# Matsui Discharge inks



## tll9284 (Apr 14, 2010)

Hello! i have been looking on this forum for the past three days reading everything about discharge inks. i just ordered the matsui discharge base, activator and other supplies needed to mix discharge inks. I love the soft hand of discharge inks on dark shirts. I see bright colors a lot with discharge inks, but when i read on this forum, majority says that it is not very bright. Here is a pic of a discharge print. this looks bright to me? are there any particular secrets to achieving brilliant results? Are the Matsui discharge inks good? Any advice here would be great!

http://www.vacord.com/images/axe.jpg


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## RichardGreaves (Nov 7, 2006)

Yes, Matsui inks are fine. Remember the unique shirt dye & oven combo deliver the finished result. Like roasting a turkey, slow cooking achieves superior results - you are killing the dye in the shirt, it doesn't happen fast.

*
Homework*
http://www.t-shirtforums.com/screen-printing-inks/t112843.html#post661123


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## splathead (Dec 4, 2005)

You can't judge how bright a shirt will print from a picture. Lighting does wonders on color brightness.

The brightness of a discharge based is also based on the ink you place on top. All discharge does is make the base print white (or almost white). What you put on top of that base is what makes it bright. A bright plastisol ink on top of a discharge base will be brighter than a bright waterbased ink due to the transparent nature of waterbase inks.


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## tll9284 (Apr 14, 2010)

I am not looking to printing with plastisol inks. I really do not want the hard feeling of plastisol, and my customers are wanting the soft hand that a water based and discharge ink provide. Matsui has the discharge white that, from what i have seen, provides excellent white discharge. they also have a clear base that you can incorporate pc pigments with. again, from what i have seen, looks really vibrant. Is there any tricks to acheive this look? I understand that the curing is a must with forced air. i would just like to know why there are people who get very vibrant colors from this process and others get mediocre results.


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## splathead (Dec 4, 2005)

You will get a brighter print using waterbased inks if you treat the discharge as a separate step than printing. Discharge first, without any colors added to the discharge, then screen print like normal over the discharge.


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## Unik Ink (Nov 21, 2006)

splathead said:


> You will get a brighter print using waterbased inks if you treat the discharge as a separate step than printing. Discharge first, without any colors added to the discharge, then screen print like normal over the discharge.


I think that we are going to try this. We normally just add pc pigments to the discharge base. Can you print wet on wet, discharge base first, then rc colors on top or do you have to flash the discharge base first?


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## splathead (Dec 4, 2005)

Unik Ink said:


> Can you print wet on wet, discharge base first, then rc colors on top or do you have to flash the discharge base first?


Flash discharge first, then you can print colors wet on wet.


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## tll9284 (Apr 14, 2010)

Unik Ink said:


> I think that we are going to try this. We normally just add pc pigments to the discharge base. Can you print wet on wet, discharge base first, then rc colors on top or do you have to flash the discharge base first?


do you have any pics of what your discharge prints look like? are you (and most importantly your customers) happy with the results? what kind of discharge do you use?

i can't wait to start trying this. i am hoping that it turns out like I want it to. here is a video i found on you tube, it seems like theirs are bright!

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3c2xxTeh71A[/media]


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## Unik Ink (Nov 21, 2006)

Here are a few. 
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSe6Vn0fsto[/media]


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## tll9284 (Apr 14, 2010)

wow. those look amazing! are these all done with discharge inks or both discharge and water based? the white in the first pic is really white. what type of tees are you using? i am using the gildan 5000 to start out with and experiment. what brand inks do you use?


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## Unik Ink (Nov 21, 2006)

Thanks. The shirt in the video is discharge white + foil adhesive. The XCFL is discharge white, discharge base mixed to cool gray 10, and discharge base only. The baddass cross design is wb black, pigmented discharge for light green, and wb for dark green. The angel design is discharge base only and wb black. All are Matsui inks except the foil adhesive which is Union Ink. All shirts are Alstyle 5301.


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## tll9284 (Apr 14, 2010)

Unik Ink said:


> Thanks. The shirt in the video is discharge white + foil adhesive.


What is foil adhesive?


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## Unik Ink (Nov 21, 2006)

tll9284 said:


> What is foil adhesive?


It is a clear liquid used to adhere the foil to the shirt. In the video, white discharge ink and a clear foil adhesive are printed onto the shirt. After that, the sheet of blue foil is applied to the shirt and pressed. The foil sticks to the adhesive and not the discharge ink. When you pull the sheet of foil away from the print, it is stuck only to the adhesive, leaving a blue foil print and white discharge ink design.


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## tll9284 (Apr 14, 2010)

that is really neat. love your shirts though, you did a great job! As soon as i play around with this i will post some pics on this thread. is there any advice to give about discharge inks? can you print wet on wet for all of the different colors or do you flash between colors?


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## out da box (May 1, 2007)

Justin have you had success with gildan tees and discharge? I have experimented several times with discharge and was not pleased with the results trying to discharge a white underbase on black tees and printing top colors over. Underbase not bright at all.


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## Unik Ink (Nov 21, 2006)

out da box said:


> Justin have you had success with gildan tees and discharge? I have experimented several times with discharge and was not pleased with the results trying to discharge a white underbase on black tees and printing top colors over. Underbase not bright at all.


We rarely use discharge inks on Gildan besides for test prints. I saw a video ranking different brands by their reactivity, and it says that Gildan came in second. [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_FBN1fWkds[/media]


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## PatFinn (Jan 13, 2010)

that first video is mine.. that was around a year ago.. since then i have gone auto and have a gas dryer, which is crucial to getting a fully cured discharge shirt. 

make sure you do wash tests/crock test, to make sure your getting it completely cured..( just becasue it has charged does NOT mean it has been completely cured) 

the shirt is vibrant.the colors are great and still do to this day. i print discharge alll day everyday. Matsui is a great product. I would NOT print discharge base and then RC on top. the rc is very transparent and arent that BRIGHT on a dis. base. if you are going to go that route i would at least use the OW or the HO base to print on top. those are a bit more opaque. 

but i print all dye discharge and get very bright colors that last. not too hard you just have to experiment with % of pigments to bases and so on. one thing i can say is make sure you get the bright discharge base. and the dsfp white. the bright base is awsome and gets you great color!


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## tll9284 (Apr 14, 2010)

out da box said:


> Justin have you had success with gildan tees and discharge? I have experimented several times with discharge and was not pleased with the results trying to discharge a white underbase on black tees and printing top colors over. Underbase not bright at all.


are you using the matsui inks? from the information i have gathered, if you use just the discharge it isn't very bright. i have also read that different colors of shirts do not work well in achieving vibrant whites, like kelly green and purple.


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## tll9284 (Apr 14, 2010)

here is the video that i found from ryonet. i bought my press from there. love it. he has a lot of information about discharge printing and you can order videos on it. he is using the gildan tees in this video. 

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8-kO4dn2iQ[/media]


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## tll9284 (Apr 14, 2010)

PatFinn said:


> that first video is mine.. that was around a year ago.. since then i have gone auto and have a gas dryer, which is crucial to getting a fully cured discharge shirt.


are you talking about the video that i posted? If so, how many colors do you print wet on wet? also, i was wondering how long do you have before it starts to dry in the screen?


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## PatFinn (Jan 13, 2010)

yes the one with the 3 color discharge from real thread.. thats me. you have plenty of time.. make sure you flood your screens. I have a 7/ 8 auto now and i can run all 7 colors wet on wet.. but i have a lot of control. if you dont contol things you will have ink buid up and other little things go wrong.. 

big things.. make sure your screens are completely exposed so your screens dont break down. 

mix more than enough ink, because its nto the easiest thing to get EXACT colors again. and it helps prevent drying 

make sure you have nice even coverage otherwise you will notice 

print white last

you can do some trapping but not much so your reg. must be very good 

good luck


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## snackdaddy185 (May 17, 2008)

Do you print the foil adhesive directly on top of the discharge base? Thanks.


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## tll9284 (Apr 14, 2010)

PatFinn said:


> yes the one with the 3 color discharge from real thread.. thats me. you have plenty of time.. make sure you flood your screens. I have a 7/ 8 auto now and i can run all 7 colors wet on wet.. but i have a lot of control. if you dont contol things you will have ink buid up and other little things go wrong..
> 
> big things.. make sure your screens are completely exposed so your screens dont break down.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the information! very helpful. what do you mean by you have a lot of control??? how do you prevent ink build up? Also, do you recommend heating the platen to 140 degrees like the video from ryonet states?


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## Cloak (Dec 17, 2008)

Discharge really is about paying attention to the details. I've done a few runs of it and I vastly prefer it over plastisol for the types of shirts I print. I really do need a different dryer than my little flash/heat gun, but they do work out pretty well. I have a hoodie that was 50/50 I wore every day during the winter through many many washes and it is holding up very well.


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## PatFinn (Jan 13, 2010)

i try to control all of my variables. ie i have tight screens which makes it so you have less ink build up and you can have faster print speeds lower off contact and ultimately less ink build up.. im not saying that i dont get ink build up, but i have a lot less than i would with stretch and glue frames. 
I also make sure you EOM (emulsion over mesh ) is where i want it to be every time i print. that controls the wet ink deposit onto the shirt. 
I could type for a long time on this. but basically i did a lot of research and testing. I cant really tell you what to do unless i was there becasue everyones equipment is different. but you NEED to be using re-tensionable frames. they are crucial to haveing more control. 

and with discharge your dryer is a BIG variable. because you definatly want to make sure you have a FULL charge and the binding to take place.

and for heating my pallets Yea i mean its not the end of the world if they are not hot, but i use waterbase adhesive on my pallets so its better for the to be hot. i just keep my flash on there and let it run over my pallets during the run so they stay warm.


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## replicajeremy (Apr 16, 2010)

I'd love to hear everyone opions on whether they use discharge base and add pigment or print plain discharge then water base colors on top. Which gets better or brighter results?

I did plain discharge and then matsui water base colors over it, though it was the thinner matsui wb, and didn't get very bright results. 

Adding pigment to discharge seems easier and less screens, but does that work as well?

Thanks everyone for all the info here!


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## Diver86 (Dec 6, 2006)

*Screen And Digital Supply has some really good Matsui discharge start-up kits.*


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## brent (Nov 3, 2006)

The picture in the first post is one of my prints. My employee showed me this thread and I have to chime in here.

The way to get really nice bright discharge prints is to add pigments to the discharge, and use good discharge, properly mixed, on shirts that discharge well. Gildan discharges very well for a lot of their shirts in the 100% cotton styles. I print on Gildan more than any other brand, and I print discharge almost every day. Not all of their colors discharge well. Red and Kelly Green and Purple, etc. A lot of medium colors don't discharge well, like some medium blues. They don't discharge brightly. But their darker colors work well.

I heartily recommend Matsui brand inks and suggest you buy from Westix out in California, westixonline.com. They are super guys and very informative.

Get the bright discharge clear, and that formula will give you the brightest results. Add pigments straight to it, and then you can print multiple colors of discharge wet-on-wet with butt registration. Do NOT use bright discharge clear as an underbase, because it will mute the colors on top. The old formula, just called "discharge clear", doesn't mute the top colors as much but it doesn't discharge as bright, so it's no better.
There is no point in doing a discharge underbase. Just mix in pigments and print the colors separate. You use one less screen that way anyway, not needing an underbase. 

I just finished a run of 3 color shirts, on old navy charcoal heather shirts that the customer provided. I printed black waterbased ink, flashed, then printed blue discharge then white discharge wet on wet. It turned out well.

Discharge can be a PITA but it's cool and what I specialize in. People like the results. I don't do any plastisol printing. I think plastisol on top of a discharge underbase is silly. Just mix in good pigments with a good discharge on a shirt the discharges well and you can get a beautiful, bright print. The print in that picture that the OP linked is very bright, it's not a lighting trick. 

Adding Matsui's Printgen C softener allows you to print through higher mesh. You can do up to 230 with discharge that way and if you keep moving you should be fine. Matsui has software that helps you match pantone codes by telling which pigments to use in what ratio, and getting a pantone book helps you match it up with your eyeballs. I don't guarantee 100% accuracy in matching colors but I do very well.

To summarize, get bright results by adding pigments into discharge and be sure you add enough agent to make the discharge ink potent.

My old blog has a lot of information on discharge printing.


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## Common Seed (Apr 19, 2010)

A couple months ago I got a matsui kit from Jessup in NJ (who are a handy 1-day ship from Baltimore, where I reside) and I am totally sold. I get super bright results mixing pigment with bright discharge base and activator. I can see where underbasing could be helpful for certain applications like doing cmyk on a dark tee, but I agree it is silly to print plastisol over a discharge (a little self defeating). I use mostly Royal Apparel's organic tees, and they discharge very well. American Apparel's sustainable edition took a little more activator. A belt dryer with forced air would be nice, but I am surviving by using a couple flash dryers and a post-print-run tumble in a regular clothes dryer (for good measure). I get great results but the system of flash dryers slows me down quite a bit, because I have to check each for full discharge. The main thing is to do a lot of testing all the time, and if the color tests well on the type of shirt you are printing on then it's good, but if not then do more testing. At least at the beginning, it has been taking me a long time to mix colors, I'm guessing I'll get better accustomed to it in time.

Discharge is the best.


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## dVuj (Jun 2, 2010)

Wait, so for the angel, aside from the outline which is wb black, that is just discharge itself? No ink?


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## dVuj (Jun 2, 2010)

Unik Ink said:


> Thanks. The shirt in the video is discharge white + foil adhesive. The XCFL is discharge white, discharge base mixed to cool gray 10, and discharge base only. The baddass cross design is wb black, pigmented discharge for light green, and wb for dark green. The angel design is discharge base only and wb black. All are Matsui inks except the foil adhesive which is Union Ink. All shirts are Alstyle 5301.


Wait, so the angel, aside from the wb black outline, is just discharge? No ink?


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## Unik Ink (Nov 21, 2006)

dVuj said:


> Wait, so the angel, aside from the wb black outline, is just discharge? No ink?


It is waterbased black ink, discharge ink (no pigments added), then foil was added later.


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## 2DayCircus.com (Feb 1, 2009)

I'm very interested in discharge as well. I have the Matsui.

I have done a few prints, but I don't have a conveyor dryer 
just my flash. I had two fans set up and my bay vented. I even wore a respirator but is still made me feel sick.

I saw a post that someone prints discharge with no oven...
Doesn't it make you sick?

I mean Formaldehyde is pretty nasty stuff?


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## Common Seed (Apr 19, 2010)

Lance,

My understanding is that there is actually very little formaldehyde in Matsui discharge. My shop definitely gets a little hazy, but I haven't felt any negative effects. It could be you are more sensitive to it than I am, but you raise an important concern. 

I also wonder how much the garment you are discharging and dye that manufacturer uses effects the user, because that dye has to go somewhere. I use garments that I print are organic cotton and only use Fiber-Reactive Dyes, I don't know if once they are airborne they are any better, but they are promoted as being "low-impact." 

I think Wilflex makes a water-based discharge that is formaldehyde free, I haven't tried it though.

Mike


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## RichardGreaves (Nov 7, 2006)

*Discharge additive attacks and destroys the dye in your fabric*

Please keep in mind that discharge additive attacks and destroys the dye in your fabric. 

Some people are more sensitive to the smell, but the corrosive nature of all discharge inks is why you should ventilate.


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## printing40years (Dec 27, 2008)

Some Gildan colors discharge better than others. I like Hanes Beefy Tees. Some brands of discharge ink work better than others a as well, so shop around and test first.


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## tll9284 (Apr 14, 2010)

so i have been playing around with it and so far, i love love love it! although the mixing can be a PIA, it seems so much easier. i have done three designs with the discharge dye. Still have a couple of questions though, 

how do you know that it is cured? when i put it in the dryer, it is not really noticeable, and when i take it out, wala! it is bright as can be. i did notice, however that the premixed matsui discharge white has sort of a crusty feeling to it until i wash it, then it feels like nothing is there. nothing has washed out so far, but was just wondering if there are tell tale signs that it is not cured? 

thanks everyone on here, you have been a great help for this experience! 

oh, by the way i have been using 100% gildan cotton tees, and they work really well! everythign shows up so bright! i also experimented with tie dyed shirts and the white discharge and it looked amazing! so white!!!


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## Diver86 (Dec 6, 2006)

A little less activator will make it softer. Less is better. Certain brands don't need as much to work. The gildans we print at the shows work well around 4-5%.

Call Kazoo at Charles Jessup Co, he's the Matsui guru. 1-800-525-4657[/B]


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## tll9284 (Apr 14, 2010)

i just ran into a bit of a problem. I have an order of sport grey gildan t's and noticed today that they are 10% poly. will this affect the outcome if i am using a navy discharge? or should i just use waterbased ink instead?


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## Common Seed (Apr 19, 2010)

When using dark colors on midtones, generally you don't need to discharge the dye out, for that reason you should be fine using navy discharge or regular WB inks. 

Poly cotton mixes haven't not discharged as well for me, but the sports grey is only 10% poly, so even using a brighter discharge (white) may work.


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## Cloak (Dec 17, 2008)

Personally, I like the look that can provide but you may not.

I have a hoodie I discharged that is 50/50. I will try to get a picture of it tomorrow for you so you can see the results. I would suggest giving it a try on a test shirt to see if you're happy with the results.


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## tll9284 (Apr 14, 2010)

i am doing a test on one right now. i will let you know how it turns out. i would love to see the pic!


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## Diver86 (Dec 6, 2006)

*You should use the Matsui 301-C Clear Base and the 301-10 Navy Blue MB pigment. You get better washfastness, meaning it will stay darker longer because it actually has a resin that will lock in the pigment.
It gives you a good dense soft hand color without doing discharge. As long as the garment is lighter than the color you're printing.

The Matsui ECO-Series waterbase prints extremely well and is VERY soft. It's used in a lot of high fashion printing even the 301-M Opaque Base is soft to the touch.*


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## tll9284 (Apr 14, 2010)

Is there any reason why discharge would fade over a few washes? i did some tests with the sport gray shirts and navy discharge, and it has faded really bad. i also did the same design with the RC clear base with the navy pigment and they look brand new still, no fading at all. did i do something wrong? is there any additive to make discharge more color fast? any advice would be appreciated!


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