# How much to charge for your artwork?



## gubby (Sep 14, 2009)

Hello, my local HS basketball team is playing in the championship game of their state tournament. For tshirts to wear to the game this weekend, I designed a unique image that a local screen printing business wants to sell on a shirt for the game. All I will be doing is supplying the front image (they will be designing the back, with maybe a few ideas from me but no artwork). They will be selling em for $10 each. I know the owner and we've worked it our where she will pay me so much per shirt she sells. With the shirts selling for $10, what would be a fair cut for me? $1? $2? 

The drawing is done and ready to go. Like I said I will not have to mess with any ordering, printing, etc. Also the image is caricatures of all the team members and coaches so I (for lack of better words) got em by the balls so to say...without my image they have no shirt. Any advice on what would be a fair amount to charge per shirt? I know blank white shirts they plan to use will be under $2 each, ink will be pennies per shirt, for the amount they prob will sell screen prep will cost pennies per shirt as well, so thats around $7.50 profit per shirt for them easy. Any suggestions? I was leaning towards asking $1.50 or so. Fair? Thanks


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## MrB541 (Jan 30, 2013)

How much is their time worth to hang around your game to sell the shirts? If you were to go in and buy the shirts I would guess you are looking at about $7-$9 depending on how many you want. What about overstock, who eats those costs. I would say if you could get $20-$30 for your art and that is all you have to do, you should be happy. Other option, if you want the risk and potential greater return is to buy the shirts yourself, set up a booth and sell the shirts. I know if I was doing everything except the front art, I would not be interested in paying you 20% ($2 from a $10 shirt)


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## gubby (Sep 14, 2009)

They plan on selling this week and after game, cant sell during. If they win they could easily sell 2000+ shirts. They do not have an artist on staff who can draw the caricatures so basically without my drawing they have no shirt so u could argue i could b a hard *** and ask for half of all profits. Im not gonna do that but im not gonna charge nothin either. Im thinkn $2, no less than $1.50, is fair. Any other thoughts? Suggestions?


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## AtkinsonConsult (May 2, 2011)

Gubby:

You are absolutely right here. I heard a phrase a long time ago and it's stuck with me all these years, "You never get paid what you are worth, you only get paid what you negotiate."

Start at whatever price you feel is appropriate for your contribution. However, know what your floor level will be too. Negotiation is a dance, and a compromise. 

The t-shirt shop owner may not be able to provide the artwork because he lacks the skills, but please remember a few things:

1. Sure he needs artwork - but does he need you? Are you the only one on the planet that can design? I think not.
2. He's taking all the risk. He deserves the lion's share of the profit. You shouldn't care what he makes at all, as there's a potential that he won't make anything and the venture will lose money.
3. Whatever you do, get it in writing. Draw up a simple contract that states the intentions of both parties.
4. Use this as a stepping stone for future work. Don't be so greedy that you poison the well for the next time.

My advice on what to charge? Whatever is fair to both parties... You should ask him first, and if it's in the ballpark go with it. If you feel you need more, that's fine. Tell him, but be prepared for a no or a counter offer.

Good luck,

-M


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## VTG (Dec 16, 2010)

Gubby, is this basketball design a one time only opportunity for you or is this (graphic design work) something you plan to do as a business or side-business?

In the long run, if you're doing regular graphic design work, you'd probably be better off establishing a rate per hour. Some of the designers we work with charge $60-$75 per hour. A good t-shirt design can run $300-$400 or more just for the artwork.

How long will it (or did it) take you to design the artwork? How much is your time worth? Are they really going to sell 1,000 or more shirts? What if they only sell 100?

The point is, you can structure your deal either way ... as a percentage of actual sales, or as a flat fee (based on your hourly rate). It's really up to you. Crunch a few numbers and see what you come up with ... and what you can live with.

Whatever you decide, be fair, be reasonable, and be prepared to negotiate with the screen printer in a professional business-like manner.

Good luck.


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## gubby (Sep 14, 2009)

Hey M, yea all your points are valid for sure and they have crossed my mind. I definitely don't wanna burn any bridges I just want to get the most out of this unique situation as I can. There are so many variable to this situation that there is no doubt we could both make some really good $. I usually make these kind of shirts at home but with the time frame, possible numbers/demand, etc. having it done "professionally" makes the most sense. I'm also an art teacher (couple of the girls on team I had in class) so I was thinking bout having some of the proceeds go towards our art dept for school side projects. 

VTG, I'd much rather roll the dice with getting paid a percentage of each sell, its small town basketball in southern Indiana, people are nuts (including myself) bout it haha. I cant explain enough how unique the situation is, it's like a blank check, I just need to make sure I dont shoot myself in the foot by asking for too little. 

So whatcha guys/girls think...at the very least I'd like to get a $1 each shirt for me and $0.50 for art dept. I'm thinking starting negotiations out at $2 for me and maybe $.075 for art dept. 

Does this sound legit? Am I starting too low? (future business with them is also an option, dont wanna be a jerk, then again, I'm aware there is nowhere to go but down so what would be a good starting point for a $10 shirt?) This seems fair to me but was curious if anyone else has been in a situation like this. Thanks


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## 20vK (Jul 9, 2011)

if they really can sell 2000 shirts, then at $2 a shirt, $4k seems a bit excessive to pay an artist when they take nearly all the risk.

Let's consider that artwork could cost $40 to $300, depending on the design. YOu want him to get a good deal and you also want to be paid fairly.

You could suggest a tiered a stepping stone agreement. Say $1.50 for the first 100 shirts, then $.075 for any shirts after. 

THis gives an incentive for them to sell shirts, shows that you understand they need to make money but also gives you the lion's share of your fee on the first shirt sales - it's a safer way of getting your market price for artwork, with potential hyper-earnings on the side without them having to pay upfront for artwork. Win-win


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## Riderz Ready (Sep 18, 2008)

Personally unless it was a very well known artist who by their name alone would generate sales I would never give someone a royality. 

It is unfortunate but a fact that people can get designs anywhere - at next to nothing. In cases like this most people are buying the shirt to support the team and not because of the artwork.

Last - it is a little late to be discussing payment for a shirt design that needs to be printed and available in a couple days. For a simple t-shirt design I would pay no more than $50 and that is generous.


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## gubby (Sep 14, 2009)

They arent gonna print up 2000 and then try to sell em, they are gonna take orders so no risk at all. Why does making 4k seems excessive, they will be making 10k+. Look at it from this point of view...I came up with the idea, drew the image, am giving them ideas of how to lay it out, and if they sell 2000+ shirts (at no risk) they would make thousands...and I should only get $50? Or only $300?

Also we dont live in an area where graphic designers are everywhere, even with an online competition, its too late for them to bid out the idea anyway (which I came up with). Now if they came up with idea and they had 3 weeks to mess with it then it would be a different story

Im not a famous artist by any means so no one is buying the shirt just cause I designed it, it wouldnt matter to them if Picasso designed it. Also some of my cut is goin back to my schools art dept, people around here would be more than happy to do that

Why is it too late to discuss payment? Its not like they arent gonna make any money (plus its a small business and I know em, it'll take 5 minutes). I guess Im thinking in small town/personal/cool idea as oppose to cut throat business...whats wrong with me getting around 10% per shirt? We both will make good $


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## Preston (Mar 21, 2006)

gubby said:


> They arent gonna print up 2000 and then try to sell em, they are gonna take orders so no risk at all. Why does making 4k seems excessive, they will be making 10k+. Look at it from this point of view...I came up with the idea, drew the image, am giving them ideas of how to lay it out, and if they sell 2000+ shirts (at no risk) they would make thousands...and I should only get $50? Or only $300?


4k for art royalties is very excessive in this case. You may have them over a barrel this time because of the short time frame but next time they will have art done with the rights to reprint for less than 300 bucks. Typical artist mentality that you want to work once and get paid forever. I am sorry but in the main stream t-shirt world it does not work that way anymore. I am with Riderz on this as you would be luck to get $50.00 for the art from me. For me to pay 4k the art alone would need to generate around 200k worth of sales.

I know you have your mind set on a easy couple of grand so do what you want to do. It may work out for you or you may find yourself on the sideline in the future. You have to remember that the printer has all the expenses in this. Expenses like their time selling, their time printing, their cost of materials, utilities, equipment wear and tear just to name a few. You have no expenses as it is a design you already did. For them to make 10 grand on 2000 shirts selling them at $10.00 while giving you $2.00 they would need to produce the shirts for $3.00 or less all expenses included. Not going to happen. They do all the work, you reap all the easy money. Not..

Just so you know. If they paid $300 for art next year and sell 2000 shirts, their cost for art per shirt would be $0.15 .

Good luck..


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## 20vK (Jul 9, 2011)

If you were spending an hour on artwork and it was a risk to them, then yes $4k seems excessive. Ask anyone!

If it is your idea, then that does change things a bit. So does taking pre-orders.

However, people are always looking at what everyone else gets - Totally the wrong approach. It's what screws up business deals and ruins friendships.

You have to be happy with what you are getting and beleive that their cut is also fair for the amount of work involved.

If it works out, they could just do it alone next year. You don't want that. You WANT them to make a tonne of money and use you again! 

If it all works out - great! Straight away, I would start talking about next year to ensure you get the gig again, rather than a cheap, online artist who will only charge them $40


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## missgrowly (Jul 28, 2010)

IMHO, I would be willing to pay you only for the TIME it took you to design the graphic. I am a printer, and sometimes I can't do the design the client wants b/c of lack of experience in graphic design on my part. However, since I know what goes into all the work AFTER the design is there, which is a LOT of work to prepare.... you'd get the going rate for graphic design. anywhere from $15-$60/hr in my area. Sometimes I even have to work on artwork after a graphic artist b/c they don't know how to do separations, and generally I have to recolor the whole thing. So be careful how you approach this.


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## VTG (Dec 16, 2010)

Hey gub, as I mentioned earlier, you can try to structure your deal either way ... as a percentage of actual sales, or as a flat fee (based on your hourly rate) ... HOWEVER, I think you're starting to see (based on the feedback your getting here) that most printers are not going to be very keen on the idea of paying a percentage (10-20% is excessive).

Again, figure out how long it took you to create the design and multiply it by your (desired) hourly rate. When it comes to screen printing, this is the most common way for designers to charge for their work ... and most screen printers are OK with this approach.

I do wish you luck though.


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## gubby (Sep 14, 2009)

Preston, I appreciate the response but this is a one time thing, I know the owners, we're basically partners I designed layout and they print. Im aware this doesnt work like this in the mainstream tshirt world and they are doing all the printing work but the idea of them being the only one's in town getting to sell these shirts for this special occasion is worth giving me $1.50 or so per shirt. Im (or they) arent worried about my hourly rate, reprint rights (whole new team next year) and Im not gonna do anything to burn any bridges between us. Like I said, $4K sounds crazy for an image, but without it they wouldnt make a cent

Also I print shirts on the side so I know the cost of blank shirts, inks, screens, etc. so I have an idea of cost involved so Im not just some jackoff who can draw and has no idea of the process (I have a feeling many of you are thinking that haha)


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## Preston (Mar 21, 2006)

gubby said:


> Like I said, $4K sounds crazy for an image, but without it they wouldnt make a cent
> 
> Also I print shirts on the side so I know the cost of blank shirts, inks, screens, etc. so I have an idea of cost involved so Im not just some jackoff who can draw and has no idea of the process (I have a feeling many of you are thinking that haha)


So you have them over a barrel you think? Do not pay you a high royalties and they end up with nothing? Well if I was in the situation I would get another artist to draw something up or go to rival art and spend 50 bucks and be done with it. If that shop owner wanted to they could get new art in about 1 day for very little money.

I cannot say what your situation is as a printer nor can I say what the situation is with the printer who wants to make the shirts. But in my situation with 70k worth of equipment to maintain plus all the other overhead I just could not give you very much for the art on a 2000 shirt order. 

You say you know the process and how much it cost to print the shirts I am not going to dispute that but how much does it cost you per hour to run your shop? How much does it cost to replace your equipment? How much does it cost to maintain your equipment? How much do you pay yourself an hour when you are printing? How much does all the incidentals cost you to run your shop? What is your production rate per hour? What is your gross profit margin? I could go on but these are just a few things a lot of people never think about when determining if they are actually making any money or what it really cost them to run their business.


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## missgrowly (Jul 28, 2010)

Preston... I think I need your help to see if I'm actually profiting..  Me personally.. I'm just lil ol me, and I am so busy doing everything that has to be done, i have no clue where my profit/costs are except just in my head, you know?


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## nypdofficer1 (Feb 19, 2012)

I would also wonder how would you ever know how many shirts they really sell. Will you be at the booth with them counting off how many shirts are sold? I'd say, get paid for your work upfront and you can generate more work for the future.


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## Preston (Mar 21, 2006)

missgrowly said:


> Preston... I think I need your help to see if I'm actually profiting..  Me personally.. I'm just lil ol me, and I am so busy doing everything that has to be done, i have no clue where my profit/costs are except just in my head, you know?



Start another thread and we can discuss it.


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## Riderz Ready (Sep 18, 2008)

This guy is simply looking for someone to say "the shop will be thrilled to pay $1.50 royalty" for some basic artwork.

There you have it - now you can go tell the owners you want $1.50 per shirt. Hopefully the door hits his butt on his way out.


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## royster13 (Aug 14, 2007)

Riderz Ready said:


> This guy is simply looking for someone to say "the shop will be thrilled to pay $1.50 royalty" for some basic artwork.
> 
> There you have it - now you can go tell the owners you want $1.50 per shirt. Hopefully the door hits his butt on his way out.


Yep.....99% will give an opinion he disagrees with and 1% will give him an opinion he likes, and he will go with the 1%......


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## jonnyboy (May 18, 2009)

gubby,
As I fellow artist, I have to agree with Everyone's response's. ALL great points and considerations to consider. You should step back and re-think all the viewpoints that were given to you. In my opinion you should just charge for the artwork and ask them to make a donation to the school art dept. (that would be a good selling point for them).
Don't let your ego get in the way of getting & doing future business with them or anyone else. The printer has the most at stake in this venture and you should not devalue all that is involved on their part.

Keep it real, if your looking for recognition, sign the artwork.

ps.....missgrowly & preston, if you get that new thread going, shoot me a pm
Thxs


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## ltwapparel (Feb 8, 2013)

I would throw a match to my shop before I paid anything over 400$ or a single art design. That would be like paying my press man a piece rate, if that was the case it would be around the .05$ range and that's still $45/hr. all I can say is some people have a crazy view of entitlement. That's why we have welfare


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## nypdofficer1 (Feb 19, 2012)

Wow this thread suddenly got super funny. Lighting a match to your shop.......I couldn't stop laughing at that. People around me were asking if I was ok I was laughing so much. Literally lol.


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## ltwapparel (Feb 8, 2013)

Well you will know the back story when you see it on dateline.... (headline) "Graphic designer gets paid 2k for simple design and shop burn"


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## 20vK (Jul 9, 2011)

I do have to say though, if it's your idea and you are friends with the printers - it could be seen by both parties as a nice little deal, in which case the print shop could see him as more than just an artist, but also as an instigator of a good opportunity...and therefor remunerate him appropriately.

However, things do have a funny habit of changing where money is concerned


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## lknprints (Feb 14, 2012)

Guppy

Don't take this the wrong way, but if you think any shop owner in the entire universe (other than your "partner") would pay you $2 a piece as a royalty you've lost it. 

I'm sure you've got a great design, but let's be real. Whatever youre designing I could post 3 images just like it on 99Design and have 50 just like it in 24 hours. Whatever you decide, don't go in like some tough guy because you aren't in a power position. 

Here's what I would do...sell it to the shop owner for a MODERATE fee. Develop a Relationship with him and become his go to guy. 

I've gotten to be good friends with a designer who specializes in anything with a motor. The guy is absolutely brilliant. Since we do alot of racing work I'm able to feed him high end jobs pretty regularly. It's not uncommon for us to send him $500-$750 jobs. I'm not sure what we've referred him in total over the years, but it's in the $10s of thousands.


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## Preston (Mar 21, 2006)

20vK said:


> However, things do have a funny habit of changing where money is concerned


The more money involved, the faster things can go sour.


Listen, I understand the OP's desire to continue to make money from his IP creativity. But you need to be sensible about it. I also know it is a hard thing to move from the idea of getting up to 4k for some art to only getting a hundred bucks or so. 

I do not agree with the work once get paid for life thought pattern that seems to go with IP but who am I. I was in construction for decades and created some very nice looking buildings. I have yet to receive a royalty check from anyone who took pictures of my creations and put them in magazines or newspapers. 

Anyway, back to the topic. The print shop may be perfectly fine with paying the OP 1 or 2 bucks a shirt for royalties but I figure if that was the case then the question would have never been asked here unless it was hoped the answers would say 1 or 2 bucks a shirt was not enough. Then again the print shop may not even have a clue that is way above the norm and if by chance they stumble across this thread then all heck is going to break loose.


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## isanabria79 (May 18, 2012)

I think Gubby is just trolling u guys lol. Really who in their right mind would pay that much for art work. Who ever designed the McDonald's logo gets payed per burger sold in Gubbys world 

Sent from my LG-MS770 using T-Shirt Forums


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