# printing on dark shirts



## supersucker (Dec 19, 2006)

before i invest money in a heat transfer press i need some solid advice on whether or not i can get close to screen printing quality on dark shirts using opaque tranfers or plastisol. if i'm just going to be banging my head against the wall i'd rather not waste the time. and what's the deal with printing white on black shirts? is it possible? help!


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## Rodney (Nov 3, 2004)

> i can get close to screen printing quality on dark shirts using opaque tranfers or plastisol.


Yes you can with plastisol transfers (since it is basically screen printing, just on transfer release paper).

Plastisol transfers aren't printed from your computer though, they have to be outsourced to a screen printer that specializes in plastisol transfers.

Custom Plastisol Transfer printers:
http://www.t-shirtforums.com/showthread.php?t=4095


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## Fluid (Jun 20, 2005)

What Rodney said 



> what's the deal with printing white on black shirts? is it possible? help!


If you mean traditional screen printing, well , um , yes.  We do it every day 

Use a god opaque white - Wilflex Bear White is a good one
low mesh frame (not lot of detail) 110-156
Good Flood and Smooth Print
********FLASH********
Good Flood and Smooth Print


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## Solmu (Aug 15, 2005)

supersucker said:


> before i invest money in a heat transfer press i need some solid advice on whether or not i can get close to screen printing quality on dark shirts using opaque tranfers or plastisol.


The first no, the second yes.


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## supersucker (Dec 19, 2006)

thanks, rodney. since you are a certified t-shirt junkie, let me ask you this. 
would you buy a shirt that was made with a heat press and not screen printed?


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## Rodney (Nov 3, 2004)

> would you buy a shirt that was made with a heat press and not screen printed?


Yes, I have many times  

The method to decorate it doesn't matter to me as much as the end product being of high quality.

I've seen (and bought) crappy screen printed shirts and I've seen (and bought) amazing screen printed shirts. 

I've seen (and bought) crappy heat pressed shirts and I've seen (and bought) heat pressed shirts that made me go "wow".

I've seen (and bought) direct to garment printed shirts that I wouldn't give away to my worse enemy, and I've seen some really nice direct to garment printed shirts.

I don't care how you do it, just get me a cool, quality printed shirt


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## supersucker (Dec 19, 2006)

that's exactly the answer i needed to hear. thanks a lot rodney.


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## Solmu (Aug 15, 2005)

supersucker said:


> that's exactly the answer i needed to hear.


Don't confuse the answer you *wanted* to hear for the answer you *needed* to hear.

Some customers will agree with Rodney, many won't.


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## Rodney (Nov 3, 2004)

> Some customers will agree with Rodney, many won't.


Or this could also read, many customers will agree with Rodney and many won't 

There are definitely people out there that wouldn't want a "heat pressed" shirt for whatever reasons or past stigmas, but there are also people out there that just don't care. I *think* that there's enough of the "don't care" people out there that it makes for a viable business opportunity. 

It helps to know your market though. If you are selling shirts to people who expect screen printing, then that might sway your decision.


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## Solmu (Aug 15, 2005)

Rodney said:


> Or this could also read, many customers will agree with Rodney and many won't


Sorry, you're right.



Rodney said:


> I *think* that there's enough of the "don't care" people out there that it makes for a viable business opportunity.


There are, but I think that depends on what business opportunity you're seeking.


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## supersucker (Dec 19, 2006)

*Re: quality issues*

thanks for the input, solmu. i hear what you're saying. the business i'm starting doesn't involve high-end fashion tees but as an artist i am a stickler for detail and quality. the decision to go with the heat press was actually inspired by the poor quality i experienced with various screen printing shops in town. i was told (by a screen printer) that the look i was searching for was done by heat press. it's possible he may have just been trying to get rid of me because i was becoming quite frustrated. the bottom line is i have no screen printing experience and not only is the equipment more expensive, but the learning curve is much greater. i would still like to keep my night job so the time it takes to set up and print small runs of different shirts has to be realistic and managable. if you guys have any thoughts or suggestions on the subject, i'm all ears. all of your input has been invaluable so far - thanks.


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## Solmu (Aug 15, 2005)

*Re: quality issues*



supersucker said:


> if you guys have any thoughts or suggestions on the subject, i'm all ears.


I think everything you're saying is reasonable; I just don't want to see people going into things with their eyes closed so to speak (which I'm not suggesting you are). Transfer printing will lose you some customers, but it opens up all kinds of doors that wouldn't otherwise be available to you (which obviously means more customers of a different kind). It's just a matter of finding the balance, depending on the type of business you're running (some businesses don't actually need a lot of options for example). Obviously you want/need the options transfers bring, so the trade off is worthwhile.


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## Fluid (Jun 20, 2005)

> I think everything you're saying is reasonable; I just don't want to see people going into things with their eyes closed so to speak (which I'm not suggesting you are). Transfer printing will lose you some customers, but it opens up all kinds of doors that wouldn't otherwise be available to you (which obviously means more customers of a different kind). It's just a matter of finding the balance, depending on the type of business you're running (some businesses don't actually need a lot of options for example). Obviously you want/need the options transfers bring, so the trade off is worthwhile.


I agree 100%.


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## JoshEllsworth (Dec 14, 2005)

> Transfer printing will lose you some customers, but it opens up all kinds of doors that wouldn't otherwise be available to you (which obviously means more customers of a different kind).


I don't think that transfer printing will lose you customers. If you offer the "right" type of tested technology you'll be able deliver a very high quality, durable product.


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## T-BOT (Jul 24, 2006)

JoshEllsworth said:


> I don't think that transfer printing will lose you customers. If you offer the "right" type of tested technology you'll be able deliver a very high quality, durable product.


it has been hard over the years educating people that Heat Transfers ARE high quality. Just because the litho-transfers from the 70's were some what lower quality than screen print. This general consummer mentality has been a hard up hill road for transfer makers. 

Even today, when you tell peeps, Yep there are Hot peel transfer that work everytime and are superstretch high quality, you still get a lot of.....


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## Rodney (Nov 3, 2004)

> I don't think that transfer printing will lose you customers.


I think Lewis is talking about those customers that are just prejudiced against transfers in general.

Kind of like some people just don't like PayPal, even though it's a viable payment option that has works for 1000's of people over the years, they just don't trust them for their own reasons (bad experience, horror stories, etc).

Even by choosing screenprinting, you will lose some customers (that just don't like screen printing for whatever reasons).

You just have to focus on YOUR customerbase, since you can't please everyone


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## Fluid (Jun 20, 2005)

> it has been hard over the years educating people that Heat Transfers ARE high quality. Just because the litho-transfers from the 70's were some what lower quality than screen print. This general consummer mentality has been a hard up hill road for transfer makers.
> 
> Even today, when you tell peeps, Yep there are Hot peel transfer that work everytime and are superstretch high quality, you still get a lot of.....


Unfortunately this is very true. I myself have felt this way as well, even knowing transfers have come quite a long way. Im trying to educate myself and learn the ropes so I can add this service. I have turned away too many orders that I could have used some sort of transfer to complete the orders and still make some money.


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## Solmu (Aug 15, 2005)

Rodney said:


> I think Lewis is talking about those customers that are just prejudiced against transfers in general.


Basically, yes.

On balance you might end up with more customers for other reasons, but they won't necessarily be the same customers  (i.e. Customer A just won't buy a transferred product under any circumstances - it's a lost sale, Customer B just wants whatever gets the job done (easy sale with whatever you have), Customer C wasn't initially interested, but when they realised that you could add the name of each employee to their uniform they got interested (sale gained through heat transfer flexibility)) - if you get more Customer Cs than As you'll make more money).


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## MotoskinGraphix (Apr 28, 2006)

I think once you have actually sampled the awesome selection of quality transfers that are available, ease of use and the pro results they achieve you wouldnt think twice about it. My job in this business is to educate the customer as well as meet thier needs with a quality product. I had my doubts at first but now am blown away by how very good transfers actually are. I dont even worry about the word transfer...it means profits for our business and a quality product for our customers...they are that good.


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## Stretchymantis (Jan 5, 2007)

MotoskinGraphix said:


> I think once you have actually sampled the awesome selection of quality transfers that are available, ease of use and the pro results they achieve you wouldnt think twice about it. My job in this business is to educate the customer as well as meet thier needs with a quality product. I had my doubts at first but now am blown away by how very good transfers actually are. I dont even worry about the word transfer...it means profits for our business and a quality product for our customers...they are that good.


Motoskin, I checked out your site and am impressed with the graphics. I'm soaking up this forum about Heat Transfers, so I've got a question. When you do your heavy graphics that have fading towards the edges and put it on a black Tee, is it a plastisol transfer?

It's the only way I can see the fading being achieved. From what I've read, an opaque transfer couldn't pull that off unless the rest of the transfer was also black (but noticeable from the rest of the black shirt).

I'm tired and hope that made sense. Thanks!


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## Mark Wisniewski (Jan 5, 2007)

supersucker said:


> before i invest money in a heat transfer press i need some solid advice on whether or not i can get close to screen printing quality on dark shirts using opaque tranfers or plastisol. if i'm just going to be banging my head against the wall i'd rather not waste the time. and what's the deal with printing white on black shirts? is it possible? help!


 Buying a heat press along with a vinyl cutter can give you a close comparison if you ask me. You can use multiple layers of vinyl to build your colors if you just get a cutter. If you wanted to get really into it a cutter/printer is the answer. I bought the Roland GX 24 and love it. It also expanded my business because I can do window transfers as well. Let me know if you want to discuss how we use the cutter press combo and how efficient it is to work with.


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## Stretchymantis (Jan 5, 2007)

Mark, that would be great. I've googled the web about vinyl & cutters with minimal results. This is what I am getting (which may or may not be correct):
* Vinyl is thin and gives a soft hand.
* Vinyl cutters actually do the printing also, and allow 1 - 2 colors.
* Vinyl cutters (depending on the model) cut out the entire design for you.
* If vinyl cutting text, it will cut each letter individually which is great for avoiding having to have an oversized white background on dark shirts and using opaque transfers, but peeling each letter can be tedious.
* Vinyl costs more

Am I on the right track, or have I derailed entirely? 

Thanks!


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## Rodney (Nov 3, 2004)

> Mark, that would be great. I've googled the web about vinyl & cutters with minimal results. This is what I am getting (which may or may not be correct):
> * Vinyl is thin and gives a soft hand.
> * Vinyl cutters actually do the printing also, and allow 1 - 2 colors.
> * Vinyl cutters (depending on the model) cut out the entire design for you.
> ...


By the way, if you don't get the answers deep in this thread, feel free to start a new thread in the Vinyl Cutters section of this forum. We have lots of experienced members here who would be happy to chime in (although they may not see your great question in this thread)


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## Twinge (Apr 26, 2005)

Stretchymantis said:


> Mark, that would be great. I've googled the web about vinyl & cutters with minimal results. This is what I am getting (which may or may not be correct):
> * Vinyl is thin and gives a soft hand.
> * Vinyl cutters actually do the printing also, and allow 1 - 2 colors.
> * Vinyl cutters (depending on the model) cut out the entire design for you.
> ...



Kind of hit and miss on accuracy.

Vinyl gives a soft hand, but usually isn't as good for big blocks of design - a solid chunk of vinyl will have some hand to it just because there's so much of it.

Vinyl Cutters don't usually do any actual printing to my knowledge. Basically, you send a vector design from a computer to the vinyl cutter, and it then cuts out your design from a solid chunk of single-color vinyl. You can then layer a fiew different colors if needed, but it is usually suggested that you don't use mroe than 2-3.

Cutters will always cut out the whole vinyl design, BUT you have to manually weed away the excess material. They can also cut out opaque transfers that have been printed with registration marks IF the cutter has an optical eye installed. (Normal transfers _can_ be cut, but require the application of an additional mylar backing because it has to be two-layer.)

I was afraid of this originally as well, but items cut from a vinyl cutter do NOT seperate -- they are all attached with a mylar backing material. This means that if you use a vinyl cutter to cut out a big block of text, you can then apply that same big block of text straight to the shirt with a press; everything will stay aligned for you automatically. This may have been confusing since some companies do sell pre-cut vinyl letters, which have to be lined up manually (but mean that you don't need your own press).

I'm not certain on prices. Vinyl probably costs a _little_ more, but the cost difference shouldn't be that high. It's still relatively cheap to use, and is the only option that really lets you do quality custom (small runs) on dark garments.


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## Stretchymantis (Jan 5, 2007)

Thanks T-Bot, that clears a lot up. So it sounds like the vinyl is semi-transparent since you're sometimes using multiple layers? A vinyl cutter sounds best for white text on opaque shirts in my case.

It's funny how when the idea of 'I wanna make shirts!' begins, it's just that simple. Now I'm learning about the various avenues that are possible and that there is no 'one' perfect system.


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## Jasonda (Aug 16, 2006)

Stretchymantis said:


> Thanks T-Bot, that clears a lot up. So it sounds like the vinyl is semi-transparent since you're sometimes using multiple layers? A vinyl cutter sounds best for white text on opaque shirts in my case.


All the vinyl I've seen is pretty opaque. You might check out these threads to get a better idea of the process:

http://www.t-shirtforums.com/t-shirt-crossover-diary-heat-press-newbie/t10363.html

http://www.t-shirtforums.com/t-shirt-articles/t9893.html


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## chriscass (Dec 26, 2006)

Hello and welcome!!Here's some newbie input... It was mentioned previously, but you really should identify the market that you are trying to cater to. We started our doing shirts mid-Dec 06. We started with a Epson c88 and a heatpress.. We recently invested in a craft robo and have quickly outgrown it in this small amount of time.. Truthfully, we purchased a craft robo because we were being economical since we didn't want to invest a whole lot of money in a vinyl cutter when we had no idea what to do with it. Well, we are now looking for a vinyl cutter and plan on keeping the craft robo to work on smaller orders. It all boils down to what you customers want and how much time, effort and money you want to invest to product a quality product. The products and techniques that we've picked up from this forum have assisted us greatly with producing a good product. I hope this helps.... Best Wishes!!


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## Twinge (Apr 26, 2005)

Stretchymantis said:


> Thanks _T-Bot_, that clears a lot up. So it sounds like the vinyl is semi-transparent since you're sometimes using multiple layers? A vinyl cutter sounds best for white text on opaque shirts in my case.



<--- Not T-BOT 

Anyway, no, vinyl is generally opaque. To do multiple layers, you can either overlap them (which may be a bit thicker in the overlap area; not recommended for more than 3 colors), or you can simply cut out each color exactly as it needs to be, so there doesn't need to be any overlap at all (but then you do need to worry about lining it up perfectly, and the possibility of a hairline gap).


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## MotoskinGraphix (Apr 28, 2006)

Stretchymantis said:


> Motoskin, I checked out your site and am impressed with the graphics. I'm soaking up this forum about Heat Transfers, so I've got a question. When you do your heavy graphics that have fading towards the edges and put it on a black Tee, is it a plastisol transfer?
> 
> It's the only way I can see the fading being achieved. From what I've read, an opaque transfer couldn't pull that off unless the rest of the transfer was also black (but noticeable from the rest of the black shirt).
> 
> I'm tired and hope that made sense. Thanks!


All the shirt graphics on our website are hot-peel/split plastisol transfers. Any fading of any color or from one color to the next or fade to a black shirt is acheived with halftones just as in screen printing (basically the same thing). 
You cant acheive a fade with vinyl unless you design an element into the design to approximate it such as a cross hatch or disintegration of an edge. Remember anything you create is going to need to be weeded so the simpler the better. A fade with vinyl only simulates what is possible with halftones in screen printing or transfer production.

For lettering on dark shirts Vinyl is awesome.


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