# Let's play a fun game called: count the colors (on a screen printed design :)



## Rodney (Nov 3, 2004)

I've already gotten a color count from a printer, but I know that everyone has their own methods of doing things.

I thought it'd be fun to see *how many colors would you use* to print this design as to best reproduce the image?

PS. This is the winning design in this year's T-ShirtForums T-Shirt Design Contest Extravaganza that just finished up


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## spankthafunk (Apr 9, 2007)

My guess would be 4. CMYK and halftones to reproduce the brownish color and gray.


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## Unik Ink (Nov 21, 2006)

CMYK + spot gray and that mustard yellow color, so 6 screens total.


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## PaulShively (Jun 27, 2011)

I've had clients that would say two or three spot colors, lol, I'd guess five or six though with cmyk involved.


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## dawsonjay (Dec 19, 2009)

you should probably be able to do it with standard 4-color CMYK process, but since it's a natural shirt - I'd go with a 6-color simulated process using three semi-opaque semi-fluorescent base colors, plus black, gray/silver, and an orange/brown.


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## Dan K (Nov 15, 2006)

6-8 colors on our end, simulated process, the more colors we used, the better the final quality of the print - 6 would work, 7 would be better, and 8 spectacular.


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## spankthafunk (Apr 9, 2007)

Dan K what would be the 7th and 8th colors assuming CMY, K, Gray, and Orange-Brown is the first 6?


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## Dan K (Nov 15, 2006)

spankthafunk said:


> Dan K what would be the 7th and 8th colors assuming CMY, K, Gray, and Orange-Brown is the first 6?


Hey Spanky. (Can I call you that?!)

We'd do a _sim process_ sep for _water based_ inks using the following colors:

*Cyan* or some bright blue

*Magenta* or some bright purpley pink color

*Yellow*

*Black*

Yes, those are process colors, or could be, but we would not do a process sep since we'd use these other colors and the process colors would actually act more like spot colors in this particular design.

For a good 6 color sim process print add to the 4 above:

*Grey*

*Gold*

For the better 7 color sim process print add to the 6 above:

*Brown*

Dependent on the shirt color, and/or for the best print I would add to the 7 above:

*White*


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## brice (Mar 10, 2010)

5 - CMYK with highlight whites.


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## spankthafunk (Apr 9, 2007)

Sure can! You wouldn't be the first! Lol

Great explanation Ty!


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## ICSInksAlanN (Mar 9, 2011)

Five.. CMYK + Highlight White I think that should take care of it.


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## red514 (Jul 21, 2009)

I agree 8 including underbase


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## DKgrafix (Aug 13, 2008)

7

CMYK with Gray, Gold and underbase


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## red514 (Jul 21, 2009)

adding a highlight white (even tho it's on a light ground) will add some detail and color tones.


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## DCans (Nov 21, 2009)

I think that I'd try that with 7 and and a white highlight.


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## tpitman (Jul 30, 2007)

I think you're gonna need a neon pink to make that pink pop. At least as a spot color over process, and some white since that's a natural shirt.


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## mikelmorgan (Nov 1, 2008)

6 colors, blue, pink, yellow, black, gold, gray and hi-lite white. I don't think an under is needed for a natural shirt.


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## Rodney (Nov 3, 2004)

tpitman said:


> I think you're gonna need a neon pink to make that pink pop. At least as a spot color over process, and some white since that's a natural shirt.


Interesting. I thought of it more as a magenta, but I do see the pink now.


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## red514 (Jul 21, 2009)

mikelmorgan said:


> 6 colors, blue, pink, yellow, black, gold, gray and hi-lite white. I don't think an under is needed for a natural shirt.


i agree an underbase isn't needed but i find it does improve the print even on a white ground, adding a bit more detail and giving the bright colors more 'pop'. the detail i'm mentioning is due to light reflecting of the ink. I find that ink on ground has a slightly matt finish while ink printed over a thin underbase gives the ink some shine. this can be a really good effect on certain design especially when bright colors are used.


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## Rodney (Nov 3, 2004)

Since this was an oversized design, I decided to go with Spreading Ink on this order. 

I thought it'd be neat to get his perspective on how he came up with his color count (9 ), so I asked Dave @spreadingink to share his thought process here as well.


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## spreadingink (Feb 10, 2008)

Thanks for the lead in Rodney and for the vote of confidence - we are really excited to be producing this print for you!

When asked about this design I originally thought no more than 6 colors as well and it CAN be done with six colors, but upon receipt of this art and looking at it in great detail I felt to get the best overall match it would be best to go with simulated process or spot process and to match as perfectly as possible I count 9 colors. 

That said, there are ways to reproduce with less colors as several of the color choices I picked could have been done by simply printing black halftones over one of the other colors to produce a few of the less critical colors with shading. 

I guess my thought process was to try to reproduce with as an exact an image as possible to the original art. 

CYMK could surely do a good job with the print and while I considered doing the print this way I have been less than satisfied with the CYMK water base/discharge inks that are available out there - we have done CYMK prints using these inks that have turned out well, but as all know CYMK requires critical seps which have been adjusted for gains properly and some colors while possible with CYMK are very hard to dial in without using spot plates - namely browns and the gold in this design I felt may be problematic.

Additionally there is less body in water base inks which can create addtitional issues in a CYMK water base print due to a greater degree of spread in the halftones which can contribute to gain and cause harder colors to be more difficult to dial in using this process. For these reasons I felt that doing the job sim-process would probably be better and contribute to this producing with the closest match to the original art with the least amount of overall production time wrapped up in the job.

With this in mind I feel that to get the closest overall match to the original artwork a 9 color sim process print would be best for this design. Can it be done with less - yes - but many times printers will print less colors simply because of one of two reasons - and neither have anything to do with matching the art as close as it can be printed:
1. Customer budget - this is often why a printer will chose to print something with less color and most of the time we are all pretty good at reducing colors in a print and still matching the original art very closely.
2. Press color limitation - the second reason printers often reduce colors as the press(es) they have available to do the job may not have enough color capability to print all of the colors in the art and so often, a black halftone may be used to darken a color rather than printing another shade of blue - for instance - a black halftone will be used to darken an area. 

All of these are perfectly acceptable methods, but if you have the color capability to print 9 colors in a design and see 9 then the only reason not to print the colors in the art revert back to reason 1 above. 

Please note that I have not done any separations on the art and when estimating color count I prefer to give the high side of colors rather than the low side - as this allows for flexibility in the separation to match the art as closely as possible. If during the separation I find that I can sep it with less colors and remain true to the art I will do and revised the price point quoted if we print less than originally estimated.

Hope this may be of help in some capacity to those who print or are generally interested.

Thanks!

Dave


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## spreadingink (Feb 10, 2008)

Sorry - I should have put this info in, but the colors I see are: Yellow, 2 Golds, Blue, 2 shades of Magenta, Black, Gray, and White.

Thanks!

Dave


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## spankthafunk (Apr 9, 2007)

Great job! Thank you for the insight!!


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## binki (Jul 16, 2006)

none, dtg it.


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## jsf (Aug 4, 2009)

all 6 colors (CMYK+Grey+Mustard Yellow) on simulated process... All colors will result perfectly vibrant on a white shirt. 

I will not push for the gold ink because the packaging(can) is not the highlight of the design and it may become dominant among other colors. I would suggest to present more with the CMYK colors among others. 

One more thing, it will look good if the CMYK inks will result as glossy wetlook print. Wet fishes and a wet spills.


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## Rodney (Nov 3, 2004)

binki said:


> none, dtg it.


Not really helpful in a thread about screen printing in the screen printing section. But thanks for playing along


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## starchild (Jul 22, 2009)

I would open it up in my Separation Studio program for my basic 9 colors for a simulated process, then go from there.

The green can be sacrificed to bring the colors down to 8 colors without any "significant" loss to image reproduction.

I will also generate a black channel (Sharper Black is used for light shirts in Separation Studio) to replace the white underbase.

So in this order-
Black
Red
Blue
Gold
Purple
Turquoise
Gray
Highlight White

Excalibur's 1800 series will be the ink of choice because it was designed to work with Separation Studio.


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## spreadingink (Feb 10, 2008)

jsf said:


> One more thing, it will look good if the CMYK inks will result as glossy wetlook print. Wet fishes and a wet spills.


I agree that it might be better as a plastisol print or mixed media to provide a sheen to the 'wet' areas as well. Waterbase will not give that look and that was what the customer asked for - what say you Rodney  ?


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## prometheus (Oct 19, 2006)

spreadingink said:


> Thanks for the lead in Rodney and for the vote of confidence - we are really excited to be producing this print for you!
> 
> When asked about this design I originally thought no more than 6 colors as well and it CAN be done with six colors, but upon receipt of this art and looking at it in great detail I felt to get the best overall match it would be best to go with simulated process or spot process and to match as perfectly as possible I count 9 colors.
> 
> ...


So what are the 9 colors?


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## spreadingink (Feb 10, 2008)

prometheus said:


> So what are the 9 colors?


Posted just below the post....

Sorry - I should have put this info in, but the colors I see are: Yellow, 2 Golds, Blue, 2 shades of Magenta, Black, Gray, and White.

Thanks!

Dave


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## EPerezprinting (Jun 29, 2011)

So who is right?


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## EPerezprinting (Jun 29, 2011)

So who is right? I counted 6.


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## red514 (Jul 21, 2009)

EPerezprinting said:


> So who is right? I counted 6.


This was just an exercise to see what others would do, there's no right answer. unless you are SpreadingInk, the one printing the job, who went with 9.


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## red514 (Jul 21, 2009)

spreadingink said:


> Posted just below the post....
> 
> Sorry - I should have put this info in, but the colors I see are: Yellow, 2 Golds, Blue, 2 shades of Magenta, Black, Gray, and White.
> 
> ...


are you including an underbase at all? or is the ground color light enough that it's not needed


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## Dan K (Nov 15, 2006)

EPerezprinting said:


> So who is right?


Nobody is particularly "right" per se, there are numerous ways the design could be printed... The variables, process, amount of colors would all be finally determined by the printers skills and capacity and the customers budget and wishes for the final outcome...


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## EPerezprinting (Jun 29, 2011)

Oh okay I see. Well it sounds like you guys know your stuff. Allow me to take advantage of your knowledge. I have a small operation and i just recently moved into a small warehouse space with a office front. And i need to order plastisol paint and I dont know the difference between wet-on-wet or any of that stuff. Im starting to feel overwhelmed any suggestions?


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## spreadingink (Feb 10, 2008)

red514 said:


> are you including an underbase at all? or is the ground color light enough that it's not needed


I don't think it is going to be needed, but I don't know 100% for sure which shirt will be used yet. Once known, I may opt for a base if it was plastisol, but the request was for dishcarge or water base and in that case on a natural shirt no base should be needed.

As far as who is right - (someone asked that question) - there is no right answer and it can be done with several ways - many of which various printers have discussed here - none are 'correct' or 'incorrect'. In the end, the goal is to give the best possible reproduction and how one printer would do that vs. another will vary with their experience and their equipment capabilities - keeping in mind the customer's budget. 

Thanks,

Dave


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## Rodney (Nov 3, 2004)

EPerezprinting said:


> Oh okay I see. Well it sounds like you guys know your stuff. Allow me to take advantage of your knowledge. I have a small operation and i just recently moved into a small warehouse space with a office front. And i need to order plastisol paint and I dont know the difference between wet-on-wet or any of that stuff. Im starting to feel overwhelmed any suggestions?


Please feel free to start a new topic for your separate question


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## Rodney (Nov 3, 2004)

spreadingink said:


> I agree that it might be better as a plastisol print or mixed media to provide a sheen to the 'wet' areas as well


Tell me more about this "mixed media" possibility  Sounds interesting...

I guess the spills would look cool if they were "wet"/glossy looking?


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## spreadingink (Feb 10, 2008)

Hi Rodney,

There would be several options - we could do the focal point of the design (can/sardines and spills) in plastisol with possibly a clear gel on the areas designated to be 'wet' and the rest of the background in water base....

Advantages are as follows: 
1. Plastisol will be more vibrant (in general) than water base or discharge)
2. Clear gel will give you a very wet look to the areas it over prints.

Disadvantages:
1. There will be some hand (feel) to the print and the areas with a gel would have more hand than those without.

It would be fun to do - ultimately, it is up to you though - I'll through in the extra color/screen to do the gel if you decide you'd like to go this route.

Give me a call if you would like to discuss further.

Dave


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## jsf (Aug 4, 2009)

6 colors are basic and can obviously be seen in the design. I'll give credits to Dave having it atleast 9 colors... in screen printing doing it with more colors will be best presented. 

In my point of view, how much fun can we get presenting the design to be more appreciated and I think that giving effect to the print will most likely be considered. 

Mixed media = "GO"


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## Rodney (Nov 3, 2004)

> we could do the focal point of the design (can/sardines and spills) in plastisol with possibly a clear gel on the areas designated to be 'wet' and the rest of the background in water base....


I think that would look great! Or maybe just the wet "drip" areas in plastisol/clear gel.


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## spreadingink (Feb 10, 2008)

Rodney said:


> I think that would look great! Or maybe just the wet "drip" areas in plastisol/clear gel.


Hi Rodney,

Either will work - let me look at the design again tonight and I'll come back to you with some options in the morning. In the end, you are the customer though and we will work to execute your vision!

Thanks,

Dave


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## Dan K (Nov 15, 2006)

Rodney - you didn't ask, but my two cents would be to go with the clear gloss gel, whether you print water base or plastisol under it. It is really the clearest glossiest gelliest thing, and it would look excellent over those bright colors.


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## Rodney (Nov 3, 2004)

Dan K said:


> Rodney - you didn't ask, but my two cents would be to go with the clear gloss gel, whether you print water base or plastisol under it. It is really the clearest glossiest gelliest thing, and it would look excellent over those bright colors.


Thanks Dan, I definitely appreciate the input! Did you mean the clear gel over just the focal point in the design and not the 100% Natural sort of background text?

I don't think I've seen clear gel printed (or maybe I have but didn't realize it).


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## Dan K (Nov 15, 2006)

Rodney said:


> Thanks Dan, I definitely appreciate the input! Did you mean the clear gel over just the focal point in the design and not the 100% Natural sort of background text?
> 
> I don't think I've seen clear gel printed (or maybe I have but didn't realize it).


Yeah, it's not the kind of thing you want physically or aesthetically over the whole design, the picture in my mind was always just over the dripping bright colors, def not over the natural colors or whole design... You may have seen some gel at my shop, if you can make it out, I would be happy to show you some, I have some samples in the office... We used it in a water base print for Currency Clothing, the image was a womans face and it was just like a black and greyscale print, except she had big bright red lips with bright red lipstick, I suggested printing gel on the lips to make them pop even more and look like a shiny coat of new lipstick, and it really popped...

Also, don't know if you saw it, but that huge high density circle logo that we printed and entered in ISS last year, that was like 20-30 layers of clear gloss gel with different colors of foil haphazardly applied between each different layer of ink...


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## Dan K (Nov 15, 2006)

Let's clarify that a little - gel over the 4 CMYK looking colors, not the text or gold or yellow tin portions, just those bright CMYK colors (including the black).


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## binki (Jul 16, 2006)

Rodney said:


> Not really helpful in a thread about screen printing in the screen printing section. But thanks for playing along


why not have your dtg challenge winner print it rather than screen print it. justin would do a great job with something like this.


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## Rodney (Nov 3, 2004)

binki said:


> why not have your dtg challenge winner print it rather than screen print it. justin would do a great job with something like this.


DTG is just not cost effective at high quantities of the same design.

Plus, if with screen printing I can do cool effects like no hand on part of the design and a glossy wet look on other parts of the design.

I actually do weigh the options each year to decide whether or not the design would be better as a DTG or screen print, but screen print won out this year 

This will probably be the front design that the DTG printers will use for next year's DTG Battle Royale though. So the DTG folks will definitely have their chances to take a crack at it.


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## spreadingink (Feb 10, 2008)

Hi Rodney,

I agree with Dan and I was only envisioning the gel over the drips and the fish and the goop they are sitting in on the inside of the can - not the can or any other elements as I think it would be too much and take away from the design. You could do the drips only as well, but then I think you risk isolating the fish from being the focal point and they are the main focal point of the whole design.

That's my .02 on the subject - any of it is do-able though!

Hope this helps and clarifies what my thoughts on using a gel were.

I think maybe doing the rest of the can and in plastisol and then the background wording in water base - this way the can is in the same medium (clear gel is a plastisol) as the drips and fish without the gel and the background in a water based medium.

Thanks,

Dave


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## red514 (Jul 21, 2009)

spreadingink said:


> I think maybe doing the rest of the can and in plastisol and then the background wording in water base - this way the can is in the same medium (clear gel is a plastisol) as the drips and fish without the gel and the background in a water based medium.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Dave


great idea! that will give a very nice look to the print


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## jsf (Aug 4, 2009)

spreadingink said:


> Hi Rodney,
> 
> I agree with Dan and I was only envisioning the gel over the drips and the fish and the goop they are sitting in on the inside of the can - not the can or any other elements as I think it would be too much and take away from the design. You could do the drips only as well, but then I think you risk isolating the fish from being the focal point and they are the main focal point of the whole design.
> 
> ...



Question. How thick is this clear gel after printing? Is it embossed thick?


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## Dan K (Nov 15, 2006)

jsf said:


> Question. How thick is this clear gel after printing? Is it embossed thick?


About as thick as a standard plastisol print on an underbase... You can stack it up and do more, but that's all you need...


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## spreadingink (Feb 10, 2008)

You can print clear gel just like a plastisol or print it through a cap film screen to get a thicker coverage. I personally think printing it through a cap film of about 300 - 350 mm would be perfect as it will give it a little bit of body and help the drips stand up a bit from the design, but you can just print it on top through a standard screen prep to give a shine.

Dave


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## red514 (Jul 21, 2009)

spreadingink said:


> but you can just print it on top through a standard screen prep to give a shine.


I've done a few prints like this using clear base instead of gel. it gives a nice varnish look.


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## prometheus (Oct 19, 2006)

Rodney said:


> This will probably be the front design that the DTG printers will use for next year's DTG Battle Royale though. So the DTG folks will definitely have their chances to take a crack at it.


Not to shift from the thread topic, but what is the "DTG Battle Royale"?


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## Rodney (Nov 3, 2004)

prometheus said:


> Not to shift from the thread topic, but what is the "DTG Battle Royale"?


@prometheus The details about the this year's DTG that we had are here: http://www.t-shirtforums.com/dtg-battle-royale/t138434.html

You can see the winners (and cool WWF style belt I had made up for the competition here): http://www.t-shirtforums.com/dtg-battle-royale/t153529.html


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## SuperDave512 (Oct 12, 2011)

I would do 6 spot colors, and would probably stay away from cmyk entirely. Fluorescent Magenta, Yellow, Bright Blue, Black, a gray for the shadow text, and a mustard spot color for the can. Of course that is NOT my print order, lol.


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