# Information needed on a few DTG printers (Brother GT-541 and the HM1)



## MotusLaurage (Jun 21, 2011)

Hello, just a few questions that I have about the Brother GT-541 and the HM1.

I have searched but I really haven't found concrete answers so I finally decided to post a thread. I have personally just had an experience with the Brother and I LOVED IT!. However, I have been searching and boom, I run into the HM1 and it doesn't sound too bad either. I know that I can't print white ink with the Brother and that's fine but I read that the HM1 can print white ink and that's definitely a plus!. 

About my company ...
- Eco-friendly and will be printing on organic cotton, hemp, bamboo. I have already printed a few light colored t shirts in these materials with the GT-541 and they came out great.
- Size range in my product will be XS-XXL
- There isn't much of a design, just my logo right across the chest.
- Price range would be less than 15K, I have found the Brother for pretty cheap, just waiting till tomorrow to get quoted on the HM1.

My questions are as follows ...
- Personal experiences, would you guys recommend the Brother GT-541 or the HM1? 
- I know Brother makes their own inks, where can I purchase these?
- As far as eco-friendly would it be better to go with the Brother or HM1? I think I read something about the GT-541 having eco-friendly print heads?. Not sure.

Sorry for the story, I just want to get some feedback from fellow members that have had experience and know much more about this than me, thanks in advance!!.


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## DAGuide (Oct 2, 2006)

MotusLaurage said:


> My questions are as follows ...
> - I know Brother makes their own inks, where can I purchase these?


The inks are readily available from the Brother distributor in your area / territory (depending on where you live) or you can also purchase them from the Brother PAS Store (The PAS Store - Your One Stop Shop & One Stop Solution). Most people buy them from the Brother distributor that they get the printer from. The distributor will come out to your place and do the install / training for you as well.

No matter what new printer you buy, you are probably best using the ink from that manufacturer / distributor in order to maintain your complete warranty on your printer. There are a lot of posts on this in this forum.



MotusLaurage said:


> - As far as eco-friendly would it be better to go with the Brother or HM1? I think I read something about the GT-541 having eco-friendly print heads?. Not sure.


I don't think there are any eco-friendly print heads. You are probably confused with the inks. Brother does have the Oke-Tex (sp?) certification that they allow their customers to use to promote that their inks are eco-friendly. This certification is a big thing if you plan on selling items to children that are covered under the CPSIA law.

As far as which printer you should go with, you should really do your research on what exactly it takes to print white ink (i.e. pretreatment, maintenance, wash tests, higher cost per shirt,...). There are several of stories on this forum of people that made a decision to go with numerous white ink printers only to find out for one reason or another it would not work with their business. Go see in person any printer that you are interested in and ask to see everything from start to finish. This includes printing your own artwork using the printing software included with the printer, pretreating (if you are printing with white ink or just CMYK on to polyester garments), curing procedures, maintenance on the printer,... Many sales reps make the entire white ink pretreatment process sound easy, but it is not for most users. It can also get the surrounding area messy. Best advice I can tell you is to do your homework and go the extra step. This is a large investment and you need to be more than comfortable with your decision.

Best wishes with your research!

Mark


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## MotusLaurage (Jun 21, 2011)

DAGuide, 

Thank you for all of your input!. I already have had a few experiences with the GT-541 and honestly I am very pleased with the results. I have done a lot of research but once I think I have done enough research, I find more and more info so I will continue to look into both of these printers. I'm aiming more towards the Brother though, anymore input of fellow members with experiences with either printer will be awesome!


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## spiderx1 (Oct 12, 2009)

Mark is right on target as usual. 
White ink looks so easy in the demos but in the long run it is 80% of the headaches associated with DTG printing, and expense for that matter. Also the more often you use white ink the less of a problem it is. White must be used daily (more or less). Closed ink systems such as bags and carts help. Bottles will lead to evaporation and viscosity changes that lead to cloggs. There are methods to apply white ink then print over. A bit complicated at first but possible. IMHO


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## Don-ColDesi (Oct 18, 2006)

> Closed ink systems such as bags and carts help. Bottles will lead to evaporation and viscosity changes that lead to cloggs.


Closed systems also lead to repeated instances of white ink separation in the lines and dampers requiring both scheduled and unscheduled head cleanings which can result in thousands of dollars of wasted ink over the course of a year. Repeated instances of agitating white ink back into suspension lead to larger "clumps" of both pigment & binder everytime the ink is allowed to settle out.


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## TahoeTomahawk (Apr 12, 2006)

Don-ColDesi said:


> Closed systems also lead to repeated instances of white ink separation in the lines and dampers requiring both scheduled and unscheduled head cleanings which can result in thousands of dollars of wasted ink over the course of a year. Repeated instances of agitating white ink back into suspension lead to larger "clumps" of both pigment & binder everytime the ink is allowed to settle out.


I've saved thousands of dollars in wasted ink trying to clear clogs, flushing the entire system, lost prints due to starvation, so on and so on.


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## spiderx1 (Oct 12, 2009)

TahoeTomahawk said:


> I've saved thousands of dollars in wasted ink trying to clear clogs, flushing the entire system, lost prints due to starvation, so on and so on.


 Using which system, I got the impression that Don was against the closed system.


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## TahoeTomahawk (Apr 12, 2006)

The original system that came on my 15k DTG Kiosk was nothing but a money pit. That was an Open bottled system which had all of the problems Don just described, which is what I thought his post was odd. In the open bottle system there is tons of separation as well in the lines over time. I cannot count how many times we had to dump out the ink left in the bottles, wash out the bottles, flush the lines, backflush the dampers and the head.

Getting it going in the morning was a huge waste of $$ as well. It required you to hold ink fill for a bit or do several head cleans followed by a test print or 2 before the majority of the nozzles returned.

With the closed system that pretty much eliminated that. If there is any separation you can vigorously shake the bags which you cannot do with the bottles only gently swirl them. Shaking the bags also helps mix up the settling in the lines. 

Even with the settling, we haven't found it to be much of a problem at all on the closed system. In fact, we havent lost a single print head due to settling or clogging. The most we've had to do was backflush everything (once every 4-5 months).


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## spiderx1 (Oct 12, 2009)

No I think Don was pushing the WIMS. 
Over a closed.


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## TahoeTomahawk (Apr 12, 2006)

spiderx1 said:


> No I think Don was pushing the WIMS.
> Over a closed.


I know 
But what he described was the problems with the bottles as it being problematic for Closed Systems.

Clogging, Clumps, etc.


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## Don-ColDesi (Oct 18, 2006)

All closed systems on the market require scheduled head cleanings during periods of inactivity (overnight, weekends, etc.) - these scheduled head cleanings add up to the numbers I mentioned. White ink allowed to settle and then be agitated back into suspension will have progressively larger "clumps" of both pigment & binder. Any machine left unused will suffer more problems than one used regularly - evidence individuals who are using "closed" systems who insert cleaning solution filled bags or cartridges during periods of inactivity. You cannot keep white ink from settling out short of keeping it circulated/agitated frequently. The only other option is to move it from the static portion of the ink delivery system (the lines & dampers) via head cleanings. Again, not arguing the benefits of a closed system over bulk systems on our machines (and others) from 3-7 years ago - the closed systems are indeed superior to the old open bulk systems that neither pressurized the colors nor circulated & stirred the white during periods of inactivity.


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## Don-ColDesi (Oct 18, 2006)

Adam, your old Kiosk ($15,000 6 years ago I believe) still does scheduled head cleanings every 6 hours to move the ink in the lines that has settled (which happens with all static ink delivery systems whether open or closed)- it was a technology we developed early on to address the settling issues that has subsequently be adopted by the majority of the marketplace now that we have moved on to a system that circulates the white ink to prevent settling.


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## TahoeTomahawk (Apr 12, 2006)

Don, in theory that sounds great. Automatic head cleans, keep ink flowing. Unfortunately the Automatic head cleans do next to nothing. A normal head clean does not move enough ink to keep the ink agitated even if you do a simple head clean every hour let alone 4-6. What it does do though, is waste alot of ink.

We shut both of our machines off completely at night, both the Kiosk and the MOD1. No auto head cleans.

Why the settling plays a factor in open bottles and not so much in the bags is a mystery to me. Maybe someone from Dupont would have an explanation?

Also, when settling does occur you will notice the separated part flows through the damper filters and head, not clumps or sludge. That's why separated ink will be less opaque.
It takes but a few minutes to re-agitate the ink in the dampers, lines and bags if you let it sit for a 3 or 4 day weekend.


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## FatKat Printz (Dec 26, 2008)

Don-ColDesi said:


> Closed systems also lead to repeated instances of white ink separation in the lines and dampers requiring both scheduled and unscheduled head cleanings which can result in *thousands of dollars* of wasted ink over the course of a year.



thousands of dollars??? I would agree that's amount right but not wasted because "our closed ink system conversion" wasted ink cost consists of:

2- Unscheduled head cleans (1 morning and 1 night)

(2 printers running 6-7 days a week for a year) 
estimated 1460 unscheduled head cleans (365 x 4) = 1460

2- Perfect nozzle check in the morning = 730 
(_nozzle checks that aren't necessary_) but when it became a habit to do this everyday (on bottles) in hopes of starting the day right away instead of waiting 2-3 hours to get started. 



Don-ColDesi said:


> Repeated instances of agitating white ink back into suspension lead to larger "clumps" of both pigment & binder everytime the ink is allowed to settle out.


If someone has a picture of a "clump" from a closed ink system I would love to see it.. so I can watch out for it. 

I haven't seen any of these so called "clumps" .. I mean my ink lines are much bigger, the ink is degassed and micro-filtered and also using "Enhanced Dampers" so..maybe there is a clump somewhere amongst those things but we haven't experience anything in that nature. 

1 shake a day to the white ink I would hardly say is..
(_considered repeated instances of agitating ink_) 

isn't that what WIMS does? constantly agitates the white ink?

Now my wasted ink when on bottles .. 

After 1 year we had to throw away 1 case of test prints shirts and we used every inch of those shirts. Because, now test prints are rarely ever needed because we don't cross our fingers and hope to god it gonna print. 

My infamous picture of ink that had to be thrown away because of it needing ink to be "added" to the bottle just to print so really when you mix old ink and new ink > does that make it new ink? I mean when you get an oil change the old oil comes out and new oil comes in.. 


So back to this thousands of dollars.. its because the printer runs and we tell it when it needs to stop not the other way around. So if anything is spent on our machines it is ink.. 

NOT DOWNTIME
NOT REPLACEMENT OF PARTS
NOT WASTED INK 
NOT REFUNDS

etc etc etc.. 

little added bonus to my gallery of pics.. here is my capping station @ 8 months old .. maybe longer now. 1 thing that has been replaced on my first K2 bagged printer in 17 months.


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## Don-ColDesi (Oct 18, 2006)

You will not be able to see the "clumps" that form from ink settling - they are not that large. And you are correct that the settling of ink in the lines is not a factor of a closed or open system - it is a factor of a static system. Unless I am very mistaken you do not, nor have you ever run or owned a machine with the current WIMS sytem on it, so you are speaking from your experience only with a six year old open static system versus a static closed bag system. I speak from my experience with both static and non-static systems, as well as open & closed systems (including bags & cartridges).


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## TahoeTomahawk (Apr 12, 2006)

Don't inkjet printers for the most part need to be static or unpressurized? Negative pressure helps jetability, positive pressure cam deform the droplet size.


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## FatKat Printz (Dec 26, 2008)

Don-ColDesi said:


> Unless I am very mistaken you do not, nor have you ever run or owned a machine with the current WIMS sytem on it


No, you are correct I never had WIMS... but when I convert the K2 that's coming in next week and removing their WIMS for bags. I will check it out, all I can say is that I have "heard" it before. 

Already have several bulk ink systems laying around.. 

Do you take any trade in credit on a WIMS ??


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## TahoeTomahawk (Apr 12, 2006)

FatKat Printz said:


> No, you are correct I never had WIMS... but when I convert the K2 that's coming in next week and removing their WIMS for bags. I will check it out, all I can say is that I have "heard" it before.
> 
> Already have several bulk ink systems laying around..
> 
> Do you take any trade in credit on a WIMS ??


Carla please send the used WIMS system, I'm going to have the fanciest drink mixer on the block.


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## Don-ColDesi (Oct 18, 2006)

Actually Carla (I'm assuming that is who I am speaking with here) - if you leave your Kiosk on overnight it does a head cleaning every 6 hours - which equates to 4 times a day or 1460 a year at roughly 4 ml per head cleaning = 5.8 l per year @ $279/l for ink = $1630 a year for the ink used in these scheduled head cleanings, add your two (morning & evening) and you add another 730 to the mix for a grand total of 2190 @ 4 ml, 8.7 liters @$279 = about $2400 which would qualify for thousands. 

The WIMS system circulates the ink before it gets to settle (the time is adjustable, but is factory set at 4 hours on the Viper). Agitating bags and moving ink through a system by head cleanings deals with ink that is most likely already settled.


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## FatKat Printz (Dec 26, 2008)

TahoeTomahawk said:


> Carla please send the used WIMS system, I'm going to have the fanciest drink mixer on the block.


Sounds good.. don't forget the filter don't want your guest getting any surprises in their drinks, those microscopic clumps.. they say you can't see them but they are there..


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## Rodney (Nov 3, 2004)

Let's not forget the questions of the original poster. I'd hate for this thread to be another back and forth about WIMS vs Closed and have the original poster miss out on answers to their questions


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## FatKat Printz (Dec 26, 2008)

Don-ColDesi said:


> Actually Carla (I'm assuming that is who I am speaking with here) - if you leave your Kiosk on overnight it does a head cleaning every 6 hours - which equates to 4 times a day or 1460 a year at roughly 4 ml per head cleaning = 5.8 l per year @ $279/l for ink = $1630 a year for the ink used in these scheduled head cleanings, add your two (morning & evening) and you add another 730 to the mix for a grand total of 2190 @ 4 ml, 8.7 liters @$279 = about $2400 which would qualify for thousands.
> 
> The WIMS system circulates the ink before it gets to settle (the time is adjustable, but is factory set at 4 hours on the Viper). Agitating bags and moving ink through a system by head cleanings deals with ink that is most likely already settled.



*But didn't DTG Digital create the auto head cleans every 6 hours???* 

So your company sold me a machine knowing ahead of time, I would be wasting $1630 a year on ink per year!!!! 

Hmmm..didn't see that in the brochure.


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## Don-ColDesi (Oct 18, 2006)

*Re: Information needed on a few DTG printers*



FatKat Printz said:


> No, you are correct I never had WIMS... but when I convert the K2 that's coming in next week and removing their WIMS for bags. I will check it out, all I can say is that I have "heard" it before.
> 
> Already have several bulk ink systems laying around..
> 
> Do you take any trade in credit on a WIMS ??


Actually Carla, we never sold a WIMS system for the Kiosk, some resellers may have developed one on their own or retrofitted one - but ColDesi/SWF East never implemented the WIMS on any Kiosks or Kiosk II units. The unit you are removing must have come from somewhere else. Thanks for the offer however.


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## FatKat Printz (Dec 26, 2008)

MotusLaurage said:


> I already have had a few experiences with the GT-541 and honestly I am very pleased with the results. I have done a lot of research but once I think I have done enough research, I find more and more info so I will continue to look into both of these printers. I'm aiming more towards the Brother though, anymore input of fellow members with experiences with either printer will be awesome!


What kind of experiences have you had? Because, as you know the Brother you are talking about doesn't do dark shirts since it requires white ink..whereas the HM-1 does dark shirts. 

Many have been successful, running just light/white colored shirts. Are you gonna be satisfied with that limitation?


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## Don-ColDesi (Oct 18, 2006)

Rodney said:


> Let's not forget the questions of the original poster. I'd hate for this thread to be another back and forth about WIMS vs Closed and have the original poster miss out on answers to their questions


Thanks Rodney, though the machines being compared are in essesnce WIMS vs, proprietary closed - the real question for the original poster is whether or not his business plan calls for the ability to print on darks. The Brother GT-541 is a very good machine and Brother has gotten very aggressive with their pricing on them as they close them out to introduce their next generation machines. But, the 541 does not print on darks. If the model for the poster's business requires dark garments being printed then the 541 does not meet his criteria. If the business plan can be modified to eliminate dark garments - then the 541 is a serious contender.


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## Don-ColDesi (Oct 18, 2006)

FatKat Printz said:


> *But didn't DTG Digital create the auto head cleans every 6 hours???*
> 
> So your company sold me a machine knowing ahead of time, I would be wasting $1630 a year on ink per year!!!!
> 
> Hmmm..didn't see that in the brochure.


We did develop the scheduled head cleanings on the late models of the Kiosk prior to the release of the Kiosk II in 2006. At the time it was the only technology available to deal with white ink. In late 2008 we came out with the HM1-C that incorporated the WIMS system to eliminate the scheduled head cleanings. There was about a $4000 price difference between the HM1-C and the Kiosk II at that time. The option was the scheduled head cleanings or nothing at all which is what most developers had nothing in place to manage white ink. When you purchased your machine in late 2008 you could have opted for an HM1-C for the $4000 price difference. An option was provided - the decision to opt for a Kiosk II or HM1-C was yours. Now - all of our models come standard with this technology, and we have eliminated the older technology of scheduled head cleanings.


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