# Am about to buy some inks. What do i do



## lindsayanng (Oct 3, 2008)

I'm confused all over again.. i KNOW that i need some dye sub inks, but i keep reading about certain inks being for certain printers and what not.. 

I am getting an epson c88 printer. I will be printing on MOSTLY ceramic (mugs, tiles, ect) and SOME metal. 

I was thinking of NOT going the bulk system because i read that they can clog, and decided to go with a refillable cartridge.. Where do i get a refillable cartridge for that printer, and what kind of ink do i buy to fill it??

Oh, and one more somewhat unrelated question.. Can you subliminate on plastic?


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## lindsayanng (Oct 3, 2008)

for instance.. What is the difference between this:
Product Detail - DyeTrans.com

and this:

Product Detail - DyeTrans.com


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## charles95405 (Feb 1, 2007)

Couple of points...bulk systems are no more likely to clog than cartridges. The printer does not know what container the ink is in..with sublimation you will encounter clogging issues sometimes. I have a bulk system on a 1400 and it has clogged twice in a year..but it is not brain surgery to clean the nozzles. you cannot just print with dye sub in on plain pastic. anything that you sublimate must be 100% polyester in white/light and some pastels like from Vapor ware ..this is for material..for hard substrates like mugs, etc...they MUST have a polmer coating to be sublimated.

On your second question..the first product listed is for sublimation inks...the second appears to be for pigment inks that you would use for normal transfers. The two inks are not interchangeable..for example if you are printing with dye sub carts and then want to switch to pigment ink...that is not too wise because of the ink wasted in cleaning the heads...a printer has to be dedicated to one system or the other, but not both


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## lindsayanng (Oct 3, 2008)

what types of things would i print pigment inks on.. I will have TWO printers, so i might be interested in using one for dye sub and one for something else, I just have no idea what you would press with pigment ink.. Is that a different option to screen printing for t-shirts? I know the process of screen printing with the stencils and such, i have friends actually in the business, but that is ALL they do...

So i am really lots with what to buy.

So you think something like a CIS system from this place would be a good choice:
Inkjet Sublimation Price List

I see the C88 bag ink start up deal for about $621.00 - is that decent price?

Haha.. I offered to rebuild that company's website in exchange for some inks.. Their website is the WORSE thing to navigate EVER


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## sunnydayz (Jun 22, 2007)

Pigment inks are basically made for printing heat transfers with an inkjet printer. I can answer that question haha, the others for sublimination, I havent a clue


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## lindsayanng (Oct 3, 2008)

So you can print anything froma printer that can be pressed to a shirt?? You needs screens or a different printer entirely??


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## sunnydayz (Jun 22, 2007)

A printer with pigment inks you would print to transfer paper and then press it on. the c88 would work for it. Its basically for use with heat transfer paper. Also you can get them super cheap at the epson outlet and they come with the pigment ink cartidges. Here is a link for the outlet Clearance Epson Just Arrived - Epson Clearance Center - Epson America, Inc. . I think they have them for around $40 alot of the times there.


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## sunnydayz (Jun 22, 2007)

Yep I was just reading on the c120 they have for $39 and it comes with the durabrite ultra pigment inks  I know alot of the members here have bought them, alot of times in quantities because the price of the printer is actually cheaper then the cost of a set of inks and it comes with them


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## Riderz Ready (Sep 18, 2008)

If you spent time and reviewed the many threads you would find an alarming amount of issues with bulk systems for desktop Epsons. The term "clogged" may not always be an accurate term for a color not printing but the bottom line is bulk systems are not a closed system and overall will cause more headaches then one can imagine. I would not hesitate to say more people have tossed their bulk systems away and quit dye sublimation then have successfully used them. Refillable cartridges is the way to go -


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## lindsayanng (Oct 3, 2008)

I did read, and that is why i asked about the cartridge vs CIS system. It seems to be split down the middle

I am still confused on PIGMENT. WHAT can i press to with pigment ink? Can i do t-shirts with that??? IS there any kind of ink that you can print on heat release paper and use a heat press to make a permanent design on cotton t-shirts?

My last post was a little crptic and didn tmake much sense.. i was on about 2 doses of nyquill - still cant get rid of this cold


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## sunnydayz (Jun 22, 2007)

Hi Lindsay,

Yes you can print on transfer paper with the pigment ink. The results of how long it will last once transfered on the shirt really depends on the type of transfer paper used and the brand of inks. Pigment ink is used to print on transfer papers such as Ironall and jetwear for dark garments and jet pro soft stretch for light garments. 

When you transfer it with the heat press you will have the polymere backing that holds the inks, transfer with it onto the shirt. Unlike sublimination which actually turns to a gas when heated, and only transfers the ink.

The differences on shirts with each product is that with transfer paper, you can transfer on alot of different types of garments such as 100% cotton, 50% cotton/50% poly. With sublimination you can only transfer on light polyester garments as that is the only type of fiber the sub inks adhere to.

The pigment inks only work with the transfer paper, which is used to transfer to tshirts. You can also use transfer paper for things such as mousepads and tote bags. where as the sub inks only work with sublimination and poly garments, and hard substrates that are coated.


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## dixieexpress (Jul 26, 2008)

Yes you can print t-shirts with the pigment ink also mouse pads and totes.


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## dixieexpress (Jul 26, 2008)

sorry sunndayz
I didnt refresh the page before I typed


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## sunnydayz (Jun 22, 2007)

Haha tis ok  that happens to me all the time.


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## lindsayanng (Oct 3, 2008)

AWESOME.. so sinc ei have going to have TWO printers and one 15x15 press, i will be able to do the dye sub for the tiles and mugs and such, and use a different printer to print with the pigment inks on a different type of transfer paper, but use the same heat press.

THIS IS REALLY GOOD NEWS!! 

I wasnt sure if you could use a regular printer to print stuff that will be pressed on shirts and stuff.. WOO HOO this is pretty exciting. I have always wanted to design my own shirts, now i can have fun and play with it.. 

I'm still stuck with what TYPE method to go with for the dye sub.. CIS or refillable cartridge

The most issues i have read with the CIS is for the larger format printers because the ink has longer way to travel...


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## bornover (Apr 10, 2008)

Dye sublimation has some limitations you might need to know about. The first one is an industry limitation. Since dye sublimation is a patented process, there are some legalities that effect us regular folk. The main one being: you can only buy bulk sublimation ink if you have a large format printer. The printers you mention are not large format printers. You are required by ink suppliers to provide the make, model and serial number of your large format printer to be able to buy bulk sublimation ink. Otherwise, for small formate printers, you have to buy prefilled cartridges that are more expensive per liter.


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## dixieexpress (Jul 26, 2008)

Id start with cartridges and if things go well you can upgrade to the CIS


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## lindsayanng (Oct 3, 2008)

I have read that.. but look at the second link i posted.. it is CLEARLY a bulk system for a C88 - why would they sell bulk systems if they didnt sell the ink for them

Also, how long does the ink last?? I mean, does it dry up if it is not used on a daily basis


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## dim116 (Nov 27, 2006)

bornover said:


> Dye sublimation has some limitations you might need to know about. The first one is an industry limitation. Since dye sublimation is a patented process, there are some legalities that effect us regular folk. The main one being: you can only buy bulk sublimation ink if you have a large format printer. The printers you mention are not large format printers. You are required by ink suppliers to provide the make, model and serial number of your large format printer to be able to buy bulk sublimation ink. Otherwise, for small formate printers, you have to buy prefilled cartridges that are more expensive per liter.


This is not correct. I use a C88 with refillable carts & I buy bulk ink all the time here in Canada in several different size bottles. I just checked on the www.conde.com website & they also sell the refillable carts & the bottles of ink in several different sizes


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## lindsayanng (Oct 3, 2008)

thats what i was thinking of doing..Dim, do you mind telling me where you buy your stuff, or is it all from Conde?


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## bornover (Apr 10, 2008)

This is news to me since I was stopped from buying a small format system with bulk ink by Sawgrass. And everyone I talked to a few months ago told me the same thing. But I see on Conde's site they sell bags for small format printers. I am a little upset with the people I got my info from.


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## lindsayanng (Oct 3, 2008)

I understand what you are saying, BUT look at the second link that i posted.. that is a link to a CIS system for a C88. i wold assume that if that company sells a CIS system for a C88, then i wouldnt have issues buying ink from them to FILL that system.


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## charles95405 (Feb 1, 2007)

Just from being around this biz for several years, I would never, ever buy cis and ink from different sources. When you have a problem...and someday you will...each will blame the other. Problems are not a frequent occurring events but they do happen.


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## lindsayanng (Oct 3, 2008)

I agree with that.. but WHERE is a good place to purchase them from? this is what i am confused on.. that store i liked to (conde) sold the set AND the ink, but i also found some stuff through alpha, i just have no clue


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## charles95405 (Feb 1, 2007)

Conde is a bigger player...I think, I have had very good contacts with Conde, but have never purchased anything from alpha..


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## lindsayanng (Oct 3, 2008)

well, the other place that i have been emailing with was DYESUBINKS.COM

They have package deals where i can get the CIS package that comes WITH inks for a pretty good price. 

see the C88 Easy Flow Plus and tell me what you think abotu that:
Bulk ink system deals for inkjet sublimation


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## BigSexyJohn (May 22, 2008)

> BobbyLee:A printer with pigment inks you would print to transfer paper and then press it on. the c88 would work for it. Its basically for use with heat transfer paper. Also you can get them super cheap at the epson outlet and they come with the pigment ink cartidges. Here is a link for the outlet Clearance Epson Just Arrived - Epson Clearance Center - Epson America, Inc. . I think they have them for around $40 alot of the times there.


Thanks for pointing that out. I've been under the impression that I could use sublimation ink on cotton blend shirts. Thereby only needing one printer. But like Lindsay may end up with 2 printers!

The Epson Claria ink is good then?


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## BigSexyJohn (May 22, 2008)

Just been over to Epson Australia which is pretty crap compared to the U.S.A site, but the American site doesn't do delivery outside the 50 states! They got R290 factory seconds at Au$77 but the ink is way dearer than the U.S.A site! Try Au$99 the set! At least the R290 comes with Claria ink. So for that plus delivery I may as well grab one. Now all I need is transfer paper...


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## Cjoe Design (Jun 3, 2008)

I started out about 6 years ago with the c80 or c88 cartridge sublimation system. It was very reliable (but expensive ink per page) I upgraded to a couple 1280s with a bulk system wich dropped my cost per shirt drastically. After a few years I started to get more and more clogging issues. I now own the 4880 cartidge system. I have the advantage of both systems. I would never have forked out the dough years ago but now that I have a viable business, it is nice to just go to print something and not have to deal with any headaches.


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## lindsayanng (Oct 3, 2008)

So it seems that the overall consensus is to get the refillable cartidges this way i can buy bulk in for it, but still have the reliability of the cartridge.. That is what i was thinking to begin with.. Now, for the ink to fill the cartridges, can you buy bags? or bottles? or both?


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## Cjoe Design (Jun 3, 2008)

I have had both styles of systems. One of my 1280s had a bulk system that had a tank on the side that I filled the tanks whenever they got low. My other 1280 was basically the same thing except it was individual bags. It too worked fine. I did somewhat prefer the single tank with seperate compartments specially when it came to transporting or filling. If I was running low on just one or two colors I would buy the big 500ml bottles. If I was running out of a bunch of colors and I was strapped for cash, I went with the smaller 250 bottles.

I have also used almost all the different sublimation ink out there. I started out using Ro-tech, when my local supplier switched to Artanium during the whole lawsuit deal I switched over, and now I am using Sublijet in my 4880 because it saved me money on not buying a Rip. Every ink I have ever had has allways impressed even my toughest customers. I will say one thing, My 8yr old can run the software that comes with the Sublijet. He's made a few shirts and other stuff and has no problem choosing the right setup for the different substrates. This would be a definate plus if you have employees that will be helping and not as tuned in to the biz as you.


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## BigSexyJohn (May 22, 2008)

For the regular printing jobs, letters and receipts, I have been using ink supplied in 125ml bottles. The annoying part is removing the ink carts to refill and after a few fills they can get leaky. I myself was hoping to be past that and the associated magenta, blue or yellow stained fingers! But we gotta do what we gotta do!


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## dim116 (Nov 27, 2006)

BigSexyJohn said:


> For the regular printing jobs, letters and receipts, I have been using ink supplied in 125ml bottles. The annoying part is removing the ink carts to refill and after a few fills they can get leaky. I myself was hoping to be past that and the associated magenta, blue or yellow stained fingers! But we gotta do what we gotta do!


Why are you removing your cartridges for filling?
I fill mine right in the printer. By not moving the carts there is less chance of creating problems when replacing them in the printer. I have been doing it this way for years with absolutely no problems. I am using sublimation inks but you can do the same with regular inks too.


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## dim116 (Nov 27, 2006)

lindsayanng said:


> thats what i was thinking of doing..Dim, do you mind telling me where you buy your stuff, or is it all from Conde?


I get my supplies here in Canada so that won't work for you. I would buy the refillable carts, inks, profiles all from the same vendor such as conde or alpha. Some vendors sell their bulk ink in the bags and/or bottles depending on if it is artanium or sublijet.


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## BigSexyJohn (May 22, 2008)

Hi Larry, I was silly enough to follow the instruction sheet. How dumb is that! Know better now.


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## lindsayanng (Oct 3, 2008)

so bottle or bag doesnt matter, its just the different brands that sell them differently.. Either of them can be sealed back up and stored?


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## Brandon24 (Oct 30, 2008)

so when u buy a printer and im gunna buy the epson 1400 how do u transfer the ink thats in them to the dye sub ink is there a kit that comes with it, ive seen video and stuff of it all together but does it come with everything u need? and by chance anyone have a base range on how many shirts u get out of your ink before u needa refill just a vague idea so i can crunch some numbers


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## Cjoe Design (Jun 3, 2008)

There is no basic figure on that! If you do 1 photo shirt it could use more ink than a 2 dozen line art logo shirts. There is a couple of ink/inch charts you might take a look at. I remember DAGuide posting one once in a thread or two.


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## Brandon24 (Oct 30, 2008)

Cjoe Design said:


> There is no basic figure on that! If you do 1 photo shirt it could use more ink than a 2 dozen line art logo shirts. There is a couple of ink/inch charts you might take a look at. I remember DAGuide posting one once in a thread or two.



ok got ya i understand what your saying its just gunna depend on the density of the print but as far as line design were not using alot of ink. if u have a link to a chart that would be awesome ill search for it in case u dont thank you


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## BigSexyJohn (May 22, 2008)

Brandon24 said:


> so when u buy a printer and im gunna buy the epson 1400 how do u transfer the ink thats in them to the dye sub ink is there a kit that comes with it, ive seen video and stuff of it all together but does it come with everything u need? and by chance anyone have a base range on how many shirts u get out of your ink before u needa refill just a vague idea so i can crunch some numbers


The sublimation ink is only good on polyester. I thought it was good on 50/50 but it seems I was wrong! You weren't talking cotton shirts there where ya?


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## jge (Oct 7, 2008)

Carts vs Bulk ink.

Both have their plusses and minuses. 
Carts are better for people who don't do much sublimation, so they can remove the carts and put carts with std inks when they don't have sublimation work.
This will ensure the printer stays pretty much clog free.

The problem however is that carts don't work equally well on all printers. On the R1800, with sublimation inks, you get the sublimation inks leaking (this doesn't happen with dye-based or pigment inks though). On the R1400, you have to do a cleaning cycle before you print (again doesn't happen with dye inks).

Something to be careful of is refilling the cartridge while still in the printer, as any ink spillage will feed directly to the ribbon cable that connects to the head, and will ultimately blow the head electronics.

Bulk ink systems are better for people who do a lot of printing, and are essential on printers like the R1800.
Bulk ink systems give less problems than carts if used all the time (the o-rings on cartridges tend to deform after prolonged removal and re-insertion).


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## lindsayanng (Oct 3, 2008)

yea.. I think i am definitely going with re-fillable cartridges, since i will not be doing bulk loads of stuff.. It will just be enough to sustain our photography business without having to go out and get someone to do it for us, as i would be VERY expensive.


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## CUSTOM UK (Jun 28, 2008)

Most refillable cartridges allow you to refill them around 25-30 times, then the sealing rubber starts to wear. Epson recently won a legal case to stop people selling refillable cartridges, so if you are planning to buy, do it soon. Make sure they are fitted with an auto reset chip though.

Bulk systems are better suited to heavy ink usage, as most hold the capacity of several cartridges. They are great for dye based inks, but pigment inks can settle on the bottom of the tanks unless used on a frequent basis. Only downsides to bulk systems is that they can be a real pain to get primed for first time use and if you do get a leak, you can lose a *lot* of ink in one go.


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