# Sawgrass is NOT the ONLY Dye Sub Ink



## Digital Michelle (Aug 1, 2008)

"
*Why do we care so much about the cost of dye sub ink?"*

I just joined today, Iwas looking in the Dye Sub category because that is what I do. There are two other Dye Sub Ink Manufacturer's in the U.S., that because their dyes are just "different" enough they can compete against Sawgrass. The best of these at $40.00 per color for 4 ozs is Graphic Digital in Milwaukee, Oregon, their colors "pop" so much brighter than Sawgrass, and need no ICC profile, ask for ThermaBrite Brand when ordering for dye sublimation, the other is J-Teck 3 (Italian Company, US distributor is in Danbury Connecticut.) They sell their dye by the litre at $135.00. You just have to "shop", I was beyond sick of Sawgrass' monopoly, and knew that there had to be someone else out there they hadn't gobbled up or stepped on, so I spent 3 hours searching the web on ever search engine, with multiple search words, and well, these two company's dye's are equl to if not better than Sawgrass. Of course if you have nothingto compare Sawgrass to trust me, these two company's manufacture very good dyes. I do not work for either one, I just know that of the 5 years I have been in business 3 of them have been spent using Graphic Science's Dye's with no problems with clogging, or running... I hope this helps some of you bring your costs down to where they should be.


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## sandollar (Dec 7, 2007)

Michelle , Do you have some web-addresses to go by? And do you think that I could use another printer other than an epson? I think with the info I've been reading I might just get into Dye Sublimation. 
Thanks Mike


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## DAGuide (Oct 2, 2006)

Michelle,

You are right that there are other manufacturers of sublimation inks. Some of these manufacturers make ink for large format printers (42" and larger) and the ink is much cheaper. For example, J-Teck makes sublimation for large format printers and is one of the companies that has signed a license agreement with Sawgrass to sell their inks. Here is a link to the press release that was made about this license agreement - Sawgrass Technologies & J-Teck 3 SRL Sign License Agreement for Sublimation Technology. I have never heard of Graphic Digital and they might have a similar license or they might not.

It was my understanding that any company that signs the license agreement has agreed to not sell to printers below 42" wide. There is a post on this forum will a user found a cheap 9600 printer and now can save money on the ink he buys because his printer is 44" wide. My understanding could be completely wrong, but this is what I have been told. If there is a company selling to people how own printers below 42"... it might not be the best thing posting their name in this forum as Sawgrass definitely watches all the industry forums and has sent these companies a Cease & Desist letter.

Mark


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## Digital Michelle (Aug 1, 2008)

Well, I use a Epson 1280, it may true that they are not supposed to sell to anyone who uses a smaller printer, no on can tell you WHAT printer you can put the dyes in if you purchase by the litre. I have never been asked what kind of printer I am using, accept of course those times when I have had to buy a new EMPTY bulk ink system. I fill them myself.


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## Daniel Slatkin (Jun 25, 2008)

Digital Michelle said:


> Well, I use a Epson 1280, it may true that they are not supposed to sell to anyone who uses a smaller printer, no on can tell you WHAT printer you can put the dyes in if you purchase by the litre. I have never been asked what kind of printer I am using, accept of course those times when I have had to buy a new EMPTY bulk ink system. I fill them myself.


I'd make sure you read your terms and conditions of use on the printer you purchased. It probably states that using any other ink than Epson ink or media will null and void the warranty and is against the terms of service, but then again I'm not an attorney but I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night


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## Digital Michelle (Aug 1, 2008)

Way too fuuny! I like that... 
Anyway, I have not had a warranty issue with my printer when I brought it in, I have 2 of them no problems. I have been doing dye sub for over 5 years now, stuck with the Epson 1280's because, well, they're just a little workhorse... So as the saying goes stick with what works.. 
I really did enjoy the "Holiday Inn" comment


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## AustinJeff (May 12, 2007)

I wonder how they verify the size of your printer.


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## DAGuide (Oct 2, 2006)

AustinJeff said:


> I wonder how they verify the size of your printer.


They ask for the serial # on the printer.


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## CUSTOM UK (Jun 28, 2008)

Hi Michelle. Sublimation ink is undeniable far too expensive for what it is. You unfortunately have to add these extra costs onto your products, which in turn makes your product less competitive.

DTG will eventually overtake sublimation, which will then be relegated to producing on hard substrates. Its a real shame, as sublimation produces good results.


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## PRIMJET (Jul 25, 2008)

Yes it's thrue of course because in USA two other Companies have a valid patent for sublimation transfer ink but I do not know the price of their products:
-One is EPSON
- Second is Nu-Kote more known as Pelikan
You can also buy a special disperse dye for direct printing onto hard substrate + a special pre-coat and You can print directly on the hard substrate. This Direct disperse dye is patented but not buy SAWGRASS.
Cost is much cheaper that sublimation transfer ink , only You need a FB printer


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## sid (Oct 6, 2007)

As for DTG taking over sublimation, I doubt it. There is no way a DTG can produce the quality and durability on the various products we print on. It will never achieve the "no feel" of the image on all the substrates from tile, metal, glass and fabric. DTG will have a place in the future but it will mostly be in the Tee Shirt business. From what I read in the posts here (and we would like to acquire some equipment) it has a long way to go before the ease of use, machine costs come down, and inks work to meet the expectations of it's users.


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## PRIMJET (Jul 25, 2008)

sid said:


> As for DTG taking over sublimation, I doubt it. There is no way a DTG can produce the quality and durability on the various products we print on. It will never achieve the "no feel" of the image on all the substrates from tile, metal, glass and fabric. DTG will have a place in the future but it will mostly be in the Tee Shirt business. From what I read in the posts here (and we would like to acquire some equipment) it has a long way to go before the ease of use, machine costs come down, and inks work to meet the expectations of it's users.


I'm not speaking direct printing with solvent ink or with water based pigmented ink. I'm speaking direct printing with disperse dye ink on a special pre-coat. I have some photos of tiles with subli transfer and some with Direct printing and I can tell that You do not see the difference, see photos: 3 are subli, two are direct printing


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## sid (Oct 6, 2007)

Look at these images of some of my products with no feel to them. The softness and flexibility of the of the fabrics on the bags and the gloss and sharpness of the metal cannot be touched by direct print.


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## CUSTOM UK (Jun 28, 2008)

Sublimation is great, but I too had to buy a large format printer, to be able to buy the inks at a sensible price and not be dictated to by one manufacturer.

The thing that will ultimately kill off sublimation tees however, is the lack of variety in garments. Bit like old Henry Ford, you can have any colour you like as long as its white(ish) or made by Vapor. 

Customers are entitled to better choice than that surely?


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## imeccentric (May 13, 2007)

Will,
Don't be limited only by what is "specified" as sublimation garments. I just look for styles from my regular clothing wholesaler that are polyester. I've been printing on "regular" clothing for a long time with no problems. Even in a pinch, poly tops from walmart or wherever work just fine. In fact, I'd have to say that t-shirts really don't comprise much of my business at all. Since I'm an embroiderer, I do tend to have a greater access to "regular" clothing wholesalers, but just because I deal with so many types of garments. By the way, I'm no lover of Sawgrass either but mainly because of their arrogance and lack of service. When you compare the cost of their inks to a regular printer, there really isn't much price difference, we just buy in larger cartridges. I believe my regular Canon cartridges have 13 ml for about $15. My artainium cartridges run about $128 for 110 ml and about $203 for the 220 ml ones. Carried out, that means my artainium cartridges cost me about $1 more than standard ink for my canon in the 110 ml size and is about $51 less for the 220 ml size as compared to standard canon ink. Does it hurt to buy 8 cartridges at that price, you bet, but it seems to be a fact of life right now.


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## CUSTOM UK (Jun 28, 2008)

It's somewhat different here in Europe Jim. Bulk inks (pigment or dye) are around $24 per colour, whilst sublimation ink for small formats is about $110 per colour. Yep four times the cost!!! Bulk sublimation ink for the larger format printers is *less than half* the price of what it is for small format printers.

I have used straightforward polyester shirts for sublimation, but continuity of supply for my stock items can sometimes be a problem.


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## imeccentric (May 13, 2007)

Will,
Isn't EVERYTHING different in Europe I have a close friend in London and I tease her constantly about the differences. Businesses are the same no matter where you live, they are there to make money(I'm no different except that I'm not a greedy about it). Which , of course, is why I'm poor


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## sid (Oct 6, 2007)

I have a thread about dropping dyesub shirts. We use cotton AAs and others and apply dye subed flock and satin to them. We also use vinyl. As a fashion house we can't sell poly. As for inks if your saw my images I posted earlier we only use 4 colors not eight. We don't use light cyan and light magenta or different blacks. I don't believe you need them to achieve good images. Even on metal you can't tell the difference and you save a lot on your ink purchases. If you are doing medium volume and plan to expand buy a used wide format printer. 7800 or 9800. Their are a ton of them out there because a lot of photographers have upgraded to the newer models. Like the 4000 these can run dual CMYK and don't have to use 8 different inks. They are faster and cheaper to run. We haven't tried the different sub inks out there that people are talking about but as we buy more equipment we will do some tests and check them out.


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## CUSTOM UK (Jun 28, 2008)

*ALL* of my printers are four colour machines. If printing on fabric, four colours still produce photo quality results. The only people that seem to be promoting eight colour machines, are those that sell them.

My vinyl tees dramatically outsell my sublimation tees, as people tend to prefer cotton. Several people on here are currently experimenting with subli flocks and subli vinyl, but are still doing wash tests to assess their viability.


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## imeccentric (May 13, 2007)

Neal,
You are correct that you only need 4 colors for printing on substrates. You only need 8 if you are printing archival quality photographs. I run the 4800 hybrid system since I do print on cottons too. Dye sub has its place and is great for some things. Choice is what the business is all about and each of us has their niches.


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## Digital Michelle (Aug 1, 2008)

WHy do they need to know the size of your printer, just a larger container for less money....Just ordered it online,And if there is supposed to be a difference in the dyes, the only thing I can say is that the images are brighter, they pop more. Not sure about T-Shirts, as the more I read of this, the more I'll just stick with tiles.. I tried a few T-Shirts in the begining (5 years ago) and well, I just didn't like them, so not much has changed since then, so I still stay away from "cloth" .. THanks for all the comments everyone, but, I'll stay with what I do best, tile murals....(For indoors of course, outdoor tiles get the kiln-treatment, as dyes do fade way too much in the sunlight, not a very long shelf-life)


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## CUSTOM UK (Jun 28, 2008)

Good luck with it all Michelle. At least with the tiles you don't have to worry about folks ordering wrong sizes, carry stocks of all the tee sizes, or be dictated to by just one or two manufacturers. Fortunately the tees are just one part of my business, so I don't get too involved.


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## Digital Michelle (Aug 1, 2008)

Thank you so much, Will. I appreciate that. I wish you the best... Happy Sales, to you;-P


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## vancesmom (Sep 23, 2008)

Does anyone know where I can get some black replacement inks for my Sawgrass Direct Advantage printer QUICK. I am in DESPARATE need to get black ink tomorrow!!!! I am in the middle of a large order due out Thursday and can not get any ink until Friday. I appreciate any and ALL help!!!! THANKS!


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## DAGuide (Oct 2, 2006)

Nancy, 

Where are you located? That might help people determine who can help you.

Mark


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## vancesmom (Sep 23, 2008)

I live in Taneytown, Maryland. Just south of Gettysburg, Pa and northwest of Baltimore. I am willing to drive a couple of hours each way. Sure beats waiting until it is too late!! Thanks for asking!


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## kmyck1 (Feb 20, 2007)

Digital Michelle said:


> "
> *Why do we care so much about the cost of dye sub ink?"*
> 
> I just joined today, Iwas looking in the Dye Sub category because that is what I do. There are two other Dye Sub Ink Manufacturer's in the U.S., that because their dyes are just "different" enough they can compete against Sawgrass. The best of these at $40.00 per color for 4 ozs is Graphic Digital in Milwaukee, Oregon, their colors "pop" so much brighter than Sawgrass, and need no ICC profile, ask for ThermaBrite Brand when ordering for dye sublimation, the other is J-Teck 3 (Italian Company, US distributor is in Danbury Connecticut.) They sell their dye by the litre at $135.00. You just have to "shop", I was beyond sick of Sawgrass' monopoly, and knew that there had to be someone else out there they hadn't gobbled up or stepped on, so I spent 3 hours searching the web on ever search engine, with multiple search words, and well, these two company's dye's are equl to if not better than Sawgrass. Of course if you have nothingto compare Sawgrass to trust me, these two company's manufacture very good dyes. I do not work for either one, I just know that of the 5 years I have been in business 3 of them have been spent using Graphic Science's Dye's with no problems with clogging, or running... I hope this helps some of you bring your costs down to where they should be.


Thank you so much for this post!!! I started to get into dye sub about three years ago - and quickly found out about the Sawgrass had a monopoly - and like you was sick about it, but wound up being forced to spend almost $600 on ink and got an ICC profile and bulk system that stunk! The colors were always off and I kept trying to get help and got nowhere. I shelfed my whole dye sub ambitions and lost a ton of money. I really would like to carry dye sub products and I am going to contact the company ASAP!!! Thank you, thank you, thank you!!! 

TTFN,
Kimberly


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## DAGuide (Oct 2, 2006)

Not sure how accurate the information in this post is now. Here is a link to an article stating that J-Teck signed a license agreement with Sawgrass - Sawgrass Technologies & J-Teck 3 SRL Sign License Agreement for Sublimation Technology. Never heard of the other company before and not sure if they are still in business.


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## kmyck1 (Feb 20, 2007)

DAGuide said:


> Not sure how accurate the information in this post is now. Here is a link to an article stating that J-Teck signed a license agreement with Sawgrass - Sawgrass Technologies & J-Teck 3 SRL Sign License Agreement for Sublimation Technology. Never heard of the other company before and not sure if they are still in business.


If Sawgrass is the only option - I'll pass. I don't ever want to use any product from that company again. I'll look into laser sub.

Thank you for the reply!

TTFN,
Kimberly


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## DAGuide (Oct 2, 2006)

Sawgrass is not the only sublimation ink manufacturer. Just the other sublimation ink manufacturers have to get a license from Sawgrass (i.e. pay money) to sell the ink because of the patents that Sawgrass has on the process. So there are other options. You should contact a dye sub distributor (Conde, Coastal Business and few others make post here) and ask them for more details. I believe the size of your printer is key to which inks are available to you. Good luck,

Mark


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## mn shutterbug (Mar 19, 2009)

I just got off the phone with Graphic Digital and they are no longer selling their dye-sub ink, thanks to Sawgrass. If that changes, I'll be notified and let you all know.


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## ledpenny (Jul 18, 2007)

Digital Michelle said:


> "
> *Why do we care so much about the cost of dye sub ink?"*
> 
> I just joined today, Iwas looking in the Dye Sub category because that is what I do. There are two other Dye Sub Ink Manufacturer's in the U.S., that because their dyes are just "different" enough they can compete against Sawgrass. The best of these at $40.00 per color for 4 ozs is Graphic Digital in Milwaukee, Oregon, their colors "pop" so much brighter than Sawgrass, and need no ICC profile, ask for ThermaBrite Brand when ordering for dye sublimation, the other is J-Teck 3 (Italian Company, US distributor is in Danbury Connecticut.) They sell their dye by the litre at $135.00. You just have to "shop", I was beyond sick of Sawgrass' monopoly, and knew that there had to be someone else out there they hadn't gobbled up or stepped on, so I spent 3 hours searching the web on ever search engine, with multiple search words, and well, these two company's dye's are equl to if not better than Sawgrass. Of course if you have nothingto compare Sawgrass to trust me, these two company's manufacture very good dyes. I do not work for either one, I just know that of the 5 years I have been in business 3 of them have been spent using Graphic Science's Dye's with no problems with clogging, or running... I hope this helps some of you bring your costs down to where they should be.


I'm responding to your older post, several years, about the thermabright brite? inks, and graphic digital must have sold out, or is a different business in 2012. If you are still out there, where do you get the inks nowadays? Walt 408 298-2399


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## royster13 (Aug 14, 2007)

Or they may have been shut down by legal action from Sawgrass!!!


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## charles95405 (Feb 1, 2007)

I think all have been shut down by Sawgrass...I do not know of any legit, functional dye sub inks available...there is always Chinese inks, but......I would not use...they are not consistent and their ICC profiles don't always work...just buy sawgrass and price your product accordingly...I do and I profit!


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## mn shutterbug (Mar 19, 2009)

charles95405;1160319just buy sawgrass and price your product accordingly...I do and I profit![/QUOTE said:


> I'd call these "words of wisdom".


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

charles95405 said:


> I think all have been shut down by Sawgrass...I do not know of any legit, functional dye sub inks available...there is always Chinese inks, but......I would not use...they are not consistent and their ICC profiles don't always work...just buy sawgrass and price your product accordingly...I do and I profit!


Charles ... some do exist and not shut down by Sawgrass, and they are consistent, they are functional, have ICC profiles and support. Trust me. We just don't discuss them openly on the forum.

I agree with your pricing comment if you are doing small stuff like Unisub and mugs. Do you want to pay $2 - $2.50 for a 11x17 printed transfer on a $5 - $6 shirt or do you want to pay 50 cents for a 11 x 17 finished transfer? It's very hard for a user with a desktop printer to be competitive with large format just due to ink costs on tshirts.

The other issue is that Sawgrass has failed to keep current with the new desktop Epson models and forcing everyone that needs tabloid to spend around $1500 just for a printer and set of carts to start up. While cost per print as you mention can be cost adjusted to a degree on the finished goods price, startup costs are now obscene on a printer platform that has been plagued with issues. Do you want to spend $300 on a start up and have 5 times more ink or do you want to to spend $1500 on a printer and get one set of carts?


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## charles95405 (Feb 1, 2007)

at present I only do hard substrate with sublimation...and I am happy with that...for shirts, I use DTG....with the new Veloci T printer from EZ and DAS


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

charles95405 said:


> at present I only do hard substrate with sublimation...and I am happy with that...for shirts, I use DTG....with the new Veloci T printer from EZ and DAS


OK Charles rub it in.  You're DTG has white inks? I have sampled a few shirts with the white inks and found them pretty decent, I didn't care for the regular white or light color terms in terms of washability, but I was surprised at how well the white underbase has held up on the black shirts I have.

I only sampled a couple of the light shirts from a couple of different places so I'm not sure if those were reflective of light color DTG in general, but the dark shirts I got were impressive.

OK I admit it, I'm envious.


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## GordonM (May 21, 2012)

I wonder what DTG printers CafePress and RedBubble use? We've gotten several sample shirts from them, all using white ink (undercoat and as color), and the printing is flaking off after just a few washings. In the case of one CafePress shirt, after the first wash a crease from where they clamped the shirt into the frame showed up right a cross the top of the chest area. It can be ironed out, but at each wash it shows up again.

I think more and more people will use DTG -- especially as the technology matures and the price of machines come down -- rather than sublimation for basic apparel decoration, so in the end it doesn't really matter what captive audience Sawgrass tries to create. It won't do them any good in the long run.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

GordonM said:


> I wonder what DTG printers CafePress and RedBubble use? We've gotten several sample shirts from them, all using white ink (undercoat and as color), and the printing is flaking off after just a few washings. In the case of one CafePress shirt, after the first wash a crease from where they clamped the shirt into the frame showed up right a cross the top of the chest area. It can be ironed out, but at each wash it shows up again.
> 
> I think more and more people will use DTG -- especially as the technology matures and the price of machines come down -- rather than sublimation for basic apparel decoration, so in the end it doesn't really matter what captive audience Sawgrass tries to create. It won't do them any good in the long run.


I never tried the CafePress shirts, one of the black Tshirts I got was from Vistaprint, I use them for my DTP customers but they also have tshirts and caps and photo novelites. I can't recall where the other one I had came from. The white underbase was a bit heavy, but no cracking. I turn inside out when I wash and treat it like any screenprinted shirts I have.


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## GordonM (May 21, 2012)

Do you get the $6 "sale" price each time (the price they give you if you follow a Google ad into their store), or do you take a specific discount being a regular customer?

It's been about 8 years since I last ordered from Vista Print (business cards). Last time I did it I found myself in spam hell for a year.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

GordonM said:


> Do you get the $6 "sale" price each time (the price they give you if you follow a Google ad into their store), or do you take a specific discount being a regular customer?
> 
> It's been about 8 years since I last ordered from Vista Print (business cards). Last time I did it I found myself in spam hell for a year.


I have a reseller account with them.


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## jemmyell (Jan 26, 2010)

Hi MIke,

The Veloci-T printer is CMYK only, no white, so no underbasing is available. For a dark (Black) shirt the best (IMHO) is the NeoFlex but it is expensive and any printer that uses the Titanium Dioxide based white inks has a whole slew of problems that the CMYK printers do not have.

-James


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

jemmyell said:


> Hi MIke,
> 
> The Veloci-T printer is CMYK only, no white, so no underbasing is available. For a dark (Black) shirt the best (IMHO) is the NeoFlex but it is expensive and any printer that uses the Titanium Dioxide based white inks has a whole slew of problems that the CMYK printers do not have.
> 
> -James


thx. Kinda thought what you mentioned on the white inks as being a problem.


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## charles95405 (Feb 1, 2007)

James is correct....the Veloci T printer is CYMK....Light and pastels...but does a super job. I only use sublimation for hard surface substrates...and use the Veloci T printer for garments/materials and since it will do cotton and blends, I see no need for a large printer for sublimation...like the GX7000..which just died on me after nearly 5 years...so I replaced with the Ricoh 3100...as for Darks...I either use heat press vinyl if appropriate or outsource to a DTG source that does blacks..If it is a large order, then screen print... Each method has its merits and de-merits...so it a pick and choose depending on one's need..


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

charles95405 said:


> James is correct....the Veloci T printer is CYMK....Light and pastels...but does a super job. I only use sublimation for hard surface substrates...and use the Veloci T printer for garments/materials and since it will do cotton and blends, I see no need for a large printer for sublimation...like the GX7000..which just died on me after nearly 5 years...so I replaced with the Ricoh 3100...as for Darks...I either use heat press vinyl if appropriate or outsource to a DTG source that does blacks..If it is a large order, then screen print... Each method has its merits and de-merits...so it a pick and choose depending on one's need..


Got your bases well covered.


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## charles95405 (Feb 1, 2007)

Thanks Mike...forgot to add Rhinestones...but I see that market beginning to fade...at least in my area...but that is a subject for another thread!


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