# Best DTG printer for printing on dark shirts



## Tshirtprint

Just came back from the Schaumburg ISS show looking at DTG printers that prints on dark shirts. Unless I missed one I saw the Kornit, Flexijet, DTG Kiosk and T-Jet.

The Kornit is out of my budget so it it down to the other three. I would like to stay around 15K.

When asking the sales people from Brother and others that do no do dark garments they say the particles in the white ink are larger than the inkjet head which causes plugging and constant maintenance problems. I was also told that shirts printed with the white under base wash out after 2 or 3 washes.

I would also like to have something with a Mac based RIP.

I was looking for some real information from real users as to the best machine and the wear of the shirts.


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## mbteach

Hi,

I was also at the Schaumburg ISS show and have decided to wait. But, if I was purchasing there were 2 important details, location of dealer and customer service. For me the Kiosk training was across the street from the show so very close to me. I still was not sure about customer service.

Another point the flexijet was including a computer and heat press, so all components were there to start the business right away.

Good Luck


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## GRH

The Flexijet, DTG Kiosk and T-Jet are all very similar. They all run Epson print engines and Epson heads. IMHO the Epson based machines are being pushed to the max to print white ink on a dark shirt. 

A major short coming for all these printers is that the shirt must be pretreated. Pretreating shirts is an art-form. If it is not done perfectly then the print will suffer in appearance and or not wash well. There are also problems with pretreatment leaving residue on the shirts that is visible even after several washings.

Until these companies or others build affordable printers from the ground up using heads and affordable inks designed for printing on fabric none of them are acceptable for printing white ink IMHO. These companies need to start designing printers with the Kornit in mind (pretreatment is applied only under the print area) or they need to develop ink that does not need pretreatment.

I have been printing white ink for about 1 1/2 years now and am about to give it up. The process is inconsistent and very expensive as it stands today. Printing with white ink is merely a novelty as it is done at this time. There are a few people making money with white ink but most are not. The Brother rep was wrong you can get great looking and wash-fast prints with these printers but everything including the pretreatment must be perfect.

To answer your question none of these printers are best for printing on dark shirts, they are all about the same. There are differences in speed and service but their white ink performance is about the same and that is not good.

Regards,
GRH


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## vctradingcubao

Tshirtprint said:


> ....When asking the sales people from Brother and others that do no do dark garments they say the particles in the white ink are larger than the inkjet head which causes plugging and constant maintenance problems. ..


This is the first time that I heard of this, but based on a lot of feedbacks from other members here, I tend to believe this. I've also read a post before saying that only the Kornit so far uses the Spectra brand heads, that's why it's the only DTG machine that can be relied on if printing dark shirts is a major part of your business.


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## Printzilla

GRH said:


> with the Kornit in mind (pretreatment is applied only under the print area)


The Kornit sprays pretreatment on the entire footprint of the area to be printed, not just on the printed area.

I agree, 90% of the users need to stick with printing on lights. The problem is almost everyone thinks they are in the other 10%, and the manufacturers help to feed that fire.


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## GRH

Printzilla said:


> The Kornit sprays pretreatment on the entire footprint of the area to be printed, not just on the printed area.


I stand corrected, Thanks. At least the Kornit (I assume) applies the pretreatment in a controlled manor and the ink is applied directly to the pretreatment without curing first. The other printers require a song and dance routine of misting with water, hand spraying with a Home Depot paint sprayer, and curing in a heat press. Any of these steps done wrong and the print is ruined. 

The mechanical problems of printing white ink can be overcome the real evil is in the pretreatment process and the high cost of ink IMHO.

_"I agree, 90% of the users need to stick with printing on lights. The problem is almost everyone thinks they are in the other 10%, and the manufacturers help to feed that fire."_

I agree 100% with this statement!

Regards,
GRH


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## mrkoob

Ditto regarding the "stick with printing on lights". Until someone invents a "pre-treatment less" ink, printing on lights is about the only option. Plus the only way to make money on the darks is to sell them (and I'm not joking) at close to $50. That's about what it comes to after man hours, pretreatment solution, pre-treatment equipment, and mistakes. Now, as far as the original question of which is the best machine for printing on darks... none.. for now IMHO.


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## embloom

Printzilla said:


> The Kornit sprays pretreatment on the entire footprint of the area to be printed, not just on the printed area.
> 
> I agree, 90% of the users need to stick with printing on lights. The problem is almost everyone thinks they are in the other 10%, and the manufacturers help to feed that fire.


Which begs the question; Just what is required to become a part of this exclusive 10%?


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## Tshirtprint

Printzilla said:


> 90% of the users need to stick with printing on lights.


It would be great if 90% of the jobs were on white shirts. 

For my market I need the capability of printing white at the least.

So for the next question, which machine of the 3 listed above does the best job on white shirts? I am leaning toward the Flexijet but the DTG has local support and T-Jet has the most units out there doing this.


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## Don-ColDesi

Wow, bash the distributor day!!!

I have always said that printing on darks was MUCH harder than printing on lights. Virtually any chimpanzee can print good shirts on lights with any of the dtg machines. However, good prints can be produced on darks, and YES it does take more time and skill, but it is not impossible. I'll use an embroidery parallel here, if someone wants a design on a shirt with 10000 stitches and another with 75000 stitches, do you charge him a lot more for the 75000 stitch design or just quote him a flat price for the shirt, regardless of the amount of time and materials that go into the garment? I hope all of you said MORE, it will take 7.5 times as long to sew, consume approximately 7 times as much thread, bobbin and backing and the cost of "redoing" it will also increase greatly should you make a mistake.

If you charge 2- 2.5 times the amount for dark shirts that you do for light shirts you will be in line with the costs of production. We try to be very starightforward on this in our sales process. 

Happy Printing!


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## GRH

Don-SWF East said:


> Wow, bash the distributor day!!!
> 
> I have always said that printing on darks was MUCH harder than printing on lights. Virtually any chimpanzee can print good shirts on lights with any of the dtg machines. However, good prints can be produced on darks, and YES it does take more time and skill, but it is not impossible.
> 
> If you charge 2- 2.5 times the amount for dark shirts that you do for light shirts you will be in line with the costs of production. We try to be very starightforward on this in our sales process.
> 
> Happy Printing!


Hi Don,

With all due respect, how many of these machines would be sold if the sales people used the pitch, _it is not impossible to print white ink with this machine?

_How many machines would be sold if the sales people explained to the customer that they must be able to sell dark shirts for $35 to make a profit printing white ink?

I agree it is not impossible to print with white ink, but it is very difficult to print white ink at a profit. The industry needs to pull back on its white ink claims until they have perfected the process and they are a long way from doing this. The white ink process as it is today is not acceptable.

Face the facts, 90% of your customers are chimpanzees. I have confidence that if my 103 year old grandmother walked in to any distributer ship with a $20,000 bill she would come home with a white ink printer.

PS: Send bananas.

Best Regards,
GRH


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## Don-ColDesi

GRH,


> How many machines would be sold if the sales people explained to the customer that they must be able to sell dark shirts for $35 to make a profit printing white ink?


Good question, if you are selling one off's on white/light shirts for less than about $25 then you are leaving money on the table, so $35 for a black shirt is right in line. Also, taking your chimpanzee analogy (by the way, bloggers, GRH just called 9 out of 10 of you chimpanzees!), probably less machines would be sold and less people would be printing direct to garment and less people would be making money, the distributors would be making less money and thus the manufacturers would be making less money and thus the push to develop faster and better would be slowed and it would be even longer than before even better solutions are developed and then folks would be complaining because the developments aren't coming fast enough - did I make my point? The endusers demand a dark shirt solution, most of us are putting out the best solution available at the moment, I know that we drive it home to our sales department how long it takes to print a dark shirt and our software even shows the ink cost. 

Better inks and pre-treats are in the works, some will be released soon, others are still 1,2,3 - maybe even 5 years out. Will the dtg world swith over to Spectra or Xaar or Trident heads and build their own machines anytime soon - I doubt, see Kornit/pricing/ouch! Besides, anyone fired up about keeping 5-10 gallons of highly flammable material sitting around? Especially near an 8 foot gas fired belt dryer?

Off my soap box, happy printing!


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## Don-ColDesi

> I have confidence that if my 103 year old grandmother walked in to any distributer ship with a $20,000 bill she would come home with a white ink printer.


PS - what is your 103 year old grandmother doing printing conterfeit money? Anyone ever seen a $20,000 bill? Whose face is on it - Scott Fresener?


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## GRH

Don-SWF East said:


> PS - what is your 103 year old grandmother doing printing conterfeit money? Anyone ever seen a $20,000 bill? Whose face is on it - Scott Fresener?


Don,

I will send you one of these if you will send me a new HM1.










PS: Still need bananas


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## PinkFreud

Gee, I guess I must be an exlusive member of the magical 10% who has been making money printing white ink on dark shirts....I sell most at retail and many at short run wholesale....I have been doing this for almost 2 years and the quality and washability is highly acceptable because I have tons of repeat customers. I have a black shirt that has been washed so many times the black of the shirt is fading but the print has only faded slightly. I honestly do not understand why so many people are unwilling or unable to print with the white...can 90% of you people really be chimpanzees?....Maybe chimps would rather ignore this valuable
nich, printing full color on dark shirts one at a time....Maybe chimps are those waiting for a machine to come along that only requires you to press a button and print with white ink...and folks, even the ridiculously priced Kornit is not the answer...yes it makes pretreating easier but I challenge any black shirt printed on a Kornit.to match the washability of the shirts I print all day everyday on my red T-Jet...All I know is that I am not a some sort of genius with some special talent....The current configuration for printing white is what it is...with a little patience and good instincts you can accomplish the task and satisfy the mass of customers who want this service...I am not here to convince chimps that they can do it....however..with proper methods I have trained many "chimps" who work for me how to do it....It is not up to the dealers to decide who is a "chimp" and who is a true entrepreneur willing to learn the process....One thing the dealer knows is that the process works...Is it so easy that a chimpanzee can do it?...no it it is not...and the dealers dont say it is....but then neither is screen printing or any other skill you may want to learn to make money in this world....Until someone pays you to lay in bed watching TV it looks like we will just have to use the available tools and our abilty...and.... just go for it.


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## GRH

Hi Pink,

I have been waiting for you to jump in here. You and a couple of other users on the boards are apparently doing well printing white ink but most users are not. As you have stated before you must have the right market to justify printing white ink but most people buying these machines do not.

I can print great looking shirts that are wash-fast but the process is expensive, slow, and inconsistent. The main problem is the pretreatment process and the residue that the pretreatment leaves on the shirt. The pretreatment process is ridiculous at best. Mist with water, spray pretreatment with a Home Depot paint sprayer, mist with water, wipe pretreatment with a sponge, stand on one foot while singing the national anthem, rub your tummy and pat your head. Too little pretreatment and you waste a shirt, too much pretreatment and you get a great looking print that will wash out. The industry needs to address this process at the speed of light. 

If you don't agree with me try posting a poll and see how many users are happily printing white ink and making good money doing it.

Regards,
GRH


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## Printzilla

Don-SWF East said:


> The endusers demand a dark shirt solution, most of us are putting out the best solution available at the moment, I know that we drive it home to our sales department how long it takes to print a dark shirt and our software even shows the ink cost.


I agree 100% Don. It is the end users driving the white frenzy. I gave my opinion on this phenomenon in the anajet vs hm-1 thread. It is a repeatable cycle that I do not see ending. I also agree that you are offering the best AVAILABLE solution at the moment.

I stand by my 90/10 statement. If you cruise the forums you will see that for every Pink/Zilla there will be 8-9 users that are not successful, satisfied, have switched to only white shirt printing, or have given up and want to use the printer for a "boat anchor".


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## Printzilla

Good post Pink. 

GRH - not a bad idea on the poll.


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## PinkFreud

No harm in having a "white experiance" poll here on this forum but let's be realistic....Over 10,000 T-Jets were reportedly sold over a year ago and many more have sold since they hit the 10,000 mark....The vast majority do not post on these forums especially if things are going well for them...it is human nature that people who have problems and negative experiances are more motivated to post....they are angry and this is....well....a forum to vent on. You will not hear from most of those who are successfully printing the white ink...why?..
because in my opinion most are not willing to share their success with potential competitors....it takes a certain type of person to post here and in my opinion most people see nothing beneficial in sharing pricing, printing methods, marketing ideas, sources etc....In a way I can understand this but I can guarantee you these same people are feverishly lurking reading every post on every forum. So while a poll is nice I think it is important to keep it in perspective...I know for a fact there are others who are successfully printing with the white but would never post here publically. If people want to believe that you have to sell shirts for $35 and that the pretreatment cant be appled consistantly so be it...I know otherwise....incidently I have kept track of how many shirts I have printed on the last 10 liters of white ink....interestingly I seem to get 100 shirts almost to the number on each liter....Lets figure then that at $300 a liter the average cost for printing on a dark per shirt is 3 bucks....I add a couple more bucks for shirt cost and time etc....and I can reasonably assume that the shirt cost me in the area of 5 bucks more or less.....can I make a profit selling these shirts at retail for $20-$25....yep....can I make a profit selling 12-48 shirts at $10-$12....again...yep
.....if you dont have a market for 1-offs and short runs? Consider screenprinting or get a Brother and try to compete with screenprinters on light only..Good Luck


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## Printzilla

I do not entirely agree Pink. ( yes I know it's a shock  ) I am on all of the private machine owners forums except Brother's. I see alot more issues being discussed on those forums than any open forums. These discussions are usually civil and more often than not end in a good resolution. The reason they end in a good resolution is people like you posting their experiences. I agree that there are more lurkers than posters by far, however I do not think that there is a large secret group of successful users that keep it to themselves. Are there some? SURE! Just not a lot in my opinion.

I am curious as to what your guess would be as to the percentage of users like you and I that have been very successful. What is your number? (percentage wise)


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## Printzilla

Oh, and the Tjet number of 10,000 in use is greatly exaggerated. The actual number is closer to 4k worldwide. I would wager there are not 10k dtg's of all brands in use in the entire universe, at the time of this post.


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## GRH

_*"yep....can I make a profit selling 12-48 shirts at $10-$12....again...yep"

*_Pink,
1. $2.00 shirt cost
2. $3.00 ink cost
3. $ .50 pretreat and parchment paper
$5.50 cost of print

The T-Jets are only going to do 7 or 8 shirts and hour printing dark shirts if the graphic is of any size.

4. $80.00 eight shirts @ $10
5.-$44.00 cost of print
6.-$10.00 labor per hr
$26.00 profit per hr

Out of this profit you must pay overheads (Rent,Insurance, Maintenence on the machine, Utillities, Amortization of the cost of the printer, Miss prints)

Pink my friend, I hate to tell you this but you are working too cheap.

Regards,
GRH


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## zoom_monster

Don, 
I really like your embroidery analogy. Selling anything is a matter of examining your costs and selling for enough to make you and the buyer happy. Have I made money from day one, on every job ... No, but because this chimp is smart, I can figure out my costs and charge what I need to in order to make it worth my while. Pink, you are right on about forums. They are great for info and tips, but you do have to read between the lines sometimes and understand the "backstories" Are there a lot of people disallutioed? I'll bet there are, as there are in embroidery, screenprinting etc. I'm glad that there are some "vets" out there that can at least show us what the long game can look like. Thanks guys.


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## PinkFreud

Ok GRH...lets see this through

1. $2.00 shirt cost
2. $3.00 ink cost
3. $ .50 pretreat and parchment paper
$5.50 cost of print

4. $80.00 eight shirts @ $10
5.-$44.00 cost of print
6.-$10.00 labor per hr (labor will be multitasking on a second machine so -$5.00 therefore also less for shirt
$26.00 profit per hr but lets go with $30.00 profit per hour...its easier)

Ok according to these figures the best case scenario @ 8 hours a day 5 days a week is just over $50,000 grand a year NET ....not big money but I have more then 1 machine and the second machine is concentrated on retail (more then half my sales) 

1. $2.00 shirt cost
2. $3.00 ink cost
3. $ .50 pretreat and parchment paper
$5.50 cost of print

4. $160.00 eight shirts @ $20 (low end I can get up to $30.00 each)
5.-$44.00 cost of print
6.-$10.00 labor per hr (labor will be multitasking on a second machine so -$5 

$106.00 profit per hr but lets go with $100.00 profit per hour...its easier)

Add it up my friend we are talking well over $500,000 a year with just 2 machines and 1 employee
Now consider ...if you will ...2 additional machines and just 1 more employee??....Ok Ok lets say all 4 machines were not running continuosly and there wasn't a waiting list (which is not at all out of the question)...we are still talking a lot of dough...Even if you just had 2 machines that were doing strictly wholesale @$10 a shirt .. you are looking at a $100 grand net profit potential with no retail sales! ....and remember..we are not even talking about adding white/light shirts to the equation


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## Gunslinger

I have to agree, Pink ...

Even with all the headaches, learning curve, burnt shirts, test prints, the bad batch of white ink fiasco, and on and on ... I still make more of a profit (pink's numbers lay it right out) than my resteraunt. I have a T-Jet 3 and have been printing for 4 months. I hate the process, most times, but I am one of those 10% and making a tidy profit. My online retail shop isn't even up, yet. I don't know about the new Blazer, yet, but if they can get rid of the silly gravity system, it would certainly eliminate some of the problems we have for the T-Jets. My wife saw something about a DTG printer that uses two heads ... one for white underbase, followed by a second (different head) for the color pass. If that can deliver, I would expect the DTG's will follow suit to accomodate the different densities of the white and colored inks.


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## sunnydayz

Gunslinger said:


> I have to agree, Pink ...
> 
> Even with all the headaches, learning curve, burnt shirts, test prints, the bad batch of white ink fiasco, and on and on ... I still make more of a profit (pink's numbers lay it right out) than my resteraunt. I have a T-Jet 3 and have been printing for 4 months. I hate the process, most times, but I am one of those 10% and making a tidy profit. My online retail shop isn't even up, yet. I don't know about the new Blazer, yet, but if they can get rid of the silly gravity system, it would certainly eliminate some of the problems we have for the T-Jets. My wife saw something about a DTG printer that uses two heads ... one for white underbase, followed by a second (different head) for the color pass. If that can deliver, I would expect the DTG's will follow suit to accomodate the different densities of the white and colored inks.


The machine you are talking about with the two heads is the eclipse by dtg. 
That is a nice machine, it runs about 30k. 

Bobbie


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## PinkFreud

This method of printing using 2 separate printheads ....one for the white and one for the color on the same print......has not yet proven itself in the real-world market....the main problem is keeping the registration accurate on the pass with the second printhead.....I know Belquette gave up on this method for this reason
...I am sure it is possible to do but ultimately the question is what are you really gaining? I guess you would save some time by not having to reload your print job for the white pass but I am unclear of any other benefits.....For the price I would prefer to have 2 standard machines


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## Printzilla

How about the ability to recycle white ink after cleanings, so that you never lose any to the dreaded waste tank? That in and of itself could save you alot of money over the lifespan of the printer.


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## sunnydayz

PinkFreud said:


> This method of printing using 2 separate printheads ....one for the white and one for the color on the same print......has not yet proven itself in the real-world market....the main problem is keeping the registration accurate on the pass with the second printhead.....I know Belquette gave up on this method for this reason
> ...I am sure it is possible to do but ultimately the question is what are you really gaining? I guess you would save some time by not having to reload your print job for the white pass but I am unclear of any other benefits.....For the price I would prefer to have 2 standard machines


I totally agree with you on this one, that for that money you might as well buy two seperate machines. It at least would give you the freedom of doing what you want with each print head on seperate machines.


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## zoom_monster

Having a dedicated head with 8 channels of white (or whatever) sounds good in theory. Syncing both heads, or keeping them so... could be an issue. The Eclipse is saw in January LB, did print fast but not that much more. The white looked good, but if my sample is any indication, more white is not always better for washfastness. The white ink has to bond to something and it will not bond to itself (it must contact pretreatment) Marc, I like your idea, but let's take it farther..... keeping it all closed loop with the white circulating through the system(kind of like the hotwater system in a big hotel) with no air or foaming AND a dual header with ink /Cleaning fluid entering the head (pre-damper)at the same point so that when head maintenance is performed you use cleaner rather than precious ink.....since we're dreaming here.... rolleyes:^/


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## Printzilla

If you are gonna dream...dream *BIG..* why not a separate capping station and head for each color... then you never lose ink to cleanings. you could also just purge the heads individually! 

And while we are at it, how about no pretreat white, affordable white ink, and pigs that fly!


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## Gunslinger

ROFL ...

But seriously, with regard to the white, it really does need to bond to the pre-treatment for washability. One of the shirts I printed several weeks ago that my wife wore today, is cracking ONLY bits of white in the print. I had been printing with an overlay highlight with most prints, but I am forced to stop using highlight white. The white will just begin to crackle off after 4 plus washes.

Bottom line, the ink needs to be improved. I know some of the users stick to just whites, but that initial fading of the print on the first wash irrates me. It has been acceptable for my clients, including a 27 shirt order I am currently printing. We show each client a washed proof, they all like em. But for me, I really need these inks to bond better. So far, dye sublimation seems to hold up better on whites, not much, but better.


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## zoom_monster

Printzilla said:


> If you are gonna dream...dream *BIG..* why not a separate capping station and head for each color... then you never lose ink to cleanings. you could also just purge the heads individually!
> 
> And while we are at it, how about no pretreat white, affordable white ink, and pigs that fly!


Hey..... I think we're approaching that Kornit price now _@_


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## lalove

Hi Mark

I think the problem with printing on dark shirts is that none of the manufacturers have come up with a consistent way of pretreating the garment, It is a matter of trial and error. Proper Manuals have not been developed prior to the sale of the machines hence the teething problems with printing.

I think it can be done but someone has to come up with a 1,2,3 no miss way of pretreating that is inexpensive and easy to follow.

Lalove


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## Printzilla

lalove said:


> I think it can be done but someone has to come up with a 1,2,3 no miss way of pretreating that is inexpensive and easy to follow.
> 
> Lalove


Even with this in place for several power users, the failure rate is over what would be acceptable in any other segment of our industry. I am not disparaging the white ink. It certainly works and is getting better all the time, just not as consistent as SP or EMB for example.


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## zoom_monster

Anytime something is done by hand, there is going to be a learning curve, and an apptitude needed to learn the "art" of doing something the right way. Add to this, the fact that we all have certain expectations that may or may not be based in reality and we're doomed to frustration. I'd screenprinted for 15 years, I've digitized for embroidery for the last 5, in both of these I can do things efficiently now that I could not do in the begining. It wasn't only a matter of the proper instructions and tools.. it was a matter of getting my feet wet so to speak, and learning the feel of everything. You cannot write a manual or sit someone down in class and teach them to ride a bike. You explain the concept the best you can, have them observe proper behavior.... Then get behind the wheel and let _them_ make it their own.

This is not to say there's not a better way out there. There will be more automated ways of doing this in the future, Guaranteed. Automation will make it more scientific and consistant. by learning the art, some of us will be able to create this finer mousetrap.


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## embloom

Printzilla said:


> Even with this in place for several power users, the failure rate is over what would be acceptable in any other segment of our industry. I am not disparaging the white ink. It certainly works and is getting better all the time, just not as consistent as SP or EMB for example.


I believe you're right. It doesn't seem to be as consistant as SP or EMB. 
But I'm not sure that "_not being as consistant as SP or EMB"_ is unacceptable.
As I understand it, if the application is for 1 offs and short runs, it's at least "acceptable" to some segment of the industry. 

And what is it the power users know that apparently eludes so many others about pre-treatment? Is it an intangible? Something that can't be learned from a step-by-step manual alone? Could skill, ability, experience and/or artistry be critical factors? Or maybe some combination thereof?
I'm sure there are many who would like to hear about it.  

Also I'll bet there are many that would like to know just what the current "failure rate" is & what an "acceptable" failure rate would be? 

All in all it sounds a little disparaging to me.

Of course it would be great if inks were developed that didn't require pre-treatment.  Improvements are needed in many facets of dtg printing and they will come.

But for now, is it too much to suggest that a 1, 2, 3, no miss way of pre-treating that is inexpensive and easy to follow be established? 
Seems pretty basic to me. 

And relatively speaking, is it all that difficult a thing to come up with. (especially with help from those power users )

Why not start there; then let skill, ability,experience etc.be the factors determining different levels of success. 


"SunnyDaze" Bobbie I'd really like to hear your thoughts.


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## oldkush

As someone who has been looking at DTG printers for 2 years now, no company has convinced me that their "white ink technology" is the answer to printing on darks. 

Personally, I think the white ink printers available now are 1) too slow 2) too expensive 3) printing costs are too high 4) the process is too troublesome.

Would I like to have a white ink printer ... yes. Would I buy one of the printers now available ... no.

Someday when a company does come out with an honest to goodness white ink printer, there are going to be a lot of old white ink technology paper weights for sale.

Bob


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## Printzilla

embloom said:


> But for now, is it too much to suggest that a 1, 2, 3, no miss way of pre-treating that is inexpensive and easy to follow be established?
> Seems pretty basic to me.
> 
> And relatively speaking, is it all that difficult a thing to come up with. (especially with help from those power users )
> 
> Why not start there; then let skill, ability,experience etc.be the factors determining different levels of success.
> 
> 
> "SunnyDaze" Bobbie I'd really like to hear your thoughts.


It is not so much that anything the power users do is so different. I think the crux of the issue is what tolerance level for results each individual user has. Some can handle less than perfect results, some can handle mediocre, some can handle crappy, and some cannot handle anything short of perfect. Some also have a higher tolerance for waste than others. Some have a better business plan than others for the state of the technology.

One mans acceptable white ink shirt is another man's rag.


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## GRH

Printzilla said:


> It is not so much that anything the power users do is so different. I think the crux of the issue is what tolerance level for results each individual user has. Some can handle less than perfect results, some can handle mediocre, some can handle crappy, and some cannot handle anything short of perfect. Some also have a higher tolerance for waste than others. Some have a better business plan than others for the state of the technology.
> 
> One mans acceptable white ink shirt is another man's rag.


Marc, well said.

As the one that keeps stirring this white ink pot I would like to better explain myself. I am not saying that you can't print white. If you have the right market you _might_ even make some money doing it. 

I am saying that the process as it stands today is not acceptable for most people buying these machines. You can make some great white ink prints that are wash-fast if you can stand the inconsistency and the pretreatment stains. 

The main problem is as the printers and ink are today there is no consistent or acceptable way to pretreat. I have yet to have a customer say "I love the pretreatment stains on these shirts". I hate to send a shirt out knowing that the pretreatment may not be perfect and the print may wash out or collect lint in the laundry in the pretreated areas. Some people seem to be ok with this but I am not. There are simply too many variables in the pretreatment process. The industry needs to address the pretreatment issue before moving to bigger and faster printers that will have the same problem.

It's possible that this is the best that can be done with an Epson based machine although I would think that a company like Dupont could figure out an ink and pretreatment that was consistent and acceptable. I seems to me that the industry is happy with "It's not impossible to print white ink". I personally think this is not acceptable. 

I would like to hear some news from the industry that they are working on this problem at light speed. All I hear is that a newer faster printer will soon be on the market (_with the same pretreatment problems_).

I am tired of hearing that these printers are for one offs only. Why should I not be able to take a 100 shirt order for dark shirts? *I can for light shirts* _*and make great money doing it*_. Every large order that I have done on dark shirts has been a nightmare. I can calculate production and ink costs but you can't calculate the cost of a process that is completely inconsistent.

I am happy for the ones that are OK with the way things are today. I am personally not at all happy with the white ink process as it stands today.

Best Regards,
GRH


----------



## zoom_monster

Bob, 
Great to see you here. Since you do embroidery, I'd like to offer an analogy for the printers in general and pretreatment more specifically. When someone goes out and buys a machine, there is going to be a learning curve. In embroidery, the hooping, the tension, maintenance, the adjustment made for different fabrics all have to be quantified and learned by the operator. If we are to look at the process as the digitizing (I know it's a stretch.. but hear me out) the best digitizers in the world still have to have knowledge of the product, test a design and get that feedback to produce the "perfect result". You and I know, even with the most expensive buttons to push, It will not happen overnight. That perfect result is then put into production and the inconsistencies of the substrate can become apparent. We as business people learn to see these imperfections, and adjust our techniques to minimize them. I know as a new operator you end up working for a lot less than you are worth, but if you study the process AND charge enough to keep yourself afloat, you will learn the tricks and turns that make this profitable. I see that eventually we will have machines do the pretreatment or perhaps devices that are better than the paint sprayers and bottles being used now. I agree it's pathetic, that the powers that be don't have this worked out, but they are focused on something totally different. I believe the solution will come from one of us "frustrated" but dedicated users. I too was looking at these for many years, and I jumped in because I saw customers that could be serviced by what these printers can do rather that what they will do in the future. I can offer my clients screen-printing, I can offer them embroidery. They make the choice based on affordability and their needs. I'm in a position to explain the differences, so that they can be comfortable with their choice. The company I bought from has excellent trainers, product and supplies. Was I and expert right out of the gate? No (I'm still not). I'm just paying my dues and having a great time and creating some cash also! I'm sure my anology can be shot full of holes, but I hope that we all can appreciate the compexity and the simplicity of it all.


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## sunnydayz

embloom said:


> I believe you're right. It doesn't seem to be as consistant as SP or EMB.
> But I'm not sure that "_not being as consistant as SP or EMB"_ is unacceptable.
> As I understand it, if the application is for 1 offs and short runs, it's at least "acceptable" to some segment of the industry.
> 
> And what is it the power users know that apparently eludes so many others about pre-treatment? Is it an intangible? Something that can't be learned from a step-by-step manual alone? Could skill, ability, experience and/or artistry be critical factors? Or maybe some combination thereof?
> I'm sure there are many who would like to hear about it.
> 
> Also I'll bet there are many that would like to know just what the current "failure rate" is & what an "acceptable" failure rate would be?
> 
> All in all it sounds a little disparaging to me.
> 
> Of course it would be great if inks were developed that didn't require pre-treatment.  Improvements are needed in many facets of dtg printing and they will come.
> 
> But for now, is it too much to suggest that a 1, 2, 3, no miss way of pre-treating that is inexpensive and easy to follow be established?
> Seems pretty basic to me.
> 
> And relatively speaking, is it all that difficult a thing to come up with. (especially with help from those power users )
> 
> Why not start there; then let skill, ability,experience etc.be the factors determining different levels of success.
> 
> 
> "SunnyDaze" Bobbie I'd really like to hear your thoughts.


I believe that if you go into it with the right mind set, and a good business plan, anyone of the machines can be a success. I myself go into everything I do with the worst case senario such as I look at having no income, no profit, alot of hours of learning and totally dedicating myself to my goal. My husband thinks this is a pessimistic attitude but I figure if I go into things looking at it this way I dont have any false expectations. Like when I told my husband that I was buying the HM1 machine, he said "well that should be easy you just have to sell this many garments a month to make the payment ' and I told him I am basing my business plan on selling zero garments per month. Mind you the things I start usually end up alot better than my initial expectations because like I said, I go into it having low expectations so anything above that is a success. 

I was a welder for 15 years doing custom forged iron work(and mind you when I started I had only done a little forging when I was a teenager as a hobby) and when I started everyone thought I was crazy because I was a girl who weighed 105 lbs and was 5'3", every job I went to do, the contractors would look at me like ya right your going to this work, but I proved everytime that I could and after that they respected me, I raised my daughter as a single mother making a very good income in fact well above average. My point is that I dont expect to make a million dollars and I dont go in having stars in my eyes. I do very extensive research and then decide if it is something I am willing to put time into learning and working at being a success no matter how much time and frustration it takes me.

Am I happy when I make a profit? you bet. Am I happy when my income grows from my business? Absolutely. My point is dont do it because you think you will become rich over night, do it because you have a goal and you want to accomplish it. I dont expect that the white ink is going to make me money right now, hopefully they will come out with better inks and pretreatment. My business deals with small orders and the majority of what I print is for infants and small children so, small designs. This I hope will eventually work well for me and I sure hope it gets better for those of you who are having problems now. I think everyone is going to have their own opinion and some may be stronger than others. However their opinions do not shape what my goals are, in fact I have learned alot from the people who have had problems and things I can watch for while I am learning. I definately am going into this with my eyes wide open and understand that it could potentially be a disaster, or it could be the best thing I ever do in my life. Alot of that depends on how much I want it.

Bobbie


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## Gunslinger

Actually, my wife and I crunched the numbers, before our purchase. I can't speak for her, but I have every intention of making a million bucks or more. When my daily printing nears capacity, I'll buy another machine maybe hire an extra hand. And when that taps out, I will buy another and so on. While we started out trying to fill a screenprinter void in our community, relying on just that to make really good money was absurd. So, attacking the retail side, particularly the internet, is key for us. One way or another, a million dollars is going to be made ... not tomorrow, not this year ... but it will be made.


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## sunnydayz

Gunslinger said:


> Actually, my wife and I crunched the numbers, before our purchase. I can't speak for her, but I have every intention of making a million bucks or more. When my daily printing nears capacity, I'll buy another machine maybe hire an extra hand. And when that taps out, I will buy another and so on. While we started out trying to fill a screenprinter void in our community, relying on just that to make really good money was absurd. So, attacking the retail side, particularly the internet, is key for us. One way or another, a million dollars is going to be made ... not tomorrow, not this year ... but it will be made.


My expectations and what is possible are two different things just because I dont expect to make a million dollars does not mean I am not capable. I made this statement about my expectations to clarify I am not believing I am going to get rich overnight with the technology the way it is today. As things progress with new inks and pretreatments than the odds of making more of a profit are more likely. Will I make profit, I imagine I will mostly with white and light color prints. I would not have bought the machine if I did not believe it could have some benefit to me but I dont set high expectations so when I do run into barriers I am not dissappointed. That was all I was stating.

Bobbie


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## Gunslinger

Well, I hope none of you are actually expecting riches overnight in any of your endevours. And I know any one of y'all are capable to make good money. But with all the headaches of darks and colors, I just refuse to let that hold us back and just print whites and lights ... which I am seeing with some of the original T-Jet or T-Jet 2 users. If anything, let your whites and lights profits off-set the smaller profits from the darks ... it just seems to limiting to me.

I do understand all the fallout from this emerging technology, I had to hear the same stuff when I beta testing for Microsoft when each new Windows was coming out. Just the name of the game.

Do I really wanna take a 1500 black shirt order, and barely breakeven? LOL, no ... but I won't refuse the order. I'll make it up on the small custom orders, and retail.

I don't know ... it just seems not doing darks, is either going to lose customers, and give money away to competitors.


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## sunnydayz

I did not say that I was not going to print dark garments, if you search previous posts of mine that I posted concerning dtg printing, you will see I have every intention of printing dark garments, just lot large runs of them. Since you are fairly new to the forums you may want to read more of the info found here. There is a wealth of it here by alot of members and their experiences with DTG printing.

Bobbie


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## Gunslinger

My apologies ... I did read it and more as I read these forums my wife show me for a week, before deciding to join. These forums were the best I had seen, as others allowed more conflict than I can stomach. My memory sucks, anyway ... apologies in advance to y'all, as I learn more about everyone.

My statement wasn't intended to be directed at any one individual, but what I have seen and heard and read by folks in DTG. I just wanted to get it out there, with regards to darks.

LOL ... BTW, did we ever decide what is the best machine for doing darks???


----------



## sunnydayz

Haha, that was kinda my point. That this had gotten completely off topic. I myself am buying the HM1 after seeing all of the others print and because I cant afford to buy the kornit right now hehe.

I do plan to use the light and dark printing and my machine choice is based on what I have seen and my own opinions. its seems every thread in the dtg forum lately ulltimately turns into the white ink debate. I am sure the person asking the question really wants an answer to the question they asked instead of whether people like white ink. It is apparent that the white ink has its problems but I think it would really be helpful if people gave other info on the printers as well. such as what tricks have you found to make your printer work better or why you think you have chosen the right printer for you. 

My opinion on which printer is best is the HM1, but I think as I stated in another post, that I think any machine can be successful as they are all built pretty much on the same technology. There are just small differences that some may prefer over others.

I am sorry if I came accross rude in any way Gunslinger it just seems no matter what question is being asked it always ends up being about white ink 

Bobbie


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## Printzilla

Gunslinger said:


> LOL ... BTW, did we ever decide what is the best machine for doing darks???


Fast AnaDTGnit!


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## Printzilla

sunnydayz said:


> it always ends up being about white ink
> 
> Bobbie


That is because almost everything else is fairly simple. At least in my experience with my machines from three different manufacturers.


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## sunnydayz

I totally agree with that Marc. But I think people like yourself can also offer alot of really great user info that would be helpful to other people who dont know about the technology yet and are just learning. Thats all I am saying. 

Bobbie


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## Gunslinger

LOL ... I am seeing that now that I jumped into these forums ... there just any real answer, there isn't any perfected machine, yet. Which can be really depressing when I need to add on, later.

Sunny is right, though. We should start other threads on our individual machines, the hows and whys we chose them, and something I am guilty of ... tips and tricks of how we overcame the problems of our machines, or the rest of the process that we get the best prints on our shirts. I sure haven't found a perfect solution for my whites, yet, and would like to see how you guys are getting those out there!

I can say one thing about the machine engine, I ain't thrilled with epson r1800. We are just starting the dye sub stuff, and I am likely to pay more for a 4800 engine. The first T-Jet 3 we received, I spent a week trying to get it load a shirt, the machine just refused to load with a shirt holder on it. Sent it back, got a new one, and was up and running. But she is still tempermental, I don't think I have ever printed more than a dozen times without error lights going off, forcing a reboot.

Ooops ... that shoulda been posting in a future new thread ... lol.


----------



## sunnydayz

Gunslinger said:


> LOL ... I am seeing that now that I jumped into these forums ... there just any real answer, there isn't any perfected machine, yet. Which can be really depressing when I need to add on, later.
> 
> Sunny is right, though. We should start other threads on our individual machines, the hows and whys we chose them, and something I am guilty of ... tips and tricks of how we overcame the problems of our machines, or the rest of the process that we get the best prints on our shirts. I sure haven't found a perfect solution for my whites, yet, and would like to see how you guys are getting those out there!
> 
> I can say one thing about the machine engine, I ain't thrilled with epson r1800. We are just starting the dye sub stuff, and I am likely to pay more for a 4800 engine. The first T-Jet 3 we received, I spent a week trying to get it load a shirt, the machine just refused to load with a shirt holder on it. Sent it back, got a new one, and was up and running. But she is still tempermental, I don't think I have ever printed more than a dozen times without error lights going off, forcing a reboot.
> 
> Ooops ... that shoulda been posting in a future new thread ... lol.


actually I think this kind of information is what the poster is looking for. Individual opinions on the machines out there.  

Bobbie


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## Gunslinger

Yup, the T-Jet 3 is high-maintainance. I also don't like the gravity ink system. Trying to prime the cartridges (which I have to do when the air bubbles start to build up)is very annoying and potentially messy (which I though was a BIG reason to avoid becoming a screen printer). And not sure how this compares to the other machines, but it really wants to run daily. Let it sit too long (3 days I didn't use it, due to getting my website finished), and it's head cleaning hell. Speaking of head cleanings, I can't get through 6 or 7 prints before banding starts to creep up, so the machine needs a head cleaning ... the lower the resolution, the worse the banding. I tend to stick with 1440x720 resolutions on nearly all my prints, which basically doubles the print time, but wastes less ink in extra head cleanings.

Can't wait to run out there and git yourself a brand new T-Jet 3, can ya??? LOL


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## sunnydayz

From what I understand they all be should be run at least once per day to cut down on clogging issues. So dont feel bad they all like to be run every day hehe.

Bobbie


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## Gunslinger

... (sniffle) and all this time I thought mine was special.


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## csquared

Michael sounds like you have either are keeping the ink low or the lines are too long. All DTG machines want to run every day , its the nature of the beast, as do all inkjet printers, this is a fact of life but if you run one head cleaning a day (this can be with the bulk cleaning system in) you will be fine.


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## jki540

hi everyone...i thought i should chime-in too since i just decided on my dtg printer. i've decided to go with the anajet. these were my reasons: 1) they're close to me, so (hopefully) the support will be more convenient and fast; 2) i like the ink cartridge system. i know it costs more, but the bulk ink systems look frought with issues (IMHO) and the cartridges are vaccuum packed, which means when you shake them the air doesn't circulate which cuts down on bubbles; 3) the white ink in this printer seems just as good (or should i say "bad") as all the other printers...the evil was no worse; 4) the print quality was very nice.

from a biz plan perspective i only plan to sell dark shirts at the retail level and light/white shirts at the wholesale level. this strategy will allow me to capture a large enough margin to offset the print costs of the white ink prints. all the shirts i print will be customized, so they are all going to be one-off runs. we will not do any bulk printing. i'm shooting for low volume, high margin sales as i get into this. i agree with the earlier post about new t-shirt biz models emerging...i really think that's true as well, and that these DTG printers are profitable - not because they're a silver bullet - but because they support a unique model.

my training is being scheduled for a couple of weeks from now. if anyone has any input on specific issues i should bring up during training (besides: When will the white ink be better?), please let me know. this forum has been a tremendous help in making this decision. in fact, i'm not sure what i would have done were it not for this forum! i appreciate everyone's thoughts and the camraderie that exists as we all work toward a better solution for the customers we all value.


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## embloom

jki540 said:


> hi everyone...i thought i should chime-in too since i just decided on my dtg printer. i've decided to go with the anajet. these were my reasons: 1) they're close to me, so (hopefully) the support will be more convenient and fast; 2) i like the ink cartridge system. i know it costs more, but the bulk ink systems look frought with issues (IMHO) and the cartridges are vaccuum packed, which means when you shake them the air doesn't circulate which cuts down on bubbles; 3) the white ink in this printer seems just as good (or should i say "bad") as all the other printers...the evil was no worse; 4) the print quality was very nice.
> 
> from a biz plan perspective i only plan to sell dark shirts at the retail level and light/white shirts at the wholesale level. this strategy will allow me to capture a large enough margin to offset the print costs of the white ink prints. all the shirts i print will be customized, so they are all going to be one-off runs. we will not do any bulk printing. i'm shooting for low volume, high margin sales as i get into this. i agree with the earlier post about new t-shirt biz models emerging...i really think that's true as well, and that these DTG printers are profitable - not because they're a silver bullet - but because they support a unique model.
> 
> my training is being scheduled for a couple of weeks from now. if anyone has any input on specific issues i should bring up during training (besides: When will the white ink be better?), please let me know. this forum has been a tremendous help in making this decision. in fact, i'm not sure what i would have done were it not for this forum! i appreciate everyone's thoughts and the camraderie that exists as we all work toward a better solution for the customers we all value.


Did you see Prinzilla's post on August 10, 2007?
In it, Marc mentions "SGIA in October will probably produce a couple of new machines and rumor has it some in the 10-12k range."
Thought you might like to know.
p.s. When will the white ink be better?


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## jki540

hi there...yep. i saw printzilla's post. thanks for the heads-up. i corresponded with him briefly. my needs are a bit unusual, so i really needed to get things started ASAP. if i could afford to wait a few more weeks, i probably would have.


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## embloom

jki540 said:


> hi there...yep. i saw printzilla's post. thanks for the heads-up. i corresponded with him briefly. my needs are a bit unusual, so i really needed to get things started ASAP. if i could afford to wait a few more weeks, i probably would have.


Sounds like you've done your homework, know what you need & when you need it; all good steps towards success.
All the best to you!


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## Gunslinger

csquared said:


> Michael sounds like you have either are keeping the ink low or the lines are too long. All DTG machines want to run every day , its the nature of the beast, as do all inkjet printers, this is a fact of life but if you run one head cleaning a day (this can be with the bulk cleaning system in) you will be fine.


Chris, thanks! Let me play with that a bit, and I'll see if that improves things. One head cleaning a day, would be an amazing acheivement. Is that what everyone else here getting? One head cleaning a day??

I need to get two orders wrapped up over the weekend, but I will try your advice. BTW, nice website and designs!


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## csquared

Thanks Michael, yeah I only do one head cleaning a day with the cleaning solution in (if my machine will be down for more than two days). I do find myself doing maybe three head cleanings in a typical work day.


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## Printzilla

3? Mine automatically do at least 3 in a 10 hour work day. I have never counted, but I know it is at least 3, especially if printing with white ink, because of resetting the carts.


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## oldkush

Printzilla said:


> 3? Mine automatically do at least 3 in a 10 hour work day. I have never counted, but I know it is at least 3, especially if printing with white ink, because of resetting the carts.



I have decided to give up on purchasing a DTG printer until the white ink technology improves but a year ago when I considered buying one, I talked to a screen printer who I met at a show. He owned a white ink DTG printer [sorry dont remember which brand now] which he thought he would use for very short runs, one of a kinds, etc.

To make a long story short, he was disappointed in the printer and head cleanings were one of the complaints he had about his printer.

Again, I don't remember which DTG printer he had .... so I don't want to paint all printers with the same brush.

Bob


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## Gunslinger

csquared said:


> Thanks Michael, yeah I only do one head cleaning a day with the cleaning solution in (if my machine will be down for more than two days). I do find myself doing maybe three head cleanings in a typical work day.


We just got a note from our distributor, who has come out with a new bulk ink system, and he is offering it free to all us T-Jet 3 users. So, you are probably hitting the nail on the head, Chris. I'll wait until I get mine, test it, and let folks know if this solves some the problems we are having. His last bulk ink system for the older T-Jets seemed to be a much needed improvement for them, so I will cross my fingers and toes.


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## THREADZ

I use a t jet 2 and print on dark quite a bit and I think they wash out less than the light colored shirts. I use a regular paint gun and an air compressor in a spray booth to apply the pretreatment and it lays it right every time.


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## mwahib

hi all
am new to this field i have a digital center and i want to open new line 
in t-shirt printing 
i have some questions need an answer so please if you can help me on it.
1-which machine should i get DTG kiosk or T-jet3
2-which machine dose not have much problem in maintenance
3-usually which parts need to be changed in the machine 
4-which on is the best in printing white ink on dark-shirts

thanks


----------



## Belquette

mwahib said:


> hi all
> am new to this field i have a digital center and i want to open new line
> in t-shirt printing
> i have some questions need an answer so please if you can help me on it.
> 1-which machine should i get DTG kiosk or T-jet3
> 2-which machine dose not have much problem in maintenance
> 3-usually which parts need to be changed in the machine
> 4-which on is the best in printing white ink on dark-shirts
> 
> thanks


The kiosk and t-jet are similar machines with similar strengths and weaknesses, my advice would be to wait until the upcoming SGIA show in October.
There will be some new developments that you will want to consider for your new business. 
If you cannot make it to this show there will be information on this new cutting edge technology prior to the show. 
Simply put, this new platform will be fastest most versatile multi substrate flatbed printer in the industry (on whites or darks) that will set new standards and raise the bar.


Mark


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## printerguy

The T-Jet 3 is the latest model in the T-Jet line. It will print about 20% to 30% faster then the Kiosk. The Kiosk would have the same print speed as the previous T-Jet 2 model.


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## mwahib

thanks for your replay but the problem i live in gulf region and thats why i have all these question specially about the maintenance is it easy for these machine or it will be very hard


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## printerguy

mwahib said:


> thanks for your replay but the problem i live in gulf region and thats why i have all these question specially about the maintenance is it easy for these machine or it will be very hard


I can only speak for the T-Jet's as I do not have experience with the Kiosk. At the end of each print day you need to spend a little under 5 minutes on maintenance which is basically cleaning and is easy to do. If you do that, and keep the printer in a clean temperature controlled room, you should not have any issues.


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## sunnydayz

printerguy said:


> The T-Jet 3 is the latest model in the T-Jet line. It will print about 20% to 30% faster then the Kiosk. The Kiosk would have the same print speed as the previous T-Jet 2 model.


The newest Kiosk, the HM1 is much faster than the older version, I believe it is faster than the T-jet 3 if I remember correctly.

Bobbie


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## Printzilla

The HM-1 is faster than the 1800 based machines, at least now. It seems as if Mark from Belquette knows something about that that we do not. Maybe he would like to elaborate on the speed issue.


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## Hansca

THREADZ said:


> I use a t jet 2 and print on dark quite a bit and I think they wash out less than the light colored shirts. I use a regular paint gun and an air compressor in a spray booth to apply the pretreatment and it lays it right every time.


 
You got it! I only use a real paint gun with compressor and have excellent results.


----------



## printerguy

Printzilla said:


> The HM-1 is faster than the 1800 based machines, at least now. It seems as if Mark from Belquette knows something about that that we do not. Maybe he would like to elaborate on the speed issue.


The HM-1 is based on the 2400 and the T-Jet 3 is based on the 1800. As far as the head assemblies go the speeds are identical according to Epson specs. In actually watching both print at trade shows I have not noticed the HM-1 print faster then the T-Jet3. If anything it did seem slower to me. But I don't mean to start an argument so I will say they're equal in speed.


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## Gunslinger

When Bobbie gets her machine up to speed ... we should have a speed test. I know I would be curious, and might help future buyers with a comparison.

Blue vrs. Red ... mmm, maybe the winner gets a free Tee!


----------



## Printzilla

There is quite a bit of difference in the head assemblies of the 1800 & 2400 Epson printers. The 1800 head allows for a much large dot size to be jetted than the 2400 head. The 2400 is between 15-20% (cannot remember the exact number off the top of my head) faster than 1800.

It is dangerous to base speed assumptions on what you see at the trade shows. I can set either printer up to smoke the other. What if the HM1 is printing 2880, and the Tjet 3 is printing at 360? How about vice versa?

The true measure of speed would need to be the same image, from the same rip, at the same resolution. In this scenario the 2400 is faster. Now maybe there are firmware upgrades available, or Belquette has some how engineered more speed for the 1800, I do not have this information.


----------



## Printzilla

Gunslinger - send me an image with all the pertinent info, and I will run it on one of my HM1's. You can run it on the T3 and we can post our results.


----------



## Mistewoods

Printzilla said:


> There is quite a bit of difference in the head assemblies of the 1800 & 2400 Epson printers. The 1800 head allows for a much large dot size to be jetted than the 2400 head. The 2400 is between 15-20% (cannot remember the exact number off the top of my head) faster than 1800.
> 
> It is dangerous to base speed assumptions on what you see at the trade shows. I can set either printer up to smoke the other. What if the HM1 is printing 2880, and the Tjet 3 is printing at 360? How about vice versa?
> 
> The true measure of speed would need to be the same image, from the same rip, at the same resolution. In this scenario the 2400 is faster. Now maybe there are firmware upgrades available, or Belquette has some how engineered more speed for the 1800, I do not have this information.


Excellent points- 

How does the RIP affect the print speed? Do you mean speed driving the printer or the time from sending to the RIP to the finished print?


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## Gunslinger

Yeah, I should have been more specific about a speed test. When I had run all tests (3 months ago?) to test the differences of the various modes (360, 720, 1440x720, 1440 ... 2 pass, bi-directional, photo and cartoon), I had each print with a sticky note of the mode and time I used. Unfortunately, they fell off the fabrics before I wrote the results down ... duh. So, I need to run another comparison test, anyway.

Since then, my FastArtist and FastRip software has been upgraded, which may affect the speeds. There is also another improvement, but I need to get back to my distributor, before I get into here.

I don't know what software the HM-1 uses, so I don't know what mode differences we may each have. But I will run the tests, and post results.

How should we put this together? White shirts? And what print should we use, and what size and DPI should we agree on?


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## Printzilla

Lets do a 10 x 12 design. White Shirt. Since speed is what we are focused on for this test, lets just do one pass at 720. I can provide the file via a yousendit placement.


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## Printzilla

Also, we should break the time down. 

Total time from pressing print in Photoshop, to the shirt ejecting.

Total time of just the printing. (this way the RIPS are evaluated independently, and do not influence the actual speed of printing. this will give us an accurate production speed number.)


----------



## Gunslinger

Works for me, send away! I am turning on the shop.


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## Printzilla

I will have to post up when I get to the shop tonight. Right now I am browsing on my phone.


----------



## printerguy

Printzilla said:


> There is quite a bit of difference in the head assemblies of the 1800 & 2400 Epson printers. The 1800 head allows for a much large dot size to be jetted than the 2400 head. The 2400 is between 15-20% (cannot remember the exact number off the top of my head) faster than 1800.
> 
> It is dangerous to base speed assumptions on what you see at the trade shows. I can set either printer up to smoke the other. What if the HM1 is printing 2880, and the Tjet 3 is printing at 360? How about vice versa?
> 
> The true measure of speed would need to be the same image, from the same rip, at the same resolution. In this scenario the 2400 is faster. Now maybe there are firmware upgrades available, or Belquette has some how engineered more speed for the 1800, I do not have this information.


Sorry, but I have to disagree with you on the 2400 head assembly being faster or quite different then the 1800. They are pretty much the same assembly with some minor differences. In fact, the Epson service manual for them is one combined book for both printers. Going by Epson's own published specs. printing an 11" x 14" photo to paper at 5760 x 1440 dpi takes 1 min 47 sec on the 2400 and 1 min 51 sec on the 1800. Pretty much a draw. 

As for not being able to accurately compare print speeds of the HM-1 and the T-Jet 3 at trade shows, I don't know what else a potential customer can go by? I would imagine that the manufacturers exhibiting at the shows are going to set up their printers to print as fast as they are able to. I'm sure they want to impress possible buyers with as fast a print time as they can do.


----------



## Gunslinger

Printzilla said:


> I will have to post up when I get to the shop tonight. Right now I am browsing on my phone.


Not a prob ... needed to boot up the shop, anyway. I have underbase bugs to work out.


----------



## Printzilla

printerguy said:


> I would imagine that the manufacturers exhibiting at the shows are going to set up their printers to print as fast as they are able to. I'm sure they want to impress possible buyers with as fast a print time as they can do.


Once again, I think this is very flawed logic. If they set them up to print as fast as possible, then the output would be horrible. I can assure you as someone who has both tjets and kiosks that they do not print at the shows with the same settings. Quality or speed wise.

As far as the Epson head issues are concerned, I cannot argue the point on the information stated in the manual, because I have not seen it. However, I can argue with the knowledge that the two dtg epson based machines, one 2400, one 1800, have been compared side by side, and the 2400 was faster printing the same image, at the same resolution.


----------



## printerguy

Printzilla said:


> As far as the Epson head issues are concerned, I cannot argue the point on the information stated in the manual, because I have not seen it. However, I can argue with the knowledge that the two dtg epson based machines, one 2400, one 1800, have been compared side by side, and the 2400 was faster printing the same image, at the same resolution.


Please correct me if I'm wrong but it sounds like you're referring to the DTG HM-1 compared to the original DTG Kiosk. The Kiosk uses a 2200 head assembly, not an 1800.


----------



## Printzilla

I am aware that the kiosk and tjet 1&2 use the 2200. I had 4 of them (just recently sold 3 of them to make room for my new hm1's). The rips provided by each manufacturer run the two machines in very different ways, this is the reason I commented that they are run so differently at the shows. 

I am discussing direct to garment machines based on the 1800 & 2400 epson print engines.

Maybe I am wrong, happens all the time. Just ask my wife, and employees.


----------



## Printzilla

Also let me say that the 15-20% speed increase is not a major difference on white shirts. One was 40 seconds, the other 46-48. Hardly worth getting bent out of shape over it.

Even on darks it is only 30 seconds or so.


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## Gunslinger

Yeah, I agree, Marc. It's probably not a make or break deal, for a propective buyer. Wayyy too many OTHER issues to compare. It'll be interesting when we get another machine setup, to get a chance to really examine all the available machines out there, or on the way. We really jumped in DTG market faster than I would have liked to.


----------



## Belquette

> The 2400 is between 15-20% (cannot remember the exact number off the top of my head) faster than 1800.


Actually the Epson specs only show a difference of 4% between the unmodified printers.



> or Belquette has some how engineered more speed for the 1800, I do not have this information.


Who said anything about an 1800?  anyway...
increased speed is gained by optimizing the Y axis moves and material handling techniques not yet utilized in any current platforms.

We will be able to print 2 passes very close to and maybe even exceed what current platforms take printing one pass.

Mark


----------



## Printzilla

Great info Mark. Look forward to seeing what you have going once the veil of secrecy is lifted.

As far as the 1800, I read on a forum (I think maybe the tjet forum actually) that you guys were developing a new machine based on a smaller than 4800 format. I just assumed that it was the 1800 since DTG had the 2400. Sorry for the assumption.

Once again, I cannot comment on the official Epson specs, only on my observation of the test, which is obviously not scientific.


----------



## Belquette

Marc, just jabbing you about the 1800, the system is 1800 based for a few reasons, one you mentioned was the ability to eject a larger drop size.

The veil will be lifted in the coming weeks.

Will you be at the SGIA show?

Mark

ps: yea, I now have 12 posts over 3 years!


----------



## Mistewoods

Belquette said:


> Actually the Epson specs only show a difference of 4% between the unmodified printers.
> 
> Who said anything about an 1800?  anyway...
> increased speed is gained by optimizing the Y axis moves and material handling techniques not yet utilized in any current platforms.
> 
> We will be able to print 2 passes very close to and maybe even exceed what current platforms take printing one pass.
> 
> Mark


I don't understand x axis y axis stuff too well ( why oh why didn't I pay more attention in math class?)

But I really like the sound of FASTER.

Can't wait for the curtain to go up!

Michele


----------



## Belquette

Mistewoods said:


> I don't understand x axis y axis stuff too well ( why oh why didn't I pay more attention in math class?)
> 
> But I really like the sound of FASTER.
> 
> Can't wait for the curtain to go up!
> 
> Michele


Sorry, I need to take off my engineering hat at times. I consider the print head the X axis since it moves right and left, the Y axis moves in and out (what would be considered the paper path).

Mark


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## Printzilla

Gunslinger - did you get the link? I pm'ed it to you.


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## Gunslinger

Yup, got it ... and PM'd ya back. Now, I knocked the white out of the image, or do you want me to print the whole image on a white shirt?


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## Printzilla

White shirt to start. We can then do a different image to a black shirt.


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## Gunslinger

Printzilla said:


> White shirt to start. We can then do a different image to a black shirt.


I am referring to the actual image you sent. It has white in the image, which will print white ink on the white tee. But you already printed from your PM, so I will give it go with the original image, unless you correct me before hand.


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## Printzilla

Why would it print white ink on a white T? None of my dtg's have ever done that.


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## Gunslinger

Because white is in the image, why wouldn't it? You gave me a jpeg which doesn't do transparency. Maybe we have different software to print off ... I use FastArtist, then FastRip ... who knows, regardless, here are my print times:

720 mode = 1:10
1440 mode = 4:37

... as folks will later see, when you show your times the T-Jet 3 or r1800, is indeed far slower than your HM-1. But this was a straight 10x12 image. Tomorrow I will print the knocked out white image I made, and see if there is any significant improvement.


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## Printzilla

I print with fast artist on my tjets, and it never prints the white! Do you realize you can choose different settings for different shirts?

If the tjet3 needs the white knocked out, it is different than the tjet 1,2, or the kiosks.

Here are my times

720 - 38 seconds
1440 - 68 seconds

On darks the same image 

1440 x 720 both layers

rip 1:08
white 2:18
color 1:34 (this was due to an almost 30 second delay between passes???)

Total time 5:00
Print Time 3:52


----------



## martinwoods

jki540 said:


> hi everyone...i thought i should chime-in too since i just decided on my dtg printer. i've decided to go with the anajet. these were my reasons: 1) they're close to me, so (hopefully) the support will be more convenient and fast; 2) i like the ink cartridge system. i know it costs more, but the bulk ink systems look frought with issues (IMHO) and the cartridges are vaccuum packed, which means when you shake them the air doesn't circulate which cuts down on bubbles; 3) the white ink in this printer seems just as good (or should i say "bad") as all the other printers...the evil was no worse; 4) the print quality was very nice.
> 
> from a biz plan perspective i only plan to sell dark shirts at the retail level and light/white shirts at the wholesale level. this strategy will allow me to capture a large enough margin to offset the print costs of the white ink prints. all the shirts i print will be customized, so they are all going to be one-off runs. we will not do any bulk printing. i'm shooting for low volume, high margin sales as i get into this. i agree with the earlier post about new t-shirt biz models emerging...i really think that's true as well, and that these DTG printers are profitable - not because they're a silver bullet - but because they support a unique model.
> 
> my training is being scheduled for a couple of weeks from now. if anyone has any input on specific issues i should bring up during training (besides: When will the white ink be better?), please let me know. this forum has been a tremendous help in making this decision. in fact, i'm not sure what i would have done were it not for this forum! i appreciate everyone's thoughts and the camraderie that exists as we all work toward a better solution for the customers we all value.


Have you done anything with the machine yet? If so do you like it?
I looked at the machine in Indiana today and it seemed okay. Let me know what you think. I am thinking of possibly getting one but would like to hear from others that might have one. Interested in the dark shirt printing, not the white.

Thanks


----------



## Gunslinger

No, I didn't realize anything about different settings for different shirts. I will look into it tomorrow. And I will follow with the 1440 x 720, and include rip time.


----------



## NicMartel

I am a bit confused where to leave messages... hopefully I got it 'right' this time...
Due to the difficulty I have had to get answers from the suppliers, I started to investigate via forums to hear the natural drum beat of the T-Shirt/Garment imprinting jungle. ...and I see already champanzees are roaming... my % is neither 90 nor 10... more like 0! I started even to consider to get the equipment and do my own printing... but that may be out of reach now. It would be like putting the cart b4 the ox.

3 questions to get the ball rolling:

1. I am offered a DTG on my T-Shirts for $7.50 per unit(white garments), or 11.50(Dark Garments) setup included, unlimited colors, 1 location print, qty 49 to 144. Is that a competitive price for 6.1 ounce 100% cotton (Gildan Ultra cotton)

2. I read that DTG still requires a 40 seconds heat-pressing to seal the job so as to make it wash resistent or it will basically crumble in 2 or 3 washes. Is that true? ...or overkill? ...or just not necessary?

3. I had also thought that no setup is required, leading me to believe their statment 'setup included' is due to the fact that everyone expects setup charges on most other metthods? ...thus they are clarifying up front to not expect extra charges for setup?

Thank you in advance for addressing my concerns.


----------



## NicMartel

Although i address Pink, anyone may post replies to my messages.
ummmm... Pink!!!!!!!!!!! I see you have dropped out of the contest??? and what I am left with now is: who is the most correct? Is their point valid concerning the type market you have??? and the quality of the shirts is thus less than desirable? ...they are stained with the messy pretreatment, but this level of quality is acceptable to your particular group of buyers? Can you give more specifics? examples of T-shirt designs... how involved they are?? are they the type of designs that naturally hide the stains? ...thus only a keen eye would be aware?
I am not in this to imprint myself, I am a reseller of my own promontional garments... mostly white T-Shirts and Black T-Shirts now... and I am looking to see if I should bend towards DTG or design logos that are silk-screen conducive and give up the complex multi-colored designs. Wallmart carries a subtantial rack of full colored T-Shirts $9.99 RETAIL !!! I am curious to hear the rebuttles on my Walmart comment???


----------



## howrdstern

wal*mart - always low prices *** ALWAYS


----------



## Justin Walker

NicMartel said:


> 1. I am offered a DTG on my T-Shirts for $7.50 per unit(white garments), or 11.50(Dark Garments) setup included, unlimited colors, 1 location print, qty 49 to 144. Is that a competitive price for 6.1 ounce 100% cotton (Gildan Ultra cotton)
> 
> 3. I had also thought that no setup is required, leading me to believe their statment 'setup included' is due to the fact that everyone expects setup charges on most other metthods? ...thus they are clarifying up front to not expect extra charges for setup?


I do not think that is very competitive. I cannot tell you directly about our services because of self promotion restrictions on this forum, but my statement, regardless, holds true.

As for the "no setup is required" comment, this is hardly true. Depending on what machine you are using, there is usually setup involved. Minimally, it is adjusting artwork, running it through the RIP software, positioning the artwork in the template, and printing. The entire process of setting up for a job takes time, and this should always be accounted for. For dark garments, it could include pretreating the shirts, creating the underbase / highlight layers, RIPping the image, placing in template, etc. etc.


----------



## Justin Walker

NicMartel said:


> Wallmart carries a subtantial rack of full colored T-Shirts $9.99 RETAIL !!! I am curious to hear the rebuttles on my Walmart comment???


You are comparing two different animals. If someone walked into wal-mart and asked them for ten custom designed shirts with their own image on them, they would be laughed out of the store. You are comparing apples to oranges, here.

Wal-Mart likely orders thousands of each shirt design for their chain of stores nationwide. I can have thousands of a single design screenprinted, shirt included, for under five bucks easy. Could I have TWENTY shirts done the same way for the same price? Hell no. Digital is not meant to compete with Wal Mart - it is meant to do something they CAN'T do.


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## csquared

starting a business to compete with walmarts prices is generally not a good idea, although charging 9.99 for a custom T-shirt will still gain you an alright profit with DTG I prefer to charge as much as the market allows for my shirts...as they are custom one offs. 
I don't always buy the cheapest shirt but the one that I feel will be the best quality and represent my style the most..which walmart does not. You just have to find your market...


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## NicMartel

Indeed, not trying to compare walmart apple to apple, just wanted to bring it up to juggle people's minds... with technology, speed of transport, and communications reaching to the end of the globe, I can't see why some corporations that have the means would not outsource your work, abroad... effectively cutting you at the knees after you have invested 30K in your setup and have not had the chance to be in it long enough to justify the investment... and your equipment lies idle at the funeral home huhh I mean ebay for the next victim.
Thus calculate your amortization and be sure the window of opportunity is safe for that length... and it could become a double edge sword in your favor as the outsourcee may use lead based inks!!! Ironically...the client wud not even know the garment was printed on the other side of the globe before it was shipped but would still assume the raw garment WAS made there... yes indeed the wallstore carries generic designs... but today the distinction between generic and custom is getting rather blurred as the custom can be programmed here but fabricated where labor is cheap! ...and as a programmer whose job was outsourced 180% around the earth... I feel the pain from the direct experience... who would have known what I thought was a golden occupation would suddenly become a myre of uncertainty... perhaps I should become a plumber... they can't outsource the huhh! newspaper-break... or... can they?! nonetheless, not to discourage anyone, stay alert.


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## NicMartel

sorry! it actually said no setup charges (not no setup required)


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## NicMartel

Has anyone heard or experienced the ClearSoft transfer paper... they claim it beats Direct To Garment Printing ... won't peel, won't crack, won't wash off... just that is for light colored garments... no black or dark garments are mentioned ???
Ooooooooo! could that be a goodpartial solution??


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## Justin Walker

NicMartel said:


> 3. I had also thought that no setup is required


This is the statement I was referring to.


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## NicMartel

Can some of you make comments about the best mainstream workhorse of heat press suited to a startup or professional... please state features that you would not do without and any shortcomings based on design etc... if I am not to forward and demanding! I am trying to cut thru the chase so to speak... Thank you for your willingness to share. At some point I too will be able to share and improve the race of knowledge for all of us Thank you.


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## NicMartel

Justin...

Let me answer it better this time. Looks like my try above #114 failed. I had meant to say "...no setup charges..." instead of "...no setup required..."
I understand that some setup is required on any job, and I had mentioned 'charges' in the following sentences in the original message... thus let us be clear, *charges* is what I was referring to.


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## sunnydayz

NicMartel said:


> Can some of you make comments about the best mainstream workhorse of heat press suited to a startup or professional... please state features that you would not do without and any shortcomings based on design etc... if I am not to forward and demanding! I am trying to cut thru the chase so to speak... Thank you for your willingness to share. At some point I too will be able to share and improve the race of knowledge for all of us Thank you.


If you look at the name of the thread and the forum it is written in, you can see this thread was about which DTG printer is best suited to print on dark garments. It apprears your interest lies in heat transfer paper, maybe starting a thread in that forum with that title will get you the answers you are looking for. This forum is set up great in a way where if you go to that subject you can find most of the information you are looking for. Using the search feature is also a very helpful tool, as it will bring up all threads related to the info you are searching for. There are also many many threads about which transfer method is best in the heat transfer section of this forum. Hope this helps 
Everything takes a little searching and effort to find but if you are persistant in your search you will find the answers.

Bobbie


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## NicMartel

Point taken... I have realized that by now and started my own thread and I was wondering how to point some of the individuals in this thread as I liked their discussions... and what better time and place but to do it here and now... My thread is called "Direct on Garment Printing" ... can messages be moved to another thread? ..so I can move some of mine out of this trhrea? I know I was not able to rename my thread to "Direct To Garment Printing"


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## sunnydayz

NicMartel said:


> Point taken... I have realized that by now and started my own thread and I was wondering how to point some of the individuals in this thread as I liked their discussions... and what better time and place but to do it here and now... My thread is called "Direct on Garment Printing" ... can messages be moved to another thread? ..so I can move some of mine out of this trhrea? I know I was not able to rename my thread to "Direct To Garment Printing"


You could ask Rodney to rename a thread, He appears to have not been on this weekend but He is the one that would help you with that, in fact most times he will change the name if something different would describe it better, he is very good at that . These forums are a really great place to learn info on what you are looking for, unlike some boards where there is nothing but drama, this place has really nice people who are happy to help with most things. Maybe if you were more specific in what you are trying to learn you would get more help, as I myself am having a really hard time trying to understand what exactly you are asking, it is not really clear. Specific questions in the proper forum should yeild you much more information. I myself was working with heat transfer and now have invested in a DTG Hm1 printer. I love my new machine and because I did a fair amount of research before jumping into my purchase I have not had any real problems so far, but this is only my second week running it , but again I am very happy with my decision and the results I am able to produce with this machine. Is that the kind of info you were looking for? I will try to be helpful if you have questions have a great night

Bobbie


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## NicMartel

I did take a look at the HM1 and thought it was the type equipment I would like to work with... I am also looking into the Kornit 93X series... but most of these are beyond my reach right now... thus I still direct my efforts into educating myself about the whole process so I can farm my work to someone who has their thinking aligned and also to be ready when I do jump in... and that has made me look into a possible alternate solution like the Clearsoft process of Proworld... they claim their Clearsoft Transfer paper resolve the cracking, peeling, and the wash durability problems that are typical on Heat transfers... and the investment is much much lower, just a good Heat Press. I have my questions targeted better now, but keep in mind that i am also keying on individuals like you who may not see my comments unless I mention it here as well. Thank you for all your comments.


----------



## sunnydayz

NicMartel said:


> I did take a look at the HM1 and thought it was the type equipment I would like to work with... I am also looking into the Kornit 93X series... but most of these are beyond my reach right now... thus I still direct my efforts into educating myself about the whole process so I can farm my work to someone who has their thinking aligned and also to be ready when I do jump in... and that has made me look into a possible alternate solution like the Clearsoft process of Proworld... they claim their Clearsoft Transfer paper resolve the cracking, peeling, and the wash durability problems that are typical on Heat transfers... and the investment is much much lower, just a good Heat Press. I have my questions targeted better now, but keep in mind that i am also keying on individuals like you who may not see my comments unless I mention it here as well. Thank you for all your comments.


Have you looked into plasitol transfers? as far as transfers go you would probably get the best quality from those as they are screenprinted on the paper. I believe there are places that have pretty low minimums also. I dont think you will get the quality of print on a regular transfer as you will with a dtg. Plasitol as least is a transfer made from screenprinting therefore a much more professional look. That is just one opinion though (mine hehe) and there are many more here. If you look at the top of the heat transfer section of the forum you will see a little icon that says Diary, if you click on that, Rodney did a really great test of many transfers and posted the results he got from them as well as pics of what they looked like after wards. It is really a very interesting read and very informative. hope this helps  I myself was not happy with doing heat tranfers as they were limiting in the things I plan to do in the future such as printing across seams and different areas, also printing on darks was very important for me so that is why I purchased my hm1 and am really happy I did. You are doing the right thing in researching as much as you can before you decide what works for your particular business plan. good luck  I also wanted to let you know that after someone posts on a thread, anytime that thread is updated with new posts it automatically informs that person that there has been a response to that thread

Bobbie


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## NicMartel

Bobbie:
It just dawned on me that plastisol may not be a full color type print... since I key on what you said "... they are screenprinted on paper..." or does that particular screen printing provide full color(or near) as DTG printing does, or any other Heat Transfer substrates do? ... I had assumed that all Heat transfers are full color unless otherwise qualified?


----------



## sunnydayz

NicMartel said:


> Bobbie:
> It just dawned on me that plastisol may not be a full color type print... since I key on what you said "... they are screenprinted on paper..." or does that particular screen printing provide full color(or near) as DTG printing does, or any other Heat Transfer substrates do? ... I had assumed that all Heat transfers are full color unless otherwise qualified?


Plasitol is pretty much the same as screenprint but it is done on paper and then you press onto your garment. It is a different type of printing than dtg as are regular transfers. with regular transfers you will never get the quality of feel on the garment that you would with dtg as dtg does not have a adhesive backing. They are completely two different things. That is why I purchased a dtg printer because I wanted a more professional product. I am not saying you cannot get a professional look with transfers, perhaps some can but that was not the case for me and it is only my opinion. 

I suggested plasitol, because it seems you are trying to figure out what is the most professional looking as far as transfers go. you might want to check out a couple of plasitol tranfer sites and see what type of colors they do. I dont know because I have never purchased them but their are alot of people on here that use them as an alternative to screenprinting for shorter runs of garments. also look in the diary rodney did in the heat transfer section of the forum, as there is a thread over there just on plasitols and it also lists the vendors whos tranfers he tested. hope this helps

Bobbie


----------



## goochlandtees

ok I'm seem to be all over this thing now. I noticed by reading you guys, that if I wanted to get away from the wagner sprayer that an airbrush system is the way to go. Can you do this inside your office space without all the overspray. If so what brand should I look for?.

Thanx
DB


----------



## DAGuide

Darlene,

The key to pretreatment using Dupont's version is that you can't do it near the machine and you want to minimize the amount of overspray. I know some people that created a small booth on the other side of the room where they do the pretreating. So, it can be done inside with a HVLP sprayer. The higher quality HVLP sprayer you have, the better ability you have to control the overspray. I would imagine an airbrush system would give you good control as well.

Mark


----------



## bund tees

I think finger painting tees might be easier !!!

So much discussion and reading I am more bamboozled then before I begun. I think I will go with the Kiosk as it is affordable and suits my business needs.

Logic would suggest when they do come up with a better white ink that it will be adaptable to most machines or at the least machines will be able to be modified to adapt to the new inks . Distributors would be crazy to make all their machines obsolete by ostracizing older machines with new ink technology .

I think (read hope) it will be a bit like converting a petrol car to a natural gas car - the engine and body remains intact just a few things get moved around.

Also were I live I think it is better to get into the custom tee business now - off set the white ink cost and problems with the dark ink profitability and easy technique. That way when new white ink technology comes along I will have a ready market to deal with.

Waiting around just leaves the barn door open for someone else with more perseverance to slip in and steal your market.

I hope the force is with me......


----------



## Gunslinger

This is an older thread, so just to update for new folks ...

Bund ... yes, by all means jump in, and grab your local market! We were in a similiar situation, when a local screen printer retired here (after 17 years). There was a total void that needed to be filled (as you stated, before someone else digs in). After 9 months, we have done very well with our T-Jet 3 ... dispite all the quirks and rapid changes to software, inks and techniques. I am currently updating our website to update our portfolio ... this is the first breather I have had, since the Xmas rush.

Both the Kornit and Dupont white inks have evolved recently, giving us some amazing results for our clients. While white ink costs are high (at least, with regard to Dupont's), they can be reflected in your price structure (unless you are competing with a good screen printer). It gets less profitable doing very large jobs, but having the ability to bang out one-offs and smaller jobs at full color can balance out your profits.


----------



## bund tees

i hear you - i spoke to the dtg guy in oz yesterday and he said they don't use the dupont inks in the machine - i am going to email him to find out which ones they now use.



Apparently they have updated the software so that it incorporates the colour of the tee you are printing on aswell - this might be an old thing not sure



I am inclined just to add some glycerin to my water based permaset white ink and pump that through the machine - it does a fab job with old skool printing

Anyhoo the kiosk I am looking at is a refurb shop machine and is only $15k Australian - not bad


----------



## Gunslinger

LOL ... hmmm, I guess I should have Barkone change the text on this for me ...


----------



## nakdtree

I was reading this thread thinking - wow - 1 1/2 years - white isn't easy, and it is more costly, so I charge more for it. I make money with white. Tjet 2 does a great job - with proper maintenance, and attention to detail - it can be done. I was not told it was as easy as pie when I bought it, and I didn't expect it to be. If you want to wait for it to be easier to jump in, then wait, just don't be surprised if its a long wait.


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## HMD10

T-Jet Jumbo2 can't beat it.....


----------



## gsmj27

Hello everyone, instead of starting a new thread, perhaps some of the more experienced DTG printer users here could advise which DTG printer would do best to print white ink on navy blue & black t-shirts.

I ask only because 90% of my business will be printing fire department station t-shirts where a good white base-coat will be needed to ensure the station logos will come out and most back graphics are white.

I'm looking at a T-Jet 2 or Blazer Express and have a budget of about 20k max.

Your input is greatly appreciated.

Thanks!


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## gsmj27

Bump... come on folks, help me out!


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## sunnydayz

Most machines are capable of the same white output as most are based on the epson based printheads. The only other current white ink printer out there right now that is not epson based is the Kornit. Also brother has their version of white ink printer coming out soon to the market, they are in production right now, and you are able to get samples from them.

As far as all the epson based printers, you should be able to get good results from any of them. The only real differences on them as far as print quality is the rip software they use, and the different adjustments you can make with the rip. So I would look at what features you like best about a machine, and which ones make it easier for you to operate, as you can get similar quality from each epson based printer.


----------



## gsmj27

Thanks for the reply! I've been looking at the T Jet 2 and maybe even the Blazer Express, which I've learned are both basically Epson 1800 and 4800 respectively (I think..).

But my worry is that having no experience in DTG that I might be missing out on another brand completely. I'm a very thorough person so I've been doing a lot of research - but there's no substitute for first hand experience.

Other recommendations?


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## DAGuide

If you want something to read, check this out - www.multirip.com/dtg101.pdf. This should keep you busy for a while and give you a good solid foundation of information. There are also links to a lot of the different printers. 

Best wishes with your research,

Mark


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## sunnydayz

Its good to be thorough in research as once that decision is made, well you know what they say haha. I myself have the HM1 and love it. This is a good thread right here that is strictly machine owners points of view http://www.t-shirtforums.com/direct-garment-dtg-inkjet-printing/t41520.html, I dont know if you have read that one, but its a good insight into what machines are out there.

There are also a couple of new machines coming out too such as the mod 1 and the viper. Both look very interesting. Is there any chance you can go to a printwear show such as ISS or NBM? That way you would be able to see them all in action at one place. Its a really great way to see all the machines at once  The main thing is to do much much research, and learn everything there is to know before you purchase instead of learning after


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## sunnydayz

Mark thanks so much for posting that link. Just as I was posting my reply, I thought I should have also added Marks article, and I posted and tada, there it was as you posted the same time as me haha


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## gsmj27

Thanks for all the replies! I live in Houston, are there any shows coming near hear any time soon?


I read than entire thread yesterday and I downloaded that .pdf last night. I read through it but I guess I'm still lacking the classic "a" vs. "b" comparison to help better determine what I need.

I do appreciate all the feedback. I'm a pretty avid forum user so I'm hoping I can eventually contribute back to this one as well once I get the business going.


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## DAGuide

The next closest show to you is the NBM Ft. Worth in early May. Check out www.nbmshows.com.

The problem with comparing A to B is that different printers will be better for one company's business model compared to another. The best thing you can do is write a business plan, understand the basics (i.e. white ink vs. CMYK, understand the pretreatment process and maintenance involved, know what the largest print size you want to do,...) and then go to a trade show where you can see all the machines at once. Have each printer that you are interested in make a sample print for you. Then take them home and do a wash test to see which one looks best for you. You would be best to contact the companies in advance that you want a sample from and let them know you are bringing your own graphic so they can setup enough time for you. This way you can see all the RIP / driver steps. If you can get a demo on pretreating shirts, take it. Don't under-estimate the art of pretreating. Also ask for them to show you how to do the maintenance on the printer. In the end, get some first-hand training by the company that sells you the printer... including if it requires you to travel to their location. It will be well worth it in the long-run.

Just my opinions. Best wishes.

Mark


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## vctradingcubao

Hey Mark, I wonder if it's possible to get some opinion from you, since we're talking about a DTG printer for dark shirt: (without thinking about every other person's business model being different from one another)

*What is your opinion of the Kornit 932NDS as being the best DTG printer for dark shirts?*

(I realize it would be a different case for everybody, but the Kornit being so expensive makes you think that "it's only geared for one kind of business model", anyway)


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## gsmj27

DAGuide said:


> The next closest show to you is the NBM Ft. Worth in early May. Check out www.nbmshows.com.


This this solid advice that will be taken. Thanks!


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## DAGuide

Byron,

Because of the price, this printer is really for those companies that already have the business and are looking at switching to a different type of application (i.e. screen printing to dtg). You are also going to need to have a large amount of space to hold the printer and the dryer.

Based on the past experiences with several people that owned a Kornit, you really need to have a group of people that are going to have a hands-on approach for tech support. When it is running right, it is a good printer and the cost of ink is hard to ignore. The trick that I have heard the most about that printer is that it can be a challenge to keep all the parameters set in the "sweet spot" for top performance. It is my understanding the interlacing software is helping in some areas. You also have to plan on more time spent on artwork compared to other printers based on the way the RIPs work.

The common statement I give when it comes to the Kornit is... if you are going to drop that amount of money, you should be prepared to get at least 2 people trained on how to do everything on that printer. Then as you come across things, create your own shop manual for other employees. You are bound to lose employees over time and there is just no way that you can always be present to fix something. With tech support, your location is going to be key. If you don't have people that can thoroughly support you in your time zone, then you might have to wait till people are available in Isarel. That could lead to additional downtime and large phone bills.

Just some things to think about.

Mark

P.S. Just heard Kornit came out with a hat platen. Not sure if it will be on display in Long Beach for the ISS Show.


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## VAGELAS

Are the cartridge systems better than the bottle systems ? I am looking at the FREEJET 320TX and the DREAMJET 800 ? ANYONE HAVE ANY INPUT ON THESE ?


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## nyx567

Any updates to what is the best Dtg printer for dark shirts, any new amazing technology come out.


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## vctradingcubao

nyx567 said:


> Any updates to what is the best Dtg printer for dark shirts, any new amazing technology come out.


There's this new Kornit 921 Breeze printer, and there's also the new Brother GT-782. Both machines uses white inks and both can print on dark shirts.


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## TahoeTomahawk

It's been said many times, Best is an opinion. Some people would choose the Kornit due to it's speed although many other small format printers can produce better small details and colors.

I personally would never buy a Kornit after seeing their printers in action at the show. The samples they printed are the same shirts we throw out as rejects due to their grainy appearance.


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## Blazed T

I brought several samples(1 white, 2 dark) home from the ISS show in Long Beach. A couple from Neoflex and one from M&R Idot. Funny, the white shirt printed on the Neoflex lost some color, while the other two samples that were VIBRANT white (dragon) on black and the other fire yellows, oranges and reds (a flaming skull) on black. Both black shirts faded a bit, but the prints were still vibrant! And I didn't turn it inside out, delicate wash and all the other crap your supposed to do to keep the print from failing. Anyone used Absolute Ink? Met Wade at the ISS show, and he seemed very confident his inks work and are a fraction of Duponts. He also sells a pretreatment. Of course all the manufacturers are fast to pull the warranty if you use anything but Dupont inks


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