# IronAll Dark vs Vinyl Cutter



## Chani (Jun 18, 2007)

I'm still working on my JPSS tests, but I'm also working on my IronAll Dark plotter tests.

So far I haven't had much luck. I decided that I was going to approach this paper like I have other opaques in the past. Well, it doesn't work that way because this is basically printed rubber on a backing sheet. 

I've decided to try out the settings that someone else had luck with, which is 60 gm downforce with a 60 degree blade. I'll cut that within the next hour or so and see if it works.

Again, I'll be cutting at 60 gm downforce with a 60 degree blade, but I'll also be slowing the speed of our plotter to about 5cm/s or so. VERY slow, but when I tried faster speeds before it just skipped along the surface of these transfers. it really is like cutting bubble gum. 

One other thing I'm having troubles with is because of the design I'll be cutting (essentially the same as the design in my other thread here: http://www.t-shirtforums.com/heat-press-heat-transfers/t38240.html ) is that I'll be needing to use Magic Mask as a transfer tape. The problem is that the Magic Mask isn't getting a very good grip on the surface of the IronAll Dark and when I peel the backer off it shifts a little on the Magic Mask.  I'm going to use a brand-new sheet of Magic Mask for this test. I hope that works...

Again, I'll take pictures and post exactly what I did and all of the settings I use (well, I guess I just did.  ).

Hope I can get it! I have this sheet that I just printed and one other. After that, I'll need to wait for the other 10 sheets that I ordered last night.


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## Chani (Jun 18, 2007)

Getting frustrated.  

Those settings didn't work, either. I must need even more downforce. It's just punching a series of holes in the cut lines. Even with that slow of a speed it's bunching the transfer up, releasing, punching a hole, rinse and repeat.

I'm wondering if we're going about this wrong...I wonder if it would be better to use a LOWER angle blade like a 45 so it doesn't catch it as much and just slices through.

I'll wait to see if anyone else has had success with this before I cut my last sheet. I don't want to have to wait another 3-4 days before I can try this again!


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## fred333 (Jan 25, 2008)

I have not had much success either. We are still racking our brains over it.


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## Chani (Jun 18, 2007)

Thanks. At least I'm not the only one...

For JetDark, I used 30 gm downforce and cut at normal speed. It's just not working that way with IronAll Dark. 

Like I said, I think I'll switch to a 45 degree blade and more downforce. We'll see how that goes. I might go as high as 120 gm downforce with a 45 degree blade on my next try.


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## Lnfortun (Feb 18, 2006)

Chani said:


> Getting frustrated.
> 
> Those settings didn't work, either. I must need even more downforce. It's just punching a series of holes in the cut lines. Even with that slow of a speed it's bunching the transfer up, releasing, punching a hole, rinse and repeat.
> 
> ...


Try sending a PM to gordo. He is the one claiming to be succesful in cutting the paper with 60 degree blade and 60 grams of down force.


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## Chani (Jun 18, 2007)

I think I'll do that.

It was snagging the transfer as I tried to cut it at that downforce.

I WILL get this, but I may need to wait until I get those other 10 sheets in a couple of days (they shipped today). The other problem is going to be the Magic Mask as transfer tape as the IronAll Dark doesn't like to stick to it...


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## amv101 (Jul 16, 2007)

The 60 degree blade is really made for tougher, thicker material. And the 45 degree blade is for thin material.

Think of it like holding an xacto-knife and cutting different materials. The best way to cut a thin piece of paper with an xacto is to almost lay it down (45 degree) and run it across the surface, this keeps the material from bunching up. Now imagine using the same blade to cut through cardboard. You would hold the blade almost straight up (60 degree). This helps cut any contours, because the tip of the blade is almost going straight through the material, and not going through at an angle.

For the printable heat transfer paper, you only need a 45 degree blade. 60 degree blades are better suited for thick sign vinyl and thick transfer materials like Flock, Glitter, and RefLite.

Yah I dont have any luck with magicmask either...


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## Chani (Jun 18, 2007)

That's exactly what I was thinking. Just like slicing bread. You don't just put your knife on it and press down (60 degree blade), you cut slice side-to-side (45 degree blade, more or less). I know that's not an exact analogy, but that's sort of the basics of what I'm thinking.

IronAll Dark is NOT rigid. It's rubber. You slice it. So, therefore, tomorrow I'll be using a 45 degree blade with more downforce. I'm still not sure if I should keep my speed slow or speed it up. That's where I wouldn't mind some advice...


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## Lnfortun (Feb 18, 2006)

45 degrees blade sounds logical. However, Gordo the member who claimed to be successful had a tough time cutting the transfer with 45 degrees blade. I went to Specialty Graphics website and searched for cutting stretchy material. Specialty Graphics recommended to use 60 degrees blade. When I posted my findings Gordo tried using the 60 degrees blade and he said it worked for him with 60 grams down force. Haven't read any post from him after that.

Here are the series of posts that led to success:

http://www.t-shirtforums.com/p172460-post73.html
http://www.t-shirtforums.com/p173332-post81.html
http://www.t-shirtforums.com/p178795-post84.html

He owns a GX24 and you have Graphtec. Could that be the difference?


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## amv101 (Jul 16, 2007)

Seems logical as well, but it cant be any thicker and more elastic, than standard sign vinyl, which I use 45 degree blades all the time.

Also, make sure your blade is new and sharp.

Another rule of thumb, with thin materials, your cuts should be light and quick, with a blade angled towards the material..... for thicker materials, your cuts should be heavy and slow, and blade angled above the material.

If you ever seen anyone cut through steel, vs paper... you would see this.

Not sure why its not working tho, sometimes a bad batch of paper gets out.


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## Lnfortun (Feb 18, 2006)

I forgot to mention that prior to the first post I made a suggestion using a sandwich technique. Having the opaque material sandwiched between a carrier sheet (Magic mask?) and the paper backing then cut from the paper back side through the opaque but not the carrier sheet. Not usre if he used that in addtion to 60 degree/60 grams settings.


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## Chani (Jun 18, 2007)

That's an interesting technique, but I don't think it would work with IronAll Dark, only because it doesn't seem to want to stick to Magic Mask. 

IronAll Dark is also pretty thick...much thicker than sign vinyl. Most sign vinyl is 2-4 mil, while IronAll Dark is 5 mil (got out my calipers yesterday). and again, it's very rubbery. It's also FAR more stretchy than any vinyl I've ever seen.

To be perfectly honest, a vinyl cutter is a vinyl cutter when you're talking about the range of cutters that the Roland and Graphtec are in. It's not NOT working for me because I use a Graphtec. The thing that Gordo never posted was his cutting speed. That's an important bit of info, and perhaps I've been going about it all wrong with the super-slow cuts. Tomorrow I'll use the 45 degree blade, more downforce, and faster cutting speeds, and see if that works.

Thanks, everyone! I can use all the advice people can give me!


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## Chani (Jun 18, 2007)

Sooooooooooooooooooooo close!

This time I tried a 45 degree blade, 130 gm downforce, and 25 cm/s cutting speed. I think if I up it to about 140 or 150 gm downforce that will be it.

It didn't weed easily at all, but way more was cut this time, and I didn't hear all that many snags, tho I heard some as it was cutting.

I won't be getting any more IronAll Dark until tomorrow or Thursday, but I feel like I'll get it the first day I have that in hand. 

I'll keep y'all posted.


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## prometheus (Oct 19, 2006)

Chani said:


> (got out my calipers yesterday)


Only from you would I see a post saying this.  

Look forward to seeing/hearing the results.


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## Chani (Jun 18, 2007)

LOL! 

It looks like my new samples will arrive tomorrow, so I'll get right to work when they get here.


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## transfer fun (Aug 17, 2006)

Chani said:


> LOL!
> 
> It looks like my new samples will arrive tomorrow, so I'll get right to work when they get here.


Try this Chani:

 Model Cutter Used For Testing: Roland GX-24 Camm-1 servo
Cutting Speed: 40-50cm/s
Cutting Force: 130-140gf
Blade Offset: 0.250mm
Cutting Directions: <A


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## Chani (Jun 18, 2007)

Thanks!

If what I was going to try didn't work, I'll try that.

I was planning on trying 150gm downforce at about 20-25cm/s.

Sorry, everyone, I've been involved in another project, but I WILL get back to this!


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## AdamnSmith (Dec 10, 2007)

I've got my eye on you Thread... I've got my eye on you.


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## angelic_endeavor (Sep 19, 2007)

Still waiting on baited breath -- I know if ANYONE can do it, Chani will!


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## AdamnSmith (Dec 10, 2007)

So... anything? new Chani  ? 

Im holding off on buying iron-all because if I cannot cut with a plotter it then it wont be useful to me. hehe

Any suggestions other than iron-all for me? I know Ive asked this before - but cannot remember.


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## Girlzndollz (Oct 3, 2007)

You will probably miss the one day sale then. It ends tomorrow. If you want any info, heres a link:http://www.t-shirtforums.com/heat-press-heat-transfers/t41299.html#post244245


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## AdamnSmith (Dec 10, 2007)

Yeah, I saw your ads a few times about it. Im not as much worried about the sale as I am curious about the status of this research on Iron-all dark VS plotter. )


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## Girlzndollz (Oct 3, 2007)

Yes, maybe next time. I know Chani was working hard on this. The Ironall Dk wasn't cooperating so much, was it? I have to agree with you guys, using this with a plotter would be nice. 

I hope your tests get easier, Chani. Thanks for doing this. 

If I hear of anymore sales, after the tests are done, I promise as usual to pass them on. Keep saving our money whenever we can, especially on Ironall dark. Better $$ in my pocket than out of it!

I do love the way a good sale can bring down my price per piece on a shirt.

Realize I share the savings info for your own benefit, has nothing to do with me, than asking you share sales, discounts and coupon codes with me in the future. Thanks all.


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## Chani (Jun 18, 2007)

Thanks for posting the sale, Kelly. Actually, this time I DID get a notice of it! 

As for IronAll Dark, this kinda got put on the backburner because of an order that we need to fill and the JPSS Cold-Peel tests. Now, today I'm sick. 

I haven't given up on this! I'll need to reread the entire thread to make sure I remember the settings that I've used, but I'm sure I'm VERY close... 

I don't want to use it if I can't use it with my plotter, too. I don't really like most rectangular designs (tho they're not all bad) for me, and I'm sure not going to hand-trim every transfers! 

Thanks for everyone's interest in this!  I won't disappoint you.


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## Girlzndollz (Oct 3, 2007)

Chani said:


> 1. Thanks for posting the sale, Kelly. Actually, this time I DID get a notice of it!
> 2. Now, today I'm sick.
> 3.Thanks for everyone's interest in this!  I won't disappoint you.


1. I was looking for you to write to ask if you got it. Yeah!! That is, if you end up being able to use the Ironall Dark - yeah! - otherwise, the sale isn't that big of a deal.
2. Hope you feel better soon!  It's Friday, that stinks! 
3. You *never* disappoint!!! Everyone benefits greatly from your work and sharing.


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## Chani (Jun 18, 2007)

Bad news. 

I ordered two sample packs of IronAll Dark a while ago, but only opened the package today. Turns out they only sent one pack, because I only had five sheets to work with, and those are gone now. 

Getting there, but still not there yet. 

I'll email New Milford right away to see if they'll send another sample pack out, since they only sent one.

I'm getting really frustrated with this paper!


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## Girlzndollz (Oct 3, 2007)

Good luck with that paper, Chani. I hope things turn around, because being frustrated is no fun. 

I'm steering away from getting a plotter, so I won't be around the thread to hear how it all turns out. Just wanted to wish you luck, I know alot of people will be happy if you indeed can get this stuff to cut on your plotter. Good luck, and I hope you are feeling better today.


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## confusid (Feb 29, 2008)

Hi, first post here. I am very new to the business, looking to start something up. I want to do a test run of 100 shirts to see if my idea will sell, but am confused on how to go about it. I am looking to print on mainly/all dark shirts. What is the best paper to use that can be cut? I am using an intricate design, so I need something that can be cut on a plotter. Thanks.


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## mrdavid (Sep 14, 2007)

Vinyl is the only thing I would use


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## AdamnSmith (Dec 10, 2007)

He probably needs to print the design... Vinyl wont help him unless its only a few colors... not if he needs to print it.


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## printchic (Apr 3, 2006)

Hi Chani,

Not sure this will help you have probably tried all things but i was thinking;

I have a craft robo pro II and while i haven't tried using the cutter to cut around contours yet i notice they have a sturdy plastic carrier sheet (it has a sticky surface) that you attach things you wish to cut out to keep them positioned.

I am thinking your problem is that using magic mask is flimsy material so there's "NOTHING" to keep the iron all from giving/shifting when it goes back and forth in the machine. With the plastic carrier sheet that comes with the craft robo it may keep the iron all "straight" instead of bending a lot when it goes back and forth in the machine. 

For example look at this post on the forum;

http://www.t-shirtforums.com/vinyl-cutters-plotters-transfers/t37032.html

Hope this helps,

Signed,
Printchic


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## Lnfortun (Feb 18, 2006)

printchic said:


> Hi Chani,
> 
> Not sure this will help you have probably tried all things but i was thinking;
> 
> ...


Speaking of the carrier sheet. It has a very limited number of times it can be used and the out it goes. It is spelled out in the manual. At $19.00 a shut it can get very costly. I tried laying down a sheet of carrier that I bought from Imprintables but it would not stay because of the glossy plastic backing of the carrier sheet and the worn out adhesive on the CRP carrier. I was hoping I can at least salvage the Robo Craft Pro stiff carrier. Bummer  .


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## printchic (Apr 3, 2006)

lnfortun said:


> Speaking of the carrier sheet. It has a very limited number of times it can be used and the out it goes. It is spelled out in the manual. At $19.00 a shut it can get very costly...
> 
> I was hoping I can at least salvage the Robo Craft Pro stiff carrier. Bummer  .


I have to look at my carrier sheets package as i haven't tried to cut out anything yet. There has to be somewhere it can be purchased like at a hardware or craft store, etc. Can't believe we have to pay $19 each time once it wears out.

Signed,
Angela H.


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## Lnfortun (Feb 18, 2006)

printchic said:


> I have to look at my carrier sheets package as i haven't tried to cut out anything yet. There has to be somewhere it can be purchased like at a hardware or craft store, etc. Can't believe we have to pay $19 each time once it wears out.
> 
> Signed,
> Angela H.


Sure you can the foam part in a craft store but the material that has adhesive is the thing to be concerend about. Unless you use a very wide light tack double sided tape. I tried to peel it off but was afraid I might tear the foam backing. Well may be when it becomes totaly useless anymore then I will do it.

BTW Michael's Hobby store has the foam sheet.


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## printchic (Apr 3, 2006)

lnfortun said:


> Sure you can the foam part in a craft store but the material that has adhesive is the thing to be concerend about. Unless you use a very wide light tack double sided tape. I tried to peel it off but was afraid I might tear the foam backing. Well may be when it becomes totaly useless anymore then I will do it.
> 
> BTW Michael's Hobby store has the foam sheet.


What about using a light tack spray? I have used that a lot for vinyl that fall off the carrier sheet and although it says light tack spray it actually hold quite well.

Equipment ID - Stahls' Accessories

See spray 3rd from bottom of page


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## Lnfortun (Feb 18, 2006)

printchic said:


> What about using a light tack spray? I have used that a lot for vinyl that fall off the carrier sheet and although it says light tack spray it actually hold quite well.
> 
> Equipment ID - Stahls' Accessories
> 
> See spray 3rd from bottom of page


Not familiar with the spray you are using. I tried both Stahls' light tack for vinyl and Adhesive spray for embroidery but neither one held the carrier mask from Imprintables. I even sparyed right on the existing sticky surface of the CRP carrier sheet. It would probably work for heat transfer paper. It would be messy though.


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## ghambley (Dec 9, 2007)

I was able to cut out names on ironall dark with my UScutters 24' laser cutter thiese are the settings 110gm downforce at 60 cm/s. It weeded well but had a few sharp inside corners not cut well but a exacto knife and it was no problem. The font I was using was forte.


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## Chani (Jun 18, 2007)

Thanks, Gary, I'll need to try that, too.

Here's another solution, but it only works with simpler designs, and won't work at all with text. Print your transfer with your reg marks. Peel it OFF of the paper backer, then place your transfer directly onto Magic Mask. We used 120g downforce and 20 cm/sec, and it seemed to work well. With a 45 degree blade.

What blade did you use, Gary? Also, did you use Magic Mask or any carrier sheet? How did you transfer the text so that it all stayed in place?

We've found that it isn't the Magic Mask that was the problem, but the paper backing sheet for the transfer itself was providing just enough give to create uneven cuts.

The problem with the direct to MM method is that there's no way to transfer that back to another sheet of Magic Mask because the adhesive side of the IronAll Dark is more receptive to the adhesive on the Magic Mask than the print side is, so it won't come up. No way to keep everything aligned.  So you'll need to adapt your designs so that all elements are connected in some way.

I'll keep experimenting, but I'm about to give up on it for highly complex or multi-element designs. It's just not working the way I'd like it to...


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## ghambley (Dec 9, 2007)

I used a 45 degree blade and standard vinyl application tape and it left no trace on a black shirt when pressed for 25 sec at 385. No I didn't use any type of carrier sheet.


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## ashamutt (Feb 22, 2008)

ok....It has been over 1 year now!! LOL!!!

Has ANYONE figured this out yet???????

What are the exact cutter settings?

....or am I missing out on a new thread or something?? LOL


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## ashamutt (Feb 22, 2008)

Well.... I emailed Coastal about this problem....."_cutting ironall dark with a cutter/plotter machine_".....since they have it on their web site that this is possible.
(coastal is always so wonderfully quick to respond and always very helpful!!!) 


Here is what Tonya Robertson wrote to me....(& Clay confirmed this is a good starting point!) 

"Depending on your blade's current condition, settings could vary. With a new blade installed and a Roland GX-24, here is a good start....

Cutting speed: 40-50cm
Cutting Force: 130-140gf
Blade Offset: .250mm


I now need to ask her what degree of blade try.


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## ashamutt (Feb 22, 2008)

About the blade degree....
Tonya just told me.....
"You can use a 45 degree blade. The newer the better! If you find it hard to cut through with your blade, you probably need a new one."


The Coastal people are so helpful!!!!


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