# M & R Print vs. Workhorse...which one?



## mikeltodd (Jan 24, 2008)

Ok, I know I have posted a few times regarding automated equipment. We have been quoted equipment from M & R Print and the price seems reasonable but when we spoke with Workhorse the price extremely attractive plus they have a few specials this month like a free infeed extension for our dryer and a buy one get one free flash unit. It also seems that we’re getting more for our $, with M & R we thinking of getting a Sportsman E with 10s/8c but with the Workhorse they are quoting a Falcon with 12s/10c for the same price and almost $10k less if we go with the 10s/8c. 

Being new to the industry this is confusing the heck out of me. I understand that the falcon is a faster machine too for when we get our large runs of 10000 plus shirts. 

Any thoughts? 

Also gas dryers vs. electric dryers? Which are more energy efficient?


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## stix (Feb 3, 2008)

Put in this way.. When you walk into the largest print shops.. what do you see.. M&R or Workhorse? I will answer for you M&R!! I know there are other autos that will get the job done, but M&R has been a true "Workhorse" for us.


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## Steelheader100 (Jan 18, 2007)

M&R is the top of the line. My next press will be a Sportsman E. When it was time for our new dryer I compared electric versus gas and for us it worked out much better with a gas dryer because of the cost of our local utilities. Electric would have been almost twice as much a month to operate. Your area may be different. Our M&R mini sprint has been a great dryer so far. It is very consistent with its temp. I recommend M&R.


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## SPECTRAL GREG (Jul 3, 2008)

Have you had a look at the TAS range,seems pretty good.I was hoping to put one in this year but it didn't and probably won't.Ah,maybe next year.


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## OlympiaScreen (Jul 26, 2008)

I'm looking into the freedom press by workhorse. 
I've been printing for about 8 years and I don't want to wreck my hands.. I'm only doing about 500 shirts a week right now, but plan on getting more busy. I like that the workhorse can do light on dark one color prints with one screen. and I like that all the options I need are free. I'm still trying to decide between *workhorse freedom* and *M&R diamondback *.. right now I'm leaning more towards the workhorse..

any thoughts or experiences any of you could share would be appreciated..
There's not much out there as far as consumer reviews for auto's

thanks


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## neato (Mar 21, 2006)

Have you checked out the Anatol Horizon?


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## out da box (May 1, 2007)

Try and get your hands/eyes on one up close and personal, it'll help you decide better- i.e. local shop or trade show.


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## OlympiaScreen (Jul 26, 2008)

Thanks.. Word on the street is that all anatol stuff is pretty bad..

But that smaller press they have is looking pretty good!
are the rumors true?


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## neato (Mar 21, 2006)

OlympiaScreen said:


> Thanks.. Word on the street is that all anatol stuff is pretty bad..
> 
> But that smaller press they have is looking pretty good!
> are the rumors true?


What street have you been on? lol.

Anatol and M & R are supposed to be the best.


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## tpitman (Jul 30, 2007)

mikeltodd said:


> Being new to the industry this is confusing the heck out of me. I understand that the falcon is a faster machine too for when we get our large runs of 10000 plus shirts.


Just out of curiosity, I'm getting a vibe here that you're not a screenprinter as of yet. Where do you see the 10,000 plus shirt jobs coming from, and are you planning on hiring people with screenprinting experience to run this equipment. Maybe I missed something in your post, and I apologize if I have, but this is a big jump for someone who describes themselves as "new to the industry".


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## OlympiaScreen (Jul 26, 2008)

Yes.. you might want to wait and start with a manual.. I''m considering buying a automatic and I've been doing manuel for 8 years..


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## mikeltodd (Jan 24, 2008)

Yes we are new but fast learners. We actually just got back from Arizona and completed the US Screen Printing School. While we were down there we toured the WorkHorse facility and were very impressed with the Falcon automated. The immediate downside is that there isn't really a compatable manual that will work side-by-side within their product line (meaning using the same screen as an auto). We are planning to visit M & R next week to seriously look at the Sportman E with a Sidewinder manaul to go along with it. We do have a local screen printer that is going to be on staff with us as a consultant and hopefully a 3 day a week worker. 

I would like to thank all of you for your feedback, it has been EXTREMELY helpful.


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## fdsales (Jul 1, 2007)

If you're looking for an auto & manual printer that uses the same screens, then find a printer that can handle a 23 x 31 screen. However, you'll find that in most cases, due to different position areas of images on screens for manual & auto press, you won't be able to use many of your screens on both manual & auto press. Yes, you can mount the screen itself, but image placement will be an issue. We tried it ourselves when we had both systems, and found it was just easier to burn seperate screens based on what press it was going on. Also, mesh counts are different; auto press generally use higher mesh count screens than a manual.
Also, we were in the s/p biz for 16 years using manual press before we got into an auto, and the salesman that sold us the auto stated "Forgot everything you know about screen-printing, as you're about to learn it all over with an auto press", and he was right. Other than it uses ink, it's a totally different method of printing, a lot more critical, then manual printing. Everything has to be dead on, tight registration, screens burned properly & properly tensioned....all the things you can get away with on a manual just don't apply to an auto. So my suggestion is to get your "teeth cut" printing on a manual press for a while, sub out your large orders to a contract printer w/ an auto, and learn the business top to bottom. Make your mistakes now printing on a manual, becuause on an auto, you can be 6 to 8 shirts printed before the first shirt comes back around to you to realize there's a problem.
Also, my opinion is M&R is the best...like previous poster stated, look at the big professional shops, and they have M&R. They are probably the most expensive auto printers, but there's a reason for that. You really do get what you pay for here.


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## out da box (May 1, 2007)

Toxic, you're right on the mistakes, they compound VERY, VERY fast! Before you catch one error you've made 8 or 16 or 24 mistakes, extremely fast. This is something you have to be really careful about,as I'm still learning. Good point.


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## mikeltodd (Jan 24, 2008)

Thanks for all your input, we will take in account all the information you have provided. I think we are 100% on choosing the M & R Equipment. Due to our clients we are going to purchase an auto and we will have a screen printer on staff that has worked in the industry since 1994.

Question for you Brian (FDSALES): You were mentioning that you can't line the screens up correctly with the Manual then the Auto. If we are thinking of using a pin reg system like either the Tri-loc from M & R or the PinLock from Stretch Devices (Newman Frames) will we run across the same issues you are having? 

One purpose of our Manual will be to set up "Sample" shirts for our clients to approve and then the following day or next availble slot on the auto use the same screen.

Thanks

Michael


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## out da box (May 1, 2007)

I think if you burn your screens with the fact in mind that you will be printing on both the manual and the auto, you shouldn't have any problems, especially with a tri-lok or newmann reg system.


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## Georgies (Jul 30, 2008)

just get a MHM...nothing beats it. Austirans really know their machines. We have had mhm's for 20 + years..rock solid. and get a gas dryer if your looking for large numbered runs..


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## stix (Feb 3, 2008)

Hopefully you have done more research about the M&R presses. I would also ask for references from each distributor and ask.

How was the service after the purchase?
How many times have you called tech support?
Did you have any problems with registration?
Would you buy the another press from the manufactuer?


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## fdsales (Jul 1, 2007)

mikeltodd said:


> Question for you Brian (FDSALES): You were mentioning that you can't line the screens up correctly with the Manual then the Auto. If we are thinking of using a pin reg system like either the Tri-loc from M & R or the PinLock from Stretch Devices (Newman Frames) will we run across the same issues you are having?
> 
> One purpose of our Manual will be to set up "Sample" shirts for our clients to approve and then the following day or next availble slot on the auto use the same screen.
> 
> ...


It really depends on the manual press. Some models have larger print areas that may allow you to print using the same screens on both manual & auto. If you sure that your getting the M&R auto, check with them also on the manual. Most likely their manuals with work with the same screens. Side clamps on the manual may be better suited also. Just remember you'll need the same number of heads on the manual as on the auto. Also remember that with manual printing will render slightly different print results than on the auto, especially when dealing with halftones & blends, so the print made on the manual may come out slightly different then when it's setup on the auto.


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## jeffie (Jan 30, 2008)

Hey, has m&r solved pfpf problems or do you still spider program (works similar to manual) the work horse imho was the most versital when we bought 18mos ago...wwgrainger has most of the common parts that break....the flashers make it i think....looked at m&r and lawson both are more robust (read thicker steel stronger looking welds ect but are you printing shirts or smashing it with hammer....mhm is also leagues ahead of most what with the electric micros....i can either set up 10-12, 1-2 color jobs /day 100sih shirts each or run high volume (rates have exceeded 670/hr left chest no flash) on our freedom 6/8 ....jeffie


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## Rickrothmi (Jul 27, 2008)

An MHM is the best press in term of speed of set-up, printing stability, and staying in registration. They also have by far the fastest change-over of platens (eg. switching from large to sleeve.) They aren't as well known in some parts of the US but have been sold here a long time. A Tas is a more solid press than the ones being discussed. Gas is more energy efficient than electric. The person arguing about going in shops and what do you see - I think there are more Dodges than Mercedes on the road but it doesn't mean they are better, and we are talking about riding in comfort here, we are talking about what can make us money and do it for a long time.


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## Georgies (Jul 30, 2008)

yeah but the elctrical registration system imho is not the way to go...the manual registration system is dead on accurate and also repairable easily. I own a Syncroprint 3. with 16 tables. Its simply amazing. It has the chopper sustem for the squeeges and flood bars.. my old MHM has the V style squeegee and flood bar (incorperated in one squeege). And the adjustments ARE ENDLESS.

MHM all the way. Nothing comes close.


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## Georgies (Jul 30, 2008)

I have a video of my machine in action..but i dont know how to host it...


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## Georgies (Jul 30, 2008)

ok i uploaded it to youtube. heres the link guys. Trust me MHM is the BEST!

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76kg5IzGApk[/media]


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## OlympiaScreen (Jul 26, 2008)

nice video..

I think I'm gonna throw up.

steady cam anyone?


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## OlympiaScreen (Jul 26, 2008)

Btw. After months of research just bought an M&R diamondback new.
My first automatic!!

I will let you guys know how it goes.

very excited. I spend the extra money and got a quieter 60db screw drive compressor.


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## out da box (May 1, 2007)

Congrats! You'll love it.


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## gabescully (Mar 15, 2007)

I'm about to buy a slightly used Mach 4 (4 station, 4 head) workhorse manual press. Any thoughts or anything I should know? The machine wasn't used for commercial use, but art purposes. Let me know. The seller wants $2,000 for it, but he's also throwing in a standard flash dryer. Sound good?


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## Tombomb12 (Sep 21, 2008)

i've been printing on an m&r for almost 10 years now and it has been a great machine. it's durable, user friendly, and FAST. that being said, if you are new to this business, start on a manual. 
in screen printing you will learn more from your mistakes than anything else. every day can be different. with a manual, you can afford to make a few mistakes. with an auto, you've got alot of money invested in a machine that could have 100 shirts printed before you even know it. auto's are made to print thousands of shirts all day, every day. unless you already have this kind of clientel, a good manual press will be more than enough to make your business a success. 
check out m&r, antec, and anatol.


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## OlympiaScreen (Jul 26, 2008)

Tombomb12 said:


> i've been printing on an m&r for almost 10 years now and it has been a great machine. it's durable, user friendly, and FAST. that being said, if you are new to this business, start on a manual.
> in screen printing you will learn more from your mistakes than anything else. every day can be different. with a manual, you can afford to make a few mistakes. with an auto, you've got alot of money invested in a machine that could have 100 shirts printed before you even know it. auto's are made to print thousands of shirts all day, every day. unless you already have this kind of clientel, a good manual press will be more than enough to make your business a success.
> check out m&r, antec, and anatol.



Agreed!

My wife made a video comparing my old press (Hopkins yellow nightmare) to the new Diamondback. 

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BtMSzpCWqE[/media] 

I have been using my new M&R Diamondback for a few months now and it is working better than expected. 
It prints perfect every time. As far as mistakes it is true.. it will get way ahead of you. TAPE TAPE TAPE as much as you can. 
I would also highly recommend the Tri-Lock registration system if your buying one. It makes everything a lot easier!! You will need some sort of system for registration anyways and this system has been dead on for me every time. 

All in all Workhorse V.S. M&R ... I'm really glad I chose M&R!!

Also got Economax dryer with extra radiant panel and it's keeping up just fine. Haven't tried water based yet though... probably won't work so well.


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## elcrowley (Feb 27, 2009)

From Spain...

M&R is the BEST option. Their machines are as solid as rocks. Bullet proof.


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## coolkyle (Feb 9, 2008)

If you start with a manual and want the future transition to auto to be easy, get the new Chameleon manual. With side clamps and 16x22? boards, you can do everything an auto can do and then some. I use an 8-color chameleon that even has air locks (they aren't hooked up to the compressor yet), with 7 side-clamps and one back clamp for giant all-over screens. All the platens are interchangeable with the automatic press, and I could even use the tri-lock if I wanted to. As far as the tri-lock system goes, it's only as good as your screen person. The only thing I don't like about this press is that it's very heavy so it takes a lot of effort to fly on those larger PFP orders.


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## tpitman (Jul 30, 2007)

"The only thing I don't like about this press is that it's very heavy so it takes a lot of effort to fly on those larger PFP orders"

I think the weight of the machine is the only "complaint" I've ever read about the Chameleon. On the bright side, you'll have shoulders like a linebacker and forearms like Popeye!

M&R is one of the few presses I'd buy sight unseen.


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## BP (Jun 10, 2008)

I have been screen printing for 23 years and the only equipment that I used is M&R! And I have used workhorse ****!


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## Press Doctor (Dec 12, 2007)

M&R hands down.


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## jeffie (Jan 30, 2008)

Hey We went thru this 2 years ago ...no doubt about it the M&R is a more robust machine....WE bought the "freedom". The one most important point is the pfpf on one head peroid dot dot.Cost difference will fall away based on volume of shop.
Wish we had 3 flashers ( I modified ours to flash before print to "simulate" 3rd flasher)...jeff


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## bok (Mar 17, 2007)

mikeltodd said:


> Ok, I know I have posted a few times regarding automated equipment. We have been quoted equipment from M & R Print and the price seems reasonable but when we spoke with Workhorse the price extremely attractive plus they have a few specials this month like a free infeed extension for our dryer and a buy one get one free flash unit. It also seems that we’re getting more for our $, with M & R we thinking of getting a Sportsman E with 10s/8c but with the Workhorse they are quoting a Falcon with 12s/10c for the same price and almost $10k less if we go with the 10s/8c.
> 
> Being new to the industry this is confusing the heck out of me. I understand that the falcon is a faster machine too for when we get our large runs of 10000 plus shirts.
> 
> ...


I have to two automatic machines, both of them are M&R, once you bought M&R, M&R is forever.
Gas dryer is right choice.


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## mikeltodd (Jan 24, 2008)

bok said:


> I have to two automatic machines, both of them are M&R, once you bought M&R, M&R is forever.
> Gas dryer is right choice.


Thanks for all your support with this posting. We did purchase the M & R Sportsman E 10s/8c and couldn't be happier with our choice. We have been printing for over 3 months and have about 15K imprints to date. 

As mentioned before we are new to this industry, but with the help of this forum, M & R (Stan Appel & Brian Flar) and our suppliers over at Tech Support in PA (Bill Redeker & Al Howe) we are on the road to success.

Thanks again all! It feels GREAT to be able to say I feel like a true screen printer (even though I know I have a LONG way to go).

Michael


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## printing40years (Dec 27, 2008)

M&rm&rm&rm&r!!!!!


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