# Pucker around emblems



## demostenes (Oct 20, 2011)

hi guys,
i know this forum is about embroidery on t-shirts and my question is not exactly t-shirt related, i apologise for that (altho pucker that i mention shows up on t-shirts as well).
I've been facing this problem for like a year now, tried literally everything that i could (experiment wise) and still no solution:
There is pucker around edge of every emblem that I create (i got multi-head Happy HCD1501 machine) and sometimes also around zones with big ammount of stitches (large, filled areas like big letters). 
I am using 100% poliester thread (madeira) and 100% poliester fabric (in eu measure units it's 195g/cm2, so it's rather thin). As a stabilizer I'm using cut-away, perforated, polypropylene material which is solid enough for such a thin fabric.
I've tried changing tension either on color thread and bobbin (ran apropriate tests too), I've tried temporary adhesive to attach backing to fabric, i've tried different kind of stitch in design but since im using Brother PE Desing 7.0 i don't have much to choose from. 
I've also tried to embroider on different stabilizers (the one i mentioned above works best so far) and with different needles (using Grotz-Beckert embroidery needles atm). 
None of above solved the problem.
Im quite fresh in embroidery stuff and frankly, i ran out of ideas. 
Is it possible that my digitizing software is the reason?
What else can be possible source of the problem?
I probably should mention that these emblems are for industrial using on workwear - comfort of wearing is not necessarily most important factor, solidity is far more important. However people are asking for better visual quality...
Im attaching links to photos of emblem showing how it looks like.
ImageShack® - Online Photo and Video Hosting
ImageShack® - Online Photo and Video Hosting
ImageShack® - Online Photo and Video Hosting


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## richt74 (Feb 11, 2011)

Hi
What size is the embroidery?
Also from the pictures they look like badges...are you embroidering material first then overlocking them afterwards or do you have the badges initially then embroidering on to them?
Rich


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## demostenes (Oct 20, 2011)

The badge is 8" x 3.5" size (I'm making them on 12,6" hoops). 
Text and logo inside and the frame around are included in this particular design file and are sewn by embroidery machine.


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## richt74 (Feb 11, 2011)

What order are you embroidering the design? Text first, logo first, border first? If you are embroidering the border first and lettering and logo after then you will find the design puckers. That will make a difference


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## demostenes (Oct 20, 2011)

I used to embroider text and logo first and then the border. 
Then I've changed to border first, made tests. Result was, sadly, the same. 
Well, in fact, badge looks slightly better with frame being sewn first (although the improvement is minor).


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## richt74 (Feb 11, 2011)

Ahh ok i would have said that you would have to embroider the frame last to get better results but seeing as you have already tried that i can only assume that the backing is not strong enough!
On a few occasions in the past for firmer backing we have actually used more or less a twill material as backing instead of the thinner kind for garments. Its maybe not the best solution financially but i think you will get better results! Would you have any to run a sample off to see?
Rich


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## demostenes (Oct 20, 2011)

Thanks for reply! 
I probably will be able to find a sample around so I'm gonna run some tests tommorow. 
There is a problem though. Fabrics that I'm currently using was certified to use with workwear clothing that another part of company I work in, sews. 
For that reason changing fabric is something that I'd like to avoid.
However, if problem will disappear I'll try to force re-certifying.
Although I have sent picture of this logo and sample of fabric to a company that makes embroidery for over a dozen years and they've made a sample badge for me.
Their sample was plain as hell, no pucker at all...
That made me thinking that It should be possible to make badges without puckering...
Btw: I forgot to mention that design has 13k stitches.


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## tfalk (Apr 3, 2008)

Assuming your underlay is at a 45 or 90 degree angle, have you tried increasing the underlay and corresponding decrease in density of the top stitching?


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## bungy (Aug 24, 2006)

use a heavy weight fusible (iron on backing) this will help with stability.

I would also press it for a few seconds with a heat press after you have stitched them.
Put a sheet of paper or a teflon sheet on top and press light/med for about 10-15secs.


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## demostenes (Oct 20, 2011)

Rick:
Unfortunately I could not find any sample of twill (or similar fabric) around. But I asked boss about re-certifying and he was not too happy  So I have to stick to current fabric.

Ted:
What do you mean by increasing underlay? I was trying to decrease density of design but I've reached level when It's no longer possible due to span of fabric through the stitches.

Steve:
I'm gonna try pressing today and inform about results.


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## tfalk (Apr 3, 2008)

demostenes said:


> What do you mean by increasing underlay? I was trying to decrease density of design but I've reached level when It's no longer possible due to span of fabric through the stitches.


This makes me think you have no underlay at all 

Underlay is used under the top stitching to provide a stable base to support the top. If you do not have any underlay, most likely all your stitching is going in the same direction. All that push/pull in one direction can cause what you are seeing. The way to fix it is to build a base layer underneath going in the opposite direction (90 degree) to counter the push/pull. This also allows you to decrease the density of the top layer since you typically don't need as dense a coverage if the base is more stable.

Another way to decrease the top density is use 30 weight thread instead of 40 weight. Since it's thicker, it covers the area more. It's somewhat coarser appearance but it's good for very large fill areas especially if you have something else going over the top...


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## demostenes (Oct 20, 2011)

Ah, I think I get it now. By underlay you mean set of stitches which should be sewn (as a kind of background) before filling the shape with top stitching? PE Design which I'm using has rather limited ammount of options for underlay. I probably should make it by myself and that is gonna be first thing to do when I get to work on monday. Thanks for tip, i really hope that will gonna make the deal!

PS. I've tried pressing embroidery with a heat press right after sewing and, unfortunately, it hasn't changed a bit :/


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## laz0924 (Jun 25, 2009)

"What do you mean by increasing underlay" Are you kidding? tell your boss to send the design to a digitizing company and have it digitized for the material your using.


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## demostenes (Oct 20, 2011)

You don't have to post if you have nothing constructive to say. Let's stick to that rule.


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## laz0924 (Jun 25, 2009)

It is constructive, I told you how to fix it!!


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## demostenes (Oct 20, 2011)

Ted - thanks alot, I've made underlay and that quite made the deal. 
It is not perfect yet but the improvement in looks is major. Apparently my digitizing software is not good enough for the type of badges we are making (and type of fabrics we are using). 
I'm gonna change it for something more advanced - if you guys can recommend something I'll be grateful.
Once again - thanks a lot for your help!


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## bungy (Aug 24, 2006)

demostenes said:


> I'm gonna change it for something more advanced - if you guys can recommend something I'll be grateful.


That is just gunna open a can of worms that is 

There are a number of good programs around, in no particular order.

Wilcom - Wilcom - Solutions: Embroidery & Print 
CAI SEDS - SEDS Imagine Embroidery Digitizing Editing Lettering Software
APS-Ethos - ApS-Ethos - Embroidery Software - Professional Embroidery Design Software
Wings XP - Embroidery software, that creates designs for embroidery machines, wings xp, experience, wingsxp
DRAWings 5 - DRAWings 5 Combo Embroidery Software
Embird - Embird Embroidery Software
Stitch ERA - Free Sierra software for Embroidery & more...

are just some of the available options.
all you need to decide now is what features you want and how much you want to spend


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## demostenes (Oct 20, 2011)

bungy said:


> That is just gunna open a can of worms that is


I should of think about it  

Thanks for that list, Steve. And for all of your replies,guys!

I consider topic as closed.


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## AndTees (Jul 6, 2009)

I haven't seen it mentioned but I will also offer this; it is natural to want to stretch the fabric when you see puckering. This is exactly the wrong thing as that stretch will just be sewn to the backing and when released, you get puckering. Be sure the fabric is nothing more than flat against the backing. It's the backing you're really sewing... the garment is just along for the ride.


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