# online t-shirt design business model/pricing structure discussion



## bluetooter (Oct 3, 2008)

I found a group of developers who are seriously well underway with an online product designer that will blow Piki/Deconetwork away. It clearly is a comprehensive and different approach.

I got to see a preliminary beta this past week and it is very impressive. The tool uses FLEX, IMAGEMAJICK and PHP. It offers both screenprinting and DTG with a very smart backend that can use pricing from a variety of lookup tables and understands the difference between the 2 printing processes.

All the features missing from Piki are there including shopping carts that can use any gateway that you want, integrated real time shipping costs and alot more including the ability to upload almost any file type.

What I found most interesting is that the shopping cart can logically apply pricing so that customers can easily mix and match products and designs at will and still get accurate quantity discounts. Its like having a excel spreadsheet built into the backend.

The backend has a reporting system that can tell you everything about anyone using the tool.

The tool is a blend of the simplicity and ease of use like Customink or OSSdesigner, with FLEX programming and Imagemajick it has very cool design features similar to bluecotton, but uniquely different and the setup will allow affiliate or zazzle like substores with unlimited pricing structures.

Best of all it is NOT going to be a hosted service, this will be a reasonably priced software package for the masses ($3,000 to $7,000) that you buy and have loaded onto your server or web hosting service. So there are no monthly fees, no credits, no annual fees, and no limits on what you can offer as far as products or clipart. Since you will own it, its up to you how you want to set it up.

Once I have more information, I will keep everyone posted. Its not ready for primetime yet, but it is definitely a new alternative.


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## Riderz Ready (Sep 18, 2008)

*Re: New alternative to Deconetwork*

There has been of several of these solutions in the development over the past year but none seem to make it to market. Hopefully that will change as competition drives development. There is a huge gap between $3,000-$7,000. Furthermore no vertical market software can remain financially stable without reoccuring revenue whether that be a hosted model or annual support/development fees. The cost of development and enhancements will exceed sales revenue in almost any environment. 



bluetooter said:


> I found a group of developers who are seriously well underway with an online product designer that will blow Piki/Deconetwork away. It clearly is a comprehensive and different approach.
> 
> I got to see a preliminary beta this past week and it is very impressive. The tool uses FLEX, IMAGEMAJICK and PHP. It offers both screenprinting and DTG with a very smart backend that can use pricing from a variety of lookup tables and understands the difference between the 2 printing processes.
> 
> ...


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## bluetooter (Oct 3, 2008)

*Re: Those with DecoNetwork sites*

Its interesting though, if you recall there was a posting about a site called www.aviary.com It is totally free and absolutely amazing.

I think that the market for online design solutions is going to be changing rapidly. The new programming languages and features like Imagemajick along with Flex will reduce development costs dramatically. I have no idea what development costs are, but I think that whoever comes to market in our industry with a tool like this will make a fortune at that kind of price range. Personally, I would rather own and control the software versus paying endless fees.

After I found aviary, I started making inquiries and there are many developers working on solutions, but this group has got it together. Time will tell, but from what I was told and what I could clearly see in Beta, this may become reality this summer.


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## Daniel Slatkin (Jun 25, 2008)

*Re: Those with DecoNetwork sites*

When it comes to self hosting a system the size one hopes to grow to when we are talking a successful print on demand provider is a full time job. You have to look at things like security, keeping up to date with ever changing browser needs, Managing extensive sql databases, etc.. I could go on and on. You are not just paying phantom fees, without constant updates you will find that any system quickly becomes yesterdays news. It becomes quite demanding on your server running a self replicating site network and most hosting providers don't allot for this so home hosting of a system this size becomes unpractical. Also by maintaining the core software on one network server system it allows for easy updates and support when you run into problems.


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## bluetooter (Oct 3, 2008)

*Re: Those with DecoNetwork sites*

There are many high powered hosting sites that can easily accomodate this type of software. It is not necessary to own and operate your own servers. Yes, you will pay a monthly fee to have the software hosted and maintained. I am in no way suggesting that you become your own IT center. There is a difference between self hosting and having software applications using PHP installed on a large professionally run server network that routinely offer security and other standard operating features. 

I think that controlling operating costs is critical and spending $3000 plus per year, year after year with a piki or someone else in the long run is not cost effective.

It used to be in the early years of the internet when you wanted a website you had to have it created and hosted by the website developer. Today, that is practically unheard of. So, why would this be any different? If the software works, it works.

I had a long conversation with Dean the owner of www.shirttools.com in the UK and although he is offering the same kind of concept (just at a much simpler level), he said that the demand is incredible and his very, very basic tool is selling at $999, but you load it onto your server, you control it, you own it.

I believe that is the future for online product design, and not for just t-shirts, but for any kind of product that promotes custom design and fulfillment.


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## Riderz Ready (Sep 18, 2008)

*Re: Those with DecoNetwork sites*

I worked for a very large software developer for 20+ years and the model never changes. You MUST have 3-5 times the amount of reoccuring revenue versus sales revenue to have a viable product that is maintained, supported, and enhanced. What you call this annual cost is meaningless. Some people call it a usage fee, others call it a support fee, some call it an enhancement fee. Bottom line without it a software developer will not be able to provide support, enhancement and rewrties. The more successful an application the more critical this model becomes. If you do not have a reoccuring revenue stream then you basically have the software version of a ponzi scheme. In time it will collapse. IF a software developer provides a solid product, supports it and provides enhancements then there will never be an issue with the annual cost.

One other point, hosted models for sotware applications are actually becoming much more common then past years as even the largest corporations have huge IT resource issues. More and more apps are being pushed outside of company walls and being hosted by the application provider.


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## bluetooter (Oct 3, 2008)

*Re: Those with DecoNetwork sites*

Well, I do not disagree, but if the developer provides support and enhancements for a fee then it may be totally viable. Especially, if the software performs as advertised then it may have working value for 3 to 5 years.

Well written software does not need constant rewrites. I have various software packages that I have purchased over the years and they work just fine year after year without any need to upgrade or change.

It all depends on what your needs are. I would rather purchase a well developed software tool that costs $3,000 which will serve my purposes for 3, 4 or 5 years versus paying the exact same amount year after year after year. Spending $3,000 once every 5 years versus $15,000 over 5 years represents a clear value to me. How the software developer makes money and sales is not really my concern! But if they sell enough versions, they will make more than enough to support what they sell and offer upgrades and enhancements.


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## Riderz Ready (Sep 18, 2008)

*Re: Those with DecoNetwork sites*

We could go in circles on this issue but trust me - the more an application is sold the more there becomes a need for a reoccuring revenue. There is a reason there are very few small, successful software shops. 

Software developers do not want to have people out on the market using 3-5 year old code. It is the worst thing they can do for their sales effort. Any software company that allows people to buy an application in a competitive vertical market without reoccuring annual fees that include enhancements will not last 3 years in the market. It has been proven over and over again


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## bluetooter (Oct 3, 2008)

*Re: Those with DecoNetwork sites*

So what! That is not what this is about. We are not discussing the viability of the software business and how to be a successful developer.

If a company offers a software package that you can purchase at a reasonable price and it offers all the features that you need in an online product design tool, would you buy it? I certainly would and I am sure that there are hundreds if not thousands of companies worldwide that would also.

All I wanted to do was inform users that these type of software packages are being developed, they work and they ARE coming to market and offer an alternative to the annual pay as you go online design services.


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## digifacmp (Nov 13, 2007)

Technology is progressing so fast that the user cannot catch up. Even software developers cannot catch up and sometimes their software become out of date because new technologies have taken over.


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## Daniel Slatkin (Jun 25, 2008)

When it comes to self hosting this kind of system we did a lot of reaserch and found that when it comes to running a multi user network there are not many hosting providers willing to make the server side adjustments necessary to pull it off.


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## curiousity (Feb 15, 2009)

*Re: Those with DecoNetwork sites*



bluetooter said:


> So what! That is not what this is about. We are not discussing the viability of the software business and how to be a successful developer.
> 
> If a company offers a software package that you can purchase at a reasonable price and it offers all the features that you need in an online product design tool, would you buy it? I certainly would and I am sure that there are hundreds if not thousands of companies worldwide that would also.
> 
> All I wanted to do was inform users that these type of software packages are being developed, they work and they ARE coming to market and offer an alternative to the annual pay as you go online design services.


But we are talking about using a product with potentially 3 year old code though, right? (Since the software developer won't be able to afford to support it without reoccuring revenue.)

3 year old code that someone has probably figured out a hack to? Maybe? Having your site hijacked would cost much, much more than what you are saving.

And that is the benefit of the hosted solution. I don't have to worry as much about security. I can focus on my (future) business and sell tshirts.

There's different sides to it, but that is what would drive my decision.


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## bluetooter (Oct 3, 2008)

Who says the developer cannot support the code, that is absolutely ridiculous, that is a baseless assumption. Why, is everyone so immersed in the concept that independent software is evil and unsupported. That is absurd.

3 year old code? hacking into? security? I think you need to get a little realistic. Many businesses today have proprietary code, shopping carts, PHP data bases and tons of applications hosted on a variety of servers and they don't seem to have tremendous problems. We have our own applications that we purchased and use for our web site and we don't have any of those issues. We don't own any servers and we pay for hosted service. I have no problem purchasing an application that works and using it.

I am not suggesting that you become some IT guru. But you have to understand that there are going to be lots of new independent graphic design applications that will be showing up soon and some businesses will want them and some will not. This is not self-hosting, this is an application package that eventually anyone could purchase and use.

So if Adobe came out tomorrow with an online design tool that you could purchase and load onto the server of your choice, are you saying that you would never consider such an application?


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## Daniel Slatkin (Jun 25, 2008)

We are not just talking about an online design software. We are talking about a Piki/CafeePress/Zazzle style multi user affiliate system. Yes you would have no problem hosting a site with a design tool on your own system. What we are talking about is hosting hundreds to thousands of affiliate sites through your own POD Service, you will find that the requirements placed on this kind of system, are not practical to sell to the average printer, as a software package.

It requires extensive SQL, PHP, Java, Action Script, Html, SSL, Apache_mods, to be implemented at the server level, and like I said you will find very phew if any hosting providers willing to make theses changes to their server structure.


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## bluetooter (Oct 3, 2008)

No, we are not talking about creating a site like a piki. First of all Piki does not even work still, so that is a moot point. We are talking about an online design tool that is comprehensive, well designed, easy to use, understands our industry from a pricing structure point of view and can accomodate substores, not some kind of zazzle like portal.

But, I already looked into the server side and there are several companies that offer excellent hosted and dedicated server usage at reasonable rates $79 to $180 per year. Which have PHP, MySQL, Flex, Imagemajick and more preinstalled and ready to use.

I think you are making this out to be more than necessary.


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## Riderz Ready (Sep 18, 2008)

There you have it - there are two separate and distinct models. A Piki/Zazzle type solution versus an out of the box on-line shirt designer.

There are already a score of out of the box web based design solutions out there to chose from. Sure there will be some who attached some sort of sub store structure. Those will be a dime a dozen and a very tough market to compete. As with most new vertical markets 80% that pop in the first three years will be gone due to financial collapse, merged or acquired. 

The Piki/Zazzle/Portal concept is an entirely different solution that has significant requirements. Unfortunately Piki ran into some headaches including trying to develope a "migration" from 1.0 to 1.5. Anyone who has gone trhough a data conversion on any application will tell you it is the worst experience one can live through. Knowing that in the best of cases it is a disaster we will simply rebuild in 1.5 when the portal arrives.


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## bluetooter (Oct 3, 2008)

If we can acquire a high quality out of the box online design tool that offers DTG and screenprinting, that will be phase I of our web based business plan. Phase II will be offering some type of substore function. But high quality online design is our first objective.

Look at sites like customink, they have achieved $6 million in sales and they have no substore functions at all. As far as I'm concerned, if I can achieve anything at all like that, I will be very happy.


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## Riderz Ready (Sep 18, 2008)

bluetooter said:


> If we can acquire a high quality out of the box online design tool that offers DTG and screenprinting, that will be phase I of our web based business plan. Phase II will be offering some type of substore function. But high quality online design is our first objective.
> 
> Look at sites like customink, they have achieved $6 million in sales and they have no substore functions at all. As far as I'm concerned, if I can achieve anything at all like that, I will be very happy.


You seem to have the passion and drive to be successful and personally wish you the best. As I mentioned previously I have been involved in the software industry for decades. It is challenging and rewarding. One small bit of advice from experience. To be successful in software you can't look at what Customink is doing and you can't even look at what Piki is doing. Successful software ventures look beyond what is currently available and take a vision into reality. If you look at the most visible examples. Did WordPerfect blow the industry leader, Wordstar, out of the wate by offering a similar solution. Did then Microsoft blow the industry leader WordPerfect out of the water by offering something similar? Innovation equals success -


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## Daniel Slatkin (Jun 25, 2008)

Not to mention if Adobe came out with such a software the price would make you cringe, they would come out with a new version in six months making the old version obsolete and you would have to pay out for yet another adobe update. 

Secondly a designer that allows multiple sub-stores is exactly what piki is. It does work we have over 100 affiliates very happy with our system.

The problem comes you try to automate everything so it is simple for the end user. Ask these hosting providers that you mentioned if they give you access to your core server configuration files. You might find 1 in 100 that will allow this on their servers. This makes a stand alone Multi user software platform unprofitable to sell for the Apparel industry.

Thirdly I don't see anybody adequately creating an online designer that can handle the needs of a silk screener. There are to many variables that the average customer does not understand when it comes to silkscreen methods. In my opinion this is where piki started going wrong, when they decides it needed to do color separations, Halftone creation and digitizing for embroidery. POD is a digital world for digital capable print methods. 

I could go round and round with you on this point all day. Please believe me when I say it would be far easier from a business stand point to just sell the software and let the end user worry about installation server maintenance, bandwidth usage, site scaling, SSL securing etc.. We tried only 17 out of 50 beta testers where able to get their system set up and running on commercial hosting providers. This caused us to have to go back to the drawing board on our system, after months of research we came to the conclusion that the only solution was to go with a we host system. This was not an easy solution to come to it meant buying servers, getting a dedicated it person, etc.. the list goes on and on causing our launch date to be god knows when, causing us to have to test a whole new bunch of things. Causing me and the team to work 24/7 for the last six months. In that time alone their has been at least one new browser to come into popular use and one browser that got a major update causing more changes to need made to the code.

This will be my last post in this topic because I am tired of things getting deleted for self promotion when I am just trying to bring an informed point of view to the discussion. It will be weeks maybe months before we go live with our portal system. The myshirttool in my signature is not this system just something I am hosting for a friend, and told him I would help try to get him some interest and traffic!


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## Riderz Ready (Sep 18, 2008)

Daniel, I so agree with you regarding Piki taking a wrong turn with screening and embroidery. I do not understand the concept that an average person will go on-line and understand color separation, etc required for screeners. We forget that to this day the majority of people, over 25, are still overwhelmed by technology. Ebroidery and screening is simply too complicated to have a wide spread appeal to on-line designing. I am not sure this technology even fits from a marketing standpoint with most screeners.


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## bluetooter (Oct 3, 2008)

Both of you guys have missed the point and are completely off base. POD using screenprinting IS PROVEN and works perfectly. Obviously, you do not understand what other companies have accomplished (customink, uberprints, bluecotton, ossdesigner, shirtsoftware).

POD using only DTG works, but is too limited since the majority of customers really NEED screenprinting and its pricing. All the companies which started with DTG only (RSK, Piki/Deconetwork, tshirtsoftware, livedesigner, etc..) have been unable to transition.

The most successful online software solutions ARE ALL BASED using screenprinting, all of those missed the boat relative to DTG. There is no techno magic to an online designer dealing with screenprinting or DTG, even halftones are completely manageable. *The true new solution will be for a system to properly deal with both.*

New software solutions are always based on what has been done previously. Developers always look at what has been done and what needs to be done.

Anyway, if and when new software hits the market (which I estimate will be soon), I will be laughing, while you guys will be wallowing and still waiting for Piki to make some more promises.


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## Rodney (Nov 3, 2004)

> Obviously, you do not understand what other companies have accomplished (customink, uberprints, bluecotton, ossdesigner, shirtsoftware).


I'm pretty sure those companies are printing on demand using Direct to Garment printing. CustomInk does for sure.


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## Chrisatexpert (Jan 9, 2007)

Rodney said:


> I'm pretty sure those companies are printing on demand using Direct to Garment printing. CustomInk does for sure.


Rodney,

Just a quick chime in, my software recognizes both screenprinting (per color) and DTG (per location) pricing structures.

In agreement with Bluetooter, screenprinting is the most used print medium used amongst my store owners but one thing I have found that is a consistent ingredient in my more successfull store owners "recipe of success" is the ability to sell one off's through DTG. You really open the door for spontaneous purchases.

So i would agree that a piece of software that calculates per location pricing is great, but a per color pricing structure is where the majority of your orders will come from. At least from what I have seen.

Chris


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## Rodney (Nov 3, 2004)

Chrisatexpert said:


> Rodney,
> 
> Just a quick chime in, my software recognizes both screenprinting (per color) and DTG (per location) pricing structures.
> 
> ...


I wasn't addressing the pricing structure at all  Just the specific part of the post I quoted about those companies doing screen printing *on demand*, which isn't the case.


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## Brian-R (Apr 21, 2008)

On-line Jerseys said:


> There are already a score of out of the box web based design solutions out there to chose from.


Can you give me some examples of the "out of the box design solutions." I am unhappy with the service that I am getting from my design tool providers and am going to make a change when my fees are due again so I am looking at options right now.

Brian


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## Riderz Ready (Sep 18, 2008)

bluetooter said:


> Both of you guys have missed the point and are completely off base. POD using screenprinting IS PROVEN and works perfectly. Obviously, you do not understand what other companies have accomplished (customink, uberprints, bluecotton, ossdesigner, shirtsoftware).
> 
> POD using only DTG works, but is too limited since the majority of customers really NEED screenprinting and its pricing. All the companies which started with DTG only (RSK, Piki/Deconetwork, tshirtsoftware, livedesigner, etc..) have been unable to transition.
> 
> ...


You have really lost any credibility you had. You truly think someone orders a one off shirt on any of the large portals and a screen print is made? Take two minutes, go to their sites and they themselves will expalin they use DTG or sublimation. Do you just make stuff up to carry on with your agenda against Piki? 

Of course the majority of the overall market is still screened as that is the only way to this date to provide very large orders at a very cheap price. Do you really believe a person who wants 1000 shirts is going to go on-line and design it, get no proofs and have the order appear on their doorstep? Or would they be much more likely to call their shop and work with a person 1 on 1. 

Of course OSS Desinger has more screen printers then other types of printing. That is how that system was designed. If I was a screen printer I would have seriously considered staying with that solution. Yet if you want to try to tell me that an average person on the streets that wants a few custom shirts can go to an on-line design tool and separate colors you have no clue about the market. Never the less what screen printer is going to print 3 shirts all with different lettering? 

You really need to do some research so your comments are at least loosely based on facts.


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## Riderz Ready (Sep 18, 2008)

Brian-R said:


> Can you give me some examples of the "out of the box design solutions." I am unhappy with the service that I am getting from my design tool providers and am going to make a change when my fees are due again so I am looking at options right now.
> 
> Brian


You can read through these forums and you will find them. Heck even got spammed in my private mailbox on this forum for yet another on-line design studio just this week. The vast majority of them are all the same. They have a feature here and there that are different but all in all - they are clones of each other.


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## Rodney (Nov 3, 2004)

> Heck even got spammed in my private mailbox on this forum for yet another on-line design studio just this week


Just to be clear, that spam didn't come from or wasn't endorsed by T-ShirtForums. The spammer was also removed as soon as it was reported.



> Can you give me some examples of the "out of the box design solutions."


Lots have been mentioned here: online tshirt designer related topics at T-Shirt Forums


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## bluetooter (Oct 3, 2008)

On-line Jerseys said:


> You have really lost any credibility you had. You truly think someone orders a one off shirt on any of the large portals and a screen print is made? Take two minutes, go to their sites and they themselves will expalin they use DTG or sublimation. Do you just make stuff up to carry on with your agenda against Piki?
> 
> Of course the majority of the overall market is still screened as that is the only way to this date to provide very large orders at a very cheap price. Do you really believe a person who wants 1000 shirts is going to go on-line and design it, get no proofs and have the order appear on their doorstep? Or would they be much more likely to call their shop and work with a person 1 on 1.
> 
> ...


Mark, just to be clear, my credibility is intact and I am not making any of this up and I could care less about Piki. Get over it! There is software that is in development that does what I said, and it is coming. Of course no printer would screenprint a one off, BUT you missed the point. What I said is that, "*The true new solution will be for a system to properly deal with both."*

*emphasis on PROPERLY DEAL WITH BOTH!*

That means that since you are dealing with an intelligent processing system, it is not difficult for a properly configured system to deal with how to price out an order - ANY ORDER. I have already seen online software that can analyze an image for numbers of colors and can easily convert a multi-color image to grayscale. That means that the difference between DTG which uses unlimited colors and screenprinting which counts colors can be calculated. If the difference can be calculated, then it can be priced as to what the best pricing method should be within a formula.

And yes, I am sure there are many groups that would easily go online to a design tool, upload their design or create a design and then place an order for hundreds, if not thousands of shirts. As long as the pricing is right, why not?

Just ask customink or uberprints or Chris at OSSDESIGNER, I am sure they would be happy to fill you in on order quantities and the ability to offer halftones and separations from an online design tool. Again, there is no magic to this process. And by the way, noone is asking Joe the Customer to do separations, that is your job.


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## pgconversion (Apr 24, 2009)

Bluetooter recommended this new discovery, which should be a good information for us. And we can understand its new development and a variety of new applications 

Once we have a good and full-featured web site, and then we will be able to concentrate on the marketing. Actually,there is nothing wrong with this idea, but we should be able to think more than that.

customink's success is not only because he has a good web site, but also he has enough promotion, good products, attractive prices, as well as services. 

I think his operating costs may be not low for web site's functionality is not in one step but customized according to the development of improved demand, 

It should be unique. Therefore, it is impossible to compare by the surface and you can not see what the operation system is behind the surface. 

web site is only one part of e-commerce and do not need to pursuit its function overly.It can be used and it is convenient,which is fairly enough. And you can continuously improve it in the operations on the line and you can not step on the place,.As long as you have development, web site functions will be improved on.Unless you do not have the development for several years and it always keep the same, then your business may also be closed down. 

Attention also needs to be placed on the promotion, products and services. These will need costs, but mainly how much they cost in the web site should be based on your budget. 

$ 3000 ~ $ 7,000 is much or little, which is really had to say. If you have enough budget, you should choose a good web site of course. 

If I had $ 7000, a web site is $ 2000, and his features are able to meet the requirements. If there is another web site is $ 5000 with good features, I would rather choose the first one because I need to have sufficient funds to spend on the promotion and the other work.


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