# how to pay my designer



## rms21040 (Apr 13, 2015)

I am owner of a very small time screen printing business that officially took off on July 10th of this year. We are starting to grow and become more noticed in the local community here in my small little town. 

My love for screen printing started as a hobby, as it has for many of us here, and is still transitioning from hobby to business as i take it further. The basic setup of my company is myself doing all the physical labor including the screen printing, the other aspect of my business is my long time friend who is an excellent graphic designer. He is truly a valuable asset to my company and sets me apart from other print shops local to me. 

My question is how to pay him. 

We have done many shirts with our own designs inspired by bands such as phish and grateful dead and have had great success. For this i pay him a 30% commission of net profit made from those sales. I am pretty comfortable with this and feel that it is fair on both ends. As we start to acquire bulk orders however i feel that i need to develop a better method. I have considered a few different ways to go about this, 

1) I could continue to pay him 30% of net made from bulk orders but i feel that with large orders i would be over paying him. It just doesn't seem like a solution that is appropriate for all scenarios. 

2) I could pay him by the hour, however he currently works for a very credible graphic and design company that pays him upwards of 40 grand in salary a year. I have payed him hourly before but he asked me for 35 an hour. at this stage in business i feel that it is too high a number for me despite the fact that he is worth every penny of it. The solution that i think best fits is to offer him 7.5% of my company with dividends distributed quarterly at 20/hr.

I would love to hear any and all input regarding this subject and how you go about paying your workers. Maybe my strategy is self destructive i'm really not sure, that is why i am asking you! this is an issue that i have struggled with more than anything. thanks in advance for your responses!


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## gnizitigid (Jan 23, 2007)

Your first solution of 30% of net made for small orders is fine, and as said $35/hour is too much

So may be you fix flat price per design with him ? or try to have separate commission structure based on small and large order, hope will understand your concern on large orders

I have worked in same way but since my area is digitizing and vector and his area is tshirt design


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## johnnyb57 (May 26, 2012)

Boy your a tight a**, is he really a friend or not ? Look at it this way did he help you to get where your at now, and where will you end up of you loose him ? Either pay the $35 an hr. or work out a flat fee per design....


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## rms21040 (Apr 13, 2015)

I am not a tight ***, he has read this post and we are both in the same boat trying to figure out what is fair... I am not going to lose him as a friend lol. He agrees that 35 is too much which is why we are trying to find how real businesses handle this situation. please elaborate on why you believe that i am a tight ***? This is a business and we are here to make money efficiently


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## rms21040 (Apr 13, 2015)

Surely a real business owner can chime in


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## johnnyb57 (May 26, 2012)

Ok, Lets say it took him 4HRS. to complete a design @ $35 per= $140 ? If he's really that good, and is throwing out some top of the line designs and another large company wants him they will make an offer, also if he sees you selling a lot of whatever over an extended time and getting fat, well put yourself in his shoes ? Friendship partnerships usually don't last long anyways if you see what I'm sayin... And I'm quite aware of business concept, all business owners think everything is over priced, and they can get anyone to do the work ? All I'm getting at is be fair... The way I'm seeing this is both of you are at the starting gate seeing as ither one of you know what to give, or get... Also since it's a part time gig I'm way off the mark, and he just wants some play money.. I've been there before, lunch and a few beers and all was good...


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## rms21040 (Apr 13, 2015)

Thanks Johnny i really appreciate the helpful feedback. You raise some very good points and i should probably be a little more specific. 

If i were to have him design a logo for a customer then you couldn't be more correct. Someone with his sort of talent and credentials deserves every bit of $35 an hour.

Where i have a hard time is when someone comes to me with a logo already designed but still needs to be vectored. Do i still pay $35 an hour?? Its hard for me to find this feasible for someone who comes to me to possibly pay an additional $100-$200 bucks to have shirts made when they already have artwork that is one step away from being in the format i need.

Do any of you have an opinion about giving a small slice of ownership? Would this not justify receiving better rates from him for the benefit of the company?


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## Viper Graphics (Mar 28, 2009)

rms21040 First let me say Johnny is right the only ship that will never float is a partnership (unless it's a law firm or doctors office)



rms21040 said:


> Where i have a hard time is when someone comes to me with a logo already designed but still needs to be vectored. Do i still pay $35 an hour??


Yes...it's for the magic wand fee....



rms21040 said:


> Its hard for me to find this feasible for someone who comes to me to possibly pay an additional $100-$200 bucks to have shirts made when they already have artwork that is one step away from being in the format i need.


Ahhhh.... yes, that silly just one step away....it's nothing? 
If the artwork is fairly decent then your artist might be able to vector it pretty quickly...30 minute to an hour. Sloppy pixelated art that might look good on a business card may take a couple hours. It depends. either way if you don't want to pay the artist his due then have the customer bring you vectorized art....pretty simple. Oh, I've been doing graphics since old school days and charge $45 - $60 hr depending on the job so if your guy is good then 35 is a gift. Don't count yourself or him short. If your really worried about the "big" orders then pay for the art...one fee and give smaller royalties based on volume, that's what I might do. good luck figuring this out and hope you stay friends


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## mikepet (Mar 26, 2015)

I'm in a similar position with my print startup and have wrestled with a could options and approaches that I could use when working graphic designers and artists. Neither of these have been tested.

From what I understand from your post, you are collaborating on designs with your friend. That immediately implies that the creative is jointly owned by both of you and therefore he is entitled to a residual or royalty. Since this is your business and you are doing all of the post design work (actually producing the shirts), then I would think the royalty amount you agree on should be low. I would also expect your friend to want some small amount up front to cover his labour. In this case, you have a low up front cost while you defer the additional amounts until you get some sales.

If you wanted to remain at arms length with your friend then don't offer or negotiate royalties on the designs. You, as the business owner, will negotiate an amount to produce the artwork and state that you will hold exclusive rights to the creative and retain all profits from shirts containing the artwork. In this case you can expect to pay more up front and you will have to hustle to get that money back (and more) from the bulk sales. 

As for the last case where you need to have supplied artwork vectorized, simply have your friend quote you an amount to have it done. His experience should help him determine a good estimate. Some artwork may be easier than others so expect a variable cost.

In the end, I believe what's best is to just pay an agreed amount up front for the art and be done with it. Stay at arms length with your friend and don't give up any equity in the business.


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## gnizitigid (Jan 23, 2007)

rms21040 said:


> Where i have a hard time is when someone comes to me with a logo already designed but still needs to be vectored. Do i still pay $35 an hour??


Your case is bit complicated, a friend and also business and main factor is money, some people do same work in flat prices and some charge per hour


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## STPG Press (Jul 6, 2015)

For fear of being accused on not being a "real business owner", I'll still chime in.

How important is this guy to your continued success? Would you rather work with someone else? If he were to leave, how much of an impact would it have on your operation?

Sounds like he does good work, is easy to get along with, and you know him as a friend as well. Why do you feel that 30% of sales/profits/whatever is fine for small orders, but too much for large orders? That doesn't really make sense and I think that's why others have inferred that you're a tight***.

Without him graphics design, it seems, you wouldn't be as successful with these designs and would likely not be getting these larger orders.

Why not just keep that? It works and it doesn't really cost you anything to keep it that way; other than just keeping the lions share of profits on big deals.

If you really must squeeze on the big orders, simply do something like, 30% on the first $1000 in sales, 20% afterwards for each designed image.

But still, I'd gladly pay the same 30% for a $10,000 order as much as I would for a $100 order because I'm making so much more money. If could take the guy responsible for the upfront design success of the project with me, I would gladly do so.

My .02.


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## Eloshclothing (Oct 6, 2015)

hi,
30% from net profit sounds fair, even though bulk orders profits are lower than small orders since you pay him from profit it wouldn't make a difference, especially if you are happy with his designs and service I wouldn't loose him. I don't think you should give him any kind of partnership ( with all due respect of course this is your business this is just my opinion ) 

Good luck with your new business


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## STPG Press (Jul 6, 2015)

Eloshclothing said:


> hi,
> 30% from net profit sounds fair, even though bulk orders profits are lower than small orders since you pay him from profit it wouldn't make a difference, especially if you are happy with his designs and service I wouldn't loose him. I don't think you should give him any kind of partnership ( with all due respect of course this is your business this is just my opinion )
> 
> Good luck with your new business


30% of net, as OP stated, wouldn't have any impact (or minimal at worst) on profitability on discounted bulk orders since less profit means his 30% reflects that.


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## kgvinc (Nov 12, 2015)

30% of orders is plenty fair, if you get a big order then that's his hard earned money for dealing with 30% on all the small orders. If you don't want to pay him the 30% then you can pay him hourly, but then it costs you when you only have small orders. You're lucky to get an hourly designer at $35. Someone is going to be on the "losing" end and it shouldn't be him...because when your business is doing well he won't be an owner.


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## natthansimpson (Mar 26, 2014)

You do what is best for your business while being fair. But business is business and with all fairness when you loose clients you loose employees and cut back and when you gain clients you gain employees and so on - but business dictates what you do not relationships... I posted a excel file that can help you figure out how to keep him - if he is worth it then the client will pay it - if he is not then the client will not.. When i went to a printer and started working we did free art all of the time - I was good and got better and so we charged $25 per art no questions asked - and then i got better and we charged $40 for basic art and $100 for advanced per hr and we grew the business and got the clients we wanted.. but the route you take is yours but you need to charge for value added not based on relationships.. 

I'll repost link to spreadsheet to help you out..


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## natthansimpson (Mar 26, 2014)

Change the following..

( in yellow ) # of Artworks per day
( in yellow ) # Artist Hourly Pay
( in yellow ) # price charged per Artwork

The other values will auto calculate...
here is spread sheet via google drive downloadable...

https://drive.google.com/a/piggyback...ew?usp=sharing


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## tonkatruck (Apr 10, 2011)

For those designs that just need to be vectorized or redrawn you can always use sites like 24hourartwork.com. They charge $15. It is rare to find a job that costs more than that. Save you friend for the designs he is creating and pay him the 30%. You email them the jpeg and they send you back the vector art in 24 hours.


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## atomicaxe (Sep 23, 2013)

I don't see why $35/hour is wrong. freelance rate, that is pretty spot on. $40k a year is only around $20/hr paid regularly and it doesn't sound like you are at the place to hire someone part time or full time yet. Here is the reality though. Any designer worth his salt ... doesn't take a long time to do design work. I mean, really ... most t-shirt art should be around 30 minutes worth of actual work. Maybe 15 minutes of font selection ... and some correspondence time. My rate is actually quite close to that. I have 3 or 5 shops at any time that get me 5-10 jobs a week so I drop my per hour rate to around $20/hr and most jobs end up costing $5-15 ... but on average when people send me stuff, it's normally a $15 minimum with a per hour rate that slightly fluctuates depending on the work required. 

But just a little bit of devils advocate ... you do a job that is $200, you're paying him $60 for that job ... if it takes him an hour ... you're paying him $60 per hour for artwork. $35/hour would have saved you cash, or let you pay for something custom for yourself (a brochure design, awesome tee design, etc) If it took him 3-5 hours ... it's considerably less per hour ... but you have to find out what is best for you. 

Just saying ... have to find out what works.

If it's overly complex, ask for a special rate, or go by the 30% thing.


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## natthansimpson (Mar 26, 2014)

atomicaxe said:


> Any designer worth his salt ... doesn't take a long time to do design work. I mean, really ... most t-shirt art should be around 30 minutes worth of actual work. Maybe 15 minutes of font selection ... and some correspondence time. My rate is actually quite close to that.
> 
> Just saying ... have to find out what works.
> 
> If it's overly complex, ask for a special rate, or go by the 30% thing.



Please try my t-shirt art/designer costs spreadsheet and let me know how you come out and it will tell you which shops can afford you - which need you and which don't based on their volume of work and profit margins... 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3FHPK8eaoVrcmpqYmZYNjNFbmM/view?usp=sharing


But the added value of hiring a pro as opposed to paying apart time or full time local is not calculated and needs to be mentioned because when i worked at a shop they had client come from all over the 50 states to get artwork done and since we did art we printed many of them too... That alone was brought in more $$$ than any two artist salary alone... contract the best and produce the best and the best will come..


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## vizualbyte (Jun 26, 2008)

Here I thought the going rate to hire graphic artists full time for print shops avg $15 an hour which is way below my freelance rate...

Is there any shop owners who pay their artists $30 or more per hour here?


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## natthansimpson (Mar 26, 2014)

I'd say you are about right - I was getting $20 per hr but with perks - I could use equipment when i wanted and I could work on anything i wanted so long as I was in the office for 30hrs during the week and at least 3 days a week... I could leave when i was caught up on art and come and go as I pleased...

Dream job I know - Yes and as I type i am forced to ask myself - why did i leave?  - crap !!! lol


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