# Are there any dye sublimation that can be done on dark shirts?



## dchandler74

I am looking for dye sublimation that can be done on dark shirts. Are there any such process? I have not found any myself but thought this is the best place to look?
Thanks
David


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## Riderz Ready

The simple is no - The only way you get a dye sublimated black shirt is a cut and sew processhttp://www.podiumpaintball.net/shirts


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## charles95405

Previous post is correct. You cannot use dye sub on dark...reason being the process bonds or 'dyes' the polyester fabric. So if you try to dye a dark shirt green.....ain't gonna work!..There are several companies that have light pastels that work reasonably well...but no darks


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## skdave

We start with white and dye sub the whole shirt any color you want at the same time we press your image on the front and or the back.
We use a 40"x65" press to do this.
PM me you want to here more.


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## MVP J

skdave said:


> We start with white and dye sub the whole shirt any color you want at the same time we press your image on the front and or the back.
> We use a 40"x65" press to do this.
> PM me you want to here more.


Is this the only way it can be done on dark shirts? I play softball and although I didn't ask anyone, I swear I saw dark garments with dye-sub images. They didn't look like it was a transfer either, looked just like the garment, no hand. And yes, they were dry-fit type shirts.


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## Riderz Ready

MVP J said:


> Is this the only way it can be done on dark shirts? I play softball and although I didn't ask anyone, I swear I saw dark garments with dye-sub images. They didn't look like it was a transfer either, looked just like the garment, no hand. And yes, they were dry-fit type shirts.


Most softball jerseys are done via dye sublimation. The softball market typically has two products for teams to select from. First are pre made white shirts with logos, etc. pressed onto them and second is full dye sub shirts which are done by via cut and sew. The dark, full color softball shirts are done via this method - cut and sew. The jersey maker takes white fabric - creates the design, presses, cuts out the fabric and sews it together. We have some examples on our site and you can also visit www.itsgametimedesigns.com and www.getmojorgear.com who deal specifically with softball/baseball jerseys.


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## VinnyYak

dchandler74 said:


> I am looking for dye sublimation that can be done on dark shirts. Are there any such process? I have not found any myself but thought this is the best place to look?
> Thanks
> David


Technically you can dye sub a dark shirt if it's polyester. But, but, but, you will hardly see the design or image. It's just like spray painting grafitti on a wall. You choose a light colored wall. Use white paint on a dark wall. Unfortunately there's no white sublimation ink. Is there? Inkjet printers can't print white either.


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## MVP J

On-line Jerseys said:


> Most softball jerseys are done via dye sublimation. The softball market typically has two products for teams to select from. First are pre made white shirts with logos, etc. pressed onto them and second is full dye sub shirts which are done by via cut and sew. The dark, full color softball shirts are done via this method - cut and sew. The jersey maker takes white fabric - creates the design, presses, cuts out the fabric and sews it together. We have some examples on our site and you can also visit www.itsgametimedesigns.com and www.getmojorgear.com who deal specifically with softball/baseball jerseys.


Thanks for the info. Couldn't open the 2 links but saw your samples...very cool! The whole cut & sew part (if I am thinking of it correctly) seems like a ton of work. I assume you would charge quite a bit more for that as opposed to the easier, light colored garments?


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## Riderz Ready

MVP J said:


> Thanks for the info. Couldn't open the 2 links but saw your samples...very cool! The whole cut & sew part (if I am thinking of it correctly) seems like a ton of work. I assume you would charge quite a bit more for that as opposed to the easier, light colored garments?


 
To us it is easier to do a cut and sew custom shirt then to to do a double side premade shirt and actually does not cost any more. This is why the market is exploding. Custom sports apparel, low run custom apparel designers, etc are all just now learning the power and flexibility that dye sub offers. 

Sorry about the bad links - here the are corrected
www.getmojogear.com
www.itsgametimedesign.com


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## MVP J

On-line Jerseys said:


> To us it is easier to do a cut and sew custom shirt then to to do a double side premade shirt and actually does not cost any more. This is why the market is exploding. Custom sports apparel, low run custom apparel designers, etc are all just now learning the power and flexibility that dye sub offers.
> 
> Sorry about the bad links - here the are corrected
> www.getmojogear.com
> www.itsgametimedesign.com


Yeah, I have definitely noticed the trend (especially in athletics) going towards the dry-fit shirts. The t-shirt uniforms are almost becoming a thing of the past..never thought that would happen. I guess I'll have to search youtube or something to get a visual of the cut & sew method. I was suprised to hear you say it is easier than a pre-made garment.


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## cristymariel

Hi, I saw this dark purple t-shirt on urbanoutfitters. 

UrbanOutfitters.com > Sublimated Scoop Germination Tee

The description says "all over saturated sublimation print", how is this done?


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## Riderz Ready

They took a white shirt and pressed it using a large format press like a Maxi Press. If you zoom in on the collar you can see some void areas. They are also careful not to show around the arm pits where there would be consideridable voids (white areas). I simply do not get the concept of pressing premade shirts. They have voids and really are no cheaper to make then a full cut and sew shirt. Maybe if you are having them mass produced overseas but otherwise I question it.


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## freebrd1230

What do you mean you cut and sew??


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## D.Evo.

freebrd1230 said:


> What do you mean you cut and sew??



White fabric is cut into panels, printed with the design and then sewn together.
As opposed to decorating a ready-made shirt.


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## freebrd1230

how do you do that is there somewhare that I can see how the cut and sew is done?


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## skdave

We to find cut and sew easier than printing a ready made shirt. We have cut and sewed thousands of shirts in the last year and really are happy with the results.
The price is very close to printing a ready made shirt and the min. is very low.PM me for details.


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## freebrd1230

I'm just starting out in this bussines. I just lost my job so I'm trying start my own business.
Do you have any suggestion on how should go about starting
Thanks


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## skdave

Out source everything. Spend your time and money selling.


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## MVP J

It would be cool if someone had a link to a video of how the cut & sew process is done. I have looked all over youtube and found nothing. A visual would help b/c I am just not understanding how cut & sew can be easier to do than a pre- made shirt??


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## freebrd1230

I agree with you


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## Riderz Ready

If you ae speaking of a single sided design surely a premade is easier. If you expand that to front, back and sleeves then a cut and sew is easier. In a cut and sew you can do 10-15 shirts per hour depending on size style.


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## charles95405

easiest explanation I know:

Transfers (various kinds) sit on top of the garment and the transfer is made or printed..sometimes outsources and applied using a commercial heat press.

sublimation is not a transfer but a process that actually dyes the POLYESTER fabric...will not work with cotton or dark material

Cut and sew...the material is decorated by one of several methods and THEN sewn as garment..normally done with a big operation...not working out of the back bedroom or garage


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## Riderz Ready

skdave said:


> Out source everything. Spend your time and money selling.


 
Well said - biggest mistake people make in business is creating a product before selling it. sell it then you can make it.


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## DAGuide

The concept of cut and sew is instead of using a completed garment (i.e. pieces of fabric sewn together), you start off using rolls or sheets of fabric. Then print, transfer or sublimate to the individual pieces. Once you are done with the printing and curing process, you then take the individual pieces (front panel, back panel, two sleeves, collar and other potential pieces) and you sew them together to make a garment. The concept of cut and sew is particularly attractive to dye sub customers that want a dark garment. Since dye sub is a light transfer process (can't print on light color on a dark garment), you can't really do dye sub on a black garment. So what cut and sew operations will do is take white fabric and print the entire pieces with ink unless you want a part to be white on the garment. This way it makes the garment look like it started off as a dark garment.

The only draw backs to cut and sew are that you typically would not do this for short-runs unless you are getting high dollar per a garment and that you may need to find an operation that will have a garment pattern that matches the type of garments your customer base wants (i.e. women's cut, paint ball / motorcycle jerseys,...).

Hope that explains the process of cut and sew.

Mark


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## skdave

I will post a few pictures tomorrow.


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## Riderz Ready

A good place to start in cut and sew for people who do not have WF printer or a maxiPress is womens sports wear. You can do bathing suits, stretch workout shorts, etc with a typical printer and press. The key to cut and sew is professional seamstresses with the right equipment and experience in poly stretch material.


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## freebrd1230

*my colors are all washed out*

How do I make my colors vibrant and not washed out.I don't know what kind of ink I have they came allready fill in refillable cartridges.


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## Riderz Ready

There are so many variables that could cause it. Dye sublimation is not as simple as some would like to make it out to be. If you are just starting you need to hook up with a vendor that can hold your hand. You have to get and set printer profiles correctly, make sure you are using the right color pallete, and the list goes on and on.


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## MVP J

DAGuide said:


> The concept of cut and sew is instead of using a completed garment (i.e. pieces of fabric sewn together), you start off using rolls or sheets of fabric. Then print, transfer or sublimate to the individual pieces. Once you are done with the printing and curing process, you then take the individual pieces (front panel, back panel, two sleeves, collar and other potential pieces) and you sew them together to make a garment. The concept of cut and sew is particularly attractive to dye sub customers that want a dark garment. Since dye sub is a light transfer process (can't print on light color on a dark garment), you can't really do dye sub on a black garment. So what cut and sew operations will do is take white fabric and print the entire pieces with ink unless you want a part to be white on the garment. This way it makes the garment look like it started off as a dark garment.
> 
> The only draw backs to cut and sew are that you typically would not do this for short-runs unless you are getting high dollar per a garment and that you may need to find an operation that will have a garment pattern that matches the type of garments your customer base wants (i.e. women's cut, paint ball / motorcycle jerseys,...).
> 
> Hope that explains the process of cut and sew.
> 
> Mark


Thanks Mark. That is kind of what I was thinking but obviously this is more difficult to business owners like myself who run the business from home. I don't see how it would be possible for me to do cut & sew without subbing it out.


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## skdave

We are please to announce we have removed the minimum on our CUT AND SEW LIne.
You can buy as few as 1 [one].
PM me with questions please

Movie on you tube later this week.


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## DAGuide

MVP J said:


> Thanks Mark. That is kind of what I was thinking but obviously this is more difficult to business owners like myself who run the business from home. I don't see how it would be possible for me to do cut & sew without subbing it out.


Well, I know there is at least one guy that does motorcycle jerseys out of his garage in southern CA. However, the investment into the equipment and the electrical setup requires you to do a ton of garments (or signage, banners,...) in order to get your ROI back. For these reasons, most people just outsource this type of work. There are two different companies in this post that do this type of work. Why not just contact one of them and have them do it for you? This way you can still offer the services to your customers and not have to invest in the equipment. Much less risk and you can still make some money!

Mark


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## vctradingcubao

skdave said:


> We are please to announce we have removed the minimum on our CUT AND SEW LIne.
> You can buy as few as 1 [one].


wow, congrats dave. Who's doing the sewing, if I may ask?


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## skdave

We are do all the work in the good old USA.
No hidden cost just one at a time.


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## vctradingcubao

Yeah. That's why I was impressed with Mark (online jerseys) with their cut-sew costing to be almost similar to printing a ready made tee. My thinking is that if it's a one or two piece order (and different sizes), it's almost like asking a tailor to sew a shirt for you, and this definitely means the customer should pay a premium


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## skdave

There will be no premium paid with our new cut and sew no min. offer.


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## freebird1963

I don't see why if you do the cut n sew in house why you would need miniums anyhow. Unless you do custom fitting. A XL pattern size doesn't change from order to order does it ? If you only have one sewing machine then it might make some difference I guess.
No screens are burnt so you don't have that labor expense. You print a graphic, press it , cut n sew it , ship it. No extra work for one or 15. I mean whats the difference if you do 15 orders of one shirt or a order of 15 shirts with different sizes ?

Is anyone willing to break down the cut n sew costs ? I am interested in that cuz most quotes I got were in the 25-30 dollar range from guys on this forum to do cut n sew. 

Thanks and look forward to seeing that video. 

Mark


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## DAGuide

Just like anything else, there is more prep time (getting the artwork ready in the template size for your garment size / model / style, sending the file to the RIP, verifying the colors are correct, setting up the sewing machine with correct thread color,...) and costs (it is not cheap to fire up a Maxi-Press if you are not using it 100% of the time, cost to have the sewer there when not being used,...) than most people realize. Also, you have all the customer contact time for a one-off order as you typically do with larger runs. So it does not take the same overall time to do 1 cut and sew garment as it does for multiples. The same things can be applied for several other decorating techniques (i.e. dtg printing, small format dye sub,...).

I am sure the contract guys can go into even more detail. Just some things to consider.

Mark


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## Riderz Ready

I would rather do 50 team jerseys at $40 then 50 individual jerseys at $50. The amount of TIME it takes to do an individual jersey versus group jerseys is significant. If one does not account for their time then there really is no cost difference.


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## vctradingcubao

Yes, my points exactly. I agree with the two Marks (DA & On-line).
Plus, most of the time, we now do a small test print specially if the artwork is a customer supplied jpeg.
Art preparation, or jpeg file tweaking takes a lot of time too, and I also feel that the electrical consumption when pressing a 1 piece 20x30 fabric is the almost same as when you press 10 pieces.
So it's definitely costly to do a 1 piece order.

On another point, I was also thinking that a 1 piece PRINT-CUT-SEW project should cost more than a 1 piece all-over printing-pressing of a ready made polyester shirt.


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## skdave

Of course I agree about doing 50 team shirts for $40. rather than 50 one offs for $50 each.

But I think a little differently. Todays 50 one offs will be tomorrows 50 team deals. I don't mind the short term pain for the long term gain of building my Business. Maybe I should up my one off price to $30.00 each. Just My opinion.


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## skdave

vctradingcubao said:


> Yes, my points exactly. I agree with the two Marks (DA & On-line).
> Plus, most of the time, we now do a small test print specially if the artwork is a customer supplied jpeg.
> Art preparation, or jpeg file tweaking takes a lot of time too, and I also feel that the electrical consumption when pressing a 1 piece 20x30 fabric is the almost same as when you press 10 pieces.
> So it's definitely costly to do a 1 piece order.
> 
> On another point, I was also thinking that a 1 piece PRINT-CUT-SEW project should cost more than a 1 piece all-over printing-pressing of a ready made polyester shirt.


We print more the one offs when we fire up our maxi press. Flags, table cloths, oversize prints. We gang print.


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## iT

vctradingcubao said:


> . I was also thinking that a 1 piece PRINT-CUT-SEW project should cost more than a 1 piece all-over printing-pressing of a ready made polyester shirt.


Although I'm not sure what it costs for a ready made polyester shirt with all over prints pressed on the front and back, I agree with this thought based on the quotes I've seen for a single cut and sew. I just don't see how they can cost the same, but maybe we're missing something.


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## freebird1963

I really don't see the difference in pressing 50 of the same design or 50 different. They are cut and sews so your pressing onto a square of fabric or a rectangle. So how is the time different ? 
If you have 10M/15L/10XL/15XXL how is that less time than 50 different ones of the same requirements ? 

VCT: If your redoing jpg artwork and not getting paid then you should reconsider your artwork policies. 
EVERY company I have looked at required the artwork to be at print size, certain resolutions and specific color setup and file type(s).
Not the fact your doing one shirt or a 50 same design shirt order.

I don't think its not gonna cost much if any more to do one in electricity cuz you will turn the machine off sooner than the 50 but that can be overcome with some planning.
Were I work now we powder coat. We only do colors on monday (white/red/beige/bronze/green etc) and paint black the rest of the week. So if you order a color on tues you aren't getting it to the following week. See that takes care of your firing up to do one shirt. You do them at a specific time/date of the week. And let your customer know. And thats if you can't fit a small order in between your big jobs. Either way theres work arounds.

And I agree the one order or 3 order may lead to bigger orders down the road. Maybe not but turning it away definately gives your competitor the shot at getting future orders. Not everyone has teams or needs that call for 10 shirts or 12 shirts etc. Your losing that business plus any possible down the road for what I see as no real good reason. Other than the mind set that its not worth your effort to do it. (which is not bad either sometimes depending on the customer and their demands)

But if I knew it all or had all the answers I'd be a consultant and make the real money ! 

Anxious to see the cut n sew video. Hope it shows the printing/pressing and sewing.

Mark


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## pjeanl5754

The cut and sew process is very similar to the way your mom may have take a part of sissors and cut out the pattern pieces to a garment and then taken it to the sewing machine and sew them together. The cut and sew industry is similar except we cut a couple of hundred at one time by stacking the fabric and cutting it with a piece of equipment that vibrates a long razor blade knife up and down until it has cut through the entire stack, then it is sent to the machines where a group of sewers work together to put pieces together until all of the entire garment is finished. That's the quick version of a much more complicated process.


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## Riderz Ready

There is a huge difference in doing 50 individual versus a team of 50 in time cost. There is a lot more to procesing a order then the time it takes to press. There are a dozen steps outside the pressing process. Take one of them - packing and shipping. Calculate the time to pack 50 jerseys in a box and ship to an address versus the time it would take you to pack address and ship 50 individual jerseys or shirts. It is huge. Let say it is an hour. Do you know how much profit you lose by not doing jerseys in that hour? - For us it is a minimum of $450. That is one single factor. You really can not do single shirts/jerseys and be truly profitable unless you are selling at $55 plus.


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## vctradingcubao

On-line Jerseys said:


> You really can not do single shirts/jerseys and be truly profitable unless you are selling at $55 plus.


I agree... and $55 plus is a premium.. I even feel that it should be $80 for a 1 piece cut and sew order...


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## iT

vctradingcubao said:


> I agree... and $55 plus is a premium.. I even feel that it should be $80 for a 1 piece cut and sew order...



Can you explain this? I don't understand how 1 off cut and sews can cost the same to make as pre-made 1 offs, but require a minimum sale price of $55 to be profitable. It seems like there is a large range between those two numbers. 

As long as your marginal costs to make the cut and sew for the same cost as a pre-made are accurate, why would you need a minimum $55 sale price to be profitable? Is it just a question of how much margin different manufacturers want?

Not saying I disagree. Just trying to understand how the numbers from these two statements mesh. Thanks.


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## vctradingcubao

1 more consideration why there should be a premium is that:
not everyone can sew. It's a skill and I feel it's a special talent.
I feel it's almost the same as asking a dress maker (for a simple gown) or a tailor (for a simple pants) to make something (1 piece) for you. 
A gown and a suit are definitely expensive.


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## Riderz Ready

The hurdle to get by is premade shirts and cut and sew are totally different markets and hard to compare. For us the actul cost to make a shirt versus buy a shirt is $2.00. The issue is not cost but what the market will pay. If you are running a full time business and not simply doing this to generate some additional income I believe you would be hard pressed to make it selling t-shirts. Most people are not willing to pay $25+ for a t-shirt unless it is branded. For teams we work with that want shirts we even get them screened in many cases. The crazy part of this market is you can add a couple inches to a sleeve, a zipper on the front, a Under Armour like material which will only cost $3.00 additonal and you now have a $55-$65 item. With that said can you afford to make a single shirt and sell for $25 when you can make 25 "jerseys" that has a cost of only $3.00 more ea but sells for $55 and up? 

It is not so much about what an item cost to make as what you can sell it for -


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## iT

On-line Jerseys said:


> The hurdle to get by is premade shirts and cut and sew are totally different markets and hard to compare. It is not so much about what an item cost to make as what you can sell it for -



Thanks for the explanation on how cut and sews are different from pressing pre-mades. They do sound sort of like comparing apples and oranges. 

One thing I didn't get earlier on the cost side was how 10-15 cut and sews per hour relates to pre-mades. Is 10-15 what 1 Sewing Operator could sew versus whatever 1 Pre-Made Worker could press or would 10-15 require several cut and sew Workers per hour (Printer / Presser, Cutter, Sewer) compared to just 1 pre-made Worker (a Printer / Presser)?

Hopefully, that question makes sense. The posts on this thread have been great.


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## Riderz Ready

iT said:


> One thing I didn't get earlier on the cost side was how 10-15 cut and sews per hour relates to pre-mades. Is 10-15 what 1 Sewing Operator could sew versus whatever 1 Pre-Made Worker could press or would 10-15 require several cut and sew Workers per hour (Printer / Presser, Cutter, Sewer) compared to just 1 pre-made Worker (a Printer / Presser)?
> 
> Hopefully, that question makes sense. The posts on this thread have been great.


Think of the cutting/sewing as one cost. This way you can compare the cost of the item to the cost of buying a premade from Vapor Apparel or one of their distributors. Whether it takes one or ten people makes no difference. The only thing that matters is what does it cost to make the item. For us it cost $2-3 more make the shirt versus buy the shirt. 

As stated before we can press 10-14 shirts/jerseys an hour which is faster then we can do premades that have fronts, backs, sleeves as we we are pressing before the shirt is made thus have no alignment issues to worry about, no blow through issues to be concerned, etc. Simply lay fabric down, paper with design on top of fabric and press and repeat. 

We will do simple front designs on premades for existing clients as they are fairly easy. Once you get double sided and have to deal with all the blow through paper, alignment issues, etc it isnt cost effective for us.

Hope that makes sense.


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## uncletee

you can print on sublaflock from johnson plastics then cut and heat press to anything, we use this on short run jobs for crest or pocket sizes, worth a try, good luck uncletee


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## dt

on-line-jersey, 

I think you have a maxi press, so do you sub cut pieces one after one or you sub a mosaic of piece at the same time and then cut each piece after? If you sub mosaic of pieces did you find a way to cut it fast?
I have no idea how the production run in a organise sublimation manufacture could you explain the process
of cut and sew because i think we are doing something wrong, cutting each piece is so long any suggestion?


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## Riderz Ready

dt said:


> on-line-jersey,
> 
> I think you have a maxi press, so do you sub cut pieces one after one or you sub a mosaic of piece at the same time and then cut each piece after? If you sub mosaic of pieces did you find a way to cut it fast?
> I have no idea how the production run in a organise sublimation manufacture could you explain the process
> of cut and sew because i think we are doing something wrong, cutting each piece is so long any suggestion?


There are two ways most people do it - some cut the fabric into the pieces then press. We actually just press on the bulk fabric then cut out the pieces as the next piece is pressed. It takes someone only about 30 seconds, if that, to cut the design from the fabric thus no time is wasted as it is done at the same time the press is workig on the next piece.


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## skdave

Cut and sew is so preferred my us that we discourage the oversize pressing on premade shirts we do as well.
When we removed the Minimum on cut and sew and lowered the price, our clients have really increased. This works out for the folks just starting out with a designer clothing line that cannot afford to invest in a large inventory of each design. Remember Polyester no longer has to be shiny, it can have a cotton look and feel.


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## cap guy

Check out Juto, in the vender list they have productfor dark but its expencive!


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## iT

skdave said:


> Remember Polyester no longer has to be shiny, it can have a cotton look and feel.


What options are there for a cotton look and feel?


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## Riderz Ready

iT said:


> What options are there for a cotton look and feel?


Vapor has a cotton like to feel to it but you need to be very careful to know your market and not select fabric based on your personal desire. Our experience is that adult men will not pay $30+ for a t-shirt - period. Women and "tweens" will. The vast majority of designer shirts targeted to this demographic is very light cotton shirts. It is almost distressed. If you use the standard Vapor fabric it will be way to heavy to attract this crowd.


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## iT

Thanks, Mark. Good info. Will your male customers pay $30+ for a fully sublimated t-shirt with a micro poly performance feel instead of a cotton feel?

skdave,
Is Vapor the same cotton look/feel fabric you meant?


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## skdave

IT
We use Vapor Fabric as well, but we have other options that we are in development. I will have more on this later.
Dave 
[email protected]


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## Riderz Ready

iT said:


> Thanks, Mark. Good info. Will your male customers pay $30+ for a fully sublimated t-shirt with a micro poly performance feel instead of a cotton feel?
> 
> skdave,
> Is Vapor the same cotton look/feel fabric you meant?


When you say "male" if you mean someone over 30 years of age then no they will, in general, not buy a $30 t-shirt regardless of the fabric. Men that age are buying shirts versus the design. Tweens and women buy designs not shirts if that makes sense. 

As far as fabric Vapor has some great fabric for under aromour like shirts, womens wear and sports apparel - we use them for everything but our swimwear fabric. The problem vendors like Vapor have is that if they made a light weight version of the basic t it would be too opaque to sell as a premade shirt. The Phenom is a perfect example. We always got push back on that shirt becuase of how opaque it was yet the same fabric fully dye sub'd is awesome. To me if you are going to deal in high end full dye sub t-shirts you need to find a fabric that is a light weight version of the basic t fabric. Kids will not wear a heavy t-shirt these days. In the mean time you would be better served to do full dye on micro poly mesh that the phenom is made from. I would suggest calling Jackson at Vapor - he is very helpful and might be able to find something if they do not have it in stock.


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## iT

Thanks Dave and Mark. Appreciate the knowledge.


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## dice0126

I want to try cut and sew with small amount. I would like to know where to get 100% poly performance fabric.

Thank you in advance.


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## freebird1963

dice0126 said:


> I want to try cut and sew with small amount. I would like to know where to get 100% poly performance fabric.
> 
> Thank you in advance.


You can buy the vapor apparel fabric from Conde and other places. Go to the Vapar site and they list their distrubitors.

Or to test and try before buying go to JoAnns and get some polyester fabric and try it out that way.


Good Luck
mark


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