# bobbin or thread problem????



## RPMInkz (Nov 12, 2007)

i recently aquired a barudan embroidery machine. i had a service tech come out & run through the machine, but he never ran any designs to really "set-up" the machine. since he's $70 an hr & $80 for trip charge i can't just call him back, LOL!!!! i'm looking for someone local who could help but in the meantime i figured i'd post this here & see what everyone thinks.

these are a few things i'v stitched in the past day or 2 & i'm thinking somethings not set right. take a look at these pics & if anyone can give me any info i would greatly appreciate if it.

TIA


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## JAF (Oct 12, 2008)

I'm very surprised that the tech did not run a sewout. I would call him and ask advice (at no charge) on your problem. It appears to be a tension issue.
Did you do the drop bobbin test. If that was OK I would look to the top thread tension as the problem. You need to balance the top and bottom tension. Sort of a push/pull thing. Instead of doing a letter, try a doing a classic I test at about an inch. It depends on the stitch width. Do a set up with as many I's as you have needles. Sew out each one. You should have one third bobbin showing.


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## JAF (Oct 12, 2008)

Also, try sewing on regular material. Not a cap or backing. This will give you a better startiing point for tension. Just hoop a piece of fabric and try it out.


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## RPMInkz (Nov 12, 2007)

yeah, i was highly disappointed in the "training" he spent a good amount of time on maintenence which is good, but not enough time on the machine or software itself. he was also training me like i've owned machines before & i kept telling him this is my first time. i talked to him on the phone & he told me to run an H test, said H's are better since they have a horizontal stroke also, but that really don't help out too much.
i've done the bobbin test & is seams good to the best of my knowledge. i feel on the top tensioners i'm just turning knobs & not getting anywhere. it's a 15 needle so there's a lot of knobs, LOL!!!!!
i'll hoop a shirt tomorrow on my large hoop & run 15 H's & go from there till i can find someone local to come out.

thanks for the help.


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## myfinishingtouch (Nov 21, 2009)

I've always used an I test...do it for every needle. 

Buy a thread tension gauge...
Wholesale Embroidery Parts & Embroidery Supplies From Sew Many Parts ASC, ItemName&dir=ASC&cpage=1

It does seem like you have too many knobs to turn up top. I'd start all knobs with the same number of threads on the inside screw showing. Then run the I test and see how the bobbin tension looks. If that is fine then consider the top thread tension. On my Barudan, needle #1 which is right next to where the little felt backed thread hold down locks in runs considerably tighter than all of the other threads with the same number of screw threads showing so I need to back off #1 to get to the same thread tension as the other needles.

It looks like you are doing trims in between each letter. That will account for a lot of the excess thread you are getting, but it does look like you have tension issues.


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## JAF (Oct 12, 2008)

A couple of thoughts.
If you paid for a Barudan tech, I would call Barudan back an complain. He charged the going rate. If he was good with the machine I would keep his phone number. IMO good techs are hard to find.

Proper tensioning is an art. You need to know what you are doing. You not only have the tension knobs, you also have the screw inside the tension knob. Many years ago I tightened that screw and messed up the tension & had to replace several springs.
Make sure that whoever you get to do this for you knows what they are doing.


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## ShirlandDesign (Nov 29, 2009)

You might try going to youtube and watching a video or two on doing a bobbin drop test to set the bottom tension, and then chase it with the primary tensioners on top. Horizontal and vertical mean nothing to the tensioners, only to the pantograph. And if your not timed right it's impossible to tension well. The whole setup looks a little loose to me. Also if your digitizer doesn't use a stitch proximity filter sometimes stitches too close will not pull tight.


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## AndTees (Jul 6, 2009)

Those kind of messy stitches on the back could indicate the bridge is set too close... easy to happen if the tech set the timing.

The bridge is the little piece that keeps the bobbin from turning around. It needs some room between the bridge and the bobbin holder for the thread to pull through. Too tight and you get the loopy back-side.


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## logoemp (Mar 1, 2010)

I would say that if the machine is new your settings should be in pretty good shape. I too am surprised that the tech did not run a test design. Did you create this design yourself through an embroidery digitizing software program? If so what is the density of the design? Looks like there are alot of stitches in there. Rule of thumb I was taught is when looking at the bobbin thread on the back,; little white means bobbin is too tight or upper tension is too loose; too much white means bobbin is too loose and/or upper tension is too tight.


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## RPMInkz (Nov 12, 2007)

thanks for all the input, i really appreciate it.
it's not a new machine, it's a 98 barudan, single head 15 needle & it's been sitting in storage for about a year or so.
like i said i'm totally new to embroidery & trying to learn as fast as i can. i watched a few youtube video's & have been playing around with it & i think i pretty much got it. here's a pic of the last test i ran. i'm thinking my upper tension needs to be a little looser on most, but it's definately better then before.

what do you think?


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## myfinishingtouch (Nov 21, 2009)

Several are just fine. There are a few that need to be loosened and a couple that need to be tightened. As I said before, you should buy a top thread tension gauge. They are only about $12 or so.


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## RPMInkz (Nov 12, 2007)

Thanks again for all the input. 
could you please tell me which ones you think need to loosened & which one tightened?
I'm diffinately going to buy the tension tool. i'm going to check a few local fabric & sewing shops tomorrow. if they don't have them i'll order the one you posted the link to.

once again, THANKS for the help everyone.


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## JAF (Oct 12, 2008)

Did you or the tech replace the bobbin cases? Did anyone clean out from under the spring, if the cases are old? I replace my cases at least once a year.


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## RPMInkz (Nov 12, 2007)

we did put a new bobbin in & since i've swapped out the bobbin case & bobbin. hopefully with a few more adjustments i'll be set, LOL!!!!


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## myfinishingtouch (Nov 21, 2009)

If all of them looked too tight or too loose I'd adjust the bobbin thread tension. But since they appear different I'd adjust the top thread tension. Look at how they sewed out...you should have 1/3 white and 1/3 colored thread on either side. If the white bobbin thread is very narrow then odds are the top thread tension is too loose allowing the bobbin to pull the top thread too far under the material. Tighten the top thread tension of the color with the very narrow strip of bobbin thread. If the bobbin thread is very wide then loosen the top thread tension.

Does that make sense to you?


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## JAF (Oct 12, 2008)

The stitches, on the H test that you sent me, are 8.8mm to 9.5 mm. This is too wide of a stitch for testing. Set up the letters so the stitch width is about (.25in) 6mm but not longer than 8mm


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## leisure (Mar 3, 2007)

What are your thoughts on thread continually breaking and backing up on the needle? Instead of birds nesting on the bottom it's doing on the needle.


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## JAF (Oct 12, 2008)

A burr on the needle, tension too tight, old thread.


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## JAF (Oct 12, 2008)

or maybe you have too many small stitches in an area of the design, that is causing the thread to fray. This could also happen if you are sewing on a rough material. You might need to use a larger needle.


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## leisure (Mar 3, 2007)

JAF said:


> A burr on the needle, tension too tight, old thread.


Needles have been changed, cover plate has been polished,knife cutter cleaned, rotary hooked checked and tension adjusted, could it still be tension? seems like all the needles are starting to do it.


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## leisure (Mar 3, 2007)

JAF said:


> or maybe you have too many small stitches in an area of the design, that is causing the thread to fray. This could also happen if you are sewing on a rough material. You might need to use a larger needle.


Are you saying the more stitches the bigger the needle. I'm using 75/11 on pique, chest design with about 8000 stitches 3.5 x3.5


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## JAF (Oct 12, 2008)

75 on pique is good. It doesn't make any difference what the stitch count is.
When I talk about too many small stitches I'm referring to the stitch length. I found that if I haven't cleaned up a stock design, it might have alot of .5 mm stitches (short stitches). Too many of these, especially in a small area, can cause the thread to fray.
Depending on the design, I might switch to a 80/10 needle for a material like a Carhartt. The 80 will make a larger hole and help the thread slide through the hole with less friction.


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## leisure (Mar 3, 2007)

JAF said:


> 75 on pique is good. It doesn't make any difference what the stitch count is.
> When I talk about too many small stitches I'm referring to the stitch length. I found that if I haven't cleaned up a stock design, it might have alot of .5 mm stitches (short stitches). Too many of these, especially in a small area, can cause the thread to fray.
> Depending on the design, I might switch to a 80/10 needle for a material like a Carhartt. The 80 will make a larger hole and help the thread slide through the hole with less friction.


It's not just happening with 1 design it's several.I thank you so much for all your input.Hopefully I can figure this out.I just had the service guy out on Monday.He is 4 hrs away.


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## RPMInkz (Nov 12, 2007)

JAF said:


> The stitches, on the H test that you sent me, are 8.8mm to 9.5 mm. This is too wide of a stitch for testing. Set up the letters so the stitch width is about (.25in) 6mm but not longer than 8mm


 
all this damn metric, LOL!!!!! another thing i has to get use to.

when i measure the finish product the stroke, or width is right at 1/4". i'll shrink them down a little & run another test, then adjust my tension.


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## LUV DEM TIGERS (Jul 25, 2008)

Also thread shredding can be from needles not in correctly. Make sure the scarf is to the back and that it is centered or ever so slightly to the right.


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## Liberty (Jul 18, 2006)

leisure said:


> Needles have been changed, cover plate has been polished,knife cutter cleaned, rotary hooked checked and tension adjusted, could it still be tension? seems like all the needles are starting to do it.


If it happens on all of the needles then the problem is from the needle plate down.

Make sure when your needles drop they are going in the center of the hole in the needle plate. Some machines have a specific method of installing the needle plate, don't trust the two countersunk screws to do it right.

Most common problem would be a nick or burr on the hook or needle plate usually caused by a needle strike and/or broken needle.

And if you ever break a needle, always, always, always make sure you find the broken piece. Never ever trust that it just flew out of the way. Remember that for ever stitch, the top thread has to make two loops around the bobbin case so even the tiniest of imperfections in the hook can cause troubles.

Timing issues can cause problems also but that should be your last resort.

Oh, and on some machines like the melco EMT's that have a UTC under thread sensor, make sure there are no nicks or scratches on the little arm. Those little suckers can be terrible. Most machines now use a software extrapolation to determine empty bobbins but the ones with UTC's are still around.

One other thought, cheap needles. I hate to mention brands but there are several that I will not allow in the building. Take a magnifying glass and look a the eye of a brand new needle. If it is not mirror smooth then your needles are junk for commercial machines. I won't mention the brands we hate but the only brand of needle allowed in my shop is Groz-Beckert. The quality of the needle is the only thing above the needle plate that should or could affect thread shreading on every needle. The odds of every cone of thread being bad or every top thread path being bad are so remote as to be eliminated.


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## leisure (Mar 3, 2007)

LUV DEM TIGERS said:


> Also thread shredding can be from needles not in correctly. Make sure the scarf is to the back and that it is centered or ever so slightly to the right.


I have the long slit facing the front and the short indention facing the back with the hole center.Hope thats right because thats how I've always done it


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## Liberty (Jul 18, 2006)

RPMInkz said:


> all this damn metric, LOL!!!!! another thing i has to get use to.
> 
> when i measure the finish product the stroke, or width is right at 1/4". i'll shrink them down a little & run another test, then adjust my tension.


OK, I'll beg your forgiveness up front if my following assumption is wrong and if what I'm about to say offends anyone - oops, not my intention.

I'd be willing to bet that you too are of the male side of the gender aisle. Nothing wrong with that, I be one too. But we guys just can't resist a piece of machinery with all of those shiney knobs. Heck, if they weren't meant to be messed with, then why put them there, right.

Now the problem with many of the gentler persuasion is that these same rows of knobs can be intimidating. "what if I mess something up?"

Sorry, couldn't resist. But there is a moral to this story. 

_SET THE DARNED THINGS ONCE THEN QUIT MESSIN WITH THEM._

Seriously, get a good bobbin tension guage. Start with a very clean bobbin and set the tension. Then leave it alone. You will likely have to clean the firch out from under the spring frequently and it doesn't hurt to check the tension once in a while. but for the most part, leave it alone. And please don't get me started about the "Drop Test" method of setting bobbins. Way back when our machines ran oh so slow as 300 to 500 SPM, the drop test might have been OK but not any more.

For the top threads, make sure your thread path is correct and CLEAN, set the tensions using the H test then leave them alone.

From this point onward, use tension issues only as a means of pointing you to the problem not as an excuse to mess with those knobs.

I have 25 years of this stuff on several machine brands and I've had probably lots of employees running machines for me over the years. I kid you not, if I could weld the tensioners in place I would. 

So here is what I think having looked at your sewouts. Your H test looks tolerable but remember, the H test only shows the _balance_ between the two threads, upper and lower. You can still be too tight or, as I think is the case here, too loose.

We tend to run our machines a little tight. We almost never run an H test unless we do some serious maintenance. Our tensions are set right and from that day forward tensions become a troubleshooting tool. Too much bobbin showing or top thread looping and you probably have a thread path issue. This could really be the case for you since you have an older machine.

Clean under the spring on the bobbin case. Almost every single time we change a bobbin we are at least visually looking at the spring. Look between the two chrome disks on your tensioners and you may find more junk. These threads we run have a tendency to leave a bit of a buildup throughout the thread path and you've got to keep the path clean. A little ball of firch under the spring or between the tensioners and you can twist knobs all you want to no avail.

Keep things clean and oiled and stop messing with the knobs!

One other off the wall thought, are your bobbins in correctly? There is a right and wrong way for the bobbin to be rotating in the case.

OK, I lied, one more thought. We use the H test only as a quick verification after doing light maintenance. If we are trying to troubleshoot what we think may be a timing issue, we use a FOX test. Forming the letters FOX will put the pantograph trough every conceivable direction of movement. Our H test consists of H's about .6" and ur FOX test is the word FOX about .75 to 1".

Oh, and did I mention you should set em and forget em? Quit messin with the knobs...


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## RPMInkz (Nov 12, 2007)

but the knobs are just SCREAMING at me to turn them!!!!!!!!

seriously, i would love to get them right & just leave them. i think i'm pretty close so i'm just going to start a few production jobs & go from there. i truely have a lot to learn but i think i can handle it. i've ran a lot of equipment in the past, plotter, digital printers, cnc routers, channel letter machines, & a few others in the sign business & have tought myself pretty much everything i know. there's just some many knobs, LOL!!!!
i do have another question, once the tensions are set, will they need to be changed for different types of garments? i plan on mostly doing flexfit caps, & dickies shirts, jackets & shorts. not to say i won't be doing beenies, t-shirts, & other things.


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## JAF (Oct 12, 2008)

Mark, you have make some great points.
We never use a tension gauge. My operator is exceptional at tensioning by hand. I'm very lucky to have her.
Overall we don't mess with tension, except for tweaking, depending on the material. She will look at the sewout and she will know what needs adjusting. I'm very lucky to have her.
I agree with the tension being too loose but I wanted to run a sewout to be sure.
Is the bobbin in correctly...I never thought of that. Good catch.


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## Liberty (Jul 18, 2006)

RPMInkz said:


> but the knobs are just SCREAMING at me to turn them!!!!!!!!
> 
> seriously, i would love to get them right & just leave them. i think i'm pretty close so i'm just going to start a few production jobs & go from there. i truely have a lot to learn but i think i can handle it. i've ran a lot of equipment in the past, plotter, digital printers, cnc routers, channel letter machines, & a few others in the sign business & have tought myself pretty much everything i know. there's just some many knobs, LOL!!!!
> i do have another question, once the tensions are set, will they need to be changed for different types of garments? i plan on mostly doing flexfit caps, & dickies shirts, jackets & shorts. not to say i won't be doing beenies, t-shirts, & other things.


Oh man do I feel your pain. I remember like it was yesterday when our first machine showed up. Within hours I had that thing so screwed up it was almost funny.

To answer your question, not really. We don't change much for different substrates. We run a lot of flex fits and to be honest, we stick the hat drivers on and go. If we are doing a long run we will switch needles. I really like Groz Beckert Gebelub teflon coated needles but I haven't been able to find them lately. We are pretty careful about digitizing or editing the designs for caps. Center out and bottom up plus we go out of our way on flex fits to make sure the tie in and tie off points are not on the center seams.

We have one needle setup for metallic thread and never run anything else on that needle. We have white, black and red on specific needles and those colors almost never come off. We use the remaining 11 needles for the on and off colors. We run a 75 light ball needle and on occasion we switch to sharps for wovens and switch to a 80 for some caps. We've experimented with fine thread and 65 needles for tiny lettering and it does make a difference as long as the design is digitized accordingly but by and large we stay with Isacord 40 and 75 light ball needles.

Now all of this needs to be tempered with the fact that we are now running tajima machines exclusively. We've had four different brands over the years plus I've worked with two others. There are a lot of different tensioning and thread handling systems out there and they all act a little different. Aside from jumbo bobbins, most of the machines are nearly identical below the needle plate though. Again, I'm not going to single out any specific brands but there are several I think are nightmares for new embroiderers. Barring some major change I personally will never buy anything but Tajima but I don't think you'd go wrong with baradun either. 

Back to tensions, just remember that as long as you have no bobbin showing on top and no thread looping, you can have your tensions set within a pretty wide range and be OK. Don't over analyze.

And don't forget the third tension - the substrate in the hoop. Never underestimate the effect the hooping itself will have or the backing/topping recipe. Just to ilustrate this, take your H-test and sew on a pique knit scrap. Do it a variety of ways. Hoop it with the material a little loose and a very light backing and no topping. Then do it with the material loose, two pieces of cuttaway and a solvy. Then do it with the material streatched tight as a drum. You get my point. after you run the samples, turn it over and look at the back, then take it out of the hoop and look at the back.

All of this goes back to the point - set it and leave it alone. Get your recipes figured out and do things the same way over and over again. Same tensions, same thread, same backing, same hooping etc. and quit mesing with it.

If you do all of this, eventually you will find that most of your problems are in the designs themselves. Good digitizing makes all the difference in the world. Do not settle for less than excellant digitizing. If your business favors stock designs and keyboard lettering then you have another set of issues but even then good underlay, correct densities etc. are crucial. Filtering out small stitches will make your life a dream as well. A lot of stock designs are full of stitches shorter than about .5mm. These tiny stitches will cause problems on the best machines and with the best operators. We always filter the small stitches, in fact, our software does it automatically.

And take care of your machine, clean and well oiled. If you run them fast like we do then oiling the hooks every four hours or so is paramount. Follow the manufacturers recommendations religiously.

And have fun with it.


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## Liberty (Jul 18, 2006)

JAF said:


> Mark, you have make some great points.
> We never use a tension gauge. My operator is exceptional at tensioning by hand. I'm very lucky to have her.
> Overall we don't mess with tension, except for tweaking, depending on the material. She will look at the sewout and she will know what needs adjusting. I'm very lucky to have her.
> I agree with the tension being too loose but I wanted to run a sewout to be sure.
> Is the bobbin in correctly...I never thought of that. Good catch.


Yes, a really good operator is a godsend. But keep this in mind also. We have several machines and several operators. I don't want one operator running the machine one way and another coming along and spending time changing things around. They are my machines, my rules. Now this is not to say I don't take the advice of my better operators, heck yes I do. Most of our shop procedures came from sources other than my own imagination.

This thread has gotten a bit confusing, at least for my tired old brain, in that there are several different scenrios being discussed in the same thread. But great information being thrown around that's for sure.


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