# What would you do?



## RideOutWear (Feb 27, 2010)

Ok so I just done an order of 12 tank tops, 50 shirts for a guy. To give you an idea of this guy he complains about everything. I normally dont charge extra fees for set up or design but I had to do a lot of design work for his order due to him not being happy with it and being very picky. So I charged him a design fee of $40. He complained said it was wrong blah blah blah. I told him there was a 2 week wait for his order initially and then he starts DEMANDING his shirts in 3 days, I kept telling him there are orders before yours and so on he kept demading it. So I stuck with my guns and his order was completed on my schedule not his. Then he starts telling me he wants me to bring him the shirts.(he is an hour away) I said no he complained about it so to just shut him up I agreed to meet half way. So when we met we went through the shirts looking at them and he examined them hard. He asked me if he could pay me the balance on paypal when he got home I said yes. That was at 8am. So I called him at 10pm asking when payment would be madehe said he hadn't made it home he was at the er. I gave the benefit of the doubt next day he called me saying when he took the shirts out of the box they were sticking together and the ink was coming off. Even though we went through every shirt when we met and nothing looked to be wrong I dried them all on my conveyor dryer, and he is saying he is not paying until I re do his order because they are all messed up. 

Now for my questions

1st is it possible it something he did, maybe washed them wrong or something that would cause them to do that?

2nd what would you do in my situation?

And I am new to the business side of this and know I shouldn't have left without my money. My mistake and I won't make it twice! 

Sorry for the long write up I just had to paint the picture for you of the type of guy I am dealing with.


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## RideOutWear (Feb 27, 2010)

Here is a pic he emailed me


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## RideOutWear (Feb 27, 2010)

Here is another


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## JeridHill (Feb 8, 2006)

If there is a problem with the shirts, the right thing to do is replace them, regardless of the situation of how you got to this point. In order for that to happen, you would need to get the entire order of shirts back. This way he isn't trying to deceive you.


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## PatFinn (Jan 13, 2010)

looks like they were under cured and you shoudl replace them


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## GraphicDisorder (Sep 12, 2010)

Odd he had time to wash them but not pay you, either way they do seem under cured that's some drastic wash away.


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## RideOutWear (Feb 27, 2010)

the thing is is i washed them before i took them to him and had no wash out. as i do most of my orders.

is their nothing he could have done to them to cause something to go wrong? my thing is i'm a small company and for me to do this order over would be a financial burden as i am trying to still get new equipment and advertise. if it is something i done i will do it no problem at all no questions asked, but with all the bad dealings with this guy and i washed them with no problem then we went through them and seen no problems then all of a sudden he tells me this, i just want to make sure it was my fault before i spend the money to re do the order.


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## RideOutWear (Feb 27, 2010)

yea really odd. he must have used the er's laundry room haha


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## JeridHill (Feb 8, 2006)

There is most likely nothing he would have done that could have caused this.

As a side note: I clicked on the link to your site and the front page says: "No Set Up Fees". This might be one reason you are struggling financially. You need to charge. The biggest problem t-shirt printers have is discounting prices to get jobs. Forget the discounts and give excellent service and quality and people will pay fair prices. Lower your price too much and I can guarantee, over time you will regret it.


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## RideOutWear (Feb 27, 2010)

i am not struggling, i just dont want to take a hit like that if its not my fault. and i include the price of a screen and emulsion in my prices but just see a set up fee as something to charge just to get that extra money, what i include in my prices cover the set up of a screen so their is no reason i should charge more than is needed. 

i have printed thousands of shirts and havnt had this happen before nor have i had a complaint. i have had enough returning customers and customer referrals to know i do give them quality and great service along with my low cost. i will most definitely fix this issue with this customer if indeed i find it was under cured. i am going to go over to his place and look at the shirts and make my decision on if it is under cured or not and however many shirts are messed up i'll fix. but i dont trust him as far as i can throw him which aint far, so thats why i am gonna make sure this isnt some BS he is pulling.


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## JeridHill (Feb 8, 2006)

My father was in the hospital the past few weeks and one of the jobs I did I wasn't thinking. It was front and back, 150 piece gray shirt. I ordered short sleeves and they were supposed to be long. I delivered them (30 minutes away) later that afternoon (Thursday), I got a call and she said, these were supposed to be long sleeve. The event was Saturday. I had my sales guy drive 2 1/2 hours to get 150 long sleeve t's and I printed them again that evening and delivered them the next morning. Talk about taking a hit.

I could have possibly talked her into a major discount, but I knew I had to do the right thing. I had to pay $600 more for the shirts and gas for my sales guy and time for him to pick up the shirts. Business isn't always a happy day, but it's business. I can guarantee, I won't lose this customer. That being said, some customers aren't worth keeping and you might possibly have one of those kinds You still do the right thing, but just don't do work for them in the future. It beats risking a bad reputation as a company.


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## RideOutWear (Feb 27, 2010)

i am gonna do the right thing for sure. and you are dead on with him not being worth keeping. i dont care if he agrees to pay triple i would never do work for him again.

if the shirts did infact wash out wouldnt they have done it when i washed them?


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## RideOutWear (Feb 27, 2010)

im not trying to make excuses or anything like that i just really dont trust this dude, and want to know everything that could cause this and things like that before i go over there tomorrow


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## macmiller (Jul 23, 2007)

see if they all washed out, if not you can run them back thru the dryer and should be able to save all that haven't washed out.

It's always the PITA customers that have the most problems w/ their orders. Fix them and forget him, you'll be fine.


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## JeridHill (Feb 8, 2006)

Unless your conveyer dryer started to die out in between jobs, I don't know of any way this could have happened. Very strange to say the least. The only thing I can think of is if he had a job through someone else and they were crap and he is going to show you their work. I wouldn't lead on to believe you would think of this of him, but a way to determine is to get the shirts back and match up your screen or your film to the print. The design could be stretched if you pulled the shirt too much on press, so you would just try to match up the design as best as you could. This way you can determine for sure if they were your shirts or not.


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## RideOutWear (Feb 27, 2010)

didnt think of that i do know he had someone print him some shirts because he tried to add to the order and then he said he would just find someone closer to him to those because of me charging him the design fee. i wouldnt put it past him but i dont think he is doing that.lol.

and i am getting every shirt back if i re do his order.


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## JAF (Oct 12, 2008)

Wow, I must be too honest. I never thought of a customer trying to pawn off someone elses mistake and blame it on me but I guess that could happen. I've never been in this situation but I will keep this in mind.


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## n.signia (Nov 21, 2007)

JeridHill said:


> The only thing I can think of is if he had a job through someone else and they were crap and he is going to show you their work.


This is what I was thinking


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## Gilligan (Dec 11, 2009)

Well, that could be why he was such a PITA with the design, he was trying to make sure you got it JUST like the other guy's work.

Anyone got any idea why he wouldn't have gotten the wash out? I don't know much about t-shirt printing as I am just getting in the business but it seems there is a no one saying anything about one wash could be ok but the 2nd would screw it up.


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## chard (Oct 14, 2008)

just a thought, if the ink washed out during laundry, why would it stick to the other shirts?the ink supposed to be wash away together with the water during laundry??to me it looks like trying to iron the shirt in stack causing the print at the bottom stick to the shirt above..is it possible that he sabotages a few shirt to show you some pics saying your prints screwed up so that he doesnt have to pay the balance?unless he is willing to return all the shirt..or screw up all the shirt..lolz


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## Gilligan (Dec 11, 2009)

Good point, that shouldn't be a "wash" issue.


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## pukingdeserthobo (Jun 3, 2008)

chard said:


> just a thought, if the ink washed out during laundry, why would it stick to the other shirts?the ink supposed to be wash away together with the water during laundry??to me it looks like trying to iron the shirt in stack causing the print at the bottom stick to the shirt above..is it possible that he sabotages a few shirt to show you some pics saying your prints screwed up so that he doesnt have to pay the balance?unless he is willing to return all the shirt..or screw up all the shirt..lolz


what if hes going out with a bang? he did it just so you would replace them knowing it would come out of your pocket.
just a thought


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## IncT (Dec 15, 2009)

We need a name and shame thread. People who not to work for!


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## GraphicDisorder (Sep 12, 2010)

JeridHill said:


> As a side note: I clicked on the link to your site and the front page says: "No Set Up Fees". This might be one reason you are struggling financially. You need to charge.


I am going to have to disagree here, there are many, if not 1000's of screen print shops that do not charge set up fees and are doing great.


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## JeridHill (Feb 8, 2006)

IncT said:


> We need a name and shame thread. People who not to work for!


That's funny, a few years ago, I almost started a website with the same concept. The problem is I figured I'd be up against slandering and liable issues.


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## IncT (Dec 15, 2009)

JeridHill said:


> That's funny, a few years ago, I almost started a website with the same concept. The problem is I figured I'd be up against slandering and liable issues.


It's so almost worth it sometimes!


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## sealove (Oct 1, 2010)

Looks to me like they were under cured. The right thing to do would be to drive to his place as it is only one hour away, don't argue, pick up the defective shirts (every single one defective), re do his order, and then drive to his place again, apologize and deliver the order. Sometimes is better to lose some money than lose your reputation in the market.


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## sealove (Oct 1, 2010)

Call the guy immediately and say you will be picking all the shirts in about 10 minutes or so and re do the job. If he tried to sabotage one or two shirts in order not to pay the balance then he won't have time to do the others.


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## lben (Jun 3, 2008)

I haven't relabeled anything yet, and after reading this thread I'm thinking maybe on each shirt I should put my name somewhere inside. That way they couldn't cheat me. And I would think if you washed them already and the ink stayed put, that it wouldn't come off in a second wash. The damage would happen right away. And if you went through the shirts in front of him and they were fine at that time.. hmmm sounds like he's trying to pull something. If I redid and order I would want all the bad shirts back first. And I would make sure they were mine before I took them back. This guy sounds like a real trip.


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## IncT (Dec 15, 2009)

lben said:


> I haven't relabeled anything yet, and after reading this thread I'm thinking maybe on each shirt I should put my name somewhere inside. That way they couldn't cheat me. And I would think if you washed them already and the ink stayed put, that it wouldn't come off in a second wash. The damage would happen right away. And if you went through the shirts in front of him and they were fine at that time.. hmmm sounds like he's trying to pull something. If I redid and order I would want all the bad shirts back first. And I would make sure they were mine before I took them back. This guy sounds like a real trip.


UV ink or or something similar could be good. You'll only see it under a black-light. Sabotage this!!!


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## sealove (Oct 1, 2010)

Yep, make sure you mark all of your work so you can recognize them. I always use a permanent marker with a thin tip and write initials on the inside of my work. In a discrete place of course.


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## sealove (Oct 1, 2010)

UV sounds like a good idea. I had never thought of that. A good stamp would be really quick. Would the ink be washed away on the first laundry?


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## IncT (Dec 15, 2009)

sealove said:


> UV sounds like a good idea. I had never thought of that. A good stamp would be really quick. Would the ink be washed away on the first laundry?


Not if it's cured I don't reckon!


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## IncT (Dec 15, 2009)

Just some info on the UV ink.


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## RideOutWear (Feb 27, 2010)

i spoke with him earlier i am going over there today. i am gonna check everything, i have learned with this guy expect the unexpected. it still throws me off that i had zero wash out but he had a ton but i will man up and if its on me its on me we will get new shirts if not he may get a foot in his a$$ for all this trouble and not paying lol.


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## jmlampert23 (Nov 7, 2008)

I would replace them but make sure you get the initial order back. that way he is not trying to get 2 for the price of one. i mean he did email you a picture of the shirt but he could have messed one up just to try and get more with out paying.


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## RideOutWear (Feb 27, 2010)

to add to all of it i drove over today after we agreed earlier today that i would be their at 2:30 and he isnt there and wouldnt answer the phone!!


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## Gilligan (Dec 11, 2009)

He's F'ing ya.


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## RideOutWear (Feb 27, 2010)

never in my wildest dreams would i have ever thought i would have to deal with something like this!! he still wont answer the phone i left a message and told him call me by tonight or dont call me again. plain and simple my time is not to be wasted i could be doing something productive.


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## TshirtGuru (Jul 9, 2008)

He could have also ironed the print, and if it's plastisol which it looks like it is, ironing them could have that effect on the print. 

He could have ruined one shirt on purpose and sent you a photo of that one so that he could avoid paying for the rest of the shirts and act like it was your fault for not getting paid. Who knows, people are crazy these days. And lesson to be learned folks, GET PAID upfront.

Edit: What's funny is you're giving that guys company free advertising by placing his shirt on your portfolio. lol


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## RideOutWear (Feb 27, 2010)

yea i am taking it down i thought of that last night. he still hasnt called me or answered. i told him i wanted all the shirts back and ill replace what i find defective, so maybe that made hime not wanna go through with it.


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## MotoskinGraphix (Apr 28, 2006)

Number one question....why are you washing the order? Number two question...why is the ink washing out? Number three question...how could the customer make the end result and why would he?


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## RideOutWear (Feb 27, 2010)

MotoskinGraphix said:


> Number one question....why are you washing the order? Number two question...why is the ink washing out? Number three question...how could the customer make the end result and why would he?



i run my shirts through a wash after print. just something i do. have no answer to your other questions cuz i wish i knew.


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## JAF (Oct 12, 2008)

That was a question that I wanted answered. Why does anyone, screen printer or prom person, wash garments before giving them to the customer? I might do a test sample if it is something different but have never had a promo person was a shirt. Something isn't right with this job.


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## Gilligan (Dec 11, 2009)

I'd send him a certified letter stating that you need to be paid or the merchandise returned. At least if you get the shirts back and they are 100% defective (highly unlikely) you have some test shirts to print on. The other thing is that he has a couple of bad shirts and is keeping the rest scott free because of it (and he probably messed up the shirts).

You could always send a letter with intent to sue. You provided a services/goods. Either pay or return them. End of story. Just make sure every thing you do from here on out is some how documented so you have a case against him.

He will likely back down if you approach it methodically and professionally (certified letter and such.) I have had run ins with Cingular where they were dicking me around until I started making sure to get their ID's and names and let them know I would be getting their full names via a subpoena. I got bumped up to a big manager and he quickly fixed the problem.


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## RideOutWear (Feb 27, 2010)

JAF said:


> That was a question that I wanted answered. Why does anyone, screen printer or prom person, wash garments before giving them to the customer? I might do a test sample if it is something different but have never had a promo person was a shirt. Something isn't right with this job.


it is just something i do with everything i print, rather it be for my apparel company or others. i am trying to make this right with this guy but it keeps getting more and more shady. something isnt right 4 sure but it aint on my end. i said ill man up if its my fault but i am not gonna bow down and just take him another order so he can have two for one!


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## Gilligan (Dec 11, 2009)

Jerk him right back. Tell him as soon as he pays for that order you will print the order again free of charge.

Then disappear like he has. 

But he isn't stupid... he knows what is up because that is his specialty it seems.


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## RideOutWear (Feb 27, 2010)

like others have said i do not want my rep to take a hit i just want to be done with this once and for all!


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## IncT (Dec 15, 2009)

A nice little "mock-up" legal letter could get him to pull his finger from out of his a$$! If not, I'd say just leave it and walk away. If he wants them fixed that bad, then he'll get onto you. Good luck with it, keep us posted because I've been enjoying this thread (and not at your expense).


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## Gilligan (Dec 11, 2009)

RideOutWear said:


> like others have said i do not want my rep to take a hit i just want to be done with this once and for all!


Do you think you are gonna get any referrals from this guy at this point anyway?


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## RideOutWear (Feb 27, 2010)

No and honestly he is so far away I can care less. I don't usually do business where he is anyways. But if it's my fault I wanna make it good. Somehow the longer this goes on the more I think it's not my fault.


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## lben (Jun 3, 2008)

If I was the customer and I paid for shirts and when I got home I found out they were junk, I would want my money back. I would have been knocking on your day that day. Just the fact that you drove all they way there and he didn't have the decency to be there or to even answer the phone says he's being a real jerk about it and probably destroyed the shirts himself.


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## RideOutWear (Feb 27, 2010)

I'm gonna try and throw some legal threats his way tomorrow see if things change. I will keep u guys posted.


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## sealove (Oct 1, 2010)

Be nice and try to keep your good name in the market. Losing your temper might not be a good idea. Be professional. Better say you will ask your lawyer about it than tell the guy you will punch him if he doesnt give your stuff back.


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## Gilligan (Dec 11, 2009)

Agreed... you can get "dirty" while not really getting dirty.


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## pukingdeserthobo (Jun 3, 2008)

i wouldnt go that fare just yet


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## GraphicDisorder (Sep 12, 2010)

IMO your first mistake was not taking full payment up front, or the rest of the payment on delievery of the shirts. But in my opinion doing half down and half when complete is a huge waste in time. I require full payment up front at my shop, and I only get 1-2 people a year bark about that being a problem.


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## sweetts (Apr 4, 2010)

Ask for all the shirts to be returned redry them and reprint them if it's a screw up eat the missing money take a loss and move on. You could just reprint them and call him let him know they are done. If the guy is an *** or not you still should do what's right. Looking at the picture it really looks like an under cured ink issue


Sent from my iPhone using TShirtForums


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## sealove (Oct 1, 2010)

Getting paid up front is a good idea but many customers prefer some sort of insurance you will work their order well and on schedule. I normally get paid about half or 30% and then the remainder when I deliver the order. If the other end doesn't pay then I keep the shirts and the down payment.


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## GraphicDisorder (Sep 12, 2010)

sealove said:


> Getting paid up front is a good idea but many customers prefer some sort of insurance you will work their order well and on schedule. I normally get paid about half or 30% and then the remainder when I deliver the order. If the other end doesn't pay then I keep the shirts and the down payment.


Which leaves you shirts you cant sell, and you probably are barely breaking even at 50% down, you certainly didn't pay for your time. 

Too many shady people out there, I let my businesses rep speak for itself and like I said I only get 1-2 people a year bark about paying up front, they almost always comply and are very satisfied. 

Let me ask you and others this, those of you taking half payments up front and such, do you build in a fee for your time to chase the customer for payment, we all know some people get busy and you have to end up making multiple efforts to get the customers final payment.


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## mikelmorgan (Nov 1, 2008)

The only way I think he could get the ink off the shirt is to have them dry cleaned. I had a customer dry clean his shirts once and return them to me complaining about the quality. He told me he had them dry cleaned and I showed him the label that states do not dry clean. If the order was printed correctly he would have one hell of a time getting the ink to come off. I would replace the shirts, no questions asked. Pick up the bad shirts when I delivered the replacements. Apologize and triple my price next time he orders.


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## sealove (Oct 1, 2010)

I get paid on delivery, what means that the customer will mostly want his merchandise and not lose what he/she has already paid for. I wouldn't want to give someone even 30% and get nothing in return. I have never had problems with it and never had to go after any customers because I always get paid the other half when I deliver the order and never after it and never deliver any merchandise without the remainder full payment.


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## RideOutWear (Feb 27, 2010)

mikelmorgan said:


> The only way I think he could get the ink off the shirt is to have them dry cleaned. I had a customer dry clean his shirts once and return them to me complaining about the quality. He told me he had them dry cleaned and I showed him the label that states do not dry clean. If the order was printed correctly he would have one hell of a time getting the ink to come off. I would replace the shirts, no questions asked. Pick up the bad shirts when I delivered the replacements. Apologize and triple my price next time he orders.


I am trying to do jus that but he won't answer or return calls now. Talk about shady!

And I always get half down and the rest on pick up/delivery. First time I have ever not gotten other half and like I said I know that was my first mistake and it will never happen angain.


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## GraphicDisorder (Sep 12, 2010)

sealove said:


> I get paid on delivery, what means that the customer will mostly want his merchandise and not lose what he/she has already paid for. I wouldn't want to give someone even 30% and get nothing in return. I have never had problems with it and never had to go after any customers because I always get paid the other half when I deliver the order and never after it and never deliver any merchandise without the remainder full payment.


So your saying the second you finish the order, your customer shows up every single time to pay the balance, not a week later/2 weeks later/a month, never multiple phone calls or anything like that. 

Always 1 call, 1 visit, done?

That sounds like a perfect world.


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## RideOutWear (Feb 27, 2010)

Other than this guy I have never had to chase anyone down. They are usually pretty anxious to ge their shirts anyways so when I call them either I bring them to them that day or they come get them that day.


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## IncT (Dec 15, 2009)

GraphicDisorder said:


> So your saying the second you finish the order, your customer shows up every single time to pay the balance, not a week later/2 weeks later/a month, never multiple phone calls or anything like that.
> 
> Always 1 call, 1 visit, done?
> 
> That sounds like a perfect world.


So far for me Its been like that. When I was doing just graphic design for people I had more trouble getting paid then than I do now screen printing. Its amazing how some can't justify paying that much for a piece of artwork even though they are/were well aware of the cost prior. Its definitely not a perfect world, the bad just hasn't hit yet!


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## RideOutWear (Feb 27, 2010)

So yet another day has gone with no response from this guy. Now what would you guys do. Ive tried to ge the shirts so I could fix them but now he will not answer or return calls. Is it time to let it go? What if I say screw it and down the road he starts trying to sue or something crazy like that?


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## Gilligan (Dec 11, 2009)

Certified letter that looks legit and legal.


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## IncT (Dec 15, 2009)

RideOutWear said:


> So yet another day has gone with no response from this guy. Now what would you guys do. Ive tried to ge the shirts so I could fix them but now he will not answer or return calls. Is it time to let it go? What if I say screw it and down the road he starts trying to sue or something crazy like that?


I'd keep track of every attempt to contact him. Phone statements, emails etc. If he say's you never tried to contact him etc, you will have proof. Apart from that, I'd walk away and get on with the next job. No point stressing if Its out of your hands...


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## RideOutWear (Feb 27, 2010)

I am sending out a letter in the morning and I am going to be done. I have all emails and phone calls already documented. 

Have other things to do that involve honest people that also are willing to pay me for my work.


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## IncT (Dec 15, 2009)

RideOutWear said:


> I am sending out a letter in the morning and I am going to be done. I have all emails and phone calls already documented.
> 
> Have other things to do that involve honest people that also are willing to pay me for my work.


That's good mate, concentrate on the things worth doing!


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## VinylHanger (Jul 16, 2010)

I assume you have already called and left a less than nice phone call. We had a sales manager who was a master when dealing with these types of folks. He would make one very nice call, give it a day or two, then make a not so nice call. Then if he didn't hear anything he would call and threaten the customer with a small claims filing. The secret is that if you get to the third call, you are not nice about it, you aren't "asking" them to deal with it, you are now "telling" them to deal with it. This seemed to always work.

The customer would come in and one of two things would happen. They would come in and we would talk with them and take care of it and they would feel better, or they would come in with guns blazing and if they wouldn't calm down we would tell them in no uncertain terms that we tried to remedy the situation and since they refused to give us a chance, we no longer needed their business. We also would let them know we would be filing with the court. 

It would usually be a couple of days later when we would either get a check in the mail, or they would come in and apologize, at which point we would take care of the problem and usually keep a customer. If not, then we had a good story for the shop when they went storming out. Of course, we preferred the first scenario.


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## RespecttheCraft (Feb 19, 2010)

RideOutWear said:


> I am sending out a letter in the morning and I am going to be done. I have all emails and phone calls already documented.
> 
> Have other things to do that involve honest people that also are willing to pay me for my work.


Thats what I wouldve done. He sounds very shady. (happened to goto the ER the exact time he was supposed to pay you..?) He sounds liek the type of person that might have realized he made a design mistake or didnt have the money to pay so he tried to put the blame on you... if he didnt find anythign on initial inspection he may have iron the ink or dry cleaned to mess up a few shirts and blame it on you.


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## GraphicDisorder (Sep 12, 2010)

IncT said:


> So far for me Its been like that. When I was doing just graphic design for people I had more trouble getting paid then than I do now screen printing. Its amazing how some can't justify paying that much for a piece of artwork even though they are/were well aware of the cost prior. Its definitely not a perfect world, the bad just hasn't hit yet!


Thats sounds awesome. 

For me when my company was younger I used to take 50% down for any design work/print work. 50% when completed. 

I found myself waiting on them to "get the money", "I lost my job", "I wrecked my car", and so on. Sure not all the time, and I did always get paid, but did more than a few times have to "chase" the payment. I dont have that sort of time. So these days, pay in full up front, or find someone else. To me thats been a way smoother process. 

Just my opinion from doing it both ways.


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## emictool (Jul 1, 2010)

If the guy made such a result intentionally, let it be. But if it is your responsibility, you should undertake it, sometimes we can not avoid some mistakes coming.


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## RideOutWear (Feb 27, 2010)

emictool said:


> If the guy made such a result intentionally, let it be. But if it is your responsibility, you should undertake it, sometimes we can not avoid some mistakes coming.


I have been making attempts to fix it. I was honestly to the point after some post on here I was gonna fix it just to get past it. But now no answer no call back do I'm done. 

Yes I have made many of calls that are very nasty!! And if the $100 he owes me is worth him faking all this or whatever he has done if anything then it's on him no me!


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## emictool (Jul 1, 2010)

RideOutWear said:


> I have been making attempts to fix it. I was honestly to the point after some post on here I was gonna fix it just to get past it. But now no answer no call back do I'm done.
> 
> Yes I have made many of calls that are very nasty!! And if the $100 he owes me is worth him faking all this or whatever he has done if anything then it's on him no me!


 Try to get the payment with patience and heartsease. If not get it, just take it as one lesson


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## MotoskinGraphix (Apr 28, 2006)

Its a hundred bucks and a bad print.....time to let it go.


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## RideOutWear (Feb 27, 2010)

MotoskinGraphix said:


> Its a hundred bucks and a bad print.....time to let it go.


maybe it is a bad print or maybe this deuche bag got some free shirts by messing up one or two. and maybe tou you its just $100 but to someone trying to get my business off the ground im willing to fight for that $100!


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## MotoskinGraphix (Apr 28, 2006)

You lost the minute you gave the work away without payment. Run his card if you have it, if not, why not?


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## RideOutWear (Feb 27, 2010)

i know that was my first mistake, i have said that many times. that was the first time i did that and is the last. and like i said i am a small company trying to build. i work from my garage i have no storefront(yet, working on it as we speak) and i dont accept credit cards other than paypal, so i have no way to run his card. sucks but really other than threatening him legally or taking him to court which will cost more than $100 i have no way of making me pay. but you live and learn just gotta learn from these mistakes i guess.


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## Gilligan (Dec 11, 2009)

Taking him to small claims court won't cost THAT much but close... just a filing fee.


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## Surface Interval (May 16, 2009)

I think the sending of a letter with the intent to take him to court will be fine. Just make sure you also mention you will also be suing for the fee you will be paying to take him to court. 

Secondly, this will be considered a business loss on your taxes. Sucky, but true-and it only helps you out months from now. 

And I hear you on the value of $100 being relative to the person who lost it. It is clear that $100 is a lot of money for you to just give away to this guy or you would not be posting about how to be fair and get it back. 

Do you have an iPhone or SmartPhone? they have a PayPal app for iPhone. This way next time you do a meet up, you can say, lets get your paypal transaction now. It is just as secure. (I have one for my iPhone and have used it). Then you can get the customer their items and immediately have your payment.


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## RideOutWear (Feb 27, 2010)

Surface Interval said:


> I think the sending of a letter with the intent to take him to court will be fine. Just make sure you also mention you will also be suing for the fee you will be paying to take him to court.
> 
> Secondly, this will be considered a business loss on your taxes. Sucky, but true-and it only helps you out months from now.
> 
> ...


yes i do have an iphone and have that app and it never crossed my mind to do that! wish i woulda thought of it.


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## DNeeld (Sep 8, 2010)

RideOutWear said:


> its just $100 but to someone trying to get my business off the ground im willing to fight for that $100!


You've already lost at least that amount in lost productivity chasing this. If you go to court, you will pay at least that much just to get the case heard. Even in your prevail, there is no certainty he'll pay and you'll spend even more time (which all equals lost productivity) trying to get wage garnishments.

There comes a time to realize you got screwed and move on. This kind of pride has no place in business.


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## JAF (Oct 12, 2008)

I'm of the "principle of the thing" thought process. I have a guy that has not picked up his merchandise from last November, almost one year ago. I've been more than patient but I want my money. He was a friend of a friend and I trusted him to pick up the merchandise and pay when he picked up....big mistake. I don't care how long this takes me, I will persue him until I get my money.
Small claims court is a joke, in my opinion. Been there on another issue. Never got my money.


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## Gilligan (Dec 11, 2009)

JAF said:


> I'm of the "principle of the thing" thought process.


Here here!


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## RideOutWear (Feb 27, 2010)

I am split as I agree I have cost myself money and time worrying and chasing him around. And it will cost me more to take it to court. And i do feel like giving in but on the other hand I don't want him to get free stuff!


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## Surface Interval (May 16, 2009)

Is he the owner of the business that you printed for?

Is there someone else in the heirarchy you can go to? 

Google is your friend. 

Find the number of the shop and talk to someone else ie: accounts payables and say that you understand there "may be" a problem with the print and you need to get all shirts accounted for so you can replace them in order to send a payment due invoice. Can he/she help you, please?


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## Solmu (Aug 15, 2005)

A lot of people have perplexedly asked _why_ on earth you would wash the shirts before sending them out, but what few people have flat out said is that you _*shouldn't be*_ washing them.

It's _possible_ that all of this happened because the guy tried to iron the shirts you washed to try and make them look new again.


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## RideOutWear (Feb 27, 2010)

Surface Interval said:


> Is he the owner of the business that you printed for?
> 
> Is there someone else in the heirarchy you can go to?
> 
> ...


He is the owner.


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## RideOutWear (Feb 27, 2010)

Solmu said:


> A lot of people have perplexedly asked _why_ on earth you would wash the shirts before sending them out, but what few people have flat out said is that you _*shouldn't be*_ washing them.
> 
> It's _possible_ that all of this happened because the guy tried to iron the shirts you washed to try and make them look new again.


He may have I am going to stop washing them since it seems it is a dumb idea lol. Bu this is the first time it may have been a problem. Lesson learned though I guess. 

I sent out my letter today so we will see what that does.


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## Surface Interval (May 16, 2009)

RideOutWear said:


> He is the owner.


Is he a one person operation? Surely he has an accounts payable. 

Not trying to aggravate you, only find another way to get to the other side of the mountain.


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## RideOutWear (Feb 27, 2010)

Surface Interval said:


> Is he a one person operation? Surely he has an accounts payable.
> 
> Not trying to aggravate you, only find another way to get to the other side of the mountain.


No aggravating me at all. He is a small company that I know of he is the only owner. Unless my letter scares him I think he may have pulled one I've on me this time.


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## PrintsCharming (Jan 21, 2009)

Some times you have to swallow your pride in business. you win some you loose some. learn from your mistakes. If I were the guy I would not have accepted the shirts once I'd seen they been washed. It is un professional to loose your cool. If you take the right action you should never have to get verbal with a customer. If you get so heated over a $100, what are you going to do when it's a $1500 mistake and your working out of your garage? Chances are this is not the last time your going to get burned. Also if your not willing to deliver an hour away, don't accept the work.


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## RideOutWear (Feb 27, 2010)

PrintsCharming said:


> Some times you have to swallow your pride in business. you win some you loose some. learn from your mistakes. If I were the guy I would not have accepted the shirts once I'd seen they been washed. It is un professional to loose your cool. If you take the right action you should never have to get verbal with a customer. If you get so heated over a $100, what are you going to do when it's a $1500 mistake and your working out of your garage? Chances are this is not the last time your going to get burned. Also if your not willing to deliver an hour away, don't accept the work.


just because i work from home means nothing! what does it matter where im doing it as long as i have the right equipment where i do the work doesnt matter. and i wil deliver 2 hours away if they let me know ahead of time i have no problem with it. you must not have read what a pain this guy was so after he was an a$$ i simply told him no i am not delivering them.


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## PrintsCharming (Jan 21, 2009)

easy buddy....


RideOutWear said:


> and like i said i am a small company trying to build. i work from my garage


it doesn't matter where you work from, i'm simply saying what if it's $1,500 and your trying to build your business


RideOutWear said:


> Then he starts telling me he wants me to bring him the shirts.(he is an hour away) I said no he complained about it so to just shut him up I agreed to meet half way.


Does it say on your website if the customer is an a$$ you wont deliver? And yes I read the whole thread. The guy was a huge pain and then you let him walk off with free product. And all this could be your fault because the shirts were not properly cured.


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## RideOutWear (Feb 27, 2010)

No but I say what I do and don't do. He was telling me I was "going to bring him his shirts today" those were his exact words so hell no I didn't bring him his shirts I met him in my town but I wasn't about to drive that far for him! And if it is that I undercured them y all this shadyness and not answering or calling me back when all I want is to come get the shirts. I bet if I called and left a message that said hey I reprinted your entire order I'm gonna bring it to u today he would call me back asap. But no he won't call back bc I said I want the order so I can go through and redo what is bad. 

And sorry I misunderstood the garage comment. You are right if it was $1500 it would crush me! Everything I make goes on new supplies and equipment.


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## sister1 (Jun 16, 2008)

This could have happened if the guy washed them and threw them in the dryer on high heat. Or he could have messed them up with an iron. Or they could just be undercured.

I do work for several area fire departments. One of the firemen came in last week to have some shirt made up, and mentioned that some (not all) of the last batch I printed for his department were washing out at the edges. I promptly told him to find out exactly the quantity and sizes I need to replace. When I looked up the order, it had been delivered 10 months ago. I don't care, he's a good customer, and has brought me other business, so if I have to cough up $50 for some new shirts, I'm going to do it.

I've also had PITA customers. Haven't really been burned too badly, but there have been a couple of customers who I never want to see again. You CAN fire your customers, but you can do it in a way that doesn't create backlash for you. I would have apologized profusely for not being able to fill his rush order, and recommended another shop he might try. Let him be someone else's headache! Too late for that now, and I know how hard it is to lose money, but I would probably just reprint the shirts, deliver them myself, and not leave without the rest of the money. At least that way I cover the cost of goods. He feels like an idiot (and can't tell anyone anything bad about me, because I went out of my way to make it right), and I never see him again. And I get to feel self-righteous -- it's a winning situation all the way around!

Also, I agree with all who questioned washing the shirts ahead of time -- it makes people suspicious that you are giving them used merchandise.


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## RideOutWear (Feb 27, 2010)

I have made several attempts of contact, email, calls, letter still no response. i am not gonna reprint something for someone acting so suspicious. i was goinna do exactly as you said reprint bring them to him and get both money and damged goods for some test shirts. that way i dont lose to much on he deal. but with no response for this long i have put it in my lessons learned book and moved on. i have been doing a lot of business lately and moving right along with no stress from this order.


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## mikelmorgan (Nov 1, 2008)

If you have tried to make it right and he does not want to talk to you. Let it go and go on with more profitable business. Weather it is $100 or $10,000 don't let it destroy you and your business at the same time. As far as the people who fight for the principle of the matter, fight on. I did a friend a favor one time and it cost me $25k, he paid back $10k. I tried for 3 years to get him to pay me back. It consumed my life, My wife could not sleep, it cause stress between her and I so we finally decided that we could not get blood from a turnip and sending him to court would not get my money back. I forgave him and quit worrying about the money. That was 7 years ago that we dropped the issue. Would I like to have the money? Absolutely! But I let it go and continued to work on my business. I promise I won't make the same mistake again. $15k is a lot of forgiveness, but don't think I have forgotten it. Do what you have to do, then go on to the next thing. Good luck.


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## Mabuzi (Jul 3, 2007)

*Take payment upfront*. Charge setup fees!!!
Please remember for all the hundereds of good customers there is always one with issues. Dont let the one egg spoil your day.
Do the right thing and either ditch him (thats what I would do).


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## RideOutWear (Feb 27, 2010)

i just recieved an email from him saying if i dont have his fixed shirts by moinday i will be in court explaining myself. so i responded with made many attepts at contact, and to resolve this issue. and instead of fixing his issue which i have a feeling if i reprint the shirts he will find something wrong and do this again i told him i want all the shirts back and i will issue a refund of his 50% deposit on the order.
i will eat the cost of those shirts and give him his refund and have me some test shirts. that way there are no further issues.


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## Surface Interval (May 16, 2009)

If he was to pay the remainder in full would you do the run of shirts again?


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## GraphicDisorder (Sep 12, 2010)

RideOutWear said:


> i just recieved an email from him saying if i dont have his fixed shirts by moinday i will be in court explaining myself. so i responded with made many attepts at contact, and to resolve this issue. and instead of fixing his issue which i have a feeling if i reprint the shirts he will find something wrong and do this again i told him i want all the shirts back and i will issue a refund of his 50% deposit on the order.
> i will eat the cost of those shirts and give him his refund and have me some test shirts. that way there are no further issues.


Given where you are at now with this, I would say this is not only the smartest way out, but cheapest as well. You will not have to buy the shirts again, you will not have to do the labor to set up your press and print them again, and you will not have to deal with the next possible problem. 

I would only refund him for the shirts he puts in your hands though, if he shows up 4 short, then thats 4 less hes getting a refund on. So on and so forth.

He if demands a reprint, tell him you no longer wish to do business with him. 

Meanwhile if you do get the shirts back, try to figure out what happened. Also document it with images how you recieved them and such. Just in case.


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## RideOutWear (Feb 27, 2010)

No after all this bs and the not answering and then he sends a email saying he wants to take me to court. I just have a bad gut feeling if I do his shirts again he will try and pull something else and it will screw me in the end. I didn't go off my gut in the begining with this guy and look where I'm at. So I will go with it this time so I can continue my business growth.


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## RideOutWear (Feb 27, 2010)

GraphicDisorder said:


> Given where you are at now with this, I would say this is not only the smartest way out, but cheapest as well. You will not have to buy the shirts again, you will not have to do the labor to set up your press and print them again, and you will not have to deal with the next possible problem.
> 
> I would only refund him for the shirts he puts in your hands though, if he shows up 4 short, then thats 4 less hes getting a refund on. So on and so forth.
> 
> ...


Yes I plan to do that


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## Surface Interval (May 16, 2009)

Good thing you started documenting your contact attempts after beginning this thread!! I bet he didn't do that, so when Judge Judy stares at him and asks him for his proof and he doesn't have it ....!!


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## RideOutWear (Feb 27, 2010)

exactly. im deciding if i want to let him take me to court or just give him his refund. i talked to a couple people today and even if he brings in some f'd up shirts is that not a case to where if you order from someone it your own risk of quality. im starting to think like him and i wanna put him through what he put me through. callin me saying one thing and when i try to be nice no answer. so maybe i'll do a little revenge.


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## GraphicDisorder (Sep 12, 2010)

RideOutWear said:


> exactly. im deciding if i want to let him take me to court or just give him his refund. i talked to a couple people today and even if he brings in some f'd up shirts is that not a case to where if you order from someone it your own risk of quality. im starting to think like him and i wanna put him through what he put me through. callin me saying one thing and when i try to be nice no answer. so maybe i'll do a little revenge.


Odds are low he'd actually take you to court. But odds are he will do most of his damage via word of mouth, not directly to your wallet.


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## mikelmorgan (Nov 1, 2008)

A pissed off customer tells everyone he comes in contact with. A happy one only tells a few.


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## DNeeld (Sep 8, 2010)

RideOutWear said:


> so maybe i'll do a little revenge.


Come on. 

You've made good faith arrangements, tried to do the right and proper thing. Its past time to let it go. Leave the refund offer standing for shirts he returns and move on. He can't take you to court, and even if he does, he cannot prevail beyond what you are already offering.

Don't you have a business to run? If so, then move on and run it.


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## RideOutWear (Feb 27, 2010)

haha sorry just got off the phone with him right before i posted that. finally talked with him and it wasnt nice. he just keeps saying court court court. so if thats what he wants lets do it i have nothing to hide and i have offered to do the right thing so lets go to court


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## Gilligan (Dec 11, 2009)

Good on ya! Let him try to take it to court. What is worst case? you have to give him all of his money back... woopedeedoo! 

I was gonna say that if he does bring back any shirts that I would refund him those shirts AFTER you deduct full price for the ones he's keeping. So even if he brings back HALF the shirts messed up then it is a wash because he would still owe you half for the half that was in fine quality. 

I wouldn't refund him anything if he won't pay you in full for what he already possesses in full!


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## RideOutWear (Feb 27, 2010)

My only fear about court is if he was to win I would also have to pay the court cost. I am willing to give a refund now so if that's what he wins in court big deal but to add the court cost to that would suck. But I don't see him winning. 
And I am not refunding anything without the shirts. And if he brings me half the shirts half Is what he will get! I'm sick of playing his games I have others who aren't pita's that I am taking care of and aren't making my life hell so I'll take care of his issue when I half to. I am more busy right now than I have ever been so I'm not gonna let this guy waste my time anymore.


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## Gilligan (Dec 11, 2009)

Try to record the fact that you have offered to give him back his money.

I would think if he wins and that is what the court would award him then you could prove that you already offered that and that court was unnecessary so that might get you out of paying court cost. Just because he wins doesn't always mean you have to pay court cost. I've seen times where they would say "you didn't HAVE to take it to court" and not award them court cost.


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## Gilligan (Dec 11, 2009)

Also don't forget... this forum is also admissible to show your intentions have been pure.


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## RideOutWear (Feb 27, 2010)

i am moving on for good if he wants to take it to court so be it i have offered him what i offered i am not going to give in and give him a second order of shirts and get screwed over again. i have all the records to show i tried to contact him and do the right thing. and i do know that this is submittable in court.


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## IncT (Dec 15, 2009)

Let the games begin! Court shouldn't be that expensive if held at a small claims tribunal. I can't see him winning though, how would he? Best you put on your best boots cos you got some a$$ kicking to do! Good luck.


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## Surface Interval (May 16, 2009)

We wish you luck. Use those cool Post-It Flags to help make the Judges job easier and highlight important stuff so (s)he doesn't have to dig through the mountain of papers. You can also print your phone logs in addition to your handwritten call logs as verification that you aren't just making up the phone call logs for them to cross check.


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## RideOutWear (Feb 27, 2010)

thanks everyone


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## uncletee (Feb 25, 2007)

Don't keep him!! good luck uncletee.


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## RideOutWear (Feb 27, 2010)

He's starting to back off a little since I'm standing my ground. I told him once we went through them and he took them home and then he waited a day to tell me something was wrong and that's after all my request for the money he owes me. Once he pulled that they are his shirts not mine.


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## RideOutWear (Feb 27, 2010)

Here's what he is saying now. He still hasn't filed court papers he is just still emailing me. 

1. Under the advice of my lawyer I will not speak on the phone with you. Any business man knows in a situation like this you only email. 

2. He is denying we went through the shirts. He says he only seen the top shirt. 

3. He saying he will sue for lost income, damages, and court fees. 

4. He now has changed his story his girlfriend was the original washer but now it is his business partner. 

5. Everything on the shirts are poor quality now and they look terrible. (my reply was if they loom that bad you would have seen that when we went through them.)


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## pukingdeserthobo (Jun 3, 2008)

you should also say your suing for lost income, damages,mental stress and court fees.


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## RideOutWear (Feb 27, 2010)

I did and I think that's why he hasn't filed court papers yet.


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## Gilligan (Dec 11, 2009)

He's bluffing.

He won't get any of that extra stuff anyway. He's worried that he will have to pay full price for what he has now probably.


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## Surface Interval (May 16, 2009)

He has changed "girlfriend" to "business partner" because it sounds more professional. 

His "lawyer" is probably "legaladviceforfree.com" or yahoo answers or equivilent....Not that there is anything wrong with that, sometimes you can find good advice. (like on Tshirt Forums!!)

Also, I highly doubt it would be worthwhile for him to pay the fees of a lawyer to take someone to small claims court.


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## RideOutWear (Feb 27, 2010)

Well he seems to think I will have to pay all those fees including lawyer. But I can careless I have nothing to hide I'll go in without a lawyer. And even If I were to lose no one makes you pay when you lose in civil court.


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## greenroompress (Sep 2, 2009)

You should get a temp gun to make sure your shirts are fully cured. You can get one for about $25 at Harbor Freight. I tested this cheap gun vs. a $100 gun and found that both are within a couple of degrees. 

It sounds like this guy just isn't worth working with at all.

Good Luck


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## RideOutWear (Feb 27, 2010)

greenroompress said:


> You should get a temp gun to make sure your shirts are fully cured. You can get one for about $25 at Harbor Freight. I tested this cheap gun vs. a $100 gun and found that both are within a couple of degrees.
> 
> It sounds like this guy just isn't worth working with at all.
> 
> Good Luck


i have a temp gun and it is from harbor freight lol


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## RideOutWear (Feb 27, 2010)

GSwag said:


> I would ask for them all back so you can inspect them yourself. With someone who complains that much I would have went back home with the shirt. Its always good to have a virtual terminal so if something like that happens you can hit his card on the spot....


I am a small business I work from my house. All I can afford is the equipment I have. I do not even accept credit cards unless it's through paypal. I did try to get the shirts back he wouldn't answer the phone or call me back.


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## Surface Interval (May 16, 2009)

I was wondering how things were going for you?


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## mom22boys (Oct 15, 2010)

I also thought I would check to see what happened with this....mess.. lol


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## jshhsr (Aug 3, 2010)

I do mainly signs and graphics, but I had a similar situation this summer, this guy got me for $1800. I've been to small claims court and have judgements but still haven't got my money. I'm a freshman in college and I learned my lesson from this deal. anyway, find where you can search court records for your county and see if he or his company has been sued before, the guy I sued I found out that he had 3 or 4 other lawsuits for not paying vendors, I wish I knew that before I took on the work.


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## RideOutWear (Feb 27, 2010)

i have not recieved any court papers or any more crazy emails. so hopefully it is dead and over with. lesson learned


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## Vizual Voice (Feb 1, 2008)

Some day when I'm in a better mood I'll relate the story of how I got burned on a $50,000 job my first year in business.

Yes, that was fifty _thousand_.


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## Embroidthis2200 (May 30, 2008)

Maybe he is back in the "ER"


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## lben (Jun 3, 2008)

Vizual Voice said:


> Some day when I'm in a better mood I'll relate the story of how I got burned on a $50,000 job my first year in business.
> 
> Yes, that was fifty _thousand_.


Oh, I couldn't imagine. I think for an order that big I'd want it in cash up front. I can picture overdraft checks, or bad credit cards here. I hope you'll be in a better mood soon because I'd certainly like to know what to watch out for.


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## Gilligan (Dec 11, 2009)

Vizual Voice said:


> Some day when I'm in a better mood I'll relate the story of how I got burned on a $50,000 job my first year in business.
> 
> Yes, that was fifty _thousand_.


<assumes Bush Jr. impression> Heh, that's Thousand with a "T" heh heh!


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## Mtnview (Nov 5, 2009)

jshhsr said:


> I've been to small claims court and have judgements but still haven't got my money.



On my way to small claims in a few hours for non-payment by a client.


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## RideOutWear (Feb 27, 2010)

Vizual Voice said:


> Some day when I'm in a better mood I'll relate the story of how I got burned on a $50,000 job my first year in business.
> 
> Yes, that was fifty _thousand_.


 want to hear your storry!!!




Embroidthis2200 said:


> Maybe he is back in the "ER"


 lmao!!!!!




Mtnview said:


> On my way to small claims in a few hours for non-payment by a client.


i was going to take this guy to small claims, but i figured its $100 and i would spend money going to court and like stated above he probably wouldnt pay me still. i look at it as i learned good business lessons through this guy and since this mess i have been doin well! one main lesson was trust your gut!


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## tgoeltz (Aug 7, 2007)

I had a women go way over 90 days in paying for a sign. After several unanswered messages I left one saying that "unfortunately I would have to decline orders coming from her organization". Three days later I received a check and a letter of apology. I believe the thought that I might mention her non-payment to others in her group shamed her into paying up.


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## DNeeld (Sep 8, 2010)

I saw this on another forum. Cracks me up everytime:


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## RideOutWear (Feb 27, 2010)

DNeeld said:


> I saw this on another forum. Cracks me up everytime:



glad my misfortunes amuse you


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## DNeeld (Sep 8, 2010)

RideOutWear said:


> glad my misfortunes amuse you


Only because we've all been there before


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## Mtnview (Nov 5, 2009)

Mtnview said:


> On my way to small claims in a few hours for non-payment by a client.


Anti-climatic. After all my preparations to make sure we looked good in court they didn't show.


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## jshhsr (Aug 3, 2010)

Mtnview said:


> Anti-climatic. After all my preparations to make sure we looked good in court they didn't show.


yea but at least you got a judgement right? now you just have to collect and they can't deny they owe you money.


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## Mtnview (Nov 5, 2009)

jshhsr said:


> yea but at least you got a judgement right? now you just have to collect and they can't deny they owe you money.


That's right. 21 days to pay in full or provide a reason to us and the court why not and also provide a bank account number for possible garnishment. This is another business so as far as garnishment of the bank account goes not sure how that works but it looks like there is an option to seize property if they don't pay in full within 21 days. Personally, I think they may be more likely to pay if it looks like we could be seizing property.


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## Mtnview (Nov 5, 2009)

I probably should start another thread. I don't want to hijack RideOutWear's thread but thought some could use our experience with small claims.


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## jshhsr (Aug 3, 2010)

sorry RideOutWear, not to hijack your thread, but in reply to John, its amazing how people find the money when there's a court order involved.


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## Ultrachaz (Nov 4, 2010)

Get the shirts back and look at them first. This guy sounds like a piece of work.


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## RideOutWear (Feb 27, 2010)

Mtnview said:


> I probably should start another thread. I don't want to hijack RideOutWear's thread but thought some could use our experience with small claims.


no worries post away!!!



Ultrachaz said:


> Get the shirts back and look at them first. This guy sounds like a piece of work.


tried it when it first started he wouldnt answer the phone or emails. then about 2 weeks later he emailed me saying its my fault i wouldnt fix the problem blah blah blah. i honestly think it was a scam that he lost control of when i started saying ok ill get them and fix whats messed up.


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## RideOutWear (Feb 27, 2010)

DNeeld said:


> Only because we've all been there before


its a good thing to go through kinda i guess..lol..teaches you a lot


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## Gilligan (Dec 11, 2009)

Great job John! Keep em honest!!


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