# DAS rhinestone system or small automated machine?



## YourLogoGear (Jul 5, 2011)

Can anyone provide average production times for using the DAS rhinestone system as compared to a small automated machine such as Ioline's Crystal Press or the CAMS 1V-2P? Thanks in advance! Most designs would be 2-4 colors.


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## allhamps (Mar 15, 2007)

Average production times are only part of the question you need to ask. Are you able to dedicate a person or people to doing nothing but making transfers if you go with the template (DAS) system, or are you going to be the main focal person and need to do other things also?

Production speed wise, the CAMS machine is faster. There are folks who will tell you that they can produce transfers with the templates faster than the Ioline. In some cases and after some experience, that is true. A 4 color 1,000 stone design runs in about 40 min on an Ioline.

I started out with the DAS template system, and still use it now if I'm doing single color transfers and have some time. I now run 2 Ioline machines because:

Didn't have the ability to get the more expensive CAMS at the time
Couldn't keep doing transfers because it was "hands on" and I needed to be able to fill loose rhinestone orders and produce custom designs.
Basically, the Ioline machines became my workers which gave me the ability to do several things during the day. If you have the ability to go with a faster machine, I would suggest you do so, if you anticipate your volume to be able to support the $15,000+ price.


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## YourLogoGear (Jul 5, 2011)

Thanks Slick. How long does the same 4-color 1,000 stone design take using the DAS system after you've got the template setup and ready to go (assuming that the Ioline time is based on when you hit "go").


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## ShaggyDog (May 28, 2012)

Cams can do about 120 stones per min.(don't quote me) With a 4 color on a 2 bin machine, you have to change out the stones in the middle. It's a bit of a pita if you are making more than 1 transfer. You won't want to take the tape off the machine in the middle, you will never get it to line up again.

DAS really is about the software, not about the system, you still have to cut templates or change designs to go to the machine. DAS is manual vs machine which is automated. 

There are lots rhinestone software programs out there. All are manual used for designing. How you make your transfers is really what you are asking. Are you going to cut template material and make transfers by hand or invest in a machine which Slick nicely points out, becomes a worker bee for you leaving you available to do other things.


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## allhamps (Mar 15, 2007)

I haven't done a 4-color template in years, but when I was using them the most, I could crank out that same design by hand in about 20 mins. I also liked the DAS template system because they have the Smart Frames, and I didn't have to worry about things not lining up, or taking a lot of time trying to eyeball the alignment.

However, since speed was not my issue, I went with the Ioline because it is pretty much a maintenace free hands off machine, and it freed me up to do other things while the transfers were running. I have not used a CAMS so I don't really know how long it would take to actually run a design this size, but I do know they work quicker.


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## YourLogoGear (Jul 5, 2011)

Slick - does most of that 20 minutes come into play due to the multiple colors or the stone count? For instance (and I know these are all just estimates on your part), how long do you think a 2-color; 1000 stone design would take? And then how long do you think 2 and 4 color designs would take if the stone count were only 500? Thanks again for your help with these questions.


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## YourLogoGear (Jul 5, 2011)

Thanks for the feedback ShaggyDog. I'm trying to collect the necessary information to run an ROI analysis on manual vs machine. Do you have a CAMS? Their marketing materials make it sound pretty simple to switch out the stones in the middle but it sounds like that may not be the case? Our business model is to sell multiple shirts with the same design to small groups so I'm interested in learning more about this particular point. Thanks again!


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## allhamps (Mar 15, 2007)

Really, I think it is a combination of both. The more stones, the longer the brush in time, and then of course the color change. Mind you, this is after about a year of doing this. When I first started doing templates, that same design probably took me about 45 mins to do one. You gain skill and dexterity as you go along. Of course, we didn't have the ease of stuff like sticky flock and the "new and improved" template material of today.

As you gain skill, it is very easy to do 30 or 40 single color transfers of 300-500 stones in an hour. I would guestimate you could add about 3-5 min per transfer for each color or additional 100-150 stones added. The one thing that will really help is if you have more than one tray to use when you have to do more than one color/size. I never invested in additional trays, so I had a lot of "wasted" time with emptying out one color/size from the tray before I could move on to the next. Multiple trays allows you to simply move down the line like an assembly worker.


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## allhamps (Mar 15, 2007)

YourLogoGear said:


> Thanks for the feedback ShaggyDog. I'm trying to collect the necessary information to run an ROI analysis on manual vs machine.....


I think one of the things you will need to keep very much in mind is the complexity of your designs. When I was doing templates, as many still do, the focus was to avoid ss06 stones, and avoid different sizes of stones as much as possible, to not only save on template material, but to minimize the transfer making process.

Our customers are evolving, and many are no longer satisfied with the "spacy" look or lack of definition in a design because you are trying to work with only one size stone. I've had designs where mostly one size stone worked, but then you have those 20 or less places where you really do need to fill in an ss06 stone, or ss10 stone if you are using larger stones, to get a nice finished look. Do you cut a second template or put them in by hand? Something to consider


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## YourLogoGear (Jul 5, 2011)

Thanks Slick! This will help me greatly with my decision. Another question I have about the template system is how close together you can position the stones. Any thoughts on that? I'm assuming that something like the attached wouldn't be a problem but how much more densely populated of a design can the template material withstand?


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## YourLogoGear (Jul 5, 2011)

allhamps said:


> Really, I think it is a combination of both. The more stones, the longer the brush in time, and then of course the color change. Mind you, this is after about a year of doing this. When I first started doing templates, that same design probably took me about 45 mins to do one. You gain skill and dexterity as you go along. Of course, we didn't have the ease of stuff like sticky flock and the "new and improved" template material of today.
> 
> As you gain skill, it is very easy to do 30 or 40 single color transfers of 300-500 stones in an hour. I would guestimate you could add about 3-5 min per transfer for each color or additional 100-150 stones added. The one thing that will really help is if you have more than one tray to use when you have to do more than one color/size. I never invested in additional trays, so I had a lot of "wasted" time with emptying out one color/size from the tray before I could move on to the next. Multiple trays allows you to simply move down the line like an assembly worker.


I saw this after I posted my last response. As you can see from the baseball, there are multiple size stones used here in both the red and clear areas but could probably be avoided if designed a bit more strategically.


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## charles95405 (Feb 1, 2007)

with the cams, you can do rhinestones or you can do rhinestones....with the DAS system..or winpcsign 2012 or any of the other systems that you cut your template on vinyl, you can do rhinestones, then heat press vinyl or outdoor signs...I equate my vinyl cutter as almost a money machine


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## ifusion (Jun 3, 2011)

I've had experience with 3 different techniques....

1) ioline Crystall Press 1
2) laser cut templates with brushing
3) cams 1v2p

rhinestones is a 7pm to 10pm and weekend business for me, since I have a day job. With the CP 1, I could only take smaller jobs because it was doing about 30-40 stones per minute max and when everything was all said and done, 5-10% of them would be upside down and require manual flips... Yes you could setup a 2500 stone run and walk away from it for 2 hours, but you'd spend another hour plus, cleaning it up... CP2 is rumord to be SLIGHTLY faster, so it may be a little better. I've never seen one so I cant comment.

I own a laser for my laser engraving hobby so I dabbled with a few templates. I never quite got the brushing technique down... I think I made my holes too small, but it seems like in theory for a large one color design you could do it in a matter of a minute or 2. However, if your using a cutter with flock, it seems it may have a high overhead for creating custom templates.

Last, with the CAMS, I look at that as my Cadillac. Its fast an effective. The draw backs are the loud compressor and the smaller table size 9x11, but the speed and accuracy makes up for it. A 2000 stone design on the CAMS machine takes me around 15 minutes. On a good run I have virtually no clean up for upside down stones... at max, on a 2000 design I have 5 upside down stones (1-2 minutes of clean up). I can run $200 in transfers in 2 hours or less so it keeps me happy.


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## YourLogoGear (Jul 5, 2011)

Thanks ifusion. Do you take on many jobs that are more than 2-color on the cams 1v2p? I'd like to understand more about the time and effort it takes to deal with that process when you're making multiple shirts with the same design. Thanks again!


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## BML Builder (Jul 8, 2008)

I have to agree with everyone else. It is definitely faster to use a machine, especially the cams machine, but the 2 color machine you do have to change out the colors if you are running a 3 or more color design. I have a couple of small vacuums that I use to clean out the hoppers and change out the colors so that helps. But if you are running a lot of the same design you would have to run one design at a time or if they are small design you can gang up the designs on one sheet of tape and run several of the designs at a time. That is also how I do patches on my embroidery machines so it works great both ways. Now if the design is a large design then you would be running one design at a time and it would take longer, but it still usually only takes a few minutes to run a design. I run a lot of 900 to 1000 stone designs and they usually only take about 5-10 minutes to run the complete design on the Cams. As far as the DAS system Charles is correct with the fact that you can use it for multi-decoration designs. Also you will want to have a good program to create your designs even if you have a machine. The GemMaster software isn't the best program to create your designs with.


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## ifusion (Jun 3, 2011)

I sell a lot of generic transfers and I keep them to 2 color max. I have a few transfers that are 3 colors, and nothing really 4 color or more... that would be custom work only.

When I do the 3 color ones, I dont dread it, but it slows me down a little.

I recently developed a little technique I'll share. I had to run a job that was 4 colors, about 15 pieces. However the 4 colors were integreated but not tightly packed together. So I started by marking 4 black dots on the silicon pad, then I coverd them with clear tape (small pieces) so they wouldnt smear. I then put my transfer down over it and marked it with a marker over the dots so they alligned. I ran the first 2 colors for all the transfers, and then went back, placed the transfer back down, lined up the dots and ran the 2nd 2 colors and it worked great. Using 4 dots for alignment helps you get pretty good accuracy. And it didnt really take that long to line them up.


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## BML Builder (Jul 8, 2008)

Great idea ifusion! I have done that with other systems like DTG printing and embroidery, but hadn't really thought of it with the Cams, I'm not sure why. I will have to try it the next time I run a big order with 3 or more colors. Thanks!!


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## YourLogoGear (Jul 5, 2011)

Thanks for all the feedback! Another question I have about the template system is how close together you can position the stones. Any thoughts on that? I'm assuming that something like the below image wouldn't be a problem but how much more densely populated of a design can the template material withstand?

http://www.t-shirtforums.com/attach...e-system-small-automated-machine-dsc_0993.jpg


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## YourLogoGear (Jul 5, 2011)

BML Builder said:


> I have to agree with everyone else. It is definitely faster to use a machine, especially the cams machine, but the 2 color machine you do have to change out the colors if you are running a 3 or more color design. I have a couple of small vacuums that I use to clean out the hoppers and change out the colors so that helps. But if you are running a lot of the same design you would have to run one design at a time or if they are small design you can gang up the designs on one sheet of tape and run several of the designs at a time. That is also how I do patches on my embroidery machines so it works great both ways. Now if the design is a large design then you would be running one design at a time and it would take longer, but it still usually only takes a few minutes to run a design. I run a lot of 900 to 1000 stone designs and they usually only take about 5-10 minutes to run the complete design on the Cams. As far as the DAS system Charles is correct with the fact that you can use it for multi-decoration designs. Also you will want to have a good program to create your designs even if you have a machine. The GemMaster software isn't the best program to create your designs with.


Hi Marilyn,
What program do you recommend for creating designs? Can the DAS software work with the CAMS if we start with the template system and move to an automated machine later?


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## BML Builder (Jul 8, 2008)

You can't send your designs directly to the cams from DAS. You can create your designs from most rhinestone software and then export the file as a AI8 file and then open it in GemMaster. GemMaster is the software that comes with the Cams machine and it uses the .yng files. Although I have done some designing in GemMaster it isn't that great or easy for designing. There is also the Sierra HotFix software that has drivers for the Cams machines.


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## HotFix Tech (Mar 21, 2013)

The sierra Hot fix era is defiantly a huge improvement over Gemaster


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