# best beginner water based ink?



## Rory (Dec 3, 2007)

what would be the best beginner water based ink? i know they are hard to use but are there any that are easier to use than others or all about the same or even what are the best ones to use and where to get them


----------



## splathead (Dec 4, 2005)

It depends on what equipment you have. Folks here swear by Matsui ink, but Matsui recommends curing by a conveyor dryer.

Several ink manufacturers, like Union, make air cured ink but they still recommend heat setting when possible.

I would do a search here on water based ink and Matsui.


----------



## brent (Nov 3, 2006)

Speedball is a decent ink for beginners. I think matsui makes fantastic waterbased inks but you'll need at least a flash cure unit for curing those. Union aerotex is also a good line of inks. 
Union and speedball will clog in screens way easier than Matsui, so they're not so great for multiple color prints, but if you're just doing one color prints, they would be fine. 
White ink will be one of your biggest headaches. Matsui makes the only white ink that I have ever liked.


----------



## adawg2252 (Dec 12, 2007)

I've used Spectrachem waterbased inks as well as speedball and the spectrachem is definitly a step ahead of speedball. The colors are much brighter. Obviously you have to deal with the drying up of the ink, but I've done 3 and 4 color jobs (50-60 shirts) and had no problem with clogging.

Everyone has there own opinion and the easiest way is to get a few (or sample packs, smallest sizes, etc.) and try them. See what you like working with better, and what brands have the color selections, specialties, etc. that you want.

Good luck!


----------



## Rory (Dec 3, 2007)

i only have a heat gun to dry so i think i might try the union ink


----------



## jlcanterbury (Jul 26, 2007)

speedball inks are somewhat lower in quality than many alternatives... they may be easier to work with than some but the sacrafice in quality may not be worth it.

Matsui's new 301 series is great to work with... I have never had a clogged screen, even after 30 minutes of no work on a 200 mesh... they cure a lot like plastisol, just takes a bit longer. I would recommend them for their quality and ease of use.


----------



## Rory (Dec 3, 2007)

> Matsui's new 301 series is great to work with... I have never had a clogged screen, even after 30 minutes of no work on a 200 mesh... they cure a lot like plastisol, just takes a bit longer. I would recommend them for their quality and ease of use.


i am going to try those thanks


----------



## neato (Mar 21, 2006)

Just be ready for the smell! 

That's the only thing I don't like about Matsui. They are really stinky. I always have a headache after using them.


----------



## brent (Nov 3, 2006)

I don't think Matsui smells that bad, at least not at a normal distance. If I open a jar and take a whiff, that does stink.

Versatex is a pretty good waterbased ink but it smells like cat pee.


----------



## neato (Mar 21, 2006)

Really? The colors are terrible, especially when doing long runs through the dryer. 

But at least they don't smell like cat pee. lol.


----------



## brent (Nov 3, 2006)

which colors are terrible? versatex? I really have only used them a little bit, before I got into matsui.


----------



## neato (Mar 21, 2006)

No Matsui.

Are we using the same ink? lol

Matsui 301 transparent colors have quite a strong odor.


----------



## brent (Nov 3, 2006)

Ohhhhhhhhh, i thought you meant the colors as in how they appear, not smell. Yeah they're stinky. Their discharge is cool stuff but it smells like i'm cooking a big pot of rubber boots when I use it.


----------



## marlo45 (Oct 4, 2007)

jlcanterbury said:


> Matsui's new 301 series is great to work with... I have never had a clogged screen, even after 30 minutes of no work on a 200 mesh...


Wow, i think i need to get a sample of these! I feared water based inks for the clogging issues because i'm a beginner and will no doubt print a lot slower than the veterans.

I definitely wont be pausing for more than 30 minutes at any time (unless i'm distracted), so i believe that i will have to give this a shot. 

Do you know how it compares to Union's line of wb inks?

Thanks for your input


----------



## marlo45 (Oct 4, 2007)

Hey Phillip,

You told me you used Union's wb inks, right? What's the longest you have ever gone between prints without clogging? If you have had clogging issues, what are the simple dos and don'ts? 

I'm trying to decide on going with Union or Matsui. I know the best way to decide is to get samples, but i would also like to know what to expect even with samples so i don't waste any time/effort when evaluating.


----------



## neato (Mar 21, 2006)

Oh no! I only use Matsui for Waterbased. I use some Union plastisol though. 

Matsui is definitely nicer than Unions waterbased inks. Union does (or used to) make a fairly decent WB ink under the Pavonine name, but it'll dry in the screen a lot faster than Matsui, and it tends to have more of a hand to it.


----------



## marlo45 (Oct 4, 2007)

neato said:


> Oh no! I only use Matsui for Waterbased. I use some Union plastisol though.
> 
> Matsui is definitely nicer than Unions waterbased inks. Union does (or used to) make a fairly decent WB ink under the Pavonine name, but it'll dry in the screen a lot faster than Matsui, and it tends to have more of a hand to it.


Oops, don't know where i got that idea. So, maybe i'll try to get some Matsui samples first. 

As for the clogging issue, what is the longest "non-use time" you have went between prints before you get any sort of clogging?


----------



## neato (Mar 21, 2006)

Honestly, I don't think I've ever had any clogging. The white ink gets a little thick when you're doing a long run, but it hasn't clogged yet.

I left my press set up for 2 hours one day and didn't have any issues when I started printing again.

BTW, Screen Printing Equipment, Supplies, Service & Support - Westix Online is the best place to buy the stuff. Dennis and Matt know a lot about the Matsui line. Very nice guys.


----------



## marlo45 (Oct 4, 2007)

neato said:


> Honestly, I don't think I've ever had any clogging. The white ink gets a little thick when you're doing a long run, but it hasn't clogged yet.
> 
> I left my press set up for 2 hours one day and didn't have any issues when I started printing again.
> 
> BTW, Screen Printing Equipment, Supplies, Service & Support - Westix Online is the best place to buy the stuff. Dennis and Matt know a lot about the Matsui line. Very nice guys.


Thanks Phillip!

You're a great help and, as mentioned in my PM, an inspiration to us trying to get quality prints.

Keep up the good work.


----------



## brent (Nov 3, 2006)

Has anyone that has been using Matsui had success with large runs using really opaque inks? Using the white 301 as a mix with pigments for 3 colors in a 4 color run didn't work out at all for me. they dried out. the fourth color was the high opacity blue and it behaved well.


----------



## neato (Mar 21, 2006)

Brent, you have to give the screen a mist of water once in a while to keep the inks flowing smoothly.

Did you have to p/f/p each color? Did you have any trouble with the screens sticking and lifting the shirts?


----------



## brent (Nov 3, 2006)

neato said:


> Brent, you have to give the screen a mist of water once in a while to keep the inks flowing smoothly.
> 
> Did you have to p/f/p each color? Did you have any trouble with the screens sticking and lifting the shirts?


I was trying to register a tricky 4 color print, and after a half hour or 45 minutes or messing with it, the ink had stiffened beyond repair, as it would sit for up to ten minutes as I messed around with screens 3&4. I've used the occasional spray of water but it can only do so much. Matt at Westix and I decided that I can't do what I'm trying to do, basically using the matsui 301 white as 3 out of 4 colors in a print. I plan to discharge it.

and I have had trouble with sticking/lifting before. Any solutions for that?


----------



## neato (Mar 21, 2006)

The only solution I've come up with is better flashing. I think a forced air flash would be a great thing for a water based printer. Also, proper cooling after the flash. Use all four print stations and set up a fan on on of them. 

Or, wait until Matsui releases the new underbase white and print the RC colors right on top, no clear top coat needed!


----------



## brent (Nov 3, 2006)

One of the reasons I want to get into multi color discharge is because of the soft hand and fast production rate as I can print wet on wet with it. I know it's not the best solution for everything.

I just got a hix 6/6 press so I'm hoping that in a real print run there will be plenty of time for thicker/opaque inks to cool down and not stick.


----------



## staned (Feb 25, 2007)

ok here's the scoop on international coatings gen4 water base inks. they will be running them at iss long beach on a auto and hope to ship out a few weeks after that. good things take time and the q/c at i/c is very tough. they a have a large lab and a full m&r equipped print shop. stan


----------



## neato (Mar 21, 2006)

Good news! I can't wait to try them.


----------



## ChipShank (May 6, 2007)

I've had only limited experience with water based inks & only on small runs, so we have used the same emulsion that we use for standard plastisol printing.....Is there an emulsion that you guys would recommend for doing more extensive WB printing?

(I'll do a search too...but I just thought I would ask)


Don


----------



## brent (Nov 3, 2006)

I use Ulano QT discharge (I only do waterbased printing, including discharge)
Richard Greaves recommended this emulsion. It works very well. 
I've never used plastisol except for a very small amount of experimenting with it to see how I liked it (didn't like it), but from what I understand you can't use a plastisol emulsion with WB inks because the WB inks will eat away at it.
Ulano makes several emulsions that are good for WB.


----------



## neato (Mar 21, 2006)

I use Saati Textil PV and post expose. I've done runs up to 200 shirts with WB and discharge with no problems.


----------



## brent (Nov 3, 2006)

What percentage of your normal burn do you post burn for? I post burn for 30 to 60 seconds if I'm keeping the screens indefinitely like I do for a clothing line.


----------



## neato (Mar 21, 2006)

I usually just throw them back on for 5-10 minutes while I'm doing something else.

Or, if it's sunny out, I just set them outside while they dry. The sun does the work.


----------



## brent (Nov 3, 2006)

5-10 minutes seems like a lot! What is your normal burn time?
Mine is about 5 minutes and if I post burn it's only for a half minute to a minute and the screens hold up very well.


----------



## ChipShank (May 6, 2007)

Thanks guys, that's very helpful!
I was wondering about the whole post/cure-post/expose idea. At the old sign shop I worked at, we used to do that when we knew that a run was going either really long or the screen were going to be saved for a while. We did the same thing, put it in the sun (for smaller screens) or throw the light back on it for a few minutes.

1 more question for you guys....What mesh counts would you typically use for water based ink. Say for like white/light under base on dark & for the subsequent spot colors over the top?
The only water based inks I've used (Union I believe) were much thinner/higher viscosity than their plastisol counterparts....so would it be correct to assume that you might be using higher mesh counts for most colors?

Don


----------



## neato (Mar 21, 2006)

brent said:


> 5-10 minutes seems like a lot! What is your normal burn time?
> Mine is about 5 minutes and if I post burn it's only for a half minute to a minute and the screens hold up very well.


It probably is a lot, but it really doesn't matter.  

I just put them on the unit for a couple minutes while I do other stuff. It won't hurt the screen to put it on too long, they can only harden so much.

My burn time is 1:20 - 2:30 depending on mesh count.


----------

