# ISS Atlanta DTGs



## spiderx1 (Oct 12, 2009)

Just spent 2 full days at the ISS Atlanta Show. Most of the time with DTGs on the market today. The following is a quick review of JMHO of what is out there today that was at the ISS Atlanta show. First off I would like to thank all for their cooperation and information provided, I found all to be awesome. I would also like to note that Anajet and Belquette were not present, Anajet I believe has a lot on their plate right now but I was very disappointed not to see Belquette there. 
I ask each of the following to print a file that I had that I thought would test each machine and their software. All printed the same file at the same size. They were ask not to tweek the file but print as is. Granted some could have improved the print via photoshop or other art program. However I wanted to see it in the RAW if you will.
I had the following print for me, Brother GT-3, Kornit Breeze, DTG M2 and Neoflex. All presented good prints.
First the Brother GT-3, Brother has made impressive strides in the white ink world, The GT-3 is a well built machine backed by one of the most impressive companies in the world. Their white ink flushing system was impressive, it can flush the white ink out of the system on command. And charge on command. The print came out very nice , the cost of the model I tested was $25K. Well built specifically for DTG work.
The Kornit Breeze, was the fastest print and presented and good print. Big plus for it was the printheads with nozzles 40 times larger than epson based machines, reducing greatly any clogging problems.
Also the pretreat in the the machine and print wet on wet was a plus. Along with the cheapest ink cost of any. Saving $1 plus per shirt and about half the time when looking at pretreat and print. A money saver. Cost of the machine tested $85K.
The DTG M2, overall the most impressive new guy on the street. Made for DTG work, and made to be worked on, meaning made for the end user to service either daily or major repair. Speed when printing one print was about the average of 6 min per black shirt. However when printing 2 shirts at a time the average time was reduced due to a 50% reduction in head turn around time, it prints two shirts side by side. This reduces overall print time on multiple shirts. Price as tested $28K.
Then the NeoFlex, An epson 4880 based machine allowing 3 shirts to be printed at a time, in line. This also helps in production as one shirt is finished another can be loaded without interrupting prints. The printer moves and the platens are stationary. Once again apprix 6 min time per shirt were all except the Kornit. Price as tested 18K.
Overall all presented acceptable prints, pros and cons on each one.
The best print quality without a doubt was the NeoFlex which presented an OMG print, I attribute this to excellent equipment, but then again so where the others, but the software / RIP integration was outstanding, allowing a basic file to be printed without test or tweaking with outstanding results. No test shirts, no extra tuning in PS or Corel. The Hand was the lightest out of the group also. Work flow as excellent with multiple platens.
Next was the DTG M2, with an excellent print and excellent work flow with multiple platens and reduced turn times. 
Next the Brother GT3, Very Good print with a great white ink maintenance system, which if you have been around DTG printing you know is a biggie. 
Next was the Kornit Breeze, still a good print, with the best ink cost and print time but could not quite get to the level of the others, I found colors a bit dull and a little muddie.
So overall, The DTG market is growing, the equipment is getting better. The prints are getting better. But the NeoFlex still gets my vote for unquestionably the best print and overall the best value. This is due to a perfect match of equipment and RIP software, and price, not to mention outstanding tech support. Let me qualify the tech support issue, this conclusion is drawn mostly from the TSF post. I read most if not all DTG post daily so I personally have not dealt with any of the above as I own none of these machines. I do own several DTGs of different brands just none of these. I need to sell more pencils on the street corner to move up in the world. Remember this is JMHO. Congrats to the new comers on a job well done. Once again thanks to all.


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## 102557 (Mar 6, 2010)

the veloci-t?


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## spiderx1 (Oct 12, 2009)

Yep, You are right I did leave that out. I did not have my file printed by them as I really was looking at dark shirt machines. But it does deserve a comment. The Veloci T, Is a CMYK only printer based on the now discontinued Epson 1100. It runs a unique belt / friction drive combo that seems to work well. It is cart based only ink supply which seems to work well but could stand a bulk ink system. Although you can get quite a few shirts out (20 plus) before replacing a cart it did not appear to have reset chips installed which means after 20 shirts you get a low ink light and have to reset it, but then 2 shirts later you get the next and 4 later the next, you get the idea. If this is in fact the situation I would suggest adding a RATF chipset along with a bulk system. It is slow as you might expect but overall a solid printer that has been brought forth into the light by the recent increase in the DIY much lower cost printers. Great Printer for a Soccer Mom. But considering the basic printer that it is based on sold for $110 and no longer in production by epson I question the $7K price tag. How long spare parts will be available would be the question, as the cheaper the printer the less time epson produces spares for. The more expensive pro printers usually have about 6 years after production stops until the supply line is cut off. But on the lesser expensive printers one might expect a much short cut off date. The RIP is minimal but works. With CMYK only you should encounter minimal problems with clogging. It is the first low end DTG that appears to operate as it should, but only time will tell as all new and untested printers. 
A good starter CMYK only printer, get your feet wet then learn to swim. JMHO


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## JeridHill (Feb 8, 2006)

Hi Randy, sorry we didn't get a chance to meet you. This year we chose to do 7 shows and are still in the planning stages for next year. Unfortunately, we can't be at every show, but also know that trade shows are an important step for us as a company. Our next show is SGIA and that would be the last one for this year. On a side note, I really enjoy Atlanta and I'm sure it would have been a great time!


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## allamerican-aeoon (Aug 14, 2007)

I am sorry I missed you and all others there. We all could have beers together. Thanks for all detail reports include prices. . We shall see next shows 9/20-22 Philadelphia and Las Vegas SGIA. 10/18-10/20. Last one for the year.
Cheers! Beers are on me always.


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## cavedave (Dec 5, 2006)

Hello Randy,

On your comments in regards to the Veloci-T, the 1100 is not discontinued and is being produced by Epson for this OEM product.
Parts will not be an issue any more than any other based machine (in fact due to the volume of these machines sold its likly to be much better for parts).
Also I dont think you timed it, for a white shirt its at the same resolution 720x720 compared to a 4880 based machine such as the NeoFlex you will find its not far off the same time (due to software vs hardware microweaving) and due to the larger dot size you get a lot better color saturation (which I have always thought for white shirts was really to low on a 4xxx based machine).

Best regards

-David


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## allamerican-aeoon (Aug 14, 2007)

Epson is strange company. They did same on 4880. They said it is stopped once but keep making. Maybe they change their mind since 4900is not popular model. 4880 was most successful item Epson ever made. 1100 too? But so sure 1800, 1900 is over. AA have stocks coming out of ear, lol. keep coming in too.
Cheers! Beers are on me always.


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## 102557 (Mar 6, 2010)

cavedave said:


> Hello Randy,
> 
> On your comments in regards to the Veloci-T, the 1100 is not discontinued and is being produced by Epson for this OEM product.
> Parts will not be an issue any more than any other based machine (in fact due to the volume of these machines sold its likly to be much better for parts).
> ...


Hello Dave,

I think theres some confusion regarding the wf 1100 being discountinued here in the states the wf 1100 is not offered by epson any longer and the word from compass micro (epson authorized parts dealer) has said it is discountinued also! they still carry parts but there unsure how long!, some clear clarification would be good however the u.s market now has the wf7010 its cmyk only printer but its quite unique it has a 6 channel head 3 for black and cmy super fast!! 
I agree i think the 1100 is a fair speed considering and compared to the 48xx but not compared to the desktops speed.. the diy guys have been building the 1100 for quite some time its a good cmyk printer, but can no longer purchase this printer.. Are you saying epson licensed the 1100 to the dtg manufacturer? I would think the license would be unlikely?

here is the epson page regarding the 1100 as you can see to the right in red its a discountinued product replaced with the wf 7010 http://www.epson.com/cgi-bin/Store/jsp/Product/Specifications.do?sku=C11CA58201&BV_UseBVCookie=yes




.


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## allamerican-aeoon (Aug 14, 2007)

Jeff,
As I wrote above. 4880 is also discontinued by their web site in USA.
I was offered last week 100, and 56 from out of countries.
Very strange. I guess even big company need money too.
Cheers! Beepers are on me always.


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## cavedave (Dec 5, 2006)

The machine is made in Italy and its a local deal via Epson Italy (not Epson Japan as the 4880 has been to some companies).

The 1100 has been discontinued in the US, but its still available in Europe, see
Epson Stylus Office B1100 - Epson

The WF-7010 has 128 nozzles for color and the 1100 has 59 nozzles for Color, so yes the 7010 is going to be twice as fast as an 1100, but the R2000 has 180 nozzles so is still faster again than either of these.
The WF-7010 is also going to be a real pain to drive as it uses a nozzle offset (like the 1100), but its done in a way that makes it pretty complicated to drive and at the moment we are not planning to support this accept for as a single black for film separations (that way we dont have to worry about the nozzle offsets).

Best regards

-David


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## 102557 (Mar 6, 2010)

cavedave said:


> The machine is made in Italy and its a local deal via Epson Italy (not Epson Japan as the 4880 has been to some companies).
> 
> The 1100 has been discontinued in the US, but its still available in Europe, see
> Epson Stylus Office B1100 - Epson
> ...


 Interesting!! thank you..

Im interested in the wf 7010 for film as we disscussed before, its a pretty cool printer and with 3 channels for the black should be up for the task even with a single cart supply!! the 7010 reminds me alot of the ricoh printers!! I did convert one of these using stock drivers but i think its better fit for film and not dtg the way it operates is the drive (feed rod also operates the capping station theres no motor for the capping station which makes it a little more complicated.. I just dropped the drive (cut at capping station) for the platen and added pulley/belt at the capping station and to the drive to reconnect the capping station drive.. (major pain).. there are other alternatives to do this however.. One of the big disadvantages to the wf7010 is when it gets an ink low light it will kick out the media thats being printed during the reset so theres a waste/loss of ink and garment during this episode!! It does have a lot of pre print functions turning the drive due to powering the capping station best fit for removeable or off drive platen system... better for film output.imho


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## spiderx1 (Oct 12, 2009)

Hey Dave thanks for the info. You are right I just considered its availability in the US. I did not time it as I was not trying to make a comparison to the other printers and why it was not in the original post. Jeff had ask. 
Thanks for the detailed info. As always helpful.


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## spiderx1 (Oct 12, 2009)

Peter earlier you mentioned that I posted prices. As always it helps to know the $$$$ to get the overall picture on ROI. The Neoflex being a good example. 18k vs 28K. At 18K I can add a solvent head for 6K thereby adding extensively to my product line capability and significantly increasing ROI. So yes that is a gold star for your product. Ink cost is another area to look at across machines. This depends on ink cost, ink consumption based on RIP capabilities, and waste from cleaning and test shirts. Kornit has lowest ink cost, saving approx $1 per shirt. This adds up if you print a lot. But it entry cost is high at 85K with dryer. Plus I did find its print quality was the least of all rated. The Neoflex had the second lowest ink cost, IMHO, this was due to a lower ink cart cost, and the best RIP on the market that has been tweaked reducing the white ink usage and greatly reducing the need for test shirts.


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## cavedave (Dec 5, 2006)

I should have a WF-7010 driver for Film separations later this week, but it only uses 128 nozzles.

While its has three actuall adressable black channels, I cant use all three because of the way the nozzle offsets work. But you can at least use it for separations.

Note: When I tested it at 720x720 and above using the Epson driver, it also only used the single black channel and only seems to use the multiple K at lower resolutions (no good for film separations anyway, asyou really need 720x720 at least).

Also when I tried black2 or black3 at 720x720 the printer just errors, so I think that the extra black channels can only be used at 360x720 and lower resolutions. 
I will send you the driver Jeff to have a play with.

I really wouldnt like to have to drive this machine as DTG and am hoping Epson are not going to use this configuration long term on the desktops. Its a good couple of weeks development for a CMYK driiver for this beast.

Best regards

-David


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## 102557 (Mar 6, 2010)

cavedave said:


> I should have a WF-7010 driver for Film separations later this week, but it only uses 128 nozzles.
> 
> While its has three actuall adressable black channels, I cant use all three because of the way the nozzle offsets work. But you can at least use it for separations.
> 
> ...


Thanks Daid..

I cant even begin to imagine whats all involved in the programming..I do listen but its beyond my comprehension (nozzle offsets) It would be fun however to watch this stuff in action!! The quailty of the prints i have tested on your rips is fabulous. I just need a dumbed down interface to operate it all

Additionally i have heard alot of good things about filmaker "more powerful, better density control, variable dot, direct to port..etc I plan on seriously upgrading my screen print equiptment this year look forward to the 7010 rip.. 

p.s do you hae any idea how to load the 13x19 in this monster? still havnt figured that out yet with these front paper trays


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## allamerican-aeoon (Aug 14, 2007)

Epson is really strange company. I see 4880 is still for sale also. 
Epson
Anyway, it is good for me. LOL. $2940/ea. Crazy, it used to be $2000. It was most successful model in Epson history so they have right to increase price 47%. I guess 
Cheers! Beers are on me always.


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## Don-ColDesi (Oct 18, 2006)

Hi Randy,

It was great seeing you again in Hotlanta. Just a few things to add regarding the M2 - adding a second garment with the image we printed for you would have added about 1.5 minutes to the print time. Our experience with the M2 versus the DTG Viper (which is 4880 based like the NeoFlex) is that in a production environment that you can expect 1.5 to 2 times the amount of productivity out of the M2. Since the M2 does not use an Epson printer there are no issues with ink chips and waste counters to be reset.


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## allamerican-aeoon (Aug 14, 2007)

Don,
I am sorry you have to compare Viper and NeoFlex but if you want to our production mode is faster than yours on same quality.. It is not just lower resolution only trick.
Anyway, Congrat for finally launching M series again. Lots of luck to you.
Cheers! beers are on me always.


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## Don-ColDesi (Oct 18, 2006)

No worries Peter - sorry you didn't make it to the show. Maybe we will see you in Ft. Worth? If not then maybe at SGIA. 

M-series has been doing quite well - both here and in Europe. It's always fun to be at shows when you are there - I don't typically run into the Neo in the field much. I think we both did well at this show. 

Cheers - beers on you always!


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## allamerican-aeoon (Aug 14, 2007)

Don-ColDesi said:


> No worries Peter - sorry you didn't make it to the show. Maybe we will see you in Ft. Worth? If not then maybe at SGIA.
> 
> M-series has been doing quite well - both here and in Europe. It's always fun to be at shows when you are there - I don't typically run into the Neo in the field much. I think we both did well at this show.
> 
> Cheers - beers on you always!


LOL,
I won't worry if you say so. Thank you. 
You are not run into NeoFlex because we can not sell any.
Last 8 months(?) i did not see Coldeci at shows. I kind a miss my buddies. Let's have beers this time.
Cheers! Beers are on me always.


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## 102557 (Mar 6, 2010)

Don-ColDesi said:


> Hi Randy,
> 
> It was great seeing you again in Hotlanta. Just a few things to add regarding the M2 - adding a second garment with the image we printed for you would have added about 1.5 minutes to the print time. Our experience with the M2 versus the DTG Viper (which is 4880 based like the NeoFlex) is that in a production environment that you can expect 1.5 to 2 times the amount of productivity out of the M2. Since the M2 does not use an Epson printer there are no issues with ink chips and waste counters to be reset.


Don,

I gotta say the m2 is an impressive unit! Someone was explaining to me that the m2 prints or can print at a 40picoliter drop? amazing what the get out of the dx5 head with non epson firmware.. pretty cool stuff.. 

I imagine you guys are doing well.. epson head print quaility without all the hassel of oem epson conversions and firmware restrictions,ink resets and fast prints.. Should be the it printer within the non epson market? where can i get the elec/ boards?


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## Don-ColDesi (Oct 18, 2006)

Hi Peter, 

I missed you in Atlanta. We are limiting ourselves to ISS Shows and SGIA this year. Sales are actually up over last year when we did 18 shows - go figure. We do occaisionally run into in sales on the phone, but not nearly as often as we do at shows. We tend to fit diffeent niches in the marketplace.

Hi Jeff,

I'll be glad to provide you with a set of boards, they will come installed in a nice neat box that looks an awful lot like an M2! 

Actually we are getting more like a 48 pl drop. The machine is pretty quick, stable, has a large print area, and, as you said is free of the Epson-borne encumbrances such as ink chips and waste counter resets as well as those strange Epson error codes. 

Sales on the M2 have been strong across the globe. You can see the machine in Ft. Worth or SGIA in the next month & a half.


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## allamerican-aeoon (Aug 14, 2007)

Don-ColDesi said:


> Hi Peter,
> 
> I missed you in Atlanta. We are limiting ourselves to ISS Shows and SGIA this year. Sales are actually up over last year when we did 18 shows - go figure. We do occaisionally run into in sales on the phone, but not nearly as often as we do at shows. We tend to fit diffeent niches in the marketplace.


Don,
Good to hear that you will come back to shows after 8 months off. I am glad to hear you are selling lots of Ms and sales are up while we are struggling. Bad economy I have been so worried until you said "peter don't worry". Thanks.
Does your different niches marketplace was/is good? I hope so. Now you are coming back for what you used do with us? Maybe this is why you did not run into NeoFlex anymore on top of we do not make any more NeoFamily. I stay here in Tsf and shows and these are my home. 
Anyway beers will on me always.


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