# Comparison of Automated Rhinestone Machines, Mesa, IOLine, CAMS - costs/outputs



## charles95405

It seems everyone is jumping into Rhinestone machines. Mesa Dist send me an email about their NEW mini cam machine...takes up to 2'x2' footprint...under 20K (probably means 19,999.99) or least for $399 a month....see more at
http://www.mesadist.com/cams_1v-2p.shtml?2009_feb_minicams

Maybe they will show it at NBM or ISS


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## tfalk

Something with your link is hokey, it tries to take to you google mail? I think the link you really want is 

http://www.mesadist.com/cams_1v-2p.shtml?2009_feb_minicams

SWF had one of these at ISS Atlantic City, I'm pretty sure it was the same thing. Unfortunately, the machine is 2x2, not the placement field... their ad says "has a working area of 9.8 x 11.8 inches". Nice device but it needs to have a bigger field for that price...

As we discussed in the other thread, I think that's the advantage the Ioline has... and you could buy 3 of them for the price of the SWF/Mesa unit...


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## lizziemaxine

I looked at the demo on their website. 
Too pricey for the size of the design it makes.


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## charles95405

Ted...you are right!...don't know how the google mail appeared...but I fixed the link

I posted this for info only...surely not a purchase I would make..but I think Mesa is trying to get into the price range of DAS, Roland and Eagle but they sure aren't there yet


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## dan-ann

I wonder if these companies realize how much money they might make by making a more affordable machine? I dabble in rhinestones and would love to have an affordable machine but I am not about to spend 5000+ plus for one. I think they are missing a whole big market


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## Equinox

dan-ann said:


> I wonder if these companies realize how much money they might make by making a more affordable machine? I dabble in rhinestones and would love to have an affordable machine but I am not about to spend 5000+ plus for one. I think they are missing a whole big market


I completely agree.


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## charles95405

You are not going to get a system much under the $3500 for the Eagle Ultraforce. Companies that bring out a new system are taking a huge risk to design, test, produce, stock and service machines. If you don't see a way to make return on investment for $3500 that can make rhinestone designs, engrave on metal, cut vinyl signs, decals and even cut leather, you won't do better with a $1000 machine...which is the low end price for a manual sytem...There is a $119 manual system at DZU STORE but other than that you are better off either by completed motifs or using templates until you build up a customer base


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## sunnydayz

I think the difference though with the cams machine, is that it does not only make a template but the completed transfer. It sets the stones and can use different sizes and colors, and its all automatic. That to me makes a big difference of making a template and having to manually set all the stones. I think at least they are getting to a better price point with this smaller machine, then the larger brother of this one, which is much much more expensive  If I were in the market right now for a new machine, I would definitely take a look at it


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## archangelfashion

wa wa wee wa those machines seem nice but ouch on the price, i'll keep using templates and my hands.


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## dan-ann

I agree I will keep making my own designs. I have no need for all the other parts of the machine. My business is embroidery - crystals are fun and sell well - and a nice addition but not worth that kind of money to me


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## charles95405

BobbieLee...I am confused...normal for me I guess...you mentioned this machine made templates as well. Looks to me like it only makes the motif for transfers..does not indicate it will place holes in material for fill in...or did I misread again. If it does make templates, the price would be more attractive...not for me but for some others


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## sunnydayz

No you are not confused Charles  I am hehe. No really I misspoke. It does just make the completed motifs. It does not make the templates.


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## Don-ColDesi

Commercial rhinestone machines are for companies that are committed to making rhinestone motifs and decorated garments a significant profit center for their business. With speeds of 150-170 stones per minute and 2-6 different stone sizes/colors per design, the machines can easily return hundreds of dollars per hour in profit. Add to this the fact that the only labor involved is in loading the machine with stones, placing and removing the transfer media and cutting the transfers apart and I think that you will see that they can be a very sound investment for your business. Those of us that sell these machines also get an immense number of calls from "casual" rhinestone users who we refer to those who buy the machines from us - helping them to make even more money.
I have over 18 years experience selling equipment to this industry and I have never sold equipment that has such a great potential for rapid ROI as these machines. They are pricey, especially when compared to embroidery or digital printing solutions, but they also offer the highest profit potential of any other apparel decorating equipment. Take a $2 t-shirt and put $1 or less of ink on it and it sells for $5-15, embroider a $10 golf shirt with $1 worth of thread/backing and it sells for $15-20, take a $3-4 shirt and put $1-5 worth of rhinestones on it and it sells fot $40-75! Now that is serious margins!


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## CustomRhinestone

Does anyone have one of these small machines? I am curious as to how they perform. Has anyone seen them at the shows? It sounds fast. Unfortaunately, I have not had a chance to see one yet.


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## Vicki Flores

If I had the money to burn I would buy one in a heartbeat. My husband and I are firm believers in being debt free AND since I am retired I am only interested in working part time - don't want the stress of a bigger business. But if I were 20 years younger I would jump at the opportunity if possible!! I do love working with rhinestones!


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## allhamps

I would buy an automatic rhinestone motif maker in a heartbeat, if I had the capital. However, this one is too small (design size) and too limited in colors (2), for that price. One day, there will be an automatic machine for us smaller business folks


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## IslandGirl

I would love to have the smaller Cams as I think you can add extra hoppers and do up to 4 colors and sizes which is workable for me. Has anyone seen this machine in person? I think the price is around 17,900 now. Still, a little to to expensive for me at this point.  I have it on my wish list though.


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## CustomRhinestone

The design can be approx 10 x 12 and you can do up to 16 sizes/colors by running the design through multiple times. 150 stones per minute with average 125 stones per minute. All size hoppers are available


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## allhamps

So if my design is 8 colors, then I have to run it through like 4 times at 2 colors each time? That's kind of like having to do more than one template. How accurate are the stone placements if you have to keep running the same design through multiple times for each group of colors? At what point does this come non-efficient? I don't do very many designs with 1-2 colors.


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## CustomRhinestone

I had a chance to see one in action and it is awesome. You make one design then check which colors to run through. You would have to run it through 4 times but each color change takes about 30 seconds. You still average about 125 stones per minute. The extra time is with changing the colors. It is designed to read where the other colors were placed so it does not affect placement. It is still efficient just more time than the 6 hopper cams but for the money you save (about 30000) worth a little extra work. I also do templates, and the multi colors can be a nightmare sometimes depending on how your design is structured. The speed makes up for the inconvenience. I have calculated that I can do an 1800 element design 6 colors in under 20 minutes. I don't even want to go there with a template besides ss6 are so difficult and static is awful with rhinestuds.


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## CustomRhinestone

Slick,
You have some really nice designs. Do you make them all with templates? You do use lots of colors, do you do a different template for each color or brush each color on seperately?


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## allhamps

Thanks!! I do them all with templates. It depends on the design and the location and number of different colors. Sometimes, if they are not to extensive, I cut one template and brush the colors in separately, often taping off the area I don't want to use. Most often, though, I do separate templates. It does start to get a little crazy once you go above 4 colors


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## bob emb

Hello All,

Bob McCormack here in NJ.

DonSWF is correct. We have the big brother to the $20K machine. If you want to stick to stencils or the eagle syste that is fine. But if you want to do 6 color or 6 sizes for the same design you need an auto machine. I cam consistantly produce ss 6 deisngs at 165 stones per minute ss 10 designs 150 stones per minute. No hand setting- crooked lines - bad spacing etc let alone the time it takes for this.

If anyone would like to see the machine in action you are always welcome at uor shop to kick the tires.

Best Regards To All,

Bob


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## broidery

I'm still new here so I hope I get all this right....I do love the sparkley stuff too. I have been researching all things available and I hope this is helpful info... I have seen systems that are hand held like a woodburning tool, machines that are crude in the automation that you feed the "wand" but "eyeball" the rhinestone placement directly onto the garment, total robotics (so very expensive and cool stuff), and most recently a new product that I was initially wow-ed by because it was a software program that you use your cad cutter with to create a template, then flood the template with rhinestones to make the transfer. The company sells a product that you are cutting the template out of that reminds me of the black magnetic stuff for a refridgerator magnet. I didn't choose to buy the product for 2 reasons personal to me....you have to buy a "kit" which includes rhinestones and clip art designs, thus increasing the overall price of the software and I'm really budget conscious right now. The other reason I didn't buy it is because I use smaller than SS6 size stones in my designs which are all custom and done by hand right now. I don't know if I'm supposed to say what the product was, so I guess let me know if anyone is interested in who sells this. I do not have any connection to this vendor.


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## charles95405

ana...sounds like you are talking about the Eagle Ultraforce..nice system and you do not have to buy anything extra...about 3K gets the system and some freebees...DAS also has a system that you will have to buy some 'extras' but it is about 5K or so...I think they have a smaller system for about 3.5k.. both systems work very well and each has its 'devotees'

Roland has a desktop engraver..it is about 5.5K..won't do vinyl but will do engraving...problem is the program that comes with it is very basic..you need R-Wear Studio...another 500 or so...to really work it..word of warning it does not come with very good documentation..in my opinion...nonetheless works well


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## broidery

Hi Charles,
Actually, it was called SmartDesigns for around 2K. so now I will check the products you listed that I was not aware of. They sound more expensive, but I will save up for the right answer, if I can find it. Some times you just get lucky finding the right product. Thanks for the new ideas.


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## allhamps

Ana, Charles is right each of these systems has it's "champion promoters". I have the DAS (Smart Designs system) and yes the "required supply pkg" was not initially appealing to me either, but I liked the system so I made the initial investment. It has paid for itself about 2x now since I purchased in 11/2008. I don't buy their stencil material any more, there are cheaper alternative that work just as well. I also have my own direct supplier for rhinestones, although the ones I got in the pkg came in handy. You mentioned that you only use stones smaller than ss6. I didn't even know they made them smaller. I have no idea how accurate the stencil method would be with stones smaller than ss6. What is the actual diameter of your stones, maybe I can try cutting a template in that size and see how it works. It might save you some research. I've heard a lot about the other systems, and each seems to have it's good points. I just wish we could get all the good points from each one into one reasonable priced system. Maybe some of the other guys here with different systems can try cutting smaller than ss6 size templates for you also. I sure would like to know which system can handle that the best.

Good luck


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## veedub3

broidery said:


> Hi Charles,
> Actually, it was called SmartDesigns for around 2K. so now I will check the products you listed that I was not aware of. They sound more expensive, but I will save up for the right answer, if I can find it. Some times you just get lucky finding the right product. Thanks for the new ideas.


DAS for 2K, I thought the cheapest you could get this system was in the neighborhood of $3,500 and that was only because you had some of the items they require you to have.
Did the price drop on these? 

Katrina


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## broidery

Thank you, Slick...I did have the company cut me a template in the smaller size to try and the stencil material was too thick. The hole was too small too, I think because you could not get the stones to "seat" in the holes even WITH effort.

I was thinking of using my Stahls thermofilm to try again, because it is a thicker vinyl. Haven't had much time to revisit yet. 

SS3 only comes in Swarovski, I also use SS5, the sizes are 1.5 and 1.8 mm. SS6 is 2.0 mm. I am working with very detailed designs that require a smaller stone overall. SS6 and up tends to create big designs that won't work for my clientele. Swarovski is a high dollar market that not everyone will accept too. It does look oh, so, beautiful though.


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## broidery

Hi Katrina,
The price quote included discounts for my membership to NNEP (Nat. Network of Embroidery Professionals) and a trade show special at the time. I guess you have to factor in the annual membership fees I pay to belong to my trade association.


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## veedub3

broidery said:


> Hi Katrina,
> The price quote included discounts for my membership to NNEP (Nat. Network of Embroidery Professionals) and a trade show special at the time. I guess you have to factor in the annual membership fees I pay to belong to my trade association.



OK got it. Thanks,

Katrina


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## allhamps

Hey Ana, thanks. Can you tell me who you use as a supplier for your ss3 and ss5 stones? (I guess you might have to send that by PM). I just did a name design for a client, and you are right, we couldn't size it as small as she wanted, because the ss6 stones only allow for a certain size, before the design looses it's detail. I'd love to get some of the smaller stones, even if they do cost more. That's a cost the customer will have to bear, if they want the tiny, tiny designs


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## legacydesignz

Wow 2K for the DAS. They recently quoted me 5k and that was with a bunch of extra throw ins.


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## broidery

Okay, I looked up my quote and it was 2,500.


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## legacydesignz

broidery said:


> Okay, I looked up my quote and it was 2,500.


Does it include the cutter?


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## plan b

Thats software only


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## charles95405

Roger is correct..software only... I have the DAS system..as well as others... and I paid about $2200...that was software only...the upgrade to smartcutpro2, stone stencil software, some swaroski stones, brush, backing material, template material, some cool ready made .ready to cut..stencils and a book of other art..I already had the cutter...So my cost was software, minus my discount from other sources..


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## supramom

I signed the lease agreement for a CAMS 1V-2P on April 28. First machine arrived damaged. Replacement is supposed to arrive Wednesday (June 9).

Oh, and it was $15,000.


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## allhamps

Hey, that sounds pretty good. I've been thinking about leasing, but I don't begin to understand half of what it takes. Can you give any details on who you used and how the payments work (just general stuff). You can PM it if you want. I'd be very interested


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## sjidohair

I would be interested as well, in fact i will start a new thread,, please find it and post in there for us, how all this works and anyone whom has done this please respond as well,


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## Ruby MHarvey

I am with you Vicki I have been pricing these machines also and just don't have the funds my business is just now really showing profit, but not enough to go out and buy a machine and still have working capitol.


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## allhamps

I looked up this machine on one of the distributor's sites, I think it was Mesa, and it only does 2 colors or sizes at a time. I think I briefly saw something about additional hoppers being available to allow for up to 4 color/sizes, but I have to do more checking. I like the idea of the machine, and the site was indicating a monthly lease payment of approx $400 (please don't quote me, I'm trying to remember off the top of my head, but will check), which isn't that bad. However, my biggest drawback is the small size of the working area. Approx 50% of the designs I do are larger in size so I don't know if I could make this machine profitable for me? It would definitely come in handy, though. Decisions, Decisions


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## lizziemaxine

The biggest drawback to me, other than price, is it requires a compressor to use - very noisy.


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## allhamps

I don't think I saw that mentioned in anything I looked at. So I would also need to factor in the price of a compressor? Anything else I missed


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## lizziemaxine

allhamps said:


> I don't think I saw that mentioned in anything I looked at. So I would also need to factor in the price of a compressor? Anything else I missed


Once the sales guy said you had to use a compressor I kind of tuned out, but I think they offer a package that includes the compressor. I'm not 100% sure on that.


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## txshirts

First, leasing isn't a "bad" thing, you just need to be able to keep the equipment busy or carry the cost.

We already have high-quality compressed air, so a compressor is a non-issue. 

Leasing is an easy to access finance mechanism for a business.

To find the "real" cost of leasing, add up the costs and subtract the equipment price.

For example, a $1500 machine on a lease with a 10% buyout.

This means the machine is $15K cash and at the end of the lease we have agreed that the machine is worth $1500. So after I make my last payment I "buy" the machine for $1500.

That means that I would pay:
$469 for a 36 mo lease
$367 for a 48 mo lease
$305 for a 60 mo lease

Which totals up to a cost of:
$18384 for 3 years
$19116 for 4 yrs
$19800 for 5 years

This yields a "finance cost" of 
$3384 for 3yrs
$4116 for 4yrs
$4800 for 5 yrs

Now when you divide out the finance cost you see that the cost is $80 to $90 per month over the term of the lease for financing the machine.

The only real decisions you need to make are:
1- Do I have space?
2- Can I afford to "carry" the machine if I do nothing with it?
3- Can I handle the balloon payment at the end?
4- Is it worth $80/mo to have this machine?

The first 3 are a yes for me..... no big deal.

As for #4.
Let's say you have an $8/hr employee. Factor 30% for taxes and benefits aka "load". That's 10.40 per hour. Add 25% for a reasonable return. You are at $13 per hour is what an $8/hr employee is worth. I like to just use 25 cents a minute as that is a couple of dollars higher.

So $80/mo is equivalent to 
6.2 hours of labor per month. Not much. Again a no brainer if you do these regularly.

Let's look at lease vs. labor i.e. true value of the machine.

36 month lease, worst case scenario $520/mo. 40 hours of labor is equivalent to my lease cost. So if I do more than 40 hours of setting stones by SBC (Shake - Brush - Cuss) or by-hand a robot would be cost effective. Anything else is easy.

Unlike employees, robots rarely get sick, don't quit, don't leave and start their own business, don't have a bad day and decide they hate you, don't have family drama, don't have smoke breaks, cell phones, etc. 

The only real question for me.... is if I can tolerate 2 colors or if I need 6. I personally am leaning towards 2 new and 6 used when the business justifies it.

I've leased alot of equipment and found that you are better to under-buy then over-buy your equipment.


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## sjidohair

Brian, 
That was the Best Breakdown, I have seen on TSF, for anything,,, 
You rock,,, 
thank you for taking the time to research and Break that all down for us,, 

Sandy jo
MMM


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## irish

TXshirts, your example is very good.... if you can get those terms. In your example, if this were financed from a bank for example with those payments, this would be the equivalent of 8% interest - not bad for a business loan.

I just tried to get a lease for some equipment and the equivalent interest rate was.... hold on to your hat.... *40%* That is not a typo. So be very careful when you lease, there are still sharks out there. Oh, and this is the company used by a major embroidery machine seller and a DTG seller, so it isn't a fly-by-night operation.


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## txshirts

sjidohair said:


> Brian,
> That was the Best Breakdown, I have seen on TSF, for anything,,,
> You rock,,,
> thank you for taking the time to research and Break that all down for us,,
> 
> Sandy jo
> MMM


 
My pleasure..... I write for Stitches Magazine and used to write for Advantages.


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## sjidohair

irish said:


> TXshirts, your example is very good.... if you can get those terms. In your example, if this were financed from a bank for example with those payments, this would be the equivalent of 8% interest - not bad for a business loan.
> 
> I just tried to get a lease for some equipment and the equivalent interest rate was.... hold on to your hat.... *40%* That is not a typo. So be very careful when you lease, there are still sharks out there. Oh, and this is the company used by a major embroidery machine seller and a DTG seller, so it isn't a fly-by-night operation.



oh my Irish,, all i can say is RUN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## sjidohair

txshirts said:


> My pleasure..... I write for Stitches Magazine and used to write for Advantages.


Thanks Brian,

I have my eyes on a few machines myself,, so please keep posting , what you decide and why,,,, 

MMM


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## txshirts

irish said:


> TXshirts, your example is very good.... if you can get those terms. In your example, if this were financed from a bank for example with those payments, this would be the equivalent of 8% interest - not bad for a business loan.
> 
> I just tried to get a lease for some equipment and the equivalent interest rate was.... hold on to your hat.... *40%* That is not a typo. So be very careful when you lease, there are still sharks out there. Oh, and this is the company used by a major embroidery machine seller and a DTG seller, so it isn't a fly-by-night operation.


Well, my numbers came from Beacon Funding's current lease calc as of today. I've used them on several things and they were reasonable.

I think in terms of financing, my preferences would be:
SBA Loan 
Credit Card
Lease
Cash
Loan from friend/spouse/family


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## txshirts

sjidohair said:


> oh my Irish,, all i can say is RUN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


 
Definately... you need to also not be afraid to tell them terms either.... watch out for lease termination and auto-renewal clauses.... they are EVIL.


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## txshirts

sjidohair said:


> Thanks Brian,
> 
> I have my eyes on a few machines myself,, so please keep posting , what you decide and why,,,,
> 
> MMM


My current pecking order is the IOLine Crystal Press, Cams 1v-2p, Cams 6 color (used)

I need to automate and would like to go to smaller stones...... interestingly my close friends are against it until I show them the template and explain/show the process to them. At which point they change their mind instantly.

Once they see the process they understand why you simply can't call in 10 temps to fill a 1,000 unit order. You could of course do that.. but a robot would make very short work of it.

I'll give you one of my test cases....

We have a design we classify as 400 stones.. meaning it is between 300 and 400. We charge $6.58 per unit to build and apply the design. That works out to $237.17 for 38 shirts, which is what the order was. It was all SS10, clear crystals. This was a contract job. We suggested it be sold for $9.73 per shirt, plus shirt cost/markup.

This had a labor allowance of 4.548 hours based on 1 minute to apply and 3 minutes per design to build the designs.

Stone cost was $1.66 per 400 stones.

That yields a cost of $3.66 per unit for build/stones/apply/material.

I factor 25 cents for transfer material.

I also add 10 cents in for electricity.

So we should, in theory make $116.805 on this job.

With a Robot, we would make $50 extra by eliminating the assembly labor. I'm "stealing" the time to change it by assuming that we would be doing something else and not dedicated to watching the machine run.

In contract you really do need to watch your seconds..... and it doesn't really take 1 minute to apply a transfer.... so it all works for pricing models.

Now, if I bought my stones from MESA in Dallas.... not the cheapest, but far cheaper then ThreadArt (who I use now because they are local and keep stock close by with better pricing then DAS)..... it would cut my stone cost in half to 80 cents. Pink is another critter and is generally twice as much.

So, for me what a Robot does is free up employee labor to do something else while producing a quality product. At the same time, if we decide to do a job with 1500 stones, we aren't going to burn 30 minutes of labor on each one. 

I'll use two theoretical examples. Let's say my customer with 400 stone designs comes back and needs 230 shirts. Well, for one thing, we didn't build each design in 3 minutes..... it took longer then that. But let's just say we had managed to get fast at it and do them in 3 minutes. You are still talking about 600 minutes of labor which is 12 hours of work.... you can comfortably call that two days of doing nothing but SBC (shake - brush - cuss). 

A robot would set a design in 8 minutes and I estimate that this design would do 2 to a sheet if properly arranged. That means a run time of 16 minutes and roughly 8 per hour, assuming slighly less than 400 stones per design. Crystal Press would take 28.9 hours of run-time to complete this job. However, as you only have to interact with it 4 times per hour, you are not working on it for 3.5 days..... and it's not quite as tedious for me to walk in and touch it every 15 minutes (at commercial breaks during the evening)

On the other hand, a Cams 1v-2p would set 170 stones per minute. This would finish a deisgn every 2.5 minutes and require attention. You simply can't leave a machine that needs that much attention... so it would require an operator, not to mention the cost of the air. The cams has a smaller design area and would only complete 1 per cycle or about 20 per hour. Granted it's faster, but it would chew up 1.5 days of labor. Now, if it was next to the heat press, this isn't so bad.....and you could very likely put an employee there to simply produce shirts.

There is another factor to consider.... output per dollar of capital. Cams 1v-2p is reputed to be $18K.... although MESA has it on their site from $11.9K.... so it's 2 to 3 times the investment of the IOLine machine. An operator can do one shirt per minute, and trust me when I tell you labor is your most expensive input. An operator doing 1 shirt per 3 minutes is going to be bored to tears for 2 minutes of every 3 and that means they will get into trouble by chatting, texting, reading, etc. So, in a high-volume situation (which I'm not but wish I was)..... you would increase your capital to "load" your operator. 2 cams machines would be required to keep an operator busy...... that's $24 to $35K of capital. 3 IOLines would do the same thing at $18K and producing a design every 2 minutes on average.

My point here is that you can scale in manageable steps with the simpler machine. It is, however slower..... and In my opinion the one obvious mistake was not allowing it to run more material like the Endless.


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## sjidohair

Brian,, what is the size of output of those 2 machines,,, ?( size of Transfer)

And as far as software for designing,, 
have you seen any machine that lets you create in other programs and lets you import to the robotic machines?

Great info,, 
I really appreciate it,, and i know of others that are working as hard as you and I to get these orders out,and considering robotics for our future.


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## txshirts

sjidohair said:


> Brian,, what is the size of output of those 2 machines,,, ?( size of Transfer)
> 
> And as far as software for designing,,
> have you seen any machine that lets you create in other programs and lets you import to the robotic machines?
> 
> Great info,,
> I really appreciate it,, and i know of others that are working as hard as you and I to get these orders out,and considering robotics for our future.


The IOLine is a 15 x 12.75 area which is a reasonably sized full front max. The cams 6 is a 15x15 and the Cams mini is 11x10 which is a bit tight.

Now what I think you really want size for is ganging designs.... so the typical 5 inch by 3 inch design you are going to get 6 on an ioline and 10 on a cams 6 and 4 on a cams mini.

Ganging gives you material efficiency and time to do something else while the machine works.

The other thing to consider is speed...... 50 stones per minute for the IOLine, Cams6 (1st generation) is 70, Cams6 (2nd gen - current) is 170, and cams2(mini) is 150.

So here is an intresting calculation for my 400 stone design. It would be similar on a different design, it excludes some things like maintenance and changeover time... but the idea is to get a cost per theoretical unit of production.

Givens:
400 stones per design, 7 hours of production per day, 20 days per month. 36 month ROI goal. (allocate the machine cost over 36 months)

Cams2 (1v-2p): 
2.67min/design, 150spm, $12Knew, $333/mo, can produce 3150 units/mo at 10.5c/ea

Cams6 (2nd gen):
2.35 min/design, 170 spm, $45Knew, $1250/mo, can produce 3570 designs mo, 35c/design (3 times the cost per unit of production)

Cams6 (1st gen):
5.71 min/design, 70 spm, $14K/used, $388.89/mo, 1470 units per month at 26.4 cents/ea.

IOLine:
8 min/design at 50 spm. $5900/new. $163.89/mo cost. can produce 1050 units/mo, 15.6 cents/design.

So what this tells me is that the Cams2 isn't bad if you can live with it's size and limitations on colors..... 

the IOline is a tad slow, but the low cost makes it workable for most of us who are not doing 1000 copies of a 400 stone design.

I'd also throw in that on a large machine you would want to run more then 7 hours per day. For that matter you could run the IOLine the same way... or buy two of them.

The hours of production per month are conservatively set at 140/mo and you can easily get more out of a machine.

One of the hidden costs with the CAMS machines is the cost of compressed air. They use 80 lpm, which is roughly 2.5 cfm at 80 PSI. That's not a ton, but it is still substantial... it's about the same as half what a air-drill uses and an air-drill is a air-hog.


----------



## sjidohair

Wow great info again,,,,, 
thank you so much,,,, 

Sandy Jo
MMM


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## allhamps

Wow Brian, thanks for everything in this post!!! I am planning for the cams 1v-2p by the end of the year and will no doubt be leasing. My initial concern was the small transfer area, as maybe 60% of my designs are multi-color and 12+ inches on the longest side. However, it is the one color and two color designs that I typically have 100+ orders for, and sometimes have to subcontract out. I figure that I would be saving, then making money by being able to work on these types of orders WHILE still making that 12x15 4 color design that I only need 5 of and still come out on top. Your information has given me a lot of insight and now I don't feel like I'm winging it when I try to convince my hubby that the investment is worth it.


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## sjidohair

Slick,,
I agree,, The info that Brian has given us is outstanding,, and has filled in alot of gaps for me too.

MMM
Sandy jo


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## txshirts

allhamps said:


> Wow Brian, thanks for everything in this post!!! I am planning for the cams 1v-2p by the end of the year and will no doubt be leasing. My initial concern was the small transfer area, as maybe 60% of my designs are multi-color and 12+ inches on the longest side. However, it is the one color and two color designs that I typically have 100+ orders for, and sometimes have to subcontract out. I figure that I would be saving, then making money by being able to work on these types of orders WHILE still making that 12x15 4 color design that I only need 5 of and still come out on top. Your information has given me a lot of insight and now I don't feel like I'm winging it when I try to convince my hubby that the investment is worth it.


 
Out of curiosity, why the Cams over the IOLine?

I'm wondering if I'm missing something. My tendency is to always want the machine for the order that we get one time.... I've made that very expensive mistake a few times in the past. I try to buy the machine I can keep busy closer to 100% of the time while still managing my turn time goals.

I'm really on the fence between the IOLine and the CAMS 1v-2p. The difference is I would lease the CAMS and buy the IOLine outright. Buying is usually less expensive IMHO.


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## Krusty

Hello again, Brian

I replied to your other post before I read this thread and I want to compliment you as well for your excellent analysis. I'd just like to add a couple of points. I think we only have a couple of Crystalpress users running two machines, but I think that's an interesting approach (yeah, sure, I'm biased, but stick with me for a minute here). 

First, it gives you redundancy, which is a good thing with any production machine and, second, it allows you to "add a second shift" in high demand situations. You also can run different designs in the same timeframe.

Krusty


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## api

Hello Brian,

I read your excellent analysis about the different machines. Let me add a few points:

1.) If a machine is 3 times faster than the other but you don't want to go there and touch it so often (e.g. in every 3-4 minutes) you don't HAVE to. Go there in every 12 minutes and you will still have the same output as you'd receive from the slow machine.  High speed is (or can be) a huge advantage while low speed is a burden.

2.) The CAMS are fast but you won't have 170 spm from them in real life situations. 120-130 spm is realistic however.

3.) CAMS need a compressor AND an air dryer ("chiller") as well. If you don't use an air dryer, you will have problems with the moisture in the compressed air. The water can easily kill the solenoid valves.

4.) The price of the chiller is about $700 - $1300 depending on the "size" (litre/min or cf/m) of the unit.

5.) The CAMS 1V-2P uses 80 l/m (2,8 cf/m) but the 1V-6P needs 120 l/m (4,2 cf/m) air volume.

6.) If you can do 1000 units (images)/month for e.g. $5/each you can generate $5,000 income max. If you can do 3000 units/month, it is $15K/month. There is 3 times more "headroom" for growing your business with the faster machine.

7.) If you outgrow your small rhinestone machine what is the next step? If you have e.g. $10K worth of IOLine machines (2 pieces) how much can you trade in, and which is the larger IOLine machine? With CAMS you can trade in the smaller machine and purchase a larger one. The only issue is that you will need a larger compressor (and chiller if you bought the $700 one instead of the $1300 at the beginning).

8.) If you compare the IOLine to the CAMS - in my opinion - they are not even in the same "ballgame". IOLine is a toy while the CAMS is an industrial machine. Of course their price is also very different. It SEEMS to me that IOLine is a printer (cutter) which was modified for rhinestone placement. They did a good job however. CAMS 1V-2P is a sturdy, pneumatic robot, designed especially for rhinestone placement. It is the small brother of the 1V-6P or the 4H-3P (which has 4 heads and places 600 stones per minute). The whole working concept is the same (e.g. moving X-Y table instead of rubber rollers for mylar positioning), and the pro building blocks, parts are also the same. 

9.) The software of the CAMS (GemMaster) is not too great and it is only for CAMS machines. I don't know anything about the IOLine software. It can easily be better than GemMaster. 

This is just my opinion and I could be wrong...

Regards, 

Api


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## allhamps

txshirts said:


> Out of curiosity, why the Cams over the IOLine?
> 
> I'm wondering if I'm missing something. My tendency is to always want the machine for the order that we get one time.... I've made that very expensive mistake a few times in the past. I try to buy the machine I can keep busy closer to 100% of the time while still managing my turn time goals.
> 
> I'm really on the fence between the IOLine and the CAMS 1v-2p. The difference is I would lease the CAMS and buy the IOLine outright. Buying is usually less expensive IMHO.


I don't have enough information on the Ioline. Maybe I missed it but I was looking for something that would be faster than me. What is the stone setting rate of the Ioline, and is there the ability to trade up if I outgrow it in say 1 year? Right now, my only holdback with the cams is the additional need for a compressor, and maybe having to upgrade the electrical capacity in my work space. I know I wouldn't have to do that with the Ioline, but I just haven't seen/found enough info on it to convince me.


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## txshirts

api said:


> Hello Brian,
> 
> I read your excellent analysis about the different machines. Let me add a few points:
> 
> 1.) If a machine is 3 times faster than the other but you don't want to go there and touch it so often (e.g. in every 3-4 minutes) you don't HAVE to. Go there in every 12 minutes and you will still have the same output as you'd receive from the slow machine.  High speed is (or can be) a huge advantage while low speed is a burden.
> 
> 2.) The CAMS are fast but you won't have 170 spm from them in real life situations. 120-130 spm is realistic however.
> 
> 3.) CAMS need a compressor AND an air dryer ("chiller") as well. If you don't use an air dryer, you will have problems with the moisture in the compressed air. The water can easily kill the solenoid valves.
> 
> 4.) The price of the chiller is about $700 - $1300 depending on the "size" (litre/min or cf/m) of the unit.
> 
> 5.) The CAMS 1V-2P uses 80 l/m (2,8 cf/m) but the 1V-6P needs 120 l/m (4,2 cf/m) air volume.
> 
> 6.) If you can do 1000 units (images)/month for e.g. $5/each you can generate $5,000 income max. If you can do 3000 units/month, it is $15K/month. There is 3 times more "headroom" for growing your business with the faster machine.
> 
> 7.) If you outgrow your small rhinestone machine what is the next step? If you have e.g. $10K worth of IOLine machines (2 pieces) how much can you trade in, and which is the larger IOLine machine? With CAMS you can trade in the smaller machine and purchase a larger one. The only issue is that you will need a larger compressor (and chiller if you bought the $700 one instead of the $1300 at the beginning).
> 
> 8.) If you compare the IOLine to the CAMS - in my opinion - they are not even in the same "ballgame". IOLine is a toy while the CAMS is an industrial machine. Of course their price is also very different. It SEEMS to me that IOLine is a printer (cutter) which was modified for rhinestone placement. They did a good job however. CAMS 1V-2P is a sturdy, pneumatic robot, designed especially for rhinestone placement. It is the small brother of the 1V-6P or the 4H-3P (which has 4 heads and places 600 stones per minute). The whole working concept is the same (e.g. moving X-Y table instead of rubber rollers for mylar positioning), and the pro building blocks, parts are also the same.
> 
> 9.) The software of the CAMS (GemMaster) is not too great and it is only for CAMS machines. I don't know anything about the IOLine software. It can easily be better than GemMaster.
> 
> This is just my opinion and I could be wrong...
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Api


API,
Great response. In all fairness, I think the Crystal Setter (IOLine) has a place. It's a better alternative to hand-setting with the SBC (shake - brush -cuss) method. I would have jumped on it two years ago instead of the DAS system.

It is however, a bad fit for my business because the consumable cost is significantly higher $1.50/sf vs .19 s/f and the speed is slow which could be a problem.

I am a commercial screenprinter and as such have ample high-quality air. Twin - 10HP industrial 3 phase compressors with over 300 gallons of storage and a chiller. We typically run one compressor at a time and reserve the other as a "hot spare" to ensure continued operations. We alternate the compressor on a weekly basis. After all, no compressor, no press, no business. Compressed air is CRITICAL to us. Our compressors are sized to provide 37cfm at 120 PSI continuous which is the air requirements for twin M&R 10 station 8 color presses. We downsized to one press and so when I say we have AMPLE air, I mean it's ample. I often wonder about our air quality, but the best sample is the filter bowl on the press. We've never seen anything in it.

Now I consider that to be clean. Unless there is something peculiar in a cams machine it should have the same sensitivities that every other pneumatic device has. At any rate, we will put a filter on it just in case.

One area where the IOLine does shine is that they partnered with CadLink to use CADLink's excellent sign software for rhinestone placement. IOLine designer is remarketed CADLink. We own several other CADLink tools and they take some learning but they are very good at what they do.

All in all, I agree with what you've said and think the CAMS 1v-2p is a better fit for us. The cutoff in my analysis was our ability to pull in orders larger then 100 pieces with more then 300 stones. That is where the taskload separates the two machines dramatically.

I would not however, write off the IOLine completely. They are introducing this week that uses a 30" mylar sheet and is capable of handling korean/chinese crystals. It would be a good fit for someone who has smaller production needs and a smaller budget. It's an easy credit card purchase. It would work for a large segment of the smaller decorators and the cutter arrangement isn't a bad thing.

The other machine that I think bears visiting is the All American machine which appears to be a rebranded Vision Tech / Chinese machine. It has a nice open setting and the 4 bowl model is 22K. 

I personally have chosen the CAMS 1v-2p as it is the best fit for my business and the availability of local support and training is an important issue.


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## txshirts

allhamps said:


> I don't have enough information on the Ioline. Maybe I missed it but I was looking for something that would be faster than me. What is the stone setting rate of the Ioline, and is there the ability to trade up if I outgrow it in say 1 year? Right now, my only holdback with the cams is the additional need for a compressor, and maybe having to upgrade the electrical capacity in my work space. I know I wouldn't have to do that with the Ioline, but I just haven't seen/found enough info on it to convince me.


The IOLine appears to have a stone setting rate of 30 to 45 stones per minute depending on distance traveled. Not blindingly fast, but considering that 70 was the gold standard 2 years ago, it's not bad either. It will still handle complex designs and small stones, so I think it fills a gap in the market for someone who does 72 piece and smaller orders. It would work great in that environment. It is not however a replacement for a Permaboss Libero Endless... which is one hell of a nice machine. Load it, set it, forget it. It will run for hours unattended and produced finished, cut transfers. CAMS won't do that... but then again, I don't need that. I need to do production work where I have specifical small to mid-sized orders of moderate or better complexity.


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## sjidohair

Brian,,, 
I did not even consider that the machines or hoppers could not work with korean stones,, Thanks for that info,,,,,,

MMM


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## txshirts

sjidohair said:


> Brian,,,
> I did not even consider that the machines or hoppers could not work with korean stones,, Thanks for that info,,,,,,
> 
> MMM


I learned that by asking questions....  The european stones are much higher quality ... mainly in consistency... Korean is next, and Chinese are last. The variable sizes, even though minute make it hard for the machines.

Apparently IOLine has worked the kinks out and can handle Korean stones.


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## sjidohair

well i also imagine on a not so nice stone that the over flow of glue,, can make the robotic arm not pick it up,, on the bottom of the stones,,, ,

ok another question do most machines also pick up rhinestuds?


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## txshirts

sjidohair said:


> well i also imagine on a not so nice stone that the over flow of glue,, can make the robotic arm not pick it up,, on the bottom of the stones,,, ,
> 
> ok another question do most machines also pick up rhinestuds?


I don't know about the glue... I doubt that it's a big deal.. they are using vacuum to "hold" the stones against an intake from what I can tell.

As for rhinestuds... again, I doubt the material makes a difference. I bet these machines would pick and place rat droppings if you put the droppings in the right location.

I suspect that the challenges of rhinestone production are not much different from electronics placement except that it matters how the components sit for electronics... i.e. which side faces where.


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## api

Brian,

If you have plenty of good quality air and you can get the discounted price, I think the CAMS 1V-2P is a "no brainer" for you. I agree that the IOLine has its place on the market among the other machines it is just not as good as the CAMS.

Actually there is "something peculiar" in a CAMS machine comparing it to other pneumatic devices like heat presses and such: It is the solenoid valves. There are - i think - four of them in the CAMS machines and they work like machine guns; switching the air on and off about 150 times per minute (!). They are really precise and sensitive parts so they need clean (oil, dirt and moisture-free) air. 

Good luck with your new CAMS machine. I think it will serve you better than the IOLine ever could. If you outgrow the 1V-2P there is the 1V-6P (what we have now). I really like the large X-Y table and the 6 color/size setup. It is sooo convenient when we create a larger 2-3000 stones design and the CAMS can "knock it out" in one quick run.

If I coud forget the GemMaster software...  It is definitely NOT CADLink quality...


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## txshirts

api said:


> Actually there is "something peculiar" in a CAMS machine comparing it to other pneumatic devices like heat presses and such: It is the solenoid valves. There are - i think - four of them in the CAMS machines and they work like machine guns; switching the air on and off about 150 times per minute (!). They are really precise and sensitive parts so they need clean (oil, dirt and moisture-free) air.


Good comments... except this one... nonsense. Every pneumatic machine has a manifold with electrically controlled solenoids that control the air. They are VERY standard devices that are more or less interchangeable and if CAMS is using cheap ones they can be replaced with BOSCH which is the gold standard. 

I used to own a TUF and a TAS press before I bought my M&R. M&R runs circles around the others, but they are all very similar and I had to do alot of work on the TUF and TAS..... There is NOTHING magical going on in our industry with this equipment..... it's pretty universal grainger level stuff.


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## api

If you have a machine which places 8-9000 stones per hour, you MUST HAVE good quality stones. You don't have time manually replacing hundreds of bad stones. If you buy good quality stones there is no problem with the glue and the machine will pick the stones up without any difficulty. The CAMS can handle the rhinestuds as well. You can flip the disk in the rotary feeder and you can use it for studs. Most of the time you don't even have to flip the disk, the rhinestone side works fine with the studs.


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## api

I think you misunderstud me. I am NOT saying that the solenoid valve is magic, what I am saying is that it works hard in the CAMS machine. If you introduce water, oil, dirt into the air system the solenoids WILL be damaged. Actually the CAMS use FESTO solenoids which are one of the best in the market.


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## Krusty

Just to clarify, the original CrystalPress I will handle both European and Asian rhinestones, but the new CrystalPress II is optimized for Asian stones, which means that we've added some features that enable it to handle Asian stones better and faster than the earlier machine. As mentioned above, Asian stones are less consistent in size, less consistent in shape, and they are dirtier, all of which affects how we handle them, so we took what we have learned over the first two years and applied that to the new model. The new model also handles European stones faster and it runs rhinestuds as well (which the CP I cannot do).

Brian, I'm sure the CAMMS will work out well for you. You have sure done your homework. All these various rhinestone systems have their niches to fill. I still hope that you will stop by our booth in Ft. Worth as I'd just enjoy chatting with you.

Krusty


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## sjidohair

This is some good information coming out , and I thank you for that,, 
Extremely informative, for me, and I hope others as well.

thanks to all that is posting it, and keep it going for all of us, 
I am still a lil confused at what software each of these systems use,, 

are their any that let you import designs already done that you have made from other systems, such as DAS, Winpcsign, ACS, 
Rwear, or others?
Thanks again
Sandy jo
MMM


----------



## txshirts

api said:


> I think you misunderstud me. I am NOT saying that the solenoid valve is magic, what I am saying is that it works hard in the CAMS machine. If you introduce water, oil, dirt into the air system the solenoids WILL be damaged. Actually the CAMS use FESTO solenoids which are one of the best in the market.


 
I agree, FESTO is one of the best..... Any machine will suffer if you introduce dirt and water..... the appropriate type of oil may actually benefit the seals, but that varies by o-ring design..


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## txshirts

Krusty said:


> Just to clarify, the original CrystalPress I will handle both European and Asian rhinestones, but the new CrystalPress II is optimized for Asian stones, which means that we've added some features that enable it to handle Asian stones better and faster than the earlier machine. As mentioned above, Asian stones are less consistent in size, less consistent in shape, and they are dirtier, all of which affects how we handle them, so we took what we have learned over the first two years and applied that to the new model. The new model also handles European stones faster and it runs rhinestuds as well (which the CP I cannot do).
> 
> Brian, I'm sure the CAMMS will work out well for you. You have sure done your homework. All these various rhinestone systems have their niches to fill. I still hope that you will stop by our booth in Ft. Worth as I'd just enjoy chatting with you.
> 
> Krusty


I still plan to look at the machine..... and I think it's got a great niche. The best contribution IOLine has made is to put price pressure on the rest of the market.


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## Krusty

sjidohair said:


> This is some good information coming out , and I thank you for that,,
> Extremely informative, for me, and I hope others as well.
> 
> thanks to all that is posting it, and keep it going for all of us,
> I am still a lil confused at what software each of these systems use,,
> 
> are their any that let you import designs already done that you have made from other systems, such as DAS, Winpcsign, ACS,
> Rwear, or others?
> 
> Thanks again
> Sandy jo
> MMM


Hi Sandy Jo,

The CrystalStudio software that comes with the CrystalPress
Will convert rhinestone shapes into points that work for the
CrystalPress as long as you can export either a .PLT or .DXF. 

Krusty


----------



## iolinexpro

The IOLINE is the better choice to go with. I have a couple of IOLINES and used to have the CAMS 1V-2P until I got rid of it. The IOLINE is much cheaper than the CAMS and is basically maintenance free. You can buy multiple IOLINES for the cost of 1 CAMS machine. You just plug it in like a printer and print on a large surface as opposed to the CAMS 1V-2P which has a tiny working field for the $20,000+ that it will cost you including the air compressor. The cost for this type of machine is not worth the money IMO. The air compressor is much too loud and is very annoying and it also accrues a higher electricity bill. There is also electrical work that needs to be done for the compressor to be compatible and may cost up to another $1,000 to higher an electrician to hook up the power to the dedicated breaker. As someone mentioned earlier, there are solenoids that can easily get damaged inside the CAMS that will have to be replaced at the cost of $1,500! The IOLINE is portable and can be used inside your business as well for customers that want to have a certain design or word created instantly on the spot. You can not do that with the CAMS. The CAMS also does only 2 colors and for $20,000, that is not a sound investment! The IOLINE is pretty much maintenance free and the CAMS has a ton of maintenance needed to be done in order for it to run properly. The CAMS will need to have its hoses replaced periodically, broken apart for cleaning, and draining of the air compressor daily which becomes a hassle. There were many times when my CAMS didn't work properly that made my business come to a halt for several days to even a couple of weeks. I lost a lot of clientele this way and it took forever for a local technician to come out to service what the problem was. The software that comes with the IOLINE crystal press is far superior to the software of the Gemmaster software that comes with the CAMS. The IOLINE crystal press software can use corel and illustrator files with the ability to automatically trace over lines using vectors as opposed to setting stones primarily manually with the gemmaster. Everyone in the rhinestone industry is moving towards the IOLINE CRYSTAL PRESS and moving away from the CAMS for obvious reasons. At a recent trade show, the IOLINE was the machine that everyone sought after and not the CAMS


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## txshirts

iolinexpro said:


> The IOLINE is the better choice to go with. I have a couple of IOLINES and used to have the CAMS 1V-2P until I got rid of it. The IOLINE is much cheaper than the CAMS and is basically maintenance free. You can buy multiple IOLINES for the cost of 1 CAMS machine. You just plug it in like a printer and print on a large surface as opposed to the CAMS 1V-2P which has a tiny working field for the $20,000+ that it will cost you including the air compressor. The cost for this type of machine is not worth the money IMO. The air compressor is much too loud and is very annoying and it also accrues a higher electricity bill. There is also electrical work that needs to be done for the compressor to be compatible and may cost up to another $1,000 to higher an electrician to hook up the power to the dedicated breaker. As someone mentioned earlier, there are solenoids that can easily get damaged inside the CAMS that will have to be replaced at the cost of $1,500! The IOLINE is portable and can be used inside your business as well for customers that want to have a certain design or word created instantly on the spot. You can not do that with the CAMS. The CAMS also does only 2 colors and for $20,000, that is not a sound investment! The IOLINE is pretty much maintenance free and the CAMS has a ton of maintenance needed to be done in order for it to run properly. The CAMS will need to have its hoses replaced periodically, broken apart for cleaning, and draining of the air compressor daily which becomes a hassle. There were many times when my CAMS didn't work properly that made my business come to a halt for several days to even a couple of weeks. I lost a lot of clientele this way and it took forever for a local technician to come out to service what the problem was. The software that comes with the IOLINE crystal press is far superior to the software of the Gemmaster software that comes with the CAMS. The IOLINE crystal press software can use corel and illustrator files with the ability to automatically trace over lines using vectors as opposed to setting stones primarily manually with the gemmaster. Everyone in the rhinestone industry is moving towards the IOLINE CRYSTAL PRESS and moving away from the CAMS for obvious reasons. At a recent trade show, the IOLINE was the machine that everyone sought after and not the CAMS


Um, okay... BS.

1. The IOLine machine is S*L*O*W. 

2. The IOLine has the same limitation as the CAMS 1v-2p... 2 colors or sizes at a time, requires a change between colors.

3. All machines require maintenance. Period. Air Compressors need minor maintenance a few times a year and about 30 seconds every day or two to drain the water. 

4. Air Compressors can be located away from your work area.

5. Transfer material costs on the IOLine are 4x to 8x the cost of roll based transfer material.

6. You need to have a proper electrical supply for either machine.

7. Festo is a world class manufacturer of air components based in Europe. Festo > Pneumatic & Electric Automation Worldwide | Cylinder, Actuator, Drive, Valve, Sensor and Compressed Air Supply

8. Most pneumatic components are very easy to maintain and can be maintained by anyone with basic mechanical skills, a screwdriver and patience.

9. While compressed air is a cost factor, it is cheaper then $1.31 extra per sheet of material.

10. Design area. 12x15 is hardly "massive" compared to 10x12 (Cams 1v-2p) or 15x15 (cams 6 color). The fact is that rhinestones appeal to women and that the bulk of the work is a 4x8 form factor. The appropriate placement for the front of a womans shirt has a max of about 8x10. If you needed to do something larger you could always run multiple parts and press them multiple times..... not really a big deal for that one off job.

11. If you are focused on tiny customers that need you to bring your shop to them, perhaps you should consider scaling your business. Most customers don't bring their company in to get a t-shirt made for everyone. Typically you ship the product to the customer after it's made. Sure you can make money with fairs and events, but you could do the same with pre-made transfers and your heat press. Waiting 30 minutes while the design is pecked together doesn't really seem like a viable alternative to me either.


----------



## plan b

This seems to be the same type of debate that has followed vinyl cutters for years and the same goes here.

Both machines more or less do the same thing with the same end results,, one is faster than the other, one more expensive than the other and I am sure more features or lack of on each machine.

Which one is the best ? it all boils down to which machine fits your business profile and your budget


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## txshirts

plan b said:


> This seems to be the same type of debate that has followed vinyl cutters for years and the same goes here.
> 
> Both machines more or less do the same thing with the same end results,, one is faster than the other, one more expensive than the other and I am sure more features or lack of on each machine.
> 
> Which one is the best ? it all boils down to which machine fits your business profile and your budget


Completely agree.... Both machines have a niche that they do well. One is more industrial and oriented for production. The other is less expensive with higher per unit operational cost.


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## allhamps

Ok, Brian, help me out here. This is one of my duh moments. You keep saying the Crystal Press is more expensive per unit, but more expensive that what? More expensive per unit than the cams because you may not be able to use paper from the roll? (And I say may, because where there's a will there's a way). How about it being LESS expensive than using the template method, or maybe equal to in cost, because now I get to eliminate the cost of the template material? Did I miss that comparison somewhere in this thread


----------



## txshirts

allhamps said:


> Ok, Brian, help me out here. This is one of my duh moments. You keep saying the Crystal Press is more expensive per unit, but more expensive that what? More expensive per unit than the cams because you may not be able to use paper from the roll? (And I say may, because where there's a will there's a way). How about it being LESS expensive than using the template method, or maybe equal to in cost, because now I get to eliminate the cost of the template material? Did I miss that comparison somewhere in this thread


Sorry I wasn't more clear..... relative to the per unit costs of a CAMS machine.

The factors that go into my production costs are:
Transfer material
Stones
Labor
Electricity for Heat

I think compressed air is a factor for most of you. I've discounted it because I use compressed air for my presses and the volume consumed by the CAMS is minor. My running utility cost is approximately $3/hr for my entire shop. Gas and Water are roughly 40% of that. If you multiply out the consumption on a properly sized compressor with minimal leaks you'll see that it's reasonable enough.

Transfer material for me is 19 cents per linear foot. As I can cut my material to whatever size is needed the waste factor on the CAMS will be negligible. On the IOLine it is a fixed 15x12 sheet that has a margin on each side. Like all vinyl cutters the IOLine can't reach the edge of the material.

Labor is the largest cost on the shake-n-bake method (aka templates). $12.50/hr is a good cost basis that covers the majority of the people you would pay to do this. Even if you do this yourself, $12.50/hr is a good plug-in number to use. You have a job if you can't pay someone else to do it..... it's a business when you can pay someone else to do the work and still make money. You need to make money on your investment, including labor. Therefore I like to use 40 cents/minute for my labor cost as that covers some profit as well as some calculation error.

A design that takes 10 minutes with the template method costs $4 to make, plus stones (1/2 cent each), plus transfer material (19 cents). So a design that has 400 stones, which takes an average of 10 minutes to finish by hand on a template system costs $6.20 to make by hand.

You can make approximately 5 of these per hour and are limited to one color for the most part. 

The IOLine machine can do 30 to 45 ish stones per minute which means it takes about 10 minutes to do this design. There should be minimal labor involved, material is $1.56 and stones should still be about $2. So let's call it 1 minute of labor. That gives you a unit cost of $3.97. I'm putting the electricity in the "so-what" pile and figure that the pennies of electricity will be made up in my gross operating profit. You can do approximately 5 per hour, so your revenue per hour doesn't change.... more on this in a minute.

The Cams machine can do 150 stones per minute. So the same design takes approximately 2.5 minutes to make. This is fast enough that I can double-dip my pressing labor and just have someone stand next to the machine with a heat press and wait for designs to come out. Factor 1 minute per design, 19 cents for transfer material, and $2 for stones. That's a completed cost of $2.59. This is almost 50% less then the IOLine. I can do appoximately 15 designs per hour which is 3 times faster. 

Back to revenue per hour. If you can land bigger orders you need to worry about how much you can make per hour in production. Let's say this is a 50 piece order. It has a value of $6.51 retail and $3.906 per unit wholesale. So the value of the order excluding setup is $195.30 wholesale and $325.50 retail. The order will take me just over 3 hours, so let's call it 3.5 hours to complete on the CAMS and 10 hours or 1.25 days by hand or IOLine.

That yields $60/hr revenue for wholesale and $100/hr for retail - approximately. I generally don't like to engage in business activities that don't yield $60 to $100/hr in revenue. You may choose to do otherwise. 

Now let's look at profit. Recall that my cost on the IOLine is $3.97 and my sell price for retail is $6.51. So I'm making $2.54/unit... nice. Wholesale I'd lose money. Hourly I'd earn just under $13. That's fine if I have a pile of work, and a mess if I don't.

With the CAMS my cost is significantly lower at $2.59. It would let me make $20/hr retail and about $7/hr wholesale. It's a tad tight on the wholesale side...... but remember, the machine is fast enough that my employee can stand there and press shirts at which piont I'm producing completed product, not just designs. So I can modularize the production cost and this is where it pays to shake out the "fluff" and rounding errors..... or look at the big picture.

My 3.5 hour job has a hard labor cost of $12.5/hr * 3.5 or $43.75 (includes tax, insurance, etc). My material cost is $10 for transfer material. My stone cost is 400x50x.003125 (actual stone cost) which is $62.50. My net cost on the job is $116.25 and my sell price wholesale is $195.30. That's a 59% ROI for 3.5 hours or half-day of work. Not bad. 

Those are my actual prices and actual costs.... seeing as we all have the ability to buy from the same places these should be no secrets and don't really threaten my little corner of the world.

My point here is that you do need to understand how to calculate ROI and Profit and Loss in order to be successful in business. 

I check my jobs from time to time and have an excel spreadsheet to plug in what goes into a job to make sure I'm still making money.


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## api

iolinexpro said:


> The IOLINE is the better choice to go with. I have a couple of IOLINES and used to have the CAMS 1V-2P until I got rid of it. The IOLINE is much cheaper than the CAMS and is basically maintenance free. You can buy multiple IOLINES for the cost of 1 CAMS machine. You just plug it in like a printer and print on a large surface as opposed to the CAMS 1V-2P which has a tiny working field for the $20,000+ that it will cost you including the air compressor. The cost for this type of machine is not worth the money IMO. The air compressor is much too loud and is very annoying and it also accrues a higher electricity bill. There is also electrical work that needs to be done for the compressor to be compatible and may cost up to another $1,000 to higher an electrician to hook up the power to the dedicated breaker. As someone mentioned earlier, there are solenoids that can easily get damaged inside the CAMS that will have to be replaced at the cost of $1,500! The IOLINE is portable and can be used inside your business as well for customers that want to have a certain design or word created instantly on the spot. You can not do that with the CAMS. The CAMS also does only 2 colors and for $20,000, that is not a sound investment! The IOLINE is pretty much maintenance free and the CAMS has a ton of maintenance needed to be done in order for it to run properly. The CAMS will need to have its hoses replaced periodically, broken apart for cleaning, and draining of the air compressor daily which becomes a hassle. There were many times when my CAMS didn't work properly that made my business come to a halt for several days to even a couple of weeks. I lost a lot of clientele this way and it took forever for a local technician to come out to service what the problem was. The software that comes with the IOLINE crystal press is far superior to the software of the Gemmaster software that comes with the CAMS. The IOLINE crystal press software can use corel and illustrator files with the ability to automatically trace over lines using vectors as opposed to setting stones primarily manually with the gemmaster. Everyone in the rhinestone industry is moving towards the IOLINE CRYSTAL PRESS and moving away from the CAMS for obvious reasons. At a recent trade show, the IOLINE was the machine that everyone sought after and not the CAMS


Well, there is a lot of INCORRECT INFORMATION in this post:

1.) _"Ionline is the better choice to go with"_ - It is true for some people. For others it would be a HUGE mistake.

2.) _"The cost for this type of machine is not worth the money IMO."_ - for some people. For others it is the right way to go. 

3.) _"The air compressor is much too loud and is very annoying..."_ - for some people. Others can buy a rotary (hydrovane) or a screw compressor and it is not noisy at all. And - if the shop layout allows it - the compressor can be outside. (We have a rotary compressor outside and we hear nothing inside.) 

4.) The cost of hooking up the compressor for us was $250.

5.) _"...there are solenoids that can easily get damaged inside the CAMS that will have to be replaced at the cost of $1,500!"_ - *It is simply not true. *

If you use dry compressed air, they are fine and won't get easily damaged. The CAMS comes with 2 extra solenoids by the way. The price of the FESTO solenoid is $70. They are installed with 2 small screws. There are 4 solenoids in the CAMS altogether. How can anyone spend $1500 for replacing a solenoid? Is the beluga caviar included in the bill? 

6.)_ "... the CAMS has a ton of maintenance needed to be done in order for it to run properly."_ - WOW! 

I didn't know it and it seems to me that our CAMS doesn't know it either.  In the last year we just used our CAMS with ZERO maintenance. I don't even know what should I do as maintenance. Hoses are fine (no periodical replacement necessary), I am not crazy to break apart the flawlessly working machine for cleaning. It is closed and clean. 

7.) _"...and draining of the air compressor daily which becomes a hassle."_ - Yeah. Right. I have to open the drain valve for 15 seconds every day. It is close to the floor so - I admit - I have to bend to reach for it. It is a hassle indeed when by back hurts. The noise of the blowing compressed air is also disturbing to my ears for 15 seconds. 

8.) _"Everyone in the rhinestone industry is moving towards the IOLINE CRYSTAL PRESS and moving away from the CAMS for obvious reasons."_ - WOW!

I see already that my fellow business partner - who has a CAMS and puts 36 000 stones/hour to $0.30 (16" x 16") transfer sheets - selling his CAMS and buys a dozen (or two) Iolines "for obvious reasons".


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## allhamps

Ok, we've beat the CAMS vs Ioline to death, so somebody talk to me about the All American dual hopper machine DTG Automatic rhinestone setter


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## txshirts

allhamps said:


> Ok, we've beat the CAMS vs Ioline to death, so somebody talk to me about the All American dual hopper machine DTG Automatic rhinestone setter


 
lol, I thought I saw it twitch! Get it!


anyhow, the All-American machine appears to be a rebadged VisionTech. Not much info on the internet about them, but in Europe someone else sells it. It looks to me to be China Inc. Model 201.

It's very "embroidery" like..... uses DST files and proprietary software, has a frame like a Embroidery machine, and a table-style architecture. It's reminiscent of a single head embroidery machine.

Functionally, I saw one as the ISS show. It comes in two flavors, a motif maker and a applique maker. The motif maker makes the transfers, the applique maker sonic welds the stones to the shirt. If you do small volume high complexity the applique version is probably a better bet. Sonic welding is quiet, fast, and efficient. No heat used. The downside is it works one shirt at a time, but the vagaries of complexity won't bother it. 

The machine was very quiet and very smooth. The sales person was busy distracting me so I didn't really stop and study it. It also was running a small design. I gave it a cursory look as it was 2x the price of the CAMS machine. It is however a nice machine and if I were located in the NE I would probably look harder at it.

AA used to rep CAMS and so divining what happened would be interesting. AA runs a 1st class sales operation and I couldn't pry anything out of them about CAMS other than they used to sell it. I tried a few times too.  

Their DTG printers were pretty slick as well, and their "spangle" machine was impressive (600 pcs/min)

Their equipment is well built, support is okay from my experience. They do offer classes. I bought a semi-automatic pad printer 5 or 6 years ago from them. It was a nice machine, did exactly as it was promised to do. I had some issues getting plates made and didn't want to spend dearly for their plate maker. I also had issues with being in a 90% humidity 95 degree environment.... it didn't get along with pad printing's volatile solvent based inks. In the end I concluded that Pad printing wasn't something I could get $1/pop for and that my energy was better spent on screenprinting where I could get $$ for my work. I liked their equipment and they did spend time on the phone with me helping me master the process.... I just concluded that pad printing was a headache and that I could source the product with the printing for free from ASI Suppliers..... so did I really want to chase after an order of 24 golf balls where I make 70 cents/ea to print them? small-order high-maintenance high-drama customers are low-profit. I sold the machine, called it a "lesson" and moved on. That's not AA's fault. The machine worked, they did support it, and I was able to sell it.

All in all, it was a very nice piece of equipment and I suspect their rhinestone machine is also.


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## txshirts

I should add...... 

The DST part uses sequin placements to mark the rhinestones..... we are are Melco shop and I haven't followed them over the cliff with every bounce of Designshop. We have a configuration that works and it's on the DON'T F**K WITH IT program. No upgrades, no hardware changes, etc. I wasn't sure if we could place sequins without upgrades..... and my digitizer/artiste(r) goes into a growling/whining/complaining routine at the mere mention of DST files. We joke that DST stands for Doesn't Sew Today as the files work fine on slow machines, can't be edited, and give us fits on our high performance Amayas. The Amaya's run at 600 spm for hats and 1000-1200 for flats. They are capable of 1600 spm when the wind is blowing just right. Actually the issue at 1600 spm is that the thread does break.

So anyhow, we didn't want to get a DST centric machine in.....

One kudo for IOLine is that they are using a rebadged CADLink package. CADLink makes Signlab and a few other things including the guts of what was US Screens FastRIP. CADLink has since brought FASTRip out on their own..... and we own 3 packages from them, so their software is easy for us to use. The software has a nasty learning curve, sort of like water skiing behind a jet-boat. There isn't a "slow" setting, only stop and go. However, the software is extremely good at doing vector layout and is the best package for driving a cutter, router, etc. I suspect closer inspection of that process would reveal the ability to use Signlab for rhinestones sans IOLine and import it into GEM-master. just a hunch.


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## allhamps

Thanks Brian, but 2x the CAMS? It's listed at 14,000. Isn't that about the price of the smaller CAMS? I know the CAMS has a lease option going right now, and I haven't had time to see if this one can be leased yet.


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## txshirts

allhamps said:


> Thanks Brian, but 2x the CAMS? It's listed at 14,000. Isn't that about the price of the smaller CAMS? I know the CAMS has a lease option going right now, and I haven't had time to see if this one can be leased yet.


You're right... it's $14900... Cams is $10900 right now. I think I skipped over the 2 bowl and was looking at the 4 bowl which is $20900. 4 seems to be the magic number in terms of stone diversity. Stone diversity is my "label" for color and size variation.

I don't know how it handles the multi-pass stuff... IOLine does it pretty gracefully, CAMS accomodates it, and it still sucks regardless of how you look at it. Multiple bowls is the most efficient way to do it.

I think placement field was 15x15 ish. So it's a nice option if the $4000 isn't important to you.

One of the things that swung me was the local support and the ability to get a tech here if I need/want one. There are some things I like to do myself, and some things I prefer to hire an expert for. My embroidery machines are an example of where I pay an expert to maintain and work on them. Could I do it? Probably, but I don't enjoy it and I have other things to do.


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## bob emb

The camms machine does not come in a 4 pot set up. Also the only way you are going to get the 6 pot camms machine for 20k is the old used one. I had both, the old machine is very very slow and the bumpers that stop the robotic arms continually go out of wack causing the machine to mess up. If you stay on top of it, which is a pain in the butt, it works.

Bob


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## txshirts

Good to know about the 70spm CAMS. They can be had for 15K to 16K constantly.... 

I'm moving forward with a CAMS 1v-2p and I think it will be a good machine for my purposes. My experience and research suggests that 1 to 2 stones covers most of it. CAMS' process for handling multiple colors is tolerable, but not graceful (change stones, reload portion of pattern).

My comments above were in relation to the 4 bowl machine. when I was looking at All-American's machine I skipped over the 2 bowl and looked at the 4 bowl. With regards to CAMS I'm going with a 2 and at some point in the future I'll consider a 6. 

When I bought a laser I made the mistake of buying the Cadillac first (Epilog 75Watt 18x24 Helix (deep bed))...... I should have bought a Zing - basic engraving laser that would have been a fraction of the cost and handled the majority of our work. Of course I don't think they made the Zing at the time.... so there you go.


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## BELLABUILDER

i AM JUST STARTING OUT
please what is the cheapest 6 color machine
or the cheapest machine out there that I can grow with
I will not lease at 300/400 a month
not for a newbie like me to do

what is the best software program for someone like me who does vistaprint templates and a little more difficult than moist
and a good embroidery and rhinestone machine

tia


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## broidery

You are very descriptive and thorough in your posts. I really appreciate your taking the time to share with those of us who want to really research this topic, and don't always have enough time to get the full scope. Thank you! I will look into some new options because of your post.


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## BELLABUILDER

thank you for researching

I looked at some youtube videos and those cam or odesi? machines are like 30k ouch, wondering if anyone had made a portable for under 1k for a starter to have some fun with


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## lizziemaxine

BELLABUILDER said:


> thank you for researching
> 
> I looked at some youtube videos and those cam or odesi? machines are like 30k ouch, wondering if anyone had made a portable for under 1k for a starter to have some fun with


The Ioline Crystal Press II at $6,000 is about a low as you are going to find a rhinestone setting machine. You might find a used one for less but not much less.


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## rhinestonelady

I just found this thread and wanted to say thank you to all who contributed all of the details here! Great info.


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## Stitch-Up

I'd like to thank everyone who's contributed to this thread, it's made for good reading. However, as someone looking to move from the cutting numerous holes in a thick vinyl to a more automated, multi-colour pattern creating system, I'm still unsure!

I would like to find someone that uses the All Alerican rhinestone setting machines for feedback. I already have the AA NeoFlex DTG & solvent printers and have to say, the support from the AA tech team is absolutely spot on, to be honest, I wouldn't know how to better it 

Of course their rhinestone setting machine is not, as yet, popular but I will try and get some feedback from existing owners.

Cheers

John


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## beanie357

Hmmm....... Maybe Peter should give existing Neo owners a free one. Esp. thee and me. The old bogo. Buy one Neo, get one rhinestone machne for free. hee hee hee

Cheers


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## Stitch-Up

I'll suggest that Shep however, I don't think we'll get beyond 'the beers are on me always' line


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## Stitch-Up

allhamps said:


> Ok, we've beat the CAMS vs Ioline to death, so somebody talk to me about the All American dual hopper machine DTG Automatic rhinestone setter


I'd keep an eye on All American, I hear a new machine is on the horizon.

From what I've learned, it'll create patterns upto 35 x 45cms at a speed of upto 400pcs/min and it won't require a compressor. 6 colour and stones will be gun magazine concept so no dropped stones.

End of January or early February is rumoured.


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## allhamps

No compressor, now that sounds like the machine for me, as long as I don't need to sell my sons to get one


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## allamerican-aeoon

allhamps said:


> No compressor, now that sounds like the machine for me, as long as I don't need to sell my sons to get one


LOL, You do not need put your son or daughter for sale. Actually at around 1/2 price tag. In TSF forum there are no secret. Some one know some how something. 
AA realized air is the biggest headache to the all air machines and the price. So AA start R&D 7 months ago all mechanical. 99%. 1% to flip stone. Smallest soundless Home Depot comp is enough $150. Changing color and size is takes 5-10 seconds. It is exactly as pistol magazine. Release and reload. 400 stones per minute minimum not up to (at least we trying). Machine look like my current sequin machine. Instead of sequin device magazines will lined up. Sample machine is running now with couple bugs. Mechanic is much more reliable than air and Chinese stone proof. Often machine sellers biggest excuse is "stones are bad". No more those excuses. Cuz no air will involve to pick up stone and release. We want to display in ISS Jan is our goal.


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## allhamps

Great, I'm looking forward to it. I'm definitely at the point where I need a faster machine, so the timing sounds perfect. Will it also be available in a 4 or 6 hopper machine?


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## sjidohair

Stitch-Up said:


> I'd keep an eye on All American, I hear a new machine is on the horizon.
> 
> From what I've learned, it'll create patterns upto 35 x 45cms at a speed of upto 400pcs/min and it won't require a compressor. 6 colour and stones will be gun magazine concept so no dropped stones.
> 
> End of January or early February is rumoured.


Thanks for the info,, 
Sandy jo


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## sjidohair

Wow, this sounds amazing, I agree with Slick,, Cant wait to see it, 
Sandy jo


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## allamerican-aeoon

allhamps said:


> Great, I'm looking forward to it. I'm definitely at the point where I need a faster machine, so the timing sounds perfect. Will it also be available in a 4 or 6 hopper machine?


Air has limit to move fast. Mechanical is not. Magazine size 1.5"wx 3.5deep x 10"h(we are adjusting now). Exactly as magazine on pistol but bigger. More color will not cost much. We will start with 6 magazines. include space between magazines 12 inch wide to total. Since body cost is major part of mfging so~ count of colors will not make big different. Each magazine cost is pretty reasonable. You can have 10 extra on shelve for be ready to change color or size. Apply same technology on sequin machine runs 900/min now.


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## sjidohair

Peter,
How large is the design area please?
Sandy jo


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## allamerican-aeoon

35cm x 45cm is but it is not finalize final product yet. We can change What is your ideal size? I want to hear your opinion. Enlarge is just changing X and Y shafts. Now we are testing with above size. Since all magazine is lined up as soldiers no turn around hopper times. Each magazine will hold 4-5 times more stones than hopper style. Do not need unload stones and rotate hopper size.


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## sjidohair

Peter the bigger the area to stone the better, 
as it will let us gang up transfers on one piece of tape ,and create more transfers faster.

I would love to see a 17 x 15 inch format, at the very least.
Not sure if that is possible,

Thank you so much for listening to what we the consumers want.

Sandy jo


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## beanie357

Well, now I'm almost excited. We were looking for a 1st qtr purchase of one of the machines of some kind. Agree biggerfield is needed. We already are doing stone over dtg, and with the demand for big prints, can't see a smallish design parameter. Hope Mr. Peter keeps us Neo-phytes in the loop.

Cheers and Beers


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## allhamps

I'm with you guys. Small working area has been one of the biggest drawbacks for me when trying to decide on a machine. The LARGEST issue, however, has been software, or the inability of the software offered with the machine to import and use other standard formats like an .eps or .plt file. I know the developers/companies want to present their own specific software, but they really need to keep in mind that some of us have been doing this for a few years now, and if I can't find a way to convert my hundreds of existing files into a file that can be used on a new machine, then I am more likely to not want the machine, no matter how impressive it is. I'm really not interested, at this stage of the game, in learning a new design software, or having to recreate designs I'm already using. *So in short, file format flexibility, to me, is even more important than a huge work area.*


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## sjidohair

Great question slick, 

what file import and export formats can this machine except?


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## allamerican-aeoon

allhamps said:


> *So in short, file format flexibility, to me, is even more important than a huge work area.*


OK, I heard. Size and design converts. I will call meeting for this.


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## allhamps

Ok, guys, bear with me while I ask this question, because I'm a little confused. I've seen the sequin machine, and the reels/cartriges that it uses. So when we talk about no compressor and using a gun/magazine type method for this new machine, does that mean we will have to purchase pre-filled rhinestone cartriges or will we be able to have cartriges that we can fill with our own stones?


----------



## lizziemaxine

allhamps said:


> Ok, guys, bear with me while I ask this question, because I'm a little confused. I've seen the sequin machine, and the reels/cartriges that it uses. So when we talk about no compressor and using a gun/magazine type method for this new machine, does that mean we will have to purchase pre-filled rhinestone cartriges or will we be able to have cartriges that we can fill with our own stones?


Good question.


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## BML Builder

allhamps said:


> Ok, guys, bear with me while I ask this question, because I'm a little confused. I've seen the sequin machine, and the reels/cartriges that it uses. So when we talk about no compressor and using a gun/magazine type method for this new machine, does that mean we will have to purchase pre-filled rhinestone cartriges or will we be able to have cartriges that we can fill with our own stones?


Great question Slick!!!! I have a lot stones and would rather not have to buy a cartridge full of stones for all the stones I already have and also for stones that I may not need a lot of. That could really get expensive. Thanks for thinking of it Slick!!!


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## allhamps

Not a problem guys. I love the thought of a compressorless machine, but being forced to buy stones in a pre-packaged fashion could be a deal breaker for me, since being able to import my stones at such a low price allows me to keep my prices down


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## allamerican-aeoon

allhamps said:


> Not a problem guys. I love the thought of a compressorless machine, but being forced to buy stones in a pre-packaged fashion could be a deal breaker for me, since being able to import my stones at such a low price allows me to keep my prices down


Open top lid. Pour stones from the bag to the top and close it. You can refill while your machine is running. I will show you next week. You can use Chinese stones! No pick up nozzle by air vaccumm. Irregular heights will not effect cuz it is sliding each stone in light speed. Lol. Patented.


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## BML Builder

That's great news Peter!! I look forward to seeing this new machine!! Will it be an open machine like your other one or will it be in a cabinet like the Cams, etc? What kind of problems would there be in debris buildup, like broken stones or the glue dots coming off that you find a lot in the Chinese stones?


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## allamerican-aeoon

40x50 cm = 14.75 x 19.68" is the goal now. Foot print is same as Sequin machine. Bigger it is price will go up. Way under $20000 is the target price. Still high to you? YN is $50000? 350 stones. Two nozzles. Am I wrong?


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## sjidohair

This machine is sounding really great Peter,, 

Thank you for listening to what the consumers want,, 

Can you tell us how stones will be changed out please.

Sandy jo


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## Stitch-Up

fads said:


> You are spot on about YN. Except for the price i think. Its called 2v-12p.


Please excuse my ignorance but what is YN?


----------



## Claudio

A new demonstration system of HOTFIX ERA is available for a limited time, under demand (from the software makers) only. Must contact through the forms at d-era.com.
This software is able to output to many rhinestone motif making machines (CAMS, Decor, Libero, etc), as well as vinyl cutters (for stencil making).


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## api

I went to the d-era.com website. There is no word about this new demo system.

Anyway, I wanted to ask for a demo version of HotFix ERA Stone. I found the Sales Form. I filled out, I wrote a message but I couldn't send it because the form requires a "Level" (?) which I don't have. I cannot even write in some false "qwertz" into the field to be able to send my message. The "Level" field is required but cannot be filled out or modified. Grrrrrr!

Round two: 

I went to the Technical Support Form on the same website. I filled out with the info I had, but since this is a request for demo software, I don't have a #&@&# serial number and purchase date. I had to write "QWERTZ" everywhere.

It is ridiculous that a company cannot have a simple Customer Support e-mail address, a phone number or at least a mailing address on its website.

A company behind walls!

They don't want me to contact them as a customer? They should say it clearly on the Home page and I will understand. 

Good start! I am frustrated already...


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## Claudio

Sorry Api.

The demonstration system is not published because it is not open for all, and there is a quota of 20 to 25 demonstration systems per week, for all countries.

We will fix the website form problem soon. Meanwhile you may send an e-mail to info @ stitchera.com.

Claudio
Sierra Technology Group
www.d-era.com
www.freesierrasoftware.com


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## api

Thanks Claudio,

I received an email from Stitch ERA and they said that there is no trial version for Hot Fix Era. Unfortunately the software cannot export in any file format; it uses its own native DSG format only.

Since we would need .yng format or at least .ai or .cdr, the Hot Fix Era is not for us. It would cost us over $1300 (!) and still we would be stuck with DSG. While the software LOOKS nice (just looks because there is no way to actually test it) it would cause more harm for us than good.

Maybe in the future, with a newer (export capable and more affordable) version we will be able to do some business with Stitch ERA.

Thanks anyway,

Api


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## Claudio

Api,

As I see, this message board has more updated information than our dealers, and I will give you a positive answer for the demonstration request if you contact me at the mentioned email address.

> I received an email from Stitch ERA and they said that there is no trial version for Hot Fix Era. 

Some dealers are not aware that the head office of Sierra Technology is offering a limited-time & limited number of demonstration systems.

> Unfortunately the software cannot export in any file format; it uses its own native DSG format only.

Not true. The software can send designs to CAMS machines (as the original software does), and it doesn't require any additional software. For CAMS owners the right software configuration is:
HFE Core (main digitizing module)
DHFR-CAM01 (output module for CAMS machines)

> Maybe in the future, with a newer (export capable and more affordable) version we will be able to do some business with Stitch ERA.

At this time, HOTFIX ERA is able to export (with our optional output drivers) to CAMS, Decor, Libero, AAS & other machines.

Sorry if there was any missunderstanding. Probably our development staff is runing faster than our sales staff


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## api

Claudio,

I think there is a misunderstanding between us about the expression of „exporting” the files. What I mean is creating a .dsg design in Hot Fix Era and exporting it as a DIFFERENT file format like .yng or .ai or .cdr. As I understand, you are talking about communicating with different rhinestone machines like CAMS and downloading the files into them. These are two different things. 

For us, to be able to SAVE the file in .yng or .ai format is a must. We have hundreds of designs in .yng already and thousands in .ai. We have different computers for designs and for manufacturing. All of our computers are connected in a LAN. We don’t want to modify our manufacturing setup where a GemMaster feeds the CAMS now. 

What we would need is a Hot Fix Era software for rhinestone designs and a capability of saving the files in .yng or .ai. This would fit into our system perfectly. But if we have to buy a software for $800 just to throw away the GemMaster from our manufacturing computer and at least two more Hot Fix Era copies for $500 to be able to create designs, we are wasting money for a new system, which is unable to create .yng or .ai files. That wouldn’t be a smart move. Don’t you think?


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## Claudio

Yes, you are right.

If you want to keep your current manufacturing setup and your gemmaster programs, then you need a software with the capability of saving YNG files. I don't know if this program exists.

HOTFIX ERA software outputs to many machine models (also vinyl & laser cutters), it may export EMF vector files (to interface other graphic applications); but it cannot save YNG native gemmaster files.

Just a comment: our upcoming version will be able to read YNG files (useful for those who want to replace gemmaster, and keep old designs).


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## api

Yes, a better program which is capable to save in .yng format would be great, but an export function for .ai or even for .cdr would be sufficient. GemMaster can import .ai files, and Corel can export in .ai format. So the Illustrator file format could be the common language.

Anyway. 

Thanks for all your effort; I appreciate your help. 

Api


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## Stitch-Up

allamerican said:


> 40x50 cm = 14.75 x 19.68" is the goal now. Foot print is same as Sequin machine. Bigger it is price will go up. Way under $20000 is the target price. Still high to you? YN is $50000? 350 stones. Two nozzles. Am I wrong?


Any update or news on this Peter?


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## sjidohair

I have been watching too and have held off , but really need to act on a machine soon, and would love any information that is now available.
Thanks Peter I know you are super busy.
Sandy jo


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## allhamps

I agree Sandy Jo. I am so way past the point of needing to add another Ioline, or upgrade to at least a 4-color/stone machine.


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## MrRudeDog

Claudio said:


> Just a comment: our upcoming version will be able to read YNG files (useful for those who want to replace gemmaster, and keep old designs).


Hi Claudio,

I've been using your software for a few months and recently updated to the latest version 11.21. When is the ability to import the .yng files going to be implemented? I have the Camms output module but am still unable to open the old Gemmaster files.

Thanks,

Ray


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## Claudio

Please ask your vendor. Reading YNG files (import filter for Gemmaster v2.9 on HOTFIX ERA) is an extra add-on.
At this moment this add-on cannot be purchased through the Service Center (e-commerce), but most deales are able to sell this option.


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## Stitch-Up

I'm certain the AA setter will be along sometime soon and while I'd like to have a machine now, Peter's description is very exciting and must be worth the wait.

It will happen.


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## jasmynn

Any updates on the AA setter? I need to make a purchase soin also.


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## vlcnmstr

I know it's an old thread, but one thing that may tip the scale for a small producer vs hand brushing is that these machines do not require you to make (or keep in hopes of future use) templates. the template is the computer file that runs the machine so it saves material, space for storage and the inevitable misplacement of that one template you KNEW you made once and now have to cut again. just reload a file from the computer to the machine and make the transfer. you can have as many templates in the computer as you want with no wasted sticky flock or backer board or other consumables.

djl





txshirts said:


> API,
> Great response. In all fairness, I think the Crystal Setter (IOLine) has a place. It's a better alternative to hand-setting with the SBC (shake - brush -cuss) method. I would have jumped on it two years ago instead of the DAS system.
> 
> It is however, a bad fit for my business because the consumable cost is significantly higher $1.50/sf vs .19 s/f and the speed is slow which could be a problem.
> 
> I am a commercial screenprinter and as such have ample high-quality air. Twin - 10HP industrial 3 phase compressors with over 300 gallons of storage and a chiller. We typically run one compressor at a time and reserve the other as a "hot spare" to ensure continued operations. We alternate the compressor on a weekly basis. After all, no compressor, no press, no business. Compressed air is CRITICAL to us. Our compressors are sized to provide 37cfm at 120 PSI continuous which is the air requirements for twin M&R 10 station 8 color presses. We downsized to one press and so when I say we have AMPLE air, I mean it's ample. I often wonder about our air quality, but the best sample is the filter bowl on the press. We've never seen anything in it.
> 
> Now I consider that to be clean. Unless there is something peculiar in a cams machine it should have the same sensitivities that every other pneumatic device has. At any rate, we will put a filter on it just in case.
> 
> One area where the IOLine does shine is that they partnered with CadLink to use CADLink's excellent sign software for rhinestone placement. IOLine designer is remarketed CADLink. We own several other CADLink tools and they take some learning but they are very good at what they do.
> 
> All in all, I agree with what you've said and think the CAMS 1v-2p is a better fit for us. The cutoff in my analysis was our ability to pull in orders larger then 100 pieces with more then 300 stones. That is where the taskload separates the two machines dramatically.
> 
> I would not however, write off the IOLine completely. They are introducing this week that uses a 30" mylar sheet and is capable of handling korean/chinese crystals. It would be a good fit for someone who has smaller production needs and a smaller budget. It's an easy credit card purchase. It would work for a large segment of the smaller decorators and the cutter arrangement isn't a bad thing.
> 
> The other machine that I think bears visiting is the All American machine which appears to be a rebranded Vision Tech / Chinese machine. It has a nice open setting and the 4 bowl model is 22K.
> 
> I personally have chosen the CAMS 1v-2p as it is the best fit for my business and the availability of local support and training is an important issue.


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