# If you had the money: which DTG printer would you buy?



## vapor77

Ok everyone, if you were a new startup and had under $20k to spend on a printer today, which one would you buy that has white capability, and without print speed being a motivating factor?
I am looking for reliability, versatility, and overall print quality, new or used. As a startup, I'm not worried about print speed for the time being, quality has to come first.
Your opinions are greatly appreciated.


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## coach9

*Re: If you had the money*

I'm going w/the direct advantage from sawgrass .


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## Rodney

Probably the DTG Kiosk


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## Vtec44

T3 or save another 5k and buy a Tjet Blazer  Since I didn't have the money, I settled for a T2.


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## DAGuide

Do you have to print white right away or a white-ready printer okay?

I only ask this because the Sawgrass Direct Advantage has the ability to print white, but the white ink is still being tested. Rumor is that Sawgrass has sometype of different pretreatment concept that is going to make it easier to apply than the current method. I like some of the things that Sawgrass did to this machine to hide some of the potential problems that stop the printing process. Since it is based on a 4800 printer, you could probably use the inks from some of the other machines, but you would probably not have the technical support. This machine is selling for $15,000 I believe.

If you can't wait for the white ink, then below is the list of printers that I know that are now printing white. Don't quote me on the price or the printer model because I am going off my memory. Verify everything with the manufacturer!
- DTG Kiosk - based on 2200 printer and cost around $13,000 - $14,000
- DTG HM1 - this will be available in 8 weeks, based on 2400 printer. Rumor is that the price will be somewhere between $15,000 - $18,000.
- T-Jet 2 - based on 2200 printer and cost about $14,000
- T-Jet 3 - based on an R1800 printer and cost about $15,000 (but double check this price)
- Flexi-Jet - based on 4800 printer and cost about $17,000-$18,000
- Anajet - based on R1800 printer, no clue what this cost is.

Stating all of this this, I would narrow it down to the two DTG printers, T-Jet 3 or Flexi-Jet. The Flexi-Jet has the largest printable area and is better setup to do non-garment pieces because of how the items can extend beyond the printer. I have heard that the HM1 actually prints faster than the Flexi-Jet because the size of the printer is smaller and the print head does not have to come back to the docking part everytime like the 4800 printer does. The HM1 also looks like you can put oversized items in it as the print head moves (instead of the item) like the Flexi-Jet. The Kiosk is pretty attractive because of the price as well.

Hope this helps!


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## vlcnmstr

inspite of lacadasical sales clerks, I would probably go to the kiosk as for you 20k you could probably talk them into two machines .....


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## zhenjie

For me it would be a toss up between the DTG HM1 and Flexi. The HM1 on paper sounds to have the best white ink management system. The Kiosk already has a very nice bulk ink system so I have confidence in DTG.

The Flexi is still a stand-out for me. Large print area, speed and print quality. Also its got fairly good feedback from current owners.


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## birdofparadise1

I am seriously considering the Brother machine, but heard nothing about it from this discussion. Does anyone have input regarding the Brother? Thanks.


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## zhenjie

birdofparadise1 said:


> I am seriously considering the Brother machine, but heard nothing about it from this discussion. Does anyone have input regarding the Brother? Thanks.


No doubt the brother machine is very well built. One of the few that were built ground up just for textiles/t-shirts and not Epson hacked printers. But one of the criterias for the OP was "versatility" which I would think is the ability to print on white, colored and black t-shirts. The Brother unfortunately doesn't print white ink.


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## snarley

Quyen

I saw the Brothers GT-541 Garment Printer at the Long Beach ISS show. I thought it was the best one there for a couple of reasons.

1. They designed the print head specifically for the the printer, not adapting an existing epson one.

2. They have developed their own water based inks for this printer.

3. It's a big business that won't disappear

Disadvantages

1. Expensive, over 20 grand

2. At present it will not print on dark colors (no white ink) They said they were working on that now.

I think this technology is still to new and all the quirks haven't been worked out yet. For now I'm using heat transfers with a soft hand for those jobs I can't screen print because of small runs or specific photo quality required. Give it a year or two and it should be vastly improved.

Bill M


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## csquared

I would buy a refurb T-jet2 or go to an ISS show and pick up a deal on a tjet-3 and spend some of the extra money on the t-jet auto pretreatment machine. Trust me on the auto pretreatment machine when I say it would make your life sooo much easier printing on darks.

but like I said above if I was to get a machine I would want to see it print first so going to a show would be a great way to see all the machines at once AND most all of the machines have special deals if you buy at the show(you can save thousands and get free accessories) so no matter what machine you get I would pick one up at a show.


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## vapor77

That's a lot of different opinions, thank you all for posting.It would have been easier if you all had said the same thing. LOL . I think I've narrowed it down to DTG and T-jet for a couple reasons, price being the biggest. But, should I wait a bit longer and see what new machines are coming out in the next little while?


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## TJLewis

Recently been looking at the DTG machines and they look great. They have new machines out here in the UK, which are very fast, but they are keen to sell the older version, which still seems adequate.
My main concern speaking to Brother and T-jet suppliers was the lack of an ink agitator to keep the lines/nozzles clear. The DTG machines have them but Brother said I would have to manually shake the white inks! Not sure about T-Jet

Justin


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## DAGuide

Justin,

The rumors are that Brother is beta testing white ink but it will not be ready for around a year. In your post, it sounds like you have seen the Brother printer with white ink. Is this correct? In the U.S., they have not released information about this and I don't know any of the beta testers. If you have seen it in action, I would be interested to hear your thoughts on it. Looking for how this machines differs from the current one.


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## TJLewis

I will look at the info. they gave me. To be honest it seemed to print really well onto white shirts (that they were demonstrating) very fast.
I lost interest very quickly when the sales guy said "As long as you don't mind shaking the white ink every now and then it should be fine" ! eek.

Justin


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## Twisted T

I would buy the Kornit 931D, why becasue that machine was built from the ground up to do what it's suppose to do, not transform a desktop printer into a shirt printer. And Speed and step procedures "2" print, dry.


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## thinkworksdan

I've had my Mimaki GP604D for almost a year now, very happy with the machine, has some real advantages over the other offerings on the market, however, it does not print w/ white ink. I will say that the examples of printed white ink I have seen look REALLY BAD. I have a friend who runs a tjet jumbo, he says the white looks okay only if you print white twice, which he says is unacceptably slow. so they just print once and don't let the client see the double-printed option. I think that there are a number of reasons for this, probably better discussed on another thread...

Dan


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## csquared

If he has the Jumbo and not the jumbo2 that could be the reason... One pass of white is excellent on the jumbo2 and tjet2-3 Here are some whites done with one pass on the tjet2
http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j198/suprman007/DSC02160.jpg
http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j198/suprman007/DSC02163.jpg
http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j198/suprman007/DSC02164.jpg
This one has flash on
http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j198/suprman007/DSC02156.jpg
http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j198/suprman007/DSC02155.jpg


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## thinkworksdan

WOW - that's very impressive, haven't seen anything resembling that kind of output before. is there any chance you have a good relationship with a tech? He's got a problem with the white printhead that he can't seem to work out, and is having a heck of a time getting someone to help him...

thanks,
Dan


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## Solmu

csquared said:


> Here are some


Those samples are _far_ better than most of the DTG samples I've been seeing (possibly partly due to the fact that I haven't been actively looking). The technology is obviously coming along rapidly (as you'd expect).


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## Vtec44

csquared said:


> If he has the Jumbo and not the jumbo2 that could be the reason... One pass of white is excellent on the jumbo2 and tjet2-3 Here are some whites done with one pass on the tjet2
> http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j198/suprman007/DSC02160.jpg
> http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j198/suprman007/DSC02163.jpg
> http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j198/suprman007/DSC02164.jpg
> This one has flash on
> http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j198/suprman007/DSC02156.jpg
> http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j198/suprman007/DSC02155.jpg


I'm VERY close to the quality too, but I haven't had the chance to tweak it more. It's always surprise me that people are doing multiple passes on the underbase @ high resolution. For me, 1 pass at 720dpi puts A LOT of white ink down, and I have to reduce it to prevent smearing. 

Thanks for posting, now I know how what to aim for!


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## csquared

I have had some of the techs help me. I would tell your friend to contact Johnathan he has helped me a lot.


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## Macjaney

If I had unlimited money -I'd probably buy a Kornit because they seem to be very reliable, sturdy and do dark shirts but we have a t-jet 2 and it's a great little printer. The quality of our shirts is good. we're just new so we don't have a lot of sample shirts but we've printed on whites, darks and black and the prints are all good. There is some trial and error involved and you need to understand the software. It isn't plug and play but the shirts are fabulous. And as for shaking the white.....it takes 30 seconds a day - it's not a big whoop. You just make it part of your daily maintenance and you do it without thinking. One of the biggest things about these printers is that you have to look after them and get to know them really well and then they do a good job for you.


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## GBengraver

I'm with you Dan,
I bought my Mimaki 604 in January and love it.
One of the features I like that none of the other brands have that I am aware of it the auto sensing of the table surface. No guessing at the proper closeness of table to print head. Great feature.
Machine is built for production even though it does not print white.


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## DannyG517

Hello, All. I'm a regular user of a Direct Advantage (Sawgrass) printer and am sorry to say that I'm more than disturbed with the quality of printer's the color management system. The lone customer rep is an absolute sweetheart, however, when it comes to the Direct Advantage printer, she really hasn't been able to provide us with answers to our main problems. The greatest problem that one will notice is that the colors that this printer produces are flat. Images look worn from the instant that they're printed. Have you visited a Sawgrass booth at a show? Notice that their sample prints have little or no red in them? That's because Sawgrass hasn't been able to formulate an ink that will produce acceptable hues of red yet. I was told that there's a standing joke within Sawgrass in reference to the problem, yet they're still out there pushing their product at the shows. I've printed dozens of shirts and have not been able to squeeze a single acceptable red print out of the printer to date. There are also inherent problems within the software which have yet to be addressed or fixed. The biggest problem is that if you send a graphic to the print que for multiple prints, you cannot count on the software to print all of the images on the targeted are of the shirts. You must manually reload the image file from the computer before each print! Want to do small kid's shirts? Forget it. The platen is to large. One must stretch small shirts to extremes to make them fit. This really compromises the integrity of the image AND allows ink to permeate the garment and stain the platen. I've been given "work arounds" for multiple problems, but for this kind of money you'd think that I should be able to produce garments with vibrant color-correct images. Not! White ink? Hmmm...I've been told that they are not sure just when the ink will be ready. You see...they're still TESTING the white ink while I'M TESTING their color inks. I don't know how they're coming along with their white, but their color have failed. 

Prior to using the DA garment printer, I farmed out my print jobs to a supplier who uses a T-Jet printer. Unfortunately, I've received too many complaints from past clients who have told me that the images on their shirts faded drastically within a couple of months. I have a "gut feeling" that I should have waited a few more years before venturing into direct to garment printing. There are far too many cons to justify either leasing or purchasing the DA printer.


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## amv101

Stay away from Tjet or any of those US Screen machines. Support sucks and so does the equipment. Nothing but issues and inconsistant results. I would look into one of the more pro machines, not some hacked machine like the Tjet. I will buy a different machine next time myself.


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## akaratemom

I have a Brother and LOVE it! I believe it is the best machine. Faster, brighter. No, it doesn't print on dark colors - but it looks great!


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## coach9

Danny, I to have the D-Avantage I get a good red in corel draw by coloring w/the red in the lower right hand corner of the red color box, If u PM me we can talk about some of the other issue and how I've solved them I dont type fast I'd rather talk


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## Lbloves24

What is that? I am now looking at the flexi jet.


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## csquared

my thoughts on the T-jet differ from amv101 as I have had great success and little problems (nothing tech support couldn't help with) with my T-jet and have long since paid mine off with my profits...


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## amv101

Well I am sure there may be some users that have had success. But that has nothing to do with my machine or the support me and my partner get. There is a big difference between maintenence that is part of standard operation and maintenence that is required because the machine is hacked. Honestly I have learned how to use the machine a month after we bought it. But we are still figuring out the problems that simply have to do with a product that is still undergoing lots of R&D.

A good example is, when we first got our machine, we noticed the big shiny T-JET logo that is attached to the front was way crooked. Now I dont know about you, but $18k for something that has a crooked logo is kind of scary. The first thing that came to mind mind is if they cant see something that simple, plain in view, then what else is crooked or not right, especially things we cant see.

Another is the bed height stickers that tell you where your platen should be, are way off... almost a whole inch. They place two stickers on both sides of the TJet so you can have a visual of where the platen should rest, so it doesnt touch the print head. Well not only were the stickers off an inch, they werent even at the same height. One sticker is about 1/4" off the other. I had to bust out my calipers and find my own height... that took a good 2 days or so to figure out.

Now if they cant even get stickers right and level a huge logo, than it kind of makes you wonder what else has been overlooked. 

Those are just some minor issues. Again maybe your was perfect and your support is great, but I am still waiting for two replies and my partner is working on his own issues and havent got a reply yet either.

Just my 2 cents.


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## csquared

I didn't mean to offend you with my comments but I did not think or imply that your experience has anything to do with mine. Again sorry you are having a rough time with yours. I have been successfully printing with mine for a year and have helped setup two t-jet3s for friends so if you have any questions I might be able to help.


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## Macjaney

I agree with C squared. We have a T-jet and we love it. Tech has helped us out with questions more than once and as I said earlier, you have to know the machine and look after it and it looks after you.


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## Macjaney

There are stickers to tell you where to put the platen?? Ours has a ;aser. Was yours a red one?


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## T-JET-SLAVE

I own a T-JET 2 and it has been nothing but trouble for me. I often hear T-JET "fans" say it's "user error" but I find that a lousy excuse for a product that is not capable of printing consistent retail ready t-shirts. I also find most of the people who do support the T-JET and say it's the greatest are somehow affiliated with U.S. Screenprinters. The only positive thing I can say about the T-JET is the technical support. The young professionals they hire are very friendly and willing to help, but that alone, is not enough to fix a printer that was not engineered for commercial use.

As I've said before in my other forums, the T-JET 2 will work fine if you are using this as a hobby printer but don't expect to print "t-shirts for fun and profit" with this thing. With all the maintenance required to get the T-JET functioning properly, you are better without it.

Unfortunately, I signed a five year lease and have become a T-JET slave. What this means is that, every month, I try to print enough shirts to break-even, but not too many where it will require expensive time and cost maintenance... and I start to lose money.

I have not tried the other DTGs out there... I'd like to know if there is anything better.


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## DannyG517

To date, most who I have actually spoken with have expressed that the T-Jet does require a significant amount of maintenance. I think that anyone who expects to operate any piece of equipment such as a DTG printer should expect to have to perform regular preventative maintenance unless you want to have to deal with tougher mechanical problems later. I do agree that using a consumer model EPSON printer as the heart of some of these printers was probably not the best idea. The parts of the EPSON printer are not manufactured to withstand the kind of commercial useage that most t-shirt printers need to print in order to simply break even in their lease plans. I use a Direct Advantage (Sawgrass) printer and although I've received hours of customer support from Sawgrass, I've yet to produce an acceptable color palette (see earlier post). To answer the last question posed, if I had it to do over again I'd definitely given STRONG consideration to acquiring the Brother DTG printer, instead. More likely than not, I'd wait at least another couple of years before committing to a lease again, though. With Colorado Timberline providing exceptional and very affordable DTG printing services, I'd recommend sending them your orders until someone else produces a printer and affordable inks that can actually produce a product that you can sell with complete confidence.


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## KILLER

the Brother machine all the way .....


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## csquared

This topic has really strayed from its original question.


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## coach9

The original ? was under $20,000 and white capable.That eliminates the Brother.I say Direct Advantage or Flexi. I went with D/A thinking they may be the ones to solve the White ink puzzle.


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## csquared

coach have you received any prints from D/A, I would love to see some pictures as I have not heard much on this machine.


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## coach9

When I say D/A it means Direct Adavantage from Sawgrass.


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## csquared

yes I know


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## DannyG517

Coach, have you had any luck getting an answer from Sawgrass in regard as to when the white ink dilemma will be solved? The CR has old us that she has no idea when the ink will be ready for "testing". If they have the same problem with white ink that they're having with producing vibrant reds and their software, it could be quite a while before they get their act together with white ink printing.


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## PinkFreud

I have 3 T-jets and they all work fine....I got my first one over 2 years ago and it still works perfectly...I am not associated with USSPI nor am I some kind of technical genius...however I do use logic, patience and instinct...I think that some people will be unable or unwilling to grasp the process of digital garrment printing regardless of which brand printer they use....The T-Jet has been around significantly longer and has by far sold more machines then other brands so you are more likely to hear from unsuccessful T-Jet owners....I am not looking to piss anyone off but lets face it most of these machines are basically modified ink jet printers using fabric friendly ink...It is not screen printing and it is a mistake to use
a screen printing business model for these machines as they thrive best at producing short runs and 1-offs....my machines serve me well and are running everyday making me money....I have learned to recognize certain inherent problems with digitally printing on garments....the technology is improving all the time...and believe me when I tell you I am not the only one out there making mega-profits fulfilling the very lucrative "short-run, full-color" niche...Good luck


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## ChameleonPrints

I have a T-jet2 that I have had for over 2 years. Also i am not associated with USSPI or any of their dealers and I am not some T-jet Fan that blindly supports them just because I bought one of their machines. There have been bumps along the road over the last 2 years or so but USSPI has always made it right. You can't say that for every business you are going to deal with in this business.


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## coach9

DannyG517 said:


> Coach, have you had any luck getting an answer from Sawgrass in regard as to when the white ink dilemma will be solved? The CR has old us that she has no idea when the ink will be ready for "testing". If they have the same problem with white ink that they're having with producing vibrant reds and their software, it could be quite a while before they get their act together with white ink printing.


Danny,I did from someone in the industry that they are beta testing white.I get some really good reds,I think if U send me art work I'll send U back a sample to compare to yours.I think it would be good to here from more saw grass users to we could help one another out.


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## amv101

Like I mentioned before, I am sure they are PERFECT Tjets and Tjets users out there, which has nothing to do with my problems. People assume that its always user error and seem to defend themselves and their products. Being an industry still in heavy R&D, there are bound to be some issues. I can show you PERFECT prints we have gotten from out Tjet so I know its capable. Our particular machine seemed to have been rushed out, hence the clear visual F ups.

As an update, our Tjets mainboard went out, they sent us a new one, installed it to find now the printhead didnt work. Which worked fine before. After 3 months, we have a bad mainboard. It took me 2 weeks to get a password to the support forum and now we are waiting for a full replacement.

I would call that an unsuccessful Tjet, not an unsuccessful Tjet owner lol....

I posted some samples we made from our Tjet on the US Screen gallery and they are better quality than almost any of the others, so I DO know how to use it.... which has nothing to do with crooked height stickers, and uneven bed and a mainboard going out.... you must be in "Tjet heaven" ... sign me up!


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## ChameleonPrints

amv101, you came on here saying the T-jet sucks and the support for it sucks. Others came on to express their different views... that is all. No one is saying your T-jet problems are your fault or anything like that. I am confused about your statement that support sucks when in your last post you say they have been working with you to fix the problem and now they are getting you a full replacement since they weren't able to fix the issue... so what part of that support sucks? I have bought equipment from other companies that don't want to hear from you at all once they sell you the equipment... and troubleshooting problems, well forget about it unless you want to pay them $75/hr for their "support". As I said in my first post, USSPI support has always made things right with every issue I have had with their machine.


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## fdsales

If I had a choice, I would NOT purchase any DTG printer right now. I think the industry is still too young, and too many problems. We sending back our TJet 3 for the 2nd time to swap for a third new unit. This is CRAZY. We have yet to sell any shirts, and now I cannot trust that any unit by any mfg will work in the long haul.


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## printchic

fdsales said:


> If I had a choice, I would NOT purchase any DTG printer right now. I think the industry is still too young, and too many problems. We sending back our TJet 3 for the 2nd time to swap for a third new unit. This is CRAZY. We have yet to sell any shirts, and now I cannot trust that any unit by any mfg will work in the long haul.


Sorry to hear you are having trouble with your t-jet. I had one and sold mine after 11 months of ownership for the same reason i spend more time on solving issues than printing. You can't be profitable that way.

Anyway, don't be turned off by the DTG industry it really depends on the machine you have. When i sold my t-jet i purchased a brother gt-541 a month later and have been printing ever since.

I think people naturally are drawn to the t-jet because of price but soon many find out that all the time/effort involved to run it is more than they imagined.

I originally wanted the brother but opted for the t-jet (due to price). I too found out quickly it was not right for my business model.

With my Brother DTG Printer I don't have many mess ups, I can produce commercial quality items and am very pleased with my decision to sell.

I wish you success with your 3rd printer and hope you will be able to print soon.

Signed,
Printchic


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## fdsales

Yes, I guess most likely the Brother is a better system as, from what I heard, it was designed strictly to be a garment printer, and the TJet is an Epson digitial printer modified to be a garment printer. Also, price was a real consideration, plus the reputation of US Screen. I have to say that their support is really quite good, but then again, it has to be just to stay on top of all of the issues. Hopefully, the third machine will work out.


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## graphicmaster

HI can any please tell me about is the DTG HM1 is Faster or T Jet 3 is faster i'm looking to buy one very soon .

Home


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## csquared

graphicmaster they are about the same speed.


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## graphicmaster

Thank you,

csquared , which printer do you use for your printing


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## csquared

I am running a refurb T-jet2 that has been great for me.


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## thinkworksdan

here's my two cents - I've been following this market for a couple of years, watching several forums, and running a mimaki printer myself. I will say that the only consistently good reports come from those running Brother machines. I'm not knocking my own manufacturer, I just don't think they've sold enough of their own machines at 25 grand to have a consensus. I will say that the tech from mimaki has been great, he helped me replace a printhead (under warranty, at no cost to me) in about an hour over the phone. However, I've found my supplier for inks, Jantex, to be not so hot. On several occasions, I've ordered inks only to receive three of the four inks i've ordered and to be informed on the invoice that the other ink that I need is back ordered. they don't tell me this on the phone. In the last year and a half, I've probably spend close to three weeks waiting for ink. I guess it's not totally awful, but if they would at least let me know on the phone when I'm ordering the inK???

I have some real pluses that I can speak about regarding my printer. However, the support seems excellent for the brother, and I cannot say this about the Mimaki, (sorry, Louie.) I can say that after a year and a half of working with the discharge process in a digital printer that I should have gone with the non-discharge mimaki. My friend that runs a t-jet jumbo has had nothing but issues with his machine, and the tech support has been about what I've heard from others posting in this group. 

perhaps it's a subject for another thread, but I'd love to know more about the RIPs included with printers.. the mimaki is proprietary to the machine (I've been told that the wasatch RIP works with the mimaki, but in color mode only, no discharge support. I can hardly justity spending three grand on software that doesn't fully support my machine.) My biggest single gripe is that you can't save a job out of the rip. my friend with the t-jet informs me that their RIP doesn't have this limitation. anyone have anything to offer on this subject????

thanks,
Dan


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## csquared

the RIP for the t-jet does not have this limitation and comes with the machine at no extra charge.


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## csquared

A reason for the brothers great service record is the fact that it only prints on light shirts, you will find that most all DTG machines set up to only print on lights will have similar results with reliability.


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## sunnydayz

I have the Rip Pro software with my HM1 and I am also able to save all of my print jobs on there for reprinting. It also came with my machine although I had to have someone help me upgrade it (thanks Marc) because the one they gave me did not work with windows vista.

Bobbie


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## Printzilla

On the speed issue..it depends on several factors. I print 720 x 720 one pass. I get that print in less than 45 seconds for a 10 x 12. The tjet 3 owners I have spoken with say that they cannot produce the same speeds.

I would be interested to hear from any other tjet 3 owners as to how long it takes them to produce a 10 x 12 on a white shirt.


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## sunnydayz

Printzilla said:


> On the speed issue..it depends on several factors. I print 720 x 720 one pass. I get that print in less than 45 seconds for a 10 x 12. The tjet 3 owners I have spoken with say that they cannot produce the same speeds.
> 
> I would be interested to hear from any other tjet 3 owners as to how long it takes them to produce a 10 x 12 on a white shirt.


Hey where is Gunslinger, werent you two going to print the same image? I think the HM1 is faster as I seen both print at the long beach show before I bought my HM1. It seems very quick to me. 

Bobbie


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## Printzilla

His machine has been down.


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## sunnydayz

Printzilla said:


> His machine has been down.


Oh thats not good, hopefully he gets it fixed soon. 

Bobbie


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## Printzilla

They are just replacing the head.


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## sunnydayz

Printzilla said:


> They are just replacing the head.


Thats good, well not good but easily fixed at least. I talked to mesa today and tried to get the maintenance software issue straightened out but as yet they still have not figured out how to fix it. They also forgot to install the wiper blade on my capping station so I told them to just mail it to me and I will put it in(with instructions of course hehe) other than that my machine is printing great. I took some pictures but still have to upload them from my camera, I will try to do it tommorow.

Bobbie


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## NicMartel

WOWWWWW ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !! …first, a comment that leads to my questions and concerns:
Please state your answer in the form of a question!!! LOL… 
What to dooooo... some of you are painting a rather gloomy picture, some of you seem to be the great heroes who tend to be self-persuaded.
It is said that examples/pictures speak more than many words... yet in this case, I saw pictures that probably would look good on any equipment... words that spelled disaster or words like("...it has worked for me...") that tended to want to get back at the gloom mongers rather than offer a solid proven solution, backed by data, ...that could simply mean, you are not using the equipment to the extent of having the problems cited... thus a non-answer. But, I am not giving up yet... I am just going @^#(&^#*(@&^%, let the monkeys settle down. The rukus could hide a few jewls; it is just a matter of finding the vein...

QUESTIONS: a few of them, all leading to the last question that is the answer to this topic. I numbered them for ease of reference.

1. Does someone have a truly monitored on-hand experience that demonstrates a successful extended run of solid and satisfactory production, across a variety of imprints that cover a vast range of complexity on a vast variety of garment colors(*INCLUDING DARK* ones), that translated into a nominal profit in terms of the amount of the investment in such DTG equipment, specifically and directly concerning a startup which would mainly rely on DTG as their main source of revenue? [1.5]-In other words is DTG capable of standing on its own, rather than being a complement to the bread and butter proven methods of imprinting? 

2. ...and of course do not forget to show some vivid and true benchmarks when DTG is compared to *HEAT TRANFERS*, in terms of *DURABILITY* and *CUSTOMER SATISFACTION*? 

3. I have yet to really get a good feel for jumping from HEAT TRANSFERS to DTG, if durability and customer satisfaction are essentially comparable. No one so far has stated clearly that DTG equipment is reliable enough to justify the investment and that it indeed produces a better quality to justify it(DTG) over HEAT TRANSFERS. 

4. Are all the Transfer Paper manufacturers overstating their claims that the imprint does not wash off??? ...is that why the confusion?

[*HEAT TRANSFERS*= Well executed ones, not rookie work] [*DURABILITY*=how many months/washes, ‘washfastness’ so to speak] [*CLIENT SATSIFACTION* =do clients come back or do they get burnt and fade away, or do they make comments that the extra cost of a DTG did not justify the improvement in ‘washfastness’]

5. …and to keep my questions in synk with the topic, which DTG Printer, Inks and garment qualtiy were used?


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## howrdstern

that's like asking "are all home contractors the same?" there are so many variables in each process that it is hard to give a direct universal answer. some people have fantastic results with heat transfers, dtg printing, screen print, and the methodologies are not a given for any of the techniques stated. a lot of success has to do with a learning curve- and my method of doing dtg printing may be very different ( i may like a light underbase of white on my darks to give a more worn vintage look than other members here who want a crisp bright vibrant white underbase for their client base) i would suggest going with a business plan and finding a process that fits your clients needs and work from there... because if your looking for high volumes then plastisol may be more of a wiser choice. my dtg machine is a very good investment for my needs but i do high-end limited pieces - if i were doing commercial runs of many hundreds, it would not be even a consideration for me- so variables are a major part of the answer you are looking for... and you can produce very good to high quality products from heat press transfers, vinyl transfers, screen printing, and dtg printing. i personally use a mixture of all and find it a great blend for the creative process.


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## NicMartel

Howrdstern... reading your answer is helpful. I am honing my understanding more each time I get this type write-up... Also I was trying to narrow the context to match the topic and see if there is a benefit for a startup to get a DTG printer(and which one) versus using HEAT TRANSFERs... and I believe you have answered that with your specific example as well as in a general manner when you state that ...very good high quality can be produced with any of the methods... are you saying high quality in an absolute meaning? ...so one who does HEAT TRANSFERs well, can equal a DTG level of quality in respect to WASHFASTNESS/DURABILITY and customer satisfaction? ...or are you saying high quality relative to the process used?

Realize that I am a newbie and I go on the basis of simple blanket statements made to me by others that HEAT TRANSFERs are not really acceptable as they peel away in a few washes... and I am told that the answer to that is DTG which is told to not peel off. If my basis is wrong then my interpretation of answers can be off the mark as well.


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## howrdstern

nic 
to answer the question about the durability of heat transfers - i had some shirts for over 3 years done with regular washings and still hold up very well (including color and no peelings- however, this is for light garments) i had plenty of problems with opaque transfers with cracking ( not very fond of those transfers) vinyl is great - no problems with durability from any vinyl i used with my roland gx-24 cutter- i also sublimate using arTanium inks and that is a great durable soft hand process- but requires 50/50 blends (min) i did sublimate on 100 % cotton and have good results after using pretreatments but need to do more testing to recommend that route. there is also a new no-cut heat transfer paper that i'm testing and leaves no-box around image area-but is for lights not darks and so far real good results (not great) a little loss in color after a few washings ( thats regular temp washings - not cold) i like to test the heck out of my stuff before i sell. hope that helps... i love the soft hand of the dtg - and the fact you can play with the settings to get a whole array of the way images lay down on the garment ( sometimes the mistakes are what make the design even better) but in the same vein - dtg printing can be very easy to get consistent steady results- but the 15,000 grand is a lot of potatoes to shell out for some to use as a creative toy- fortunately for me it's only one of many processes i do - so i'm not just dependent on that machine- but i would purchase all over again. (for sure) and love it as a major option in doing my garments. hope that helps


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## NicMartel

Thank you... that is helpful... I am getting closer to either farm it all out or make my equipment purchase


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## NicMartel

howrdstern... (Thank you.)

You must be talking about the DuraCotton... some say it is the best they have ever used... but it will leave the ghost on all garments, directly visible on the non-white light garments and barely visible on the white ones if you look at it at a certain angle.

The new IronAll for darks may resolve the issue for the dark garments...

What printer will allow me to do sublimation? or does that have to be farmed out? I know the Oki printers especially the 5500 and above produce great results with the DuraCotton.
Does sublimation leave the halo around the picture too?
Does IronAll(not for darks) also leave a halo?
Does sublimation have to be done with a Laser... can it be inkjet? am I even askin the right question?

Now that I am more in touch, I do not think that I will be getting a DTG... I was overly worried about quality i think... many now say the Heat transfer papers have improved so as to give near equal results concerning durability.

I am soon making the decision to farm out or to get the equipment... but, I am still unsure... What printer/press/inks/methods/laser or inkjet/type transfer paper to choose. on a 2K investment. I know the Oki 5500 is on sale.

I will be printing on at least white and black T-Shirts, Caps, Cups, Window/Car Stickers. But I won't buy the Cups and Caps Presses as part of the initial purchase.


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## wafferice

can these machines print on black garments yet? and how good is the quality?


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## jki540

i got a DTG printer because I couldn't find any heat transfer papers that look good on dark shirts. Those opaque transfers look like plastic to me, and to do it right, you need to be awesome at weeding (or have a cutter). And when you start a business, time spent doing production is time you should spend making sales.

to quote so many others when dealing with your topic (aka, Pandora's Box), it ALL DEPENDS ON YOUR BUSINESS MODEL. excuse the all caps, but i feel like this message was pounded into my skull since the day i asked this question too.

but to answer your question more directly, yes. you can absolutely sustain a business with only DTG equipment. CafePress and Zazzle do it, but keep in mind that their business models are fairly extreme. I'm hoping to do it too. I've been printing and testing a fair amount over the past several weeks. My conclusion is that DTG is nowhere close to screen printing in terms of vibrancy and color, but you can get some sweet results from it nonetheless. I also don't think DTG prints are 'worst' than screen prints...I just think they're different. They're more muted. But some customers (that i've spoken with) actuall prefer that muted look.

Hope this helps...just my $0.02.


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## wafferice

Hi, Thanks for your reply. Do you happen to have any pictures of your t-shirts, especially dark garments? Thanks 



jki540 said:


> i got a DTG printer because I couldn't find any heat transfer papers that look good on dark shirts. Those opaque transfers look like plastic to me, and to do it right, you need to be awesome at weeding (or have a cutter). And when you start a business, time spent doing production is time you should spend making sales.
> 
> to quote so many others when dealing with your topic (aka, Pandora's Box), it ALL DEPENDS ON YOUR BUSINESS MODEL. excuse the all caps, but i feel like this message was pounded into my skull since the day i asked this question too.
> 
> but to answer your question more directly, yes. you can absolutely sustain a business with only DTG equipment. CafePress and Zazzle do it, but keep in mind that their business models are fairly extreme. I'm hoping to do it too. I've been printing and testing a fair amount over the past several weeks. My conclusion is that DTG is nowhere close to screen printing in terms of vibrancy and color, but you can get some sweet results from it nonetheless. I also don't think DTG prints are 'worst' than screen prints...I just think they're different. They're more muted. But some customers (that i've spoken with) actuall prefer that muted look.
> 
> Hope this helps...just my $0.02.


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## jki540

I'm not sure if this will work...I'm copy/pasting (not uploading) this image.

This was done on my DTG printer. You can see there's tremendous detail in this image. but the white is not as vibrant as it might be with screenprinting.

but i think it looks nice, and my customer was very satisfied.


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## wafferice

That's pretty good. Thanks for posting the image


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## Gunslinger

sunnydayz said:


> Hey where is Gunslinger, werent you two going to print the same image? I think the HM1 is faster as I seen both print at the long beach show before I bought my HM1. It seems very quick to me.
> 
> Bobbie


Since I have a short break in the madness ...

Yes, I had to order a new print head, and bought some backups (capping station, encoder strip, more white ink) to get back to printing white again. As well as, setting up the new EZ PRO 3 bulk ink system. Unfortunately, the dupont white ink I had in my system needed to be flushed and replaced, as well. Not a happy camper about it all, but fortunately the new bottle of white ink is running nicely (finally, late last night), and I can fill these orders (which are starting pile).

If I ever get some time to go back to the test times, I will, but for now ... the HM-1 prints faster than the T-Jet 3. So, to answer the thread question, for pure speed the HM-1 would be the best choice.


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## NicMartel

Thank you for the post Gunslinger,

Those DTG printers set you back for about 15K... to get your ROI at $15 net profit per Garment, you would have to sell 1000 units... 2000 at $7.50 net profit... ...and that equipment is just not designed for volume... It scares me...
Am i too paranoid? too careful?

1. Are u suffering the pitfalls of the DTGs... I have been reading these printers just are not up to snuff yet... they clog clog clog... and one spends more time idled then in production. Give me your feeling...

2. Are you saying you are going to a new type/brand ink? because the Dupont white ink fails???

3. Are you having to soak your filter in a solution to keep them functional?

4. I wish I could see a DTG sample that has full color
- one of a complex graphic approaching the picture quality for instance
- and one of image/photo quality.

Thou may receive if thou asketh!!! lol


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## Printzilla

NicMartel said:


> ...and that equipment is just not designed for volume... It scares me...


Printed well over 10k shirts with my original tjet, and it was still going strong when I sold it. I think the newer generation are good for at LEAST 50k prints. At just three bucks profit a shirt, that gives me a 1000% return.


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## Gunslinger

Nic,

Well, for our local custom printing, we likely charge higher than other DTG printers might. So far, our ROI has been right on target, and I haven't launched retail online, yet.

1. Yes, I have experienced most of the problems these machines can dish out. Our first T-Jet 3 would not load with a shirt bed on it. Got a quick replacement, and have been printing away ever since. I think I am one of the few who even bother printing with white ink. And despite the temperments of these machines, I would not even consider traditional screen printing ... I would be far more frustrated with the mess, the screens, and seperations ... not to mention the storage.

2. No, I am not going with any other ink (if that is even an option for an epson printhead), but I am hoping Dupont will vastly improve their inks for the DTG industry. Replacing a clogged printhead is expensive, not to mention, an either bad batch of ink, or old one that has settled ... ink isn't cheap, either.

3. Not sure what you are referring to, as far as a "filter," but yes, there are ways to extend the life of a printhead using white ink (preventive daily maintainence, or flushing the printhead when not printing for awhile). Unfortunately, I was so busy with printing light shirts, I assumed gently swirling my inks was enough. But, even still, I either had a bad batch of white ink (which I doubt, since I had succesfully printed that batch of ink, when I was doing dark shirts), or an old batch that was going to settle on me, regardless.

4. I have posted (as many others have) sample pictures of the photographic quality on tees, somewhere on these forums. You should be able to run a search to find examples. When I get a chance, I can make a follow-up post with more pics.


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