# Hidden Prices



## Sparkie (Nov 11, 2009)

[rant]

Why do some DTG mfgs/dealers keep there prices locked up inside some hidden vault, while others have no problem displaying their prices?

As a late night e-shopper, I'll be damned if I'll give out my contact info just so some over zealous sales rep gets his/her shot at telling why their equipment is the best. I'll do my own research and make my decision based on what I find online and by contacting the UNBIASED users who are actually using the equipment I am researching.

All I want to do is compare the DTG printers online, INCLUDING PRICES, and see what features I get for my money.

Out of 11 DTG brands I looked at, only 4 proudly displayed all the info I needed, including price. Guess which 4 brands have the best chance of getting my business????

[/rant]

Thanks for listening! I feel better now.


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## equipmentzone (Mar 26, 2008)

Sparkie said:


> [rant]
> 
> Why do some DTG mfgs/dealers keep there prices locked up inside some hidden vault, while others have no problem displaying their prices?
> 
> ...





Can understand your point of view. 

Like driving past a used car for sale by a private party and not seeing a price posted on the for sale sign - just a phone number. Even if interested, the great majority of people will never call to get the price 

_


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## Sparkie (Nov 11, 2009)

equipmentzone said:


> Can understand your point of view.
> 
> Like driving past a used car for sale by a private party and not seeing a price posted on the for sale sign - just a phone number. Even if interested, the great majority of people will never call to get the price
> 
> _


Exactly!

If you are not displaying a price for all to see, then I'll assume 1 of 2 things right off the bat:

Your price is too high and therefore not for me

and/or

You feel you need to talk to me first and fill my head with sales pitch BS, rather than letting the item in question sell itself. To you I say bye-bye, good day!

What I am trying to do here is gather as much info as I can, then narrow my DTG printer choices down to 2 or 3 that appear to be best suited for me. Then *I* will call *YOU* and ask about any details I may have missed and let you fill in the blanks. Once I call you, have at it if you want. Just be careful not to oversell your product to me, because that will raise a red flag in my camp. Yes, I can be a sales rep's worst nightmare.

Harry, EZ (not only because you DO post your prices online) is on my short list for who I'd be happy to do business with. I'm not quite ready to pull the trigger on ANY DTG printer yet, but when I am, I will be looking to talk to you in more detail about the Veloci-Jet XL.

My time frame for making a purchase is between now and the end of this year.


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## tusa (Apr 27, 2014)

I agree that it would be nice if they all advertised their prices, but I don't mind talking to few or a dozen sales reps to get the best deal. They're just trying to do their business and I really don't think one can tell them how to run their business. If you don't like the way they do business, then you should just buy from someone you do like. 

Not all machines are the same. Just because they advertised their prices upfront or it's the cheapest means it's the best machine. My first machine printed great but just wasn't reliable. Second was more expensive, but it's working better for us.

I think "-jet" is another name for junk. T-Jet, Veloci-Jet, Anajet.... all the problems I read on the forums are usually from those machines.

Good luck!


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## Sparkie (Nov 11, 2009)

> ...They're just trying to do their business and I really don't think one can tell them how to run their business.


I am not telling anyone how to run their business. What I am telling them is how I run things on my side. I understand the sales reps have a job to do, but for me, it will be on my terms and on my FREE time.



> If you don't like the way they do business, then you should just buy from someone you do like.


That's my plan.



> Not all machines are the same. Just because they advertised their prices upfront or it's the cheapest means it's the best machine.


Not saying I'm looking for the cheapest machine at all. I'm looking for the best bang for my buck. If no prices are displayed, I have no way to make any comparisons. I can either spend valuable time looking and searching under rocks for a price, or simply move on. I usually end up doing the latter.

As for the "-jet" comment...I'll take that into consideration as I go further with my research.

I'm not saying that my way of doing business is right for everyone. It's just the way that works best for ME.

Thanks for the input!


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## binki (Jul 16, 2006)

Publishing prices undermines their distributor network and market channels


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## PatWibble (Mar 7, 2014)

binki said:


> Publishing prices undermines their distributor network and market channels


So does having potential customers go elswhere.

We have the same problem in the UK with screen printing equipment. Most of the distributors of the imported (US) equipment are very shy about publishing prices. I appreciate that this is partly due to fluctuating exchange rates, but most of their European counterparts still manage to price the goods.

I am a bit like Sparkie, I have usually made 3/4 of the buying decision before I make contact with the supplier. If possible I avoid middle men totally.


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## equipmentzone (Mar 26, 2008)

binki said:


> Publishing prices undermines their distributor network and market channels




In what way?


_


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## CanarianDrifter (Sep 12, 2012)

Just get on the phone!!! If you are interested on a particular machine call and ask for the price... better yet you may be able to negotiate a better deal. Do your research. Calling is part of that research.

CD


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## Sparkie (Nov 11, 2009)

CanarianDrifter said:


> Just get on the phone!!! If you are interested on a particular machine call and ask for the price... better yet you may be able to negotiate a better deal. Do your research. Calling is part of that research.
> 
> CD


I don't want to start sounding like a broken record, but maybe I haven't made it clear as to what it is I'm attempting to do here.

I would like to add a DTG printer to my one man screen printing business. As a one man operation, free time during normal business hours is sometimes difficult to come by. Therefore, I *begin* my equipment research by scouring the internet at night time, usually after regular business hours.

My goal is to gather as much * unbiased* information online as I can for each DTG printer that I might be interested in. Once I have all relavent information, including price, I make a short list of which DTG dealers will get a phone call from me. Rather than making a dozen or so calls and listening to several sales pitches (when all I want at this time is a price), I now only have 2 or 3 phone calls/sales pitches to listen to. For me, that is a time savings of at least 10 - 15 minutes x 9 (sales pitches) which comes to right around 2 hours saved. Time is money. 

I don't want to come accross as a crying baby, I'm just venting a little frustration. I think a lot of folks out there will agree, finding the right DTG printer is no easy task. In fact, I find it more frustrating than researching my next automobile purchase, which until now, was my #1 least favorite purchase to research.

I am in no way telling dealers/mfgs how to run their business, I'm just wishing they would help me out by posting prices on their websites. In my mind, when I don't see a price posted, I gotta figure the price is too high and move on, or I am being baited into making that phone call. If I find enough information that says I might want to look at what they have to offer, they'll go on my short list of calls to make.

So we can conclude that we all have our ways of doing things, no right way, no wrong way. I may be in the minority on this one, but that doesn't make it any less important to me.

My age (60) and past experiences may have something to do with this as well. It's the old_ been there, done that_ kind of thing, and I'm not gonna go through it again.

As far as I'm concerned, case closed. Life will go on for all of us, and I'm happy to go on with my DTG research!


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## Emortal (Jul 19, 2014)

Totally agree with you Sparkie. Not advertising prices is an archaic business practice. It's an attempt to force you into a sales pitch, and whenever I come across it, I know I'm in the wrong place. If you have a good product at a good price, it sells itself. No need for deception.


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## CanarianDrifter (Sep 12, 2012)

I don't know how you or others do your research. If I am interested in a piece of equipment and don't know the price to see if it fits into my budget I call the manufacturer or distributor. Before they go into a sales pitch I tell right out that the only thing I need is the price to see if it fits into my budget. If it is too high I thank him/her and say I am not interested. Period. 2 Minutes. If I am interested and it fits my budget I give them my name, email address, phone and physical address for them to send me more information. Many products are sold by different distributors and each may have different prices, some higher some lower, some are able to bundle software, supplies and other perks for the same price. It would be misleading to the consumer and a disadvantage if a manufacturer list a price and you loose interest in the product because of it without knowing how that price is structured. Think about cars, many dealers sells the same car and prices can vary into the thousands of dollar. If you don't have a few minutes free to call and look out for your interests I don't think I can give you or anyone any advise.

CD


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## Sparkie (Nov 11, 2009)

Thanks again for your input CD, but I was not asking for advise on how to do my research. As I stated above


> So we can conclude that we all have our ways of doing things, no right way, no wrong way.


We can just agree to disagree on our different approaches to doing our own research.

I know you are trying to help and I do appreciate that, so please do not take any offense to my reply.


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## jays tshirt shop (Oct 10, 2014)

just buy a Neoflex research done.


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## CanarianDrifter (Sep 12, 2012)

No offense taken. I understood that you declared "case closed" here. My comment was meant as a general comment. I know that you know how to do your research and need no help. Good for you.

I also understood that your post was to show displeasure about how some dealers and manufacturers don't show their prices out of the bat. Unfortunately that's the way it is. As a general comment and not specifically directed to you because of your "case closed" position, I only would have to say that if anyone pass on a product because it does not list the price right out, is maybe missing an opportunity to learn about a good piece of equipment and possible a good price. If you solely consider equipment based on the listed price that you can afford and then inquire about it's features from the seller you may be shorting yourself out because of your refusal to accept that some dealers prefer negotiating based on the printer's features and your needs.

Again, this is just a general comment not directed to the OP. Although even when the OP "closed the case" the topic still can be open for input and other people's perspectives relating to it.

CD


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## PatWibble (Mar 7, 2014)

The salesmans part of the equation is, and should become increasingly marginalised. There is a wealth of information available online, and via social media. Most of the buying decision can be made prior to making contact with the vendor. And that includes the price. Most salesmen are as interested in selling the finance agreement, or an extended warranty, as they are in selling the product.
Over the next few years the salesmans job will become increasingly marginalised, and they will be come little more than a face at a trade show. 

This year I have added a 24" Canon printer, for film making, and a 24" Graphtec cutter. Both were researched online,as much as they needed to be, and were bought from two companies who advertised their prices. Both were bought, via a shopping cart, online.

I am in a similar position to Sparkie, in that I want to add an extra production method to my business, yet I am struggling t find price information. I have accrued a sum of cash in the business bank account, and I am looking at one of four options - DTG, embroidery, wide format solvent printer, or automatic flatbed screen printer. So far I am leaning toward the solvent printer, or automatic, and that is partly down to the fact that I can find an advertised price, which enhances my decision making process. Mimaki are advertising some good deals, or, in the case of the auto, I can deal direct with the factory.

I have been in business since the late 1980's, and in that time I have heard a thousand sales pitches. Hardly any have had my interests at heart. I am more than comfortable about spending large amounts of money, but it will be on my own terms. I don't need my hand holding, nor my ego massaged. The money won't be prized from my fingers by a salesman.

I am a seasoned businessman. I make buying decisions - I don't get sold things.


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## Sparkie (Nov 11, 2009)

@ CD: In hindsight, case closed was a poor choice of words on my part. What I meant by that is my rant has been spoken, and I have no more to add to the (rant) portion of the discussion.

I still have an open ear to what others, including as yourself, have to say. From discussion comes growth. We can all learn something, and by all, I mean consumers/users as well as dealers/mfgs.




PatWibble said:


> The salesmans part of the equation is, and should become increasingly marginalised. There is a wealth of information available online, and via social media. Most of the buying decision can be made prior to making contact with the vendor. And that includes the price. Most salesmen are as interested in selling the finance agreement, or an extended warranty, as they are in selling the product.
> Over the next few years the salesmans job will become increasingly marginalised, and they will be come little more than a face at a trade show.
> 
> This year I have added a 24" Canon printer, for film making, and a 24" Graphtec cutter. Both were researched online,as much as they needed to be, and were bought from two companies who advertised their prices. Both were bought, via a shopping cart, online.
> ...


@ Pat: Well said!


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## Sparkie (Nov 11, 2009)

*Bolding* below is mine:



CanarianDrifter said:


> ...
> 
> I also understood that your post was to show displeasure about how some dealers and manufacturers don't show their prices out of the bat. Unfortunately that's the way it is. As a general comment and not specifically directed to you because of your "case closed" position, I only would have to say that if anyone pass on a product because it does not list the price right out, is maybe missing an opportunity to learn about a good piece of equipment and possible a good price. If you solely consider equipment based on the listed price that you can afford and then inquire about it's features from the seller *you may be shorting yourself out* because of your refusal to accept that some dealers prefer negotiating based on the printer's features and your needs.
> 
> CD



Would you say I am the only one losing out...or would you agree that the dealer is losing out as well??


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## EricDeem (May 7, 2011)

I know a lot of dealers/mfg like to keep prices private and I really don't understand it either. But that being said, you shouldn't be buying ANY DTG printer based solely on price. Price is EXTREMELY important but there are definitely many many other things to consider. Not all salespeople are the same either. Some of them have real world print shop experience and not just brochure regurgitaters. Do you homework on the forums to narrow down the printer based on total user experience, quality of print and service. You shouldn't cross a specific printer off the list just because of the pricing being listed or not if it meets or beats all the other requirements.


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## CanarianDrifter (Sep 12, 2012)

Mark, I think both the dealers and the buyer's loses opportunity to sell or to buy an specific piece of equipment but I also think it is for the wrong reasons. If the buyer will not consider the equipment because the manufacturer doesn't disclose their prices on major equipment mostly to protect its dealers pricing structure, the buyer may be losing finding out if the equipment fits their operation and/or budget. The dealer may also lose because buyer's may think because if the price is not publicy disclosed is either too expensive or out of their league. My opinion is that the buyer is more at a disavantage by not inquiring into a piece of equipment that is atractive to them. When I want to find out about undisclosed prices I tell the customer service of salesman to cut to the chase because I don't want to waste their time nor mine on a sales pitch.

On the part of the dealers it could be a good or bad sales strategy but that's the way it is and I don't foresee any changes because a few people don't like that policy.

CD


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## Sparkie (Nov 11, 2009)

CanarianDrifter said:


> ...
> On the part of the dealers it could be a good or bad sales strategy but that's the way it is and I don't foresee any changes because a few people don't like that policy.
> 
> CD


On that, we ARE in agreement.


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## Sparkie (Nov 11, 2009)

I'm not here to discuss an _I'm right, they're wrong_ kind of thing, so take in these links as informational purposes only. I'm sure both sides can dig deep to find fuel for the fire, but that only proves there are two sides to every story.

I did a Google search for b2b price on website, and here are the first three links that came up for me. Note: I used Google search tools and chose to search within the last year only.

Pricing information gives B2B sites a competitive advantage

Should You Display Prices on Your B2B Website?

How to Display Prices to Increase B2B Leads -Jeremy Said


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## PatWibble (Mar 7, 2014)

Sparkie said:


> I'm not here to discuss an _I'm right, they're wrong_ kind of thing, so take in these links as informational purposes only. I'm sure both sides can dig deep to find fuel for the fire, but that only proves there are two sides to every story.
> 
> I did a Google search for b2b price on website, and here are the first three links that came up for me. Note: I used Google search tools and chose to search within the last year only.
> 
> ...


Good examples. And like you said the other 'side' will be able to counter that approach. 

I haven't studied the articles fully, but the first one seems to sum up my point of view.

If the price ( or _a_ price) isn't displayed, then I am obliged to make contact with the salesman.
Right or wrong, my attitude to salesmen is a little bit 'Victorian', in that, like children, they should be 'seen and not heard', and only 'speak when they are spoken to'. 
Harsh, I know, but their are plenty of salesmen who have never had any contact with me, find an order put in front of them, without having to do any work.

At the end of the day, some buyers need or want lots of contact with the seller, for reassurance, persuasion or even for a sense of having received good service. I am one of the ones who doesn't need that. 
If I want it, and can justify the cost, I will buy it . And trust to my own due diligence and research. That is not to say that I will not ask questions if I think they are warranted.

Maybe it is because I am usually a cash buyer. I know how hard the money was to earn. Before I make contact I want to be sure that I have made the decision that is right for me, without any outside influence. 
If I were buying on 60 month credit, and 'only had to sell 10 shirts a day' to cover the finance cost, then maybe I would be open to persuasion. Maybe.


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## ghostofmedusa (Mar 12, 2013)

FreeJet offers a great machine, but doesn't list price. Had one for a little over a year now, no issues. High Definition prints. Very thoughtfully designed and built like a tank. 

I would imagine some don't list price, allowing them flexibility in making deals with certain customers. Pretty sure not all Neo's or Ana's go out the door at exactly $15,999 (or whatever they are priced at...). Anyone who sincerely stands behind their product (new or used) should be looked at a 2nd and 3rd time... Showing price online doesn't necessarily reflect shady money grubbing salesmen (_with hands shuffling/rubbing together_). Could simply mean they know DTG needs to be explained a little more to potential buyers, before slapping an all encompassing price to it.

I get what your sayin tho, a price would help you identify what was in your price range or not. And although a quick drive-by of a used auto is a good way of getting a very small snap-shot of that vehicle, it should never be compared to buying a highly technical piece of equipment like a DTG machine. Apples to Lemons right there (_psychological imagery intended_).. Most people know what to do with a crappy used vehicle on the side of the road... But most people's heads explode when they sit down in front an actual DTG machine, for the first time, in their garage, about to push the big red button...

Personally, I'd rather see a yellow/orange "Check Engine" light, than some crazy blinking red Epson lights.. 
Point Being: Don't write em off because of price visibility. I'd put purchasing a DTG machine right up there with buying a home or car - because all three are big investments in your future, and all three include a big $10-20K down payment up front... 

Hope that helped put things in perspective for you a little bit more...


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## ghostofmedusa (Mar 12, 2013)

PatWibble said:


> ...
> Right or wrong, my attitude to salesmen is a little bit 'Victorian', in that, like children, they should be 'seen and not heard', and only 'speak when they are spoken to'.
> Harsh, I know, but their are plenty of salesmen who have never had any contact with me, find an order put in front of them, without having to do any work....


You just described every Canadian car dealership just there. lolz. Very pleasant experience, and highly respected job in Toronto. Then drive 2 hours into Detroit (Detwah) and here cometh the money grubbing, hands rubbing together, plaid sport coat wearin', patches on the elbows havin', Zig Ziegler readin', _"Heeeeyyy Guy!, what brings you in here today"_ sayin old codger... Complete with mustard remnants in corners of mouth...

Slap a suit and tie on that same guy and "Poof"... instant loan officer .


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## Sparkie (Nov 11, 2009)

ghostofmedusa said:


> ...I would imagine some don't list price, allowing them flexibility in making deals with certain customers. Pretty sure not all Neo's or Ana's go out the door at exactly $15,999 (or whatever they are priced at...). ...


Different prices for certain customers? Repeat paying customers, sure, I'll give them a better price almost every time. But for potential customers roaming the internet?.?.? what makes my money any less valuable than someone else's money?

Post a base price for me to see, or better yet, a price range based on options, something like $14,995.00 to $18,995.00. That has a better chance of drawing me in than no price at all.

I'm not trying to change the world of online shopping. I'm just expressing my view and my experiences over the last 60 years of my life.

I'm a believer in what J.P. Morgan said: _"If you have to ask the price, you can't affort it"._


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## EricDeem (May 7, 2011)

Too add to the car dealership reference. In most cases people don't buy a car without seeing it in person and giving it a good look. I HIGHLY recommend you do a similar thing and visit a trade show to see and touch the machines in person. Plus you will get a feel for the company and their staff as with DTG it is inevitable that you will have interactions with them in the future. DTG is totally different animal than any other printing technique and having confidence in not only the machine but who it was purchased from will help you sleep at night.


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## DTGPRINTERPARTS (Jul 13, 2012)

When you don't see a price on a machine probably is an indicator that prices could be different at a tradeshow than just inquiring or could indicate prices could be different from salesman to salesman. This creates problems amongst customers because they all talk and if one person got sold a machine at a lower cost they feel ripped off. I feel ripped off with my first sale. I bought a DTG for $32K and then found out that another guy bought his for $25K with all the same thing. Man was I heated. I am still good friends with him to this day 8 years later


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## Marc101 (Oct 18, 2013)

I had the same problem when searching machines over the years. I hated coming across sellers that did not post the price of there product, but the funny part was 9/10 times, a fast google search of the specific machine and the price would turn up somewhere. Usually a thread in here actually.


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## DTGPRINTERPARTS (Jul 13, 2012)

Marc101 said:


> I had the same problem when searching machines over the years. I hated coming across sellers that did not post the price of there product, but the funny part was 9/10 times, a fast google search of the specific machine and the price would turn up somewhere. Usually a thread in here actually.


Haha funny. Google picks up it all


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## equipmentzone (Mar 26, 2008)

Sparkie said:


> Different prices for certain customers? Repeat paying customers, sure, I'll give them a better price almost every time. But for potential customers roaming the internet?.?.? what makes my money any less valuable than someone else's money?
> 
> Post a base price for me to see, or better yet, a price range based on options, something like $14,995.00 to $18,995.00. That has a better chance of drawing me in than no price at all.
> 
> ...




Agree on posting equipment prices. Smart from a seller point of view also. 

Over the years i've driven past a huge number of driveways with used cars for sale and only the phone number on the for sale sign, no prices. As interested as I was in some cars I never picked up the phone to call for the price. I think most people did the same.

_


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