# Dye sub brown/tans are red



## 1090gal (Aug 2, 2016)

Using an Artisan 1430 dye sub system from cobra. Have tried all three profiles that came with it to print on coated aluminum and poker chip dye sub blanks from Coastal. All my browns and tans are red/rust-colored. All my reds are brown/tan. Other colors (blacks, yellows, greens, blues) are coming out ok. But I can't get the browns/reds to sublimate correctly, no matter what adjustments I make to my file colors in Photoshop. 
I have maintained the system according to all the directions supplied me when I got it two months ago. 
Do I need a custom profile created to solve this? Or is there some other way to solve this problem?


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## dazzabling (Sep 21, 2011)

Do you have a picture?


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## 1090gal (Aug 2, 2016)

I'll see if I can post pics.


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## 1090gal (Aug 2, 2016)

Top pic is the Photoshop file.
Bottom pic is what it looks like when subbed onto the coated aluminum. The other colors (green, blue, etc) don't happen to show in these pics, but I did them on the poker chips and they looked ok, except the reds which came out brown.
Also, I did 60 seconds at 400 deg F with light to med pressure, per the substrate instructions. Temp was verified with a heat gun.


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## STPG Press (Jul 6, 2015)

Try less heat, longer time.


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## Dekzion (May 18, 2015)

I sub ally at 190c for 60 secs. it looks like a profiling problem.


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## 1090gal (Aug 2, 2016)

Yeah, I did experiment with changing time/pressure/heat on the poker chips. Quite a bit. I know it's a different substrate, but nothing helped the red--> brown thing on those. And curiously enough, there is some red print on the poker chips with the greens and blues that looked better than what is showing on this coated aluminum or the straight red poker chip, which had a pretty terrible burnt-brown appearance. Which is why I'm confused about if it is a profiling issue, why is it that the red text on the green chip looks more like red than the red, say, on the cards in the pics above? It's the same red on the Photoshop palette. 

This dye-sub stuff is frustrating. I've studied up on it, think I understand the "science" and tech of it, at least in theory, but I can't really get it to work reliably and reproducibly from project to project. It seems a pretty finicky modality to me. Not sure it's worth the steep learning curve and school of hard knocks (and spent substrate) to get it to where it needs to be each time I try to do something with it. I would attribute it to the fact that I'm using a "knock-off" system, if you will, rather than, say, a Sawgrass system. But I've seen just as many posts on this forum from people who have the designer systems that don't work like they seem they should as I have from folks like me.
Does it ever get any easier? Am I just going to have to have a custom profile made up for each project that I try to do? Seems a little unsustainable for a small shop like mine.


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## Dekzion (May 18, 2015)

I'll probably get shouted at again, but I only use a Ricoh 3110dn with sawgrass carts, 'powerdriver' free from Sawgrass, (which lets you select internally the substrate you will be printing on) and Trupix paper. I export everything as a JPG and hit print. no fuss, no clogs, no wasted substrates.
And everyone will tell you you can buy cheaper. no thanks.


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## jfisk3475 (Jan 28, 2011)

Try changing output. Rgb or cmyk? We use cmyk on photos and rgb on graphics

Sent from my LG-H901 using T-Shirt Forums


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## 1090gal (Aug 2, 2016)

@Derek:

Well, you won't get yelled at from me.
I think it's great that you can do it that easily. At the time I invested in this set-up, I had very limited funds, and after a lot of research (on here mostly), what I got seemed like the best stuff to try to make work at the time and I needed wide-format for what I was doing at the time. 
Hind sight... and all that.
And I get it that it doesn't matter how much you save initially, if the set-up ends up not working, or costing you an arm and a leg to get (and keep) working. If I can't make this work now, I'll be looking at other options. I still like the idea of what dye-sub can do.


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## 1090gal (Aug 2, 2016)

@JIM:

Ok. I'll try changing it from RGB to CMYK if you think it might make a difference on a graphic like this. I did RGB because that is what was recommended and I thought I learned somewhere on these forums that color is more likely washed out if you use CMYK in the graphics program. Anyway, that is one thing that I have been happy with - the prints at least aren't looking washed out.


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## Dekzion (May 18, 2015)

Hey there 1090,
This is the machine I use, https://www.amazon.co.uk/Ricoh-3110DN-Colour-Geljet-Printer-x/dp/B007XASDP4 expensive right?
Yes, to us the inks are around £160 for a full set, but when you consider that 600 plus sheets of A4 at £10 per 100 can be printed you're talking around £300 all in and not a single sheet wasted along with a substrate. I dont use poker chips so don't know how many you can get on a sheet, 9? for £0.50p? print your chips and lob the machine out, I bet you wont.
I print on demand for my customers in the shop and when they ask for keyrings with a family member on them I just take the image off the phone, resize and maybe crop, export as a jpg, (does photoshop do that? as my neighbour can't seem to find that option and always gives me her image as a pdf) select metal substrate in powerdriver and print. a minute later there's a keyring ready for the customer.
It's hard enough in this business to concentrate on getting trade through the door, and worrying about making a printer, that wasn't designed for sub inks in the first place, run on after market tanks filled with cheap ink, keeping that ink flowing and wasting valuable blanks is something I wont allow to happen to me.
We always lose a couple of blanks when we start a new line, whilst we get the timings right, but after that we can cheerfully promote them knowing full well we can hit print.
Fastest thing I've ever done was a kids shirt with his drawing transferred on the front, less than 5 minutes into his hand because the press was up to temp.
slowest thing to press? those 6x4 glass blocks, 850 seconds! and half an hour to cool back down.
Life doesn't have to be technical, you don't need lots of buttons to twiddle or expensive programs to learn by heart and as far as dye sub goes it is the easiest thing in the world to do as long as you have a decent jpg (make one up in a posh program if you need to) and use the correct kit to print and press that jpg with. But don't let everyone know or else there will be far less help requests on TSF. (If you want my timings anyone, just PM me).


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## 1090gal (Aug 2, 2016)

Sounds like a good system you have going, Derek. I'll check into it if I can't resolve my issues satisfactorily. From what I recall when I researched systems several months ago, it's not the equipment, per se, that is such an incredible cost in a system such as yours, but the "designer" ink (if you will). I saw a lot of reasonable comments on cobra ink at that time. More issues with profiles that I saw, but again - downtime is time (and money) wasted, regardless of the cause. I'm trying to work w the folks at Cobra to fix the problem, so we'll see what happens. In the meanwhile, I am approaching the deadline for this particular job at warp speed and trying to come up with workable alternatives to get the job out, if I can't get it going by then. Thanks for sharing your thoughts - I appreciate it!


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## STPG Press (Jul 6, 2015)

I have a SG400. Bought it last year. Did like 20 shirts and a few hard substrates on it; then got called out to work a 4 month contract. I left the printer "on" so the nozzles and heads wouldn't clog...then got home and all cartridges were empty. 

Instead of spending high $$$ on SG inks, I purchased an Epson WF7110 because it will give me 13x19 and Cobra inks are much cheaper. I have a local friend who already has the same setup and he doesn't know it (until he reads this) but I'm figuring on using him for tech support. LOL.

The printer arrived today, but I was slack in getting my ink order placed so I'll be a few more days before I can get setup. We'll see how it goes.

Saying that, I may have an SG400 up for sale very soon. 

Cheers.


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## 1090gal (Aug 2, 2016)

@TIM:
Let me know how it goes with your color profiles!


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## gardenhillemb (Oct 29, 2015)

This is going to sound like a silly question, but have you done a nozzle check? It looks like you're not getting correct ink mixing. Also, you can text the tech guys at Cobra Ink and they're really good at responding. I just got a system from Cobra and the yellow clogged pretty soon after starting and they walked me through troubleshooting it.


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## 1090gal (Aug 2, 2016)

Good suggestion. Yes, I did a head clean and nozzle check several times - no issues, but no change. I also contacted Cobra and they are working on it, I haven't heard back yet. 
I'm wondering if there's a problem with the way my colors are set up in Photoshop. I did not create this file, so maybe there's a problem there. I will go back and check that today and see if I can affect any changes that way.


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## 1090gal (Aug 2, 2016)

Ok. So I tried changing my Ps from RGB 8 bit to RGB 16 bit, no difference. 
I also found that my Ps profile was not set to Adobe (1998), so I changed that as well. No difference. 
I'm using CC 2017 Photoshop, if that means anything.

In addition to the head cleanings and nozzle checks looking ok per the test page(s), I have printed off a few large photo-type files that have all colors on them, just to see if all colors are printing, and yes, all the different colors appear on the test prints and the ink levels are noticeably going down in all cartridges with all the test prints I've been running the past 3-4 days.

I'm flummoxed.


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## 1090gal (Aug 2, 2016)

Adjusted the color files on the poker chips and it looks even worse now! 

A puce green color. See pics, attached. This was pressed according to the manufacturer's directions for the chips, and temp on the heat press was verified with a heat gun.


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## jfisk3475 (Jan 28, 2011)

I have been using Cobra for years and only had this issues once or twice. I will look back at my notes. Try calling Richard at cobra.

Sent from my LG-H901 using T-Shirt Forums


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## Dekzion (May 18, 2015)

STPG Press said:


> I have a SG400. Bought it last year. Did like 20 shirts and a few hard substrates on it; then got called out to work a 4 month contract. I left the printer "on" so the nozzles and heads wouldn't clog...then got home and all cartridges were empty.
> 
> Hardly surprising that your carts were empty after 4 months really, starter carts are not full capacity to begin with, I remember buying a new set in a very short space of time, maybe in the first six weeks, but when new ones are installed the Ricoh has a quick clean up of about 15 seconds and the levels are full to the brim. (marvellous sight). It's a pity you're in Texas I'd come and rescue the SG400 from the neglectful owner, haha.
> 
> @1090, looks like a serious blockage there, did the printed image on the paper look green then? My images on the paper before pressing always look lighter as though they have a dusting of chalk over them but the colours are there. and there shouldn't be any reason on earth why you couldn't just print a straight picture and it comes out right, it is after all just a printer using a profile that adjusts the amount of ink to look right when heated, it's still a picture, the colour doesn't change, as in the blues go green for example. That only happens if the temperature and timings are incorrect.


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## 1090gal (Aug 2, 2016)

Thanks, Jim. 
Because so far, what Cobra has recommended hasn't made any difference. They re-sent me a profile to use that I had already had and tried. I re-installed the (new) file they sent me, re-installed the latest Epson driver (same one I already had installed), and ran another nozzle check (still showed no issues) because those were the things Cobra told me to do. There has been no change in the quality of the transfer that is being generated by the printer. The colors are still significantly off with reds and tans/browns, and definitely NOT being represented on the substrate as they are on my screen. 

I don't know whether I'm glad or even more frustrated to hear you say that this sort of thing has happened to you before: glad it's maybe not just ME....but at the same time not at all reassured to hear that this problem has happened before. If that makes any sense. 

So I am left to surmise that the problem is in the way my graphics program (Creative Cloud Photoshop 2017) is telling the printer to translate the color data in the graphics files (I have run other unrelated-to-this-job full-color prints and found the same problem with the same colors). This seems to me either an issue in the profile(s) or in the way my photoshop is set up to translate the color. (Or in the ink, itself? But if that were the case, I would think other Cobra customers would be having the same issue.)

Would others agree that these are the likely culprits here? 

I have set my Ps to RGB Adobe 1998, as stated earlier in the thread. Is there some other setting in Ps I should be changing? I am not knowledgeable enough with the inner working of Photoshop color management to know where to begin to start messing around with more advanced settings. 

At this point, I have burned through all the extra substrate I had and have finally cancelled the job because there's no way I'm going to get a decent product made in the customer's time frame. Now it's just me trying to see if I can make this system work or if I'm going to have to scrap it completely and get something new. 

Needless to say, this has been extremely costly and disappointing. But thanks to all who have offered their opinions and advice here.


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## 1090gal (Aug 2, 2016)

Derek - the colors on the transfer look similar to what's on the computer monitor, but a bit muted (expected for dye sub) and definitely browner in the reds, like there's a lot more green mixed in there, which is why I think I got that horrible green color on that chip. I should say that I changed the color in the file to a bright magenta and pressed another chip, which came out coral-colored. Not what it looked like on my computer screen, but at least the color did change in response to the change I made in the file. I also changed the reds in the file for the aluminum piece and when I printed it the reds/tans/browns looked more orange on the transfer and were more orange on the aluminum when I pressed it. Again - the finished product didn't look like what my screen showed, but the colors did change in response to changes made in the file. 

I'm not seeing any actual tans on the paper where tans should be, these areas have a definite red cast to them. At first I thought it was, indeed, a blockage in probably the yellow because it seemed there should be a more yellowish hue in the areas of the tans than what I've been getting. So I ran some other prints that had yellows, browns, etc as well as other shades of red, blue, green to see what would show up there. The yellows are coming out just fine in the other prints. But the browns look way too ruddy/reddish/rusty. So, same problem as with the other files. I have run multiple head cleanings and nozzle checks and the test pages show all six color patches printing with no defects after the nozzle checks. 

Thanks for taking the time to read all this and offer suggestions.


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## 1090gal (Aug 2, 2016)

I should also say that I have fiddled a bit with more or less time and less temp. Other than getting less ink transfer with less time/temp and a more burnt-brown look on a chip I did for 70 seconds rather than 55, I haven't seen much difference in the results. Maybe because I haven't varied the times and temps enough, but that's because I just flat out don't/didn't have enough substrate to go, say, ten different pressings for each variable. Truth is, if that's what is going to be required each time I try to do a dye sub project, then this modality just isn't going to be for me. 
I did verify my heat press temp with a heat gun (at 6-7 spots on the platen) before each and every pressing.


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## jfisk3475 (Jan 28, 2011)

Sent you a PM

Sent from my LG-H901 using T-Shirt Forums


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## Dekzion (May 18, 2015)

It's a shame you're in the states, I'd whizz a load out for you to keep the job on, perhaps some-one with a decent printer nearer you could offer?
The PDF you uploaded,, can you print that? with plain paper settings, not photo or anything special. without using photoshop? and standard Epson profile? perhaps install the printer to another port and rename it so it doesn't use the new icc and you'll know which one to select for the print manager. that way it should work as any other printer but the densities will be wrong for subbing.


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## 1090gal (Aug 2, 2016)

That's a great idea! I'll try that and see what happens.


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## gardenhillemb (Oct 29, 2015)

Does your design sublimate correctly on other media? Maybe try to sublimate it on a white mug and see if the colors come out correctly. That way you can eliminate if it's the transfer or the substrate.


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## 1090gal (Aug 2, 2016)

Just thought I would post comparison photos that show what I got with the different pressings I described, above. 
Top of each pic shows what happens with the .psd version of the file, which I posted a pic of in the beginning of the thread. 
Bottom of each pic shows a print I did of a .jpeg version of the file, after changing my photoshop color management to RBG Adobe 1998. This is the one that turned out with an orange cast.
Third pic is the .jpeg version of the file that shows the intended coloring. The .psd file was too big to attach, but the coloring looks identical to this .jpeg.

I did reprint another transfer of the .psd version after changing to RGB Adobe 1998 in my photoshop and it looks identical to the print I got initially with the .psd file that pressed the brownish one shown here.


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## Viper Graphics (Mar 28, 2009)

1090gal said:


> Using an Artisan 1430 dye sub system from cobra. Have tried all three profiles that came with it to print on coated aluminum and poker chip dye sub blanks from Coastal. All my browns and tans are red/rust-colored. All my reds are brown/tan. Other colors (blacks, yellows, greens, blues) are coming out ok. But I can't get the browns/reds to sublimate correctly, no matter what adjustments I make to my file colors in Photoshop.
> I have maintained the system according to all the directions supplied me when I got it two months ago.
> Do I need a custom profile created to solve this? Or is there some other way to solve this problem?


1090gal, I use the wpson WF7110 and use cobra inks. Just a quick reply with a show and tell using the coastal poker chips and aluminum...
As soon as I get more time (later today...got a customer hanging over my head...) I will re-read this post and see if there is anything of value I can tell you.

Larry


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## 1090gal (Aug 2, 2016)

Wow Larry! Those look great! That is the kind of quality I was hoping for. Glad to see it is possible...and with Cobra ink as well. 
Clearly -- I am doing something very, very wrong. 
I will say this, however, the aluminum does press well...I just have to get this color issue fixed. 
The chips...well, I haven't had as good of luck getting good presses on them. Do you use the jigs that Coastal sells to press them? I have a jig, but it's one that I made up in the machine shop, out of aluminum. Am wondering if this may be why I am getting uneven pressing on the chips, which is another, separate issue I am having.


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## Dekzion (May 18, 2015)

Spot on Larry! Glad you've chimed in as you'd have more experience obviously with the inks, It'd be great to get 1090 sorted out.


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## 1090gal (Aug 2, 2016)

Ok, in case you are following this ridiculous saga...
I went ahead and printed the Logo file that's supposed to go on the aluminum straight from my computer file folder, bypassing Photoshop, etc. It came out still with a rust-brown cast to all of the red/brown/tan areas, but maybe a little less than the version that I printed from Photoshop. 
Not planning to press it onto anything at this point, because I don't have enough substrate left...on the off chance that I get this fixed in the next 36 hours and can get the stuff to the customer as a special Christmas surprise (!)... And anyway, after screwing with this constantly for the past week, I think I have a pretty good idea of how it would look anyway. Which is NOT like the file shows it. 

I also pressed one of my other color prints, a Rosie the Riveter poster onto some poly fabric. Rosie came out red as hell, like a sunburned pig. (If you know how that looks, you know what I'm talking about.) Which again, is NOT WHAT SHE'S SUPPOSED TO LOOK LIKE. 
Blues look Blue. Yellows look Yellow. Greens...well not too many greens in this photo. The plain red on her bandana looks red, well orange-red. But her tan-ish skin looks terribly burnt-ruddy-rust brown. 

I'm attaching the chip photos too, so folks can see what they look like. They look like crap, actually (this is starting to make me laugh, it's so messed up and I am tired from stressing over this). Especially compared to the great stuff Larry posted. But, there you go.


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## jfisk3475 (Jan 28, 2011)

Are you using plain paper setting on the epson print box? We use the plain paper and vivid settings. 

Sent from my LG-H901 using T-Shirt Forums


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## STPG Press (Jul 6, 2015)

If you live in the US, go to Wal-Mart and their fabric department and just buy a yard or two of 100% Polyester fabric and use that for your testing and quit blowing up your expensive substrates. Until you figure out the problem, there's not need for that waste.

In an earlier thread, you mentioned "aborting" the job for the customer. As a best-practice, you should *always* have backups in place for every service you offer. Getting a part of something is better than getting nothing. There are enough people on T-Shirt Forums alone that would help to get you out of a bind and prevent you from losing a customer. I'd bet on it. You just have to have those relationships established before it becomes an immediate emergency.

Hope it all works out. 

Tim


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## 1090gal (Aug 2, 2016)

Yep. Plain Paper. Photo Quality. ICM, etc... as per Richard at Cobra's instructions.


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## 1090gal (Aug 2, 2016)

@TIM:
Great advice. The customer is a family member who was wanting to make a gift basket for one of the vendors for their business. So, it's not like I'm going to go completely belly up over the deal. Just frustrating that I couldn't make it work. He knew going in that we would be trying to do something on substrates that I hadn't tried before. That's how I got the jigs for the chips - it's a CNC machine shop. 
I hear you on the cheap poly fabric. I didn't do that because I thought I better see what happens on the actual chips and aluminum. I didn't know if dye sub would be dye sub no matter whether on poly fabric, mugs, glass block, or any other coated substrate. I was just trying to eliminate variables by using the actual stuff. I did get extra, just can't use it all up with stuff that the prints appear will not be the right colors. I'm now doing the prints on poly fabric scraps that I happen to have here.

And you are so right about helpful people here. I'm truly thankful and amazed at all the helpful advice and comments that I've gotten so far -- again, Thank You to all who have been willing to take time out of your busy lives to help me. I'm sure it must get frustrating reading about stuff that seems rather, well, stupid to those who have this all down and running like a well oiled machine.


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## STPG Press (Jul 6, 2015)

For all intents and purposes, 100% Poly in white is going to sublimate the same regardless of the substrate. Sure, there might be slight variations, but your issues, sadly, are not slight at the moment.

Use smaller swatches and smaller prints. If you have the ability to cut down your stock and your printer will take a 4x6 or a 5.5x8.5 sheet, cut them down when you print them as well. It will save you some costs on your transfer stock as well.


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## Viper Graphics (Mar 28, 2009)

1090gal, sent you a PM......


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## Viper Graphics (Mar 28, 2009)

1090gal said:


> @TIM:
> I didn't know if dye sub would be dye sub no matter whether on poly fabric, mugs, glass block, or any other coated substrate. I was just trying to eliminate variables by using the actual stuff. I did get extra, just can't use it all up with stuff that the prints appear will not be the right colors.


The substrate DOES make a difference...a quick reference you can go here...Sublimation Blanks click on any substrate then click on the more info button and it will give you the pressing information. I do not have any affiliation with this company but I am a customer of some of their items....I used this as a guide on some new items and adjusted to my ink and paper but it's pretty close. Your mileage may vary but yes, a lot of the substrates are much the same but not everything so check them out first.


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## 1090gal (Aug 2, 2016)

Thanks Larry, I didn't get the PM. Please resend.


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## Viper Graphics (Mar 28, 2009)

1090gal said:


> Thanks Larry, I didn't get the PM. Please resend.


Just sent another...


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## 1090gal (Aug 2, 2016)

Ok. So first I want to again say a big Kansas THANK YOU to everyone here who was willing to give advice, opinions, and help me think this problem through. 

And I want to let everyone know that the problem is now SOLVED. 
I have to give credit to my art director who stayed very late with me today (in fact, she's still here), because she was helping me swatch colors so we could make as many prints (on cheap WalMart poly, no less, Tim!  ) as needed to try to find useable colors given the unpredictable nature of what my reds/browns were doing. She ran another nozzle check and found that, compared to what the print screen showed, the magenta and light magenta swatches on the nozzle check test page were in reversed order (which I had not even noticed before w all the nozzle checks I did). So then I went and looked inside the printer and found the CIS tubes were switched out of order in their attachment to the ink cartridges. I switched the order of the cartridges to the correct order, and voila! Everything is right with the world of dye sub color in my universe!

Just putting this explanation out there in case anyone else buys a preassembled printer/CIS and has these kind of color issues. Just goes to show that the folks at Cobra are Human, and sometimes snafus occur when putting things together


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## Dekzion (May 18, 2015)

Whoop Whoop!! Fantastic News, Go get'm Buddy.


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## Chris109 (Aug 3, 2015)

Reminds me of a suggestion made by an embroidery machine installer way back when it came to thread problems...
always check the thread path.


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## 1090gal (Aug 2, 2016)

Oh yeah. I feel very stupid to have not checked that earlier.


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## Chris109 (Aug 3, 2015)

Lord knows that I would never have checked that. It's too easy of a solution. I would have gone thru the same things as you. But, it's over and done and life is good again.


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