# Flexi-Jet



## rjausburn (Nov 17, 2007)

Going to the Flexi distributor Monday after DTG rep, anyone using a Flexi? Can you share the Good the Bad or the Ugly?


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## odgraphics (Sep 10, 2006)

All Epson Based machines pretty much print the same


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## rjausburn (Nov 17, 2007)

odgraphics said:


> All Epson Based machines pretty much print the same


WOW, thats alot of information. Maybe I was thinking service from flexi, and other features, but thank anyway.


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## sunnydayz (Jun 22, 2007)

A really good place to get info is in the the other threads in this part of the forum. If you look for comparison threads they will give you alot of info on what to look for when choosing a machine. If you look up past threads that I posted in back in july and august you will find alot of the info I posted when I was researching other machines and my learning process once I got my machine. There is alot of really helpful info in these threads if you go back and read them. Hope this helps


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## TahoeTomahawk (Apr 12, 2006)

odgraphics said:


> All Epson Based machines pretty much print the same


Not true, the inks, software and operators make a difference.
We have very different prints since we switched from R&H Inks and also moved to the Rip Pro software from iProof.


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## rjausburn (Nov 17, 2007)

Thinks again Bobbie I'll look that up. Adam, did that rip softwear come with the printer?


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## sunnydayz (Jun 22, 2007)

I use the hm1 and it came with my printer, I think most would include it but I could be wrong


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## odgraphics (Sep 10, 2006)

I understand that but eventually and inevitably they are all the same and all have the same problems cause they are converted machines. They are all unique in the sense they do want they do but anything custom has more maintenance issue than an OEM product USUALLY and definitely in this case. Every so often a machine comes along and works pretty well but I believe they all our questionable machines. I own a Brother and must say confidently it is by far the most reliable machine to date, "my opinion". 

Issues:
1. All Epson machines have the ability to print photographically
2. They all can print black shirts
3. They all need preatment that is like knowing rocket science to apply
successfully.
4. Ink cost as well as error is to high for Dark shirts
5. The success rate for people printing on darks is a fraction compare to 
those not doing. (I Believe Agressively)
6. Whether it's dupont or R&H it dont matter any more cause R&H is 
discontinued and cost the same anyway. 
7. Most people end up saying screw it and stay doing white shirts.
If so then why not buy reliable (Brother)
8. But there are success stories like PinkFreud and I wish I had his
Patients. I know he has issues but also has a a gift to make it happen
as does Justin Walker but are you them.
9. If done correctly they all wash good. 
10. Last though I believe their machines have a bad rap, U.S. Screen did
go out of their way for me and Equipmentzone too. As for Flexi I went
there and within 5 minutes got into it with Ben. Why I have know idea, 
but he was very rude to me after driving 6hours to see their machine. 

P.S. Don't shop by price nor most sold. If you insist on black shirt machine
try Kornit, Anajet, Sawgrass, iDot by M&R, (I can go on) or for just
lights Brother won't let you down.


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## TahoeTomahawk (Apr 12, 2006)

What I was disagreeing with was this:


odgraphics said:


> All Epson Based machines pretty much print the same


And for T-shirt printing, that's not true. 
Take for instance the Epson based machines by DTG Digital using the Rip Pro software with iProof.
The Kiosk is based on the Epson 2200, has 3 white ink channels and can print a max color resolution of 720.
The HM1 has 4 white ink channels (which are also thicker than the Kiosk) and can print at a max color res of 1440.
The Eclipse has 2 print heads each with 8 channels, an entire head printing white ink, a second head configured either for dual CMYK or CMYK + WWWW.

That alone will give you an example of how 3 Epson based machines will NOT produce the same print, if that's what you meant.

If you're talking application of the print, then yes I agree however the only printer I think is *somewhat* different is the Kornit which applies the pre-treatment for you.
All other machines either require a pre-treat or do not print white at all.


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## odgraphics (Sep 10, 2006)

Analogy if I may. 

If you want to go 150mph you can spend all the money to build a formula racecar out of a Honda Civic and spend all the time and maintenance with it to keep it going 150. Or you can buy a stock corvette, Mustang, or Ferrari, Benz whatever and go a constant 135mph but have alot less headaches.


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## TahoeTomahawk (Apr 12, 2006)

Like I said in my last post, I thought you were insinuating that all Epson based printers will produce the *same* print, if you were then my argument stands.
I never said the Epson based machines were as cost efficient / easier to use than the Kornit.


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## odgraphics (Sep 10, 2006)

Don't forget the Brother which I believe is more effecient than Kornit Maintenance wise. Though True I'm just yanking your chain a bit. Are you using a T-jet?


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## rjausburn (Nov 17, 2007)

Thanks for the breakdown Adam. The designated white head of the Eclipse a better way to go? I understand that the flexi runs off a 4800 opposed to the one that run off the 1800 and 2200? Does that meke a big difference.


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## odgraphics (Sep 10, 2006)

Yes it does if you consider the variables. I believe it makes for a more solid platform to build on like using a montecarlo for racing than ford focus. But nontheless it still is custom and requires the same approach. Two of the key issues are the particles in the white ink are larger than that of the color and you are trying to force the particles thru the same printhead designed to print thru lets say a thinner ink. And the other is an open air system, which any solvent pprinter tech will agree is not thebest thing to do even if your trying to save money. Remember the ink starts to dry as soon as air hits it and the white even faster. so beside the technical side of things the major issue is the ink.
1. sealed cartridge should help drastically
2. Bigger nozzles in printhead.


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## TahoeTomahawk (Apr 12, 2006)

rjausburn said:


> Thanks for the breakdown Adam. The designated white head of the Eclipse a better way to go? I understand that the flexi runs off a 4800 opposed to the one that run off the 1800 and 2200? Does that meke a big difference.


I think that the print engine and head play a factor for sure, although I've heard both sides of the arguments. Some still consider the 2200 a little better for printing on T-shirts due to the ability to produce a slightly larger droplet size. Someone else with more knowledge would have to weigh in here.

1800, 2200 or 4800 having an entire print head dedicated to white ink really makes a difference in the print. Also, the Eclipse was probably the most professional sturdy looking machines I have seen.

Here is another thread on the Eclipse:
http://www.t-shirtforums.com/direct-garment-dtg-inkjet-printing/t19109.html


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## csquared (Sep 8, 2006)

I feel that any machine (t-jet, flexi, DTG...) not running white ink will be just as reliable as the Brother inkjet printer. So if you are looking to print light shirts and might want to upgrade to print dark shirts I would look into getting a epson based machine with seven/eight color set or a Brother if you do not see yourself wanting to upgrade in the future.


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## sunnydayz (Jun 22, 2007)

csquared said:


> I feel that any machine (t-jet, flexi, DTG...) not running white ink will be just as reliable as the Brother inkjet printer. So if you are looking to print light shirts and might want to upgrade to print dark shirts I would look into getting a epson based machine with seven/eight color set or a Brother if you do not see yourself wanting to upgrade in the future.


I totally agree with this, it is alot cheaper to do it this way and you still have the option of upgrading with white ink later on.


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## Function45 (Apr 19, 2007)

I'm not much of a poster. I read more than anything else. But, this weekend I went to the ISS show. I wanted to share MY OPINION. I took my own design from AI to get it printed on every DTG printer I could. It was a design to be printed on BLACK shirts. These are the ones that I had it printed on: Anajet, FastTjet Blazer, Flexijet, Kornit. except for the Kornit, the other 3(which are all based on some sort of an epson) They all looked pretty good, but FELT like a PLASTISOL Transfer. I have yet to cut them in half and wash them, but i will, to see about longevity and if the feel(hand) changes. The kornit was the only one that felt like screen printing. They all had a show special. Cost ran from 15K for the anajet to 186K for the 2 place kornit. I spoke with each place at length. IMHO, most dtg printers just not ready for primetime, UNLESS your client has to have their shirt right now & you need the latest toy. Each machine HAS to have darks pretreated. This is a big deal. HOW that pretreatment is applied can make a HUGE difference in the print. Even so, it still FELT as tho the ink was sitting on top of the shirt and not really "soaking in" if you know what I mean. Again, except for the kornit. That kornit ink actually felt like it had become bonded with the fibers of the shirt. After I wash these 4 shirts 10 times I will report back on that. Now what about cost. Not of just the machine itself but the ink. This is what I found. The inks for any flexijet type machine run 280-to 300 bucks a liter. The kornit was about half that at 160. If you plan on 1000 shirts a year, not a big deal. If youre thinking 100,000 shirts a year, A HUGE DEAL. As you well know there is a maintenence issue. You have to be willing to spend the time doing it or you will be screwed continually. You will have to learn a RIP program and experiment with the adjustments. Each machine will have it quirks, I saw that in action. This is my bottom line opinion If I had orders of at least 30 retail shirts a day(25.00) I would get the kornit. It is the only one where all you have to do is put the shirt on the machine and it comes out excellent every time. No puddling with the ink. No messing with pretreatment variables. No ink messes. It is considerably bigger than the other machines. They do have a single place machine that does exactly the same thing as the dual place machine at around 100k. I have no affiliation with ANY of the makers. One other thing I can think of is that on light shirts the best print came from a DYESUB. Where they print it on a special transfer paper and then heat press that to the shirt. It had the BEST feel. If you had your eyes closed you would not even be able to tell that anything had been done to the shirt. It was as tho it actually dyed the fibers in the shirt. Sorry to be so long. FWIW.

Sean


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## rjausburn (Nov 17, 2007)

Sean,

Thanks for the reply, I went to SWF today but not to Flexi (had DR appointment and I just ran out of time). I' m still going to make it there very soon.I was really impressed with SWF (Don) The white prints had a t-shirt feel, on the colors you could feel the ink but you are going to get that and more from screenprinting . I really think there is a market for this type of work. I have always felt limited while I was screenprinting (most was me). It truely takes many many years to become a master screenprinter. I delt with RIP while doing screenprinting as well and everyone talks about how much work is in these machines with testing it and cleaning. These people can't have had a running sreenprinting shop. Preping, regerstering, cleaning. Well I still think this is the way that I'm going to go even knowing the work. After 5 yrs in the Army this aint work folks.


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## Belquette (Sep 12, 2005)

Jason,

Sorry we missed you yesterday, you make a very valid point when comparing what's involved with maintenance and clean up for screen printing vs digital printing maintenance. 
Personally I will take the extra 15 minutes at the end of the day with the digital device...thanks.

Ive never screen printed a thing in my life, but from what I know, the process is not much fun and appears quite messy, however I do understand the benefits and limitations of both technologies and where the crossover point is _at this time_.
I feel that the crossover point is on an exponential curve as we "as manufactures" seek to close the gap between screen printing and digital technology's. 
In some respect the analogy could be compared to film and digital photography.
It took many years for the industry to fully embrace, although back before Photoshop existed I was already starting to work on homemade digital capture devices, then within that year some clever manufactures started debuting what I was looking for....then Photoshop was created and came on about twelve 3-1/2 inch floppy discs. The rest is history and now a way of life for most of us.

In the not so distant future digital technologies will surpass screen printing speeds with uncanny results and be much less maintenance..even printing with white ink! This technology will not be limited only to the textile industry but will adapt to many traditional flat screening processes and even one day highly e-regular surfaces...like this inflated football machine we made in 1996. :http://www.belquette.com/images/Belquette_football_printer.wmv

Mark
Belquette Inc


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## odgraphics (Sep 10, 2006)

Has anybody actually weighed ink as to see the true cost?


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## DAGuide (Oct 2, 2006)

I know a couple of people that have weighed ink on their machines - most of which have been using the closed-ink (cartridge) inks. It is really hard to tell what the cost per print is if you are going to include the cost of maintenance as well for each print since you have ink in the lines. Since you have to get ink in the lines to start of with, they weighed the cartridges before and after they got the ink lines. Most of the reports that I have heard is that it took some where around 25 ML of ink to charge the printer (i.e. get ink into the lines and to the printhead) per a cartridge. But, you still get to use this ink. Then, they weigh the cartridges before and after the first print. Most of the time, the ink calculators are pretty close to be accurate. However, the ink calculator is not going to count the maintenance the printer does. So, most of the people that I know multiple the cost from the ink calculator by 1.25 to 1.5 to cover all the maintenance.

Here is the one thing that caught my attention. On average, a head cleaning uses about 4 ML of ink and a nozzle check uses .3 ML of ink for an Epson 4XX0 series (4000, 4800,...maybe the 4880). Thus, if you ink cost you say you buy ink at $275 a Liter in bulk and you do the standard nozzle check --> head cleaning --> nozzle check, that just cost you $1.25 in ink. For closed ink systems, that cost is around $3.75 for ink. Makes you think that the old dye sub saying of "a print a day keeps the head cleans away" should apply to dtg as well. The same cleaning process on SubliJet IQ is over $6.00. This cost can start to add up pretty quickly. So, it might be well worth it to run a print a day and give the shirt away as promotions then have to run head cleanings.

Would like to hear what others have experienced when weighing their cartridges.


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## sunnydayz (Jun 22, 2007)

Just thought I would add this, I print a shirt a day for firefighters and my husband sells them to his buddies at work (since they are all firefighters) , then I dont have any waste as I make the money of the shirt I print. As long as you print a design you know will sell, just do that and now you have a product you can sell instead of giving it away  and it pays for that wasted ink. This is what I do on days I dont have orders to print and it works really well.


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## rjausburn (Nov 17, 2007)

No biggie Mark, Still planning on a trip your way. Bobbie, I was thinking the same way. I'm a cop and my brother-in-law is a fire fighter so I can send a few that way. By the way Bobbie, tell your husband that God created cops to give firefighters heroes. I kid!


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## Gunslinger (Aug 3, 2007)

Exactly, right, Mark ... I print something everyday (helps to do retail, to round out custom/contract work). If I am not printing for a new design that is ready to go, I am testing a new graphic versus shirt color ... and as has been posted on other threads, experiment with non-textiles. You can always find a reason to print a tee.

When I started with the T-Jet 3, the instructions recommended 3-4 head cleanings, at the start and end of the day for maintenance. That is simply not needed, and in fact, wastes ink and does more harm than good (with the exception of clogs, but keeping your inks agitated reduces that). After a head cleaning, you really need to walk away (have a cup of coffee, as was told to me) and let the ink settle in, before printing. I run a single head cleaning, at the start of the day ... if I have a long run, where banding might pop up, I run another and take a break (an excuse to grab a smoke) ... and that is it.


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