# Genuine products or not???



## Sunro (Apr 19, 2008)

This is kinda long ...

A couple of weeks ago, we ordered replacement stocks of FastWhite ink and Pretreatment #1 for our Blazer. We ordered these from a US Screen dealer who shall remain nameless.

What we received was bottles of white ink with no labels of any kind and bottles of Pretreatment also with no US Screen labels. We were told on the phone that "it's the real thing, it's just that US Screen ran out of labels".

Well, we have begun using these new supplies, and we're getting a lot less white ink laid down on black garments, to the point we've had to double our usual print resolution just to get enough white at all. The print head is working correctly, and we can't see anything wrong with the ink delivery system.

Two questions ...
- Has anyone else received shipments, supposedly originating at US Screen, with no labels?
- Isn't it a bit coincidental that two different products would run out of labels at the same time?

Unfortunately because there were no labels on the ink bottles, we can't determine the lot number, so problem reports don't have much validity.

We have been trying to get a response from the dealer for a couple of weeks, but all we get is voicemail, and no replies to our email. We are seriously considering changing suppliers.

I surely hope this hasn't become an expensive lesson!


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## csquared (Sep 8, 2006)

Sounds fishy to me, I have not heard of this kind of thing happening. I would contact US Screen directly.


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## Sunro (Apr 19, 2008)

csquared said:


> Sounds fishy to me, I have not heard of this kind of thing happening. I would contact US Screen directly.


I agree. We will be contacting them on Monday. In the mean time, we have a big order of shirts to print, so we're going to have to do the best we can.

A 1440x1440 underbase is too strong, and 1440x720 is not strong enough. Annoying.

I just hope I'm not being too paranoid


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## DAGuide (Oct 2, 2006)

Well for the most part, there is only one real white ink and corresponding pretreatment that is sold for any Epson-based dtg printer... that is Dupont. Someone can correct me if things have changed. So there is the likelihood that the ink did not come from US Screen... but it is the same product. It should still have labels on the bottles.

Hopefully, everything works out for you and your printer continues to print the way it was before the new supplies were used.

Mark


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## equipmentzone (Mar 26, 2008)

Sunro said:


> This is kinda long ...
> 
> A couple of weeks ago, we ordered replacement stocks of FastWhite ink and Pretreatment #1 for our Blazer. We ordered these from a US Screen dealer who shall remain nameless.
> 
> ...





I can only say that as a major dealer we sell a tremendous amount of FastINK every week and in all the time we have been selling FastINK we have never sent out bottles without labels. And all the labels have the batch number of the ink clearly marked. I know of no label "shortage". 

I would also caution you to be careful because the Pretreatment #1 and the white ink look very alike at a quick glance. If you got the same size bottles without labels make sure and carefully mark which is which.

Harry


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## Sunro (Apr 19, 2008)

equipmentzone said:


> .... If you got the same size bottles without labels how could you be certain which is which?


Now *that* is an interesting question 

Fortunately the ink was in 1-liter bottles, and the pretreatment in 1-gal containers. I found it odd that the pretreatment labels said only "Pretreatment #1" in large black letters that looked like someone had printed quick-and-dirty labels with an office laser printer.

As long as the contents are indeed genuine, and the white ink is the current Dupont product, I don't really care if the labels are missing, but the dealer telling me that US Screen ran out of labels on two different products at the same time seems a bit odd. You'd think that at the very least they would have hand-written the ink lot numbers on the bottles before shipping.

What made us suspicious is the fact that white ink printing changed significantly at about the time the tail end of the old lot of ink had passed thru to the print head. We also found that the ink bottles were not sealed with the usual fiber-reinforced clear tape, but simply with what looks like ordinary clear tape. Maybe/maybe-not US Screen got into a production backlog and had to fill and ship bottles the fastest way they could.

I'd like to give the dealer the benefit of the doubt on one matter ... it's entirely possible that they were very much tied up with the Printwear Show this week, which would explain why phone calls and emails are not being returned. I know from experience that trade shows eat up enormous resources for the vendors, so I'll not bug them until next week.


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## fdsales (Jul 1, 2007)

Sounds like this "dealer" is selling another type/brand of ink, and saying it's ink obtained from US Screen. Most likely, you purchased at a reduced price, so you thought you were saving money.
By OSHA law, any type of solvents, including ink, must be properly labeled, and delivered w/ MDSD safety sheets.
First, I would contact US Screen & find out if they are, in fact, shipping ink to dealers w/ no labels...betcha the answer is NO. I would then inform US Screen what's going on with this dealer.
Second, request to return the ink & get a full refund, stating you're not satisfied. Hopefully you paid by credit card (not COD), and you can file a claim w/ the credit card co. for fraud. 
Unanswered phone calls & unanswered emails from any dealer are NO excuse. If you're not happy with this dealer, send an email direct to Scott Fresner at USSPI; he usually is concerned on how his dealers are responding, and this ink issue really raises some "red flags".
When switching back to the proper white ink, you may have to flush out the "other" ink from your print head.
Please post back & let us know what happens with all this.


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## csquared (Sep 8, 2006)

you might also have a home brewed pretreatment, this would account for the ink not setting right


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## T2Green Shirts (Jul 11, 2008)

I can tell you for a fact that U.S. Screen prints their labels right in the ink room where it is bottled. They never send bottles without labels. The other issue is that U.S. Screen has been out of ink for a long time so the dealer probally did use another brand or supplier. Witout access to the correct labels.

I'm not sure I would do business with a "DEALER" that never answers the phone and has voice mail for that long. Trade show or not..Business has to go on!


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## equipmentzone (Mar 26, 2008)

fdsales brings up a very good point. OSHA regulations require that all shipped ink containers be labeled with an abbreviated version of its MSDS (example - the familiar red,yellow, blue, and white diamond with black numbers commonly seen on ink labels). You are also responsible as an employer to insure that all your ink containers are properly labeled or you can be fined if you have an OSHA inspection. I can tell you that we have a very large inventory of FastINK in stock here and all the bottles are labeled. And in all the years we have been a US Screen dealer we have never received unlabeled bottles.

Harry


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## Sunro (Apr 19, 2008)

My sincere thanks to all the responders! The point about OSHA labeling (although it doesn't apply here in Canada) is a very good one. I have the feeling that this particular dealer filled their own bottles from a bulk supply. Oh, and we paid full price. Labels or no labels, genuine products or not, I'm miffed that they claim everything is from US Screen, given that those folks would be well aware of OSHA regulations!

US Screen will be getting a call from me tomorrow (Monday) about this issue. I will then send a heads-up to Scott and Pat Fresener if I discover that the bottles were not from them. Whether or not a claim to recover our Visa card charges works is a good question. That will probably take months.

In the mean time, we'll have to do our best to get the current production run out the door with good quality. Fortunately we have found that white ink washability is ok in limited testing, but all this is a needless waste of time (*sigh*)

I'll post further developments as they occur. I think it best not to mention who this dealer is, for legal reasons.

p.s. Why is US Screen short of supplies? Are they simply waiting for the next version of Dupont inks in order not to get stuck with lots of old stock?


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## sunnydayz (Jun 22, 2007)

I was thinking they were probably filling their own bottles from the bulk bottles. That sounds to be the case. let us know what you find out.


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## Mistewoods (Jul 7, 2007)

nanojetink.com

I looked up Nanojet to see if they are still selling a white ink- and they are. there are probably others as well who have a white ink. DuPont does appear to be the currently accepted standard for white ink and pretreatment combination that will run in Epson print heads, but there are others out there.


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## Sunro (Apr 19, 2008)

*Re: Genuine products or not??? Solved!*

Ok, time to call off the dogs!

I spoke at length with US Screen this morning, and was told that because they are constantly running short of small-size bottles of supplies, they have authorized their dealers to buy large bulk containers from them, and pour their own smaller bottles. The issue is that they have not been able to get labels out to the dealers as fast as they would like. I'm not sure what OSHA would think of this, but it's ok with me just as long as I know what's happening.

This comes as good news of course, but I wish the dealer had explained it in those terms. As to the problems we're having with good white ink prints, I guess it's simply the result of a change in lot number. We continue to get perfect nozzle checks, so the issue is one of ink density during printing.

Now I can sleep a bit better at night


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## sunnydayz (Jun 22, 2007)

Yep that was what I figured it was, because I myself have bought ink from a third party distributor that did not have the full labels either, and this was the same reason why  They were simply filling the smaller bottles from bulk bottles.


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## Don-ColDesi (Oct 18, 2006)

A concern with dealers "re-bottling" the inks themselves is that they may not follow the proper procedures that a USSPIT or other distributor would to make sure the bulk containers of ink are constantly agiated (we agiatate all master jugs of ink at least every other day and all smaller bottles of white ink at least twice a week). If the inks are allowed to settle and then not properly agitated back into suspension you can end up with ink with a lighter pigment load than normal - which is what sounds like you may have.


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## sunnydayz (Jun 22, 2007)

I have not bought white ink this way, only cmyk  I think I would be more paranoid of buying the white that way.


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## Sunro (Apr 19, 2008)

Well, I had hoped this thread would be over by now, but such is not the case.

We found that just to get enough white we had to lay down so much ink that the white would bleed thru the color layers, or (even worse) the colored inks would actually run a bit over the white. This would happen even with almost no heat press pressure, and even with a flash dry before pressing. Nothing we tried would solve the problem.

We also discovered that the print head was clogging easily after only a days' printing. I had originally thought that the ink weakness and pooling was caused by it not being dense enough, but it appears the opposite was happening ... the ink was so thick that it would settle very rapidly in the tanks and form a sludge, which eventually grew enough to get sucked into the ink lines. Hence the clogged nozzles.

Luckily we managed to get an emergency overnight delivery of US Screen white from a dealer here in Canada (at a reasonable price despite the extra shipping cost).

So, we inserted the cleaning cartridges, ran a couple of power cleans, let that sit overnight, ran a couple more power cleans the next morning, drained the ink tanks and washed them out completely, and refilled the ink lines with new ink.

Things seem quite good now, so we're crossing our fingers that we can get thru this print run with no further problems. Nozzle checks for white are not quite perfect, but they're certainly good enough for now. PrinterJockey has proven to be very useful in this situation.

To their credit, the original dealer is sending a replacement bottle of ink, so they appear to be stepping up to make things right. It'll be a while before we can test the replacement, however.

These are the things that are sent to test us, to "separate the men from the boys" so to speak. Fortunately we are not intimidated by detailed technical work on the printer and not the least bit afraid to make technical decisions on the fly. It helps me understand that DTG printing is not for the weak at heart!


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## sunnydayz (Jun 22, 2007)

It sounds like it was either a bad batch of white or maybe even the old white. I know the old white was alot thicker and would build quite a sludge in the bottom of the bottle. Its been along time since I have heard of any bad white ink out there, but it can happen if the distributor lets it sit to long without shaking it. I'm glad it got taken care of for you


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## Sunro (Apr 19, 2008)

sunnydayz said:


> ...... I know the old white was a lot thicker and would build quite a sludge in the bottom of the bottle.


That must be why, when I looked at the Kiosk during the PrintWear Show last summer, I noticed a magnetic stirring device under the white ink tank.

We seem to have jumped into this business during an ink transition period. I'd love to know if the rumored new formula from DuPont will actually be better (especially on polyester blends).

We have discovered that when we switched from an Epson 4800 to 4880 printer (that's another story, with a happy ending), that it seems to squirt less ink, period. We find ourselves having to lay down an extra pass of white on very dark shirts, even with good ink. I wonder if the nozzles are smaller? I do know that the print head is different.


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## csquared (Sep 8, 2006)

I don't think you should be getting less ink from the 4880, to my knowledge the main change to this printhead is the Teflon coating


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## sunnydayz (Jun 22, 2007)

Sunro said:


> That must be why, when I looked at the Kiosk during the PrintWear Show last summer, I noticed a magnetic stirring device under the white ink tank.


That was one of my deciding factors when purchasing my HM1, I wanted every advantage I could get with the white ink  The agitator works really great.


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