# Manual Press Suggestions



## omnicow (Jun 3, 2008)

I have been trying and trying to do four color prints on the press that I have, and I have gotten so frustrated I'm ready to just sell it and upgrade to a better machine. I don't have micro registration on the press that I have, and I can't get a registration correct to save my life. I'll spend an entire day trying to get the screens all lined up, loosening them, tapping with a hammer, and every time I do I just end up back at square one with no progress. So, I'm looking to upgrade. When I bought all of my equipment, I was interested in screen printing but unfortunately I didn't take the time to research and jumped into what I thought was a good deal, I don't want to make that mistake again. So, I am just wondering if anyone has a suggestion on a good solid manual press, at least 4 colors, with micro-registration. From what I understand, a press with micro-registration has little screws that you can use to make adjustments on your registration if it is a little off, is that correct? If that is the case, that would be extremely beneficial, as I could just tweak it ever so slightly to finally get that oh-so-elusive perfect registration I've been looking for. I can't give up, I'm extremely passionate about screen printing and starting my clothing line, and I'm very motivated to work, but no matter how much I work I'm not getting anywhere with the press I have. Price is also an issue, as I don't have a whole lot of money, but quality is most important, so if I have to save up a little longer to get what I really need, then I will do that. Please help me, I want to make shirts so badly but I'm just not getting anywhere.


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## jlee199 (Mar 21, 2006)

I've been using an old Hopkins without micros. I've found that what has helped me the most was a pre-registration system. I made one using a sheet of plexiglass and a couple of 1X2s. Now my positives are in the same place on the screen and any adjustments are minor. I hope this helps.

John


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## out da box (May 1, 2007)

Hopkins 4c/4s with standard micros, not joystick kind.
Workhorse 4c/4s
Vastex hd series 4c/4s

all new for around 3k plus
you can find some used on ebay for 1.5k or less


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## macmiller (Jul 23, 2007)

hix premier 6/4, best manual for the $$ imo, i'm budgeting for one now.


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## tpitman (Jul 30, 2007)

Look around for used. I bought a 4 month old Vastex 2000HD 6/4 for $3000 a couple of years ago. Best money I ever spent. Bought the stuff to upgrade it to an 8/4.

There is good used stuff on Ebay and Craigslist. Budget as much as you can and be ready to jump on any deals. Additionally, you should really take the time to attend a show like the ISS shows where all the manufacturer's have their stuff on display, and where you can make someone show you how well it works. Even if you have to buy used, at least you'll know what to look for, and I also would avoid buying used unless you have actually seen one of the presses or know for sure that it is a good one. Workhorse, Vastex 2000, Hopkins BWM, Riley Hopkins (but without the joysticks, although some like them), M&R or Antec Legend. None of the crap that sells new on Ebay (although I occasionally see someone selling Riley Hopkins presses there) is worth a sh!t. If it says "EZ" it ain't. Those people don't hawk their stuff at the shows, and for a good reason. They'd be laughed out of the place.


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## ffokazak (Feb 23, 2006)

M+R Chameleon! 

Love mine.


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## MWallace (Mar 20, 2008)

Wow, that sounds really frustrating! 
Did you finally make a decision?


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## omnicow (Jun 3, 2008)

No, I haven't made a decision yet, I've been thinking over it all of the time. I am out in Kentucky and I don't know if there are any screen printing shows around here. The closest the ISS show gets would probably be Atlanta, and that's quite a drive from here. I don't think I'm going to sell all of my studio equipment, my job is supposed to be starting again in August, and then I could make enough money to buy a printer, I don't know what yet though. I've been thinking about a Vastex. They seem really well built, and I do like the raised platens because they can give you just a little bit more area to print on. I figured the best thing to do might be to keep practicing with this machine until I get good enough at screen printing to deserve a really expensive machine. I still have a lot to learn, and if I learn on a crappy machine it'll just be that much easier on a a good one.

Jlee199, with the pre-registration system, isn't your registration still slightly off when you put the screens onto the machine? I can get my registration close, but it always seems to be off just a touch. I don't know if it's because my machine's crappy or if I just need to get better at screen printing, probably the latter.


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## jezhangun (May 31, 2008)

how can you be so sure its your press? have you checked the films? do they line up? are your screens properly tensioned? is your off contact set properly? are your platens relatively level? does anything feel loose?.......a press is basically a hinge that pulls a screen down into a locking mechanism... thats it, I built one out of wood and printed many 4 color shirts with it in perfect register.....once you understand the basics of how and why screen printing works you can achieve great results on any press if you have the variables in check....
that being said some presses are better than others....my favorite manual presses are M&R I have had the same "Blue Max 2" since about 1994...and I wouldn't want to go back to the homemade one...but I could if I had to......
before you dump cash into any problem find out what the real problem is


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## jlee199 (Mar 21, 2006)

I do have some adjustments that have to be done, but the adjustments are minor. I've found that if the positives are in the same place on each screen then it's just a matter of lining up the registration marks (sometimes this takes a tap of a hammer). But since using the preregistration system my frustration level has gone down signifacantly.

That's not to say that my next press isn't going to have micros. I realize that I have to make do with what I have but the next one will definitely have micros.

John


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## MWallace (Mar 20, 2008)

Good deal. 
Don't forget about all of the used presses to be had out there. I HIGHLY recommend you check out and place ads on Craigslist (the nearest big city is best) asking who has what, and don't post an offering price, just ask people what they have available. 
Also (very mild plug) check out sites that deal in used equipment (such as mine) to help give you an idea of what things are worth. Always check policies when dealing with a business; for example, my company sells on an as-is/where-is basis; it keeps our prices low and protects us, but you need to be sure to inspect the equipment before purchasing.


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## out da box (May 1, 2007)

Matt, good to see you on here. Funny you posted because I just sent the invoice to you for the Epson 4800. I have not inspected the unit, but I trust everything works as intented. Used equipment is an excellent way to go if you can get good- well maintained equipment at a bargain price.


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## MWallace (Mar 20, 2008)

out da box said:


> Matt, good to see you on here. Funny you posted because I just sent the invoice to you for the Epson 4800. I have not inspected the unit, but I trust everything works as intented. Used equipment is an excellent way to go if you can get good- well maintained equipment at a bargain price.


Good to see you, too! 

I'm still trying to get the basics of this stuff down. 
How do you feel about DTG as opposed to screenprinting? 

The reason I ask is if Omnicow is having too much trouble with the screenprinting registration, etc, it might just be worth the expense to switch to DTG or one of the other methods. 

I have been noticing a lot of opinion on the various T-Shirt forums I read that the industry standard seems to be slipping away from "messy, time-consuming screenprinting" to some of the other quicker, cleaner methods.


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## omnicow (Jun 3, 2008)

Nah, I'm not too interested in DTG printing. The style of printing that I'm doing I couldn't do with that format. I do a lot of large prints, (the last one I did was 17 x 25) and a lot of waterbased printing for the softer hand. I love the options that screen printing offers, I'm just not that good at it... Yet.


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## omnicow (Jun 3, 2008)

If you check out my website, you can see a couple of the shirts I've made so far. The Squid Pope shirt was printed with four colors, and in the pictures that I have up and from a distance, it looks fine. However, it you get close, you can see that some of the colors are off by what would be about one pixel on a computer. I can get really close but I can't get it absolutely perfect and that drives me insane. If I try to tap it with a hammer I'm going to move it WAAAAY more than I need to. (i say this because I have tried numerous times.) That's why I'm thinking I need to get something with micro so I can just dial in those little bitty tweaks, but honestly I have no idea if it really is that easy with micro registration.


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## moe_szys1ak (Jun 16, 2008)

omnicow,
If your registration is off by only a few pixels, why don't you add some really fine trapping to the colors you print first? Have you tried it and not liked the outcome?


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## omnicow (Jun 3, 2008)

I wanted to avoid that because it takes away a little detail, but I may end up having to as a last resort. I need to ask though, does that work with waterbased inks? I first printed the Squid Pope with plastisol over a discharge underbase, and I'm not happy with the plastisol, so I'm going to try again soon with a discharge underbase and Matsui 301 waterbased inks that allow you to use a higher mesh count. I just don't know if trapping works well with waterbased inks.


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## moe_szys1ak (Jun 16, 2008)

In my experience it works when printing dark inks over light inks, but that's all I've tried - like you I usually try to avoid trapping if at all possible. Light over dark may require a transparent underbase or two hits of the same color.


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## omnicow (Jun 3, 2008)

If I was going to do it, I imagine I would do discharge first, then white, then blue, and then lay my trapped black outline. I'm trying to avoid that if possible, however.


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## jezhangun (May 31, 2008)

are you using a back clamp or side clamp machine? .......back clamp presses with wooden screens are going to be tricky to get perfect registration on any press...not impossible but tricky, even with micros, its just the nature of the beast....if you get a new machine make sure to get side clamps.....


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## omnicow (Jun 3, 2008)

I've just got back clamps but I'm using aluminum frames. The thing I worry about the side clamps is, do they limit you to only using a particular sized frame?


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## jezhangun (May 31, 2008)

no more than back clamps, my M&R will accept 23x31 auto frames with a few adjustments and I belive the new M&R sidewinder manual press is buit to accept larger frames and platens.....
I saw you post that you printed a 17x25 image....you would have to order a large set of auto platens from M&R ......when printing "all over" type prints you are really getting into areas that manual presses aren't designed for.....you can do it but it will take a little creativity and ingenuity on your part.....why don't you take a snapshot of your press / setup and post it ,maybe we can help you think "outside of the box"


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## omnicow (Jun 3, 2008)

I got some pictures.

Here is one of my print heads:

http://www.wulfwear.com/images/printhead.jpg

Here's the entire print head assembly:

http://www.wulfwear.com/images/printheadassembly.jpg

Here is a large platen that I made for larger printing. Unfortunately, the piece that I cut this out of had a corner missing, so I'm missing a little bit of print area. This one will fill up a small mens shirt, but for large, and extra large I would need a larger one, and for women's sizes I would need smaller ones. My goal is to be able to print on the maximum area possible on any particular kind of shirt.

http://www.wulfwear.com/images/largeshirtboard.jpg

I think I got ripped off on this press. It's not very well built by modern standards. I have to shim the screens, not to set off contact, but to make them level, because the heads hold the screens drastically crooked. I can't register it worth a crap, and I don't know if that's just my fault or the press. In a week I will have $2,500 that I am either going to spend on various screen printing supplies such has a stockpile of inks and emulsions and screens, or if I can find a good six color press in my price range I will gladly purchase it. I really want to do six colors with my designs, and if I can't find a six color for less than that then I will just wait and practice with my 4 color for now.


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## jezhangun (May 31, 2008)

your press looks solid seriousely, I would just make some adjustments....first make sure the lock in registration bearings lock in snug
printhead2.jpg - Image - Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting

second we need to get your head to platen level set....loosen these two bolts
printheadassembly2.jpg - Image - Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting
pull the head down with no screen in it and "eyeball" the level plane with the top of the platen then tighten it back up...put a screen in it and check it out ....your platen may need leveling ( I can't see from the pics where that set of adjustments are but you probably do have them under the platens) if the off contact changes from the front of the platen to the back.....if these are in check you should be good to go

with " all over" prints most printers build in a spread in the artwork to compensate for registration problems...3 pixels in a 300ppi design in photoshop or 1 pt in a vector program should be more than enough to fudge the art and still look nice.....how are you making those big films? tiling art? or is it one big sheet?


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## omnicow (Jun 3, 2008)

There are no adjustments to level the platen. The platen is just a piece of cabinet material screwed to a block of wood with a metal bracket on it. It seems that shimming is the only way to make the screen level. you said that I could make the screen level with the platen, but aren't you supposed to print slightly off contact? Also, you mention trapping the artwork, but no one has said yet if that works with waterbased inks. I'm worried that the colors will bleed if they're printed on top of one another. Has anyone tried this?


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## MWallace (Mar 20, 2008)

Have you tried padding the mallet with a sponge or (ahem) some trashed T-shirt? 

How well do your screens move against the surface? Could you coat them with something to let them move more easily? 

1 pixel's worth of distance could still be pretty visible with contrasting colors, so I do understand why you want to fix it. 

Would a straightedge of some sort help you line up outer edges? (I'm assuming not, but I have to ask) 

Remember, I'm not a pro, just trying to think outside the problem; it sounds like micro-registration really is what you need.


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## omnicow (Jun 3, 2008)

Forgive my ignorance, but I don't know what the mallet is. I don't really see a straightedge helping much, and none of the designs I'm doing are perfectly straight on the edge. I use a framing square to make sure that the designs are approximately in the same place on each screen. I think you're right about needing the micro-registration. I've pretty much given up on this press as I don't want to waste a lot of money on ruined shirts, plus I would like to move up to 6 colors anyway. In a related question, what do you think would be a fair asking price for the press that I have? I think I am going to sell it and start looking for a used 6 color.


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## jezhangun (May 31, 2008)

omnicow said:


> you said that I could make the screen level with the platen, but aren't you supposed to print slightly off contact? Also, you mention trapping the artwork, but no one has said yet if that works with waterbased inks. I'm worried that the colors will bleed if they're printed on top of one another. Has anyone tried this?


by "even or level with" I meant... "parallell to" build in your off contact there, however much you want .....1/8" or less if poss unless your screens are super loose then a little more will help .... at the end of your screen where the neck of the shirt rests tape a paint stick or piece of card board to the screen to shim in a little off contact out at the end of the print if necessary ....
when tapping with the hammer/mallet slightly loosen the screen clamp bolts so that the screen will move when you tap it "gently" into register...... be careful not to overtighten the clamps when you get it in...
and be careful spinning the upper carousel with the screens in it , back clamp machines are notorious for slipping out of register ...


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## jezhangun (May 31, 2008)

as far as trapping the artwork , my only advice is "try it" if it don't work don't print it ,keep trying new things and learn from them good or bad...thats how we better ourselves


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## MWallace (Mar 20, 2008)

omnicow said:


> Forgive my ignorance, but I don't know what the mallet is. I don't really see a straightedge helping much, and none of the designs I'm doing are perfectly straight on the edge. I use a framing square to make sure that the designs are approximately in the same place on each screen. I think you're right about needing the micro-registration. I've pretty much given up on this press as I don't want to waste a lot of money on ruined shirts, plus I would like to move up to 6 colors anyway. In a related question, what do you think would be a fair asking price for the press that I have? I think I am going to sell it and start looking for a used 6 color.


A mallet is just a another word for hammer; sorry, I tend to substitute words upon occasiona. 

Maybe I am just missing it, but I don't actually know what kind of press you have. 
What's the info on it? 
Brand: 
Model: 
Model No: 
Colors: 
Stations: 
Extra equipment that comes with it: 
(flash cure, exposure unit, etc) 
Consumables that will come with it: 
(Not likely any real value, but they might help swing the deal) 

Will you help provide support for whoever buys it? 
Is it still under any sort of warranty? 
Will you pay the shipping? 
What will it cost you to prepare this thing for travel? 

My company always sells as-is/where-is, for example. This means "You have to haul it out at your own expense, and we are not responsible if there is something wrong with it." We also invite potential buyers to send a technician or come inspect any unit they are interested in purchasing. 

I'll check back in on this tomorrow; it's a nice break from the grind.


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## omnicow (Jun 3, 2008)

Brand, Model, Etc. are unknown. It's probably a homemade press. It is 4 color, 3 station. As far as offering support, I'm pretty novice to the screen printing world so I don't know how much support I could offer, but if they are interested in learning the basics, I could teach them the little that I know. The best thing I could probably do for them as far as support would be to point them in the direction of this forum, most of the things I have learned I've either learned from here or through trial and error. I've seen some posts on Craigslist of people looking for similar equipment, so I was thinking about contacting them, but I don't know what price to suggest. If I do sell it on Craigslist to someone locally, I'll take it to them as long as I can get a decent price for it. There wouldn't really be anything involved in preparing it for travel, just picking it up and putting it on a trailer. I was thinking somewhere within the $1000-$1500 range but I don't know if that's very high or low. I have been looking around at used machines and haven't seen many that were in the $3000 range, however those are professionally built presses with micro registration so I would imagine they command a much higher price. I am only selling the press, as I plan to stay in screen printing and continue starting my clothing line. I just want to sell this press so I can have more money to put toward a better one.


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## MWallace (Mar 20, 2008)

"I'll check back in on this tomorrow" HA! 
Sorry it took so long to get back, I've been swamped!

Well, with the info you have provided, I would start by pricing out 4-color 3-station manual presses (there aren't many) and from there go to 4/4 and 4/2 presses. I didn't find any used 4/3 machines for sale on a two minute search, but that doesn't mean the are not out there. 
The used off-brand 4/4's I found run between 2k -3k, and the 4/2's are pretty hard to find for comparison, so you are better off just knocking an arbitrary amount (like 20 or 40%) off of the 4/4 values you find. 

When you have done that, spend a couple of minutes and check out the prices on better presses than yours; things like a 6/4 or a 4/4 automatic can be found right now for under $2000, for just the press, so you need to make sure you are in line with that, and price yourself accordingly. One important thing you need to do is make sure YOU are satisfied with the price you set, and if you are not, then find a way to add things to your offer until you ARE satisfied with the deal. 

It sounds like your stated value of $1000-$1500 is about right, to be honest, but be willing to offer up some additional service at the top end of that (limited in your case, I understand). If you find it is not selling within a few weeks, drop your asking price a bit, and post a new ad; don't just edit your last one. If you really feel like getting crazy, post an ad for it in different sections of Craigslist a few times a week, that way you will be toward the top of the searches most of the time. 

Lastly, be very wary of shipping things yourself, or offering free shipping, unless you know exactly how much it will cost in the worst case scenario. 

When promising local delivery and set-up, that is one thing, but you still have a lot of liability to cover yourself with that way, and the goal is to get this thing out with your money to invest in another machine; that cannot be done if you end up spending it all on shipping or having to go fix it a bunch of times. 

Given your lack of experience in the field, consider finding a local technician/certified repair service who will give you an estimate based on photos or is willing to drop by for free and tell you what they would charge, or just pass out the number of their service if they don't mind. 

Best of luck!


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