# Digital Printing on black t-shirts



## mikekomm

I checked out digital direct to garment printing a few years ago when the manufacturers were just starting to try to digitally print on black shirts. Has any of the suppliers perfected this process or come close to getting a bright white on black shirts or any color ink to show up brightly on dark shirts?

Any help would be appreciated.


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## SuddenUrge

Alot of the machines out there are using DuPonts new white ink which is a serious improvement over the first version(s). 

Once you get over the learning curve of pretreating and software quirks then its quite simple. Best thing I could suggest is if you can goto the LongBeach ISS Show in January and check all the machines out and see how they are printing, and ask for samples!


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## Justin Walker

Yes, the white ink printing has come a long way. However, it is also important to be aware of the costs involved - an average t-shirt with decent coverage is going to cost between $3.50-$6.50 per shirt, ink and pretreatment ALONE. I have actually seen numbers higher than that when working at the shows. Basically figure $4 on the low end for ink (per shirt). However, I know some people have some tricks up their sleeves that might start forcing that number down, sometime soon. I look forward to this happening.

In the meantime, Kornit has done a great job of perfecting the dark garment printing process. Their machines auto-pretreat the shirts ON the machine, then print the white and the CMYK automatically. No room for human error in this regard, and the cost per dark shirt is well under $1 per.


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## Gunslinger

As Justin stated, you have to factor in ink costs. Though, they have come out with larger bulk sized ink you can purchase, that will take a buck off ( I think we average $3 a shirt, so purchasing a larger quanity will be $2 a shirt) for the Dupont inks.

For pics of the new white ink, look over past posts by myself (new dupont inks with a T-Jet 3), or Justin's here showing the quality of the new Kornit white inks.

I know that I am having my wife have grab samples that are printed at the Long Beach show, for the autotreat machine/s, so I can test washability. Unless something else impresses me, we will expand with the Blazer, or look at a Kornit. I wasn't aware the Kornit's inks were less expensive ... interesting.

Justin, have you compared learning curves between your experience with the Kornit, and other machines? I have read some your posts, and it seems far more complex.


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## sunnydayz

I think the new white ink is a great improvement, my cost per shirt also averages between $2.50 to $3.00 ea. , I love the details I can get with my machine. I dont think I would be satisfied had I purchased a machine that did not have the white capability


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## treadhead

Justin Walker said:


> ....an average t-shirt with decent coverage is going to cost between $3.50-$6.50 per shirt, ink and pretreatment ALONE.


Hey Justin...

I'm with you on the $3.50 part but what are you basing the $6.50 number on?? It sounds like that may be more like a shirt with closer to full coverage and white underbase??

John


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## Justin Walker

John - yes, that is based on full coverage. We have printed well over 20,000 shirts in recent months, and the majority of these have been darks. Out of these darks, the majority have been full coverage. Many are also full sized prints (larger than the 12x12 I typically use for comparisons). However, when I compare a simple 12x12 print, it is good to get a CONSISTENT basis for comparison, therefore it makes sense to compare a 12x12 full coverage to a 12x12 full coverage print on another machine. You can get the cost of a 12x12 pretty low if the coverage is not full.

I would be interested in hearing more about this buying in bulk for lower prices - I am aware of the prices dealers pay for Dupont white, so I know what the rock bottom minimum a 12x12 would cost at full coverage at DEALER pricing. I find it very hard to fathom that anyone would be able to get this anywhere near $2 / ea, especially when the pretreatment alone per shirt approaches or even surpasses .50 per shirt by itself.

Another thing to consider is this - the iProof RIP is fantastic, but many users have found that they get more accurate results by almost doubling the given numbers. This is because the RIP only calculates ink that goes on to the shirt, not head cleanings and such. It does not take into account any of the Power Cleans, or simple cleans, or spitting, or weeping that the heads do. You would be shocked by how much ink this uses up. The lowest estimated amount I have heard or seen is 30% more than what actually ends up on the shirt.

Anyone have a small format DTG machine close to me that we could run some testing on? I would like to buy a pre-set amount of ink, make a 12x12 white square, and print as many as I can until I am completely out of ink. This way, you know precisely how many square inches of ink you lay down before you run out of "x" amount, and you can accurately calculate the ink cost INCLUDING all the cleaning routines and such. Any takers?


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## Gunslinger

Justin,

Head over to USSCREEN for the prices of the two new larger sizes of ink. Holiday pricing is still in effect, but you'll see what the everyday prices are.

I agree, it is more costly factoring in test proofs, head cleanings, misprints, etc. For myself, I have minimized head cleanings to one or two a day, as long as I stay in range of the proper ink levels. I have also reduced misprints by creating several rip files for a given print. For example, if I am printing two white passes at 1440x720, and one color pass at 1440x720 ... I create the one main file to do the whole 3 passes ... then, a file with one white pass and one color pass ... and finally, one with just the color pass. If the machine does something screwy, I can recover and save the shirt, depending on where I am on the print.

LOL, not sure anyone BUT YOU can afford to burn a bottle of ink. But, I'd like to suggest y'all get put a clean pan on the beds to collect the ink (so, it can be re-used), run the machines over and over, until the bottles are used up.

Justin, have you compared learning curves between your experience with the Kornit, and other machines? I have read some your posts, and it seems far more complex.


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## Justin Walker

Absolutely. The learning curve on the Kornit is pretty large. For most smaller DTG's, including the Flexi I used to own, it was fairly straightforward and simple. With the Kornit, you really need to understand the RIP functions in great deal, color calibrations, and machine functions. There are alot more options to fiddle with. The benefit is, once you understand it, you have far greater control over the final output of the product.

When I have some time later, I am going to go check out the latest ink prices from USSPI...


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## Justin Walker

As it turns out, I was too curious so I cruised over to check out the prices. Their holiday prices on the liter of white ink is $254, which is only $46 less than normal prices (which produce the $3.50+ production prices). That is 15% off, which would still leave the ink prices averaging $3 or more (although given what I have experienced, for a 12x12 print, that guess is too low). That is without factoring in the $81 for a gallon of pretreatment (somewhere there is a thread on one of these forums where people figured out how much the pretreatment costs, based on the gallon price and the recommended usage amount per shirt - it worked out around .50 per shirt for the pretreatment).

Again, I would love to see the actual price per square inch of the white ink as we run through an entire bottle. "Average" prices are very misleading, because they tend to factor in very small pocket prints and larger prints with little coverage. I would love to see specifically a 12x12, FULL coverage price, calculated in a controlled environment.

I saw that USSPI is also promoting 5 liter discounts, but I didn't see the price listed. I only glanced at the website.

Gunslinger - great idea on ripping the files in all stages for backup purposes!


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## Gunslinger

Cool, thanks Justin!

I am thankfully done for the Xmas rush (15 minutes ago, in fact). I can finally catch up on other things, and TRY to relax a bit for the holiday weekend. Sometime after the Long Beach show, I'd like to pick your brain a bit about your Kornit experience, Justin. I'll drop a PM, if you are open to it.


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## Tagger

Holiday Special: $1,016.60 for the 5 liter.


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## Justin Walker

$203.32 per liter on special? Pretty decent price, I'd say. The problem is, you can't build a business based on special prices. You need to be able to get those prices all the time to do any real calculations with them. I wonder what the ink yield is, as well. I know the Kornit ink, for 1 liter (normal price) is $160 or so. It is fairly high yield, so I don't need to put too much on the shirt to get great results.

Gunslinger - of course! My shop (and my brain) are always open!


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## Gunslinger

I keep forgetting the pretreatment costs. Yeah, I think it's important to run some kind of controlled test, and get these costs (from the end users) more accurate, in the real world. I think the guy who writes our RIP (FastRip Cad thing for the T-Jets), is due to add something to the program to accurately show how much ink is being used for a given job ... at least, I hope that is in the next release.

Does your RIP calculate how much ink is used for a run?

I can't recall the prices, but if I run across them from either USSCREEN or the dealer I got our T-Jet 3 setup ... I'll let you know.


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## Gunslinger

There you go, thanks Bruce.

Argh, my wife handles the numbers! Good question about ink yield ... I have no clue (and I probably should). I agree about the holiday price. I really wanted to take advantage and get a bunch of ink on sale, but we are cash tied up trying to purchase a larger restaurant location. Obviously, you can't take in sale costs, when crunching the numbers. And even on a light shirt side ... for instance, I prefer to print two passes at 1440x720 of color ink, with no pretreament. Others, prefer with one pass at a lower resolution (less ink) with pretreatment. All this stuff should be tested in the field.


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## sunnydayz

equipement zone also carries the 2 and 5 liter bottles of ink.


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## DAGuide

As mentioned above, a RIP is only going to tell you what the amount of ink is being dropped to print the specific graphic. Most RIPs have an ink calculator in it that will take the amount of ink used for each channel and multiple that times the cost per a Liter of ink for that channel. The iProof RIPs allow you to set your cost per a Liter. As Justin mentioned, most people will take the amount generated by the RIP and multiple it times 1.2 - 1.5 to cover the shipping cost of the ink and all the maintenance done by both the user and the Epson firmware. You could also increase the cost per a liter in the RIP and just use the number that shows up as well. I would recommend increasing the cost of the white ink higher because it tends to have more issues with clogging and you can factor in the cost of pretreatment into this amount as well. For budgeting and pricing purposes, it is always better to guess on the high side for costs / expenses. Hope this explains how most ink calculators in RIPs work and the adjustments a user should include.

Best Wishes,

Mark


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## Justin Walker

Unfortunately, the RIP we currently use (Wasatch) does not try and calculate ink costs for us. I did controlled tests on a consistent image, which I printed 600 of for a client, and calculated how many bottles of white ink I used and divided it by the number of shirts, then factored in pretreatment costs. For that image (it was larger than 12x13, but with only 80-90% coverage or so - tough to remember after all this time), including pretreatment and misprints, it worked out to be about .75 per print.

I really want Fred from iProof to work on a RIP for the Kornit, and it is in the cards, eventually. He is just so busy with everything else that he has to prioritize. He is only one man! lol I would say that the iProof RIPs are the best in the industry, by far. Combine that awesome software with a Kornit and I might be going places...

One thing to note is this - it is important to understand that the open discussion of costs / numbers associated with dark shirt printing is not meant to dissuade anyone from the practice. It is simply meant as a means of comparison, and to fully understand the true costs BEFORE you buy your machine, not after. If you are fully aware of all associated costs before you jump in head first, you can better prepare your pricing structure to maximize your profits and succeed in the long run. Too many people rely on what they are told by the salespeople, and this can often lead to trouble.


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## sunnydayz

I agree that the numbers that you are told by the manufacturers of these machines is definately less than actual ink costs that you use, luckily I knew this before buying my machine


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## tpope

Thanks Justin and Bobbie for sharing your ink usage/costs. This does allow me to better fine tune my costs analysis.


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## Gunslinger

Good Point, Mark ... I know that we set up our pricing to the high side. When we first started, our pricing was higher than it is now. As we went along, we were able to calculate pricing a bit better (though, nowhere precise, as I think we all need to know).

I wish I was closer to Justin (I really don't, because I have no competition here, lol) ... I have a couple of spare days to run this kind of test. But, I don't know how our individual softwares will affect the outcome of getting the exact coverage for a precise test. I am still trying to get this new white ink down to a science. Every design is forcing me to adjust settings (more test prints than I would like to perform), and trying to find a sweet spot or range to avoid the white from bleeding out from the colors ... groan.


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## Justin Walker

My pleasure.


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## treadhead

Gunslinger said:


> I've also reduced misprints by creating several rip files for a given print. For example, if I am printing two white passes at 1440x720, and one color pass at 1440x720 ... I create the one main file to do the whole 3 passes ... then, a file with one white pass and one color pass ... and finally, one with just the color pass. If the machine does something screwy, I can recover and save the shirt, depending on where I am on the print.


Hey Michael...

I like your thoughts on creating backups "just in case" but have a question on how you do this. I have a T Jet 2. When you Print to FastRIP you have to "locate" the design on the layout before you print it to the RIP program. However, if I were to go back and generate the same file without a white underbase say...then I would have to hit the Print to FastRIP again which would require me to relocate my design.

How do you maintain consistent registration between one version and the other?? Am I missing something? Is there a way to remove the number of color passes OR remove the underbase on a file without disturbing the locaiton of the design on the layout??

I've often wished I could do this but didn't think it was possible.....

Thanks!

John


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## Alastair

Justin Walker said:


> Yes, the white ink printing has come a long way. However, it is also important to be aware of the costs involved - an average t-shirt with decent coverage is going to cost between $3.50-$6.50 per shirt, ink and pretreatment ALONE. I have actually seen numbers higher than that when working at the shows. Basically figure $4 on the low end for ink (per shirt). However, I know some people have some tricks up their sleeves that might start forcing that number down, sometime soon. I look forward to this happening.
> 
> In the meantime, Kornit has done a great job of perfecting the dark garment printing process. Their machines auto-pretreat the shirts ON the machine, then print the white and the CMYK automatically. No room for human error in this regard, and the cost per dark shirt is well under $1 per.


I'd like to know how much difference the RIP makes to this figure. Here in the UK we use PrintPro which doesn't give you the option of costing the ink. However we do log every print we do. We print around 1000 shirts a month on our HM1, and our ink costs are £1000 + taxes - so £1 a shirt ($2). 95% of these are on dark shirts, and are high coverage chest prints.
We print white at 1440 and colour at 720. Pre-treatment we dilute 50/50.
My point is - how on earth do you get to $6.50 a print, and could the RIP make this difference?


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## TahoeTomahawk

Over $6 is really high, however before the new white ink most of us were doing 2 passes of white at 1440. On average our prints were in the range of $4.50. Now it's about half that.


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## Gunslinger

treadhead said:


> Hey Michael...
> 
> I like your thoughts on creating backups "just in case" but have a question on how you do this. I have a T Jet 2. When you Print to FastRIP you have to "locate" the design on the layout before you print it to the RIP program. However, if I were to go back and generate the same file without a white underbase say...then I would have to hit the Print to FastRIP again which would require me to relocate my design.
> 
> How do you maintain consistent registration between one version and the other?? Am I missing something? Is there a way to remove the number of color passes OR remove the underbase on a file without disturbing the locaiton of the design on the layout??
> 
> I've often wished I could do this but didn't think it was possible.....
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> John


I think I understand what you are saying, John. I believe you are talking about how FastArtist/FastRip keeps placing the image back to the upper-left corner everytime you make any printing changes (i.e. changing resolutions, print passes, etc.). I am not sure if I am going to explain this correctly, so let me know if it's still hazy, and I will try to do it with screenshots or something visual.

After getting the underbase the way I want it in FastArtist, I hit "Print to FastRip." That sends it to that limbo-like area, where you position your print on your board (as well as, clicking the dot-dot-dot button to open the FastRip Settings dialog). Generally, my prints are centered, and positioned an inch and a half or two inches down from the collar. There are two little buttons to the right of the auto positioning box (with all the arrows) ... the first one opens a small positioning dialog to precisely place the image where you want it with x and y axis from the upper left corner of your board, while the second button simply expands your image to fill the entire board.

Since I have to test most images for my desired underbase results, I will create my original rip, first ... and work backwards, creating the other files. So, lemme use an example I did with that last radio job:

1. Click "Print to FastRip"
2. Click dot-dot-dot button for FastRip Settings.
3. Select 1440x720 Photo Standard (one color pass)
4. Select 1440x720 Photo Standard (two underbase passes)
5. Select OK, and click the upper-center arrow button (to auto center the print)
6. Click the x/y axis button, and type 2 in the Y box (to position two inches down)
7. Click OK, the click the printer button to send to FastRip.

After naming and spooling the file, I go back to the FastRip settings dialog, and change 1440x720 photo standard underbase to only one pass. Click OK, which then moves the print back to the upper left corner, and redo steps 5, 6 and 7, and name/spool the job in FastRip.

Now, I go allllll the way back to FastArtist, save the file, then UNDO the underbase, so I just have my print, and save that file. Then, click "Print to FastRip" again, run through the steps above (the underbase settings will be ignored), and again name and spool the job.

Registration will be the same for all 3 jobs, with the annoying exception of the machine getting quirky on me and misfiring a pass.

There is probably an easier way to remove passes and/or underbase from a complete job, but this is my typical hack style for a solution. The rip files are named accordingly, so if a client comes back and wants the same print on a set of lighter shirts ... I have the file, it's ready to go.

I hope I explained that correctly, but if not ... please let me know!


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## skegrie431

Hi,

This new white (Dupont)ink that everyone here says is som much better, with one is this, I have a T-Jet end use their "FastInk". Is FastInk the same as DuPonts?

Peo


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## sunnydayz

Yes fastink is the dupont ink.


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## treadhead

Gunslinger said:


> I think I understand what you are saying, John. I believe you are talking about how FastArtist/FastRip keeps placing the image back to the upper-left corner everytime you make any printing changes (i.e. changing resolutions, print passes, etc.). I am not sure if I am going to explain this correctly, so let me know if it's still hazy, and I will try to do it with screenshots or something visual.
> 
> After getting the underbase the way I want it in FastArtist, I hit "Print to FastRip." That sends it to that limbo-like area, where you position your print on your board (as well as, clicking the dot-dot-dot button to open the FastRip Settings dialog). Generally, my prints are centered, and positioned an inch and a half or two inches down from the collar. There are two little buttons to the right of the auto positioning box (with all the arrows) ... the first one opens a small positioning dialog to precisely place the image where you want it with x and y axis from the upper left corner of your board, while the second button simply expands your image to fill the entire board.
> 
> Since I have to test most images for my desired underbase results, I will create my original rip, first ... and work backwards, creating the other files. So, lemme use an example I did with that last radio job:
> 
> 1. Click "Print to FastRip"
> 2. Click dot-dot-dot button for FastRip Settings.
> 3. Select 1440x720 Photo Standard (one color pass)
> 4. Select 1440x720 Photo Standard (two underbase passes)
> 5. Select OK, and click the upper-center arrow button (to auto center the print)
> 6. Click the x/y axis button, and type 2 in the Y box (to position two inches down)
> 7. Click OK, the click the printer button to send to FastRip.
> 
> After naming and spooling the file, I go back to the FastRip settings dialog, and change 1440x720 photo standard underbase to only one pass. Click OK, which then moves the print back to the upper left corner, and redo steps 5, 6 and 7, and name/spool the job in FastRip.
> 
> Now, I go allllll the way back to FastArtist, save the file, then UNDO the underbase, so I just have my print, and save that file. Then, click "Print to FastRip" again, run through the steps above (the underbase settings will be ignored), and again name and spool the job.
> 
> Registration will be the same for all 3 jobs, with the annoying exception of the machine getting quirky on me and misfiring a pass.
> 
> There is probably an easier way to remove passes and/or underbase from a complete job, but this is my typical hack style for a solution. The rip files are named accordingly, so if a client comes back and wants the same print on a set of lighter shirts ... I have the file, it's ready to go.
> 
> I hope I explained that correctly, but if not ... please let me know!


Yep..that is exactly what I was talking about!

I really appreciate the run through! I never used the auto-position features (didn't know they existed... ). This makes sense to me and I will give it a try to see how it works!!

Thanks again Michael!!

John


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## adawg2252

Gunslinger said:


> I think I understand what you are saying, John. I believe you are talking about how FastArtist/FastRip keeps placing the image back to the upper-left corner everytime you make any printing changes (i.e. changing resolutions, print passes, etc.). I am not sure if I am going to explain this correctly, so let me know if it's still hazy, and I will try to do it with screenshots or something visual.
> 
> After getting the underbase the way I want it in FastArtist, I hit "Print to FastRip." That sends it to that limbo-like area, where you position your print on your board (as well as, clicking the dot-dot-dot button to open the FastRip Settings dialog). Generally, my prints are centered, and positioned an inch and a half or two inches down from the collar. There are two little buttons to the right of the auto positioning box (with all the arrows) ... the first one opens a small positioning dialog to precisely place the image where you want it with x and y axis from the upper left corner of your board, while the second button simply expands your image to fill the entire board.
> 
> Since I have to test most images for my desired underbase results, I will create my original rip, first ... and work backwards, creating the other files. So, lemme use an example I did with that last radio job:
> 
> 1. Click "Print to FastRip"
> 2. Click dot-dot-dot button for FastRip Settings.
> 3. Select 1440x720 Photo Standard (one color pass)
> 4. Select 1440x720 Photo Standard (two underbase passes)
> 5. Select OK, and click the upper-center arrow button (to auto center the print)
> 6. Click the x/y axis button, and type 2 in the Y box (to position two inches down)
> 7. Click OK, the click the printer button to send to FastRip.
> 
> After naming and spooling the file, I go back to the FastRip settings dialog, and change 1440x720 photo standard underbase to only one pass. Click OK, which then moves the print back to the upper left corner, and redo steps 5, 6 and 7, and name/spool the job in FastRip.
> 
> Now, I go allllll the way back to FastArtist, save the file, then UNDO the underbase, so I just have my print, and save that file. Then, click "Print to FastRip" again, run through the steps above (the underbase settings will be ignored), and again name and spool the job.
> 
> Registration will be the same for all 3 jobs, with the annoying exception of the machine getting quirky on me and misfiring a pass.
> 
> There is probably an easier way to remove passes and/or underbase from a complete job, but this is my typical hack style for a solution. The rip files are named accordingly, so if a client comes back and wants the same print on a set of lighter shirts ... I have the file, it's ready to go.
> 
> I hope I explained that correctly, but if not ... please let me know!


You do know that if you go into FastRIP setup, and go to the preferences tab, or possibly the Page Setup tab, theres a box in the top right.

It has "selected objects only, entire page size" and a check box. Maybe one other option. If you select this, when you click print to fast rip, it keeps the file located where you had it before going to the "Print To FastRIP" menu. No more re-locating.

I had the same problem you were having until I called US Screen and they told me to change those settings, and now, no more re-locating!

Then when you "un-do" your underbase, you can just click off the underbase icon and click print to fast rip, and it's in the same spot because you never moved the file at all.

Might save you some time.

I'm not at my T-Jet so I don't know the menu exactly, but when I'm at the computer I'll possibly re-post/edit this post with the exacts.


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## treadhead

adawg2252 said:


> You do know that if you go into FastRIP setup, and go to the preferences tab, or possibly the Page Setup tab, theres a box in the top right.
> 
> It has "selected objects only, entire page size" and a check box. Maybe one other option. If you select this, when you click print to fast rip, it keeps the file located where you had it before going to the "Print To FastRIP" menu. No more re-locating.
> 
> I had the same problem you were having until I called US Screen and they told me to change those settings, and now, no more re-locating!
> 
> Then when you "un-do" your underbase, you can just click off the underbase icon and click print to fast rip, and it's in the same spot because you never moved the file at all.
> 
> Might save you some time.
> 
> I'm not at my T-Jet so I don't know the menu exactly, but when I'm at the computer I'll possibly re-post/edit this post with the exacts.


Hey Andrew.....

Nope...didn't know that either!!  

I'll check that out as well.

Man...this forum just continues to exceed my expectations!!!

Thanks guys!!


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## Gunslinger

Yeah, Thanks Andrew ... I never used those myself, and will definately play with em!

And ditto, John ... when I started, I was tapping and eyeballing to place a damn print, close to where I wanted ... LOL.


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## clarkhaddock

*ink Costs on white shirts?*

Anyone know the costs for printing on white shirts? I see here that most people are saying the ink costs for darks or using white ink is around $3.50-$4.00. I hope white shirts or prints without white ink are less.


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## sunnydayz

it only costs about $.50 per shirt on white shirts, the big cost is white ink on black shirts.


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## clarkhaddock

that is with any digital printer, not just the Konit?


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## sunnydayz

Yep although the brother might be a little more as the inks are more expensive.


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## cavedave

If you go to the cadlink web site (who write FastARTIST and FastRIP) there is an area called Infosource which has a discussion on forum and lots of useful Avi's you can download. You can use this as a good area to learn more about the software and pos questions directly to Cadlink. Anyone can join.
While these are about Signlab Print and Cut, Signlab is FastARTIST but also supports cut devices. But 90% of the features are the same.

There are also AVI's on US Screen web site (you have to be a user) on some specific FastARTIST features and printing White from FastARTIST and directly from other applications such as PhotoShop and Corel, as well as color managment.

You should also have recieved as part of the FastARTIST package a CD called the Signlab training CD and that has a load of AVI's on using SIgnlab that would cover areas such as prining and aligning data on the output device.

Best regards

-David


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## cterrebl

I have a DTG printer that's capable of printing on darks, but we stick to white/lights because of the hassle of pretreating the shirts and the time involved in a second print due to the white base coat. I haven't looked into this in awhile - has an easier way been developed yet? Are the pretreating machines that I've seen cost effective?


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## Ellen_90

While printing on dark or black materials always ensure that you use quality Heat transfer paper, the heat transfer paper offered by Subtransferpaper includes cold and hot peel transfer papers which are highly effective for printing on dark shirts.


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