# Too much pressure or Screen mesh too high?



## mpls_t (Aug 13, 2007)

Hello guys/gals..
I just had a GREAT first run with Blacks on heather shirts. It was my first run and It passed the wash/stretch test! Im stoked!

Now for my issue. Im doing the same design on black... yes .. White Ink.. Union Maxopake White... same screen..

Here are my specs:
110 Mesh
70 Dur Squeegee
Union Maxopake White
100% Cotton Black T
1/8 off contact

Even after a p/f/p/f run, the image still looks very light. Now I've noticed that the white ink is very very thick, but the Union Ink handbook said that I should be fine with 110. Im thinking I should use 85 mesh count to get more inks layed down?

Also, I may be using too much force, that is what my ink representative told me. So do you guys put alot of force down after the flood stroke or do you guys just do flood the design then use minimal pressure to lay the ink down? I used ALOT of force, and come to think of it, maybe that is the problem why Im not getting a thick white?

Well Im at work right now and Im going to try it again once I get home. But will use less force.

Any comments or suggestions are welcomed.


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## macmiller (Jul 23, 2007)

how long are you flashing? if it's still a little wet it's then just putting wet on wet. i'm probably guilty of too much pressure, but white's thick so you need a little too much than not enough to get a smooth print (not "hairy")


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## mpls_t (Aug 13, 2007)

Flashing until it doesnt stick to my fingers... not a Ful lcure.. just enough so the ink is still a little damp but not sticking to my fingers when I tough it..

And yeah its thick.. my freakin arms hurt from trying to stir that damn ink.. lol..


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## mpls_t (Aug 13, 2007)

I just tried it again and no luck.. jesus, the ink is soooo thick even after stirring it for 15 minutes straight... I think I need a different white ink. The one I have is just too thick.

Maybe even use some kind of thinner from Union..

Thanks again guys for the replies.


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## macmiller (Jul 23, 2007)

FEEL THE BURRRRRRRNNNNNNNN!!!!!!

i don't know how much maxopake will thin, it maxo-thick.

i'm not sure if the purists will agree, but i push most of my jobs, especially white, way more natural motion, and you can put more pressure down


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## mpls_t (Aug 13, 2007)

Yeah, we'll see. Im going back to the ink store tomorrow to pick up some more inks also.. and might as well pick up the Viscosity Reducer Plus-9000... 

Will report once I figure out how I defeated this obstacle... lol

Roger that, over and out.


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## RichardGreaves (Nov 7, 2006)

mpls_t said:


> I'm going back to the ink store tomorrow to pick up some more inks also.. and might as well pick up the Viscosity Reducer Plus-9000...


Reducing the viscosity defeats the purpose of a heavy pigment load you paid for when you bought Maxopake. Take a piece of photocopy paper and lay it on top of your shirt. That paper is only .026" and it seems to do a good job of being opaque, because it is on the surface of the shirt.

If you press hard on your squeegee ONCE THE STENCIL has touched the shirt, all you will do is bend the squeegee blade, and you are only smashing the ink into the shirt fibers, not depositing a layer of ink on the surface. Downward blade pressure cannot make the ink come out of the stencil.









Here, I've put my watch in a roll of tape to illustrate the futility of blade pressure. Imagine the black watch is black ink and the tape, your stencil. Step on it and make the watch come out, or use a squeegee blade and press as hard as you like - IT ONLY BENDS THE BLADE and the ink is laughing at you. Lift up the tape and leave the ink behind is that actual screen printing action in a way.

A thread on this subject where I made several posts:
http://www.t-shirtforums.com/screen-printing/t24325.html#post144549

* Make some tests:*

Print on a piece of glossy paper, cure it and peel the ink off the paper. Put this ink 'chip' on the shirt next to your inferior direct print and you will see that it is plenty opaque. The difference is you have probably driven the ink into the shirt fibers. The mesh and stencil doesn't know the difference between knit and paper.

The most important thing anyone can do to improve printing on darks is increase mesh tension and stiffer blades. This makes SO MUCH difference that all other methods pale in comparison. 

Try an experimental print with a putty knife (that won't bend and change the printing angle), and won't transfer downward pressure.

Does the mesh pull itself out of the ink film by itself? If not, please increase your mesh tension or raise the off-contact distance so you can use a the squeegee as a mesh tensioning device.


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## mpls_t (Aug 13, 2007)

Hey Richard thanks for the picture.. makes tons of sense.. Your right about the Viscosity Reducer.. it made my maxopake white even worst... although it was smoother... the print wasnt any better.

Question regarding a flood stroke.. When you apply the flood stroke at 80 degrees, do you apply alot of pressure on the flood stroke forcing the ink deposits to go into the mesh? I havent because I have been scared that the ink will get pushed through the mesh and drip onto the shirt below. So all this time I havent been pushing the ink through the screen mesh, I've just been gently spreading it over the screen, and not into the screen mesh.

Im going to attempt this again tonight as well.. thanks for the information, it looks like my approach was off.


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## RichardGreaves (Nov 7, 2006)

Scrape the ink into the holes with the flood stroke and press as hard as you need to - to clean the inside of the screen - no ink covering the image of stencil.

I love that zither sound as I flood or print. It means the angle is right.

 Any ink that you can't stir, will not fall or drip out of the mesh.

Printers flood millions of time each day, every day and plastisol won't drip.


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## mpls_t (Aug 13, 2007)

AAAhh.. that is great to know... All this time my flood strokes have been inks spread over the top of the mesh, not into the mesh... And this is why my white ink prints are worthless... hahaha.

I'll apply what I have learned tonight and report back.. thanks Richard, you've been a great help and cleared up alot of gray areas for me.

P.S. Im to assume that I will not get the perfect white with just 1 pass right? And a P/F/P is normal for Whites on darks?


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## RichardGreaves (Nov 7, 2006)

I think in the 'Stroke' post, I wrote "press hard".


I have never been able to print white without a Print/Flash/Print in 25 years.

Except when I used ULTRA high tension 80 newton mesh and a very fine line design.


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## mpls_t (Aug 13, 2007)

Hey Richard..
Just wanted to let you know that your advice helped out alot. Im laying down some thick whites now,.. thanks alot!

Now... (hehehe).. my next problem is that I lost detail with my 2nd print stroke. I guess its one issue after another. My off contact is good ( About 2 quarters).. the tension is very good, a fresh new screen from Northwest Supply actually, maybe too much ink on the flood stroke?


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## rusty (Feb 9, 2007)

I've ran across the same problems with a flood stroke and/or a p/f/p. I lose some of the fine details that I would normally get with just a standard print stroke.


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## RichardGreaves (Nov 7, 2006)

mpls_t said:


> Hey Richard..
> Just wanted to let you know that your advice helped out alot. Im laying down some thick whites now,.. thanks alot!
> 
> Now... (hehehe).. my next problem is that I lost detail with my 2nd print stroke. I guess its one issue after another. My off contact is good ( About 2 quarters).. the tension is very good, a fresh new screen from Northwest Supply actually, maybe too much ink on the flood stroke?


How are you measuring the tension? If you tension was good, you wouldn't need 2 quarters and your image MIGHT not blurr. 


Take a finger from your right hand and move the skin on the back of your left hand. Hmmm. Now tighten up your left fist, and pull the skin as tight as you can. 

Now, you shouldn't be able to move the same skin on your left hand.

The higher the off-contact distance, the more the mesh is STRETCHED and elongated and it springs back to the shorter distance as it returns to normal.

You have to stretch the mesh to bring it in momentary contact with the shirt. Stretch,, snap back, stretch snap back. After a few prints the image starts to blur. Now - All you have to do is figure out how to charge the customer for cleaning the bottoms of the screens and wiping ink off the platen here it smashed through the knit of the shirt.

As the great screen printer Shakespeare wrote "I must be cruel to be kind". I know it hurts now. You'll feel better later.

Thank you for your kind comments.


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## mpls_t (Aug 13, 2007)

Well one of the reasons why its that high is because I gang-run 4 different designs on a screen because I had a screen company burn my screens (I still cant burn screens.. argh).. so I did 4 designs.. and the design that Im working with is not centered.. its actually near the back of the aluminum screen... so I made it higher so I can get it even... not sure if you get what Im saying.. but its alot more tense near the sides than the middle so I lifted it higher and used more pressure...

Well I basically confused my ownself trying to explain that.. Im going for Round 2 tomorrow.. and post up pics as well...

Thanks again.


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## macmiller (Jul 23, 2007)

rusty said:


> I've ran across the same problems with a flood stroke and/or a p/f/p. I lose some of the fine details that I would normally get with just a standard print stroke.


what mesh count? you could be using too low for the design, and is bleeding out from the flood pass. see how much ink is getting squeezed thru the mesh after you flood.


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## RichardGreaves (Nov 7, 2006)

mpls_t said:


> Well one of the reasons why its that high is because I gang-run 4 different designs on a screen because I had a screen company burn my screens (I still cant burn screens.. argh).. so I did 4 designs.. and the design that Im working with is not centered.. its actually near the back of the aluminum screen... so I made it higher so I can get it even... not sure if you get what Im saying.. but its alot more tense near the sides than the middle so I lifted it higher and used more pressure...


If you gang designs, you save some money in screen making expenses, but lose because ANY design close to the inside edge of the frame will have uneven RESISTANCE to the squeegee blade. 








The mesh will deflect more, the farther away you get from the frame itself. This diver weighs the same, but the board deflects more as he walks further out. The principle of leverage was something we should have studied more in school. This same principle effects squeegee blades. Different lengths, deflect differently.

When the mesh resistance is different, the blade flexes and bends differently to match the resistance. This changes the blade angle in different positions along the blade as you print. It's bent more near the inside edge of the frame and deposits more ink because of the blade shape. This is another reason to use stiff blades to minimize the effect of resistance or blade flex.


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## staned (Feb 25, 2007)

don newman has a series of articles at stretchdevices.com that covers the dynamics of tension and ink hydraulics. but mesh, tension, angle, ink etc. are only supporting cast, the real star of the show is the stencile. i'm hoping richard will fill us in on how this most important step effects the print. not much posted about it. stan


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## RichardGreaves (Nov 7, 2006)

staned said:


> i'm hoping richard will fill us in on how this most important step effects the print.


You know I used to work for Don Newman - in the early days, when the Newman Roller Frame was a new and unaccepted product 1985-6. I am still a HUGE evangelist for high, stable mesh tension.

I work for Ulano now and (I close my eyes as I write this), I think tension influences and effects the print much much more than any stencil. Of course there are lots of variables with stencils, but mesh is alive and elastic and it betrays you as you print. The threads elongate and loose tension continuously as you print. Retensioned mesh is more dimensionally stable and you can print _faster _with low off-contact and high tension. There is very little a stencil can do to speed up printing. If you only had the ability to print another 10 or 20 shirts per hour, you could afford to hire Brad Pitt to make your screens, but there is nothing you can do wth a stencil in the screen room to make a job print faster - except make sure all the screens are the same tension and don't change from beginning to end of a print run and register fast.

Almost any stencil can do any 'textile' printing (which is what this forum is about). The global problem with screen makers especially textile printers is under exposure and the effect it has on printing and durability and stencil removal. Search these forums for 'exposure test' and look how many people are starting to print, but can't measure their exposure.

Like McGuiver or Robinson Caruso, I can get a pretty good print out of any stencil product with any lamp, but it is agonizing to print white ink with any stencil or any mesh count without high tension.

I am happy to field individual questions about this and I know many are not interested or 'need' high tension. If you come to the SGIA show in Orlando Oct 24-27, find me at the Ulano booth.

I hear you writing already, "I don't need a Porsche to go to the grocery store." I agree. BUT when you _do have a printing problem_, and it's Friday night and you're still at the shop at 11pm printing the "job from hell', and not focusing on dancing and girls - you will know what I mean. The fastest way to improve is to raise the tension.


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## staned (Feb 25, 2007)

ok tension is king, how about some coating tips for different meshes


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## RichardGreaves (Nov 7, 2006)

Please read this:
http://www.t-shirtforums.com/screen-printing/t26741.html#post157599

then,

http://www.t-shirtforums.com/screen-printing/t14667.html#post93637










The mesh has holes in it, so emulsion ends up on the OTHER SIDE.
You don't really coat, you
If you don't fill the mesh completely and you turn the screen around and coat the inside, YOU WILL GET AIR BUBBLES.
Nobody can tell you how many coats does the job because there are too many variables.
Use a rounded coater lip (2mm) and coat until the emulsion joins up on the inside of the screen with a glossy smooth finish.
Turn the screen around and push all the emulsion back through the holes and coat until the stencil thickness is to your liking/thickness/proper EOM (emulsion over mesh).
Remember that even the best emulsions are more water than solids and the stencil shrinks and takes on the texture of the mesh as it dries.
It emulsion drips, you to reduce the number of coats you can make o the inside. Make an experiment by coating 2", 4" , 6" 8" 10" and 12" so you can judge the thickness of stencil you want when it dries. You don't have to do this very often.
Make face coats with the sharp edge of a coater.
Thin about capillary film for stencils 96% solids and always smooth as glass on the bottom and only has to evaporate 25% of the water a direct emulsion stencil takes.


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## SakeRonin (Oct 14, 2007)

Wow... I can't wait to get back and see if I can actually print some decent white on dark.
- Heavy flood stroke .................Failed
- tight mesh and proper off contact............Failed
I've only just started silk screening in my basement and I sure am glad I found you guys on this forum. 
Thanks for taking the time to teach.
P.S. Love the watch/tape analogy


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