# What kind of detail can I expect from an Epson 4800 and saw grass inks?



## gothicaleigh (Jun 16, 2007)

I'm looking at purchasing an Epson 4800 Hybrid to take care of my sublimation and transfer printing. I'm new to sublimation and am wondering what kind of detail is possible (doing an image search with google, much of what I see is washed out/ bleeding and not very sharp; Is this common with textile sublimation?).

The Epson does great detail when set up as a print/photo printer, but I am wondering if it is worth the large jump in price over a C88+ for sublimation...
Would I be better off cheapening out for a C88 for sublimation and a decent quality inkjet for transfers?

Here's what I am looking at (just in case any of you may know a better Epson dealer or have had experience purchasing from here): Epson 4800 Hybrid Dual Decorating System

I really like the idea of the 4800 Hybrid, and love the quality I have seen from a 4800 doing photo prints, but wonder if it may be overkill if the detail washes out during sublimation...






Anyone have good examples of sublimation detail that I can see? Maybe that will help make my decision (even better if any of you have an Epson 4800 Hybrid that I can see results from).


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## DAGuide (Oct 2, 2006)

Sublimation, when done properly to the right substrate, is the longest lasting decorating technique in the market. It should not wash out unless it is done on a cotton shirt or a non-polyester substrate.

As far as the detail, it depends on how good your graphic is (i.e. garbage in = garbage out), the application process (time, temperature and pressure) and your profiles. There are several different hybrid sublimation systems that are out there. The Sawgrass hybrid limits to use their two sets of ink (SubliJet IQ and ChromaBlast) and don't necessarily use ICC profiles for the different substrates. 

The other RIP softwares allow you to use other types of inks depending on if you want to do other applications (i.e. film positives, dark garment decorating,...) and offer you the ability to use ICC profiles to get better prints. 

Here are some of the questions that I would ask when looking at a hybrid.
1. What inks can I use? Sublijet IQ vs ArTainium or either one? ChromaBlast vs. other Heat Transfer Ink,...?
2. What type of application does the hybrid printing software allow me to print? Sublimation? Heat Transfer on Lights vs. Heat Transfers on Dark or both? Film Positives?....
3. Does the software use color pre-sets or does it use specific ICC profiles for the different substrates (i.e. polyester fabric, tile, metal,...)? If it uses ICC profiles, do the profiles come with the software or do you have to make them or get them from someone else?
4. How many computers can you put the hybrid printing software on and run it at the same time? Does it use a dongle (which limits it to one computer at time)?
5. If I have problems, what support is available to me? The distributor on phone? Online support?

Just to show you what the colors can look like from a hybrid, here is a picture on FRP plastic of a profile set (1 of 12 that are needed to create a profile at one resolution).







http://www.multirip.com/images/profile.jpg

Below is a list of some of the other companies that sell a different version of the hybrid that you are looking at.

The Paper Ranch (OK) - 877-777-2624 http://www.thepaperranch.com/shopexd.asp?id=734
TR Distributors (MN) - 800-905-0351 http://www.trdistributors.net/fasttjetpdf/HybridHandout.pdf
Conde Systems (AL) - 800-826-6332 DyeTrans™ 4800 ArTainium™ Sublimation Systems
Johnson Plastics (all over) 800-869-7800 Johnson Plastics Home Page
Lawson Screen Products (MO) 314-382-9300 Screen Printing Equipment, Screen Printing Supplies, Sublimation and Direct-to-Garment Printing by LAWSON

Hope this helps.

Mark


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## imeccentric (May 13, 2007)

I have the 4800 with artainium and chromoblast. I use a rip to manage colors and it is pretty simple to use. Some here don't like the chromoblast, but I haven't had any trouble with it. My colors are vibrant, don't wash out, and I'm not afraid to print text without a box around it. I will say that mine look a whole lot better than what I've seen demonstrated at the shows. That just comes from them being salespeople with no real experience. On the downside, there isn't much experience with these dual hybrids and you won't get the same answer from any two people or companies. As an example of that there is another post about scorching at 400 degrees for 40 seconds. I press mine at 400 degrees for 45 seconds and heavy pressure with excellent results. Sublimation is always better, but I have no complaints about either. As for the cost,it's mainly up to what size you need to print. The 4800 does print on roll paper if you REALLY need large designs and is a true production printer that takes up LOTS of space. A decent rip isn't cheap either and you should have a way to calibrate your monitor with the software(actually that is the cheap part). Support from sawgrass or my dealer has been minimal, so be careful there. Promises are easy to make. Good luck on your decision. I've been there and done that part of it already

Jim
Embellishments in Thread


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## gothicaleigh (Jun 16, 2007)

I think I may be leaning towards a 7800 as it would complement my 24" GX-24 cutter much better. Is it possible to Hybrid the 7800? Say, Sawgrass ArTanium inks on one side and something similar to K3 on the other?

I'm not really interested in printed tranfers... I do not like the quality and would rather layer Thermoflex when doing dark T's. I would however like to make art prints and print to sign vinyls yet still be able to sublimate.

Am I asking too much from 1 printer?
Is the 4800 Hybrid mechanically different from the standard 4800 or is there special software required to get it to print from only one side of inks at a time? If it's just software controlled, can the same be used with a 7800?


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## DAGuide (Oct 2, 2006)

gothicaleigh,

You have the ability make a 7800 printer a hybrid using a special RIP printing software. MultiRIP already has a 7800 hybrid version on the market that allows you to print sublimation ink on one side and a multi-purpose ink on the other side. It is a different software to run a 4800 compared to a 7800 because they use different coding. So, you can't use the same one. 

The multi-purpose ink can be used to print photographs, but the ink does not have the archival features that you may want if you are trying to make giclee prints using Epson K3 Ultra Chrome inks. You still might be able to get great prints using the K3 inks with the profiles included, but it is not something that can be guaranteed. The available profiles that are in the market are all set for 8 colors, so they will not work as well since you will have sublimation ink in 4 channels. It probably would require a new profile - which is not out of the question. Would need to know exactly what type of media you want to use and the ink in order to make the colors as best as possible.

As for printing on to vinyl, most of this is done using a solvent or mild-solvent ink. This inks are harsher on the internal components of a printer. So, most of these printers have modified printheads and lines that will be able to tolerate or last longer than a traditional Epson printer. So, it is not recommended to solvent or mild solvent ink through a printer that you paid around $3000.00 for.

I hope I answered all your questions. If not, feel free to PM me. Best wishes.

Mark


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## gothicaleigh (Jun 16, 2007)

Thanks for the information.

I ended up going with a 7800 professional for graphic prints and a C88+ to play with sublimation before investing a ton of money into it. Colorburst RIP came with the 7800.

Unfortunately, the 7800 lost it's stand in shipping and I forgot to order sub-paper for the C88+ (somehow remembered to order an Artanium ink set though), so I'm sitting here trying not to think about my new toys.


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## DAGuide (Oct 2, 2006)

Sorry to hear about the lost stand and lack of paper. I think you did a pretty smart thing. You can get your feet wet doing dye sub and always have the ability to convert the 7800 to a hybrid if you want. Hopefully, your things can get your missing items and begin the fun. Best wishes.

Mark


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## SomeSailor (Jun 29, 2007)

gothicaleigh said:


> Is the 4800 Hybrid mechanically different from the standard 4800 or is there special software required to get it to print from only one side of inks at a time?


There is nothing mechanically different. The difference is in the software. Two additional printer drivers are installed after you install the printer (one for SubliJet and the other for ChromaJet inks. You then just load the inks and off ya go. SubliJet on the left and ChromaJet on the right.

I've had mine for a week or so now and LOVE IT!


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## DAGuide (Oct 2, 2006)

Maybe I was not clear in my statement. Mechanically, there is a big difference between the 1280 and the 4800. Look at the difference in the printhead size, the lines, running from cartridges versus a bulk feed system and several other things (auto cleanings, rull feed, print size,...). Obvisously, the software that runs the hybrid is much different than what the 1280 runs because it needs to only pull the 4 channels of ink that you want to print. Either way, hybrids are a great thing!


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## SomeSailor (Jun 29, 2007)

DAGuide said:


> Maybe I was not clear in my statement. Mechanically, there is a big difference between the 1280 and the 4800.


I agree... but you asked:



> Is the 4800 Hybrid mechanically different from the standard 4800


... and no they are not.

Reason I responded is I had that very question before buying mine. Had I known, I could've saved a few bucks by purchasing the printer myself and the inks separately. Great printer though and really have enjoyed everything about it so far.


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## gothicaleigh (Jun 16, 2007)

Finally had some time to use my C88+ today. I bought a yard of a 100% polyester fabric with a weave and weight similar to what is used for T's. Using the ArTanium ink, I printed off four various postcard size designs on a sheet of TruePix sub paper, cut them apart and pressed two of them at 400 degrees using medium pressure and two at 400 degrees using medium-high pressure. 

Unfortunately, the images aren't as clear as I was hoping for... so I'm wondering if maybe I'm doing something wrong...

The colors don't fade or transition well and tend to be murky in the darker shades. The paper has a ghost image on it that besides being washed out, has perfect detail and color transition. I realize that there is going to be some detail loss due to the fabric texture, but being as picky as I am, I am wondering if there is something that can be done to sharpen things up.

So... a few questions (again  ):

-Is there a correct side to the TruePix paper, and how can you tell which is which? (it looks like the inks subbed into the paper and I was under the impression that there was a layer that carried the ink, so I would expect there not to be much ink left on the paper after sublimation. So maybe I printed on the wrong side... I think... maybe?  )

-I know everyone always has personal favorites for brands, but is there a paper or ink that is _dramatically_ better than what I am using for dye sub?

-Any opinions on press settings? Am I far off using 400 degrees and medium-high pressure?

-Does dye sub have difficulties printing dark transitions or details? (I ask because two of the images I used are fairly dark)



The images I used are admittedly sized small at 3"x5", so maybe I will get better results if I print them out larger and spread the detail over more fibers... 

Sorry to ramble on. Any and all advice is appreiated.


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## PrintMonkey (Jul 15, 2006)

How long to you press the images? 
For fabrics 45 to 60 seconds.
Did you get and install the Artanium ink color profiles for the C88?
Does the paper have a brighter or texture side?

When things are right you will get great detail.

Get more info here.
dyesub.org

M


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## DAGuide (Oct 2, 2006)

Here are a couple of things to think about:

1. Are you using the profiles for ArTainium? If so, see if there is a specific profile for polyester. MultiRIP has a two profiles for fabric - one for graphics (clipart) and one for photographs (skin tones).

2. The murky colors in the darker areas usually means you are dropping too much ink. Since you are not running a RIP (which has ink controls), see if you can adjust the colors in the graphics to make the print better.

3. Not trying to be rude, but understand that you are working with a $70 - $80 home printer. The C-88 has some limitations. If you get a chance to go to someone else's shop or even a trade show, bring the same graphic and the same type fabric and run a print to compare them. The same C-88 printer could be used to print photographs, but you don't see photo places using it. You will get better qualtity with a better printer.

I will call your distributor to ask them which side to print on. The TexPrint XP paper I use has a watermark on one side, so it is real easy for me to tell. The two main inks in the market (SubliJet IQ and ArTainium) are basically the same. They are not interchangable, but the average customer would not notice the difference. Here are my settings for time (45 seconds), temperature (390 F) and pressure (medium - not heavy as it will blow throw to the back). But every press is a little different. You just need to run some experiments.

Hope this helps. Best wishes.

Mark


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## Dingbat (Jun 12, 2007)

I have the 4800 with the Sawgrass inks, but I chose not to go with the dual configuration. My greatest demand for sublimation is in printing personal photos on clothing. With the dual system, you will have one of the best printers designed to produce fantastic work but with the limitation of only 4 colors. Without the dual system, you get all 8 colors which makes a world of difference on the final product. For the heat transfer items get an inexpensive 4 color printer.


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## DAGuide (Oct 2, 2006)

Dingbat said:


> I have the 4800 with the Sawgrass inks, but I chose not to go with the dual configuration. My greatest demand for sublimation is in printing personal photos on clothing. With the dual system, you will have one of the best printers designed to produce fantastic work but with the limitation of only 4 colors. Without the dual system, you get all 8 colors which makes a world of difference on the final product. For the heat transfer items get an inexpensive 4 color printer.


I would be careful with making this a blanket statement. If everything is equal, then yes an 8-color printer will give you a better design than a 4-color printer. But, most of the dual/hybrid printers are running a RIP that allows you to have ICC profiles for the different substrates. I have seen first-hand the output of a hybrid printer using 4-colors running a RIP versus a 8-color printer running PowerDriver IQ. The skin tones and blacks were much better on the RIP. Comparing the power of a RIP versus a print driver is not fair. That is why most of the professional photo shops and large sign shops prefer to run their printers with a RIP. It will also print faster.

Now if you are comparing the Sawgrass hybrid not running a RIP versus the Sawgrass PowerDriver IQ, then I would definitely agree with you. But, that is the difference from running a hybrid with a RIP versus without a RIP. Thus, the one with the RIP cost more typically.


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## gothicaleigh (Jun 16, 2007)

Okay, I finally straightened things out and it's printing great.  

I believe the problem was with the cheap material I was using to test print on. I tried the same designs on a Hanes softL'ink T and they came out clear. The test material wasn't as white as the T's, so that may have contributed to some of the murkiness (note to self: need better lightng by the presses  ). 

I am printing directly from Photoshop using the ArTanium ICC profiles. I do have the ColorBurst RIP software for my 7800, but am unsure if it's compatible with the C88. Right now the C88+ is connected directly to my design PC instead of the one that serves the printers and cutters.

Thanks for the help and advice!


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