# Best Automatic Press??



## bcarr17 (Oct 26, 2012)

Hey guys I am looking at getting into the screen printing business and am looking at automatic presses. What is considered the best automatic press out there?

Thanks


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## headfirst (Jun 29, 2011)

Have you ever printed before?


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## bcarr17 (Oct 26, 2012)

I have not printed before. we are starting a print shop. we outsource over 100K per year and have finally decided to do it in house. we are going to get an automatic and a manual any input into what kind would be appreciated


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## headfirst (Jun 29, 2011)

M&R makes the best presses on the planet, both manual and automatic. They aren't cheap though.


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## bcarr17 (Oct 26, 2012)

you just made my day. that is what I was leaning towards. I was also looking at the Sroque


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## TCT (Mar 14, 2008)

I think a lot of this answer has to do with your budget. "Entry level" presses, I would agree M&R probably takes the cake. S.Roque doesn't make a "entry level" press per say, what I mean is they don't exactly make a press to compete on the Dimondback/Horizion/Javlin scope. Their most basic press is comprable to the next step up in presses. When you start talking mid level and high end presses, M&R can defenatly hang, but in my opinion not the _Best Automatic_ like you had asked.

I do think you would have a hard time finding someone that has issues with M&R's service though. It always seems to get great praise.

S.Roques are awesome machines though. Very well put together and thought out extremely well. Smooooooth operators!


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## dvineci (Feb 25, 2011)

If you're just starting...M&R Sportsmans and go from there...


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## ericsson2416 (Aug 29, 2007)

Going through the process of getting an auto now. My suggestion is call and make contact with a couple people from each manufacturer or dealer you plan to buy from. Yes, they can be like used car salesmen, but the more you work with them the more they will try to help you out with better price, options, accessories, etc.


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## macmiller (Jul 23, 2007)

M&R does make great presses, I have a 6/6 Sidewinder. However, if you're in the "entry level" market, you need to look at an Anatol Titan. I've had one for a month now and wish I'd have done it sooner. I'm not sure there really is a "bad" auto, at least out of the main brands and if you're talking about new ones. Just from my homework, I've found things about each press that make the Titan a winner for me. I'm no expert on autos and I could be wrong about some this, but here goes: 

D'Backs can't turn off the chopper cylinders on any head you're not printing on, so you're getting wear and tear on cylinders that aren't used. I'd be willing to bet that not having a squeegee/floodbar in it is even worse, as it will just be slapping the seals at full force. The revolver program is nice, but it'd be nicer if the shirts didn't have to go around twice. My press is a 7/8 w/ servo drive. Anatol's w/ servo have the "Step Back" feature that prints, flashes and returns for the second hit, not as fast as 2 white screens, but still has to be faster than waiting for all the white to come around before you start adding colors.

Javelin/Freedom: For a long time I thought this would be the press I'd own, mainly because there are tons of used ones around. I've never used the v-squeegee but I can see disadvantages to it, not to mention it looks like a bear to clean. And just the overall press technology screams 1970's but with a 2013 price tag. If it were $12-$14k like it's technology suggests, I'd have bought one. I've heard the Flashback is painfully slow.

Anatol is all very intuitive touch screen contol, unused heads are off, with no air delivered to them until activated, and the thing runs like a Swiss watch! Many people are scared about their customer service, and I was leery before I really got serious about buying one, but a contract printer I use sells Anatol equipment and also owns two of their presses. He's knows them almost as well as the engineers in Poland who build them, and runs them everyday so he really knows how to use and work on them. Add to the fact he's only about 5 miles from me. All that really eased my mind in the purchase.


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## TCT (Mar 14, 2008)

ericsson2416 said:


> Going through the process of getting an auto now. My suggestion is call and make contact with a couple people from each manufacturer or dealer you plan to buy from. Yes, they can be like used car salesmen, but the more you work with them the more they will try to help you out with better price, options, accessories, etc.


This is a good idea, I would take it a step farther and call up or better yet visit shops that have the kind of press you are thinking about. You will also get much more honest answers if you are not accompanied by a sales rep. I would HEAVILY suggest this if you are looking at a certain _red_ press....

You can contact me if you like, I have spent a bit of time around MHM's(though never actually ran one). We run a S.Roque and(although I am embarrassed to say it) a anatol. I have worked on a M&R but not for more than 6 hrs. total, so my experience there is minimal at best.


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## bcarr17 (Oct 26, 2012)

do you guys think it is best to start out with a manual AND automatic or just a manual?


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## macmiller (Jul 23, 2007)

Manual first. In my opinon, you need to know how to print in order to understand what a print is doing on an auto. Since you don't have your hands in an auto, you need to understand what it's doing, and when something isn't right, how to fix it. Pressures, speed, etc. are much more controllable on an auto, but if you haven't printed manually, it's a lot harder to gauge where you need to be. It's as much "feel" as it is visual.


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## bcarr17 (Oct 26, 2012)

thank you mac for the opinion


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## MimosaTexas (Oct 31, 2010)

macmiller said:


> D'Backs can't turn off the chopper cylinders on any head you're not printing on, so you're getting wear and tear on cylinders that aren't used.


This is not true as of 5+ years ago. Certainly something to be aware of when buying older used models, but not relevant when purchasing new.

If you have the funds and plan on buying both a manual and an auto, I would buy M&R over any other brand. The three main reasons would be:


Compatibility. If you buy M&R for both presses you will have a cohesive system of equipment. You will save money by not needing different screens, peripherals, parts, etc. You will save time because setting up jobs on either press will be identical which means you can do one off sampling on the manual then move the screens to the auto for production with minimal setup time. With tri-loc pre press and side clamps on the manual you will have basically pre-registered jobs regardless of press.
Service. M&R has hands down the best service out there. You will hear this from basically everyone who owns an M&R and it is a big reason why they are the industry leader when it comes to autos.
Resale. Eventually if your business is successful you will want to upgrade. M&R presses seem to hold their value better than every other brand, which will make transitioning to a bigger and better press more economical in the long run.
When it comes to strictly buying a manual, I actually think the vastex 2000hd would be my first choice for features and price, and there are autos with features and price points that make them a better deal than M&R depending on your needs, but when it comes to planning for the future of my business I want to save time and money in the long term and invest in a company will longevity and support. M&R just seems like a no brainer in that regard. Obviously, your current needs and financing will determine what route you take, and we have a large mix of brands in our shop that work fine for us, but we have pieced up to our current setup slowly.


I also STRONGLY second everyone else saying you should buy a manual and learn to print on it first. You have a million things to learn before you understand what you will need in an auto.


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## DNeeld (Sep 8, 2010)

macmiller said:


> D'Backs can't turn off the chopper cylinders on any head you're not printing on, so you're getting wear and tear on cylinders that aren't used. I'd be willing to bet that not having a squeegee/floodbar in it is even worse, as it will just be slapping the seals at full force. The revolver program is nice, but it'd be nicer if the shirts didn't have to go around twice. My press is a 7/8 w/ servo drive. Anatol's w/ servo have the "Step Back" feature that prints, flashes and returns for the second hit, not as fast as 2 white screens, but still has to be faster than waiting for all the white to come around before you start adding colors.


Not being able to turn off the chopper cylinders on unused heads hasn't been true for at least two years. As for the revolver program, its not like the step back feature is any faster at all. The time saved or lost using either method isn't even a point worth considering.

As to the OP, if you've never printed before and have the funds for it, just start with an auto. You won't learn anything printing on a manual that is necessarily going to make the transition to an auto any easier. 90% of your learning curve is going to come from pre-press situations. And with proper training on the auto (which the manufacturer should provide), there really isn't any golden knowledge that you'll miss out on printing on a manual.

As for which press to purchase, the most bang for your buck will come from Anatol. But there is truly a reason they are the cheapest entry level available and you'll run into some service issues a little sooner than you would with some other brands.


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## macmiller (Jul 23, 2007)

I stand corrected, thanks.


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## Punky24 (Aug 13, 2013)

I partnered with my friend's screen printing company this year and our Anatol Titan press just hit 350K prints and hasn't even blinked. We loved it so much that we just bought the Horizon and it just started running this week. 

We haven't had a single issue and it's clear these machines were designed for volume and quality. Don't have any experience with M&R presses, but have been blown away with what we've been able to accomplish with the Titan.

Customer service is excellent as well, hear from them on weekends if I call or email. Let me know you if you're interested and I will put you in touch with our Rep!

Punky


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## alan802 (Mar 24, 2008)

I learned how to print on an auto and I turned out fine. It actually made me a better manual printer. I was able to jump on a manual press with no experience from my time on the auto. There is nothing to learn by starting on a manual that you can't/won't learn on the auto. You need to learn everything leading up to putting the screens on press before you do anything, mesh count, tension, developing stencils, EOM, the list goes on. Putting the screens on the press and printing is the easy part. If you don't do things correctly before the printing stage, you'll never achieve your goals as a print shop. The only thing I'd recommend doing is use the push stroke on the manual where the auto will use a pull stroke. The push stroke needs human feedback to achieve a proper ink deposit and the auto doesn't push stroke well. You can set up an auto to push as I have before but it's a pain in the A and it doesn't give you a superior print like a push stroke on the manual will do. Plus the push stroke is much easier on your body over long print runs and long days.

My opinion on the best "affordable" auto is probably a challenger 3 by M&R, the MHM E & S type, RPM Revolution, MHM X type or extreme models and the Sroque machines look great. The M&R sportsman would be a great option for you because you are just starting out and having M&R behind you going forward is very assuring that you'll never be left stranded. The sportsman is a mid range auto at a mid level price comparable to the RPM, MHM E type, Anatol Stratus, Sroque in price and performance but there are a lot of differences in what is considered bells and whistles. A machine that lacks those bells and whistles is not an inferior machine by any means, it's going to be more simple to operate and learn on, less parts for wear and tear but might also lack a few printer friendly or "cool" features that can make operating an auto somewhat fun. Some manufacturers will bend over backwards to sell you a machine then once they've got your money and the machine is installed, they are much harder to get ahold of. M&R is not one of those companies and their history of service and support after the sale is so far and above their competition that if someone tries to argue that they are as good as M&R then stop listening to them right then and walk away. I've been a little critical of some mid level autos that lack features and bells and whistles in the past but more in the sense that I think they could build an affordable mid level auto that blew us all away with features if they set their sights on doing it. But sometimes simple, reliable and robust is the best approach and who am I to tell someone how to build an auto, I'm just a screen printer. 

One particular press manufacturer has the worst after sale support and service and over the last few years they've been an embarrassment to our industry but who knows, maybe they'll turn it around but I doubt it since it's been bad for many, many years and they know about it.

If your budget limits you to entry level autos and you want to buy new, then just go buy an M&R Diamondback with servo indexer, get the right mesh counts for an air operated print head and get after it. I personally don't like dealing with entry level machines and would look for a good used auto that someone is getting rid of because they didn't make it in the business. M&R's have high resale value so they will cost you more and there aren't many used MHM's or RPM's out there because of several reasons I won't get into and then there are the used autos that shops are getting rid of because they are a problem. Stay away from those 15-20 year old machines if your a new shop with zero experience with them. Experienced shops that have run those 90's machines can buy them and make tons of money, but you will more than likely not be able deal with a quirky machine and learn how to print at the same time, recipe for disaster. Don't make it any harder on yourself than this already is. Don't buy someone else's problem. 

And then there is the problem of the used equipment broker...there are some really good guys out there that will give what they promised, but unfortunately there are more bad brokers than there are good ones so be cautious, do your homework and research. Not everything on the internet is true, especially on forums like this, but I can promise you if there is smoke, there is fire. If a broker is good, then there may be only one or two negative reviews with a lot more positive written about them. The bad brokers will have many more bad reviews than good and I know in general, be careful who you trust, but if 5-10 anonymous posters have bad things to say about a broker, I highly doubt all of them are conspiring to ruin a reputation and there is a solid and honest reason they choose to post negative comments about that broker. It's not always the case but most of the time forum posters aren't making things up, but it has happened where a broker did a deal with an unrealistic customer and no way they could satisfy them and they get a negative review but those cases are rare.


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## binkspot (Jun 12, 2013)

Not to take away from Allen but we started with an auto also. There was a huge learning curve but we would have had to learn the manual otherwise. Either way it works. I do think a manual is a key part of any shop. I have two that collect a lot of dust but when needed they are an invaluable tool. We can do stuff on them we couldn't easily do on the auto.


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## MimosaTexas (Oct 31, 2010)

The main reason to learn on a manual isn't that you can't learn the same pre-press stuff with an auto, but that you won't have the hands on experience of how all of the pre-press stuff effects the print. You aren't separated from the experience by a machine that has been engineered to simplify or limit many of the small decisions you make when manually printing. 

Financially, there are two reasons to start on a manual. First, it is also a huge investment for someone without any experience in the field. There are a whole lot of different options when it comes to choosing an auto and without knowing what you will want and need for your business, you may kick yourself in the future for purchasing the wrong machine for your market/style/etc. Second, it is a hell of a lot easier to mess up a hell of a lot of shirts on an auto than it is on a manual. Again, you are one step removed from the process and may miss something small on the auto that would be obvious as you print manually.

I'm not saying you can't make the leap to auto right off the bat, but it makes a lot more sense to invest less time and money to learn the basics on a manual than it does to spend a ton of money and not understand simple parts of the process that can lead to some costly mistakes and frustration on an auto.


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## Sdri (Sep 22, 2012)

I have the printex hurricane. 80k impressions since April . No issues love it. Easy to learn. Lots of fine tuning capabilities and I can easily run 440 multicolored tees solo or 670 with unloaded and folder. My dryer actually slows me. My next purchase will be a bigger dryer


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