# Camms machine vs. Mesa machine?



## gcmark (Sep 25, 2013)

We are about to make the big purchase and researching both companies. Looking for a comparison in service, training, air compressor vs no compressor.

Any info is much appreciated!


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## rjdavis61 (Aug 4, 2009)

I am considering the same. Prices for me are both $14000 I am leaning towards the decor from mesa. I have heard a lot of the problems are related to the compressor and moisture related in the cams. I like the led display with 1000 design capability. It is a bit faster also. Here is the test Automatic rhinestone machine, Cams rhinestone machine, Decor rhinestone machine, cams vs decor - YouTube The decor comes with 2 wheels each size so there are no others to purchase. Im only kinda leery because cams is the industry stardard. . Let me know what you think. I am currently using Crystalpress and brushing. I wish someone had both to chime in.


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## best26102 (Sep 29, 2013)

one word .. SERVICE !!! beware of promises made. Anyone can sell you a machine. Their are good and bad on both machines, are either of you considering the Salli machine? was impressive at the ISS show in Fort Worth


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## ifusion (Jun 3, 2011)

rjdavis61 said:


> I am considering the same. Prices for me are both $14000 I am leaning towards the decor from mesa. I have heard a lot of the problems are related to the compressor and moisture related in the cams. I like the led display with 1000 design capability. It is a bit faster also. Here is the test Automatic rhinestone machine, Cams rhinestone machine, Decor rhinestone machine, cams vs decor - YouTube The decor comes with 2 wheels each size so there are no others to purchase. Im only kinda leery because cams is the industry stardard. . Let me know what you think. I am currently using Crystalpress and brushing. I wish someone had both to chime in.


I have a 2009 cam1v2p originally sold by Mesa, then bank repo'd and I picked it up used.

I've had it for about 2 years now. I'm in sunny damp, south florida. I run it off a 400 dollar compressor from home depot and instead of a chiller, I have a line filter from habor freight.

Every other day I drain the water out of the line filter, and once a month I drain the water from the compressor... knock on wood I've never had an issue related to moisture (in south florida too).

From reading and talking to a few people, it seems that the moisture issues mainly affected the older model of the 1v6p units. (or maybe I am just lucky.)

Anytime I've had an issue (mainly related to alignment or my lack of training), coldesi got back to me the same day with free phone support.

I've never dealt directly with Mesa so I have no experiences to speak about with them.


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## rjdavis61 (Aug 4, 2009)

best26102 said:


> one word .. SERVICE !!! beware of promises made. Anyone can sell you a machine. Their are good and bad on both machines, are either of you considering the Salli machine? was impressive at the ISS show in Fort Worth


 Not heard of the salli machine. Who sells it. Do you have a link? Thanks


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## best26102 (Sep 29, 2013)

The salli HS300 machine is the first dual setter to speed up production of automated rhinestone setting machines.
www.faststones.com
www.axiomamerica.com
draw back is the stone holders are not cheap, but if I am running a design with more that 6 colors and sizes I can change a hopper while the design is running. Enjoyed that feature. the drive assembly is the top of the line. Very well built machine.


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## best26102 (Sep 29, 2013)

ifusion;145056
Anytime I've had an issue (mainly related to alignment or my lack of training) said:


> The training from any of the three companies is lacking the day to day operation and different situations the machine will produce. They are just a mechanical robot... with lots of moving parts and sensors and wires


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## WinnyJay (Feb 4, 2014)

The Salli HS300 Rhinestone Transfer Machine seems to be the best on the market. It uses a pretty cool 360 degree rotating piston, so as the piston is rotating it is both picking up and placing a rhinestone. Also, the machine places 300 stones per minute, double what CAMS or Decor place. CAMS will try to fool you and say they have one that places 600 a minute, but it is a multi head machine, so it is very large, and the 600 spm is a total, each individual head only puts out 150 spm. Plus the Salli HS300 places the stones much closer together so there is not so much of the space showing between the stones. Personally, i think when all that space is shown in between it makes the t-shirt look cheap. I'd recommend going with the Salli HS300


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## uglovdkg (Jan 3, 2012)

I'm looking at the website and it appears that The SALLI HS300 only comes in a 6 hopper


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## WinnyJay (Feb 4, 2014)

the HS300 does only come in a 6 hopper. However, if you are looking at a 2 or 4 head just to save money, i don't think that it is worth it. the HS300 saves you money in the long run in lots of places as well as in small places you would not expect. For example, the HS300 has a vacumm sensory which prevents the piston from moving on to the next spot if a rhinestone as skipped. Other machines keep going and then you end up with a gap. Depending on the transfer, you either have to add it in or just start over. Also the hoppers are easily removed and without tools so you can load one or a few up while the machine is busy transfering rhinestones on another project. Then when you are done with one project, hoppers are quickly added for the next project, if you were say changing the color or size of the rhinestones in the hoppers. Plus, for the CAMS 2 hopper machine, it can only place stones up to 5mm when the stones can be as large as 18.22mm. If you think you will only ever use stones smaller than 5mm, then yea, it could be ok. But the speed, precision, and other capabilities far out weigh that it only comes in 6 heads.


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## rhinestonetransf (Feb 11, 2009)

Does Mesa offer the 100% trade in value the first year? 

I know that Col-Desi has supported us on the Cams - we always get an answer fast. You will also find a lot of cams users online that can help with software or machine questions. You can also send them a file if you have a large order and need some help running it. I think Mesa tries to talk up the compressor issue - we have not had a problem with water at all - bought our first cams six years ago.

Scott


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## BML Builder (Jul 8, 2008)

WinnyJay said:


> the HS300 does only come in a 6 hopper. However, if you are looking at a 2 or 4 head just to save money, i don't think that it is worth it. the HS300 saves you money in the long run in lots of places as well as in small places you would not expect. For example, the HS300 has a vacumm sensory which prevents the piston from moving on to the next spot if a rhinestone as skipped. Other machines keep going and then you end up with a gap. Depending on the transfer, you either have to add it in or just start over. Also the hoppers are easily removed and without tools so you can load one or a few up while the machine is busy transfering rhinestones on another project. Then when you are done with one project, hoppers are quickly added for the next project, if you were say changing the color or size of the rhinestones in the hoppers. Plus, for the CAMS 2 hopper machine, it can only place stones up to 5mm when the stones can be as large as 18.22mm. If you think you will only ever use stones smaller than 5mm, then yea, it could be ok. But the speed, precision, and other capabilities far out weigh that it only comes in 6 heads.


I would like to see the Salli in operation, where is the next event that it will be shown? Is is going to be at any events in or near the Arkansas area in the next few months???


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## lizziemaxine (Nov 14, 2007)

BML Builder said:


> I would like to see the Salli in operation, where is the next event that it will be shown? Is is going to be at any events in or near the Arkansas area in the next few months???


Don't know if they will be exhibiting, but ISS will be in Nashville in May.


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## BML Builder (Jul 8, 2008)

Thanks Jane, but I didn't see any of the company names listed above on the Exhibitors list in the Nashville show.


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## rhinestonetransf (Feb 11, 2009)

You might also look at NNEP.org they have a show in Nashville end of July.


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## BML Builder (Jul 8, 2008)

Thanks Scott, I didn't find one in July, but found one in August, but I couldn't find any information on exhibitors. Any idea how to find out what exhibitors will be there?


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## rhinestonetransf (Feb 11, 2009)

Embroidery Mart-NASHVILLE Vendors - Embroidery Mart

I think Axiom is the one who is selling the machine but I'm not positive on that. The past few years they have had a booth at the show.

Scott


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## BML Builder (Jul 8, 2008)

Thanks Scott! I didn't see Axiom on the vendor list so I don't know if they are planning on being there at the show or not. I will keep looking. Thanks all for your help.


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## jasmynn (Sep 16, 2011)

I'm really skeptical about that Sally. Everyone I've seen with one is broken or out of service. Even at the ISS show in Ft. Worth. The Sally machine was down and they had someone there trying to repair it. I then went to a distributor for the Sally in Dallas. They couldn't even show me how it worked because it was not working. I never inquired about that machine again. I have a 2 color decor and am about to purchase a 4 color decor that does not require that horrible loud bothersome compressor! The CAMS, the old decor models and most other rhinestone machines use compressors. The new decor uses a vacuum. This alleviates half the the issues most people have with rhinestone machines. I've even spoken to a repair technician that has worked on both machines. He says the new decor is by far my best option. So, that will be my next purchase.


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## AxiomAmericaLLC (Nov 4, 2013)

jasmynn said:


> I'm really skeptical about that Sally. Everyone I've seen with one is broken or out of service. Even at the ISS show in Ft. Worth. The Sally machine was down and they had someone there trying to repair it. I then went to a distributor for the Sally in Dallas. They couldn't even show me how it worked because it was not working. I never inquired about that machine again. I have a 2 color decor and am about to purchase a 4 color decor that does not require that horrible loud bothersome compressor! The CAMS, the old decor models and most other rhinestone machines use compressors. The new decor uses a vacuum. This alleviates half the the issues most people have with rhinestone machines. I've even spoken to a repair technician that has worked on both machines. He says the new decor is by far my best option. So, that will be my next purchase.


jasmynn,

We are the official and sole US distributor for the Salli Rhinestone Transfer Machine. Since August of 2013 we have shown the updated model at several shows with zero downtime. The customers we have sold the machine to have been very satisfied with its efficiency and reliability.

Perhaps you saw a previous dealer showing an older model of the machine? If you would like to take a look at Axiom America running the Salli HS300 Rhinestone Transfer Machine we would be more than happy to schedule a personal demo at ISS Atlantic City (the next time we will have the HS300 at a show).


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## rhinestonetransf (Feb 11, 2009)

I really don't understand all this talk about a the vacuum and compressor - we have had the cams for six years without any trouble with the compressor - and the only service people that have worked on both lost the dealership for cams so I don't think that they are impartial - I have never run a Decor but I know that the cams is a great machine and to not consider it based on a vacuum is strange to be. I had a machine that had a vacuum pump and it had a life of 2 -3 years.

Scott


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## YourLogoGear (Jul 5, 2011)

WinnyJay said:


> The Salli HS300 Rhinestone Transfer Machine seems to be the best on the market. It uses a pretty cool 360 degree rotating piston, so as the piston is rotating it is both picking up and placing a rhinestone. Also, the machine places 300 stones per minute, double what CAMS or Decor place. CAMS will try to fool you and say they have one that places 600 a minute, but it is a multi head machine, so it is very large, and the 600 spm is a total, each individual head only puts out 150 spm. Plus the Salli HS300 places the stones much closer together so there is not so much of the space showing between the stones. Personally, i think when all that space is shown in between it makes the t-shirt look cheap. I'd recommend going with the Salli HS300


Hi WinnyJay. After reviewing the marketing materials and videos online, this looks like a very impressive machine. Are these your opinions based on ownership or of a Salli HS300 or from their demos and marketing?


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## jasmynn (Sep 16, 2011)

AxiomAmericaLLC said:


> jasmynn,
> 
> We are the official and sole US distributor for the Salli Rhinestone Transfer Machine. Since August of 2013 we have shown the updated model at several shows with zero downtime. The customers we have sold the machine to have been very satisfied with its efficiency and reliability.
> 
> Perhaps you saw a previous dealer showing an older model of the machine? If you would like to take a look at Axiom America running the Salli HS300 Rhinestone Transfer Machine we would be more than happy to schedule a personal demo at ISS Atlantic City (the next time we will have the HS300 at a show).



Hello,

Thanks for your response. Yes, I was very excited about this machine but at the ISS show in Ft. Worth, they could not do a demonstration because the machine was down. So, I did go see one at a distributor in Dallas. Their machine was not working either, so they could not do a demo for me either. I really wanted to see the speed, as I'm in the market for another machine.
The machine they had was the 6 hopper HS300, but I'm not sure what model the sales people in Dallas had. It looked the same, but could have been different. I'm too far away to go to the show in Atlantic City.  

As far as the compressor that most machines use including the old model of the decor, I hate it. It's loud and with the CAMS, you have to get a chiller to keep moisture from getting into the machine and damaging the very expensive solonoids. I've done my research on both CAMS and Décor and there's a lot of users here in the forums that have both so those in the market for a machine, just do your research thoroughly before you make a purchase. Both companies of course had really great things to say about their machine and why it was better. In the end, I was very happy with my purchase and made the right decision for what I needed. If only they (décor) had the vacuum when I purchased the first machine, I would have been ecstatic. I also chose them because at the time the price was better, Décor offers all size hoppers (ss4, s6, ss10-12, ss16 and ss20) included in the price. With the CAMS, I would have had to purchase the additional sizes and they were not cheap! Also, Mesa Distributors threw in the compressor. I would have had to purchase the compressor and a chiller with the CAMS. The third reason was at the time it was easier to. change out the hoppers which was important, since I have a two color machine. And finally, the company was close by, so I went a few times to watch the machine run. The included training was one full day.
As far a service, I did have some compressor issues and the service was great. They came out each time at no charge, even when the problem was because didn't know what the heck I was doing. Once I learned how to keep it in alignment, I haven't had any issues. So, I'm just sharing my experience to help others. 
It would only be fair to share the cons. So, I don't like the customer service number that you have to leave a message for them to call you back, and that they are not open on weekends because if your machine goes down Friday evening, you're down the whole weekend.
I would still love to See that Sally in action. If the speed is what they say, then I may deal with the compressor. I just want to make sure the machine is stable and reliable. We all know what it's like to be down and can't fill orders on time after investing so much money.


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## api (Nov 22, 2009)

As I see, this “compressor vs. vacuum” issue will be evergreen topic here because nobody wants to explain the real reasons *why* the (CAMS and DECOR) engineers chose the particular solutions they chose for their machines.

*Let me offer - a bit more detailed - technical explanation:*

It is a total misconception that one machine “uses compressor”, the other “uses vacuum”. Both machines use vacuum to pick up and hold the stones, only their stone placement system works somewhat differently:

The task is to pick up a stone from the hopper, and move it down to the mylar on the x-y table. For this, both machines use a “swing gun” and a “spin gun”. Both guns pick up and hold the stones with vacuum. The difference between the CAMS and the DÉCOR machines is that the axial linear movement of the guns (when they pick up or place the stones) created by *compressed air at the CAMS* and by *electromagnets (solenoids) at* *the DÉCOR*. This small difference can be negligible or a huge issue. It depends on the actual design and the potential user of the machine. There are advantages and disadvantages of both systems:

*1.) CAMS - **Pneumatic System* (uses *compressed air* for the axial movement of the guns). The big advantage of these systems is their undeniable professionalism. If you have to design a system with millions of repetitive linear movements, the pneumatic solution allows you to really control the movements, “fine tune” the running characteristics. With compressed air, using a double action piston-rod cylinder, you can create a gun which has special “personality”. For example you can adjust the force of the gun, you can have adjustable air cushioning for both movement directions and you can have magnetic position sensors on both ends of the cylinder. The CAMS has all of these and this is a very high quality, top-notch answer for this alternating, linear movement requirement.

*2.) **In comparison, the DÉCOR machine* uses *electromagnets* (solenoids) for the linear movements. It is also an acceptable solution, but the problem is that the force of the electromagnets is NOT constant. Far from it. As the solenoid “closes” the force is getting higher and higher. It is very difficult to create a smooth movement with solenoids. They tend to finish the movement too forcefully which can create vibrations and reliability issues.

*When engineers design a rhinestone placement robot, it is a judgment call for them if they use electro magnets or a pneumatic system.* Both machines will use vacuum for picking up the stones, so some kind of compressor/vacuum pump will be necessary anyway. (The vacuum pump IS a compressor; the only difference is that we use the intake side of the compressor, not the output side.)

The pneumatic system will need a much larger compressor because the guns’ movements will require compressed air. 


*The CAMS engineers’* thought process was the following:

If we can use a compressor, we will be able to create a really professional pneumatic gun system, and we can also create vacuum from the compressed air with a simple vacuum generator (Venturi tube). If we would use an electromagnetic system, we would still need a (smaller) compressor for creating vacuum. Our decision is to use a compressor for everything.
*The DÉCOR engineers’* thought process was the following:

If we would use an electromagnetic gun, we would need a much smaller compressor/vacuum pump and the system would still work correctly. Since the requirement of installing a compressor is a huge concern for the small-business owners, we will avoid this with all costs. Our decision is to use a smaller compressor for vacuum generation and electrical power for the guns.
*My personal opinion* about this topic is the following:

As an engineer, and as an owner of a professional garment decorator company, I don’t mind if I have to install a compressor with a chiller if I can have a first class pneumatic robot for rhinestone placement. Also, I have to use the compressed air for other purposes in our shop (like pneumatic heat press, pretreatment machine, cleaning gun, etc.) so I would need the compressor anyway.

As a small business owner however, I can understand if somebody wants to avoid the hassles and the expenses of the compressor installation. 
Scott (6 years ago) and I (4 years ago) chose the first approach. We both purchased CAMS machines, installed a compressor with a chiller, and we have no problems running our systems since then. *In the last 4 years I used the CAMS on a daily basis and I didn’t have to call the service yet. Not for the CAMS not for the compressor/chiller either.* 

I hope this helps…


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## jnorvesh (Jul 13, 2008)

I envy the few rave reviewers of the CAMS machine. If I can get 3 months of consistent production without calling service, I'm lucky. We've had the 1V-2P CAMS for 3 years and love it when its working, but we're just tired of the ticking time bomb and can't afford any more downtime. Now we're back in the market for a different machine.

Even by supports explanation, the biggest challenge is the air compressor ruining the solenoids (which aren't cheap to replace). We've replaced all of them once and one of them twice. (Yes, we are doing the required maintenance)

We saw the Mesa Decor machines last Fall 2013. The no air compressor / no oil issue was a very effective sales pitch. Unfortunately, we had our sights set on a printer/cutter then.

After reading "opinions" on this debate, I am even more confused. Who can you trust? ISS Orlando is coming up and Mesa wil be there.... to be continiued!


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## api (Nov 22, 2009)

jnorvesh said:


> I envy the few rave reviewers of the CAMS machine. If I can get 3 months of consistent production without calling service, I'm lucky. We've had the 1V-2P CAMS for 3 years and love it when its working, but we're just tired of the ticking time bomb and can't afford any more downtime. Now we're back in the market for a different machine.
> 
> Even by supports explanation, the biggest challenge is *the air compressor ruining the solenoids* (which aren't cheap to replace). We've replaced all of them once and one of them twice. (Yes, we are doing the required maintenance)
> 
> ...


If "*the air compressor ruining the solenoids*" you have to be on the market for a *new air compressor*, not for a new rhinestone machine.

If you fill out the tank of a Mercedes with clam chowder, your car will be in the service all the time. 

The compressed air must be *clean and bone dry.* No oil, no dirt, no water!!! 


If your compressor is in good shape, it won't pump oil into the compressed air system.
If you have good particle filters, you won't have dirt either.
If you have a chiller, it will remove the water from the air flow.
If you feed the solenoids of your CAMS with clean and dry air, there is no reason for frequent problems with the solenoids. (By the way the FESTO solenoids are not THAT expensive; $70 each purchased directly from FESTO.) 

*Check your compressed air system* (or have it checked with a professional company) before you spend a lot of money. Creating clean and dry compressed air is much cheaper than a new rhinestone machine...


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## jnorvesh (Jul 13, 2008)

Holy crap! $70? Paying a lot more than that through you know who. I hate it when I get taken advantage of.

I also bought the air compressor through the same dealer knowing I was probably getting screwed on the price but I figured they might blame any issues on a compressor that I bought on my own.

So, which air compressor would you recommend then? If I had the same service record as you I would be praising this machine everyday.


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## ifusion (Jun 3, 2011)

jnorvesh said:


> Holy crap! $70? Paying a lot more than that through you know who. I hate it when I get taken advantage of.
> 
> I also bought the air compressor through the same dealer knowing I was probably getting screwed on the price but I figured they might blame any issues on a compressor that I bought on my own.
> 
> So, which air compressor would you recommend then? If I had the same service record as you I would be praising this machine everyday.


I have this compressor from home depot:
Husky 30-Gal. Cast Iron Portable Electric Air Compressor-VT6315 at The Home Depot

I've been running it for about 3 years. It works and gets the job done, but my next compressor may have a bigger tank so the engine doesnt run as much. Its about 6 minutes on, 3-4 minutes off.

I have about 25 Feet of tubing between my compressor and my machine. 

I have 3 filters in line
(1) Industrial Air Filter Regulator
(2) 3/8" Desiccant Dryer with Oil Removal Filter

Plus the one on the back of the cams machine.

I had bought a chiller from harbour freight but it crashed and havent had the time to troubleshoot it. I'm getting clean/dry air to the cams.

I watched a few youtube videos to see what people do for getting dry air. I run tubes where most run pvc piping and run things at 45 degree angles to use gravity to help.

Coldesi does have a markup on their products BUT they have great customer service when you have any issues and don't charge for support. Its a business, and they have to make money some how. I do buy some of my parts directly from festo, but also buy them from coldesi when in a jam.

My daily routine is to drain the compressor daily.. take about 30 seconds and then to drain the filters, takes another 30 seconds.


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## api (Nov 22, 2009)

As I see *ifusion* gave you excellent recommendations. I would add that you must have a chiller (if you don't have one). *The moisture in the compressed air is the worst enemy of the solenoids.*

We have a Hydrovane compressor, installed outdoor and a chiller placed indoor. This system is quiet and professional. We use it since 2010 without any problem what so ever...


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## api (Nov 22, 2009)

I forgot: If you buy a chiller, buy Ingersoll Rand.

http://www.ingersollrandproducts.com/air/catalogs/Non-Cycling Refrig Brochure for 60 Hz_US.pdf 

They are good and reliable...

Something like this: 

Ingersoll Rand D25IN Air Dryer: bigboysgaragetoys.com


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## jnorvesh (Jul 13, 2008)

Thanks. And yes, we do have a chiller. We bought it all from Coldesi. So I wonder if that's a piece of crap too.

(off topic)
Support should always be free! Don't get me started on how everything is subscription based now. It's just weird how much more expensive their parts and even rhinestones are. It's almost as if they are buying it at retail pricing and marking it up again.

Back on topic.....
I can actually see the oil moving through the tubing. It's a mess. So I haven't gotten an answer yet to what may be causing that. Compressor/Chiller or something else I'm missing.


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## api (Nov 22, 2009)

Off topic: I have very good experience with ColDesi. They are very knowledgeable and nice people. Call Allen! He is very helpful, and knows all the details of the CAMS machines. 

On topic: *If you see oil moving trough the tubing, you are killing your CAMS with it!* It is the exact case of putting clam chowder into your Mercedes! 

I am 99% sure that the oil is coming from your compressor. You MUST STOP THAT! Probably it is a worn out piece of equipment. Every compressor which has oil in it - if it is getting old - starts to let the oil into the compressed air. Up to a certain limit the oil filter can catch it, but if it is too much, it goes into the CAMS machine and contaminate the solenoids. The solenoids are very fast-moving air valves. They cannot survive if you push oil, dirt or water through them.

It seems to me that the oil contamination is the cause of your troubles. The CAMS has nothing to do with it.

The solution: Replace your worn out compressor. If you don't know how to do it, please call a professional company and at least ask some questions. 

Unless you create oil free, dust free, moisture free compressed air, you WILL have problems with any pneumatic system in your shop.


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## jnorvesh (Jul 13, 2008)

Just to be clear, I am not complaining about the support I get from Coldesi. I am just frustrated with the constant service calls I have to make.

Yes, the conclusion is I have to replace my air compressor which is only 3 years old and gets emptied every couple of days. 

Which brings us back to the original question.... if the air compressor is the only culprit, then a rhinestone machine that doesn't require an air compressor should be the better choice, right? Or at least easier to maintain?

I was hoping to hear from an owner of the non-compressor version just to get a different perspective.


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