# Screen printing but using vinyl instead of emulsion



## Stage2 (Jan 12, 2009)

I was wondering if thi9s is really a cost effective solution and has anyone really tried this? I know youw ould need to invest in a plotter but over time is it worth it?

I'm currently using emulsion and down the road I would need the get a vinyl plotter anyway I guess what I'm looking for is the pro's and cons of actually using vinyl insteadf of emulsion. Some say you clean less but you still need to use ink cleaners if you're using plastisol inks

and my next question is can you use both plastisol and waterbase inks this way?


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## lben (Jun 3, 2008)

Not sure if it's cost effective or not. For a 20"x24" screen you would need 288 square inches of vinyl. The cheapest vinyl will cost you about $4.32 for each screen. It would certainly be easier than emulsion and all the steps involved. I don't think there would be a problem with water based inks (after all the vinyl is washable on fabrics). But I'm thinking it would be kind of expensive. But then considering the time involved in making a screen and the labor involved... hmm I dunno. Now you've got me wondering.


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## mrvixx (Jan 13, 2009)

emulsion works best. vinyl will eventually fall out. may be good for a few pieces


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## Stage2 (Jan 12, 2009)

lben said:


> Not sure if it's cost effective or not. For a 20"x24" screen you would need 288 square inches of vinyl. The cheapest vinyl will cost you about $4.32 for each screen. It would certainly be easier than emulsion and all the steps involved. I don't think there would be a problem with water based inks (after all the vinyl is washable on fabrics). But I'm thinking it would be kind of expensive. But then considering the time involved in making a screen and the labor involved... hmm I dunno. Now you've got me wondering.


Yes thats what I've been wondering too. The only issue i see is the initial cost of a plotter plus the cost of vinyl... really you don't need to vinly the whole screen 20x24 if you design is just like a 6"x6" left chest print the rest of the screen just block out with tape or soomething.

The time it takes to coat a screen, dry, expose, wash and then dry again. Really is it that expensive to instead do it in vinyl? Also factor in the time it takes to wash the emulsion off and the inks off and the cost of not using emulsion and emulsion remover.

And I could probably wash off the ink and quickly reuse the screen faster than the convensional way of emulsion

I've been only using plastisol inks and I'm going to be needing to get a different type of emulsion for waterbase when I get into that but was thinking why not just do it this way and save me the hassle.

How much does a vinyl plotter cost anyway?


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## chartle (Nov 1, 2009)

Here is a thread that should help you out.

Using vinyl to make a screen stencil?


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## chartle (Nov 1, 2009)

lben said:


> Not sure if it's cost effective or not. For a 20"x24" screen you would need 288 square inches of vinyl. The cheapest vinyl will cost you about $4.32 for each screen.


I did a quick calculation and I can buy a 30" x 50 yard roll of Oracal 651 for about $95. If I did my math right I get 52 cents for 288 square inches of vinyl. thats assuming I have no waste and can only cut 29"wide.


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## thutch15 (Sep 8, 2008)

I would not say it is a cost effective, but it would be a great way to practice while learning the tricks of emulsion. I used it for the first year and a half of being in business. Vinyl is very easy to use and seemed to be fast to setup. It will eventually fail, but could easy get 100 prints out of one screen. 

Negatives: No extreme details, can get pretty detailed with good vinyl and time. Pain in the a$$ to clean up.

Positives: Almost zero experience require as apposed to emulsion. Pretty fast setup. Great depth on screen, like 2 layers of emulsion.

Also, best vinyl to use, for me, was 3M 7725 on a clear backing. (prefer clear backing on all vinyl projects, almost zero memory compared to paper backing that tries to roll on itself)

Hope this helps.


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## lben (Jun 3, 2008)

My cutter is a 24 inch one, so I couldn't use the big stuff unless I cut it into bite sized pieces first. But I like that price.


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## Stage2 (Jan 12, 2009)

thutch15 said:


> I would not say it is a cost effective, but it would be a great way to practice while learning the tricks of emulsion. I used it for the first year and a half of being in business. Vinyl is very easy to use and seemed to be fast to setup. It will eventually fail, but could easy get 100 prints out of one screen.
> 
> Negatives: No extreme details, can get pretty detailed with good vinyl and time. Pain in the a$$ to clean up.
> 
> ...


thutch15 thats excellent to know I've invested a bit in my equipment although I'm relatively new I wanted to know the benefits of doing it this way as appose to the 'traditional' method. I'm getting a fair bit of small order requests which I've shyed away from.

When you say fine details aren't plotters capable of cutting the finer details of a drawing so long as its in in vector format.. majority of my work are fine detailed drawings.


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## lben (Jun 3, 2008)

chartle said:


> Here is a thread that should help you out.
> 
> Using vinyl to make a screen stencil?[/quote
> 
> ...


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## Stage2 (Jan 12, 2009)

lben said:


> chartle said:
> 
> 
> > Here is a thread that should help you out.
> ...


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## splathead (Dec 4, 2005)

Here's a video [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXmmXkvh4pI[/media]

Also, this caught my eye today. Anyone use Rhino stencil? http://www.t-shirtforums.com/t-shirt-industry-news/t137988.html


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## TshirtLover929 (Jan 20, 2010)

I have been using cheap vinyl called GreenStar and it has worked good for me. I mostly use it for text and solid images with little detail. I have also used it to screen print plastisol ink transfers. Clean up is pretty easy just peel off the vinyl and tape 1st then pressure wash I use a little ink cleaner. I started with heat transfer and heat press vinyl so I already had a cutter. I also found out it is cheaper to screen print then use heat press vinyl for larger orders.


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## thutch15 (Sep 8, 2008)

Stage2 said:


> lben said:
> 
> 
> > The adhesive residue will come off i think with ink cleaners. I know that i use tape to cover off the edges and if i use press wash the tape and the glue comes off easily! soprobably the samething with vinyl
> ...


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## royster13 (Aug 14, 2007)

24" Black Oracal 651 is 82.08 at Ordway Sign Supply - The Complete Source for Today's SignMaker. 2 rolls gets free shipping....


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## chartle (Nov 1, 2009)

lben said:


> My cutter is a 24 inch one, so I couldn't use the big stuff unless I cut it into bite sized pieces first. But I like that price.


The best part is my supplier is a short walk away from my office. 

If I only need a single roll I just walk.


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## lben (Jun 3, 2008)

royster13 said:


> 24" Black Oracal 651 is 82.08 at Ordway Sign Supply - The Complete Source for Today's SignMaker. 2 rolls gets free shipping....


I just found 24" x 10 yds for $21 at uscutter not sure if that's a good deal or not. I'll have to do more research on this. Thanks for the link.


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## selanac (Jan 8, 2007)

Love the US Cutter Forum. Not as nice as this forum though.


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## lben (Jun 3, 2008)

I didn't know they had a forum. Actually I'd never heard of them before.


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## TshirtLover929 (Jan 20, 2010)

I use the GreenStar Intermediate Calendered Vinyl 15" x 50 Yard Roll at $37.99
I also use a 20X24 Screens and cut my vinyl to 15X16 squares with my design cut in it.
That gives me 112 sheets I can use as emulsion. Thats 34 cents a sheet.
This is the best value I could find for using vinyl instead of emulsion.


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## selanac (Jan 8, 2007)

Yes, the forum's website is: http://forum.Uscutter.com it's free to join. 

Many of the users are members here too.


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## uniwear (Sep 24, 2007)

you are off track buddy the new dry stencil film from rhinotech is the way forward. made by neenah ist the same as their image clip system a two part paper system direct to screen without all the fuss and time consuming emulsions etc. try it out


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## lben (Jun 3, 2008)

uniwear said:


> you are off track buddy the new dry stencil film from rhinotech is the way forward. made by neenah ist the same as their image clip system a two part paper system direct to screen without all the fuss and time consuming emulsions etc. try it out



Is it more expensive than the sign vinyl? And where do I get some if it's less expensive?


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## Red Leaf (Feb 2, 2011)

emulsion emulsion emulsion!


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## Kammies (Dec 16, 2010)

I have been using both and emulsion and vinyl (oracal 651 black). When I do it I have noticed a big difference in results when printing. The plastisol goes on thinner with the emulsion due to the emulision stencil thickness. The Plastisol through the vinyl goes on heavy due to the 2.5mm thickness of the vinyl. So you have a thick heavy feel. I tried using reducer for a softer feel but it still is noticeably different. In my opinion emulsion is better for a lighter ink deposit and a softer feel while vinyl is faster and eaiser to deal with. 

I guess it comes down to what the customer wants right? how do you go about that btw. Do you tell your customers that their design will have a heavier feel to it?

Just my 2 cents.


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## poker (May 27, 2009)

I'm going to try this vinyl method tonight.

I've used the dry stencil and it worked out pretty good.


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## poker (May 27, 2009)

It came out well except that some of the vinyl started to peel off while I was cleaning the screen. I don't know if it was my cleaning motion or the cleaner I used. 

The vinyl will do fine for low detail graphics when you need a stencil fast.


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## thutch15 (Sep 8, 2008)

poker said:


> It came out well except that some of the vinyl started to peel off while I was cleaning the screen. I don't know if it was my cleaning motion or the cleaner I used.
> 
> The vinyl will do fine for low detail graphics when you need a stencil fast.


Don't plan on being able to clean up the job and save the screen for later use. Vinyl will start to peel if pause the job for a day or two or if you use a cleaner.


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## jdoug5170 (Sep 8, 2010)

Kammies said:


> I have been using both and emulsion and vinyl (oracal 651 black). When I do it I have noticed a big difference in results when printing. The plastisol goes on thinner with the emulsion due to the emulision stencil thickness. The Plastisol through the vinyl goes on heavy due to the 2.5mm thickness of the vinyl. So you have a thick heavy feel. I tried using reducer for a softer feel but it still is noticeably different. In my opinion emulsion is better for a lighter ink deposit and a softer feel while vinyl is faster and eaiser to deal with.
> 
> I guess it comes down to what the customer wants right? how do you go about that btw. Do you tell your customers that their design will have a heavier feel to it?
> 
> Just my 2 cents.


Could this not be avoided by putting the vinyl on the ink side?


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## thutch15 (Sep 8, 2008)

jdoug5170 said:


> Could this not be avoided by putting the vinyl on the ink side?



Also they make different thicknesses of vinyl, so it could just be that they used some thick vinyl. 

I always liked 3M 7725 on a clear backing... I felt the clear backing was key.


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## aplusbowling (Dec 6, 2007)

Has anyone ever used vinyl for the positive? Couldn't you cut a design using black vinyl and adhere it to the coated and dried screen and expose? I realize the design couldn't be real detailed, but this should work, shouldn't it? I just might have to try it...


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## splathead (Dec 4, 2005)

aplusbowling said:


> Has anyone ever used vinyl for the positive? Couldn't you cut a design using black vinyl and adhere it to the coated and dried screen and expose? I realize the design couldn't be real detailed, but this should work, shouldn't it? I just might have to try it...


Film is a lot cheaper.


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## aplusbowling (Dec 6, 2007)

Ryonet R-Film 13x18 film is $105 for 100 sheets = $1.05 each (not including the ink used).

GreenStar Intermediate vinyl from USCutter is $11.25 for 15"x10yrd. That works out to be $0.0021 per square inch. So a 15x18 piece of vinyl = $0.57.

Am I missing something? 

I'm not saying this could replace films, but for those larger prints that don't have much detail, isn't this a viable option?


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## Kammies (Dec 16, 2010)

I used black oracal 651 vinyl as a positive last night stuck it on the emulsion then burned the screen came out perfect. Used vinyl because my design as 14.5"x17" and my r-film is 13"x18" and im not too sure on how to print it out on the blackmax 1400 yet. Vinyl was just faster as I deal with alot of it for my signs. 

Just remember not to use a weeding tweezer or a xacto knife to try and take the vinyl off of the screen you might acdentially poke a hole through the screen or cut it. 

I actually used my finger nail to take it off. If you have super short nails you can use a credit card or a lil' chisler.


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## splathead (Dec 4, 2005)

aplusbowling said:


> Ryonet R-Film 13x18 film is $105 for 100 sheets = $1.05 each (not including the ink used).
> 
> GreenStar Intermediate vinyl from USCutter is $11.25 for 15"x10yrd. That works out to be $0.0021 per square inch. So a 15x18 piece of vinyl = $0.57.
> 
> Am I missing something?



1. What's your time worth? When you're done weeding & applying, that 57 cent piece of vinyl has suddenly cost you $10.


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## splathead (Dec 4, 2005)

Kammies said:


> Just remember not to use a weeding tweezer or a xacto knife to try and take the vinyl off of the screen you might acdentially poke a hole through the screen or cut it.


Do you remove the vinyl after washing out the screen? Or does the water pressure cause the vinyl to loosen?


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## Kammies (Dec 16, 2010)

splathead said:


> Do you remove the vinyl after washing out the screen? Or does the water pressure cause the vinyl to loosen?


 
No I remove it before I washout. I do not pressure wash I just use a adjustable nozzle with a garden hose.

LOL funny I never thought about trying to wash it off of the screen, but after thinking about it maybe you're right I might be able to just wash it out. I'll try tonight. I'll let you know.


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## poker (May 27, 2009)

How about sticking the vinyl it to the glass instead? Would that have worked?


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## thutch15 (Sep 8, 2008)

poker said:


> How about sticking the vinyl it to the glass instead? Would that have worked?


Many vinyls you can get on a clear backing, so you would not even have to take it off the backing. Example would be 3M 7725.


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## poker (May 27, 2009)

But maybe sticking it directly to the emulsion avoids needing to vacuum or put high pressure?

Kammies...how detailed was the design?


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## Kammies (Dec 16, 2010)

poker said:


> But maybe sticking it directly to the emulsion avoids needing to vacuum or put high pressure?
> 
> Kammies...how detailed was the design?


I have a open face burner bought the kit from ryonet 6 color 2 station. 

So I cannot vaccuum, the second reason I didnt stick it to glass was because it was eaiser to register on the screen itself, third was I didnt want to hassle with taking the decal off off the glass then cleaning the adhesive off of the glass.

This particular design did not have really fine detail so it was good for me. 

I am at my regular job now, after I finish work and head over to my shop I will take a picture and post it. Screen and shirt. 

Hmmm can I do all of that from my iphone? LOL


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## Kammies (Dec 16, 2010)

thutch15 said:


> Many vinyls you can get on a clear backing, so you would not even have to take it off the backing. Example would be 3M 7725.


 
This is very true but 3M is also alittle more expensive then oracal 651.


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## TwistedLogik (Jul 11, 2010)

Now this is something I never thought of doing  Im gonna have to test this out. Thanks for the new thing learnt today lol


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## jord001 (Sep 20, 2014)

I have only just started printing and have been using avery and oracle vinyl as the stencil while im getting things ready to start using emulsion. Its not great for detailed work but its ok for lettering, bold or straight forward designs. Its ok for 8 - 10 prints at least, i've not done any more than that. Not great when you want to clean up as the solvents for the plastisol removal does tend to make the vinyl peel at the edges. 

Lee


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