# Mod 1 vs NeoFlex



## Sun Turtle

We are going to ISS Orlando in a few weeks and will be purchasing either the Mod 1 or NeoFlex. Your opinions are greatly appreciated! We've seen the Mod 1 in action and were headed in that direction until we discovered the NeoFlex with it's larger print area and solvent and textile ink change ability. Now we're not sure if the Mod 1 has enough flexibility. Can anyone that uses either comment on the following?
1 Versatility

2 Ease of Maintenance

3 Reliability/Problems

4 Technical Support

5 Ease of Use and learning curve needed

6 Software


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## TahoeTomahawk

We shopped for a new printer at the Long Beach show 2010.

At that time, we felt the MOD1 had the easiest maintenance of the machines we saw, because of the way it is built.
Now after owning it for a year, it looks new. Our Kiosks look thrashed, mainly because of the way it's built, there is no easy way to keep it clean.

For reliability, although we were open to seeing other machines that were on the bottled Ink, and the Brother than was using carts, we were pretty set on using Bagged Ink because of the way it eliminated problems on our Kiosks. Luckily, the MOD1 already uses bagged inks so that was a big selling point.
Our machine is a year old and still prints like new. Our kiosks have been running on the same print head since 09' and still puddles ink. Prior to Bagged Ink we were changing print heads every 2 - 5 months, and they would steadily get worse as for as ink coverage.

The MOD also has great registration, and we've been able to save a few prints because of the ball-index system. Working late hours, sometimes you can accidentally pull the shirt out after the white later .. when the happens on the Kiosk, if you put the shirt back there is no way you will get it to line up.
We've done this many times on the MOD and have never lost a shirt.

We haven't really needed tech support, mainly just for software questions.
The software is a bit different than we were used to as it has a Queue Manager that manages the layers. Honestly we weren't sure what the need for it was since the iproof Rip handles that as well, but we soon found out when we had batch orders. The queue manager is a simple interface to replicate 1 or more prints very easily.

The only downside of the printer is it's a 13" wide printer and occasionally we have to turn customers away who need larger prints, but that is still very rare.


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## IYFGraphics

Sun Turtle said:


> Can anyone that uses either comment on the following?
> 1 Versatility
> 
> 2 Ease of Maintenance
> 
> 3 Reliability/Problems
> 
> 4 Technical Support
> 
> 5 Ease of Use and learning curve needed
> 
> 6 Software


I'll give you an opinion, nothing real world since we don't own either printers but are looking at both along with a few others.

#1.....I think the Neo wins hands down, if you have a need for the solvent based printing solution it does add a lot to the value of the print system

#2....I think the Mod-1 would win that one since it's been stated many times that it was designed from the ground up with ease of maintenance in mind.

#3....I think both being Epson based systems, both using bagged ink (the Mod with Belquetts bagged ink system) and the Neo using cartridges that contain a bag of ink, both would rate very high in reliability, both are very heavy duty printers built to last.

#4....As with any DTG printer regardless of brand/type training is essential in being successful, the Mod-1 and Neo-Flex are no different in that regard, I think both companies would rate high in training and tech support. 

#5.....This is where it gets difficult, both have great RIP programs that are constantly evolving which is a great thing, new features and abilities have been and are planned to be added to both of the RIP programs, as to which one is easiest to use...I have no clue, but from what I have read both are what I would call advanced RIP programs that offer many options and controls, since both are feature rich and still evolving I think either would be more than adequate for most users.

As I stated above I do not own either printer, I'm merely stating my opinion from what I have read on both print systems.

Hope this helps.


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## TahoeTomahawk

IYFGraphics said:


> I'll give you an opinion, nothing real world since we don't own either printers but are looking at both along with a few others.
> 
> #1.....I think the Neo wins hands down, if you have a need for the solvent based printing solution it does add a lot to the value of the print system


I'm pretty sure you can swap out the Print Module on the MOD1 for a solvent printer as well. 

Maybe someone can fill us in?


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## IYFGraphics

TahoeTomahawk said:


> I'm pretty sure you can swap out the Print Module on the MOD1 for a solvent printer as well.
> 
> Maybe someone can fill us in?


Really?.....that will keep Peter up at night...LOL

Thanks Adam, I'd be interested in hearing about it also, that is kind of a game changer, if only the Mod had a wider print area or at least matched the Neo-Flex, still both are great print platforms IMHO.


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## Rodney

> Your opinions are greatly appreciated!


There's also some great user opinions posted about both machines in their respective areas of the forum here: NeoFlex - T-Shirt Forums

and here: Belquette - T-Shirt Forums


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## Stitch-Up

TahoeTomahawk said:


> I'm pretty sure you can swap out the Print Module on the MOD1 for a solvent printer as well.
> 
> Maybe someone can fill us in?


The NeoSol printer has a dedicated printer for solvent so no flushing of ink lines required, plus, it has a built in heater to dry the inks. Also, a suction accessory fitted to the bed holds the substrate in place.

Simply disconnect 3 cables, lift the textile printer off, lift solvent on, make good the 3 cables and 'voila' - time taken, 5 minutes max  now you have a solvent printer & same RIP does the business.


Best of both worlds:

Textile & Solvent









A lot of balls 









Opens up great opportunities.



IYFGraphics said:


> Really?.....that will keep Peter up at night...LOL


He hasn't even turned over in bed


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## JeridHill

TahoeTomahawk said:


> I'm pretty sure you can swap out the Print Module on the MOD1 for a solvent printer as well.
> 
> Maybe someone can fill us in?


Yes it can. The swapping of the module can be done by one person in under 5 minutes. That being said, I don't think we have anyone with this option as of now, I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong . Our customers have been focused on garments.


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## vinyl signs

On the MOD and Neoflex, this means you have to purchase another modular correct?

How does one keep heads from drying out when not in use? I guess you have to flush ink correct?


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## JeridHill

vinyl signs said:


> On the MOD and Neoflex, this means you have to purchase another modular correct?
> 
> How does one keep heads from drying out when not in use? I guess you have to flush ink correct?


If it would sit for an extended period of time, yes. The white ink in the garment printers will cause problems quicker than the eco-solvent inks.


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## 102557

I have a question regarding using the same base and switching printers between solvent and waterbase.. If you are running a t-biz wouldnt using one printer base affect production of one or the other promotional items/tees...

I guess this comes down to volume? if your running pretty steady with tees can you afford to take it off line to do promo items, and is there a large enough demand/profit for the promo items to warrant it!!!

Inquiring minds want to know from those that do both t's/promo items


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## vinyl signs

I would also like to know about color profiles? How is this being handled? Printing on different type of rigid materials using different inks require different color profiles! How is this handled? How do you profile your own set-up with these DTG RIPs?


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## JeridHill

german13 said:


> I have a question regarding using the same base and switching printers between solvent and waterbase.. If you are running a t-biz wouldnt using one printer base affect production of one or the other promotional items/tees...
> 
> I guess this comes down to volume? if your running pretty steady with tees can you afford to take it off line to do promo items, and is there a large enough demand/profit for the promo items to warrant it!!!
> 
> Inquiring minds want to know from those that do both t's/promo items


Some people run shirts xx days and other items the other days. As for promotional products, it's an extremely huge market, look up ASI.




vinyl signs said:


> I would also like to know about color profiles? How is this being handled? Printing on different type of rigid materials using different inks require different color profiles! How is this handled? How do you profile your own set-up with these DTG RIPs?


With solvent based inks, you print on white. You print on a surface that doesn't absorb like fabric, so the profiling is not an issue.


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## DAGuide

A lot of the solvent printers use all 8-channels in the same ink setup as the Epson. So you can use Photoshop to send the ICC profile to the printer using the Epson driver. Some will have a RIP that you will need to change a setting letting it know to use the solvent ink profiles. So it really depends on the printer you get.

As for the promo items, it really depends on your market. I have seen a lot of photographers do pretty well printing on larger sheets of metal. However, trying to print 50 golf balls or so might be hard to justified the time to switch over from one to another unless you can charge a premium amount for such a small piece of artwork on them. A lot of the dtg manufacturers early on offered a golf ball platen as an option. However, most dtg users I spoke to found it difficult to make good money off of selling a novelty item. Some did okay trying to create packages or baskets of items. Just really depends on your market and what your customer is willing to pay for.

Mark


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## DAGuide

JeridHill said:


> As for promotional products, it's an extremely huge market, look up ASI.


Not sure that the majority of items done in the promotional products industry (ASI is just a vendor / for-profit association) are printed with solvent direct printers. Most of the stuff that I see is done with other printing devices (i.e. pad printing, screen printing, offset,...) that can print a much larger quantity of items in a shorter period of time. With the increased ability for end users to source these items via the internet, the margins on these products has dropped as well.

Just my opinion based on my observations. I did miss the Orlando ASI two weeks ago, so things might be different or changing now.

Mark


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## IYFGraphics

german13 said:


> I have a question regarding using the same base and switching printers between solvent and waterbase.. If you are running a t-biz wouldnt using one printer base affect production of one or the other promotional items/tees...
> 
> I guess this comes down to volume? if your running pretty steady with tees can you afford to take it off line to do promo items, and is there a large enough demand/profit for the promo items to warrant it!!!
> 
> Inquiring minds want to know from those that do both t's/promo items



IMHO you are correct, it all has to do with volume or utilization, for our business we don't really print everyday (I'd guess a lot of folks do) but we tend to gang small order together and print them all at the same time, larger orders are another story since to do 100's of shirts we are talking several days production if they are darks and require pertreat, underbase, and front and back printing.

The option with the NEO is that if you find yourself in a position like that where you are constantly stopping garment production to do solvent printing, you do have the option of buying another base and having two totally separate print systems....I'd guess the Mod-1 would offer the same flexibility?

The other aspect for us is that our garment printing services only amount to 30-40% of our total sales we have other processes that we do to fill the void.

JMHO


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## 102557

I know that direct color systems makes a solvent printer for these promo items (1324)..

I thought a separate printer for each would be more logical?, but what do i know I know just dealing with the t-s is a task in itself and then adding the promo items to the same base would seem even more daunting..

its got me very curious, i have just never read here of the promo items being a huge gig! maybe thats another forum? but interesting to say the least!!!


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## JeridHill

DAGuide said:


> Not sure that the majority of items done in the promotional products industry (ASI is just a vendor / for-profit association) are printed with solvent direct printers. Most of the stuff that I see is done with other printing devices (i.e. pad printing, screen printing, offset,...) that can print a much larger quantity of items in a shorter period of time. With the increased ability for end users to source these items via the internet, the margins on these products has dropped as well.
> 
> Just my opinion based on my observations. I did miss the Orlando ASI two weeks ago, so things might be different or changing now.
> 
> Mark


I agree, most smaller items are pad printed or screen printed. It depends on what you want to do. In all honesty, I think it's more of a novelty than anything. Our customers don't want the solvent based systems because like you said, it's probably more of hassle for small orders to switch over.


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## Stitch-Up

I don't have a clue how much a golf ball costs and I'm not a fan or a player - don't really like the sport BUT, here in the UK, it's huge.

Many firms of lawyers and accountants regularly organise golf days for their clients. I'm unsure if this is an easy market to sell too - nice touch though & hardly any ink used, quick to print 49 on the platen pictured above. I guess if the clients are all crap at golf and lose their balls, the market gets bigger 

John


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## vinyl signs

Well I am in the sign business and I can tell you that just because you are printing onto a white substrate there is a lot of color profiling being done to get the final out-put to be correct! Just print on a true white sheet and then on an antique white sheet and look at the colors they will not be the same!


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## JeridHill

vinyl signs said:


> Well I am in the sign business and I can tell you that just because you are printing onto a white substrate there is a lot of color profiling being done to get the final out-put to be correct! Just print on a true white sheet and then on an antique white sheet and look at the colors they will not be the same!


Even so, you are profiling more for colors and not so much the substrate. Sure there would be variables, but not as much as one would think. Mark also made a good point about using the normal Epson drivers as well.


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## jdoug5170

german13 said:


> I have a question regarding using the same base and switching printers between solvent and waterbase.. If you are running a t-biz wouldnt using one printer base affect production of one or the other promotional items/tees...
> 
> I guess this comes down to volume? if your running pretty steady with tees can you afford to take it off line to do promo items, and is there a large enough demand/profit for the promo items to warrant it!!!
> 
> Inquiring minds want to know from those that do both t's/promo items


My opinion is that the Neoflex gives you the opportunity to build your business in both apparel and the promo products with less initial investment. When you business grows to a point that the printing of one or the other becomes full time, you can always just pick up a new base. 

I don't know any other ecosolv flatprint that you can pick up in this price range and certainly not with the type of support and quarantee that the NeoFlex folks provide.


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## TahoeTomahawk

jdoug5170 said:


> My opinion is that the Neoflex gives you the opportunity to build your business in both apparel and the promo products with less initial investment. When you business grows to a point that the printing of one or the other becomes full time, you can always just pick up a new base.
> 
> I don't know any other ecosolv flatprint that you can pick up in this price range and certainly not with the type of support and quarantee that the NeoFlex folks provide.


Both the NeoFlex and MOD1 can switch out the print module if you have the need to go from water-based to solvent.


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## TahoeTomahawk

I can see the potential for print shops that do large batch orders. You could have a print module with CMYK + W, and a second one for Dual CMYK, that would be nice.


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## 102557

TahoeTomahawk said:


> I can see the potential for print shops that do large batch orders. You could have a print module with CMYK + W, and a second one for Dual CMYK, that would be nice.


Amen to that thought.. i agree

Or some type of quick switch ink system.. would be cheaper

why not make the printer solvent capable from the start, and a quick ink change system for the promo product folks-another cheaper option? convert from ecosolve bags to water base bag system by just changing damper carts out? just a thought


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## JeridHill

german13 said:


> Amen to that thought.. i agree
> 
> Or some type of quick switch ink system.. would be cheaper
> 
> why not make the printer solvent capable from the start, and a quick ink change system for the promo product folks-another cheaper option? convert from ecosolve bags to water base bag system by just changing damper carts out? just a thought


The printhead would most likely be toast. You don't want to mix solvent and waterbased inks at all.


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## 102557

JeridHill said:


> The printhead would most likely be toast. You don't want to mix solvent and waterbased inks at all.


 
thats easy to fix also include the print head to snap in with the quick change system... still much cheaper?

this method would bring it back to engineered product instead of switching whole printers, like a carriage change out of sorts


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## JeridHill

german13 said:


> thats easy to fix also include the print head to snap in with the quick change system... still much cheaper?
> 
> this method would bring it back to engineered product instead of switching whole printers, like a carriage change out


Looks like you got your next project..... As a side note, the beauty of the modularity is if anything goes wrong internally, you can be back up and running right away by swapping the module. And it can be UPS'd overnight if necessary, much cheaper than having a tech on site.


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## 102557

JeridHill said:


> Looks like you got your next project..... As a side note, the beauty of the modularity is if anything goes wrong internally, you can be back up and running right away by swapping the module.


no thanks.. im sticking to shirts for the time being!! would be cool to see a manufacturer do this although!!! go wrong? nothing should go wrong


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## JeridHill

If I'm not mistaken, I believe I heard Mark mention this once upon a time. It's not on the table as far as I know, but the thought most likely crossed his mind. Mark??


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## JeridHill

Oh and not to mention the capping station and exit tubing.....


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## 102557

JeridHill said:


> If I'm not mistaken, I believe I heard Mark mention this once upon a time. It's not on the table as far as I know, but the thought most likely crossed his mind. Mark??


he probably knows the market isnt there for it? Im guessing


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## TahoeTomahawk

german13 said:


> thats easy to fix also include the print head to snap in with the quick change system... still much cheaper?
> 
> this method would bring it back to engineered product instead of switching whole printers, like a carriage change out of sorts


I guess you could probably do that now, I mean all you would have to do is disconnect the Ink lines from the dampers and cap them. 2 screws hold the cable chain to the print head ... remove all the ink lines and swap them out with the second set of lines.

It's doable, but I think most of the time will be spent flushing the print head out completely before putting the new inks on it.. although you would limit the wasted ink because you are not flushing all of the lines, just the head.

I feel like a 2nd module is relatively cheap to have as a second printer though so I probably wouldn't spend the time flushing the head.


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## JeridHill

Adam, you would have to disconnect anything at all that has ink. So bye bye capping station and exit tubing as well. I'm just sayin.....


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## Sun Turtle

Wow you guys aren't making this any easier. What is the advantage of the print head moving vs the table moving? Any user thoughts? Nobody has talked about the time spent on maintence of the textile ink printhead on either machine. Does the maintence time spent run about the same for both machines?


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## jdoug5170

For me it is the ease of being able to load shirts while the printer is printing another one, keep production going. My cnc router had twin tables and it never stopped making money because of it. Much better than our other router that had a single table.

Doug


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## 102557

jdoug5170 said:


> For me it is the ease of being able to load shirts while the printer is printing another one, keep production going. My cnc router had twin tables and it never stopped making money because of it. Much better than our other router that had a single table.
> 
> Doug


you can do the same by having multiple platens!! without moving all the weight of the printer! i dont see the a big advantage either way really!!


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## JeridHill

Sun Turtle said:


> Does the maintence time spent run about the same for both machines?


Five minutes a day on the Mod1.


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## Stitch-Up

The MOD1 was one of the printers I looked at when I was compiling my shortlist but, it didn't figure as, at the time, you wouldn't ship to the UK. Is that still the case?


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## 102557

Lets call it a draw/tie

both obviously very good products!! think it comes down to preference/business model!!

Both owners obviously very active on the forum showcasing/defending there product.. it shows alot of there prospective character and the passion for there product and what you can expect in regards of customer service.. they could both very easily have someone else do the dirty work and they could just count there money.. neither do this

best wishes to both!!!!! maybe one day i can afford a fancy one!!!


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## IYFGraphics

Sun Turtle said:


> Wow you guys aren't making this any easier. What is the advantage of the print head moving vs the table moving? Any user thoughts? Nobody has talked about the time spent on maintence of the textile ink printhead on either machine. Does the maintence time spent run about the same for both machines?


The print head/module moving vs moving platen system is basically production time, all those seconds loading/unloading a platen while the print head is waiting on you cost production time, with 20 shirts it isn't that big a deal but if your talking a few 100 shirts then all those seconds turn into minuets of lost production time.

The best possible world in DTG printing would be that the printer can finish a shirt faster then you and cure the last printed shirt, if you move the bottle neck in printing from the printer to the heat press a second heat press will be required to keep up with then printer.....as dumb as it sounds this is a good thing.

The quicker you can produce shirts, the more per hour, the cost per shirt can go down, sure your fixed costs stay the same ie shirt cost, pretreatment, and ink, but the labor costs will fall as production goes up....this all adds up to more profit per hour of printing.

As far as maintenance...both are Epson based printers, both will require the same level of maintenance, and I'd say regardless of printer we are only talking minuets per day spent in maintaining the printer

One other item.....both of these printers are $20k+, you have to ask yourself to you have existing business to justify spending this type of capital investment? Do you have existing customers who are willing to pay a premium for a DTG printed shirt? If your building a business around a DTG printer it will be a up hill battle carving out a market, if you don't already have the customers willing to buy, while the ability to do one-offs is great you can't pay for a DTG printer doing one-offs unless you have a market that is willing to pay $30-$50 a shirt all day long every day of the week.

To me the real money in DTG printing is in large quantities of the same print (think screen printing) which brings you back to production time....it's all relevant in making money with any DTG printer.

JMHO


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## allamerican-aeoon

I don't mean to all disappeared from here. German, I am semi retired not major owner anymore. My son is the one who runs show. He cannot find the time as me or maybe he is watching me I am sure. But when weather gets better I am out you will not see me often here (i hear many are cheering). Golf, Fishing, Traveling, dinning/drinking, forum (last). He the one who will compete with all DTG sellers now and in future. I really proud of him (tell me which father does not, haha). He have all which I never had. English, Education, Royal co-workers, Energy, IQ (much higher than me) and money.
He show me next 5yrs plan which shocked me and he ask me go west like cowboy and ask me to watch for his AA2 in LA. I said NO WAY. I did my share. I am here because I like this industry and make lots of friends easily and when I am stuck at home this is the best relaxing. If anyone thinks I am devoting person then you did not meet him yet. I will be in Orlando please please say hello to me. Does't take much to make old man happy. Love you all. Beers are on me always.


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## Rodney

Some great posts in this thread! Since the question is about which printer to choose, it's probably best that the opinions come from members who don't have a financial interest in saying which machine is best  We know the vendors/distributors will feel their machine is the best ​


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## Stitch-Up

I completed an order of 70 shirts all with same image on the Neoflex. I have 2 heat presses and I have to say the ability to remove printed and load the next shirt while the printing continues is a joy.

I was knackered at the end of it because the process was non-stop  However, this is how you'd want it to be in a busy shirt print shop.

PS. And I'm older than Peter - not much though!


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## TahoeTomahawk

Good point about the platens for production efficiency.

We invested in multiple platens for each of our Kiosks years back. The downtime between prints doesn't really matter when you are doing one-offs, but when doing batch runs, 45 seconds to a minute and a half can really add up.

Platen loading was a very big concern for us when we were shopping for a new printer, we already had in our mind that we were going to use multiple platens, so those machines that had platens attached to the bed were immediately written off.

We didn't find a machine that was easier to load and unload than the MOD1. Not only is the bed easily accessible, there is no measuring what-so-ever. Just drop the platen on the bed and the metal balls under the platen align themselves.
Down-time between shirts is on average 15 seconds for us, where it's about 1 min on the Kiosk.


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## 102557

allamerican said:


> German. Are you you German German? who lives in EU? If so Justin will be there soon support distributor's show. I wish you guys can get together. Drink German beer!! I was there last Oct'.
> 
> IVF, Your point of justify investment has lots of sense. But sometime too many measuring makes never reach to glory or launching any. I told my son "Find the green in desert not the sand" find sand is too easy to all. everyone vs someone.
> I suggest turtle to think "what is my maximum damage when I fail? "Will I be finished and bankrupt?". "Am I confident enough to sell my shirts well?". "Will I get money back on Printer if that was failure reason?". Your payment per month (on lease) is around $400 plus minus with no money down. Works 20days per month. $400/20= $20/day profit is must + utility + labor. If anyone do not see you can pass this calculation "DON'T STRAT". "Are you young enough to take all challengs?""have energy?""different idea than others?" Do not fight with pricing please. I am leaving here until exciting start again. Beers are on me always, Cheers!


 
Yes, to German nationality. actually German/Swede.. last name is (German) literally..

*German= best inventors in the world"*

I live in the united states however, just outside chicago...

If your talking about Justin W.. your in good hands he has the dtg experience + literary genious...
and i prefer Corona!! not much of a drinker although

P.S I have a Prophecy for you: the first large manufacturer with good support that adds a manual return dtg (desk top model) with multiple platens for just under 5000 to there current lineup (becomes well liked and very rich) and I have a design for you..

best of luck on your ventures!!!


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## cavedave

Printing on to substrates (even when they are white) with solvent ink requires just as much print mode work as t-shirts to get the right color.

They both really need a RIP, as you need to be able to control the ink volumes, as well as ICC etc.... Those that use the Epson driver dont get reliable results.
On a T-shirt we increase the ink volumes to there max in order to get the required ink volumes for a cotton shirt and on most substrates with solvent you need to do the opersite and ink back from what Epson would normally do and print slow as the ink bleeds often and the slower you go the more ink you can put down and better colours.

So its just as important to create goor print modes for direct to substrate as it is for a t-shirt.

Beside there is also the option on some machines such as DCS to add white or clear (which acts as a protection).

Best regards

-David


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## IYFGraphics

allamerican said:


> IVF, Your point of justify investment has lots of sense. But sometime too many measuring makes never reach to glory or launching any. I told my son "Find the green in desert not the sand" find sand is too easy to all. everyone vs someone.
> I suggest turtle to think "what is my maximum damage when I fail? "Will I be finished and bankrupt?". "Am I confident enough to sell my shirts well?". "Will I get money back on Printer if that was failure reason?". Your payment per month (on lease) is around $400 plus minus with no money down. Works 20days per month. $400/20= $20/day profit is must + utility + labor. If anyone do not see you can pass this calculation "DON'T STRAT". "Are you young enough to take all challengs?""have energy?""different idea than others?" Do not fight with pricing please.


Peter,

Your job is to sell print systems, mine is to use the equipment to create an item I can sell at a profit, both of us know what we need to do to make money and cover our expenses......but, when someone who doesn't own a DTG printer asks for advice even in this case where it's comparing two print systems it would be wrong in my mind not to advise them of all aspects of the DTG printing industry.

While $400 a month lease payment seems reasonable as far as cost goes, to take on $400 a month in debt for years a business must first be making much more then that in profit per month before they choose to take on that debt, in my mind you need a market for the product, while it's adventurous to be a trail blazer and go where no one has gone before with your business plan it can also be a recipe for disaster....planning is everything in business to be successful.

It's All American's job to sell print systems, but once that print system is sold the hard work begins of making the purchase pay for itself and generate a profit for the buyer. When we bought our DTG printer no one asked us if we had customers, if we had a market to sell DTG prints in, or even if we thought we could turn a profit with the printer...the distributor of print systems wither it be AA, EZ, Belquette, SWF or Brother etc care little if their customer has the right stuff to be successful in the DTG business, it's not their job to be concern with that aspect....only sell/support their print systems.

My point is.....as a member of TSF I feel when asked for an opinion I should give a honest opinion, not sugar coated, or even politically correct you can get those answers from the people selling the printers, but an honest opinion sometimes is hard to find.

But then again this is just my humble opinion.


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## Justin Walker

vinyl signs said:


> On the MOD and Neoflex, this means you have to purchase another modular correct?
> 
> How does one keep heads from drying out when not in use? I guess you have to flush ink correct?


The additional head units on the NeoFlex are about $5,000 each, if I remember correctly... This makes it far more affordable to buy two top units and one base (rather than two entire units for close to $20k each), allowing you to get the most out of your system. I have two head units and two base units, so our's does not spend time sitting, but I do remember there were some basic procedures for when you wanted to swap out units - for instance, there is a little gear you turn that is supposed to "seal" the print head to the capping station; they recommend placing a solution in the capping station, lowering the print head then setting the unit aside. I am sure someone who has both units could explain this a little more thoroughly (or, maybe that's all there is to it.... Who knows?)


----------



## JeridHill

IYFGraphics said:


> if we had a market to sell DTG prints in, or even if we thought we could turn a profit with the printer...the distributor of print systems wither it be AA, EZ, Belquette, SWF or Brother etc care little if their customer has the right stuff to be successful in the DTG business, it's not their job to be concern with that aspect....only sell/support their print systems.


I disagree with this in a way. Although it might not be our job, I personally talk to my customers and help give them ideas in gaining jobs. They oftentimes bounce ideas off of me and I give them my opinion. If you read a different post on here you'll see we even gave a customer a deposit back because we didn't want him buying a machine with no knowledge of the industry and no customer base. We discussed with him a more inexpensive start up route and after a year see where he's at. Maybe it's not our job to do this, but if we take the time, there's more chance of success for the customer, and that's a win win situation.


----------



## VBGrafx

Can anyone give me the deminsions of both machines. Plus how much room you need TOTAL to opperate both machines?


----------



## JeridHill

VBGrafx said:


> Can anyone give me the deminsions of both machines. Plus how much room you need TOTAL to opperate both machines?


The Base on the Mod1 is about 14"x40". There's a Y that comes out and it has an adjustable bar depending on your area. I have mine set to 24" total, but it can go lower than that.

That being said, I have a 3'x5' table that I have a Mod1 and a computer on. Then to the side of me, I have 1 heat press and to the back of me, 1 heat press. My total area is about 5'x8', nothing too much.


----------



## FatKat Printz

JeridHill said:


> The Base on the Mod1 is about 14"x40". There's a Y that comes out and it has an adjustable bar depending on your area. I have mine set to 24" total, but it can go lower than that.
> 
> That being said, I have a 3'x5' table that I have a Mod1 and a computer on. Then to the side of me, I have 1 heat press and to the back of me, 1 heat press. My total area is about 5'x8', nothing too much.


What are you working in a broom closet???


----------



## kevrokr

FatKat Printz said:


> What are you working in a broom closet???


Ha!! Now that's funny. I've actually set-up Mod1s in tight spaces like that.


----------



## IYFGraphics

JeridHill said:


> I disagree with this in a way. Although it might not be our job, I personally talk to my customers and help give them ideas in gaining jobs. They oftentimes bounce ideas off of me and I give them my opinion. If you read a different post on here you'll see we even gave a customer a deposit back because we didn't want him buying a machine with no knowledge of the industry and no customer base. We discussed with him a more inexpensive start up route and after a year see where he's at. Maybe it's not our job to do this, but if we take the time, there's more chance of success for the customer, and that's a win win situation.


Jerid,

I read the post and it's admirable that a vendor takes that kind of position with a potential customer, I also have read before where Belquette wants to make sure that a customer buying a Mod-1 is getting what they need in a printer, that if it's not a fit they would rather not sell it to you which is also admirable...but you must admit it isn't the norm in the garment decorating industry.

I have no qualm with any vendor, a customer who wants to plop down $20k for a piece of equipment hopefully has done his homework and knows what they are doing not buying on impulse.....but here in the forum where new folks come for advice, not knowing who the vendors/players are and seeking opinions, as I said I'd feel dishonest if I didn't mention what they are in for or what they should be thinking, or the direction they should consider heading, not that I'm a big brain because I'm not, but if you bang your head against a wall long enough some things do soak in. LOL!

BTW...I will say that of all the companies I've dealt with in the last few years you folks (Belquette) seem to be one of the very few that has a conscience when it comes to your customers....and again that is admirable.

Again I meant no disrespect to any vendor, if you try to steer your customers to the right choice/fit that is great, but as I said it's not really your job to do so.

JMHO


----------



## TahoeTomahawk

IYFGraphics said:


> Jerid,
> 
> I read the post and it's admirable that a vendor takes that kind of position with a potential customer, I also have read before where Belquette wants to make sure that a customer buying a Mod-1 is getting what they need in a printer, that if it's not a fit they would rather not sell it to you which is also admirable...but you must admit it isn't the norm in the garment decorating industry.
> 
> I have no qualm with any vendor, a customer who wants to plop down $20k for a piece of equipment hopefully has done his homework and knows what they are doing not buying on impulse.....but here in the forum where new folks come for advice, not knowing who the vendors/players are and seeking opinions, as I said I'd feel dishonest if I didn't mention what they are in for or what they should be thinking, or the direction they should consider heading, not that I'm a big brain because I'm not, but if you bang your head against a wall long enough some things do soak in. LOL!
> 
> BTW...I will say that of all the companies I've dealt with in the last few years you folks (Belquette) seem to be one of the very few that has a conscience when it comes to your customers....and again that is admirable.
> 
> Again I meant no disrespect to any vendor, if you try to steer your customers to the right choice/fit that is great, but as I said it's not really your job to do so.
> 
> JMHO


Jon, I totally agree. They've been amazing at helping us Kiosk Owners get back up and running, when they didn't have to.

They are stand up folks, and I like doing business with companies like this.


----------



## IYFGraphics

TahoeTomahawk said:


> Jon, I totally agree. They've been amazing at helping us Kiosk Owners get back up and running, when they didn't have to.
> 
> They are stand up folks, and I like doing business with companies like this.


Thanks Adam....I know this isn't the place but what the heck....Welcome to the Black Shirt Club....you wear it well.


----------



## idonaldson

So at the end of the day am I buying a Neo, Mod1, or Viper. If I am starting something all over again - PM me. And yes, I read from page 1.


----------



## TahoeTomahawk

idonaldson said:


> So at the end of the day am I buying a Neo, Mod1, or Viper. If I am starting something all over again - PM me. And yes, I read from page 1.


If you decide on the Viper, I would strongly recommend you converting it to the Belquette Bags. Save yourself some headaches and $$.


----------



## spiderx1

I dont think DTG will let him use bags and maintain his warranty on the viper. But I agree use them if you can.


----------



## TahoeTomahawk

That's true.. probably similar to the Kiosk .. only under warranty if you use their ink, but their ink system does not work so you are SOL!


----------



## Stitch-Up

How many DTG suppliers offer a money back guarantee? I only know of *one* and that's All American with their NeoFlex.

That wasn't the only reason I purchased the NeoFlex system but it was a big incentive and demonstrated the confidence AA has in their product & after sales support.


----------



## JeridHill

John, All American isn't the only company that practices this. If we have a defective product that we can't fix, and the customer wants to return the machine, we do the same, 100%. Thankfully, we haven't had to apply this policy. If someone buys it and decides they don't want it, we have a window of time as well that it can be returned, in this case there would be a restocking fee. Either way, I'm sure AA and Belquette aren't the only ones that offer this.


----------



## FatKat Printz

Stitch-Up said:


> How many DTG suppliers offer a money back guarantee? I only know of *one* and that's All American with their NeoFlex.
> 
> That wasn't the only reason I purchased the NeoFlex system but it was a big incentive and demonstrated the confidence AA has in their product & after sales support.


Even though this is a great incentive to have.. getting your money back for the machine is gonna only cover that cost not gonna cover the cost of wasted ink, time, refunds, shirts, down time, replacement parts that you were told you needed to buy to get up and running.. yes, I can go on. When you start off with the right ink system and printer.. a money back guarantee shouldn't even be a selling point. It should be expected..


----------



## VBGrafx

spiderx1 said:


> I dont think DTG will let him use bags and maintain his warranty on the viper. But I agree use them if you can.


 
I don't know if ya'll are interested in this or not but....
*The Use of Compatible Supplies Cannot Void Your Manufacturer Warranty!*

*MAGNUSON-MOSS Warranty Improvement Act*
United States Code Annotated
Title 15 Commerce and Trade
Chapter 50 Consumer Product Warranties 15 Section 2302
http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/buspubs/warranty.htm
(c) No warrantor of a consumer product may condition his written or implied warranty of such product on the consumer's using, in connection with such product, any article or service (other than article or service provided without charge under the terms of the warranty) which is identified by brand, trade or corporate name; except that the prohibition of this subsection may be waived by the Commission if:

The warrantor satisfies the Commission that the warranted product will function properly only if the article or service so identified is used in connection with the warranted product, and
The Commission finds that such a waiver is in the public interest.


----------



## vinyl signs

TahoeTomahawk said:


> If you decide on the Viper, I would strongly recommend you converting it to the Belquette Bags. Save yourself some headaches and $$.



Has anyone used bagged inks on the Viper? I thought there was a discussion on this and that it hadn't been figured out yet.


----------



## FatKat Printz

VBGrafx said:


> The Use of Compatible Supplies Cannot Void Your Manufacturer


Good to know.. key word "compatible".. argue this with a distributor who doesn't think an Epson OEM part is considered genuine but after market 

sign the warranty and somewhere it states (summarized) 

anything that touches the ink supply must be replaced under the guidance of an approved technician and supplies must be replaced by an approved distributor. 

again start off on the right foot and don't worry about this..


----------



## JeridHill

This is the key:

The warrantor satisfies the Commission that the warranted product will function properly only if the article or service so identified is used in connection with the warranted product.

If I read this right, it basically says that the manufacturer/distributor is the one who says it works or not. If someone else's ink messes up your printer, it wouldn't be hard for a manufacturer/distributor to show it was the 3rd party. Otherwise, anyone can produce ink and not worry if it breaks something. There is no protection for the manufacturer/distributor. This clause, IMO, says they have to prove their product works better with their (inks). The burden is on the manufacturer.

Even so, it won't void the warranty on the machine itself, only the parts that come in contact with the ink. I'm not a lawyer, so take my opinion for what it is, my opinion.


----------



## FatKat Printz

JeridHill said:


> Even so, it won't void the warranty on the machine itself, only the parts that come in contact with the ink. I'm not a lawyer, so take my opinion for what it is, my opinion.


Exactly.. 9 out of 10 times you are changing something that comes into contact with the ink supply..


----------



## VBGrafx

I think I am going to start a new forum because this is off topic, but I have an pages of info on this. Thanks


----------



## DAGuide

Stitch-Up said:


> How many DTG suppliers offer a money back guarantee? I only know of *one* and that's All American with their NeoFlex.


Although this is a good thing to have, it is important to understand also that if the customer gets a lease on the printer... the leasing company will want an early termination penalty. Not that I would expect All American to pay that penalty, this should be known before getting into the lease.

Mark


----------



## VBGrafx

I am liking the NeoFlex more and more. Is there any downside to the NeoFlex machine?


----------



## TahoeTomahawk

VBGrafx said:


> I am liking the NeoFlex more and more. Is there any downside to the NeoFlex machine?


Every machine has pros and cons, but that is specific to your business model.


----------



## Belquette

Its' really unfortunate that a manufacturer cannot state specs on this forum without being deleted.
It's not up to our users to provide detail specs, things I feel are very important.
What would you suggest Rodney?


----------



## VBGrafx

Belquette said:


> Its' really unfortunate that a manufacturer cannot state specs on this forum without being deleted.
> It's not up to our users to provide detail specs, things I feel are very important.
> What would you suggest Rodney?


Feel free to contact me:
Victor P. Bourque, Jr.
VBGrafx


Code:


vic[USER=37245]@VBGrafx[/USER].com

cell# 225-715-3677
Office#225-673-3602


----------



## Rodney

Belquette said:


> Its' really unfortunate that a manufacturer cannot state specs on this forum without being deleted.
> It's not up to our users to provide detail specs, things I feel are very important.
> What would you suggest Rodney?


That's completely untrue, and I'm pretty shocked that you'd even make an accusation like that.

What you were doing by posting promotional videos and making claims about your machine was definitely not just "stating specs"

"Stating specs" would be answering factual questions like other manufacturers and vendors have done here many times. Questions like "what is the print size", "what is the size of the machine".

Making claims like your machine is the fastest, better built, more flexibile, etc is not citing a "spec", it's promoting your machine as better than others that are out there.

If people just want specs, it's very easy for them to access your website or any other manufacuters website where hopefully you have your specs listed along with your other promotional materials. Your website is listed right under every post you make in your signature.

Members can get promotional info and sales pitches from viewing vendors websites directly or by talking to them at tradeshows.

When people come here and ask questions like "Mod 1 vs Neoflex", I don't think they are asking the manufacturers/vendors/distributors to come into the thread and duke it out about how their machine is better than the next guys. They can get that with a simple phone call, email or trade show visit to the vendor. *They are looking for opinions and experiences from actual business owners/users of the machine that don't have a financial interest in giving them straight opinions about how the machines work for them.*

I had hoped that we could handle this privately so the thread wouldn't get further taken off track, but I can assure you that what you're posting isn't just innocent "stating of specs". Otherwise we'd have every vendor here "stating specs" about how their machine is the best.


----------



## allamerican-aeoon

Rodney said:


> That's completely untrue, and I'm pretty shocked that you'd even make an accusation like that..


Best posting in whole thread. thank you


----------



## 102557

After reviewing some of the differences on the mod1 in comparison to machines in the same class its very evident it was designed for big production... most evident non oem epson parts motors/encoders etc.. ie no rotary encoder?

nice work on this machine guys..

I think you need to make an entry level "lower production model" and incorporate more of the epson parts to save cost for the smaller shops in mind... the transfer crowd business etc.. not everyone is running non stop....

best wishes.....


----------



## TahoeTomahawk

german13 said:


> After reviewing some of the differences on the mod1 in comparison to machines in the same class its very evident it was designed for big production


I agree.. when we were comparing printers to upgrade, we noticed that about the MOD right away. There were several printers out there that had the platen attached to the bed or difficult to remove from the bed. From our experience, using multiple platens is always better regardless of how fast the printer is because you can have multiple people loading / unloading.

Also the maintenance was far easier than the other machines. No covers to unscrew, no yoga positions needed to get at the capping station and wiper blade ..
here is some pictures I posted about the difference in maintenance between our machines (old Kiosk and new MOD1)
http://www.t-shirtforums.com/direct-garment-dtg-inkjet-printing/t78753-2.html#post705501


----------



## JeridHill

german13 said:


> After reviewing some of the differences on the mod1 in comparison to machines in the same class its very evident it was designed for big production... most evident non oem epson parts motors/encoders etc.. ie no rotary encoder?
> 
> nice work on this machine guys..
> 
> I think you need to make an entry level "lower production model" and incorporate more of the epson parts to save cost for the smaller shops in mind... the transfer crowd business etc.. not everyone is running non stop....
> 
> best wishes.....


The Module series was supposed to be the lower production model. But after the continuation of the build, Belquette simply didn't want to put out a product that wasn't top of the line. In the end, swapping out parts with higher grade and even custom made parts, means less problems for the end user.


----------



## 102557

JeridHill said:


> The Module series was supposed to be the lower production model. But after the continuation of the build, Belquette simply didn't want to put out a product that wasn't top of the line. In the end, swapping out parts with higher grade and even custom made parts, means less problems for the end user.


very interesting printer no doubt...and worth the cost for what it is...

I still firmly believe as fact that a simple built machine is needed in this market.. If its based simply on the epson design itself with a qauility transport.."no extra electronics" it will work just as well as the epson printer does itself in stock form, which is pretty darn well by all accounts thats why we use them?

I complety understand the concept behind the mod.. but there is a market here that no ones tapped, that i personally think would benefit the dtg market by doing so.. a guy off the street cant do this.."with great success". however and existing dtg company could very easily. its going to take there existing knowledge and a well engineered design... and marketed for what it is!!!

A simple google search will show this is what the people want.. go to youtube look at how many people have tried to do this, these are all sales for the dtg manufacturer.. make it a throwaway printer that can be easily replaced with a new on a proprietary base.. maybe leave the fancy electronics to a ink delivery system were only your product works..ie they have to buy ink from you..

Im sure this will happen ..then ill say i told you so but a big player has to do this to be an instant success.. heck we could go on and on about what this would do for the dtg market.. my background is in fabrication/design and i have seen this over and over.. "taking an overcomplicated system simplifying it and the cost" ... theres a place and a market for the desktops that are converted to perform like the pro units "like the mod", but i think all of you guys are missing a huge market by not having an entry level machine for the smaller shops and wallets.. whom would glady just replace the head unit at the end of its life for new based on a cheaper format...

I know im ranting here but people could add production very easily aswell as they grow ..they only print so fast and you will eventually need to add another machine as you grow, and i think they would rather do this then adding monsterous other brand machines/and there cost.. someone should privately test this as a prototype with an existing customer.. I know im dead on with this theory I really believe it would bring dtg to the forefront along with all its benefits in consumables etc...

look at the chances people take on these junk printers that are foreign built with no rip etc. also the older moldel ebay buys that are already used up!!! they dump tons o money in these things looking for a cheaper alternative.. you folks can have all this business with a new format printer and simple design.. just need to open your .. a majority of folks are just looking for a good print end result for less investment not all are mass production shops looking for the ferrari of printers, they just want the kia that will get them there.. once there established then they can look at the high end units you have to offer.. i still say they will buy the cheaper units

I know these guys have the capability to build a manual or even powered quaility transport to match the existing functions of the printer, If a guy with average mechanical skills can do it at home so can the manufacturers with superior quaility and success and all there years of knowledge.. Its not rocket science we are talking about here "building a simple unit" Im not saying this = success for the end user but lets them get in the game.. you can give some people the golden key and a million dollar expense fund and they still dont make it..but it gives them a good shot at it..

I hope to one day see this happen


----------



## spiderx1

Back to warranty issues. That law went to court on people putting power chips in diesel pickups and the mfg voiding the warranty. Starts with an F. The mfg lost the battle.


----------



## 102557

spiderx1 said:


> Back to warranty issues. That law went to court on people putting power chips in diesel pickups and the mfg voiding the warranty. Starts with an F. The mfg lost the battle.


 
Hmmm Whaaat T #@$%? I love ya randy, but i dont know what the you just said!!! I know you have been flying alot lately-->you sniffing jet fuel again


----------



## DAGuide

Randy,

I believe most of the courts have said the manufacturer cannot automatically void the warranty. However, the manufacturer would not be responsible for any damage that resulted due to the use of the non-OEM part. It is also debatable whether the manufacturer has to provide support on the product now that the non-OEM product has been introduced. The real problem is how to determine whether the non-OEM part caused the damaged. This can become a he-said, she-said argument.

Just my understanding of the different cases.

Mark


----------



## VBGrafx

spiderx1 said:


> Back to warranty issues. That law went to court on people putting power chips in diesel pickups and the mfg voiding the warranty. Starts with an F. The mfg lost the battle.


I think this may help...? or confuse..?

The use of other printer cartridges does not void your printer warranty. The manufacturer of the printer you are using cannot void the warranty on your printer because you use a cartridge or refill kit manufactured by someone other than the printer manufacturer. This prohibition includes the use of compatible cartridges and remanufactured cartridges.
U.S. law also prohibits the manufacturers of your equipment from requiring the use of OEM ink or toner or charging extra fees if you use products other than OEM products with their equipment. Those requirements and/or fees are in violation of existing anti-trust acts:
The Sherman and Clayton Antitrust Acts
(see also: Supreme Court decision: IBM vs. The United States 1936)
http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/public/div_stats/1638.htm
http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/buspubs/warranty.htm
IBM vs. The United States
(The Sherman and Clayton Antitrust Law)
The Supreme Court (IBM vs. The United States) held that IBM could not threaten customers with termination of their data processing equipment leases just because they did not use supplies manufactured by IBM. Such practice constituted a tying agreement and was found to be in violation of the Sherman and Clayton Antitrust Law.


----------



## allamerican-aeoon

DAGuide said:


> Randy,
> 
> I believe most of the courts have said the manufacturer cannot automatically void the warranty. However, the manufacturer would not be responsible for any damage that resulted due to the use of the non-OEM part. It is also debatable whether the manufacturer has to provide support on the product now that the non-OEM product has been introduced. The real problem is how to determine whether the non-OEM part caused the damaged. This can become a he-said, she-said argument.
> 
> Just my understanding of the different cases.
> 
> Mark


Good point.
when we go to court. Lawyers will find so many way to get away = Best Lawyer (haha). Defense is easier than Offense. Because one little flaw name spelling, date --- bs's. Lawyers starting to hang on BS's. Drag, darg.
Simpson is good example.

Before the law. common sense should decide it.
Warrantee should NOT void because final user use other companies consumable products.

Mark, I am not talking about you.
"I HATE LAWYERS!!! TOO MANY!!! Ambulance chasers, I sue for you AD, I told my lawyer same. Often, Most rip-offs worse than criminals, worse thing is they all rich with our money. If you hate them too just “thanks” me. So we all know who hates lawyers.


----------



## DAGuide

allamerican said:


> Mark, I am not talking about you.
> "I HATE LAWYERS!!! TOO MANY!!! Ambulance chasers, I sue for you AD, I told my lawyer same. Often, Most rip-offs worse than criminals, worse thing is they all rich with our money. If you hate them too just “thanks” me. So we all know who hates lawyers.


Funny thing being a lawyer that is lucky enough to pick his own clients for the past 9 years (as I have other businesses that provide for me), I find the people that say this are the ones that have typically have done something wrong in the past and needed legal assistance or are someone that I don't want to work for no matter how much money they are willing to pay me. Sure there are attorneys that will take work for one reason or another that I would not, but there are also sales reps / manufacturers that sell products that I would not as well. Different strokes for different folks. Choose the people you do business with wisely. But those are topics of another thread. Also, just talking in general of course.

Mark


----------



## spiderx1

DAGuide said:


> Randy,
> 
> I believe most of the courts have said the manufacturer cannot automatically void the warranty. However, the manufacturer would not be responsible for any damage that resulted due to the use of the non-OEM part. It is also debatable whether the manufacturer has to provide support on the product now that the non-OEM product has been introduced. The real problem is how to determine whether the non-OEM part caused the damaged. This can become a he-said, she-said argument.
> 
> Just my understanding of the different cases.
> 
> Mark


You should know much better than I. 
Thanks Mark.


----------



## Stitch-Up

Sun Turtle said:


> We are going to ISS Orlando in a few weeks and will be purchasing either the Mod 1 or NeoFlex. Your opinions are greatly appreciated! We've seen the Mod 1 in action and were headed in that direction until we discovered the NeoFlex with it's larger print area and solvent and textile ink change ability. Now we're not sure if the Mod 1 has enough flexibility. Can anyone that uses either comment on the following?
> 1 Versatility
> 
> 2 Ease of Maintenance
> 
> 3 Reliability/Problems
> 
> 4 Technical Support
> 
> 5 Ease of Use and learning curve needed
> 
> 6 Software


Morning from a grey & wet UK Tammy.

I know you've made your choice but I'm interested to know why you chose the NeoFlex? Perhaps you liked the idea of being a member of the NeoFamily  Whilst I can see that attraction, I'm sure there were other reasons?

I believe you purchased before the results of the DTG BATTLE ROYALE were announced which was won by NeoBrother Justin Walker & his NeoFlex - NoeBrother makes you sound like a Saint Justin. I know Chinese999 will agree to that 

Anyway, would love to hear from you Tammy and what were the factors you considered when deciding where to spend your money?

It was a no brainer for me. After months of research I knew I wanted a closed circuit ink delivery system, at the time only 2 brands offered that - NoeFlex & MOD1 - the MOD1 wasn't available in the UK so I too, am a NeoBrother  but less Saintly than Justin Walker.


----------



## Justin Walker

Stitch-Up said:


> I believe you purchased before the results of the DTG BATTLE ROYALE were announced which was won by NeoBrother Justin Walker & his NeoFlex - NoeBrother makes you sound like a Saint Justin. I know Chinese999 will agree to that


Haha I don't think the winner has been officially announced yet..... I'm not gonna believe it till the belt is around my waist! . There is still time for a surprising, last-minute upset! I'm guessing Rodney is doing continuing wash tests.


----------



## Stitch-Up

Justin Walker said:


> Haha I don't think the winner has been officially announced yet..... I'm not gonna believe it till the belt is around my waist! . There is still time for a surprising, last-minute upset! I'm guessing Rodney is doing continuing wash tests.


Ooops, maybe I was a bit hasty!



Justin Walker said:


> I'm not gonna believe it till the belt is around my waist!


Don't you mean halo around your head? 

What the heck you doing up at this time?


----------



## JeridHill

I'm not going to defend one machine over another, but the DTG BATTLE ROYALE isn't just about the machine, it's also about the operator. Yes, Justin most likely will take the belt, but in fairness, Justin has been doing dtg most likely longer than anyone who entered. So if he didn't place in the top 3, I would have been highly surprised. Yes, the machine deserves some of the praise, but if I was new to the market and tried to print something even with the best machine, if I wasn't fully versed, it would have most likely not taken a top ranking. So props definitely go out to Justin, but at the same time, I wouldn't say this should be a deciding factor for a machine purchase.

If I would have entered, I am certain I could have been ranked up there as well. If I had won, I can guarantee you, I wouldn't be pointing people to the DTG BATTLE ROYALE thread to sell machines. Believe what you will and I know it's hard to believe, but that is simply the truth.


----------



## allamerican-aeoon

JeridHill said:


> Justin has been doing dtg most likely longer than anyone who entered. I wouldn't say this should be a deciding factor for a machine purchase.


I agree with your point but I have one question to make.
How about Mandy who has been NeoFamily for couple months. She is #2. If Justin W's shirts wash-out she will win with 2 points behind Justin Walker. Only 2 applied from NeoFamily and they are #1 #2 so far before the wash. It has to tell to all something. Isn't it?
You are right on 
Print = Machine + operator
Wash = operator + ink
Am I wrong again?
But It will come again next year (according to Rodney)
Good luck to you next year.


----------



## JeridHill

Here is the criteria:

1. First Impressions - is the print "display ready" without pretreat stains and heat press squares

So pretreat stains or press squares, this has more to do with technique in pretreating than machine printing.

2. Sharpness of Detail in the print

This one is machine related

3. Softness of Hand on the print

This is ink related, not machine

4. Print accuracy - (registration, trapping, no banding, even ink distribution)

Machine and software related

5. Washability - how does the print hold up after the initial wash?

Ink Related as well as proper curing

So 20 out of the 50 has to do with the machine, the other has to do with proper pretreating and curing.


----------



## stix

Repeated success is not an accident or luck.


----------



## brice

How many Mods entered? I haven't looked through every page of the thread to discern which entry is which printer and operator.


----------



## Rodney

Stitch-Up said:


> Morning from a grey & wet UK Tammy.
> 
> I know you've made your choice but I'm interested to know why you chose the NeoFlex? Perhaps you liked the idea of being a member of the NeoFamily  Whilst I can see that attraction, I'm sure there were other reasons?
> 
> I believe you purchased before the results of the DTG BATTLE ROYALE were announced which was won by NeoBrother Justin Walker & his NeoFlex - NoeBrother makes you sound like a Saint Justin. I know Chinese999 will agree to that
> 
> Anyway, would love to hear from you Tammy and what were the factors you considered when deciding where to spend your money?
> 
> It was a no brainer for me. After months of research I knew I wanted a closed circuit ink delivery system, at the time only 2 brands offered that - NoeFlex & MOD1 - the MOD1 wasn't available in the UK so I too, am a NeoBrother  but less Saintly than Justin Walker.


Since you're a NeoFlex distributor, it's probably not fair to push users to post positive answers about why they chose a machine that you sell 



> I believe you purchased before the results of the DTG BATTLE ROYALE were announced which was won by NeoBrother Justin Walker & his NeoFlex - NoeBrother makes you sound like a Saint Justin. I know Chinese999 will agree to that


Easy there...the winner has not been announced yet


----------



## TahoeTomahawk

Thank you Rondey for putting together the DTG Shootout


----------



## JohnL

Thank you Rodney for taking the time to take the great pictures. Although the entries were small in number, the amount of entries multiplied by the number of pictures is actually a lot of work. Pre-wash and after wash pictures that comes out to about 200ish pictures.

I know you definitely want more applicants next year but there has to be something in the back of your mind that is hoping for not an excess amount.

Kudos to all that entered and congratulations to the winners!


----------



## brice

Was there ever a line by line summary of provide each entry and the machine they used?


----------



## allamerican-aeoon

brice said:


> Was there ever a line by line summary of provide each entry and the machine they used?


It is not like a Golf tournament score board.
Country, Name, Score, --.
Some who did not win maybe do not want to be posted their name and machines they used. It comes from respect of privacy. I think Rodney did fair thing.
All we will know is who want to be proud of this result. B, you are one of picky person who I love to deal with. Have great long weekend. I am out for chase birdies, pars even though I am suffering with jetlag. 
Cheers, beers are on me. Always


----------



## stevegamble

VBGrafx said:


> I am liking the NeoFlex more and more. Is there any downside to the NeoFlex machine?


Reading all the threads/posts.. did this one get answered?
Maintenance perhaps?
removing shields, unscrewing printhead to flush a line?
Not sure if this is considered a PITA as nobody comments on it, and users aren't complaining that I can find?
But.. anyone else comment ?


----------



## Stitch-Up

People who buy DTG printers are aware of the maintenance requirements - or they certainly should be.

When you get into a routine and become confident the maintenance is no problem at all - 10 minutes a day and maybe a bit longer when you give it a good clean.

I've had my NeoFlex nearly 3 years and it's as good as new.


----------



## stevegamble

Stitch-Up said:


> People who buy DTG printers are aware of the maintenance requirements - or they certainly should be.
> 
> When you get into a routine and become confident the maintenance is no problem at all - 10 minutes a day and maybe a bit longer when you give it a good clean.
> 
> I've had my NeoFlex nearly 3 years and it's as good as new.


 
Thanks.
Yes, we are aware I am sure.
But some Daily Clean ups.. are simpler and cheaper than others.
Neoflex, Mod 1, Mpower, GT381, ahh the choices..
All come at a price.. print quality, speed, purchse price, ink cost, etc..

for the Neoflex though..
Do you print daily or.
Have you had down times of 3-4-5 days?
Did you or Do you do a flush of the lines.. remove print head etc..

I was comparing printers maintenance and the Neoflex does look to be the most work, get the screwdriver out etc.. remove bands, reach behind with one hand, push this gear, etc.. quite daunting for somone new to see.
routine for a seasoned veteran.

Being new and having anticipated Non Print days or maybe a week here or their as we have -40F winters and tee shirt sales get slow. Hoodies then though

Is One big concern.


----------



## mike gammons

This is how I made my choice. Looked at the forum post of each Manufacture, looked at the machine and gave them a file to print. Talked to the owner of each Machine (off The Forum) My choice was Made. Neoflex 

Mike


----------



## stevegamble

mike gammons said:


> This is how I made my choice. Looked at the forum post of each Manufacture, looked at the machine and gave them a file to print. Talked to the owner of each Machine (off The Forum) My choice was Made. Neoflex
> 
> Mike


 
Very straight forward approach.
Sounds like you were looking for print quality, sending a file out..
I use Youtube to view the daily/weekly/ maintenance of each.
Then read the threads..

I can not find posts from those who may print less frequent and discuss how they deal with that.
Or..
If some machines are better than others for infrequent use.
the every other day or every 3'rd or 4'th day..

Thread title is Mod 1 vs Neoflex , 
So I ask are their both users out here who can comment on this type of infrequent use for each of the 2 machines.
Are they very similar in maintenance or problems for infrequent use.
?


----------



## mike gammons

Steve,
I print a shirt Most every day, I have posted on our face book page that I will print a shirt for someone's birthday for $5. So I use this to keep my machine tuned up and I don't waste the ink . 
Mike


----------



## stevegamble

Mod 1 Bagged ink system, VS Neoflex Cartridges ?
Are the Bagged ink (degassed, micro filtered) different ?
Does it solve any issues ?

Is this something any Neoflex users have looked into ??


----------



## JeridHill

stevegamble said:


> Mod 1 Bagged ink system, VS Neoflex Cartridges ?
> Are the Bagged ink (degassed, micro filtered) different ?
> Does it solve any issues ?
> 
> Is this something any Neoflex users have looked into ??


I'm not sure about the NeoFlex cartridges, but for us, the inks are degassed, micro-filtered and bagged.

A sealed cartridge, whether degassed or not, will perform better than an open cartridge. Some people may not have an issue with open cartridges, but it's about controlling your environment. Because one person doesn't have problems with open cartridges doesn't mean someone else in another location wouldn't. When you control the environment, in this case, bagged and sealed cartridges, you are opening up control for many more locations. From our experience, adding degassed ink takes it a step further. It's a long process and if we didn't believe it was effective, we wouldn't go through the additional expense in filters, time and electricity....


----------



## Stitch-Up

Do remember, 'sealed cartridges' contain a bag


----------



## JeridHill

Stitch-Up said:


> Do remember, 'sealed cartridges' contain a bag


John, I'm aware of this, that's why I talked about the sealed cartridges. As a matter of fact, I even said bagged and sealed cartridges in my response.


----------



## JeridHill

Stitch-Up said:


> Do remember, 'sealed cartridges' contain a bag


I wanted to add to this for a little clarification on the difference between a cartridge and a bag. The cartridges stand tall and the level changes with use. This can effect the print, there may be a time of great printing, then all of a sudden not so great. It's because the level of ink in the cartridge changed. On the bagged ink outside of a cartridge, you can lay it flat, so when the ink is being used, it doesn't change heights.

The sealed cartridges do help this scenario a little better because you have a more controlled internal environment. You may see problems on larger images that have a lot of ink colors and the head is trying to fire all the ink and gravity is pushing (or pulling) too hard on the ink. But for the most part, the act of bagging the ink in the cartridge adds to benefiting the final result.


----------



## Justin Walker

JeridHill said:


> The cartridges stand tall and the level changes with use. This can effect the print, there may be a time of great printing, then all of a sudden not so great. It's because the level of ink in the cartridge changed. On the bagged ink outside of a cartridge, you can lay it flat, so when the ink is being used, it doesn't change.


This is absolutely not a problem on the larger format Epsons - I don't know if it is more of an issue for the smaller format machines, but everyone has seen images of the HUGE prints that we do on our Neoflex printers (coincidently with vertical carts), and we have never seen discrepancies in the prints. I know the carts are slightly larger than what Epson provides with the system (hence there MAY be slightly more downforce, but it doesn't seem to matter in such small margins), but if there was a problem with vertical carts then I don't think Epson would utilize them for high-end printing systems.


----------



## JeridHill

The 48xx based systems handle the inks much better than a smaller format printer, but I have customers that will say otherwise. It may not be a problem for a majority, but it still can be a problem. This is why a sealed bag in the cartridge helps vs open cartridges. We have customers that for the FlexiJet that switched to the degassed, sealed cartridges and they've noticed a difference than an open cartridge. Introducing a bulk ink system with heavier inks does effect the printer. There is a sweet spot of printing where everything is great, but then it can change, but again the sealed cartridges reduces this issue quite a bit.

And like I mentioned, just because one person is not having the problem doesn't mean someone else isn't.


----------



## Stitch-Up

In 3 years, I've not once experienced the problem you describe Jerid and to be honest, I've not read a thread suggesting they have the problem you associate with 'tall' carts. I don't stray much into the other brand of printers so maybe I'm missing something.

I guess us NeoFlex owners are just made the best choice.


----------



## JeridHill

Stitch-Up said:


> In 3 years, I've not once experienced the problem you describe Jerid and to be honest, I've not read a thread suggesting they have the problem you associate with 'tall' carts. I don't stray much into the other brand of printers so maybe I'm missing something.
> 
> I guess us NeoFlex owners are just made the best choice.


We have a large customer base and FlexiJet owners are all over the world. We see more related to any kind of issues like this because of all the people we deal with directly. On the 48xx based systems it does show up, but not as much as the smaller format, especially with an open bulk cartridge. It's irrelevant to what printer it is, if it's 48xx based, it will perform the same because the base printer is pretty much left in tact.

Besides all of this, I'm not cutting on any machine. We were the first to create a 48xx based system, so we do know it a little more than others may think.


----------



## stevegamble

Stitch-Up said:


> Do remember, 'sealed cartridges' contain a bag


 
Lot's of passion on here..
ok so..
All the research I have been doing and I did not know that.. so Thank you.

I also understand the very small advantage that a flat bags "may" offer depending on location altitude etc.. (opinions pending)..sort of a fine tuning of of the position of the ink bag.
Then withing less than a inch "remain the same"

I have read on TSF, that some people take the cartridge out as it gets low ? and use it for after hours auto cleans.
But pop in a new fuller cartridge for quality printing.

Maybe this is related, maybe not..


----------



## OSSKOBRET

can you bag a neoflex ?


----------



## JeridHill

OSSKOBRET said:


> can you bag a neoflex ?


(Outside of the sealed ink cartridges), you could, but it's not pretty.... Ink lines everywhere, we've done it on the FlexiJet, but it's not aesthetically pleasing.


----------



## stevegamble

Does anyone think these printers are asthetically pretty??
It is a Tool, a piece of Equipment if you will.

I think The shirts are Pretty !
mybe the revenue's too. 

I just want performance.


----------



## JeridHill

True, but you also have to contend with the moving printer and bags hanging off the side of the platform. It's not really practical.


----------



## Stitch-Up

OSSKOBRET said:


> can you bag a neoflex ?


Why would you want to do this? The cartridge already contains a bag.

Have you found any NeoFlex user experiencing problems using cartridges?

I've probably read nearly every post in the NeoFlex section for the last 3 years and not once have I read anything that suggests there's a problem caused by using cartridges.

Competitors like to introduce scare theories that simply are unfounded with respect to the NeoFlex. It just doesn't happen.

'Don't fix whats not broke'


----------



## JeridHill

Stitch-Up said:


> Why would you want to do this? The cartridge already contains a bag.
> 
> Have you found any NeoFlex user experiencing problems using cartridges?
> 
> I've probably read nearly every post in the NeoFlex section for the last 3 years and not once have I read anything that suggests there's a problem caused by using cartridges.
> 
> Competitors like to introduce scare theories that simply are unfounded with respect to the NeoFlex. It just doesn't happen.
> 
> 'Don't fix whats not broke'


John,

I'm not sure what replies you are reading, but in your mind it's everyone versus the NeoFlex. This is simply not the case. If you look at my responses, I never said a cartridge was bad on the 48xx, I said the sealed cartridges perform better than the open cartridges. I then explained what happens when the ink is being used in the cartridge and how it can effect the overall print and yes, once again, how a sealed cartridge helps this situation.

I also did not suggest "bagging" the NeoFlex, someone else suggested it. If you read my response, I did not encourage it. In another thread, a NeoFlex user placed foam pads in his cartridges to try to get all the ink out of it. One of our employees said you shouldn't have to do that with a sealed cartridge and you went on to say how the competitors are trying to throw a wrench in the works, when in fact it was the user who came up with the concept with no influence from "competitors".

Let's try to be civil and simply help each other regardless of machine instead of pointing blame. These forums are not the only users in the world. I'm sure there are many NeoFlex users just as there are FlexiJet users that have never read a thread on this site. I can tell you in all honesty, I have talked to NeoFlex users (as well as FlexiJet users) that have experienced this problem. Go back and read my posts, you will not find me trying to do anything other than help no matter where I'm posting. I don't try to introduce scare theories, nor does it happen as often as you or others might think. In the end, I'm simply explaining how an inkjet system works.


----------



## TahoeTomahawk

Stitch-Up said:


> Why would you want to do this? The cartridge already contains a bag.


Because Ink settles and you can shake the bags to agitate the ink without removing them.

I suppose if you are strong enough you can pick up the entire NeoFlex and shake it.. that should work too.


----------



## Stitch-Up

What's wrong with removing the carts and giving them a shake? Never had a problem myself and I don't read that anyone else has either.


----------



## stevegamble

yea, couldn't you just pull out the cartridge and shake it ??


----------



## Justin Walker

TahoeTomahawk said:


> Because Ink settles and you can shake the bags to agitate the ink without removing them.
> 
> I suppose if you are strong enough you can pick up the entire NeoFlex and shake it.. that should work too.


I can't really see a single argument for why I would not want to pull out the cartridges and shake them; it literally takes a minute and a half, and when I am not shaking them they are safely locked into the machine (out of harm's way for when someone accidentally bumps into them). We don't have any muss-and-fuss over the height of the cartridges, since they sit at exactly the prescribed height as determined by Epson - we don't have any trouble shaking the ink once per day, and we don't seem to have any trouble with the varying ink volume affecting our prints.....


----------



## OSSKOBRET

Stitch-Up said:


> Why would you want to do this? The cartridge already contains a bag.
> 
> Have you found any NeoFlex user experiencing problems using cartridges?
> 
> I've probably read nearly every post in the NeoFlex section for the last 3 years and not once have I read anything that suggests there's a problem caused by using cartridges.
> 
> Competitors like to introduce scare theories that simply are unfounded with respect to the NeoFlex. It just doesn't happen.
> 
> 'Don't fix whats not broke'


 well im not a competiter 
i am a future neo owner as soon as my wallet permits , currently i have a dtg kiosk 2 that has been upgraded to all the new hardware , and so far i am happy .
as for bagging the neo i was asking for the simple fact you can keep a eye on the inks and order ahead of time without having extra cartriges in storage as i am a very small shop and do not have the luxury yet of buying excess supplies , so it was a simple question that i was asking so dont get your chonies all bunched up.


----------



## Stitch-Up

Hi Bret

I believe the cartridges from AA are now clear plastic so you can do just as you suggest - keep an eye on the ink levels. Perhaps someone can confirm this?

Welcome to the Neo forums, it's a great place to learn all you need to know about the NeoFlex.

BTW, I've never seen the word chonies before  Is it something you could explain in open forum 

Cheers

John
PS Hope your saving goes well.


----------



## OSSKOBRET

Stitch-Up said:


> Hi Bret
> 
> I believe the cartridges from AA are now clear plastic so you can do just as you suggest - keep an eye on the ink levels. Perhaps someone can confirm this?
> 
> Welcome to the Neo forums, it's a great place to learn all you need to know about the NeoFlex.
> 
> BTW, I've never seen the word chonies before  Is it something you could explain in open forum
> 
> Cheers
> 
> John
> PS Hope your saving goes well.


 yes i will explain and yes i was being sarcastic and probly spelled it wrong but it is a term for underware
ha ha


----------



## Stitch-Up

Hahahaha, we say, 'don't get your knickers in a twist'.


----------



## FatKat Printz

Here is something that is really overlooked between the two machines. Yes you can absolutely pull the carts and shake them to agitate the ink. But what about the 100ml+ of ink that settled in the lines? With a bagged machine you can perform a head clean and raise the bag to shake it. This agitates all the ink from the bag to nozzle plate more than enough to get a bright white print after a weekend of no printing. 48xx machine not printing white ink everyday cost some ink to get your white to bounce back to bright white. Even printing lights daily doesn't move the white enough to keep it agitated. Even though the machine spits a little before every print it isn't enough. This has nothing to do with carts or bags it's the nature of the white ink to separate and not being able to agitate it in the lines is something to consider when thinking about buying any machine. Think about taking a long weekend and all the ink settling in the lines. That's what Adam was referring to about shaking the whole printer.


----------



## OSSKOBRET

thats my concern with cartriges 
right now my dtg is on bottle and all i have to do is pull ink thru and shoot it back into bottles and i have not lost any product , but again my machine is old and not as advanced as a neo . but for now it does its job


----------



## FatKat Printz

You'd be better off just priming the white dampers and wasting the ink instead of pushing more air into the system. If you can't afford to waste 6cc of ink total between the three whites, sell it.


----------



## VTG

Stitch-Up said:


> Hi Bret
> 
> I believe the cartridges from AA are now clear plastic so you can do just as you suggest - keep an eye on the ink levels. Perhaps someone can confirm this?


Yep, they are clear plastic cartridges. The ink levels are in plain view at all times. Easy to see how much ink is left in each cartridges without having to touch them or remove them. To be clear, I'm not saying that you can tell exactly how many ml's are left in the ink bags, but it's plain to see if your bags (in the clear cartridges) are 3/4 full, 1/2 full, 1/4 full, etc.

In fact, it seems like it would be easier to determine the approximate level of ink, inside a bag, inside a clear cartridge, inserted horizontally into the printer, than it would compared to a bag that is laying flat. But I could be wrong (about the ease of determining your ink level in a bag laying flat) and I'm sure someone will set me straight.


----------



## kevrokr

VTG said:


> Yep, they are clear plastic cartridges. The ink levels are in plain view at all times. Easy to see how much ink is left in each cartridges without having to touch them or remove them. To be clear, I'm not saying that you can tell exactly how many ml's are left in the ink bags, but it's plain to see if your bags (in the clear cartridges) are 3/4 full, 1/2 full, 1/4 full, etc.
> 
> In fact, it seems like it would be easier to determine the approximate level of ink, inside a bag, inside a clear cartridge, inserted horizontally into the printer, than it would compared to a bag that is laying flat. But I could be wrong (about the ease of determining your ink level in a bag laying flat) and I'm sure someone will set me straight.


Why can't you just look at the Ink Level Indicator on the Epson Display Panel on the 4800?

To see the ink in the PrintsRite Bags, you simply look at it. The Bags are window clear.


----------



## VTG

kevrokr said:


> Why can't you just look at the Ink Level Indicator on the Epson Display Panel on the 4800?


You can, but the first thing that most people _probably _do is to look at the ink cartridge or bag. I'm mean it's right there in front of you, all day long, so I'd venture to say people probably _look_ at the bags more often then they look at the Ink Level Indicator. Right?



kevrokr said:


> To see the ink in the PrintsRite Bags, you simply look at it. The Bags are window clear.


Sure, the bags are clear, but is it easy to estimate how much ink is in the bag when it's laying down? Or do you have to pick it up to get a better idea? Just asking.

-----

My point was simply that is _seems_ like it would be easier to glance at a bag inside a clear cartridge, inserted horizontally in the printer, and be able to estimate how much ink is left by looking at the level of ink in the bag ... than it would be to do the same by glancing at a clear bag that is laying flat. It just seems like it would be more difficult to estimate the ink level if the bag is laying flat, which means you either pick it up to look at it, or check the Ink Level Indicator.

It's really not that important, it was just an observation ... and an answer to John's question about whether or not the cartridges are clear ... which they are.


----------



## Stitch-Up

FatKat Printz said:


> Here is something that is really overlooked between the two machines. Yes you can absolutely pull the carts and shake them to agitate the ink. But what about the 100ml+ of ink that settled in the lines? With a bagged machine you can perform a head clean and raise the bag to shake it. This agitates all the ink from the bag to nozzle plate more than enough to get a bright white print after a weekend of no printing. 48xx machine not printing white ink everyday cost some ink to get your white to bounce back to bright white. Even printing lights daily doesn't move the white enough to keep it agitated. Even though the machine spits a little before every print it isn't enough. This has nothing to do with carts or bags it's the nature of the white ink to separate and not being able to agitate it in the lines is something to consider when thinking about buying any machine. Think about taking a long weekend and all the ink settling in the lines. That's what Adam was referring to about shaking the whole printer.


That's why I removed the front panel on my Neo so i can give the lines a few flicks with my finger - job done.

I don't know the Mod1, I've never seen one. It was on my shortlist but quickly removed as they didn't supply to the UK at that time.

I'm guessing that shaking the bags doesn't shake the inks in the dampers? Does it shake the lines all the way to the dampers?


----------



## FatKat Printz

Yes it does. It does on any bagged printer beyond just the Mod1. I explained that in my post. You have the ability of raising the bag above the head forcing the ink to surge the lines. That's what gets it in separated. Flicking the lines isn't nearly as effective as forcing ink through this way.

Swyped via Tapatalk 2


----------



## 23spiderman

the bagged system, i'm sure, works just fine. but so does the cartridge system. i've never needed to roll my inks, nor shake my cmyk inks...ever. just put the cart in and print. on the AnaJet and now on the NeoFlex, using the carts is about as easy as it gets with no modifications. while degassing may be important at the distributor level, i have never seen an issue with pulling carts out to refill, bleeding as much air back out as i can, and printing away. this entire discussion of bagged vs. carts; degassed bags vs. degassed carts that, over time become gassed (?) is over blown...in my opinion. again, i haven't experience any problems with just using the carts as is. 

i've been experimenting with the bulk carts (cmyk only) recently and have had ZERO problems. perfect nozzle checks (auto clean every 12 hours), perfect prints. white ink is another beast all together and will remain in the sealed carts. just my experience in my environment.


----------



## allamerican-aeoon

23spiderman said:


> the bagged system, i'm sure, works just fine. but so does the cartridge system. i've never needed to roll my inks, nor shake my cmyk inks...ever. just put the cart in and print. on the AnaJet and now on the NeoFlex, using the carts is about as easy as it gets with no modifications. while degassing may be important at the distributor level, i have never seen an issue with pulling carts out to refill, bleeding as much air back out as i can, and printing away. this entire discussion of bagged vs. carts; degassed bags vs. degassed carts that, over time become gassed (?) is over blown...in my opinion. again, i haven't experience any problems with just using the carts as is.
> 
> i've been experimenting with the bulk carts (cmyk only) recently and have had ZERO problems. perfect nozzle checks (auto clean every 12 hours), perfect prints. white ink is another beast all together and will remain in the sealed carts. just my experience in my environment.


Thank you for you address your experience NeoWeb. I said degassing is totally scare tatic to end users from day one. Some company uses this tatic as sales pitch and sell ink at higher price. If my refill machine does not have degas system attached I will never do degas. 
Also refill yourself bag was recommended by me from day one too by use syringe to save money and shipping cost. If AA is money oriented sucker I will never post these fact here. NeoFamily you can follow Sean's foot step all day long except CYMK bulk and not shaking. At least couple times a week on CYMK but white almost everyday please. Bulk is no no unless you print lots of shirts everyday, still I do not like it.
Cheers! Beers are on me always.


----------



## JeridHill

23spiderman said:


> the bagged system, i'm sure, works just fine. but so does the cartridge system. i've never needed to roll my inks, nor shake my cmyk inks...ever. just put the cart in and print. on the AnaJet and now on the NeoFlex, using the carts is about as easy as it gets with no modifications. while degassing may be important at the distributor level, i have never seen an issue with pulling carts out to refill, bleeding as much air back out as i can, and printing away. this entire discussion of bagged vs. carts; degassed bags vs. degassed carts that, over time become gassed (?) is over blown...in my opinion. again, i haven't experience any problems with just using the carts as is.
> 
> i've been experimenting with the bulk carts (cmyk only) recently and have had ZERO problems. perfect nozzle checks (auto clean every 12 hours), perfect prints. white ink is another beast all together and will remain in the sealed carts. just my experience in my environment.


Sean, it's great you don't have problems with your systems. It is my understanding that Anajet does have their inks degassed, so I'm not so sure that is a relevant argument regarding the Anajet side. You can ask the many people we have who have converted their systems over (including a good handful of Anajet customers) their opinions. We don't do scare tactics. For what we sell our inks for and the cost associated with degassing our inks, if we didn't degas and sell our inks for less, we would make more money than we do now. It has nothing to do with scaring people into "buying" into the belief of degassed ink. It's been proven time and time again for the four years we've been doing it. We deal with people all over the world where one system performs perfectly, they move or sell their machine and it performs different. So to you it may be "overblown" because it may not be necessary, but to others who have seen the difference, they aren't looking at it this way.

In the end, you have to do what works for you. I've talked to people who haven't had problems with their inks and I never try to talk them into anything different. We never even intended on going down this path with conversions, but we have so many consistent enquiries into it and once they convert over, they let us know how different it's become for them. So we continue on....


----------



## allamerican-aeoon

When some company come up with degas sensation I called DuPont right away to ask their opinion. Grant, Richard and others. They told me it is not necessary at all. If it was they will degas before they ship to us. For AA degas does not cost one penny more. Pure ink in tank. Place cartridge, select ml, start buttom. Machine vacuum the bag, degased ink flow into bag. Why it cost extra is very strange to me. Maybe upgrade equipment? Anyway I will stand by my word and believe what DuPont guys told me long time ago. I will never recommend to NeoFamily if it could be harmful to them. It is just not me.
Cheers! Beers are on me always.


----------



## JeridHill

23spiderman said:


> white ink is another beast all together and will remain in the sealed carts. just my experience in my environment.


I'll also note, the white ink is night and day between the color so the additional TLC on the white is needed more so than the colors. When people are converting over, almost always, they are experiencing issues with their white inks and not as much with the colors.

Also, to bring some clarification to degassing, it's a long process and not simply removing air from a bag of ink. I won't divulge our full process, but let's just say, we are limited to how much we can do on a daily basis because of how much time it does take to properly degas inks. Too much and you can destroy an entire batch of ink, too little, microscopically too much air remains.


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## 23spiderman

Peter, i should have been more clear in my earlier post. i DO shake the white carts every other day or so. i've just never worried about the cmyk. occasionally i do swish them around, but it's related to cleaning and maintenance, and not because i thought i should shake them. but i will start now. but the white, i've always shaken.

Jerid, i was one of the first, if not the first to post on here a couple years ago regarding siphoning out the ink from my "empty" AnaJet carts and saving that ink until i could refill a used cart. i've saved hundreds of dollars (ink prices were much higher 2 years ago) by using that "empty" ink. obviously, the carts and the ink became degassed during the removal and reintroduction. if you have customers who love the bags, then i think that's great. but let me ask you one question, and i'm being sincere, have you sold ANY bagged ink that was NOT degassed? in other words, your bagged system may be where your success lies, in greater measure as to whether or not the ink is degassed prior. as we all know environment plays a HUGE factor, so those going from bottle systems to the bags are obviously going to report positively because that would be a big upgrade. going from AnaJet carts to bags may be an improvement for some as well; i can't speak for them as i myself haven't had any problems with the carts to begin with...which, by the way, have a bag in them.

i will keep a close eye on my bulk carts, as i hadn't thought about the ink evaporating, thereby causing a "thicker" substance. we have been printing a lot lately, so the ink has been moving and not sticking to the sides of the carts.


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## allamerican-aeoon

AA has ZERO complain with cartridge bagged ink system without doing costly process. If there are such a thing ---.
Have a nice weekend all!
Cheers! Beers are on me always.


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## JeridHill

Sean, when we did our original testing, none of our inks were degassed and they were bagged. The more we researched inkjet systems, the more we understood the need to degas. The bagging, micro-filtering and degassing process all play hand in hand to give a more consistent printing experiencing for the masses. Once we began doing the all of the above approach, we ourselves noticed a tremendous difference. Kodak, Epson, HP, Lexmark all degas their inks, it's the nature of inkjet technology. If they didn't do it, then I could see it becoming more of a valid argument. The reality is, the DuPont inks are much thicker than what these other companies offer, so it becomes more critical to handle the inks properly.

I have talked to some people (like I mentioned before) that have told me they have absolutely no problems with bulk cartridges. That's great, and we wouldn't try to persuade them any other way. In the end, we want the end user to have the best experience possible with whatever equipment they are using, it's what will bring them success. Years ago, I purchased a large format printer before they were readily available now. It's before Epson and the prices where quite a bit more. The one I purchased was used, but brand new with the RIP server it was $70,000. In their training and the documentation, they showed the do's and don'ts of using their system. Controlling the environment (mostly humidity) and maintenance was critical for successful printing. It used a bulk ink system and depending on how much ink I had in the refillable tanks, it made a difference in the performance. The one advantage was, when you changed the actual cartridge on the carriage, you were changing the printhead. I would go through more cartridges than I wanted, but that was the nature of it.

When Epson came out with their systems, the head remained and you changed the sealed cartridges. Performance was consistent. The Epson systems cost quite a bit less than the other system(s) I was using, and yet it performed a tremendous amount better than the more expensive printers. I won't say I never had head clogs with the Epson, because I did, but it was quite a bit more controlled and I hardly ever had to contend with it. What works for one person may not work as good for someone else unless you control the internal environment of the system. This way, the outside elements aren't effecting the system anywhere near as much.

I'm not trying to feed misinformation or sell you or anyone else on what we do. The questions are asked and the proof is in the continued happy customer base who are printing better than they ever have before even using their current printer (not manufactured by us).


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## Rodney

Can we let this thread get back to the users experience so it's not just each vendor bragging or defending their machine


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## ywane

i believe many people has good result with belquette bag,do you ever tested put ink without degas to bagged ink jerid? what the result? sorry i just ask


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## JeridHill

ywane said:


> i believe many people has good result with belquette bag,do you ever tested put ink without degas to bagged ink jerid? what the result? sorry i just ask


When we were testing bags and the prototype system, we did not degass our inks and the system was not performing the way we thought it should. Once we moved over to degassing the inks, it made a tremendous difference for us.


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