# FULL Color Printing...I'm So Confused...



## SilverfishTees (Dec 12, 2010)

Hey,

I do mainly heat transfer vinyl cutting and transferring to shirts. My main business is made-to-order shirts so HTV makes sense for these small-scale runs. (Occasionally people will ask for larger scale. It's doable but that's not my main business.)

I'm getting frustrated though.

I'm very limited in my designs due to the method i use (both the way the material functions, as well as weeding complications). I want the ability to create more complex artwork rather than just these solid colors and very rigid designs. (I do some multi-colors, but even that gets to be too much when it's 3+ colors...the labor weeding can kill my whole profit margin)

I'm looking into other options and avenues to have the ability to print full-color images onto shirts (not necessarily photographs, but by full color I mean numerous colors with fading, shadows, gradients...etc. – you’ll see from the pics I posted below)

I keep tiptoeing into the Screen Printing arena (doing research into possibly purchasing a startup kit) but i very quickly put my tail between my legs and hightail it out of there! (Nice metaphor ;-) I understand that ANY new industry is intimidating and requires a LOT of trial and error to learn the line (I already went through that with vinyl) but even basic one color printing seems complicated. When it comes to more complex ideas? Fuggedaboutit! It looks VERY over-the-top difficult to do and I wonder if i'm opening too big a can of worms by trying it….Like, will I find myself in a year from having to purchase a machine that’s bigger than my garage? 
Also wondering if that's even the best solution for what I'm looking to do....
(A lot of people are going to say it’s not worth it because of the “Small-scale” concept. That since I only doing small runs, setting up screens is going to be too expensive per shirt… However, little caveat to mt business model: every time I print it is generally small runs. I print each one to order. But over time I can sell MANY of the same shirt….so the cost if the screen setup gets swallowed with volume overtime…(Now this is a question that I CAN’T ANSWER: am I still wrong because just the labor of printing a single shirt will nbe too much? Need the experienced people to answer that one….))

I look around at the shirts out there (online, etc.) and even purchasing some shirts to sample their methods and I'm just so confused...what methods are these people using to get these results????

See these images of shirts I found for sale on amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/adidas-Golden..._UL250_SR170,250_&refRID=0AXRDYPW9Z809HAZVJJ0

















Or this:
Famous Panda Carolina Panthers Cam Newton Dab On EM Men's T Shirt at Amazon Menâ€™s Clothing store:









HOW ARE THOSE DONE???

Then…I purchased the below from an amazon seller and I have ZERO clue how it was printed… look at the texture…it’s definitely not a transfer, and it looks so bled into the garment that I don’t think it could be screen printed….is this that fake “sublimation on cotton” method? Is this DTG? Doesn’t look so great in my opinion….:


These are the ones I bought:

















This is one I recreated with vinyl:

















How are these t-shirt being printed? I know the description says Screen Printing (not necessarily true…amazon sellers can write whatever they want but even if it is true) but how is that possible? Is screen printing truly able to get these results? If so...sign me up.... How can I get such results? Is it a crazy amount of painstaking time, money, and physical labor to get such a result?

DTG? I’m getting very mixed reviews about the quality and cost of it….

Laser Transfers? Once again, getting very mixed feedback on this method…..

Sublimation? That’s limiting to polyesters and I want to stick to cottons….


Any insight would be helpful.

I’ve also got a LOT of experience with Heat Transfer Vinyl printing if anybody has any questions in that area I’d LOVE to return the favor.

THANKS IN ADVANCE!


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## esodesigns (May 17, 2015)

If you are a small run guy, did you consider DTG?


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## SilverfishTees (Dec 12, 2010)

Thanks for the reply!

Well i'm not sure if you read the whole post (it was LOOONG, i know, i apologize ;-) but I was looking into that and I guess was a part of my question... I'm not sure where to look for DTG....are the results decent? I'm getting mixed reviews....


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## TLK (Jan 15, 2013)

Hi,

You're never going to get decent results similar to the full colour images you've posted up with a start-up screen printing kit. You'd need a minimum 8-10 colour machine (auto would be best). Screen printing designs like this would use simulated process or index separations and you need an experienced separator to make them work. It's not something you can just pick up over night. 

If you want to print full colour images in lower quantities then DTG, heat pressed transfers or sublimation (on white polyester garments) is the way to go.


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## SilverfishTees (Dec 12, 2010)

TLK said:


> Hi,
> 
> You're never going to get decent results similar to the full colour images you've posted up with a start-up screen printing kit. You'd need a minimum 8-10 colour machine (auto would be best). Screen printing designs like this would use simulated process or index separations and you need an experienced separator to make them work. It's not something you can just pick up over night.
> 
> If you want to print full colour images in lower quantities then DTG, heat pressed transfers or sublimation (on white polyester garments) is the way to go.


Wow, thanks for the very clear, concise and detailed answer. Much appreciated.

Looking into DTG....very confusing. Because a lot of these technologies are new and always evolving, I'm never sure what to trust based on my research.... Complicated.

Alright. Thanks for your help.

One more thing i'm considering is getting a Print/Cut machine which can print full color transfers but once again, i'm unsure about the actual results and I get very mixed opinions....


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## TLK (Jan 15, 2013)

SilverfishTees said:


> Wow, thanks for the very clear, concise and detailed answer. Much appreciated.
> 
> Looking into DTG....very confusing. Because a lot of these technologies are new and always evolving, I'm never sure what to trust based on my research.... Complicated.
> 
> ...


No problem. I'm pretty sure someone will call me up on this, but screen printing will always produce the best most durable results (using the right printer). For the type of designs you want to print the equipment needed is substantial though and the learning curve is steep. If you get them printed by someone else the MOQ will be high for this much detail and colours. 

Roland Versacamm print and cut machines are decent used along side a good heat press. You won't get the soft finishes that can be achieved with screen printing, DTG or sublimation. I don't know much about DTG, but from what I've seen the print isn't as vibrant as a screen printed image plus they don't seem to last as long after washing. 

All the different processes have pros and cons and you just need to decide which suits best. If you can get along to a tradeshow some time that might help you decide.


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## AdvancedArtist (Nov 23, 2006)

TLK said:


> Hi,
> 
> You're never going to get decent results similar to the full colour images you've posted up with a start-up screen printing kit. You'd need a minimum 8-10 colour machine (auto would be best). Screen printing designs like this would use simulated process or index separations and you need an experienced separator to make them work. It's not something you can just pick up over night.
> 
> If you want to print full colour images in lower quantities then DTG, heat pressed transfers or sublimation (on white polyester garments) is the way to go.


This is very bad and untrue information. Go learn about color and halftones and then please come back and enlighten us with correct information.


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## iebriggs (Jan 26, 2015)

Full color printing with DTG is the way to go. You may end up doing it for 2-3 color because of the ease. I personally have a Freejet 330tx and enjoy using it. The simple maintenance and ease of use made it a winner for me.


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## TLK (Jan 15, 2013)

AdvancedArtist said:


> This is very bad and untrue information. Go learn about color and halftones and then please come back and enlighten us with correct information.


Please, tell me why this is bad information...


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## AdvancedArtist (Nov 23, 2006)

Because full color printing really depends on the number of colors in the image and how you handle that. Then there are halftones and how you that. It boils down to color and ink coverage if I have time in the next few I will try to go more in depth. the attached was printed with just a white base, red and yellow. On a black shirt and we used the black of the shirt.

The cell phone photo does not due the print justice by any means.


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## TLK (Jan 15, 2013)

AdvancedArtist said:


> Because full color printing really depends on the number of colors in the image and how you handle that. Then there are halftones and how you that. It boils down to color and ink coverage if I have time in the next few I will try to go more in depth. the attached was printed with just a white base, red and yellow. On a black shirt and we used the black of the shirt.
> 
> The cell phone photo does not due the print justice by any means.


Yeah, I understand how that works, if you read my post. We work with halftones, it's standard. I'd like to see how you get a full colour print (like the basketball t-shirt design in the OP) using a screen printing start-up kit. That's what I was referring to, not your picture of the tiger print (nice print though).


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## AdvancedArtist (Nov 23, 2006)

TLK said:


> Yeah, I understand how that works, if you read my post. We work with halftones, it's standard. I'd like to see how you get a full colour print (like the basketball t-shirt design in the OP) using a screen printing start-up kit. That's what I was referring to, not your picture of the tiger print (nice print though).


Tiger was done on a manual. All the pics he posted 3 or 4 colors no need for 8 - 10 colors. If you want to print with that many colors I have no issue with that but it is not a requirement. I have seen amazing prints from DYI table presses. 

BB Print - Red, Yellow, Black and white using the blue of the shirt will produce a good result. Also take a look at it, it is not printed it is the graphic pasted onto the shirt I think.


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## TLK (Jan 15, 2013)

There you are then SilverFishTees. To get full colour prints, all you need is a 4-6 colour tabletop press apparently. But, if you want to get a high quality finish with all the correct colours and detail I believe you'll need more. Just my opinion... Have a look at how it can be done - Myseps.com color separations


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## AdvancedArtist (Nov 23, 2006)

There is allot to consider in the process and allot to understand and I have not time to go into allot of it.

Halftone process - flamenco - Not the best practice.
Ink Coverage - flamenco again - Not the best practice. 
Are you going to print spot process or simulated process. I view them very differently.
Are you going to color match with pantone or simulate the color with gradients and blends with pure color. 
What color model are going to follow in your printing process?
Dotgain is that dialed in?

If you have things dialed in printing with just a few colors can produce outstanding results.


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## bobntoms (Apr 1, 2016)

I was in your situation. Just opened a small sign shop and my wife talked me into doing shirts. I use printable heat transfer vinyl for full color and straight colored heat transfer vinyl for single color shirts that don't have small lettering. After getting an order that ended up with lettering I couldn't successfully weed. I looked into screen printing and dtg. Screen printing for me was to expense and dtg would have to much maintenance required, given that I have a small shop and don't do shirts everyday. So I ended up going with an iColor 500 laser printer, it is CMYK, plus white. It is basically an Oki c711wt. If you look up forever laser dark no cut on YouTube it will give you an idea of the quality. It's weed less and requires no contour cutting. The durability they claim is up to 100 washings. I will not confirm that until I see it for myself. I just got my machine last Friday, and have to say after a few trial and error prints I am impressed. It has zero daily maintenence and doesn't require daily printing. 

Again I'm no shirt expert, but this solution worked for me. 



Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using T-Shirt Forums


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## SilverfishTees (Dec 12, 2010)

Thank you EVERYBODY for the GREAT discussion and all the info!

Very informative!


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## SilverfishTees (Dec 12, 2010)

bobntoms said:


> I was in your situation. Just opened a small sign shop and my wife talked me into doing shirts. I use printable heat transfer vinyl for full color and straight colored heat transfer vinyl for single color shirts that don't have small lettering. After getting an order that ended up with lettering I couldn't successfully weed. I looked into screen printing and dtg. Screen printing for me was to expense and dtg would have to much maintenance required, given that I have a small shop and don't do shirts everyday. So I ended up going with an iColor 500 laser printer, it is CMYK, plus white. It is basically an Oki c711wt. If you look up forever laser dark no cut on YouTube it will give you an idea of the quality. It's weed less and requires no contour cutting. The durability they claim is up to 100 washings. I will not confirm that until I see it for myself. I just got my machine last Friday, and have to say after a few trial and error prints I am impressed. It has zero daily maintenence and doesn't require daily printing.
> 
> Again I'm no shirt expert, but this solution worked for me.
> 
> ...


Oh wow! I was waiting for someone who had similar situation to mine! Yes, i've been VERY curious about the laser transfers but just haven't brought myself to invest yet due to very mixed reactions that I'm seeing on the results. I would LOVE to hear updates from you on the results of your trials with this new method! I'll PM you.

Also, you mentioned Printable Heat Transfer Vinyl. You mean a Print/Cut machine? If so, how were THOSE results?

Thanks!


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## socceronly (Jul 22, 2012)

The print/cut option you mention I assume is something like a Rolan BN20 or Versacamm? 

These are great for things like sports logos on jerseys, but I would not use it to make a large full front print like the ones in your pictures.

Ease of use, yes. But it will be really heavy for a print that large.


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## SilverfishTees (Dec 12, 2010)

socceronly said:


> The print/cut option you mention I assume is something like a Rolan BN20 or Versacamm?
> 
> These are great for things like sports logos on jerseys, but I would not use it to make a large full front print like the ones in your pictures.
> 
> Ease of use, yes. But it will be really heavy for a print that large.


When you say "really heavy," what do you mean exactly? Physically really heavy or it will be a very heavy workload on the machine?

Also, do you have experience with the BN20/Versacamm? What are the results like? I get mixed reviews (as usual, with everything ) . And when you say Sports logos vs the full print pictures that I posted, what do you mean? Can you show an example?


THANKS!! :tipthank:


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## socceronly (Jul 22, 2012)

SilverfishTees said:


> When you say "really heavy," what do you mean exactly? Physically really heavy or it will be a very heavy workload on the machine?
> 
> Also, do you have experience with the BN20/Versacamm? What are the results like? I get mixed reviews (as usual, with everything ) . And when you say Sports logos vs the full print pictures that I posted, what do you mean? Can you show an example?
> 
> ...


I mean the physical size. A left chest crest/logo is fine with the vinyl print. I use these for sports teams and have them made. I don't think it's a versacamm the guy uses but a Mimaki. Same end result really.

But to do a full size print on the front would be thick/heavy for that size.

You can't do the pictures you posted with a Versacamm type print/cut system. It would be very different. Full color yes, but solid as you can only cut away so much. 

Crests & Logos, but avoid this as a solution for a full front print like the ones you posted. 

Those need to be silk screened or DTG. On white you could use JPSS Inkjet transfer, but on dark you have the same problem with the Versacamm.


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## AdvancedArtist (Nov 23, 2006)

See these table press work.


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## digitizewedo (Nov 2, 2010)

those images could be screen printed no problem, however for low runs its not worth it. 
I would only screen print a 5-6 colour job on orders of 100 or more as the setup would be 
costly I charge for process prints or simulated prints $25 a screen x 6 is a $150 out of the 
gate. If it a photographic I use rapid seps, if its a vector file I use simple seps sep 3, 

Four colour process is best for whites or printing on discharge bases, 

Simulated process is best for dark garments, 

Colour separation and blending is required for photographics images, 

message if you want samples.


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## berkeley (Jun 14, 2014)

>>Now this is a question that I CAN’T ANSWER: am I still wrong because just the labor of printing a single shirt will nbe too much? Need the experienced people to answer that one….))<<


YES! setting up and registering multiple screens for a job is a ton of work to print one shirt. it can take anywhere from minutes to HOURS to get screens registered just right, and if you are printing process half-tones, it takes 8 - 10 prints before the colors start mixing together correctly to get the print looking right. I don't know about you, but to set up multiple times to print a couple of shirts is a profit-killer for me...

Remind your customers on multi-color jobs that reprints runs with lower quantities than the original runs will cost more - had a customer butt hurt a couple weeks ago when I refused to set up a mutli-color multi-placement print job for 3 more shirts.


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## digitizewedo (Nov 2, 2010)

If you own the rights to the logos and are not infringing on someones copy rights , to reproduce those prints I would say that DTG would be best, even if you out source it. 

Screen printing you can do high quality images however you would need a minimum 6 head press, software to separate the colours, and possibly a rip to make the films, I use (3) different programs depending on the source of the file. (1) If its a vector file I use Simple seps 3 this allows me to separate the colour of vector files and print the half tones, if the file is a Jpeg I use rapid steps seps and have the colours format, so I can print them out with my printer. 

Simulated process uses standard plasitol inks, and or pantone colours, and four colour process is mainly for white garments, and you need process inks. The (3) option for printing full resolution is using discharge base with tints.


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## DukeFan (Aug 12, 2015)

iColor 500 or 600 (600 just allows you to print bigger) would be a great option. 

They are not the same as other laser LED printers bc they have the unique ability to print a white overlay for heat transfers from right within the software, and they do it in one pass through the printer. This allows you to transfer to dark garments without issue. UniNet is the manufacturer. They have 3 different types of papers with different durability ratings. Check it out. 

I bought one bc I'm an HTV person with a similar issue. I just got mine a few weeks ago, so I'm still testing it out. You definitely need a good, quality press for even heat.


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## SilverfishTees (Dec 12, 2010)

DukeFan said:


> iColor 500 or 600 (600 just allows you to print bigger) would be a great option.
> 
> They are not the same as other laser LED printers bc they have the unique ability to print a white overlay for heat transfers from right within the software, and they do it in one pass through the printer. This allows you to transfer to dark garments without issue. UniNet is the manufacturer. They have 3 different types of papers with different durability ratings. Check it out.
> 
> I bought one bc I'm an HTV person with a similar issue. I just got mine a few weeks ago, so I'm still testing it out. You definitely need a good, quality press for even heat.



THANKS! I'm gonna PM you bout this!


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## SilverfishTees (Dec 12, 2010)

In general, about this post, I just want to apologize (because someone did PM me about this). I know the images I included were gigantic and it was probably really annoying to read the whole post, having to scroll back and forth to see it.

Not 100% sure how to fix it....i think it's past my window of time that I could edit the post....

Oh well..... Anyway, I appreciate people taking out the time to read it and I apologize about the messed up formatting. Will avoid that in the future.


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## TeesbyT (Mar 18, 2012)

What kind of transfer paper do you print on? I'm trying to use my Epson from my screen printing days.


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## Awbeckett44 (Sep 10, 2017)

I have a vinyl cutter and a epson 7620. Is there such thing as vinyl that I can put through my printer then cut out? I know there is heat transfer paper and also the vinyl cutter can do cuts but I want to figure out if I can print on vinyl of some sort to get multi color images. I might not sound to clear but please help because I would like to be able to do multi color vinyl with what I have. I would need vinyl for decals and also need vinyl for clothing


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## DrivingZiggy (Apr 24, 2017)

Jet Pro Soft Stretch (JPSS) seems to be a favorite around here. Is this what you're looking for?


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## GoodsonGirl (Sep 20, 2017)

I specialize in screen printing and embroidery. I would suggest 4-color process but only on white shirts. 4-clor process rarely turns out as you hope for when printing on a dark shirt because a base is needed and would not give the full effect. You could always do spot colors, but can get costly but would more than likely accomplish the desired look


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