# DTG and fading ink.



## MotoskinGraphix (Apr 28, 2006)

I recently farmed out an order of 20 tees DTG printed front and back. The printing was done on a brother DTG unit, specific model I do not know. The shirts were then heat pressed as I believe is the typical method of production. The shirts were 100% cotton white tees. I had the company do a couple sample shirts for my own personal use.

After about 4 wash cycles shirts look faded like over a years worth of wash cycles. Is this normal with DTG? The blacks have zero intensity and there is nothing crisp about the colors at all. I am wondering if there is a current work around for this problem and if its common? I really cant sell shirts that fade so quickly.

What are your thoughts?


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## selzler (Apr 4, 2007)

I haven't done or bought any that I know of. I have been thinking of but one so I want to see what the people here have to say about your problem.


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## jppurdon (Jul 4, 2007)

Hey David;
I do dtg printing with a kiosk we hit our shirts twice for a brighter and more vivid color. We have shirts out there for almost a year and they look as good today as the day we did them. It could be in the curing process, or maybe just not good printing to star with. I have a couple schools and a couple of bars that wear my shirts and havn't had any complaints about fading. Just to let you know!!


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## martinwoods (Jul 20, 2006)

I have the Brother printer and I have washed my personal shirts (1 in particular for that reason) I have my cabin on it and it looks as good as the day I printed it. It is a photo of a log cabin on a white shirt and has been washed at least 75 times in bleach and warm/hot water and no fading. I do not take any special care on the shirts when washing either as far as turning inside out etc. Of course I have not had any fading on any of the shirts

Not sure what the problem would be


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## printerguy (Dec 26, 2006)

MotoskinGraphix said:


> I recently farmed out an order of 20 tees DTG printed front and back. The printing was done on a brother DTG unit, specific model I do not know. The shirts were then heat pressed as I believe is the typical method of production. The shirts were 100% cotton white tees. I had the company do a couple sample shirts for my own personal use.
> 
> After about 4 wash cycles shirts look faded like over a years worth of wash cycles. Is this normal with DTG? The blacks have zero intensity and there is nothing crisp about the colors at all. I am wondering if there is a current work around for this problem and if its common? I really cant sell shirts that fade so quickly.
> 
> What are your thoughts?



Whoever printed the shirts may not have heat pressed them long enough or hot enough. Being water-based, the ink could even air dry but the washability is achieved by proper heat setting of the ink.

There are also a few Brother owners using the new US Screen 'FastColor' pretreatment to get brighter prints and improved washability.


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## HuMJohn (Dec 6, 2006)

MotoskinGraphix said:


> I recently farmed out an order of 20 tees DTG printed front and back. The printing was done on a brother DTG unit, specific model I do not know. The shirts were then heat pressed as I believe is the typical method of production. The shirts were 100% cotton white tees. I had the company do a couple sample shirts for my own personal use.
> 
> After about 4 wash cycles shirts look faded like over a years worth of wash cycles. Is this normal with DTG? The blacks have zero intensity and there is nothing crisp about the colors at all. I am wondering if there is a current work around for this problem and if its common? I really cant sell shirts that fade so quickly.
> 
> What are your thoughts?


I hope you did *NOT* wash them in hot water and use chlorine bleach. Once the shirts are printed, because of the inks, they are no longer considered "white" shirts. You have to leave the bleach and hot water alone and use warm or cold water to wash them and no chlorine bleach.


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## csquared (Sep 8, 2006)

I have heard of some brands of shirts produced in certain countries not holding a print well, this could be your case or like was said before the curing was not done right.


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## allamerican-aeoon (Aug 14, 2007)

*Good Bye fading!*

This is most FQ by users.

1. Ink quality is 1st reason. If you purchase un-respectable companies ink because of the price, they do not have consistency (one day good, someday bad, sample good real order bad)

2. Shirt quality 
Combed cotton is an extremely soft version of cotton made by specially treating the cotton fibers before they are spun into yarn. As a general rule, combed cotton is slightly more expensive than conventional cotton.
Always work. Never fade nor change (stay almost 100%) with our AA ink. We print our company Staff shirt to workers and they wash all the time and look as brand new print. If you have a chance to go to the shows check our uniform. (at least 10-15 times washed)

3. Skill of curing. Recommended time and temp' are very important. Almost every digital printer users are believing that their Heat transfer temp' is accurate (because it is digital read out or etc) but that is 100% false. Check your real temp' by gage (we sell for $35?). Hand on this temp gage and check your real temp'. Timing is also very important. If you do not own digital heat press (strongly recommend Auto open $1000-$2500) do something for accurate timing. Longer is worse news than shorter.

If you follow above 3, you will never have a fade problem.


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## akaratemom (Feb 20, 2007)

I have a Brother printer. My shirts hold up very well. We do events and when I see people that bought shirts over a year ago, they are still very happy. So much so that they walk around and tell other people about the shirts and help sell them. I think they were not cured properly.


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## Mistewoods (Jul 7, 2007)

*Re: Good Bye fading!*

_1. Ink quality is 1st reason. If you purchase un-respectable companies ink because of the price, they do not have consistency (one day good, someday bad, sample good real order bad)_

The ink quality is an interesting point. 

It is commonly complained and wash testing has proven that DuPont- which is a highly respected name and is currently sold by most of the major manufacturers and distributors - and is a higher priced ink- 

*fades* more than several other inksets. Reports that fading can be minimized by tripling the cure time and lowering the temp are helpful - but it sure slows down production times.

So price or even big name do not guarantee a quality inkset.

Curing procedure is very important to water based inks as a combination of heat temp and evaporation must occur for complete curing. One rule of thumb I have heard stated ... " if you see significant vapors still coming off of the shirt- it isn't cured"


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## allamerican-aeoon (Aug 14, 2007)

akaratemom said:


> I have a Brother printer. My shirts hold up very well. We do events and when I see people that bought shirts over a year ago, they are still very happy. So much so that they walk around and tell other people about the shirts and help sell them. I think they were not cured properly.


You may a very lucky person but if you ask Brother people they will say same thing as I did.
When others pay $280-300/liter you are paying $880 per Liter, it better work two and a half times better but is it?


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## allamerican-aeoon (Aug 14, 2007)

*Re: Good Bye fading!*



Mistewoods said:


> _1. Ink quality is 1st reason. If you purchase un-respectable companies ink because of the price, they do not have consistency (one day good, someday bad, sample good real order bad)_
> 
> The ink quality is an interesting point.
> 
> ...


Hello dear Mistewoods, Happy new year to you! It is just my opinion and my understanding from mfgs not a debating. I am worry.
1. DuPont ink: Come a long way now (much better than beginning) and they have their consistency, either good or bad. So user can predict the results. Some are printing twice or use Higher DPI ---etc. AA ink is not DuPont ink.
2. Small ink mfg do not have good equipments to grind pigment at smallest level and it does often makes clog cause (I test many Chinese inks, EU's --etc) and sacrificed many print-head, one day good next batch bad, color bright and dull)
3. Ink curing: Once all molecule cured well, they will not changing character anymore but burn out (high temp) or just staywarm (lower temp)


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## MotoskinGraphix (Apr 28, 2006)

My sample shirts were Hanes Beefy Tees. The local company that did the printing was an Embroidme franchise. All the equipment in the shop is less than 6 mths. old. The heatpress was a Hix 16x20 clamshell. I am guessing the lack of experience my have played the major role.

My horror was in the fact that I had just supplied an order of two sided tees to the head of our local soccer league. Having personally dealt with plastisol transfers for a few years now and understanding washing cycles of course no bleach or hot water and inside out the first time round.

The shirts looked great when delivered and I love the hand. I thought I had read on another thread about some sort of pre-treatment specifically for white shirts because of my exact problem. Seems most of you DTG folks are quite happy with your results but in another breath many are not.

I like DTG but wasnt happy with my first shirt samples.


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## zhenjie (Aug 27, 2006)

You might like to test if its fibrillation causing the faded look. I do what I call a 'scratch test'. Just use your nail and scratch a part of the print, if it started lifting the fibres and makes the print look faded you might have your culrpit.


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## sunnydayz (Jun 22, 2007)

The pretreatment you are talking about is fastcolor and it does work well.


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## JPD (Nov 8, 2006)

I try to avoid Hanes Beefy-T's at all cost. They are ringspung, which is not a good match with DTG (IMO). I use the Hanes Authentic-T instead, which is basically the same shirt but not ringspung. At 720x720 DCMYK, or 360x360 (2-pass), the washability is excellent (R&H Inks).

Sorry this happened to you, David.

Eric


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## TSW2005 (Jul 28, 2006)

Someone mentioned that "longer" cure time is worse than "shorter".
Can someone explain?
I use a 720x720 typically on white tee's only and cure them on a Knight for 2 min and 50 sec at 335 (very light pressure, actually sits just above tee). Still have wash issues. 

Am I curing to long?


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## the funk (Aug 8, 2007)

^ Could be to long.

Ultimately, I believe cure times are going to depend on the image (size, full coverage vs. partial coverage, etc.)

Like Michele said, if vapors are still coming out, its probably not done yet. To add to that, if the ink doesnt feel dry, its probably not. Just my rule of thumb.

As far as what is to long, I will leave that to someone who knows the exact scientific answer...but I could see how longer is not better.


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## csquared (Sep 8, 2006)

is the ink getting enough heat with the press not actually touching the shirt?


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## the funk (Aug 8, 2007)

I have heard some others using a tunnel dryer for dtg and getting great results, but I think their temps are higher than us on the press.


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## sunnydayz (Jun 22, 2007)

If you are letting your press hover above the garment and not actually pressing to cure, you will need higher heat for longer time.


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## printerguy (Dec 26, 2006)

csquared said:


> is the ink getting enough heat with the press not actually touching the shirt?



A heat press works on contact heat. The heat platen does not radiate heat. It transmits heat only when it is in physical contact with the substrate. So if you suspend the heat press heat platen over the shirt you will not heat it properly. You have to have some pressure set on the heat press so that the heat platen strongly contacts the surface of the shirts. Otherwise you will not heat set the ink to the temperature it needs to have.

Electric conveyor dryers use infrared heating panels. These do radiate out heat. Gas conveyor dryers heat the substrate with hot air. Either would work fine in heat setting direct to garment ink with the exception of white ink. White ink seems to require the pressure applied by a heat press to achieve the best look and wash fastness. That being said, US Screen was drying their Fast T-Jet dark sample shirts through an electric conveyor dryer at the Long Beach ISS show and it seemed to work fine.


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## TSW2005 (Jul 28, 2006)

I have read on here AND been told that you need very light pressure so that the water can get out of the ink. (Hence why it is actually touching but just over the shirt like i was told). 

How much pressure is enough or not enough pressure?

And does anyone get good wash results without ANY pretreatment?
Im talking about light garments with no white ink.


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## DAGuide (Oct 2, 2006)

printerguy said:


> A heat press works on contact heat. The heat platen does not radiate heat. It transmits heat only when it is in physical contact with the substrate. So if you suspend the heat press heat platen over the shirt you will not heat it properly. You have to have some pressure set on the heat press so that the heat platen strongly contacts the surface of the shirts. Otherwise you will not heat set the ink to the temperature it needs to have.
> 
> Electric conveyor dryers use infrared heating panels. These do radiate out heat. Gas conveyor dryers heat the substrate with hot air. Either would work fine in heat setting direct to garment ink with the exception of white ink. White ink seems to require the pressure applied by a heat press to achieve the best look and wash fastness. That being said, US Screen was drying their Fast T-Jet dark sample shirts through an electric conveyor dryer at the Long Beach ISS show and it seemed to work fine.


I was told by several people walking the Long Beach Show that US Screen was doing "spot curing" with a heat press on dark shirts and then moving them over to the Hix conveyor dryer for the final cure. If this is correct, they would still be using the heat press for the pressure part. I am not a fan of having to use two different machines to cure a shirt. Seems like twice the work.


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## printerguy (Dec 26, 2006)

DAGuide said:


> I was told by several people walking the Long Beach Show that US Screen was doing "spot curing" with a heat press on dark shirts and then moving them over to the Hix conveyor dryer for the final cure. If this is correct, they would still be using the heat press for the pressure part. I am not a fan of having to use two different machines to cure a shirt. Seems like twice the work.



US Screen was using their Autotreat machine to apply pretreatment to dark shirts and then using a heat press to press the pretreatment. I imagine that is probably what those people saw. The Blazer Express printers that were on the far side of their booth were using heat presses only after printing. The Blazer Pro printers that were on the other side right by the conveyor dryer were drying their prints through the conveyor dryer only. That is the only drying method I saw them using for the Blazer Pro printers throughout the 3 days of the show. I took some sample shirts home that were dried by the conveyor dryer and both the white and black shirts have been washing great.


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## dan1942 (Jul 1, 2007)

Do you remember what type of conveyor dryer they were using? also what length was it.


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## MotoskinGraphix (Apr 28, 2006)

This is all great info and I see there are still questions as to proper heat setting. I am interested in DTG but wont farm out any other orders until I know exactly what a proper end result could and should be. It was a learning experience for me and something I wanted to know. I hope the technology keeps advancing and am sure it will offer better results with time. I know some of you are hitting the mark and some are fine tuning the process. Fading DTG ink on white shirts is what this post is all about and my experience with a local printer.

Proper heat setting seems like the easiest problem to solve with this technology. I think my local vendor just didnt have enough experience.


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## Mistewoods (Jul 7, 2007)

It does seem it would be easy to solve, but , for example the original recommendations from some of the distributors for DuPont was 360 degrees for 60 seconds light pressure.

One of the current recommendations is 335 for 180 seconds. 

That is a big range of variables to experiment within. If the manufacturer of the ink does not publish more accurate recommendations, or the distributor does not do thorough research fo their own to publish their findings- the dtg owner is left trying to sort it out on their own.


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## MotoskinGraphix (Apr 28, 2006)

Mistewoods said:


> It does seem it would be easy to solve, but , for example the original recommendations from some of the distributors for DuPont was 360 degrees for 60 seconds light pressure.
> 
> One of the current recommendations is 335 for 180 seconds.
> 
> That is a big range of variables to experiment within. If the manufacturer of the ink does not publish more accurate recommendations, or the distributor does not do thorough research fo their own to publish their findings- the dtg owner is left trying to sort it out on their own.


I think if the DTG owner spent thousands of dollars for the technology. heat sealing the inks should and would be a lesson learned simply enough. Experiment and sample before you actually sell anything. Three minutes under a heatpress seems like an eternity for removing moisture. Does it really take that long? Do DTG printers remove shirt moisture before actually printing or does that factor into printing at all?


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## JPD (Nov 8, 2006)

Because we live near the beach, we always pre-press for a few seconds, then print. Besides, the released steam does wonders to open my pores so I get a mini-facial every time the clam shell opens!! 

Eric


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## MotoskinGraphix (Apr 28, 2006)

JPD said:


> Because we live near the beach, we always pre-press for a few seconds, then print. Besides, the released steam does wonders to open my pores so I get a mini-facial every time the clam shell opens!!
> 
> Eric


I live in Houston and we have the same humidity problems. I do plastisol transfers and pre-press everything.


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## Mistewoods (Jul 7, 2007)

We live in a high desert. Our shirts cure a bit more quickly than the recommended times. We did take the time back a year and a half ago to thoroughly wash test - and it pays off with every order!


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## JPD (Nov 8, 2006)

Trial and error, basing it off the ink manufacturer's recommendations, IS the best way to go. We did a lot of testing before we found what works for us.

Eric


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## Robin (Aug 28, 2006)

There is some great advice here!

As fars as the hanes beefy t's, those are the ones that have held up the best, and edges of the images are crisper.

You shouldnt get any fading at all. Even with bleaching. 

Sometimes the fabric will fluff up and make the image look like it is faded, but if you iron with a very hot iron, it brings the image back up nicely.

When I press after printing, I keep my heat press at 365 and press for 30seconds.


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## Robin (Aug 28, 2006)

TSW2005 said:


> I have read on here AND been told that you need very light pressure so that the water can get out of the ink. (Hence why it is actually touching but just over the shirt like i was told).


with the brother, I was told medium pressure. I have it at medium, and havent had any issues at all.


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