# What is a Fair DTG Ink Cost? Let me know your thoughts!



## DAGuide (Oct 2, 2006)

A lot of people mention that they wish the cost for dtg inks were lower. This started a debate between myself and one other about what the price of ink should be. So I figured I would get some other people’s opinion about this. Below are five questions that I would like dtg owners to answer. Questions #2-4 are based on the industry standard print (12” x 14” medium coverage print). I would prefer this thread not to turn into a machine specific thread, but understand that some people prefer either a bulk or closed ink system and that might have an effect of the ink cost. Thus the reason for Question #1. So please copy and paste the questions below with your answers.

1. Type of ink system do you run - Closed vs. Bulk/Open Ink System?
2. What do you estimate is your current cost per a print of 12” x 14” graphic for CMYK print?
3. What is your desired cost per a print of 12” x 14” graphic for CMYK print?
4. What do you estimate is your current cost per a print of 12” x 14” graphic for CMYK+White (dark garment) print (if you do this type printing)?
5. What is your desired cost per a print of 12” x 14” graphic for CMYK+White (dark garment) print (whether you do this type of printing now or want to in the future)?

All responses are appreciated.

Mark


----------



## raise (Apr 11, 2008)

*Re: What is a Fair Ink Cost? Let me know your thoughts!*

1. Closed
2. $1.70 ink based on 80% coverage of the 12 x 14 inch area, double pass
3. $.60 ink
4. $3.36 ink, $.75 pretreatment
5. $1.75 ink, $.25 pretreatment

I'd really prefer that pretreatment was free and while that sounds unreasonable, the labor cost to pretreat shirts is what kills the bottom line. Adding a material cost to that just makes it worse and despite the limited application of it; it has been shown that pretreatment can be done as part of the printing process. Paying for material in that scenario is much more acceptable than having to wait for pretreatment to cure and babying the shirts until the printer is ready to accept them.

I have no idea if our ink costs are high compared to others but we do double pass on our CMYK prints to get the better vibrancy. While we used to save some ink by spending time tweaking the contrast and saturation, it wasn't time effective. We saw that we could get nearly the same results with less testing (assuming the print files themselves were decent) by just using a double pass.

Ink just shouldn't be expensive unless it does something special (puff, glow, metallic, etc). I could buy more ink and push sales more aggressively if I knew that I wasn't going to be killed when I had to do the inevitable comps and test prints. Yes, I could pass those costs onto the customer but this current financial environment is just not a good one to be charging additional fees in. The CMYK costs are workable but the white ink is just painful.


----------



## WholesalePrint (Sep 23, 2008)

*Re: What is a Fair Ink Cost? Let me know your thoughts!*

1. Closed
2. $1.29 F/C
3. As low as Possible
4. A Sad $4-$5
5. As low as $2 f/C


----------



## bornover (Apr 10, 2008)

These are estimates I came up with by an average cost calculating ink (per liter), pretreatment (per gallon) against total garments produced over a period of time. There are other DTG only costs that also add to the over all costs significantly on a daily bases like foam cleaning swabs (not cheap at all), coated and uncoated curing paper and syringes for ink management. These items are not included in my answers but do make DTG printing even more expensive.




DAGuide said:


> 1. Type of ink system do you run - Closed vs. Bulk/Open Ink System?


Bulk/Open system (Harry's to be exact)




DAGuide said:


> 2. What do you estimate is your current cost per a print of 12” x 14” graphic for CMYK print?


$1.97




DAGuide said:


> 3. What is your desired cost per a print of 12” x 14” graphic for CMYK print?


$0.50




DAGuide said:


> 4. What do you estimate is your current cost per a print of 12” x 14” graphic for CMYK+White (dark garment) print (if you do this type printing)?


$4.78




DAGuide said:


> 5. What is your desired cost per a print of 12” x 14” graphic for CMYK+White (dark garment) print (whether you do this type of printing now or want to in the future)?


$1.00


----------



## zhenjie (Aug 27, 2006)

1. Type of ink system do you run - Closed vs. Bulk/Open Ink System? Bulk Ink System (Equipmentzones)
2. What do you estimate is your current cost per a print of 12” x 14” graphic for CMYK print? Around $1-2USD for dual pass @ 720DPI
3. What is your desired cost per a print of 12” x 14” graphic for CMYK print? $1-2USD is reasonable
4. What do you estimate is your current cost per a print of 12” x 14” graphic for CMYK+White (dark garment) print (if you do this type printing)? $3-6USD plus pretreatment
5. What is your desired cost per a print of 12” x 14” graphic for CMYK+White (dark garment) print (whether you do this type of printing now or want to in the future)? $2-$4USD I think is reasonable. Would love not to pretreat as well (but I have Speedtreater which has helped immensely)


----------



## IYFGraphics (Sep 28, 2009)

DAGuide said:


> 1. Type of ink system do you run - Closed vs. Bulk/Open Ink System?


Bulk/Open - Equipment Zone



DAGuide said:


> 2. What do you estimate is your current cost per a print of 12” x 14” graphic for CMYK print?


$1.90



DAGuide said:


> 3. What is your desired cost per a print of 12” x 14” graphic for CMYK print?


$.75



DAGuide said:


> 4. What do you estimate is your current cost per a print of 12” x 14” graphic for CMYK+White (dark garment) print (if you do this type printing)?




$4.90




DAGuide said:


> 5. What is your desired cost per a print of 12” x 14” graphic for CMYK+White (dark garment) print (whether you do this type of printing now or want to in the future)?




$1.50

A lot of variables to consider, print resolution, number of passes of CMYK & Underbase.....and as stated the pretreatment and cleaning consumables, and as always lost ink do to maintenance.


----------



## sunnydayz (Jun 22, 2007)

Here are mine 

1. Type of ink system do you run - Closed vs. Bulk/Open Ink System? Bulk system that came on my HM1, has the agitator 
2. What do you estimate is your current cost per a print of 12” x 14” graphic for CMYK print? $1 to $2 depending on the graphic and how many layers I print.
3. What is your desired cost per a print of 12” x 14” graphic for CMYK print? I think price I pay now is reasonable
4. What do you estimate is your current cost per a print of 12” x 14” graphic for CMYK+White (dark garment) print (if you do this type printing)? $3.50 to $5.00 depending on graphic and how much coverage.
5. What is your desired cost per a print of 12” x 14” graphic for CMYK+White (dark garment) print (whether you do this type of printing now or want to in the future)? I would love for it to be close to the cost of a light garment 

Hey Chance, I get my foam tipped cleaners from here Set of Swabs - Interior Detailing - Car Care - Griot's Garage, at Griots garage and they are alot cheaper, but work just as great as the ones the distributors sell  Hope this helps.


----------



## JPD (Nov 8, 2006)

1. Type of ink system do you run - Closed vs. Bulk/Open Ink System?
*Closed.

* 2. What do you estimate is your current cost per a print of 12” x 14” graphic for CMYK print?
*$1.10 - $1.50 depending on the coverage.

* 3. What is your desired cost per a print of 12” x 14” graphic for CMYK print?
*$0.60 - $0.75 - Roughly half.*

4. What do you estimate is your current cost per a print of 12” x 14” graphic for CMYK+White (dark garment) print (if you do this type printing)?
*Low - $2.50 using Dupont ink.
Mid - $2.80 using Kornit ink.
High - $4.85 using Brother ink (782)
(Depending on coverage)
*
 5. What is your desired cost per a print of 12” x 14” graphic for CMYK+White (dark garment) print (whether you do this type of printing now or want to in the future)?
*$3.00 range would be acceptable (two pass white).*

Eric


----------



## zoom_monster (Sep 20, 2006)

1. Type of ink system do you run - Closed vs. Bulk/Open Ink System?
*Closed.*

2. What do you estimate is your current cost per a print of 12” x 14” graphic for CMYK print?
*$1.60 perhaps*
3. What is your desired cost per a print of 12” x 14” graphic for CMYK print?
*.80*

4. What do you estimate is your current cost per a print of 12” x 14” graphic for CMYK+White (dark garment) print (if you do this type printing)?
*6 to 10*

5. What is your desired cost per a print of 12” x 14” graphic for CMYK+White (dark garment) print (whether you do this type of printing now or want to in the future)?
*A $4 ceiling would be nice*


As I've said before, I hate the "average" thing. It does not reflect real world variance of the % of coverage and the tweaks you can get by adjusting the underbase. These prices certainly do not reflect my print cost average. I generally price based on through-put (shirts per hour). I can count on 2 hands the jobs that I've printed that were this large (168 sq"). My ink cost basically comes out to about .01 per square inch on CMYK and about .06 psi for CMYKW, and even that could be cosidered high but not worst case. It will be great to have lower ink cost, but more shirts per hour will make DTG more "mainstream". Interesingly, it costs just as much time to print a solid 12x14 as a same size design with a thin border and no coverage.

Ian


----------



## TahoeTomahawk (Apr 12, 2006)

*Re: What is a Fair Ink Cost? Let me know your thoughts!*

1. Closed - Belquette system.
2. $.25 ink , single pass, $.35 pre-treat for color shirts.
3. We're happy with the cost for CMKY prints.


raise said:


> 4. $3.36 ink, $.75 pretreatment
> 5. $1.75 ink, $.25 pretreatment


I agree with raise. If we could cut the cost of white ink printing in half, that would be great. I know white ink is difficult to make, but the pre-treat is not. That should be very cheap.


----------



## Scott07 (Apr 11, 2009)

1. Type of ink system do you run - Closed Ink System?
2. What do you estimate is your current cost per a print of 12” x 14” graphic for CMYK print? $1.00
3. What is your desired cost per a print of 12” x 14” graphic for CMYK print? $1.00 is great, no complaint.
4. What do you estimate is your current cost per a print of 12” x 14” graphic for CMYK+White would be great(dark garment) print (if you do this type printing)? $2.50 currently on average.
5. What is your desired cost per a print of 12” x 14” graphic for CMYK+White (dark garment) print (whether you do this type of printing now or want to in the future)? $2.00

The white ink is the most expensive, on DTG printers, but I'm impressed with the white our printer prints. (The viper pretreater helps alot with our production speed)


----------



## Pyroshouse (Mar 4, 2008)

I am finding this thread very interesting, Scott what system do you use?


----------



## dragonknight (May 30, 2009)

1. Type of ink system do you run - Closed vs. Bulk/Open Ink System?
_Open_

2. What do you estimate is your current cost per a print of 12” x 14” graphic for CMYK print?
_$1-$2_

3. What is your desired cost per a print of 12” x 14” graphic for CMYK print?
_$0.30 almost the same price with screen printing if possible_

4. What do you estimate is your current cost per a print of 12” x 14” graphic for CMYK+White (dark garment) print (if you do this type printing)?
_$3-$6 depend on the coverage_

5. What is your desired cost per a print of 12” x 14” graphic for CMYK+White (dark garment) print (whether you do this type of printing now or want to in the future)?
_$0.50-$0.60 the same price with plastisol screen printing maybe in the future_


----------



## Fercho_05 (Sep 21, 2009)

I can see the real cost per print is more expensive that the dealer says.
I'm from Argentina and with those costs, print here would be not rentable for the customer.
regards


----------



## PPop (Jan 18, 2009)

When I 1st read the title of this post, "Re: What is a Fair DTG Ink Cost?" I though it meant "What is the Fair cost per liter that the vendors charge for the inks and pretreatment!

Why is DTG Ink so expensive?


----------



## DAGuide (Oct 2, 2006)

PPop said:


> Why is DTG Ink so expensive?


I think the main reason is that dtg printing is still a very young technology and companies need to make their R&D dollars back. Because there are 3-4 main ink suppliers in the market and several smaller ones, that can add up to a large amount of money that each manufacturer needs to recoup to stay in business and provide a consisent, quality product. The ink prices have started to come down from where they were two years ago (except for Kornit which I think went up, but they were the lowest). 

From the posts above, it does not sound like the CMYK ink pricing is that bad. But because we use 5 to 10 times the amount of white ink compared to CMYK ink (difference is based on the artwork and which ink set you are using), it is very easy for the price of dark garment prints with white ink to jump high.

For these reasons, the cost per a print when doing dtg printing is fairly high on darks. Maybe one day it will drop down to the costs of screen printing inks and the inks will never clog (this is what I hear most people asking for), but then you will find dtg printers in every Walmart, Target, Walgreens type stores and the competition / MSRP pricing will be too fierce to make it worthwhile for most. 

Just like anything else, there are positives and negatives to just about anything. Just need to find what works for your business.

Best wishes,

Mark


----------



## bornover (Apr 10, 2008)

DAGuide said:


> snip...
> but then you will find dtg printers in every Walmart, Target, Walgreens type stores and the competition / MSRP pricing will be too fierce to make it worthwhile for most.


I am not sure I see the same thing happening Mark. You don't see Roland GX-24's in Walmart making custom stickers on demand or for pickup in an hour or two. You can find them *and* DTG machines at kiosks in the mall though, and it is companies like the people here on the forum doing that. Nor do you see bigger Roland machines making custom posters and banners on demand in big retail stores. The banner machines are in FedEx Kinko's, but that has not killed the people here on the forum who have that kind of equipment for their businesses. Laser etchers are not in the big retailers either.

If DTG gets non clogging ink and even more speed I don't think Walmart will want to put them in the stores where people come in and have their art or images printed on a tee for $19.99. It is not the same market or factors in place as photo printing. Crummy quality images from a customers camera is not something people with DTG's in their printing business need to worry about competing with. 

Even if Walmart had people pick stock images for fashion shirts to have printed on the spot is not something to worry about. Walmart is not going to do something to their fashion shirt market they already do well in. They are not going to take away floor space for an expensive machine and specially trained employee from a garment rack that will make them even more money.

There are already other products with the technology to produce on demand right on the spot or have pickup the next day, some which I mentioned above, and the big super stores are not jumping on those things.

I will take the non clogging ink and take the risks you mentioned Mark. I have talent and creativity Walmart will never be able to compete with even if they tried. They can have the cheap and headache customers.


----------



## DAGuide (Oct 2, 2006)

Mark,

I understand you points. I think the comparison of vinyl / film is not the same as dtg printing either. People like to watch a shirt being printed more than they would watch a cutter cut the vinyl and for someone to weed it before applying / pressing it. I hear the analogy of watching a pizza being made (i.e. dough being tossed and the ingredients applied) behind the glass window to a dtg printer running a lot. 

I do think a better example would be the photography industry when the cost of the printer and maintenance got easy enough for almost any Walgreens employee to run it... and then the printer manufacturers started pushing the printers that can sold directly to the customer - the smaller photography labs started fading away. The improvements to software will help make up for the crummy artwork provided by customers. Just look what the online shirt designers have already done. Remove the clogging / maintenance issues and I don't think you need a specially trained employee to run a printer that is feed artwork by an online designer. Remove those challenges and the technology is not far off from allowing one person to pull up a job on a screen that states what shirt (model, size, color) to load on the printer, hit the print button and cure the garment when done.

I do agree with you that there will always be a place for companies that have creativity and great custom art. Unfortunately, there are a lot of dtg printers that are using stock art. These are the ones that I think that will be impacted the most.

Mark

P.S. I know some large format digital distributors that might disagree that sales have not dropped because FedEx Kinkos is printing signs. These companies buy in quantities direct from the manufacturers. If the distributors sales are down, then it is hard to say that their customers (sign companies) are doing the same level of business without expanding their product lines.


----------



## bornover (Apr 10, 2008)

DAGuide said:


> Mark,
> 
> I understand you points. I think the comparison of vinyl / film is not the same as dtg printing either. People like to watch a shirt being printed more than they would watch a cutter cut the vinyl and for someone to weed it before applying / pressing it. I hear the analogy of watching a pizza being made (i.e. dough being tossed and the ingredients applied) behind the glass window to a dtg printer running a lot.
> 
> ...


Hi Mark, yeah, I understand your points to. I guess my thinking on this subject boils down to the idea that not taking DTG technology to its fullest, and solving the technical issues that greatly effect many companies that have made significant investments into difficult and expensive to maintain (and keep running) equipment cannot be good in the long run. If the issues discussed are not solved, then the smaller companies that run DTGs will be forced to abandon DTG and only larger companies that keep the machines humming all day long will be left. So who are we protecting? Only the larger DTG companies? 

Little companies are already forced to compete with big companies. Does it really matter who the big companies are, or how big they are to the little guy? If the little guy has a machine and supplies (ink) that do not create problems for him, that is one less component in the equation to worry about when trying to compete in the market against other companies that may be larger and doing more volume.

To say we want DTG printing to have difficult issues and not to be too easy so big retailers won't start doing it seems absurd to me. We don't know either way what some company like Walmart will or will not do with DTG if the technology were to be evolved and improved to a point where it was not a hassle to keep the machines running. Although some companies have been very successful with DTG printing, I believe many companies are having problems growing that area of their business because of the issues with DTG. DTG manufactures and suppliers will sell more machines, ink and supplies if they solve the issues we face. I believe companies that use DTGs will sell more products as well if the issues are solved. If Walmart or some other big chains enter the market at that point, so be it. But give the majority of us who have invested into DTG technology that are struggling with it a chance to make it work for us. 

The vast majority of companies that have purchased DTGs are not the fairly large online print on demand companies that are doing well with it, they are the small mom and pop businesses that have already given up or are barely making a profit from the machine because of all the struggles with it. Give us the chance to make it work because we will have a large enough time frame to work with before anyone like Walmart might come into the picture.


----------



## DAGuide (Oct 2, 2006)

Mark,

Maybe I need to clarify something. I am not saying I don't want to see improvements in dtg printing. I am just saying everyone’s wishes can be a double edge sword that will bring more competition and may even drive out the dtg companies that don't provide something unique (i.e. artwork for the most part) to the customer. Sure I would like to see everyone with a dtg printer get their ROI on their printer(s) back and more. I am also not a big fan of Walmart as a company based on some of their past practices. Just saying for years there has been a skill required for printing shirts. DTG printing has made printing shirts much easier minus some challenges. Remove those challenges and competition is naturally going to increase.

The reason why I see the Walmart-like stores more of a threat than the online companies (i.e. Zazzle, Custom Ink, Cafe Press,...) is the face-to-face interaction and the ability to see your work made right in front of you. I was talking about this with my fiance and she used the example of Build-a-Bear workshop. (I have never been in one of these shops in the mall, but have walked by them a couple of times). The concept is that the kids or parents make their own bear and pay even more than they would at a toy shop. They actually get to select the different options and then see it constructed in front of them. I talked to some people that were trying to put dtg printers in large amusement parks and one of the things I mentioned would be cool for the customer is seeing a TV monitor of their shirt being printed (since most people don't want the printer right out in the open for environmental reasons). There is just something special about the concept of saying I created this design and watched it made right in front of me. A brick and mortar store provides this opportunity that an online store does not.

Mark, I am not in complete disagreement with your posts and I am sure the ink manufacturers (i.e. Dupont,...) are doing what they can within financial limitations to bring the no-clogging ink to market as it is in their best interest to sell more ink. I am just a firm believer that in today's society, small businesses do better when they have a craft that requires some form of skill that can't be done by just any company hiring someone with no skill. In your case, it sounds like custom art is one of your skills. With some of the smaller companies that are struggling as you mentioned above, they might be using stock art (i.e. DAS, Action Illustrated, Great Dane Graphics, ClipArt.com,...) and will have a much harder time competing against a company that can get the same stock art and that the customers already visit periodically.

I really like this type of discussion because it makes people think long term and not just focusing on the current challenges with a technology. Our industry will always thrive on creativity and cutting edge artwork. I think the one thing that is undersold with dtg printing is the art side. 

Best wishes with your business,

Mark


----------



## Don-ColDesi (Oct 18, 2006)

I think a better analogy would be that 10 years ago signs were done wy sign shops, embroidery by embroidery shops and screen printing by screen printers. With the advent of digital solutions in some of these markets it has made it easier for companies to adopt new output methods that are not within their current niche. As we see a move to more full service graphics operations we will see more of the specialized. one or two output method, companies be swallowed up. The longer one waits to add a new technology, the further behind the curve he is in regards to proficency especially, when he decides to jump on board.
Direct to Garment printing is not perfected, but, it has come a long way in the 5+ years I have been involved in it. It is now being adopted more frequently by larger apparel decoration companies as well as being researched by large retail operations for implementation as well.


----------



## Don-ColDesi (Oct 18, 2006)

Mark,
Now that you have researched what users think a fair price of ink is, how about taking it to another level? If ink price is a stumbling block to implementation of direct to garment printing in your operation, what price point for ink would remove that barrier to purchase?


----------



## YoDan (May 4, 2007)

> what price point for ink would remove that barrier to purchase?


I would be interested in that information also 
Dan
*"HAPPY PRINTING"*


----------



## DAGuide (Oct 2, 2006)

Don-SWF East said:


> Mark,





Don-SWF East said:


> Now that you have researched what users think a fair price of ink is, how about taking it to another level? If ink price is a stumbling block to implementation of direct to garment printing in your operation, what price point for ink would remove that barrier to purchase?


Don,

You are making an assumption that ink prices are the “stumbling block” for more people getting into dtg printing. The original post was to get some feedback from actual users as to a fair price for CMYK and CMYK+W dtg prints. Not whether ink price is a barrier to entry for more companies getting into the market. I believe there are many other barriers to entry for companies like the ones discussed in the posts with burnover above.

But, to answer your question on what the actual users think is a fair price… all we need to do is run the numbers and take an average. If more people responded to the survey so we would have a large enough sample pool, then I would say we use a standard deviation to take out the people that are on each of the extreme sides (i.e. want a really low price and have no problems with a really high price). In this case, we are working with a small sample pool. So I just used the averages of the numbers posted. The averages of the respondents show the desired CMYK price for a closed system is $0.74 and open system is $0.91. The desired CMYK+W price for a closed system is $2.50 and a open system $1.51. See the attached PDF for the exact numbers.

When running the numbers, I did not put a price in for desired CMYK cost for wholesale because his answer was “as low as possible” and that does not equate to a dollar figure. So that average was based off of 5 responses instead of 6. Interesting enough, the desired cost for CMYK prints on an open system was higher than that of a closed system. Again, this might have to do with the small sample pool where the averages are more affected by answers on each of the extremes. The other thing to notice is that differences in the responses for the average current cost of CMYK+W dtg prints from the open system to the closed systems is not as large as one would expect when looking at the differences in the cost to purchase the ink. This could be a result of several things: 1) the use of different ink sets that are not the same visocity and don't require the same amount of ink to get the necessary coverage of a white underbase, 2) the method of measuring ink cost may be different from one respondent to another,... and other items.

Alternatively, I would like to state that the ink pricing needs to provide a certain level of profit for the ink manufacturers to allow them to continuing to do R&D till Mark's / burnover's dreams of a non-clogging ink comes true. This is one of the things that several dtg owners fail to understand. It is going to take an unknown, but most likely significant financial investment to make this happen even if it is possible. It may require moving from a waterbased ink to some other type of ink (i.e. UV cured,...) and requiring all new hardware / printers. In today's economy and the lack of capital funding opportunities compared to earlier years, the ink manufacturers are going to need have this money in the bank before they will want to make those steps. So asking for ink prices to be at the same level as plastisol screen printing inks that have been around for decades with very little changes to them is not likely to happen.

Hope this at least provides you some feedback on your question. Good luck at the Orlando ISS Show.

Mark


----------



## bornover (Apr 10, 2008)

For me, who does not use my DTG every day, I need non clogging ink before I need less expensive ink. The cost of new print heads drastically hurts my ability to make money with the DTG machine if I need to replace one because of the ink killing the head. 

I am sure it is the opposite for companies that are keeping their DTG machines humming all day long.

Who is the larger customer base for DTG manufactures? The smaller operations not printing every day, or the larger ones that do print daily? We know who uses more ink per company, but that may not be the larger customer base in numbers of companies or actual over all ink purchased. Which base do the ink manufacturers need to pay attention to most?

The old saying is "the squeaky wheel gets the oil". Well I'm squeaking away super loudly; more like a squeak roar!


----------



## Don-ColDesi (Oct 18, 2006)

In terms of ink consumption I would say it is a 70-30 scenario. 30% of the compnaies are consuming 70% of the ink, however, all are buying machines - so this adds a twist to the equation. In regards to non-clogging ink, the white ink circulation systems on my favorite brand of printers have greatly increased the amount of time that a machine can set dormant without experiencing clogging issues.


----------



## loloxa (Sep 5, 2007)

It's all about what market you are aiming for.

I think that Ink prices are a stumbling block for people who do large runs ( 500+).
Not so much for people doing less than 50.
but all in all let's not forget one thing, we compete with not just other dtg users, but with a whole array of cheap t-shirt decoration techniques, and to win over the market DTG should be cheaper and better than some of the others.

So sorry for the Offtopic I'm about to start.

I work with various decoration tecniques and the costs for material and inks is aprox as follows.

print cost for a 12x14 with 4 even squares filling the whole area each square is one of the CMYK colors. 

My DTG (541) cost = 2.50$ optimal print, 2.00 tweaked. // _wash fastness_ A
light transfers solution = .80c // _wash fastness_ B-
dark transfer solution = 1.90$ // _wash fastness_ C+
silkscreen = .20c // _wash fastness_ A++
Vinyl = .50c // _wash fastness_ A+

This comparisons are not fair, since setup is not computed and there is a big difference between setting up 4 screens and pressing the print button, but once you go beyond 50 pieces, 4 screens are just 2 bucks per shirt, and if you recycle screens then the cost maybe goes down to .20 or .10c per shirt. Trimming transfers is time consuming but initial gear cost is cheap compared to DTG.

My point being, dtg is filling a niche market, those who want small multicolor runs, and by small I mean less than 50, a good screener can do 50 pieces runs cheaper than we can, I can depending on the coverage of the picture, maybe the detail will not be as small in the prints, but very few clients are looking for registration under half a mm.

So as a market this should be headed to be the only substitute to screen print, it is cleaner, way more efficient with inks ( hardly any waste), but there isn't much competition, brother in one side kornit in the other and the rest reimplementing epson's R&D ( mimaki doesn't even distribute their dtg products in much of europe), even M&R choose not to develop a full solution in house, because they know the tech seems not be there yet.

what will happen when automatic screen setups become cheaper than dtg machines? or if smaller footprint screen printing systems come along, a whole bunch of maybes, but the big money in this industry is in big runs, nobody becomes rich at 6$ margin in one of a kind shirts, doing 40 a day. Money is where you do 2000 in 1.5 days and make .70c per shirt selling them for less than 2 bucks a shirt. both businesses will make you money but only the second will make you more money faster.

I could not produce 2000 shirts at comparable cost unless I'm doing pocket prints or child wear, there is where this dtgs make the most money, small prints, which means cheaper and faster turn out.

I make easily 4 times much more money in the same amount of time with my screen printing than what I make with my dtg, and I have a dtg because saying no to clients is far worst than making little money.

Ideally:
lights less than .70$
darks less than 1.50$ pretreat included

I would settle for:
lights around 1.00$
darks around 2.00$ pretreat included

As for the margins for ink manufacturers, I believe they are the ones making a gold rush in this picture, they should try cheaper ink= more machines= more ink sold= cheaper ink, so I would like to see them using this rationale, or use epson's with dirt cheap machines + expensive inks, but expensive machines and expensive inks is not my ideal scenario.

Eventually a few users could/will get together pay for a formulation of inks similar to theirs and share the supply, is not like the inks will go bad before we use them, or that heads are that much more expensive than a couple of litters of ink.

end of rant


----------



## Don-ColDesi (Oct 18, 2006)

I would call you on one point on pricing above - last thing I knew the heat appliable, sol-jet printable transfer media cost at a bare minimum of a penny per square inch - that being said - your scenario above would cost at least $1.68 plus ink for the "vinyl" solution. Secondly, the pricing you are looking for in regards to ink prices are already being more than met on the light garment side and, graphic dependant, also on the dark garment side.


----------



## loloxa (Sep 5, 2007)

Don-SWF East said:


> I would call you on one point on pricing above - last thing I knew the heat appliable, sol-jet printable transfer media cost at a bare minimum of a penny per square inch - that being said - your scenario above would cost at least $1.68 plus ink for the "vinyl" solution. .


Sorry I was speaking about cad-cut no cad-cut-print. and I might be 20 cents off, I get my cad cut for 8.38 each 720 square inches.

My supliers cad-cut-print solution is about 1.29 for a 12*14 area.

Not trying to mix anyone up, just having to convert from metric to imperial and from euros to dollars.


----------



## zoom_monster (Sep 20, 2006)

Printing CMYK, It would be damn near imposible for anyone to use more ink on a print(in cost) than the labor to print that shirt....20 to 30 prints per hour(given a fair sellable price). Using white 
ink, the slower throughput and the fact that you are using a higher ratio (white to CMYK), make 
this not so impossible to spend more on ink than labor. Faster machines and multiple machines run 
by the same operator can solve some of this, but the overall cost of "material" per hour vs. cost of production has to meet at a happy medium. Offhand, I would think that would need to be in 
the 20-30% range. In other words, If I'm printing a 12 X 16 solid print on darks, the cost of my ink needs to be less than that percentage of my labor costs and fixed overhead.


----------



## Don-ColDesi (Oct 18, 2006)

If you attend an ISS Show this year look into the direct to garment classes given by Greg Kitson, his term for this is called "breakover" (I believe that's the word he uses). Basically a spreadsheat that determines when to screen and when to DTG. Well worth checking out.


----------



## Sector 9 (Aug 9, 2011)

1. Closed
2. $1.80 ink based on 75% coverage of the 12 x 14 inch area, double pass
3. $.70 ink
4. $3.50 ink, $.75 pretreatment
5. $1.75 ink, $.30 pretreatment


----------



## FulStory (Jun 5, 2013)

this tread is good. but if add one more question will be better, the cost based on how much/liter.


----------



## kevrokr (Feb 26, 2007)

FulStory said:


> this tread is good. but if add one more question will be better, the cost based on how much/liter.


Yes. Most RIP software calculates the cost by the liter.


----------



## equipmentzone (Mar 26, 2008)

FulStory said:


> this tread is good. but if add one more question will be better, the cost based on how much/liter.




Each manufacturer / distributor has their own pricing on inks. Some prices vary greatly from one company to another. Your cost will also vary depending on the size of the ink bottles / ink bags you buy (4 oz., 8 oz., 16 oz., liter).


_


----------



## FulStory (Jun 5, 2013)

equipmentzone said:


> Each manufacturer / distributor has their own pricing on inks. Some prices vary greatly from one company to another. Your cost will also vary depending on the size of the ink bottles / ink bags you buy (4 oz., 8 oz., 16 oz., liter).
> 
> 
> _


yea. I mean people not necessary has to tell what is the brand of their ink. but they can tell how much they purchase their cmyk ink in the format of $/liter and also white ink in the $/liter. so that others people will have the reference.


----------



## equipmentzone (Mar 26, 2008)

FulStory said:


> yea. I mean people not necessary has to tell what is the brand of their ink. but they can tell how much they purchase their cmyk ink in the format of $/liter and also white ink in the $/liter. so that others people will have the reference.



Almost every manufacturer and distributor of direct to garment printers lists their ink prices on their web sites. You can go to each site to immediately compare prices.

_


----------



## FulStory (Jun 5, 2013)

However, I would like to know every machine use up average of how many *ml of cmyk ink and white ink* to print a A4, and A3. that will be more helpful.


----------



## DAGuide (Oct 2, 2006)

FulStory said:


> However, I would like to know every machine use up average of how many *ml of cmyk ink and white ink* to print a A4, and A3. that will be more helpful.


I agree with you. The cost per a liter is a lot like the cost per a gallon of gasoline. It matters when you have to pay to get more gas (i.e. outlay of cash), but when it comes to a cost per a print... it is not a final determination. Just like there are different miles per a gallon for automobiles, there is a different amount of ink usage per a printer based on the viscosity of the ink, the ICC profiles selected, the quality of the garment being used and other factors.

However, where we disagree is using the "ml of cmyk ink and white ink to print a A4, and A3" part. You have to have the same exact piece of artwork. Different colors in the artwork (i.e. full block of yellow versus more dark colors) will result in a completely different amount of white ink applied. In addition, this type of analysis is very short sighted when it comes to budgeting. You have to take into account all the other steps and ink usage to just get the printer ready for printing. Thus, the cost per a print is something that I believe should be determined over a several week period because all the RIPs / drivers that I have seen calculate the ink usage based on the data in the artwork. They don't include all the cost for the spitting done by the firmware, the head cleanings to keep the nozzles firing properly and the daily / periodic maintenance. These processes use ink and will affect your cost per a print. They are also affected by the environment you put the printer in. So as a user, you have some control over this... but not all.

These are just some of the things that I have learned over the years since starting this thread. What some people might find surprising, I believe when you take into account labor cost... all the printers are very close or in the same total cost per a print range. This statement comes from speaking with all types / sizes of users from different machines. 

Best wishes,

Mark


----------



## Riph (Jan 11, 2011)

Yes, the rip calculates only based on the artwork, not all the other ink using events. To partially adjust for that I just put ink price in the RIP software that is 10-15% higher than what I pay. Just a swag, but better than nothing.


----------



## Resolute DTG (Jun 27, 2010)

Riph said:


> Yes, the rip calculates only based on the artwork, not all the other ink using events. To partially adjust for that I just put ink price in the RIP software that is 10-15% higher than what I pay. Just a swag, but better than nothing.


An up to date rip should account for head cleanings in the form of a contingency setting. We use 10% which is a massive over kill, best to be safe than sorry so when the accounts are calculated you are well in 

Colin


----------



## blzpowr (Apr 16, 2011)

DAGuide said:


> I agree with you. The cost per a liter is a lot like the cost per a gallon of gasoline. It matters when you have to pay to get more gas (i.e. outlay of cash), but when it comes to a cost per a print... it is not a final determination. Just like there are different miles per a gallon for automobiles, there is a different amount of ink usage per a printer based on the viscosity of the ink, the ICC profiles selected, the quality of the garment being used and other factors.
> 
> However, where we disagree is using the "ml of cmyk ink and white ink to print a A4, and A3" part. You have to have the same exact piece of artwork. Different colors in the artwork (i.e. full block of yellow versus more dark colors) will result in a completely different amount of white ink applied. In addition, this type of analysis is very short sighted when it comes to budgeting. You have to take into account all the other steps and ink usage to just get the printer ready for printing. Thus, the cost per a print is something that I believe should be determined over a several week period because all the RIPs / drivers that I have seen calculate the ink usage based on the data in the artwork. They don't include all the cost for the spitting done by the firmware, the head cleanings to keep the nozzles firing properly and the daily / periodic maintenance. These processes use ink and will affect your cost per a print. They are also affected by the environment you put the printer in. So as a user, you have some control over this... but not all.
> 
> ...



Very well put, Mark.


----------



## FulStory (Jun 5, 2013)

IYFGraphics said:


> Bulk/Open - Equipment Zone
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hi there, just wanna to know after 4 years, i mean currently, is it the price is still the same or has decrease?


----------



## FulStory (Jun 5, 2013)

sunnydayz said:


> Here are mine
> 
> 1. Type of ink system do you run - Closed vs. Bulk/Open Ink System? Bulk system that came on my HM1, has the agitator
> 2. What do you estimate is your current cost per a print of 12” x 14” graphic for CMYK print? $1 to $2 depending on the graphic and how many layers I print.
> ...


Hi there, just wanna to know after 4 years, i mean currently, is it the price is still the same or has decrease?


----------



## FulStory (Jun 5, 2013)

DAGuide said:


> I think the main reason is that dtg printing is still a very young technology and companies need to make their R&D dollars back. Because there are 3-4 main ink suppliers in the market and several smaller ones, that can add up to a large amount of money that each manufacturer needs to recoup to stay in business and provide a consisent, quality product. The ink prices have started to come down from where they were two years ago (except for Kornit which I think went up, but they were the lowest).
> 
> From the posts above, it does not sound like the CMYK ink pricing is that bad. But because we use 5 to 10 times the amount of white ink compared to CMYK ink (difference is based on the artwork and which ink set you are using), it is very easy for the price of dark garment prints with white ink to jump high.
> 
> ...


Mark, just wanna to know after 4 years for now, is the price still the same or has decrease?


----------

