# Farming out sublimation overseas



## SubCreate (Aug 30, 2016)

What are the advantages and disadvantages of farming out sublimation work overseas?

Can anyone recommend a production facility in States or Canada?


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## customprinted (May 26, 2014)

Volume?? 


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## SubCreate (Aug 30, 2016)

customprinted said:


> Volume??


Volume would be 25 long sleeve shirts at first order. Then I imagine 1-offs. 

Also don't the overseas companies showcase your work to other potential customers regardless of a signed agreement? Not sure.


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## ZO6 KLR (Jan 8, 2013)

Sub, I tried to answer your PM but your mailbox quota is full.

There are pros and cons to overseas production and sometimes you just do not know what you are going to get. In the last two weeks we have picked up three companies that were sourcing overseas. I asked each of them why they decided to source locally (US).

1) Communication. There is a huge lack of it when it comes to foreign production. Sometimes artwork
changes at the last minute and locally you can sometimes change it before it rolls into production. Good
luck trying to modify artwork that is foreignly produced.
2) Inconsistency in sizing from job to job. A size small this month is a different size next month. 
3) Color matching. You can submit artwork with a specific blue and it may be fine. The next time you 
repeat that order you will see that maybe that blue doesn't quite match the original blue you had
ordered previously. Try explaining that to your customer.
4) General lack of quality. This can be in terms of color richness, depth of blacks and reds, etc. This
might also be stitch quality with broken or crooked stitching or skipped stitches. What about how the
garment actually hangs on the body. Does it have an acceptable drape or does it look like a one-size
fits most Hefty bag fit. Unflattering patterns are the norm for overseas production.
5) So let's say you finally receive your apparel. How long did it take? Hmmmm. Okay, if was an accept-
able lead time, what if you have an issue with a shirt? Now what are you going to do, send it back?
HaHaHa. No, you won't send it back. So how do you replace the problem shirt? You don't, because
a) they won't print just one b) it's going to be a hassle because of the lack of communication and c)
your client is picking the shirts up in the morning.

But all in all, you got it cheap and that is what counts, huh? Don't expect inexpensive, quality and quick turnaround
all to be in the same sentence.

The companies we brought on board with us said they DO NOT CARE if the pricing is more. They just want quality and want to be able to talk to a person and communicate. They are sick and tired of dealing with the BS.

Back to the original amount of shirts requested. You will be hard pressed to get one-offs done, especially cut and sew. There is a reason for minimums. Most are 12 pcs or more. You may find someone to do one but do not expect the price to be friendly. This is better done with all-over printing on a pre-made shirt. But then you deal with voids, creases, etc. That's a whole 'nother discussion by itself.


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## customprinted (May 26, 2014)

I really dont see the point/real savings in this volume scenario, what ZO6 wrote is right on, believe me you will avoid endless amounts of stress. 


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## Signature Series (Jun 11, 2016)

Z06 KLR has some great points and in fact those same points of concern can be applied to every USA based cut and sew shop as well as whether you are dealing with a company in Vietnam or NYC there are really great shops and really poor shops. The most critical issue Z06 pointed out was communication. It can be a nightmare. You may not even have a clue you are not on the same page until products arrive. With that said many times customers are their own worst enemy and do not always tell the whole story. Most issues with color shifting and sizing issues people will refer to is caused by them shopping for the cheapest vendor. There is a reason they are shopping overseas - $$$. If they can get a better deal flipping to a different overseas vendor they flip. Just like with flipping dye sub shops in the USA, colors will shift and the patterns/sizings will as well. The one area I will defend overseas shops is their seamstresses. If you are dealing with a legit company they are good. 

The main issue is at 25 and then one offs you are not even close to sniffing the number needed to make going overseas even viable considering the risk. One offs are an issue anywhere but especially overseas. That is changing and changing pretty quick. There is software being ported from an in-house system to a commercial system that will change how cut and sew shops work. Although producing one offs will always cost more than creating run of a 100 the gap will dramatically reduced. We are working with them alpha testing and the solution is mind numbing. From our early calculations we will reduce production set up time 30% and increase sales by 20% simply by implementing the solution and rolling it out the front end to our customers. The other real benefit of the software is it will open the doors to many desktop dye sub folks to partner with a cut and sew shop to offer a wide range of products ranging from the ever popular sportswear to high end fashion, to backpacks, to purses, etc. Currently most of the cut and sew shops are based on sportswear leaving a huge whole for fashion. Imagine working with an artist and having one of their works moved onto a purse or a ladies top? Working with photographers to apply their work to backpacks or pants. Imagine taking a picture on a cell phone log into an app and have the pic wrap around an item viewed in a 3D model by the customer who can then click and purchase.

Software has changed the way the world works and if this solution comes to market it will change cut and sew.


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## SubCreate (Aug 30, 2016)

Interesting stuff. I can go by with communication, just the one-offs and quality control would be the biggest issue.

Anyone out there doing cut and sew for other companies in other states or in Canada? I would imagine there is some sort of confidentiality contract needed. I'd rather farm work out if I can and not extremely keen on overseas taking the business. 

Contemplating not buying all this equipment and finding a good reliable source that wants the business and keeps their equipment running, forming a good relationship. PM me if interested.


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## FatboyGraphics (Sep 20, 2009)

there are good and bad overseas companies. I've spent a lot of money to find a good one...and I have.
I think the biggest thing that makes mine good is they use my templates. (i've gotten samples that are no where near fitting correctly). So i know the sizes are correct.
The only issues i have had are a missing shirt here or there, and a error in a new run of shirts that i made a change on, but they used the old graphics.
I think it also has helped that i've been using the same production company for 2+ years so the relationship has been built and when i tell them they messed up, they understand i'm not making things up and they fix it on my next shipment. 

Yes...they will do 1 offs....but....they have to ship in bulk, so they only ship once or twice a week depending on the current work load. But when I tell my company that they missed a shirt and it needs to ship out in the next shipment 9 times out of 10 it does. If i tell them I need this job rushed, 9 times out of 10 it ships when i ask.

I firmly believe its a relationship that has been built on trust and it goes both ways. 

I tested out one company this year who offered better pricing. They told me my order would ship in 2 weeks and it shipped close to 4 weeks. Needless to say they didn't get anymore of my business even though the quality was decent.

do I wish I could partner with a US based company? Absolutely but unfortunately the only way for me to be competitive in my market is to use over seas production....until I purchase my own equipment, hire more employees, and rent a new wharehouse space. Otherwise, I can't compete and make a living in my market.


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## SubCreate (Aug 30, 2016)

FatBoy, don't you have your own equipment though? I swear I saw your posts on Mutoh stuff and doing nozzle checks.


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## selanac (Jan 8, 2007)

You would think doing a One Off overseas would be really expensive. There was a company that does Uniforms and other products in North Carolina. 

Do you cut and sew yourself, or do you need the company to do that also?


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## FatboyGraphics (Sep 20, 2009)

SubCreate said:


> FatBoy, don't you have your own equipment though? I swear I saw your posts on Mutoh stuff and doing nozzle checks.


I have the printer big enough to....but not a press big enough to.
Nor the man power or space to run at the production level i would need to run at to keep up with the quantity of jobs i do.

i use to work at a company that did in house fully sublimated apparel...in my opinion to run smoothly, you need at a minimum...1 artist, 1 printer/press operator, 1 cutter/sorter/assistant, and then the seamstress to sew everything.
Otherwise, you'll get a bottle neck somewhere in the production line if you are doing decent volume. 

For my work load, for me to even consider moving all my production inhouse (other then equipment), i would need to hire 3 additional employees. I can't afford that.


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## FatboyGraphics (Sep 20, 2009)

selanac said:


> You would think doing a One Off overseas would be really expensive. There was a company that does Uniforms and other products in North Carolina.
> 
> Do you cut and sew yourself, or do you need the company to do that also?


It is almost impossible...and it is very expensive...to do 1 single piece, and have that single piece shipped...correct.
But if you order continuously and get shipments weekly, the 1 offs just get tossed in the box with everything else, so its not any more expensive then my 24 piece job.


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## softballover (Nov 21, 2010)

we run our own in house cut and sew, there are/is huge learning curves but it is we ll worth it to produce in North America. We are growing 30-40% per year and are again purchasing new/faster/larger equipment to keep up to demand.

In my opinion it makes me proud to offer something made in Canada, by Canadians. We have established a couple of relationships manufacturing for other brands and are proud to offer that service...

But, as Steve has said you need a minimum of 4 employees to even start up. Is it worth it... yes very much so ...


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## Signature Series (Jun 11, 2016)

Fatboy has it dialed in about as good as you are going to get for dealing overseas. Regardless what country your apparel is made there are good shops and bad shops yet there are not many options for outsourcing cut and sew. Price is always an issue and it is compounded by people pretending to do the work who are basically farming out the work to a real shop. There are more people posing as a cut and sew shop than there are actual cut and sew shops. If you are not dealing directly with the shop itself you will never get a price that you can afford to make money. So how can you tell if someone is really making the garments or trying to broker your deal? Get references and a little thing we have picked up on is ask for pictures of like items you are seeking to be made. The key is "picture" NOT a mock up of the item done in Illustrator, Corel or PSD of the finished item. Brokers rarely see the finished goods thus have no way to take a picture.

A top end cut and sew shop has the upper hand in all this as they can pick and choose who they want to work with. Every top end cut and sew shops field inquires on going from people that are going to make their millions on a new clothing brand. In our experience maybe, at most, 1 in 50 are even prepared. If you are looking to outsource be very prepared to answer at least a few basic questions or you in most likelihood will not be taken seriously.

Out of the gate know what you are wanting produced as there are two basic kind of shops. One that does the basic apparel and those that do more complicated items that require buttons, zippers, etc. 

A few of the questions you will want to have an answer to - 

1. Number of units per month by month. Many cut and sew shops have a "season" and will want to know the months and the qty to see how it fits into their current production run.

2. What services do you require? Pattern making, designing, shipping to customer direct or just print, cut and sew?

3. Required turn around time. The longer you have the easier it is to slide into production runs without a disruption.

4. Fabric - do you have specific fabric needs? 

5. What software do you use to design?

The list goes on but this is the very basics you will want to know before making that call and the most important, by far, is how many units per month by month.


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## Signature Series (Jun 11, 2016)

FatboyGraphics said:


> I have the printer big enough to....but not a press big enough to.
> Nor the man power or space to run at the production level i would need to run at to keep up with the quantity of jobs i do..
> 
> For my work load, for me to even consider moving all my production inhouse (other then equipment), i would need to hire 3 additional employees. I can't afford that.


I would suggest looking at creating a plan to move everything in house over time. Thinking about doing it all at once can be overwhelming for one person. Designers are a dime a dozen and that work can easily be outsourced. The real trick would be to find a qualified production seamstress to do the sewing for you. They are out there but far and few between. This would allow you to simply purchase the press which is a good chunk and at most hire one part time person to press and cut. Once you feel comfortable and start to understand the different processes you can start to bring the other pieces in-house as well. Take a few baby steps and you will get there.


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## ZO6 KLR (Jan 8, 2013)

Signature Series said:


> Once you feel comfortable and start to understand the different processes you can start to bring the other pieces in-house as well.


I totally agree with what Signature pointed out. We started with a basic understanding of sewing (basic crew, beanie, etc) but we soon got a real education when we brought in an efficiency expert in apparel manufacturing. 

What he told us hurt but it was something that we needed to understand if we were to take this as a serious manufacturer. He basically told us to throw all of our patterns away and start over. Our workflow was bottlenecked and our quality was not "acceptable" in terms of industry standards. Ouch.

It was the best thing that could have happened in all honesty, though. We hired a pattern maker and grader. We then sourced a sample maker. We bought all new sewing equipment. We got a true education on lean production, workflow and a better grasp in general on what we were doing.

fast forward to today we are now proficient with cycling, compression and more technical sewing. Do we know everything? No. We are still learning and will continue to learn. Every time we fail it is something we evaluate, correct it and move on. EVERY thing we do is a learning process.

I do not mind sharing this as I want others to know that a lot of shops go through this. There are tons of factors that can go wrong and will. It is how you accept these issues and progress forward that makes you truly successful.


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## FatboyGraphics (Sep 20, 2009)

Signature Series said:


> I would suggest looking at creating a plan to move everything in house over time. Thinking about doing it all at once can be overwhelming for one person. Designers are a dime a dozen and that work can easily be outsourced. The real trick would be to find a qualified production seamstress to do the sewing for you. They are out there but far and few between. This would allow you to simply purchase the press which is a good chunk and at most hire one part time person to press and cut. Once you feel comfortable and start to understand the different processes you can start to bring the other pieces in-house as well. Take a few baby steps and you will get there.


oh its very heavily on my mind. Its where we are heading....just taking the slow road. Been in the industry for 10 years...running my own business for 6 years. Love this stuff! All i do is educate myself on it.


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## Signature Series (Jun 11, 2016)

FatboyGraphics said:


> oh its very heavily on my mind. Its where we are heading....just taking the slow road. Been in the industry for 10 years...running my own business for 6 years. Love this stuff! All i do is educate myself on it.


Z06 had a great idea - start doing cut and sew beanies. All you need is fleece and to be honest you would not even need a true production seamstress to do these. We move a ton of these and very simple to make.


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## wackhaus (Mar 30, 2013)

SubCreate said:


> What are the advantages and disadvantages of farming out sublimation work overseas?
> 
> Can anyone recommend a production facility in States or Canada?


RPL supplies will fulfill short or large sublimation orders. Really quick turnaround, they do rush jobs, etc. Their factory and warehouse is in garfield nj, so i actually buy a lot of my blanks from them and pick up myself since im close in ny, so i dont have to pay shipping 
If you have a production order you can call them 973-772-6601 i spoke to alicia but everyone ive dealt with there is very helpful


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## softballover (Nov 21, 2010)

We make everything in house, and its has 100% been the best descision i could have made. 

However, lol.... the learning curve is steep, the machines are $$$ and finding a good, seamstress is the # 1 thing you need to look for before investing any $$. 

without a excellent seamstress you will go nowhere in this business. 

And be prepared to fork out some serious $$$, don't think that the cheapest equipment "will do" you'll just be wasting money like I did while we learned the ropes...

But its very rewarding manufacturing in house, being proud of a product made in Canada, employing people... best choice of my life


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## UCDISPLAY (Mar 19, 2016)

we do them in Phoenix, AZ. sublimation, cut & saw, screen printing etc..


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