# Retail quality Dye Sublimation T-shirts



## neebo (Apr 12, 2007)

Hi,

I have been reading through this great forum for a few weeks and need some help. I have decided to start dye sublimating onto Vapor Apparel T-shirts for retail selling and need your experiences please.

I have opted for Sawgrass Sublijet IQ ink as it seems to have the blackest black ink and good support would you guys agree? Is there a big difference with Artainium UV+ and Sublijet IQ?

Printer wise, I am looking at either the Epson 4800 with 220ml cartridges or the R1800 with a bulk ink system. I feel the 4800 would make a better long term investment and easier maintenance, would you agree?

Thank you all for your various posts that helped me understand the whole process.


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## ChameleonPrints (Apr 7, 2007)

My experience has been with Artanium inks and I have been quite happy with them. I can't say that I have had much experience with the Sawgrass Sublijet IQ. 

However, when it comes to printers I am curious why you would go with the more expensive 8 color systems? While the 8 color system may do well in making more realistic photos on photographic paper, in my opinion you will not get any extra benefit on a shirt over a much cheaper 6 color printer. I run 2 1280s with refillable spongeless cartridges so that I can save money by buying my ink in bulk. Paying for the pre-filled cartridges will make your costs significantly higher and will cut into your expected profits. If you go with an 8 color system, then you need to go with some type of continuous flow system or spongeless refillable cartridges to keep your ink costs lower.


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## rusty (Feb 9, 2007)

I use Sublijet IQ and an R1800, and am happy with it, although I can't compare it to anything. I have the continuous flow ink system. I don't think the # of inks in a printer has much to do with the cost. The same amount of ink is used on a print, regardless of how many heads are doing the printing. With 8 inks, you just have to refill less often than 6 color printer. And of course a 4 head printer will need refilling twice as often as a 8 head printer (assuming the same size carts/bags). Of course with 8 heads, you have twice the probability that a head will get clogged as a 4 head, but I haven't had much trouble with clogged heads, and I only use the printer about once a week.

I chose not to go with the 1280 because they haven't been manufactured for a while. They are old technology and I didn't want something that old that I will be counting on for hopefully years to come. Ink manufactures are focusing on the new printers for all their accessories rather than on an obsolete model.


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## BRC (Mar 27, 2007)

If you only print black then Sublijet would be better, but for me I get better colors from Artanium than I did from Sublijet. I didn't like the PowerDriver. I found it easier to adjust my colors in Photshop and use the ICC profile to get true colors than to let the driver decide by clicking photo or text or however many other options it has( I ran out of ink before getting what I wanted). 

The 1800 or the 4800 are both good options, the 4800 is a heavier duty printer if you plan on heavy use. Since you are just starting out you might consider a C-88 to get your feet wet, unless you feel you need the larger format. Dye sublimation can get a bit trying at times and the small printers are a lot cheaper for when you want to take a baseball bat to it or park it in a corner and forget you ever saw it like so many people end up doing.


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## neebo (Apr 12, 2007)

Thank you all for your help and advice. It seems like I am changing my mind on the ink and maybe going for Artainium UV+. Also I think the R1800 might be a better option for now.

Anyone using Vapor Apparel? are the results retail quality?

Many Thanks again


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## rusty (Feb 9, 2007)

neebo said:


> Anyone using Vapor Apparel? are the results retail quality?


Yes you CAN get retail quality results. The thin performance fabric presents some challenges that some have never overcome, such as leaving paper lines and shine. But it's possible. The basic T's are much easier to work with, but you need a lot of ink and high release paper to make a good image on them.

I use Sublijet IQ, so I can't comment on Artanium with Vapor.

One of the best looking shirts I've seen Sublimation done with is the WICKid moisture wicking shirts. They turn out beautiful. But they cost about twice as much as the Vapors.


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## D.Evo. (Mar 31, 2006)

Hi Neebo,

I use an Epson 4000 with Artainium and print on Vapor.
I'm very happy with the results I can achieve with this combination.

As far as I have heard some smaller ink jet printers tend to clog a bit. 
If you are using cartridges you may find you are going through them fairly quickly. CIS System is the way to go to keep your cost down, IMHO.

When it comes to clogging - it seem to be happening more often if you don't use your printer every day. Make sure you run a nozzle check every time before the job. Epson 4000 is "self cleaning", I had it for 2 years and can't recall any serious problems with it - had to do one power clean a long while ago after I didn’t use it for weeks. I'm content with my Epson 4000  – but who knows something may go wrong tomorrow?/*#!

I know what Rusty means about paper lines and shine on Vapor micro performance - patience and a bit of experimenting with pressure; time and heat will help you to get rid of this problem as I have. Also, I believe at the end of last year Vapor's micro fabric was improved and the last batch I got is much more resilient to shine and press marks. 

High release paper is definitely the way to go.

Good luck!


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## icyjay (Apr 4, 2007)

Rusty, 

Your refillable spongless carts you are running through your 1280's did you get those from conde? I just got the spongless refillable carts for my C88, havent installed them yet but wondering if you have the same carts how they are working for you?


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## rusty (Feb 9, 2007)

I think that was Kris with the 1280's.


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## neebo (Apr 12, 2007)

Hi Tania,

Many Thanks for your comments. One question I have for you is are you using an automatic press? The reason I ask is that I have decided to buy an Insta 728 automatic air pressure press. I read also that you need to press Vapor lightly so are automatic presses able to press lightly?

Thank you for your assistance


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## D.Evo. (Mar 31, 2006)

Sorry, Neebo, can't really comment on automatic presses - mine is manual. 
To my knowlege, except for some very old heat presses, you can adjust the pressure on both auto and manual presses.

In the description of Insta that I found on the web it says "Fully adjustable pressure control (pneumatic)":
Insta® 728 Digital Automatic Swing Away Heat Transfer Press / Heat Transfer Machine

So I suppose, that means you can adjust the pressure to "light".


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## Susie (Oct 19, 2007)

I was looking at the same combo as you Neebo. I was under the impression that the extended carts for the 4800 are cheaper than CIS and more trouble-free. According to the manufacturer, sublijet medium coverage would be about $0.35 for 7x10 and about $0.23 for Artainium on the 4800 w/220ml. I don't know - that seems pretty cheap to me. The R1800 is a 13" right? The Epson 4800 is 17". I was thinking if I got a bigger printer that I could print larger than the press, thereby eliminating press marks from paper. And maybe I would get two presses, a smaller and a larger, so I wouldn't waste too much paper (trying to be as eco-friendly as poss.) These are the issues that have been driving me.
What do you go with eventually, Neebo? Any success?


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## rusty (Feb 9, 2007)

Susie said:


> I was looking at the same combo as you Neebo. I was under the impression that the extended carts for the 4800 are cheaper than CIS and more trouble-free. According to the manufacturer, sublijet medium coverage would be about $0.35 for 7x10 and about $0.23 for Artainium on the 4800 w/220ml.


That's a flat out lie. We've all learned not to believe ANYTHING that Sawgrass says. All they care about is lining their pockets before their patent runs out. Keep in mind that this is the same company telling people that ChromaBlast is the equivalent of Sublimation for cotton. Bologny. That being said, using the MultiRip driver uses much less ink than using Sawgrass' PowerDriver, so that's a major factor in ink cost.



Susie said:


> The R1800 is a 13" right?


Right.



Susie said:


> The Epson 4800 is 17". I was thinking if I got a bigger printer that I could print larger than the press, thereby eliminating press marks from paper.


You don't have to have a larger printer than your press to eliminate press marks. You just need your paper size to be larger than your *pressing area*. So you could print on an 8.5" x 11" and then use a 8" x 10" Teflon pillow or vapor foam piece under your shirt, and you will eliminate the paper lines, even if it's a giant press. Does that make sense?


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## Susie (Oct 19, 2007)

Thanks for the input Rusty. Does anyone know how much it really costs to use these inks in the 4800 carts? Too bad one company owns both inks. Good tip about the Rip. The PowerDriver is probably engineered to use as much ink as possible. Now that wouldn't surprise me. I'm still trying to figure out which ink, printer and delivery method is the best value (time/money wise). I wanted very high quality colour output for cut and sew rash guards eventually. That's why I thought about the 8-colour Epson. I'll need a bigger printer later but I just wanted to start out with something more manageable while I learn the business. I have some t-shirt orders already (if they don't get fed up of waiting for me to make my mind up). I have a printing and graphic arts/computer programming background but this sublimation thing is new to me. There are just so many choices you start feeling a little swamped! The cost is not as important to me as simply having the proper equipment to do the job without going insane. But all over cut and sew prints will get expensive - so of course, that part of it comes into play. And if you have to choose between Sublijet - better blacks and Artainium - better colour(or the other way round) - geez, I don't know. I need good blacks and good colour! Don't we all!
Long post over,
Out


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## BRC (Mar 27, 2007)

I tried the Sublijet with Powerdriver and was not happy with the prints, they were all too dark for me. But I bought that system used and ran out of ink before I had a chance to do a lot of experimenting with it. I have used Artanium for 3 years with very few problems and didn't see any reason to spend more money to try an ink I didn't need. I ran out of black and had almost 50% of all the other colors so I guessed that it had printed everything way too dark from the start. I use a C-88 and I approximate my cost to be around $1.50 per page for a 6 X 12 print ( I do a lot of license plates). That is using bulk ink I use to fill my own cartridges. The 4800 which is an excellent printer from everything I hear should be about the same give or take a little. I have no problems with the black, but a few people seem to think it is not as black as Sublijet What you might do is ask for a sample of one of your prints from each and see which you like better. Just make sure it is the same print on both not just a sample they choose to make that they have perfected to show how great their ink is.


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## Dingbat (Jun 12, 2007)

I have the 4800 printer and use the 220ml cartridges. The 4800 is an excellent printer and works well for sublimation printing. I have very little clogging, unless I leave the printer off for more that 4 days. When I do, I just run the nozzle check/clean and everything is back in shape. As with most inkjet printers, the higher level machines have more spray holes and are much better at delivering ink to the paper than the lower cost printers. My 4800 uses less ink than 1800 to produce the same print.

Because the 220ml carts are so large, the ink within is sold at the bulk price. Do the math . . the same cost per volume of ink with less ink used = better price per printed product.

My customers are asking for larger graphics and the 17" x whatever length you choose, makes for wonderfully large prints. If I'm printing smaller items, I just add serveral copies of my logo (put them on the bottom of a sleeve) and print a 17" x 6" sheet. I did not select the hybrid chromablast. I got the 8 color sublimation version and my photo items are my biggest sellers.


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## rusty (Feb 9, 2007)

The debate over the blacks is funny. I've ALWAYS heard that Sublijet has a truer black. Never once have I heard anybody say ArTainium's black is better. But when I was talking to my Conde rep (who happens to sell only ArTainium), he told me that he's always heard ArTainium has a truer black than Sublijet. I wonder who he heard that from? The ArTainium rep maybe? It's just funny. It just shows you really can't trust anything anybody says when they have something to sell you.


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## rrc62 (Jun 2, 2007)

when you ask the vendors about ink costs, they all seem to agree that a 1280/1400/1800 is about 1.5 cents per square inch. They also say the the 4800 costs a little less, but I don't have an exact number.


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## rusty (Feb 9, 2007)

rrc62 said:


> when you ask the vendors about ink costs, they all seem to agree that a 1280/1400/1800 is about 1.5 cents per square inch. They also say the the 4800 costs a little less, but I don't have an exact number.


I used the R1800 for about a year and a half, and I think the ink cost for it using the PowerDriver is much more than that. For example, 8 inks X $150 per 110ml bag = $1200 for a full setup. If it's 1.5 cents per square inch, that would be $1.40 per 8.5" x 11" print, assuming a full coverage print. And at 1.5 cents/square inch, you would be able to print 800 pages from a full ink setup. I don't believe there's any way you are going to get 800 prints out of an R1800 using the PowerDriver.

Using another RIP, like MultiRIP that allows you to use a lot less ink, that might be possible.


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## rrc62 (Jun 2, 2007)

I should have mentioned that those numbers are for Artanium bulk ink. My setup is the 1400 with bulk Artanium. No one had firm numbers on the 1400, but they claimed similar usage as the 1280 and 1800. I figured the 4800 would have been more, but they all say ink costs per print are less.


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## imadork (Aug 7, 2007)

I use the 4800 and print hybrid with Sublijet Dye Sub and Paper Ranch Transfer Ink. It works wonderfully for me.


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## selzler (Apr 4, 2007)

I use the 4800 with artainium and conde told me to use .30 per sqaure inch for ink cost and ware and tare on the printer and I've use that for 1 1/2 years and it works great for me. My customer love that I can put prints on shirts 15 1/2 x 21 1/2 I also bought a 16x20 manual press and it works great. I have an air press and that doen't work it presses to hard and leaves press lines. Even when the air isturned down.


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## rusty (Feb 9, 2007)

selzler said:


> I use the 4800 with artainium and conde told me to use .30 per sqaure inch for ink cost and ware and tare on the printer and I've use that for 1 1/2 years and it works great for me.


So Sawgrass says is .30 cents per 8x10 and Conde says it's .30 per inch? That's quite a big difference!  Actually .30 cents per inch is very high. Using that cost, an 11" x 7" logo would be $23 just for the ink.

Now that I think about it, could it have been 3 cents per inch? I think that would be a lot more accurate. I think that would still be a little low, but pretty close.


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## jpkevin (Oct 22, 2007)

Sawgrass's published imaging costs are as follows.

This is for ink and paper with paper at a cost of $.15
7.5"x10 image on Soft L'ink setting, vivid and high speed setting. Heavy Coverage.

C88 Bulk System $1.01
R1800 Bulk System $.79
4800 Standard Cartridge $.66 Jumbo Cartridge $.54

margin of error +/- 3%

These were published before the April price increase of approx $9 per bags and cartridges, so the cost would increase slightly per print.

Of course, this is absolutely best case scenario, and as a business person, I would start with this information as a base line. You need to take into consideration how many head cleanings you may do, which will be influenced by your environment, how much you use the printer, mistakes and many many other factors.

I generally tell people to start with an approx cost of 1.5 cents per square inch as a starting point, but it is good to have more padding. 

I can certainly understand the 3 cents per square inch cited by Conde for wear and tear on the printer. This is also more padding.

The second item in this thread that I can shed some light on is which ink (Sublijet, or Artainium) has a blacker black. We sell both inks, so I can say definitively that the Subliject black is a lot blacker in the C88, 1280, 1400 and 4000 platform, and a little blacker in the R1800, and 4800 platform.


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## selzler (Apr 4, 2007)

I goofed it was to be .03 cents I should have reread what I typed sorry about that.


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## rusty (Feb 9, 2007)

jpkevin said:


> Sawgrass's published imaging costs are as follows.
> 
> This is for ink and paper with paper at a cost of $.15
> 7.5"x10 image on Soft L'ink setting, vivid and high speed setting. Heavy Coverage.
> ...


Sawgrass is a bunch of liars. Those numbers are jokes. I had an R1800 for 2 years and there's no way you can print 8x10's for .79 cents. Not even close. They will say anything to get you to fork over your money.


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## jpkevin (Oct 22, 2007)

Hi Rusty,

Were you using the Sublijet inks for two years? What do you think it cost to print each image? Did you do any tracking on how many prints you got, and how many cleanings you did?


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## rusty (Feb 9, 2007)

jpkevin said:


> Hi Rusty,
> 
> Were you using the Sublijet inks for two years? What do you think it cost to print each image? Did you do any tracking on how many prints you got, and how many cleanings you did?


Yes, I used the Sublijet and their PowerDriver IQ for 2 years, but no, I didn't document any official ink usage. I just know that it costs about $1200 for a full set of 110ml bags. And at .79 per print, that would mean I should get over 1500 images out of a full set of bags. That's ridiculous. I estimate that it would be closer to about 200-300 printed images before running out of ink. I didn't have to do too many head cleanings. It usually ran pretty clean. I went through several sets of bags and eventually started buying the 220ml bags before I bought a 4800. The 4800 uses much much less ink thanks to the MultiRip driver.


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## Free Man (Feb 21, 2009)

Hi, I have a c 88+. Seen an old message where you said you had a c88. I want to get sublimation ink for it. Tell me what and where to get please?


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## Riderz Ready (Sep 18, 2008)

The Epson 4800 will save you more time and money then you can imagine versus the small desktop printers that are using crappy bulk system depending on gravity to work. We have been down that ugly road and almost quit sublimation over the constant clogs and headaches. Not only is the 4800 a much better printer but why rely on anyone to tell you your ink cost when the printer will kick out exactly how much ink you used per color for a given design. You will know your cost down to the penny. We have since moved to the 9800 series and again know our cost for each design down to the penny becuase of the reposrts the larger Epsons can kick out. Ink cost per square inch greatly varies per design and colors used and of course is dependant on your ink cost. Purchase ink by the litre and you will be stunned on how low your ink cost really can be.


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## BRC (Mar 27, 2007)

I would suggest you start by clicking on the Alpha Supply link on this site. Their website is one of the most informative that you will find. As to what to buy that would depend on your personal situation. You might want to start with simple cartridges if you are on a tight budget, since that is the cheapest way to start out , but the most expensive to use in the long run. If you decide to keep going a bulk system or refillable cartridges would be the next step up. Yes the large format is by far the cheapest to operate, but I would never recommend it for a beginner on a budget since you would have thousands invested up front and possibly find out that it just isn't for you. Dye sub can be shall we say trying at times and isn't for everybody. 

As for where to buy, find someplace you are comfortable with as far as support and service. The prices are set by Sawgrass so there isn't a lot of variation from one dealer to another.


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## rusty (Feb 9, 2007)

On-line Jerseys said:


> Not only is the 4800 a much better printer but why rely on anyone to tell you your ink cost when the printer will kick out exactly how much ink you used per color for a given design. You will know your cost down to the penny.


How do you tell how much ink the printer used? I have a 4800 and have never seen that feature.


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## Riderz Ready (Sep 18, 2008)

rusty said:


> How do you tell how much ink the printer used? I have a 4800 and have never seen that feature.


It is under "job history" on the printer menu. It will give you the last 10 jobs printed and how many ML used for each color. For our larger wholesale projects this is a life saver. No guess work required.


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## JYA (Jun 2, 2008)

If you use Wasatch, the latest version (V6.5) has a cost estimator that will give you your ink cost based on what the program is sending to the printer.


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## Free Man (Feb 21, 2009)

Is there any place local to purchase sublimation ink? Just dont want to wait or pay shipping. Im in coeur d'alene, Id. 83814. near to Spokane, wa.


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## charles95405 (Feb 1, 2007)

Since all legit sublimation ink sold in US comes from Sawgrass, I would contact Sawgrass and ask for the vendor nearest you. Since sublimation ink is a relative small market, you may not find it within logical driving distance. I live within 50 miles of a vendor and have to cross a toll bridge and I find it cheaper to have it shipped. the cost of shipping compared to two hour drive and toll charge plus gas tells me to stay home, have a beer and wait for the delivery


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## Free Man (Feb 21, 2009)

Sawgrass eh. Ok thanks. Oh yea and I will have a beer regardless, Ha ha. Beer, Bait, Ammo!


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## conde tech (Nov 15, 2007)

I have printed with both inks, SUbliJet and ArTainium. I prefer the ArTainium inks when using the Epson 4800/4880. The 1800 is no longer made and has be replaced by the R1900. I have use the R1900, but it is no comparsion to the 4800/4880. I would also suggest checking out the Ricoh Dyetrans GX7000. The Ricoh GX7000 and 5050n use Subli-R gel inks. I have extensively tested both of them and the speed is a lot faster than any of the Epson printer. Color and quality are great.


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## charles95405 (Feb 1, 2007)

I would agree with Sonya on the Ricoh GX7000 ...I have been using for the last month and it is miles faster than the Epsons..Too early to tell how the ink carts last...They a much more than regular carts, but less than bulk bags


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## Free Man (Feb 21, 2009)

thanks to all for the info. At the moment I have yet to even make my first shirt. Just gonna play with the cheap small equipment that I have first, and then see if I want to invest in the fancier things You all have suggested, Thanks. 
Can any one tell me about transfer papers? Which do I need if I get sub. ink for my epson c88+? Where is the best price on it?
Thanks, Free Man.


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## conde tech (Nov 15, 2007)

You can use any one of the three papers... I mentioned above for sublimation once your C88 is setup for sublimation.


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## woodmansared (Jun 12, 2010)

My god Im just starting out!! Im using Illustrator...got that sorted im comfy with it..but...so many opinions on wich way to go with printing.....HELP!!!! limited budget, at home doing one offs for friends..suggest


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