# Dark Shirt Dye Dub?



## sjaguar13 (Jul 19, 2006)

I searched for the forum for info on dark shirts, but the first thread that came up was a year old. Has anything new come out for printing on darker shirts?


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## Solmu (Aug 15, 2005)

Not that I know of. Dye sublimation and dark fabric isn't very compatible - since it's a more internal process it's always going to be fighting against the fabric colour.


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## COEDS (Oct 4, 2006)

You need alight substrate for the ink to show up . I have never heard of dark sublimated garments.


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## sjaguar13 (Jul 19, 2006)

What about this:
Sublimation Paper, dye sublimation paper, sublimation transfer paper


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## COEDS (Oct 4, 2006)

I have used this paper with the dye-sub ink, but it doesn't hold up very well. The dye sub ink adheres to polyester and this transfer sheet has a poly coating. I don't recommend this paper with dye-sub ink. i hope this helps. ...JB


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## rusty (Feb 9, 2007)

sjaguar13 said:


> What about this:
> Sublimation Paper, dye sublimation paper, sublimation transfer paper


That seesm to be just like regular dark transfer paper. It says it works with pigment and dye inks also, so why would somebody what to sublimate it when the sub ink is much more expensive? And pretty much all dark transfer paper is terrible. It's not acceptable for 90% of customers.


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## vctradingcubao (Nov 15, 2006)

Please check this out also:

International Coatings


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## DAGuide (Oct 2, 2006)

I think the really question is what do you consider a dye sublimation transfer is on fabric. For myself, it is transfer with absolutely no hand / feel to it. Does that not mean that you can't use sublimation inks with a special type of traditional transfer paper to make a good print? No, but in my opinion if you are going to use dye sublimation inks (that cost me $137.50 per 110 ML cartridge) that is still going to have or close to the same hand / feel of a traditional ink (that cost me $50.00 per 110 ML Cartridge), than the colors better be a 1000 times better and last longer. I have not experienced this yet. So, for dark shirts - I look at traditional dark transfer paper or a plastisol transfer. This is just my opinion.

Mark


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## Solmu (Aug 15, 2005)

DAGuide said:


> in my opinion if you are going to use dye sublimation inks (that cost me $137.50 per 110 ML cartridge) that is still going to have or close to the same hand / feel of a traditional ink (that cost me $50.00 per 110 ML Cartridge), than the colors better be a 1000 times better and last longer.


Surely it would need to look 2.75 times better?


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## COEDS (Oct 4, 2006)

That's a classic post Lewis ... 2.75 x better... That's great ......... JB


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## thinkworksdan (Mar 16, 2007)

the issue lies not with the dyesub process, but with the CMYK printing process. CMYK assumes white 'paper.' the inks combine to "subtract" the white of the substrate. The brightness of the color printed is determined by how much of the white substrate is blocked out. the inks are necessarily transparent, both to allow mixing of colors, and to allow the white to come through. Every technique I know of for printing on black garments involves making the area you are going to print on white, or using inks that are opaque enough to hide the black. If you need further illustration, try running a print through your inkjet with a black piece of paper. The ink prints, but you can't see anything...


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## pmarikelly (May 10, 2007)

Hi all,


I've just started learning shirt decorating and have a 4-color manual screenprinter, epson 1280 with artanium inks and epson 1280 with transmagic inks. 

I've tried the alpha gold dark transfer paper to put an image on a black shirt. The image can't be completely cut out, so I put black ink around it. It looks awful. 

So I started thinking of some possibilities. If you could print onto a regular transfer paper and then overprint with white ink exactly over the colored image, would the design show up? I'd like to try it but white ink's really expensive for something that probably won't work. And there isn't any for epson.

Another thought would be to get a white shirt and dye it black leaving a white window where you want to put the design. But I can't seem to find any info on protecting an area from dye.

So there's the opposite idea, get a black shirt and remove the color from an area (or at least lighten it substantially) using bleach or Rit color remover. Then create the design with a black background and transfer it onto the light window.

Has anyone every tried any of these methods or know anyone who has?

Penny

I'm just trying to think outside the box.


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## thinkworksdan (Mar 16, 2007)

Penny,

I'm not sure what you mean by 'the image can't be cut out', I have used opaque transfer paper and cut it with a vinyl cutter, it works okay, but I have yet to see an opaque transfer paper that holds up to washings.

Your thoughts on white ink are good, however, I'm going to shoot some holes in them, if you don't mind. when you refer to white ink being expensive and 'not available for epson,' do you mean white ink for an inkjet printer? In my post previous to yours, I mentioned that ALL CMYK printers assume a white printing surface. Recently, some Direct Garment Printing companies have created a white ink for the purpose of CMYK printing on dark garments. You would have to have a proprietary machine to use these materials. The method you mention, of trying to 'underbase' a transfer, is essentially what an opaque transfer is already. Also, remember that the material that you are transferring, be it sublimation ink, plastisol, direct printing pigment ink, whatever, is designed to stick to the shirt, not to white ink, or some kind of an undercoat.

Your second idea sounds interesting, but I don't know how it could possibly be done. as I understand the process, dyeing a garment requires it to be submerged in a dyeing fluid, and in the case of black, to be heated significantly. I can't concieve of any kind of material you could apply to a shirt to create this "blank space.'

Your third idea is already being done, to a degree. It's called discharge. The technique has been around for about 25-30 years, it can be done with screenprinting or with a discharge garment printer. It's important to understand that regular, commercial black shirts are not white before they are dyed black. they are a natural cotton color, so even if you can completely discharge the black dye, you still don't have white. A long time ago (10 years or so) I used to have a source for PFD garments (Prepared for Discharge.) They arent' around anymore and I'm having no luck finding anyone that supplies such a thing. You should also be aware that the discharge process uses a chemical known as ZFS (Zinc Formaldehye Sulfoxylate), which is considered to be a carcinogen.

You're thinking outside the box, alright. Don't give up, just thought I'd pass on what I've learned.

Dan


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## pmarikelly (May 10, 2007)

Thanks for your reply, Dan. I really appreciate the information and thoroughly enjoy learning and researching. Poking holes (aka constructive confrontation) is great!

I should have qualified by saying the limitations are to use the equipment I have which does not include a direct to textile printer nor a vinyl cutter. Unfurtunately I'm a whole lot in debt on equipment with not a lot of revenue coming in yet, so buying something else right now is out of the question.  Believe, me if I could find some bucks and a place to put both of them, I'd be all over it.  

This particular design is a sun with lots of rays that come off the main piece. They can be cut out with scissors, and I did do a sample in that manner. The other part of the design is lots of tiny, multipart letters that are to be printed under the sun. 

It seems like I'm just going to have to screenprint this one. Today I met some screenprinters that do amazing work....now if I could just figure that out with the 4 screen manual printer I have....but that's another message section....


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## thinkworksdan (Mar 16, 2007)

you're welcome. believe me, just buying new equipment doesn't solve all your problems, it often introduces more! 

As for your screenprinting, the real key is the white underbase. in my experience, you'll need the highest mesh tension you can get, sharp squeegee, and well stirred ink. off-contact is critical, too. good luck!

Dan


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