# Fibrillation: A reason to return product?



## MBrhythm (Mar 1, 2007)

I'm hoping that the printers that have dealt with customers and their complaints could help me.

My question: Is fibrillation a reason to return product?

About Fibrillation:U.S. Screen Print & Inkjet Technology | The Facts About Fibrillation

I printed some shirts. The customer complained after washing the shirts look faded. (I haven't seen them yet. Will visit him today) Sounds like "Fibrillation". He is unhappy about the shirts and wants a refund on his order. I have tried to get a reprint order but think its unlikely. What do you guys think?


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## HelpRunMyShop (May 28, 2008)

Great post, I would say if the customer is a repeat customer meaning they will be back if you can fix the problem maybe. If they are just being unreasonable then you could just say it is what it is give them a refund or not. i would love to here what the shirts look like.


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## JeridHill (Feb 8, 2006)

Fibrillation can happen when printing with plastisol inks using high mesh screens. It can also happen with waterbase inks. What was your printing method?


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## MBrhythm (Mar 1, 2007)

JeridHill said:


> Fibrillation can happen when printing with plastisol inks using high mesh screens. It can also happen with waterbase inks. What was your printing method?


Plastisol inks. (union) through 110 mesh, manual press. (HIX).
2 color job. Pink/ flask/ black/ cure. White shirts.

Pics soon!


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## wormil (Jan 7, 2008)

Wow! Through 110 mesh? Those are porcupine shirts.


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## studog79 (Jul 13, 2006)

If they are faded sounds like the ink wasn't cured especially if its after washing.


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## MBrhythm (Mar 1, 2007)

studog79 said:


> If they are faded sounds like the ink wasn't cured especially if its after washing.


Please check this post. Its related to this problem.

http://www.t-shirtforums.com/screen-printing/t67079.html


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## JeridHill (Feb 8, 2006)

studog79 said:


> If they are faded sounds like the ink wasn't cured especially if its after washing.


yeah I agree, if you used 110 there would have been plenty of coverage, the shirts were most likely not cured properly. The ink would be thick enough that no fibrillation can take place.


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## MBrhythm (Mar 1, 2007)

JeridHill said:


> yeah I agree, if you used 110 there would have been plenty of coverage, the shirts were most likely not cured properly. The ink would be thick enough that no fibrillation can take place.


Please read this post:
http://www.t-shirtforums.com/screen-printing/t67079.html


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## JeridHill (Feb 8, 2006)

MBrhythm said:


> Please read this post:
> http://www.t-shirtforums.com/screen-printing/t67079.html


I'm not big on pointing out forum policies and rules, but when you have the same conversation on 2 separate threads, it just gets confusing. I had no idea the other thread existed.

Fibrillation was a possible problem, but I will tell you from experience, you are almost certain to not have a fibrillation problem through a 110 mesh.

After reading that post, my guess is you may have overcured it. You can also have a wash out problem with cracking and so forth when you over cure the ink.

The moment your shirt reaches 325 F, the shirt is cured. Yes, I know you need to cure the ink all the way through, but that is typically done with white ink, not various colors. If you use white ink then yes, 340-345 F would be fine.

If you start getting as high as what the other thread was saying, your plasticizers begin to break down and you lose the elasticity and cracking can happen very easily.

If you get the shirts back, take pictures and post them, it will give us a better idea of what is happening. I have a very hard time believing it would be fibrillation due to the 110 mesh.

One other thought, you mentioned print flash print, I'm not sure why you would do this on a white shirt. Typically, it's better to have no colors overprinting, but instead have the colors barely touching. This gets rid of the flash. Also, when flashing, you only need to heat it until the ink is no longer wet. Typically around 200-225F will flash the ink. If you are reaching the 325, then you are curing the flash and anything printed on top won't bond properly. The colors could fade on the top, but not the bottom.


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## JeridHill (Feb 8, 2006)

Also, in the other post, you said you washed the shirts and you could see fibrillation, are you saying you can see fibers of the shirt through the ink?


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## MBrhythm (Mar 1, 2007)

JeridHill said:


> I'm not big on pointing out forum policies and rules, but when you have the same conversation on 2 separate threads, it just gets confusing. I had no idea the other thread existed.
> .


I understand. Thats part of the reason why I started a new thread. The first thread was about ink and curing. It started to turn so I started this thread.
But thanks for telling me about policies I didn't realize.


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## MBrhythm (Mar 1, 2007)

JeridHill said:


> Also, in the other post, you said you washed the shirts and you could see fibrillation, are you saying you can see fibers of the shirt through the ink?


Yes. It looks like there is "peach fuzz" on _ONLY_ the black ink.


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## MBrhythm (Mar 1, 2007)

JeridHill said:


> One other thought, you mentioned print flash print, I'm not sure why you would do this on a white shirt. Typically, it's better to have no colors overprinting, but instead have the colors barely touching. This gets rid of the flash. Also, when flashing, you only need to heat it until the ink is no longer wet. Typically around 200-225F will flash the ink. If you are reaching the 325, then you are curing the flash and anything printed on top won't bond properly. The colors could fade on the top, but not the bottom.


I did a few shirts wet on wet. But I was getting ink build-up on the bottom of the screen. It started to leave a texture on the pink ink. So I went with flashing the reduce the ink build-up. I had the print but registered with .5 pixel trap. There was no over lapping.


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## JeridHill (Feb 8, 2006)

Very strange.... I can only think of you maybe aren't laying enough ink down on the pass. With a 110 screen the ink should be thick enough that this isn't even an issue. You could try flood stroking then printing. Pull the squeegee over the image and build up ink on the image with the screen lifted. Then when you print, the ink has been filled in the screen. Make sure you have a firm even grip on your squeegee. This will get you a better print.

As for the build up on the bottom of the screens, this will happen with a looser screen. If your screens are tight, you don't get the build.


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## MBrhythm (Mar 1, 2007)

Thanks. I have read so much on this forum. I try to do everything that people tell. (within reason) 

But, if it is fibrillation and customer is not happy with print should I return his money? 
What about screen set-up? Refund that, too?


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## TshirtGuru (Jul 9, 2008)

MBrhythm said:


> Thanks. I have read so much on this forum. I try to do everything that people tell. (within reason)
> 
> But, if it is fibrillation and customer is not happy with print should I return his money?
> What about screen set-up? Refund that, too?


Did the customer want thick ink? Nowadays everyone seems to want "softer" ink. If you notice something about customers paying for custom shirts, is that they want everything to be PERFECT. Guess what? Nothing is PERFECT!!!! 

All most shirts from the mall have fibrillation after washing and drying. Now if the customer came to you first and already told you he didn't want fibrillation and that it was a concern, and that he also didn't mind thick ink, then maybe refund him, but if he didn't tell you any of that, I wouldn't refund him. 

Customers need to learn how to communicate with their printer, and tell the printers what they really want! Or perhaps its the printers who should ask. Anyhow, for all you know, you could have printed thicker ink on the shirts to avoid fibrillation, but he could of hated the thick ink!

EDIT: Wait, I just read your other post, and it says you found that ink was bleeding..........and fading.....that doesn't mean fibrillation. That means undercured ink.


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## MBrhythm (Mar 1, 2007)

I haven't seen the shirts yet. I meet with him in about an hour. After the first call, I went back and printed a shirt to see if there were any problems. Printed and cured the same way. (with the flash for 35secs.) Washed the shirt after in cooled down a bit. Came out fine. (With very little fibrillation)


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## MBrhythm (Mar 1, 2007)

If I refund his money, should I also refund the screen set-up?


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## MBrhythm (Mar 1, 2007)

I said I would put up some pictures.
Here they are.
The first pic. is of an unwashed shirts and a washed shirt.


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## wormil (Jan 7, 2008)

What ink is that? Looks a little light for 110 mesh.


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## MBrhythm (Mar 1, 2007)

wormil said:


> What ink is that? Looks a little light for 110 mesh.


union ink.


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## TshirtGuru (Jul 9, 2008)

MBrhythm said:


> I said I would put up some pictures.
> Here they are.
> The first pic. is of an unwashed shirts and a washed shirt.


Well, does he want thick bullet proof ink? If not, that is what he gets...If he wants thick ink, print it thick (I am almost certain he won't be happy with thick ink as well). Sorry to say, it's really one way or the other unless you use dye discharge.


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## perrolocodesigns (Oct 24, 2006)

Are you using ringspun cotton shirts? They are the worst for fibrillation. All of those little loose strands of cotton that make the shirt so soft will often poke back through the ink. Everything in life is a tradeoff...right?


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## azoton (May 9, 2007)

Haven't tuned in to this site in awhile.... I've had similar experiences with Union Ink specifically UltraSoft Red and Black - I actually switched to the MIXO Black you used for this job because I couldn't solve the fibrillation problem with the UltraSoft. MIXO has worked well though...

But your question is about your customer and how to deal with it. Without knowing all the details of how you do business it's near impossible for someone to give you any advice that means anything.

I had an "impossible" customer recently that went through all the normal hoops I make customers jump through to ensure everyone is on the same page when we sign the agreement to do the job. 

Short of the long is they decided the print quality wasn't what they wanted and after some discussion decided they wanted a full refund. I wrote them a check but it was less than full - I took payment for setup and materials (less the shirts of course) and returned the rest. While they were certainly not happy with the amount they didn't argue much as it was also part of the agreement they signed.

Good luck.


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## jeffie (Jan 30, 2008)

Hey, posted the other day on how WE solve frib.. problem, your pics are not clear enough imho.Me thinks that overcure isnot the problem here...(shirt generly scorches before this)...We like finer mesh screens cause I feel that the shirt fibers are pulled thru the mesh, to some extent, when the screen is lifted; causing frib...back to your issues, most likely under cure... stretch the print, should stretch oh I dont know at least 2x before cracking the ink...get some of those "temp strips" they have different areas that blacken at diff temps...that give a better idea of temp reached than "spot gun"....In our world customer is always right offer to reprint let him keep all but two TEST those two and find out what went wrong....The measure of a company is almost always how you handle your probs...jeff


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## wormil (Jan 7, 2008)

jeffie said:


> The measure of a company is almost always how you handle your probs...jeff


I couldn't agree more.


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