# Waterbased Prints on Darks - photo inside!



## neato (Mar 21, 2006)

I promised a couple people I would post this.

This is a print using Matsui brand opaque inks. Printed through 158 mesh screens, print/flash/print.

Stretches like plastisol.

Sorry it's not the best pic. It's much brighter in person...


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## buck8 (Jun 13, 2007)

*Re: Waterbased Prints on Darks*

Phillip - 

love yer work.
how much working time do you have (average conditions considered...) with waterbased ink? The 'stay wet' property of Plastisol is such a great selling point...but I would really like my shop to be waterbased...


PS- on yer attached graphic - how do you achieve the 'type curved down' on the type on top and the 'type curved up' on the type on bottom of the recycle icon. I use AI - text warp tool with 2 different circle shapes? dunno

thx.


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## Fluid (Jun 20, 2005)

*Re: Waterbased Prints on Darks*

You mention print flash print method. Is that for the underbase white?
Also how does the hand of the print feel with the print flash print method used? Is it still really soft? Stretches like plasticol - how does this effect the hand?


btw- Print looks good.


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## neato (Mar 21, 2006)

*Re: Waterbased Prints on Darks*

No underbase on these.

I p/f/p each color. But I think you could print all 3, flash, print all 3. I'm still experimenting.

The hand is not super soft like on lights. It feels like plastisol, but not quite as thick. 

And Buck, for the text I just use the 'Fit Text to Path' tool in Corel.


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## Fluid (Jun 20, 2005)

*Re: Waterbased Prints on Darks*

couldnt you have printed a white underbase using the white plate and not needed to print flash print all three colors? Im just looking at this on the production end.


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## Rodney (Nov 3, 2004)

*Re: Waterbased Prints on Darks*



neato said:


> No underbase on these.
> 
> I p/f/p each color. But I think you could print all 3, flash, print all 3. I'm still experimenting.
> 
> ...


Does the hand soften up after the wash like the fashion soft inks?

Thanks for posting the pic. It looks great!


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## jundogg (Jul 20, 2007)

nice work! awesome


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## neato (Mar 21, 2006)

*Re: Waterbased Prints on Darks*



Fluid said:


> couldnt you have printed a white underbase using the white plate and not needed to print flash print all three colors? Im just looking at this on the production end.


You can do that. But it requires another screen. To print a white underbase with these inks, you have to put a clear paste on top of the white, then print the colors wet on wet. 

So either way, it's not very production friendly. I'm still working on that part. But there are some big companies using this stuff for some very large accounts. So there must be some tricks to it.


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## neato (Mar 21, 2006)

*Re: Waterbased Prints on Darks*



Rodney said:


> Does the hand soften up after the wash like the fashion soft inks?
> 
> Thanks for posting the pic. It looks great!


Yes, the hand softens a little, but it still has a defenite hand. It's not quite as thick as printing plastisol on darks, but still a lot more hand than discharge.


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## Fluid (Jun 20, 2005)

*Re: Waterbased Prints on Darks*



neato said:


> You can do that. But it requires another screen. To print a white underbase with these inks, you have to put a clear paste on top of the white, then print the colors wet on wet.
> 
> So either way, it's not very production friendly. I'm still working on that part. But there are some big companies using this stuff for some very large accounts. So there must be some tricks to it.


Oh what a pita. I'm starting to see more drawbacks to waterbased than I had initially realized. Glad I use plasticols


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## buck8 (Jun 13, 2007)

what's the workin' time on the waterbased? Especially with fine line work?


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## neato (Mar 21, 2006)

buck8 said:


> what's the workin' time on the waterbased? Especially with fine line work?



Workin' time? Waddya mean?


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## buck8 (Jun 13, 2007)

I'm assuming waterbased inks start to air cure after a bit due to evaporation; Plastisol stays wet until heat cured. Do waterbased inks have the same properties?


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## dfalk (Apr 11, 2007)

buck8 said:


> I'm assuming waterbased inks start to air cure after a bit due to evaporation; Plastisol stays wet until heat cured. Do waterbased inks have the same properties?


I use water based inks and your question depends on a couple different factors including ambient temperature, humidity, mesh size, stencil size and if your using additives such as a catalyst or a reducer. 
Where I am it is very dry and hot. I do not use a catalyst and I always flood the screen after every pass on a 156 - 195 screen. I will start having ink dry in my screen if I leave it sit for more than 10 - 15 minutes. I have to always spray a little mist of water using a water bottle over the ink to keep it moist. 
This weekend I just started printing with the Union Plasticharge system which is a discharge system that kind of turns plastisol into a water based ink. Awesome! I am getting the same soft hand as I get with water based but I am not having to worry about any of the little quirks that water based inks come with.


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## neato (Mar 21, 2006)

Man, you need to try the Matsui inks. 

I left my screens for 2 hours the other day and they printed great on the first pull!

I also left an ink knife covered for a couple days, it was still wet.


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## dfalk (Apr 11, 2007)

I have heard good things about Matsui but have never used their products. I have been using Pavonine and Union which have worked out pretty well.
I would love to be able to leave our water based inks out for 2 hours but here where it is 100+ degrees outside and what seems to be 110+ degrees in the shop with the dry air, our inks dry up in no time. I have noticed that when I run fans the inks dry up even faster so we have to deal with the heat inside, horrible!


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## amazingshubi (Sep 3, 2007)

Hello,
All of my experience printing has been with plastisol. Do you know of any resources that would teach all about using waterbase ink and all the quirks I have heard about?
Thanks,
Jeff Joyce


neato said:


> I promised a couple people I would post this.
> 
> This is a print using Matsui brand opaque inks. Printed through 158 mesh screens, print/flash/print.
> 
> ...


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## dfalk (Apr 11, 2007)

amazingshubi said:


> Hello,
> All of my experience printing has been with plastisol. Do you know of any resources that would teach all about using waterbase ink and all the quirks I have heard about?
> Thanks,
> Jeff Joyce


There is a ton of information about the use of water based inks on this forum. Just search water based inks. Your best resource would be to contact the sales reps at Matsui, Union, Pavonine, etc. and request info. They are a wealth of info and should be able to help you as well. Good luck.


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## neato (Mar 21, 2006)

dfalk said:


> There is a ton of information about the use of water based inks on this forum. Just search water based inks. Your best resource would be to contact the sales reps at Matsui, Union, Pavonine, etc. and request info. They are a wealth of info and should be able to help you as well. Good luck.


Yep. Search the forums. There isn't much written about WB printing for some reason. You just have to experiment A LOT! We still are.


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## amazingshubi (Sep 3, 2007)

Thanks Derek.


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## amazingshubi (Sep 3, 2007)

Thanks to you also Phillip.


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## tpitman (Jul 30, 2007)

Phillip, I believe I spoke with Matsui reps at the ISS show in Orlando, and they did say that the inks stayed open longer than regular waterbased inks, so it's nice to hear from someone using them who confirms that. Where do you order yours from?


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## neato (Mar 21, 2006)

I order mine from Westix in California. It's a long ways from me, but the guys there are VERY helpful and friendly. They are also working very closely with Matsui and so are knowledgeable about the product.


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## corradomatt (Jan 16, 2007)

Hey guys. Matsui's inks are truly amazing! We have customers who use their 301 RC series and they never have problems with the ink drying in the screen. They have even walked away from their presses for about an hour! When they come back they just start printing again! Absolutely no screen clogging!

We recently learned that one of our customers is air drying these inks! We don't recommend doing this, but our customer has had good results. I don't recommend it because I don't think that the ink would hold up to normal washings but we don't know for sure.


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## neato (Mar 21, 2006)

Hey Matt! 

Good to see you here.


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## MANNYMARISCAL (Dec 5, 2006)

where can you purchase Matsui's inks?


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## dfalk (Apr 11, 2007)

MANNYMARISCAL said:


> where can you purchase Matsui's inks?


 
Here is a link to all their distributors. 
http://www.matsui-color.com/distributors.php


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## tpitman (Jul 30, 2007)

Phillip, how's the finish on the inks, especially on the dark shirt prints? Are the Matsui opaque inks matte when cured as opposed to the shiny finish plastisols tend towards, especially on large areas of spot color and as the curing temperature goes up? Also, do the Matsui inks cure, or dry fairly quickly like plastisols, or do they require the longer cure times typical with waterbased inks by other manufacturers? Thanks.


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## splathead (Dec 4, 2005)

Phillip,

Do you use a different emulsion on your screens for water based printing vs. plastisol?


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## dfalk (Apr 11, 2007)

splathead said:


> Phillip,
> 
> Do you use a different emulsion on your screens for water based printing vs. plastisol?


 
I know that you where asking Philip but I just saw it pop up so I thought I would help you out real quick. 

You do need an emulsion that is used for water based inks. If you use an emulsion used for plastisol, the water used in the water based inks will break your emulsion down rather quickly. 
I used to use Ulano TZ and it works well, but since I do a lot of discharge printing I switched to Ulano QT which works excellent for discharging or printing with regular water based inks. It dries quickly and exposes very fast. 
Good luck.


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## mfg84 (Aug 21, 2007)

That photo looks great. Have you ever heard of anyone doing transfer printing with Matsui or Pavonine ink?


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