# Project: Sublimation coating emulsion / Cotton print



## deathknight (Jan 20, 2013)

Hello guys,

3 months ago, i started to build my own projects about textile printing. My first project have built dtg based custom t-shirt printer and i' ve successfully finished it before, also i r&d about using standart pigment inks over cotton then coat it with special formula. Then i realize that what if i try it in sublimation ?

So around 2 month spent of some experiments at last i success to sublimation for cotton. Progress quiet easy before you go, you are printing your design mirror standart sublimation print with sublimation ink and sublimation paper; after that prepare your cotton surface for pre-coat, spray over cotton then it need to be cure to fix between cotton and chemical. I' m using blow dryer or electric heater to cure it. After that you need to press your printed paper under heat press, i'm going with 180c degrees and 1 minutes at 3.5 psi bar. Yet at this point sublimation work completed but like this method it didn' t go so well for extra washes it will fade quickly in time... so you can spray some more chemical over printed cotton so it seal printing both down and upside.

At this picture you can see top print is not washed, 2 prints at bottom washed 3 times at 30c degree 

Now i will check formula stability for 1 2 weeks then i will begin to sell it on


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## charles95405 (Feb 1, 2007)

if one understands the sublimation process you can see why true " sublimation on cotton" is a myth.. sublimation process actually bonds to the polyester fibers... it will not bond to cotton. using sublimation inks on cotton is just a transfer sitting on top of the garment and will not stay.


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## deathknight (Jan 20, 2013)

Exactly, i'm textile technician and i can say same. There are two kind fibers sentetic and natural fibers. So sublimation is works on sentetic that absorb gas formed ink. Yes you can do same tactic on natural fibers but you will see faded print over it and also it can' t be stable on fibers, it will gone away very quickly even first washes. So you need a special progress like me to coat over natural fibers that hold sublimation ink over, in that cause inks paint over coated material and coating fixing via fibers; at least i can explain like this


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## charles95405 (Feb 1, 2007)

good luck to you....I just don't buy in to your process...


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## deathknight (Jan 20, 2013)

As you wish; you are free about that  I never push for that.


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## Riderz Ready (Sep 18, 2008)

Realize the content of your post has been posted dozens and dozens of time in the past and will be posted dozens of times after yours by people convinced you can create professional results on cotton. 

Bottom line is the skepticism is based on every single of one of these being nothing more than a dream and shortly after the dream turns into reality and poster disappears into the shadows.


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## deathknight (Jan 20, 2013)

I know only reality that progress working very well, results going perfectly satisfied and prices of course


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## baddjun1 (Aug 5, 2009)

Always thought that sublimation was for synthetics, but you seem convinced that you have invented a new technology. Test for a couple of months and keep us informed.


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## charles95405 (Feb 1, 2007)

Riderz has been in this business a long time and pretty well versed...I have been doing sublimation since 1997...but what do we know...If you want to do cotton..go with chromablast...better than what is proposed in this thread


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## deathknight (Jan 20, 2013)

Guys i'm a old one for textile too. I' ve been educated for general textile in my school life also; i've worked so many branch of printing, screen print-direct print-transfer print-sublimation print.

Of course there are several methods for coatings; i tried too many of them from china, malaysia etc around world, also some of in my country turkey. But they didn' t go well, i'm not a chemistry expert but i understood that they using wrong crosslink material on formula. It gives to me too hard working, in time i' ve tried many same oponent but their characteristic spesifics are different.

I can explain that method i'm using is not so much difference thinking about direct print or screen print. I'm using similiar materials, in term you can call the name for water-based direct pigment print, i also used same way but no color abilities for chemical; so sublimation is pigment dispersion progress yet. Working about 2-3 months like i said; i successfully completed right amount ratio for each material to mix.

At least you can take possible results with matching on direct printing. So you don't mess with extra screens for each color.

I'm now starting for mixture on dark germants to and yes i tried somethings, i can say it gives idea to work within


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## Riderz Ready (Sep 18, 2008)

Wait so now not only can we dye sub on cotton but also dark garments? 

I would walk over to Sawgrass and license your technology as you would become an instant multi millionaire.

RADISHES


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## deathknight (Jan 20, 2013)

Yes maybe in time; there is no certain thing right now but same formula usage with white pigment colored base. I already tried some of them but yet not clear to work with right ratio.

It will give results in near future.


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## skdave (Apr 11, 2008)

It's the same old song with different singer. After you master the dark shirts, please start on cancer.


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## Riderz Ready (Sep 18, 2008)

skdave said:


> It's the same old song with different singer. After you master the dark shirts, please start on cancer.


I nominate this for post of the month.


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## skdave (Apr 11, 2008)

Mark, I just saw a new shirt that I create. Color sleeves and neck rib, black, red, navy blue, made of cotton and white awesome polyester front and back panel, Feels awesome I will print and post on Monday. No white folds, hopefully.


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## Riderz Ready (Sep 18, 2008)

skdave said:


> Mark, I just saw a new shirt that I create. Color sleeves and neck rib, black, red, navy blue, made of cotton and white awesome polyester front and back panel, Feels awesome I will print and post on Monday. No white folds, hopefully.


Interested - not for all over but for and add on to our jerseys. Any idea on cost? We are doing a custom backpack. First prototype went well. Doing the second one over the weekend - will also post if it comes together correctly. 

As cool as it is the only thing that will really change things up is a true dye sub sock. The good news is the largest dye sub specialty apparel company in this country is committed to make it happen. I see nothing but green for the company that pulls it off. Just in our little niche in the world we would sell a ton of these. The diverse market for true custom socks printed professionally makes the cell phone cover market seem small in comparison.


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## deathknight (Jan 20, 2013)

We already produce huge amount production like that your mentioned. There are still production in turkey for that tactic, front part poly/cotton or %100 poly other parts full cotton. I can give you brand names like "WE" "ZARA" etc. 

I never used solvent based chemicals, even i'm not using formaldehit integrated fixer agents. All my materials water-based totally ecological for human safety. Maybe you all now waterbased screenprint progress and materials. My formula exactly uses same ingredients. 

Maybe you want to see some samples in future.

Yet i take new photo for my new prints. As you can see you can apply this progress on colorbased cotton products too, you now the progress that hold canvas color from background.


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## GordonM (May 21, 2012)

This is what you need to do: If your process really works and does what you say it does, stop posting to forums because you could give something away. IF it works, you could become rich, but only if you're smart about how you publicize it. Come up with your product first, find someone to sell it for you, and then show people what you've done. 

Unless what you're posting is all fake, you're going about it exactly the wrong way.


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## skdave (Apr 11, 2008)

Riderz Ready said:


> Interested - not for all over but for and add on to our jerseys. Any idea on cost? We are doing a custom backpack. First prototype went well. Doing the second one over the weekend - will also post if it comes together correctly.
> 
> As cool as it is the only thing that will really change things up is a true dye sub sock. The good news is the largest dye sub specialty apparel company in this country is committed to make it happen. I see nothing but green for the company that pulls it off. Just in our little niche in the world we would sell a ton of these. The diverse market for true custom socks printed professionally makes the cell phone cover market seem small in comparison.


 
I think we have it Mark, a very nice sock, just the right thickness and prints perfect. see pic's


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## skdave (Apr 11, 2008)

deathknight said:


> We already produce huge amount production like that your mentioned. There are still production in turkey for that tactic, front part poly/cotton or %100 poly other parts full cotton. I can give you brand names like "WE" "ZARA" etc.
> 
> I never used solvent based chemicals, even i'm not using formaldehit integrated fixer agents. All my materials water-based totally ecological for human safety. Maybe you all now waterbased screenprint progress and materials. My formula exactly uses same ingredients.
> 
> ...


 
Send me one I'll print and post results, if it works I will make you rich or you can donate the money to a charity of your choice.


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## pisquee (Jan 8, 2012)

How does the coating feel to touch/to wear as a shirt. Is it heavy, does it feel like a plastic sticker on the cotton?


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## deathknight (Jan 20, 2013)

GordonM said:


> This is what you need to do: If your process really works and does what you say it does, stop posting to forums because you could give something away. IF it works, you could become rich, but only if you're smart about how you publicize it. Come up with your product first, find someone to sell it for you, and then show people what you've done.
> 
> Unless what you're posting is all fake, you're going about it exactly the wrong way.


Man if you understanding capacity of read post subject, it named "project: sublimation coating emulsion"; ok ?

I have finished my r&d works newly and done my washing tests. I'm showing you people to see how it works, there is no harm in this i think but you are coming with aggresive progression, if you have a more good way to use then go ahead use it don't give dirty in my topic please...

And yes i will be start to sell my product in 2 or 3 weeks. I'm now prapare for manufacture needing cause i used all my time for only test ratio usage until now.

@pisquee feeling not bad my friend, if you ever used ready to print plastic papers for sublimation you already know their plasticy hard surface feeling, my production not feels like that it only gives you too little difference with original cotton. I'm wearing my demo t-shirts for 1 month, it's really good to wear, there is no unconfortable thing yet it's long range applicatable usage you can adjust soft ability by spray. More lower usage give super good softness but there will be bad washing ability in time more higher usage gives slightly feeling touch and superfast ability on wash like 40c degree but you can sure about that it will never give plastic effect feeling of ready to use papers.

@skdave I can provide you sample in next weeks, don' t understand me wrongly, project ended nearly but still there is some tasks to check like manufactured product will be usable after it's first manufacture day. I'm now using same mixture everyday and checking their washing test again and again. I must do that cause there is need a proggress like this unless i do that and sell directly what will i say you if it fail, is it clearly true ? 

And we will try to contact with our local sellers firstly, in turkey big customers like ots digital they are selling j-tech's sublimation inks and coldenhove papers, some other more customer too; we will contact them of course...


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

deathknight said:


> Man if you understanding capacity of read post subject, it named "project: sublimation coating emulsion"; ok ?
> 
> I have finished my r&d works newly and done my washing tests. I'm showing you people to see how it works, there is no harm in this i think but you are coming with aggresive progression, if you have a more good way to use then go ahead use it don't give dirty in my topic please...
> 
> ...


From your comment ....

*"if you ever used ready to print plastic papers for sublimation you already know their plasticy hard surface feeling, my production not feels like that it only gives you too little difference with original cotton."*

You are way way off on this point.

There are papers that exist that are normally for use with pigment inks that after the first wash there is _no feeling_ and are wash durable. Some of these papers can be sublimated if one choses.

If you are intending to decorate a t-shirt that is not suitable for sublimation then the larger point is that why sublimate them at all? Why not just use pigment inks and a good quality transfer paper? Contrary to your statement these papers do exist, _just you are not aware of them_.

I don't decorate 100% cotton tshirts with pigment inks as they are too stretchy and are prone to "piling", but I have been making 50/50 poly/cotton pigment tshirts for many years successfully.

JPSS (Jet Pro Soft Stretch) paper specifically _will not have any feeling_ that you can detect after the first wash and will last the same usable life as a blank shirt will if it is applied correctly. AND if you put it on white 50/50 tshirts you can barely see any "window" if your design has open spaces and not a solid shape like a square or rectangle. The visibility of the window is only perceptible if you are up very close to the t-shirt and looking for it. _And after the first wash on whites the window that was barely visible before is gone._

I noticed in the picture of your ash gray t-shirt there is very dominate "window" in the areas you "prepped" but didn't print into. While JPSS will leave a undesirable "window" on non-whites, the paper can be cut in a vinyl cutter very accurately, hence no window on light colors.

You cannot "prep" and eliminate that "window" on colored tshirts.

For _digital_ printing you have only have these choices on non-whites to escape the "window".

1. Pure sublimation on high poly content t-shirts.
2. Pigment transfer and optical cutting.
3. DTG
4. Weed free transfer technology.

How about posting some _close-ups_ of product using your "invention"" on a white t-shirt with open white space in the design? Any window?

And your wash testing ... I hate to break the news but suggest you do at least 25 washes on a t-shirt before you can figure out if your process is wash durable. Pure sublimation or a pigment transfer using a transfer paper like JPSS can pass that test.

Another thing, I can assure you anyone familiar with pigment transfer technology using a top grade paper are being entertained by your posts ... sublimation and prep coating _is the wrong tool_ for 50/50 or 100% cotton t-shirts. We already have a better solution for that many years now.

Suggest you do some basic research on JPSS and pigment inks ... don't take my word on it.


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## deathknight (Jan 20, 2013)

I know very well your window looking visual, you cannot see that in this pic, cause coated emulsion goes all around coating surface no screenlike effect, applying it over by spray that circulate homogenically. Maybe taken photo's light angel gives shadows around if you want to see more ranged photo i can take them for you again.

Paper tecnology is another solution yet they giving you always touch hand feeling no metter how they are thin. They' re formal even if you cut them by plotter, at least there is a micron type layer will be on applied surface.

Of course i can' t explain all of my results before you see them with your own eyes but sure about that i tried to many solution to give me printing results. 

Yes man washing abilities important thing but you thing wrong about longer term stability, you do that only after your product fuctionality completely over and you do that for industrial selling. Even bigger textile companies enough with 3 or 5 circle wash.

Another ways, yes there are a lot; before starting this formula i tried other ways like begin to construct custom dtg printers etc and completed them too. But in here you must stop and think over it, people want to use it must have this printers and will use pigment inks also and yet pigment ink to much expensive or they always clogging problems for printhead. Thing about small workshop doing this, they will always want to cheaper solutions.

In here, they have some alternatives using print ready papers, blended polyester cloths, vynil cut etc and yes that gives you alternatives. My project is another solution way, it's a choise to use it there is some longer progress to apply it but gives wonderful results thinking of other printready tools.

I' m not telling you this is pure sublimation on cotton, it challanging sublimation standart progress with use alternate print over cotton.
So i tell you my products plus to other solutions:

-No plastic effect, only small amount touch for first time it will go away after washing.
-Adjustable color depth for more vivid or soft cloth feeling.
-Durable at 40c degree wash with applicated capacity.
-No block over cloth so your skin will breath in air.
-Confort of usage cotton products, you know you don' t want to wear poly tees in summer all day.
-Cheaper results
-Thinking of screenprint, same results yet you don' t need screen for every colors to print over and it costs you cheapest way even print on single product.
-No hazardous, no flammable materials, ecological, water-based


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## Riderz Ready (Sep 18, 2008)

Half the posts in these dye sub threads are from people hocking products or services whether it is done directly or indirectly to skate the rules. He is no different from many others on here.

Death - there is zero benefit you will receive trying to spar with people who know everything about everything. Just do your thing and when you get to the end share the results. If it turns out to be a bust so be it. Many have tried before you and many will try after you.


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## Riderz Ready (Sep 18, 2008)

How many other times have you scolded someone on this forum for trying to hock products and services to the unwise looking to make a buck? Why single this guy out from the many post that are constantly hocking services and wares? 

Never read anything he posted offering to sell his solutions to anyone one on this forum. If you think he is hocking his wares report it to Rodney. 

No one needs your scolding as it means zero. Should be more concerned about using your employers time to post on forums.

Do I think he has a viable solution? Not really but if everyone quit their dream because of naysayers where would we all be?


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

deathknight said:


> I know very well your window looking visual, you cannot see that in this pic, cause coated emulsion goes all around coating surface no screenlike effect, applying it over by spray that circulate homogenically. Maybe taken photo's light angel gives shadows around if you want to see more ranged photo i can take them for you again.
> 
> I can clearly see a "window" in your ash gray tshirt, it is not lighting, the symetrical rectangle shape is obvious, it cannot be from a light angle.
> 
> ...


Nothing you have mentioned is something that we cannot achieve already with a high quality transfer paper and pigment inks. Except your process involves applying a coating, which means it has to be done in a very clean space occupying environment, while applying and drying. It must be controlled to keep out of areas outside your 'rectangle". It has to be controlled tightly for even application. It adds more time ($$) to make a shirt. It also likely involves intial setup and then clean up later.

JPSS has none of these issues, but all the benefits you are claiming. press 30 seconds, peel, repress 10 seconds ... done.

I marked up in your comments above.


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## ZO6 KLR (Jan 8, 2013)

skdave said:


> Mark, I just saw a new shirt that I create. Color sleeves and neck rib, black, red, navy blue, made of cotton and white awesome polyester front and back panel, Feels awesome I will print and post on Monday. No white folds, hopefully.


Monag has them. They had a three on display this weekend. Should see production soon.


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## deathknight (Jan 20, 2013)

@mgparrish

As i said before, i used so many companies paper products, they all standart results i tried so many you can' t imagine to know that be sure. I'm not pushing you to use my product if you happy with your paper then continue with your paper. And yes i know some other guys tried these method so i emulated to try what they do...

In result of that i tried likely materials from china, malaysia etc my point attention on here my main materials giving most good result over them because i'm using self-soft ability copolymer. If you knowledge about textile chemistry a little then you may know how many types of cross-link agents. For my secret experiment i can' t give you direct material names and i don't think you interesting with it also.

Last thing about your opion on rectangle shape visual, i let you think sprayed overlay; imagine half up half downside t-shirt then think that all half upper-side coated with emulsion, ok ? Now think about color change again if you can see difference up/down. You can see it only while you apply it over surface before it dried up. After it cure water goes away and you can't see nothing more cause there will be transparent color.

For ink usage i' ve many type for all other apply methods. I' m even use normal pigment ink with custom dtg, even used art paper ink. They can' t give matte visual brightness, only sublimation ink brights cause it's characteristical ability explodes over 130c degrees to burn until 210+ c degrees. If you say that normal pigment ink bright so be sure that it has glass-effect product under it like some bad paper solutions. In there there is no pigment color brightness it's material surface reflect light to see your eyes it's look like vivid.
Anyway i can explain you too many technical detail as you wish to want...

In reality i' m here with my project to show you people for my experiment and yes it's nearly done to usage it's last tests to go on... You may give to chance to use it or you can go your way what it makes you satisfied. 

Thanks.

Edit: And last attach for JPSS instructions, washing at cold water oh man is it enough to clean your dirty cloths really ? and other care things
Do NOT use fabric softener 
Dry at normal setting; do not dry clean
Bla bla blaa... I can tell you at least that poeple in my country puts directly their cloths to wash machine and set their temp up to 40c degrees put softener etc it goes away with.


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## ZO6 KLR (Jan 8, 2013)

I don't blame anyone for thinking outside the box and experimenting but when it all comes down to it but this horse died a long time ago. You cannot beat physics. It's almost like saying you have found a way to beat the casino at their own game. All this time is you invest in making a cotton t-shirt accept sublimation you might as well use poly. In essence you are trying to turn a cotton shirt to poly standards to accept the sublimation print, correct? Then why not just save time and resources and use poly? 

If you want a colorful, one-off, vibrant raster image on a 100% cotton t-shirt, DTG is the way to go and the Neoflex is your best bet. I don't represent Neoflex but what I've seen they tend yield the best results IMHO.


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## deathknight (Jan 20, 2013)

Anyway i'm little boring from absurd massages then i'm prefer to show more examples in time...

I will let you inform about news.

Going from here:


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## GordonM (May 21, 2012)

ZO6 KLR said:


> I don't blame anyone for thinking outside the box and experimenting but when it all comes down to it but this horse died a long time ago.


The color saturation of the samples in post 17 is exactly the kind I get when I print sublimation on 50/50 tees using Rachel's (Dyepress.com) poly spray, a product that's already on the market and sold through eBay and online. The black is weak, but the colors are acceptable. This same effect was noted in another thread where someone asked about subbing into JPSS.

I'd say the horse isn't dead yet ("I'm not dead yet!"), but it's getting on in age! 

As I said in the poster's other thread about this process, in the end it comes down to application time and labor. It takes time and therefore costs money to spray these shirts. I bought samples of Rachel's poly coat, and they work pretty much as advertised. But I get better results using JPSS and pressing properly, and at about 55 cents a sheet, is more economical.

Those in the United States must remember this: If a garment is sold for use by someone 12 or under, you *MUST* account for any materials or chemicals added in the decoration process. No one is willing to tell you what's in these poly coat liquids, so they will not pass certification -- unless you want to pay a lab to independently certify the finished goods.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

deathknight said:


> @mgparrish
> 
> As i said before, i used so many companies paper products, they all standart results i tried so many you can' t imagine to know that be sure. I'm not pushing you to use my product if you happy with your paper then continue with your paper. And yes i know some other guys tried these method so i emulated to try what they do...
> 
> ...


Markups above.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

deathknight said:


> Anyway i'm little boring from absurd massages then i'm prefer to show more examples in time...
> 
> I will let you inform about news.
> 
> Going from here:


I'll post some JPSS pics later. Hate to break it to you but on your comment in your other post ...

"For ink usage i' ve many type for all other apply methods. I' m even use normal pigment ink with custom dtg, even used art paper ink. They can' t give matte visual brightness, only sublimation ink brights cause it's characteristical ability explodes over 130c degrees to burn until 210+ c degrees. If you say that normal pigment ink bright so be sure that it has glass-effect product under it like some bad paper solutions. In there there is no pigment color brightness it's material surface reflect light to see your eyes it's look like vivid.
Anyway i can explain you too many technical detail as you wish to want..."

If you are saying that what is in those photos is more vibrant than pigment ... I guess it must be the lighting in this case too? I'll post some JPSS later.


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## skdave (Apr 11, 2008)

ZO6 KLR said:


> Monag has them. They had a three on display this weekend. Should see production soon.


 
Yes Monag had them, they made them at my direction.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

deathknight said:


> Anyway i'm little boring from absurd massages then i'm prefer to show more examples in time...
> 
> I will let you inform about news.
> 
> Going from here:


Here's the 50/50 with JPSS and pigments.

[media]http://www.mgparrish.com/DSC_0344.jpg[/media]

The shirt is unwashed. The top is with a profile that was provided, the bottom transfer on the shirt is without the profile.

As you can see the bottom is more color accurate, the top image is more vibrant. The profile really wasn't necessary, the profile might be beneficial for someone that didn't want to adjust the image to boost the colors.

I didn't trim the transfers on purpose in order to judge the "window" effect, as you can see it shows some when first applied as it has a slight gloss. Once washed the window is gone and no hand.

I don't see the color advantage you illustrate with your posted photos.

This photo is untouched, I have posted it here in several different posts going back a couple of years, so I didn't create it just for this post.

If you read the inkjet transfer section here you will find many users having similar results as I describe.

It does require a very good heat press and some learning initially to apply, but once you dial in your press and process this is a very reliable and consistent paper.

The best case you could expect from any prep would only match or approach this quality, but what you are doing takes a lot more work and has all kind of issues with the prep attracting dust and fine debris as it will be very sticky while still wet and then some tackiness will remain for a while.

And you will _never_ solve the "window" problem on anything except whites, you cannot effectively or practically mask out to apply the prep to keep it out of open areas in the design. For those that have optical cutters, at least this stuff can be trimmed.


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## ZO6 KLR (Jan 8, 2013)

skdave said:


> Yes Monag had them, they made them at my direction.


Dave, I am glad to see a "hybrid" shirt like this. I've had a few customers ask about the raglan sleeve style. I am also glad to see that there are importer/manufacturers that listen to their customer base.


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## deathknight (Jan 20, 2013)

Hello guys again, yet another sample in here:


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## deathknight (Jan 20, 2013)

Hello i'm here again with my new printed sample, base stone color t-shirt.


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## skdave (Apr 11, 2008)

ZO6 KLR said:


> Dave, I am glad to see a "hybrid" shirt like this. I've had a few customers ask about the raglan sleeve style. I am also glad to see that there are importer/manufacturers that listen to their customer base.


 
Amit at Monag is a great guy, and a smart business man.


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## freebird1963 (Jan 21, 2007)

Thought this was a thread on Sub coating not skdaves latest shirt offering. ?

How does your process work compared to all the others that have offered this type of solution ? Is it a spray , a roll on , a dunk in a tub what ? Like to hear more. Alway rooting for the under dog.


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## deathknight (Jan 20, 2013)

It's working use with spray over surface and also in other hand i' m trying to right ratio for usage on screen-print too, so will work with paste method.

For spray, i'm now testing that it hold inks for under base coat if enough progress, otherwise progress going longer but seal print up/down gives superfastness abilities of course. Until now only under coating small fade effect for each turn of wash. I'm observing progress will tell you any new events.

Thanks.


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## freebird1963 (Jan 21, 2007)

deathknight said:


> It's working use with spray over surface and also in other hand i' m trying to right ratio for usage on screen-print too, so will work with paste method.
> 
> For spray, i'm now testing that it hold inks for under base coat if enough progress, otherwise progress going longer but seal print up/down gives superfastness abilities of course. Until now only under coating small fade effect for each turn of wash. I'm observing progress will tell you any new events.
> 
> Thanks.


Thanks for the info. Good luck.


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