# Epson 4900



## YoDan

I wonder who will be the first to convert this one 
**********************************

it looks like Epson is delivering a major upgrade to the 4xxx series of their printers. The Epson 4880 (the current generation 17" roll printer from Epson) is basically the same engine/chassis as the Epson 4000 which was announced way back in late 2003. So the 4880 is basically an upgraded 4000 in terms of ink and software technology. The 4900 on the other hand is a completely re-http://dtgweb.us1.list-manage.com/track/click?u=153df26016fd35a1e73caa1df&id=2c16478aa4&e=8074f52255engineered and redesigned 17" roll and sheet-fed printer. The obvious upgrades and new features include the addition of orange and green inks, a new rotary cutter, faster print speeds, automatic matte & photo black ink switch, automatic roll or sheet paper switch, and an optional spectroproofer for custom ICC profiles. These additions make this the biggest leap ever in terms of technology, speed, features, and quality for the 17" print size. Based on our experience with the 7900 and 9900, the 4900 will produce simply the best prints we've seen from any 17" format printer.
***********************
Dan
*"HAPPY PRINTING"*


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## Don-ColDesi

Good question Dan. The intrigue of this new platform is the addition of the two additional channels. Added print speed would be a benefit as well, especially for the 17" platform as it has been historically slower than the desktop (13") models. One question is droplet size. If Epson continues to move towards smaller and smaller droplets - the linear print speed gain will be negated by the need to print at higher resolutioin to get the same ink coverage which is crucial for direct to garment printing.

Now, on to the additional two channels. What do you put in them? Fifth white for better coverage at lower resolutons? Maybe fifth & sixth white for same reason? Orange and green for greater color gamut - and a whole lot more issues with getting profiles right? Maybe an extra white and the addition of a super rich spot black? Fact remains that most scenarios would require a commitment from the ink manufacturers to step up to the plate with new products.

I know that we have been toying with the possibilities for this platform at our development facility in Australia, but have not made a determination as of yet of whether to proceed with developing on it yet.


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## YoDan

Well for years we have talked about how spot colors would enhance our colors graetly so with it's ten color printing system including the Orange and Green inks it would be a GREAT addition/.
*Hey FredP what do you think* 
Dan
*"HAPPY PRINTING"*


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## Don-ColDesi

Challenge with spot colors is that their are so many options and changing out colors in a dtg is a costly and time consuming process - orange & green are very generic names - why not add true red and blue? I expect one additional white and either a richer black or a "clear" overcoat would be the best angle to take.


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## YoDan

Agreed, one more wkite ink channel and the ability to print that white ink layer at a lower resolution would really lower the print times.
Dan
*"HAPPY PRINTING"*


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## cavedave

The 4900 has roughly the same dots size as the 4880, so its going to be about the same in terms of amount of ink at a resolution as we get now.
But the print head is a 360dpi head so its 1.8 times faster than the 4880.

If you use the extra two channels for white then you will defintly be able to print a single pass of white ink for a black shirt at 1440x720 (most users use 1440x1440), one might be enough.
So you will printing the white layer in about 1/3 or the time it takes on a 4880 and the colour pass will be just under twice as quick. So this machine for a black shirt should be more than twice as fast as the current machine.

This is how we are suggesting a couple of OEM configure this machine (and its big brothers).

The alternative is slower times and bigger gamut by adding Orange and Green, we have actually done 8 color in the past CMYK Orange Green Red and Blue, Orange and Green defintly gave us a greater benefit than Red and Blue. Creating an ICC profile was challanging becuase of the small color gamuts on a t-shirt, but having done it once we know how to work around the problems.

Although personnaly I would go for speed, if one white is enough you could add just orange as this gives the best improvments as a single color and really helps the reds.

Best regards

-David


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## YoDan

*Specifications for the Stylus Pro 4900 Production Edition *

*Base Printing Technology*

Advanced MicroPiezo TFP print head with ink repelling coating technology
10-channel, drop-on-demand, ink jet print head
11-cartrides configured as:
O, G, C, LC, VM, VLM, Y, LK, LLK, PK or MK
Auto Head Alignment and Cleaning technology
Epson UltraChrome HDR ink technology
Professional-level pigment-based ink technology

*Nozzle Configuration*

Color and Monochrome 360 nozzles x10
*Droplet Technology*

Smallest droplet size 3.5 picoliters
Variable Droplet Technology can produce up to three different droplet sizes per print line

*Resolution*

2880 x 1440 dpi; 1440 x 1440 dpi, 1440 x 720 dpi;
720 x 720 dpi; 720 x 360 dpi; Draft 360 dpi
*Print Engine SpeedsA*

8" x 10" prints from 0:59 sec to 2:26Normal is 1:2811"x 14" prints from 1:42 to 4:04Normal is 2:3116"x 20" prints from 2:46 to 6:48Normal is 4:11
*Acoustic Noise Level*

Approximately 45 dB(A) according to ISO 7779

*Printer Language/Drivers*

Epson ESC/P®2 raster photographic drivers standard
Optional PANTONE licensed and SWOP certified Adobe PostScript RIP by EFI® (EFI eXpress included only with Designer Edition bundle)
Supported by most leading third-party RIPs

*Operating Systems Supported*

*Macintosh*Leopard 10.5 or higher (16-bit)*Windows*XP, Vista, and Windows 7 (32 & 64-bit)
*Printer Interfaces*

Includes as standard one hi-speed USB 2.0 (1.1 compatible) and one Ethernet port (10/100Base-T)
*Dimensions*

34"(W) x 16"(H) x 30"(D)
Printer weight: 115 lb
*BorderFree® Roll-Based Printing*

Complete borderless printing on the following roll media sizes: 8", 10", 11", 13", 14", 16", 16.5", 17"
Top and bottom edges can be automatically cut to any length when printing on roll media

Roll media sizeSingle roll up to 17" widthRoll media lengthUp to 132' (limited by core dia.)Cut-sheet size8" x 10" up to 17" x 24" mediaAuto-loading Cassette0.08 to 0.27mm thick media, 20 to 100 sheet capacity based on media type and thicknessMedia core compatibilityHandles both 2" and 3" cored mediaMax. roll media diameter4" (2"core) or 6" (3"core)Weight12 lb bond up to 1.5 mm
posterboardBuilt-in media cutterRotary cutting, Automatic and manual single pass cut on up to 17" wide roll media
*Epson SpectroProofer*

Optional 17-inch wide spectrophotometer developed jointly with X-Rite
Simple installation; fits cleanly into the front of the Epson Stylus Pro 4900*
Incorporates a high performance X-Rite ILS20 spectrophotometer for extreme measurement accuracy below 0.2 dECMC
UV-cut and non-UV-cut versions available at the time of purchase
Both black and white interchangeable backing plates included
Built-in print dryer to accelerate the dry-down and reading process
Built-in temperature sensors for internal mechanism and surrounding environment
When driven by the latest front-end RIP software, the Epson SpectroProofer can automate virtually any color management process in your workflow

* Adding SpectroProofer imparts three functional changes: Borderless printing and the front straight through thick-cut paper path are not available, minimum roll media cut length increases to 8.25 inches.


Starter Cartridge fill volume80 ml each color x 11 cartridges totalReplacement Cartridge fill volume200 ml each color x 11 cartridges totalInk cartridge shelf life (recommended)2 years from production date or 6 months after open
*Line Accuracy*

+ or - 0.2% of specified page length
*Display Permanence RatingsC*

Epson UltraChrome HDR Ink ColorUp to 200 yearsBlack-and-WhiteOver 200 years
*Environmental Characteristics*

Temperature Operating50° to 95°F (10° to 35°C)Storage-4° to 104°F (-20° to 40°C)Relative Humidity20 to 80%Operating40 to 50%Recommended storage5 to 85% (no condensation)
*Electrical Requirements*

VoltageAC 110-240 VFrequency50-60 HzCurrent1.0 A /110-120 VPower Consumption OperatingApprox. 52 W or lessStandbyLess than 8.5 WPower OffLess than 0.5 WENERGY STAR compliant

*Epson UltraChrome HDR Ink*
*Ink Cartridge**(200 ml)*Photo BlackT653100CyanT653200Vivid MagentaT653300YellowT653400Light CyanT653500Vivid Light MagentaT653600Light BlackT653700Matte BlackT653800Light Light BlackT653900OrangeT653A00GreenT653B00

ABased upon print engine speed only. Total throughput times depend upon front-end RIP, file size, printer resolution, ink coverage, networking, etc. Normal Mode based on SuperFine - 1440 dpi HS.
B Cartridge yields vary considerably based on images printed, print settings, temperature and humidity. Yields may be lower when printing infrequently or predominately with one ink color. A variable amount of ink remains in the cartridge after the "replace cartridge" signal. Part of the ink from the first cartridges is used for priming the printer. Ink is used for both printing and print head maintenance. All inks are used for both black and color printing. For more information about cartridges, see www.epson.com/cartridgeinfo
CDisplay permanence rating based on accelerated testing of prints on specialty media, displayed indoors, under glass. Actual print stability will vary according to media, printed image, display conditions, light intensity, humidity and atmospheric conditions. Epson does not guarantee longevity of prints. For maximum print life, display all prints under glass or lamination or properly store them.

*Epson Intelligent Ink CartridgesB*
Starter Cartridge fill volume
80 ml each color x 11 cartridges total
Replacement Cartridge fill volume
200 ml each color x 11 cartridges total
Ink cartridge shelf life (recommended)
2 years from production date or 6 months after open

*Line Accuracy*
+ or - 0.2% of specified page length
*Display Permanence RatingsC*
Epson UltraChrome HDR Ink 
Color
Up to 200 years
Black-and-White
Over 200 years

*Environmental Characteristics*
Temperature 
Operating
50° to 95°F (10° to 35°C)
Storage
-4° to 104°F (-20° to 40°C)
Relative Humidity
20 to 80%
Operating
40 to 50%
Recommended storage
5 to 85% (no condensation)

*Electrical Requirements*
Voltage
AC 110-240 V
Frequency
50-60 Hz
Current
1.0 A /110-120 V

Power Consumption 
Operating
Approx. 52 W or less
Standby
Less than 8.5 W
Power Off
Less than 0.5 W

ENERGY STAR compliant
*Products and Accessory Part Numbers*
Epson Stylus Pro 4900 Printer
SP4900HDR
Epson Stylus Pro 4900 Designer Edition 
(Includes EFI eXpress RIP)
SP4900DES
SpectroProofer 17"
SPECTRO17
SpectroProofer 17" with UV-cut Filter
SPECTRO17UV
Additional One-year Epson Preferred Plus Service
EPP49B1
Additional Two-year Epson Preferred Plus Service
EPP49B2
Additional One-year Epson Preferred Plus Service SpectroProofer only
EPPSPB1
Additional 2"/3" Roll Media Spindle
C12C811251
Replacement Printer Cutter Blade
C12C815351
Replacement Ink Maintenance Tank
T619000
Replacement Borderfree Maintenance Tank
T619100

*Epson UltraChrome HDR Ink*
*Ink Cartridge*
*(200 ml)*
Photo Black
T653100
Cyan
T653200
Vivid Magenta
T653300
Yellow
T653400
Light Cyan
T653500
Vivid Light Magenta
T653600
Light Black
T653700
Matte Black
T653800
Light Light Black
T653900
Orange
T653A00
Green
T653B00



Dan
*"HAPPY PRINTING"*


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## FredP

Having inspected our 4900 I can envision this thing printing t-shirts. It's a good fit, I think. Faster, more channels and same spot size. (Faster because it's a 360-nozzle head rather than a 180 nozzle head)

In my opinion the L versions of inks are kind of a waste when printing on cotton (you need a lot of volume so the fact that it's L is kid of mute) so that leaves us with the choices of either 1 or 2 spot colors in addition to extra white and/or clear coat.

Having not worked with the clear coat yet, I don't know how much of it it will take to get good coverage. Since it lays on top of areas that are already printed it "probably" won't need the type of volume that white ink does. So... one channel might be enough for clear coat. 

That leaves us with what to put in the last extra channel. If I were doing it for myself I'd go with an extra white and take advantage of the speed... but that's just me.

In second place would be an extra black. Of course, there's no magic bullet... some might prefer "dual cmyk + 2 clear coats" if they only do light garments. Etc. Of course, the argument for O & R or true-red & true-blue is always there.

I'm sure it's a discussion that will be had more than once between us rip guys and the hardware guys. I for one can't wait to see a 4900-based dtg printer.

** Fred


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## DAGuide

I like the concept of a clear coat, but would propose to the ink manufacturers to make the clear coat have the following two properties:
1. Make it so that it can help improve washability without adding too much more of a hand.
2. Allow the clear coat to either act as a stronger adhesive (like in screen printing) or a blocking agent (should it be necessary) to make the use of mixed media (i.e. foil, glitter,...) easier / more reliable to do.

The 2nd one is what I think can help increase the price of a dtg printed garment being sold to a customer the most. Just need to find a way to improve the washability of doing foil with dtg inks and not use as much dtg ink in doing so. If you were to print the clear coat and only have the foil stick to the clear coat, then you could do a multi-color print with only a small, detailed portion of the artwork with foil like you can do in screen printing. But of course, we are just dreaming right now and it is time to get back to work.

Have a great weekend!

Mark

P.S. Dupont, are you listening?


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## YoDan

> But of course, we are just dreaming right now and it is time to get back to work.


All ideas, good or bad start off as dreams  I dream all the time!
Dan
*"HAPPY PRINTING"*


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## loloxa

I don't know how feasible it is due to particle size, but a glitter channel ,to be able to produce realistic metallics, would be avery nice addition. There are some wide format printers that can be fitted with metallic inks in addition to white and CMYK, but it would be nice if just the "shine" could be added to any color. I could very well be off base with this.


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## zoom_monster

Hell if we're dreaming here... how about a gloss/binder coat that white can stick to, or a gloss Binder/fixer


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## estrada

Several people in this post have stated that more white ink channels means more white ink at lower resolutions. So the question is the following: what if a 4880 or an r1900 were configure to have all 8 white channels? If I currently need 4 white channels at a 1440 resolution to get a good underbase, could I get the same amount of ink using 8 white channels at 720? Or taking it further, 10 white channels to print at 360? Is this possible?

Obviously you would need another printer set as a dual CMYK to print the colors.


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## DAGuide

Sure, the concept in theory would work. Sounds a lot like the Eclipse dtg printer.


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## estrada

Mark, could Multirip be configured this way for an R1900? Also, could it be configured for a t-jet 2 printing 7 white channels and having another T2 printing CMYK+LC,LM and LM? Thanks.


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## kevrokr

We have one of these in-house...big.


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## DAGuide

estrada said:


> Mark, could Multirip be configured this way for an R1900? Also, could it be configured for a t-jet 2 printing 7 white channels and having another T2 printing CMYK+LC,LM and LM? Thanks.


Anything can be done. The problem is you are asking for some custom coding to send the white underbase to one printer and the color layer to another printer. This would require someone to pay for the developer's coding time.

Mark


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## YoDan

Three-Level Black Ink Technology
· Simultaneously uses Black, Light Black, and Light Light Black inks
*Print Mode*
Fine - 720 dpi HS* (HS = High Speed)
*8 x 10 *0:59
*11 x 14 *1:42
 *16 x 20 *2:46



I think that this is enough Black ink 
FredP are you ready to convert one to DTGInks?
Dan
*"HAPPY PRINTING"*


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## cavedave

Supporting all whites for a driver is easy (in fact many of the TJet drivers already have this as we experimented with this some time back), pretty sure the the TJet2 driver does.

But as Mark says automating the white to one printer and the color to another would take some development, we have spec'd this out for an OEM and its about 2 weeks work of programming. You could of course do this manually but for a completely automated process in the RIP there is work to do in our product (EZ RIP, FastRIP etc).


Best regards

-David


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## estrada

Thanks everyone for the responses. I understand what you say about the need to automate the process to print the underbase in one printer and colors on the other. However I think that the user could do this manually by having 2 separate files. One would be a grayscale file for the underbase sent to the white-only printer and the other a regular file with the color information sent to the CMYK printer. 

By separating white from colors, one could cut print time in half in both underbase and colors, right? I think that would benefit people that have 2 or more printers.


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## FredP

You can manually do it on RIPs that have the ability to re-assign channels. For example you could set all the channels on MultiRIP GP to WIHTE and RIP the job, then save the white print file. Set the channels to CMYKCMYK then RIP the file again and keep the color print file. Then use a utility like Printer Jockey to send the white print file to one printer and the color one to another. A royal pain in the arse but at least it can be done without paying for RIP development.

Registration is whole different conversation... you'll be physically moving the platen from one printer to another. Don't expect miracles ;-)

-- Fred


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## estrada

Thanks a lot Fred. I'm gonna give it a try. I understand that paying for the development would be the way to go. But I think this could be an easy way to test the concept and see if it works.


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## jcameron

Speesh. I am getting ready to purchase a machine and I see this post. I wonder when the first company will have one of these ready. I am lookin at dtg k3 raptor, viper, veloci jet, or maybe a neoflex. Not sure yet, but the dtg brand is right down the street from me. May have to wait for the 4900 based unit.


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## Don-ColDesi

One thing to note on the two printer thing (one white, one color) is that we are already pressing the edge of how quickly you can print the color layer on top of the white with the faster small printers (HM1-C, Veloci-Jet, Mod-1 etc) - until the white ink can set faster to accept the colors I think we are about at a limit for dark garment throughput. We experimented with a machine called the eclipse that was basically two HM1's tied together - getting enough white ink down and not having the colors run on the shirt was virtually impossible - unless you built in a delay. If you build in a delay - there goes productivity. Better to have a bank of slower printers doing the whole job and staggered to get good production. I see this one as being in the hands of the chemists at this time - not the engineers.


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## allamerican-aeoon

A2 size of Epson printer is King of Epson. Convert to 4900 from 4880 will take minimum 6 months - 1 year of researching. I guess this with past expriences. I could be wrong but comfortably I can bet. Good thing to NeoFlex owner is possibly use same NeoFlex base and put on 4900 on top with very reasonable price. we have many 4900's on my floor and keep scartching head (joke).
Our goal is when 4900 is ready to modify AA wants all NeoFlex owners can convert to 4900 with minimum cost. As same as "Take one down, Take one on". I have no fear on this.


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## zoom_monster

allamerican said:


> A2 size of Epson printer is King of Epson. Convert to 4900 from 4880 will take minimum 6 months - 1 year of researching. I guess this with past expriences. I could be wrong but comfortably I can bet. Good thing to NeoFlex owner is possibly use same NeoFlex base and put on 4900 on top with very reasonable price. we have many 4900's on my floor and keep scartching head (joke).
> Our goal is when 4900 is ready to modify AA wants all NeoFlex owners can convert to 4900 with minimum cost. As same as "Take one down, Take one on". I have no fear on this.


So Peter..... are you committing to bringing spot colors and or Hexachrome to the marketplace? BTW..what is "scarthing"


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## allamerican-aeoon

jcameron said:


> Speesh. I am getting ready to purchase a machine and I see this post. I wonder when the first company will have one of these ready. I am lookin at dtg k3 raptor, viper, veloci jet, or maybe a neoflex. Not sure yet, but the dtg brand is right down the street from me. May have to wait for the 4900 based unit.


If you are interest on dtg k3 raptor veloci -- etc. You do not need to wait they are A3(1900. 13inch wide) smaller size than A2 (4900. 24 inch wide).
There will be 4990 or something will come up again. Waiting and waiting will sacrifies you opportunity.


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## allamerican-aeoon

zoom_monster said:


> So Peter..... are you committing to bringing spot colors and or Hexachrome to the marketplace? BTW..what is "scarthing"


I was testing your spelling ability. You are passed. I will keep doing so to test you guys.


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## Don-ColDesi

My expectations are that the 4900 platform is at least 6-12 months to develop like Peter stated. There are other issues to address besides the 10 channels. The ink chip issue is rumored to be more of a bear than it is with the 1900. Going to a hexachrome would be interesting, but not practical unless a number of vendors went to it as the manufacture of the extra ink colors would require some sort of guarantee to the manufacturer. I'd be surprised if there is a 4900 based machine ready in 2011 at all.


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## zoom_monster

Don-SWF East said:


> The ink chip issue is rumored to be more of a bear than it is with the 1900.


Don, Does Epson do this by design to make it difficult for the "aftermarket" crowd and do they offer any assistance to the DTG industry?


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## allamerican-aeoon

Digital Print is not just one piece art.
1. Hardware Engineering 
2. Software, firmware, RIP
3. Chemical
and YOU.
then we are ready to go. All above have to be in one place. One missing is same as one leg off from tripot.
It is not discouraging, it is challeging. We made in past everytime, we will make it again this time. 
Many many sellers (almost all) are trying to get off from this keep developing stage.
but 
$$$$ what is right price. We already know cap is $29,999.999(gas station price)
what is right DPI, can we beat Epson?
what is the investment.
How fast is fast enough for normal guys.
what is the replacement part cost.
I want to sell hamberger than Steak. We all know McDonald is much bigger than Ruth Chris.
That is why I named myself Walmart.
I saw few samples from new developments. Cost of printhead is more than My neoflex. But all are not there yet but soon they will hit your eyes.


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## Don-ColDesi

Hi Z,

Yes they do it on purpose, though not really to thwart "re-purposers" like DTG and sublimation, but more to lock down consumables sales for the traditional usages (photographers and the like). They haven't really helped us in regards to the ink chip issue since the 2400 (which was when they began making it much more difficult to break). They do recognize a couple of manufacturers (Mastermind & Impression Technology) but mostly to sell them printers (above retail) and parts under contract. This benefits these manufacturers as they are not forced to the digital "black market" to purchase parts for their machines (especially print heads).

As I have stated before - Epson is not a printer company - they are an ink company that manufactures ink delivery devices.

Hope this helps!


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## allamerican-aeoon

zoom_monster said:


> Don, Does Epson do this by design to make it difficult for the "aftermarket" crowd and do they offer any assistance to the DTG industry?


Can I answer to you?
Yes they are giving us hard time include on parts but their major issue to them is beat competitors such as HP, Cannon, --etc with faster, better image, better price. While they compete we became scacrifyig sheep. In Epson's eyes we are penny slot machine player in Exclusive Trump's house.
Many says consumerable is only their major income. This is yes or no. Hardware also has lots of profits. They make millions per year. Any big size company like them do not make 130% profit they cannot survive. Common big MFG profit is minimum MSRP/4 is net cost I read this before. They give distributor 10-15% profit. Chemical? Do not even mention it. Thousands % profit. Parts? haha
They are them not in our league. We play with our ball and let's have some fun. How about them Eagles!!!! tonight 8:30 easten time. Our dog killer is hero here!! Obama called Eagles yesterday


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## Don-ColDesi

Actually, Peter, my understanding that Epson is heavily subsidized by the Japanese government.



> Our dog killer is hero here!!


Wow, I don't think I would have said that one! 

Happy New Year Peter!


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## allamerican-aeoon

Don-SWF East said:


> Actually, Peter, my understanding that Epson is heavily subsidized by the Japanese government.
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, I don't think I would have said that one!
> 
> Happy New Year Peter!


Happiest new year to you!! Healthiest, Richest,

OK, Japan, Korea, Singapole, Taiwan -- etc. Country who is depends on export heavily and have no resources Gov' does big time subsidize to all export companies. Name brand companies from these countries is very common to receive this benefit. Happening all day at out side of USA. Even China who has many resources. Look at them. Mr.Omaba listen!!!
Subsidize come from many angles. TAX, Cash, Lending, special treatment, money back on total export amount. 
What I am trying to say is Epson is bottom of totem pole. We know Epson because we are printers. Toyota, Seiko, Sony, Samsung, Hyundai, Kia, LG ------- manies. (many x haha) and All American haha. They all receive buccu Dinero!!! No special!!


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## YoDan

Left Bay

















Right Bay










Print Head Carriage 










Capping/Maintenance Station


I think sooner than you think 

Dan
*"HAPPY PRINTING"*


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## George B

Don-ColDesi said:


> My expectations are that the 4900 platform is at least 6-12 months to develop like Peter stated. There are other issues to address besides the 10 channels. The ink chip issue is rumored to be more of a bear than it is with the 1900. Going to a hexachrome would be interesting, but not practical unless a number of vendors went to it as the manufacture of the extra ink colors would require some sort of guarantee to the manufacturer. I'd be surprised if there is a 4900 based machine ready in 2011 at all.


Don, here comes the surprise.
For all of you interested in the next generation of dtg printers based on 4900, i would like to invite you to visit Polyprint's booth at Fespa Fabric show next week (24-26 May, Hamburg, Germany) to see the new Texjet Pro direct to garment printer.


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## YoDan

George B said:


> Don, here comes the surprise.
> For all of you interested in the next generation of dtg printers based on 4900, i would like to invite you to visit Polyprint's booth at Fespa Fabric show next week (24-26 May, Hamburg, Germany) to see the new Texjet Pro direct to garment printer.


Well you won the race!
"Good luck"
Dan
*"HAPPY PRINTING"*


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## allamerican-aeoon

Congrat!!
Yes you are the 1st who come to starting line. Mine is still in oven with tons of surprises. Seeing your picture there are not much into it. AA is working on current NeoFamily (4880) can convert to 4900 with minimal $ so they do not need to wait until next upgrade available. AA hold NeoFamily hand to the end. And 4900 itself too. Still in testing and testing and testing. Our R&D investment is $xxx,xxx.00. Break ink chip code in house was the one of our achivements.
Marathon is just start. Good luck.


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## Justin Walker

allamerican said:


> AA is working on current NeoFamily (4880) can convert to 4900 with minimal $ so they do not need to wait until next upgrade available.


I am personally very, very excited about the possibility of a 4900 upgrade! That is one factor that definitely went in to my ultimate decision to purchase the Neoflex printers; since the printer unit itself is modular, it opens up the door to allow us to upgrade to a 4900-based system (when they are available), rather than having to buy an entirely new platform! On the one hand I want to be at the forefront of the technology, always looking at the next major innovation.... On the other hand, I definitely don't want to have to buy a whole new set of printers, every time something better comes along. With this setup, we will jump at the opportunity to add additional head units (of the 4900 variety), and still use all of our 4880 printer units for dual-CMYK production...... When we are ready to print black shirts, we can pop the 4900 printer units in place, and print dark shirts at blazing speeds!

I can't wait. Bring 'em on!


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## allamerican-aeoon

Justin Walker said:


> I am personally very, very excited about the possibility of a 4900 upgrade! That is one factor that definitely went in to my ultimate decision to purchase the Neoflex printers; since the printer unit itself is modular, it opens up the door to allow us to upgrade to a 4900-based system (when they are available), rather than having to buy an entirely new platform! On the one hand I want to be at the forefront of the technology, always looking at the next major innovation.... On the other hand, I definitely don't want to have to buy a whole new set of printers, every time something better comes along. With this setup, we will jump at the opportunity to add additional head units (of the 4900 variety), and still use all of our 4880 printer units for dual-CMYK production...... When we are ready to print black shirts, we can pop the 4900 printer units in place, and print dark shirts at blazing speeds!
> 
> I can't wait. Bring 'em on!


Thank you Justin, AA will do best to meet D Day.
1. AA invest $x20,000 for R&D to converting system only. We did very quietly. It was for only NeoFamily. I hope NeoFamily sees sign of how AA is loyal to you.
2. Chip code break was tuff one but it is here. Guess how many DTG seller could do this in house.
3rd: Many surprises. Home made mfg cannot be even near to this "M" project. Truly and you will agree.


Epson 1900 is completly over. There are no more decent supplies. I had 400 in order but does not look good. But still 200 in hand. This project is stopped. Next version will be most likely Epson 3000. How many 1900 modifiers are working on next generation is the question. I am not sure but according to grape vine DTG is losing interest in Epson line. More toward to Mutho format. Now only few will be left in game and hope they are into R&D big time. See you soon from Hamburg. I will be your eyes for you there.


----------



## Justin Walker

allamerican said:


> Epson 1900 is completly over. There are no more decent supplies. I had 400 in order but does not look good. But still 200 in hand. This project is stopped. Next version will be most likely Epson 3000.


What are you gonna do with all those 1900's?? Also, what is the benefit of the 3000; isn't it the same print width as the 4880?


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## DAGuide

Justin Walker said:


> Also, what is the benefit of the 3000; isn't it the same print width as the 4880?


Actually, the new Epson printer replacing the 1900 printer is the Epson 3000 printer. It is really confusing since there was an older one (about 10 years ago) that was also called the 3000 printer. The new one is 13" wide and it has 8 ink channels. (The old Epson 3000 was 17" wide, but only had 4 ink channels). I believe Epson also did the same thing as they did on the 4900 printer where you can have both the Photo and Matte blacks in the printer at the same time, but you can only print from one of them at a time.

Here is the info on Epson's website for this printer - Epson Stylus Photo R3000 Ink Jet Printer - Product Information - Epson America, Inc.. (Not sure if this link will work because of the cookies).

Mark


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## 102557

DAGuide said:


> Actually, the new Epson printer replacing the 1900 printer is the Epson 3000 printer. It is really confusing since there was an older one (about 10 years ago) that was also called the 3000 printer. The new one is 13" wide and it has 8 ink channels. (The old Epson 3000 was 17" wide, but only had 4 ink channels). I believe Epson also did the same thing as they did on the 4900 printer where you can have both the Photo and Matte blacks in the printer at the same time, but you can only print from one of them at a time.
> 
> Here is the info on Epson's website for this printer - Epson Stylus Photo R3000 Ink Jet Printer - Product Information - Epson America, Inc.. (Not sure if this link will work because of the cookies).
> 
> Mark


I was under the impression that the epson 2000 Epson Stylus Photo R2000 Ink Jet Printer - Product Information - Epson America, Inc.

was the replacement for the 1900?


----------



## DAGuide

Sorry, you are correct. The 3000 is the replacement if the 2400/2880 printers. The reason why is that it uses larger ink carts compared to other 13" wide printers. This is why some of the dtg manufacturers are intrigued. Less resetting of ink chips that could save time and ink being wasted.

Mark


----------



## Resolute DTG

George B said:


> Don, here comes the surprise.
> For all of you interested in the next generation of dtg printers based on 4900, i would like to invite you to visit Polyprint's booth at Fespa Fabric show next week (24-26 May, Hamburg, Germany) to see the new Texjet Pro direct to garment printer.


Hi George,

Looks great, just so I am clear. You will have this printer at the show and it will be printing ?


----------



## George B

Hi Colin. Yes, we will have the printer at Fespa and it will be printing.


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## allamerican-aeoon

I have been selling machines for longest time. Not many are more exprienced than AA in TSF 26yrs. With my exprience 100% of the new machines are having BUGS at begining and either it will killed or brand name gets UGLY or often they are giving up as you saw many already in TSF. Look into company record in past and current is real things to do before you open your wallet. Past/current will tell the future so sure. It can not be far apart. New is good when Record was clean and dandy. This is why AA holding it to the right moment and more than any never want to disappoint NeoFamily pride. Yes, AA wants to introduce NeoFlex2 in hurry but hurry is scarey.
Running machine at show does not equal to it will do same in your shop.
Home of Champion DTG battle Royale contest.


----------



## Resolute DTG

allamerican said:


> I have been selling machines for longest time. Not many are more exprienced than AA in TSF 26yrs. With my exprience 100% of the new machines are having BUGS at begining and either it will killed or brand name gets UGLY or often they are giving up as you saw many already in TSF. Look into company record in past and current is real things to do before you open your wallet. Past/current will tell the future so sure. It can not be far apart. New is good when Record was clean and dandy. This is why AA holding it to the right moment and more than any never want to disappoint NeoFamily pride. Yes, AA want to introduce NeoFlex2 in hurry but hurry is scarey.
> Running machine at show does not equal to it will do same in your shop.
> Champion of DTG battle Royale contest.


Perhaps the smart thing to do would be see it in action before insinuating it will fail. The TexJet is a good machine and I know Polyprint is a good experienced company.

Just because Polyprint are the first to crack the 49 does not mean its no good, infact it's the exact opposite. Printing at a show with a 1st protatype is far worse than In a work environment, one bad print and it's all over !!!. I say well done George, hope it goes well.


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## allamerican-aeoon

Inkster UK said:


> Perhaps the smart thing to do would be see it in action before insinuating it will fail. The TexJet is a good machine and I know Polyprint is a good experienced company.
> 
> Just because Polyprint are the first to crack the 49 does not mean its no good, infact it's the exact opposite. Printing at a show with a 1st protatype is far worse than In a work environment, one bad print and it's all over !!!. I say well done George, hope it goes well.


I thought my Engish is bad but yours are too. I never said it will fail. I said all 100% of new machine will have bugs and it could be fixed or gone ---.

Show print: Operators are who supose to be the best for their printer and have all the parts. They know in and out on their own printer. How can it be far worse environment than work shop? I think that should be best condition. I also said "congrat" to him.


----------



## allamerican-aeoon

My reports from FESPA

http://www.t-shirtforums.com/direct-garment-dtg-inkjet-printing/t151953-2.html


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## allamerican-aeoon

Dan salgado thread starter, I was expecting you in FESPA as you said you will come but you did not show off. Are you OK? Anyway your congrat should be take back and hold from Polyprint Texjet until Sep 30th, as same as I did take congrat back. That maybe could be belong me?  I hope you are well.


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## stix

any updated on the progress of the newer machines?


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## Don-ColDesi

There is another challenge to the 4900 that I failed to mention - the inks required for the 10 channel head are less viscous than these for the current machines. The development curve for these inks may be longer than expected as the demand for them will be small in the initial stages - and it will require vendors who have sold the 4880 machines (and other Epson-based solutions) and are also selling 4900 machines to maintain two inventories of ink. 

It is also my understanding that the 4900 does not allow all 10 channels to be used at once - only 9 can be used at once. As we chose not to pursue the 4900 engine I have not gotten a chance to really dig into the nuances of the machine.


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## stix

Don, 

That is interesting. I wonder if Poly is using Dupont or another ink..


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## Don-ColDesi

Hi Stix,

Historically they have used DuPont - hard to say what they are using at this point as they did not have a printer running in FESPA as I understand from folks who were there. 

The information I have on the ink comes from testing of existing ink and the actual ink supplied with the Epson 4900 printer from Epson - roughly 2 centipoise lower - which is significant.


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## stix

Well maybe cavedave or Fred can chime in because they make the rips and would have a better idea of which ink can be used.


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## cavedave

The 4900 actually has 11 cartridges and you can run 10, the configuration is
CMYK Lc Lm Lk LLk O G + Matte Black
When you print you print with either photo or matte black, but you do have access to 10 colors.

The machine at Fespa was using Epson ink, PolyPrint claim to have chips but not had time to test them for the show. So they hadnt tested Dupont ink at that point in the 4900.

Best regards

-David


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## cavedave

As far as if new ink is required, I dont know.

Don is correct in that the new heads use a different formula from Epson for there ink, but I have no idea what this will mean for Dupont ink.
I have heard rumors, but thats all and I am not speculating as I dont know.

I certainly think it will need some bench testing to get confidence before a manufacture starts shipping anything, but that should be true of any new machine.

Best regards

-David


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## erich

Epson is moving further and further towards the photgraphic print market, finer detail prints through firmware controlled smaller ink drop sizes.

this is something that does not suit the textile market at all and will make converting Epsons more and more difficult

Jerry
DTG Digital


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## allamerican-aeoon

Any update George? Could we see your 4900 will rocking on SGIA as you mentioned/promised in FESPA?
Ink? Hard and software? User friendly chips? No bugs?
Race is not fun at all but glory will be.


----------



## 102557

how will the white ink printing fare with the 4900? Is there enough channels to get a good white base, from what i understand it uses a lower viscosity ink... 

sounds like a monster task for the ink chemist to get everything needed in the ink at this viscosity and get good coverage? what does this mean for white ink clogging in these? worse /better?


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## allamerican-aeoon

german13 said:


> how will the white ink printing fare with the 4900? Is there enough channels to get a good white base, from what i understand it uses a lower viscosity ink...
> 
> sounds like a monster task for the ink chemist to get everything needed in the ink at this viscosity and get good coverage? what does this mean for white ink clogging in these? worse /better?


Haha Jeff,
I need tens of you in AA. I wish you are in Philly so you can play any toys you want to play with on my expenses.
Chemical is chemist's hand. Most chemist who I talked with said they will have before SGIA. As same as many dtg converters says they have it. dual heads, 4900 is ready, M is ready --- endless.
Ask Grant, Phil, Scott, Steve on ink.
One thing so sure by history = If there are $, it will happen. When? we don't know. As same as all others. President of USA does not know many thing too.


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## YoDan

german13 said:


> how will the white ink printing fare with the 4900? Is there enough channels to get a good white base, from what i understand it uses a lower viscosity ink...
> 
> sounds like a monster task for the ink chemist to get everything needed in the ink at this viscosity and get good coverage? what does this mean for white ink clogging in these? worse /better?


More ink channels using the lower viscosity white ink will help 
Dan
*"HAPPY PRINTING"*


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## 102557

allamerican said:


> Haha Jeff,
> I need tens of you in AA. I wish you are in Philly so you can play any toys you want to play with on my expenses.
> Chemical is chemist's hand. Most chemist who I talked with said they will have before SGIA. As same as many dtg converters says they have it. dual heads, 4900 is ready, M is ready --- endless.
> Ask Grant, Phil, Scott, Steve on ink.
> One thing so sure by history = If there are $, it will happen. When? we don't know. As same as all others. President of USA does not know many thing too.


You have it all peter.. passion/dedication/customer service... and you tell it how it is= success


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## cavedave

The 4900 has the ability on paper to be very fast, becuase you have access to 10 channels you can configure CMYK+ 6xWhite which as its has more or less the same dot size as the existing 4880 means it would be no problem to print an underbase at 1440x720.

So the Underbase would be x2 fater,factor in the 360 dpi head which is 1.8x faster than the 180dpi head and you are close to printing the underbase 4 time faster than an existing 4880 based machine.

The color pass would also go down 1.8 times faster at the same resolution, or you could print the color at 1440x720 (which gives a much better saturation and is really whats needed at this volume for a good color) at the same speed.

So speed on paper it should be good, but while I have no personnal experience of the Dupont (or any other 3rd party ink) in these machines I woul expect more trouble based on previous head changes from Epson. The only people who can really answer this question with any certainty are Epson or Dupont.
But the White was defintly revamped for the heads used in the 4800 / 1800 machines from the 2100/2200 and I would certainly expect for best performance it to require the same (but it is my speculation only based on previous changes).


Best regards

-David


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## allamerican-aeoon

Lots of people talk and they are very good at talking. 4900 was done by last FESPA show. We all were congratulating on Printex's success. Actually I was very disappointed myself for late and behind. 
Now consider all circumstance around 4900 ETA will be delayed than we all wish for. 
Without ink there will not have color profile and RIP. We cannot keep use Epson ink and keep waste printhead. Keep printing for months will show us what kind of bugs are there. Debug process presents level of respect customer. Otherwise 4900 will create make unhappy TSF members . So you come up with date and see that is match with my ETA.


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## YoDan

DTG ink made at 3.0 cP using the same exsisting ink profiles should work just fine but like Peter says, testing, and more testing to get a proper white ink layer using the correct amount of channels is the biggest task, and I am sure that he is or has done this already .
Dan
*"HAPPY PRINTING"*


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## Don-ColDesi

From the numbers I see so far it sounds like the 4900 scans at 1.8 times the speed of the 4880, with twice as many nozzles - which on paper equates to it being 3.6 times faster. The ink is 30% less viscous - which means you will need 30% more channels - or roughly 5.2 which translates to 6 channels of white to net the same results. It would stand to reason that the 4900 should lay down the ink roughly 3.6 times as fast as the 4880. This assumes that it is possible to get the same droplet sizes out of the 4900 as the 4880. This is a question for the programmers to answer. 

As with any new Epson engine there will be new challenges presented by the firmware of the printer that have to be overcome. I'm sure Peter can attest to this as he is working on the engine. Ink chips are becoming harder to crack and every new printer seems to have new sensors to defeat as well.

One last thing to consider. Since the ink is 30% less viscous it will take roughly 1/3 more ink to accomplish the same results (with viscosity drop you will get roughly an equal drop in the pigment and binders in the ink = less coverage per ml than you get with the current inks). Based on pricing of other inks from the manufacturer - the viscosity of the inks does not seem to make much difference in the per liter price. Evidence the 3500 series which are more viscous than the 5000 series now in use. They are priced the same. This could translate into an increased cost of production of 30% if retail prices of the new 4900-friendly inks are the same as the current inks.


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## YoDan

My theory is because this printer has twice as many nozzles ( 360 nozzles x10 ) it should work just fine at the lower viscosity, of course we will have to wait on Peter to actualy find out since he seems to be the closest on completeing this mod, maybe the SGIA show in New Orleans that's coming up will show us something very interesting 
*"Good Luck Peter and your Tiger crew"*
Dan
*"HAPPY PRINTING"
*


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## 102557

Is the 4900 replacing the 48xx line up? I understand theres a resolution for the inkchip issue but requires a plug in board? My concern would be with white ink printing/clogging the current epson white ink printers are not the best at this currently with white ink pushing 5-6cps, this i think is the biggest problem with existing epsons (higher viscosity white than the head rating) and as the white ink settles/evaporates the viscosity goes up... so if they can reduce the ink viscosity for white how come they had not done this with the current white ink to increase performance thru the existing machines? it seems to be a tall order? (lower viscous white ink with good coverage).. It seems there comes a point where investing in r&d for a ground up would be a better choice using industrial heads and existing inks..

this will prolly be epson wide as new printers come out?... so one would think this ink reformulation is mandatory for using the epson lineup? wouldnt the best solution be to team up with mutoh etc, like dtg m2 or is this a profit killer in that regard? I can image the cost for manufactures just in yearly tradeshow cost/expense..

Another question is why has everyone over looked the ricoh gx7000? higher viscosity inks large 60 ml carts/ a large printhead/ @ 1.27 wide, each head has 2 lines of nozzles for each color with 192 nozzles in each line (384 nozzles per color) its only cmyk but why not a inline ricoh 782 version?


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## cavedave

I have both machines sitting by my desk and I can say that the 1.8x faster at the same resolution was the time Epson told me it was faster by (and this takes into account, Microweaving which is built into these machines, scan speed, number of nozzles etc)

So I did a quick timing test at 720x720
4880 = 1:14
4900 = 0:47
This is actually a bit slower than 1.8, but it was a narrow test 7x10" so I would say the 1.8 is close enough and probably right for an average pint (Epson dont often lead us astray on these details).

You can also run a 4880 driver (configured for CMYK) to the 4900 and so I did the same CMYK chart to both and measured the density (Epson had told us they would be the same more or less) CMYK RGB and Composite black all were pretty much identical on both prints (largest delta-E was 1.8), the viscocity doesnt directly equate to density on the output a lot of what goes in an ink is carrier (I cant remember exactly how much, but its more than 50%) so changing the carrier can change the vicosity without changing the final density.
Of course this was all using Epson ink and doesnt mean that Dupont ink will work correctly or that a new formula might not need a greater volume becaus of the vicosity change. 
But it certainly doesnt mean that it will either.

I still say my numbers in theory are about right, although I havent actually timed the 720x1440 which replaces the 1440x720. But I think it should be capable of 3-4 times faster underbase and 1.8 times fater color.

Best regards

_David


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## YoDan

Is the 4900 replacing the 48xx line up? 
*Yes.*
I understand theres a resolution for the inkchip issue but requires a plug in board? 
*Peter has already stated that he has broken the chip, and there will be other option from across the pond later in the game *
My concern would be with white ink printing/clogging the current epson white ink printers are not the best at this currently with white ink pushing 5-6cps..
* We are currently under 5.0*
Dan
*"HAPPY PRINTING"*


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## allamerican-aeoon

> wouldnt the best solution be to team up with mutoh etc, like dtg m2 or is this a profit killer in that regard?


Business is big gamble. This is why I am not getting excitement in Las Vegas. Steve DTG select his card go with working with 3rd party.
AA maintain same position as a modifier card. 
I am sure there are many more are on dtg poker table. Loser will work out, winner will stay in and keep playing.
Advantage, disadvantage, ups and downs but who will be a last man stand is the question. We will never know until last card is open.
Cheers! beers are on always! Wish me luck, I need it.


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## 102557

allamerican said:


> Business is big gamble. This is why I am not getting excitement in Las Vegas. Steve DTG select his card go with working with 3rd party.
> AA maintain same position as a modifier card.
> I am sure there are many more are on dtg poker table. Loser will work out, winner will stay in and keep playing.
> Advantage, disadvantage, ups and downs but who will be a last man stand is the question. We will never know until last card is open.
> Cheers! beers are on always! Wish me luck, I need it.


There is no such thing as luck. There is only adequate or inadequate preparation to cope with a statistical universe. "Robert Heinlein" but i wish you luck anyway


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## DAGuide

It was my understanding that the reason why there are not a lot of other white ink manufacturers is that it is very difficult to get the TiO2 particles (used to make the ink white) down to a small size. I was told that Dupont does it through a complex method and some pretty expensive equipment. The larger the particle, the more likely it will settle to the bottom of the ink and cause more clogging. So I think you need to do more than just "thinning out" the ink (not sure if that is the proper term). Probably have to look at adjusting the particle size.

Maybe Don or Peter can share more details on the chemistry side that Dupont has shared with them.

Mark


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## Don-ColDesi

DAGuide said:


> Maybe Don or Peter can share more details on the chemistry side that Dupont has shared with them.


I could tell you, but then I would have to kill you.


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## zoom_monster

You can contact me at ian[USER=98886]@imprime[/USER]o.net


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## allamerican-aeoon

Don from Coldeci do not need DuPont new ink anymore. Steve's DTG card is current ink use on their future printer. They dropped all Epson modifying (grape vine). Do not need extra DuPont's help. This is big advantage over AA. Printhead price too. Speed, quality and final price are still questionable.
Yes, DuPont is 30mins away from us. Justin C is in charge to communicate with them almost daily.
There are so many theories out there but very few are right one (confidential). One comfort is many guys are working on this with same song "SGIA".


----------



## cavedave

I meet the head chemist at Dupont for this development once and we had lunch (quite a few years ago now) and he started to explain the white ink issues to me (although I will be honest he lost me pretty early on).

I do remember one thing he said and that was the actual particule size of the white isnt a problem in the head, by comparison the head is a massive hole.
The problem was trying to keep the particles suspended (eg the carrier) and this is whyI think the viscocity in the new head wil be an issue as it seems basic chemestry that its easier to suspend heavy particles in a thicker liquid so as the Viscocsty goes down keeping the white form settling will be harder.

I cant be bothered at this time of day to check my spelling, so I will just soun like Peter (no offence Peter).

Best regards

-David


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## DAGuide

Dave,

That was kinda what I was told. It was explained to me if you thin out the carrier fluid in the white ink... it will increase the chance that the particles will settle faster. That is the challenge. You need to find the right balance of the ink that will hold the particles in suspension, but not be too thick to cause clogging. That is why I think we are going to see more printers going to print heads that can handle the thicker inks. I was also told that it is much easier to increase the viscosity of the ink than to decrease it.

It will be interesting to see what the next several months will hold for the dtg side of our industry.

Mark


----------



## Don-ColDesi

The current generation ink was over a year in development from when we first sampled it. The pretreatment (latest generation that was not well received) was over a year in the making after we heard about or sampled it. Why would we expect a new ink set that was only recently requested to come any faster. We jokingly refer to the development of products from DuPont as being "glacial" and I don't mean cold!


----------



## Don-ColDesi

cavedave said:


> I do remember one thing he said and that was the actual particule size of the white isnt a problem in the head, by comparison the head is a massive hole.
> The problem was trying to keep the particles suspended


Thanks David, it is this fact that lead us to develop the WIMS system to keep the particles suspended - thus reducing the issues that arise from this settling.


----------



## allamerican-aeoon

Don-ColDesi said:


> Thanks David, it is this fact that lead us to develop the WIMS system to keep the particles suspended - thus reducing the issues that arise from this settling.


Until wims system find out the way to effect inside of printhead and dampers where 95% plus of DTG trouble occurs not many who is into basics won't be convinced value Don keep repeating. In my opinion actually it is harmful. If Don uses as marketing tool I will understand.
I never heard ink line having a troubles where wims system's major ink flow is. Wims for where no trouble area? It did create air bubbles in ink line in past. I do not know these days.


----------



## allamerican-aeoon

cavedave said:


> I cant be bothered at this time of day to check my spelling, so I will just soun(d) like Peter (no offence Peter).


Hahaha, it is ok, Thank you. Always grad to see my name is apearing as worse Engrish writing person of the year. I know who I am. I am smaler than you think and way biger than you think. 
Cheers!!


----------



## Don-ColDesi

allamerican said:


> I never heard ink line having a troubles where wims system's major ink flow is.


If you were to look at the ink lines on a printer where the ink has been allowed to set overnight without circulation you will see that the ink has indeed settled. This is more obvious in printers that have more exposed ink lines than in units that choose to use the smaller internal Epson OEM lines. The fact that the lines are not visible from outside the printer does not mean that the ink does not settle in the lines.

Good to see you back here Peter. I love your passion for the industry.


----------



## allamerican-aeoon

> It will be interesting to see what the next several months will hold for the dtg side of our industry.


Same here, very exciting moments, seconds. Tick tock tick tock --.
     happens one point at a time. Waiting for


----------



## allamerican-aeoon

Don-ColDesi said:


> The current generation ink was over a year in development from when we first sampled it. The pretreatment (latest generation that was not well received) was over a year in the making after we heard about or sampled it. Why would we expect a new ink set that was only recently requested to come any faster. We jokingly refer to the development of products from DuPont as being "glacial" and I don't mean cold!


Don,
Sounds very negative but winner always see green in desert and winner never give up and winner's heart is big than a talker's. Winner act not talk. I have a faith on DuPont and others because they put their heart and soul in it. You are in good position because when and if Steve fails it will not be a big damage to you. You just jump on next train. I am not in same shoes as you are in. We develop and share with dreamjet to the limit. I lead but you follow. I have no answer which one is better. Trust you'll wish my success! Thx.


----------



## Don-ColDesi

Negative and realistic can sometimes sound the same. My outlook on the future of the industry is a mix of optimism mixed with a healthy does of reality. I think that many (if not all) developers would have made the same assumption about ink that it appears was made by the few who have proceeded forward with hardware development. The situation at hand shows how important all aspects of the process are important. The hardware developers count on folks to break the Epson chip technology, ink manufacturers to make a reliable ink and software developers to provide code that optimizes the capabilities of the machine. Without any one of these cogs - the wheel doesn't turn. My statement was based on the fact that the ink has consistently been the slowest to develop. This would make sense as the ink is really the only component of the solution that is actually being "invented" as we go. Everything else is simply a reworking of existing components or tweaking of code/drivers. 

I wish you well in your quest, but don't sell the involvement of the entire DTG family in the progress of the DTG product line. All of the major players contribute something (ColDesi has been very heavily vested in the software and platen development aspect for both the Viper and the upcoming M-Series). 

Beers on you as always!


----------



## cavedave

The software is anything but a simple reworking of code drivers, we have had to invent whole new work flows for printing with an underbase. Originally we started with concepts from underbasing in screen printing but this was half science and half art and its moved a long way since then.

The ink has certainly been probably one of the most challanging areas, but this has been an evoltionary trail of which there are many contributers (and will be many more), from the manufactures to the end users.
No one should ever discount the inovations made by all parties.

Its unfortunate that those who are often the most influentual in the evolution end up by the way side, Scott is long gone and yet he more than anyone created this market and its probable that if he hadnt thi smarket still wouldnt exist. He kicked and screamed at us and Dupont to create a software that could print and Underbase and for Dupont to create a white ink that would work in an Epson head. 

Peter you talk of winners and losers, at the moment this market is plenty big enough for lots of winners (not just one) and at the end of the day if one of the big boys decides to go into this market, chances are most of us will end up like Scott.

For those with a long memory, there once was a company called Encad who dominated the LFP market, then came along HP.....these guys are in the razor blade business and a lot of ink is getting used.

So make hay while the sun shines, becuase we all end up in the dirt eventually 

Best regards

-David


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## Don-ColDesi

I thought I might rattle a cage with that statement. Suffice to say the code can be more complex to develop than the hardware, but new ink is probably harder.


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## YoDan

> Suffice to say the code can be more complex to develop than the hardware, but new ink is probably harder.


For some it's the other way around 
Dan
*"HAPPY PRINTING"*


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## cavedave

Don-ColDesi said:


> I thought I might rattle a cage with that statement. Suffice to say the code can be more complex to develop than the hardware, but new ink is probably harder.


I dont know, I have never tried to make an ink, but seeing how many RIP's there are and how many White inks, you are probably right.

I did work on a hardware RIP (many moons ago), so hardware can be just as hard as software (in fact they blur these days, as there is so much software controlling the hardware).

Best regards

-David


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## YoDan

David, sorry I do not really know you (Hello ), what is the name of your company?
Dan
*"HAPPY PRINTING"*


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## cavedave

Hello Dan,

I work at Cadlink and we make RIPs for a number of OEM's for the DTG market.

The company is Canadian (or head office is), but I am in London (UK).

Best regards

-David


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## Rodney

*Thread note:* some posts have been moved out of this thread. For one on one conversations (offers, requests), please send them directly to the other person via PM, email, phone instead of as a public post to help keep threads on topic ​


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## allamerican-aeoon

Epson knows all along DTG needs A2 size printer. Perfect size and fit options. This is why they add more codes and sensors than any other models wishing all modifiers will give up. Some gave up and some are still struggling. Chip is the first, Ink is second cuz without chip ink test is real pain third is firmware. Last is RIP cuz no color = no RIP.


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## allamerican-aeoon

I just received the call about current NeoFlex buyer is worry about his purchase. I do understand his point very well. Also I knew this question will rise and coming but AA had no fear on this area. 4900 is in the air not just me all are and after put 4900 on the market maturing time is must = nobody knows how long it will take to reach where 4880 is. You do not want to be a paying tester. We have to eat today even we know someone's party is near days. He may die, he may cancel, he may all ---. I want to tell all. Do not hold your plan. All modifiers will back you up with their know how. I am so sure all modifiers have plans to serve you and protect your investment. I know I am and have.


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## DAGuide

allamerican said:


> Epson knows all along DTG needs A2 size printer. Perfect size and fit options. This is why they add more codes and sensors than any other models wishing all modifiers will give up.


As much as we all would like to think the DTG market is a big thing, it is truly not that big to Epson. The extra sensors on the 4XX0 printers is due to have the paper feed tray. As Dave mentioned, the larger printers don't have this. The negative to the larger printers is that the ink lines are much longer and opens the door to the ink separating.

As for the ink chips, I don't really blame Epson for trying to protect the one thing that they make the most revenues from - ink. The DTG industry was not very nice to Epson in the early stages as we were constantly damaging print heads and other parts. They are probably not really happy that their adjustment software program is freely distributed as well.

Epson never really approved the use of their printers to be modified by most of the dtg manufacturers in the beginning and depending on who you talk to, they still might not for at least the majority of ones being produced. Kinda like the same thing with putting dye sub ink into an Epson printer. This is why there are more dtg manufacturers considering moving away from the Epson printers. Yes, it does take a substantial more capital investment to do this... but there are less of the issues to worry about. I imagine this is part of the thought process that DTG Digital went through when they decided to go the route of M2 printer. Brother and Kornit went their own direction several years ago.

Just my thoughts,

Mark


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## JohnL

All of this has been enlightening. Peoples thoughts and theories will be put to the test in the near future. I'm am excited to see what unfolds.


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## YoDan

> I don't really blame Epson for trying to protect the one thing that they make the most revenues from - ink


Well these printers are shipped with only a 80ml startup set of inks, people used to sell off the original carts and get some money back so Epson has seen this for sure and again they are trying to curve this sell off. The actual 200ml cartridges retail for $99.00 ea X 11 so you can do the math, this seem a little expensive does it not 
Dan
*"HAPPY PRINTING"*


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## allamerican-aeoon

Hardware: piece of cake
Firmware: little harder but same
Chips, decorder: small money talks.
RIP: these guys can do it very fast when hardware and ink are in their hand.
Ink: Biggest headache. small Money cannot talk well here. Except to Dan Salgado. I have no idea where he getting from. I have few CYMK works ok minus level compare to quality we used to on Dupont. but never on white. While Dan claims he has one. Send some to me to test please. CYMK&W. Use my UPS acct.
Over all getting closer each day to me but it is long voyage. Test endless before mass production. Another huddle is convertible 4880 4900 back and forth which AA want to do most for NeoFamily. I wish I can. Wish me luck! Breakthrough happens.


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## Sector 9

The cartridges for this printer are $100 a piece and it takes multiple color cartridges. How long do the cartridges seem to last?


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## YoDan

> Hardware: piece of cake
> Firmware: little harder but same
> Chips, decorder: small money talks.
> RIP: these guys can do it very fast when hardware and ink are in their hand.
> Ink: Biggest headache. small Money cannot talk well here. Except to Dan Salgado. I have no idea where he getting from. I have few CYMK works ok minus level compare to quality we used to on Dupont. but never on white. While Dan claims he has one. Send some to me to test please. CYMK&W. Use my UPS acct.


Sorry Peter, my 4900 printer is on the way to me because I could not talk you into sharing yours with me 


> Over all getting closer each day to me but it is long voyage. Test endless before mass production. Another huddle is convertible 4880 4900 back and forth which AA want to do most for NeoFamily. I wish I can. Wish me luck! Breakthrough happens.


 I already wished you luck!
Dan
*"HAPPY PRINTING"*


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## allamerican-aeoon

Dan, thorn is protection of weakness. You seems always have some uncomfortable feeling with me. Peace please. 
I do not want to be a bottom feeder. I earn my food never at bottom. I keep my pride. I never done any wrong doing to you in my memory. Peace!


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## DTG Digital

Peter


I'll see you at SGIA come buy and see how i am failing with the M2 and M4. ( yes i did read your cheap shot at me to Don"s post)

Steve


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## YoDan

allamerican said:


> Dan, thorn is protection of weakness. You seems always have some uncomfortable feeling with me. Peace please.
> I do not want to be a bottom feeder. I earn my food never at bottom. I keep my pride. I never done any wrong doing to you in my memory. Peace!


 Peter
You just need to see the one way street that you always seem to be on. I share with everyone BUT the sharing needs to go both ways 
Dan
*"HAPPY PRINTING"*


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## allamerican-aeoon

In May 2011 Poly Print announced they have 4900 down and saying print at FESPA show. This was most exciting news in this forum. After 6 months later where are they now?
I gave George at Poly-Print (TexJet) high five and congratulate to him. Now I am hearing that xxxx mfg is steering toward 3880. I guess it was not easy as everyone thought at beginning. I said "come to the starting line first does not mean he will win the race" and I think I was right.
Every dtg mfgs bought 4900 at least one to look into it and I was one of them with many in hand and 2 free from Epson. It could be dream printer or it could be horror printer. FredP said it is great printer for dtg. CadDave also seems agreed. I hope they were right.


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## YoDan

I believe that the ability to reset the chips has been the main delay issue, there are now "One time use chips" avaliable and these are a little expensive at the moment, especialy for only 200 ml of use, I do not think that it will be too much longer for one of these printers to hit the DTG market 
Dan
*"HAPPY PRINTING"*


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## DAGuide

The other huge issue to consider is the viscosity of the inks designed for the newer Epson printers is lower than the print heads that are currently being used for dtg printing. It is easy to tell that we are already on the higher end of the spectrum when it comes to the white ink going through the print heads (i.e. see all the posts on the white ink clogging) and thinning out the ink is not going to help. I don't think as many companies are worried about the ink coverage due to the extra 2 channels that the 4900 printers have over the 48X0 printers, but the potential of increased clogging becomes a legitimate concern in my opinion. I am being told that the same issue will also be there with the dye sub inks as well on these same printers.

Mark


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## stix

The price of those printheads are no joke either.


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## YoDan

DAGuide said:


> The other huge issue to consider is the viscosity of the inks designed for the newer Epson printers is lower than the print heads that are currently being used for dtg printing. It is easy to tell that we are already on the higher end of the spectrum when it comes to the white ink going through the print heads (i.e. see all the posts on the white ink clogging) and thinning out the ink is not going to help. I don't think as many companies are worried about the ink coverage due to the extra 2 channels that the 4900 printers have over the 48X0 printers, but the potential of increased clogging becomes a legitimate concern in my opinion. I am being told that the same issue will also be there with the dye sub inks as well on these same printers.
> 
> Mark


I cannot speak for the Sublimation ink BUT the 3.0centipoise (cP) ink for this printer should be ok, now as far as clogging I see no differnance for the current DTG ink and as long the maintenance is performed all should be ok.
Dan
*"HAPPY PRINTING"*


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## allamerican-aeoon

AA dealer just informed me Poly Print (Texjet. G20) introduced 3800 series in Viscom show. Not 4900 which they introduced 1/2yr + ago. Doesn't it proves it is not easy as all thought? Many corgrats and excitment, remember? AA solved ink chip issue long time ago but what good are they? Nothing until all are ready. One short or ten short are nothing different.
Some dtg mfgs were too rushed and some are just keep talking with cartoon ideas every other months. I do have lots of respect to Poly Print, Anajet and DTG. AA sees them as gentleman competitors wish their best but I see the limitation of talk only never finish and TV repair technology company. Homemade but it works will come to the end soon. We will talk when time comes.
Cheers! Beers are on me always.


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## czes

Hello everybody,

Does one of you get the decoder to work with 4900?
I've two from different supplyers (obviously the same manufacturer) both refuse to function. I can't take the risk and test of different DTG-inks. Besides this, everything else is working properly (printer is mooving over the board.) Chip are on the way and will try those.


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## stix

any new update on the 4900?


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## Smalzstein

So I heard also as I seen sure color solvent printers converted to DTG. Kinda gets me wondering about what interesting things will come next month.


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## Smalzstein

"Our" mean who? What is the speed for your dark print?


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## Smalzstein

Thnaks for this info but you havent answered any of my questions


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## Smalzstein

You're from Polyprint?


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