# Guaranteed Top Ten Rankings in search engines or your money back!



## Xeon (Aug 11, 2007)

*
*DISCLAIMER: I AM IN NO WAY ASSOCIATED OR AFFILIATED WITH THE COMPANY MENTIONED IN THE BELOW POST.
* 
Hi all,

Ok, I received this newsletter from a reputable web newsletter which was advertising this SEO product.

Visit: ibusinesspromoter.com

Now, read the stuff on the website.
They're so confident that they say "Guaranteed top 10 rankings" or they'll refund your money.

Anyone tried such stuff before? I'm thinking of buying it cos' it's really too good to be true!

Imagine....I try for keywords like "funny t-shirts" and my website comes up within the top 10 results on Google!

Any advice, opinions, comments etc are highly welcomed!

Thanks!
Xeon


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## dt (Aug 12, 2007)

just tried one of their happy customer with vacation florida and i stop looking after 200 results ... strange!!!


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## darryld (Sep 20, 2007)

its very easy to get into the top 10 google results for anyone. this marketing hook is a very bold statement but is easy to achieve. every industry and the keywords associated with it are bid on and google/yahoo can acurately predict your position with the amount you say you want to bid. the more competitive the search words the more they will cost. so as long as you are willing to pay the going rate for top 10 ranking of your industry's key search words, you will be in top 10. so they really cant go wrong with this statement. they dont say every client they have is in the top 10, they are just saying they can get you there if you want to pay for it, or we will refund if we screwup.


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## daveM (Mar 29, 2008)

Xeon said:


> *
> *DISCLAIMER: I AM IN NO WAY ASSOCIATED OR AFFILIATED WITH THE COMPANY MENTIONED IN THE BELOW POST.
> *
> Hi all,
> ...



that's an outright lie. How can they 'guarantee' top results without knowing what search keywords you want to rank for? 

what if you wanted to be top 5 for "britney spears'? Theres no way in hades they could pull that off. "britney spears" is one of the top 5 searched phrases on google year after year. The top site for that phrase gets literally-- millions-- of daily hits from search engines. So I know their claim is already a very overblown statement w/o them asking what words you want to rank a site well for. 

Sure they might be able to pull it off for MUCH less competitive phrases, but to make a blanket statement that they gurantee a top 10 or 20 ranking is just wrong. It reeks of 'baiting' n a bad way. The only people in the world who can guarantee you top rankings that are the people who run each of the search engines--- and I doubt they are in the biz of making individual websites. certainly the folks making websites for a living cannot gurantee anthing to do with a search engines rankings or results unless they are working for the SE's themselves. 

To me, that has the distinct smell of a scam to get people to part with their money. Just like those old barkers at a fair claiming to sell a tonic that regrows hair -- GUARANTEED. Yeah, sure it is.

For example, if they were truly able to "gurantee top rankings" for all keywords, they would already be millionaires themselves -- many times over. Just by creating their own sites and being #1 for the most popular google seaches like "american idol", "britney spears", paris hilton", etc, etc. They would design those sites around using the google adwords campaign, and get paid by the click from google. 

So if that company is as good as they claim, they wouldn't have to lie to you and sell "seo designed websites" for a living, they would be cashing in on the easy money from their own top ranking sites. Those kinds of sites generate hundreds of thousands of dollars weekly in advertising money paid from google. make sense?

so their claim sends up instant red flags in my mind. I dont see their company anywhere in the top 30 for mosty of the SEo related keywords for their industry.

when I searched for "SEO design" or "seo rankings" in google, their company's website was nowhere near #1-#10? Not even in the top 50 before I stopped searching. Of course according to their claims, they can gurantee that, right? I guess the guarantee doesnt apply to themselves. If they can NOT do this for their own business, should you trust thenm to do it for your biz? Clearly not. You'd think they'd be talented enough to do it for their own keywords, right? 

So you have to ask yourself: why arent they in top 10 themselves? If they arent capable of promoting themselves the way they claim to do for you, then youre definitely looking at a scam of some sort. I didnt dig deep enough into it to find out or google what other webmasters think of their claims. But if you trot off to webmasterworld.com and search their site for "ibusinesspromoter.com", im sure they will already debunked the claims there in detail. 

To put look at that another way: would you have a guy design your tshirts, who is himself wearing an ugly tshirt design that promotes his own biz? I sure as hell wouldnt. But your sense of trusting a stranger may be greater than mine. ;o)~

Also, these so called 'internet marketing firms' that make such claims use what is called 'blackhat SEO' to get your site up in the rankings. What that means is they are knowingly cheating google by providing "doorwaypages" for google to see that human visitors don't. 

In otherwords, once google finds out that your site is doing things totally against it's terms of service, they WILL ban your site totally from their indexes. You will no longer exist at all in the Search engine. 

And trust me on this, your competitors will turn your site designed by them in to google asap, if they see your site "suddenly rising" into the top places where it never was before, and breaking the TOS. I turn in my cheating competitors every morning to all the major search engines, after I check the status of sites I have designed and SEOed. No one should be able to "cheat" google and profit from it. The ones that "magically" rise to the top from out of nowhere, are almost always violating the SE's TOS, and are simple to get banned by emailing the engines.


dave

here's a link for you to read up on:
"White hat versus black hat"section in this wiki: Search engine optimization - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## daveM (Mar 29, 2008)

dt said:


> just tried one of their happy customer with vacation florida and i stop looking after 200 results ... strange!!!


not strange at all. that site they listed as a "sample" of their seo skillz has probably already been banned from the google engine (or which ever one you searched on) after Google found out it was designed to "cheat the rankings system".

If I were a legit top ranking florida vaction site, and that website suddenly started outranking mine, I would investigate and turn them in if they were violating the search engines "TOS" ( terms of service)

That would be one less competitor I would have to sweat for a year or so.

d


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## daveM (Mar 29, 2008)

darryld said:


> its very easy to get into the top 10 google results for anyone. this marketing hook is a very bold statement but is easy to achieve.



do you have ANY idea how hard it is to be top 10 for some of google's most popular searches? Obviously not, if youre claiming it is "easy to acheive".




darryld said:


> every industry and the keywords associated with it are bid on and google/yahoo can acurately predict your position with the amount you say you want to bid. the more competitive the search words the more they will cost. so as long as you are willing to pay the going rate for top 10 ranking of your industry's key search words, you will be in top 10.


I think you might be confusing the "paid" advertising or "pay per click", with "natural search results". Two completely different animals --- not even related other than both happen through search engines. For example, in Google the "paid" adverts run down the right side of the results pages and are labled "sponsored links" above them. The 'organic' or 'natural' search results are on the left side. 

That firm in the OP is claiming to get you in the top ten without paying google, MSN, Yahoo, etc, advertising money. That's a totally different ballgame from the "paid" placement that youre referring to.



darryld said:


> so they really cant go wrong with this statement. they dont say every client they have is in the top 10, they are just saying they can get you there if you want to pay for it, or we will refund if we screwup.


no. that doesnt apply to this company's claims, and what xeon is asking about. Again, I think youre confusing "paid placement" adverts with the "natural (or organic) search engine results" and the SEO design needed for a website to acheive top 10 natural results.

dave


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## daveM (Mar 29, 2008)

ok, I spent 15 minutes trolling webmasterworld.com forums (basically your 1 stop shop for most things related to SEo & truth)

here's some threads from that board relating to "internet business promoter" , or IBP, or ibusinesspromoter.com.

You can paw through the good and bad of it all. 


internet business promoter - Google Search


I stand by my assertion/post that any company claiming to make you "top 10" w/o first asking you "what keywords are you trying to rank in the top 10 for", is full of shiznit and a scam of some sort.

d


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## plan b (Feb 21, 2007)

These guy's maybe talking about local search, in that case with the correct longtail keywords it can be done pretty easily.


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## plan b (Feb 21, 2007)

oops let me clarify,, a local will not get you a pr.


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## darryld (Sep 20, 2007)

DaveM

sorry i didnt see anything from the original post or the link that was suggesting they were only talking about organic links.

As I said in my post this is a marketing hook but is achievable if you are prepared to pay for it. 

I don’t know why you think im confusing paid searches and organic, I said straight out in my post im talking about bidding and paying for search words which is easy to do and you will get results if you are prepared to pay for it.

I think your confusion (and your rant) comes from your abundance of assumptions


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## gothicaleigh (Jun 16, 2007)

Hopefully they don't have more than 10 clients who want the same word or phrase. 


My business comes up in the top 10 when you type in it's name. 

My username comes up in the top 10 (and every result after it) when you type in it's name. 

I'm a marketing genius!


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## daveM (Mar 29, 2008)

darryld said:


> DaveM
> 
> sorry i didnt see anything from the original post or the link that was suggesting they were only talking about organic links.


of course organic links is what we are talking about --- that is what SEO is. that is what the company xeon inquired about does for a living -- sell SEO software. Its not "affiliate" or "pay per click" software, it's seo software. So yes, 'organic seo' IS indeedy-do the topic of this thread.




darryld said:


> As I said in my post this is a marketing hook but is achievable if you are prepared to pay for it.



huh? by definition, you can't ever "pay" for organic search engine rankings. They are determined by google''s ranking forumla alone (or, of course, the other SE's formulas) So you're still confused. Here's a definition of it for ya: Organic search - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

(please note the VERY first sentence before you reply with more of your "prepare to pay", comments.)

Sure you can "pay" a company to design your site and build in SEO for it. Or someone can "bid" on a price to build your site w/ seo for you, BUT youre still at the mercy of google and it's ranking formula for the actual results you get after it's built. There's no "paying for keywords" involved as you keep insisting. That's why they are called organic search results, get it? 

Now if you want to take this thread off topic and into Affiliates, pay per click, overture, etc, and bidding for keyword rates, then yes you are correct, that can be done with good results....

....but the company in the OP's link doesnt have a thing to do with pay per click or bidding keywords. period. 



darryld said:


> I don’t know why you think im confusing paid searches and organic,


because you are. note your next sentence below. The OP didnt ask about "pay per click" or "bidding" options, he was asking specifically about IBP seo software and the odds of their claim being true.



darryld said:


> I said straight out in my post im talking about bidding and paying for search words which is easy to do and you will get results if you are prepared to pay for it.
> 
> I think your confusion (and your rant) comes from your abundance of assumptions


LOL. my confusion? my assumption? funny guy. Basically, even in your last post you are STILL "talking about bidding and paying for search words" and insisting that is somehow realated to this thread on seo. The topic is SEO and you jump in and spout about about "pay per click" or "bidding on keywords". So maybe youre not confused, just way off topic?????

If you can show me anywhere on the site xeon posted where there is a referrence to "pay per click" or "pay per keyword" or "bidding for keywords", as you are insisting, then I will offer you my sincere apologies. 

I wont be holding my breath waiting for you to find it. ;o)~

Also, Lemme know if you see the words "pay for keywords" or "bid for keywords" anywhere in the definition of SEO on wiki:
Search engine optimization - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If you can't find a referrence in that article, then you have no reason to have brought up the subject of "bidding" or "paying" for keywords as you did. It's confusing. It has nothing to do w/SEO. Xeon never asked about "pay per click" or bidding.

youre just making the thread confusing to seo newbs trying to follow along. 


d


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## Unik Ink (Nov 21, 2006)

It's a scam. I turned my SEO company that guaranteed results like that into the BBB. We're in a dispute that may end up in a lawsuit. If it sounds too good to be true, it is.


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## darryld (Sep 20, 2007)

do you rip into everyone like that because i dont think thats what this forum is for. to make it clear again i amd talking about bidding paying for keywords to increase ranking, sorry that this bothers you. you are a ranting raging lunitic and i dont appreciated your comments at all.


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## Rodney (Nov 3, 2004)

Dave, please keep things professional without attacking other members 

It IS possible for a company to promote SEO service and STILL be actually providing PPC services to their client.

That is obviously what Darryl is talking about.

It may not be the ethical thing to do, but it's not something that is unheard of. 

Some companies have been known to sell SEO services and actually be paying for PPC on those keywords hoping that their clients won't know that when they are now showing up in the top 3, that they are actually paying for it. And no, they wont' mention PPC on their website...only SEO.

I'm not saying that this is what the company the original poster linked to does, I'm just saying that it is withing the realm of possibility, which is probably why it was brought up in this thread.

See this thread on webmasterworld that references that phenomenon: SEO company is soliciting me... what should i do?

There is no need for the type of rude/flaming posts in this forum. It's not what these forums are about.


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## Xeon (Aug 11, 2007)

Ok, ok, cool down, guys! I must thank everyone for the replies here cos' I got carried away and almost wanted to spend several hundred dollars on that, and the yearly updates cost additional (btw, big boys like Canon, Simens etc, use their software too, according to their Clients and testimonials page).

Thanks to DaveM for the long long post as well. 

What stopped me from buying it was:

1) I tested one of their "satisfied clients" website on Google and no matter what keywords I use (based on the keywords in the client's webpage), it doesn't come up in any results

2) I read their testimonials page and a lot of SEO companies seem to be using this software......so I was thinking to myself......if this software is that good and the SEO companies are using it too, then I'm still back to square one cos' I'll be competing against those guys with the same tool, but I've less expertise. 

Only thing is that I'm intrigued how they can make such a powerful and daring guarantee, though. I've never seen anyone made such claims before.


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## Rodney (Nov 3, 2004)

SEO isn't something you have to pay for, Xeon 

I gave you some good steps to take in the other thread about SEO. It may take a while, but if you follow those steps, you should be on your way to ranking better for the terms you want.


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## daveM (Mar 29, 2008)

Rodney said:


> Dave, please keep things professional without attacking other members


Ill tell you what. I'll totally apologize-- and cheerfully, too-- to darryld if he can explain and support a couple statements he made:

1. How PPC (paying for keywords) increases the organic search rankings for any site. Of course, citations or links to respected docs on the web that support it. IOW, just because he sez so, don't make it true. 

2. _"its very easy to get into the top 10 google results for anyone."_ LOL. If it was we'd all be millionaires already after reading a $15 "dummies" book on how to do it.

I think both those statements are pretty much BS and completely false. Both just further confuse the waters about SEO. Those types of statements are part and parcel of the reason most lay folks, like xeon for example, are baffled by SEO. There is so much wrong, outdated, and misleading information being continually pumped out by peops who really don't know what they are talking about.



Rodney said:


> It IS possible for a company to promote SEO service and STILL be actually providing PPC services to their client.
> 
> That is obviously what Darryl is talking about.
> 
> It may not be the ethical thing to do, but it's not something that is unheard of.


right. But the OP, xeon, was asking about a company that sells DIY software to roll your own SEO. Here's the first line on their home page if he bothered to read it at all:
*iBusinessPromoter (IBP) is a multi-award winning website promotion software tool. IBP helps you get high search engine rankings:*

They don't do the work for you, hence there is zero chance of hidden PPC purchases. In fact nowhere on their site is a mention of PPC. So that whole line of thought is moot, OT, and just plain confusing to folks. It's a non-sequitor.




Rodney said:


> Some companies have been known to sell SEO services and actually be paying for PPC on those keywords hoping that their clients won't know that when they are now showing up in the top 3....


ah. now we're at the crux of my objections. 

When you say "showing up in top 3", are you talking about top 3 in the "sponsored links listings" section, or top 3 in the "organic listings" section? Two separate and easy to distinguish listings. Buying your way to the 1st link in the "sponsored" section is NOT considered part of the "rankings" aka the organic results, aka serps. 

Basically, are you two calling the "sponsored links" listings, "rankings", by mistake? 

You both insist that somehow PPC "gets you into top organic rankings". I fail to see how a PPC campaign affects the organic listings. There is absolutely no direct or scientific evidence to support that -- unless you and he can cite some docs to back up your claims. 

If you are a webmasterworld forum reader, you'd know that anecdotal evidence-- no proof, just many reports-- is that after starting a PPC campaign, many found their organic search results actually lower for their PPC keywords.

Here's a link to support my point that PPC does NOT affect rankings ( and I consider that site to be very reliable source of seo info):
Can PPC Listings Affect Organic Rankings? - Search Engine Watch

and here's a whole parade of google links about the 'PPC' relationship to 'organic rank'.:
PPC increase organic rankings - Google Search



Rodney said:


> There is no need for the type of rude/flaming posts in this forum. It's not what these forums are about.


Fair enough. But let's resolve the issues Ive noted above. If Im wrong, as mentioned, I will duely apologize to everyone involved and never be mean again. 

However, having followed and/or particpated in the whitehat seo game for over 10 years, I have a pretty decent idea that some of the statements made were pretty misleading, or at the very least way off the mark.

dave


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## Rodney (Nov 3, 2004)

> Basically, are you two calling the "sponsored links" listings, "rankings", by mistake?
> 
> You both insist that somehow PPC "gets you into top organic rankings"


I never insisted that at all.

The point I was trying to make was that SOME companies will CALL the sponsored results the "organic" results to customers that don't know better.

So they will tell the client that their "rankings" are in the top 3 even though they PAID for the top 3 via sponsored keyword ads. Does that make sense?


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## Rodney (Nov 3, 2004)

> *iBusinessPromoter (IBP) is a multi-award winning website promotion software tool. IBP helps you get high search engine rankings:*
> 
> They don't do the work for you, hence there is zero chance of hidden PPC purchases. In fact nowhere on their site is a mention of PPC. So that whole line of thought is moot, OT, and just plain confusing to folks. It's a non-sequitor.


The part you may be missing here is that the software gives you instructions on what to do get the top rankings.

So it is possible that the software will tell you "you need to login to adwords to bid to get the top rankings for that position". It's possible.

This is from their website:


> Follow the instructions and benefit from top 10 search engine rankings on Google & Yahoo! IBP tells you in plain English and in great detail what you have to do to get a top 10 ranking for your specific keyword in the search engine you've chosen.


Since we don't know exactly what the software does, it is *possible* that they are using a marketing hook to confuse newer website owners into thinking that you have to "pay" to get top rankings by using adwords or yahoo search marketing. 

That's why PPC was brought up. Not to confuse anyone, just to explain what some of the "gotchas" might be in that type of overhyped pitch.


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