# Oven for mugs



## sewon (Sep 4, 2007)

I found a Black & Decker Convection Toaster Oven at Walmart for $30. It does have a Convection Bake setting. It is small though, just one level. Will this work OK for mugs? Someone said something to me once that there were minimum oven size requirements for it to work properly with the mugs. Thank you!


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## jpkevin (Oct 22, 2007)

I may work, but it is hard to say. If the oven is too small the hot heating element may get too close to the mug and brown it a bit. You may be able to overcome that by using a piece of aluminum foil like you would with food in an oven.


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## imeccentric (May 13, 2007)

When I first started doing mugs I just used our regular oven. No problems at all .


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## davej1956 (Dec 20, 2009)

I have been told that you must have the convection type oven. I use a B&D convection ran around $99 and it works great, never had an issue doing mugs. I wouldn't want to wast my wraps at $25 each to test the cheaper oven and see if it works. They might melt down.


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## lben (Jun 3, 2008)

I have a Hamilton Beach rotisserie, convection oven that I got at Walmart for less than $100. It's about 1' x 1.5' in outer dimensions. It's just the right size for water bottles and mugs (though I prefer the mug press for the mugs).


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

imeccentric said:


> When I first started doing mugs I just used our regular oven. No problems at all .


When you cook your food in that oven do you realize that sub inks form into a gas during the heating and that gas is in a sealed oven compartment?


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## lben (Jun 3, 2008)

That's why I bought one just for sublimation. Don't want that stuff in my food.


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## imeccentric (May 13, 2007)

Not another tree hugger. Yes, there is a gas and it leaves when the oven is opened. You get just as much gas in the air from any method. If you do a lot of sublimation, you need a vent to the outside. Common sense.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

imeccentric said:


> Not another tree hugger. Yes, there is a gas and it leaves when the oven is opened. You get just as much gas in the air from any method. If you do a lot of sublimation, you need a vent to the outside. Common sense.


Ummm ... does that oven not have walls that the gas can cling to and stay there after cool down and reform to a solid again clinging to your oven walls ... and then later re-gas when the oven is heated again when you cook your food later at 400 degs? 

Yes, let's use common sense, don't ever mix your food preparation with your sublimation process. And no I am not a "tree hugger", it has nothing to do with being "green", I just don't want that junk in my food, not sure if it is very *nutritious* or not.


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## lben (Jun 3, 2008)

If you go to any industry website that sells sublimation supplies you will see that doing sublimation in your regular cooking oven is discouraged due to cross contamination of the dye gas into the food. I don't know if they know whether or not it is safe to eat this stuff, but they all recommend getting a small table top oven for doing sublimation in. We do know that you are supposed to sublimate in a well ventilated area because the gas is toxic.

Guess that makes me a tree hugging smart a** too.


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## maskman (Apr 2, 2011)

I have a roastereia(spelling ?) oven I bought at a yard sale for $10 bucks ,lol. 
I also have a thermometer, so I can keep a eye on the temp. 


I agree with mgparrish, we dont use our oven for anything but sublimation . We also use the printer for just sublimation (no switching inks). 
No point in dumping anymore toxins then necessary into your system ,lol


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## sewon (Sep 4, 2007)

Thanks everyone, except for all the unnecessary dumb**** stuff  Think I'll go with a bigger oven, like was said, no use wasting $29 bucks to find I have to spend $79 more. Plus glad someone mentioned water bottles. I wasn't even thinking about the fact that I want something tall enough to eventually do water bottles, steins, etc.

I had thought briefly about using my regular oven for sublimating since there are those that think its fine, but decided for a few bucks its not worth taking a chance. Especially since its not just my health I'm risking but my family's and anyone else I cook for.


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## lben (Jun 3, 2008)

Wise decision. Now take a cyber trip over to Conde and get some oven wraps. The mugs take one size, water bottles another, and I'm not sure about steins because I don't know how big they are. The aluminum water bottles take 5 minutes in the oven at 400 degrees F. Just be careful when you are putting on the wrap not to make it too tight because it will warp the shape of the bottle. For conde's wrap you will need to tighten the bolts to a shave less than 1/4" apart.

I also suggest before you start that you get a pair of Ove-gloves so that you don't burn your hands in the oven or on the hot wraps or substrates. They come one in a box - or at least they used to when I got mine. They're expensive, almost $20 each but well worth it. I tried regular oven mitts and didn't have the ability to move my fingers the way I needed to.


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## eagleact (Aug 3, 2010)

Does this one look good for mugs, water bottle, etc?
are there certain feature to look for when buying this for sublimation?

Hamilton Beach - Countertop Convection Oven - Black/Silver - 31100

Thanks

Brent


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## GordonM (May 21, 2012)

That should do it. Mine is similar, but made by Oster. Whatever you end up getting it's fine if it has just a mechanical timer (which you won't use anyway as it's not accurate enough) and manual temperature dials. You don't need all the fancy digital front panel stuff.


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## paintersspouse (Jul 26, 2012)

eagleact said:


> Does this one look good for mugs, water bottle, etc?
> are there certain feature to look for when buying this for sublimation?
> 
> Hamilton Beach - Countertop Convection Oven - Black/Silver - 31100
> ...


I use the same one.


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## eagleact (Aug 3, 2010)

thanks. That one from best buy is online only so since I am in a hurry I am going to Lowes to buy the largest one I can find. If this works out I plan to buy a wall oven size to get some quanitity going! Thanks.


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## GordonM (May 21, 2012)

If going for a big over later on, just be sure it's electric, and not gas. Some of these substrates give off some weird fumes. We don't want to read about you in the papers, and how you blew up your whole neighborhood!


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## eagleact (Aug 3, 2010)

We already had one fire in this industrial park. We do not need another one!
thanks.


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## vhanjj (Jul 18, 2010)

I just use also a regular oven for mugs.


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## lben (Jun 3, 2008)

vhanjj said:


> I just use also a regular oven for mugs.


I hope you aren't using the same one you cook food in. Those gases are toxic and get all over the oven. When you cook the gases are released again and get on the food.


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## GordonM (May 21, 2012)

lben said:


> I hope you aren't using the same one you cook food in. Those gases are toxic and get all over the oven.


I haven't heard (from an authority) that the gasses are actually toxic, though no sublimation ink for aftermarket decoration that I know of is FDA approved. Being toxic and not approved are two different thinks. I think the reason they suggest not to use your home oven is that there's no official approval for use on food prep surfaces.

(There *are* some sublimated plastics approved for food service, like lightly colored HDPE cutting boards. But these dyes are used during the manufacture of the plastic sheets, so the process can be more controlled.)

If sub inks are truly toxic, we shouldn't be selling sublimated mugs. A modern dishwasher gets up to 170-180 degrees, which is enough to begin some level of sublimation again. Those mugs are in the dishwasher for 30-40 minutes, and the process is repeated over and over again for how ever long the mug is used. 

If nothing else, I don't think the off-gassing from things like the paper and the silicone mug wraps make for good tasting food.


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## mn shutterbug (Mar 19, 2009)

I have my doubts that the mugs can start sublimating again in the dishwasher. If that was the case, after 3 years of using a couple mugs and having washed them in the dishwasher hundreds of times, they would surely by now show a difference in the image. Mine have not changed in the least bit.


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## rlaubert (Aug 14, 2011)

How many mugs can you do at a time in the Hamilton?


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## lben (Jun 3, 2008)

Sublimation should be done in a well ventilated area. They say that for a reason. The gas is released into the air and it's toxic. Might not kill you, but it will sure get you to coughing. The sublimation ink is trapped under the surface of the substrates which is why it doesn't scratch off or rub off or wash off. A dishwasher doesn't get to 400 degrees either and that's the temp it would have to reach to open those poly pores on the surface.

You can fit maybe 4-6 mugs on one layer in the Hamilton Oven. You will have to have a mug wrap for each of them. Wrap them tight and then cook for 15 minutes at 400 degrees F. Those mug wraps aren't cheap. You'd almost be better off buying a cheap mug press.


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## GordonM (May 21, 2012)

No where does it say it has to be 400 degrees to sublimate. That's only an optimum temperature. I sublimate soft plastics at under 200 degrees. You could sublimate a mug at that temperature, but it would take a long time.

But also consider that sub mugs are also said to be microwave safe. The surface temperature of a mug holding boiling water in a microwave oven can get well into 250+ degrees. That's certainly enough to re-gas under the right conditions. Are we hurting our customers selling product that might be dangerous?

Not all mugs have the same coating. Some recommend not putting them in the dishwasher. I've seen plenty of mugs where the colors have migrated due to repeated heating in a dishwasher.

Finally, If the gas of sublimation inks is toxic, it's not listed that way in the Sawgras MSDS sheets. What IS listed as toxic is a substance (ethylene glycol, AKA radiator fluid) that is depleted in seconds when the heat transfer begins. THIS is the stuff they talk about when they warn about fumes and toxicity. Bear in mind though there's not any left moments after the heat transfer begins. In fact, a lot of it dissipates when the ink dries.

Whatever secret ingredients that make up the dyes in Sawgrass inks (as an example) are not indicated in the safety sheet, and legally it would have to be if there were a toxic agent involved.

So in sum, I'm not recommending the use of the household oven for pressing mugs, but I also disagree with the idea that there's something inherently dangerous in the materials trapped inside the products we make. It's not the gas of the dye. I've never seen any legitimate source ever mention this. If there were, I'd stop pressing mugs and other products used around food in an instant. If sub gas is toxic, the solid form MUST be as well. That means we'd be selling poisoned t-shirts. I'd hate to think that were the case.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

GordonM said:


> No where does it say it has to be 400 degrees to sublimate. That's only an optimum temperature. I sublimate soft plastics at under 200 degrees. You could sublimate a mug at that temperature, but it would take a long time.
> 
> But also consider that sub mugs are also said to be microwave safe. The surface temperature of a mug holding boiling water in a microwave oven can get well into 250+ degrees. That's certainly enough to re-gas under the right conditions. Are we hurting our customers selling product that might be dangerous?
> 
> ...


Gordon,

Off-topic but check your PM inbox.


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## GordonM (May 21, 2012)

Yes, thanks, I saw that. I'll call Richard to see if the issues with the 7010 not completing its printing is fixed by this firmware update.


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## aperollmay (Mar 20, 2010)

I picked up my Hamilton convection over at Goodwill for under $20. Surprisingly both it's temperature gauge and my oven gauge read the same temp. Don't use it everyday but so far it hasn't let me down. I'd buy the one at best buy if I needed a new one.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

paintersspouse said:


> I use the same one.


How tall of an item will that do ... ie can it do Steins or maybe Cookie jars? thx


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## lben (Jun 3, 2008)

Last year I had to sublimate 72 water bottles and each baked in the oven for 5 minutes. The smell got so bad in there I had to open the windows and put a fan in front of it to suck out the fumes. Six months later I could still smell it in the family room. 

The ink on our finished products is trapped below the surface, making them safe for the consumers. You remind me of my grandson who things speed limit signs are just suggestions. The optimal temp for sublimation is 400 degrees F. Most of what I do is below that temp on my presses. I haven't done any sublimation below 350 degrees F before so I can't say if it gives off that same stench or not.

You did mention that gases are emitted at the onset of a transfer that are toxic but only for a few seconds. Those gases go somewhere and if you're sublimating using your food oven you might be getting that on your food. I personally would rather be safe than sorry.

Substrate manufacturers recommend not using the cooking oven for sublimation. I will go with their recommendation, regardless of whether or not the gases are toxic enough to end up on a MSDS.


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## lben (Jun 3, 2008)

mgparrish said:


> How tall of an item will that do ... ie can it do Steins or maybe Cookie jars? thx


I have done water bottles in it. I'm not sure how tall the steins are but the oven has adjustable shelves in it, so if you take one out and put the other all the way at the bottom you could get something taller, though I would say a cookie jar would be too tall. But the closer you are to those heating elements the more likely you would be to damage the wraps and those things aren't cheap.


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## GordonM (May 21, 2012)

But please understand that hard surface sublimation is only part of the business. I'd say most sublimation is done on fabric, and there is no "trapped below the surface" here.

There are "fumes" emitted, but those aren't the dye gasses. I am making the distinction here because of this: If sublimation dyes contain toxic chemicals that may be re-released when heated, or in solid form that could be ingested by small children or others, or in contact with sensitive skin, we need to leave this profession immediately! 

But, as I said, I don't believe this is the case (for one thing, disperse dyes have been used for decades in things like crayons, which are sold as non-toxic -- kids are fond of eating crayons). I don't believe the inks, and therefore the gasses from the inks, contain anything toxic, and I've not heard anything to the contrary. It's not the dye gas you smell, as there's actually very little of it. It's the glycol ether and other stuff in the liquid ink, plus coatings, plus paper, plus silicone sheets, and whatever.

I'm not trying to nit picks here, but if we accept as gospel that sublimation dyes are toxic, that opens us to liability, government inspection, and ethical questions. You can't control how your products are used once shipped, so it doesn't really matter if the dyes are "trapped" (they aren't really; they are through the entire coating, including right at the surface).

I follow what you're saying about the oven, and we are in complete agreement there. At the least the stinky fumes can make your food taste bad. And if you use a gas oven, there are combustion risks with the fumes.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

lben said:


> I have done water bottles in it. I'm not sure how tall the steins are but the oven has adjustable shelves in it, so if you take one out and put the other all the way at the bottom you could get something taller, though I would say a cookie jar would be too tall. But the closer you are to those heating elements the more likely you would be to damage the wraps and those things aren't cheap.


thx. For the cookie jars I love them but a PITA because all of the counter top type ovens are too small for those, and then I don't do in the regular oven we cook with. I don't want to end up with a kitchen range size oven dedicated to doing those. The cookie jars are like 9 inches tall. oh well


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## GordonM (May 21, 2012)

For tall items I turn the object on its side. Most of my wraps are the Cactus type, which are thick. I worried about hot spots but it doesn't seem to be a problem. I also sometimes use a silicone sheet on the bottom. I found some at Amazon rated up to 525 degrees. It provides a shield from the bottom element.

For the LRI wraps, the silicone sheet they use can be readily replaced for far less than the original price. Small Parts (Amazon) stocks them, though sometimes they're out of particular thicknesses and sizes. Last I checked the 1/16" or 3/32" sheets were about $8 a square foot, and rated for 525 degrees F.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

GordonM said:


> For tall items I turn the object on its side. Most of my wraps are the Cactus type, which are thick. I worried about hot spots but it doesn't seem to be a problem. I also sometimes use a silicone sheet on the bottom. I found some at Amazon rated up to 525 degrees. It provides a shield from the bottom element.
> 
> For the LRI wraps, the silicone sheet they use can be readily replaced for far less than the original price. Small Parts (Amazon) stocks them, though sometimes they're out of particular thicknesses and sizes. Last I checked the 1/16" or 3/32" sheets were about $8 a square foot, and rated for 525 degrees F.


Actually these are only 6.5 without the lid, you don't cook the lid, but the width is 6 inches so not saving much on it's side, and how would you do these on the side? 

I'm open for any suggestions on these, as I mentioned I hate to buy a big @SS oven just for these. 

You can see the cookie jar in the photo just in the off chance you haven't seen these before ... toward the back left side of the pic.


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## lben (Jun 3, 2008)

The water bottles I do in my Hamilton Beach oven are 7.25 inches tall and I bake them standing up. They fit. Sounds like those cookie jars would fit. I've never seen sublimatable cookie jars anywhere before. Who carries them?


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

lben said:


> The water bottles I do in my Hamilton Beach oven are 7.25 inches tall and I bake them standing up. They fit. Sounds like those cookie jars would fit. I've never seen sublimatable cookie jars anywhere before. Who carries them?


Great to know. They should fit!


The cookie jars are here, they have the special wraps and templates. 

http://www.laserreproductions.com/Sublimation-Cookie-Jars.html


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## GordonM (May 21, 2012)

I don't do the cookie jars, but I do the candy jars, which are also 6" tall. I started with these standing up. On my Oster the top element goes around the periphery, so it's possible to keep it away from the jar, but just barely. From bottom rack to top element is exactly 6", and 6.5" to the roof of the oven. So, likely too small for these jars.

If I did more of these I think I'd look for a second-hand oven range, and put it out in the garage. Here in SoCal, most houses are plumbed for gas appliances, and there's no 220 into the house. It's at the service box, of course, which is on the side of the garage. I don't see myself doing more of these, though. Still an expense (I don't do 220). My main clients are artists -- make that 'artistes' -- who will tolerate their work on mugs and totes, but cookie/candy jars seems too "commercial" or something!


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## martinwoods (Jul 20, 2006)

mgparrish said:


> Great to know. They should fit!
> 
> 
> The cookie jars are here, they have the special wraps and templates.
> ...


 
I know this is old but are you still using LRI? I just got 22 cookie jars and only 11 were good enough to print, coating was all messed up, chips/marks on them but the coating was the worst, have never seen coating that bad. Have they just gotten worse? would love to find another supplier because I like doing the cookie jars but when half are not usable that is not good business. I had to order 12 more to get here by Friday just so I can complete an order in time and hoping there are enough good ones Thanks


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

martinwoods said:


> I know this is old but are you still using LRI? I just got 22 cookie jars and only 11 were good enough to print, coating was all messed up, chips/marks on them but the coating was the worst, have never seen coating that bad. Have they just gotten worse? would love to find another supplier because I like doing the cookie jars but when half are not usable that is not good business. I had to order 12 more to get here by Friday just so I can complete an order in time and hoping there are enough good ones Thanks


 Definitely complain and return those. I bought mine a long time ago and didn't have any issues with the coatings. So looks like they made a bad batch.


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