# Our journey with Epson/Sawgrass/Johnsons Plastic



## PGSSStu (Sep 22, 2015)

*Our journey with Epson/Sawgrass/Johnson Plastics*

We have been in the Dye Sublimation business since the beginning of 2006. We have learned a lot but obviously not all and this discussion tells why. Last year in late November we purchased a demo Epson SCT-3000 from the Kyle, the manager of Johnson Plastics in Phoenix Arizona. Since we have been doing business with Kyle buying almost exclusively from him for a number of years, we thought we were in a mutual trust relationship.

We went to Johnson’s Plastic to talk with Kyle about getting some Sawgrass ink for the extra Ricoh 7000 that we have never put in service. We have that available really reasonable if you need one! We have had five Ricoh’s and the print head in the smaller version of the 7000 just self destructed or some say Sawgrass ink killed it. Ricoh tech support confirmed the fact that the printer had died. Three other 7000’s were killed already. Sawgrass ink costs $700.00 for the 7000 so we were reticent. We had done everything by the book, left them on 24 hours a day, installed a humidifier, everything including almost daily nozzle checks. 

Kyle explained that he had this demo Epson 24 inch printer that was less than a year old and that he would make us a great deal on it and that the Sawgrass ink was cheaper on the larger format printers and on and on. He also informed us that they had ink in the printer over the expiration date for Sawgrass ink. Because of that you couldn’t get a clear nozzle check. He assured us that that would go away after we ran the head cleaning cycle enough times and got all the old ink that was in it, out. We had no experience with large format printers but I have always wanted one and Kyle and I have talked about that quite a few times. Besides seeing Kyle in the shop when we pickup things we bought from Johnson Plastics we attend 6 or 7 trade shows and JP is there at 5 or 6 of them.

The Epson SCT-3000 was repackaged and we picked it up. It was just like buying a new printer and my humble understanding was that we would get a year’s warranty from Epson as the first retail / business purchaser and I assumed that of Sawgrass as well. We were not informed or told otherwise and the receipt was marked clearly that it was a demo unit. I didn’t worry about any of that because we had a long standing relationship with Johnson Plastics. 

With replacing the ink and endless cleanings a clear/clean nozzle check was rare and we were repeatedly told by Kyle when I called many times that everything would be fine after we got the old ink he had in it, out (through head cleanings). Whilst I had no experience with large printers I was starting to become dubious and talked to a Sawgrass rep that the ISS show in Long Beach. He assured me that his assistant would get back to us and take care of the problem. Never happened and with the amount of stuff we picked up, I had misplaced his card. Then at the ARA show in Las Vegas I talked with Kyle in front of his boss who instructed him to get a hold of Sawgrass as we had a bad print head. Okay, a store manager doesn’t know this and he knows that the unit would barely produce a clear nozzle check? And remember that the disposable ink cartridge is $79.00 at JP. Sawgrass said ink had been in the printer for over a year and they were not notified timely and denied everything! Sorry folks, I gave your representative my business card and I notified your agents, Johnson Plastics weekly of issues. YOU WERE NOTOFIED TIMELY.

I contacted Epson who stepped up and replaced the print head. It actually took two or three as there were problems. I figured I was good to go for a year at least. Then I found out that Sawgrass had cleaning cartridges, ordered them with new ink. I thought that if I ran the cleaning cartridges (put them in, cleaned until all traces of ink disappear) when we had times at a show or an emergency trip out of state because we have relatives over 90, that we would be covered. That should extend the printer’s life. At the WPPI show in Las Vegas, I discussed the printer with Epson personnel where we found the first canvas print printer and we bought one. The Epson representative told me that the printer will be dead in six or so months with that ink in it. I thought that was just rotten eggs since I didn’t buy theirs. I never dreamed it could happen! How? I had cleaning cartridges, humidity control, I was covered, right?

Well two days ago (just about six months), I found out that the Epson representative was telling it straight. All of a sudden, about a week and a half ago we are starting to take excessive cleanings (sound familiar?), and now it spits out a blurb of red or black ink. Yes we had put the cleaning cartridges in when we made the trip to Wisconsin for the family emergency. Yes we did run cleanings until all signs of ink disappeared in the nozzle checks. Did this one other time also, but we were only gone to two back to back shows for six days. Six days and you have a dead printer with this ink from what I have found, but again talk is cheap on the internet.

So I called Epson. They said since I was using non Epson ink, my warranty only covered one incident and that they would have the repair company call. The cost of repair is $500.00 minimum to well over $3,000.00. Because the prints show blotches of ink, the company rep thinks that pumps and the print head will have to be installed. They charge $100.00 for the service call and $175.00 an hour and if they come out, the estimate on site will most likely be $350.00 or thereabouts. We haven’t owned this printer for even a year and now after this time the repair cost and the retail of the SCT-3000 exceeds the cost of the Epson F6070 which is a 44 inch Epson dye sublimation printer designed and developed for sublimation that has excellent reviews by everyone. And you can buy a 2nd and I believe a 3rd year warranty if you want. The 2nd year warranty is around $1,800.00 so they must be covering a print head or something.

I called Kyle at Johnson Plastics and asked if they could help. He said, you already got a repair from Epson you shouldn’t had gotten, and said he would check. He called back and said no help is available. I like the output from the SCT-3000 that we get. It is really good. My thoughts are, we are a small shop and if this printer died this quickly from the ink therein, how fast would it die if we were using it three to five hours a day? Three months, two? I don’t know and we use it less than an hour a day, BTW. I also am under consternation over the “You already got a repair you shouldn’t have comment. Did they sell us a completely dead printer and expect us the put $3000 into it to even use it. I don’t know, but that comment bothers me and you will have to make up your own mind about that.

So this is our journey to this point. I hope this helps someone! Thanks!


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## ShirlandDesign (Nov 29, 2009)

*Re: Our journey with Epson/Sawgrass/Johnson Plastics*

You've got me really curious. We have a small Ricoh and have run Sublijet day in and day out for 4 or 5 years without a hitch. 

I've bought 2 demo models (not industry related) and both were junk. 

So if I'm reading all this right, use up the ink soon or suffer the consequences?

Is the day in and out what makes the ink workable?


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## PGSSStu (Sep 22, 2015)

*Re: Our journey with Epson/Sawgrass/Johnson Plastics*

There was a question about our Humidifier. In Arizona we can get down to 7 - 9% humidity, quite dry and ink of course dries very quickly. That is why we have a humidifier! Stu


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## PGSSStu (Sep 22, 2015)

*Re: Our journey with Epson/Sawgrass/Johnson Plastics*



ShirlandDesign said:


> You've got me really curious. We have a small Ricoh and have run Sublijet day in and day out for 4 or 5 years without a hitch.
> 
> I've bought 2 demo models (not industry related) and both were junk.
> 
> ...


Okay we haven't gotten a printer to last two years let alone five. Good for you!


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## skdave (Apr 11, 2008)

Wow ! Wow !


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## jpkevin (Oct 22, 2007)

Hi Stu, 

I am very sorry that you feel this way, however I would like to reply with Johnson Plastics side. When you purchased the printer, you were told that it was a demo printer with no remaining warranty. That is why it was sold to you at a very reduced price. At that time you also purchased a new set of ink because Kyle told you to change out the ink immediately. We also discounted the new ink, and threw in a roll of paper and a ink tank to help you change out the ink. At the time of purchase the printer had a perfect nozzle check. You continued to use the old ink because you didn't want to throw it out. You ended up with Epson replacing your print head out of warranty.

Again, I am sorry you feel this way.

Please feel free to contact me at any time. My cell is 651-731-3300

Kevin Lumberg
Johnson Plastics


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## ParrotPrinting (Feb 23, 2015)

So much for my future dealings with Johnson Plastics


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## smacity (Jun 24, 2012)

Hmm cant say i agree with the vendor on this one. They should not sell a demo without backing it up with a warranty or it should be labled used.
Just my 2 cents

Sent from my SM-N910P using T-Shirt Forums


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## Comicsans (Nov 7, 2012)

Don't use sawgrass inks. They will clog and kill your printhead no matter what. 

Use Jteck or Inktec. Other people recomend Cobra inks, but I do not have experience with them.

Sawgrass is a good way to lose money.


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## PGSSStu (Sep 22, 2015)

*Re: Our journey with Epson/Sawgrass/Johnson Plastics*

*My response to Johnson Plastics’ fictional fabrication: (bold type is JP’s)*

*I am very sorry that you feel this way, however I would like to reply with Johnson Plastics side.* I wrote this as unbiased as possible, it is simply what happened in this journey. I wrote this for people to read and make up their own mind. You have no clue as to how I feel, sir.

*When you purchased the printer, you were told that it was a demo printer with no remaining warranty. That is why it was sold to you at a very reduced price*. As I stated above the receipt is clearly marked DEMO and we were not told what you say. I double checked with my wife and she doesn’t remember any discussion of warranty. After all we thought we were dealing with business friends. And quite frankly you were not there. And you made sure there was no remaining warranty with Sawgrass by telling us (thru your employee) to simply keep head cleaning it for ~ 2 months and it would be okay whilst the Sawgrass warranty slipped away. We didn’t know, you are the experts, you sold us the printer, we followed your instructions and then walla, no warranty due to time. There was one whilst the printer had a dead head! Once the year’s warranty time with Sawgrass was over, you instructed your employee to check with Sawgrass. Of course nothing then, it now had been a year since JP put Sawgrass Ink in it. And you are telling me different? You didn’t know the print head was dead? Most interesting! Again this is all part and parcel of the journey isn’t it?

*At that time you also purchased a new set of ink because Kyle told you to change out the ink immediately.* Really now, the ink in it was badly outdated. I changed it the very same day we picked up the SCT-3000 from Johnson Plastics and was totally amazed at the expiration dates on the ink. It was old!
*We also discounted the new ink*,  Yes because the new ink you sold us expired very soon. It had been sitting around for some time at JP. That is why it was discounted, or the truth why!
*and threw in a roll of paper and a ink tank to help you change out the ink.* No, that’s not true, I asked for a roll of paper and your employee said yes.
*At the time of purchase the printer had a perfect nozzle check. *Really? Right now if I go out and run enough head cleanings on the SCT-3000 I can get a perfect nozzle check but that doesn’t mean that anything that follows that is good. When the Tech from Epson came to replace the head, he cleaned it 6 or 7 times to show me that he could get a clean nozzle check. And yes, the ink discard box was trashed during the head replacement and a new one was almost filled up.
*You continued to use the old ink because you didn't want to throw it out. You ended up with Epson replacing your print head out of warranty.* As I clearly stated above we replaced the ink the same day we picked the SCT-3000 up from Johnson’s Plastic. Why would you lie about this? What are you really saying? When I called Epson the very first time, I clearly stated we had a Demo printer and the date we bought it. It would still be in warranty for us if the Sawgrass Ink was not in it per Epson just a few days ago. With the non Epson ink in the printer, Epson stated that you only get one warranty incidence. I just recently talked to Epson as mentioned above. Do you feel that misstating something that important will influence the forum readers? I think these people are pretty savvy at what they do, and will understand your intentions, obviously you feel otherwise as I see it. 

*Again, I am sorry you feel this way.* As I stated above, you have no clue how I feel!


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## ParrotPrinting (Feb 23, 2015)

Thank You for the info.....as I stated above this influences my future decisions about Johnson Plastics


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## ParrotPrinting (Feb 23, 2015)

Hello Everyone......surprise, surprise, Johnson Plastics just called me about my response to the thread starter of this post. After hearing what they had to say I have to switch my opinion about JP. Without saying anything bad about PGSSSTu I have to agree with JP in that they did everything that could have been expected of them in this particular situation.

The ONE thing this tells me is that businesses pay attention to this forum.

There is more to this story than is posted here and I feel that JP did what they could to help this guy.

Sorry I jumped the gun with my opinion.


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## PGSSStu (Sep 22, 2015)

*Re: Our journey with Epson/Sawgrass/Johnson Plastics*

Well that's fine. There is only one problem as I see it and having been through this journey, the final thing that I will say is this: I wrote what happened in the journey as best I could as unbiased as I could so that you, the readers could see, understand and experience through us, what happened. I responded to JP because they have fiction in their rebuttal and I still feel that the fiction was wrong, misstated and incomplete. So I have put everything that I can down in writing on this forum into telling what happened as I experienced it and anything else would simply not be true. So it is up to you, the forum members, the readers to learn and understand so that my experience is of value to you. Let me make one final comment, if I misstated or incorrectly said anything, please send me an email and if I can agree, I will make a public apology. there is nothing that I know of at this point that I didn't write down! Good luck, God speed!


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## PGSSStu (Sep 22, 2015)

*Re: Our journey with Epson/Sawgrass/Johnson Plastics*

Two thoughts. 

One: When we bought our second set of ink, it was not from JP, it was from another very good reseller. The 1st set of ink for the SCT-3000 from JP was discounted by JP because the ink's expiration dates were so close. We also bought a complete set of cleaning cartridges from the new vendor at the same time. Whilst I kind of explained that, I wanted that to be clear and we used them three times, once when we got the complete order, and twice when we were away for an extended time - we left them in during that time. 

Two: I am attaching a picture showing my pile of sublimation printers simply as documentation. We have been through what i have said.


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## splathead (Dec 4, 2005)

: Duplicate posts merged into one :​


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## PGSSStu (Sep 22, 2015)

2nd try at uploading a picture


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## PGSSStu (Sep 22, 2015)

Found my notes from JP sales discussion: Since it was a used printer that was outdated, i.e., there was a replacement here in JP or coming to JP, they would price it the range of the Ricoh printers and ink whilst still $700.00 for the cartridges (at the time, the large Ricoh 7000 cartridges were ~$700.00 for a set) was cheaper because there was more ink in the Sawgrass Epson SCT-3000 cartridges than in the Ricoh cartridges so we would save that difference in value for each set of ink we purchased! Yes we were very well aware we were purchasing a Demo printer and the receipt clearly stated Demo.

Just for reference, the following is a set of emails to/from JP around 1/24/2015. This is just to document that we were concerned about the cleaning aspect and were discussing it with JP.

FROM JP:

I was using the “flush” as a more general term. You are correct there is no actual flushing option on the printer.

I believe if you go to the Epson Printing Preferences under the Advanced tab and check Banner it allows an option of Save Roll Paper. The downside is that I think it cuts right at the edge of your print.

Thanks,
JP


From: Me
To: JP
Subject: RE: Our Epson T3000

Dear JP

Thanks. I’ll just keep cleaning the printer. There is “no flush” in the Epson or Sawgrass menus – I just went and checked!

Somewhere, somehow there is an option to have the printer cut paper shortly after the last image is printed. So I had a 60x24 size on the prior configuration and if I printed 5 inches, the printer would cut the paper ½ inch past that for a paper print size of 5.5 inches. The Sawgrass Tech gave me that info. He, nor I thought of resetting default values. Thanks for just stating the obvious.

I thought I had set the option to have the T3000 cut paper right after finishing printing in the save paper option but that isn’t working that way.

See you in Long Beach!

Our signature


From:JP
Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2015 12:26 PM
To: Me
Subject: RE: Our Epson T3000

It takes about 10-11% of the 350ml cart to get through to the new ink.

What do you mean get it to stop printing when there is nothing to print?

If you are using the Powerdriver you would set the paper sizes in there. If you have a bunch you aren’t using you can “Restore Defaults” and it should clear out all of your paper sizes. If that doesn’t work you may need to reload the Powerdriver.

If you leave it on it goes into Power saving mode. It’s your choice though.

Thanks,
JP

From: Me
Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2015 11:47 AM
To: JP
Subject: RE: Our Epson T3000

I have done many cleanings that take 10 minutes or so. The ink is down noticeably in the Epson display of ink left. 

1.	Is the flush in the Sawgrass stuff or where?
2.	Also, how does one have the printer stop printing when there is nothing to print. The 1st Sawgrass employee told me to set something and I did and then that all was lost when I had to format and reload. In the Epson menu I set save paper but that doesn’t seem to do anything. I am basically afraid to set new sizes because there are just a few entries left to the Sawgrass crapola and then one cannot enter a new size – found that out already. There is no way to delete from the wonderful Sawgrass inept programming so I have sizes they put in that do not and will never apply to our printer.
3.	Do I still need to do a flush? I’ll do it in a hear(t) beat.
4.	Should I leave it on? Leaving the Ricoh on is what killed it. The electronics have a life span and we exceeded the useful life of the electronics. That’s why computers should never be left on when they are not being used. Transistors, capacitors, IC’s all have a life that is defined in length of time electricity flows through them.
5.	If it sleeps, I would prefer to shut it off and turn it on and off as necessary. I want this wonderful instrument to be with us for a long time.

Yes, this is a most wonderful printer when the Sawgrass ink, the dirtiest ink I have used hasn’t clogged it up!

Kindest regards

Our signatures


From: JP
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2015 7:28 PM
To: Me
Subject: RE: Our Epson T3000

Did you ever flush through to the new ink like we discussed? 

Yes you can leave it on. It goes into a sleep mode. This printer doesn't do automatic cleaning cycles. I would recommend doing a nozzle check at least twice a week if you aren't running prints.

JP Signature

-----Original Message----- 
From: Me
Received: Monday, 12 Jan 2015, 4:23PM
To: JP
Subject: Our Epson T3000

JP

We surely like this printer. One concern is that it cannot print 50” of print and not the entire 24” either without having to clean the heads in the printer. Surely seems like this ink is really quite dirty. Whilst the previous printer was go days and sometimes 50 sheets or more, It seems like this printer always needs a cleaning cycle. Any thoughts? At this rate it seems like 20% of the ink goes into cleaning and not on paper.

A question, are we supposed to leave this printer on all the time? Does it have a cleaning cycle that it runs after so long? I.e., how often do we need to run the printer to make sure it is alright? We are still re printing all our samples because this printer prints so much better! We are just about done.

Thanks

Our Signatures

This was edited to remove email addresses and web sites per stated request. I apologize as I was just documenting that we did what we said we did and that JP did what we said. The reference to JP is Johnson's Plastic and Me or Us is PGSSStu emails and websites. Again I didn't understand that such is not allowed in the forum. I am sorry and certainly didn't want to offend anyone!


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## ParrotPrinting (Feb 23, 2015)

there is one thing that you fail to mention and I obviously don't know if this is true because I live in another state and that is that your shop is in a garage in Arizona. There is NO humidity in that situation so you can't really expect a printer to function entirely properly in that situation. Did you use a humidifier and if so did you run it full time. As dry as it is out there that will be a problem. Also according to the gentleman I spoke with at JP you got this printer at a $2000.00 discount because it was a demo. Is this true? If so then you really can't blame them after they were honest enough and discounted this printer enough mainly to help you out. You probably should have declined to purchase this printer after it had been set up in there showroom for so long. and then you even got a free printhead when they didn't really have to do this. maybe you should chalk this up to a learning experience (albeit an expensive one) and take responsibility for your decision to buy this in the first place.


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## PGSSStu (Sep 22, 2015)

Quite correct, well almost. We have a 2600 square foot separate shop with heat and coolers and we have a ~1800 square foot garage which is heated and has a whole house humidifier in it. The humidifier is rated for a 2,400 or 2,600 square foot house and we keep the humidity at 45 - 50. During the day the temperature runs around 82 degrees and when it is really hot here, we simply open the door to the house and let the house central air system cool it to keep it around 82 or lower. We have several heaters to address the winter but that is just a couple of days a year that is gets that cold that heat is necessary. In the house, last year we did not even use the furnaces. And we typically turn the A/C on in the home 4 to 6 weeks after our neighbors do. Quite frankly we have an ICF house, that is Insulated Concrete Forms and the R-factor of the walls exceeds 60 so rarely does the garage get hot, per say. The ceiling insulation in the house exceeds an R factor of 90. ICF homes rarely spike in temperatures (we have owned two) and do not react to extremes. That is why we built it. I designed it and made the blueprints for it and I was the General Contractor. And if it does get too hot, we A/C it and that sir, works quite well. We also have a fan to assist when it gets over 115 outside as that seems to be the point that the garage heats a little. We turn the fan on to assist air movement. That takes only a short time to change the temperature and we are back to out 80 to 85 range. The garage doors are insulated to the maximum and the ceiling has full insulation with a vapor barrier and the roof plywood has an aluminum covering that reflects heat. This is all part and parcel of our plan of reducing out overall energy costs. Whilst to the novice this may seem extreme, our energy bill for 4000+ square feet (not counting the garage) is less than our neighbors which is 1900 square feet in size. We have been running a shop out of the garage since 2005. I realize this isn't perfect and we have purchased and will install a 3 ton AC and Heat Pump in the near future when our AC company can fit us in. And yes our AC company says this is too large, but I bought it and got a great deal on it brand new, NOT USED! The separate shop is insulated to the maximum possible and it also has a vapor / heat barrier! We have no printers in that however. Does that answer your concern and question? If not please advise. Thanks, Stu!


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## PGSSStu (Sep 22, 2015)

*there is one thing that you fail to mention and I obviously don't know if this is true because I live in another state and that is that your shop is in a garage in Arizona. * Addressed above

*There is NO humidity in that situation so you can't really expect a printer to function entirely properly in that situation. Did you use a humidifier and if so did you run it full time. As dry as it is out there that will be a problem. * In my discussion above I mentioned a humidifier several times, thank you.

*Also according to the gentleman I spoke with at JP you got this printer at a $2000.00 discount because it was a demo. Is this true? If so then you really can't blame them after they were honest enough and discounted this printer enough mainly to help you out. You probably should have declined to purchase this printer after it had been set up in there showroom for so long. * Hind sight is always 20/20 sir, you are totally right except that I paid far more for that printer than it would have brought on the resale market and that is my mistake. 

*and then you even got a free printhead when they didn't really have to do this. * Obviously you are trying to rewrite Epson's warranty and their policies and we simply must agree to disagree on this point.

*maybe you should chalk this up to a learning experience (albeit an expensive one) and take responsibility for your decision to buy this in the first place. * Your right about that. Never did I say I didn't take responsibility for making the decision to purchase the printer. I thought that I was buying a functioning printer that was used, that's right, a functioning printer. As you can see in one of the email exchanges with JP they were still telling me to flush the old ink out to get it working. I was not advised that the life of the printer was an issue or concern. As I mentioned above, the 1st I learned about that was a comment from an Epson tech at the WPPI show and from what I was told at JP I pooh, poohed that.


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## PGSSStu (Sep 22, 2015)

This sentence is from the 2nd paragraph in the very first post I made sir:

*"We had done everything by the book, left them on 24 hours a day, installed a humidifier, everything including almost daily nozzle checks." *

And we have had a humidifier for many years because there is no humidity in Arizona (rarely) and I have worked and designed many computer systems with over 30 year of experience and I am quite well acquainted with maintaining printers in Arizona. We have had a humidifier years before we met JP. And JP knows this, but again, no one can remember everything, can we?

I realize that you have other things to do and address, so I can understand your forgetting this. Thanks Stu


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## PGSSStu (Sep 22, 2015)

This is the very 1st 2 sentences in the 1st post i made in this thread: *"We have been in the Dye Sublimation business since the beginning of 2006. We have learned a lot but obviously not all and this discussion tells why."*

That should tell you that I made my decisions and that I learned somethings, or did you not read that? I don't know everything and I did everything I said I did and learned a lot. My purpose as stated was to write out our journey as unbiased as possible so that forum members could see and experience what we did, and learn and grow from our missteps. If all you want to do is place blame, great, have at it and enjoy!


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## PGSSStu (Sep 22, 2015)

To answer a question why install the new AC in the garage? Because our Laser Engraving is picking up and that requires partially opening a garage door to exhaust miniscule particles. To simply have an AC/heat pump address any temp changes, is simply a great convenience making it all work together better. Thanks all and I really hope that this will help some future people so they travel down a straighter path to success. That is and was the purpose as mentioned in the very first post. Thanks again!


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## PGSSStu (Sep 22, 2015)

Whilst all this is interesting, I can only hope. The true purpose of this was so that somebody who might be going to make the same mistake(s) or some of them, has something to weigh in against and then make their decisions. We are all responsible for our own actions each and every time. I spent a great deal of time writing this and so did some of you folks and I appreciate that. In questioning things look at the facts, I have placed a copy of email exchanges showing that almost 2 months after the fact (the purchase) I am still supposed to be flushing the printer per JP (note: T-Shirt Forums had me remove email addresses and I goofed by having them in there originally). 

One interesting item I was not aware of, you should check the dealers authorized to sell this series of printers and most likely any printer they are trying to sell you. That was revealing to me and that folks would have changed this whole scenario had I ever done that back in November or before! 

Make sure that you have a great day and make sure this is your best year yet!


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