# DTG White Ink Concerns



## wraven (Sep 17, 2007)

I talked with a salesman from Brother at the USSC show in Atlantic City and he addressed the white ink issues that plague the other DTG printers. He said the reason Brother doesn't have a white ink option is because the technology just isn't satisfactory. He talked about the white ink chipping. Is he accurate saying the white ink technology is not offering quality or is he just trying to sell what he can offer? I am more confused than ever! Thanks, Wray


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## GRH (Apr 25, 2007)

Your Brother REP is probably more accurate than wrong. I have a white ink capable printer but have decided to not print white ink unless I absolutely have to. I can make a great white ink print that is wash fast but printing with white ink at this time is very problematic. The problem is with the pretreatment, this process is very erratic. The cost of printing white ink is $3.00 to $5.00 per print. There are some new pretreatment machines out there that may make this process practical but the cost is out of reach for small shops.


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## treadhead (Jul 26, 2006)

wraven said:


> I talked with a salesman from Brother at the USSC show in Atlantic City and he addressed the white ink issues that plague the other DTG printers. He said the reason Brother doesn't have a white ink option is because the technology just isn't satisfactory. He talked about the white ink chipping. Is he accurate saying the white ink technology is not offering quality or is he just trying to sell what he can offer? I am more confused than ever! Thanks, Wray


It's fair to say that the white ink technology is still evolving. Chipping is more a result of improper pretreatment (too much usually) than the technology. Now, there are machines out there that are much better at white than others...especially when it comes to doing higher volume jobs.

I own a T Jet 2 and have to keep my jobs to less than 24 shirts when I have to use white ink (unless there is an overriding consideration...such as needing a full color design or time constraints.). The biggest problem (once you get through the learning curve) is how slow the process is. You will be lucky to get 10 to 12 shirts per hours (front & back) using white ink and pretreatment.

I know folks run much larger jobs than that but I strongly believe that using plastisol transfers is a better option for medium to high volume jobs (36 to maybe 500).


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## rndubow (Feb 18, 2007)

We print with white ink all day long with our Kornit and don't have any problems.


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## binki (Jul 16, 2006)

The entire white ink problem has to do with pretreatment and cost. The white ink is expensive and time consuming yes but it is doable. Having an autopretreat takes the skill out of pretreating and if it works it will pay for itself pretty quickly.


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## mk162 (Sep 24, 2007)

I would hope not at nearly $100K. White ink for smaller machines just isn't a viable solution at this time. It's just not production ready. I've heard the Kornit isn't nearly as fast as the specs say on darks.

Personally, I WON'T buy a DTG with white ink until I know it's ready. Take a look at some of the cheaper machines out there...multiple updates, lawsuits, some printers even came out, but never even made it to production(M&R).


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## rndubow (Feb 18, 2007)

When a decision is made on what equipment will fit your business model sometimes the biggest and so called best just won't cut it. Not everyone can justify spending $200,000.00 on a DTG, but some of us either had the business or felt they could build the business to carry the costs and make a profit. 

I have owned a 931 Kornit for about 2 years now. The original ink and software posed many problems but with patience and learning we overcame most of the original issues. Now with the water based ink and new pre-spray we are having great success with minimal challenges. The speed of the 931 definitely isn't as fast as what was first implied when I purchased the machine and the cost of a print isn't as low as I was first told. However, over time I figured out how fast the machine was and what my actual costs were and adjusted my pricing according to my costs rather than to what I was told. 

DTG isn't for everyone and is not a sure thing. I don't care what type of printer someone buys, there is going to be a learning curve and the potential is always there for failure. Determining which if any printer you purchase has to be based on how big of risk you want to take. All machines have their shortcomings and strengths, it is up to the person doing the buying to determine what those are for their business.


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## binki (Jul 16, 2006)

I don't feel that the size of the machine is the problem. It is pretty much the skill of the pre-treater. Our testing worked out pretty well but the cost of the ink plus pre-treatment was a barrier for us. The light colored shirts are more profitable over the long run for us. We can do darks but I quite frankly can do better with plastisol transfers for orders of most sizes but the smallest and in that case we just cannot justify the price we need to charge.

We have shirts that have washed repeated well with the white ink and it looks quite a bit better than screen printing. The DTG is a complicated piece of machinery, much different than screen printing. We like the product and didn't want to fool with screens, emulsion, ink, etc. 

You really have to
a) want to do dtg
b) put forth the effort to make it work

If you don't you will not get good results and might as well have gone just with screen printing.


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## mk162 (Sep 24, 2007)

I still don't get it. There is no effort in making the Brother work. Sure, you need to earn to tweak files so they print well, but that is rarely. Pretty much if you have a great file for screen printing, you'll have an excellent file for digital.

The Brother is about as simple as it gets. It works great, every time I press the button. My spoilage rate is less that screen printing. Anybody that thinks that digital printing has a steep learning curve needs to go demo a Brother. I want white ink that is this simple. That is why I am not messing around with a mickey mouse inkjet printer at this time.


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## JeridHill (Feb 8, 2006)

I wouldn't say these other machines are a mickey mouse inkjet printer simply because they don't build from the ground up like a brother. This is a debate that will continue to go on, but that argument is old and not valid. You can't print the detail on a brother that you can with an Epson head. But I won't get into that here, anyone can do a search on these forums and see the pros and cons of both.

The purpose of my comment is to go back to the original thread about the white ink.

I have always been one to stay away from and encourage others to stay away from white ink. The problem was two-fold for me. Clogs and costs. DuPont came out with their soft settle ink and from the testing and reports so far, this stuff is definitely worth a second look. It is not clogging the heads like the earlier versions were. So now that's being tackled and should only prove to get better. There are other ways to insure no head clogging (or as little as possible) with white ink.

The next issue was cost. This really hasn't changed. It's still expensive to print white ink using anything other than the Kornit. So if your market is one's, two's, three's etc, then this is excellent for you. If your market is 50's, 100's etc., then the white ink costs will be too much for you if you are selling to customers with quantities.

Now if you have your own printed line, then you determine final retail cost and it can work for you.

In the end, a competitive company gave you advice to steer you to their machine. The reality is, white ink printing can be lucrative for you. A "one size fits all" mentality cannot be accepted when printing using DTG. You have to customize it to your needs. I've recommended the Brother machine to people when it fit their needs. I did as well for the TJet, Kornit and the FlexiJet. I've even done it when I was selling direct to garment printers. They took my advice and bought machines that were "competition" to me. I'd rather have someone who was happy with their purchase because it fit their needs, then a customer who bought a machine I was selling and they feel like I talked them into something that didn't fit their needs. It's a reflection on me.


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## PinkFreud (Mar 8, 2007)

I want to take issue with the comment "Mickey Mouse machine" Mickey was a popular well respected mouse with a good work ethic and a cute girlfiend (I was always attracted to Minnie, but thats another story)...so I resent your slanderous and unauthorized use of the name "Mickey Mouse" ...MK...you will be hearing from the Disney lawyers in the morning!

Look folks we can argue from one Christmas to the next....Is the white ink ready?....does it work?....does it cost too much?...is it too hard to do?....does it hold up in the wash?..etc....This argument has gone on for 2 years now....In the meantime all I can do is smile when I think of the 1000's of dark shirts I have sold and how many I am selling right now....most at retail and many to repeat customers....This is a tough economy and I am afraid its going to get worse...In a way I have to thank all you people who sit on the sidelines ignoring 50% of the market because the white is too complicated, slow or whatever...I thank you all and wish you a happy holiday season. Thanks for the extra business...my advise to all you Tom,Dick & Harrys out there.....keep waiting!!

ps....incidently...the secret to successfully printing with white ink is to use the white ink all the time...no clogs


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## binki (Jul 16, 2006)

waytogo pink!


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## mk162 (Sep 24, 2007)

And there is the problem...use it all the time.

For people that struggle with the learning curve, using it frequently is a huge problem. I am glad Pink is making money with his. It seems though that he is making more money on his lawsuits though.  Although I think that for every Pink out there, there are probably 10 people that have failed at white ink printing.


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## sunnydayz (Jun 22, 2007)

It is amazing to me that there are so many people who dont print with white ink that talk bad about it. With my HM1 I print white ink everyday and I have yet to have a clogged print head, I once had to change a damper that had slowed a little but that was months ago before the new white ink. My white ink prints great consistantly and does not chip or fade, in fact my shirts look great for many many washes. It does take learning because you have more things involved including pretreatment, but once you get the right formula of pretreating and curing you get beautiful prints. It really depends on whether you are satisfied with just printing on light garments or you want to have more to offer your customers. 
I was one of the more adventurous types that did not want to have limits on what I was able to do. I think all of the machines have advantages and disadvantages. By no way is my machine a Mickey Mouse Machine, it prints great with no problems.


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## treadhead (Jul 26, 2006)

mk162 said:


> I still don't get it. There is no effort in making the Brother work. Sure, you need to earn to tweak files so they print well, but that is rarely. Pretty much if you have a great file for screen printing, you'll have an excellent file for digital.
> 
> The Brother is about as simple as it gets. It works great, every time I press the button. My spoilage rate is less that screen printing. Anybody that thinks that digital printing has a steep learning curve needs to go demo a Brother. I want white ink that is this simple. That is why I am not messing around with a mickey mouse inkjet printer at this time.


Hey Brad....

I think it's fair to say that most of the learning curve and issues are with the white ink & pretreatment system. I have very little if any issues when I am just running light shirts on my T Jet II. I've considered the possibility of converting to a 7 color CMYK system and removing the white ink.....if I can figure out a good way to do the small volume full color designs that we do. Opaque transfers and printable vinyl just ain't close enough yet.


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## Gunslinger (Aug 3, 2007)

I just completed a 288 shirt run for a local radio station, using the latest white ink from Dupont (Bright White for T-Jetters). The white ink is ready


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## binki (Jul 16, 2006)

the only time we had a head clog was when we went away for 10 days and the black line clogged. I cleaned it out and it works fine. 

the white ink problems we have had were inproper pre-treatment (skill) and some fuzzy shirts.


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## JeridHill (Feb 8, 2006)

Gunslinger said:


> I just completed a 288 shirt run for a local radio station, using the latest white ink from Dupont (Bright White for T-Jetters). The white ink is ready


Wow, how much did the ink cost on a 288 run? Obviously, the image isn't as filled, but I'd be interested to see how much you used overall.


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## JeridHill (Feb 8, 2006)

binki said:


> the only time we had a head clog was when we went away for 10 days and the black line clogged. I cleaned it out and it works fine.
> 
> the white ink problems we have had were inproper pre-treatment (skill) and some fuzzy shirts.


I assume that was with the soft settle?


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## binki (Jul 16, 2006)

nope, the old stuff.


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## Gunslinger (Aug 3, 2007)

JeridHill said:


> Wow, how much did the ink cost on a 288 run? Obviously, the image isn't as filled, but I'd be interested to see how much you used overall.


Hard to say with any accuracy, since I was balancing several jobs and the retail end of things, I would say that it ranged from 32 ounces to 48 ounces. The white never gave me a problem, unlike the cyan and magenta driving me insane ... and averaging 6 shirts an hour is annoying ... I definately need a Blazer, at this point. 

Just got a proof approved for a contract with a new country station ... thankfully, white shirts!


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## JeridHill (Feb 8, 2006)

Gunslinger said:


> Hard to say with any accuracy, since I was balancing several jobs and the retail end of things, I would say that it ranged from 32 ounces to 48 ounces. The white never gave me a problem, unlike the cyan and magenta driving me insane ... and averaging 6 shirts an hour is annoying ... I definately need a Blazer, at this point.
> 
> Just got a proof approved for a contract with a new country station ... thankfully, white shirts!


That's my one biggest complaint with the white ink. $300 - $400 in white ink alone for this job. That's why I think this lends itself really well to smaller runs. I imagine the pricing on the ink eventually has to come down in order to compete with printers like the Kornit.


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## wraven (Sep 17, 2007)

Thats funny Pink. I like the humor. What printer do you use? I have a sign shop and I do not anticipate continuously using the printer. What does "use the white ink all the time" mean? What do white clogs cause in $ and repair time? As an artist, I hate limitations and do not want to design only for light colored garments.


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## sunnydayz (Jun 22, 2007)

I myself have only had one clogged damper in the time I have had my machine, never any clogs in the printhead and about 5 minutes of maintenance per day with more detailed cleanings weekly and a thurough cleaning once a month fo my dampers and printhead. The one clogged damper I had was before the new white ink was available. I think as long as you know what your getting into and know how to maintain your machine you should be ok. That is the mistake alot of people make is that they dont research enough before purchase and then are suprised to find there is alot more involved with keeping the machine running well. These machines like to print consistantly. If you let it sit for days at a time you are more likely to have problems than someone who prints daily with it.


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## treadhead (Jul 26, 2006)

Gunslinger said:


> I just completed a 288 shirt run for a local radio station, using the latest white ink from Dupont (Bright White for T-Jetters). The white ink is ready


Hey Michael...

Those prints look great! The white print on the black shirt almost looks like vinyl...nice coverage!!

Wow...288 shirts!! I hear ya on the 6 shirts per hour thing! I just completed 72 shirts with a full back and front pocket and averaged 4 shirts per hour at best (all needing white ink and pretreatment) which is why I normally limit the use of the DTG to smaller quantities...especially with white ink and pretreatment.

These were part of a 263 shirt job that I ordered plastisol transfers for but needed to get these 72 done so the kids could have them today for a field trip. The rest of the order will be with the plastisol transfers. Otherwise, I just couldn't justify all that time and effort on the DTG.

I tip my hat to you........


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## Gunslinger (Aug 3, 2007)

treadhead said:


> Hey Michael...
> 
> Those prints look great! The white print on the black shirt almost looks like vinyl...nice coverage!!
> 
> ...


Thanks John 

The tests I did for the Team Kimbo, side-by-side and by feel ... 2 + 1 passes at 1440x720 and the one I went with - 1 pass at 1440, another at 720 ... both looked identical, but up close there was some edging I didn't like for straight white letting with my preferred mode at 1440x720. But the result is the closest I have seen to vinyl or plastisol (with the exception to the new Kornit ink, that was talked about in an earlier thread). We bought a vinyl cutter, in case the new ink wouldn't fly ... lol ... now, I need to figure out what to do with the cutter. 

But, I do understand trying to justify all factors for doing a rather large run like that, time particularly, but the smaller gigs balance it out. But, if I continue to attract large orders, I can bang em out with a couple of Blazers, and not feel like I'm working for minimum wage! 

My wife will be attending the show in San Diego ... the last one, she brought home transfer samples that quite simply sucked.

What plastisol transfers are you using, John? And for say, simple lettering ... which do you prefer - vinyl or transfers??


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## treadhead (Jul 26, 2006)

Gunslinger said:


> What plastisol transfers are you using, John? And for say, simple lettering ... which do you prefer - vinyl or transfers??


I've started using Ace Transfers and am very happy with them so far.

Usually, for simple lettering in smaller quantities (say less than 24) I would go with vinyl (ThermoFlex) but switch over to plastisol beyond that since both the cost of plastisols becomes cheaper and you don't have to do any weeding.


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## fdsales (Jul 1, 2007)

As a screen-printer for 21 years I simply don't understand why anyone would spend hours upon hours using a DTG printer on a large order like 288 pcs. It would appear that the job Gunsliger ran had to cost w/ ink & LABOR $4-5 per shirt to print & take several days, whereas a screen-printer w/ an auto press could do this job for $2.00 per shirt, in 1 day. I understand the concept of being able to maintain print qualtity by doing it yourself, but simply stated, if you have a good contract screen-printer that pays attention to details, then the time spent running this multi-day 576 print order (fronts & backs) could be spent calling running more profitable orders, getting caught up on other projects, etc. The one expense that you can never really estimate is the wear & tear on the DTG printer, it's got to take it's toll eventually. I think the real success w/ DTG printers will be for DTG owners to have a contract screen-printer for the larger runs, and knowing when to hold the job, or sub it out. That way, you can truly tell your customers that we print 1-1000 pieces. Just an old screen-printer's 2 pennies worth on the topic.


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## SICK (Nov 16, 2006)

Gunslinger said:


> Thanks John
> 
> The tests I did for the Team Kimbo, side-by-side and by feel ... 2 + 1 passes at 1440x720 and the one I went with - 1 pass at 1440, another at 720 ... both looked identical, but up close there was some edging I didn't like for straight white letting with my preferred mode at 1440x720.


What printer was this done on and how did you pretreat? Looks great!


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## Gunslinger (Aug 3, 2007)

fdsales said:


> As a screen-printer for 21 years I simply don't understand why anyone would spend hours upon hours using a DTG printer on a large order like 288 pcs. It would appear that the job Gunsliger ran had to cost w/ ink & LABOR $4-5 per shirt to print & take several days, whereas a screen-printer w/ an auto press could do this job for $2.00 per shirt, in 1 day. I understand the concept of being able to maintain print qualtity by doing it yourself, but simply stated, if you have a good contract screen-printer that pays attention to details, then the time spent running this multi-day 576 print order (fronts & backs) could be spent calling running more profitable orders, getting caught up on other projects, etc. The one expense that you can never really estimate is the wear & tear on the DTG printer, it's got to take it's toll eventually. I think the real success w/ DTG printers will be for DTG owners to have a contract screen-printer for the larger runs, and knowing when to hold the job, or sub it out. That way, you can truly tell your customers that we print 1-1000 pieces. Just an old screen-printer's 2 pennies worth on the topic.


My wife and I were discussing that very issue, Brian. And I agree 100%.

Unfortunately (but also a blessing), there aren't any local screen printers here, anymore. My wife did get a nice referral from Mike Frazier at Digital Solutions for a solid screen printer out of Texas. Beyond that, it's a question of which will be better for us, in the long term. Do we put up an automated screen printer shop, string a bunch a blazers up (as some large companies have done with the Kornits), or simply outsource? It is something we will be weighing out, as we grow ... and who knows how the industry will develop over time, so whatever decision we make may be obsolete, regardless.


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## Gunslinger (Aug 3, 2007)

SICK said:


> What printer was this done on and how did you pretreat? Looks great!


Sick, we did this with a T-Jet 3 (but I would strongly recommend a Blazer, instead). And the pre-treatment method is as follows:

Press the shirt at 330-335 for 5-15 seconds, depending on the wrinkles.
Spray a one to two second pass (depends on how dark the shirt is) with water (preferrably, distilled, depending on the quality of your water).
Spray a two to three second pass of pre-treatment (again, depends on how dark the shirt is).
Then, use a firm sponge roller (I am hearing that folks prefer a rubber roller called a brayer) over the shirt, to get the pre-treament into the shirt fibers.
Let the shirt rest for about 45 seconds or more (I found out by accident, that if you let the shirt completely air dry you will completely eliminate any pre-treatment "box" typical of pre-treaments).
Then, spray a quick pass of water, and press with pre-treatment paper for 10-15 seconds, press again for 10-15 seconds without paper (to save build up on your platen, you can press it all with paper, instead) ... press again at 1-3 second intervals (tapping) to get any remaining moisture (if you still are getting little streams of steam rising from the shirt.

Then, print away!


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## fdsales (Jul 1, 2007)

We used to everything in house w/ a 12 color auto press, 2 manual presses, a 6 head, 18 head, & single head embroidery machine. I always felt like we we were working for our employees, as if they did not show up for work, then I was the one that had go out into the 95 degree wharehouse & run the auto press, or hop on one of the embroidery machines....Then Hurricane Katrina came in & took all our equipmemt away, but also changed how we do business. Now, we do some in house, and outsource some. Through the years, I made a contact w/ am embroidery company in Mississippi, and found a great contract screen-printed in Texas when we were hold up there after the storm. I'll never do it all in house again; I do the more profitable smaller jobs in house, and sub out the larger jobs, which granted I'm giving some of my profit away, I don't have all the overhead either.


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## SICK (Nov 16, 2006)

Thanx Gunslinger, that's a lot of work to pretreat. I got a used Tjet 2 a month ago.


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## Gunslinger (Aug 3, 2007)

fdsales said:


> We used to everything in house w/ a 12 color auto press, 2 manual presses, a 6 head, 18 head, & single head embroidery machine. I always felt like we we were working for our employees, as if they did not show up for work, then I was the one that had go out into the 95 degree wharehouse & run the auto press, or hop on one of the embroidery machines....Then Hurricane Katrina came in & took all our equipmemt away, but also changed how we do business. Now, we do some in house, and outsource some. Through the years, I made a contact w/ am embroidery company in Mississippi, and found a great contract screen-printed in Texas when we were hold up there after the storm. I'll never do it all in house again; I do the more profitable smaller jobs in house, and sub out the larger jobs, which granted I'm giving some of my profit away, I don't have all the overhead either.


Brian,

I can't imagine trying to pick up the pieces, after Katrina ... much respect.

We have been in business for 15 years, now (though, I really tried to retire a for couple), and I think the hardest thing for my wife and I is learning to delegate. For the last couple of years, my wife has been running the day-to-day operations of our resteraunt. It's the first time we have had employees, and like you, she has had to fill whatever employee voids that always, always pop up. For our previous projects, we have always done everything ourselves, so it's hard to get out of that mindset. Particularly, for myself, as I find myself behind web and design and marketing work that I should be doing, instead of print jobs I should be off-loading to someone else. While it was important to learn this from this new venture from the ground up ... at some point, I gotta step back and learn how to be a boss!


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## Gunslinger (Aug 3, 2007)

SICK said:


> Thanx Gunslinger, that's a lot of work to pretreat. I got a used Tjet 2 a month ago.


Yeah, it is, Sick ... and it may be overkill with the new white ink. I haven't tested it using the old pre-treatment method, or talked to anyone using the auto pretreat machines. I have learned to take what manufacturer's and dealer's say with more than a few grains of salt. Hopefully, my wife will grab a freshly pressed, auto-treated and printed sample at the upcoming show in January, to take home to me for me to wash test. Beyond washfastness, it's all a question of getting rid of the pre-treatment "box."


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## zionere (Dec 22, 2013)

PinkFreud said:


> I want to take issue with the comment "Mickey Mouse machine" Mickey was a popular well respected mouse with a good work ethic and a cute girlfiend (I was always attracted to Minnie, but thats another story)...so I resent your slanderous and unauthorized use of the name "Mickey Mouse" ...MK...you will be hearing from the Disney lawyers in the morning!
> 
> Look folks we can argue from one Christmas to the next....Is the white ink ready?....does it work?....does it cost too much?...is it too hard to do?....does it hold up in the wash?..etc....This argument has gone on for 2 years now....In the meantime all I can do is smile when I think of the 1000's of dark shirts I have sold and how many I am selling right now....most at retail and many to repeat customers....This is a tough economy and I am afraid its going to get worse...In a way I have to thank all you people who sit on the sidelines ignoring 50% of the market because the white is too complicated, slow or whatever...I thank you all and wish you a happy holiday season. Thanks for the extra business...my advise to all you Tom,**** & Harrys out there.....keep waiting!!
> 
> ps....incidently...the secret to successfully printing with white ink is to use the white ink all the time...no clogs


Haha! Great reply!
I myself do not want to sit on the sidelines waiting. What's your setup for printing (equipment, software)? What did you start with?


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## EricDeem (May 7, 2011)

Do you realize this topic is 6 years old?


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## zionere (Dec 22, 2013)

Dekay317 said:


> Do you realize this topic is 6 years old?


History always tends to repeat itself. So i guess DTG has come a long way since then. Do you have experience with DTG?


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