# The New Player In The Bagged DTG Ink - Equipment Zone



## IYFGraphics

Ok I guess the cat is out of the bag....

I'm going to be testing the new bagged/degassed ink now being offered by Equipment Zone, I received the ink yesterday along with my new print head and spent last night installing the new head and making a temporary shelf to hold the bagged ink until Harry sends me the proper shelf for the T-Jet2 that they are having made.

I did get everything install last night and since I still have CMYK that I want to use up I'm only going to be using the white ink first, then later I'll switch to all bags. 

I will be posting my results and pictures of the prints as I go along, but it'll be first of the week before I can get started. We are heading out this morning for our race track gig and tomorrow we have a van to letter so while I'm very anxious to try it out and report to the group other more pressing things must come first. 

Anyway here's a few pics of the ink and my temporary setup, the bags are 220ml and have a valve made in them so there is no leakage or air introduced when switching bags. 

Please direct any technical questions to Harry or Alex, I'm just a printer trying out their new system, any usage questions you may have I'll try my best to answer after I'm printing.


[media]http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn196/dragtopia/ezbagink1.jpg[/media][media]http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn196/dragtopia/ezbagink2.jpg[/media][media]http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn196/dragtopia/ezbagink3.jpg[/media][media]http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn196/dragtopia/ezbagink4.jpg[/media][media]http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn196/dragtopia/ezbagink5.jpg[/media] [media]http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn196/dragtopia/ezbagink6.jpg[/media]Now I'm off to the race track....


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## Printzilla

Looking forward to a report. I let my belquette bagged inks go 18 days with no printing. Ran a power clean, then a normal clean, and was ready to roll. Be interesting to see how these work out.


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## FatKat Printz

interesting to see how the 3 bags of white ink will work.. I see a lot of white bubbles in them do you have to shake them every day??


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## TahoeTomahawk

It was a pain to have 3 separate white Ink bottles on the Original Kiosk system and the EQ Bulk Ink system. Not sure why they would continue to use that design.

Also, they should have upgraded the cable chain, I Spend about 2 hours yesterday re-running my tubes through the chain from EQ because they became pinched and twisted. 

Also for upgrading to the EQ system over the standard Kiosk system, there are cartridges. Is that still correct on this system? The cartridges will have ink separation after awhile requiring you to pull them off the head and shake them. I once broke the connector from the cartridge trying to flush it out, EQ wanted $100 for a set of new cartridges when they are clearly standard Epson 2200 refillables, with a 3/32 tubing connector glued to it. I was not a fan.


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## binki

Hmm, they were a critic of the bagged system not too long ago in a conversation I had with them.


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## FatKat Printz

one by one they will learn...


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## binki

so if i buy this bagged ink and i already have their bulk system can i just hook up the bags or is there some other $400 part i have to buy with it?


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## Printzilla

Harry-is the Velocijet going to be produced with bagged inks going forward?


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## IYFGraphics

FatKat Printz said:


> interesting to see how the 3 bags of white ink will work.. I see a lot of white bubbles in them do you have to shake them every day??



Carla/Pat,

When the bags were unpacked from their shipping boxes they had bubbles noticeable, I thought at first it was just a couple bags (yellow and white) but upon close inspection all of the bags have bubbles in them. Now it's been about 36 hours later and the number of small bubbles in the bags are almost gone but there are several large bubbles in the bags.

While this is what I consider a technical issue (that Harry should address) I'll give an opinion which could be correct or not....

I'm guessing that the bags have 220ml of ink in them but are capable of holding probably another 20-50ml more ink and the extra space in the bags is creating a void, sine I have no information as to how the bags are filled or the choice in the type/style of bag used I'll have to leave it to someone at EZ to address this.

That said, once I start printing if it is an issue I will report it here in the open forum so it can be discussed.

I guess I should also post a disclaimer somewhere in this topic and since this is my first reply to the thread it might as well be here....

I have no affiliation with Equipment Zone other than being a customer, I was never asked by anyone at Equipment Zone to start this thread or to post my findings/experiences with the new bagged ink here on TSF, Harry did ask me if I was interested in testing the ink, and I said yes I would be, I did pay for the ink the same as anyone else would have so I have no bias in that direction.

I'd guess the reason I was asked to test it was because I've have tried to keep and open mind about ink delivery, I do personally feel that the bagged/degassed ink is a better system then the bulk ink in bottles, I'm basing this from my experiences using the bulk system which has never really caused us the type of problems others have had, and all the info that has been shard here on TSF about the bagged ink. We are not a large production facility, in fact we are rather small as a company our ink usage is going to be a lot lower then most of you fine folks, we do what I consider large orders of DTG prints (50-200) but we also do a ton of 1-20 shirt print jobs so we are going to see how the ink holds up with normal maintenance and casual printing, not production going through a ton of ink in a week. 

Hope this helps.


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## IYFGraphics

binki said:


> so if i buy this bagged ink and i already have their bulk system can i just hook up the bags or is there some other $400 part i have to buy with it?


Nope....(not as far as I know or have been told) there is nothing to buy other than the ink, just like Belquette everything else you need is going to be included from what I understand. The switch over is very easy, just remove the line from the bulk bottle, install the supplied fitting on to the line, hook up the bag.

In our case the replacement shelving was not ready yet and I was running out of white ink so I wanted to get started, since a lot of other folks using bagged ink have just placed the bag on something to get the correct height, I felt it wouldn't be a big issue. The shelf for the T-Jet2 simply replaces the bottle shelf using the same mount and the same adjustability by just loosing the two knobs and raising or lowering the shelf.

Hope this helps.


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## IYFGraphics

Printzilla said:


> Harry-is the Velocijet going to be produced with bagged inks going forward?


Zilla,

From what Harry told me the Veloci-Jet will be offered with either bulk or bagged ink.

Hope this helps.


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## FatKat Printz

IYFGraphics said:


> Carla/Pat,
> 
> When the bags were unpacked from their shipping boxes they had bubbles noticeable, I thought at first it was just a couple bags (yellow and white) but upon close inspection all of the bags have bubbles in them. Now it's been about 36 hours later and the number of small bubbles in the bags are almost gone but there are several large bubbles in the bags.
> 
> Hope this helps.


Thanks, for the update.. can't wait to see the underbase pictures .. true test make a large platen square and see how the ink takes it.. Adam did and we tried it as well..no starvation no puddling..


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## TahoeTomahawk

I'm a real big fan of the degassed bagged inks, so please correct me if I'm wrong. But that Ink with the bubbles looks alot like someone just filled a bag with ink out of a bottle?


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## Printzilla

I wonder if they are doing it in house, or having an outside vendor actually bag the inks.


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## IYFGraphics

Printzilla said:


> I wonder if they are doing it in house, or having an outside vendor actually bag the inks.


Marc,

From what Harry told me it is being done by a 3rd party, but really I consider this something Harry should explain since anything I might say isn't from the horses mouth....I'd assume Harry and crew were at ISS Fort Worth this weekend so hopefully they will join in shortly.

Hope this helps.


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## IYFGraphics

Ok back to tee shirt printing...

I know it was suggested I do a test print but I'm behind in my orders and will do that down the road, but today I need to print some shirts to get caught up.

Here's a few pics of the underbase and finished product, these were printed at 1440 underbase (single pass) and a 720 color (single pass) these are the settings we use the most on darks and I saw no reason to change.

One of the pics is of the white ink bags it's now been over 48 hrs and the white still look nice no seperation, but there are still bubbles noticeable in the bags just not as many as when I received them.

[media]http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn196/dragtopia/ezbagink10.jpg[/media][media]http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn196/dragtopia/ezbagink11.jpg[/media][media]http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn196/dragtopia/ezbagink12.jpg[/media][media]http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn196/dragtopia/ezbagink14.jpg[/media][media]http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn196/dragtopia/ezbagink13.jpg[/media]The close up pic....the shading in the picture is my head or the camera not sure which or both. LOL!

Anyway so far so good, other than the bubbles in the bags everything seems to be as good or better than the bulk white I've been using for the last year and a half.

The white ink is just as bright as the bottled stuff, coverage is great but I am using a brand new print head, I have no flow issues I did have to do a little tweeking on my shelf height to get the CMYK to stop flowing backwards into the bottles but once I switch to all bags that shouldn't be an issue.

I did print a test shirt with this design that I'll throw in the wash and see how it holds up.

Hope this helps.


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## Rodney

> I'm going to be testing the new bagged/degassed ink now being offered by Equipment Zone, I received the ink yesterday along with my new print head and spent last night installing the new head and making a temporary shelf to hold the bagged ink until Harry sends me the proper shelf for the T-Jet2 that they are having made


Did you have to buy it, or was it given to you free to test?


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## Printzilla

Rodney, from an earlier post. 



IYFGraphics said:


> .
> 
> I have no affiliation with Equipment Zone other than being a customer, I was never asked by anyone at Equipment Zone to start this thread or to post my findings/experiences with the new bagged ink here on TSF, Harry did ask me if I was interested in testing the ink, and I said yes I would be, I did pay for the ink the same as anyone else would have so I have no bias in that direction.
> 
> 
> Hope this helps.


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## IYFGraphics

Rodney said:


> Did you have to buy it, or was it given to you free to test?


Rodney,

I paid for the ink the same as anyone else would, which IMHO gives me a very unbiased opinion, I did post a disclaimer in one of the posts above stating that fact.

The reason I agreed to test the ink is basically because there are so many posts here on TSF about the Belquette bagged ink and the advantages of it, I was ready to switch over to their ink as Jerid will verify we have had several PM's discussing buying the ink and pricing.

But like most consumers I do believe that competition is a good thing, it not only brings better products to the masses but in a lot of cases lower prices for the better products.

So when Harry contacted me about testing the ink I was very interested in doing so, for mainly the reasons stated above but also I like to take the path less traveled and the chance to test a product and report it here to the group was an added bonus.

I don't expect to sway anyone from what their using that's not my job or intent but to pass along my experiences and opinion only about a product that is IMHO very much needed in the DTG marketplace.

Hope this helps.

PS....on a side note to everybody I will have another post on the ink in the next couple days, been trying to get caught up on my print orders, I do have more photos to post and a opinion or two to pass along.


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## IYFGraphics

Ok it's been awhile since I gave you guys any updates, to be totally honest we are swamped with printing and I just havent's had the time to report more....but anyway here's some pictures of some of our recent orders, all printed with the EZ bagged white ink, I'm still using the bottles for CMYK because I want to use it up. 

Check out the pics then I have a few comments and observations.

[media]http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn196/dragtopia/ez7.jpg[/media][media]http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn196/dragtopia/ez8.jpg[/media][media]http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn196/dragtopia/ez5.jpg[/media][media]http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn196/dragtopia/ez6.jpg[/media][media]http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn196/dragtopia/ez2.jpg[/media][media]http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn196/dragtopia/ez1.jpg[/media][media]http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn196/dragtopia/ez3.jpg[/media][media]http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn196/dragtopia/ez4.jpg[/media]Yeah I know we do a ton of car shirts....

Ok..First let me say that we have had absolutely no problems with the white ink at all, the bubbles haven't turned out to be an issue but I will say that I've been very careful in keeping them at the top of the bag away from the ink line....hopefully that issue will be addressed since I got beta ink.

As you can see by the pictures the coverage is very nice and bright.

An observation that I hadn't thought of....when you have a bulk bottled system your constantly added ink to the bottles when you have a long production run, it's not like you can just fill the bottles to the top and sit back and let it rip..but with the bags the entire supply of ink (in this case 220ml) is connected to the printer, you can forget about adding ink with a system like this which is a benefit that I never considered or remember reading, maybe it just goes without saying,,,Duh!

Anyway I need to get back to printing, the last design in the pictures is a 100 shirt run, which if you've ever printed with a T-Jet2 you know it's gonna take a little while to do.

I'll have another post in a few days as the bags are getting close to needing to be replaced (almost empty), I need to make a phone call tomorrow to get phase 2 of the test set up.


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## Printzilla

Thanks for the update. Can you give us a little info on how you are leaving the machine over weekends etc? I know I left mine for 18 days once, and I am very curious how your maintainence issues have changed.


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## IYFGraphics

Printzilla said:


> Thanks for the update. Can you give us a little info on how you are leaving the machine over weekends etc? I know I left mine for 18 days once, and I am very curious how your maintainence issues have changed.


Sure Marc,

I guess first I should say when we're busy like right now we print everyday, even Saturday & Sunday (I'm printing while typing this) that said, I really haven't changed anything with how I leave the printer sit.

I read all the time about folks getting 3 months out of a print head and frankly that scares the hell out of me so I adopted a policy of never letting the printer sit for more than a few days without flushing the print head with cleaning solution, must have done something right because we got 16 months out of the last print head.

So an example, tonight when I'm finished printing, I'll clean the bottom of the print head, clean the capping station & seal, clean the wiper, a few drops of cleaning solution in the capping station and let it sit.

If I was finished with this order and had no more printing to do for a few days I would do all of the above after pulling the ink carts (I put the in a ziploc bag on top of the printer) install the cleaning carts, flush the print head and capping station until there is no ink in the capping station.

I have let the printer sit like that for a couple weeks without any ill effects.

Hope this helps.


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## Printzilla

Thanks. I had over eight months on my bagged ink head, and it is still going strong. I never removed the dampers or flushed the head, I just did the same daily routine you did if printing, and if I was not printing, I just let it sit. 

Keep us updated.


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## IYFGraphics

Printzilla said:


> Thanks. I had over eight months on my bagged ink head, and it is still going strong. I never removed the dampers or flushed the head, I just did the same daily routine you did if printing, and if I was not printing, I just let it sit.
> 
> Keep us updated.


Good to hear I'm on the right track as far as maintenance, it does seem to work, I think if I'd been using bagged ink I would still be printing with the old head, I'm sure I lost one of the white channels because of sediment from one of the bulk bottles getting to the head.

Anyway I'm done printing for today 14 hrs is plenty....man I wish I had a faster printer or a second printer for jobs like this one.


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## Printzilla

Been there with the Tjets. I feel your pain.


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## tfalk

IYFGraphics said:


> If I was finished with this order and had no more printing to do for a few days I would do all of the above after pulling the ink carts (I put the in a ziploc bag on top of the printer) install the cleaning carts, flush the print head and capping station until there is no ink in the capping station.
> 
> I have let the printer sit like that for a couple weeks without any ill effects.


Not using the white ink but using the cleaning cartridges seems to have made a major difference in how the machine works. I'm able to restore the machine back to printing status much quicker than trying to use cleaning solution in the dampers...

Now I need to go back through your posts and find out how you are doing the pretreating, that's the one obstacle that is keeping us from printing white.


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## IYFGraphics

tfalk said:


> Not using the white ink but using the cleaning cartridges seems to have made a major difference in how the machine works. I'm able to restore the machine back to printing status much quicker than trying to use cleaning solution in the dampers...
> 
> Now I need to go back through your posts and find out how you are doing the pretreating, that's the one obstacle that is keeping us from printing white.


I don't think I've mentioned in this thread how I pretreat and you may be shocked...

First let me say that if your not using white ink in your printer you really shouldn't have many problems at all, CMYK is pretty forgiving unlike the white ink.

So anyway my pretreat process is as follows:

For small runs of dark garments (and I'm talking less then 20 shirts I pretreat with a .99 cent spray bottle, I prepress the shirt for 5-10 sec @ 320F degrees, spray the print area, cover with non-coated parchment paper and press for 20 sec with med pressure, remove paper and press another 10-20 sec, remove from press and set aside or load on shirt board and print.

I know a lot of folks use a roller to spread the pretreatment evenly on the print area, I never do that and do have a little fiberation on some garments, it's not a big issue to me or most of my customers, we don't do "fashion" or have a "clothing line" the bulk of our customers are regular folk that are buying a custom design on a tee shirt their more interested in the design than making a fashion statement.

For larger runs I do the curing basically the same but use a Wagner power sprayer to apply the pretreatment, I think with the Wagner I use less pretreatment per shirt, it's not faster but is easier on my hands not pumping a spray bottle for hours on end.

So while I'm talking about curing I'll mention that our shirts printed with the bagged white ink were cured for 190 sec @ 320-340F degrees, this is covered with coated parchment paper and very light to no pressure from the heat press basically a hover but the press is closed. I have a sample shirt that has been washed and dried (with no special care) for 6 cycles and has been worn also, I'll be posting pictures of it in an upcoming post, I want to give it a few more washes before passing judgment.

Hope this helps.


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## TahoeTomahawk

I hope EQ weighs in on here to describe their bagging process. 
After finally resolving issues with the Belquette Closed-Ink system, it would be a shame to see a company simply filling bags with bottled inks.
Are they filtered? Are they degassed? Agitated or rolled until bagged? etc. etc.


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## IYFGraphics

TahoeTomahawk said:


> I hope EQ weighs in on here to describe their bagging process.
> After finally resolving issues with the Belquette Closed-Ink system, it would be a shame to see a company simply filling bags with bottled inks.
> Are they filtered? Are they degassed? Agitated or rolled until bagged? etc. etc.


I agree Adam.....

I'll probably be out of their white ink tonight, I have roughly 10-15% of the bags left to use and I want to see how much is left in the bag when I start having coverage issues.

I can't really say as to the technique being used, I asked questions and they were answered mostly but anything I would say is second hand and I'm not willing to be viewed as an advocate or spokesman because I'm not, I'm just a printer testing ink and posting my results/experiences for everyone to draw their own conclusions.

Having said that....I feel for my own tests to have any validity I need to test the competitions bagged ink also...so this morning I placed an order with Jerid and tomorrow I should have Belquette bagged ink to add to my testing.

At this point I can say I won't go back to an open ink system, I'm a convert....everyone who as used a bulk open ink delivery system knows the limitations, I can say that bagged bulk ink is a better solution and defiantly for us the way to go.

Disclaimer:The statement I'm making above about an open bulk ink delivery system having limitations are my personal opinion, while IMHO it's a valid ink delivery system and has it's place over cartridge ink if for no other reason then cost per ml, all of us who print with a DTG printer know that it does have it's limitations. It's a given that air introduced into the ink delivery system at any point is a bad thing I won't go into all of the problems as they have been covered here on TSF in a lot of different threads.

Hopefully that seems fair to everyone.


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## kevrokr

PrintsRite Ink and Conversion Kit shipped today. I watched your order fill so I know it's fresh.


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## TahoeTomahawk

Are you using the Cartridges that come from EQ or are you using dampers? If so, what kind of dampers?


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## IYFGraphics

TahoeTomahawk said:


> Are you using the Cartridges that come from EQ or are you using dampers? If so, what kind of dampers?


They are the carts that came with the EZ Bulk system, I don't think anyone makes dampers for the TJet-2 but I could be mistaken.

Which brings up another point would not the enhanced dampers for a Kiosk 2 work?...seems like someone told me that they would not.


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## JeridHill

IYFGraphics said:


> Which brings up another point would not the enhanced dampers for a Kiosk 2 work?...seems like someone told me that they would not.


Without a chip block to hold the resettable chips in place, you can't use dampers.


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## TahoeTomahawk

When we first got our Kiosk 2, it had these long thing chip blocks you had to take out and re-seat to fake a cartridge replacement, but the ink was delivered through dampers. That got annoying real quick and soon they had a small chip board as a replacement that sits under the cover. Not sure if that is something that would work on the Tjet or not.

Maybe someone can mill a chip block holder for the 2200 carriage so they can use dampers instead of carts.


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## JeridHill

Adam, you couldn't just push the ink button? You had to actually pull the cartridge out and put it back in?


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## IYFGraphics

JeridHill said:


> Adam, you couldn't just push the ink button? You had to actually pull the cartridge out and put it back in?


That's now my biggest bottleneck having to walk over to the printer, push the ink button, pull the offending cart, reseat it, push the ink button again....then walk away only to look back and see another ink light is on and going through the whole process again. LOL!


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## TahoeTomahawk

JeridHill said:


> Adam, you couldn't just push the ink button? You had to actually pull the cartridge out and put it back in?


Correct, had to take it out and re-insert it while the power was still on. The new board is a bit better, it still thinks ink runs out, you hit power then power back on after a few seconds and it will reset, BUT .. if you let it run completely out it will do a head clean. So the trick on the Kiosk for us is to power off / back on every few prints with white ink at 1440 to prevent it from head clean due to out of ink.


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## IYFGraphics

Update.......

Well with 18 shirts left in our 100 shirt order we're out of ink!

I'll back up, phase 2 of our test is to try the Belquette bagged ink in the same production run as the Equipment Zone bagged ink, we ran out of the EZ ink yesterday and channel by channel I had to switch back to bulk bottled ink to keep the printer going and shirts flowing.....at 9 pm last night I had to shut the printer down I had ran through the last of the bottled white ink...more on that in a minuet.

I ordered ink from Jerid on Monday thinking it would be shipped from Ohio where he is located but it was shipped from Belquette in Florida, not a big deal I made a assumption without asking and my assumption was wrong....the up side is that the ink should be here today and we can resume production.

If someone would have told me at the beginning of the week that going back to bottled ink was going to bring back all the printing issues that I was use to dealing with for a year and a half I would have told them they were crazy...my printer has been working flawlessly why would changing back to bottles make that big of a difference?....it did!

Channel by channel switching back to an open system brought back all the issues, banding, poor coverage, clogged channels, repeated ink purges and head cleanings to get a good print....I was in total disbelief as I watch all the old problems come back. First I thought it was something to do with the pretreatment because instead of the nice bright white underbase I was getting the coverage was slowing changing to a light gray and some of the shirts were pretreated two days ago....so I re-treated a few, no difference. Then I thought it was a humidity issue because the humidity had fallen in the building to 38% turning on the humidifier for a few hours and bringing the level of humidity back up to 48% had no effect at all....WTF!

Granted I was using ink from the bottom of the liter bottle but the difference was like night and day between the bagged ink going back to the bottles....to be truthful it sucked!

Anyway I struggled through and kept printing until I was to a point that the ink levels were so low it was pointless to continue and gave up.

Anyone who tells you there is no difference between a closed bagged ink delivery system on a T-Jet2 and the open bulk system is full of it and direct them to me or this post, I'll explain it to them in much more detail....I'll reiterate something I said in one of the posts above, I'm a convert, I've witnessed in with my own eyes in my own shop with my own DTG printer...there is one hell of a difference in print quality, ease of use, consistency of prints, coverage, ink starvation, banding.....not to mention the convenience of having your entire ink supply connected to the printer instead of just a few milliliters.

I have some pics to post but for some reason photobucket hates me today so I'll post them later....come on Mr UPS bring me my ink.

Rant Off.


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## FatKat Printz

Jon-

I am not sure if anyone answered about the "enhanced dampers" for the T-Jet 2 .. I would say "yes" to this because its the same printhead as the K2.. but I think that working with the carts helps the air elimination process.. but I am not familiar with the carts.


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## JeridHill

IYFGraphics said:


> I ordered ink from Jerid on Monday thinking it would be shipped from Ohio where he is located but it was shipped from Belquette in Florida, not a big deal I made a assumption without asking and my assumption was wrong


Sorry about that, I must have made the assumption you understood that everything shipped out of Florida. 

It's set up this way because of the ink degassing and microfiltering process. We had talked about doing this here as well, but it's very involved and shied away from it for now. Possibly in the future, but or now all QC is top notch and handled through Belquette. This way, the day you order, the inks were just degassed and filtered. Check out the label when you get it and it will show the date it was degassed, filtered and bagged. It will match the date it was shipped.


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## IYFGraphics

FatKat Printz said:


> Jon-
> 
> I am not sure if anyone answered about the "enhanced dampers" for the T-Jet 2 .. I would say "yes" to this because its the same printhead as the K2.. but I think that working with the carts helps the air elimination process.. but I am not familiar with the carts.


Thanks Carla.....BTW it's appropriate for you to to say "I told you so" about the bagged ink.


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## IYFGraphics

JeridHill said:


> Sorry about that, I must have made the assumption you understood that everything shipped out of Florida.
> 
> It's set up this way because of the ink degassing and microfiltering process. We had talked about doing this here as well, but it's very involved and shied away from it for now. Possibly in the future, but or now all QC is top notch and handled through Belquette. This way, the day you order, the inks were just degassed and filtered. Check out the label when you get it and it will show the date it was degassed, filtered and bagged. It will match the date it was shipped.


No problem Jerid, in fact as it turns out it was a good thing for the testing if it would have been here yesterday I would never had put the bottles back on the T-Jet and would have still had a little doubt in my mind....not now.

Anyway no harm, I should have asked and I didn't, I just assumed there was a distribution channel that you were a shipping point or stocking dealer, I never realized that it was bagged on demand by order and shipped to give the freshest product....which has to be a good thing.


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## spiderx1

T2 and carts with bagged ink work well. To put dampers in a T2 requires a chip block to be installed. I however, no matter how good the ink is and how great the service is, recommend the dampers from belquette that come with the conversion. First set, no matter how careful and no I did not squeeze the side, leaked badly. Second set were some what better but still hard to work with and messy. They did overnight replacements without asking their ususual outstanding service. So now we are using carts as dampets in a K2. Works fine. No mess.


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## IYFGraphics

Hopefully this is the last bottle of this evil stuff that's ever in our shop!










Here's the last bag.....










Like everyone else said....down to the last drop.










The picture above looks like theres more ink in it then there really is...I squeezed and shoved to get every bit to the fitting to get out of the bag all I could.

As I've stated before in other threads we bag & tag the bulk of our production, roughly 90% of what we print is done this way.










Here's more....










A shot of the last of two bags....










Interesting thing about the EZ bagged ink is that the bags have a valve made in them that enables you to disconnect the bag from a ink line while printing, the fitting has a valve in it also so the line doesn't leak or draw air into the line while changing bags, when connected they push against each other keeping an open connection between the ink bag and supply line.....pretty cool.


----------



## kevrokr

You may want to be careful not to let the air that's in that bag to get into the ink lines. May cause some issues. One of the reasons why degassing is so important.


----------



## TahoeTomahawk

Agreed Randy, the MOD dampers are tough to work with on the Kiosk. On the MOD they seal the print head so accidental dripipng is not a prob. The best solution on the kiosk are the dampers from dtginks that have big filter. Plug and play


----------



## IYFGraphics

kevrokr said:


> You may want to be careful not to let the air that's in that bag to get into the ink lines. May cause some issues. One of the reasons why degassing is so important.


Agreed....I was concern about that all the way through using the ink Harry sent me and was very careful to keep the bubbles in the bags away from the connector on the bag. It really wasn't a big issue, but hopefully an issue that EZ as corrected.

Like I said before I got beta ink to test, it's now been several months since that batch was produced (I think the production date on the boxes I got was in August) and I would guess the process refined.....but I have no knowledge of that fact only speculation on my part.

Jerid has mentioned to me about the microscopic bubbles that can be in the ink if not degassed properly, and how it can effect the print head, I'm familiar with how a ultrasonic cleaner works which is how I equate the destructive force imposed on the print head if the bubbles exist in the ink....not a pretty picture, and not something that would show itself right away but would destroy the head in time.

Hopefully I have that correct.


----------



## abmcdan

I've been using Belquette bagged inks for quite some time and there always seems to be some air in the bags. But it doesn't seem to affect the performance. Trying to get cheaper ink I switched back to bottles and had a ton of problems, now I'm back with the bags and running great. 

My other issue with bags vs bottles is everytime you switch bags you introduce air into the line and I have to pull ink through to get it out. Maybe I'm doing something wrong. With bottles as long as you kept the ink level above the hose you never introduced air.

Overall though going to bags in my opinion is a no brainer. I don't know why but the printer just prints more consistently and you do WAY less head cleanings. The benefits far outweigh the couple little things.

Hope this helps,
Andy


----------



## IYFGraphics

abmcdan said:


> I've been using Belquette bagged inks for quite some time and there always seems to be some air in the bags. But it doesn't seem to affect the performance. Trying to get cheaper ink I switched back to bottles and had a ton of problems, now I'm back with the bags and running great.


Andy,

If you read my "Update" post from this morning you'll see I had the same problems, I guess when I was using bottles all the time I got accustom to having to tinker with the printer all the time to get a quality print...I thought it was just part of the DTG experience!

Not true, in just a few print passes using bagged white ink my underbase consistency was great on every print, very bright white and very even coverage, it took a lot of the guessing out of "why" I had issues before, going back to bottled ink all the old problems resurfaced....like I said it was a shock and hard to believe the difference.

I'm still shaking my head in amazement.

Hey my ink is here....thanks Belquette! I got to get busy.


----------



## FatKat Printz

The way i deal with the little bit of air that you get when changing bags is easy enough. You just gotta watch it in the line as you print. With the enhanced dampers from dtginks.com you can see when the air is about to hit. Pull the damper and prime it. This also gives you a chance to check out the spikes there on the print head. I always clean them, then ink fill for a few seconds to prime the head. Then two head cleans and I'm back to tinker free printing. This is the best/least down time/ most efficient way I've found.


----------



## IYFGraphics

FatKat Printz said:


> The way i deal with the little bit of air that you get when changing bags is easy enough. You just gotta watch it in the line as you print. With the enhanced dampers from dtginks.com you can see when the air is about to hit. Pull the damper and prime it. This also gives you a chance to check out the spikes there on the print head. I always clean them, then ink fill for a few seconds to prime the head. Then two head cleans and I'm back to tinker free printing. This is the best/least down time/ most efficient way I've found.


Thanks Carla,

I misunderstood what Kevin was talking about until I hooked up the bag to the T-Jet, and did basically the same thing once the air got close to the carts I used a syringe to pull it the rest of the way and out of the cart, wasted a little ink but it's printing great.


----------



## FatKat Printz

Well it was me.... Pat, but thanks.lol


----------



## JeridHill

FatKat Printz said:


> Well it was me.... Pat, but thanks.lol


Maybe you ought to end with P or C 

As a side note, a post of mine was deleted so I assume it might have been considered self promotion??

I was talking about how to remove air from the dampers on the Mod1. I only stated Mod1 because I don't know how you draw ink through the print head. So let me rephrase it, because the information is valid and will save a lot of trouble for other people who have machines that may be able to do the same thing. It wasn't a promotion of the Mod1, but more a bit of information on how to remove air from the dampers or cartridges without removing them.

I am using the Mod1 as a reference because I don't know other machines. We use a hose that we attach a syringe to in order to draw ink through the dampers and the head. If your machine, whichever you own, has this capability, you can put a syringe on it and pinch the ink lines. When you draw on the syringe, it will pull air from the dampers/cartridges. Keep doing this until you see no more air but only ink.

At this point, keep pulling, but release the pinched hose and ink will flow through the head. All the air, at this point, should be removed from the dampers and head. This is a simple method that saves time from having to remove cartridges or dampers.

Again, I don't know which machines have this capability, but I assume we can't be the only ones. Sorry if someone felt it was self promotion, because it wasn't. As a matter of fact, I was very surprised it was deleted.


----------



## FatKat Printz

I've been shown this procedure by Mark on a visit to Belquette. I envy this because it's not that easy on a 2200. K2 is old in that sense. Bags are today's technology fixing what was wrong years ago with it. P


----------



## IYFGraphics

Ok Phase 2 begins......

Below are pics of the kit sent to me by Belquette it was included with the ink free of charge which I believe is standard procedure....thanks guys.

Hooking up the single bag was a snap with the supplied connectors and the folks at Belquette included enough line to run all the way to my cartridges if I wanted....at this point I opted to just cut the line off, use the connectors, purge the air out of the lines, and get to printing. 

Here's a few pics for the people who haven't seen the system.

[media]http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn196/dragtopia/belqink2.jpg[/media][media]http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn196/dragtopia/belqink1.jpg[/media]As you can see in the pictures nice stuff and the bag of ink is 500ml, the three bags from Equipment Zone totaled 660ml together.

I printed a few shirts to make sure I was using the Belquette ink (and not that nasty bottled stuff from last night) Here's a picture of the underbase...

[media]http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn196/dragtopia/belqink6.jpg[/media]The shadow on the scull head is from the camera flash....as you can see the underbase in nice and bright, coverage is great, this was printed at the same settings as the EZ ink 1440 underbase & 720 color.

And a picture of the finished print....

[media]http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn196/dragtopia/belqink7.jpg[/media]Here's a picture of the bag hooked up to the printer....

[media]http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn196/dragtopia/belqink5.jpg[/media]As Jerid stated the label on the bag states the date filled and the batch number..

I have printed a test shirt to add to the wash tests of the Equipment Zone bagged ink printed shirt, the printer is back humming along printing, nothing like last nights experiences on the bottled ink it's back to printing like it did on the EZ bagged ink.

I'll report more later...stay tuned.


----------



## FatKat Printz

I don't know how aggressively you shook the EZ bags but the BQ bags needs a good shake in the am.. 
grab end to end and shake it back and forth for a couple of seconds.. you will see that won't stir up any bubbles but one good shake is all you need. C


----------



## JeridHill

Jon, the clip is a good idea. I would angle the platform downward very slightly (if you haven't already). It doesn't have to be a lot, just enough to get the ink to go to the bottom of the bag, no matter how much ink was in it. Just a couple of degrees is all you need.


----------



## TahoeTomahawk

Welcome to the Dark side Jon.

Right now you are going through the 'impressed' stage, soon will follow sadness and then anger as you think back at all the ink was flushed down the drain doing head cleans and ink fills to clear the clogs and starvation.

If you ever find yourself drowning your sorrow with a bottle of Jack give us a call. We have a support group set up.


----------



## abmcdan

Are you guys running your ink bags all the way empty? Sometimes my white ink coverage gets bad when I get to the last 10% or less of the bag.

Just curious if anyone is seeing the same issue.

Thanks,
Andy


----------



## FatKat Printz

I don't know about Adam.. we use up the entire bag we get bright white then it just dies we have experimented on several different occasions.. to ensure how far we can go we like to push it to the limits..

worse case scenerio is just printing a second layer of white with the new bag.

Also, like Adam we are using lab jacks and when the bag gets empty we found a $3 L-shaped plastic frame from Office Depot that fits the bags perfectly and we have one for each printer. 

or just putting it on top of a full bag of color helps too

p/c


----------



## IYFGraphics

TahoeTomahawk said:


> Welcome to the Dark side Jon.
> 
> Right now you are going through the 'impressed' stage, soon will follow sadness and then anger as you think back at all the ink was flushed down the drain doing head cleans and ink fills to clear the clogs and starvation.
> 
> If you ever find yourself drowning your sorrow with a bottle of Jack give us a call. We have a support group set up.


Thank you Adam....if you read my post from this morning you saw my shock and disbelief that something that was working flawlessly could go in the crapper so quickly.

I have to admit we had good luck in the last year and a half using the open bottles but it wasn't without constant tinkering with the printer to get good results, like I said I thought it was just part of the joys of DTG printing. 

This morning when I wrote the post I was pissed! after a few days of printing like everyone who doesn't own a DTG printer but wants one thinks they print, it turned into a major POS....in just a few hours on the bottles all the usual problems came right back.

It was like a hard slap in the face....really it was. Right now the printer has been printing non-stop for hours no hiccups, no misprints, no banding, just great print after great print.

Like I said I'm a convert..... there's no doubt in my mind that bagged ink is the best thing anyone can do to their DTG printer...Period.


----------



## JeridHill

TahoeTomahawk said:


> If you ever find yourself drowning your sorrow with a bottle of Jack


or the DrinksRite Bagged Drinking System..... Bubbles allowed


----------



## IYFGraphics

FatKat Printz said:


> I don't know about Adam.. we use up the entire bag we get bright white then it just dies we have experimented on several different occasions.. to ensure how far we can go we like to push it to the limits..
> 
> worse case scenerio is just printing a second layer of white with the new bag.
> 
> Also, like Adam we are using lab jacks and when the bag gets empty we found a $3 L-shaped plastic frame from Office Depot that fits the bags perfectly and we have one for each printer.
> 
> or just putting it on top of a full bag of color helps too
> 
> p/c


I wish I had room for a lab jack it looks like a perfect solution, but I don't without a lot of major moving around equipment and if I have to I can fab something up that will look good and work to hold the bags.

I think I have one of those plastic stand around here somewhere, looks like a calculator stand. 

With the EZ bags I just hung them at a slight angle with a coat hanger, increasing the angle as the bag got closer to empty, seemed to work ok.

Now I can't wait to finish up all the bottled CMYK so I can convert to total bags.


----------



## FatKat Printz

IYFGraphics said:


> I wish I had room for a lab jack it looks like a perfect solution, but I don't without a lot of major moving around equipment and if I have to I can fab something up that will look good and work to hold the bags.
> 
> I think I have one of those plastic stand around here somewhere, looks like a calculator stand.
> 
> With the EZ bags I just hung them at a slight angle with a coat hanger, increasing the angle as the bag got closer to empty, seemed to work ok.
> 
> Now I can't wait to finish up all the bottled CMYK so I can convert to total bags.


I saw your add on.. we had that because we didn't have room and once we had room we went with the lab jacks.

we just bolted a street sign on the side because we had it on a cart and no real room to put the printer on anything at the time. 

not sure its a calculator stand I found it in the display section at office Depot

c


----------



## TahoeTomahawk

IYFGraphics said:


> Thank you Adam....if you read my post from this morning you saw my shock and disbelief that something that was working flawlessly could go in the crapper so quickly.
> 
> I have to admit we had good luck in the last year and a half using the open bottles but it wasn't without constant tinkering with the printer to get good results, like I said I thought it was just part of the joys of DTG printing.
> 
> This morning when I wrote the post I was pissed! after a few days of printing like everyone who doesn't own a DTG printer but wants one thinks they print, it turned into a major POS....in just a few hours on the bottles all the usual problems came right back.
> 
> It was like a hard slap in the face....really it was. Right now the printer has been printing non-stop for hours no hiccups, no misprints, no banding, just great print after great print.
> 
> Like I said I'm a convert..... there's no doubt in my mind that bagged ink is the best thing anyone can do to their DTG printer...Period.


Sounds like we can create a new thread called "Don't hate your TJet" along with the one I made for the Kiosk awhile back.


----------



## Printzilla

JeridHill said:


> or the DrinksRite Bagged Drinking System..... Bubbles allowed


I'll take a 20 liter pail, weekly recurring order.


----------



## spiderx1

TahoeTomahawk said:


> Agreed Randy, the MOD dampers are tough to work with on the Kiosk. On the MOD they seal the print head so accidental dripipng is not a prob. The best solution on the kiosk are the dampers from dtginks that have big filter. Plug and play


Will get some on order what we have is endangering the printhead if ink gets to the cables. However the bags are great. Just the dampers. Thanks


----------



## IYFGraphics

abmcdan said:


> Are you guys running your ink bags all the way empty? Sometimes my white ink coverage gets bad when I get to the last 10% or less of the bag.
> 
> Just curious if anyone is seeing the same issue.
> 
> Thanks,
> Andy


Andy,

When I was testing the Equipment Zone ink I purposely ran the ink down as low as I could, even folded the bag and used my fingers to move ink to the line connection, hung the bag like an IV....all of it worked with no ill effect. I'd say 99% of the ink was out of the bag when I started seeing a channel go light in the capping station.

Hope this helps.


----------



## IYFGraphics

TahoeTomahawk said:


> Sounds like we can create a new thread called "Don't hate your TJet" along with the one I made for the Kiosk awhile back.


LOL! yep I may do that after the tests are completed, it's truly amazing the difference bagged ink makes, we even did a test last night of HS (high speed - bi-directional) printing, we have never had any luck printing with bottled ink printing in bi-directional mode in any print resolution, yeah we could get a couple prints but it didn't take long and banding would start.

We printed a dozen full back prints in HS mode last night, not a single one banded and the last looked as good as the first.

This is how a DTG is suppose to print!


----------



## IYFGraphics

Ok....so we printed last night till midnight (we are still behind in our orders!) shut the printer down with the same cleaning I always do that being...wipe the bottom of the print head and bottom carriage area, clean the seal on the capping station, clean the wiper, a couple drops of cleaning solution in the capping station and shut it down for the night.

Turned it on this morning, no nozzle check, one ink purge, and it's printing perfectly.


----------



## JeridHill

IYFGraphics said:


> LOL! yep I may do that after the tests are completed, it's truly amazing the difference bagged ink makes, we even did a test last night of HS (high speed - bi-directional) printing, we have never had any luck printing with bottled ink printing in bi-directional mode in any print resolution, yeah we could get a couple prints but it didn't take long and banding would start.
> 
> We printed a dozen full back prints in HS mode last night, not a single one banded and the last looked as good as the first.
> 
> This is how a DTG is suppose to print!


This is why I have worked with Belquette for some time now. Their goal has been to create products that solve problems. Sure they've had their fair share of problems in the past, but overall this has been their goal.

There are a couple of other larger companies that degass their inks, one most likely in house and the other in-line on their printer. But this information isn't widely publicized. So when Belquette began to degas their ink, they began to share this information publicly as to why it's critical. So being open about it gives a better knowledge of the industry as a whole. This allows someone like Equipment Zone to come up with a bagged system because they see the merit in such a product after understanding the why's and seeing testimonials. It's the nature of business.

But up until that point, this information wasn't openly discussed, so no one knew of how the degassed inks truly performed. Jon, as you said before, you switched back to the bottled system and the problems started immediately. If that's not proof as to the benefits, I don't know what is. I imagine it's only a matter of time until every machine will have degassed inks in one form or another. It's the way these printers were designed from Epson, and for us to do anything different was one of the reasons there were so many problems.


----------



## IYFGraphics

JeridHill said:


> There are a couple of other larger companies that degass their inks, one most likely in house and the other in-line on their printer. But this information isn't widely publicized. So when Belquette began to degas their ink, they began to share this information publicly as to why it's critical. So being open about it gives a better knowledge of the industry as a whole. This allows someone like Equipment Zone to come up with a bagged system because they see the merit in such a product after understanding the why's and seeing testimonials. It's the nature of business.


I'm guessing that all OEM ink that is put in cartridges like Brother in which is a bag in a cart is manufactured with degassed ink? 



JeridHill said:


> But up until that point, this information wasn't openly discussed, so no one knew of how the degassed inks truly performed. Jon, as you said before, you switched back to the bottled system and the problems started immediately. If that's not proof as to the benefits, I don't know what is. I imagine it's only a matter of time until every machine will have degassed inks in one form or another. It's the way these printers were designed from Epson, and for us to do anything different was one of the reasons there were so many problems.


I can't say it enough....night and day difference between bottled and bagged ink...I guess the genie is out of the bottle now.

A question on this subject, I know there is/was some speculation on whether EZ's bagged ink is degassed or not and I can only base a response on what I was told by Harry that it is, we know it's been widely stated that Belquette's ink is degassed so the question is what would be the benefit if any to just bagging ink without degassing?

I can see where this would eliminate the air that is constant in a open bottled system or would it? the microscopic bubbles that would be present would in my mind eventually collapse...more and more of them until you had much bigger bubbles in the bag that are no longer microscopic. 

Anyway I guess the major question that needs to be answered for myself and anyone else who reads this thread down the road is......is there any advantage to bagging ink and not degassing? are there any OEMs that do this? and what is the downside to bagging but not degassing?

I'd say it's a given that the cost would be lower...what else?

TIA


----------



## DAGuide

There are three things that can happen with bagged ink and I discussed this specific topic at dinner with the Belquette team when we were in Las Vegas for the SGIA Show:
1. Just fill the bag with ink.
2. Vacuum fill the bag with ink.
3. Degas the ink, vacuum fill the bag with ink.

Degassing and not vacuum filling the bag with ink is counter-productive in my opinion as it will allow air in the bag before it is sealed and the shipping will cause the air to be agitated with the ink.

As for what is the benefit of each one, that can be debated on the forum for many days. I think a lot of it comes from perspective. Are you used to bottles of ink? If so, any of the three might be a substantial improvement. Are you use to degassed / vacuum filled ink and you go with just filled bags? Could be noticeable or might not be. Other factors (i.e. printer being used, altitude, temperature, humidity, maintenance, RIP,...) could easily affect the outcome and can be different from one dtg printer to another. Way too hard to make a general statement in my opinion.

This is why I still tell everyone that is interested in getting into dtg printing, be prepared to do your own testing. There are no universal settings that work for every shop. The minute there are, the competition will get extremely more competitive and larger companies (i.e. WalMart, Target, Walgreens,…) will be your “local” competition.

Just my thoughts,

Mark


----------



## JeridHill

IYFGraphics said:


> I'm guessing that all OEM ink that is put in cartridges like Brother in which is a bag in a cart is manufactured with degassed ink?


I would think Brother's would be the only one considered OEM. Yes, theirs is degassed. But just because someone puts ink in a cartridge doesn't mean it's degassed.



> A question on this subject, I know there is/was some speculation on whether EZ's bagged ink is degassed or not and I can only base a response on what I was told by Harry that it is, we know it's been widely stated that Belquette's ink is degassed so the question is what would be the benefit if any to just bagging ink without degassing?


I would imagine if EZ claims it is degassed, then we go by their word. Since they use a third party, even they couldn't say if the degassing process was done properly.

As for benefits of bagged ink (but not degassed) over open containers would be very similar to what the degassing process does. There would be better equalization of pressure (not pressurized but natural pressure from the ink flow process). This would cause you to be able to print without ink starvation. It would cause less clogging than open containers and of course you are never mixing old and new inks together.



> Anyway I guess the major question that needs to be answered for myself and anyone else who reads this thread down the road is......is there any advantage to bagging ink and not degassing? are there any OEMs that do this? and what is the downside to bagging but not degassing?


The major advantage is printhead life as well as clarity of print. I equate it to a car running on no oil. Pistons overheat and that causes a cracking in the head. Ink acts as a coolant in a printhead. So when you fire microscopic bubbles through the printhead, you are heating it up more and more. Some people go through so much ink, they don't have an opportunity for these bubbles to eventually collect together.

This is why Adam (TahoeTomahawk) was burning through printheads so quickly. Their volume was such that even if they had bagged ink at the time, they would still be going through the ink at a quick rate. Granted, you might be able to get a better life out of the printhead with just bagged ink as opposed to an open container, but not degassed ink.

These inks set with heat, so in theory, the more air that "fires" through the printhead, the hotter it gets. With the inks setting by heat, you begin to get buildup on the surface of your printhead and clogging starts to happen. This can be reduced with bagged ink, but the microscopic bubbles will still take their toll on the head over a period of time. Not only that, but when the nozzles are clogged, you get a lower quality of print and with more clogged nozzles, you have to overcompensate with the ink volumes. Now that you switched over, if you haven't already, try reducing your ink output to see if you can use less ink per print with still great results. I bet you can.


----------



## spiderx1

IMHO a ink that was bagged and excess air removed via simple vacum process still would be superior over bottled ink. Less exposure to air means less evaporation. Which means the ink will stay the same consistency. The bag laying on the side also provides for more even head pressure so you would not have to change elevation of the ink so often and remove the need to do top offs. White inks such as Tprint and Resolute, which appear to have a much higher rate if evaporation due to the chemical nature, could really benefit. Is just bagging as good as degassing and bagging, I think not. Is bagging with a general vacum seal better than bottled, I think so. IMHO


----------



## IYFGraphics

DAGuide said:


> There are three things that can happen with bagged ink and I discussed this specific topic at dinner with the Belquette team when we were in Las Vegas for the SGIA Show:
> 1. Just fill the bag with ink.
> 2. Vacuum fill the bag with ink.
> 3. Degas the ink, vacuum fill the bag with ink.
> 
> Degassing and not vacuum filling the bag with ink is counter-productive in my opinion as it will allow air in the bag before it is sealed and the shipping will cause the air to be agitated with the ink.
> 
> As for what is the benefit of each one, that can be debated on the forum for many days. I think a lot of it comes from perspective. Are you used to bottles of ink? If so, any of the three might be a substantial improvement. Are you use to degassed / vacuum filled ink and you go with just filled bags? Could be noticeable or might not be. Other factors (i.e. printer being used, altitude, temperature, humidity, maintenance, RIP,...) could easily affect the outcome and can be different from one dtg printer to another. Way too hard to make a general statement in my opinion.
> 
> This is why I still tell everyone that is interested in getting into dtg printing, be prepared to do your own testing. There are no universal settings that work for every shop. The minute there are, the competition will get extremely more competitive and larger companies (i.e. WalMart, Target, Walgreens,…) will be your “local” competition.
> 
> Just my thoughts,
> 
> Mark


I see you've added Target, and Walgreens to the mix....LOL!

Thanks for the reply, so do you know is the Brother ink for like the 782 degassed? I guess I'm more interested in the white ink then the CMYK.

TIA


----------



## IYFGraphics

spiderx1 said:


> IMHO a ink that was bagged and excess air removed via simple vacum process still would be superior over bottled ink. Less exposure to air means less evaporation. Which means the ink will stay the same consistency. The bag laying on the side also provides for more even head pressure so you would not have to change elevation of the ink so often and remove the need to do top offs. White inks such as Tprint and Resolute, which appear to have a much higher rate if evaporation due to the chemical nature, could really benefit. Is just bagging as good as degassing and bagging, I think not. Is bagging with a general vacum seal better than bottled, I think so. IMHO


Thanks Randy, that's really what I suspect also, just wanted someone else to kinda' verify that my thought process was correct.


----------



## JeridHill

IYFGraphics said:


> so do you know is the Brother ink for like the 782 degassed? I guess I'm more interested in the white ink then the CMYK.


Out of curiosity, why would it be the holy grail for white ink but not colors? The major difference between the white and colors is Titanium Dioxide, which will cause quicker clogging, but the overall principal is the same. Epson degasses both pigment and dye inks. The dye inks are much thinner than a pigment, yet they still go through this same process. On a Brother machine, they have one head per color, on your machine, you have one head for all colors. So if one color goes, you replace the entire head.

So to neglect the color ink goes against the very basic understanding of the effects air has on a print head.

I personally don't know much about the Brother machines, but I think it's safe to say they degas all of their inks regardless of printer. I'm sure someone can confirm this.


----------



## YoDan

MarkB
I agree with you on most items BUT #3  , as you still need some type of pressure to fill the bag not vacuum  unless it was a through type bag.
With filtered/degassed ink we first vacuum all the air completly from the bag than we fill it with filtered/degassed ink, this can be done using a bladder with pressure on the other side and some flow meters, etc, et,c and yes of course there are several different ways to do this correctly 
The outcome for us has also had some happy users 
Dan
*"HAPPY PRINTING"*


----------



## IYFGraphics

JeridHill said:


> As for benefits of bagged ink (but not degassed) over open containers would be very similar to what the degassing process does. There would be better equalization of pressure (not pressurized but natural pressure from the ink flow process). This would cause you to be able to print without ink starvation. It would cause less clogging than open containers and of course you are never mixing old and new inks together.


Ok...this is the response I was looking for, which explains a lot about the benefits of bagged ink over the open bottles. 




JeridHill said:


> The major advantage is printhead life as well as clarity of print.
> 
> These inks set with heat, so in theory, the more air that "fires" through the printhead, the hotter it gets. With the inks setting by heat, you begin to get buildup on the surface of your printhead and clogging starts to happen. This can be reduced with bagged ink, but the microscopic bubbles will still take their toll on the head over a period of time. Not only that, but when the nozzles are clogged, you get a lower quality of print and with more clogged nozzles, you have to overcompensate with the ink volumes. Now that you switched over, if you haven't already, try reducing your ink output to see if you can use less ink per print with still great results. I bet you can.


Makes prefect sense and easily anyone who understand the jetting process should now understand why degassing the ink is just as important as bagging the ink.

BTW...I will try the reducing the ink values on the next print job and report my findings.

Thank you.


----------



## allamerican-aeoon

I don't understand that why people makes big deal out of nothing. Just buy ink filling machine ($500-2000) or use grand size sylinge. Good machine will de-gas, filter at once. We have been doing this ages. Cost of cartridge/bag is so reasonable price also. labor: charge 8 cartridge at once and that is it. DIY is same as 1,2,3.


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## JeridHill

allamerican said:


> I don't understand that why people makes big deal out of nothing. Just buy ink filling machine ($500-2000) or use grand size sylinge. Good machine will de-gas, filter at once. We have been doing this ages. Cost of cartridge/bag is so reasonable price also. labor: charge 8 cartridge at once and that is it. DIY is same as 1,2,3. If any seller charges extra search for NO CHARGE


No offense Peter, but most people are in this to not have to worry about doing it themselves. If you have a company to run, you still would pay someone to do this for you. If you do it yourself, you take away from your production, so you lose money.

The degassing process when done right adds to the value of the product. Degassing is a time consuming process and if done incorrectly, you will destroy quite a bit of ink. It's not the same as putting ink in a bag.


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## IYFGraphics

allamerican said:


> I don't understand that why people makes big deal out of nothing. Just buy ink filling machine ($500-2000) or use grand size sylinge. Good machine will de-gas, filter at once. We have been doing this ages. Cost of cartridge/bag is so reasonable price also. labor: charge 8 cartridge at once and that is it. DIY is same as 1,2,3.


I guess I'm missing something here are you saying that a machine to fill/filter/degass is only $500-$2000?

If that is the case where are they sold I'd like to take a look at one.


----------



## JeridHill

IYFGraphics said:


> I guess I'm missing something here are you saying that a machine to fill/filter/degass is only $500-$2000?
> 
> If that is the case where are they sold I'd like to take a look at one.


Yeah me too. The one Belquette uses is a custom built machine. There are degassing filters etc, but they don't work as effectively as claimed and they are expensive. If it was a simple process, then everyone would be doing it. Not only that, but as I said before, it's very time consuming.

Let's say you bought 5 liters of ink to degas and you destroy it, because it can easily be destroyed if done improperly. You've just destroyed over $1,000 in ink. Not only that, but you need to microfilter the ink for best quality and of course bag it. There's more to it than just buying a machine, otherwise, I would have shipped you the ink from this location.


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## IYFGraphics

YoDan said:


> With filtered/degassed ink we first vacuum all the air completly from the bag than we fill it with filtered/degassed ink, this can be done using a bladder with pressure on the other side and some flow meters, etc, et,c and yes of course there are several different ways to do this correctly


Thanks Dan, That clears up another question I had about the filling process, the bladder surrounding the bag to keep pressure on the bag while being filled is the missing element I didn't understand.


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## YoDan

> I don't understand that why people makes big deal out of nothing. Just buy ink filling machine ($500-2000) or use grand size sylinge. Good machine will de-gas, filter at once. We have been doing this ages. Cost of cartridge/bag is so reasonable price also. labor: charge 8 cartridge at once and that is it. DIY is same as 1,2,3.


Sorry Peter I wish that it was that easy but it is not 



> Thanks Dan, That clears up another question I had about the filling process, the bladder surrounding the bag to keep pressure on the bag while being filled is the missing element I didn't understand.


That is just one part of a complicated but a desirable process 
Dan
*"HAPPY PRINTING"*


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## IYFGraphics

JeridHill said:


> Yeah me too. The one Belquette uses is a custom built machine. There are degassing filters etc, but they don't work as effectively as claimed and they are expensive. If it was a simple process, then everyone would be doing it. Not only that, but as I said before, it's very time consuming.
> 
> Let's say you bought 5 liters of ink to degas and you destroy it, because it can easily be destroyed if done improperly. You've just destroyed over $1,000 in ink. Not only that, but you need to microfilter the ink for best quality and of course bag it. There's more to it than just buying a machine, otherwise, I would have shipped you the ink from this location.


That's what I was thinking too.....I've read a little about degassification (sp) of different chemical compounds so I do kinda' understand what is involved in the process, it's not like you pore your compound in one end and nice degassed/filtered ink comes out the other.

I'm interested in what can go wrong to ruin a batch, if it's not going to give up too much information can someone explain what happens and where in the process the ink can be destroyed?


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## FatKat Printz

YoDan said:


> Sorry Peter I wish that it was that easy but it is not


Yeah, even if it was that easy.. I like the fact that someone else has to worry about the machine breaking down and not me.


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## TahoeTomahawk

allamerican said:


> I don't understand that why people makes big deal out of nothing.


There are so many of us fed up with the constant clogging and starvation on these machines from using bottled ink. After switching over to degassed / bagged ink, our problems have went away.

I'm not sure how you can say we're making a big deal out of nothing, when we can finally get back to printing instead of fighting with the machine over ink flow.


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## Belquette

Proper degassing of white ink is a big deal as there are no machines on the open market that actually handle the titanium correctly. It's very easy to destroy an entire batch if not monitored. Since we have very large volume users we have developed a tightly monitored system that tracks the process.

Our system was developed over 2 years ago when we first introduced our bagged ink. 
We currently degas over 20 liters of white ink per day, the process can take up to 24 hrs and varies batch to batch depending on several factors. 
In the end we can rest assured that it meets our spec and take ownership of each bag.


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## kevrokr

When you are at the end of your ink supply with the PrintsRite bags, you can see the remaining product (virtually none) and if there is any air in the bag (again virtually none). When you cannot see into the ink bag, this can be a little harder. So, since there will be very little ink left in a cartridge's bag, shake the remaining product and cut open the bag. If the ink that is remaining has ANY bubbles floating on top...the ink has not been properly degassed.


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## IYFGraphics

TahoeTomahawk said:


> There are so many of us fed up with the constant clogging and starvation on these machines from using bottled ink. After switching over to degassed / bagged ink, our problems have went away.
> 
> I'm not sure how you can say we're making a big deal out of nothing, when we can finally get back to printing instead of fighting with the machine over ink flow.


I have to agree with Adam, in the last 72 hrs I have witnessed my printer go from perfect prints on the EZ bagged ink, to a very problematic printer that had to be babysat on about every third print to keep the ink flowing on the bottled ink, and then back to printing perfectly on the Belquette bagged ink.

If that isn't a perfect example, in real life, witnessed by myself, on my own printer, in my environment, with two different vendors bagged ink I don't know what else would convince someone....granted I'm not the brightest bulb on the tree but....you also don't have to hit me over the head with a rock to get my attention either.


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## FatKat Printz

IYFGraphics said:


> .you also don't have to hit me over the head with a rock to get my attention either.


or a bag of ink..  told ya so !! C


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## IYFGraphics

I'll add one more aspect to our experiences in the last couple days....my wife, I love her, she a great woman and a hell of a artist, but also a huge skeptic on just about every claim made by companies. She has watched me for the last year and a half produce quality prints on our T-Jet2 on bottled ink, and every time I mentioned Belquette ink and wanting to try it her answer was always "why" it's more expensive, and what we have is working...true.

But even the great skeptic that she is has seen the light, printing on Wednesday with the bottled ink she saw how much more effort I had to put into the process to get a acceptable print that both of us were happy to put our name on, but only after using the EZ bagged ink did she see the difference, and last night after we were well into the Belquette ink and the printer was actually printing print after print unattended and producing great prints even in HS (bidirectional) mode....she was totally convinced.

So I guess if nothing else happens from this test and thread two converts were made, and one of them was a tough sell.


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## JeridHill

This is the biggest issue I've faced.

I don't want someone thinking we are just another "salesman" trying to push a product. For two years now we have been beating this drum and when fully explained, people understand. I can't tell you how many times I hear, "this is my last option". It needs to be the first option. We've had competitors constantly saying how it doesn't make a difference, but now are coming on board. It's taken 2 years, but it's starting to happen.


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## IYFGraphics

JeridHill said:


> This is the biggest issue I've faced.
> 
> I don't want someone thinking we are just another "salesman" trying to push a product. For two years now we have been beating this drum and when fully explained, people understand. I can't tell you how many times I hear, "this is my last option". It needs to be the first option. We've had competitors constantly saying how it doesn't make a difference, but now are coming on board. It's taken 2 years, but it's starting to happen.


Honestly Jerid.....

The info or news/experiences have to come from people like myself, Pat & Carla, or any other user to be valid in the public eye...granted this is my opinion on the subject but if there is a question of creditability or an agenda by a manufacturer or distributor then the public is automatically suspect of the information.

My own case in point...I'm here everyday posting trying to help people, reading and learning, I've read every post about bagged/degassed ink but when the info posted is by someone who has a vested interest in selling the product no matter how good or revolutionary that product may be it looks suspicious because of the poster.

I think this is why Rodney has such strict rules about "Self Promotion" to keep from muddying the waters so to speak with well for lack of a better term self-promotion.

To me there is so much more validity to a post by a user then a company....but it might just be that a little of my wife's skepticism has rubbed off on me.

JMHO


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## JeridHill

I agree wholeheartedly, that's why it's difficult to speak of a product without it appearing as if I'm trying to "sell" someone on something. Yes, end users are where the truth in sales comes. That's why it's taken 2 years. It took a handful of fed up and adventurous people to take the plunge and spread the word.


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## TahoeTomahawk

IYFGraphics said:


> every time I mentioned Belquette ink and wanting to try it her answer was always "why" it's more expensive


When we used Bottled Ink, then we simply looked for the cheapest price. After giving the Belquette inks a shot, we paid a bit more than bottles, but not much. The extra cost was easily saved by not having to do so many head cleans and purges and double white prints to get proper coverage or to cover up flaws. So in the end, I feel like we are actually saving money not paying more.
But, if we were paying more, I'm happy to do so because it's worth not having to deal with the ink flow issues and constant headaches.


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## IYFGraphics

TahoeTomahawk said:


> When we used Bottled Ink, then we simply looked for the cheapest price. After giving the Belquette inks a shot, we paid a bit more than bottles, but not much. The extra cost was easily saved by not having to do so many head cleans and purges and double white prints to get proper coverage or to cover up flaws. So in the end, I feel like we are actually saving money not paying more.
> But, if we were paying more, I'm happy to do so because it's worth not having to deal with the ink flow issues and constant headaches.


Agreed, the savings in ml's of ink that doesn't go into the waste ink bottle is easily enough to make up the price difference...not to mention double prints, or really knowing that a coverage issue isn't your pretreatment because sometimes for us it was hard to tell, the funny thing I'm noticing is that the humidity in the building is having less to do with ink flow also, the gauge on the front of the T-Jet says it's 33% up from 26% when I started printing again with no ill effect that I can tell.

Can someone else verify that with the bagged ink humidity isn't as big a factor as it was with an open bottled system?


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## TahoeTomahawk

I agree about the humidity, we struggled to keep it above 45% but with the bags we run fine in the low 30's no prob. When it gets to the upper 20's we fire up the misters.


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## IYFGraphics

Morning folks!

I now have a couple of the shirts we printed last week that have been washed & dried 7 times one was printed with the Equipment Zone bagged white ink, and the other printed with the Belquette bagged white ink....the Equipment Zone shirt has even been worn by me twice, once yesterday at the race track for 14 hrs and is in the washer right now, as soon as it's dry I'll post pictures of both so everyone can judge how the prints are holding up.


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## YoDan

I am curious as to the temps/times you used to cure these shirts and also your temps used and drying method/temp?
Dan
*"HAPPY PRINTING"*


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## IYFGraphics

YoDan said:


> I am curious as to the temps/times you used to cure these shirts and also your temps used and drying method/temp?
> Dan
> *"HAPPY PRINTING"*


Dan,

Temp/Time to cure the ink was 330-340F for 180 sec, this is with light to no pressure basically a hover but with the press closed and locked (all the pressure backed off) it's an Hotronix auto open press I do this so I can walk away from it and it will pop open without being attended, of course this is covered with coated parchment paper.

We normally cure our prints with underbase at 320F for 190 sec but with 100 shirts on a T-Jet2 I was looking for any time saving I could get, so I opted to try raising the press temp and decreasing the dwell time to see how that would work.

Both shirts were washed each time on a regular cycle in cold water with other clothes including jeans, they were not turned inside out, dried the same, regular cycle (perma press on our dryer) along with the same clothes they were washed with including jeans and just how they came out of the washer is how they went into the dryer. (what I mean was no special care was taken) We try to simulate what customers would do....they had the crap beat out of them! LOL!

Hope this helps.


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## IYFGraphics

Ok so here's the pictures of the shirts after being washed 7 times with no special care given to the garment.

Both are Gildan ultra cotton (100% cotton G-2000) the tee shirt was printed with the Equipment Zone bagged white ink, the tank top printed with the Belquette bagged white ink.

I will mention that I used two different cameras to take these pictures, the wife and I are event photographers and the normal camera I use is a Canon Rebel xti with an 10-22mm 2.8 wide angle lens, the pictures outside were taken with this camera, the close-up pictures were taken with an Olympus 8mp Stylus 810, the reason I used the Olympus is it has a very good macro function for closeups....here's the pics.

First the Belquette shirt.

[media]http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn196/dragtopia/bqshirt1.jpg[/media]The Equipment Zone Shirt.....

[media]http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn196/dragtopia/ezshirt1a.jpg[/media]A comparison of the two the Belquette print is on the left and the Equipment Zone print is on the right.

[media]http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn196/dragtopia/washtest1.jpg[/media]Closeups of the car.....Belquette first.

[media]http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn196/dragtopia/bqtest2.jpg[/media]And the Equipment Zone Print....

[media]http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn196/dragtopia/eztest2.jpg[/media]Now the scull......Belquette first....

[media]http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn196/dragtopia/bqtest3.jpg[/media]And the Equipment Zone print....

[media]http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn196/dragtopia/eztest3.jpg[/media]Other scull pics...Belquette

[media]http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn196/dragtopia/bqtest1.jpg[/media]And the Equipment Zone print...

[media]http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn196/dragtopia/eztest1.jpg[/media]Honestly both prints look great after all the washes, I do see some magenta washout on the Equipment Zone shirt, but to be totally truthful I have worn this shirt twice and yesterday for 14 hrs a lot of that time leaning up against things like concrete retaining walls to take pictures of cars.

I'm very/extremely pleased with both, a certain amount of washout IMHO is normal, the small amount of color variations between the two prints are acceptable to us and our customer, and could very well have be created by the printer not the ink, frankly at this point in testing I'd have to say they are both great products.

Please keep in mind that these shirts were not printed back to back, the Equipment Zone shirt was printed at the beginning of the production run, the Belquette shirt at the end of the run.

The other thing I need to mention is that all of the CMYK ink used was bottled not bagged only the white in was bagged/degasses ink, our printer at the moment is kinda' a hybrid using bottles for CMYK and bags for white. 

But we're not done testing.....I want to see the Belquette ink on different designs that we will be printing this week, we have a few less than 20 pc orders to print then another 100 shirt order that the artwork is being finalized right now...alas it doesn't look like it's going to require an underbase but we'll see which design they choose.


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## allamerican-aeoon

"But we're not done testing.....I want to see the Belquette ink on different designs that we will be printing this week, we have a few less than 20 pc orders to print then another 100 shirt order that the artwork is being finalized right now...alas it doesn't look like it's going to require an underbase but we'll see which design they choose."

they are all same ink from DuPont!!!!!!! and we all trying new inks when mfg keep sending to us. Printer prints. Inks are same. Who buys more ink from DuPont they sell cheaper to them. I am pretty sure BQ or EQ is not in top discount catagory reseller. Steve in AUS and Singapole HUKUTOMEE M&R are one of them. Not many in USA. most are 2nd buyer. AUS to USA. Sing-USA. Some direct from Dupont but pay higher tag.
EQ ink = AA ink = BQ ink = DTG ink = DJ ink =Dan ink = MR ink = whoelse ink. Not ink, it's printer and RIP. Bag this bag that is child playing = sales. DuPont ink and cheaper the BEST!!!! Ask who's ink are they.
Same as Anajet says theirs is not Epson printer modified (Their sale person told everybody at every show). 
My ink is better is not TRUE!!!!!! Hello!!!!!


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## IYFGraphics

Thank you Peter for your comment, I think everyone knows that the ink that Equipment Zone and Belquette are selling is Dupont ink, the part that is important to myself and others who don't want to buy a new printer is that bagged/degassed Dupont ink does make my printer (T-Jet2) and a lot of older technology DTG printers perform as they should with a lot less problems over a bulk open bottled ink delivery system.

So while we are on the subject, I was told this week that the Neoflex uses bagged/degassed ink in a cartridge....is this correct? All the pictures of the Neoflex I have seen shows it with refillable cartridges, and on your site you sell bottles of textile ink (Dupont) to use in the printer.


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## Printzilla

They offer both, because some users are hung up on price, and we all know bulk bottles are the cheapest. However, my understanding from Justin Choi, is the vast majority use the bagged version of the textile inks.


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## IYFGraphics

Printzilla said:


> They offer both, because some users are hung up on price, and we all know bulk bottles are the cheapest. However, my understanding from Justin Choi, is the vast majority use the bagged version of the textile inks.


Thanks Marc, it wasn't that I didn't believe you (I do)...

Peter is making kinda' a big deal about it's all Dupont ink and kinda' insinuating that it doesn't make a difference how it's packaged because it's still Dupont ink. (at least that's what I get from his comment) and because of that I'm interested in his opinion on why the Neoflex is offered both ways since it's just packaging.

Maybe I misinterpreted what he was saying, he's a little hard to follow sometimes.


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## FatKat Printz

allamerican said:


> they are all same ink from DuPont!!!!!!!


Good to know!!! so then why is that people are happy with bagged DUPONT ink?? 




allamerican said:


> Who buys more ink from DuPont they sell cheaper to them. I am pretty sure BQ or EQ is not in top discount catagory reseller. Steve in AUS and Singapole HUKUTOMEE M&R are one of them. Not many in USA. most are 2nd buyer. AUS to USA. Sing-USA. Some direct from Dupont but pay higher tag.
> EQ ink = AA ink = BQ ink = DTG ink = DJ ink =Dan ink = MR ink = whoelse ink. Not ink, it's printer and RIP. Bag this bag that is child playing = sales. DuPont ink and cheaper the BEST!!!! Ask who's ink are they.


Honestly, I could care less whose ink is whose. I know that my printer works and I know that when before I converted I printed half of a an order with bottles and the other half with bags. I had to replace the bottled garments because of the inconsistency and starvation..there was no way I could send the order together.

So since they were the same DUPONT inks > same printer > same settings > same environment what made the difference?? wait difference is not the word what made the improvement??

You wanna discuss price?? 

1 liter of white

*SWF $299 Bottle
*Belquette $280 Bag $259 bottled
*EZ $249 Bottle
*AAS $289 Bottle
*Dtginks $225.00 Bottle

Guess what!! I don't care!!

with the bags :

-Don't mix new ink with old ink

-Don't worry about a "bad batch" of ink 
(filtered at the time of order)

-When I run out of ink I run out of ink!!! bag is empty

-No more leveling game 

-less than 10 minutes _both printers_ (nozzle check- start up) in the morning
(I wait on the heat press now instead of other way around)

-No more test printing 

-Use to cross my fingers when I hit load 

-I get to stop printing whenever I want, not the printer deciding the ,printer runs me into the ground

-I can take rush jobs without worry

I can go on and on... but remember its just DuPont Ink


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## ajspin

Are the bagged inks for sale at Equipment zone yet, could not find them or pricing, any body know when and what that will be?


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## IYFGraphics

ajspin said:


> Are the bagged inks for sale at Equipment zone yet, could not find them or pricing, any body know when and what that will be?


While I can't answer for Equipment Zone or Harry, I will tell you what I know.

When I finished testing the EZ bagged ink about a week ago I called Harry to discuss my findings with how the ink worked and to inform him that I was going to test the Belquette bagged ink also. During the conversation I asked if the ink was going to be offered to the public anytime soon and he replied it would be a few more weeks and it would be listed on their site.

This is the sum total of the information I have about it, I would suggest you call and talk to Harry directly, my personal opinion is that if they solved the bubbles in the bags then it is ready for prime time but this is JMHO.

I'll post my disclaimer again, I do not work for Equipment Zone nor am I a spokesman for EZ or Belquette for that matter, anything I post is my opinion based on my experiences.

Hope this helps.


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## FatKat Printz

IYFGraphics said:


> I do not work for Equipment Zone nor am I a spokesman for EZ or Belquette for that matter, anything I post is my opinion based on my experiences.
> 
> Hope this helps.


Same here, as it was mentioned before the bags was our last hope to save our business, our sanity, and our pocketbooks. 

I am just an end user who found the light at the end of a dark, frustrating, expensive tunnel. 

DTG is not for the weak or ill-hearted.. 

to add to Jon's disclaimer.. we are all experienced DTG users some longer than others. If you have any questions about this please PM anyone of us and we will be more than happy to speak to you.


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## YoDan

> *Dtginks $250.50 Bottle


Wrong Pat 
Dan
*"HAPPY PRINTING"*


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## IYFGraphics

Well were coming to the end of our testing of the Belquette bagged ink, I'll have a post in a couple days with the latest pictures.

We had a break in printing for a couple days waiting for garments and I thought it would be a good chance to just do my shut down maintenance and let the printer sit, I was curious to see how quickly I'd get white ink separation in the lines and the bag of white ink.

I never really got a chance to test the EZ ink as far as separation from sitting we blew through that 660ml doing production and the printer never sat long enough (over night only).

Anyway the printer has sat now for over 48 hrs and the second bag of ink I bought has sat for days without being touched (no movement to keep the pigment suspended) the bag attached to the printer was either inverted every day or poked with my finger to create movement in the bag to cause agitation.

Having said that as I have been through this entire process I'm once again impressed with the lack of separation I'm seeing, on the bottled ink you could see separation in the ink lines easily in a 24 hr period, after over 48 hrs I do see a little starting at the top of the ink lines but honestly it's not enough that I would even be concern about pulling it out with a syringe to avoid poor coverage.

The more impressive thing is that the bag connected to the printer and the spare bag really show no signs of separation at all that I can tell.

So I'm curious if the rest of the people who have switched to bagged ink have witnessed this also, is it common or did I get a extra special batch? 

On a side note......when I bought the ink from Equipment Zone I purchased a complete set of ink (white & CMYK) I have for all of the tests been using the bagged white from both vendors and bulk CMYK bottles to use up my stores of bottled ink. At the end of my last order my black bottle was low enough that I was ready to change it over to the bagged black, the kit I got from EZ included the ink and fittings to connect the bags to the existing lines from the bulk bottle system. What I found was that the existing line was too short to connect to the new bag and not put added tension on the line, connector, or really even let the bag lay flat.

This might be because of the way I've had to cobble a shelf to house the bags (probably) but even if the old bottle holder was removed from the shelf the area where the lines egress from the printer it would be very tight to fit 7 bags of ink or even 5 bags of ink with the Belquette single bag system using the existing lines from the bulk bottled system.

Thank goodness Belquette included extra lines in their kit, I simply removed the black line from the ink chain and replaced it with the longer line that Belquette provided with their kit.....thank you Belquette! This enabled the bag to lay flat and provided extra room for more bags.

IMHO I think Equipment Zone should consider including extra ink lines and connectors in their kit or at least as a option, it would ease the transition from their bulk bottled system to their bagged system on some printers, I don't believe the added cost would be much but would add a lot in value to the system.

I'll have another post in a few days with pics and closing comments on both ink systems as far as my opinions and experiences using both ink systems.


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## FatKat Printz

YoDan said:


> Wrong Pat
> Dan
> *"HAPPY PRINTING"*


Sorry Dan.. 


***psst...shop here ~> dtginks.com for DTG parts***


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## Belquette

> The more impressive thing is that the bag connected to the printer and the spare bag really show no signs of separation at all that I can tell.


Since the level of dissolved oxygen is so low it retains the balance and integrity of the white ink much better. In addition the custom bag we use has been designed with a very low preciosity rating that also extends the life.
_There is a lot more a play then meets the eye._



> So I'm curious if the rest of the people who have switched to bagged ink have witnessed this also, is it common or did I get a extra special batch?


_"Every batch is a special batch"_....every white bag of ink goes through the same process but varies depending on the dissolved oxygen levels and viscosity of that batch. 
This process optimizes every batch we get from Dupont making it the best it can be. We are now degassing and processing 150 liters of white ink per day running 2 shifts to keep up with the pre-Xmas demand, that's a lot of t-shirts...which is a testament of how well it's working for our users.



> This might be because of the way I've had to cobble a shelf to house the bags (probably) but even if the old bottle holder was removed from the shelf the area where the lines egress from the printer it would be very tight to fit 7 bags of ink or even 5 bags of ink with the Belquette single bag system using the existing lines from the bulk bottled system.


Having only one white ink bag simplifies the connection scheme and saves space, but more importantly it keeps the integrity of all white ink channels in balance. In addition there is only one bag to maintain.


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## TahoeTomahawk

Belquette said:


> Having only one white ink bag simplifies the connection scheme and saves space, but more importantly it keeps the integrity of all white ink channels in balance. In addition there is only one bag to maintain.


Totally agree. Hated the 3 separate bottles of white ink and would hate it even more if there were 3 bags of ink.


----------



## bornover

EZ went to three bottles over the one bottle on US Screen's second bulk system so you knew if one of the white heads got clogged. You could tell because the levels of ink in the white bottles would not match as you used them up. When one white nozzle is having issues you may not be able to tell easily because you still get enough white coverage from the other nozzles. It would be the same with three bags if you did have a clogged white nozzle.


----------



## FatKat Printz

If my white ever looks funny i do a nozzle check. At no point when i had the bottles did i look at the individual bottles when i had a problem. I kept them all level so essentially having the same effect of one bottle or bag. One bag makes much more sense all the way around, Less cost for both sides.


----------



## bornover

For me, there were a few times when I noticed the white in one bottle was higher. I would do a nozzle check and one of the white nozzles had clogs.

If I had not known I had a clog because of the ink level differences, I might have gone too long and permanently lost that white nozzle. The white underbase was not showing any lack of coverage because it was not a super dense one to begin with. The prints were still coming out great, but I could have lost the white in one channel permanently that would have caused me problems when I would have needed a super dense white coverage.

There are advantages to both methods. A person can certainly run three bags or not if they want because there is no limitation forcing one way or the other with the bags (as it is with bottles as well).


----------



## IYFGraphics

Well....Just when I think I'm coming to the close of my testing I get another curve ball..

Friday I received the shelf for the T-Jet2 from Equipment Zone (thanks Harry), it's well thought out, uses the old mount to the printer that hangs on the side with the height ruler so you can easily set the shelf height. The top of the shelf measures 13" x 13" and has ample area for all the bags and a nice scalloped piece of metal that acts as a bag stop and has clearance for the lines to feed to the ink chain. The shelf has a built in slope to the printer so adding something to prop the bags up isn't necessary.

Here's a few pics.

[media]http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn196/dragtopia/ezshelf2.jpg[/media][media]http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn196/dragtopia/ezshelf5.jpg[/media][media]http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn196/dragtopia/ezshelf9.jpg[/media][media]http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn196/dragtopia/ezshelf8.jpg[/media]Also now included with the kit for Equipment Zone is a bag of line connectors, and a length of ink line just in-case you might need them during the installation along with a couple of velcro pads.

Here's a pic of the kit.

[media]http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn196/dragtopia/ezshelf1.jpg[/media]Also...Equipment sent me another ink set (3 bags) the number of bubbles in these bags is greatly reduced, still a few but nothing like the beta ink I used before and to be honest one of the bags I got from Belquette had a few small bubbles in it also, there's a few more than that in this ink but it looks like they have the process down now.

[media]http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn196/dragtopia/ezshelf7.jpg[/media][media]http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn196/dragtopia/ezshelf6.jpg[/media]So there you go....

Hope this helps.


----------



## equipmentzone

IYFGraphics said:


> Well....Just when I think I'm coming to the close of my testing I get another curve ball..
> 
> Friday I received the shelf for the T-Jet2 from Equipment Zone (thanks Harry), it's well thought out, uses the old mount to the printer that hangs on the side with the height ruler so you can easily set the shelf height. The top of the shelf measures 13" x 13" and has ample area for all the bags and a nice scalloped piece of metal that acts as a bag stop and has clearance for the lines to feed to the ink chain. The shelf has a built in slope to the printer so adding something to prop the bags up isn't necessary.
> 
> Also now included with the kit for Equipment Zone is a bag of line connectors, and a length of ink line just in-case you might need them during the installation along with a couple of velcro pads.
> 
> Here's a pic of the kit.
> 
> Also...Equipment sent me another ink set (3 bags) the number of bubbles in these bags is greatly reduced, still a few but nothing like the beta ink I used before and to be honest one of the bags I got from Belquette had a few small bubbles in it also, there's a few more than that in this ink but it looks like they have the process down now.
> 
> Hope this helps.





When you get to the point where you are using our bulk system with all our ink bags on it you will see that the bags line up fairly neatly on the shelf, similar to how it looks on the Veloci-Jet XL version.

Harry
Equipment Zone


----------



## IYFGraphics

Well we're all through with our testing and we have tried to devise some sort of rating system to rate the ink, but in the end we just decided to give each system a simple pass/fail on given categories.

Coverage, Brightness, Ink Separation, Ink Starvation/Ink Flow/Clogging, Packaging/Bags, Ease of Usage, Ease Of Connection/Switching Bags, Ease Of Conversion, 
Company/Customer Satisfaction.

*I give both products a passing grade in all categories*, really in our tests, with our printer, in our environment, while I could tell a huge difference between bottled ink and bagged ink in performance, between the two vendors products they appeared to perform the same, whether issues would arise in long term usage of either product I really can't say but I doubt either would cause issues like an open bottled bulk ink delivery system.

One item I might mention is that the kits I received from both companies are just that kits, they require a certain amount of knowledge of the ink delivery system to install, while it's all pretty academic or easy to do if you understand the how/why ink is delivered to the printhead you shouldn't have a problem with the conversions.

Depending on your printer and what is included in the kit you receive you may or may not need to fabricate or purchase some form of bag holder/shelf that is either fixed at the correct height or is adjustable to get the proper flow/pressure needed for your printer, as with everything in the DTG world neither is a totally plug & print system. 

There is air that may need to be bled out when you convert, or lines that may need to be replaced, or fittings that need to be installed, if your uncomfortable with any of these things then a conversion to bagged ink may not be for you, or you may want to hire someone to install the system for you.

I've said it before in this thread and others that I'm now a convert, I do believe that a bagged ink delivery system is vastly superior to a open bulk bottled ink delivery system...even as Peter points out it's all still Dupont ink.

I look at bagged/degassed/micro filtered ink as a further step in the process of creating a ink, taking it to the next level if you will, or a further step in the refinement of the ink production.

Here's a few pics....

This is the 500ml Belquette bag coming to the end of it's life.

[media]http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn196/dragtopia/belquettebagend1.jpg[/media]And this is the underbase quality it's still printing..

[media]http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn196/dragtopia/belquettebagprint1.jpg[/media]And another....

[media]http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn196/dragtopia/testprint2.jpg[/media]The finished product...

[media]http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn196/dragtopia/testprint1.jpg[/media]A couple other prints we did with the Belquette ink...

[media]http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn196/dragtopia/testprint5.jpg[/media][media]http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn196/dragtopia/testprint4.jpg[/media]And lastly something very impressive is a Belquette bag that has sat over a week without being agitated, no noticeable separation is occurring in the bag....too cool! 

[media]http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn196/dragtopia/testprint3.jpg[/media]I would also like to thank both vendors for several things like not participating in this thread...let me explain, I thought at first that Harry would contribute to the thread, that it would be in EZ's best interest to, but as the thread has progressed I was at first surprised that neither of the vendors contributed much to the thread so many times in other threads it has turned into a "mine is better then yours" kinda' situation where all the parties started to look bad in the public eye...IMHO. Later I came to the realization that their input wasn't necessary at all and I think in that regard both vendors were smart not to turn the thread into another "mine is better" it shows that they are both confident enough in their product to let it speak for itself...and to that I say Thank You! to both Belquette and Equipment Zone.

I would like to thank Belquette for really starting the bulk bagged ink aftermarket craze, for doing it right, investing the time and money in R&D and equipment to bring a very high quality product to all of us, for being professional and open about their products, for offering a very nicely thoughtout kit that basically includes everything you need for free with the ink purchase, and for their informational posts describing the technical aspects of their product, while the posts were not heavy handed they were informative in content and to the point.

I'd like to thank Harry at Equipment Zone for thinking of me, giving our shop the opportunity to test a new product, for not trying to sway me in any direction but like Belquette letting the product speak for itself, also for listening to my comments about the product and valuing my opinion...changing a few things about the product like offering connectors and ink lines if needed, and for offering a choice in the market place.

So who is the winner in our testing? Really it's all of us that choose to switch to bagged ink for our DTG printers, I may not have been the best person to do this test, maybe Mark (DAGuide) would have given you more scientific data, or Marc (Printzilla) could have given you production/usage figures like the cost per print which I won't do, maybe Pat/Carla (FatKat Printz) because they have been using Belquette ink for a long time or Adam (tahoetomahawk) because of his excellent thread about "Not Hating Your Kiosk", all of these people have played a role in this thread and really convincing me to give it a try bagged ink over bottles, but unfortunately right or wrong your stuck with me and my findings.

I invite everyone who has a DTG printer that has repeated problems with their ink delivery system, white ink separation, ink starvation, excessive banding, poor coverage, etc to give bagged ink a try, either company both Belquette and Equipment Zone will be very willing to work with you, to provide you with what you need to convert your printer,all of us here on TSF will help you if you have problems, my personal opinion is that you will find by switching your printer to bagged ink your spoilage will go down, miss prints will decrease, ink usage will decline by not sending down to the waste tank doing repeated purges/cleanings so you cost per print should go down and your profit per shirt should increase.

In closing I have to say if there is a down side to a bagged ink delivery system I sure don't see it, but as always your mileage may vary from mine.

I hope this thread helps others in the future that suffer the same problems we have, if you have any questions or comments just give me a shout or post here.

And of course a disclaimer: I do not work or was I paid by either company (Belquette - Equipment Zone) to test their products, the information in this thread posted by me is my own opinion based on my tests in my environment, with my DTG printer, you may or may not have the same results, experiences, or opinion that I have, as always you should consult with your equipment distributor about switching ink delivery systems and consider any possible warranty issues that may arise in changing your ink delivery system while under any type of warranty.

Take care.


----------



## YoDan

I would be intersted in which one you have selected to use with your printer and the price differences 
Dan
*"HAPPY PRINTING"*


----------



## IYFGraphics

YoDan said:


> I would be intersted in which one you have selected to use with your printer and the price differences
> Dan
> *"HAPPY PRINTING"*


Honestly Dan.....I can't say at this point, I like both systems, I'm currently using Belquette on the printer and have 3 bags of EZ ink sitting here to use when the Belquette is finished, I believe the Equipment Zone ink is going to be cheaper per ml but that isn't always a deciding factor.

I like the single bag feeding all three white channels for it's simplicity, but had the same printing results from the 3 bag system of Equipment Zones which offers more ink at the printer (660ml vs 500 ml). I like the bag/ink line connectors on the Ez ink, it's well thought out not that there's anything wrong with Belquetts because there isn't, it's just two different ways to attack the same problem.

As you can see here....it's really had to find a problem or complaint with either, they are different in how they connect to the printer but once that is done the performance is too close to call IMHO.

As far as delivery to our location both vendors are two days away, the Belquette ink is truly impressive as far as separation in the bag and ink lines, but the equipment Zone ink showed a similar lack of separation. 

To me if I use a auto analogy it's like comparing a 2k7 Camry to a 2k8 Camry, both are really good cars, one might be a little more refined, or one might have a cheaper price, but at the end of the day they both provide the same level of transportation, similar mileage, similar comfort/safety/convenience, as you can guess it will ultimately come down to price....and if both vendors find parity in their pricing? It'll come down to who you want to deal with as a company.

Hope this helps.


----------



## sirslickenstein

FatKat Printz said:


> Good to know!!! so then why is that people are happy with bagged DUPONT ink??
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Honestly, I could care less whose ink is whose. I know that my printer works and I know that when before I converted I printed half of a an order with bottles and the other half with bags. I had to replace the bottled garments because of the inconsistency and starvation..there was no way I could send the order together.
> 
> So since they were the same DUPONT inks > same printer > same settings > same environment what made the difference?? wait difference is not the word what made the improvement??
> 
> You wanna discuss price??
> 
> 1 liter of white
> 
> *SWF $299 Bottle
> *Belquette $280 Bag $259 bottled
> *EZ $249 Bottle
> *AAS $289 Bottle
> *Dtginks $225.00 Bottle
> 
> Guess what!! I don't care!!
> 
> with the bags :
> 
> -Don't mix new ink with old ink
> 
> -Don't worry about a "bad batch" of ink
> (filtered at the time of order)
> 
> -When I run out of ink I run out of ink!!! bag is empty
> 
> -No more leveling game
> 
> -less than 10 minutes _both printers_ (nozzle check- start up) in the morning
> (I wait on the heat press now instead of other way around)
> 
> -No more test printing
> 
> -Use to cross my fingers when I hit load
> 
> -I get to stop printing whenever I want, not the printer deciding the ,printer runs me into the ground
> 
> -I can take rush jobs without worry
> 
> I can go on and on... but remember its just DuPont Ink


This sounds like heaven...I will be calling Belquette tomorrow. I spent 4 hours printing 6 shirts and 2 are scrap due to the white ink BS...not to mention all the ink wasted on head cleanings. Thanks for the posts.


----------



## IYFGraphics

sirslickenstein said:


> This sounds like heaven...I will be calling Belquette tomorrow. I spent 4 hours printing 6 shirts and 2 are scrap due to the white ink BS...not to mention all the ink wasted on head cleanings. Thanks for the posts.


Bill,

I think you'll find a tremendous difference between bottled ink and bagged ink in your print quality, consistency of underbase coverage, brightness of the white ink, IMHO it really is the holy grail of DTG printing.....be sure to let us know how it works for you.


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## FatKat Printz

sirslickenstein said:


> This sounds like heaven...I will be calling Belquette tomorrow. I spent 4 hours printing 6 shirts and 2 are scrap due to the white ink BS...not to mention all the ink wasted on head cleanings. Thanks for the posts.


PM me if you need any help..


----------



## sirslickenstein

I just order 2 bags of white from Belquette and the tubing with the adapter for 1 tube to 3 tubes. I called EQ zone but they only have the 250ml bags at the same price as the bottles $69.95 each...so it's $280 per liter either way. I'll try the Belquette and I know it will be better than the bottle.


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## TahoeTomahawk

One thing to keep in mind is that you save $$ on wasted ink since you wont be doing constant head cleans and purges to get a good nozzle check.


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## sirslickenstein

I could care less about the cost difference. At this point the $30 is nothing compared to the ink lost on 10 head cleans/hour, the time (which is the most valuable) and the frustrastion on having to check the white coverage and then power off, power on and re-print the white. All the tee's I did today had either white base or was white and black print...so I did many 2 pass and some 3 pass of white ink. I went through the whole maint clean and still was bad until the last 2 tees. I am "all in" with the bags. I will get them end of week and start them next Wed.


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## TahoeTomahawk

Anyone converting to the bags, I would highly recommend buying 3 dampers from Dan @ dtginks.com. They have a large filter for the white ink and can be easily used with the large ink tubes supplied by Belquette.


----------



## IYFGraphics

TahoeTomahawk said:


> Anyone converting to the bags, I would highly recommend buying 3 dampers from Dan @ dtginks.com. They have a large filter for the white ink and can be easily used with the large ink tubes supplied by Belquette.


You know I agree with you Adam and I wish I could put dampers on our T-Jet2 just for that very reason, but the thing I find is with the bagged ink that has been micro-filtered there aren't any large particles in the ink, not saying that the larger filter wouldn't be a plus, just that unlike the bottled ink that we had to use a paint filter to strain it, the bagged ink doesn't really show any of the properties that the bottled stuff did....other than separation over time which is greatly diminished/reduced/slowed down.

When you remove air from the ink delivery system it really does change a lot of the characteristics of the white ink, at least that is MHO.


----------



## sirslickenstein

The big problem I see with the bottles is that every time you go to put ink in that you have to open the bottle and there is always some dried ink that can go into the bottle and clog down the line some where. This will be eliminated with the bags I would think. Plus less mess when you miss the bottle.


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## FatKat Printz

sirslickenstein said:


> The big problem I see with the bottles is that every time you go to put ink in that you have to open the bottle and there is always some dried ink that can go into the bottle and clog down the line some where. This will be eliminated with the bags I would think. Plus less mess when you miss the bottle.


Yes!! less mess.. are you just doing white right now??


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## TahoeTomahawk

Jon,
I really like the cartridges too, too bad they hold so much ink and you have to shake them to keep the ink agitated. I wish I could switch back to carts at some point.


----------



## IYFGraphics

sirslickenstein said:


> The big problem I see with the bottles is that every time you go to put ink in that you have to open the bottle and there is always some dried ink that can go into the bottle and clog down the line some where. This will be eliminated with the bags I would think. Plus less mess when you miss the bottle.


Bill,

It only took one time for that to happen to us and I made a trip to a local automotive paint supply store and bought a box of the paper paint filters, they have a very fine micron screen and I just put a funnel in a clean container with the paper filter inside, poured a few ounces of ink into the container then poured that into the ink bottles on the printer, it really helped a lot.

I even use the filters with the Fastink dark pretreatment to filter out the heavy solids that would plug up the Wagner sprayer nozzle, also a coffee filter will also work in a pinch.

Hope this helps.


----------



## sirslickenstein

Yup I should have done that, but now I won't have to with the white. I will do it with the CMYK, but there is seldom a problem with these. As far as pretreat, I use a spray bottle and paint roller...for some reason I didn't get the Wagner sprayer when I bought my TJET2. I'll have to take some pics of my assembly line setup and post them.


----------



## sirslickenstein

I HAVE BEEN CONVERTED! Well I blew thru my second Belquette bag and no problems. I did try and see how far I could go with the end of the first bag and it ran out on my underbase. I have the empty bag as a reminder how far you can go. I can't remember ever seeing the white ink go unto the tee and being shiny wet due to the heavy coating from clear jets! I am NEVER going back to bottles, but now I may have to reduce my underbase settings from medium to a custom to save on ink. I now have a whole liter of bottled white that I won't use. I may try EQ Zone's inks, but I don't want to have to change out 3 bags (smaller) at a time. Each time you change a bag you lose a little ink. I would love to see 5 liter bags, just change once every other month or so.


----------



## FatKat Printz

sirslickenstein said:


> I HAVE BEEN CONVERTED! Well I blew thru my second Belquette bag and no problems. I did try and see how far I could go with the end of the first bag and it ran out on my underbase. I have the empty bag as a reminder how far you can go. I can't remember ever seeing the white ink go unto the tee and being shiny wet due to the heavy coating from clear jets! I am NEVER going back to bottles, but now I may have to reduce my underbase settings from medium to a custom to save on ink. I now have a whole liter of bottled white that I won't use. I may try EQ Zone's inks, but I don't want to have to change out 3 bags (smaller) at a time. Each time you change a bag you lose a little ink. I would love to see 5 liter bags, just change once every other month or so.


We always go as far as we can go and its usually on the underbase so we just hit print underbase again and its fine.
The ink we are losing in each bag isn't even close to the ink we lost with the bottles since we were adding new ink to old ink as we look back on it now we were losing all that ink too because we never knew when we fully used up that old ink since it was just mixed together. 

As nice as 5 liter bag sounds, I would rather keep fresh ink and change out the 500 ml bags often. For most people that are converting a 5 liter bag would not be feasible to shake as well as the smaller bags.

Also, if we have a slow week or more white then darks. We can just switch to the 250ml bag so its nice having the two options. 

Best of luck to you...PM me if you have any questions


----------



## TahoeTomahawk

Congrats Bill,
we are still on the same print head we were when we converted in 2009, and our ink still puddles. That is just amazing as we go through about a liter of white ink a week on the machine, we were swapping print heads every few months when on the bottle.
Soon you will realize how much $$ you are actually saving by being on the bags.


----------



## sirslickenstein

I just called Belquette and their white ink is on sale for $200 a liter until Dec 30th!!! Ordered 3 liters...I almost ordered 5 liters but I just couldn't deal with spending a $1000 on ink at 1 shot, but I will probably order more before the 30th anyway.


----------



## FatKat Printz

sirslickenstein said:


> I just called Belquette and their white ink is on sale for $200 a liter until Dec 30th!!! Ordered 3 liters...I almost ordered 5 liters but I just couldn't deal with spending a $1000 on ink at 1 shot, but I will probably order more before the 30th anyway.


That's great that you are going through that much ink!! Make sure any ink that is sitting you shake it vigorously (white ink only) 

Plus, its nice to have fresh filtered and degassed ink every time you switch out a bag.. 

can you take pics of your set-up??


----------



## IYFGraphics

sirslickenstein said:


> I HAVE BEEN CONVERTED! Well I blew thru my second Belquette bag and no problems. I did try and see how far I could go with the end of the first bag and it ran out on my underbase. I have the empty bag as a reminder how far you can go. I can't remember ever seeing the white ink go unto the tee and being shiny wet due to the heavy coating from clear jets! I am NEVER going back to bottles, but now I may have to reduce my underbase settings from medium to a custom to save on ink. I now have a whole liter of bottled white that I won't use. I may try EQ Zone's inks, but I don't want to have to change out 3 bags (smaller) at a time. Each time you change a bag you lose a little ink. I would love to see 5 liter bags, just change once every other month or so.


Welcome to the dark side Bill......glad to have another convert, and another voice to the choir!


----------



## Justin Walker

Sigh.... If only there were bagged ink systems for the 4880 printers!


----------



## bornover

Justin Walker said:


> Sigh.... If only there were bagged ink systems for the 4880 printers!


What do you use on your 4880 based printers Justin? Do you use refillable carts or just prefilled sealed carts, and, what size?


----------



## IYFGraphics

I'd also like to mention that since I have used both systems (Belquette & Equipment Zone) that it is possible to feed all three white channels on our T-Jet with one EZ bag of white ink...

Case in point, as we ran out of Belquette ink during the middle of our last production run I didn't want to remove all three of the Belquette ink lines feeding the printer, I used a pair of hemostats to lightly seal the ink line from the single bag and replaced the connector with one of Equipment Zones fittings, added an EZ bag of white ink, removed the hemostats...wala!

We were back printing in a matter of minuets, no ink loss, no air introduced...yeah smaller bag (220ml vs 500ml) but it does work with no ill effects.

Hope this helps.


----------



## equipmentzone

IYFGraphics said:


> I'd also like to mention that since I have used both systems (Belquette & Equipment Zone) that it is possible to feed all three white channels on our T-Jet with one EZ bag of white ink...
> 
> Case in point, as we ran out of Belquette ink during the middle of our last production run I didn't want to remove all three of the Belquette ink lines feeding the printer, I used a pair of hemostats to lightly seal the ink line from the single bag and replaced the connector with one of Equipment Zones fittings, added an EZ bag of white ink, removed the hemostats...wala!
> 
> We were back printing in a matter of minuets, no ink loss, no air introduced...yeah smaller bag (220ml vs 500ml) but it does work with no ill effects.
> 
> Hope this helps.



Jon,

Our ink bags are now 250ml size. Because our ink line fittings and ink bag fittings on our EZ BAG system are valved there is no ink loss or air introduced when you change out ink bags. We will also have 500 ml ink bags.

Harry
Equipment Zone


----------



## Belquette

equipmentzone said:


> Jon,
> 
> Our ink bags are now 250ml size. Because our ink line fittings on our EZ BAG system are valved there is no ink loss or air introduced when you change out ink bags. We will also have 500 ml ink bags.
> 
> Harry
> Equipment Zone



Its' important that both the bag and printer fittings have check valves. 
500 ml bags have been a standard proven configuration for 2 years now.


----------



## IYFGraphics

Belquette said:


> Its' important that both the bag and printer fittings have check valves.
> 500 ml bags have been a standard proven configuration for 2 years now.


Agreed and both of you guys do that, the only reason I wanted to make the point that you could kinda' mix and match components from each system was because like in the case I cited it kept us going with a minimal of effort and no ill effects, the other consideration is for casual DTG printers that might not go through 500ml a month or so, it gives a option to have less white ink sitting on the printer.

Of course ink sitting on the printer isn't as big of a issue in the bag format as it was with bottles where the ink was constantly exposed to air in the bottle....and I think that 500ml is about the right size for most of us, even though Bill wants liter bags!

JMHO


----------



## equipmentzone

IYFGraphics said:


> Of course ink sitting on the printer isn't as big of a issue in the bag format as it was with bottles where the ink was constantly exposed to air in the bottle....and I think that 500ml is about the right size for most of us, even though Bill wants liter bags!
> 
> JMHO



How would you feel about being able to get white ink in liter size bags?


Harry
Equipment Zone


----------



## IYFGraphics

equipmentzone said:


> How would you feel about being able to get white ink in liter size bags?


Personally, I'm fine with it Harry although with all the other bags on the shelf I might have to get a little creative on where to put it, but doing a long run like the order we had in October that wound up being 150 dark shirts (300 prints) after they added to the order twice it would be nice to run the entire production from one bag, not that there is a issue with consistency of the underbase when you change bags because there wasn't for us, but merely not having to mess with it while doing other operations. 

For the folks that run production every day I'd think it would be an added bonus having that much ink on the printer.

So that would bring up the question, with your 500ml or 1000ml bag you would be feeding all three channels on the printer from one bag? correct?


----------



## sirslickenstein

Liter bags would be great! I am ready to buy 5 liters at a time...if the discount is there.


----------



## JeridHill

Liter bags, though ideal, don't seem to work as well. I think it has to do with gravity and pressure.


----------



## FatKat Printz

JeridHill said:


> Liter bags, though ideal, don't seem to work as well. I think it has to do with gravity and pressure.


Otherwise..I think it would have been done already


----------



## JeridHill

FatKat Printz said:


> Otherwise..I think it would have been done already


Oh it's been done, , We had the 1 liter bags available, we just don't recommend it.


----------



## equipmentzone

sirslickenstein said:


> Liter bags would be great! I am ready to buy 5 liters at a time...if the discount is there.




Bill, 

I'll be in touch.

Harry
Equipment Zone


----------



## TahoeTomahawk

JeridHill said:


> Liter bags, though ideal, don't seem to work as well. I think it has to do with gravity and pressure.


Agreed, the smaller sized bags seems easier to find the correct level for your working environment.


----------



## TahoeTomahawk

JeridHill said:


> Oh it's been done, , We had the 1 liter bags available, we just don't recommend it.


Yup, we had them for awhile. They work, you're just constantly adjusting the levels and propping up the colored bags higher than the white.


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## sirslickenstein

Well if that's the case then I will stick with the half liter bags. I put it just lower than the level of the CMYK bottles and it works perfect. I tried to raise it and I had ink dripping from the print head.


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## FatKat Printz

sirslickenstein said:


> Well if that's the case then I will stick with the half liter bags. I put it just lower than the level of the CMYK bottles and it works perfect. I tried to raise it and I had ink dripping from the print head.


What are you using to lay your bags on?.. I know Adam and I are using lab jacks and they work wonders


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## sirslickenstein

just a box


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## IYFGraphics

FatKat Printz said:


> What are you using to lay your bags on?.. I know Adam and I are using lab jacks and they work wonders


Carla (or Jerid) wouldn't the combination of two lab jacks or something similar work (if you had the room) to keep the CMYK on one jack and a liter bag of white on the other so both could be adjusted independently to compensate for the difference in pressure from the different size bags?

Just askin'


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## JeridHill

I imagine it would work at first, but when the volume of ink starts to drop and the size of the bag starts to thin out, you would still have to make an adjustment on the white. So you are back to fidgeting with it. This is one reason we simply don't recommend it. I have an instructional video on using the 500ml white bags....

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLq27iOW0R0[/media]


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## FatKat Printz

IYFGraphics said:


> Carla (or Jerid) wouldn't the combination of two lab jacks or something similar work (if you had the room) to keep the CMYK on one jack and a liter bag of white on the other so both could be adjusted independently to compensate for the difference in pressure from the different size bags?
> 
> Just askin'


Its more than just a lab jack.. we have a piece of scrap metal perfectly measured for the bags. I know its a little big but we wanted to have enough room. The white bag is in the perfect spot. 

So having 2 lab jacks I think mine is 8x8 its not enough room by itself and with them being $40+ already its not worth it. 


look at the red bag its elevated at a slight angle we do this with the white bag too


Adam- whats your set-up look like now??


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## IYFGraphics

LOL!...thanks Jerid, I get it, "Set It And Forget It!"

What could be simpler....


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## IYFGraphics

Funny how things happen.....

The post the other day by Wholesaleprint about printing on a Carthart jacket struck me because we had done the same type of printing last year for a company.

http://www.t-shirtforums.com/direct-garment-dtg-inkjet-printing/t137805.html

But I get home last night and the wife says we have to print another for the company for them to give as a Christmas gift to one of their clients.

So here's the pics of the finished product.

[media]http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn196/dragtopia/tinsleyjacket1.jpg[/media][media]http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn196/dragtopia/tinsleyjacket3.jpg[/media][media]http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn196/dragtopia/tinsleyjacket2.jpg[/media]The reason for posting this here is the comment I made the other day about running our T-Jet2 with one EZ white bag (220ml) feeding all three channels, as you can see by the pictures the white is nice and bright and had very good coverage, it was printed with 2 passes of white @ 1440 because of the type of fabric being printed, these pictures were taken after the jacket was cured in the heat press not straight off the printer....the print isn't overly thick because of the two passes and I probably could have gotten by with only one pass....but it was an expensive jacket and I didn't want to take any chances.

The only issue doing this kind of garment with a T-2 is where to stuff all the excess, I learned last year doing them that I could stuff the hood in the top of the shirtboard, and the sleeves, front of the jacket in the sides of the shirtboard and let the rest of the garment hang out the bottom of the shirtboard, slide it all in the drawer, reach in the top of the printer between the rails and make sure the excess is below the print head....anyway it like stuffing 10 pounds of stuff in a 5 pound bag but it is doable.

Hope this helps.


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## FatKat Printz

those look great.. 

did you pretreat like normal or did you do a heavier spray? 

Normal curing ?? just added an extra minute?


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## IYFGraphics

FatKat Printz said:


> those look great..
> 
> did you pretreat like normal or did you do a heavier spray?
> 
> Normal curing ?? just added an extra minute?


Carla,

Sprayed the heck out of it with the dark pretreatment, because of the fabric it absorbed the pretreat like a wick, which is why I gave it two passes of white, after the first pass of white covered good I thought I might have made a mistake and was going to put down too much ink, but it was fine, and in reality I think it would have been fine with just normal procedures like any shirt. (which is what I think I did last year but couldn't remember...gettin' old...lol!)

Like I said the jackets are damn expensive and if I messed it up I couldn't even wear it myself because of the bad print.

Cure time was @330 degrees for 190 sec covered with teflon sheet, very light pressure, I did after the press opened remove the cover sheet and hovered another 40-60 sec just for safety sake....LOL! 

Hope this helps.


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## equipmentzone1

Hi Jon,

Just curious -- what material were the jackets made out of?

-Alex


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## IYFGraphics

equipmentzone1 said:


> Hi Jon,
> 
> Just curious -- what material were the jackets made out of?
> 
> -Alex


Hi Alex,

The last Jacket we printed is a Dunbrooke EZ Port (Carthart knockoff) the outer shell is 100% brushed cotton canvas, the rest of the jacket is nylon/poly mix. 

Hope this helps.

Merry Christmas


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## sirslickenstein

Well I am onto my 3rd Belquette bag of white ink. I let my TJET2 sit for 2 weeks with the cleaning fluid carts in and set to clean every 96 hours. When I got back they were empty. I ran a few cleans with ink and the white was clogged. Did the usual routine of cleaning and still bad on the white. I then noticed how much separation was in the bag and I shook it real well. After that, back to cranking out the white ink. I bought more of the Belquette white bagged since it was on sale until the 30th of Dec. Bagged is the way!


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## IYFGraphics

sirslickenstein said:


> I then noticed how much separation was in the bag and I shook it real well. After that, back to cranking out the white ink. I bought more of the Belquette white bagged since it was on sale until the 30th of Dec. Bagged is the way!


Yeah even though it takes longer for the separation to start it does still happen, great thing about the bags is just shake them up and your good to go, no air introduced into the ink like the bottled stuff.

JMHO but you probably didn't have to do the automated head cleans, after you flushed the print head you pretty well did what needed to be done to let the printer sit for an extended period of time, the risk of unattended automated head cleans is like you found out the carts run dry and your dry firing the print head which could cause a failure from over heating.

Hope this helps.


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## equipmentzone1

IYFGraphics said:


> Friday I received the shelf for the T-Jet2 from Equipment Zone (thanks Harry), it's well thought out, uses the old mount to the printer that hangs on the side with the height ruler so you can easily set the shelf height. The top of the shelf measures 13" x 13" and has ample area for all the bags and a nice scalloped piece of metal that acts as a bag stop and has clearance for the lines to feed to the ink chain. The shelf has a built in slope to the printer so adding something to prop the bags up isn't necessary.


Hi,

We posted an installation video for the EZ Pro Bag Ink System on YouTube.

YouTube - EZ Pro Bag Ink System for Fast T-Jet 2 Direct-to-Garment Printers Installation

-Alex


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## jester17

when will your bag system be available and do you have a connector to run 3 whites with one bag


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## jester17

how much i dont see it on your online store i have ez bulk pro now


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## equipmentzone

jester17 said:


> when will your bag system be available and do you have a connector to run 3 whites with one bag



Our bag ink system is now available. We do have a connector to run 3 white lines from one white ink bag.

Harry
Equipment Zone


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## OLUWATU

Hi, first thank you for all your teaching, I'm french and I started in the DTG I bought a printer in China based on an Epson 4880 I read with great interest your post especially the process of degassed ink:
In your opinion what is the best ink system for me and how adapted to my printer.
Another question: I am looking for blank t shirt can you point me to a wholesaler in the U.S..
Best regards and thank you to America still ahead for byzness


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## blackcrest

Argh I'm so jealous of you americans with your bagged inks! I'm based in Asia and have crazy problem with white ink. The problem is so bad that I decided to print white shirts and light coloured shirts only  I have been reading the whole thread (took 45 minutes, seriously). I just wandering if bagging my ink on my own will solve this problem... without filtering it and degassing it. Well I might be able to do filtering, but have no technical expertise in degassing. Anybody have any tips for DIY ink bagging (if that even possible)? Or maybe equipment zone and belquette export to asia?


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## spiderx1

IMHO a large portion of the bagged ink benefits can be obtained by just having the ink in an airtight collapseable bag laying flat on it's side. This minimizes viscosity changes due to evaporation and changes in head pressure as ink levels change. You can even use a syringe to suck out excess air. Thru lines and dampers and the bag. If you want to filter look for something in the 10 micron level. 
No doubt degassing also would be better. The above does help.


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## equipmentzone

blackcrest said:


> Argh I'm so jealous of you americans with your bagged inks! I'm based in Asia and have crazy problem with white ink. The problem is so bad that I decided to print white shirts and light coloured shirts only  I have been reading the whole thread (took 45 minutes, seriously). I just wandering if bagging my ink on my own will solve this problem... without filtering it and degassing it. Well I might be able to do filtering, but have no technical expertise in degassing. Anybody have any tips for DIY ink bagging (if that even possible)?





Degassing the ink takes expertise and equipment. It is not an easy process. It took a substantial investment in time and money to achieve the right results. 


Harry
Equipment Zone


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## JeridHill

equipmentzone said:


> Degassing the ink takes expertise and equipment. It is not an easy process. It took a substantial investment in time and money to achieve the right results.
> 
> 
> Harry
> Equipment Zone


Harry, if I'm not mistaken, you have your inks degassed by a third party, is that correct? If so, isn't this statement a little misleading? Belquette does their degassing in-house and have been doing so since the introduction of the PrintsRite ink system. We discovered that it's critical for the proper ink flow and jetting of the heads and now we wouldn't do it any other way. And you are right, it took a lot of time, money and research to get it right.


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## equipmentzone

JeridHill said:


> Harry, if I'm not mistaken, you have your inks degassed by a third party, is that correct? If so, isn't this statement a little misleading? Belquette does their degassing in-house and have been doing so since the introduction of the PrintsRite ink system. We discovered that it's critical for the proper ink flow and jetting of the heads and now we wouldn't do it any other way. And you are right, it took a lot of time, money and research to get it right.



Jerid,

You are very much mistaken. Since you are a competitor, I do not believe you should be making statements about other companies that you have no knowledge of. We degass and bag our inks inhouse. 

Harry
Equipment Zone


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## JeridHill

equipmentzone said:


> Jerid,
> 
> You are very much mistaken. Since you are a competitor, I do not believe you should be making statements about other companies that you have no knowledge of. We degass and bag our inks inhouse.
> 
> Harry
> Equipment Zone


Not starting a controversy with you, but I know the company that has been degassing your inks all along. Unless you have recently began degassing them in-house, you are still making a false statement. It doesn't matter if I'm a competitor or not, if I see something that is misleading, I'll call it out. We are here to help people, not deceive.

I know a company that you falsely claimed you used DuPont ink and it wasn't. They lost several thousands of dollars on the order because you sold a different brand of pretreat with dupont white and the different brand of colors. Later you confessed. Should I go on? I don't expose things, but when I'm called out as being a "competitor" not knowing what I'm talking about, I would watch what you say. You burned me in the distant past. You probably don't even remember that, but I do. I haven't spoke publicly of it ever, but should I?


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## equipmentzone

JeridHill said:


> Not starting a controversy with you, but I know the company that has been degassing your inks all along. Unless you have recently began degassing them in-house, you are still making a false statement. It doesn't matter if I'm a competitor or not, if I see something that is misleading, I'll call it out. We are here to help people, not deceive.



We have been degassing and bagging our ink inhouse for quite some time now. Period. You are a competitor and I do not appreciate you spreading false statements - which you are doing. I do not expect to keep you informed of how we do things at our company any more then I expect you to keep me informed of how you do things at your company. You do not know so please stop claiming you do. I can understand that you do not like competition but fight it out in the marketplace, not by spreading falsehoods. I hope this is the final word on this.

Harry
Equipment Zone


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## Rodney

Closing out this thread. If you guys want to talk out the details, please pick up a phone or drop each other an email


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