# Calculations for ink costs for SG 3110DN?



## primodvdprices (May 16, 2013)

Is there a formula for calculating ink costs? I'm using 8.5" x 11" sheet of paper. The image that I'm going to be printing on the sheet is 9.5" x 8". That's roughly about 90% or so. How would I calculate the ink price per sheet?


Any help would be wonderful?


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## engraver99 (Jul 27, 2009)

Sawgrass has an estimated ink cost for this printer on their website someplace.


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## skdave (Apr 11, 2008)

Wide format runs around .25 a square foot. Desktops are much more than that. Paper cost is very high as well.


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## ChemicaUS (Dec 13, 2013)

engraver99 said:


> Sawgrass has an estimated ink cost for this printer on their website someplace.


Here you go. The official answer from Sawgrass is 56¢ for an 8" x 10" image with 50% coverage. 

Sawgrass Technologies - SubliJet-R Sublimation Inks for the Ricoh SG 3110DN System


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## SunState (Mar 5, 2014)

I put brand new ink cartridges in and then kept track or everything I printed until the ink ran out. Amazingly the CMY all ran out within a day of each other but the black was another week. I was very meticulous and calculated everything to the square inch (all my work is square)

The final result was 1 cent a sq inch.

I was very surprised that it was exactly what Conde told me it was, I figured it was more.


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## engraver99 (Jul 27, 2009)

Ink cost is negligable, licensed or unlicensed. Almost Everyone, as I did when first looking at Dye Sub, thought ink cost was important and a big factor in the costs as they are so expensive. I have been an analyst for over 30 years and have tracked and analyzed (licensed and unlicensed) ink costs. It is such a small factor in the overall cost of the product you are sublimating, I have determined it's a waste of time to even care about it. Unlicensed is of course cheaper but certainly does not create much of a gap in pricing from those who would use licensed inks on desktop printers-At least for those in "non-production" environments. Just my conclusions.


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## primodvdprices (May 16, 2013)

Hopefully I can get more than 100 prints before I have to replace the ink. Buying all 4 cartridges will cost over $300.


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## engraver99 (Jul 27, 2009)

Depends what you print. I do alot of state police license plates, key tags, mugs for the troopers and their color is blue so I use the blue up first. I'd say my first go around, I did about 60 mugs, 60 license plates, 100 plaques of varying size, and a bunch of other products that were sold, samples or test products. I was surprised how much I got out of the ink. I would not even get a spare set of ink until you come close to running out since they are dated and they last a pretty long time.


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## skdave (Apr 11, 2008)

SunState said:


> I put brand new ink cartridges in and then kept track or everything I printed until the ink ran out. Amazingly the CMY all ran out within a day of each other but the black was another week. I was very meticulous and calculated everything to the square inch (all my work is square)
> 
> The final result was 1 cent a sq inch.
> 
> I was very surprised that it was exactly what Conde told me it was, I figured it was more.


 Wow that is $1.44 for ink cost a square foot. Almost 3 times what was just stated from Sawgrass.


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## skdave (Apr 11, 2008)

engraver99 said:


> Ink cost is negligable, licensed or unlicensed. Almost Everyone, as I did when first looking at Dye Sub, thought ink cost was important and a big factor in the costs as they are so expensive. I have been an analyst for over 30 years and have tracked and analyzed (licensed and unlicensed) ink costs. It is such a small factor in the overall cost of the product you are sublimating, I have determined it's a waste of time to even care about it. Unlicensed is of course cheaper but certainly does not create much of a gap in pricing from those who would use licensed inks on desktop printers-At least for those in "non-production" environments. Just my conclusions.


Kevin,
Either I'm missing, some huge numbers or your "conclusions" are way OFF. 
.56- $1.44 a square foot for Sawgrass ink cost is HUGE compared to what I spent on wide format ink, which was confirmed this afternoon buy the Coastal TECH. during a service call on my Mutoh 1628. Much less than the reported .25 a square foot. I could never sell 16"x 20" transfers for my advertised price of .99 with Sawgrass ink.


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## engraver99 (Jul 27, 2009)

skdave said:


> Kevin,
> Either I'm missing, some huge numbers or your "conclusions" are way OFF.
> .56- $1.44 a square foot for Sawgrass ink cost is HUGE compared to what I spent on wide format ink, which was confirmed this afternoon buy the Coastal TECH. during a service call on my Mutoh 1628. Much less than the reported .25 a square foot. I could never sell 16"x 20" transfers for my advertised price of .99 with Sawgrass ink.


yes - but you are not doing desktop printing - I am reffering to those who do a few things here and a few things there (not production). For example my 3110 ink came to .57/sq ft and my brand X ink for my Epson 1400 came to .32/sq ft. My point was a .25 difference is not a competition breaker because of the ink prices for those who are doing non-production desktop printing sales. I specifically mentioned desktop because there is no way the desktop market can compete with the wideformat market cost wise. Most here are desktop users and in summary the difference in price for these users using licensed ink vs brand x unlicensed ink is not a real big deal. If you do a license plate and sell it for $20 and your ink cost is 20 cents with brand x ink or 45 cents with sawgrass ink - it's not a big deal to the small desktop printer guy not doing production.

Additionally, selling transers is a whole other ballgame as that would be production work where the only two ingredients is ink and paper so ink prices become extrtemely important in that case. The desktop burner is going to buy small amounts of ink at higher prices than can be had by wideformat guys who buy by the quart or gallon. I am sure I could rival your ink costs using sawgrass inks - I'd just have to buy 3000 liters in each color to do it but my cost per sq. inch would be the same (provided I could use it all) but I'd have 2999.75 liters of each color sitting around until I did.

so again my point was for the desktop non-production guy. The difference in price between licensed and unlicensed ink is nothing to worry about and does not leave you in left field with another desktop competitor.


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## skdave (Apr 11, 2008)

Kevin I now understand your point. Thank you.


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## engraver99 (Jul 27, 2009)

skdave said:


> Kevin I now understand your point. Thank you.


I need 9 shirts I can't get them from Monag for 3 weeks or more - you have them? could you print 6 xl, 3 2xl. Normally I don't send small orders out to print or don't know if you even do small orders. Have sent you a larger order before but don't like to bother production guys with small ones.

if so message me with a price

thanks


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## engraver99 (Jul 27, 2009)

In the begining when I started I worried about ink costs - that's why I wrote a program when I got my secon printer that uses brand x inks. The program calculated all production costs and determined which printer of the 2 to use based on quantity of substrates needed, paper size, print time (Epson took longer to print),% of ink coverage, and a host of other things. It summarized all costs ie paper, ink, labor,etc. that's how I came to the conclusion I did and was sorry I wasted all the time writing the program lol. I lost it when my computer crashed but was an interesting exercise none the less. On a brighter note, It doesn't make much of a difference which one I print it on-less thinking. As a smart cost accountant I should use the cheaper printer but I am lazy and like the speed of the 3110. Sublimation is not my main business but more of an upsale for me - altho it is growing, am still not at a production level with it.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

engraver99 said:


> yes - but you are not doing desktop printing - I am reffering to those who do a few things here and a few things there (not production). For example my 3110 ink came to .57/sq ft and my brand X ink for my Epson 1400 came to .32/sq ft. My point was a .25 difference is not a competition breaker because of the ink prices for those who are doing non-production desktop printing sales. I specifically mentioned desktop because there is no way the desktop market can compete with the wideformat market cost wise. Most here are desktop users and in summary the difference in price for these users using licensed ink vs brand x unlicensed ink is not a real big deal. If you do a license plate and sell it for $20 and your ink cost is 20 cents with brand x ink or 45 cents with sawgrass ink - it's not a big deal to the small desktop printer guy not doing production.
> 
> Additionally, selling transers is a whole other ballgame as that would be production work where the only two ingredients is ink and paper so ink prices become extrtemely important in that case. The desktop burner is going to buy small amounts of ink at higher prices than can be had by wideformat guys who buy by the quart or gallon. I am sure I could rival your ink costs using sawgrass inks - I'd just have to buy 3000 liters in each color to do it but my cost per sq. inch would be the same (provided I could use it all) but I'd have 2999.75 liters of each color sitting around until I did.
> 
> so again my point was for the desktop non-production guy. The difference in price between licensed and unlicensed ink is nothing to worry about and does not leave you in left field with another desktop competitor.


My brand "X" inks with full support and profiles are 1/5 the cost of SG inks for the same volume. Saves me 2 bucks per 13 x 19 print on a tshirt. Sorry but that is a big deal for me, especially if a am doing a decent volume order. Your economics are only valid if you are doing really small stuff. 

If you claim 57 cents per sq ft at what % coverage? That's 144 sq inches. SG is _claiming_ about that same price but for 80 sq inches at 50% coverage.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

engraver99 said:


> In the begining when I started I worried about ink costs - that's why I wrote a program when I got my secon printer that uses brand x inks. The program calculated all production costs and determined which printer of the 2 to use based on quantity of substrates needed, paper size, print time (Epson took longer to print),% of ink coverage, and a host of other things. It summarized all costs ie paper, ink, labor,etc. that's how I came to the conclusion I did and was sorry I wasted all the time writing the program lol. I lost it when my computer crashed but was an interesting exercise none the less. On a brighter note, It doesn't make much of a difference which one I print it on-less thinking. As a smart cost accountant I should use the cheaper printer but I am lazy and like the speed of the 3110. Sublimation is not my main business but more of an upsale for me - altho it is growing, am still not at a production level with it.


Print times mean nothing on most small items, a mug dwell is 3 - 5 minutes but on any Epson I have had a mug size print happens in less than 30 seconds. An 8 x 10 tile takes about 2 minutes to print and then about 8 minutes dwell. While I am waiting on dwell my printer is typically going faster than I can press. So once my dwell is done I already have transfers waiting.

A 13 x 19 tshirt on a WF1100 I don't need the 2880 DPI mode since the tshirt fabric doesn't give the same resolution as a hard substrate. I can print that in 2 minutes at 1440 dpi but the dwell is 60 seconds on the heat press, the time to pull the tshirt out of the bag, link roller it, fix the shirt on the press, place "blow paper" and place a cushion inside, align the transfer, I'm at about 3 minutes per shirt.

I typically get a few transfers head start then start pressing.

All other things being equal I'll take speed, but the real factor in production time is your dwell and handling time.


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## engraver99 (Jul 27, 2009)

mgparrish said:


> My brand "X" inks with full support and profiles are 1/5 the cost of SG inks for the same volume. Saves me 2 bucks per 13 x 19 print on a tshirt. Sorry but that is a big deal for me, especially if a am doing a decent volume order. Your economics are only valid if you are doing really small stuff.
> 
> If you claim 57 cents per sq ft at what % coverage? That's 144 sq inches. SG is _claiming_ about that same price but for 80 sq inches at 50% coverage.


I did mention "non production" and the guy who does a "few things here and there" like I imagine most do here. I'm not sure what a decent volume order is for you but am sure it encompasses more than a "few things here and there" which is why I specifically mentioned non-production. Example guy sells 20 licence plates for $20 each or $400. For ease of math plates cost $5, paper costs $1, everything else but ink is free. For ink we will use sawgrass estimates of .60 (ease of math) for 80sq" @50% (Lic plate is 72sq" + a border for bleed - close enough to 80sq"). So a sawgrass plate would cost $6.60 20 would cost $132. A non sawgrass plate would cost $6.12 (20% of sawgrass ink cost) or $122.40 a diff. of $9.6. So the gross profit on a sawgrass plate is $268 non sawgrass $277.40 NOT a big deal. Now if I were doing 6000 of these a year it becomes important, but I would bet my bottom dollar most people here using sub systems don't do $1000 per year in all they do using desktop printers. I run 2 as you know (you helped me with one) and prob do about 5K in sub work a year - no where near production or approaching it so just using that estimateof $400 in sales which is approx 12 times the example or $4,800 (close enough to $5K) 12 x $10 difference is $120 over the course of $5K in sales - Not a big deal to me but it could be added to the bottom line which is why I said as a smart accountant I should use the cheaper one but don't because the other is faster. How much $'s does speed count for? Additionally, with my program, I didn't have that large of a discrepancy .57 vs .12 mine was roughly half which would reduce the savings to only $60 over the course of $5K in sales - even less of a big deal for me.

If you run large order runs for large graphics like you talk about 13x19 - I would consider those production runs and not fall under the category of doing a few things here and there. It is of my opinion that most here don't operate in a production mode, including myself. If or when I get to that point, Larger volumes of paper, substrates, and ink will all become cheaper due to volume purchasing and would gravitate in that direction but for most I think the difference of roughly $10 on a $400 order doesn't amount to a hill of beans for us low volume people. It certainly shouldn't be enough to scare anyone off about the price of ink and prevent a start-up.

that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

PS I'm not sure what the coverage was as I lost the program when my pc crashed last sept. The only thing i have is license plate .57 vs .32 for ink costs for the 2 printers so that's what I am going by.


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## engraver99 (Jul 27, 2009)

mgparrish said:


> Print times mean nothing on most small items, a mug dwell is 3 - 5 minutes but on any Epson I have had a mug size print happens in less than 30 seconds. An 8 x 10 tile takes about 2 minutes to print and then about 8 minutes dwell. While I am waiting on dwell my printer is typically going faster than I can press. So once my dwell is done I already have transfers waiting.
> 
> A 13 x 19 tshirt on a WF1100 I don't need the 2880 DPI mode since the tshirt fabric doesn't give the same resolution as a hard substrate. I can print that in 2 minutes at 1440 dpi but the dwell is 60 seconds on the heat press, the time to pull the tshirt out of the bag, link roller it, fix the shirt on the press, place "blow paper" and place a cushion inside, align the transfer, I'm at about 3 minutes per shirt.
> 
> ...


yea see your talking production while i'm talking about the rest of us slubs that will do 20 plates here, a dozen shirts there, 10 tiles here, 15 plaques there, some key tags here, some bag tags there - you know those of us who give our machines big breaks and lots of time off (my case - not my main business), others are those starting out, those without business licenses, those that just do certain things. These little here and theres add up but don't constitute production and keeping the machines running.

but your right when doing production and relying on it the bottom line becomes the one to achieve for.


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## engraver99 (Jul 27, 2009)

the other reason I don't use the cheaper printer is I keep my 13x19 paper in that and am too lazy to change it to do the small stuff.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

engraver99 said:


> I did mention "non production" and the guy who does a "few things here and there" like I imagine most do here. I'm not sure what a decent volume order is for you but am sure it encompasses more than a "few things here and there" which is why I specifically mentioned non-production. Example guy sells 20 licence plates for $20 each or $400. For ease of math plates cost $5, paper costs $1, everything else but ink is free. For ink we will use sawgrass estimates of .60 (ease of math) for 80sq" @50% (Lic plate is 72sq" + a border for bleed - close enough to 80sq"). So a sawgrass plate would cost $6.60 20 would cost $132. A non sawgrass plate would cost $6.12 (20% of sawgrass ink cost) or $122.40 a diff. of $9.6. So the gross profit on a sawgrass plate is $268 non sawgrass $277.40 NOT a big deal. Now if I were doing 6000 of these a year it becomes important, *but I would bet my bottom dollar most people here using sub systems don't do $1000 per year in all they do using desktop printers.* I run 2 as you know (you helped me with one) and prob do about 5K in sub work a year - no where near production or approaching it so just using that estimateof $400 in sales which is approx 12 times the example or $4,800 (close enough to $5K) 12 x $10 difference is $120 over the course of $5K in sales - Not a big deal to me but it could be added to the bottom line which is why I said as a smart accountant I should use the cheaper one but don't because the other is faster. How much $'s does speed count for? Additionally, with my program, I didn't have that large of a discrepancy .57 vs .12 mine was roughly half which would reduce the savings to only $60 over the course of $5K in sales - even less of a big deal for me.
> 
> If you run large order runs for large graphics like you talk about 13x19 - I would consider those production runs and not fall under the category of doing a few things here and there. It is of my opinion that most here don't operate in a production mode, including myself. If or when I get to that point, Larger volumes of paper, substrates, and ink will all become cheaper due to volume purchasing and would gravitate in that direction but for most I think the difference of roughly $10 on a $400 order doesn't amount to a hill of beans for us low volume people. It certainly shouldn't be enough to scare anyone off about the price of ink and prevent a start-up.
> 
> ...


I'm home based and dye sub on the side. Most of my items are large enough where ink costs matters. My ink cost savings are around $200 a month give or take. I prefer to put that in my pocket.

$1000 per year in sales is not my idea of success, why even bother making $20 a week. Many come and go in this business, most fail to make back even their initial startup costs as the printer will fail printing so infrequently. If you look at the Ricoh graveyard posts here those became doorstops mainly due to the users not using them enough to keep the ink from expiring in 6 months and killing the printer beyond recovery.

Most successful desktop dyesubbers are either using dye sub in an existing _established _imprinting related business as adjunct sales, typically this isn't home based. Or they are home based and pretty hard to make money just on very small items only, your ink cost matters if a significant amount of your items are 6 x 8 or larger and you are doing any decent amount of business. 

The small trinket stuff alone you cannot do these home based in most cases and make it. I do know a couple of home based people that only do mugs, but they specialize in those and offer them wholesale in volume. 

I do some mugs but most of my stuff is tiles, t-shirts, mousepads, murals, and chromalux panels. A few totes here and there.

I suspect you are basing your perceptions of others business models based on your own, but without an existing sales base of other imprinting products then those looking at starting a business from scratch starting out with dye sub will likely fail to make it unless they are doing tshirts and some other larger photo novelty products where the demand is. Many photo novelty items the ink coverage is more like 75 - 80%.

If you get an entry level SG system like the smaller Ricoh, heat press, and a few items and accessories you are at a $1000 investment and if you only print a $20 item once a week your printer is dead before you get a chance to make your money back. 

You can't really make much of a t-shirt business home based with the smaller printers so you are looking at $2000-$2500 for a larger Ricoh and a 16 x 20 heat press. Then even with that you are taking $2 per shirt out of your pocket and giving to Sawgrass.

While you mention "non-production" volumes then unless you are only needing adjunct sales for an existing business then your thinking is wrong, if you are home based and wanting to make any decent amount of money you need to _quickly_ get from doing a "few items here and there" to production volumes as part of your business plan. Otherwise be like so many that start out here from scratch and fail and the only winner is Sawgrass and Ricoh or Sawgrass and Epson.


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## engraver99 (Jul 27, 2009)

I do agree with you that most won't succeed in the desktop market or any other market for that matter due to many various reasons. It's not easy.

It's not going to stop them from starting tho - this forum is evidenced by that and I love them because I get alot of used equipment cheap when they go.

I come here and it is my opinion the new starters think it's easy and find out it's not. They buy equipment and trodd along getting some sales here and there until the conclusion is reached they can't make it or they just prodd along and don't care, or they do indeed make it and start entering into the production oriented way of thinking. 

Look at the recent threads "I have my online store up-now what?" How do I get customers? Why arent my designs selling? etc. In these cases (which is what I'm talking about the start-up from home desktop sub user), along with those who use it as a support business such as myself the cost difference of ink is not that big of a deal. If your main business and I mean "business" is doing what you do at your level - of course it makes a difference - not disputing that. Most are not in that category here. When I get to where I feel I have to go into production mode (becomes a bigger part of my business), Ink as well as any other costs will be heavily looked at. I do about 5K a year on sub stuff - maybe 5% of my business so the additional saving to me just to use the big printer to get the ink savings is a major pain in the *** if I have to do mugs, or bag tags, just to change out the paper etc. As in any pricing/costing metric there is a breakeven point in production where costs become important. These start-up home based "business's" are not in that class and should not be entered into this kind of pricing/structure module.

You state:

"While you mention "non-production" volumes then unless you are only needing adjunct sales for an existing business then your thinking is wrong"

I did mention it specifically that way for these reasons as stated above - so I am right.

" if you are home based and wanting to make any decent amount of money you need to _quickly_ get from doing a "few items here and there" to production volumes as part of your business plan. Otherwise be like so many that start out here from scratch and fail and the only winner is Sawgrass and Ricoh or Sawgrass and Epson." 

You said it yourself and you are just stating the obvious above. Of course the idea is to make sales and get up quickly with production volume if you are to succeed - that is the nature of any business otherwise you fail. The reason I believe many fail here as well. You can't start with an idea and a small desktop printer and build up clients that fast - it takes time to build a business to get to production type levels unless you exist as a business already or are very lucky or hit a goldmine of an idea. Nobody starts out of the box as a start-up running unless they have money behind them or meet the other 3 circumstances I mentioned. So I stand with my opinion that these types of sellers/users - the cost of ink is negligable to their operations until they reach that level which most never will - which is my point.

On the other hand-like any othe mfg business in the universe that does production levels (such as yourself - you are not the typical home dyesubber represented here and neither am I)- you are correct the cost of ink matters as does every other single ingredient in the cost formula. Heck, you say you save $200 a month just on using the ink you use vs sawgrass ink. I would bet 99% home dye subbers here don't even do $200 in sales a month. It would be like telling them "But you could buy a 1000 bagtags for .75 and save $250 overall instead of just getting them at $1 a piece for a small quantity. It is unimportant to them at this point in time since they don't have the numbers to support that purchase. 

As I stated, If you don't have the volume to support saving the $10 in the example I provided, I doubt the major worry there is ink costs. The saving $10 here or there on a $400 order is not overly important for that operator to start looking at or wish they used a cheaper ink. They should be more concerned with building their business so they could in fact worry about cost savings thru production.

So in summary- for the small time operator (such as myself), new home based start-up users and similar, ink costs are unimportant until you can reach a level where steady business (production) is achieved. At production levels all the metrics change as you can purchase paper in rolls, ink in bulk, substrates in bulk etc. The difference doesn't matter at this point in their existence. This is the whole point behind my statement that it is relatively unimportant for these types of users.

Consider this: If they started out with the cheaper inks - do you really think that will make or break their business? NO - they will still be in the same boat and (in the example I used with the $400 in sales) will just make an extra $10. True savings will not b REALIZED until they hit production mode - so why let the worry of ink costs stop them when first starting out. The only one ink costs should be important to are those that are running production. It shouldn't keep someone from following their dream and starting up to see how far they can bring it. My 2 cents.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

engraver99 said:


> I do agree with you that most won't succeed in the desktop market or any other market for that matter due to many various reasons. It's not easy.
> 
> It's not going to stop them from starting tho - this forum is evidenced by that and I love them because I get alot of used equipment cheap when they go.
> 
> ...


I marked up in your comments above.


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## engraver99 (Jul 27, 2009)

"But there is a large percentage of long time desktop dye subbers that are home based and remain that way, many make money. You cannot assume ones business model when they post here. You cannot dismiss home based people, they are a significant percentage of all desktop sublimators." 

I don't think I dismissed them - I think I said that the cost of ink from 1 to the other isn't that big of a deal overall for those who don't count on yet it as their financial life support line - it's a building process. I did not say it wouldn't be prudent of anyone starting to define and minimize their costs - that is only smart. BUT then that brings into play a host of other factors such A) setting up a sub system as opposed to buying one ready to go in a box B) The level of Graphic program knowledge and use C) The level of printer and printer profiles set-up and experience D) business knowledge E) copyright and legal matters for existingartwork, and so on. Many starting think its Print - Press - Play. Many find out it isn't.

"A lot of sublimators like myself only look to make money on the side, if you know what you are doing and truly understand the real economics and costing of sublimation it sure beats selling Avon or Amway in terms of time spent vs. additional income."

Agreed - key phrase "know what you are doing" NOT start-ups - Again not disagreeing that if you sustain a level of business that it would not be prudent to move to the lower cost solution - especially if you know what you are doing. I should be doing that but bring another factor into play - laziness or efficency either way I pay a price for using the 3110 as opposed to the brand x ink printer. In Fact - knowing what you are doing from the get goStart-up) would only lead you to start that way - but most I find don't fall into that class. Graphic Program, Business, or Printer Experience wise).


"You are only right in the context of an existing business was my point. "Non-Production" = failure. Your goal in any business should be not to overpay for your raw materials. It will be more obvious as I explain further down."

I disagree I would include start-ups in that category as I have. There have been many start-ups that did not go into production from a running start that have succeeded over time - that's generally how it works. To make a blank statement that non-production = failure is rather insulting to those starting out with a plan and a dream for the home based start-ups. Will most fail? Probably. When I opened my doors, I did not find a line of willing customers ready to hand over their cash and therefor was not in production mode and have not failed. I have been doing this for 5 years now (business not Sub) and increasing all aspects of my business every year - it's an evolvement.


"No, in fact while you dismiss ink costs as being insignificant you are missing something that is obvious". 

Not in my Examples (start-ups and those that fit my profile type) - you are just not as prudent as you could be and that could be based on any number of things such as your experience levels, actually having a plan (would bet 99% don't) - the know what you are doing factor if you will. Face it - if you know how to print and think you can just go buy a 3110, heat press, and blanks and call yourself a business - you are sadly mistaken. It must be built! The most important part is starting and building and again - in my examples - the $10 savings ain't gonna amount to diddly!

"While you may only dismiss the inks casts as costing you a quarter for making a mug that you sell for $12 ... what you are missing is that you don't go out and buy your inks 25 cents at a time. 

You pay for the inks in the Sawgrass desktop world $325 - $620 upfront in one shot. In a start up OR on-going you are buying the inks in some bulk volume, in either SG bags for Epson or pre-filled carts for Ricoh. Forget about pre-filled Epson carts, $4 - $6 a page is a huge ripoff.

For a start-up going the SG route and small Ricoh the ink costs alone are $325 + shipping. This is for a total of 129 mL of inks total all 4 colors.

Outside of SG this gets you a 13 x 19 Epson entry level 4 color printer on sale **and** around 600 mL of inks total for 4 colors.

On an on-going basis for re-order your immediate cost for around 600 mL of "brand x" is $125 for Ricoh 129 mL is $325. 2 hundred dollars immediate savings each and every time you re-order, this is $200 in your pocket now, not divided over a period of time. 

What you really are stating about the ink costs on small items is that it **seems** less painful for a 25 cent ink cost on a $12 mug sale but again I mention you are not buying inks this way, your ink costs are based on a bulk purchase upfront so whatever cost savings you achieve these savings are immediate."

I don't dispute any of that - AGAIN - the key words here are "know what you are doing". For many of those - they Don't. I know - I went thru it. Bought 3rd party sub inks, had 1400 sitting here for 3 yrs decising on wether to do sub. Decided to do it - Horrendous results with ink I used. Profiles didn't work-no consistent prints - a mess UNTIL I talked to you. In the meantime I had the 3110 banging away making money and building this part of the dye sub business. SO AGAIN - I will say it paying a little more to start off and learn and build has it's price and it's not that big.

"Since you must buy inks for the Ricoh at least every 6 months then your bare minimum annual inks costs are $650 dollars, on your $5K a year sales that is over 10% just for inks. Otherwise you risk turning your printer into a doorstop."

Don't know how you can claim this. I buy two sets a year - It takes me about 6 mths to go thru 1 color and about 10 mths to go thru the rest. Some are expired by the end of the second set. I have seen no deterioration in quality from inks that have reached the experation date that are still in use. If they are- I always have a second printer I can goto. For a $525 package of inks, printer, and paper - if you can't get your money back on it - then you are not trying to succeed your business - again either because you don't know how to or your experience level ony let's you get so far. So in answer to your question I did spend $650 the first year but each set of cartridges is not based on 6 months of use as you imply. I only spent $325 on the third set in the second year! So yes my first year ink costs were over 10% - my second year ink costs were under 5%


"If you buy more than 2 cart sets a year then your real ink costs are higher on that amount you mention. If you do less than that then you risk destroying that printer, that may or may not add even more to your real product costs depending on if your printer is still in warranty."

True I often said these start-up printers are throw-aways. If you can't grow your business out of that printer - maybe you shouldn't be in this business. Again I am not denying the cost savings I am simply saying they are not SUPER IMPORTANT if you are in the categories I am referring to which I think most who come here seeking advice ARE.

"True ink costs cannot be accurately determined on a per page basis, you cannot know for certain how much each item costs as you would have to know the % of coverage and the sq. inches."

Agreed 

"The need for an estimation of the per page costs is so you can set up finished item pricing, your real ink costs can only be determined reasonably accurate by knowing how much inks your purchased in some time period, say for 1 year. This is how I know my ink costs, and the fact that I am saving around $200 a month."

You left out the part that you also have to know what you have used or you can't make that determination - you just cant look at what you spent. 

"I don't look at spending a nickle for ink to make a mug vs. a quarter worth of ink to make a mug, I look at real and immediate costs and what it costs me for raw material upfront and what it costs me long term."

I don't look at it that way either _ I price based on my competition and what the market will bear.

"I pose the simple question:

All things being equal ... 

Is it better to save money on a single purchase and get more raw material?

or 

Pay more for a single purchase and get less raw material?"

I would say that answer depends on how fast you can deplete your inventory which basically comes back to "PRODUCTION" - see how that works. Again I will site the example : I can buy a 1000 bag tags for 75 cents and spend $750 or I can spend $100 and get 100 bag tags. Since start-ups and those that fit my profile type don't know how many they will move, It is within my 30+ years experience as a cost accountant and inventory cost accountant and analyst in a multi-million $ mfg environment who brought many start-up products to fruition (production level) can only say It is more prudent to forgo the savings of raw materials than to spend start-up money on large raw material orders that may or may not sell in a reasonable amount of time. leaving you with inventory you don't use or might have to sell at a discount or even a loss if you don't make it in the business. Where's the savings now?

Again-you are adding the "know what you are doing" or a "sustaining production business" factor for all your conclusions and that's where we disagree. I believe most who come here seeking help to start-up don't have that "factor" and those that offer this service as a supplement or adding to build onto their existing business don't have to let ink costs rule their agenda especially if their qualifications are lacking in certain areas and will learn on the job, or they will test their market-if you will. If they have the "factor" like I said and are an existing business - it would be more prudent to start the cheaper way from the getgo. Altho I have this "factor" I still use the 3110 - why - it's easier often - but it's the price I am willing to pay and YES it does effect my bottom line - I am not as financially efficient as I could be. That is the price for my laziness.

I thought I had it and went with 3rd party inks only to see a disaster till I met you and you steered me right. I did not need much direction because I know what I am doing - it was just bad inks I and profiles I started out with. But I knew all the mechanics and theory.

I think I have explained my side thoroughly enough and will not be-labor any more time devoted to this thread. You can believe what you want, but again you are comparing apples to oranges when it comes to "non prodction" start-up environments and those that fit my profile. Otherwise I would agree with everything you say for those whos' livelyhoods already depend on it (Past the start-up phase). As in anything there is a breakeven point where a start-up turns into a full fledged business.

In the beginning starting and building is more important than saving money on quantity purchase discounts especially if you are finding your way and unsure if you could ever use those raws. It is also a little better, in my opinion, to spand a little more if it helps minimize what may be lacking in experience or qualifications. Jumping in this business with little experience in graphic manipulation or printing and template set-ups (as I find most do) -it is better off paying a little more upfront to test the waters, help offset some of the exp. and qualifications you need, than it is to be financially efficient only to find out your experience/qualification levels are not going to allow you to do what you want to realize those savings. I'd rather spend more up front and test the waters while building a business than have a bunch of stuff I saved money on but can't use it because I don't have the business to support the purchase. I'd rather take the other $650 I spent on the tags sitting in inventory and do some advertising and samples to go out and go out in the world to build up my customer base. I guess I could always look at the extras in inventory and tell myself what a good financial planner I am because I reduced my cost by $250 by purchasing in quantity. But that's not how savings in the real mfg. world are achieved when starting up a new product or business unless you have a super hot phenom idea. 

When I first started for this mfg co., I had had to take my purchasing agents down into our 800,000 sq. ft warehouse and show them the warehouse employees throwing their "got a good qty deals" in the dumpster. Then show them mathmatically how "their good deals" cost the company thousand's of dollars and a scrap fee to boot. Yet they thought they were doing a good job. So more is not necessarily better - even at a better price. I am not blaming the purchasers as the company grew from a million $ co. to a $100 million in about 4 years so there was no existing structure in place for them to know better. The more for less $ rule cost the company millions tho.


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## skdave (Apr 11, 2008)

engraver99 said:


> I need 9 shirts I can't get them from Monag for 3 weeks or more - you have them? could you print 6 xl, 3 2xl. Normally I don't send small orders out to print or don't know if you even do small orders. Have sent you a larger order before but don't like to bother production guys with small ones.
> 
> if so message me with a price
> 
> thanks


Kevin I will do it for you tomorrow. E mail the art and I will price it. The price is low. Thanks You.
[email protected]


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## engraver99 (Jul 27, 2009)

Thanks Dave - Gonna want more than the shirts probably. Prob get a couple table cloths and other bigger things to show off since I have been asked a few times about bigger items. Be back at ya shortly.

thanks


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

engraver99 said:


> "But there is a large percentage of long time desktop dye subbers that are home based and remain that way, many make money. You cannot assume ones business model when they post here. You cannot dismiss home based people, they are a significant percentage of all desktop sublimators."
> 
> I don't think I dismissed them - I think I said that the cost of ink from 1 to the other isn't that big of a deal overall for those who don't count on yet it as their financial life support line - it's a building process. I did not say it wouldn't be prudent of anyone starting to define and minimize their costs - that is only smart. BUT then that brings into play a host of other factors such A) setting up a sub system as opposed to buying one ready to go in a box B) The level of Graphic program knowledge and use C) The level of printer and printer profiles set-up and experience D) business knowledge E) copyright and legal matters for existingartwork, and so on. Many starting think its Print - Press - Play. Many find out it isn't.
> 
> ...


Where do I get the $650 minimum annual inks costs? I get that here after reading the horror stories that went on for a long time a while back. _Don't take my word for it, go back and read the dead Ricoh threads here_. Do a search here on "Dead Ricohs" and see what comes up on the first search page. If you are not aware of how one's printing habits effect that printer you should be.

Here is one in particular ... titled *56 different users with DEAD Ricohs & SG Inks*

http://www.t-shirtforums.com/dye-sublimation/t176950.html#post1047905

You're flirting with disaster not keeping fresh inks in that printer. Not all, but most with doorstop Ricohs all had the same in common. 

Not keeping the printer on at all times and letting the inks expire had a huge co-relation to the problem. Once this got established then the occurrence rate of these type failures diminished greatly. You see fewer complaints on this now because many of the ink vendors no longer claim the printer as being able to sit for months idle, which was how the printer was hyped original. 

It's no co-incidence the failures have diminished greatly, it's a question of usage, plain and simple. You can't let those inks expire. The failure mode is this, you are going along just fine and getting good quality prints just like you are describing, then one day you get banding that won't go away, then you keep printing or try head cleans, then boom maybe a blown motherboard and maybe ink seeping out from a cart. 

Your inks are only good for 6 months in that printer. After that you are on borrowed time.

Sooner or later you will have a doorstop if you keep old inks in the printer, once that happens and it is out of warranty then bye bye to the hundred dollars or so of ink needed to fill those long ink lines, the inks remaining in the sealed carts you can't recover cause no way assuming you get a new printer should you put those old expired carts back into a new printer, then you're out $200 for a new printer. 

Then you will find your already way overpriced inks are now costing you an arm and a leg. Many users went through as many as 3 printers till this got resolved. Many with the $1500 Ricohs never even recovered their investment.

If you don't use your inks up in time you will lose it, this is undisputed. So when I say you need to spend at least $650 a year on those inks ignore at your own peril. If you are claiming so many only make a $1000 or even $2000 a year sublimating why even bother if your inks are $650 unless you don't mind playing Russian Roulette with your printer then paying a lot more for their total printing costs after the printer and inks are gone.

Whatever learning curve for business, graphic manipulation, template setups, learning color management, this all has to happen regardless of the inks. None of this happens "out of the box". 

Something I learned a long time ago, Sawgrass cost per page estimates are not real. Sawgrass math doesn't work well for larger substrates, production or otherwise.

Only in sublimation do I hear that consumable costs don't matter. Most of this originated from the vendors making excuses for the monopoly situation.


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## engraver99 (Jul 27, 2009)

I can't go on with this any longer - you missed my whole entire point. It is a risk from the get-go in any start-up! You throw in some money - get some stuff and give it a go. Either you will make it to production mode or you won't. if you don't do it by the first set of inks, or at least pay for your investment, and your printer dies - so be it - you wouldn't make it with an epson printer with more cheaper ink either. More ink at cheaper prices does not make for a successful business. It simply adds to your bottom line. 

If you can't reach production levels by your first set or at least pay for what you put out, wether you could have made a little more or a little less (depending on the ink you use) is irrelevent - you still spent the same amount of money (initial investment) and ended up with the same results-an anchor and some inks and a business called a failure.

On the other hand - if you do make it - you can add a second printer, get your cheaper inks, and enjoy some savings and a bigger bottom line. If the 3110 dies in the meantime - who cares you made your money on it and moved up and onward. It was a risk anyway! It's a cost of doing business and entering a new market. No one gets to play for free! I considered mine disposable the minute I got it. If it wasn't a good fit who cares I took the risk to test the market just like anyone jumping in business. If it didn't work, I willingly took the risk and put up the money to find that out. Nobody is saying to buy more expensive inks until you die or replace that printer with the same thing if it is financially innefficient and you have a sustaining business. That would just be stupid business.

Again, the whole point is STARTING OUT or ADDING TO AN EXISTING BUSINESS, The ink cost savings are minimal at best UNTIL YOU REACH THAT POINT when it makes sense. The point when it makes sense is when it has become a feasable business addition (can support itself with the potential to be profitable) and/or will be an ongoing concern (support itself and be profitable). Then and only then , the importance of the costs you state come into play. *And that should happen with your first set of inks or without a drastic change you are doomed.*

So for start up home business-the main concern should be actually having a business that shows that it can at least support itself and to actually START. If they can successfully start with brand x inks (have the graphic capabilities, working with printer experience, etc) - AWSOME - they are that much ahead of the game. If they need a solution in a box and pay more for ink as their intro into to test the market and as a learning curve, it's NOT the end of the world (Which is my whole point!). If they fail-they are out same amount of $'s-the initial investment. If they make it - yes they make a little less on their first round of inks or until the printer dies at which time they can convert to a new cheaper larger operating package and add to their bottom line when it makes sense - like anyone would do.

The epson printers also have their fair share of problems when not used also, as does any inkjet printer. The dye sub inks are corrosive and I consider the Epsons to be disposable as well. Heck I consider all these desktop printers - no matter the brand to be disposable - they are all made to expire anyway.

I know all about the richo threads and dead printers - knew it before I got 1. Like I said - If it doesn't make it by its first set of inks and it dies from non-use - well you were not going to make it no matter what printer you have. In fact I had my 1400 printer sitting waiting for me to decide if I wanted to dive into it. It sat for 3 years. When I did decide, I still got the 3110 to see what it was all about and to test the feasability of its addition to my product line, as I didn't want to ruin a perfectly good printer that I know would work in my screen printing and photoabrasive parts of the business. I didn't mind taking the risk and ending up with a little less on the bottom line to do this test.

So what can I tell ya.

If you still don't get my point - we can respectfully agree to disagree, but I can't go on about this anymore.I also believe you get out of it what you put in it. If you don't work it-it won't work! I think most and have seen many put their legs up on their desk and claim to be in business-don't work it (for any # of reasons), and are gone shortly there after. In fact I got my DK20 heat press for $50 this way lol. Many think it's easy cause it looks easy.

Have a good one Mr. Parrish

signing off this thread for good - it's been OVER-HIJACKED - sorry Original Poster - hope ya learned something tho!


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## SunState (Mar 5, 2014)

I sell a product for $20 that costs me less than 3 cents in ink on my ricoh 3110. I think $2000 in sales is pretty good for a product I just brought to the market 3 months ago. I had some trouble with the 3110 when it was 6 months old but the warranty replaced it twice. Ricoh, Conde & Sawgrass all went over the top to get me back on my feet.

Now I am at the year and a half mode of business and still growing with my original purchase costs of $225 for the ricoh. I dropped my focus on my original product that had high ink costs but orders in the $3000-4000 amount. You have to be constantly willing to try new things to make it work not just blindly plod forward like the character in Jack London's short story named "A Thousand Dozen"

It was a long road here and constantly re-evaluating what I was doing and evolving my product to make it work (spreadsheets are your friend) If you don't know all your costs and true costs, you can fail quickly. Knowing how to market your product and bring in sales is the other variable that can make or break you.

I see 3 ways to cut ink costs:

1. Buy cheaper inks if you feel you understand the sublimation technology enough not to make a bad choice. Vendor info on this seems to be held close to the chest by the ones who use it and I don't see a ton of peer reviews showing it is a good choice for entry level sublimators.

2. Increase the price of your product if the market will bear it. My original product is now selling for 4x the original price I had it at and I an going up again at my next show in a week. So ink costs are one of the 
cheaper costs in it's manufacturing overhead.

3. Go to a wide format printer if your sales warrant the expense and maintenance of such a cash outlay. (again....know your margins)

I don't need a bigger printer or cheaper inks. I manipulated other variables.

Also Conde gives me great support and got me to where I didn't have to call them every day with silly little questions. David the owner has called or e-mailed me personally when tech support was unavailable due to them being busy with other calls or his expertise was needed. I don't know how many times Vicki helped me over the weekend. Their patience when I was a noob was above and beyond the call of duty!

It all goes back to margins. If you don't know your margins and you are using a lot of ink you need to cut costs somewhere or you will probably fail.


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## skdave (Apr 11, 2008)

SunState said:


> I sell a product for $20 that costs me less than 3 cents in ink on my ricoh 3110. I think $2000 in sales is pretty good for a product I just brought to the market 3 months ago. I had some trouble with the 3110 when it was 6 months old but the warranty replaced it twice. Ricoh, Conde & Sawgrass all went over the top to get me back on my feet.
> 
> Now I am at the year and a half mode of business and still growing with my original purchase costs of $225 for the ricoh. I dropped my focus on my original product that had high ink costs but orders in the $3000-4000 amount. You have to be constantly willing to try new things to make it work not just blindly plod forward like the character in Jack London's short story named "A Thousand Dozen"
> 
> ...


$#4 Job out the printing.


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## ChemicaUS (Dec 13, 2013)

engraver99 said:


> the other reason I don't use the cheaper printer is I keep my 13x19 paper in that and am too lazy to change it to do the small stuff.


LOL. That's refreshing honesty, Kevin.
BTW, did you guys know you can use a metallic heat transfer film to spice up those sublimated Tees. It adds only a few cents extra cost but lots of added value for the customer... and that means extra margin.


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## skdave (Apr 11, 2008)

ChemicaUS said:


> LOL. That's refreshing honesty, Kevin.
> BTW, did you guys know you can use a metallic heat transfer film to spice up those sublimated Tees. It adds only a few cents extra cost but lots of added value for the customer... and that means extra margin.


Tell me about the metallic transfer.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

engraver99 said:


> I can't go on with this any longer - you missed my whole entire point. It is a risk from the get-go in any start-up! You throw in some money - get some stuff and give it a go. Either you will make it to production mode or you won't. if you don't do it by the first set of inks, or at least pay for your investment, and your printer dies - so be it - you wouldn't make it with an epson printer with more cheaper ink either. More ink at cheaper prices does not make for a successful business. It simply adds to your bottom line.
> 
> If you can't reach production levels by your first set or at least pay for what you put out, wether you could have made a little more or a little less (depending on the ink you use) is irrelevent - you still spent the same amount of money (initial investment) and ended up with the same results-an anchor and some inks and a business called a failure.
> 
> ...


I made some mark-ups above. Ink costs is the topic, when your printer dies and you loses it's ink in the ink lines and in the cart it adds to the ink costs. I am not off-topic.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

SunState said:


> I sell a product for $20 that costs me less than 3 cents in ink on my ricoh 3110. I think $2000 in sales is pretty good for a product I just brought to the market 3 months ago. I had some trouble with the 3110 when it was 6 months old but the warranty replaced it twice. Ricoh, Conde & Sawgrass all went over the top to get me back on my feet.
> 
> Now I am at the year and a half mode of business and still growing with my original purchase costs of $225 for the ricoh. I dropped my focus on my original product that had high ink costs but orders in the $3000-4000 amount. You have to be constantly willing to try new things to make it work not just blindly plod forward like the character in Jack London's short story named "A Thousand Dozen"
> 
> ...


I'm curious why you would drop your focus on the product with high ink costs but orders in the $3000-4000 amount?

Making money is making money, find a way to make this work better. This is what I call "happy agony".

Are these made "live" while people wait? If not why not get transfers from SKDave for this if other more economical ink solutions have you spooked?

Margins can be misleading, you are marking up product way up from where you started (4X). This may be OK but I suspect that if you are able to get this price this has good demand but I suspect you can make much more $ per hour doing more volume but at a lower margin if you understand Price Elasticity. Sounds like to me you got a good thing going on with that new product. This can be tricky but I looked at this very carefully when I did live retail. If you are not in a fixed location (an event for example) it is easier to experiment.

http://www.marketingexperiments.com/improving-website-conversion/finding-ideal-price-points.html

From the summary ...

"Test a variety of prices to find the point that will maximize your total long term profit. Keep testing until you find the price point above which Net Profit continues to decline."

I have several items I wholesale to local photographers and artists and they mark up their items with their art on it and make money. I am home based now but what I find more important is setting lower prices in some case and getting more net overall from increased volume. My formula is based on how much I make in a hour and long term recurring sales. This is why I cringe when people say ink costs don't matter. I can set lower prices on high ink usage products as long as my ink costs are contained, I end up with more net based on a lower margin and more volume sales. In fact some of my more lucrative business that contributes larger to my net would not be possible paying $2.50 per mL for inks.


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## SunState (Mar 5, 2014)

Why would I want to lower the price to get more sales and then have to do more work at lower pay? Labor has a cost too. You have to calculate that in as well unless you want to work for free. I sure don't.

I would rather work smarter than harder.


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## skdave (Apr 11, 2008)

SunState said:


> Why would I want to lower the price to get more sales and then have to do more work at lower pay? Labor has a cost too. You have to calculate that in as well unless you want to work for free. I sure don't.
> 
> I would rather work smarter than harder.


Wal Mart sells cheap with huge volume. 

It's all about your approach to running a BIZ.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

SunState said:


> Why would I want to lower the price to get more sales and then have to do more work at lower pay? Labor has a cost too. You have to calculate that in as well unless you want to work for free. I sure don't.
> 
> I would rather work smarter than harder.


I'm not clear if you are printing on demand while people wait or not. 

How much actual labor do you do personally and how much of the actual labor is done with your equipment, ... print time dwell time?

You have to scale your output. What is maximum units per hour with your current setup?

Unless it takes most of your time making a graphic in a PC before you can proceed, like you composing something from scratch, that may be your only real bottleneck. Items with long dwell time you add another press, items with a long print time you add a printer. Or both. Get a helper if needed.

When I did live retail in a weekend market I was using my chromakey photo setup and doing photo novelty items. One example I was pricing pigment transfer tshirts at $16 per shirt. I had decent traffic going by and I had some decent sales, but I still had a lot of idle time.

My margins were really good, my tshirt was $1.25, a buck for a transfer, and 50 cents in ink. $16 - $2.75 = $13.25. Of course I had overhead and my labor. I had other photo novelty sublimation items not just tshirts.  

But I had a lot of dead time. My time to make a tshirt was about 5 minutes, take the photo, format it in the computer, print, place and dwell etc. so _theoretically_ I could make $13.75 x 12 = $165 an hour just on that item alone. But I was no where near my theoretical number. One day I decide to have a "sale", I priced the tshirts at $12 each and my sales was very near doubling. My margin was reduced but my net per hour went up maybe $18 per hour average.

So I lowered pricing across the board on-going. During peak times I had a bottleneck due to print and dwell times, so I added a printer and another heat press. During holidays Christmas, Mother Fathers day, Valentines day I had to have a helper.

Now home based my net per is hour is $40 - $50 part time. I work maybe 8-10 hours a week outside my regular job. I don't have traffic going by so most of my stuff is wholesale for others to resell. I don't look just at margins, I look at how much money net I can make per hour.

SKDave sells transfers 16x20 print area for a buck no mins. How can that be possible one might ask? What do you think his margin per piece is considering labor as well? Of course this isn't live retail, but is he "working smarter than harder? I recall he drives to his work in a Tesla.

I bet Dave understands price elasticity.


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## SunState (Mar 5, 2014)

The last show I had people 5 deep on a few occasions waiting to make a purchase, but usually it is one or 2 at a time and I get no down time at all. I don't need price elasticity......I need higher prices so I don't have to work so hard.


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## skdave (Apr 11, 2008)

SunState said:


> The last show I had people 5 deep on a few occasions waiting to make a purchase, but usually it is one or 2 at a time and I get no down time at all. I don't need price elasticity......I need higher prices so I don't have to work so hard.


Sounds like a short, long term plan. Good luck.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

SunState said:


> The last show I had people 5 deep on a few occasions waiting to make a purchase, but usually it is one or 2 at a time and I get no down time at all. I don't need price elasticity......I need higher prices so I don't have to work so hard.


Sounds like your items are personalized, if you don't have to use much computer time then you can always scale your output if your pricing is right. Pricing too high decreases your net volume capability.

I did a lot of events over the years, often my pricing was OK but I just couldn't keep up with the demand at events with large crowds. The problem in doing POD customization it is hard to get a helper that can handle the PC graphics end.

But actually you did need price elasticity, you were too low in your prices, it's not always lower your prices to hit a larger volume net, if your demand was exceeding your capability then you move prices up to increase your net since your capacity was max out.


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## ChemicaUS (Dec 13, 2013)

skdave said:


> Tell me about the metallic transfer.


Dave,
It's a heat transfer film, aka T-Shirt vinyl with metal flake in the face film. There are actually three options: SuperMetallic which is a very thin film that looks like chrome, Galaxy, a soft PU film with a metal flake appearance, and the new Bling Bling ultrametallic film which is a heavier product.

Any of them can be used with a vinyl cutter and designed to add a metallic accent to a sublimated design. Here's one we made up for last week's NBM Arlington trade show. 
The base is a sublimated image made using the RICOH SG 3110DN and Sawgrass SubliJet-R ink. The blue basketball is cut from Galaxy and heat applied over the sublimated image. The Galaxy is only about 3" x 3" so you're talking about roughly 25 - 50¢ worth of added material cost.
I designed it in SAI software using the Design Editor to separate the print and cut layers. The same could be done in CorelDRAW or Illustrator.

It was quite a hit at the show.


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## SunState (Mar 5, 2014)

My demands were not exceeding my capacity at all. I find it strange that the point I was making about my experiences with ink prices and how they can be extremely relevant or quite insignificant, based on a products profit margins, has been ignored, but I'm being told I have no idea how to price a product from people who have no idea what I am selling.

Anyway, I have meticulously calculated the price of ink per square inch from a Ricoh 3110, which was the OP's question, and it is a penny per square inch.


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## pisquee (Jan 8, 2012)

A lot of the posts about ink costs in this thread, those siding against using bulk inks seem to be based on the premise that you have to buy in a substantial quantity to see any meaningful savings. This is just not true, you can get a whole litre of wide format ink for around the price that Sawgrass will charge you for around 100ml, or you can find sellers who are decanting the litres into smaller bottles and selling them for a very good price.
The other issue which seemed to only be touched on, is that one of the most important things in financial terms is not your annual turnover, or even profit, but cash flow - this is not only true for businesses but familes. If you haven't got cash in the bank, and coming in regularly enough, then you are dead in the water. Having to fork out the prices Sawgrass are asking for a set of ink can definitely be a problem for a start-up business, and spending the same amount of money to buy a set of litres or buying cheaper 100ml decanted inks both offer better alternatives.


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## paintersspouse (Jul 26, 2012)

pisquee said:


> A lot of the posts about ink costs in this thread, those siding against using bulk inks seem to be based on the premise that you have to buy in a substantial quantity to see any meaningful savings. This is just not true, you can get a whole litre of wide format ink for around the price that Sawgrass will charge you for around 100ml, or you can find sellers who are decanting the litres into smaller bottles and selling them for a very good price.
> The other issue which seemed to only be touched on, is that one of the most important things in financial terms is not your annual turnover, or even profit, but cash flow - this is not only true for businesses but familes. If you haven't got cash in the bank, and coming in regularly enough, then you are dead in the water. Having to fork out the prices Sawgrass are asking for a set of ink can definitely be a problem for a start-up business, and spending the same amount of money to buy a set of litres or buying cheaper 100ml decanted inks both offer better alternatives.


I agree. I can put that extra money into blanks.

Just because I have cheaper ink costs does not mean my labor costs change. It just means I either make more profit.


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## skdave (Apr 11, 2008)

ChemicaUS said:


> Dave,
> It's a heat transfer film, aka T-Shirt vinyl with metal flake in the face film. There are actually three options: SuperMetallic which is a very thin film that looks like chrome, Galaxy, a soft PU film with a metal flake appearance, and the new Bling Bling ultrametallic film which is a heavier product.
> 
> Any of them can be used with a vinyl cutter and designed to add a metallic accent to a sublimated design. Here's one we made up for last week's NBM Arlington trade show.
> ...


I want to buy some and try it. Do you sell it?
Please e mail me. [email protected]


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

SunState said:


> My demands were not exceeding my capacity at all.
> 
> Huh?
> 
> ...


I marked up above.


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## ChemicaUS (Dec 13, 2013)

skdave said:


> I want to buy some and try it. Do you sell it?
> Please e mail me. [email protected]


Dave, SignWarehouse has the Galaxy and Bling Bling in stock. If you prefer another vendor, let me know and we'll try to connect you with someone in your area.
Please let me know how you like it. 
And *Thanks.*


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## skdave (Apr 11, 2008)

Thank you for the info


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## SunState (Mar 5, 2014)

mgparrish said:


> _Only thing I can figure is if you are able to mark up something that huge amount then at your original prices you were nearly giving away the items it would seem._


wrong again, but that is what you get for assuming. My original price was just a few bucks more than the price everyone is selling alike tem on the internet. My graphics are far superior to what is out there and that is what is driving demand.

But I am sure you will find something wrong with what I said. So like the other person that bowed out of this thread after getting tired of your argumentative ways........I will do the same.


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

SunState said:


> wrong again, but that is what you get for assuming. My original price was just a few bucks more than the price everyone is selling alike tem on the internet. My graphics are far superior to what is out there and that is what is driving demand.
> 
> But I am sure you will find something wrong with what I said. So like the other person that bowed out of this thread after getting tired of your argumentative ways........I will do the same.


Not wrong ... you still didn't know your pricing, you marked up something 4X. 

Perhaps your graphics are that good, but you were way way off in the beginning. You didn't know the value of your product.

Sorry if I had to assume but you act as though you have some hot secret item so you gave little details. Except "_I sell a product for $20 that costs me less than 3 cents in ink on my ricoh 3110." _If you marked that up 4X then you were starting at 5 bucks? Who sells anything other than maybe a small Unisub or similar item on the internet for 5 bucks for a "one up".


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## SunState (Mar 5, 2014)

LOL! You are really confrontational and you can't read since I have spoke about having 2 products in my posts.

My first product was the one I started at the price others sell it for and found it I could sell it for more so I have been increasing it as I went. Last show I charged $40 and this next show I will check out sales at $50. That product uses .80 cents of ink on the Ricoh. If I didn't have the ability to charge more on the price I would have had to cut my costs on the inks to have better margins.

My second product started a few dollars higher than my competition since most change $12 and I started at $15. Since then I went to $20 and sales were not effected.

And yes, I do have a "hot secret item" but if I told you why I have high sales it wouldn't be a "hot secret item" anymore!!!


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## Grovian (May 10, 2011)

oh come on whats the hot secret Item lol!!! I am dying to know!

I dont think i could affect your sales way up here in the great white north!


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## mgparrish (Jul 9, 2005)

SunState said:


> LOL! You are really confrontational and you can't read since I have spoke about having 2 products in my posts.
> 
> My first product was the one I started at the price others sell it for and found it I could sell it for more so I have been increasing it as I went. Last show I charged $40 and this next show I will check out sales at $50. That product uses .80 cents of ink on the Ricoh. If I didn't have the ability to charge more on the price I would have had to cut my costs on the inks to have better margins.
> 
> ...


Ok you were still way way off in your pricing for the item described " Last show I charged $40 and this next show I will check out sales at $50." in that case you started at $10 and then at 4X $40 and you were not talking about the $20 item. 

So I missed exactly which item was the 4X markup, doesn't change my point. 

And if you had read my comments and the link I posted you would see _you were just being argumentative_ and your statement was wrong. My point is that Price Elasticity works 2 directions, and you argue you didn't need such a thing, but in fact you did need such a thing. 

"The last show I had people 5 deep on a few occasions waiting to make a purchase, but usually it is one or 2 at a time and I get no down time at all. I don't need price elasticity......I need higher prices so I don't have to work so hard.".

I was just making the point initially that at some point your net sales are impacted pricing too high or too low. It is you that is argumentative. It was meant to be helpful to you and others reading this. Pricing is tough and it does involve some trial and error.

I don't see how you can argue back against ...

"Test a variety of prices to find the point that will maximize your total long term profit. Keep testing until you find the price point above which Net Profit continues to decline."

or 

claim your production is meeting demand when you have a cue. _It could be your production can't be optimized much more, so in that case it is what is._ But you argue that you are meeting your demand. I know for a fact from selling live a cue = walk-aways.


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## Chopper (Aug 10, 2007)

If I purchase the package listed below... How well with the transfer turn out on dark tees? We mainly print 100% cotton, so im looking for ways to cut overhead costs of outsourcing. I need to print transfers for short runs no matter tee color. Suggestions?

SG 3110DN ChromaBlast R - Basic Package - Sign Supplies and Equipment


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## ChemicaUS (Dec 13, 2013)

Chopper said:


> If I purchase the package listed below... How well with the transfer turn out on dark tees? We mainly print 100% cotton, so im looking for ways to cut overhead costs of outsourcing. I need to print transfers for short runs no matter tee color. Suggestions?
> 
> SG 3110DN ChromaBlast R - Basic Package - Sign Supplies and Equipment


Not well. Those technologies (ChromaBlast and sublimation) are direct transfers of ink or dye to the fabric. As such, they only work correctly on white, light gray or pastel garments. 

If you want to decorate dark cotton shirts, you'll need a T-shirt vinyl like HotMark, or a printable film that covers the fabric. Most such films are designed to work with solvent, Latex inkjet printers because of their superior durability in laundering, but there are some inexpensive inkjet papers that will work as well.

Here you go.


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## Chopper (Aug 10, 2007)

Thank you for the advice and link!!!


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