# why buy a DTG that does not pre treat on board?



## eagleact (Aug 3, 2010)

I understand the kornit is VERY expensive but it seems to me pretreating during production is a huge advantage.

Other than cost why would someone buy a DTG that does not pre treat as it prints?

I could see an argument that while the Kornit is pre-treating other DTG's are focused on printing. However to me the extra handling, mess, etc. of a seperate pre treat machine is not worth it.

I see a lot of favorable opions of the neo-flex on this board. Certinaly the DTG battle winner is impressive. I also see the new pre-treat machine that is open and only treats the area needed for the print. that seems a lot better to me.

Thanks.
Brent


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## EricDeem (May 7, 2011)

I think you answered your own question. It's a matter of expense more than anything else, but I think we will see white ink that will no longer require pretreat as the industry matures. Remember guys we are still in V1.0 as far as I am concerned and advances in ink and printers will definitely occur and is occurring. This is the fastest growing segment of the garment industry and the most exciting and I am glad to be part of it.


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## treefox2118 (Sep 23, 2010)

I expect to see a major garment supplier come out with pre-treated cotton garments in 2013 for only $0.80 more per shirt. This will solve the pretreatment issue going forward.


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## rlaubert (Aug 14, 2011)

From a business stand point cost of production is a major concern as it determines profit.

To pay for an expensive machine just because it can do more than one thing at a time doesn't make since in a lot of cases. For example, if 80 percent of your work is white or light colors would it make sense? If the cost is 2 x what the individual costs would be, does it make sense? What about breakdown of one part, does the whole machine go out of production? There are a lot of reasons for a business to not consider one piece of equipment over another. But cost will always be a factor.


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## Smalzstein (Jul 22, 2008)

In a long production run, having seperate pretreating machine makes the process a bit faster (but you will require more labor). 

Also in my expierience prints with cured pretreatment look a bit nicer (Dupont versus Kornit).


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## TahoeTomahawk (Apr 12, 2006)

I was never impressed with the print quality of Kornits due to the fact that the pre-treat is not dried, which causes the fibers to stand up.


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## eagleact (Aug 3, 2010)

Thanks to everyone that have replied to my post. A few notes /questions to those that have replied....

Cost of production is absolutely important. I meant cost of the machine (which in reality also matters obviously...)

Cost of production is one of the main reasons I am considering kornit since they claim their ink cost is so much cheaper. Is that true?

Pretreated shirts sounds like a disaster waiting to happen considering all the pretreat problems people seem to have on this forum. Maybe not.

White ink with no pre-treatment. That would be the utopia. Every year for the last 10 years, I have said that I would buy a DTG in 5 years...Maybe I will wait again for that next generation!

I am mainly buying the DTG for colors. For white shirts we would sublimate (wide format printer so the cost as minimal).

Thanks.


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## GraphicGuy (Dec 8, 2008)

eagleact said:


> I am mainly buying the DTG for colors. For white shirts we would sublimate (wide format printer so the cost as minimal).


 Dye sub would only work with poly shirts. I never get customers who want poly only shirts.


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## EricDeem (May 7, 2011)

Poly only is typically just for Athletic performance apparel. The poly wicks moisture from the skin to the outside of the garment so it can evaporate faster.


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## eagleact (Aug 3, 2010)

Poly is not just for performance any more! It's every where.
We sell an absolute ton of it.


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## Smalzstein (Jul 22, 2008)

On newer there is an automatic squegge that flattens the fibers. I actualy been playing about an hour on Kornit avalanche on a trade show and I must say that this system really works. And we were printing on crappy fiberish stedman tshirts.


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## TahoeTomahawk (Apr 12, 2006)

Smalzstein said:


> On newer there is an automatic squegge that flattens the fibers. I actualy been playing about an hour on Kornit avalanche on a trade show and I must say that this system really works. And we were printing on crappy fiberish stedman tshirts.


IMO it doesn't do nearly as good of a job as a heat-pressed shirt prior to printing. Nearly all of the printers at the show had better print quality than the Kornits. It depends on your preference and customers. Some customers prefer soft hand, if you have to put alot more ink down to cover filibration, that's a problem. If your customers are picky and like very tight detailed designs, you may have a problem.

If you're worried about production time you can always pre-treat the shirts and dry them in batches through a conveyor dryer. Then do a quick 8 second press prior to hooping the shirt. That will give you a nice print surface.


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## Nonnie 24 (Apr 18, 2010)

eagleact said:


> Poly is not just for performance any more! It's every where.
> We sell an absolute ton of it.


I totally agree with you. Lately, about 80% of my customers are asking for moisture-wicking polos as well as t-shirts. This is no problem for embroidery, but on colored t-shirts, what is the best method of decorating so that you still get the stretch factor from the fabric? Hardly anyone wants white poly shirts. Any suggestions?


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## SickPuppy (Aug 10, 2009)

I thought someone was testing white ink that does not require pretreating


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## Smalzstein (Jul 22, 2008)

Azon tried to push discharge but they never got much sucess with it.


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## BandPrints (Feb 4, 2007)

"Pretreated shirts sounds like a disaster waiting to happen considering all the pretreat problems people seem to have on this forum. Maybe not."


I think that you will find the people on the forums with pretreat problems have not been trained properly or have not yet gotten the perfect hang of it. There is a learning curve if using a wagner but with an auto-pretreater is much more steady. Also, many times people head to the forums to solve issues so you will read about a lot of issues when the people that are producing are behind the machines with it working.

Pretreating for us is no issue and we enjoy making sure the pretreat is just right. When doing it right we are able to cut our ink usage by 20-25% on the white base and produce good prints.


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## justin_86 (Jun 24, 2008)

Personally I love the kornits all in one.
We had an Epson dtg brand printer and it may have given slightly sharper prints but was horribly inconsistent and I dreaded printing a 50 shirt run on it.

Our Kornit storm 2 so far has been much more reliable and I get consistent prints, also there is no down time since one pallet prints while the other is spraying.

We have only had the machine 3-4 months and I have around 7500 prints on the counter. 
I also find the ink stretches a lot more then the DuPont ink without cracking.


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## Smalzstein (Jul 22, 2008)

The storm is the high end model right ? That was always my opinion that high end kornits are great but the entry level sucks.


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