# Does your screenprinter let you bring in your own shirts



## johnsmith (Feb 22, 2006)

or do they make you buy theirs?

A lot of shops won't let you use your own(that you buy yourself) they want to sell you theirs for about 2X the amount I can get them for off the internet.

The printer I will begin with lets me buy the shirts and bring them in.


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## Comin'OutSwingin (Oct 28, 2005)

Over the years I've only used a few different printers, maybe 4, but they all ALWAYS let me bring my own shirts.


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## jay allen (Mar 14, 2006)

Most printers will let you supply the shirts. Just be aware that they need to make money, just like you do, and will make up for the lost revenue on shirts by charging more to print. It is unlikely that you will save much money by supplying the shirts.


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## Comin'OutSwingin (Oct 28, 2005)

I have never encountered this. The printing prices have always been the same whether I supply the shirts or not. Also, it saves LOTS of $$$$!!!!!!!

I hope whatever printer you are using, they do great work. Because I think it is a little shady to charge a customer extra on printing just because you can't make money buy selling them your shirts.


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## jay allen (Mar 14, 2006)

Comin'OutSwingin said:


> I have never encountered this. The printing prices have always been the same whether I supply the shirts or not. Also, it saves LOTS of $$$$!!!!!!!
> 
> I hope whatever printer you are using, they do great work. Because I think it is a little shady to charge a customer extra on printing just because you can't make money buy selling them your shirts.


If that is really the case....it may explain why you have used 4 different screen printers....the first 3 went out of business. Screenprinters that stay in business need to make a certain amount of money per hour that they are operating their machinery. The cost of the shirts, plus whatever markup they get, is all figured into the equation. This isn't shady, or even unfair, it is just the way it works. 

Your mechanic does essentially the same thing. He supplies the parts, with a mark up, and then charges labor to install them. 

I am a screen printer....but I only print my own stuff. I do occasionally print for friends and allow them to supply the shirts. I can tell you that there is no money to be made by charging someone $1 per shirt to print. As a screen printer you will quickly go out of business if you follow this model. 

If you have a printer that will do this for you....that's cool. Just don't expect them to continue to do it. As they get more experience, and realize that they aren't making any money, they will either stop doing it.....or go out of business. All that said......there are new screen printers opening a shop every day. They are hungry for work.....and want the practice.....if you can keep finding one of them to print your shirts there is nothing wrong with that.


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## Comin'OutSwingin (Oct 28, 2005)

No, all printers that I have used have been in business at least 25 years and are still thriving. The company that I now use started in 1980. And they gladly let me supply my own shirts, and do not charge extra on the printing. They have had this policy from day one! Their name is Screen Art. You can check them out at www.goscreenart.com. Yes, they sell shirts, and I'm pretty sure they make a fair amount of money doing so, but also have no problem giving me the same great deal on printing when I supply the shirts. So, yes, I do expect them to keep doing this, since they have done it for over 25 years and still manage to stay in business! 

Over the years my focus has changed, and I'm selling to a completely different market than I did when I first started getting shirts printed. This is why I have used different printers. I have used different printers because I had to find the quality that I wanted and the right "fit" for my business. It is not an indictment of those particular companies, all still in business over 25 years, as much as it is for me finding what works best for me.

Also, as a side note...my mechanic lets me supply the parts and only charges me labor. He also doesn't hike up the price on the labor!

Once others have a chance to see this thread, I think you may be surprised at how many printers don't charge extra on printing, just because you supply your own shirts.


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## jay allen (Mar 14, 2006)

Comin'OutSwingin said:


> No, all printers that I have used have been in business at least 25 years and are still thriving. The company that I now use started in 1980. And they gladly let me supply my own shirts, and do not charge extra on the printing. They have had this policy from day one! Their name is Screen Art. You can check them out at www.goscreenart.com. Yes, they sell shirts, and I'm pretty sure they make a fair amount of money doing so, but also have no problem giving me the same great deal on printing when I supply the shirts. So, yes, I do expect them to keep doing this, since they have done it for over 25 years and still manage to stay in business!
> 
> Over the years my focus has changed, and I'm selling to a completely different market than I did when I first started getting shirts printed. This is why I have used different printers. I have used different printers because I had to find the quality that I wanted and the right "fit" for my business. It is not an indictment of those particular companies, all still in business over 25 years, as much as it is for me finding what works best for me.
> 
> ...


I'm not trying to be argumentative.....good for you if you are happy with your printer. After looking at their "specials" pricing I can see how they are staying in business. Good for them. If you noticed...it is $2.50 per shirt, for 288 shirts. White shirt....one color print. It goes to $3.50 a shirt for 144 pieces. The shirts they are using are approx. $1.25 each in volume. That means in a 144 piece order they are making over $2.00 a unit to print. I'd be willing to bet that the price is substantially higher for a run of 36 shirts.

If you don't mind me asking....what are you paying for screen charges, and printing per unit? I'm sure you know what you are doing....but many people have no idea how the screen printing business actually works. There are art charges, film charges, screen charges, print charges. For every color in a design these charges go up. Printing them on a dark shirt also makes the charges go up. 

I think this is an interesting thread....maybe more people will post what their actual costs are.


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## Comin'OutSwingin (Oct 28, 2005)

No worries, I didn't take it as argumentative. Discussion is good. That's what the forums are for.

You're right. That's how they're staying in business. They get alot of their business from the local university and other schools. They don't care about finding shirts wholesale, then getting them printed. They just see shirts are "this" much and "this" is how much it costs to get them printed.

There are no screen charges. Art charges are $35, but I do my own camera ready art now, with the separations. So I pay no art charges. Just to give you an idea. I just got a few shirts printed that I wanted to just see how the design looked on the shirts. I got a dozen of them printed up. I supplied my own shirts. I did the artwork and color separations. The design had 4 colors on white shirts, so no need to put down a white base for a dark shirt. I paid a total of $51. $4.25/shirt for 4 colors on only 12 shirts. Excellent quality. If I had wanted it on more shirts, of course the price per shirt would have gone down dramatically.

I agree that lots of people that get items screen printed don't know much about it, or even want to. They just want what they want, printed on whatever they want, and just go on about their business. But when you are in the business of getting things printed, you need to know all about it, and how to make the most of it.

Also, I just did a random survey. I called 25 of the 60 business listed in my local (Nashville area) BellSouth yellowpages under screen printing. Of the 25 only 1 said they charge more for printing if I brought in my own shirts.


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## govtissues (Feb 7, 2006)

I am using a local screenprinter. We got our own shirts from Alternative Apparel. He is charging us $20/screen (but 2 images to a screen) $20/for each image (they needed to be scanned and tweaked) I payed $10 each for samples of the 6 designs we are doing. Then $2/per shirt for image on front logo on back of neckline. 
Perhaps I am being overcharged, but I looked at doing the whole thing through other printers and I liked this set up better. I am also in Metro NY which includes a surcharge no matter what  .

We are starting with 200 shirts.... And most of all I dont mind paying more for someone I am comfortable with. He sees our vision and is helping us realize it.


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## Squirts (Feb 17, 2006)

I can't speak for others only myself.... I refuse to print on Customer provided shirts for one main reason.... and it has nothing to do with shirt markup... It is because things can and do go wrong from time to time and a shirt is ruined.

Many shirts (Duckhead for example) have price tags attached that are double what the stores actually sell them for sometimes more... Mess one of these up and a customer will try to get you to pay the tag price.... have had it happen more then once.... Also If they bring you some close-out shirt you may not even be able to find a replacement... Its just BAD BUSINESS no matter how you slice it if your getting a dollar or two a print on a couple dozen shirts then have to spend 10.00 in gas trying to locate a replacement shirt well it doesnt take a math genius to see the results..

Its all a numbers game anyway.. As stated in a previous post it requires so much a shirt to keep a shop open we can call it shirt markup or we can call it setup charges or we can call it screen charges we can list it on their reciept in any number of creative ways but the bottom line is well the bottom line it requires so much a shirt to pay the bills on time and keep the front door open...

We have a simple pricing system that our customers like they dont have to bring a calculator along to figure up all the charges.. Give them a price list for one color print per shirt period.... everything included... two color prints per shirt everything included.... etc.
Seems to be working because we stay busy.....

Like I said at the begining I can only speak for my own shop....


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## jay allen (Mar 14, 2006)

Comin'OutSwingin said:


> No worries, I didn't take it as argumentative. Discussion is good. That's what the forums are for.
> 
> You're right. That's how they're staying in business. They get alot of their business from the local university and other schools. They don't care about finding shirts wholesale, then getting them printed. They just see shirts are "this" much and "this" is how much it costs to get them printed.
> 
> ...


It's all good.....if you're happy, I'm happy. OK....now call 25 restaurants and ask them if you can bring in your own steak. 

At the VERY LEAST your print jobs go to the back of the pack. Why would a printer choose to print your shirts for little profit.....if he has other work where he is making twice the profit.

Your price for the 4 color shirts obviously doesn't include screen charges. Any printer that burns 4 screens....to print 12 shirts.......for a total of $51.....is insane. You are either leaving something out of the equation......or you live in an alternate universe. I think putting this kind of information out here is a disservce to new people. Screen charges for that 4 color job would be at least $80 in virtually any shop in america. So before you even start you are at almost $7 a shirt on a 12 shirt order......BEFORE printing.

The only possiblility is that they are using direct to shirt ink jet printing. Those machines cost BIG money and don't have the quality of "real" screen printing yet.


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## Comin'OutSwingin (Oct 28, 2005)

We aren't talking about steak! We are talking about screen printers allowing customers to supply their own shirts. You don't think this happens that much. Look at the different shirts people on this forum use to print on. American Apparel, ProClub, Alternative Apparel, Royal Apparel, just to name a FEW. You think screen printers carry these brands? If so, VERY few.

Now, I think you might be trying to be argumentative. Steaks?!!! What?!!Why don't you ask me if my print jobs go to the back, instead of assuming they do. They don't. No matter how many I order, 12 or 1,200. They have 2 week turnaround on ALL jobs. That is for every customer. Don't believe me? Call them.

I'm not doing a disservice to anyone. You haven't been here long enough to know whether I am or not. You go read just a FEW of my 300 posts and I think you will quickly see that I am here to help anybody, whenever, and however I can and I don't just throw out info, without being able to back it up. 

Like I said, if you have a problem with what I'm saying, call them and ask them for a quote and see what they say. I gave the url, the phone number is listed on the website. Otherwise you need to check yourself, before you start talking about someone doing a disservice, when you don't have clue about my situation.

As I have said before on other threads, the place I found is great. Great prices, great service, great quality. Are all places like this? NO! And I never said they were. Different companies do business different ways. Do prices vary across the country and in different markets. Of course. For all types of businesses and screen printing is no exception.


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## jay allen (Mar 14, 2006)

Comin'OutSwingin said:


> We aren't talking about steak! We are talking about screen printers allowing customers to supply their own shirts. You don't think this happens that much. Look at the different shirts people on this forum use to print on. American Apparel, ProClub, Alternative Apparel, Royal Apparel, just to name a FEW. You think screen printers carry these brands? If so, VERY few.
> 
> Now, I think you might be trying to be argumentative. Steaks?!!! What?!!Why don't you ask me if my print jobs go to the back, instead of assuming they do. They don't. No matter how many I order, 12 or 1,200. They have 2 week turnaround on ALL jobs. That is for every customer. Don't believe me? Call them.
> 
> ...


I did call.....their price for printing on a 4 color design is higher than $4.25 per shirt on a 12 shirt order (I didn't ask what the actual price would be)......and they do charge screen charges.

No offense....I'm sure you are a nice guy.....but your information IS wrong....and it IS misleading. Not saying this is done on purpose.....may be an oversight, or a misunderstanding on the bill. The lady I spoke with was very pleasant and was quite amused at the suggestion that would do 12, 4 color shirts, for $51.00.

They do however print on supplied shirts.

The reason this is important to me isn't to prove you wrong....or be a jerk. It would be unforunate for other newbies to walk into a shop in Nevada, or Ohio, or New York and be surprised that printers charge screen charges. Or to believe you can get a 4 color, 12 shirt run, done for $51. 

Like the lady I spoke to said....."if we were doing that, we would be out of business very quickly".


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## Comin'OutSwingin (Oct 28, 2005)

I don't know who you spoke to or if you really called. I don't know you anymore than I know any other person on some forum on the internet. But I do know how much I paid. And I have the receipt. That's all that matters to me. Like I said before, anyone here reading anything that I have posted in the past knows that I am only here to help and be helped. And you shouldn't just throw out "a disservice to new people" without knowing where I'm coming from and what I'm about.

I never said that printers don't charge screen charges. Some do, some don't. I said that the printer I used doesn't.

Maybe they cut me a deal, because I'm a loyal customer. I don't know. What I do know for a fact, is that it doesn't matter whether you are a longtime loyal customer with a large order or a new customer with a run of 12 shirts, they let you bring your own shirts and there is a 2 week turnaround for EVERYBODY, and they don't charge extra ANYTHING for you supplying your shirts. 

The question the original poster had (and our reason for responding) was: "do printers let you bring your own shirts?". The answer is an emphatic: YES!!! Some (like mine) even do it without charging extra! That was the point of the thread, and you got your answer straight from the horses mouth.


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## jay allen (Mar 14, 2006)

Comin'OutSwingin said:


> I don't know who you spoke to or if you really called. I don't know you anymore than I know any other person on some forum on the internet. But I do know how much I paid. And I have the receipt. That's all that matters to me. Like I said before, anyone here reading anything that I have posted in the past knows that I am only here to help and be helped. And you shouldn't just throw out "a disservice to new people" without knowing where I'm coming from and what I'm about.
> 
> I never said that printers don't charge screen charges. Some do, some don't. I said that the printer I used doesn't.


I believe the gal I spoke with was Kim. She couldn't have been any nicer....I can see why you like working with them. I'm not questioning your desire, or ability, to help others here on these boards. Maybe they were running a special that day.....or you are a family friend......but the point is that isn't their normal pricing. 

Believe me, all screen printers charge screen charges....in one way or another. Just because someone gives an all inclusive price doesn't mean the screens aren't being accounted for in that price. It takes a fair amount of time to wash a screen....coat a screen.....wait for it to dry.....burn the screen.....wait for it to dry....print with it......and then reclaim it. All of that labor needs to be accounted for, and charged for. 

Anyway....Good luck with your business.


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## BG Concepts (Aug 25, 2005)

Well, I figure I'll speak out here...being a screenprinting company ourselves, we let people bring in any amount of shirts they want. Sometimes they feel they can get the shirts cheaper at their local discounter or just have some unique pieces they want printed. Thats fine, and we keep our prices the same as for any other person that comes in to buy shirts, as long as the job is straightforward and simple. The more complex and difficult it is, the more the art charge or print charge, etc. 

All that being said, we can more often than not get customers shirts for cheaper than they would be able to buy them discounted at the local store. I don't know what everyone else is charging, but at our cheapest shirt (Lofteez) we're looking at $2.15 for whites and $2.96 for darks. 

Let the discussion continue....


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## jay allen (Mar 14, 2006)

Comin'OutSwingin said:


> I don't know who you spoke to or if you really called. I don't know you anymore than I know any other person on some forum on the internet. But I do know how much I paid. And I have the receipt. That's all that matters to me. Like I said before, anyone here reading anything that I have posted in the past knows that I am only here to help and be helped. And you shouldn't just throw out "a disservice to new people" without knowing where I'm coming from and what I'm about.
> 
> I never said that printers don't charge screen charges. Some do, some don't. I said that the printer I used doesn't.
> 
> ...


To be clear....I never said printers didn't allow you to bring in your own shirts. I said it was unlikely that they charged the same for printing. I didn't ask what their policy was in that regard. 

I know that the majority of printers DO charge differently for printing on supplied shirts. Whether yours does, or not, isn't the issue. If they don't, I would respectfully suggest that they should. It is generally a bad policy to insist that your business partners make no money, or to resent the money they do make. Without them, and their excellent service, you don't have a business.


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## Comin'OutSwingin (Oct 28, 2005)

Yes, Kim is very nice. Everyone there is that way. That is one of the BIG reasons that I am a loyal customer.



jay allen said:


> Believe me, all screen printers charge screen charges....in one way or another. Just because someone gives an all inclusive price doesn't mean the screens aren't being accounted for in that price. It takes a fair amount of time to wash a screen....coat a screen.....wait for it to dry.....burn the screen.....wait for it to dry....print with it......and then reclaim it. All of that labor needs to be accounted for, and charged for.


If that makes you feel better to call them screen charges, that's fine. I know they need to make a profit, and that they need to pay for the utilities they use, wages, insurance, etc. So, everything they charge could be called "wage charges", "utility charges", etc. My point is there are some companies that will break down all of the charges for you, and let you see how much EACH thing involved with printing your shirts cost. When you are able to line those things up side-byside (art charges, screen charges, color changes, print charges, number of colors, etc.) and company "A" has a price for all of those things and the company "B" doesn't have some of those things listed (screen charges, for instance) and company "B" is still cheaper BY FAR than company "A", I think it's fair to say that company "B" doesn't have any screen charges. Does company "B" still need to make a profit. Certainly. It's just that company "B" is able to make more money because they have more business. Partly because they have great customer service (Like Kim at Screen Art). And partly because they are able to offer great quality at a better price by not charging for certain things.

For instance. When I get my site up and running, I will be shipping my shirts in custom printed boxes. I will not be charging anymore for my shirts than I do now, when I sell them to people face-to-face. Will this eat into my profits? Of course. Will it give my items a higher perceived value? I hope so. Right now, I give my products to customers in custom printed bags. I didn't go up on my price. Lots of people think that if you have things like that then "the customer is paying for it somewhere", when that is not always necessarily the case. This seems to be the viewpoint you have about screen charges. Am I still making a profit from my shirts. Absolutely. But, I still want my customers to know that they are getting a product with excellent quality, and value-added-services, and still know that they are getting those things at a great price. Could I charge more for my products and pass those costs along to my customers. Yes. But I believe if I offer excellent products at excellent prices, with value-added-services with higher perceived value, that I will gain loyal customers and continually add new ones. This is obviously Screen Arts' philosophy as well. I have said a few times before on this forum. They are BY FAR the best quality around my area, the best service (including Kim), and the best price. That's why they don't have to charge screen charges and why they have been around since 1980 and still growing. Because you can come in with a run of 12 shirts and be treated like the university with 12,000. 

Also, I don't know how you can say that the "MAJORITY" of printers charge differently for printing on supplies shirts when you don't know "ALL" of the printers in order to make that statement. Maybe the majority that YOU know do this. But I think it would be hard to know if the majority of ALL printers did this. 

I don't think think not paying more for printing on my own shirts is insisting the printer to not make any money. I actually think that it is smart of them to be able to offer such a thing AND still be able to make money, and even thrive! That's the kind of company I LOVE doing business with.

BG Concepts, thanks for chiming in! I'm sure you could probably do better on prices than most of your customers. "Most" customers probably aren't like the ones on this forum that want their designs on specific shirts, such as AA. Also, they probably don't have a resale number or tax id that allows them to get shirts at wholesale pricing like you do. Lots of people here are able to get the same, if not better pricing on the shirts that most screen printers have.


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## jay allen (Mar 14, 2006)

Comin'OutSwingin said:


> Yes, Kim is very nice. Everyone there is that way. That is one of the BIG reasons that I am a loyal customer.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I would encourage you to go to a screenprintes message board and pose this same question. I think you would get some insight into how the screen printing business actually works. Your volume, volume, volume theory doesn't really hold up when printing a 12 piece order. If you asked 1,000 screen printers to print 12 4 color shirts for $51......I don't believe you would find a single one willing to do it.


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## Comin'OutSwingin (Oct 28, 2005)

Again, not the point...the point is the question the OP had: "Does your screenprinter let you bring in your own shirts?". That's the point. I already conceded that the could have given me that price BECAUSE I'm a loyal customer and they aren't worried about having to earn my repeat business. But the fact remains about THE point I was trying to make. There are screen printers that let you bring your own shirts and don't charge ANYTHING extra for doing so. One just posted! (BG Concepts)

For some reason, this concept is hard for you to grasp. I'm sorry.


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## Rodney (Nov 3, 2004)

Thanks for keeping this a civil discussion guys 

To answer the original question, from what I've seen, most screen printers let you bring in your own shirts. 

As squirts mentioned, some discourage it for the misprint issue. As JayAllen mentioned, some mark the printing prices up more to help cover their profit margin. As COS said, some will give you the same price either way.

Not all screen printers keep the shirts they print on on hand in their shop. They order them wholesale at the time you order. I think some people might have a misconception that they can get lower prices that the screen printer, which is not always the case.

A screen printer can order wholesale from proclub, alternative apparel, american apparel as well. Often times they can get better pricing than an individual or smaller company because a blank manufacturers know that decorators (screen printers/embroiders) are their big customer.

So after a customer buys some shirts wholesale, then pays shipping to get them to their doorstep and then reships them to the printer, you really have to pay attention to the costs to make sure it's still "less expensive".


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## jay allen (Mar 14, 2006)

You post crazy numbers as fact....invite people to check out your crazy numbers....and then cop an attitude when your own printer just laughs at the numbers you posted. I have no issues with your point that printers will print on supplied shirts. I suspect that MOST printers will. I still stand by my statement that most printers will have a different (higher) print charge for supplied garments. 

Whatever.....I will chalk this thread up to the exurberance of youth. I too remember a time when I knew everything. The point of boards like these is to post helpful information.....not get in a pissing contest. 

[edit: edited out rude comments]

Again....go to http://boards.screenprinters.net/ and ask REAL screenprinters about their policies....then come back and report to this board what you find. You will not only get answers completely opposite what you post here....you'll get the REASONS why printers generally charge more for printing supplied garment. 

[edit: edited out rude comments]


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## Comin'OutSwingin (Oct 28, 2005)

Good points, Rodney.

Back when I was selling shirts at events, I could go to the local shirt wholesaler, pick up some shirts in my SUV, drive them to the screen printer and ALWAYS beat them on the shirt prices. They were getting their shirts from the same place I was and wanted twice as much for them. Since they didn't charge for me supplying the shirts, it was a no brainer!

I think there are lots of screen printers that will let customers bring in there own shirts and not charge them extra for doing so. I also think there are enough that do this that it is not considered "out of the norm". That's been my only point.


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## jay allen (Mar 14, 2006)

Comin'OutSwingin said:


> Good points, Rodney.
> 
> Back when I was selling shirts at events, I could go to the local shirt wholesaler, pick up some shirts in my SUV, drive them to the screen printer and ALWAYS beat them on the shirt prices. They were getting their shirts from the same place I was and wanted twice as much for them. Since they didn't charge for me supplying the shirts, it was a no brainer!
> 
> I think there are lots of screen printers that will let customers bring in there own shirts and not charge them extra for doing so. I also think there are enough that do this that it is not considered "out of the norm". That's been my only point.


No....that wasn't your only point. I think you used the term "shady" to describe any printer that had a different printing charge for supplied garments. You then posted fantasy numbers about your printing costs.

It isn't "shady" to charge differently for supplied garments. To suggest that it is shows a complete lack of understanding of the business.

Again....not trying to be a jerk, but at least own up to what you post.


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## Comin'OutSwingin (Oct 28, 2005)

Okay, fine. That was my MAIN point. I did state my OPINION about charging a customer extra because you can't make money off of selling them shirts. But I wasn't trying to make a point about that, I was just stating my opinion on the matter. I don't think it shows a lack of understanding of the business. I understand it very well. I DO think it is shady to say the price of the printing for your job is $100 plus the price of the shirts. Thenm ake the price of the printing $130 (or whatever) if I bring in my own shirts. I just created LESS work for you. Why charge me more for the printing! They can't make enough money in the business they are supposedly in (printing on shirts) so they want to make some "extra" money by ALSO being in the business of selling shirts. Just because that's they some companies do business and YOU see nothing wrong with it, does not mean that I'm wrong by thinking it is a shady practice. You have your opinion on the matter. I have mine. Back to the ORIGINAL point to answering the poster's question. I answered that. THAT was my point for posting and the point I've been trying to make all along. Yes, there are printers out there that let you bring your own shirts for printing, and don't charge one red cent extra for it. I would much rather do business with these companies than ones that don't. My preference, my prerogative. And I do! You have a different view of companies that charge extra. It doesn't change the fact about THE point I've been trying to make about the ORIGINAL question.

It is the same way with companies that ship products. Lots of them make money on shipping. That's fine. But if I can go down to the local shirt wholesaler and pick up my shirts. I don't want to pay extra for those shirts because they couldn't make any money off of the shipping charges. Doesn't make much sense. I don't see how that's any different than screen printers charging extra on their services when you don't allow them to make money from selling you shirts.

As for the numbers. You aksed for what they were. You were the one going off on tangents about all sorts of things. Companies I do business with going out of business because of their practices, how much I pay for my printing, my mechanic marking up prices on parts, bringing my own steak to a restaurant. I didn't care about the numbers. I wasn't making ANY point about numbers. YOU asked. I answered. You didn't like the answer. I wasn't making a point about numbers, prices, or costs. That was you doing the asking about it. Not me offering or trying to make a point about it. I never have a problem owning up to what I post. On each post I made, I was trying to make the point about printers letting you bring your own shirts. For some reason you wanted to focus on other things. I don't know why. But all along my point has been the same. Maybe you just misunderstood my points.


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## jay allen (Mar 14, 2006)

Comin'OutSwingin said:


> Okay, fine. That was my MAIN point. I did state my OPINION about charging a customer extra because you can't make money off of selling them shirts. But I wasn't trying to make a point about that, I was just stating my opinion on the matter. I don't think it shows a lack of understanding of the business. I understand it very well. I DO think it is shady to say the price of the printing for your job is $100 plus the price of the shirts. Thenm ake the price of the printing $130 (or whatever) if I bring in my own shirts. I just created LESS work for you. Why charge me more for the printing! They can't make enough money in the business they are supposedly in (printing on shirts) so they want to make some "extra" money by ALSO being in the business of selling shirts. Just because that's they some companies do business and YOU see nothing wrong with it, does not mean that I'm wrong by thinking it is a shady practice. You have your opinion on the matter. I have mine. Back to the ORIGINAL point to answering the poster's question. I answered that. THAT was my point for posting and the point I've been trying to make all along. Yes, there are printers out there that let you bring your own shirts for printing, and don't charge one red cent extra for it. I would much rather do business with these companies than ones that don't. My preference, my prerogative. And I do! You have a different view of companies that charge extra. It doesn't change the fact about THE point I've been trying to make about the ORIGINAL question.
> 
> It is the same way with companies that ship products. Lots of them make money on shipping. That's fine. But if I can go down to the local shirt wholesaler and pick up my shirts. I don't want to pay extra for those shirts because they couldn't make any money off of the shipping charges. Doesn't make much sense. I don't see how that's any different than screen printers charging extra on their services when you don't allow them to make money from selling you shirts.
> 
> As for the numbers. You aksed for what they were. I wasn't making ANY point about numbers. You asked. I answered. You didn't like the answer. I wasn't making a point about numbers, prices, or costs. That was you doing the asking about it. Not me offering or trying to make a point about it. I never have a problem owning up to what I post. Maybe you just misunderstood my points.


OK.....I vote to end the brawl. I'm sure you are a decent guy with no ill intent. Sorry if I got a little harsh. Seriously.....if you need help with more Pool info give me a call sometime. I'm actually pretty easy to get along with.....really.


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## Comin'OutSwingin (Oct 28, 2005)

jay allen said:


> OK.....I vote to end the brawl.


I'll second that!



jay allen said:


> Seriously.....if you need help with more Pool info give me a call sometime.


I will definitely be bending your ear about the Pool stuff!



jay allen said:


> I'm actually pretty easy to get along with.....really.


I'm sure you are. 
Believe it or not, so am I.


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## Rodney (Nov 3, 2004)

Another happy ending


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## CoolHandLuke (Oct 27, 2005)

And I missed it?

If a printer won't print on your stuff... Off w/ their head!


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## Solmu (Aug 15, 2005)

Comin'OutSwingin said:


> I have never encountered this. The printing prices have always been the same whether I supply the shirts or not. Also, it saves LOTS of $$$$!!!!!!!


Unfortunately I've seen a lot of places charge more for printing if you supply your own shirts - I think it's very common. Generally speaking (in my experience) the places that do that also have so much markup on the cost of their shirts that it would still be cheaper to supply your own, even with the jacked up printing costs.


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## Solmu (Aug 15, 2005)

jay allen said:


> Screenprinters that stay in business need to make a certain amount of money per hour that they are operating their machinery. The cost of the shirts, plus whatever markup they get, is all figured into the equation. This isn't shady, or even unfair, it is just the way it works.


It is totally shady, and totally unfair. It is also often the way it works, but it stinks.

Clearly printers need to make a certain amount of money as you say, but that should be done in explicitly stated screen charges, printing charges, etc. and not hidden away inside the costs of a separate retail service (i.e. supplying shirts). When a printer says it costs $3 per shirt to print on 72 Hanes Beefy Tees supplied by them, and $3.50 per shirt to print on 72 Hanes Beefy Tees supplied by you... they are engaging in shady business practices. Print costs should be based on how much it costs to print. Personally I think COS's analogy to businesses hiding profit in inflated shipping costs is a good one. It's dishonest.

They have a right to make money and charge the rates they choose, but those rates should be consistent and visible.



jay allen said:


> I can tell you that there is no money to be made by charging someone $1 per shirt to print.


So don't charge someone $1 per shirt to print.


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## jay allen (Mar 14, 2006)

Solmu said:


> It is totally shady, and totally unfair. It is also often the way it works, but it stinks.
> 
> Clearly printers need to make a certain amount of money as you say, but that should be done in explicitly stated screen charges, printing charges, etc. and not hidden away inside the costs of a separate retail service (i.e. supplying shirts). When a printer says it costs $3 per shirt to print on 72 Hanes Beefy Tees supplied by them, and $3.50 per shirt to print on 72 Hanes Beefy Tees supplied by you... they are engaging in shady business practices. Print costs should be based on how much it costs to print. Personally I think COS's analogy to businesses hiding profit in inflated shipping costs is a good one. It's dishonest.
> 
> ...


If a printer agrees to print 72 Beefy T's, and for whatever reason screws up a couple shirts, you never hear about it.....he just makes it good out of his pocket. If you supply the T's the same thing happens, but it just causes much more hassle.The increased printing charge on supplied T's is to allow for this.

The majority of screen printers have small shops and work their asses off trying to please every wingnut that want's something for nothing. Let me ask you.....how many wealthy screen printers do you know? Is the guy that does your printing driving a BMW, and have a huge house on the ocean? You'll probably answer....yes, but the fact is, the vast majority are just making a living. To imply they are getting wealthy off the backs of unsuspecting t-shirt guys is laughable. 

BTW...I DON'T charge people $1 per shirt to print. I don't print for anyone but myself. People have no idea what is involved in screen printing, they don't respect the work it takes, and in general are a complete pain in the ***. I would suggest that you spend a few days washing out screens, pulling a squeegee, etc, etc, before posting anyting else about how shady screen printers are. You would have a new found respect for the process if you did that....not to mention a real foundation for future posting.


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## Solmu (Aug 15, 2005)

jay allen said:


> If a printer agrees to print 72 Beefy T's, and for whatever reason screws up a couple shirts, you never hear about it.....he just makes it good out of his pocket. If you supply the T's the same thing happens, but it just causes much more hassle.The increased printing charge on supplied T's is to allow for this.


I admit this is the one thing I was thinking on earlier which makes me think twice.

Ultimately, I decided it's a shady practice anyway because the buyer isn't aware that this is what is going on. Businesses should aim for transparency and honesty with their customer-base. Essentially what you're talking about is hidden compulsory f**k up insurance. i.e. you pay an extra 50c a shirt, and if the printer f**ks up, they make it right.

Printers could always split the difference - if they want to charge $3 and $3.50 for example they could just charge $3.25 on both. If they are making costly mistakes they're going to be making them whether you supply the shirts or they do, so either way it's eating into their profit margins. Whether we're wearing it or they are is up to them, but there's no reason the printer's policy shouldn't be consistent across store supplied and customer supplied shirts.

Ultimately I'm talking about simplifying the fees so that they are easier for customers to understand and there are no hidden levies. If a customer sees the price to print 72 shirts, that should be the price to print 72 shirts regardless of where they came from. The idea that the printer would need to charge them more in case they screw up is not going to occur to most customers (if any).

A customer wouldn't expect to be charged a levy in case the printer tears a screen, needs to re-burn artwork, misplaces a case of t-shirts, or has an unusually high electricity bill this month - those are costs that would be incorporated into overall fee structures, and shouldn't change based on the source of the textiles. Why should this one be any different?

I know the _motivation_ of the printer is not shady, they're just covering their costs as you say, but the image they are creating in the minds of their customers is shady, because it just looks like price gouging (and hey, in some cases because it *is* just price gouging).

I am curious though - what's the average number of screw ups in a print run anyway? Is it even going to cost a printer that much? Obviously if you're using expensive garments you've potentially got a problem, but assuming for a moment we're talking about a fairly standard wholesale t-shirt line got at good prices. How many shirts would the average decent printer ruin per 100? I simply have absolutely no idea. Mistakes happen occasionally - but I would have thought they'd be rare enough that it's not going be _that_ much of an issue.



jay allen said:


> Let me ask you.....how many wealthy screen printers do you know? Is the guy that does your printing driving a BMW, and have a huge house on the ocean? You'll probably answer....yes, but the fact is, the vast majority are just making a living. To imply they are getting wealthy off the backs of unsuspecting t-shirt guys is laughable.


I didn't imply they were getting wealthy, so much as that it's a dishonest way to cover their costs.

Obviously I do know of some printers who have gotten extremely rich off what they do, and likewise I'm sure I'd have no problem finding a few that either barely get by or will be forced to declare bankruptcy. That's all beside the point - I'm not complaining about the _amount_ of money they make, I am complaining about the _method_ they use to make it.



jay allen said:


> BTW...I DON'T charge people $1 per shirt to print.


I'm quite sure you don't, and yet it's the figure you used.

It's precisely because shirts don't cost $1/shirt to print that it shouldn't be necessary to inflate the costs in this way. If the cost was that low, it would be hard to make up the difference in lost revenue. Since it's not, it could easily be made back by increasing screen setup charges across the board (or a different fee - but consistently).



jay allen said:


> I would suggest that you spend a few days washing out screens, pulling a squeegee, etc, etc, before posting anyting else about how shady screen printers are. You would have a new found respect for the process if you did that....not to mention a real foundation for future posting.


And I would suggest that you stop being so sanctimonious.

Not to re-open old wounds, but this is precisely what COS was talking about when he said you overstep your bounds in making so many assumptions about people. Your presumption and condescension is extremely rude and entirely unwelcome.

As it happens I'm a student screenprinter. That means I'm an extremely bad printer with a lot to learn, but washing out screens, coating screens, pulling a squeegee and "the process" is not, in fact, new to me.

It is clear that you have a lot to offer the forum members in the way of expertise (your Pool tips were interesting and showed a lot more depth than any other post on a trade show has here), but you need to learn that not everyone here is entirely ignorant either.


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## jay allen (Mar 14, 2006)

I wasn't implying that you, or anyone else, was ignorant. I was, however, pointing out that you were wrong. There is a big difference......one, I'm sure, that with a little thought, you can discern.

The only thing I know about you is that you are from Australia. Lets suppose for a moment I said, knowing very little about Australians, that you were all red headed, verbose, pricks. But I said it with authority...and backed it up with pages of well written posts....that, in my mind, proved that all Australians were red head, verbose, pricks. Are you getting my point yet...... See I have no basis for making a statement like that as I've never been to Australia. Furthermore, if someone from Australia suggested that I was wrong, explained why I was wrong, and generally tried to show me the error of my ways....I might eventually listen. Evidently that isn't how it works here.

To hear that you are learning the screenprinting trade is absolutely ****ing beautiful. What we are talking about here is practically an industry standard. It isn't an industry standard for no reason. Just because you don't understand it doesn't make it shady, unethical, or wrong. Believe me, if you decide to stay in the business and eventually open your own shop....you will understand it.

BTW.....You can quit pissing in the corner here. I know this your turf.....newcomers must earn their stripes and all that. Nothing I have said has been sanctamonious. I have responded to ill informed comments from people that probably meant no harm...but clearly didn't understand the issue at hand. If this forum is to be taken seriously I would suggest posters know something about the topics they address.....and not jump people who try to help. I encourage you to print out your eloquent post......tack it up on your wall.....keep going to screen printing school......and contact me in a few years when you understand the trade. We can both have a chuckle about it then.


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## Solmu (Aug 15, 2005)

jay allen said:


> I wasn't implying that you, or anyone else, was ignorant. I was, however, pointing out that you were wrong.


You implied the reason I was wrong was because I knew nothing of screenprinting, i.e. ignorance.



jay allen said:


> What we are talking about here is practically an industry standard. It isn't an industry standard for no reason. Just because you don't understand it doesn't make it shady, unethical, or wrong. Believe me, if you decide to stay in the business and eventually open your own shop....you will understand it.


I never disputed that it was a common practice. Just because it's often done, doesn't mean it's right (or even sensible). You said yourself not many printers are wealthy, and it's because they take for granted stupid things like this. It costs them business. Do that in enough stupid little ways, and they go broke.

I've argued a case for why it is unnecessary, inconsistent, and ultimately harmful to a business's image. You haven't convinced me, and I would argue any bystanders, of why this viewpoint is so wrong.



jay allen said:


> BTW.....You can quit pissing in the corner here. I know this your turf.....newcomers must earn their stripes and all that.


Not my turf sadly. I wouldn't need to watch my language so much if it was  Rest assured if I step out of line Rodney will smite me, and smite me good.



jay allen said:


> Nothing I have said has been sanctamonious.


Let's just rewind the tape there shall we:



> People have no idea what is involved in screen printing, they don't respect the work it takes, and in general are a complete pain in the ***. I would suggest that you spend a few days washing out screens, pulling a squeegee, etc, etc, before posting anyting else about how shady screen printers are. You would have a new found respect for the process if you did that....not to mention a real foundation for future posting.


Yeah... I definitely beg to differ. In fact I think sanctimonious was me being extremely polite.

Personally I think I made my point quite well. If the cost of failed shirts is incurred in both cases, it should be treated the same in both cases. You've failed to address the issue at all - your entire argument rests on the notion that screen printers deserve to make a living, and a bunch of stretched analogies about steaks, work experience, and a round about tirade in which you tried to call me a long winded prick without having the decency to just come right out and say it. It is self evident that printers have the right to earn a living. That doesn't mean that a common industry practice isn't, to fall back on a perfectly suited term, "shady".



jay allen said:


> Furthermore, if someone from Australia suggested that I was wrong, explained why I was wrong, and generally tried to show me the error of my ways....I might eventually listen. Evidently that isn't how it works here.


I did that in the last post. You ignored it in favour of addressing the fact that we don't like each other. A more interesting topic of conversation for you perhaps, but nowhere near as productive for anyone I can assure you.

If you're so sure I'm simply misunderstanding the issue, why don't you explain it better? Why didn't you address a single one of the points I made? Why not answer the question about how many mistakes are actually made, and therefore how relevant a surcharge would be? Are we failing to appreciate just how many f**kups a printer makes, or is there actually very little money lost in that area?


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## Rodney (Nov 3, 2004)

Closing this thread.

In case you missed my hints, this is a friendly forum  

If you want to mix it up and go back and forth in a battle of wits, please take it off board.



T-Shirt Forums Guidelines said:


> *Be Courteous!*
> 
> 
> Don't attack others with words. Personal attacks on others will not be tolerated. Flaming, derogatory insults and hate speech will not be allowed in this forum. If you disagree with another member’s point of view, do so in a mature and civil manner. If someone seeks help from other forums members, please do not respond unless you have something positive or helpful to add. If you find yourself being flamed or insulted by another member, please do not dignify that person with a response. Notify a moderator or admin and let us handle it.


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