# wow, PayPal sucks. Any other suggestions?



## campfire (Oct 8, 2007)

I've had it with PayPal. Someone disputed something I sold them and it has been the worst nightmare in the world. Theur Customer Service sucks. I proved that everything was delivered correctly, but PayPal doesn't care. I don't want them to ever get another penny from me.

Is Google Checkout a viable option?

Any other good options?

thanks!

c


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## cookiesa (Feb 27, 2008)

Same feelings here about paypal! (Sold an X display item, customer complained it wasn't in the original box and didn't have all the hang tags still attached, they were loose in the box when they got it! (claimed it was not as described... no mention of packaging made in description, just that it was an x display and may have some marks)

Anyway there are plenty of payment gateways around, depending on what method your using for selling (eg do you have your own site with a cart set up?) If so you should be able to use one of the main payment gateways just by adding a few settings and activating it (assuming you have signed up for a gateway of course!)

It is worth having a look at a few as the fees vary wildly, some have free setup and some charge around $500 or so. Then you will be charged generally per transaction it will be a percentage, the cheaper the gateway is to "sign" up to then generally the higher the charge per transaction (but usually not bad anyway, especially if you have a low volume)


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## tfalk (Apr 3, 2008)

The unfortunate reality is that pretty much any ecommerce gateway will have the same issues. They all have fees that will kill you on any dispute. The merchant account I have has a $35 charge for all customer initiated chargebacks. Even if they find in my favor, I'm still out the $35 investigation fee. It's tough to deal with when someone disputes a $15 charge...


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## cookiesa (Feb 27, 2008)

The difference is though with gateways the chargeback is from YOUR bank, paypal have their own system for dispute's on top of your banks normal chargeback criteria.

Chargebacks are no different if you have a physical terminal, they can still happen but the customer has to lodge the issue with their bank, not just drop paypal an email


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## T-BOT (Jul 24, 2006)

Their developer board is bad too. Perhaps rodney can give them a few pointers. 


I mean, when you post in the google webmaster help board you get some good tips to fix a problem. On the paypal board, you get 1 cosmtic response if you're lucky. Terrible.




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## campfire (Oct 8, 2007)

I guess what is incredible is some of what has been said on Welcome to PayPalSucks.com, PayPal Lawsuit, PayPal Alternative, PayPal Complaints, Fraud & Evil behind the PayPal system! and what a lot of people already know .... that PayPal went out of their way to make their website and they system difficult to use. They don't want to be bothered. They don't care about their customers. They just want to be left alone.

I am reading a book right now called THE CULTING OF BRANDS and it talks about how dedicated people are to large companies (Harley Davidson, Apple, etc.) and companies appreciate it and encourage their customers and help them, etc.

It goes to show that a large company CAN act like a small business sometimes and be in touch with their customers.

This might sound weird but I LOVE my American Express card. I wil use it every chance I get, and I will not go to a place or walk out of a place that doe snot accept it. Why? Check out their User Agreement. Anytime I have ever had a problem with a merchant or a product, they have got my back. They help out. They are easy to deal with. They care. A camera I had just bought once was stolen. AMEX asked me to get a police report. i did. They reimbursed me for the item and I was able to buy it again. 

They are a great company. There are lots of great companies out there. 

PayPal is disgusting. It is like something out of a science fiction movie.


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## tfalk (Apr 3, 2008)

And just to flip the coin as they say, I'll use paypal but you couldn't pay me to carry an American Distress card. Someone got through their security system and had a new card issued on my wifes account to an address in NY, then proceeded to take out $5000 in cash advances. Since I was an ex-cardholder on the account (I cancelled my card due to their incompetence), they were threatening to put a lock on all my accounts until I paid them back. The last conversation I had with their fraud division, they said the police were on their way to my house to arrest me... Good thing I didn't hold my breath. They finally backed off when the ATM surveillance camera's proved it wasn't me since the perp was a different race.

If you think Amex is vendor friendly, wait until you have a chargeback... Like Visa, they almost always find in favor of the cardholder. Even if you do prevail, it takes weeks to get your money back and you are still out the dispute investigation fee.


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## campfire (Oct 8, 2007)

Hmmmm. All of my good experiences with amex has been as a cardholding customer. Yeah, I now they are probably tough on their vendors. I haven't had to deal with that, thankfully.

But I will say that ANYTIME I had to dispute a charge on my Visa or Discover card I was treated like a criminal. They did not want to listen to the dispute. It was all very generic. And I was lucky if I "won" in the end.

As a result of the bad customer service I have gotten from Via and Discover, I go out of my way to NOT use those cards anytime.

Thank goodness for competition. We need more of it. It keeps everyone in check. 

I was in Prague in 1992 and went into a supermarket and I think they had, i think, one brand of cereal. It probably tasted like poison. After all, why make it better unless there is competition; right?


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## T-BOT (Jul 24, 2006)

Hey fellas,
Remember that Paypal is a middle-man for all credit card transaction, thery are not a bank like Amex Bank of Canada for example. But they are playing the part of a Bank by holding folks money and such. 

Ok, dealing with credit card banks like Amex, when there is dispute, you have full control of defence. With paypalo you do not have full control. Your crontrol of defence is regulated according to paypal rinky-dinky formation (formation, is that a word?) 


Anyways, the new Credit cards here in Europe, you DO NOT SIGN any slips when you use them for a purchase in a store, you simply key in YOUR SECRET CODE. Talk about safety here and the hassle free of having employees check for signature and chargebacks because of FAKE signatures etc...


Bottom line, paypal makes normal hard working merchants feel like Ideotas. 


How about those stupid surveys they send out? 

The worst problem with paypal today is that they are deffff. Look at the statcounter issue.

yes, we know that there are dirt bad clients. But can you image a bad dirt client using ebays and paypalo? horror. 


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## rainbrunn5 (Oct 20, 2008)

the best payment system is the oney that your customers are willing to use.
i would rather have a bad service and unauthorized chargebacks from time to time if you can make more money with it overall.
the right payment system is one of the most critical part of an ecommerce website.
maybe you can try to gently push your customers to a direction that you like more.
you could give a discount when they use other systems, but i would not remove paypal if most of your customers use it.

moneybookers is quite nice as well. but it all depends on the acceptance of your demographics.


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## Shuffy (Sep 3, 2005)

Campfire . . . there are 3 online payment systems in place now that many are using . . Paypal (of course) Google check out . . and the other upcoming system is ProPay . . 

I haven't use propay or google . . . google doesn't not have the sellers protection that the PP has -- and I only know of one person that using Propay in her store with a card reader . . .

my main PP account is almost 9 years old . . . yep . . I have had a few disputes . .. after a few lostes (<-- is that a word? .L*~) . .. I cover "ever" angle I can before hand for those just in cases . . .


NOW about American Ripexpress --- I also have a merchant account/cc machine in my store . .
the hubby took AmEx by mistake . . . the card/charge was accepted . . . well it took over 60 days to get a small biz account set up just to get $31.00+ that was due to be paid to my account . . 

well, guess what . . the buyer got the products . . American Ripexpress -- couldn't find the transaction and the buyer was never charged on her card for what she purchased . . 

so I was out the product and the $$ . . . THEN of Oct 2008 -- the Merch acct was going up . . guess who got cancelled . .. 
there are many peeps that come in my store that used American Ripexpress anyway . . 

I even cancelled the check cashing part of my merchant acct . .. their cost went from $10.00 a month to $29.00 a month . . . I couldn't justify the cost . . . poof got . . 

now, if only I could get around a $60.00 a month business phone line . .. L*~


now the other side of the story . . . my son purchased a NEW computer on ebay . . the computer he rec'd was NOT new -- it was rebuilt . . . 
long story short . . after MONTHS back and forth between seller, paypal, ebay, the police . . 
my son still lost out on a computer and over $1,000.+ 
so he filed police reports in the sellers home town . . and is waiting on a court hearing


Diane
;o)


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## knifemaker3 (Sep 8, 2006)

Welcome to the world of taking credit cards! It's the nature of the beast and why I don't except them. I do accept Paypal on my ebay items and have bought items many times with paypal. Have never had any problems whatsoever.

As for credit cards. I don't take them at the shop simply because of the outragous fees they charge. I'd rather take a bad check to small claims court than deal with credit card companies. Besides that, they don't get no fees off checks and cash. It all stays with ME!!!!

I no I'd get more business if I accepted cards. But I don't have a lot of the hassle and have only had 1 check bounce which the customer when told paid immediately in cash and all was fine. They didn't want to go to small claims court over $10 no more than I did.

You are just going to have to realize that no matter who you choose when it comes to disputes YOU ARE GOING TO LOOSE!

Sorry to be so blunt but that is just the reality of the situation.

Craig


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## Girlzndollz (Oct 3, 2007)

This thread was on *alternatives to credit cards* but credit card fees were discussed.

A few good suggestions came in for better priced good credit card services. Maybe this will help someone find an alternate to Paypal.  

http://www.t-shirtforums.com/business-finance/t63167.html#post374785


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## anonimol (May 7, 2008)

What about giving your bank account number to buyers so they can transfer money?Are you guys afraid to do it? I prefer paypal payments...But i'm not experienced.Anyway i would never give my bank account nr. to anybody...


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## T-BOT (Jul 24, 2006)

anonimol said:


> What about giving your bank account number to buyers so they can transfer money?Are you guys afraid to do it?...


I was until I started working in Europe.

Internet bank transfer payments are really popular here. I find it works goods and instant. These are done via Bank websites.


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## anonimol (May 7, 2008)

Can somebody steal your mony using your account nr?


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## T-BOT (Jul 24, 2006)

anonimol said:


> Can somebody steal your mony using your account nr?


If you are in the Banking Cave Days....i imagine your brother or a close relative may steal your identity to buy a hot dog. 

Account numbers mean nothing when using online banking transfer payment transactions. In other words, your *account #* is not used at all. 

Your banking institution (not sure about the USA) gives you an INTERNATIONAL BANKING NUMBER (IBAN), you then go online and transfer funds as a payment to a IBAN account or receive payments the same way.

In order to complete the transaction, the bank sends you a security code via SMS to imput into the payment form. Im sure this Extra security is to prevent *ILL PEOPLE* from stealing.


I like it because the payment receiver pays ZERO fees.  ...the buyer pays bank fees in some cases, about 75 cents per bank transfer.


btw: Outside of the UK in all of Europe, very small amount of people use Paypal comparing to the massive amount of people using this banking transfer payment i mentioned.

Another thing that I was impressed with was the fact that you go to a bank machine, you can select the phone/web provider from a list (like Vodaphone, TMN etc.) and pay right there...also pay online. Via bank transfers.

No credit cards needed.
No future debts to worrie about.


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## Girlzndollz (Oct 3, 2007)

anonimol said:


> Can somebody steal your mony using your account nr?


 
You bet they can!! It happened to me. 

Someone took my checking account number, went to a Staples, made up *checks* with my account number and went shopping at a Walmart in Atlanta, to the tune of $2K, taken right out of my account over a 2 day time span. Yep, not once did they get away with it, but TWICE!

Gotta love it. I asked if they put their own name or my name on the checks. HA! No one knows as the system Walmart uses at that store just requires they run the check thru the check machine. Then they *hand the check back* to the purchaser, who walks out the door with it. 

So, there is no copy of the check, and whether or not an ID check is done is up to the cashier at the time. 

Oh yes! Someone surely can fraud your bank account with your checking number.


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## T-BOT (Jul 24, 2006)

Girlzndollz said:


> You bet they can!! It happened to me.
> 
> .......Oh yes! Someone surely can fraud your bank account with your checking number.


thats crazy terrible.  ...im not refering you your HAD, thats not funny, but how it was done. Staples making illigal banking instruments...crazy. Then the wlmarco cashier and friend scam...even crazier.



no wonder banks are closing up there, man why do they use checks at places like wallymart? crazy i tell you.

How did you end up?


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## Girlzndollz (Oct 3, 2007)

T-BOT said:


> thats crazy terrible.  ...im not refering you your HAD, thats not funny, but how it was done.


Yeah, it was quite a scare and a *twilight zone* moment when I signed on to reconcile my account and there was nothing there to pay my bills with. Anyway, it's a very creepy feeling and I hope none of you ever have to experience it.



> Staples making illigal banking instruments...crazy.


From how they explained it to me, the person made it up themselves. I had no idea one could do this. I can't imagine why on Earth anyone would be allowed to create a check in an office store setting. I thought they were some *official* documents of some kind. It really messed with my mind that this can be done. 



> Then the wlmarco cashier and friend scam...even crazier.


Yeah, you know, it hadn't occured to me they could have been friends. They didn't need to be, bc all that needed to happen was the cashier not check id... but you know, I don't even know what name they put on the check. No one could tell me. It could have been their own name with my checking acct number. No way to know, but you could be spot on, they could have known each other.



> no wonder banks are closing up there, man why do they use checks at places like wallymart? crazy i tell you.


I see people pay with checks at our local Walmart pretty often. The grocery store, too. I never thought much of it, it's kind of normal around here.



> How did you end up?


Well, the bank took 3 days to verify the fraud, and replaced the money. We opened a new account. 

Credit card fraud is much easier to deal with because your actual cash is safe (but not really, no fraud is better.)

At least with credit card fraud, there is a bogus charge on the credit card, you don't pay it, and then the credit card company wipes it out. I prefer to pay everything I can by credit card these days, and pay that off at month's end. 

Well, the moral of the story is there are no morals when it comes to fraudsters.  

Have a nice rest of the weekend.


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## CUSTOM UK (Jun 28, 2008)

Most reputable payment gateways will offer customers using their service some sort of protection and PayPal is no exception. 

I use PayPal as the sole means of payment on all of my web sites and sell my products all over the world. Most of my suppliers also accept PayPal and it allows me to buy items knowing that I am covered in any eventuality.

The majority of traders are honest, or nobody could do business. Consumers need to have confidence when they buy products from complete strangers over the internet and payment gateways such as PayPal are there to provide that assurance.

I myself have had to put two claims with PayPal during the last few weeks. One for a business that still hadn't sent a recorded delivery item after three weeks and didn't respond to any emails and another for an EBay item that was claimed to be in full working order, but was in fact defective. Without PayPal those would have involved process through the legal system, in the small claims court.

Most countries have legislation in place, where banks and payment processors are required to offer legal protection to users of their service.


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