# new dtg business, about to buy a viper...



## hellafast (May 28, 2010)

hi,
i am starting a dtg printing business and i'm about to purchase a DTG viper. i started reading reviews and i am now hesitating. please contact me with any helpful info, if you have had any problems with the viper. also letme know if you are having good luck with a different brand i should look into...

lisa
479-366-4420


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## IYFGraphics (Sep 28, 2009)

:welcome:We're glad to have you aboard.

I suppose you have read all the posts about the filter clogging on the vipers?

I'm not saying it a bad machine because it isn't, just that they are working through the problems with their ink delivery system right now, not sure if it's been solved totally.

While I can't recommend another printer, I would be cautious of who I bought one from to make sure you got the best tech support for your money.

Hope this helps.


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## FatKat Printz (Dec 26, 2008)

I agree with Jon, we have a K2 and if we didn't have the bag system it would have been sitting on the curb. 

Our next purchase will be a Mod-1 Mod1 | Belquette Large Format Garment Printing

We have seen this printer in action and finally digging ourselves out of the hole the K2 put us in and looking forward on getting this printer. 

If an opportunity presents itself for any refurbished or used Kiosk 2 we would buy it before any other DTG printer because we already know that we can tear it apart and make it work.

WIMS system is a "great idea" but not all great ideas pay the bills..


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## AL Emb'r (Jul 20, 2009)

Another Epson hack job. Buy a real printer. Brother or Kornit.


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## FatKat Printz (Dec 26, 2008)

if wanna do darks..a brother won't do..


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## echorick (Apr 14, 2010)

check out the anajet printer


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## IYFGraphics (Sep 28, 2009)

FatKat Printz said:


> if wanna do darks..a brother won't do..


Fatz while I'm sure he meant no ill towards the thousands of people who own Epson based DTG printers, the other point is that not everyone has $50k plus to spend on a DTG or has the business to get a reasonable ROI on a $50K printer.

JMHO


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## FatKat Printz (Dec 26, 2008)

I am not in a position to buy a 50K printer either.. I was explaining my next choice would be a Belquette product because I am so impressed with the ink system and these printers carry them.

Since, she is in the market for a Viper that's pretty expensive equipment compared to the less expensive models..Kiosk and HM-1 

If she is already having second thoughts (which we didn't do and wish we did when we bought our Kiosk) I gave her a another option...just like everyone else.


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## AL Emb'r (Jul 20, 2009)

IYFGraphics said:


> Fatz while I'm sure he meant no ill towards the thousands of people who own Epson based DTG printers, the other point is that not everyone has $50k plus to spend on a DTG or has the business to get a reasonable ROI on a $50K printer.
> 
> JMHO


Most new business owners don’t take the time to really evaluate their business or the equipment they are going to use before taking the leap. I would imagine that almost most of the people in the US that are using direct to garment printers are like me and don’t print shirts that are going to be sold at a retail price of $15 to $20 dollars. They print shirts for schools, churches, ball teams, and clubs and these folks want a shirt for $8 to $10 dollars. They are used to paying screen print prices and they won’t pay more no mater how cool the design will be, or all the colors used in the direct to garment process. Now since most real businesses have over head like employees, rent, taxes, insurance, and advertising we have to make a profit on the garments produced. This is why ROI is such an important factor when choosing a decoration method such as direct to garment. Using the three Epson based printers I owned we were never able to produce more than 7 dark shirts per hour. This was due to a variety of factors many of which are due to using an Epson desk top printer as the basis of the machines. 
If you factor the over head cost of my business, ink cost, shirt cost, on going maintenance, print head replacement, and most important, labor we would have had to charge more than $20 for a dark shirt just to break even. My customers won’t pay that. Now that we are using the Brother GT 541 and only printing light colors we are able to produce more that 30 shirts an hour and actually turn a profit at $8 per shirt. The largest expense in a business is labor and sometimes it is less expensive in the long run to purchase a more costly machine if you take into account the labor and maintenance saving costs associated with it.


One final note, who is really profiting in the direct to garment business and are the kings of ROI, is the manufacturers of these converted Epson machines. They take a $400 Epson desk top printer from Office Max, bend some sheet metal around it, and then get us suckers to pay them $10 to $20,000 for it.


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## JeridHill (Feb 8, 2006)

AL Emb'r said:


> One final note, who is really profiting in the direct to garment business and are the kings of ROI, is the manufacturers of these converted Epson machines. They take a $400 Epson desk top printer from Office Max, bend some sheet metal around it, and then get us suckers to pay them $10 to $20,000 for it.


I understand why you would believe that. There are so many custom parts that cost hundreds of dollars put into these systems that drive the price up.

I've said this before, but it needs said again. Epson sells their machines at a loss, so you will buy their expensive ink. You can purchase a print head only for almost the cost of a new machine. For the R1800/R1900 printer, it takes 77 cartridges to make up 1 liter of ink. Epson sells these cartridges for $17 each, totaling $1,309 for the same amount of ink we sell ours for $280.

It's an argument that has no merit, when all is said and done. It's a fact the number one EXPENSE a direct to garment manufacturer incurs is tech support. If you want no tech support, we could easily create a very low costing machine with low quality parts. Of course, you would be on your own and we would most likely not sell machines after that.

There are calculators that show the return on your investment. With anyone who has an existing business plug in your numbers and you'll see how quickly these "overpriced" converted machines can be paid off. When the machine is built right, you are still running and at the end of the day, profit is made.

I think you need to take your own advice and sell your tshirts for a fraction of the cost of what you are now. After all, you are only taking a white tshirt that costs $1.50 and using a $1.00 worth of ink. So a $2.50 shirt, you should easily sell for $3.50, right? Just ignore all the other factors involved, just like you are asking us to ignore our factors.


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## adam hans (May 25, 2010)

what about t jet3 that is quite good


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## JeridHill (Feb 8, 2006)

adam hans said:


> what about t jet3 that is quite good


Actually the Tjet3 was the biggest problem US Screen had and ultimately led to their demise. But of course you may have known this, it's hard to tell with forums.


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## AL Emb'r (Jul 20, 2009)

Mr. Hill you are what is wrong with this industry and this forum. When ever someone tells the truth about your products you spin it around and attack the posters credibility until the post goes way off topic or the person does not want to post any more. I intentionally do not mention the Epson based junk I owned before because I don’t want people like you to bash me and beat me up when I tell the truth about how bad of a product it is. Has everyone noticed that if there is a problem with the printers it usually is blamed on the user? The manufacturer and I use that term loosely, is never at fault. You lost your objectivity when you started selling a direct to garment product. People want to hear from USERS of the products and their experience not SALESMEN.



JeridHill said:


> I've said this before, but it needs said again. Epson sells their machines at a loss, so you will buy their expensive ink. You can purchase a print head only for almost the cost of a new machine. For the R1800/R1900 printer, it takes 77 cartridges to make up 1 liter of ink. Epson sells these cartridges for $17 each, totaling $1,309 for the same amount of ink we sell ours for $280.


Who cares about ink cost? Not me. I would rather have a reliable printer that is easy to use and maintain. The ink cost difference will be made up by the savings in labor and overhead.



JeridHill said:


> It's an argument that has no merit, when all is said and done. It's a fact the number one EXPENSE a direct to garment manufacturer incurs is tech support. If you want no tech support, we could easily create a very low costing machine with low quality parts. Of course, you would be on your own and we would most likely not sell machines after that.


Mr. Hill from what I have witnessed I would argue that advertising and trade shows is the largest industry expense not tech support. Got to keep selling products to the suckers.




JeridHill said:


> I understand why you would believe that. There are so many custom parts that cost hundreds of dollars put into these systems that drive the price up.


Mr. Hill continues to sell your Epson based products and bash everyone who does not agree with your biased point of view. I guarantee that it won’t be too much longer before Epson tires of all the people hacking their printers apart to make other products out of them and finally puts an end to it. As you know Mr. Hill no mater what the salesmen say we know Epson does not condone or support any of you direct to garment manufacturers. They also don’t make special print heads for any of the direct to garment manufactures. 
Why are all these guys hacking Epsons apart? Because they don’t have the financial resources to develop their own print heads or electronics like Brother or Kornit. They took the cheap and easy way to make a hacked printer at our expense. That is why there are always problems and work arounds.


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## IYFGraphics (Sep 28, 2009)

adam hans said:


> what about t jet3 that is quite good


Jerid is right the T-Jet 3 is probably what killed US Screen, that said the T-Jet 2 is probably one of the best, most reliable entry level printers, refurbishment with a upgraded ink system and bagged ink I doubt it could be beat for it's cost and quick ROI. 

Yes it's a slow printer, but if your not in a hurry the print quality is very good, the one thing Epson based printers have going for them is print resolution, they can do fine detail that other much more expensive printers have problems with.

We do sell $25 and $35 dollar shirts, we also sell $9 shirts, depends on the market, artwork, etc. Our standard price for one dark shirt is $25, in quantity the price falls to $15-$17 depending, we just finished a 50 shirt order, 6 color design full back & left chest, sport gray, design required a underbase, the customer paid $12.50 ea (s-xl) and will sell the shirts for $18-$20 in his venue.

This customer use to deal with a screen printer, he's paying more for a DTG print and his profit is less but he doesn't have to buy 100+ shirts of each design, he can change his design at any time without incurring more charges, and get one-off shirts to gauge his customers response to a design before submitting a order. We also picked up his decal business which is way more profitable then the DTG but it all adds to the bottom line at the end of the month.

Hope this helps.


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## JeridHill (Feb 8, 2006)

Al Emb'r don't take it so personally. I was in no way bashing you. I was simply giving an explanation of costs, etc that go into developing and maintaining a business that manufactures dtg printers. When I threw the numbers back at you, I was giving a real life situation of what you were doing to those manufacturing Epson based dtg printers.

When you sell a tshirt for $8, you are increasing the prices to make a profit. When the price of an "Epson" based printer is converted over, there are more costs than just what you "see" up front. Not sure how I am what is wrong with this industry, when all I am doing is pointing out facts. I am not twisting words, I am stating things that dtg manufacturers go up against. Funny thing is, I'm not even the manufacturer, but I've been in this industry since the original Tjet was on the market. Call it what you will, I'm just being a realist.

Sorry you felt I was attacking you. In no way whatsoever was that my intent, nor was it my attitude when I responded. All I've tried to do was bring clarification to what I believe is a misguided post due to bad experiences you've encountered in the past.

As a side note, I have NEVER blamed anything on user error. I ALWAYS check basic troubleshooting elements first, then move into more in depth issues when dealing with problems in dtg.

As for the ink comment, I was showing you that the reason Epson printers are so cheap is because they make the vast majority of their money in ink. Since DTG can't do that, they have to place their costs on the front end. That's why the printers sell at the prices they do.

I don't hear bashing of a $55,000 Brother printer, which is over 3 times the cost of ours and other Epson based printers. Oh right, it's because they built theirs from ground up from parts manufactured from other companies, just not Epson.


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## AL Emb'r (Jul 20, 2009)

JeridHill said:


> I don't hear bashing of a $55,000 Brother printer, which is over 3 times the cost of ours and other Epson based printers. Oh right, it's because they built theirs from ground up from parts manufactured from other companies, just not Epson.


 *Who makes Brothers parts?* 
Before I bought the GT 541 I was told that Brother makes their own print heads and electronics. The printers are fabricated and assembled in Brother factories, and Brother makes their own ink. 
Were they lying to me? Is this not true? Please reply if you know other info.


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## Belquette (Sep 12, 2005)

> Why are all these guys hacking Epsons apart? Because they don’t have the financial resources to develop their own print heads or electronics like Brother or Kornit.  They took the cheap and easy way to make a hacked printer at our expense. That is why there are always problems and work arounds.


Not sure what products tainted you so badly, but that's quite insulting as there is a huge amount of technology and resources needed to develop a robust platform surrounding any print engine. We take a lot of pride in our products and stand behind them 100%. The amount of engineering required to build a solid product entails many disciplines and years of experience. 
We have the ability and could have developed the entire print engine plus the associated components to drive a commercial print head but the cost vs image quality and speed did not justify doing it.
The cost of the machine would be much-much higher and the image quality would be lower.
We believe this is the best avenue for end users that want to output high quality images that your customers come to expect. 

There are many leaders in the DTG industry that use Epson based machines 24/7.

_If I overstepped my bounds this post will not be here long..but is our belief we have gone about this from a very logical view. No offense to anyone.
_


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## JeridHill (Feb 8, 2006)

AL Emb'r said:


> *Please reply if you know other info.*


*

I do not know everything they make. They very well may make their own printheads since they manufacture other printers, etc. My point wasn't that they make nothing, it's that it's practically impossible for one company to rely solely on internals to complete a project 100%. I could be wrong and it was an assumption I shouldn't have made.

That being said, in response to what Mark posted is exactly what drives the cost of the Brother and Kornit machines. Building from ground up will add cost. No one can honestly say the quality of print on either of these machines is greater than an Epson based system. So why reinvent the wheel.

Granted, you had a terrible experience, but your experience does not negate the experience of every other person/company who run Epson based dtg machines. The technology has advanced so drastically since you owned a machine, it's night and day. From what I can see, the vast majority of problems have come with improper handling of the ink and ink systems. Yes, some machines experience some major problems outside of that, but I don't see it with products we handle, nor some others.

Bottom line, the machine that fits your company is great for you. You will most likely never buy another Epson based dtg, and that is your preference. But not every person has $55,000 or more to invest in a dtg that prints white ink. So the solution is to offer a machine at a more aggressive price and to be as problem free as humanly possible. It's a much different world in the dtg realm than when you first began.*


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## FatKat Printz (Dec 26, 2008)

AL Emb'r;699477[FONT=Times New Roman said:


> People want to hear from USERS of the products and their experience not SALESMEN.[/font]
> Who cares about ink cost? Not me. I would rather have a reliable printer that is easy to use and maintain. The ink cost difference will be made up by the savings in labor and overhead.


I AM A EPSON USER... I HAVE A DTG KIOSK and I care about ink costs, overhead and reliability. 

I agree that the salesman and distributors of the DTG brand and its products have destroyed this industry. The faith and trust is gone at least from me and from many people that I have spoken too. DTG Brand that is.. I have great experience and help from Equipment Zone, All American Supply and dtginks. com mainly T-Jet and Flexi-Jet companies

After, I bagged my printer with the Belquette ink I began having faith again with the *Epson based printer. *

THE PRINTER itself has proven to be reliable in the sense of what its capable of doing. Its not a workhorse by any means, its not something I would see myself using in high volume company although that is what we were led to believe..by salesman. 

My printer does now what it should have done when we bought it. Everyone has the similar problems mainly with the white ink. 

The ink delivery system made the difference.. NOT WIMS NOT THE BULK INK but the Bags.. 

I went from printing a full hour or two in a 6-8 hour a day of fighting the printer, constant nozzle checks, test prints, wasted ink, wasted t-shirts and waste of time and money.. being told its my fault, being told I am not using V02 inks, being told I didn't buy a damper according sales records, being told the original ribbon cable was a aftermarket ribbon cable because they never saw a red mark on their ribbon cables... etc etc etc.. everyone knows the routine


To printing a 12 hour day with one nozzle check in the morning, 80 consistent black shirts and to finally making money. 

We never thought we would outgrown our printer. Now, we are looking at the Mod-1 just so we can keep up with our current orders. 

We even bought an Epson all in one printer and couldn't be happier that it wasn't my fault. It wasn't the printer.. ITS THE INK DELIVERY SYSTEM !!!

but then again maybe the distributors and salespeople don't know any better because they only know what the manufacturers tell them. 

That is why we only deal with proven manufacturers and user-based distributors not a sales based. 

This all in 3 months... 3 months ago the printer was heading back to the lease company or through the rickety a$$ doors of SWF.. 


Sorry to be so violent but this printer and the headache of dealing with the distributor almost ended my relationship with my fiancee and our business (in less than 2 years) 

I have Belquette, Adam (threadsafe), Dan (dtginks.com), Harry (EZ), Karl Steele...

to thank for saving EVERYTHING.




signed..

AN EPSON USER


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## TahoeTomahawk (Apr 12, 2006)

We too own Kiosks AND a MOD1.
The MOD1 runs as we hoped our Kiosks would.. problem free.
We have no white ink problems and no other hardware problems.

We also were able to see the Brother and the Kornit at the show. Brother has a great name, as others mentioned most likely due to it NOT running white ink. Most DTG users running epson based printers without white ink have far less problems. In fact, look at all the complaints they are usually due to white ink clogging. I don't know if I could justify spending that much on a Brother including higher ink costs and not be able to print white ink.
As for their new white ink printer, give it time and lets see how problem free their white ink system really is. I suspect it will be hard to tell since there won't be that many people shelling out 55k for it.

As for the Kornit .. when we saw this at the show we were absolutely amazed print quality, and not in a good way. Most of the prints came out grainy, they white was more gray probably due to filibration and the detail was not impressive. The types of samples they were printing are what we consider rejects and discard. We would never sacrifice speed for quality, not to mention the absurd price tag.

But without the Kornit guys, we wouldn't have so many new customers contacting us because they are unhappy with their current fulfillment service that use Kornit.


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## Don-ColDesi (Oct 18, 2006)

> As you know Mr. Hill no mater what the salesmen say we know Epson does not condone or support any of you direct to garment manufacturers.


You sir, are speaking about a subject you know nothing about on this point. Epson does indeed have contracts in place with companies who convert their machines/print engines - Roland, Mutoh, Stork, Mimaki, Mastermind and Impression Technology are 6 of them. There may be more, but I am not aware of them. I have seen firsthand the relationship with Mastermind in action and have seen a copy of the I.T. contract. 

Jerid and I often butt heads on things here, but I echo his sentiments, with a slight addition. Technical support AND training, service and warranty are the biggest cost associated with direct to garment printers - aside from the cost of the machines themselves. He is correct in stating that there are a lot of additional components, both hardware and firmware, associated with re-purposing a printer. 

We can agree to disagree on the benefits of a ground up built printer versus a re-purposed printer, but bashing all of us on here who work for companies that sell these products does nothing to promote your agenda. Jerid, Harry, Peter, Mark, myself (and some others I'm sure I have missed!) dedicate a lot of our time to helping folks who have or are looking for a direct to garment printer. Most of us even try to help out those who have brands other than we sell.


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## Big Frog (Dec 6, 2006)

Howdy,

You'll have to pry my Brother printer out of my cold, dead fingers... LMAO 

I love the Brother printer and have personal experience/ownership with two other manufacturers - Anajet and Flexijet. In my opinion, the customer service and support with Anajet is pathetic... and they lied to me point blank on a few occassions. Mark and Brett are fantastic guys and I like the FlexiJet product but it wasn't right for my pure retail business model. In my business we are printing ten dollar bills (t-shirt profits) and I would ask you - "how many ten dollar bills would you like to print in one hour... 40 or 20?" The Brother does 40!

Cheers,
Ron


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## TahoeTomahawk (Apr 12, 2006)

Hi Ron, do you print white ink with your brother?
How is that going for you?


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## Big Frog (Dec 6, 2006)

Actually I do with my 782... It rocks!


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## erich (Apr 15, 2009)

AL Emb'r said:


> *Who makes Brothers parts?*
> Before I bought the GT 541 I was told that Brother makes their own print heads and electronics. The printers are fabricated and assembled in Brother factories, and Brother makes their own ink.
> Were they lying to me? Is this not true? Please reply if you know other info.


I only just caught onto this thread, wow, what a can of worms....

Brother does not make their own print heads nor do they make their own ink, they do design and assemble the machine in their own factory.

This is not meant to be a disparaging comment towards Brother, most wide format machine manufacturers will use Xaar or Spectra development kits and build their machine around this.

In a sence no different to companies who use Epson technology under a license agreement.

Further more I echo Jerid and Don's comments.

These machines are a lot more than just a hack job, there is a reason why we employ software/hardware/electronics and test engineers. Staff to write manuals and create support materials.
Invest in labratories, software systems for design, supports staff, global training seminars with distributors etc etc. This is all done to build a quality machine and provide suitable support for end users.

Regards
Jerry
DTG Digital


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## WholesalePrint (Sep 23, 2008)

Please don't compare the Hacking of a Epson to a Brother or a kornit. LMAO Their not even on the same level LMFBO!!!!


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## Don-ColDesi (Oct 18, 2006)

> Please don't compare the Hacking of a Epson to a Brother or a kornit. LMAO Their not even on the same level LMFBO!!!!


Fair enough, but let's also not compare the print quality of the Xaar/Spectra heads to the print quality of the Epson heads. A very small percentage of the potential direct to garment printer market can justify the cost of a Kornit or Brother. There is a demand to be met for customers in this demographic, the Epson based machines meet that need. People need to do their homework, know their real application of the machine and make an educated buying decision based on their research.


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## Don-ColDesi (Oct 18, 2006)

> "how many ten dollar bills would you like to print in one hour... 40 or 20?" The Brother does 40!


So do 2 Vipers for about 2/3 the cost AND at about a $1 per shirt less than the Brother 782 and with a far more versatile platen system. If you opt to go with a smaller format machine - HM1-C, K3, Mod-1, Velocijet, etc. The cost of two is about half that of a 782 and your production rate would actually be higher than the 782, again at about $1 per shirt less consumables cost. So, you can actually print $11 bills with the Epson based machines.


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## TahoeTomahawk (Apr 12, 2006)

Don-SWF East said:


> So do 2 Vipers for about 2/3 the cost AND at about a $1 per shirt less than the Brother 782 and with a far more versatile platen system. If you opt to go with a smaller format machine - HM1-C, K3, Mod-1, Velocijet, etc. The cost of two is about half that of a 782 and your production rate would actually be higher than the 782, again at about $1 per shirt less consumables cost. So, you can actually print $11 bills with the Epson based machines.


I agree Don.
With our MOD1 we had a batch of white T's that took almost exactly 1 min to print. Luckily the MOD's platen system is not anchored to the print bed so we were able to have shirts staged and ready to go. I think that is a far better solution because not only does it allow you to stage shirts in advance, it helps with alignment of the print area on the shirt. - Just my opinion.


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## AL Emb'r (Jul 20, 2009)

Guys being the curious sort of person that I am I called Brother and asked them about making their own print heads and ink. They put me in touch with one of the engineers that designs the printers. He told me that they do make their own print heads in their Brother factory and they make their own ink from raw materials in their own factory. He said that they would put this in writing. 
I have heard so many lies and stories from the Epson converters that it is a joy to here someone step up and make a bold statement like this. 
Will any of you Epson converters put in writing that you work directly with Epson or that Epson makes special print heads for you or that Epson approves of you hacking their printers? 
Your sales people have told me this at trade shows. You know who you are. Put it in writing!


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## JeridHill (Feb 8, 2006)

AL Emb'r said:


> Will any of you Epson converters put in writing that you work directly with Epson or that Epson makes special print heads for you or that Epson approves of you hacking their printers


First of all, to my knowledge, no one ever said they are working directly with Epson and no one has ever claimed Epson makes special print heads for them. IF there had been someone who said that to you, then they flat out lied. Your bad experience does not mean every company that converts over an Epson based system makes the same claims. Like I've said before, I've been in this industry since the original Tjet was released (before white ink), and I have NEVER heard this from anyone.

As for Epson approving of their printers being hacked, it's hard to tell. I can say, certain code can only be released by Epson (firmware based). There is RIP software that utilizes this code legally, so that says something about Epson's knowledge of what is happening in this industry.

What is good for someone else, may not be good for you and vice versa. I just get tired of hearing the argument painted with such a broad stroke. There are THOUSANDS of Epson based direct to garment printers on the market today and the vast majority of them are printing and proving successful for the owners. Your claims not only insults the manufacturers, it insults the intelligence of every Epson based direct to garment owner today. Remember, you were one of them.


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## Big Frog (Dec 6, 2006)

Wow, someone remind me not to get involved in these pissing contests. I was trying to be funny and express my *preference* in a DTG machine. 

Don't we all have to evaluate the features and benefits of each DTG platform to be sure it makes sense for our business model. Is it not up to the manufacturers and reps to be forthcoming with information both good and bad so that we as business professionals can make an informed decision. To me, this is the real discussion.

I have personal experience with four machines in long-term production environments (not demos) and three happen to be Epson based printers. Two of the three are fantastic! I have major beef with Anajet because they are liars.

I will be buying a lot of machines over the next year, perhaps as many as 50. I mainly use this forum to stay informed of the latest and greatest developments in our industry so I can purchase the best machines for my businesses (it is great for that). And not to get involved in these petty "I'm better than you" contests. You know what they say, "opinions are like..." so I'll keep mine to myself going forward.

I sincerely apologize if what I thougth to be seemingly harmless comments offended anyone.


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## AL Emb'r (Jul 20, 2009)

Thanks for stepping up Don-SWF. Mr. Hill must be drinking the Kool-Aid.


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## Don-ColDesi (Oct 18, 2006)

AL Emb'r said:


> Will any of you Epson converters put in writing that you work directly with Epson or that Epson makes special print heads for you or that Epson approves of you hacking their printers?
> Your sales people have told me this at trade shows. You know who you are. Put it in writing!


Both manufacturers of the DTG Brand of printers - Mastermind and Impression Technology - work with Epson. They pay inflated pricing (above retail) for the hardware to compensate for Epson's lost ink revenues. The HM1-C printer (manufactured by Mastermind) has an Epson-approved chipset that allows for 200 ml chips as opposed to the standard 18 ml chips native to the Espon 2400 engine that the machine is based on. 

Good enough for you? 

I do not doubt that Brother is building their own printers, it is what they do. The printheads are built under license from Xaar and Spectra. If they are indeed making their own inks and then reselling them at $700-800 per liter they are making a staggering profit margin on them as they have eliminated an entire tier from the sales process.


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## TahoeTomahawk (Apr 12, 2006)

AL Emb'r said:


> Guys being the curious sort of person that I am I called Brother and asked them about making their own print heads and ink. They put me in touch with one of the engineers that designs the printers. He told me that they do make their own print heads in their Brother factory and they make their own ink from raw materials in their own factory. He said that they would put this in writing.
> I have heard so many lies and stories from the Epson converters that it is a joy to here someone step up and make a bold statement like this.
> Will any of you Epson converters put in writing that you work directly with Epson or that Epson makes special print heads for you or that Epson approves of you hacking their printers?
> Your sales people have told me this at trade shows. You know who you are. Put it in writing!


Does it really matter? In the end it's about print results. I wouldn't give a you know what if my machine was manufactured by Epson as a DTG printer or Modified, Improved or Hacked by someone else.

You really should take issue with something else, because what I am reading is that you manufactured something that is out performed by a Hack Job. That is like bashing your own engineering team.


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## FatKat Printz (Dec 26, 2008)

word to the wise.. when asking what kind of printer you should choose.. 

***DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH***

Do the legwork

Read the pro's and con's .. 

Look into ink costs (not how much a print is gonna cost but how much a liter of ink is gonna cost) Look into repair parts.. etc etc 

Research the forums on each brand and see what kind of problems people are having with theirs..Read the answers that are given and which company rep or tech is the most responsive

But DON'T ALWAYS BELIEVE WHAT YOU READ EITHER.. 

I don't think getting samples should be part of your decision. Remember the samples are being done by a professional who has been doing it for many years so of course its gonna look good. VISIT the showrooms, PM current and former owners, GO TO THE ISS SHOWS

Its your pocketbook not ours... we know what works for us and try to educate those that don't know but in the end its your choice.

There are several brands out there, there are several opinions, there are several disgruntled and happy customers with every company..

Its like a buying a car.. except this kind of car is bringing in income or lack there of when you buy a crappy machine. 

Use the forum for your research, take notes don't just ask because DTG is very opinionated..

I have learned more on the forums (without asking) by looking by myself and making the calls and talking to people rather then just asking a question cause you see where it led to.


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## IYFGraphics (Sep 28, 2009)

Lots of info in this thread along with a lot of opinions, the way the topic has turned from the Op's original post reminds me of the GM vs Ford vs Chrysler you get with car guys and as in cars we buy a piece of machinery to do a given task and hope that it will do it error free, not always the case with cars or DTG printers regardless of who the manufactures might be.

I try to read all the posts about different printers both good and bad, the one thing I see in common is that everyone can get a bad printer regardless of manufacture (except for Peter's Neo-flex). I own a Epson based printer, yeah it's a hack of a 2200 that US Screen produced that Don like's to call a Jukebox (no offense Don) thing is that without this forum and all the helpful posts/people I doubt I'd have had the success I have had with this printer, if I had to go blind or rely on tech support no matter how good it is I doubt I could have gained the knowledge to keep this printer running much less make any money with it.

While I would agree that the Brother 541 is probably the best non-white ink printer on the market most of us need white ink, our customer base requires dark garments, our designs require a underbase and frankly the 541 just can't do it and the 782 is way out of reach for a lot of us, we don't do production work, a Kornit is like some sort of wet dream to have enough demand to keep it running and making money 24/7 ....I don't want to be that big a printer!

We print maybe a 1000 to 1500 shirts a year, make a good profit, we are growing as a business and our Epson based printer has opened doors that has brought us more sales in the vinyl end of our business which is what it is suppose to do.

My point is that like so many others we got into DTG on a shoestring with a minimal investment, we knew what to expect out of our printer and had no grand illusion that it was the best/fastest/highest print quality printer on the market, we actually expected many more problems then we have encountered and the printer as given us a very short ROI which is what we wanted.

I'm sure in another year I'll want to upgrade to a newer faster printer, but unless things change it'll be another Epson based DTG printer.

JMHO


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## kevrokr (Feb 26, 2007)

_Here is some food for thought..._
Company “X” is looking for a DTG fulfillment service. 
They send their test file to several DTG fulfillment service companies that they find on the web.
Company “X” then compares the quality of the finished products against the different DTG fulfillment companies for image detail, quality, price, and delivery….etc.
Company “X” has no concern which machine was used, but the print that stands out among the others will undoubtedly get the job.
Guess what platform that might be?


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