# Why do we care so much about the cost of dye sub ink?



## DAGuide (Oct 2, 2006)

There are a ton of posts on this forum about the cost of dye sub ink and the Sawgrass patent. In fact, there are several comments from people that feel very strongly in opposition to the patent rights and look for ways, whether legal or not, to find a cheaper alternative for ink. I started to think about this and had a sort of revelation when answering this post - http://www.t-shirtforums.com/dye-sublimation/t52930.html. Why do we care about the cost of dye sub ink when it is a fraction of the total cost of an item? 


Let’s use an example. You have an order for 24 shirts and it has 4 colors in the design that is 10” x 8” in size. Here is an example of the “approximate” cost of doing this job via screen printing and sublimation. Please note this does not count labor, investment money, electricity,…and other items.


* Screen Printing – around $5.00 for the film ($1.25 a sheet), $6.00 for screen cost/tape/cleaning chemicals, $4.00 ink ($0.16 per a shirt). This is approximately $0.63 per a shirt without the cost of shirt ($1.50). Thus the consumable cost is 30% of the total job cost minus labor.


* Sublimation Transfers – around $0.75 for ink and paper on an Epson 4800, around $5.00 or so for a dye sub shirt. Thus the consumable cost is 13% of the total job cost minus labor.


What I am trying to state is why everyone is focused on cost of the sublimation ink when the other variable costs (the blank imprintables) are much higher than compared to screen printing. Trying to get a 50%+ discount on sublimation ink by violating the patent could add up over time, but why not focus on finding cheaper alternatives for blank imprintables that could lead to higher profits in your pocket.


Just something to consider in my opinion.


Mark


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## plan b (Feb 21, 2007)

I agree I would like to see the price of substrates go down,, I think most people consider the action of sawgrass on the border of bully without competitive commerce the trap is layed, when someone feels traped then you look for different means of escape, so what it boils down to is kinda like microsoft was for some time making people traped, but as we all can see we mostly all use the same product day in and day out. So when the patent runs its course and its close ,I think ,plans by a lot of ink people are being layed now to saturate the market. Did I loose you? oh well lost myself for a while


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## ashamutt (Feb 22, 2008)

DAGuide said:


> There are a ton of posts on this forum about the cost of dye sub ink and the Sawgrass patent. In fact, there are several comments from people that feel very strongly in opposition to the patent rights and look for ways, whether legal or not, to find a cheaper alternative for ink. I started to think about this and had a sort of revelation when answering this post - http://www.t-shirtforums.com/dye-sublimation/t52930.html. Why do we care about the cost of dye sub ink when it is a fraction of the total cost of an item?
> 
> 
> Let’s use an example. You have an order for 24 shirts and it has 4 colors in the design that is 10” x 8” in size. Here is an example of the “approximate” cost of doing this job via screen printing and sublimation. Please note this does not count labor, investment money, electricity,…and other items.
> ...


Great point!

The ink prices have always scared me off!!! LOL!
I have never thought of it this way before....I am glad that you posted the "break down" in cost....I might start "subing" soon!!!! 

Could you or someone else on here break down the cost for other substrates??
tiles...mugs...things of that nature???

Like what is the ink cost on doing a mug ? a tile?......


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## DAGuide (Oct 2, 2006)

ashamutt said:


> Great point!
> 
> The ink prices have always scared me off!!! LOL!
> I have never thought of it this way before....I am glad that you posted the "break down" in cost....I might start "subing" soon!!!!
> ...


Check out just some of these sites for prices on different substrates:
- Conde Systems - Sublimation, CrystalMPrints, Transfer Paper, Heat Presses, ChromaBlast Ink - Order Online!
- RPL Supplies, Inc. - The Source for Heat Presses, Transfer Paper, Photo Mugs, Inkjet Sublimation, Photo Gifts and More for the Photo Gift Industry
- Heat Transfer, Dye Sublimation and Engraving Equipment & Supplies Source
- Heat transfer paper, tutorials and heat presses to start a business
- Transfer Paper, Heat Press, Ink Cartridges, Copier Toner - Coastal Business Supplies
- Johnson Plastics - Distributor of engravable plastics and dye sublimation materials.
- Heat Press, Transfer Paper, Sublimation Ink & More!
- Screen Printing Supplies, Screen Printing Equipment & Inks 
- Screen Printing Equipment, Screen Printing Supplies, Sublimation and Direct-to-Garment Printing by LAWSON


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## joeshaul (Mar 1, 2008)

A lot of people just don't like the whole monopoly idea. I don't think I spend too much on sub inks, it is just a factor in the equation for my end price which eventually gets paid by the customer. I only had one real dealing with Sawgrass, and they handled it to my satisfaction, so I can't say that they lack support. If they supply the product and the support and I'm able to sell the result, I see no reason to complain.


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## COEDS (Oct 4, 2006)

joeshaul said:


> A lot of people just don't like the whole monopoly idea. I don't think I spend too much on sub inks, it is just a factor in the equation for my end price which eventually gets paid by the customer. I only had one real dealing with Sawgrass, and they handled it to my satisfaction, so I can't say that they lack support. If they supply the product and the support and I'm able to sell the result, I see no reason to complain.


I agree, I don't like to be told who to buy my ink from. I started in Sublimation a few years ago, I bought ink from a great guy and his ink worked great with no profile. I liked the way it looked and held up. I liked the idea of buying from a little guy trying to earn a living. I then found that the big bully(sawgrass) came after him and threatened to sue him for all he had.I think this entire issue is ubfair and violates the my rights to purchase from whom I want. ..... JB


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## DAGuide (Oct 2, 2006)

plan b said:


> So when the patent runs its course and its close ,I think ,plans by a lot of ink people are being layed now to saturate the market.


I am not sure if this is going to be a good thing or bad thing. If you have more inks and less consistency, then you open the door to making more mistakes (i.e. you waste more of the costly substrates). So having more quality inks to choose from would be better. That is what I was referring to in this post - http://www.t-shirtforums.com/dye-sub...on/t52930.html. Just my thoughts.

Mark


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## sid (Oct 6, 2007)

The cost of ink is an issue but being a fairly big user and I buy from more than one vendor to spread the wealth around to keep the market healthy. We may have to by from a few sources but at least you have a very consistent product. We do a lot of custom importing of our own products except Tee shirts too many SKUs to deal with. The marketing of shirts is tough as soon as say poly they run, as soon as you say lights and not darks it's a hard sell. I think companies like Haines and Vapor should start doing some market analysis of what the street wants and it a nice cut and with Vapor a better selection of colors. Especially womens. Really need some help there. Cost is another issue is they can bring the costs down they will get far more penetration into the market. Its a big draw back for big orders. We get some pretty large quotes but our shirt costs kill any order. Can we compete with silk screeners? Absolutely! Far better imaging, the ability to do variable data with no need for set up changes. It's the cost and limited variety of imprintables that hinder the sublimation industry its not the ink.


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## CUSTOM UK (Jun 28, 2008)

*On EBay here in the UK, it would appear Sawgrass is petty enough to have people's listings removed for small format printers, if there is any mention of sublimation. This even applies to folks that are selling small format printers privately, that have bulk feeders fitted. Unless it is proven they have Sawgrass ink in them. Many recently relisted items from both private and trade sellers have actually had to state this in their listings.*

*I would never put money in the hands of that company, for that very reason. I source my inks elsewhere at a far lower price. I get excellent results and they don't clog my printer. I don't indulge in restrictive trade practices, nor do I expect my suppliers to.  *

*Like 'Sid' in the post above, attempting to sell tees you can only produce in light colours, is difficult enough. I have to use cut vinyl to use on darks and cottons. I would be far happier with ink companies, if they could find a viable solution to using sublimation on dark fabrics. That truly would benefit ALL of us.*


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## John Thomson (Mar 24, 2008)

DREAMGLASS said:


> *I would never put money in the hands of that company, for that very reason. I source my inks elsewhere at a far lower price. I get excellent results and they don't clog my printer. I don't indulge in restrictive trade practices, nor do I expect my suppliers to.  *


I do the same and have had no problems with my ink.

The cost of Sawgrass ink is not really the issue.......it is the fact that it is kept artificially high, purely to increase profit margins, using the Courts to enforce their monoploy is what stickes in my throat.

Imagine if I could close down other t shirt and mug printers just because they offered the same items cheaper than me??????????


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## MotoskinGraphix (Apr 28, 2006)

Competition creates a healthy market with inks and substrates. Dye-Sub is more profound in the higher end custom apparel market more than the 15$ tee business.


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## CUSTOM UK (Jun 28, 2008)

*Ink manufacturers need to remember that most big businesses, were small businesses once.*

*Most small businesses and start ups, need to shop around for good deals, so their business can grow and prosper. They seldom have the available capital of the bigger companies. *

*Competition is good for everyone.*


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## DAGuide (Oct 2, 2006)

See, the majority of the posts are now going back to the whole reason why I made the first post. I understand why some people feel the way they do about Sawgrass. Right or wrong, that is your personally feelings. But in the end, spending the time to find an alternative ink (and not counting the potential legal issues that may arise in doing so) just does not seem to be the best way to raise your profits. Why not spend time outsourcing a lower cost alternative blank imprintable? I personally would rather see a 20% decrease in the blank imprintable than a 50% decrease in the cost of ink. This would equate to more profits and you are not violating any laws (whether you believe them to be appropriate or not).

Just making an observation from a non-emotional position. I will let this thread fade away. Everyone have a great week.

Mark


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## CUSTOM UK (Jun 28, 2008)

*Something constructive has come out of this Mark. Followed the link from your above post, to your perfect transfer tool. that's one handy gizmo. Do you have any distributors in Europe?*


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## MotoskinGraphix (Apr 28, 2006)

DAGuide said:


> See, the majority of the posts are now going back to the whole reason why I made the first post. I understand why some people feel the way they do about Sawgrass. Right or wrong, that is your personally feelings. But in the end, spending the time to find an alternative ink (and not counting the potential legal issues that may arise in doing so) just does not seem to be the best way to raise your profits. Why not spend time outsourcing a lower cost alternative blank imprintable? I personally would rather see a 20% decrease in the blank imprintable than a 50% decrease in the cost of ink. This would equate to more profits and you are not violating any laws (whether you believe them to be appropriate or not).
> 
> Just making an observation from a non-emotional position. I will let this thread fade away. Everyone have a great week.
> 
> Mark


I would love a cheaper blank or ink or both no question. I just dont think that is the actual market at this time for dye-sub printing. 

There are companies doing killer printing in the higher end market where the finished product is in the 100$-200$ per unit range. 

Those companies can afford the inks and the expensive blanks and they arent buying 4.50$ Hanes or Vapor gear to print on.


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## DAGuide (Oct 2, 2006)

DREAMGLASS said:


> *Something constructive has come out of this Mark. Followed the link from your above post, to your perfect transfer tool. that's one handy gizmo. Do you have any distributors in Europe?*


Sorry, no distributors that stock the Perfect Transfers Tool in the UK. I do ship them to Europe all the time. In fact, one just showed up in Sweden earlier this week for a board member. Check your PM.

Mark


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## Susie (Oct 19, 2007)

* Sublimation Transfers – around $0.75 for ink and paper on an Epson 4800, around $5.00 or so for a dye sub shirt. Thus the consumable cost is 13% of the total job cost minus labor.


Mark[/quote]

Hi Mark,
Just wondering where you get the .75 price with paper? We had a price discussion a while back with people estimating their printing at 2 or 3 cents a square inch. 

I'm running an Epson 7800 with the big carts but I don't think I'm doing it for less than a cent an inch (incl. paper).

Just wondered what everyone's thoughts are on this. If the price really is higher per square inch, it certainly would play a part in the game, especially for those with smaller systems/more expensive ink. 

I use Sawgrass too, of course, and have had multiple problems with leaking carts and I didn't find their service top notch either. When you have a monopoly you don't need to compete by quality or service. 

I am confident someone will come along soon and invent white ink and lay down the polyester at the same time so we can print on anything - I just hope it won't be Sawgrass. (Well, I can always wish, anyway!)


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## CarlT (May 23, 2007)

To me it's not the cost per square inch, but the upfront cost of material. It eats into your cash flow.
I buy bulk, but..a lot of folks don't They pay for each cartridge because they do not have the cash flow to put a minimum of $500 up front.
It doesn't matter how much cheaper you can get the substrates, if you don't have the money to buy the ink, your not going to be able to make any products anyway.

As much as I wish Sawgrass had competition, it would help everyone involved.


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## DAGuide (Oct 2, 2006)

Susie said:


> Hi Mark,
> Just wondering where you get the .75 price with paper?


Susie,

The price I came up with is based on using an Epson 4800 printer and sheets of TexPrint XP paper. All Pro model printers have the capability of producing a report on the amount of ink you have used on recent jobs. You just need to figure out what your cost per a ML is and that will tell you the cost of ink for what was dropped down on the dye sub paper. Pretty easy to determie the cost of the paper. But you will also need to add for the cost of running nozzle checks, head cleanings and the periodic spitting all piezo printers do. 

Your price is going to be lower than my price because you are using a large format printer where you can purchase ink in bulk liters. The 17" and below printers are not able to get the ink in this manner. So the price is different. But, the inherent challenges with running an open ink system (leaking cartridges, more clogging) that you see in the dtg side of industry will also come to play when you run a system like yours. But the ink cost is lower and for those that can afford the higher upfront cost of equipment and have the high volume orders... it is worth dealing with the challenges.

Hope this explains things more.

Mark


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## sid (Oct 6, 2007)

Why is it that everyone complains about Sawgrass who owns a patent on their ink and enforces it but you are the first to complain about someone ripping off an artist's design on some of the reviews I read here. A patent is like an artists copyright. 
This is a discussion on cost of ink and imprintables for sublimation. As for David's comment on why we don't have a less expensive shirt to imprint, I disagree. The first company to reduce the cost of the dyesub shirts will totally control the market. I am doing 100 or so Vapor shirts right now and I have to say they are dog ugly. The cut of these shirts is horrific! A paper bag with sleeves. I feel like taking them to a cutting house and having them redone!


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## DAGuide (Oct 2, 2006)

sid said:


> Why is it that everyone complains about Sawgrass who owns a patent on their ink and enforces it but you are the first to complain about someone ripping off an artist's design on some of the reviews I read here. A patent is like an artists copyright.


Nice comparison Sid.


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## CUSTOM UK (Jun 28, 2008)

*Being cost effective doesn't directly equate to having an inferior product. Whilst I fully agree with Sid on the poor design and cut of some sublimation shirts, the biggest problem I have found with sublimation shirts, is that they simply aren't as comfortable to wear as cotton is. To most folks, polyester equates to cheap product. Not sure that a lower price would tempt those all those folks that prefer cotton.*

*I am sure that if someone brought out a decent inkjet transfer, that didn't flake or fade, the market for sublimation shirts would literally die overnight. Whilst sublimation gives fabulous print results when done properly, the product is still on the expensive side. Keeping the costs of both inks and garments down, would ensure that the sublimation garment market would prosper.*


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## COEDS (Oct 4, 2006)

Sid and mark I respect your position on this matter even though, I disagree with you both. A design is a creation thought up and put on a garment, Dye sub ink is something different. The dye sub technology has been around longer than the Sawgrass company has existed, This technology has been around since the 1930's. The Sawgrass ink requires a icc pofile to get the colors correct. I was using a ink that used the epson profile. They were both dye sub ink, but one needed extra help to do the job. I consider them to be different type of ink based on a tecnology that has been around longer than either company. I don't like Monopolies and until now I thought the USA was for free enterprise, but it must be just for the deeper pocket. ..... JB


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## DAGuide (Oct 2, 2006)

JB,

I understand your perspective, but I think you are missing the overall point of this post. If you step back from your existing perception of Sawgrass and look strictly at the cost involved (i.e. forget about patents, lawsuits, monopolies, free trade,...), why are more people not complaining or openly trying to outsource blank imprintables for sublimation? I don't want people to think this is just about shirts. I only used that as an example so we could compare screen printing costs to dye sub costs. I can almost guarantee any shop that their profits (which is what should be the focus) would be greater if you reduced your blank imprintable cost by 20% (maybe even as low as 5% depending on the shop) compared to decreasing your ink cost by 50%.

I only ask you to look at the numbers. For pure educational purposes, do you care to openly discuss your numbers on what your average job is so we can either prove or disapprove my hypothesis?

Mark


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## CUSTOM UK (Jun 28, 2008)

*With some limitations, it is possible to coat your own sublimation blanks, using a readily available fluid. This can work out cheaper and extend your range of products. You don't have the people that produce sublimation blanks screaming 'patent' though.*

*Without competition, one particular ink manufacturer is laughing all the way to the bank.*


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## AustinJeff (May 12, 2007)

sid said:


> Why is it that everyone complains about Sawgrass who owns a patent on their ink and enforces it but you are the first to complain about someone ripping off an artist's design on some of the reviews I read here. A patent is like an artists copyright.


Because patents aren't issued by God. They are issued by a bunch of bureaucrats who answer to a bunch of politicians. Whereas copyrights are generated through the actual creation of a piece, patents are not something inherent to a creation. They are documents created through a system that is, at best, overburdened, inefficient, impractical and inconsistent -- and worst, corrupt.

Many patents that are granted are ridiculous. Big corporations with lots of lawyers get get "rights" that simply are not available to average Americans. If "Joe Smith" had filed a patent for the process of an online checkout using only 1 click, he would have been laughed at. But Amazon does it and it is granted.

Do you really think it is ethically wrong for someone to design a website that allows the customer to check out with one click? In the same way it is wrong to steal a piece of art, claim it as my own, and profit from it's sale?

And while the "One Click" patent is often cited as an example of a bad patent, it is nothing compared to the things I find really outrageous. For example, nearly half of the *human genome* is patented! Not just the process of decoding the genome, or the overall concept of the genome -- your actual genes. Yes, a bunch of corporations own the rights to the very essence of who we are. 

Personally, I don't see any inconsistency or ethical dilemma in supporting some forms of intellectual property rights while opposing others.


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## DAGuide (Oct 2, 2006)

Ok, I am going to withdraw from this thread. It seems that everyone wants to focus on Sawgrass and their business practices. The originial intent was to help show the cost of dye sub is more weighted on the blank imprintable than the ink, but I guess some people don't want to move past the patents. 

Best wishes to every one.

Mark


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## Moo Spot Prints (Jul 16, 2006)

DAGuide said:


> Ok, I am going to withdraw from this thread. It seems that everyone wants to focus on Sawgrass and their business practices.


That speaks volumes right there. Sawgrass is not helping their case with their business practices and price fixing. In a competitive market the price of inks would likely be substantially less than it is now.

To answer your original question though -- My blanks cost me $6-$10 whether I screen print or sublimate (the shirts are the same). The ink cost is disproportionate to the cost of plastisol and cuts into my profits in a major way.


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## MotoskinGraphix (Apr 28, 2006)

I agree with Jose, depending on what style apparel you are printing the blank pricing is comparable with many substrates. It isnt comparable with a Gilden heavyweight cotton basic tee. It is comparable with some of the fashion cut tees.

With rising fuel costs I dont see the blanks getting any less expensive in the near future.


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## CUSTOM UK (Jun 28, 2008)

*My own print methods include vinyl, transfers and sublimation. There are no restrictive trade practices in the first two. I can buy my vinyls and transfers from a range of manufacturers. It puts fair competition in the market and puts them under pressure to develop better products to keep ahead of the competition. **I can buy inkjet cartridges from a range of manufacturers with no problem at all. I can decide on the price/quality mix and buy accordingly.*

*Sublimation is a whole different ball game though. I OWN my printers. They belong to ME. However I fill them up should also be up to me?*

*Eventually someone will challenge one certain ink manufacturer in the courts and win. Some independant and level headed judge will shout "unfair trade practices" and someone will finally wake up and listen.*

*It doesn't matter how politely we word it, we are all being "shafted" and paying well over the odds for a basic product. Instead of the 'few extra cents' per item, look at the true cost over an entire trading year. As an independant business, I don't like to be dictated to, nor does anyone else I presume?  *


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## DAGuide (Oct 2, 2006)

If you want to go back to just the numbers, let me know as I love a discussion that can help others as they evaluate different decorating techniques.

Mark

P.S. I have a hard time believing anyone is going to say that they "average" screen printed blank shirt is going to cost the same as the "average" dye sub shirt. I know almost all of the wholesalers and the typical shirt is well below $3.00 (most colors are below $2.00). Yes, there is a *small* percentage of fashion shirts that cost more...but that is not the average as I mentioned above.


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## MotoskinGraphix (Apr 28, 2006)

Mark...when you mention wholesalers and average shirt costs of $3.00 and $2.00 are you talking Screened or Dyed?


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## CUSTOM UK (Jun 28, 2008)

*Isn't the easy way to clarify this whole post, to look at the cost per 100 ml for sublimation ink, inkjet ink and screen printing ink? Yep we know the screen ink is going to have more wastage, but we are looking at the buying costs.*

*To make the discussion really fair, balanced and addressing the views of everyone that has posted to this topic, look at the cheapest costs per 100ml. No discussions about the technologies, as we are talking about the costs of actually laying ink down here.*

*As regards sublimation printables, I can only really comment on UK prices. Things like mousemats, coasters and mugs are not expensive at all. Garments are a little more costly. I can get a good quality cotton Gildan shirt for about £1.50 ($3). The cheapest sublimation shirt I can buy is a white subli-t for £2.50 ($5). That is cotton with a sublimation coating on it. If I go for pastel colours for sublimation, then I am looking at the vapor range for about £4.50 ($9). Despite the superior sublimation print, that is already making the shirt rather expensive end product. *

*Mark does have a valid point as regards sublimation garments, but so does JB, Sid and others when you look at the inflated cost of sublimation inks. *


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## DAGuide (Oct 2, 2006)

MotoskinGraphix said:


> Mark...when you mention wholesalers and average shirt costs of $3.00 and $2.00 are you talking Screened or Dyed?


I am only talking about the blank garment that you would get from companies like SanMar, Bodek & Rhodes, Alpha, Broder,... There is no decorating done at this point just like if you were to buy a Hanes Soft-Link or Vapor.


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## MotoskinGraphix (Apr 28, 2006)

DAGuide said:


> I am only talking about the blank garment that you would get from companies like SanMar, Bodek & Rhodes, Alpha, Broder,... There is no decorating done at this point just like if you were to buy a Hanes Soft-Link or Vapor.


Yes...I know you are trying to keep it on substrates alone. The $2.00 and $3.00 tees are what, simple cotton?

The Hanes Softlink are what $4.50 and the Vapor around $7.00 maybe?


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## MotoskinGraphix (Apr 28, 2006)

Start up costs aside a good question would be........

100 basic Vapor white tees printed full color one side 15x15 design.....How much per unit does the customer pay?

100 basic Gilden white tees printed one side full color 15x15 design....How much per unit does the customer pay?

Once you get comparable numbers then you can really discuss the variables.

I think your initial point was why arent folks more interested in finding a cheaper dye sub substrate.


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## DAGuide (Oct 2, 2006)

David,

I am not sure if the average dye sub user gets that many 100 shirt orders. Maybe big companies like Sid get them and he can answer your question on what he would charge. This is why I did the initial example with 24 shirts. Dye sub, like other digital printing techniques for apparel, are designed for short to medium runs. If someone came to me with a 100 shirt order, I would have to consider outsourcing the job to a screen printer that could use the appropriate ink for the desired shirt. It most likely would be more profitable unless the graphic would not allow it to be screen printed (i.e. digital photo, variable data for each shirt,...).

The question about what the initial start-up investment is can vary in screen printing so much. That is why I stayed away from this as well. The largest cost for most screen printers is the actual labor it goes into separating a design, printing film, coating / drying the screen, setting up the press, registering the design, printing / curing the shirts and cleaning the screens. Thus the reason why I was just looking at the consumable costs for both technologies.


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## MotoskinGraphix (Apr 28, 2006)

DAGuide said:


> David,
> 
> I am not sure if the average dye sub user gets that many 100 shirt orders. Maybe big companies like Sid get them and he can answer your question on what he would charge. This is why I did the initial example with 24 shirts. Dye sub, like other digital printing techniques for apparel, are designed for short to medium runs. If someone came to me with a 100 shirt order, I would have to consider outsourcing the job to a screen printer that could use the appropriate ink for the desired shirt. It most likely would be more profitable unless the graphic would not allow it to be screen printed (i.e. digital photo, variable data for each shirt,...).
> 
> The question about what the initial start-up investment is can vary in screen printing so much. That is why I stayed away from this as well. The largest cost for most screen printers is the actual labor it goes into separating a design, printing film, coating / drying the screen, setting up the press, registering the design, printing / curing the shirts and cleaning the screens. Thus the reason why I was just looking at the consumable costs for both technologies.


Exactly why I stayed away from start up costs.
Leave that variable alone.

I think dye-sub is for the consumer that wears 100% poly gear or supplies it, understands what goes into full color graphics and the costs, knows the prints have zero hand and are permanent.

Why would an educated consumer that wants that product not place a 100 shirt order.

I have a feeling you are actually trying to compete with screening, DTG and transfers when a dye-sub product is totally unique.

I think its a different market completely.


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## DAGuide (Oct 2, 2006)

MotoskinGraphix said:


> I have a feeling you are actually trying to compete with screening, DTG and transfers when a dye-sub product is totally unique.
> 
> I think its a different market completely.


David,

I agree with you 100%. They are different markets. The only reason why I used the comparison was to show that if you want to increase your profits on dye sub printing, dropping the cost of the blank imprintables will make a larger impact on profits then if there was an open market on inks and the price dropped. That is all I have been wanting to discuss. Just to show another way to decreasing the cost of doing sublimation. We will have to wait and see if an open ink market will lead to more blank imprintables suppliers like UniSub.

Mark

P.S. I am actually a fan of what Vapor Apparel has done. I like the fact that they have colors and some style. Sure they don't have all the fashion trends, but it is a lot better than just the white and Ash Gray for the Soft Link shirts in my opinion... especially for women.


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## Moo Spot Prints (Jul 16, 2006)

DAGuide said:


> Dye sub, like other digital printing techniques for apparel, are designed for short to medium runs.


Where did you get this impression? Yes, it takes time to press but really, its no more complicated than pressing plastisol or inkjet transfers. If I got a large order in, I would probably end up buying a second (or third) press to speed up production. There are people here who regularly do multi-hundred runs on their single press!



> If someone came to me with a 100 shirt order, I would have to consider outsourcing the job to a screen printer that could use the appropriate ink for the desired shirt.


And if I was your customer, I would refuse to pay and never return. When someone wants a shirt that is sublimated, they usually do so for good reason (permanence, no cracking, colors, hand, etc). The substrate materials cost more period. For starters, the raw materials are directly tied to the price of a barrel of oil. I don't understand why you'd be upset that they're more expensive. The price of higher quality shirts is significantly higher than that of the basic gildans/haines, etc, no? 

As for the ink... It used to cost less. A LOT less. When Sawgrass started flexing its patent muscle a lot of the smaller players were forced out and the price went up. It's natural for people to be unhappy with this since as far as they're concerned, nothing changed with the ink other than the price. Who controls the price? Sawgrass.

You either need to price accordingly or use a different printing method (and make sure your customers understand what they're paying for).


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## CUSTOM UK (Jun 28, 2008)

*I have to agree with Jose. If I suddenly had an order dropped on me for 100 shirts, I'd find a way of doing it, even if it meant stopping up all night. In any business, the customer has to be king.*

*Sublimation shirts are high quality print, that look good. Just a shame that the shirts themselves are more expensive than cotton.*


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## MotoskinGraphix (Apr 28, 2006)

DAGuide said:


> David,
> 
> I agree with you 100%. They are different markets. The only reason why I used the comparison was to show that if you want to increase your profits on dye sub printing, dropping the cost of the blank imprintables will make a larger impact on profits then if there was an open market on inks and the price dropped. That is all I have been wanting to discuss. Just to show another way to decreasing the cost of doing sublimation. We will have to wait and see if an open ink market will lead to more blank imprintables suppliers like UniSub.
> 
> ...


My point is even if you drop the price of the substrate its still 100% polyester and Joe public doesnt wear polyester tees.

Probably why there isnt a ton of lower priced substrate out there.

You have to sell the product you produce to the market that understands what they are getting.

If you mean the little guy will only do a 24 shirt run, well he isnt just doing tees to get by. The little guy is doing mugs, tiles and anything else he can print. At this point it doesnt just become the ability to find a cheaper tee to print, this is where ink price makes a huge difference.

I would still like someone to answer the 100 tee question?


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## CUSTOM UK (Jun 28, 2008)

*David is spot on about people not wanting polyester tees. Here in the UK, it is seen as 'a poor man's fabric'. The vast majority of my tee sales are onto cotton.*


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## Moo Spot Prints (Jul 16, 2006)

Good point Dave. Not everybody sublimates onto shirts!


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## plan b (Feb 21, 2007)

Well the market for moisture wicking shirts is taking off and going strong, in order to do that you have to have man made materials, its a big big market and lends itself well to sublimation.


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## MotoskinGraphix (Apr 28, 2006)

plan b said:


> Well the market for moisture wicking shirts is taking off and going strong, in order to do that you have to have man made materials, its a big big market and lends itself well to sublimation.


Yes it does and it isnt the small guy dye-sub basic tee market. It is a perfect market for DS and that was my orig. point in this endeavor.


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## DAGuide (Oct 2, 2006)

First off, thanks Will and Jose for making this more about discussion more about the numbers. I need to clarify some of the earlier posts as I might have not been clear enough.




Moo Spot Prints said:


> There are people here who regularly do multi-hundred runs on their single press!


Jose…Yes, there are some people that do this. But my statement was the “average” dye sub company does. I even stated that maybe Sid would post what he charges. 




Moo Spot Prints said:


> When someone wants a shirt that is sublimated, they usually do so for good reason (permanence, no cracking, colors, hand, etc). The substrate materials cost more period.


What I was trying to say is that if a customer came to me said I have a design that I want on 100 shirts (i.e. not specifying sublimation), then I would probably lean them toward doing the shirts via plastisol transfers or screen printing if the designed allowed this and depending on what type of shirt they want. This is why I stated in the previous post "could use the appropriate ink for the desired shirt". If someone came to me with an order for 24 shirts, then I would consider a digital transfer (including dye sub), direct-to-garment and maybe plastisol transfers depending on the design. This is because these types of decorating techniques make their maximum profit per a shirt on a lower run than screen printing will do on a larger run. Only a small % of customers (usually return customers) for the most part that I have seen come in asking for sublimation by name based on my experience. If they come in asking for sublimation or even hinting about that type of decorating technique and don’t know the name,… then that get that method and have to pay for that price.




Moo Spot Prints said:


> I don't understand why you'd be upset that they're more expensive. The price of higher quality shirts is significantly higher than that of the basic gildans/haines, etc, no?





DREAMGLASS said:


> *Sublimation shirts are high quality print, that look good. Just a shame that the shirts themselves are more expensive than cotton.*


I have no problem with a higher quality item costing more and being able to offset that cost to the customer. Look at some of my previous posts where I state I used to sell a one-off dye sub shirts for $25.00. But, these statements are exactly what I am saying. The cost of the blank imprintable has a larger impact on what the cost per a shirt is to the customer than the price of the dye sub ink. Whereas the cost of the blank imprintable in screen printing is not as proportional to the cost of the plastisol ink when you compare it to sublimation. Again, just looking at the numbers…not talking about investment cost, labor, quality of the print,…




Moo Spot Prints said:


> As for the ink... It used to cost less. A LOT less. When Sawgrass started flexing its patent muscle a lot of the smaller players were forced out and the price went up.


Jose, do you can remember what the cost of sublimation ink was before Sawgrass began enforcing the patents? This will help test my hypothesis.


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## plan b (Feb 21, 2007)

Yep I do a ton for bike teams ,runners, tennis, etc very nice work and very nice profits


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## CUSTOM UK (Jun 28, 2008)

*Hi. Around ninety percent of my tee sales are onto cotton, the other ten percent are printed onto a subli garment that is cotton, with a polymer coating. I buy that particular subli product as it has a good cut, but is also relatively cheap to buy compared to other subli shirts. The limitation of the subli garment, is it's great if you only want white. *

*I sell the subli garments on the very high print quality alone, plus the fact I can do full colour detailed graphics on them. I can't really sell them on the fact that they don't crack or fade, as that would reflect badly on the other tees I produce, which are vinyl cut and also don't fade or crack.*

*Roger brought up an interesting point on the anti wicking feature. Have found a couple of sites that sell subli products to sports people. Was wondering what the mainstream advantage was over cotton? I am presuming it is keeping cooler when participating in activity?*

*I do use my sublimation equipment for other things besides shirts too. *


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## Moo Spot Prints (Jul 16, 2006)

99% of what I do is on performance fabrics. I would never dream of running in cotton again personally and most everyone who's bought a shirt from me feels the same way now. In a nutshell you will stay cooler when it's hot, warmer when it's cool and dryer while you sweat when you wear these fabrics. They really do work.

Be careful though. Not all fabrics are created equal. Just because it says 'performace' or 'wicking' doesn't necessarily mean it's any good. A LOT of manufacturers are jumping on the bandwagon and most of the stuff I've tried isn't that great. The name brand guys get it (asics, nike etc) and their higher end garments are fantastic. Unfortunately, we usually don't have access to that stuff. What we can get is comparable to their 'value' lines of performance gear.


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## DAGuide (Oct 2, 2006)

DREAMGLASS said:


> *Hi. Around ninety percent of my tee sales are onto cotton, the other ten percent are printed onto a subli garment that is cotton, with a polymer coating. I buy that particular subli product as it has a good cut, but is also relatively cheap to buy compared to other subli shirts.*


Will,

Can you provide a link to the "subli garment that is cotton with a polymer coating"? Wondering if this is like Hanes Soft Link or is it a coating that you have to add to the shirt? This is the kinda discussion that I was hoping for. Thanks.

Mark


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## CUSTOM UK (Jun 28, 2008)

Hi Mark, it is a UK based company. here is the link. Adult White Sublimation T Shirts - T Shirts | BMS - Sublimation & Printer Cartridges & Edible Inks

Another site that is unfortunately not loading at the moment, describes these as a 100 percent brushed cotton with a polymer coating for sublimation.


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## DAGuide (Oct 2, 2006)

ok, they sound a lot like these - Product Detail - DyeTrans.com.


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## DAGuide (Oct 2, 2006)

Can someone please post what the price of dye sub ink prior to Sawgrass enforcing the patents?


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## CUSTOM UK (Jun 28, 2008)

*Hi. With the global trade that goes on nowadays, they are probably even made in the same factories.*

*Apart from those previously mentioned, there is really only the vapor range readily available in the UK. The vapor are nearly double the price though.*


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## COEDS (Oct 4, 2006)

This is a bit off topic,but I need to apologize for my earlier comment . If you seen it then I'm sorry and if not I'm glad .... Mark ( D.A.Guide) I made a post earlier in this thread that was inappropriate and it was removed. I want you to know, I regret making the post because it was considered to be a vicious post and I was not trying to insult anyone. I respect all members of this Forum and would never do anything to harm it's integrity of the forums itself. If I have offened anyone ..... I ask you to accept my Sincere apology. Again I'm truly sorry if anyone was offended by my actions. I thank the moderators for doing a great job and seeing that things don't get out of hand. ..... JB


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## CUSTOM UK (Jun 28, 2008)

*Think the thought of having to pay 'over the odds' for a product, is something that is naturally upsetting to most of us. The behaviour of a certain ink manufacturer will always be something that will cause friction and discord.*

*The growth of the sublimation industry, could be improved by the afore mentioned ink manufacturer dropping their prices and the sublimation product producers reviewing their prices and investing in new designs. By competing on a level playing field with other available print technologies, the future for the sublimation industry could be good for all of us. If however it is fuelled by greed on the part of suppliers, the sublimation industry could face a much bleaker future.*

*Other technologies are moving forward very rapidly. It may be in a year's time from now, someone produces an inkjet transfer that doesn't flake, doesn't peel and blends into the material itself. Likewise someone may come up with a viable inkjet transfer that doesn't scratch off and will go through the dish washer. While sublimation remains a relatively expensive process, it leaves a wide open opportunity for developers of other technology. Perhaps it's time the sublimation industry 'woke up and smelt the coffee'!!!  *


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## DAGuide (Oct 2, 2006)

J.B.

No offense was taken. (In fact, I am not sure which post you are talking about, but I have tough skin...taking a bar exam will do that to anyone). The only thing I was trying to discuss in this post was the cost numbers when doing sublimation. There are plenty of posts that talk about the strong opinions people have about Sawgrass and their business practices. I just seem to have a revelation when answering another post that sublimation products could cost less to the end user and be more profitable for the decorators if the focus was shifted from ink price (which only 1 company can change) to imprintable price (which we all can change). Since the patents gives Sawgrass some legal rights, I have always been one to focus on other things we can do to change the industry and let the things we can't change just happen. Kinda like how a lot of people complain about the cons of dark transfers (thick hand, cracks, most be weeded/trimmed...). I just explain what the available technologies are and if they don't like any of those solutions, move on. Although I also hope for changes in inkjet transfer technologies, I have spoken to some of the mills and the dark transfer paper with the features that everyone wants is not even close.

So please don't feel bad. It is a holiday weekend and everyone should have a good time.

Mark


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## plan b (Feb 21, 2007)

I personaly like sublimation, one cannot get the results from any other printing method, while the sublimation industry does not lend itself to inexpensive products I think consumer education would be the key to expand the industry, as the substrate cost and ink cost won't come down in price anytime soon education is the key. I also think that the high price that dye sub items cost commands a different client base with a little bit more fluid income. Dye sub is still inexpensive when you look at the prices of engraving such as glass. I think if we educate the consumer (or train them) as to the benfits of dye sub and the value of the product that this method lends to would increase overall sales volumes


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## CUSTOM UK (Jun 28, 2008)

*On print quality alone, sublimation deserves to sell for a better price than other technologies. Creating a superior graphic in full colour will always put it forward as a better product. Selling it for £3 ($6) more than my vinyl cut items is not a problem for me. The graphics on my vinyl cut items are realistically restricted to about three colours, before the garment gets too bulky.*

*What is more of a problem, is the limited amount of sublimation garments that are available. I understand the valid technical issues as to why it cannot currently print onto dark fabrics and I'm not sure whether that will ever change in the future. What could be resolved more easily though, it to offer a wider range of designs in sublimation garments. The choice at the moment, is rather restricted.*


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## COEDS (Oct 4, 2006)

Mark,I now understand your statement more. I went back and have read the entire thread. I think your right, but the start up cost for sublimation is just more costly. I have a hard getting past the legal stuff, but I see you ar correct. ... JB


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## CUSTOM UK (Jun 28, 2008)

*I think everyone is agreed, that if the costs of sublimation inks and sublimatable products were reduced, it would benefit everyone.*


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## sid (Oct 6, 2007)

Sorry been away. As for what I charge is not going to help this discussion much because I only work with resellers. ASI, artists, and designers. Usually 25% to 35% above costs on T's. As for other products we design and import most of our own products which give us a much better mark up with little or no competition. Which was one of the points I was trying to make. This was one the only ways to reduce the cost of the imprintables. When you are trying to sell commodity products like Ts, mugs, mouse pads, etc. Your substrate costs put you at a disadvantage not your ink cost. How much ink can you use doing a full color mug or coaster? Look a the quality you get versus a silk screen mug, no contest! But it's the cost of the mug that kills you when you are quoting a large order.


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## JYA (Jun 2, 2008)

sid, 

Your business certainly seems able to import its own substrates, but, what about the guy who can't? Unfortunately, this is a reality for many of us. Maybe the money making idea of the day is being a distributor of cost-friendly, good-to-great quality substrates...

Lately, I've been hitting my local Walmart's and been been buying up all of their Starter brand T's on closeout. At $3.00 plus tax per shirt, I am still waaaaaaaay ahead of buying Vapor or Hanes, for now. Unfortunately, I've bought all of the shirts in my surrounding 50 miles, so, at some point, I'll have to move back to Vapor or Hanes.


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## CUSTOM UK (Jun 28, 2008)

*You can buy polyester and poly cotton mix tee shirts from many sources. Think we all tend to buy 'sublimation' tee shirts from sublimation suppliers, as it's an easy option for us.*

*The sublimation garments are undeniably expensive to buy, but the only practical way to counter that disadvantage, is to promote products on quality.*


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## treadhead (Jul 26, 2006)

DAGuide said:


> There are a ton of posts on this forum about the cost of dye sub ink and the Sawgrass patent. In fact, there are several comments from people that feel very strongly in opposition to the patent rights and look for ways, whether legal or not, to find a cheaper alternative for ink. I started to think about this and had a sort of revelation when answering this post - http://www.t-shirtforums.com/dye-sublimation/t52930.html. Why do we care about the cost of dye sub ink when it is a fraction of the total cost of an item?
> 
> 
> Let’s use an example. You have an order for 24 shirts and it has 4 colors in the design that is 10” x 8” in size. Here is an example of the “approximate” cost of doing this job via screen printing and sublimation. Please note this does not count labor, investment money, electricity,…and other items.
> ...


Good points Mark!!

I haven't quite looked at it in that detail before. However, I am one that has not fretted too much about the cost of the ink. In my opinion, although the ink is more expensive than say inkjet ink, the paper is much less expensive so it offsets the ink price quite a bit. 

Your analysis makes me fret even less now....


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## MotoskinGraphix (Apr 28, 2006)

I think the comparison between the $1.30 blank and the $5.00 blank is obvious. If that were all the screeners printed I would still say apples and oranges because one is cotton and one is poly and I just dont think that is a strong sublimation market. Simply because of the buyers preference in what they want in a basic tee.

When the screener and suber move into higher end substrates like work uniforms etc isnt the comparison more apples and apples? That blank is costing the same for both the screen guy and the dye-sub guy. The perception of the fabric becomes a non factor for the end consumer.

I may be wrong but its why we stayed away from sublimation for basic tees in the first place, the market preference and the poly limitations and color ability.


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## CUSTOM UK (Jun 28, 2008)

*What the market needs is competitively priced cotton tee shirt, with a breathable coating that can be sublimated on. Know we can't do much about the limitations of available material colours, but at least they can work on the comfort of the garment. *

*I actually put a sublimated top on yesterday. It wasn't as comfortable as cotton. That's the problem.*


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## treadhead (Jul 26, 2006)

DREAMGLASS said:


> *What the market needs is competitively priced cotton tee shirt, with a breathable coating that can be sublimated on. Know we can't do much about the limitations of available material colours, but at least they can work on the comfort of the garment. *
> 
> *I actually put a sublimated top on yesterday. It wasn't as comfortable as cotton. That's the problem.*


Agreed.....

The only garments we use dye sub on is for performance apparel for running clubs and such.


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## palmetto (Feb 22, 2008)

I agree. I use subdye for mostly performance fabrics and people who want moisture wicking shirts. I've done 100 sub-dye shirts and i just did 100 plastisol shirts on cotton. I prefer the plastisol. 10 secs per press vs. 50 secs. makes a huge difference in time. My time is very valuable so you have to factor that in as well. Plus, the plastisol was much more worry free. No worries of ghosting and using a spray. The sublimation process is much more time consuming from start to finish; however, there is a market for it. I have some customers who request it. The substrate is the largest cost for me. The shirt costs can be comparible if you're not taking about cotton. I use the same performance shirt for sub-dye, vinyl, and plastisol. I have an order coming for 200 performance shirts and I will probably sub-contract out for them to be screenprinted. I'm just waiting on the design to see which way to go. At 200 shirts, contracting out will probably be cheaper than plastisol. When considering the costs, time is definitely an important consideration, especially with large orders.


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## bogie (Dec 24, 2007)

Why do we care so much about the cost of the ink? When we pitch it, and buy a different system because #1 didn't work, well, that costs...


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## Artsplace-CBR (Feb 22, 2007)

I have worked with sublimation & found I couldn't sell the products in my area, a t-shirt in my area goes for
a price of $5.00 or less printed not to mention the prices of the other products printed with this expensive
ink. I worked hard at it but kept losing money & gave it up, found it cheaper to use a printing company
to do the work for me.

Art


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## RedEye (Aug 18, 2006)

I think getting into sublimation late has something to do with opinoins too. I just got into it 3 years ago, and just got my own system last year. So the prices is what it is. 

I do regret getting the 4880 instead of the 7800 (7880). I kick my butt everytime i have to order ink when i know the cost of the ink for the 7000 series is so much cheaper.

But my target market is a market that is fine paying the prices of the shirts ($20 and up).

Sublimation definiltly is a target market type product as far as apparel goes. But i don't know what the heck you guys are saying about vapor apparel not being comforatable...i wear the Basic Tees or Micro Tees everyday. Play on multiple teams that wear them and everyone loves them.


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## CUSTOM UK (Jun 28, 2008)

*To sports folks, I have no doubt that sublimation shirts can be beneficial. Anything that keeps you cool in hot conditions, is a definite plus point.*

*It is the superior print quality that I market my sublimation tees on. I simply can't create that high definition, or rich colours onto cotton. *

*Sublimation tees for all their extra price, simply don't measure up to cotton tees. I wish they did.*


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## SUBZERO (Apr 24, 2008)

Where could find a formula for costing a Sub transfer? IE how do i cost out a 7"x7" image vs. a 11"x11" etc. I just want to be sure I am pricing correctly.


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