# Comparing print quality between dtg and transfer



## tim3560 (Jan 7, 2007)

Has anyone compared the quality of a dtg print to that of a transfer off of an epson 4880 or higher?
Obviously there has to be a difference or everyone would only be spending $2,000 for a 4880 instead of 10k plus for a dtg.


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## treadhead (Jul 26, 2006)

tim3560 said:


> Has anyone compared the quality of a dtg print to that of a transfer off of an epson 4880 or higher?
> Obviously there has to be a difference or everyone would only be spending $2,000 for a 4880 instead of 10k plus for a dtg.


Good Post Tim...

I've often wondered the same thing. We have a T Jet 2 and also use the Softstretch transfers from Coastal Business. However, we only have an Epson c88 but usually, the transfer comes out more vibrant in my opinion.

Now, I can't say anything about how long they last in comparison at this point...

Would be interesting to hear what others have to say.

John


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## the funk (Aug 8, 2007)

I have never compared quality side by side, but there are many advantages to dtg.

The hand is much softer.
Not limited to square images or using a cutter.
The image doesnt crack or peel.
No size restrictions.
Im not sure if you can transfer over seams, but I can print seams with dtg.
Cheaper per shirt.
I dont think you could apply a transfer to your toilet seat, lol.

Not to mention, many people just plain dont like transfers.


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## mk162 (Sep 24, 2007)

That last point is a good one. Transfers really got a bad name a few years ago. That is a real shame since some of the new(er) stuff out there is awesome.

I don't do transfers here, but I use a GT-541. It's faster than most printers will print a transfer. And I don't have to line up the paper on each shirt. I just pull the shirt on just like a regular press and hit a button. As far as ease of use goes, it much easier and faster. Of course, that does come with a price.


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## the funk (Aug 8, 2007)

To clarify, I have a flexi jet L so I have "virtually" no size restrictions with a 17"x54" printing space.

Some of the other printers are smaller.


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## tim3560 (Jan 7, 2007)

the funk said:


> I dont think you could apply a transfer to your toilet seat, lol.


lol Well I'm definitely sold now.


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## Chani (Jun 18, 2007)

treadhead said:


> Good Post Tim...
> 
> I've often wondered the same thing. We have a T Jet 2 and also use the Softstretch transfers from Coastal Business. However, we only have an Epson c88 but usually, the transfer comes out more vibrant in my opinion.
> 
> ...


Hmmm...is it the inks that aren't as vibrant with DTG?

I'm trying to decide which way to go with some of our designs.


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## treadhead (Jul 26, 2006)

Chani said:


> Hmmm...is it the inks that aren't as vibrant with DTG?
> 
> I'm trying to decide which way to go with some of our designs.


It seems that way....even when I use the 1440 mode. It's not like the DTG looks bad...just not as vibrant. My wife even made the comment when she saw a shirts that was done with the heat transfer several weeks back. She saw the shirt and said that she thingks it looks better than when we do pictures on the DTG.

Now...I've recently overhauled the machine and put a new printhead, capping station and cable ribbon in so I might want to do another comparison just to make sure. 

I still prefer the DTG...but that was one CON that came to mind between them. Other than size restrictions and others.

John


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## Chani (Jun 18, 2007)

I'm leaning toward DTG, too, but we don't have anywhere near the funds to buy a commercial DTG machine right now, so we'd need to go the DIY route.

The reason I'm leaning that way right now is that I'm still not sure what the durability of transfers is yet, including Jet-Pro SofStretch. That, and people's perceptions of transfers.


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## Tagger (Sep 16, 2007)

treadhead said:


> It seems that way....even when I use the 1440 mode. It's not like the DTG looks bad...just not as vibrant. My wife even made the comment when she saw a shirts that was done with the heat transfer several weeks back. She saw the shirt and said that she thingks it looks better than when we do pictures on the DTG.
> 
> Now...I've recently overhauled the machine and put a new printhead, capping station and cable ribbon in so I might want to do another comparison just to make sure.
> 
> ...


Are you talking about shirts with white ink? If not do you use FastColor pretreatment?


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## sunnydayz (Jun 22, 2007)

The fast color works great, it is amazing how much better the color looks and it holds up really well.


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## tim3560 (Jan 7, 2007)

So the transfers are more vibrant but the dtg holds up longer and has more hand?


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## sunnydayz (Jun 22, 2007)

The transfer has more hand than the dtg.


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## tim3560 (Jan 7, 2007)

sunnydayz said:


> The transfer has more hand than the dtg.


Sorry, that's what I meant. I thought that I remembered seeing posts where the hand was getting softer and the transfers were holding up longer.


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## sunnydayz (Jun 22, 2007)

I think transfers are getting better but because it is just ink and not ink and adhesive, like on transfers then the hand is going to be lighter on the dtg garment.


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## tim3560 (Jan 7, 2007)

Ahhh, well that makes since, and it beats sublimation because sublimation only works well on light shirts, and dtg works on all colors.


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## sunnydayz (Jun 22, 2007)

You also can only subliminate on poly fabrics, it doesnt work on cotton.


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## Chani (Jun 18, 2007)

You can print on colors with MOST DTG machines, but not all. They need to be able to print white.


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## sunnydayz (Jun 22, 2007)

That is exactly right Chani, if they dont have the white ink, they will only be able to print on light colors. The brother is one that cannot print on dark fabrics.


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## Chani (Jun 18, 2007)

And if you've read the DIY DTG, that won't be able to print on darks, either, unfortunately.

I've heard that the washability of white ink isn't all that great, tho. Is that true?


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## zhenjie (Aug 27, 2006)

Chani said:


> And if you've read the DIY DTG, that won't be able to print on darks, either, unfortunately.
> 
> I've heard that the washability of white ink isn't all that great, tho. Is that true?


THe washability has been getting better, especially for the Dupoint. It's still not perfect however. The Kornit inks prints I've seen hold up better then the Dupoint inks.


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## Chani (Jun 18, 2007)

Thanks! 

Someday I'd like to get a commercial machine...


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## sunnydayz (Jun 22, 2007)

I have great results with the white, more so now with the new white ink.


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## treadhead (Jul 26, 2006)

Tagger said:


> Are you talking about shirts with white ink? If not do you use FastColor pretreatment?


No...designs printed on white shirts.

No....but good point about the Fastcolor. I've read alot about it on the USSPI Forum and just received my sample bottle the week before my machine went down so I haven't had a chance to try it out. Thanks for the reminder!!

But, even so, I would probably try avoiding having to pretreat white shirts. BUT...if there is that big of a difference...it may be worth it.

John


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## treadhead (Jul 26, 2006)

tim3560 said:


> So the transfers are more vibrant but the dtg holds up longer and has more hand?


Well..yes and no. The transfers seem more vibrant but has more hand than the DTG. But, the DTG I believe holds up better over time.

However, there is quite a bit of discussion on the USSPI Forum (and some here) about the wash fastness of the new FastInk 3 without the FastColor pretreatment on light colors. I haven't experienced this problem yet but who knows what may come back in the near future. I do need to do some more wash tests since I just got into the FastInk 3 bottles.

So..nothing is really certain at the moment.....


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## treadhead (Jul 26, 2006)

sunnydayz said:


> You also can only subliminate on poly fabrics, it doesnt work on cotton.


I also seem to have trouble with printing on 50 / 50 blends with my DTG. If I don't use white ink & pretreatment..everything seems fine. But, when I have to use the pretreatment and white ink, the colors are not as bright as when I print on 100% cotton. There seems to be a problem with the interaction of the pretreatment with the poly fibers.


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## treadhead (Jul 26, 2006)

Chani said:


> And if you've read the DIY DTG, that won't be able to print on darks, either, unfortunately.
> 
> I've heard that the washability of white ink isn't all that great, tho. Is that true?


I have not had any problem with washability of my white ink. I made quite a few black shirts that required white ink for our church and get the opportunity to see alot of them from week to week and haven't noticed any of them fading at all. And this was before the new / improved white ink that just came out.


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## treadhead (Jul 26, 2006)

sunnydayz said:


> I have great results with the white, more so now with the new white ink.


I've found the coverage and brightness of the new white ink to be much better than the old ink. IMHO...

Just an Edit to this post:

I attached a picture of a shirt we designed and printed yesterday for LSU fans. It was pretreated with a 50% solution and 1 pass 1440 underbase and 2 passes color at 720. I never was able to get this type of consistency with the underbase in 1 pass before the overhaul.

This picture illustrates what the new white looks like..in 1 pass.


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## Chani (Jun 18, 2007)

That's great to know for several reasons!  About white ink, that is.

I may not be able to buy a DTG for a while, but it makes me feel a little more confident if I decide to open a CafePress store for designs I can't do with vinyl.


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## Gunslinger (Aug 3, 2007)

Chani,

Look over past posts of mine or Bobbie's, we have posted pictures of the quality of prints with the new white ink from Dupont. And the washability is great.

To clarify John's point with a washability issue of FastInk 3 (or the latest version of Dupont color inks) on the T-Jet forum ... I had a scare after washing a print that had blue in it the print. The rest of the print was great, but the blue had washed terrible. After numerous tests, it ended up that our industrial strength washer and detergent reaked havoc with the some shades of blue (cyan is the thinnest of the inks). I solved the problem by washing with Woolite (we didn't have any other regular washing detergent) with a lower spin cycle. I don't know if we had a bad batch of cyan ink, or if the ink is simply too sensitive, in general.


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## Chani (Jun 18, 2007)

Thanks! I'll do a search.


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## prometheus (Oct 19, 2006)

One thing I would really like to see is side by side comparisons of all the technologies. I'm not sure if it has been mentioned already, but one obvious difference would be that there is not really a good "dark" transfer solution. I think the DTG beats it hands down in this case. 

When I went to the ISS show, I think I got a sample of the Fast T-Jet 3 on a black shirt, and after the wash, it was still bright and vibrant.


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## Gunslinger (Aug 3, 2007)

Debz just called me from the show. One company has laser transfer paper (very expensive) that is able to transfer to dark shirts. I asked for a sample, but they are only selling them. We may buy a pack, but my wife has to check if it is compatible with our printer. Too expensive for folks like us with a DTG machine, already, but might be more feasible for folks with smaller budgets.


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## prometheus (Oct 19, 2006)

Gunslinger said:


> Debz just called me from the show. One company has laser transfer paper (very expensive) that is able to transfer to dark shirts. I asked for a sample, but they are only selling them. We may buy a pack, but my wife has to check if it is compatible with our printer. Too expensive for folks like us with a DTG machine, already, but might be more feasible for folks with smaller budgets.


There has been a lot of talk on here about a paper, I think it is called WOW.


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## sunnydayz (Jun 22, 2007)

I remember people being really excited about the wow paper a few months back and then didnt hear anything else about it. I think it was supposed to only transfer where there was ink but leave the rest of the transfer that was blank. That would be a good solution for those doing transfers. I wonder what ever happened with it. I will look at the show this weekend Robert and let you know what I find out


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## Gunslinger (Aug 3, 2007)

prometheus said:


> There has been a lot of talk on here about a paper, I think it is called WOW.


That's right, Robert (couldn't recall the name of the product), WOW is the stuff.


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## tim3560 (Jan 7, 2007)

Gunslinger said:


> Debz just called me from the show. One company has laser transfer paper (very expensive) that is able to transfer to dark shirts. I asked for a sample, but they are only selling them. We may buy a pack, but my wife has to check if it is compatible with our printer. Too expensive for folks like us with a DTG machine, already, but might be more feasible for folks with smaller budgets.


Way too expensive like how much per sheet?


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## Gunslinger (Aug 3, 2007)

5 bucks or so a pop, I believe (pack of 20 sheets was 100). Debz got a sample on fabric for me to check out, when she returns. I am assuming your basic 8"x11 1/2" size paper, so it limits the size of your prints.


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## tim3560 (Jan 7, 2007)

Gunslinger said:


> 5 bucks or so a pop, I believe (pack of 20 sheets was 100). Debz got a sample on fabric for me to check out, when she returns. I am assuming your basic 8"x11 1/2" size paper, so it limits the size of your prints.


Is that why it's called WOW??? Not because of how good it is but how expensive?
By the way is she back yet?


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## treadhead (Jul 26, 2006)

Gunslinger said:


> 5 bucks or so a pop, I believe (pack of 20 sheets was 100). Debz got a sample on fabric for me to check out, when she returns. I am assuming your basic 8"x11 1/2" size paper, so it limits the size of your prints.


Yeah...WOW!!! LOL

But, if it really does a nice job printing on dark shirts, it may be worth it. It is certainly cheaper to use vinyl or screenprint for darks but if you need full color & low volume, the $5 may not be so bad if the print quality is comparable to say DTG w/ white ink. 

A DTG print on dark shirts with white ink can cost upwards of $5 per shirt depending on design size when you include ink & pretreatment cost (not to mention the time factor which I believe WOW might be a faster process).


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## Chani (Jun 18, 2007)

That's sort of what I was thinking, too. DTG with White ink isn't exactly cheap.

My question is: How is the hand on this WOW paper? The self-weeding injet paper that I tried totally failed my expectations, even with their sample image to test with, but also it's hand was HORRIBLE! Worse than thick screenprinting.


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## calijimmy (Jul 16, 2007)

treadhead said:


> Yeah...WOW!!! LOL
> 
> But, if it really does a nice job printing on dark shirts, it may be worth it. It is certainly cheaper to use vinyl or screenprint for darks but if you need full color & low volume, the $5 may not be so bad if the print quality is comparable to say DTG w/ white ink.
> 
> A DTG print on dark shirts with white ink can cost upwards of $5 per shirt depending on design size when you include ink & pretreatment cost (not to mention the time factor which I believe WOW might be a faster process).


hey john is that $5 with the shirt or just the ink by itself? what machine do u have?


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## tim3560 (Jan 7, 2007)

no, he said that was just the transfer paper with no shirt or ink or in dtg land, it would equal around $5 for the ink. No shirt.


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## Gunslinger (Aug 3, 2007)

Debz is waiting at the Long Beach airport. Planes were delayed in Salt Lake City, about an hour. So, hopefully, she will make it back here before dark (she refuses to drive in the dark, so if she can't make her hop in Salt Lake on time, she will likely stay at a motel for another night).

I didn't ask about the hand, Chani. But they did hand out a printed sample, so as soon as I get it in my hands, I will post and let y'all know (I wanna do wash tests, as well).


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## Rodney (Nov 3, 2004)

prometheus said:


> One thing I would really like to see is side by side comparisons of all the technologies. I'm not sure if it has been mentioned already, but one obvious difference would be that there is not really a good "dark" transfer solution. I think the DTG beats it hands down in this case.
> 
> When I went to the ISS show, I think I got a sample of the Fast T-Jet 3 on a black shirt, and after the wash, it was still bright and vibrant.


I've been looking for something like this as well.

We have enough talent on this forum to make it happen  

We could get the same graphic printed on a DTG, dye sub, inkjet transfer, plastisol transfer, laser transfer, vinyl, printed vinyl, on a white t-shirt.

Then the same graphic printed on a dark t-shirt with the different print methods.

Get some good closeup photos taken of each and any other details (cost to print, print time, caveats, etc), then get some wash tests and more photos and then post them up for reference. Make a nice pretty comparison chart.

Something I've been meaning to try to get done for a while to post on t-shirtwiki.


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## prometheus (Oct 19, 2006)

Rodney said:


> I've been looking for something like this as well.
> 
> We have enough talent on this forum to make it happen
> 
> ...


Are you talking about getting the same graphic and spreading it out among different members to print? I never thought of doing it that way. Open source it. Could work.


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## sunnydayz (Jun 22, 2007)

I would definately be willing to help on the dtg side of this, it would be really cool to see all the different methods side by side


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## DAGuide (Oct 2, 2006)

This is something that could be easily done at a trade show with the following caveats:
- The plastisol transfer and the vinyl are going to limit the graphic based on the number of colors with a test sample. Vinyl because the number of colors you can do on one shirt and the time it takes. Plastisol transfers because of all the setup to be done. Limiting the colors will be a determent to the other digital decorating techniques because full color is what separates them out from the others.
- The graphic would probably have to be done as a plastisol transfer in advance. So, it would probably have to be a sample graphic that a plastisol transfer company sends out with a sample pack.
- You will need to have the resolutions (including resolutions for white layers) spelled out in advance. 
- There needs to be no manipulation of the colors of the graphic. Simple put the graphic file into a software program and print. For example, Photoshop does a much better job digitally printing most graphics than Corel.
- The cost can / will vary depending on several factors
+ Direct-to-Garment - whether it is a bulk versus closed cartridge system; which machine is used.
+ Sublimation - which inks are used (ArTainium, SubliJet IQ, TOG,...), which release paper is used, what type of fabric / substrate is it going on, the quality of the substrate (good, premium,...) and such.
+ Transfers - which paper is used (several types of lasers vs several types of inkjet), which inks,...

Also, you will need to keep track of the heat press factors (i.e. time, temperature and pressure). I would recommend using a heat press with a digital pressure guage so that this variable becomes more of a controlled variable.

In addition, you will want to have the same wash test done on all the items. It would be best if you could have a graphic that was mirrored image so you could cut it in half and only wash half of the graphic.

Sounds like a good project, but it could take a lot of work to get all the factors under the same controls. Good luck with the project. Can't wait to see the results.


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## treadhead (Jul 26, 2006)

calijimmy said:


> hey john is that $5 with the shirt or just the ink by itself? what machine do u have?


 
That is just ink and pretreatment cost.....no shirt. But, again, that would be for say a 10" x 10" full coverage design with 1 pass underbase and 2 passes of color...or similar.


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## Gunslinger (Aug 3, 2007)

I still think that is on the high side, and it gets lower buying larger sized bottles of ink ... still nowhere near where we need it to be, compared with more economical Kornit's inks.


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## treadhead (Jul 26, 2006)

Gunslinger said:


> I still think that is on the high side, and it gets lower buying larger sized bottles of ink ... still nowhere near where we need it to be, compared with more economical Kornit's inks.


Yep..the $5 is on the high end of the range. Most designs are not full coverage which also brings it down.

With the new white ink and my recent overhaul...I am getting away with one pass 1440 on the underbase with one or two color passes. Before, I was having to do two underbase passes!!


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## Gunslinger (Aug 3, 2007)

Gawd, tell me about it ... the new stuff is really good. I am either using 1440 one pass, or two 1440x720 passes, depending on the print, shirt color and what I am looking for. Tweaking it is still getting on my nerves ... I tried Dave's tips (cutting the white back from 100% to say 90%), but it didn't help any more than what I was doing in the wizard. Too much, and the white bleeds through the colors ... too little, and the shirt shows.

Now, if you want just white ink text/design on any color shirt ... that I can print out real sweet!


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## the funk (Aug 8, 2007)

DAGuide said:


> - There needs to be no manipulation of the colors of the graphic. Simple put the graphic file into a software program and print. For example, Photoshop does a much better job digitally printing most graphics than Corel.
> quote]
> 
> For us digital printers, we could still get so many different results from one RIP to another, not to mention was the latest release of the RIP, are the current patches installed, what color space was used, etc.
> ...


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## Gunslinger (Aug 3, 2007)

Yeah, you know Justin Walker (running a big fat Kornit) mentioned a white ink-to-ink test, to come up with some cost figure for how much a given print using an underbase would be between Dupont inks and Kornit's. Same problem can be applied, different machines with different RIPs, different print heads, etc.

LOL, I'll tell ya what ... let's all just start a major corporation around a magazine, like Consumer Reports, and buy all the machines and products from every manufacturer. And then, we can test them all side-by-side, with no bias, in a huge facility and publish the results. Forget making t-shirts ... let's cash in on advertising!!!


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## customshirts123 (Jan 20, 2008)

Chani said:


> I'm leaning toward DTG, too, but we don't have anywhere near the funds to buy a commercial DTG machine right now, so we'd need to go the DIY route.
> 
> The reason I'm leaning that way right now is that I'm still not sure what the durability of transfers is yet, including Jet-Pro SofStretch. That, and people's perceptions of transfers.


I spent about 2 months looking at every option out there and I feel the direct to garment is the best way to go. I bought a TJet2 and I am very happy with the quality. I have printed thousands of shirts and haven't had any come back. It is not as easy to get going as heat transfers. It took us a while to figure out all the little tricks. It is not a plug in and start printing system but well worth the learning curve. I paid for my TJet2 in about 6 months working part time. I would suggest that you call a few places that you are considering buying equipment from and ask them to print one of your designs and send you a sample. That's what I did and that answered most of my questions and made it a lot easier to make my decision. As far as budget goes you can come across some great deals on EBAY on used machines and most equipment supliers offer leasing. Good Luck!!!


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## Chani (Jun 18, 2007)

Great advice! When we're ready to start seriously looking I'll keep that in mind! 

Thanks!


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## Gunslinger (Aug 3, 2007)

Chani said:


> That's sort of what I was thinking, too. DTG with White ink isn't exactly cheap.
> 
> My question is: How is the hand on this WOW paper? The self-weeding injet paper that I tried totally failed my expectations, even with their sample image to test with, but also it's hand was HORRIBLE! Worse than thick screenprinting.


Chani, I got the sample on one of those tiny tees companies like to give out. I'll take a before and after pic, when I get to a load of laundry. The hand is no different than other inkjet transfers, sorry no soft hand.


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## Chani (Jun 18, 2007)

Thanks, Michael. That's about what I thought it would be like.  There's just no magic solution for desktop printer transfers.


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## Gunslinger (Aug 3, 2007)

Chani, I am still going through the material Debz brought back from the show. One heat transfer provider had some interesting styles (various companies had new concepts, but I wanna get the product to name correct), that "might" be closer to a softer hand than is typical. I will post back with more, as I get my head around this stuff.


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## Chani (Jun 18, 2007)

Thanks!

I had one person hint to me personally that there might be a new product on the way that might change EVERYONE'S perceptions of dasktop printer transfers. I don't have any more information on that, but you might be able to expand on that once you go through everything you have.


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## Gunslinger (Aug 3, 2007)

Chani ... the transfers Debz looked at (sorry, they gave no samples) were from ArtBrands. They gave out several catalogs and the variety of types of transfers caught my eye. Several claimed a softer hand, so I would check out their site (lotta stuff there), and see if you can snag a sample. What impressed Debz at the demo, was a transfer (all flowers) that puffs up giving a 3D image on the garment. Now, glow-in-the-dark, glitter, foil ... all standard stuff now ... but that was pretty darn cool. If their opaque and other similiar styles truly have a soft-hand ... well, that may even tempt a sworn DTG/Dye Sub guy to the dark side of the transfer force!

They are pre-made designs, mind you, but they do custom work and sell different types of transfer paper.


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## tim3560 (Jan 7, 2007)

Any updates on our side-by-side comparison? Or did it get lost?


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## Chani (Jun 18, 2007)

Oops, I forgot to reply to this a week ago! 

Thanks! I'll check them out! I'm way more interested in custom work, but if they do that, too, I'd like to look into it.


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## fred333 (Jan 25, 2008)

Same here. I love looking at custom work, it gives me ideas.


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## tim3560 (Jan 7, 2007)

Hey Rodney, are we still working on the picture comparison?


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## tim3560 (Jan 7, 2007)

Is that a no?


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## Girlzndollz (Oct 3, 2007)

Rodney said:


> I've been looking for something like this as well.
> 
> We could get the same graphic printed on a DTG, dye sub, inkjet transfer, plastisol transfer, laser transfer, vinyl, printed vinyl, on a white t-shirt.
> 
> ...


I'm only halfway through this thread, so I don't know if you have someone, but if you need an inkjet heat transfer volunteer, I will toss my hat in the ring.


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## ralphe (Sep 25, 2007)

well, my experience has been that transfers always produce a better image and brighter colors with much less mental strain. They cost more, but compared to what I have to do to get a nice print with my three year old t-jet, on an hourly basis, the cost is the same. In other words, a good t-jet print from my first gen equipment will require two passes with differing levels of ink applied either with the epson driver, transparency, or both. This is an art I have learned in order to reproduce peoples faces well, and of no concern with vector based art work.

With the new heat applied materials (ie the kind you can iron on), this advantage holds for ten washings, after which the dtg method is superior, bullet proof in fact, capable of way more than 50 trips to the washer.

Which is why I do both, but if I were doing vector based graphics and had the business to support the cost of dtg, that is the way I would go.


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## positive99 (Feb 4, 2008)

I use to do heat transfer and I still do sometimes whenever I have to do mousepads. Now, I have a dtg printer. I must say that when first printed, the heat transfer is more vibrant in colors and has more detail to it. The DTG is more on the matte side. Now people don't like heat transfer because of the cracking and the fading after a few washes which I totally agree with that's why I bought a dtg printer. The only problem I started having is that people were complaning about the washability of the dtg. I use Dupont ink and it's haven't been very good. I've switched to another ink now and will see if it's better.
Other than that, people like the sound of DTG. The fact that it prints directly on the shirt and that it's of good quality. People want that today. So ya


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