# What is best water based ink? And what is best way to heat set??



## nfractal77 (Mar 21, 2007)

I was hoping on getting some advice on the best water based inks out there and the best ways to heat set water based inks. I have issues of ink flaking off even after I heat set the shirts in a hot dryer at a laundromat for 45 minutes. I was wanting to get a flash dryer in hopes that this might clear this issue...Any ideas??


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## seibei (Mar 17, 2006)

you might want to look into Aerotex by Union Ink; it's a water-based ink that requires and activating catalyst, if memory serves. It air dries and cures within 24 hours (I think no heat-setting is required), and has a higher opacity than regular water-based inks. 

I have never seen it in person, but I have seen pictures of shirts done with it that look really good. 

unfortunately, I don't know where to tell you to get it. I'm sure you can order it from somewhere.

also, there are probably other brands of water-based ink that require a catalyst, and don't use heat-setting.


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## nfractal77 (Mar 21, 2007)

Thanks for the info I'm kind of desperate and really would be so happy to find an ink that works...I know that dickblick sells it...I just wonder if it's opaque enough so that I can print on black shirts....Cheers,
nat


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## seibei (Mar 17, 2006)

I have seen photos of it in action on black shirts, and it looks like pretty good coverage.


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## nfractal77 (Mar 21, 2007)

thanks! I just bought some and hope it works
nat


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## seibei (Mar 17, 2006)

yeah, let us know! so far I've only heard good things.


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## Solmu (Aug 15, 2005)

nfractal77 said:


> I have issues of ink flaking off even after I heat set the shirts in a hot dryer at a laundromat for 45 minutes.


As you've experienced, a hot dryer is not that hot. A dryer is about 80°c. To cure the ink you want more like 120-180°c.


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## seibei (Mar 17, 2006)

ohhhh yeah! I hadn't even thought about that. yeah, a piece of paper and a hot iron is the way to go on heat curing, in my experience.


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## nfractal77 (Mar 21, 2007)

So do you guys recommend that I buy a flash dryer?? Do they work with water based ink as well as plastisol?? I would assume so. Do you guys recommend any particular brand of flash dryer?
Thanks again for all your help this forum is great
nathalie


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## Greg Hamrick (Jan 25, 2007)

Get a flash dryer. Ironing will not cure the ink. A flash dryer is not the best to use either, but it will work. Just be sure to "time" each cure to get an accurate run. One way to tell if you have a good cure is to rub a piece of cloth on the ink after it has come out from under the flash. If you don't see ink on the cloth, it is cured.
Be careful not to over cure it. Start with a time, test it, then increase the time until the ink won't rub off. Over doing it will cause problems too.

.


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## Solmu (Aug 15, 2005)

Greg Hamrick said:


> One way to tell if you have a good cure is to rub a piece of cloth on the ink after it has come out from under the flash. If you don't see ink on the cloth, it is cured.


Waterbased ink won't rub off once it's dry - that doesn't mean it's necessarily washfast.


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## nfractal77 (Mar 21, 2007)

well the non-opaque inks that I use don't rub off but all the opaque water based inks I have found are only surface level and all seem to rub off...do you know of any other opaque water based inks that actually soak into the shirt? Thanks again everybody...right now my only solution is to use non-dark shirts(which sucks because I love using dark shirts) and using non-opaque water based ink which I know don't flake off...just fade a bit...
nathalie


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## dfalk (Apr 11, 2007)

I just started printing with Versatex water based inks and when mixed with the Opaque white you will get great coverage for darker shirts. You can also mix the ink with a fixer that will air dry without heat setting.


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## neato (Mar 21, 2006)

Here's the big question...

Does the white crack when stretched?


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## dfalk (Apr 11, 2007)

No the white does not crack if you use just the Opaque White but I have heard that you may have some cracking if you use the Super Opaque White.


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## nfractal77 (Mar 21, 2007)

I finally bought my flash dryer(it's still in the box) but I'm wondering what is the average time I should flash my water based shirts with it? I know your supposed to do tests but could you estimate long is the average time? Thanks for your help
Nathalie


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## lowStress (Jan 2, 2007)

nfractal77 said:


> I finally bought my flash dryer(it's still in the box) but I'm wondering what is the average time I should flash my water based shirts with it? I know your supposed to do tests but could you estimate long is the average time? Thanks for your help
> Nathalie



Wish I would have seen this forum earlier. You should have bought a heat-press. It works like an iron but it reaches temperatures high enough to set water based inks so that they are wash fast. If it's not to late you might want to send the flash unit back. 

A flash drier will evaporate the top coat of ink from fabric, but it won't sufficiently remove all the water. This is usually done with a heat circulating gas dry oven.


But now that you have it,maybe you should switch to plastisol!


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## sg613 (Jul 19, 2007)

Can you let us know what ink you are using. Also how long, what temp, and what pressure you use to cure you WB ink with a heat press. Thanks. Please let us know if you are using some sort of fixer mixed with the ink.


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## lowStress (Jan 2, 2007)

Hello,

I am using this ink I get from a place called Standard Ink.
Standard Screen Supply Corp. | Manufacturer of Holden's Screen Printing Supplies

I also add a catalyst and a little bonder -- then I just print like crazy.
When the print is finished i simply stack the shirts lightly.
Depending on how heavy the ink is I heat press at 350 for 30-90 seconds. 

This seems to work pretty good. I get a little bit of fading after the first wash -- but this is fiberlation(sp!) I beleive.


A


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## nfractal77 (Mar 21, 2007)

The heat press sounds cool but what happens when you have an order of say 100 shirts that's alot of time spent pressing the shirts. I was thinking of eventually buying a Black Body little buddy dryer so all I have to do is place the shirts and stand back while they dry. The Flash dryer I got is definitely better than what I was using but this still takes forever.... The reason I don't use plastisol is because I make art shirts and don't print in the traditional way and also all the fumes... but that ink you recommended looks great. Dose it air dry? and you just heat press it for extra hold?
Thanks,
Nathalie


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## Solmu (Aug 15, 2005)

nfractal77 said:


> The heat press sounds cool but what happens when you have an order of say 100 shirts that's alot of time spent pressing the shirts.


Nothing beats a tunnel dryer, especially on large orders. A heat press is just a better alternative for those using irons, heat guns, etc. - not suitable in an actual production environment.


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## lowStress (Jan 2, 2007)

Solmu said:


> Nothing beats a tunnel dryer, especially on large orders. A heat press is just a better alternative for those using irons, heat guns, etc. - not suitable in an actual production environment.


Tunnel dryer or Flash Dryer or Gas Chamber. At this point I am getting a little confused. 

*1)*I have a flash dryer which cures plastisol fine. Am I correct in thinking that this flash dryer could also cure water based inks if the heating unit was far enough away from the shirt for a long enough time to evaporate the water without toasting the shirt?

If this is correct.
* How long would I need to 'cure?'*
and 
*At what temperature would i need to maintain for water based prints to cure via IR flash heater? *

This concept seems very possible. When I use my spot remover gun it really wets the shirt and the flash dryer evaporates the fluid in a fairly short time. This fluid might evaporate quickly, but this principle should work on WB inks.

*2)*is their an FAQ (or wikipedia article) for water based paints.. if not there should be. I see lots of similar questions all over the forum and web but not a solid resource for DIY printers.

With a heat press I usually press WB inks for about 3 minutes at 350 degrees. This gives excellent results for making samples BUT is no good for productions runs at 3 min/shirt. 

Just a note, my samples have better washability than prints I have had contracted by a major print house in LA! So the heat press is nothing to laugh at! 

*3)* I have a small design studio and am thinking about investing in a belt drying system so I can do some production in house. Does anyone have any comments on the the Little Buddy Black Body dryer or a similar dryer that can run on 120V AC current. 
*
4)* Could a little dryer cure water based inks if the belt is moving slow enough? What about discharge?

Thank you in advance for any responses.

A


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## Solmu (Aug 15, 2005)

lowStress said:


> Tunnel dryer or Flash Dryer or Gas Chamber.


Flash dryers are designed for drying between colours, gas chambers are execution devices (not really useful to printers, unless you have a particularly tardy client I suppose): tunnel dryers are what you want.



lowStress said:


> Am I correct in thinking that this flash dryer could also cure water based inks


Yes, at least one member here does (or did) that.



lowStress said:


> is their an FAQ (or wikipedia article) for water based paints..


You print with ink, not paint. I've never seen a good faq on the subject, and Wikipedia is still well behind in the print area.



lowStress said:


> Could a little dryer cure water based inks if the belt is moving slow enough? What about discharge?


I've heard very contradictory opinions on this, and I would like a definitive answer myself. Some say the only tunnel dryer that will effectively cure waterbased ink is a large gas dryer, other people use a small electric (so, pretty much the opposite). I don't know if the gas dryer group are simply wrong, or if the small electric dryer group have low standards / insufficient wash tests under their belt.


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## lowStress (Jan 2, 2007)

> I've heard very contradictory opinions on this, and I would like a definitive answer myself. Some say the only tunnel dryer that will effectively cure waterbased ink is a large gas dryer, other people use a small electric (so, pretty much the opposite). I don't know if the gas dryer group are simply wrong, or if the small electric dryer group have low standards / insufficient wash tests under their belt.




Most technical data in the screen printing industry is written for people who are making 1,000s of shirts a day and not really written for the cottage industry printer(like me). So it is no wonder why certain people *believe* a gas dryer is the way to go. If you are curing 100s of yards of thick terry cloth with heavy ink deposits every day, then maybe you need a gas dryer. But I am thinking that if an iron can give good results, that a simple electronic belt dryer(or flash unit) should be a useful tool.

If all we are trying to do is evaporate the solvent (water) from the ink solution which then causes the pigment to bond to the fabric at a specific temperate I don't see why a radiant heat source (gas or electric) would not supply sufficient heat to evaporate the solvent over a given period of time.

I could be talking out the side of my arse, because I do not fully understand the chemistry of water based ink systems.

I am curious:
1) At what temperature does water base ink bond to the substrate (cotton jersey)
2) Is bond even the correct concept for what the pigment does? 
3) At approx. what temperature does a cotton t-shirt begin to scortch?
4) Do blank t-shirts give off steam when heated? If so, why. I never checked this out. i've always been under the impression that the smoke was coming from the ink deposit. Which leads to...
5) does properly cured water base ink still emit a steam?

I am setting up a test station right now. These are questions I am trying to check out, which should help understand how to get the best cure with a rugged little DIY system.


Oh, and finally, how does one measure the wash test. I've bought stuff from Diesel that started looking pretty shaby at about 8-10 washes. On the other hand I heat set speed ball magenta ink on a white tee with an iron that still look vibrant at about 8 washes. How should the print look at 10 washes?

Peace


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## Solmu (Aug 15, 2005)

lowStress said:


> If all we are trying to do is evaporate the solvent (water) from the ink solution which then causes the pigment to bond to the fabric at a specific temperate I don't see why a radiant heat source (gas or electric) would not supply sufficient heat to evaporate the solvent over a given period of time.


That's been my thinking, but I lack sufficient knowledge of the process to be confident.



lowStress said:


> At what temperature does water base ink bond to the substrate (cotton jersey)


Going by the curing instructions on several inks I use, it can actually be achieved at different temperatures. I suppose plastisol needs to achieve a fixed temperature for a chemical reaction to occur, whereas waterbased ink needs to evaporate the solvent.

So it's a function of temperature *and* time. Off the top of my head it's about 9 minutes and 120c at one end, and 2-3 minutes and 180c at the other.



lowStress said:


> Is bond even the correct concept for what the pigment does?


While it sounds fair to me, I don't know.



lowStress said:


> At approx. what temperature does a cotton t-shirt begin to scortch?


I suspect (having scorched fabric with an iron, etc.) that this is also a function of temperature and time. I'm told (but haven't seen) that you can scorch cotton if you leave it in an industrial dryer for too long - in which case we'd be talking temperatures somewhere in the 80c-100c range only (but also like 20 minutes).



lowStress said:


> Do blank t-shirts give off steam when heated?


Yes. 



lowStress said:


> If so, why.


Ambient humidity; fabrics retain moisture.



lowStress said:


> does properly cured water base ink still emit a steam?


My speculation would be no: if you remove all moisture it is cured, at which point it has nowhere to go but to burn.



lowStress said:


> Oh, and finally, how does one measure the wash test.


I believe fifty washes is standard. Obviously you'd expect some wear by then, but it should still hold up. I don't think I've bothered to actually test beyond about 35 (I'd have to check my notes).



lowStress said:


> I've bought stuff from Diesel that started looking pretty shaby at about 8-10 washes.


They fail  I've had uncured ink last that long.



lowStress said:


> How should the print look at 10 washes?


Like new.


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## noortrd (Nov 7, 2007)

try matsui water based in.


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## lowStress (Jan 2, 2007)

> I believe fifty washes is standard. Obviously you'd expect some wear by then, but it should still hold up. I don't think I've bothered to actually test beyond about 35 (I'd have to check my notes).


What constitutes your wash cycle? Wash and dry, or just washing. 35 washes would be about 11 hours at the laundry mat! Forget about the print, what was the quality of the fabric at that point? 

I set up a flash drying station today and started running some experiments. I admit I am a little unscientific because I don't have a accurate way to measure the temperature. But I was curing for exactly 3 minutes with the heater exactly 5 inches from the garment.

I scorched one very thin jersey sample. But was able to save it with scorch remover.

I will take some different samples with different ink colors and additives (bonder and catalyst) to the laundromat tomorrow and do some wash testing and post photos of my results.

Talk to you then.

Regarding Matsui inks. I called Westix today and am thinking about getting some samples to play around with. I am interested in the High Opacity series. If anyone has experience with those, please let me know how that stuff feels and what kind of coverage you get one black cotton jersey


Cheers,
Alex


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## corradomatt (Jan 16, 2007)

Matsui has a new opaque water based ink out called 301 HO Series. It's still kinda new but it works unbelievably. The white is very easy to print and very opaque on dark garments. The ink is a little tricky to cure, but no more difficult than plastisol to cure. The ink cures with about the same settings as plastisol ink......it is best to have a conveyor dryer but can be cured with a flash unit. I wouldn't recommend trying to cure these inks without at least a flash dryer.

The 301 series is also eco-friendly and organic ink that prints through up to 300 mesh without drying in the screen.


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## tpope (Oct 3, 2007)

Thanks for the info on Matsui inks corradomatt!


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## Solmu (Aug 15, 2005)

lowStress said:


> What constitutes your wash cycle? Wash and dry, or just washing.


Whatever the care instructions dictate. I don't put my own t-shirts through the dryer, but in this case I did. Really I was hoping I'd get worse results than I did: I wanted to see problems, apply more rigorous methods, eliminate problems. Reality for my wash tests is it didn't seem to make much difference.



lowStress said:


> 35 washes would be about 11 hours at the laundry mat!


If one were silly enough to go to a laundry mat and to do it all in a row, but since I did neither of those things... 

Wash tests were spread over time in a domestic washer, chucking the samples in with each normal load. That way it mimicked home conditions better, and didn't waste time / water / effort running just samples. Not as scientific, but I'm not Nike 



lowStress said:


> Forget about the print, what was the quality of the fabric at that point?


Fabric and print were both basically fine. Some fibrillation, but nothing unbearable. A bit of fading, not considerable. The prints with uncured ink were still quite visible, though definitely faded (especially the finer details).

I'm sure if I went and found my control and compared the two the difference would be obvious, but on their own (a normal context) they hold up fine.


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