've read. not sure what FM and AM dots are, i should look into that part.


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## zoom_monster (Sep 20, 2006)

red514 said:


> right, i should have said Index uses diffusion dithered pattern. that's the method i most often use. it seems like diffusion dither is a form of stochastic from the definition i've read. not sure what FM and AM dots are, i should look into that part.


FM= Frequency (Placement/density)modulated = dither
AM= amplitude (Size) modulated= halftone

The dots that come out of an ink jet are more random (stochastic) but the ink is supposed to overprint, unlike true index, where the colors are supposed to be contained in their own squares.


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## 102557 (Mar 6, 2010)

zoom_monster said:


> FM= Frequency (Placement/density)modulated = dither
> AM= amplitude (Size) modulated= halftone
> 
> The dots that come out of an ink jet are more random (stochastic) but the ink is supposed to overprint, unlike true index, where the colors are supposed to be contained in their own squares.


I notice in accurip.. it askes you how you want it screened and gives you the choice of round,diamond,line,elipse, with these options you can select angle and frequency..

It also gives the option of "user defined FM" this does not give the angle/frequency option.. with user defined fm you have to select your dot size in microns? is this a sqaure dot or index sep? and does it overlay like a halftone or print like an index in sqaures next to each other?

It seems from what i have read the index prints are easier to print but require more colors to print which is not an issue for me but im a little confused on how this actually prints from the rip? is it layering squares on top of each other or is it placing squares next to each other? im assuming the latter because you cant choose an angle or frequency? then theres the question of where the colors are chosen....


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## zoom_monster (Sep 20, 2006)

german13 said:


> I notice in accurip.. it askes you how you want it screened and gives you the choice of round,diamond,line,elipse, with these options you can select angle and frequency..
> 
> It also gives the option of "user defined FM" this does not give the angle/frequency option.. with user defined fm you have to select your dot size in microns? is this a sqaure dot or index sep? and does it overlay like a halftone or print like an index in sqaures next to each other?
> 
> It seems from what i have read the index prints are easier to print but require more colors to print which is not an issue for me but im a little confused on how this actually prints from the rip? is it layering squares on top of each other or is it placing squares next to each other? im assuming the latter because you cant choose an angle or frequency? then theres the question of where the colors are chosen....


If you have perfect film,press registration, screen tension, ink mixing skills, etc, then index is well worth the extra colors. As far as "easier", I would not go that far. The squares are next to each other, never on top. You have to have imaculate registration. The attached PDF should give you a better visual


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## 102557 (Mar 6, 2010)

zoom_monster said:


> If you have perfect film,press registration, screen tension, ink mixing skills, etc, then index is well worth the extra colors. As far as "easier", I would not go that far. The squares are next to each other, never on top. You have to have imaculate registration. The attached PDF should give you a better visual


Im starting to think this is alot of effort for what its worth compared to dtg May just work on perfecting a screened white underbase and dtg colors over.. just using a screen for the simple spot stuff


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## allamerican-aeoon (Aug 14, 2007)

Jeff,
I am glad to see that you see the real world. It is always good to get answers when anybody have a questions. 
I ran Screen Printing School for longest time. At that time only 3 schools were available. SPAI(now SGIA), Scott F and AA. AA had 3 level classes. Now there is none! Except suppliers are teaching basics to equipment buyers. Good English is not necessary to teach Screen Print. . Can you see me teach?  But I did it for long time. Can't count shop numbers I helped set up.
Last SGIA show one guy came over to me and said "Do you remember me?" I was feel sorry that I was not so I said "kind a but not clear, who are you? Do I owe you a money?". He laugh and said "I was in your class long time ago and from that time printing have been my job and now I am working at ThirtyOne as floor manager."
OMG! The company AA wants to build relationship for longest time. I cannot count how many calls and emails and mails were sent.
His name is Kevin xxxxx. Small world. . Now I can walk in
Woman owned Billions dollar company!! They bought 1500 embroidery machines. $20million. Chunk of change to them. Few months back in one shot over what they already have. 1/2 million squire feet in Columbus OH. Thousands of workers. 
Jeff, my offer is in two fold. You can use NeoFlex for your job and if you want to learn real process printing come and work for me least few months. My son Justin C has no interest in Screen Print

Cheers! Beers are on me always.


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## 102557 (Mar 6, 2010)

allamerican said:


> Jeff,
> I am glad to see that you see the real world. It is always good to get answers when anybody have a questions.
> I ran Screen Printing School for longest time. At that time only 3 schools were available. SPAI(now SGIA), Scott F and AA. AA had 3 level classes. Now there is none! Except suppliers are teaching basics to equipment buyers. Good English is not necessary to teach Screen Print. . Can you see me teach?  But I did it for long time. Can't count shop numbers I helped set up.
> Last SGIA show one guy came over to me and said "Do you remember me?" I was feel sorry that I was not so I said "kind a but not clear, who are you? Do I owe you a money?". He laugh and said "I was in your class long time ago and from that time printing have been my job and now I am working at ThirtyOne as floor manager."
> ...


Peter,

I really appreciate the offer, I wish i was closer would take you up on it... My kids influence alot of my decisions regarding the travel, Airfare $ = more expensive than ink... Maybe you will open a branch in chicago someday.. you learn the most from seasoned veterans my ears are always open and willing to learn something new!! you never stop learning, stuff is always changing... If you want to become something, I found by surrounding yourself with those that know it becomes possible fast.. I keep asking questions and more questions..lol prolly drive people crazy cant help it, the brain is like a sponge.. sometimes gets overloaded like the computer and needs defragmenting.. I may look into taking a class at atlas screen supply which is close to me. I have the basic stuff down,you would be surprised, i learn pretty quick... I know the screen print is messy and set up is a pain, but it fits me i need to keep busy im more a mechanical hands on person.. if im not busy i will fall asleep bored to death (attention deficit disorder, hyper active,.. ) after getting the dtg going all is required is pushing buttons and closing the press (boring for me).. However im still hypnotised watching some of the cooler prints

P.S .. It looks like you guys got snow before us?


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## JeridHill (Feb 8, 2006)

When I learned screen printing, I had only ever watched a friend of mine do it. I bought new equipment and taught myself. I'm like you in that regard. I never settled for just getting by, I was wanting to learn as much about it to produce an awesome quality print.

I can say, I don't think anyone should rely on one source of embellishment for shirts. When a shop is diverse in what methods of printing they offer, they have a better chance of doing something quicker, which of course, yields a higher profit margin per hour. So I don't see why it would be a problem to screen print as well, especially on large orders.

But as it's been mentioned already, spot on registration is an absolute must....


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## 102557 (Mar 6, 2010)

JeridHill said:


> When I learned screen printing, I had only ever watched a friend of mine do it. I bought new equipment and taught myself. I'm like you in that regard. I never settled for just getting by, I was wanting to learn as much about it to produce an awesome quality print.
> 
> I can say, I don't think anyone should rely on one source of embellishment for shirts. When a shop is diverse in what methods of printing they offer, they have a better chance of doing something quicker, which of course, yields a higher profit margin per hour. So I don't see why it would be a problem to screen print as well, especially on large orders.
> 
> But as it's been mentioned already, spot on registration is an absolute must....


Im currently just scouring the forums and absorbing all the info possible, then i will make some decisions on the methods.. prolly will mess up quite a few practicing..

I love dtg for the under 50 elaborate stuff on white.. I pretty much got the screen part for the 1-3 spot using the accurip.. I think i will focus on learning the cmyk 4 color process aswell and try to be as good as i can with these two methods!! so i will have dtg, simple spot screen and 4 color process screen this should give me a pretty good way to compete/profit... I tried the heat press transfers, i dont like it much with exception of the plastisol transfers.. I did the sublimation aswell but its to expensive per garment ink cost/shirt etc.. so i will focus on dtg/screen print trying to carve out a market for the up to 200 stuff, i noticed alot of screen printers want the big monster 500,10,000 piece jobs.. i would gladly take these lower screen jobs..


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