# the wwjd logo( aquestion on a variation)



## beachin (Jan 6, 2010)

I am sure that wwjd (what would Jesus do) is copyrighted though i'm not sure and it seems to have faded out how do I check to see the statute of limitations on a copyright ? And even if it is I have an idea for an awesome graphic that would include that saying but something else as well that would be on the back of the T shirt. Is the variation a copy right infringement if it includes the wwjd logo? I think this shirt would do very well in Christian venues. Thanks


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## Girlzndollz (Oct 3, 2007)

beachin said:


> I am sure that wwjd (what would Jesus do) is copyrighted


You can be sure if you did not create it, someone Else holds the copyright. 

All works are automatically copyrighted once it is a finished work, whether or not the creator officially files for the copyright. Period.  



> though i'm not sure and it seems to have faded out


That won't matter. 



> how do I check to see the statute of limitations on a copyright ?


Go to U.S. Copyright Office. You can verify what the copyright is. I think it's something ridiculously too long for you to wait on tho.  Like 70 yrs beyond the creators death, and that's if the heirs don't pick it up. 





> And even if it is I have an idea for an awesome graphic that would include that saying but something else as well that would be on the back of the T shirt.


Infringement, if you were wondering.



> Is the variation a copy right infringement if it includes the wwjd logo?


If it is at all recognizable as the original logo, then you are in danger of being sued by the copyright holders. Then you get a lawyer, then you go to court, then they argue, then a judge decides, if you run out of money, you lose. If judge rules in their favor, you lose. Penalties, lawyers fees, fines... it sounds like alot of fun when I read about it.




> I think this shirt would do very well in Christian venues. Thanks


Um, if you think it will based on the WWJD success, and you think your product is just like it because you are using the logo, sort of, kind of, but it's a bit different...

You ARE the exact kind of person copyright laws are written to stop, and protect copyright holders from.

Create your own art, from scratch, or hire someone to create it for you, become the guy everyone else wants to "copy". You'll be much safer.  (legally!) 

No kidding tho, if you go there, and they want to, they can send a cease and desist letter or skip that and just take you to court. Of course, it's a gamble, as they need to find you to take you to court....

But - you are looking at the ethical side as well. Many consider it stealing when you borrow off the idea of a successful logo, even if you change it. How will that go over in a "Christian" niche! Think about it! lol.


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## beachin (Jan 6, 2010)

well'ive got nothin but time on my hands and i guess I'll search to see the statute. if there is one theres nothing thats stopping me from saying something like, what would the son of God do? I'll get around it. Legally of course. thats what my cousins for hes an atty. sure dont want to step on any right wing Christian toes. Thanks for your input. A friend of mine in NC had a list of songs that he copyrighted and he had to renew after 7 years. If you don;t its free game. Thats in NC though FYI


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## charles95405 (Feb 1, 2007)

while you are 'getting around it' be sure to put some $$ in reserve because like Kelly said....if you don't create it from scratch you don't own it. I have been in this biz over 8 years and have yet to use a copyright or trademark image...or even try to 'get around' an issue...to me that is plain and simple cheating


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## beachin (Jan 6, 2010)

I guess youve talked me out of it . Thanks for keeping me straight on things cause I just dont know enough yet. But with your help I'm learning


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## wormil (Jan 7, 2008)

You cannot copyright short phrases, "What would Jesus do?" is not copyrightable. WWJD was trademarkable.

COPYRIGHT CRUSADERS - May 16, 2005



> Likewise, the ubiquitous WWJD slogan ("What would Jesus do?") never brought any fortune to its author, Charles M. Sheldon, a minister who coined the phrase in an 1896 book, In His Steps, in which a fictional pastor uses the phrase to challenge complacent Christians. Sheldon couldn't find a publisher for the book, so he had it serialized in a local newspaper, and it fell into the public domain.
> 
> A century later when Janie Tinklenberg, a youth pastor in Michigan, rediscovered Sheldon's book, she hit upon the idea of making WWJD wristbands for the teens in her charge. The idea swept the nation, but like her predecessor, Tinklenberg did not think about merchandising first, and so she watched while retailers raked in millions on WWJD kitsch. Tinklenberg won a victory of sorts in 2000 when the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office awarded her the trademark for "WWJD." But she decided not to invest a small fortune trying to enforce her claim or to set up a manufacturing business because the phrase is already so popular in the marketplace.


But there is a difference between owning a trademark and protecting it. Tinkleberg waited far too long and the WWJD became part of pop culture diluting her ability to enforce any trademark.

I wonder if Jesus would have concerned himself with trademarks?


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## Girlzndollz (Oct 3, 2007)

There is an exception to the "no copyright for slogans, short phases, etc" but it has to be shown to be unique in thought, blahblah... been a while, but I believe this reference, the "contains sufficient authorship" sentence, in this blurb from the copyright.gov site under phrases in the FAQ, may be referring to it. I will say, the verbiage on the site itself has changed over time. 

While Rick is absolutely right, there is that little loophole the size of a needle hole. There are other sites that expand on it further and it's been a long time since I sat and poured over the pages of these sites but I remember reading such things as it has to show/prove originality in thought by the author. 

You may research more if you like, following up on that, but in this case, not really worth it.



copyright . gov said:


> How do I copyright a name, title, slogan or logo?
> Copyright does not protect names, titles, slogans, or short phrases. In some cases, these things may be protected as trademarks. Contact the U.S. Patent & Trademark Office, 800-786-9199, for further information. However, copyright protection may be available for logo artwork that contains sufficient authorship. In some circumstances, an artistic logo may also be protected as a trademark.


PS: Rick, I am almost reading that due to the particular situation with this trademark, it may be a free for all situation of sorts? Sounds odd. I would think that someone would like to try to reserve the rights to line their own pockets with the popular phrase. ?


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## wormil (Jan 7, 2008)

Well, there was an article in Salon about this case and Salon made it sound like the trademark was unenforceable because it was already in the public domain but I am unable to verify that. The danger here to Tinkleberg is that if she doesn't protect it then it will pass into the public domain and if she does try to protect it and fails, it will still become part of the public domain. She has stated that she doesn't have the money or will to protect the trademark and there are other companies selling products with WWJD on them right now. There are also graphic trademarks that include WWJD. So really the whole thing is a giant mess. IMHO, it should have been ruled to be in the public domain and been done with it.


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## beachin (Jan 6, 2010)

I read a plethora of info on copyright law and it seems to me (as posted by some of you) that the copyright must be enforced by the owner. Do you think its possible for me to contact Dr. Sheldon personally and ask his permission or get an online waiver signed? I am willing to take any legal steps necessary to put out this shirt. Perhaps Dr. Sheldon might be interested in taking a small % of proceeds to furthur his ministry. Just a question for those out there with real knowledge on the subject... Not just edumacated opinions.


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## beachin (Jan 6, 2010)

I did read, however that a copyright, once filed,,lasts for about 70 years. And then heirs or partners heirs can re submit for another 70 yrs. I think perhaps I may be out of luck because I don't think I'll make it till 2047
.  But thanks for all and anymore help you fine people can provide me with.


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## kimura-mma (Jul 26, 2008)

beachin said:


> I read a plethora of info on copyright law and it seems to me (as posted by some of you) that the copyright must be enforced by the owner.


Yes, copyrights and trademarks need to be enforced to be fully protected. But in this case, there are several companies using the mark, and there has been difficulty with the owner being able to protect it. That causes a lot of gray area. Perhaps there is another company out there trying to acquire the mark with the intention of better protecting it. Just a thought...



beachin said:


> Do you think its possible for me to contact Dr. Sheldon personally and ask his permission or get an online waiver signed?


Sure, it doesn't hurt to call or e-mail and see what happens. If you do get permission and have something signed, I would have an IP attorney draw up the papers to make sure you have everything covered.



beachin said:


> I am willing to take any legal steps necessary to put out this shirt.


Then you really should contact an IP attorney.



beachin said:


> Perhaps Dr. Sheldon might be interested in taking a small % of proceeds to furthur his ministry.


Yep, money talks...



beachin said:


> Just a question for those out there with real knowledge on the subject... Not just edumacated opinions.


Then you should definitely contact an IP attorney. While there are many well-informed people on this site, and many of them mean well, this is a t-shirt forum and not a law forum. There is no substitute for proper legal advice from a trained attorney. And now that you have determined that you want real knowledge and not just educated opinions, you really need to consult an IP attorney.


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## ggraphics (Nov 20, 2008)

beachin said:


> Perhaps Dr. Sheldon might be interested in taking a small % of proceeds to furthur his ministry.


I doubt you'd be able to ask him. He wrote/published the book in 1896.



> Just a question for those out there with real knowledge on the subject... Not just edumacated opinions.


Then maybe you should check with an IP attorney, not a t-shirt forum.


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## Girlzndollz (Oct 3, 2007)

Agreed, if you are looking to move "past" edumacated opinions, you are in need of a trained professional. You should always seek the advice of a trained professional when it comes to your biz. Mistakes can be costly. You got some basic direction here, but it's worth what you paid for it. 

Gem, thanks for the laugh, it really was out loud.


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## Girlzndollz (Oct 3, 2007)

It almost sounds to me like this is such a big, big mess, that if a powerful, prominent, rich company wanted to, and had the right lawyers, they could "try" to stop others, maybe the smaller biz's who cannot defend themselves ($$) from also cashing in.

It would seem risky despite the apparent loophole on this one, as anyone can sue anyone for anything anytime, really.... and if one of the bigger companies, despite "real" ownership, decides to wipe out the little guys, they could try if they wanted to. 

Win or lose, it will cost the little guys dough to defend themselves, which might be enough to break the business.

Create from scratch. It's still the best way. Unless, of course, you can get permission from that woman I suppose. Seems like she might actually be the one you need to contact. I bet you won't have been her first call for this.


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## tcrowder (Apr 27, 2006)

beachin said:


> thats what my cousins for hes an atty.



I'm at a loss as to why you would ask a legal question of a bunch of people on a T-shirt forum when you have legal advice at your fingertips?


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## wormil (Jan 7, 2008)

beachin said:


> I did read, however that a copyright, once filed,,lasts for about 70 years. And then heirs or partners heirs can re submit for another 70 yrs. I think perhaps I may be out of luck because I don't think I'll make it till 2047


I get the feeling you didn't read my replies. 



beachin said:


> I read a plethora of info on copyright law...


You are confusing copyright and trademark, they are different things. The phrase, "What would Jesus do?" cannot be copyrighted. The article that was originally published with this phrase was not copyrighted (laws were different then).

WWJD is trademarked, but I've already covered that.




beachin said:


> Do you think its possible for me to contact Dr. Sheldon personally...?


No, because he died in 1946. The person you want, as stated previously, is Tinkleberg. And yes, I think she will gladly accept your money.



beachin said:


> Just a question for those out there with real knowledge on the subject... Not just edumacated opinions.


Real knowledge doesn't come from education?


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## beachin (Jan 6, 2010)

Well, Terry,, even though hes my cousin ... he has always charged me for advice on legal matters. Albeit it is a lesser fee than most clients,,to him money is thicker than blood. Plus I knew that there are enough people on this forum that may have run into the same situation and could lead me in the right direction to pursue this legally. And you have. I thank you all. If it's too much of a headache to do this then I'll scratch the thing and go with graphics and slogans of my own design which was my original plan. This idea just came to me and I thought I'd get a little advice. Thats all. I sincerely appreciate everyones input because I'm new but learning quickly .


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