# screen print prices...wtf



## Binary01 (Jun 2, 2007)

so my screenprinter stated that they have different rates for printing...

one rate if i order my shirts through them...which i did in the past months but then seen the prices after the fact

one rate if i bring in my own shirts...... which i will assume will be higher now


is this standard practice?

and if not, how can i get my screens from the printer and go to another spot?.... i paid $25 per screen and have about 30 of them so far....


need to know asap...since i have a wholesale order i'm waiting on from the buyer

b


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## drakesis (Apr 3, 2007)

$25 per screen is the screen charge for burning them, you didn't actually 'BUY' them.

Most places will have higher screening prices when you supply the shirts, but there are other places that don't.


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## perrolocodesigns (Oct 24, 2006)

I charge a little more for customers who bring in their own shirts.

You would probably have to buy the screen from the printer....you don't own the screens, they do. My guess is, you would come out cheaper having a new printer remake the screens at $25.00 a pop.


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## Fluid (Jun 20, 2005)

We also have various pricing.

Contract
Custom
Customer supply goods (different from contract) 
If the customer is a constant repeat customer supplying their own goods they are considered a contract client. Not just 2-5 orders per year, but 2-5 orders per month.

We charge $20 per screen and $10 on re orders for custom jobs. $10 initial and $5 reorders for contract customers

Customer supply goods get $20 per screen

This is the business. Some hid the fees in their pricing and some do not.


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## Binary01 (Jun 2, 2007)

i still think it's b.s. if they are gonna give me different rates after the fact....

i was running this setup
1 color back/2 color front/1 color inside tag
3 screen setups (but the back and tag were the same on all the shirts)

i was getting charges $3.00 per shirt for that plus the setup costs at $5.00 per setup

this was the rate if i bought shirts through them...

i'm thinking that that will probably jump up to $5.00 per shirt just to print.....

b


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## Ripcord (Sep 2, 2006)

To embellish on the screen charge, it covers the cost of the chemicals required to burn, clean, and reclaim the screen, and the time spent doing this as well as preparing the screen for press (clamp, tape, register, etc.). The actual frame and mesh of the screen is not factored in to the screen charge as it can be reused again and again.


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## howszful (Jul 1, 2007)

We do not silk screen, we heat press vinyl and have tried sublimation, so things may be different for silk screeners, however... We allowed someone to supply their own shirts ONCE. The problem that arose with that fiasco was a learning experience. Through which we discovered the following:
1) you never know where your client may be getting their shirts from...it could be walmart or factory2you, etc
2) not all shirts are "print ready"
3) shirts that are not print ready can have some sort of fabric treatment on them that you are unaware of
4) shirts with unknown fabric treatment can scorch in the heat press application process
5) scorched shirts are fairly undesireable in the t-shirt market
6) undesireable scorched shirts can be difficult to replace with identcal shirts that are "print ready" and guaranteed to not have some sort of unknown fabric treatment
7) both you and your client will be disappointed should any of the above happen


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## Binary01 (Jun 2, 2007)

all the shirts i'm getting are form the distributors...gildan/bella/etc....

maybe i'm over-reacting a bit...not sure..... but after i found out the prices they were charging me for the shirts after the fact..... i sort of got a little pissed off..... especially when they knew that i was reselling these in my line and didnt seem to take that in mind for future business


b


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## Comin'OutSwingin (Oct 28, 2005)

I have found that what you are experiencing is normal. 

If you don't like it, I would suggest you find a printer that doesn't charge extra for bringing your own items.

The question then is "Is the quality and service just as good?". Only you can answer that. 

Lots of printers mark up the price on the garments, and if you bring in your own, they mark up the price of the printing in order to make up the loss of profit on the garments.

Luckily for me, I have a printer that lets me bring in my own garments, and I come out better than if I purchased garments & printing from them. 

Maybe you can find the same. Good luck!


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## Binary01 (Jun 2, 2007)

i think that prices should be based from printing and they shouldnt be based from selling a shirt....

it's like me saying, hey i'll design and build you a house for xx,xxx but if i only design it then the rate is higher because i wont make the money from the build...

these are 2 separate issues
1.resell a shirt
2. print a shirt

what if i just wanted to buy a shirt without printing...am i getting a higher price per shirt since they wont print.....


it's one thing if the order is a one-off or a rare customer....

but when a customer states he has a clothing line that he just dropped 5,000 on then wouldnt you think differently


this is why i'm buying my own shirts...i cant afford the high markup on quantities

b


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## howszful (Jul 1, 2007)

We didn't charge a higher rate for printing due to a client bringing in their own shirts. It couldn't be justified ethically. I'm just saying that it can present hassles in producing a product that satisfies the producer, the client and the end wearer. No matter what venture you take on in life, you will have to weed out the folks with questionable ethics as you go along. You can't blame a pig for acting like a pig, but you can choose not to mire with them.


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## Comin'OutSwingin (Oct 28, 2005)

I kind of agree with you. 

Problems can arise by a printer printing on supplied garments, but they can be worked through. I normally purchase a few extra than I need, just in case there is a problem. 

It's as though they want to be in the shirt printing business AND the shirt selling business. I really can't fault them for that, but I do see how it can be a question of ethics. The problem is that not all people have the same ethics.

You and I can say it is questionable, but that doesn't necessarily make it so. 

I think the only solution is that if one deems it questionable, then one should find a printer that doesn't do business that way.

They are out there.


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## perrolocodesigns (Oct 24, 2006)

howszful said:


> We didn't charge a higher rate for printing due to a client bringing in their own shirts. It couldn't be justified ethically. I'm just saying that it can present hassles in producing a product that satisfies the producer, the client and the end wearer. No matter what venture you take on in life, you will have to weed out the folks with questionable ethics as you go along. You can't blame a pig for acting like a pig, but you can choose not to mire with them.


 
Some of you are looking at this totally backward. I do not charge _more_ to print customer supplied shirts. I charge _less_ to print shirts I sell. The price for printing customer supplied shirts is the REGULAR PRICE. If I sell the shirts I charge less for the printing. What is unethical about that??????


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## perrolocodesigns (Oct 24, 2006)

237am said:


> it's one thing if the order is a one-off or a rare customer....
> 
> but when a customer states he has a clothing line that he just dropped 5,000 on then wouldnt you think differently
> 
> b


 
I hear the promise of "Big Orders Will Follow" ALL THE TIME. You know what? It rarely happens. I charge a price for the job I'm doing, not the promise of something bigger in the future.

Sounds like you need to start your own printing operation.


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## Binary01 (Jun 2, 2007)

depends how you look at it.....

you make that extra cash by reselling the shirt...say by 90-100% markup.... so off a t-shirt you make $2-4 per shirt....then add printing...my printing cost $3 plus setups.......

so
say $3 wholesale for shirt
plus $3 for markup
plus $3 for printing
plus setups costs

now i'm at $9 plus some change (for setups)..... then you think i can wholesale them for $18 to retail....considering i'm a new line?....


if i can get my shirts in the range of $6-$8.00 per then my wholesale would be alot better.......


so with that said.... if i cut out the markup and supply the shirts.... is it right for the printer to raise the cost of printing from $3 to say $4-$5 per

i can understand everyones views...... it's just a concern i had and needed some feedback

b


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## Fluid (Jun 20, 2005)

> i think that prices should be based from printing and they shouldnt be based from selling a shirt....


 Purchase your own equipment and print your own shirts. 

We are all in this for the money. As mentioned before if you feel your being taken for a ride, find another printer. How often do you have shirts printed and how many are being printed?


perrolocodesigns said:


> I hear the promise of "Big Orders Will Follow" ALL THE TIME. You know what? It rarely happens. I charge a price for the job I'm doing, not the promise of something bigger in the future.
> 
> Sounds like you need to start your own printing operation.


I get at least one of these a day.

Everyone and their brother are starting a clothing line - How many actually make it? Whats to say they will stay with you if and when they do make it. Heck, I bet they will take their production over seas to save more money. Pretty much the norm these days


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## Comin'OutSwingin (Oct 28, 2005)

perrolocodesigns said:


> Some of you are looking at this totally backward. I do not charge _more_ to print customer supplied shirts. I charge _less_ to print shirts I sell. The price for printing customer supplied shirts is the REGULAR PRICE. If I sell the shirts I charge less for the printing. What is unethical about that??????


It's funny you should say we are looking at it backward, when you stated yourself you charge more for printing on customer supplied shirts. Let me remind you of your statement:




perrolocodesigns said:


> *I charge a little more for customers who bring in their own shirts.*


I guess you are looking at it backward too, then.  

It's not backward at all, though. If you are charging less to print on shirts you sell, then you ARE charging more to prints shirts you don't. That's why you said it yourself. It just makes sense.

That's simple. Just as an example, if you charge $5 to print on shirts you sell, and $6 to print on shirts you don't, you can't say you don't charge more to print on shirts you don't sell. 

If it makes you feel better to say it that way, fine. But the results are the same. And the FACT is that if you are charging LESS to print on shirts you sell, then you ARE charging MORE to print on shirts you don't.

Don't try to get us caught up in semantics.

Like I said, I can't really fault a shop for trying to make some extra money by selling shirts.

I just personally have a problem with the printing price not being definite. I happen to believe the printing price should be the printing price, regarless of whether the shirts are supplied by me or not.

If they want to make extra money on selling shirts, more power to them, but I don't think it's right to try to make extra money on the printing because you couldn't make it on the shirt, especially if it's not costing you anymore to print on my shirt than yours.


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## Fluid (Jun 20, 2005)

Its just making up for lost profits. Everyone does it. Most t-shirt vendors will charge extra for using a credit card as they are loosing a percentage from the cc company. They compensate this by offering a "cash discount".
Pretty much the same deal.


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## Comin'OutSwingin (Oct 28, 2005)

Not the same at all, and no, not everyone does it.

They are passing along the costs incurred by their cc processor.

There's no extra costs incurred by me supplying my own shirts.


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## neato (Mar 21, 2006)

Well,

As a printer, I find this thread very interesting.

I sort of look at things differently. 

Most of my customers are contract customers. That means, they are setup with an apparel supplier, order the shirts themselves and send them to me. For those customers, I charge a contract price, which is about 30-50% less than retail.

If I get a local customer, or I have to get the shirts myself, they become a retail customer. I tack on 50% to my wholesale price AND I mark up the shirt.

Why? Because I don't expect a ton of repeat business from them and it takes a fair amount of time to order shirts. And since I buy the shirts at wholesale prices, I'm entitled to mark them up.

Now, if a retail customer (Joe Blow from down the street) wants me to print on shirts he bought at Wal Mart, sure, I'll do it. But I charge my retail printing price and NEVER guarantee the print to last.

To me, this seems like a fair way to deal with pricing for both parties.


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## neato (Mar 21, 2006)

I should say, for those printers that decide to charge more per print for customer supplied shirts, I don't blame them. I personally don't work that way. But for many printers, a large part of the profit in a shirt business is the shirt itself.

It isn't unethical unless the printer lies about it. But in this case, obviously the customer knew about the extra charge, so how can he complain? Either pay it or move on.

I guess we could look at this from another perspective too. the retail customer.

He could say it's not fair to charge $18 - $24 for a shirt when it only cost you $6 total. He could also say that's unethical. But he's the one who choses to buy the product. Nobody forces him to!


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## Squirts (Feb 17, 2006)

Comin'OutSwingin said:


> There's no extra costs incurred by me supplying my own shirts.


 But there is "Lost" Profit and that has the same effect on the bottom line. If I Lose the .50 mark up per shirt on a thousand shirt order thats 500.00 less I make printing your shirts instead of the order sitting next to it.. If yours is sitting with 10 other orders I can no longer afford to tie up the press on your order the lost profit becomes huge... The Loss thus is made up in a .50 higher printing rate.. Thats Business... NOW if you can buy your own shirts cheap enough that that .50 increase still puts you below my prices... then supplying your own shirts works out great for both of us.. I'm Happy & your Estatic.. 
If for some reason that just doesnt workout for you, then theres always the printer down the street.... Good Luck...


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## Fluid (Jun 20, 2005)

Exactly Chuck. Loss Profit is Loss profit no matter how you look at it.
Another example is a restaurant letting you bring your own bottle of wine yet charging a corking fee. The fee is to help compensate for the loss revenue of selling a bottle or glass of wine.


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## rusty (Feb 9, 2007)

Fluid said:


> Exactly Chuck. Loss Profit is Loss profit no matter how you look at it.
> Another example is a restaurant letting you bring your own bottle of wine yet charging a corking fee. The fee is to help compensate for the loss revenue of selling a bottle or glass of wine.


Actually Richard, a better example would be this... go by Wal-Mart and buy a rib-eye steak and take it to your favorite Steakhouse and tell them you want them to cook it for you and charge you only for the price of cooking it. They will laugh you out the door and ask you not to come back. A portion of a screen printers profits are built into selling shirts. When you go around them for supplies, you are taking business from them.

I hate it when a customer wants me to print on their shirts, because of all the problems already mentioned. And they will get a less quality product too. I just had a friend of mine go and buy 30 shirts at Wal-Mart and bring them to me to print. 2 of the 30 would not have passed my quality print standards. Under normal circumstances, I would have scrapped them and reprinted new ones. But there's no way I'm going to go to Wal-Mart and replace his 2 shirts I messed up, that I could have gotten cheaper from my supplier in the first place. So he gets 28 good shirts and 2 crappy ones. The only reason I did this job was because he was a friend of mine and I was doing him a favor.

So I absolutely charge more when somebody wants to cut out my profits from the job. And please don't suggest this is an issue of ethics. The only way it's unethical is if they lie to you about the pricing. It doesn't sound like anybody lied. This is a matter of business. Now, you can find some printers that may print on your shirts without charging extra, but it will only be the printers that really need work and aren't busy. Any business-smart printer will take a full-profit job over a half-profit job any day.

Also agreed, I get as many promises of "I'm going to be ordering a bunch of shirts in the future" as I do real orders. If 50% of the people that say they are going to be wanting some shirts really did order shirts, I'd be swamped.


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## Binary01 (Jun 2, 2007)

lets see...

so far i think that the majority of the printers make most of the cash on the selling of a shirt and not the print.....

question now is that if i supply the shirt...(bought from a distributor with a wholesale account).... why should printing matter......

you could make the same amount of cash if i supply twice as many shirts and you print twice as many....... so in the overall scheme.... it'll even out..right

i buy shirt for $3......
you charge me $3 to print........
so we are at $6 now....

so since there isnt a markup from the printer, i re-invest that money and buy another shirt for $3

then i let you print it... at $3

so now i have 2 shirts for $12 opposed to 1 shirt for $9

no excess money out of the company for ordering shirts.....just time/materials for labor......

if i have to come up with a few grand to get my own setup, i will..... but i would like to figure all this out and not get every one ryled up over it.....

it's a common debate......

the printers job is to "print" the shirt...... hence screen-printing.... no where in the job/business description did it say "retail store".....

b


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## rusty (Feb 9, 2007)

You are right in the sense that it's a business decision made by the printer. If I thought a client would give me thousands of $$ of business by printing on his shirts, sure I would do it. If some guy with a "plan" to print a bunch of shirts comes to me and wants me to print on his shirts for the first 100, that's a lot different.


237am said:


> so since there isnt a markup from the printer, i re-invest that money and buy another shirt for $3


There is no reason for a printer to think that money he gives to the customer will be given back in additional orders. So if a printer is basing their business success on that premise, they might not be in business long.



237am said:


> if i have to come up with a few grand to get my own setup, i will.....


and just fyi, it will cost more than a few grand to get up and printing professional quality shirts. You can do it, but it will take a lot of money and probably even more time to learn the trade.

Maybe you should consider plastisol transfers. You can buy the shirts yourself and press them yourself. It would save a lot of money.


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## gareyd (May 5, 2007)

I'm a printer...have been for 40 years.

I print large format digital, I silkscreen Point of Purchase signs, banners and posters and silkscreen / DTG shirts.

I am in business to MAKE MONEY. The fun factor went out years ago!!

My way of pricing is to figure _*all*_ material prices that it will take to produce your job and then add a _*markup*_, (I've had my money tied up in my inventory and will have to replace all materials used on your job keeping my money tied up..._*hence the markup*_)

Then I figure employee hourly salary that it will take to do your job and triple it (I pay $$ to the employee, $$ to workers compensation, $$ for insurance and benefits etc.)

Now we get to the fixed overhead...power, property taxes, insurance, water, etc. We average 26 work days a month, so I know what I have to make per day just to pay the overhead...so I am going to take that figure and _*add a markup*_...I'm not going to swap dollars just to pay the overhead.

Now if we stay busy through the month, and I can charge out all the billable labor and material costs and markups, I can cover the days that we are slack and I hafta pay all the above out of my pocket...and still make a little money.

Yes, I will print on customer supplied materials...and when I figure the quote on the job, I will back out the *cost of the materials*, but I will still include the markup, the total labor and overhead costs...This way the total job doesn't cost you anymore...you just have to write 2 checks, one to your materials supplier and one to the me.


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## theflowerboxx (Mar 26, 2007)

237am said:


> lets see...
> 
> the printers job is to "print" the shirt...... hence screen-printing.... no where in the job/business description did it say "retail store".....
> 
> b


Open up a brick and mortar business and see how long it takes you before you realize that there is no job description. You're everything and make a buck wherever you can. 

I don't screenprint, but I do press vinyl and I always charge a customer more if they supply their own shirt, that's part of business.





> I'm a printer...have been for 40 years.
> 
> I print large format digital, I silkscreen Point of Purchase signs, banners and posters and silkscreen / DTG shirts.
> 
> ...


Very good post.


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## Comin'OutSwingin (Oct 28, 2005)

Squirts said:


> But there is "Lost" Profit and that has the same effect on the bottom line. If I Lose the .50 mark up per shirt on a thousand shirt order thats 500.00 less I make printing your shirts instead of the order sitting next to it.. If yours is sitting with 10 other orders I can no longer afford to tie up the press on your order the lost profit becomes huge... The Loss thus is made up in a .50 higher printing rate.. Thats Business... NOW if you can buy your own shirts cheap enough that that .50 increase still puts you below my prices... then supplying your own shirts works out great for both of us.. I'm Happy & your Estatic..
> If for some reason that just doesnt workout for you, then theres always the printer down the street.... Good Luck...


It's only lost profit because you want to profit from it. It's the way you CHOOSE to do business. I don't have a problem with that.

It's almost like saying, here's a job that's going to cost me $100 to fill over here, and another job that's going to cost me $75 to fill over here.

Since I WANT to make a certain amount from the total job, I'm going to charge the guy that has the order that's going to cost me $75 to fill, $100 so I don't lose any money.

Your prerogative. But it's also mine to find a printer that doesn't do business that way.

I just happen to think profit should be figured on what it costs you per order, and mark up from there. Not what you think you should make, even though it's not costing you more to fill it.

And by the way, I did go to the printer down the street, and have had great luck!



neato said:


> Most of my customers are contract customers. That means, they are setup with an apparel supplier, order the shirts themselves and send them to me. For those customers, I charge a contract price, which is about 30-50% less than retail.
> 
> If I get a local customer, or I have to get the shirts myself, they become a retail customer. I tack on 50% to my wholesale price AND I mark up the shirt.
> 
> ...


This seems very fair to me.



rusty said:


> Now, you can find some printers that may print on your shirts without charging extra, but it will only be the printers that really need work and aren't busy. Any business-smart printer will take a full-profit job over a half-profit job any day.


Now, you are just making generalizations, and that doesn't do anybody any good. Unless you KNOW this to be the case, it's just pointless to say such things.

Just so you know, MY printer does business this way and has always done business this way. They've been in business since 1980, and are the best around!

They stay busy because everyone wants them to print for them. I've been going to them for a couple of years now, and they treat the little guy, just like the big guy.

You see, what you are forgetting is that not everybody views it the way you do. This includes printers, which is why there are plenty out there that don't charge extra to print on supplied items. And some of them happen to be very good.


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## DAGuide (Oct 2, 2006)

Oh, how great it is to live in a supply / demand economy. In several posts, people have explained what the norm in the industry is - charge more if you supply your own garments. Are there shops out there that work differently? SURE. But, that is not the norm.

What I don't understand in this thread is how people want to tell others how to run their business. The end user should not tell any of us how to price our products. You set your price and the end user chooses to go with you, choose another decorator or not to make a purchase at all. If the decorator does not get any business, he/she can either change the pricing structure or go out of business for another line of work. The same could be said true for a printer that wants to use the norm pricing structure. If they price themselves out of the market, they will need to look at their pricing. But, if they choose to put their service (and their reputation) in the premium-pricing category if you supply your own goods, then that is their rights. It has nothing to do about ethics if it is upfront. This is what Adam Smith wrote about when he described the "Invisible Hand" of economy about 250 years ago.

If a decorator that outsources the production decides that he/she does not want to participate in the normal pricing layout, then the decorator should look at an alternative printing method. This will require an investment on the decorator - which is the opportunity cost of getting the ability to make a large percent of the profits. But, this also requires more time and the willingness of the decorator to take a risk. The other way provides the decorator with a benefit (no investment, product at a good price). When the reward of extra profits exceeds the risk of the investment plus the cost of production (time, labor, expense,...), then the decorator should do the production in-house.

Printers mark up the cost if the garment is supplied not only to cover the loss profits as described above, but also to help compensate for their loss in buying power with the wholesale apparel companies. Just like anything else, the more shirts a printer buys - the better price the printer gets (and usually it is on almost every order). So when you bring your own garments, you are taking away the buying power of the printer. Although it might be marginal if you are only looking at one order, it can add up if more orders come with their own garments.

It is simple economics. On a closing note, it has been told that our industry is #2 in the rankings of percent of failed businesses. #1 is the restaurant industry. Compared to other industries, it is very cheap to start your own business. But, very few companies take the time to look at their pricing and charge appropriately. Most get into a competitive bidding war with another decorator just to get a job. Ultimately, making very little of no profit at all. These are the companies that help keep our industry so high up on the ranking - which is where we don't want to be.

Just some things for people to consider.

Mark


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## Comin'OutSwingin (Oct 28, 2005)

DAGuide said:


> What I don't understand in this thread is how people want to tell others how to run their business. The end user should not tell any of us how to price our products. You set your price and the end user chooses to go with you, choose another decorator or not to make a purchase at all.


I don't recall reading where someone told someone else how to run their business.

Where was this? I know I said I didn't agree with it, but to each his own. I didn't tell anyone else how to run their business, and I didn't see anyone else tell someone this either.



DAGuide said:


> It has nothing to do about ethics if it is upfront.


A number of you have said similar things in this thread and I completely disagree. You can be upfront, and out in the open and still be unethical. I can tell you to your face that I'm robbing you blind. It doesn't make it right, now does it? Yes, lying is unethical, but it's not the only thing that's unethical! Unethical doesn't necessarily mean deceit is involved, as some of you suggest.

Like I said before, when dealing with ethics, opinions vary. What may be unethical to me, may be deemed perfectely acceptable for someone else, and vice versa. I'm willing to concede this. I just happen to have a differing viewpoint, that's all.

I'm not begrudging anyone making their profit any way that want, legally. That's their business.

Personally, I would much rather deal with a printer that said I don't print on customer supplied items, than one that said they were going to charge me the same amount for the job if I brought my own shirts, as the person that didn't.

Again, that's a personal choice. I'm not wrong for thinking it may be unethical, just as you are not wrong for believing there's nothing wrong with it. Ethics are personal, and differ from person-to-person.

To be quite honest, I haven't completely made up my mind about the issue. But I can certainly see how someone would come to the conclusion that it's a little iffy. 

For me if I have a choice of printers to print my shirts for my business, and I want to supply my own shirts, and company "A" charges me extra, and company "B" doesn't, I'm going to probably go with company "B". Then when I consider that company "B" has better quality, more experience, excellent customer service, and faster turnaround times than anyone else around, it's a no brainer!

When company "B" can offer all of that, all the other companies are going to have a hard time competing!


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## Binary01 (Jun 2, 2007)

gareyd said:


> Yes, I will print on customer supplied materials...and when I figure the quote on the job, I will back out the *cost of the materials*, but I will still include the markup, the total labor and overhead costs...This way the total job doesn't cost you anymore...you just have to write 2 checks, one to your materials supplier and one to the me.



you mention cost of materials..... so you still take out the cost of the shirt but keep the markup?



people say lost of profit.....wtf....... more-less a gain in profit if you look at the job at hand.....

sure you have over head but thats the nature of the business..... you took that risk to open a large shop/etc.....

key point is to keep overhead low...... 

sure you have to hustle but when i would compare straight up prices from 2 printers and seeing that 1 guy charges me different rates then i would prolly go with the other guy that has a flat rate......


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## rusty (Feb 9, 2007)

Comin'OutSwingin said:


> Now, you are just making generalizations, and that doesn't do anybody any good. Unless you KNOW this to be the case, it's just pointless to say such things.


It may be a generalization, but I think it's accurate. And since this is a discussion board, I think everybody is entitled to discuss. Just as you are entitled to say my point is pointless .



Comin'OutSwingin said:


> Just so you know, MY printer does business this way and has always done business this way. They've been in business since 1980, and are the best around!
> 
> They stay busy because everyone wants them to print for them. I've been going to them for a couple of years now, and they treat the little guy, just like the big guy.
> 
> You see, what you are forgetting is that not everybody views it the way you do. This includes printers, which is why there are plenty out there that don't charge extra to print on supplied items. And some of them happen to be very good.


That's great that you've found a printer you like. How do you know he doesn't charge a premium for customer supplied shirts?


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## rusty (Feb 9, 2007)

Comin'OutSwingin said:


> DAGuide said:
> 
> 
> > _It has nothing to do about ethics if it is upfront._
> ...


I'm pretty sure you misunderstood what DAGuide meant. He didn't say it was ethical BECAUSE they are up front. He meant that as long as they tell you of their pricing structure up front, there is nothing unethical about the practice. Sure somebody can be unethical AND up front at the same time, but that's irrelevant to this particular discussion.

This discussion has nothing to do with ethics. It's about pricing of goods and services. If the market doesn't like it, the printer will be out of business. That's like implying that Steak & Ale is acting unethically if they tell you they will have to charge you a premium to cook your Wal-Mart bought steak. That's just ridiculous.


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## Comin'OutSwingin (Oct 28, 2005)

rusty said:


> It may be a generalization, but I think it's accurate. And since this is a discussion board, I think everybody is entitled to discuss. Just as you are entitled to say my point is pointless .
> 
> 
> That's great that you've found a printer you like. How do you know he doesn't charge a premium for customer supplied shirts?


You can THINK it's accurate, but unless you KNOW the pricing structure of every successful print shop, you just can't know if you are accurate or not. To assume you do is quite arrogant, as it only takes 1 example to prove you wrong.

They are up front about the pricing structure. They will tell you that *"this"* is the price of the printing if you buy the shirts from us, and *"this"* is the price if you supply your own shirts. The price of the printing is the price of the printing.

All of the charges are clearly marked on the invoice, and they remain the same whether I give them boxes full of my shirts, or if I were to use their shirts.

They don't fiddle with the prices to make up for not using their shirts. The price is considerable less, when I supply the shirts. Simply, it is minus the markup for using their shirts.


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## DAGuide (Oct 2, 2006)

Not too be argumentative, but it was your quote that sounded like you were inferring that this method is wrong and should be changed. 



Comin'OutSwingin said:


> I just personally have a problem with the printing price not being definite. I happen to believe the printing price should be the printing price, regarless of whether the shirts are supplied by me or not.





Comin'OutSwingin said:


> If they want to make extra money on selling shirts, more power to them, but I don't think it's right to try to make extra money on the printing because you couldn't make it on the shirt, especially if it's not costing you anymore to print on my shirt than yours.




By openly stating that you don't think a person's pricing structure is right, are you not indirectly suggesting that their method is wrong and should be changed? I apologize if I misunderstood your statement, but that was my understanding.

As for your example about ambulance chasing attorneys (something close to my heart since I choose not to go that path), ethics are spelled out by the state bars. There are rules that every attorney that practices in that state must obey by or be subject to a penalty / punishment. These rules are become more spelled out over time because as more decisions as to what is ethical and not are decided, we began to shape the rule. So, ethics for attorneys are closer to rules than values or principles. 

Although I agree that people's opinion may vary on what is ethical or not, it is important to understand that ethics is the values or principles of a group of people over a time period. In this case, it has been a standard procedure and norm of the industry to charge more for when the garments are supplied. If you are lucky to find a printer who does not do this, be thankful. I am sure there is a decorator who believes that charging more than twice the cost of good manufacturer is unethical as well. (My sister was this way when I first brought her into the business). But we all do it because we want / need to stay in business.

Ultimately, we all have individual opinions and we are entitled to them. Individual opinions are very much different than ethics. We all also have the ability to spend our dollars in any manner we want and in business, that is the true power. Many years ago, my economics professor said "the true power of voting is in dollars. Every dollar is a vote." It was not till I was in business for myself did I truly understand his words. So, if any of us don't like the business practices of one company or another, give your votes to another company.

Again, not trying to be argumentative with anyone. I like a free-spirited debate and I think this string of post will be beneficial to others that read it later on.

Mark


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## Solmu (Aug 15, 2005)

237am said:


> is this standard practice?


Yes, hidden charges are extremely common in this industry.

Hidden charges range from shops not telling you their setup fees up front/hiding as much as they can that there will be screen charges on top of print costs, to moving around where the costs actually are so that prices look more attractive (so offsetting the print costs in the garment costs).

By "this industry" I mean the garment embellishing industry - it is by no means a problem exclusive to screenprinters (if anything it seems at its worst in the embroidery field).

It has been (somewhat controversially) discussed here before; personally I think it's an extremely dodgy practice, but most printers will defend it to the death.

Personally I feel if you quote a cost of printing, that should be the cost of printing. If you want to hide what goes where, charge an all in one cost - don't falsely break it down.

I'd also point out to all the defensive printers that _customers hate this practice._ Shouldn't that mean something? I think the very fact that printers get so irate about it suggests there's a problem here.


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## rusty (Feb 9, 2007)

Comin'OutSwingin said:


> You can THINK it's accurate, but unless you KNOW the pricing structure of every successful print shop, you just can't know if you are accurate or not. To assume you do is quite arrogant, as it only takes 1 example to prove you wrong.


True... true...



Comin'OutSwingin said:


> They are up front about the pricing structure. They will tell you that *"this"* is the price of the printing if you buy the shirts from us, and *"this"* is the price if you supply your own shirts. The price of the printing is the price of the printing.
> 
> All of the charges are clearly marked on the invoice, and they remain the same whether I give them boxes full of my shirts, or if I were to use their shirts.
> 
> They don't fiddle with the prices to make up for not using their shirts. The price is considerable less, when I supply the shirts. Simply, it is minus the markup for using their shirts.


I would venture to guess that their "printing charge" is higher than the average printer's printing charge, which is why they can afford to print on your shirts. And consequently they probably charge less markup on the shirts themselves. So they basically just make up for the profit loss by spreading the cost around equally over every printing charge, regardless of whether you or they supply the shirts.

Of course I'm just guessing because I don't know the pricing structure of every print shop .


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## rusty (Feb 9, 2007)

Solmu said:


> Personally I feel if you quote a cost of printing, that should be the cost of printing. If you want to hide what goes where, charge an all in one cost - don't falsely break it down.


This is how I give quotes, one price for everything. I do not break down between printing, shirts, setup, etc. In my opinion, that just confuses a lot of customers, and they just want to know what they have to pay for each shirt. When I give a quote, that's what they pay when the bill comes... no unexpected setup/screen/art charges. So when I add the premium in for customer supplied shirts, the customer doesn't really even know it. And even if they ask for quotes both way, they have no idea what I pay for my shirts, so they still don't know if or how much of a premium I'm charging. I just give them they 2 quotes if they ask for both and it's up to them to determine which is most cost effective.

I'm not sure if that's the type of practice you are saying customers hate. I didn't really understand which practice you were referring to. But I've never heard any negative comments about my pricing from my customers. I think they'd rather have 1 total price than a bunch of phony charges added together.


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## Comin'OutSwingin (Oct 28, 2005)

rusty said:


> I'm pretty sure you misunderstood what DAGuide meant. He didn't say it was ethical BECAUSE they are up front. He meant that as long as they tell you of their pricing structure up front, there is nothing unethical about the practice. Sure somebody can be unethical AND up front at the same time, but that's irrelevant to this particular discussion.
> 
> This discussion has nothing to do with ethics. It's about pricing of goods and services. If the market doesn't like it, the printer will be out of business. That's like implying that Steak & Ale is acting unethically if they tell you they will have to charge you a premium to cook your Wal-Mart bought steak. That's just ridiculous.


Yes, that is riduculous, but we aren't talking about buying steaks from wal-mart and taking them to your local steakhouse to get cooked.

But if we were I would have a problem with:
Our steak: *$25.*
Bring your steak and let us cook it: *$25.*

Just like I can see how someone would have a problem with a printer saying:
Total price for printing on our dozen shirts: *$80*
Total price for printing on the dozen shirts that you got from the same place we got ours:*$80

*But like I said, he wasn't the only that said something to that affect, and he wasn't the only one I was addressing. Others made similar statements.



neato said:


> It isn't unethical unless the printer lies about it.





rusty said:


> The only way it's unethical is if they lie to you about the pricing.


So contrary to what you may think, the discussion is very much about ethics. As ethics was brought up early in the thread by a printer of all people that happened to believe the practice is unethical.



howszful said:


> We didn't charge a higher rate for printing due to a client bringing in their own shirts. It couldn't be justified ethically.


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## Solmu (Aug 15, 2005)

rusty said:


> This is how I give quotes, one price for everything.


Then I give you a clean bill of ethical health 

Joking aside, the problem I have (and I'm guessing most others have) is that printers will tell you: Printing cost per shirt: $X.. and that is a 100% outright lie. It's just an arbitrary portion of the total cost, assigned to one of the many variables. It's not actually a printing cost at all, _and yet it is labelled as one_.



rusty said:


> I'm not sure if that's the type of practice you are saying customers hate. I didn't really understand which practice you were referring to.


No, not that one (I can see how that was a little ambiguous; the "this practice" I was referring to is the practice being discussed in the thread as a whole, not the last thing I mentioned in the post).

Some customers like to know where their money is going specifically, some don't care - either way, not a big deal. The practice people hate is lying. If you tell someone "This order you requested a quote on will cost you $500" there is no lie.


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## Comin'OutSwingin (Oct 28, 2005)

DAGuide said:


> Not too be argumentative, but it was your quote that sounded like you were inferring that this method is wrong and should be changed.
> 
> 
> By openly stating that you don't think a person's pricing structure is right, are you not indirectly suggesting that their method is wrong and should be changed? I apologize if I misunderstood your statement, but that was my understanding.
> ...


Mark, I too enjoy a good free-spirited debate.

Yes, I did say that I don't think it's right. But it's not my place to say that they should change it, just because I disagree with it. I just go to another printer that doesn't have that practice. I give my vote to someone else.

As for ambulance chasing, yes there are rules and laws governing such things. But those things became rules and laws because it was first deemed unethical to do so. It was legal before they made laws saying you couldn't do it, but it didn't make it ethical, though did it?

Also, I really don't care what the "norm" for the industry is. Just because the vast majority of the printers share the same practices, doesn't make it right.


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## rejoice (Jun 7, 2007)

The company is entitled to charge as they wish to. Personally I like to use the same company to supply and print the tees. If they have different pricing structures for different customers, I don't want to know about them until I become that different customer.

My supplier has a pricelist for tees and a pricelist for screenprinting (didn't have the setup costs added there). I did the calculations and when I requested the order, turns out it came out cheaper than I expected (even after they included setup costs).

If I rang them and said I have this many shirts and want to print on them, they could send me the same price list or a completely different one. That's their perogative as a company, and if I don't like the price I can go elsewhere. So I don't really understand the fuss.


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## Solmu (Aug 15, 2005)

rejoice said:


> I don't really understand the fuss.


Hypothetical scenario:

I get a quote from a printer, and it breaks down thus:

T-shirts: $8ea
Printing: $5ea
Misc. setups, materials, etc.: $100

"Hmm." thinks I, "I can get the same shirts they're charging me $8 for for $4, so there's no point having them supply them. I'll just bring them in myself."

I do so.

"Oh no!" says Mr. Printer. "I won't be charging you $5 to print that shirt, even though the only thing that has changed is you brought them to my shop instead of the courier. Now it costs $9 a shirt to print."

In that case the original quote should have broke down thus:

T-shirts: $4ea
Printing: $9ea
Misc setups, materials, etc.: $100

...and we never would have had this problem. The charge listed next to printing in the first quote simply _isn't_ a printing charge.


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## Binary01 (Jun 2, 2007)

the fuss is that i already have at least 30 screens done and cant afford to have new ones made at another print shop.....

i have a small wholesale order and based my prices off the prices for printing based off my previous orders...

so if the prices are higher i might have to eat the costs since the retail store already has my price list.......

the printer didnt tell me that there was a different rate until 5 days after i told him i need a price list just to print........

so, this is why the post came up...... different rates for the same job...wtf


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## monkeylantern (Oct 16, 2005)

I suspect precise information about the pricing was available prior to you spending a cent.....you can only blame yourself if you're unaware.

A differential between customer shirts/supplied shirts is *totally* standard and not unusual in any way. Those who don't do this are the exception.


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## Binary01 (Jun 2, 2007)

i didnt think there should have been a difference in pricing for printing 


but now i know and i think i have a firm stand on my belief of price gouging....

if they dont want to work with me then i'll take my business elsewhere..... but i'll let them give me the numbers first and compare them with a few other shops.....

but like i said before.... if i leave, i'll be screwed out of the screen costs....


b


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## monkeylantern (Oct 16, 2005)

237am said:


> but like i said before.... if i leave, i'll be screwed out of the screen costs....


I understand it must be irritating....but you're not "being screwed".

You gave a quote when you hadn't checked the prices for a different service you've never used before.

It's like bundled internet and phone plans..... it's cheaper together because the business can split their required profit over two services.

And, I'm sure like your screenprinter, this information is fully disclosed if you'd asked.

Which you should have, before quoting your own customer.


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## Binary01 (Jun 2, 2007)

i guess it's my fault then....hmmmm.......

i'll find out tomorrow and go from there.... but if the prices are different, believe me i will have a talk and possibly look for another place....

case in point

end of thread


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## rusty (Feb 9, 2007)

Comin'OutSwingin said:


> Just like I can see how someone would have a problem with a printer saying:
> Total price for printing on our dozen shirts: *$80*
> Total price for printing on the dozen shirts that you got from the same place we got ours:*$80*


If that's what we are discussing here, then I've been mistaken. I don't think ANY screenprinter would charge somebody the same price for both (I know... I know... another generalization). I thought we were just talking about charging a higher rate for printing if you supplied the shirts. There's a big difference in that and what you are suggesting.



Comin'OutSwingin said:


> So contrary to what you may think, the discussion is very much about ethics. As ethics was brought up early in the thread by a printer of all people that happened to believe the practice is unethical.


It's irrelevant who brought up ethics or when they brought it up. This is not an issue of ethics.

I may think it's unethical for somebody to be making ridiculous statements on a discussion board... but it's not ... no matter how early I brought it up or how many others agreed with me.


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## rusty (Feb 9, 2007)

Solmu said:


> I get a quote from a printer, and it breaks down thus:
> 
> T-shirts: $8ea
> Printing: $5ea
> ...


Yes, I agree with you completely. That would be a very deceptive practice.


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## rusty (Feb 9, 2007)

237am said:


> but like i said before.... if i leave, i'll be screwed out of the screen costs....


If you've had shirts printed on those screens, then you should not be screwed out of anything. I would assume the original quote when the screens were made was for the original quantity ordered. I may be wrong, but that price is not usually guaranteed for future reorders. I know I never guarantee anybody that I will keep their screens for future orders. If I did, I have a garage full of customer's screens waiting for the "promised re-order" that I could never use again. A $25 screen fee does not reserve that screen for the rest of your life. It's usually just for the job quoted. Now if he gave you some kind of guarantee that he would keep all your screens for you indefinitely, then that's a very unusually generous thing for him to do.

Of course, if I happen to still have the screens when somebody wants to re-order, then sure, I'll usually charge the same per shirt as the original order. But if I've had to re-claim and re-use their screens on another job, they will get a quote as if it were a new order and needed new screens.


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## Binary01 (Jun 2, 2007)

i already had a reorder for those screens so i know they are stocking them somewhere......

i just need to keep my costs down so i can push my gear into the stores...if i have a high wholesale due to printing costs then i wont be able to sell..... hence my concern....whether it's right/wrong/etc..........


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## rusty (Feb 9, 2007)

237am said:


> i already had a reorder for those screens so i know they are stocking them somewhere......
> 
> i just need to keep my costs down so i can push my gear into the stores...if i have a high wholesale due to printing costs then i wont be able to sell..... hence my concern....whether it's right/wrong/etc..........


Yes, generally screenprinters will rotate their screens. So under normal conditions your screens would be available IF you re-order before your screens come up in their rotation again. So while they may still have those specific screens, you cannot count on them reserving all 30 of your screens for you indefinitely. They would go out of business if they did that for everybody.

And even if you were able to purchase the actual screens from them, the next printer you take them to might charge you a premium to print with your screens .


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## Binary01 (Jun 2, 2007)

seems like i get charged for everything/something/ and nothing.....

i just need to open up a spot and call it a day

b


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## howszful (Jul 1, 2007)

As my business professor used to say, "The customer is not always right, but the customer is the customer and is free to take his money and spend it elsewhere."

Not that I am saying you are wrong 237am, on the contrary, I am just saying you have options. None of which may seem particularly pleasant to you right now...you just have to make the choice that makes you the least angry/disappointed/frustrated/disillusioned or whatever adjective best describes how you feel right now.


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## neato (Mar 21, 2006)

Yes, sorry to hear about your frustrations. 

And maybe the way the whole industry does things is wrong. I can defenitely see your point.

This is why the retail t-shirt business is tougher than many think when they jump in. It's VERY difficult to start out in this business. When you're only ordering small quantities of shirts, they're expensive! You aren't going to be able to charge a ton for them either since you're a new brand. 

It's a big risk. You have to go into this looking way ahead, not just at what's right in front of you.

But I say in the meantime, do some research on other printers. There are definitely other options out there. You'd be better off finding a printer that is willing to offer you contract terms, you buy the shirts, they print and ONLY charge for the print. 

Good luck.


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## perrolocodesigns (Oct 24, 2006)

> It's not backward at all, though. If you are charging less to print on shirts you sell, then you ARE charging more to prints shirts you don't. That's why you said it yourself. It just makes sense.


Greg you are missing the point. My regular printing price is reduced when I sell the shirts. I don't bump my regular price for customers who bring in their own shirts.



> I just personally have a problem with the printing price not being definite. I happen to believe the printing price should be the printing price, regarless of whether the shirts are supplied by me or not.


If printers did that, which price do you think they would choose to charge everyone? The higher price or the lower price?


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## Comin'OutSwingin (Oct 28, 2005)

perrolocodesigns said:


> Greg you are missing the point. My regular printing price is reduced when I sell the shirts. I don't bump my regular price for customers who bring in their own shirts.


No, I'm not. Just because you say the "regular" printing price is one thing, and the "reduced" price is something else, the bottom line is the same.

It's just like the example Lewis gave.

Here is my price for *printing* when you buy my shirt.

Here is the price for *printing* when you bring your own shirt.

If the price for printing is "reduced" for buying your shirt, then you obviously are charging MORE for *printing* on supplied shirts.

You're just choosing to say that the regular price is the higher one, rather than the lower one so you can say printing is discounted for buying your shirts rather than saying you charge more for printing on customer supplied shirts.

Again, the fact remains that a person that supplies the shirts *pays more for printing* than a person that buys your shirts. *That's the point.*


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## perrolocodesigns (Oct 24, 2006)

Well Greg you have convinced me. I'm now going to charge everybody the same higher price just so I can say I don't give a discount to those who buy their shirts from me. I'll not be changing the markup on my shirts, so I should be able to make even more money off the poor, downtrodden masses of aspiring designers. 

(insert capitalist pig comment here)

In a related business change, anyone who promises me an order of 1500 shirts will get 1500 piece pricing on their initial order of 8 pieces. 

(insert sarcastic bastard comment here)

Greg, I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. No hard feelings.


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## Comin'OutSwingin (Oct 28, 2005)

I don't care that you charge your customers differently. I'm just saying call it what it is. 

If you charge $5 for the *printing* on shirts the customer buys from you and charge $7 for the *printing* on shirts they bring in, that's your business.

But it's obvious that the regular price for printing on shirts you sell is less than the regular price for printing on shirts the customer brings to you.

If that's what you want to do, that's your business. But for you to say, "No, I don't charge MORE for printing on customer supplied shirts, I just don't charge as much for printing on shirts they buy from me.", seems like you just don't want to admit that you are charging more.

It is what it is. If it costs the customer more money for the printing if they bring in their shirts, face it, and just say it. Don't play word games.

Paying $7 for printing is paying more than $5 for printing. If you can't see that, yeah, we just need to agree to disagree...


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## Fluid (Jun 20, 2005)

237am said:


> the fuss is that i already have at least 30 screens done and cant afford to have new ones made at another print shop.....
> i have a small wholesale order and based my prices off the prices for printing based off my previous orders...


#1
Your screens were prepped yet like most and I would venture to say more than 75% of the printers today do not save screens for all clients. If you are ordering the same job once a week I can see the screens being saved. Anything over a week they will be reclaimed and put back into rotation.

The size warehouse one would need to store screens would be way too big. I reclaim 20-30 screens daily and this practice would put me out of business in rent alone.
#2
Why not, if your basing the pricing off the previous order the screen charges would be included in this order. We actually charge less for screens on contract reorders. With us you would be making more money on the reorders if pricing based on the previous order. Also unless the new order was an exact repeat order you cannot base pricing this way as it will always change.



> the printer didnt tell me that there was a different rate until 5 days after i told him i need a price list just to print........


Here in lies the issue. Your current printer is taking you for a ride, unfortunately. Raising prices due to loss of revenue on your orders. This happens a lot in the industry - I hear it from others all the time. Many printers will take on orders based on a certain price. After printing the order they realize they lost money due to the amount of work, consumables and time involved in printing the order so they change they pricing rather than figuring out where the real issue is and usually it is in production.

I don't think the practices of how printers charge is really the issue from your original post yet the way your particular printer chose to deal with you and your pricing. Definently find a new printer. Yes you may not make any money on the first order yet in the long run it will probably be best. If you sit with a new printer and show your invoices and discuss what happened in the past. You never know, the new printer may work with you on set up charges.

I also believe the differences between Contract and Customer supplied goods has been intertwined. 

Contract clients are client who regularly bring orders to a printer and supply their own goods. Prices are set and never change accept the normal % yearly due to increasing material costs

Customer supplied goods - clients are those who are usually one time clients trying to get the best from a printer. This is where the lost profit comes into play and usually these clients orders are really small. If charges normal pricing the printer would most likely break even or have minimal profit. We are here to make money and to do a job that makes $20 is not worth printing as that effort could be put to better use elsewhere which more than likely if used properly would bring in more money.

Also I do the small order as well as the large. I will print one (1) shirt (pricing starts at a quantity of 1 garment) if asked - just remember you will be charged plenty


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## Comin'OutSwingin (Oct 28, 2005)

Fluid said:


> #1
> 
> I also believe the differences between Contract and Customer supplied goods has been intertwined.


Good point, Richard.

There are printers that don't have contract pricing, because they want to make the same amount from the job, whether they supply the shirts or the contract customer.

237am find yourself a printer with contract pricing that doesn't charge their customers extra on the printing for bringing their own shirts.

They are out there!


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## mizi117 (Mar 12, 2007)

in my country...quality come first before the price.So now body care about the price when you have good quality printing


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## Fluid (Jun 20, 2005)

Comin'OutSwingin said:


> There are printers that don't have contract pricing, because they want to make the same amount from the job, whether they supply the shirts or the contract customer.


By not charging different pricing I can bet the contract side of the business does not compare to the custom, for most. Contract and Custom printing are actually two different ball games. There have been many articles in the Industry magazines on this subject and it is a tough part to stay in as the money is low thus a streamlined production is necessary. Orders need to be in and out as fast as possible without compromising quality. 

We charge less (around 1/2) for contract clients than our normal (custom) clients. My contract clients consist of other print shops, embroiderers and advertising specialty companies who are selling to business, schools, organizations, etc. We make our money on their repeat orders.

With everything being 1/2 my contract clients can sell for the same as I without causing issues with bidding wars or stolen clients due to cheaper pricing. They can mark up to what ever they wish, IMO



Comin'OutSwingin said:


> 237am find yourself a printer with contract pricing that doesn't charge their customers extra on the printing for bringing their own shirts.
> They are out there!


They are out there for sure 


mizi117 said:


> in my country...quality come first before the price.So now body care about the price when you have good quality printing


Unfortunately most here say quality is the main factor yet it always seems like price overrides quality. One reason why I offer contract printing and have a good foothold in niche market. Out of state sales is also a big one for us, as we are not involved in the local price wars


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## Solmu (Aug 15, 2005)

Fluid said:


> Unfortunately most here say quality is the main factor yet it always seems like price overrides quality.


I definitely agree (except I'd go so far as to say damn near _everyone_ says quality is the main factor; the honest businessmen who says 'I care only about the bottom line' is very rare). It's sad to watch people emphasise quality is their concern, then back-pedal to redefine what quality means when they hear the cost.


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## Ujudgnme2 (Mar 28, 2006)

My guy charges me $1.50 per color (depending on the quantity) if I bring in my own tees. It all comes out the same. For me, I make more money if I suppply the tees for my customers, but I tell them it will not save them any money if they buy them because they are not buying wholesale. I have had a few think they were going to save money but each time, they end up letting me supply the tees.

If you are printing various colors, this changes things. I hate paying for various colors for scre....printing...too expensive.

I have purchased my own screen from the printer and from a screener. I found purchasing "new" screens from a screen shop to be a good idea. My printer sells me used crap but he will cut off the cost if I am bringing my own screens. 



237am said:


> i still think it's b.s. if they are gonna give me different rates after the fact....
> 
> i was running this setup
> 1 color back/2 color front/1 color inside tag
> ...


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## Flannigans (Jul 8, 2007)

God Bless that printer. We have to make money some how.


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