# Some questions about embroidering hats



## squeed (Dec 22, 2010)

I've started experimenting with embroidery on hats and I'm having a few problems. See below, any advice would be appreciated.

1. I'm hooping these structured hats in there tight. When the hoop moves forward the top of the hat is being pushed up by the end of the needlebar. This distorts the hat and messes up the design. I can't see any way around this other than making the design smaller. Is this correct?

2. I can not get a stock design to register on a hat no matter what I do, I don't understand what the problem is, it sews out great on a flat shirt but looks like garbage on a hat. What's up?

3. Should I be using tear away backing on a hat?

4. No matter how tight I hoop the hat, when the presser foot comes down on it, it's making the hat indent, it's almost like a "popping" sound as the ridged front material gets pushed down by the presser foot. Is that normal? Should it be "popping". The hat is making the sound, not my machine.

-S


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## redlinecol (Jul 13, 2011)

I dont know much at all about embroidery, but I do know that when doing hats its best to start the embroidery in the middle of the design and work out to the edges....don't know if thats relavent!!


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## Riph (Jan 11, 2011)

I have little success on structured hats. I have concluded that it has to do with how the machine and its cap frame are designed.

Your success will depend quite a bit on the machine you are using and how its cap frame holds the cap.

On my machine, the bill of the cap gets locked into a retainer that holds it at angle that lets it clear the back of the machine, but on most structured caps, the angle is such that it pulls the front of the cap (the part you are sewing on) up and away from the needle plate. Even with the little plastic spacer they provide, there is a big gap. When the presser foot pushes it down, it creates registration problems (and that popping sound). I have basically given up doing structured caps. (BTW, I use a Brother PR1000.) 

(Side Note: the angle on the back of the needle case is created by the auto-threading mechanism. Machines w/o auto threading probably have much more clearance fro the cap bill.)

I've stared at this problem a long time, and tried a lot of ways to hoop the cap, and concluded that basically, structured caps and my machine will never coexist. Unstructured work great, luckily.

I have looked at other machines, and I see a couple that don't use the cap bill retainer, and they also have a design that allows the cap bill to stick almost straight up behind the machine. In particular, it looks like the Tajima NEO series solves this problem very nicely. Maybe others do as well. 

Caps are fair amount of my business, and my next embroidery machine (if i am successful enough to get another one) will have a better design for handling structured caps.


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## nalob (Jun 23, 2011)

Hi I have an melco xts hopefully I can help you. 

1. If the top if the hat hits the arm then you need to lower the starting point of the design. Move it closer to the bill. 
If that docent work then you need to shrink the design a little. I try to keep my designs at 2-2 1/4" tall. 

2. Stock designs were probably not digitized for hats. Some may turn out good. But moat probably won't. Especially if they have an outline it usually doesn't turn out good. 

3. I use tear away backing for all my caps. I heard some might use cut away. Think it's personal preference. 

4. You should definitely raise the pressure foot. It should be right above the material being sewn but not touching. For me some parts touch and some parts it doesn't. But it shouldn't be hitting the hat really hard that it's popping.


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## Printmark (Sep 25, 2011)

Hooping the caps tighter isn't going to help, its the fact that they are hitting the bar that is messing you up. I've run Melco Amaya's and the cap frame snaps onto a bar that is adustable and can be moved, so your starting point is in the optimal position to allow maximum movement while stitching.

For caps I alway run the presser foot at it's maximum height and turn off any sensors associated with bobbin detection. You don't want to press the cap down to the bar, just let it follow its natural curve.

Tear-away backing for caps is much preferred and I agree 2 to 2.25 inches in height is about all your going to get out of most caps.

Printmark


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## sassystitches (Sep 16, 2010)

Riph, I did structured caps on a PR-650 and PR-620 regularly without issues. Is the PR-1000 that different?

To the OP:
1. we generally run 2" on low profile caps, no more than 2.2" high on regular profile - if your design is within these sizes then you probably need to move the design down on the cap
2. stock designs weren't digitized with the correct compensations to be sewn onto caps, I have stopped wasting my time with stock designs on caps and only use designs that were digitized for caps
3. I use tearaway


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## Riph (Jan 11, 2011)

Sassy-
I don't know I have not use the 6 needle machines. I know the cap frame from the 650 won't work on the 1000, but I don't know much more than that.


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## imeccentric (May 13, 2007)

I've done thousands of caps with very few problems. I always keep them under 2 1/4 inches and preferably around 2. Very seldom have I ever had to change a design to sew on caps either. If the band of your cap hoop is exactly over the seam of the bill, you should have no problem, unless they are low crown caps. I never use any stabilizer for structured caps and use a standard ball point needle. I usually run at about 1000 spm for hats. The popping sound you are hearing is called "flagging" and it is what happens when the needle is coming up through the cap. It is trying to pull the cap with it. Some buckrams on structured caps are very thick and if you have a dense design, you might just have to put pressure on the cap to keep it from lifting up. That should solve most of your problems. The only time I've had to worry about re-digitizing is for lettering with different colored outlines. Also, you might try not putting the bottom clip on and gently lifting the crown while sewing on the top part of the design. This gives you a little extra fabric and room to keep the arm from pushing the cap outwards.


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## arrowembroidery (Oct 2, 2011)

The popping sound you're hearing is merely the cap willing to come along the needle (which is obvious at such a high spm), so don't worry about that. If the fabric of the cap is thick and the needle cannot come out of it completely, then you should put some pressure on the cap to keep it in place since this way the needle cannot stitch properly. And still if the problem persists, just shrink your design a little bit, odd but works sometimes.


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## DVB (Mar 23, 2010)

I had problems with needles breaking and the popping sound that you are talking about and asked a fellow tradesman in the business, he also told me to adjust the size of the design just a little smaller and adjust the frame upward just a little bit. And it worked! I was so grateful.


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## beyondstitches (Nov 28, 2010)

I didn't see the original posters machine or cap frame info...Did I miss it?
I do a lot of hats. I like doing them... especially the structured ones.
I have a Amaya XTS, keep the design at 2.25 inches mostly and use both the wide angle cap frame, and the quick change frame. You need to raise your presser foot, and slow the machine down a little. I use tear away backing and sew from the inside of the design out. 
There are other adjustments that I make with my thread feed that may not be applicable in your situation. Thread tension adjustment is critical for hats. 
Also I have found that hats with flattened front seams (when doing structured hats) helps the machine to run a little smoother.


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## NavyGuy (May 26, 2011)

Riph,
I had a PR650 with the hat frame 2 until the PR1000 came out. I kept my hat frame 2 and continue to use it on the PR1000. While I have thought about upgrading to the hat frame 3 for the expanded sewing area I have had great results with the HF2 and structured hats.


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## American logoZ (Sep 16, 2009)

It sounds like we don't have the same kind of machine.. About all I can add, then, is that when I use backing (unstructured caps) I have found that regular copy paper works nicely. Fold it in thirds (like a letter). It slips right into place and tears away nicely. For structured caps, I rarely use backing. And when I have trouble with flagging, it's usually a cap that doesn't fit quite right in my frame. I slow down the speed a bit and make a note to not recommend that style to my next customer. Slowly I'm building a list of caps that work best with the shape of my hat frame.


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## Calvinstein (Nov 5, 2016)

Can anyone tell me where to purchase machine embroidery designs for ball caps? Thanks

Gene


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## sfilippo1 (Feb 13, 2017)

Riph said:


> Sassy-
> I don't know I have not use the 6 needle machines. I know the cap frame from the 650 won't work on the 1000, but I don't know much more than that.


when lettering across the front do I arch it and if so in what direction and how much?


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## splathead (Dec 4, 2005)

sfilippo1 said:


> when lettering across the front do I arch it and if so in what direction and how much?


If your design calls for an arch, then an arch is fine. But it is not necessary for it to look correct on the cap. A straight line of text in your art will result in a straight line of text on your cap.


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## jja1022 (Aug 29, 2017)

How can I get the design lower than the allowed area for a hat hoop on pr 620? The design always seems to be about an inch higher than I want it to be (About 2 in from the brim). I have the teeth from the hoop pushed all the way to the edge of crown and beginning of brim. I'm not sure what else to do. Thanks for your help in advance


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## digidana (Jun 20, 2016)

it always helps to have a design that is digitized specifically for caps. stock designs never are and will almost always be a problem. if you'd like to send me the design you're trying to stitch i may be able to reorder it for you. 

as far as arching the lettering....it can be arched, or it can be straight. it typically depends on what your customer wants. just make sure it starts stitching from the middle of the cap towards the outsides.

always make sure you're stitching it as low as possible on the cap. when you start stitching up by the curve of the cap that makes all the problems worse.


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## tfalk (Apr 3, 2008)

jja1022 said:


> How can I get the design lower than the allowed area for a hat hoop on pr 620?


Using the cap frames that came with the machine, you can't.... it simply will not let you.

The only way I know to embroider caps closer to the brim on the Brother/Babylock 6 or 10 needle machine is to use the Hooptech dream frame setup. They were demonstrating it at ISS when I went earlier this year. I finally pulled the trigger and ordered the frame and gauge for my PR1000 yesterday, I should have it later this week or early next week. Once I play with it a bit, I can post back if it really works or not, at least in my opinion...


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## queenx4 (May 30, 2011)

tfalk said:


> Using the cap frames that came with the machine, you can't.... it simply will not let you.
> 
> The only way I know to embroider caps closer to the brim on the Brother/Babylock 6 or 10 needle machine is to use the Hooptech dream frame setup. They were demonstrating it at ISS when I went earlier this year. I finally pulled the trigger and ordered the frame and gauge for my PR1000 yesterday, I should have it later this week or early next week. Once I play with it a bit, I can post back if it really works or not, at least in my opinion...


 How did it work? I am considering the Hooptech right now.


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## tfalk (Apr 3, 2008)

We got really busy with a large shirt order, haven't really had a lot of time to play with it. I've sewn 2-3 hats with it so far. Slight improvement so far, honestly cannot say if it was worth the $800 for the frame and the jig. 

If you want exasperation, try sewing an oval applique on a hat... tried it on a flexfit, off by 1/4 inch.


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## queenx4 (May 30, 2011)

tfalk said:


> We got really busy with a large shirt order, haven't really had a lot of time to play with it. I've sewn 2-3 hats with it so far. Slight improvement so far, honestly cannot say if it was worth the $800 for the frame and the jig.
> 
> If you want exasperation, try sewing an oval applique on a hat... tried it on a flexfit, off by 1/4 inch.


I can't tell you how many good hats I have ruined using the cap frame that comes with my machine. I feel your pain! 

I just want to be able to put a cap on my embroidery machine and be confident it will sew out correctly.


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## cmeliz23 (Jul 10, 2018)

imeccentric said:


> I've done thousands of caps with very few problems. I always keep them under 2 1/4 inches and preferably around 2. Very seldom have I ever had to change a design to sew on caps either. If the band of your cap hoop is exactly over the seam of the bill, you should have no problem, unless they are low crown caps. I never use any stabilizer for structured caps and use a standard ball point needle. I usually run at about 1000 spm for hats. The popping sound you are hearing is called "flagging" and it is what happens when the needle is coming up through the cap. It is trying to pull the cap with it. Some buckrams on structured caps are very thick and if you have a dense design, you might just have to put pressure on the cap to keep it from lifting up. That should solve most of your problems. The only time I've had to worry about re-digitizing is for lettering with different colored outlines. Also, you might try not putting the bottom clip on and gently lifting the crown while sewing on the top part of the design. This gives you a little extra fabric and room to keep the arm from pushing the cap outwards.


I actually have a question for you, I have a Brother PR1050X 10 needle and I had no problem with my first set of structured hats. But I just recently got an order to do another design that I had to recreate from artwork. It came out nice on my software but when I went to embroider it, it came out crooked. It is on the left front panel and it started out fine, but then it started to move closer to the bill. Do you think if I move the design up a little on the hat away from the bill it will possibly solve the problem? You seem very knowledgeable, so I figured it couldn't help to ask.


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## tfalk (Apr 3, 2008)

@cmeliz23 who digitized the design you are having issues with? Does the design sew bottom up center out? If not, that could be your problem.


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## brenden (Dec 11, 2008)

Hi. I had the pleasure of co-hosting a webinar on Embroidery for Caps with Erich Campbell who shared his wisdom and insights cap embroidery. You might find this useful.

https://www.deconetwork.com/blog/webinar-embroidery-for-caps/


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