# Issue with a non paying client. I have the shirts...



## ickywear (Jul 16, 2010)

I have a problem that is not unique but I would sure like to hear the opinion of some others in the biz...

SO...
A (B)Buyer ordered some shirts with art from a local (A)Artist known to both the (B)Buyer and myself.

The Buyer ordered 3 designs.... Agreed to Pay 50% up front and 50% in 60 days. (first and last time)

I was through printing the first 2 designs when I smelled a rat.
I stopped production and contacted the buyer.
I re-worked the invoice and told him that I needed the 1st 50% ASAP.

After 6-7 weeks of excuses I am over it and press the point.
I tell him I have a few options to relive him of this debt.
1- I can take and sell them myself.
2- I have a person interested in buying the entire batch at the invoice face value.

He responds with a promise to be in touch the next day.
3 days later, after obtaining permission from the (A)Artist, I make plans to sell the shirts and post an announcement on FB. I list the location of the sale and the artist name.

*** I hope you can follow this  thanks for the time****

The same day as the FB post goes up i get a harsh MSG from the buyer telling me that I am not to speak to the artist ever again.
He continues to say that he has a royalty contract with the artist for exclusive use of the images. The shirts must be sold under his brand name and me posting the artist name is in violation of that contract.

we speak again the next day, he agrees that I can sell the shirts but under his BRAND Name, HE sets the price and I must send him any $$$ in excess of the invoice amount.

Given the facts that I paid for the blanks, I did the color seps and made the screens, I Printed and packaged the shirts AND I was going to drive an hour into the city and spend 5-6 hours selling them. I told said NO WAY.

Now he gets all in tuft and says I will now I should toss them in the trash and eat it, that if he gets word that I sell even one shirt he will sue me... (cant pay his bill let alone pay for a lawsuit)

He makes a few personal threats and I cut the conversation off, I tell him that i am DONE. I OWN the shirts and he can contact me via his Lawyer.


*** time for a breather***

I have spoken with the artist, he says that he did have a discussion with the buyer about it months ago...
The reached an agreement but the buyer never got back to him with the contract. He has never signed any contract with the buyer. They have only spoken on FB and have never met in person.

I have the artist permission to sell the shirts with his art, and I intend to do just that unless I can be shown a reason not to. I have spoke with my most trusted business partners and that all agree "Screw that guy".....

I want to stand strong for my company and not get pushed around....

What do you think?


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## missswissinc (Feb 21, 2012)

sounds like your in the clear. unless both you and the artist signed any contract then your free to do whatever you want to do. I highly doubt the guy will take you or the other person to court. costs money and like I said before without a signed contract that guy wont have a leg to stand on in any court of law. I think he figured out that you smelled a rat and wanted to get himself out of it.


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## kimura-mma (Jul 26, 2008)

If he agreed to pay 50% up front, why did you start printing the first two designs before he paid the deposit?


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## AnonBri (Jun 20, 2012)

I'd say you can sell the shirts, a person can only completely own an artists work if the artist sold the rights to it. That's usually expensive. Don't think this guy would have done so.

I never start an order without at least 50% upfront already paid  might consider doing so in the future after this!


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## ickywear (Jul 16, 2010)

I know I screwed up, that's clear.
I typically do get 50% before ordering blanks.
This was some one I trusted and that's a lesson learned.


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## kimura-mma (Jul 26, 2008)

You printed the artwork without permission. If the buyer had a legit agreement with the artist, he would have a basis for legal action. Without the agreement, he probably can't do much. Going behind the buyers back and discussing the situation with the artist wasn't the best way to handle things. I know you were just protecting your loss at that point, but it was your own mistake that led to all this. The buyer lost your trust by not paying the deposit. But you are risking your reputation by treating a clients artwork as your own.


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## ickywear (Jul 16, 2010)

The known artist has stated that he did never agreed to sell the art. He did consider a royalty agreement at one point but that was never completed. If the buyer never completed an agreement with the artist I never needed his permission.

In fact the artist approached me, asking for advice after receiving this:

""Uh, you and I need to talk. We have a verbal contract as of right now, and if you talk to Adam Hand again, I will have a lawsuit on your door so ****ing fast you won't have time to blink. You will get your $1.75 per shirt like we talked about, and I am currently working on the distribution. You can leave it at that. We have a verbal contract, and do not forget it. My time and effort in putting this deal and together amounts to more than you can possibly make off these shirts so I suggest you never talk to him again, and direct him to talk to me if he contacts you. Adam now understands, and Jose, don't **** with me again. Lombino Martino from Seattle, WA is my Lawyers, and I'm a prepaid client.""


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## gotshirts2ink (Nov 12, 2009)

Never order or start any printing without money in hand 20%, 50% 100% whatever Never
but it sounds like your stuck like chuck


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## TYGERON (Apr 26, 2009)

Well sounds like you've learned a valuable lesson of how not to handle business so no need for me to reiterate.

I will anyway...

First rule: You will get jacked at some point in business
Rule 2: You can't change rule #1
Rule 3: Do everything you can to minimize rule #1

NEVER pull a squeegee, without some cash! This "buyer" sounds like some nickel-and-dime clown hustler looking to make a buck with as little (or no) investment up front. You don't walk out on a limb with someone else unless you're solid and on one accord with whomever it is...meaning you're willing to take a chance along with them that the limb may snap and you both plummet to the sharp jagged rocks below.
The work you've done so far is yours, _but not to just do as you please._ The artist and whatever agreement he has with the "buyer" and the rights to reproduce and profit from the artist's work is the issue. You're just the hapless dupe caught up in the mix and your issue with possible compensation is with the buyer not the artist. If the artist says go ahead, sell the shirts, and the buyer can actually establish that there was some kind of binding ageement with the artist, then it can get more icky...uh, I mean sticky and you're hit. Personally I believe an agreement is only worth as much as the money in my hand, but verbal agreements can stand. Not worth getting in the middle and taking a chance. 
Step away. Take the loss. Know better next time. 

And embrace Rule #3


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## DivineBling (Sep 14, 2010)

Ty, you forgot the all-important Rule #4 - Bling makes everything better 

Adam, I'm sorry you're going through this. I've been screwed over a few times and it's always by people I didn't expect it from. 
I think the safest thing to do is to try to recoup your out of pocket expenses from the buyer. It might seem like the right thing to do by going to the artist, but that's not the kind of reputation you want for your business. You admitted that you know you were at fault for not collecting the 50% upfront and you prematurely started printing the shirts. It's an expensive lesson, but not one that you're likely to repeat EVER AGAIN, right?

I have some shirts sitting here that I made but customers never paid for them. I'm certainly not going to try to sell them because they're custom designs.

I hope this works out for you!


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## TYGERON (Apr 26, 2009)

Blame it on the heat, testosterone, bad judgement or male ego, but at some point I'd let the "buyer" know that I'm not the one to "F" with and that he got off easy this time speaking to me disrespectfully and making threats and if he feels so inclined in the future to do so again, we can handle things East Coast style...


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## TYGERON (Apr 26, 2009)

DivineBling said:


> Ty, you forgot the all-important Rule #4 - Bling makes everything better


Dang it, Stephanie!

Just when I'm trying to play hardcore, you come along and soften me up .


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## PositiveDave (Dec 1, 2008)

We have a line in our T&C that says that we can recover monies owed by clients by selling their goods. I have never used it, never will, but it means that we have a bargaining chip.


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## JeridHill (Feb 8, 2006)

In all that, I'm not sure of something, I tried reading it again, but didn't really see this.

Is the artwork in discussion the artist's original work, or is it art that the Buyer hired the Artist to create? If the Artist was hired to create this artwork for the Buyer, then there is a different dimension to this and could cause some more issues. If it's the artist's original artwork and the Buyer wanted to put it on a shirt and sell the product without actually signing contracts and paying the Artist anything, then I highly doubt he has a leg to stand on in court. There are unknown details that make this a not so cut and dry case.


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## ickywear (Jul 16, 2010)

Thanks for all the feed back folks!

The art is original art that was done independent of the "buyer".


As far as my next step...

I will find out if I can "legally" sell the shirt. i want to know for the future as well.
I don't believe that he has any contract or binding agreement on the art. I think he is just that a dead beat trying to make some easy $. Had he paid the deposit and taken delivery he would have never paid the 2nd half. Lesson learned I will take the hit.


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## DivineBling (Sep 14, 2010)

Let us know what happens!


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## OSSKOBRET (Sep 17, 2011)

Ilike the east coast method .... it works the same on the west coast 
tell that guy to beat it and recoup what monies you can


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## JeridHill (Feb 8, 2006)

ickywear said:


> The art is original art that was done independent of the "buyer".


If this is the case, then the artist owns all the rights, regardless of their verbal agreement. If no money exchanges took place, then the "wannabe" buyer, doesn't have a leg to stand on.



> I will find out if I can "legally" sell the shirt. i want to know for the future as well.


I would think this would be up to the artist, since he is the rightful owner of the artwork.

Now remember, I'm not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV, so I wouldn't take my word for it. You may want to consult someone who is knowledgeable in this department, like a real lawyer! I would think most in this case would give you free advice, especially the ones that like to espouse their knowledge on the radio.


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## missswissinc (Feb 21, 2012)

after reading the comments the guy said about well we have a VERBAL agreement and not a WRITTEN one well then I hate to say this again but the guy don't have a leg to stand on unless he can show in a court of law a payment to either party. so far it sounds like good guys 2 jack arse 0. All that guy is doing is talking tough. 

believe me we had a girl and believe me even though she was a grown woman she acted like a child. she tried to take us to court for work she did for us. now mind you no money changed hands. her husband was a lawyer for some group and said he would take us to small claims court. well we kept telling them you will get paid once we get back the files you were given and believe me she did a switch on us. the original files were all eps formated. well once we gave them payment she gave us all jpg's of the stuff. well we have decided from here on in that if we give something to somebody to do that they will sign a contract stating that once payment has been given we request ALL FILES that were given to you be returned back to us as is. So if we gave you a eps logo then the logo will be returned to us as a eps logo not a jpg. hard lesson. also the guy didn't have two nickels to rub together. we found out with our software for our mailing business that she was the one who had the apt in her name and not as a couple. go figure


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## Fenrir (Mar 13, 2012)

People watch Judge Judy and think that verbal agreements are legally binding. While it does depend on each jurisdiction, this is generally not how law works. Real judges are required to go by law, and not "I don't like this person" and even if somebody _is_ morally in the wrong if the law is on their side then that's how rulings are supposed to be made. Of course, not all judges are fair but even the bad ones manage to twist the law so it at least stands on one legal leg, rather than "You're not smarter than me, I don't believe that you didn't have verbal agreement, therefore you lose".

You are, of course, still best discussing all this with someone with an actual legal background.


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## LadyKnife (Jun 4, 2012)

I agree with pretty much everything kimura-mma said.

We occasionally run into issues with customers attempting to print designs that we have a sneaking suspicion aren't their own. Low resolution screen caps are usually the first hint of trouble. If the artwork is original or they've paid for it, they'll have the raw files.

I recommend honesty as the best policy, but not necessarily confrontation. Simply asking, "Would you mind providing proof of licensing for this image?" is enough to end the issue. Customers with licensing agreements never question this, and provide documentation immediately. Customers who don't have licensing tend to wander away before an estimate is even drawn up.


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