# are sawgrass the ink police?



## 321go (Aug 13, 2011)

This week i made a listing on ebay re-selling the dye sub inks that i purchased last week as im going back to jpss inkjet transfers. I knew about sawgrass but thought they were just an ink manufacturer. My listsing was for 90ml yellow, 90ml red, 90ml blue and 180ml black for just £60. a day later i receieved an ebay message from sawgrass stating that i was breaking their licence or something, and that i cannot sell these inks?!?! and they were giving me 12 hours to take down the listing or they would be getting ebay to bend me over and give me a spanking!

I couldnt believe it! can sawgrass really stop me from selling these inks?

I called their bluff a bit and said "just because it doesnt say they are sawgrass inks, doesnt mean they arnt". they called my bluff back. I took down the listing to save hassle, but i need the money and have these inks that i dont know what to do with. 

They really pissed me off, surely they have no right to dictate what i do with my own ink? its not theirs afterall


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## mn shutterbug (Mar 19, 2009)

Egads, they're everywhere. That explains why their ink is so expensive. They probably pay a whole battalion of private d i c k s just for this purpose. However, if you bought those inks legally, I don't see how they could keep you from reselling them. It doesn't make sense to me.


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## sben763 (May 17, 2009)

mn shutterbug said:


> Egads, they're everywhere. That explains why their ink is so expensive. They probably pay a whole battalion of private ***** just for this purpose. However, if you bought those inks legally, I don't see how they could keep you from reselling them. It doesn't make sense to me.


My guess is they are not legit inks.


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## mn shutterbug (Mar 19, 2009)

sben763 said:


> My guess is they are not legit inks.


That makes sense, but if he's only trying to get rid of his private supply, it shouldn't be an issue. It's not as if he's in the business of selling the ink.


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## sben763 (May 17, 2009)

mn shutterbug said:


> That makes sense, but if he's only trying to get rid of his private supply, it shouldn't be an issue. It's not as if he's in the business of selling the ink.


I'll agree but an licensed ink is considered a threat to sawgrass. I don't agree with sawgrass tactics. I hate sawgrass bought their inks used 3-5 months and they went bad. Still in date basically told me to piss up a rope. That it was me not the inks. I no longer use sawgrass found my own supplier and the last 200ml was 2 years old and still works flawlessly
I have $750 worth of sawgrass ink of course now old that is worthless

He can simply sell locally


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## mn shutterbug (Mar 19, 2009)

sben763 said:


> He can simply sell locally


What if he lives in a town of 2000 people?


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## 321go (Aug 13, 2011)

I live in the very south east of the UK, there aint nobody round here doing dye sub printing lol. im just gonna put them back on ebay i think, if they wanna grass me up to ebay then so be it. ill just make another account, and another, and another. I am one persistant cockroach that can never be squashed.

I even asked sawgrass at the end of my last message if they wanted to purchase them from me. they didnt reply


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## sben763 (May 17, 2009)

Are they sawgrass inks? If so there is no problem selling them on eBay. If they aren't I would tread lightly but do as you wish. Good luck


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## 321go (Aug 13, 2011)

sben763 said:


> Are they sawgrass inks? If so there is no problem selling them on eBay. If they aren't I would tread lightly but do as you wish. Good luck


no they arnt sawgrass, i ordered them from hong kong, apparantly these ones are just as good as sawgrass ink, so i cut my costs by about 5000% and bought these lol.


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## Louie2010 (Feb 26, 2010)

Couldn't you just list it as miscellaneous sublimation supplies and not use the brand name. Maybe package it together with paper or anything else you have, so that is is kind of a grab bag of supplies and not directly their product brand.

Miscellaneous sublimation supplies 

**Package of Yellow, blue, red and black ink, two reams of paper, etc.

(plus anything else you might want to get rid of)


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## 321go (Aug 13, 2011)

i didnt list them as sawgrass though, i just listed as "dye sub ink". thats why i dont understand their problem. i dont think bagging it with paper will make any difference, by the looks of it they trawl through ebay and other sites, even the forums iv discovered. Wouldnt be suprised if they are reading this and taking notes.


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## Louie2010 (Feb 26, 2010)

That is strange. I just did quick search on e-bay and there a others selling plenty of different brand inks. Maybe if you did list the brand name of what you have they couldn't say anything. Or charge a lot for some paper, and give the ink away for free with it.


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## mn shutterbug (Mar 19, 2009)

You go, man. I think the worst that can happen is Ebay kicking you out.


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## mn shutterbug (Mar 19, 2009)

Louie2010 said:


> Or charge a lot for some paper, and give the ink away for free with it.


That is an excellent suggestion.


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## sharlynn (Oct 12, 2009)

Must be nearly time for their patient to expire, maybe they realise that when it does, they will too. 
Don't know anyone who wants to buy their overpriced product!


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## Riderz Ready (Sep 18, 2008)

sharlynn said:


> Must be nearly time for their patient to expire, maybe they realise that when it does, they will too.
> Don't know anyone who wants to buy their overpriced product!


I believe it is only a couple years off. I do not mind products that may be a little high on cost if the cost is related to the product quality. Beaver Tacky paper is an example. They have a corner on that market but the product is top notch. Desktop Sawgrass ink is not only expensive but old technology, poor colors and kills printers. 

I am guessing there is a separate patent on Ricoh ink considering the fact that Sawgrass and all of their Cartel members push it so heavily even though there have been significant issues reported with the Ricoh ink for a year now.


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## Sun Turtle (Sep 2, 2010)

We've been looking into expanding with Sawgrass Inks. What do you suggest?


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## PositiveDave (Dec 1, 2008)

You have every right to sell your spare ink, Sawgrass will object if you sell them as their ink or give the impression of such.
If you are worried, set up a new ebay account that is throw-away and explain to Sawgrass the best orifice to insert said inks


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## 321go (Aug 13, 2011)

Sun Turtle said:


> We've been looking into expanding with Sawgrass Inks. What do you suggest?


 
I suggest staying away. There are better, cheaper inks that dont clog your printer. sawgrass is a rip off company


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## sben763 (May 17, 2009)

Sun Turtle said:


> We've been looking into expanding with Sawgrass Inks. What do you suggest?


I'd say run


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## 321go (Aug 13, 2011)

iv just posted the listing again, with a few modifications, "contact me for details" being the main one lol.


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## 321go (Aug 13, 2011)

Ok so i relisted the inks, and after 12 hours this is what i got:

Thank you for your recent listing on eBay. The rights owner or an agent authorized to act on behalf of the rights owner, Sawgrass Systems, Inc. - Tropical Graphics - TG Europe, notified eBay that this listing breaches intellectual property rights. When eBay receives a report of this type of breach, we remove the listing to comply with the law. 
Questions about the specific violation should be addressed to Sawgrass Systems, Inc. - Tropical Graphics - TG Europe 
You can send an email to: ip[USER=142440]@saw[/USER]grasseurope.com

For more information on how eBay protects Intellectual Property, please visit the following Help page: 

http://pages.ebay.co.uk/help/tp/programs-vero-ov.html 

Unfortunately, the following item(s) breached one or more of our policies and had to be removed from the site. 

280791437249 - Dye Sublimation inks 


Any associated fees have been credited to your account and any bidders on this item have been notified.


Why did we remove your listing?



You may not list items on eBay that infringe the patent rights of an individual or company. Such listings are both unlawful and against eBay policy.

The rights owner for the item you listed sent us a signed legal statement telling us that your item infringed their copyright, trademark or other rights. We were therefore legally obliged to remove the listing.

If you have any questions about the removal of your listing please contact the rights owners directly.

A patent is a type of intellectual property right that gives a person the sole rights to make use of an invention. The item you are posting may use this invention without their permission, thereby infringing the person's intellectual property rights.

If you need help with this policy, please follow this link:

http://contact.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ContactUsNextGen&Format=1&query=629&domain=MAC&from=003_VeRO_Patent

For more information on Patent Violation - Unauthorised Item copy this link into a new browser window:

http://pages.ebay.co.uk/vero/index.html


We do this in order to keep the site safe for all members, and sometimes this means removing certain listings. 



The next time you sell, you may be asked to take the tutorial, if it's required. Once you've completed it successfully, please review your alerts and messages in My eBay for any other possible concerns. If there are no other issues, you should be able to sell again.

Although there may be similar items currently listed on eBay, please be assured that your listings have not been targeted in any way. We review all listings that are reported to us by eBay members and participants in the VeRO (Verified Rights Owner) Programme, and we rely on these reports to help keep eBay a safe and reputable place to buy and sell. 

GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR


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## PhilDx (Feb 13, 2010)

That's one of the most ridiculous overreactions I've ever heard of. I've been a little ticked at Sawgrass until now, that just pushed me over the edge. My next printer will absolutely NOT require anything that SG sells.


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## 321go (Aug 13, 2011)

So guess whats happening tomorrow... thats right, they are going right back on ebay


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## royster13 (Aug 14, 2007)

Your listing will never stay on there long enough to make a sale....


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## akar (Jul 1, 2011)

It's possible that the problem is calling them "dye-sub" inks since sawgrass has control over the term "dye sublimation". Sell them as high temp inks instead and list them under heat pressing supplies. Good luck.


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## Imme (Oct 22, 2011)

I used to search Ebay for "heat transfer ink". Sawgrass can't tell if its for sublimation or heat transfer papers. But the price difference is usually enough to make it obvious to a buyer.


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## 321go (Aug 13, 2011)

thanks guys ill try that. What if i were to say in the listing "similar to dye sub inks"?? do you think they can still


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## colorondemand (Jan 21, 2007)

Several years ago I bought a pretty nice dye sub system. Total investment was roughly $1,000.00. I bought another $1000.00 worth of "trinkets" to sublimate and sell. 

Bear mind, I had a retail location and decent traffic. After a number of low
Margin sales I realized the only one getting rich here was Sawgrass.

As I understand, they did not invent the ink, they simply have the exclusive rights to sell it. I am amazed how much they sell something that costs so little to manufacture.

I am sure there are a few end-users who are making a little money off the trinkets imprinted with these inks, but they are few and far between, while Sawgrass cleans up.

Sawgrass promotes a pie-in-the-sky business model and I would love to see someone mount a class-action lawsuit against them.


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## PositiveDave (Dec 1, 2008)

Just call them sublimation inks for promotional items...


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

akar said:


> It's possible that the problem is calling them "dye-sub" inks since sawgrass has control over the term "dye sublimation". Sell them as high temp inks instead and list them under heat pressing supplies. Good luck.


Sawgrass has a patent that is for a _specific_ formulation of inkjet sublimation inks. A patent such as the one Sawgrass has for their inks ('907) is for a _physical_ product and they "tie" a process of using that physical product into the patent as an independent claim.

For the term "dye sublimation" it is a phrase, and not of physical substance. Although some phrases can be copyrighted or trademarked, that specific phrase is in the public domain. Sawgrass does have trademark rights to "Sublijet IQ", "Artainium" and those trademarks are related to "dye sublimation".

The term "Dye sublimation" is used by many other companies, and is not something Sawgrass can control.

Examples are 

Laser dye sublimation, offset printer dye sublimation, even printers ..

Sony Electronics News and Information

*"LAS VEGAS (PMA Booth # F-171), March 2, 2009* - Sony is announcing a new professional dye-sublimation printer, model UP-DR80, providing event photographers, portrait studios and retailers a reliable solution for producing digital photo prints."

Not to parse your language but there is a lot of confusion over patents, copyright, and trademark.

General Information Concerning Patents


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## akar (Jul 1, 2011)

That makes sense, Mike, yet sawgrass seems to be controlling the term anyway, by threatening ordinary people who use it. They would be challenged, however, to threaten Sony. Why do you think they're giving this guy such a hard time and how can he sell his stuff without suffering their harassment? Any ideas why they're picking on him?


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## iainlondon (May 11, 2010)

Well I am totally P---e# Off I Print Mugs so my "Ink" goes a long way and I purchase through Cobrainks who as we all know,no longer sell "High Temp" Inks I am not in any immediate danger of running out,but need an alternate supply (I am calling Richard In an Hour) does anyone have any recommended suppliers and are they compatible with my existing Cobraink system(Epson 110 Workforce with CIS) Please feel free to Contact me Privately with any Info.........


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

akar said:


> That makes sense, Mike, yet sawgrass seems to be controlling the term anyway, by threatening ordinary people who use it. They would be challenged, however, to threaten Sony. Why do you think they're giving this guy such a hard time and how can he sell his stuff without suffering their harassment? Any ideas why they're picking on him?


They are picking on him due to their patent. Ebay in the US appears to not be allowing SG to kick people off of auctions as sub inks have been selling there for a bit of time now. Don't know why Ebay is not letting SG challenge US auctions, but it's good they are not.

SG does not own the term "dye sublimation" though, nor do they have any legal rights to that language.

In 3 more years their patent expires.


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## royster13 (Aug 14, 2007)

When I last looked, I could not find any "non" Sawgrass inks being sold on Ebay as sublimation inks....


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## veedub3 (Mar 29, 2007)

royster13 said:


> When I last looked, I could not find any "non" Sawgrass inks being sold on Ebay as sublimation inks....


Look Here

I guess they have gotten creative with it.


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## royster13 (Aug 14, 2007)

That listing is not for ink.....


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

royster13 said:


> When I last looked, I could not find any "non" Sawgrass inks being sold on Ebay as sublimation inks....


 
4000ml Bulk Dye Sublimation Ink CMYK | eBay

4 PCS Sublimation Ink for Heat transfer from Italy | eBay

There is a guy in Chicago also been posting there for years, has his own brand, lpInks or something like that.


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## royster13 (Aug 14, 2007)

When I looked through the feedback I could not actually find any sales of ink....I can only speculate that the listings were shut down before any sales were actually made....


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

LGPINKS is the vendor, check his feedback he sells a lot of sub ink on ebay, currently he has no auctions but rest assurred he'll have something up soon. 

eBay Feedback Profile for lgpinks


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

royster13 said:


> When I looked through the feedback I could not actually find any sales of ink....I can only speculate that the listings were shut down before any sales were actually made....


No one is getting shut down here in the US.

Check out LKGPINKS feedback

Those auctions are valid now.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

royster13 said:


> When I looked through the feedback I could not actually find any sales of ink....I can only speculate that the listings were shut down before any sales were actually made....


 
eBay Feedback Profile for lgpinks

*Galaxy*







AWESOME EBAYER- FAST SHIPPING- GREAT PRODUCT_ THANKS SO MUCH!Buyer: *Member id *tennesseetagman ( *Feedback Score Of* 608







) 
*Nov-20-11 18:38* Sublimation Ink set of 4 colors 4oz ea. Ep. C88: ICC Profile Available (#260871378057)US $134.99View Item* Sublimation Ink set of 4 colors 4oz ea. Ep. C88: ICC Profile Available*


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## royster13 (Aug 14, 2007)

1 guy selling 2 orders in a month...No "active" listings....I guess we will each have to draw our own conclusions...My opinion is that he is getting shut down more often that you think.....


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

royster13 said:


> When I looked through the feedback I could not actually find any sales of ink....I can only speculate that the listings were shut down before any sales were actually made....


???

If they were shut down then they can lose their Ebay acct. if they keep relisting banned material.

Sorry but your specualtion is incorrect.

With all due respect, sublimation inks have been selling openly on Ebay for several years now. FACT

Nothing personal


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## veedub3 (Mar 29, 2007)

royster13 said:


> That listing is not for ink.....


Read the description. The title does not say Sublimation ink but he states it in the description.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

royster13 said:


> 1 guy selling 2 orders in a month...No "active" listings....I guess we will each have to draw our own conclusions...My opinion is that he is getting shut down more often that you think.....


 
You can't continue to sell something on ebay that has been pulled by ebay. You will lose your acct. FACT not speculation or opinion.


If you looked further thru his feedback you would see he has been selling sublimation inks on ebay for over 1 year. FACT not speculation or opinion.

Those auctions were successful and not lifted by Ebay FACT not speculation or opinion.










Great seller...Just as advertised A+++++Buyer: *Member id *t.j.staples ( *Feedback Score Of* 23







) 
*Jul-26-10 15:59* Sublimation Ink Set of 4 colors 1oz each (100 ml) Total (#250667784172)US $32.99







Super fast shipping and great service!Thank you...A+++Buyer: *Member id *jeannebeans9 ( *Feedback Score Of* 88







) 
*Jul-25-10 21:16* Sublimation Ink: Set of 4 color 4oz each (400 ml) Total (#250667367442)US $99.99


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## royster13 (Aug 14, 2007)

I am sure a "few" listings sneak by.....But I am still of the opinion that far more get shut down before sales get made...


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## shirts456 (Mar 30, 2011)

The ink game is almost over. Next year we will see big changes.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

royster13 said:


> I am sure a "few" listings sneak by.....But I am still of the opinion that far more get shut down before sales get made...


If SG had those inks shut down they would stay shut down. Once you are lifted you can't keep posting the same thing. Good luck with that.

Your lost your argument on "I have never seen any non SG sublimation inks on ebay" so now it is "a few get through". Show me facts, not speculation.

FACT The party in question has a top seller rating on Ebay, he is not getting his auctions lifted. He cannot continue to sell on Ebay if he was.

Why did eBay remove my listing?

" 
*Can I relist my item?*

Even if you think your listing shouldn't have been removed, don't relist it without first finding out why it was removed. *Relisting an item that has been removed could result in suspension from eBay*. You could also be subject to legal action in some cases. For this reason, the *Relist* option is not available for listings that were removed by eBay.
Also, if your item was removed at the request of a rights owner, please contact them before relisting the item. To contact the rights owner, use the email address that was included in the email we sent you.
If we agree that your item was removed in error, you can relist it. Unfortunately, you'll have to recreate the listing from scratch."


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## royster13 (Aug 14, 2007)

Do not "twist" my words.....I said "When I last looked, I could not find any "non" Sawgrass inks being sold on Ebay as sublimation inks...." Obviously today that is not correct because there is 1 very recent listing....

Yes folks are selling sublimation inks on Ebay but I am still of the opinion it is very few sales.....


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

royster13 said:


> Do not "twist" my words.....I said "When I last looked, I could not find any "non" Sawgrass inks being sold on Ebay as sublimation inks...." Obviously today that is not correct because there is 1 very recent listing....
> 
> Yes folks are selling sublimation inks on Ebay but I am still of the opinion it is very few sales.....


OK the "last time you looked" is what you stated, I stand corrected. 

I'm on Ebay at least 3 or 4 times a week and I see sublimation inks sold openly and frequently. And there are 2 current and open listings, not 1 as you state, and those vendors have ebay stores.

But now you keep adapting your argument further, 

"I am sure a "few" listings sneak by.....But I am still of the opinion that far more get shut down before sales get made..."

is now a 

"but I am still of the opinion it is very few sales....."

So not to be accused of twisting your own words you left out the "get shut down" part.

Most likely "few sales" is correct. I wouldn't buy Chinese inks on Ebay, and maybe most wouldn't either, so we could agree on "few sales". But your argument keeps changing, there is no indication over the last couple of years that SG is shutting down those sales, or any one is "sneaking by" when they have a sales record going back a year and a half.

So we can let it stand at "few sales", SG still dominates the US market.


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## royster13 (Aug 14, 2007)

If you are showing 2 listings, I can not see the 2nd one from Canada...

I can see the 1 listing from vegassupplystore and it appears to be 1 lot of ink that expired in 2007...This seller does not appear to sell sublimation ink on a regular basis..No listings in their store and no sales that show in their recent feedback...

Obviously I have no proof Sawgrass is shutting down sales...But what other reason is there to explain why listings for sublimation inks are scarce?...As far as I can tell the lpginks last listing was Oct 12 11...


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

royster13 said:


> If you are showing 2 listings, I can not see the 2nd one from Canada...
> 
> I can see the 1 listing from vegassupplystore and it appears to be 1 lot of ink that expired in 2007...This seller does not appear to sell sublimation ink on a regular basis..No listings in their store and no sales that show in their recent feedback...
> 
> Obviously I have no proof Sawgrass is shutting down sales...But what other reason is there to explain why listings for sublimation inks are scarce?...As far as I can tell the lpginks last listing was Oct 12 11...


*Galaxy*







AWESOME EBAYER- FAST SHIPPING- GREAT PRODUCT_ THANKS SO MUCH!Buyer: *Member id *tennesseetagman ( *Feedback Score Of* 608







) 
*Nov-20-11 18:38* Sublimation Ink set of 4 colors 4oz ea. Ep. C88: ICC Profile Available (#260871378057)US $134.99View Item* Sublimation Ink set of 4 colors 4oz ea. Ep. C88: ICC Profile Available*

Nov 20 was the last time the seller had his inks up AND someone left feedback, and he has been having auctions over the year and a half selling non SG inks. He had inks there last week and perhaps you haven't considered that ...

1. He may not sell everytime he posts an auction.

2. Not everyone leaves feedback, so just because you don't see something from last week does not mean he didn't have an auction and sold. In fact he did have an auction last week ... _I saw it_. If you would like the next time he posts I will update here?

The other link is valid and the auction is current, sorry that you can't see it but just because you can't see it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I click the link and it comes up in my browser, I'm in the US.

Also, the expired inks are inmaterial to our discussion. The facts remains that non SG inks are being sold openly on ebay and have been for some time. Just perhaps that seller is not selling ongoing, but that fact is he is selling non SG inks on Ebay. 

Whether there are few sales or not is a different matter.

The listings for lpgInks are not scarce, they occur often. I see them all the time.


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## Riderz Ready (Sep 18, 2008)

royster13 said:


> If you are showing 2 listings, I can not see the 2nd one from Canada...
> 
> I can see the 1 listing from vegassupplystore and it appears to be 1 lot of ink that expired in 2007...This seller does not appear to sell sublimation ink on a regular basis..No listings in their store and no sales that show in their recent feedback...
> 
> Obviously I have no proof Sawgrass is shutting down sales...But what other reason is there to explain why listings for sublimation inks are scarce?...As far as I can tell the lpginks last listing was Oct 12 11...


Of course Sawgrass is in fact the ink police and of course they shut people down everyday. There is no question about it. Surely, just like everything in life, one can find the exception to the rule.

If Sawgrass did not have the ability to shut down sales of dye sublimation ink there would be a dozens of people buying liters, repackaging into smaller bottles, selling them at three times what they paid for and making some good money - I would be one of them. Not only do you have Sawgrass as the ink police you also have all their deputies (distributors) policing as well. They cannot afford to have people selling dye sub ink to the desktop market either.

Bottom line real world Sawgrass controls 99%+ of the desktop market.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

Riderz Ready said:


> Of course Sawgrass is in fact the ink police and of course they shut people down everyday. There is no question about it. Surely, just like everything in life, one can find the exception to the rule.
> 
> If Sawgrass did not have the ability to shut down sales of dye sublimation ink there would be a dozens of people buying liters, repackaging into smaller bottles, selling them at three times what they paid for and making some good money - I would be one of them. Not only do you have Sawgrass as the ink police you also have all their deputies (distributors) policing as well. They cannot afford to have people selling dye sub ink to the desktop market either.
> 
> Bottom line real world Sawgrass controls 99%+ of the desktop market.


Actually, exactly what you state is going on at Ebay right now with Artanium inks. SG cannot claim copyright infridgment for those "repack" items. Not dozens of vendors but a couple.

I won't post how it works for obvious reasons but I know it is being done. You could be in the ink business if you knew how.


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## royster13 (Aug 14, 2007)

Mike please explain what you think is going on on Ebay now...


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

Riderz Ready said:


> Of course Sawgrass is in fact the ink police and of course they shut people down everyday. There is no question about it. Surely, just like everything in life, one can find the exception to the rule.
> 
> If Sawgrass did not have the ability to shut down sales of dye sublimation ink there would be a dozens of people buying liters, repackaging into smaller bottles, selling them at three times what they paid for and making some good money - I would be one of them. Not only do you have Sawgrass as the ink police you also have all their deputies (distributors) policing as well. They cannot afford to have people selling dye sub ink to the desktop market either.
> 
> Bottom line real world Sawgrass controls 99%+ of the desktop market.


You do bring up an interesting scenario ... here is a hint.

Intellectual Property Law Blog: Supreme Court Strengthens Patent Exhaustion Doctrine

The actual ruling ..

[media]http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/07pdf/06-937.pdf[/media]

the graphic of the pdf is not showing but it is clickable and will load in the browser. Haven't figured out on the message board to fix the click icon to look right.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

royster13 said:


> Mike please explain what you think is going on on Ebay now...


 
See my other posts, it's not to hard to figure out.


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## royster13 (Aug 14, 2007)

Yes there are a few sales of sublimation ink on Ebay......But there would be way way more if not for something going on....and I think what is going on is Sawgrass.....


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

royster13 said:


> Yes there are a few sales of sublimation ink on Ebay......But there would be way way more if not for something going on....and I think what is going on is Sawgrass.....


My _speculation_ is that more people are afraid of sawgrass suing them directly ... more than they are afraid of getting kicked off ebay. That would be more of a reason to not post on items on Ebay, getting sued for patent infringement that is.

But that was never the original discusion, which was that you _implied_ that no one is able to sell sub inks on Ebay because you hadn't seen any, not whether there were few sales or not.


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## Riderz Ready (Sep 18, 2008)

mgparrish said:


> My _speculation_ is that more people are afraid of sawgrass suing them directly ... more than they are afraid of getting kicked off ebay. That would be more of a reason to not post on items on Ebay, getting sued for patent infringement that is.
> 
> But that was never the original discusion, which was that you _implied_ that no one is able to sell sub inks on Ebay because you hadn't seen any, not whether there were few sales or not.


I can only guess that Royster like many of us may use "no one" as general term not literally. You want to always point out the exception to every statement - who cares? Is it that critical to you to point out one or two people may occasionally sell dye sub ink on Ebay? 

The only thing that matters is Sawgrass has a strong arm and very deep pockets. Try repackaging ink and selling it publicly. You will have a cease and desist in a matter of days. 

It really matters little about the validity of licenses, trademarks, patents, etc. Sawgrass has the big stick and no one (ooops there is that dirty two words again) has found a way to have create a solid business selling inks to the desktop market.

It is what it is.


----------



## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

Riderz Ready said:


> I can only guess that Royster like many of us may use "no one" as general term not literally. You want to always point out the exception to every statement - who cares? Is it that critical to you to point out one or two people may occasionally sell dye sub ink on Ebay?
> 
> The only thing that matters is Sawgrass has a strong arm and very deep pockets. Try repackaging ink and selling it publicly. You will have a cease and desist in a matter of days.
> 
> ...


No one is questioning that sawgrass has a big stick and is using it. I didn't point out the exception to his statement, he challenged my statement that non SG inks are sold openly on ebay. I proved that _some_ non SG inks are openly sold on Ebay. 

Also, I don't know how you define "selling it publicily". Repackaged inks are now being sold on Ebay. The public has access to these sales. These sales have been going on in the open for over a year now. Just because you are not aware of it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. SG cannot claim patent infringment on those due to "patent exhaustion" see the links I posted, they can however try and enforce a license agreement. 

But then the question becomes does the party selling those actually have a license agreement and did they get those originally from a "authorized" retailer.

_Someone,_ perhaps the original puchaser from a "authorized" dealer could be in violation of a license agreement, but those matters are state by state and not enforcable through patent claims. And who is to say the person selling "repackaged" is the original purchaser? And then the question becomes does the _ex parte_ even have a contract with SG?

If you want more info about this I can provide it for you but not online. In fact the _scope_ of this would surprise you, and likely you would find it very funny, if not ironic. BTW it is not really under the radar, those of concern are fully aware of what is going on and they are not very happy about it.

But "gray goods" are perfectly legal and widespread, not just in this case.


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## royster13 (Aug 14, 2007)

mgparrish said:


> No one is questioning that sawgrass has a big stick and is using it. I didn't point out the exception to his statement, he challenged my statement that non SG inks are sold openly on ebay. I proved that _some_ non SG inks are openly sold on Ebay.


Mike you have misunderstood my words....I said "When I last looked, I could not find any "non" Sawgrass inks being sold on Ebay as sublimation inks...."....If I meant "never" I would have used the word "never"....


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

royster13 said:


> Mike you have misunderstood my words....I said "When I last looked, I could not find any "non" Sawgrass inks being sold on Ebay as sublimation inks...."....If I meant "never" I would have used the word "never"....


Ok so we are both clear. But you presented it as a challenge to my statement _implying_ you had doubts as to if they existed. Why else would you state what you stated?

Anyway no big deal, we can drop that if you like.


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## Riderz Ready (Sep 18, 2008)

mgparrish said:


> No one is questioning that sawgrass has a big stick and is using it. I didn't point out the exception to his statement, he challenged my statement that non SG inks are sold openly on ebay. I proved that _some_ non SG inks are openly sold on Ebay.
> 
> Also, I don't know how you define "selling it publicily". Repackaged inks are now being sold on Ebay. The public has access to these sales. These sales have been going on in the open for over a year now. Just because you are not aware of it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. SG cannot claim patent infringment on those due to "patent exhaustion" see the links I posted, they can however try and enforce a license agreement.
> 
> ...


I could careless about 20+ pages of mumbo jumbo. The point is and always has been . . excluding a very few exceptions dye sublimation ink is 99%+ controlled by Sawgrass to the desktop market. There are very specific reasons the sales and marketing of dye sub ink is controlled by Sawgrass and not generally available through standard business practices.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

Riderz Ready said:


> I can only guess that Royster like many of us may use "no one" as general term not literally. You want to always point out the exception to every statement - who cares? Is it that critical to you to point out one or two people may occasionally sell dye sub ink on Ebay?
> 
> The only thing that matters is Sawgrass has a strong arm and very deep pockets. Try repackaging ink and selling it publicly. You will have a cease and desist in a matter of days.
> 
> ...


Adding to my point. What court would issue the cease and desist? 
Jurisdiction is required. 

Whom has the jurisdiction ... the Federal court or a state court? And if a State court ... which state? If a patent suit is filed it must be in Federal court, but since the patent is "exhausted" the lawsuit would have no "standing" per the SCOTUS.

If it was a state court then it would have to be for _breach of contract,_ via the license agreement from point of sale. But that lawsuit could only have standing _if_ a contract existed between the person selling those inks and Sawgrass.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

Riderz Ready said:


> I could careless about 20+ pages of mumbo jumbo. The point is and always has been . . excluding a very few exceptions dye sublimation ink is 99%+ controlled by Sawgrass to the desktop market. There are very specific reasons the sales and marketing of dye sub ink is controlled by Sawgrass and not generally available through standard business practices.


It's only mumbo jumbo if you don't understand it, and the first link is only a single page. Perhaps the language is beyond your comprehension, but it doesn't invalidate the facts just because you don't understand them.

I'm not questioning that Sg controls the market. Your comment "The point is and always has been . . excluding a very few exceptions dye sublimation ink is 99%+ controlled by Sawgrass to the desktop market." is _your_ point, not _the_ point I am arguing that. You are only diverting your argument into new areas. Why?

However, there is a legal loophole and it is being exploted, cheaper rebottled SG ART branded inks are sold openly and they are legally being sold by the selling party. That selling party has no license with Sawgrass, and doesn't need one or have to pay for one, the supreme court has ruled on that. FACT. The license has been paid for once already, but not necessarily paid for by the final selling party. And no contract exists between SG and the final selling party. This happens in many areas, it's called "gray goods" except in this case there doesn't appear to any off shore importing/exporting.


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## Riderz Ready (Sep 18, 2008)

mgparrish said:


> It's only mumbo jumbo if you don't understand it, and the first link is only a single page. Perhaps the language is beyond your comprehension, but it doesn't invalidate the facts just because you don't understand them.
> 
> I'm not questioning that Sg controls the market. Your comment "The point is and always has been . . excluding a very few exceptions dye sublimation ink is 99%+ controlled by Sawgrass to the desktop market." is _your_ point, not _the_ point I am arguing that. You are only diverting your argument into new areas. Why?
> 
> However, there is a legal loophole and it is being exploted, cheaper rebottled SG ART branded inks are sold openly and they are legally being sold by the selling party. That selling party has no license with Sawgrass, and doesn't need one or have to pay for one, the supreme court has ruled on that. FACT. The license has been paid for once already, but not necessarily paid for by the final selling party. And no contract exists between SG and the final selling party. This happens in many areas, it's called "gray goods" except in this case there doesn't appear to any off shore importing/exporting.


Sorry if I am just an old simple business person with a low IQ that does not understand the art of copy/paste/format and arguing the fringes of an issue. My simple little head is geared towards the real world of dye sublimation and how to grow a business and its revenue given today's facts. 

Why anyone would waste so much time on the fringe which generates zero revenue is beyond me. Spend the time on your business. Heck instead of figuring all the so called loop holes out why not just call any non Sawgrass ink dealer and order ink? I have NEVER been asked to provide proof that we run wide format printers. There is no way a ink supplier can prove you do or do not have a wide format printer. Being that I said "no way" you now have an open door to find a fringe example of how it can be done - enjoy yourself.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

Riderz Ready said:


> Sorry if I am just an old simple business person with a low IQ that does not understand the art of copy/paste/format and arguing the fringes of an issue. My simple little head is geared towards the real world of dye sublimation and how to grow a business and its revenue given today's facts.
> 
> Why anyone would waste so much time on the fringe which generates zero revenue is beyond me. Spend the time on your business. Heck instead of figuring all the so called loop holes out why not just call any non Sawgrass ink dealer and order ink? I have NEVER been asked to provide proof that we run wide format printers. There is no way a ink supplier can prove you do or do not have a wide format printer. Being that I said "no way" you now have an open door to find a fringe example of how it can be done - enjoy yourself.


You always steer your arguments in strange places.

First and foremost if you don't like copy and paste get over it. I back up what I say with facts. And you?

And again you draw conclusions of who I am or what I do? BS. You spend just as much time here if not more than I do, at least when I make comments I can back them up with facts. Don't you have a business to tend to also? _You_ brought up the "rebottle" from liters scenario, and _you_ brought up the "cease and desist" scenario. I replied with the facts. *If you don't like "fringe" topics don't start them and then run away from them when you can no longer defend them.* 

I don't have the need to buy in liter prices, why let the ink go old? I don't need those volumes. And I don't buy SG inks anymore, I get mine at wide format prices just at lower volumes. So why should I call anyone else and try and pretend I have a 42 inch or greater printer?

Any more speculations or conclusions you wish to draw out of thin air since you ran out of any legitimate argument or debate? Maybe you could start name calling again or send me nasty PM's?


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## Riderz Ready (Sep 18, 2008)

mgparrish said:


> You always steer your arguments in strange places.
> 
> First and foremost if you don't like copy and paste get over it. I back up what I say with facts. And you?
> 
> ...


More speculations? Nah not really. It is just amusing to get under the skin of an old timer who the industry has left on the side of the road. These ramblings are better suited for dyesub.org where all the old timers that got passed by in the exploding dye sub market continue to exchange old "war" stories. 

Your legal ramblings (I mean facts) play no part in all this. Tell the folks at Cobra Ink and the numerous others who have received letters of "encouragement" from Sawgrass that everything is fine and the courts are on their side. Heck why not just start your own business reselling ink?

I would send a PM just for fun but I do not want you to embarrass yourself by running to Rodney again.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

Riderz Ready said:


> More speculations? Nah not really. It is just amusing to get under the skin of an old timer who the industry has left on the side of the road. These ramblings are better suited for dyesub.org where all the old timers that got passed by in the exploding dye sub market continue to exchange old "war" stories.
> 
> Your legal ramblings (I mean facts) play no part in all this. Tell the folks at Cobra Ink and the numerous others who have received letters of "encouragement" from Sawgrass that everything is fine and the courts are on their side. Heck why not just start your own business reselling ink?
> 
> I would send a PM just for fun but I do not want you to embarrass yourself by running to Rodney again.


Again you speculate out of thin air and then defend your statements by mocking someone. 

It still amazes me how you can say these things "play no part in all this", if they play no part in all this why do you bring them up? 

You brought up things that "play no part in all this" in the first place. Then if someone tries to explain things to you it then becomes "ramblings" or "mumbo-jumbo" since you can't comprehend the additional conversion that follows what you initiate. 

Gee, "passed by in the exploding dye sub market" ... must mean that you have a larger printer and a larger heat press, and sewing machines, truly no one else is worthy.


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## BRC (Mar 27, 2007)

mgparrish said:


> However, there is a legal loophole and it is being exploted, cheaper rebottled SG ART branded inks are sold openly and they are legally being sold by the selling party. That selling party has no license with Sawgrass, and doesn't need one or have to pay for one, the supreme court has ruled on that. FACT. The license has been paid for once already, but not necessarily paid for by the final selling party. And no contract exists between SG and the final selling party. This happens in many areas, it's called "gray goods" except in this case there doesn't appear to any off shore importing/exporting.


Mike
Where did you get your law degree? Do you have a law license to give this advise, saying that the inks are "legally being sold" and stating this as a FACT? It is one thing to state it as an opinion but you are opening yourself up to a world of hurt by offering legal advise here in an open forum.


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## Riderz Ready (Sep 18, 2008)

mgparrish said:


> Again you speculate out of thin air and then defend your statements by mocking someone.
> 
> It still amazes me how you can say these things "play no part in all this", if they play no part in all this why do you bring them up?
> 
> ...


Size does not matter but surely having a business that has 100% of its revenue based on dye sub market does. I support a family and a handful of people based solely on dye sub. Our success and growth has been fueled by customer service, innovative products and being able to understand dye sub market as it relates to real world business. I live it everyday. 

Sure if I did not have to have a consistent supply of resources such as ink I could search the web looking for a rogue person selling ink on eBay every couple months. May work great for someone in your situation who does not do dye sub as a business. Where are all these businesses reselling ink? I do not even see them on Ebay. Why not list the contact information where you buy ink?


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

Riderz Ready said:


> Size does not matter but surely having a business that has 100% of its revenue based on dye sub market does. I support a family and a handful of people based solely on dye sub. Our success and growth has been fueled by customer service, innovative products and being able to understand dye sub market as it relates to real world business. I live it everyday.
> 
> Sure if I did not have to have a consistent supply of resources such as ink I could search the web looking for a rogue person selling ink on eBay every couple months. May work great for someone in your situation who does not do dye sub as a business. Where are all these businesses reselling ink? I do not even see them on Ebay. Why not list the contact information where you buy ink?


Mark, good we are now returning to civility. Just because you don't see them on EBay doesn't mean they don't exist. They are there.

Check your PM


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## Riderz Ready (Sep 18, 2008)

mgparrish said:


> Mark, good we are now returning to civility. Just because you don't see them on EBay doesn't mean they don't exist. They are there.
> 
> Check your PM


Why not just list the place you purchase your ink from? Name, number, email so people can enjoy lower prices? If it is all above board I am sure they would appreciate the exposure and extra business they will receive just like Cobra.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

Riderz Ready said:


> Why not just list the place you purchase your ink from? Name, number, email so people can enjoy lower prices? If it is all above board I am sure they would appreciate the exposure and extra business they will receive just like Cobra.


Those are ebay items, I switched off SG not too long ago, so those are not the inks I use, at least not anymore. Folks can find them easily.

For my current "replacement" inks ...

Kinda like the movie "Fight Club", the first rule of Fight Club is that there is no Fight Club.

You are correct that SG has the mainstream desktop market, but the desktop "fringe" is not as fringe as you think, some in this business are getting bit in the #$% and are very wee-weed up about it and scaring the end users. But those discussions should stay off the forum.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

BRC said:


> Mike
> Where did you get your law degree? Do you have a law license to give this advise, saying that the inks are "legally being sold" and stating this as a FACT? It is one thing to state it as an opinion but you are opening yourself up to a world of hurt by offering legal advise here in an open forum.


I have an Engineering Degree and a comprehensive understanding of patent law is necessary if you want to build/design/manufacturer anything and it is a requirement of my job. Most patent attorneys have Engineering degrees. And I have direct access to an IP Attorney, he sends me technical stuff to review on occasion outside my normal employement. 

If you want to know more about why I know that _some_ inks are being legally sold suggest to research on the "doctrine of first sale". I'm not opening myself up to anything.


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## Riderz Ready (Sep 18, 2008)

mgparrish said:


> Those are ebay items, I switched off SG not too long ago, so those are not the inks I use, at least not anymore. Folks can find them easily.
> 
> For my current "replacement" inks ...
> 
> ...


Why should they stay off the forum? If it is not on the fringe as I may think why not share with the entire community? Just post the contact name, company, email address so all the desktop market can enjoy low prices.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

Riderz Ready said:


> Why should they stay off the forum? If it is not on the fringe as I may think why not share with the entire community? Just post the contact name, company, email address so all the desktop market can enjoy low prices.


You have the links, post if you like. As I stated "they" are on Ebay, folks can find them easily. Info is all there, there is not an email address except people can contact them through the Ebay message system. One has been there over a year.


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## BRC (Mar 27, 2007)

mgparrish said:


> I have an Engineering Degree and a comprehensive understanding of patent law is necessary if you want to build/design/manufacturer anything and it is a requirement of my job. Most patent attorneys have Engineering degrees. And I have direct access to an IP Attorney, he sends me technical stuff to review on occasion outside my normal employement.
> quote]
> 
> You might want to ask your ATTORNEY if it's wise to state things as legal facts when you are not a practicing lawyer. That way when some idiot takes your facts and gets his pants sued off at least you will know why you are being named in a lawsuit of your very own. I'm just saying that an opinion is one thing but you may be crossing a very fine line.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

BRC said:


> mgparrish said:
> 
> 
> > I have an Engineering Degree and a comprehensive understanding of patent law is necessary if you want to build/design/manufacturer anything and it is a requirement of my job. Most patent attorneys have Engineering degrees. And I have direct access to an IP Attorney, he sends me technical stuff to review on occasion outside my normal employement.
> ...


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## Riderz Ready (Sep 18, 2008)

mgparrish said:


> You have the links, post if you like. As I stated "they" are on Ebay, folks can find them easily. Info is all there, there is not an email address except people can contact them through the Ebay message system. One has been there over a year.


Too funny - why not post contact information where you buy ink or do you even buy ink?


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## royster13 (Aug 14, 2007)

I see a few new listings on Ebay today....


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

Riderz Ready said:


> Too funny - why not post contact information where you buy ink or do you even buy ink?


You are starting to sound like a broken record. Those links were for your FYI since for as long as I can remember you kept questioning why hasn't someone taken their "wide format" inks and just rebottle them and resell them for a big markup. 

If you must know the last time I posted an ebay link some of those that you call the "cartel" sent me nasty emails to my home email asking me not to post those and accused me of "shilling" for the Ebay seller. 

So not to appear as "self promoting" or "shilling" I"m not going to post those specifically, I will state that LEGAL inks are on Ebay generally half off of what the "establishment" sells them for. Now _some_ don't like that information out.


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## Riderz Ready (Sep 18, 2008)

mgparrish said:


> You are starting to sound like a broken record. Those links were for your FYI since for as long as I can remember you kept questioning why hasn't someone taken their "wide format" inks and just rebottle them and resell them for a big markup.
> 
> If you must know the last time I posted an ebay link some of those that you call the "cartel" sent me nasty emails to my home email asking me not to post those and accused me of "shilling" for the Ebay seller.
> 
> So not to appear as "self promoting" or "shilling" I"m not going to post those specifically, I will state that LEGAL inks are on Ebay generally half off of what the "establishment" sells them for. Now _some_ don't like that information out.


It is not self promoting to suggest a vendor. If you are not using Sawgrass ink why not just provide the contact information to the legitimate business you buy ink? It would be a great service to those who are looking for legal alternatives to the high cost of ink.

We purchase ink from Digitally Driven in Las Vegas. Great service, great prices


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## 321go (Aug 13, 2011)

**** it, here you go everyone. 

Dye Sublimation Ink US$25/Litre EXW

Dye Sublimation Ink | Inktec Dye Sub Ink

and the best one
InkTec Sublimation & Heat Press Ink (Sawgrass licensed) 400ml | eBay


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

Riderz Ready said:


> It is not self promoting to suggest a vendor. If you are not using Sawgrass ink why not just provide the contact information to the legitimate business you buy ink? It would be a great service to those who are looking for legal alternatives to the high cost of ink.
> 
> We purchase ink from Digitally Driven in Las Vegas. Great service, great prices


I never stated that I am using licensed inks, but the business is "legitimate". It is of no purpose to state where I get those, as no one is going to be able to buy those. 

As I said the first rule of Fight Club, there is no Fight Club.

If you paid attention at all, the LEGAL inks I was referring to are on Ebay, _those_ are rebottled. 

I have bought from 1 of those vendors before and the inks are fine though.

I thought you mentioned before that your ink vendor is not asking about your printer size? I had called them once and they mentioned I needed a 42 inch or greater printer, but that was some time back.

If that is the case of no questions asked but while I'm sure the inks are very good quality ... will someone with a WF1100 be able to buy those and get a profile for the WF1100, or even support for the WF1100? And will they sell those in small enough qnty for a desktop user?


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

royster13 said:


> I see a few new listings on Ebay today....


Yes, I see those, those are the LGP inks I mentioned the other day, and with profiles.


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## Riderz Ready (Sep 18, 2008)

mgparrish said:


> I never stated that I am using licensed inks, but the business is "legitimate". It is of no purpose to state where I get those, as no one is going to be able to buy those.
> 
> As I said the first rule of Fight Club, there is no Fight Club.
> 
> ...


You thought wrong - Shocking! To be honest I have lost total interest in anything you say. It so reminds me of being back in college in a marketing class listening to the professor ramble on about sales/marketing yet they had never really accomplished any level of success in their own business.

Personally I care to learn and share with those that actually do dye sublimation as a business to earn revenue and grow their success. Your discussions belong back on dyesub.org where the dye sub dinosaurs go to die.


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## mn shutterbug (Mar 19, 2009)

You guys are worse than a bunch of bickering old women.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

Riderz Ready said:


> You thought wrong - Shocking! To be honest I have lost total interest in anything you say. It so reminds me of being back in college in a marketing class listening to the professor ramble on about sales/marketing yet they had never really accomplished any level of success in their own business.
> 
> Personally I care to learn and share with those that actually do dye sublimation as a business to earn revenue and grow their success. Your discussions belong back on dyesub.org where the dye sub dinosaurs go to die.


Dude, I live in Phoenix, you are more than welcome to see the equipment I have, what inks I have, the house I live in, and what I do. How about not speculate and see for yourself. Beer on me.

So you are saying they (your vendor) will sell to the desktop no questions asked, have profiles for desktop printers, and supply desktop mL qntys? Simple question, if so, then it would be a good community service as you state. I hear those inks are very good.


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## DAGuide (Oct 2, 2006)

mgparrish said:


> I never stated that I am using licensed inks, but the business is "legitimate".


Coming from someone that has a license to practice of law (in the state of Florida), the statement is contradictory. If a company is selling dye sublimation inks in the United States without a license or under the terms of the license, they are not operating their business in a legitimate manner. To me, this is no different than a garment decorator printing the copyright artwork of another garment decorator. It is really that plain and simple. Unfortunately, it goes on way too much.

Whether anyone likes what is going on with the Sawgrass patent or not, it is something that the industry has to deal with until the patents expire. 

Just my two cents.

Mark


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

DAGuide said:


> Coming from someone that has a license to practice of law (in the state of Florida), the statement is contradictory. If a company is selling dye sublimation inks in the United States without a license or under the terms of the license, they are not operating their business in a legitimate manner. To me, this is no different than a garment decorator printing the copyright artwork of another garment decorator. It is really that plain and simple. Unfortunately, it goes on way too much.
> 
> Whether anyone likes what is going on with the Sawgrass patent or not, it is something that the industry has to deal with until the patents expire.
> 
> ...


You assume the inks are infringing just because they are not licensed? Copyright is very obvious, if I put Micky Mouse on a Tshirt and sell those it is very obvious. 

Are you suggesting that all sublimation inks infringe on the Sawgrass patent or do you think that someone must be accused of infringment first and a court make that determination through finding of fact and due process?

How would you know that any inks fall within the claim scope as defined in the '907 patent? Or do we just take Sawgrass's word on that?


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## DAGuide (Oct 2, 2006)

Mike,



mgparrish said:


> You assume the inks are infringing just because they are not licensed? Copyright is very obvious, if I put Micky Mouse on a Tshirt and sell those it is very obvious.


Actually, I think most lawyers would argue the exact opposite. With patents, things are file and published. Sure you can argue what is considered an infringing product or not. But with copyrights, they don't have to be file or published tell someone takes it to court. 

I got into this industry in 2002 when Sawgrass was in the final stages of their lawsuit with Tropical Graphics. I followed the entire T.O.G. lawsuit as well. I have also paid close attention to the companies that have signed licensed agreements with Sawgrass over the years (i.e. BASF, Roland, Mimaki,...). These are all huge companies that have legal teams and outside IP counsel that specialize in this stuff. There is a definite reason why these companies have agreed to their license. You can debate this all day long, but there most be some business reason behind this.

Mark


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

DAGuide said:


> Mike,
> 
> I got into this industry in 2002 when Sawgrass was in the final stages of their lawsuit with Tropical Graphics. I followed the entire T.O.G. lawsuit as well. I have also paid close attention to the companies that have signed licensed agreements with Sawgrass over the years (i.e. BASF, Roland, Mimaki,...). These are all huge companies that have legal teams and outside IP counsel that specialize in this stuff. There is a definite reason why these companies have agreed to their license. You can debate this all day long, but there most be some business reason behind this.
> 
> Mark


I understand exactly what you are saying. But TOG never agreed to a license, nor would they have had to.

They (TOG) won the Markman which almost always means "game over", SG had to buy them off $$$. Every success SG had before meant nothing. TOG found the recipe, and SG the last I looked over at PACER hasn't been in '907 litigation since TOG (2008). 

So I repeat my question, how would a sublimation ink be deemed "not legitimate" or at least a business selling those not be "legitimate" unless the inks are found infringing. 

But I don't really want to parse the term "legitimate", the business I am speaking of is a not a guy in the alley with a trench coat. They just choose not to have litigation where the deep pockets can "win" just by attrition, as do most small businesses. Bigger companies usually just pay the license, it's cheaper than litigating, whether they can win or not is not always the factor, I understand that.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

DAGuide said:


> Mike,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My point is that patent infringment must be proved. No one can really defend "blatant" copying of say Micky Mouse, if 2 garment companies are in dispute over very similar or the same exact designs, it comes down to who can really prove they had it first, or just how "close" enough the defending parties design is to the other party to be considered infringing. Yes copyrights occur once the art is created, to litigate you need to file the copyright. To be proactive in case of future litigation (anticipated or not) you should file the copyright after you create the design ASAP. 

And yes copyright infringment they too have to be found infringing by due process. But the courts still have to decide a products "legitimacy".


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## midwaste (Apr 8, 2008)

mgparrish, thanks for your words and effort in explaining the situation at hand.

I have a feeling that SG is well aware that their patent is effectively nullified, as they have a laundry list of licensed suppliers, including recent (after the case) Korean suppliers, some or all of which will sell direct at quantity.


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## akar (Jul 1, 2011)

wasn't the point made that sg is illegally blocking competition by threatening the little guys who are not infringing on their patent?


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## pisquee (Jan 8, 2012)

321go said:


> **** it, here you go everyone.
> 
> and the best one
> InkTec Sublimation & Heat Press Ink (Sawgrass licensed) 400ml | eBay


Thank you for saying my ebay advert is the best one. Not sure if you mean best example for the purposed of the discussion, best one in general, or a sarcastic best one though!

Google brought me to this forum, I figured eventually my sales would get picked up by a forum, so I thought I'd join in the discussion.

I am making good sales, not a few sparse ones, as has been implied for people selling these type of inks on Ebay. In fact I totally underestimated how well these were going to sell, and wasn't at all ready when the sales started coming in so quickly.

I have had contact from Sawgrass on a couple of occasions. Nothing along the lines of a "cease and desist" (yet) mainly they are asking questions as to why a large format printer user would only want to buy 100ml of each colour at a time.

As some of the people outside of the UK couldn't see my adverts, I have now added options for posting to USA/Canada. Don't know how my prices compare to sellers over there mind. 

I also sell the full litre bottles, so am not just someone selling rebottled ink. Also, what is said in the advert is true, selling the inks isn't my main business, it is a sideline to my wife's art business, where she uses sublimation a lot.

Anyway, I think I'll have a look around the rest of the forum now.

;-)


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## 321go (Aug 13, 2011)

pisquee said:


> Thank you for saying my ebay advert is the best one. Not sure if you mean best example for the purposed of the discussion, best one in general, or a sarcastic best one though!
> 
> Google brought me to this forum, I figured eventually my sales would get picked up by a forum, so I thought I'd join in the discussion.
> 
> ...


I meant it as in the best, for pricing and for what you are actually selling. You sell your legit sawgrass inks for half the price I got my chinese made ones for per 100ml. After seeing your add I didnt even bother relisting my inks for sale as I knew they would never sell with your add on the same page lmao.
bye the way, this is a great forum, definately check it out 

Dan


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

pisquee said:


> Thank you for saying my ebay advert is the best one. Not sure if you mean best example for the purposed of the discussion, best one in general, or a sarcastic best one though!
> 
> Google brought me to this forum, I figured eventually my sales would get picked up by a forum, so I thought I'd join in the discussion.
> 
> ...


Welcome to the forum


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## wizard1 (Jan 12, 2012)

my listing on ebay yesterday

Title: Sublimation ink x 6 100mls

Description:

6 x sublimation inks
1 x Black
1 x Yellow
1 x L cyan
1 x Cyan
1 x L magenta
1 x Magenta

grab a bargain
happy bidung
thank you 
today i recieve this

[email protected]EBay.com 
13:47 (1 hour ago)
to xxxxxxxxx
eBay sent this message to xxxxxxx (xxxxxxxx).
Your registered name is included to help confirm this message originated from eBay. Learn more. 
MC019 eBay Listing Removed: Patent Violation - Unauthorised Item (662869326) 


Dearxxxxxxxxxx Thank you for your recent auction-style listing on eBay. The rights owner or an agent authorized to act on behalf of the rights owner, Sawgrass Systems, Inc. - Tropical Graphics - TG Europe, notified eBay that this listing breaches intellectual property rights. When eBay receives a report of this type of breach, we remove the listing to comply with the law. 
Questions about the specific violation should be addressed to Sawgrass Systems, Inc. - Tropical Graphics - TG Europe 
You can send an email to: [email protected]sawgrasseurope.com
For more information on how eBay protects Intellectual Property, please visit the following Help page: 
How eBay Protects Intellectual Property (VeRO) 
Unfortunately, the following item(s) breached one or more of our policies and had to be removed from the site. 
280904129297 - Sublimation ink 6 x 100ml bottles

Any associated fees have been credited to your account and any bidders on this item have been notified.

Why did we remove your listing?

You may not list items on eBay that infringe the patent rights of an individual or company. Such listings are both unlawful and against eBay policy.
The rights owner for the item you listed sent us a signed legal statement telling us that your item infringed their copyright, trademark or other rights. We were therefore legally obliged to remove the listing.
If you have any questions about the removal of your listing please contact the rights owners directly.
A patent is a type of intellectual property right that gives a person the sole rights to make use of an invention. The item you are posting may use this invention without their permission, thereby infringing the person's intellectual property rights.
If you need help with this policy, please follow this link:

i contacted ebay, they wont do much
i emailed the tossers:
before i take civil action against you for defamation of character i would like to know why you had my listing , 280904129297 - Sublimation ink 6 x 100ml bottles removed from ebay, there is no reference to your products, trademark company or copyrights anywhere in this listing,
i await your reply


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## royster13 (Aug 14, 2007)

Probably because you called them "sublimation" inks....


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## wizard1 (Jan 12, 2012)

what should i call them then? is the word sublimation copyright? i dont think so


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## royster13 (Aug 14, 2007)

Nothing to do with copyright....It is a patent and/or trademark issue.....


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## wizard1 (Jan 12, 2012)

royster13 said:


> Nothing to do with copyright....It is a patent and/or trademark issue.....


 patent maybe,,, how can i get rid of them on ebay UK?
thank you for your reply


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## royster13 (Aug 14, 2007)

It will probably be quite difficult.....Because you will not be able to describe what they are or what they do....


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## pisquee (Jan 8, 2012)

You could try calling them magic inks?!


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## wizard1 (Jan 12, 2012)

royster13 said:


> It will probably be quite difficult.....Because you will not be able to describe what they are or what they do....


what if i put up for sale, 1 white sublimation tshirt and put in the description that i will also throw in free of charge 6 x 100mls of inks and make the price reflect the products?


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## royster13 (Aug 14, 2007)

It seems in the past efforts to re-list stuff like that was more an exercise in frustration versus being successful......I think they will be following any listings you make and be on your case for anything they can....


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## akar (Jul 1, 2011)

Yes - call them high temperature or even gas vapor inks and you might slip by the police


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## Corel Whisperer (Sep 1, 2010)

Polyester transfer medium!


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## wizard1 (Jan 12, 2012)

nothing found on ebay under both titles, but thanks, i may have to try the sub tshirt with a give away .


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## akar (Jul 1, 2011)

Just place it under "inks", but use those words in your description. Maybe...


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

wizard1 said:


> my listing on ebay yesterday
> 
> Title: Sublimation ink x 6 100mls
> 
> ...


Ebay in the US is not pulling sublimation inks off of listing, seems several have been "flagged" in the UK though.

I would also suggest that you should have asked them what proof that your inks actually infringe, if you have not sold there before how could they have bought them and tested for infringment?


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## pisquee (Jan 8, 2012)

In Sawgrass' eyes, the mere fact that they are sublimation inks for us in a computer printer is enough for them to infringe their patents. Ebay don't want to spend time and money hiring lawyers to check things out, so if someone claims an advert infringes on their IP rights, the advert gets pulled - Ebay don't want to get sued!
If you are selling off a used/part used set of inks, you'd normally get away with it, but if it looks like you are trading in inks (i.e. you list lots of inks, or have more than one set of inks available etc) then you will likely get pulled. Also, if your inks are obviously a cheap Chinese/unbranded set, then you are also more likely to get pulled.
The only inks that survive on Ebay are the official licensed brands.


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## wizard1 (Jan 12, 2012)

thx, only selling the one set of six colours that i have no need for


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