# Why is there so much damn maintenance on these?



## lorddamax (Apr 13, 2011)

So I'm in the sign and vehicle wrap business. I do some tshirts here and there either using something like Joto trimfree on whites, and easyweed for single color shirts on darks. I'm thinking I can expand with a DTG. I do some local events and I'm thinking if I can do custom shirts, on site, I'll make a killing.

So I'm reading all I can on these machines. And one thing I'm seeing over and over again is MAINTENANCE. Daily, weekly, monthly.

Why do these machines require SO much maintenance? I have a $24,000 Roland 54" EcoSolvent printer. I print consistently beautiful signs, banners, and vehicle wraps with it. My maintenance? Once a month I clean the capping stations, pull any lint/fuzz off the print heads, clean the wiper, etc. It takes me 10 minutes. 15 if it's really gummed up. Sometimes mid-month I need to do another cleaning if I notice the prints getting streaky (for some reason, my machine collects lint like a freaking swiffer. I'll have tiny hairs on the print head that drag/streak the ink). Never a clog, never a problem.

So why is it these DTG printers require SO much maintenance? I understand the white ink is very thick, and has issues, but I'm terrified to get this printer if I'm not printing 5 shirts a day with it. Post after post about how much maintenance is necessary with them. I've read about the Viper's WIMS system, and AnaJets closed loop systems how they help, but it seems even these printers need massive, daily maintenance.

Why is that? And which printers need the least? I'm not a tshirt shop - but I'd like to expand. But I dont want ANY piece of equipment that is more frustration than production. I've made thousands off my wide format Roland. I dont want a DTG to be the other way around...


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## kevrokr (Feb 26, 2007)

Keeping up with the maintenance of a DTG printer is crucial but should only take a couple of minutes per day. The main difference between a DTG printer and your Roland is the nature of the thicker inks. The pigment in the white inks is much thicker and more susceptible to drying when exposed to air. Of course DTG printers run alot more smoothly when they are used more often, but HAVING to print 5 shirts daily may be a little overkill. If you do the daily maintenance and are sure that the printer is printing correctly, you shouldn't have to print that much. Of course on the other side of the coin is the fact that if you are not able to print at least 3 days per week because the work is not there, maybe this type of printing is not a match for your business model.

A good way to gauge if DTG printing is a good match is to find a DTG printer in your area that will be able to print good quality shirts in a reasonable amount of time...offer this kind of service to your customers/sell this kind of service, then come back and look at the sales numbers opposed to the amount you WOULD HAVE made if you had a machine. This way you can review the numbers and see if DTG printing will be a money maker BEFORE you make a machine purchase. You will not see the kind of return you would if you were doing the actual printing, but then again, you do not have machine payments that you are working for.


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## DAGuide (Oct 2, 2006)

Just curious if you are running white ink or any of the metallic inks through your Roland printer? Several dtg printers can sit dormant for a period of days without any issues when they only have CMYK inks in them. I personally had a GT-541 in my office and I would go out of town to trade shows at least once a month. I would be lucky to run the printer once every 2 weeks. The only time I did a cleaning was when I replaced the black ink cartridge - which would go beyond several months.

Everything changes when you go beyond CMYK inks. I have spoken to several people that have used the Roland white / metallic inks and have experienced similar challenges to dtg printing. In addition, I imagine the majority of items you run through your printer have substantially less ability to develop lint. So imagine if you were running t-shirt material through your printer. How much more often do you think you need to clean your capping station?

Making the comparison from one type of digital printer to another is not a proper analogy. This would be like saying printing waterbased discharge ink should be as easy as plastisol ink in screen printing. They are two completely different types of inks that require the user to do things differently. DTG printing for dark garments does take more time to maintain the printer. It is not for everyone.

Hope this information helps you through your decision making process.

Mark


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## allamerican-aeoon (Aug 14, 2007)

Mark had great point. Dtg white ink has TI02 which requires more maintenance/clean up than other digital printers. Others are only have cymk or some lights. Roland, Mimaki, Epson --- etc are printing on white paper, poly or vinyl--etc. never on black cotton. 
It is not printer it is because of ink which we do not have a choice if we want vibrant colors on dark shirts.
Cheers! Beers are on me always.


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## spiderx1 (Oct 12, 2009)

All good point above. It is possible to run most DTGs in a Dual CMYK mode, eliminating the white ink. But you can only print on white or light colored shirts. Then if you decide you want to deal with the white required for dark shirts you have the capability. CMYK only requires very little maintenance. The Titanium Dioxide TIO2 is the pain as it has larger particles and tends to turn to rubber if left sit a long time and dry out. I also have a Versacamm. And you are right the maintenance is minimal. But if you had one with white ink you would experience similar problems.


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## binki (Jul 16, 2006)

my personal opinion on these is because someone thought it was a good idea to take a paper printer and put textile inks in them and expect that anyone who had one would run it around the clock at $400/liter for ink. well that didn't work out so well and on top of that the ink was not really well designed for the print head or the other way around. that is why you have all the 'maintenance' to keep the beast running. 

just my 2c from being in this biz for over 5 years with one of these anchors...er money makers..... oh, i just found out that the print head for the 2200 has increased over 100% in price and the parts are possibly going to be limited or not available at all. so much for that investment in my business.

this is where we make money:

#1 Embrodery
#2 Apparel vinyl (glitter included)
#3 Rhinestones (soon to be #2)
#4 Everything else


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## beanie357 (Mar 27, 2011)

We changed to cmyk only. Our maintenance changed to minimal.
Our dark jobs were small jobs. Our cmyk was our bread and butter.
We make moola this way.
Yay!
We use neoflex and our prints are killer. We get WOWS from the customers.
Double YAY.


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## castawaygraphics (Sep 26, 2011)

Beanie357 so do you not do anything with white with your DTG?


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## beanie357 (Mar 27, 2011)

Nope. Love our neoflex.
Just did not make money with white.
May try again in future.
But we make moola with cmyk.
If we did not screen print, may have stayed with white.


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## treefox2118 (Sep 23, 2010)

We screen print, too. Wish I skipped the white underbase option. Just not profitable enough for us.

CMYK on light shirts is crazy profitable.
White underbase on dark shirts is high labor, high ink cost, high sales price, customers balk.


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## shughey (Jul 22, 2010)

treefox2118 said:


> We screen print, too. Wish I skipped the white underbase option. Just not profitable enough for us.
> 
> CMYK on light shirts is crazy profitable.
> White underbase on dark shirts is high labor, high ink cost, high sales price, customers balk.


I agree on the white. CMYK is very profitable........but anything requiring a white ink underbase is a waste to em.

Customers hate the cost....it is very hard for a wholesale customer to mark it up and make money. Maybe for someone who has a walk in retail shop and seels the shirts direct then maybe it is not as bad.

I only do it as a favor so to speak..so I can get the CMYK sales also.

Wish at this point the white was never invented....wish i never offered it.

scott


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## treefox2118 (Sep 23, 2010)

shughey said:


> I agree on the white. CMYK is very profitable........but anything requiring a white ink underbase is a waste to em.
> 
> Customers hate the cost....it is very hard for a wholesale customer to mark it up and make money. Maybe for someone who has a walk in retail shop and seels the shirts direct then maybe it is not as bad.
> 
> ...


I am redesigning my storefront in August and there will be 3 samples on white, light color and black, hung above menu boards with the prices.

White underbase is going to be marked up way more. Too many steps for failure, plus the first wash is a risk.


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## tigertail777 (Apr 14, 2009)

Just curious, having never used a DTG machine is it possible to hand silk screen a white under base and then print on that with a DTG? Or would you have to use a plastisol ink for that, making it too thick to really be pleasing to customers...or for that matter would the DTG machine be in registration enough to do that?


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## treefox2118 (Sep 23, 2010)

You absolutely could but registration would suck.

You'd have to use water safe emulsion, and use your dtg platen. I've been considering it actually. No drying after printing white, just print the white via screen and push it into the dtg right away.


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## lizziemaxine (Nov 14, 2007)

I acquired a used Brother GT541 in December. It wasn't maintained all that well but after the tech serviced it I have not had any problems. I've been busy lately and a few days ago realized I hadn't had the machine on in over 2 weeks. Friday I turned it on, did a cleaning and test print and then printed one shirt. Worked like a champ. Got to love the Brother equipment (and the no-white ink format).


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## shughey (Jul 22, 2010)

treefox2118 said:


> You absolutely could but registration would suck.
> 
> You'd have to use water safe emulsion, and use your dtg platen. I've been considering it actually. No drying after printing white, just print the white via screen and push it into the dtg right away.


My version of this was to screen a white box slightly larger than the graphic...and screw registration. Well you have to be close enough the artwork was not grossly off inside a white box. Nothing to large verses the artwork but enough you could get it close without losing a shirt because you were off a few pixels one way or another.

I was not sure if the plastisol inks would allow the CMYK inks to stick so...I thought maybe you could somehow use the white DTg inks with a real fine mesh screen and spray it.....or something.
Then i thought...a..screw it...slap some light C/M/K Dupont inks in the white inks slots and forget it.


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## 102557 (Mar 6, 2010)

tigertail777 said:


> Just curious, having never used a DTG machine is it possible to hand silk screen a white under base and then print on that with a DTG? Or would you have to use a plastisol ink for that, making it too thick to really be pleasing to customers...or for that matter would the DTG machine be in registration enough to do that?


there is a whole thread related to this concept

http://www.t-shirtforums.com/direct-garment-dtg-inkjet-printing/t154138.html#post918311


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## Zippy Doodah (Jul 10, 2011)

beanie357 said:


> We changed to cmyk only. Our maintenance changed to minimal.
> Our dark jobs were small jobs. Our cmyk was our bread and butter.
> We make moola this way.
> Yay!
> ...


 What color shirts, not including white, can you print with just cmyk? Do you just print light colors or are you able to print medium colors too, such as red, columbia blue, orange, etc. Do you have to make two passes with color on colored shirts? I'm curious, because I have a DTG printer that is all refurbished and I haven't put white ink in it yet. I'm just starting out and my business will, I'm sure, take a while to establish. I don't do screen printing and my business model is more 1's and small custom orders. Do you think I could get away with not printing white?


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## DAGuide (Oct 2, 2006)

When printing just CMYK inks, you can print on any color garment as long as the artwork your printing is darker than the color of the garment. The best example I can think of is you can print a blonde Caucasian lady on a pink shirt, but the lady will have strawberry colored hair and look sunburn. Alternatively, you can print an all black name / number on a dark red shirt and it will be just as visible as it would be if you had a white underbase under it.

Mark


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## treefox2118 (Sep 23, 2010)

I will post some pics of CMYK on colored garments on my easy t printer FAQ site in early August.


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## shughey (Jul 22, 2010)

I know you asked this to a previous poster...but I will input as i regularly print to light colored shirts.

Actually I print more on light colored shirts than i do on white actually.

I have tested a bunch of light to medium colored shirts for which ones I can print full colors on and get good results.

Obviously since the inks are transparent AND we do not print white ink then any color in the shirt will or can have an affect on the printed artwork. Darker the shirt color the more this becomes an issue.

So, since I use Gikdan 2000's or Anvils equivelant line I will refer to there colors.

Ash and natural cotton shirts print with very good color accuracy and only suffer in the faintest of light inks colors..like a pale yellow or anything close to white...but so slightly it is almost never an issue and you can fiddle with saturation levels to comp that.

My next favorite is ice grey...this works very well for most any graphic.

I should note that almost exclusively anything i print uses a photo in it along with text and added graphics so i am always dealing with phot color accuracy. I will accept minor color shifts due to the shirt color....how much and where depends on the design.

Anyway next.. the lighter tans work fine such as sand, cobblestone and tan....although tan is just starting to get dark enough to throw off some medium light ink colors..but again a little fiddling with saturation and brightness and you can comp some of that. Sand and cobblestone are my overal favorite colors to use in shirts.

Next you get to Athletic heather which is a bit darker than ash and as long as the graphic has rich medium colors it will work real well. Starts to get tough to print anything with light yellows etc and expect color accuracy....you will certainly see the color but it is starting to shade off. Same with colors like Prairie which i use also...but only for darker colored designs...and again this is a shirt color that is at the end of what I like to print on without white ink...and since i hate white inks that is about the end of the medium colored shirt range.

Obviously if the graphic is dark like a solid black text then you can certainly print on almost any medium colored shirts.


Really depends on how rich the colors are in the graphic, or dark I guess you could say, along with how much of a color shift can you take. obviously anything that is white or near white in the graphic is now the color of the shirt and some designs even on light pastel shirts just look like poop.

So it depends on what you are printing as well as the shirt color....but you would probably be pleased to see what you can actually print on in the lighter to medium colored shirts.

Basically the shirts I use are, Ash, Natural, Sand, Ice grey ( Cobblestone from Anvil ).......these i consider to have minimal effects on colors....next Tan, Heather, Light pink, Light Blue, sometimes Pistachio or Seren green ( also Khaki from Anvil)...these are my medium colors that will have some effects but ones i have a good chance of overcoming with sat or hue changes...enough to retain majority of color accuracy. 

Last would be colors like Prairie green etc...these will affect the graphics no matter what you do BUT....some nice looking results are obtainable as many people like that subdued look amazingly....and actually Prairie green and Moss from Anvil are a popular shirt for me especially with men who like darker shirts. 
scott


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## beanie357 (Mar 27, 2011)

Shrug hey is on the money.
We tested gildan and 11 colors were acceptable.
Yeah shughey for testing. My kinda folks.


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## shughey (Jul 22, 2010)

I forgot one other benefit to using non white shirts.

Atleast this has been my view on this. When printing on shirts like the gildan Sand...or natural for instance. The graphics do not look as faded as the shirt wears down due to laundry etc. Of course fading is not what really happens even on white...usually the fibers are wearing. but...on a white shirt it makes this wear way more noticeable as the white fiber that is under the DTG inks shows due to wear.

Now on the shirts that have some color like the sand or Natural....even tan etc....the wear does not "look" so blaring like it does on stark white cottons.

Could it also be due to soemthing in the bl;eaching of whites etc...maybe..not sure but the graphics just wear better on non white shirts.

I would also say that ash seems to be about as obvious as white with wear....and I even use a poly pretreat since ash has between 1-2% poly blend in it.

Just what I have seen in the past year and half with my own shirts that I print for myself.

scott


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