# What are your thoughts on FOREVER Subli-Light (first hand experience only)



## Brandonttech (Jan 17, 2020)

I LOVE the idea of sublimating onto cotton. Mainly because i want to make onesies and cotton is the most breathable fabric for babies. BUT its hard finding reviews of FOREVER Subli-Light with this being such a new thing. Also i can tell there are A Lot of hate/biases against cotton sublimation. I'm wondering if people just haven't been trying the new technology and still have old opinions, or if cotton sublimation is fine only for hobbies and not for business purposes.


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## PedalJustPedal (Nov 26, 2019)

So you think cotton is more breathable for babies? There is your first mistake.
Second maybe there is a reason there are not reviews for Forever or any of the other so called solutions to dye sub on cotton. You would be lightyears ahead using Vapors Onesies.


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## Brandonttech (Jan 17, 2020)

PedalJustPedal said:


> So you think cotton is more breathable for babies? There is your first mistake.
> Second maybe there is a reason there are not reviews for Forever or any of the other so called solutions to dye sub on cotton. You would be lightyears ahead using Vapors Onesies.



What would you say is more breathable? Also I googled vapors onesies and im not 100% sure what you meant by your last comment. Is it a way to make a shirt or a website? I found both haha.


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## PedalJustPedal (Nov 26, 2019)

Cotton is not breathable. There is a reason virtually every sports attire is NOT cotton. Now even sheets, pillowcases etc are moving off of cotton. Vapor Apparel is probably the top dye sub apparel manufacturer and have onesies.


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## sublial (Mar 24, 2011)

The reason you aren,t seeing cotton as much is because it is less costly to make shirts with plastic recycled soda bottles. And who ever said polyester is more breathable? The New athletic manufacturers conning the gullable customers. You couldn,t give polyester apparel away years ago. Why because it is to hot to wear.
AL


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## PedalJustPedal (Nov 26, 2019)

sublial said:


> The reason you aren,t seeing cotton as much is because it is less costly to make shirts with plastic recycled soda bottles. And who ever said polyester is more breathable? The New athletic manufacturers conning the gullable customers. You couldn,t give polyester apparel away years ago. Why because it is to hot to wear.
> AL


How long have you been in this business as your information is so incorrect it makes one wonder. First, cotton shirts are much much less expensive then a moisture wicking poly shirt. Add to that if you want to be green and get a poly shirt made from recycled plastic it will cost you even more. New athletic manufacturers? 95% of all sports apparel is poly now. Why? Because it breathes. You truly are void of facts and stating such does nothing but misinform new people.


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## WalkingZombie (Mar 15, 2014)

I regret not reading this post when it was first posted, but you noted "first hand experience only", so I stayed away LOL.



Brandonttech said:


> I LOVE the idea of sublimating onto cotton. Mainly because i want to make onesies and cotton is the most breathable fabric for babies. BUT its hard finding reviews of FOREVER Subli-Light with this being such a new thing. Also i can tell there are A Lot of hate/biases against cotton sublimation. I'm wondering if people just haven't been trying the new technology and still have old opinions, or if cotton sublimation is fine only for hobbies and not for business purposes.


There's nothing wrong with these dyesub-to-cotton transfers. People just get upset when others believe it's true sublimation when it's not. It's the same concept as using Heat Transfers for cotton, except the dyesub-to-cotton transfers sublimate the inks to the transfer fibers and then the transfer adheres to the cotton, whereas, Heat Transfers use pigment inks (recommended) to dye the transfer fibers and then the transfer adheres to the cotton.

The only difference is the dyesub inks permanently adhere to the transfer's fibers, whereas, the pigment ink does not, and over time pigment transfers will fade. Well, another difference is most Heat Transfers need to be trimmed and the light dyesub-to-cotton transfers don't.

But they BOTH use a transfer that adheres to the cotton. Whether one lasts longer than the other (long term), is still in the air. Depends how the garments are washed. Although, I use JetPro Soft Stretch with pigments inks and have created many designs for my wife's shirts and still look great, well after a year.

Sidenote: Most of these dyesub-to-cotton transfers (that I've read), recommend using Vector art only; not Raster. Dyesub-to-cotton transfers have trouble transferring raster gradients or lighter color areas. They need full-toned colors. Regular Heat Transfers can use Vector and/or Raster art and transfer with no problem.

As far as your concern for the breathability for babies, cotton is the best choice. MOST babies don't drown in sweat, so they don't need polyester to wick sweat away. And if a baby was to sweat in a polyester onesie, I bet they'll be cold because MOST polyester has a tight knit, which will keep the sweat close to its body. It's not like they are out running around where the sweat can wick out and dry fast. LOL



PedalJustPedal said:


> So you think cotton is more breathable for babies? There is your first mistake.
> Second maybe there is a reason there are not reviews for Forever or any of the other so called solutions to dye sub on cotton. You would be lightyears ahead using Vapors Onesies.


First off, MOST cotton is more breathable than polyester. Depends on the knit used, but cotton has a more open knit than almost ANY polyester.



PedalJustPedal said:


> Cotton is not breathable. There is a reason virtually every sports attire is NOT cotton. Now even sheets, pillowcases etc are moving off of cotton. Vapor Apparel is probably the top dye sub apparel manufacturer and have onesies.


Secondly, again, cotton IS breathable. The reason sports teams moved to polyester jerseys is because they stretch helluva lot more than cotton and cotton/poly jerseys, they are lighter in weight and they wick the sweat away from the body to the outside, therefore, dries faster. Cotton on the other hand, is heavier and when you sweat, it absorbs the sweat instead of wicking it out, and dries a lot slower and makes the jersey heavier. Believe me, I still have original baseball jerseys that were 100% cotton and when I used to sweat, woowee it was harder to move, got hotter and felt heavier. I also have these newer polyester authentic jerseys, and they are awesome. The only negative is they can freaking snag and rip easy. The older jerseys started to transition to open holes in the cotton/poly, and now they are like an open-knit mesh polyester to help with breathability.

I believe the reason people think they are more breathable than cotton, is because when you sweat, it keeps you cool, so you think air is flowing through the garment when in fact it's your sweat touching the skin. LOL


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## LancerFlorida (Mar 20, 2018)

" i can tell there are A Lot of hate/biases against cotton sublimation"
As Walking Zombie explained, if we can't stay true to the lexicon or dictionary, how can there be meaningful discussion of any kind? 

Sublimation is the fusing of the ink into the polyester fiber...a permanate, last forever outcome.
AND...and this is real important. sublimation results in NO HAND.
Those who chatter about sublimating on cotton lose those attributes that make sublimation so incredibly desirable. How many characteristics of sublimation must be lost before it is recognized as an imposter?

My experieince with FOREVER SUBLI and other suggested solutions delivered a product that failed in every way to meet my expectations. So the 'hate' you suggest is the product of repeated disappointment, and the head-slap that follows, "I should have known better. IT IS NOT SUBLIMATION!"

Now YMMV and your expectations and needs much different than mine. So go buy some stuff, press it and wear it about and let us know of your experience.....before to impose the outcome on a helpless child.

And let me add point #3. Poly garments do not absorb sweat. So after wearing the tee for a year and running 25 miles a week, it does not smell like a lost sock in the locker room. Cotton will absorb and retain odor and as soon as the heat RH increases, you know you are wearing a stinky shirt.

WE all have different expectations. For you Faux Poly may be perfectly acceptable and honestly, I hope that it does and you can start providing product in which you can take pride. After all, infants are not going to put the garment to much of a test.


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## sublial (Mar 24, 2011)

PS, My White Sublimation Printers process to Dark cotton shirts is sublimated ONTO not into dark cotton shirts.
And Cotton is breathable more so then polyester.
I use to print 20 to 40,000 cotton shirts a month.
AL


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## PedalJustPedal (Nov 26, 2019)

sublial said:


> PS, My White Sublimation Printers process to Dark cotton shirts is sublimated ONTO not into dark cotton shirts.
> And Cotton is breathable more so then polyester.
> I use to print 20 to 40,000 cotton shirts a month.
> AL


key word is "use". Tell me how breathable a cotton shirt is soaked in sweat?


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## splathead (Dec 4, 2005)

PedalJustPedal said:


> How long have you been in this business as your information is so incorrect it makes one wonder.



You just can't help yourself from insulting & talking down to people. Have you noticed you're the only one on the forum doing it? You need to stop.


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## Lnfortun (Feb 18, 2006)

WalkingZombie said:


> I regret not reading this post when it was first posted, but you noted "first hand experience only", so I stayed away LOL.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well said. So true.


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## PedalJustPedal (Nov 26, 2019)

splathead said:


> You just can't help yourself from insulting & talking down to people. Have you noticed you're the only one on the forum doing it? You need to stop.


Simply stated facts and not insulting at all. When you state poly is so much cheaper then cotton shirts because they are made from recycled plastic, etc it simply is not factual. A forum should be for people with experience on the topic to help educate others and themselves. When people post information that is simply not accurate it does nothing but misinform new people. There is so misinformation that is on the dye sub forum now basically due to the majority of truly experienced dye sub'ers leaving.


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## TABOB (Feb 13, 2018)

PedalJustPedal said:


> Simply stated facts


 People want cotton... That's the actual fact!
This is also why cotton tees are cheaper than polyester (economy of scale).


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## PedalJustPedal (Nov 26, 2019)

TABOB said:


> People want cotton... That's the actual fact!
> This is also why cotton tees are cheaper than polyester (economy of scale).


Maybe in your market but we have never been asked for cotton.


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## preachntees (Jun 7, 2008)

WalkingZombie said:


> I regret not reading this post when it was first posted, but you noted "first hand experience only", so I stayed away LOL.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Agree 100% with this! We also use Jet Pro Soft Stretch and have had amazing results with it....INCLUDING on cotton baby onesies! We haven't tried the dyesub to cotton yet, but so far, haven't needed to since our Epson pigment inks and the Jet Pro SS have been working fabulously on light garments. I think if you just stay with that on a cotton onesie you'll be fine. After the first wash, the Jet Pro SS is so soft, it has almost no hand at all.

Hope you sell lots!
AS


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## DrivingZiggy (Apr 24, 2017)

PedalJustPedal said:


> When people post information that is simply not accurate it does nothing but misinform new people.


Define "new people." PedalJustPedal: 55 posts. splathead: 13,715 posts. Is this a coup attempt???


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## PedalJustPedal (Nov 26, 2019)

DrivingZiggy said:


> Define "new people." PedalJustPedal: 55 posts. splathead: 13,715 posts. Is this a coup attempt???


Sorry that posting that a "recycled" poly shirt costing less than a cotton shirt is simply not accurate upsets you. There is no "coup", how silly. If I was the owner of this forum I would be asking why has participation dropped so drastically in the last five years. Second if you equate number of post to experience in dye sub that's your choice.


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## JynxDezyns (Mar 7, 2019)

PedalJustPedal said:


> experience in dye sub


Experience & ability don't necessarily correlate with each other either. 

You can paint every day for your whole life it won't make you the next Rembrandt, and child prodigy's are born with ability not experience.


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## into the T (Aug 22, 2015)

DrivingZiggy said:


> Define "new people." PedalJustPedal: 55 posts. splathead: 13,715 posts. Is this a coup attempt???


i'm pretty sure joe could suck his eye out at 250 yards with a well placed raquetball shot

coup averted (for now...)


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## TABOB (Feb 13, 2018)

DrivingZiggy said:


> Define "new people." PedalJustPedal: 55 posts. splathead: 13,715 posts. Is this a coup attempt???


It's the startling behaviour of people who think they can somehow make alter reality by making things up. 




PedalJustPedal said:


> Maybe in your market but we have never been asked for cotton.


Ha!... Is this why graphic tees from ALL reputable brands are cotton? Only their activewear tees are 100% Polyester.
Are you selling polyester blanks or something?


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## PedalJustPedal (Nov 26, 2019)

TABOB said:


> It's the startling behaviour of people who think they can somehow make alter reality by making things up.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


We are a cut and sew shop in the active sports market and yes, not a single request for a cotton shirt. Sorry it bothers you so that we have no request for cotton shirts. Are you selling cotton blanks?


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## PedalJustPedal (Nov 26, 2019)

into the T said:


> i'm pretty sure joe could suck his eye out at 250 yards with a well placed raquetball shot
> 
> coup averted (for now...)


Probably could but this forum page is about dye sub page and my point stands. The number of posts has zero to do with ones knowledge of dye sublimation.


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## PedalJustPedal (Nov 26, 2019)

JynxDezyns said:


> Experience & ability don't necessarily correlate with each other either.
> 
> You can paint every day for your whole life it won't make you the next Rembrandt, and child prodigy's are born with ability not experience.


I totally agree. People who can do and people who can't teach.


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## TABOB (Feb 13, 2018)

PedalJustPedal said:


> We are a cut and sew shop in the active sports market and yes, not a single request for a cotton shirt.


Of course not... That would be like asking for a beef steak in a vegan restaurant. 
As I said... Most people want cotton, AND Brandonttech specifically mentioned onesies. Nobody wants a cut and sew polyester one.


By the way FOREVER Subli-Light works well when used correctly. It does require some skill.


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## PedalJustPedal (Nov 26, 2019)

TABOB said:


> Of course not... That would be like asking for a beef steak in a vegan restaurant.
> As I said... Most people want cotton, AND Brandonttech specifically mentioned onesies. Nobody wants a cut and sew polyester one.
> 
> 
> By the way FOREVER Subli-Light works well when used correctly. It does require some skill.


Might want to ask yourself why the largest maker of dye sub blank apparel has onsies if nobody wants such? Vapor is not in business to create blanks no one wants. 

Someone who hates poly, to the point they are emotional about it, hanging out in a dye sub forum is like a beef steak in a vegan restaurant, eyes roll. It would be like me hanging in the vinyl forum telling people no one wants vinyl. Makes little sense.


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## TABOB (Feb 13, 2018)

PedalJustPedal said:


> Might want to ask yourself why the largest maker of dye sub blank apparel has onsies if nobody wants such? Vapor is not in business to create blanks no one wants.
> 
> Someone who hates poly, to the point they are emotional about it, hanging out in a dye sub forum is like a beef steak in a vegan restaurant, eyes roll. It would be like me hanging in the vinyl forum telling people no one wants vinyl. Makes little sense.


 You are making things up again.
1. I said "nobody wants a cut and sew polyester one", AND the OP specifically asked for cotton. I forgot to mention that onesies are not exaxty "sportswear". 

2. Dye sub doesn't necessarily imply "polyester fabric". In many cases what is sublimated is a coating... which is the case with the FOREVER Subli-Light paper.


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## davidjhn127 (Oct 15, 2019)

It is good and compatible with different types of sublimation printers.


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## Daninho79 (Feb 3, 2020)

polyester is not cheaper than cotton, you can get a cotton shirt for 1-2 Euros while Polyester shirts are usually more expensive. I however love the tri blends. Cotton alone is not really nice because it soaks itself with sweat and can not dry fast enough. Also it wrinkles after washing. Polyester have also downsides such as the light gloss which man dont like and it feels not soft. Thats why i like the Cotton/Poly/Reyon fabrics. They are more expensive but feels much better, super fast dry times, no wrinkles after washing, no shrinking, very soft because of the reyon. Overall nice to wear in summer time. In winter time cotton has not much benefits at all, its not really keeps you warm but many people buy it because they dont know better. I use blends or even wool stuff in winter which is great against oddor and bacteria, keeps you warm ,breathability etc.. Many people have wrong imaginations about cotton and some even claim only thick cotton fabric is expensive and quality which is another BS argument. THe thickness of the fabric dosnt say its more quality. 



To your Easy subli light question. I dont like it, i currently testing the product and its very hard to get constant results with it, often small parts are not transfered correctly. When its on it feels not bad, more like thick and sticky plastisol. I also tested the powder method which had better results but the print wasnt as nice, if you watch closely you can see thousands of white dots in the print, i guess the powder coat is to thin for an even coating. 



The forever subli light is very bad to work with because you have to hurry up like hell after printing and both methods have the problem that your rollers in your printer will leave smear lines.


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## TABOB (Feb 13, 2018)

Daninho79 said:


> To your Easy subli light question. I dont like it, i currently testing the product and its very hard to get constant results with it, often small parts are not transfered correctly. When its on it feels not bad, more like thick and sticky plastisol.


Maybe you should conclude your testing first...
This paper is definitelly NOT easy to use, but once everything is calibrated it will produce constant results every time. 
It does feel similar to plastisol... nothing wrong with it. 





Daninho79 said:


> The forever subli light is very bad to work with because you have to hurry up like hell after printing and both methods have the problem that your rollers in your printer will leave smear lines.


This is true... a hot low humidity environment will cause the ink to dry too fast

The smear lines are because desktop printers are not designed to handle non absorbent papers. 
It's a fairly easy fix... You basically need to remove or disable the star wheels.


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## Daninho79 (Feb 3, 2020)

Yes i kind of like the feel of it as i mentioned, feels not bad. The problem of the forever paper is that it ofen just dont work properly, like i said the prints are almost good but only to 95%. There is always a part missing here and there. At least from my experience with this paper. The Polyamid powder method works a bit better but its not perfect as well. Same smearing problems of course. The smearing comes from the tiny rolls pushing the paper down when paper leaves the printer, i have no idea how to block or remove them, im not sure i will try it. 



In most tutorials about this forever paper you have to press the shirt within a minute, so there is little time when it comes out the printer. 



I tested it with 170 Celsius, maybe i should try it at 180 Celsius to see if the 5% missing parts gets transfered as well but the paper is still very special because it only accepts full tones, so all in all its a very inconvenient method. The powder method is easier. I will see which method has the better washability.


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## Daninho79 (Feb 3, 2020)

Quick update after the first wash, its a mess! The print totally crapped out at one 30 degree celsius washing cycle, the surface looks awful now and the printed image is totally blurry now. I can not recommend the forever subli light no cut paper at all. The polyamid powder method worked still lookong good and of course the HTV on the same test shirt. Easy subli slightly changed in color slightly but the foil itself is sticking well after first washing cycle, what i expected from such HTV. I will repaet the test every day


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## TABOB (Feb 13, 2018)

Daninho79 said:


> Quick update after the first wash, its a mess! The print totally crapped out at one 30 degree celsius washing cycle, the surface looks awful now and the printed image is totally blurry now.


1. Where did you buy the paper from. Sometimes people list fakes on Amazon.

2. Are you sure you have followed the instructions? I bet you skipped the last step.

3. What type of "image" have you printed? This paper has very specific use. It is NOT not for printing photos or paintings with pastel colors and gradients.


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## Daninho79 (Feb 3, 2020)

TABOB said:


> 1. Where did you buy the paper from. Sometimes people list fakes on Amazon.
> 
> 2. Are you sure you have followed the instructions? I bet you skipped the last step.
> 
> 3. What type of "image" have you printed? This paper has very specific use. It is NOT not for printing photos or paintings with pastel colors and gradients.


Hi, no i followed the Forever PDF 170 C if i remember correctly and a 2nd press to fix the print for a better washability. It did transfered 97% i would say, two or three minor spots not transfered in the end. It looked good, had a sticky touch, like rubber. I bought it at best sublimation Europe, a large online shop. Actually i bought a Teenage mutant hero turtles svg on Etsy because my little nephew loves them. So the main colors are solid green. After the first wash the image was totally blurry and i could peel of large chunks of the print. Used an old cotton shirt for the test. I even had the so called finishing paper. Anoher negative point is that the 2 or 3 minor missing parts of the print were green like the rest of the hero turtles. So 98% of the green color transfered, really strange because it was not a half tone or something like that.

The powder method survived the first wash much better but even there i could see some wear. Only the HTV and siser easy subli survived without any wear. It was a two hour wash with normal color detergent, no bleach and no tumble dryer. On the HTV and polyamid powder shirt i even forgot to turn the shirt inside out, the shirt with forever light no cut was inside out. I will not continue to wash the forever shirt again, its done. The HTV + polyamid powder shirt will be washed again tomorrow


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## TABOB (Feb 13, 2018)

Daninho79 said:


> After the first wash the image was totally blurry and i could peel of large chunks of the print. Used an old cotton shirt for the test. I even had the so called finishing paper.


Interesting... Something went wrong obviously.

My guess is that one of the following is happening:
a) Maybe the old t-shirt had some type of residue on it (detergent, softener, Spray Starch).
b) You just happen to buy a defective batch. Rare but it does happen.

In any case, this is not an easy to use transfer. The "Image Clip laser light (for laser printers) is the best option for weedless transfers in my opinion, and it's a bit easier to apply. You will also know when you mess it up before applying it on a shirt.


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## Ccv171921 (11 mo ago)

I hate to break it to you but that’s false. Cotton is absorb ant, babies have a hard tim regulating body temp when they are little most other fabrics, polyester included are not absorbent so sweet gets trapped there for causing problems. The point of cotton on babies is to pull the sweat away from their body and help them regulate temperature…. Do you have children? also most work out gear is not cotton because of what they can charge for it and that’s all most companies care about. When you are working out do you want your sweat being absorbed and pulled away from the bottom like cotton does, or would you prefer the alternate and have things happen like clogged pores that cause cysts and other issues? 


PedalJustPedal said:


> So you think cotton is more breathable for babies? There is your first mistake.
> Second maybe there is a reason there are not reviews for Forever or any of the other so called solutions to dye sub on cotton. You would be lightyears ahead using Vapors Onesies.


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